Music.
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 82 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I am your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, host of the Virtual Couch podcast,
and I just encourage you to go to the link tree section in the show notes and you can find out about
the upcoming Magnetic Marriage reboot.
There's a Magnetic Marriage workshop, there's a Murder on the Couch podcast,
there's a Waking Up to Narcissism question and answer premium podcast,
but let's get to today's topic.
And before I even get too deep into what I'm gonna talk about today.
Let's dive into a fascinating topic that will get us to today's main question about change.
So let's start by talking about something I really enjoy. It's this, well, let me ask you a question first.
How long do you think that it takes to create a new habit or break an old habit?
Okay, I will pause. And okay, be honest. Did any of you think 21 days or three weeks?
And if so, that's perfectly fine. That is one of the most common pop psychology myths
on the planet, and as a mental health professional, I really think it actually does far more harm
than actually good. Why?
Because the number of people that truly see growth and change within a three-week timeframe is extremely small.
And so it becomes another way that you get to beat yourself up.
You know, I'm gonna start running every day, and as a runner myself for well over 30 years now,
I will tell you the first three weeks of running absolutely stink.
If you haven't been running, you're sore, you get shin splints, you become hungrier,
so you might actually put on a few pounds.
So by 21 days in, many people let me know that they must not be a runner or an exerciser period
and they may hunker down in the I'll never change bunker.
So what is the deal with the myth of it takes 21 days to form a new habit?
Have you ever wondered where that came from?
Well, let me help unravel that mystery because that is gonna play into
what we're gonna talk about today again, change.
So the 21 day idea can be traced back to a gentleman by the name of Dr. Maxwell Maltz.
And Maltz began his career as a plastic surgeon before switching gears to psychology,
and from his observations, he proposed that people needed roughly three weeks
to adjust to certain change, like looking at a new nose or other features post-plastic surgery,
or living without a limb after an amputation, or settling into a new house after a move.
So there's a catch. Malz was not leaning on hard science for these observations.
He was basing them on what his patients reported back to him.
Plus, let's be real, none of these scenarios are really about breaking bad habits.
So what Maltz was describing is habituation, which is us getting used to new things.
And while it might seem similar to personal change, they are not quite the change, they aren't the same,
because habituation is where you almost have to settle in and even some might argue, you just have to say,
this is my lot in life and your whole body and brain just says, well, this is what we're gonna do,
so settle in even if I don't like it or if I'm not very happy about it.
But now, kicking a bad habit usually requires consistent, intentional effort.
So that is a whole different ballgame to just accepting a change that you feel like you
can't control, like losing a limb, or a change that you've actively sought, like plastic
surgery. And here's the kicker.
With habits, there's always an element of choice.
So you stay up late binge-watching a new series because, yeah, it's become a habit, but you
do have the power to switch off the TV and hit the sack earlier.
Now I bet you're thinking, okay, so how long does it really take to break a habit?
Well, unfortunately, there is no one-size-fits-all answer because it depends on a whole lot of
factors like how long you've been stuck with the habit, or whether the habit's become
an integral part of your life, or the rewards that you're getting from the habit, whether
it's social or physical or emotional, or if there are other behaviors that support the habit.
And lest we not forget, your motivation to kick the habit, in the world of acceptance
and commitment therapy, there's a very deep concept surrounding what are called socially
compliant goals, or things that you think you're supposed to do, but here's the deal.
If you don't really care or want to do it, whatever it is, but you think you're supposed to,
or you'll let other people down if you don't do it, well, your motivation will be weak and ineffective
because whatever it is that you don't really care much about will absolutely go against your very own process
of becoming and of being.
So I personally think that that is a huge reason behind why change can be even more difficult
because not only do we have the wrong info about how long it takes,
but you have to want it to begin with.
So, let's say you love grabbing food with friends, it's not just about the food, but
also about the camaraderie. So, quitting might be tough unless you find another way to hang out with your friends.
And if one of your friends is that guy who has an eight-pack of abs and he doesn't do
anything for it and he eats all of the fried foods and all the cookies and full-sugared
sodas, then you're probably going to feel even worse.
Or here's another real scenario. Every day after work, you pass by your favorite restaurant on your way home and despite vowing
to cook at home more and you've bought the groceries and all those things, maybe you've
you've been tracking your calories, the tantalizing aroma of that restaurant is wafting into your
nose holes and that might just convince you to grab takeout.
But it's just one more time.
This is the last time as you pull into that drive-thru and in that very moment, guess what?
You honest to goodness mean it. You believe it because that will help you justify why you're doing it right then, that
this is the last time, well, until the next time. But then that will be the last time and if you can just get three weeks of not going
to that drive-thru together, well, then you'll never want to do it again.
So see how maddening this can become.
So back to the million dollar question. And sorry, I don't think you could maybe hear the pause there.
But here's what ADHD looks like in real time. This is just fun.
I couldn't help myself and I had to go look up the origin of the phrase million dollar question.
And it was a bit unclear of when it started. But there's a lot of info on the 1950s game show, the $64,000 question, which apparently
seemed like an insane amount of money at the time.
So I plug $64,000 into an inflation calculator, expecting to be blown away, but $64,000 in
1950 is now the equivalent to $804,873.22.
So the $804,873.22 question is, how long does it take to form a new habit?
So, a 2012 study suggests a more realistic timeline could be anywhere from around 10
weeks, which is about 2.5 months, but remember, this varies from person to person.
Another study from 2009 indicated it could take anywhere from 18 to a whopping 254 days,
again depending on your motivation and what the habit was.
And in that study, they followed 96 adults trying to change a specific behavior, and
while one apparent rock star managed to form the new habit in just 18 days according to
the criteria they had, the rest needed more time. So on average, it took them about 66
days for the new behavior to become somewhat second nature. So there you have it. There
is no magic 21 day rule to breaking or forming habits. It is a process and like anything
worthwhile it takes time and you have to keep going and remember it's progress, not perfection.
So this plays into the question that is sort of the muse for today's episode. So I want
to share a concept that comes from many of the emails that I receive and I think it really
underscores the the core question that many listeners grapple with in waking up
to the emotional immaturity in their relationships. And let's say that they
want it to change. They've wanted this to change for a long long time. So this
brings us back to our question, why is it so hard to stay intentional rather than
being reactive? And I've tried for now more than 21 days. So this is something
we're gonna dig deeper into. And just a heads up, again, if we're talking about
change in the relationship where there has maybe been 20 years of not being
aware of what we didn't know, it will definitely take far more than 21 days.
But what if I were to tell you that it takes or could take possibly years?
That can be a tough selling point.
But I think a lot of those same concepts and principles apply that is the change
something that you truly are open to or interested in, or has so much time passed
that while you may tell yourself that you really want that change, is your desire
for the change more of a socially compliant goal, something that you think that you're supposed to want?
And if so, are you showing up to be the best version of yourself for even your spouse, who you are saying, I won't change or for your kids or for yourself?
And I talk often about a concept that I've absolutely oversimplified that I borrowed from Rick Hansen's book, The Buddha's Brain, the practical neuroscience of love, happiness and wisdom.
Because in the book, he talks about a path of practice.
He talks about three processes, being with whatever arises, working with the tendencies
of the mind to transform them, and taking refuge in the ground of being.
All these practices are essentially to your own personal path of awakening and changing
and becoming. But what does that really mean?
Or what does that look like in a real practice?
And now I want to share a concept that comes from many of the emails that I receive.
And then we're going to start bringing those or weaving that methodology, that pattern
back into today's podcast.
I think this really underscores this core question that many listeners grapple with
when they are waking up to the emotional immaturity in their relationships, which is, why is it
so challenging to act more intentionally in their relationships, rather than simply just
reacting.
One listener had said, I've been awakening to the emotional immaturity
of my spouse after nearly 20 years of marriage,
thanks to now listening to all, and I mean all, of the episodes of Waking Up the Narcissism.
So this listener then goes on to discuss how difficult it has become to stay present
in the company of their spouse.
They say, despite having the best intentions, they find that even the sound of their spouse's voice
currently triggers a gut reaction, making it difficult for them to stay present and engaged.
So this often leads to them reacting instinctively rather than responding thoughtfully
and being more intentional in their responses. So this brings us back to our question,
why is it so hard to stay intentional rather than just being reactive?
And so this is what we wanna dig a little deeper, dive deeper into in this episode.
So let's talk then about the scars that we get when we are kids.
Yes, we are going back to those childhood abandonment and attachment wounds,
but I won't go all the way back into the womb and give that speech of abandonment and attachment.
But we'll just say that, just let's think about the scars that we get when we're kids.
You know, as children, we are sensitive.
We just are, we're very sensitive, both physically and emotionally.
So sometimes things happen to us that might not really seem like a big deal,
especially to an adult.
When you are operating from kid brain, then these things really do tend to stick with us. So take,
for example, something as simple as a parent not keeping a promise. So maybe they promised to take
us to the park if we stopped throwing a tantrum, but then they forgot about it. Or maybe they
didn't really mean it. They just wanted to quiet us down. That was the way that they got out of the
discomfort of that moment. And in that moment, they really did believe it. Hey, bud, we'll go
to the park later. Not like that, bud, they forgot your name too. That one might hurt a little bit.
But they say that they will take you to the park later. So that does, that calms them down and it
And it calms you down because, okay, all right, I'll work this deal, I'll be nice now
because we're gonna go to the park later.
But then they don't, we don't go to the park. And maybe I'm afraid to bring it up as a kid,
or if I do bring it up, then they act annoyed.
Fine, we'll go to the park, or I know I said that earlier, but not now, maybe we'll go tomorrow.
So that can really start to sit with us or resonate with us, or it could be something more serious,
like parents who are always angry or upset or who never seem to really care or show approval.
So these sort of things, over time, they really can mess with that bond between a child and their parent,
and that can cause a lot of fear and pain, and it's almost like our nervous system is like a sponge,
and it just soaks up these bad experiences,
and then this can leave us feeling alone and uncared for, like our feelings don't really matter.
And then these negative experiences, the experiences, the feelings, stick with us
and deepen our feelings, not just as thoughts.
So then when we grow up and something similar happens, like someone makes a promise, a spouse does,
and then they don't follow through. And then when we say, hey, how about, are we going to the park?
And they can get mad. Adults can get really mad and get really mean.
And here comes things like gaslighting or shut down or withdrawal.
Then it's almost like a switch gets flipped in our minds.
Our body reacts instantly with this gut or visceral reaction,
often and kind of always before we even have a chance to think.
So this means that without realizing it, we may find ourselves reacting to situations,
instead of consciously being able to build a little bit of distance between thought and action,
and choose how we wanna respond.
It's like we're basically living on autopilot and driven by those old wounds from our childhood.
Because, let's remember, let's put things in perspective. If you are listening to this podcast,
or dare I say, if you happen to be a human being,
chances are, because we are really only now, honestly now finally starting to scratch the surface
of being able to talk more intentionally about our emotions or emotional fitness
or emotional health or mental health and wellbeing,
but you probably weren't modeled a perfect example of two securely attached, differentiated,
self-aware, interdependent parents.
And they, honestly, they may have been great and kind, and loving.
But we're only now really understanding the concepts around what creates even the concepts around like an anxious attachment.
Or if dad was always at work slaying the dragon, but mom appreciated that and she worked hard at home,
but she had a whole lot of things to do on her task list,
then they may have been kind and pleasant and wonderful to each other at night,
and they've been happy and treated you well,
but then your little brain though is spending a lot of time just being little and maybe being a little bit on your own,
or when you do want some validation or you're wanting to, you just feel this need
where you just want to be seen or understood or heard.
But maybe dad's at work. We're going total 50 stereotype here.
And mom's just got a couple other kids that she's working with or taking care of things
or has another responsibility outside of the home.
And then it can feel all of a sudden like, wait a minute, well, what's wrong?
Like I need somebody right now.
But right now, maybe doesn't work for parents. And again, this is the version
where these parents mean incredibly well.
Let me pull very quickly from an article that I've referred to on a couple of occasions
on the Virtual Couch podcast, and I think as well as here on Waking Up to Narcissism
from Psychology Today by Darlene Lancer called Attachment Woes Between Anxious
and Avoidant Partners.
In this article, and just simply put, she talks about the relationship duet.
It's this dance of intimacy that all couples do. One partner moves in, the other backs up.
Partners may reverse roles, but always maintain a certain space or distance between them.
And this unspoken agreement is that the pursuer chases the distancer forever,
but then they never catch up.
Or that the distancer keeps running, but they never really get away.
And they're negotiating this emotional space between them.
So then she says that we all have needs for both autonomy and intimacy,
and independence and dependency.
Yet simultaneously we fear both being abandoned, which is acted by the pursuer,
and being too close, which is acted out by the distancer. So we have this dilemma when it comes to intimacy.
How can we be close enough to feel secure and safe without feeling threatened by too much closeness?
And she said, the less room there is to navigate this dance,
the more difficult the relationship. Because here's the part that I find so interesting.
She said, attachment theory has determined that the pursuer has an anxious attachment.
And that the emotionally unavailable partner has more of an avoidant style.
And research suggests that these styles and intimacy problems originate in the relationship
between the mother and the infant.
Babies and toddlers are dependent on the mother's empathy and regard for their needs and emotions
in order to sense their selves or to feel whole.
So to an infant or a toddler, physical or emotional abandonment,
whether through neglect, illness, divorce, or death, and I would even say, or just being busy.
Threatens its existence because of its dependency on the mother for validation and development of wholeness.
Then later, as an adult, being separated in intimate relationships,
can be experienced as a painful reminder
this earlier loss. We go back to that sponge of emotions that then is triggered when our partner maybe starts to pull away or they become too intense.
And she goes on to say that if the mother is ill or depressed or lacks wholeness and self-esteem,
there may be no boundaries between her and her child, so rather than responding to her child,
she projects and sees her child only as an extension of herself, as an object to meet
her own needs and feelings. So she can't even value her child as a separate self.
And then the child's boundaries are violated, and its autonomy and its feelings and thoughts
and or body can be disrespected. So consequently, the child doesn't develop a healthy sense of self
and instead he or she discovers that love and approval come with meeting the mother's needs,
and then they tune into the mother's responses and expectations. So this can also then lead to
things like shame and codependency. So the child learns to please or perform or rebel,
but in any case gradually tunes out its own thoughts, needs, and feelings. So then later
intimacy may threaten the adult's sense of autonomy or identity or they may feel invaded
or they may feel engulfed, or controlled, or shamed, or rejected.
So a person can feel both abandoned if his or her feelings and needs are not
being responded to, but at the same time engulfed by the needs of his or her partner. So then in these codependent
relationships where there are not two separate
whole people coming together, then true intimacy isn't possible because the
fears of not existing and dissolution of the their relationship are so strong.
So what happens then is that when somebody starts to wake up to the emotional immaturity in themselves or the relationship, and now they do, they want to show up, they want to be better, they want to be different, they're trying to figure out, is this relationship viable?
Do we just need the tools that we've never had before? But then you go to show up and then all of a sudden here comes this trauma response that you weren't even aware that you had.
Had. This is why I go back to the you know these steps of enlightenment or path to becoming is that you didn't know you didn't even know what you didn't,
know and now that you know it and you're trying to do it it's really difficult,
and that can be one of the most difficult stages or steps of growth,
because your brain wants to default back to I don't know if this is safe. That.
Information from that psychology today article I just think it resonates so
strongly with me personally but sometimes when I think about including that information, and when I have included it
in previous podcasts, I almost don't want to because now I worry of how many hardworking,
wonderful, amazing, pathologically kind moms who are trying their very, very best
with the information and tools that they have,
will most likely not hear this next part.
I mean, this stuff actually won't hear the part that I just read, and then hear that and say,
oh my gosh, that's fascinating.
But more like, oh my gosh, I've screwed up my kids.
And here's where I just wanna say to anyone listening, Tony's hot take of the day coming up,
three, two, one, here we go.
We kind of all have screwed up our kids, but we have to look at that as, isn't that a thing?
That's wonderful. So we are all beautifully, wonderfully, imperfect human beings.
So now that we know that, now the playing field is level. So good on you for listening to things like this podcast
or reading books or going to therapy or interacting with groups and other people to learn
because you are changing things up, my wonderful listener.
So let's get off that shame train and get on, I don't know, this is one of those
where the analogy just fell short. Something more fun to ride.
And sure, you'll get bumped around, but it can be a beautiful ride.
So, let's even start talking about then, if we're going back to this, we try to show up and be different in our relationship, and now we have all those, we didn't know what we didn't know, we have our childhood wounding that is starting to be expressed, and now, enter in another variable, let's talk about what a good marriage should even look like, and yes, I will preload it with unicorns and rainbows that lead to pots of gold, and your Reese's peanut butter cups are super fresh, like the bags that come out for Easter that you get just a couple of days before, where the peanut butter isn't chalky.
Chalky. But anyway, back to the present moment. So when people have a strong, secure bond,
then they treat relationships more like teamwork. They're working together. They are helping each
other reach common goals. They are able to have emotionally mature conversations. And of course,
they have differences, but they now have the tools to be very curious. They really are there
for each other, giving support and understanding when it's needed. And they tell the truth,
and they don't hide things because being honest helps build trust, even when it's uncomfortable.
And they're not afraid to show their feelings or their soft sides because they know that that is how you create real closeness.
It's not about control, it's about love.
Sure, now they might have arguments or they might not see eye to eye on everything.
I would hope that's the case because then they're both being honest.
But the one thing that never changes is they've got each other's back.
They respect and love each other. And that respect and love for each other, that's not on the line every time they have a disagreement.
Because they know that they're in it together, no matter what.
So then let's now go right back to breaking this down to my easy-to-follow guide for becoming not just a wise person, but a kind of wise person who's, again, actually kind of fun at parties.
This is back to that, my simple steps to being an awesome, enlightened human being who's still a blast at parties and not the guy in the Hawaiian shirt and sits in the corner and greets you with the, hey, there he is, line.
So step one, you don't know what you don't know. This is all about starting off clueless, not knowing what you don't know. It's not your fault. You just never learned certain things yet.
Then that's step two, the learning curve. Now you're starting to learn about those things that you didn't know,
but since they are new to you, you're not going to get them right all the time.
And this can be tough because even though you're just starting to learn, you might be really hard on yourself for not being perfect.
And you might even wish that you didn't know about these things because it feels like a big responsibility.
But then step three, practice is starting to make things feel a little bit better.
I won't say practice makes perfect, but practice makes better.
And then as you keep practicing, something cool starts to happen.
You're doing this new thing more often than you're not, and you're getting better at it.
Then step four, being you. Finally, you reach a point where this new thing becomes a part of you.
You do it without even thinking about it.
It's just a part of who you are, and it is in your character.
It's written in your DNA.
And the best part is that it is not just about you anymore, because by changing yourself,
you are creating a positive change for future generations. Your kids, your grandkids, all of your descendants
will start knowing this thing that you had to work so hard to learn.
So it really does make it worth it.
So back to these childhood wounds, let me give you some examples.
So expanding on some of the things that we started to talk about earlier,
example on broken promises.
So consider back to this child whose parents frequently made promises but they seldom followed through.
So as an adult, this individual might find it really difficult to trust anyone's commitments,
always anticipating the letdown.
So then this starts to trigger a fear response and that fear response could mean that they shut down.
And I know as me, as the, you know, waking up to my own emotional immaturity
as an anxious attachment with fun, good old ADHD,
that there were often times where I had a lot of ideas, and I know that I wanted my wife
to validate every single one of them and think that they were all amazing and wonderful.
But if there was this lack of consistency or follow through on my part,
then that could eventually trigger this response,
that when I'm saying, okay, this time I'm gonna do this, or this time I'm gonna do this,
and in that moment I mean it, but then what it feels like to be me is throwing out a whole lot of ideas
and eventually one of them's gonna stick.
That's exciting for me, but for the person in the relationship
who is hearing about all these ideas,
then to them, there's another idea that we don't end up talking about,
that there is no follow through on.
So then that can start to be difficult to trust somebody's commitment,
especially if there were these wounds from childhood.
So again, that can trigger almost like a fear response every time a promise is made to them,
leaving them anxious or defensively preparing for disappointment.
They can start to shut down and become more avoidant.
And so then those reactions are not necessarily intentional or thought through, they're automatic.
They're a condition response born from their childhood experiences.
So when we start to learn that when we show up in relationships as adults,
that so much of what is happening isn't necessarily about the other person in that moment,
it's about what that person's actions bring up for us.
And that's where I like to start saying more and more about everything becomes an opportunity,
for me to self-confront and for to react.
But that doesn't mean that that person intentionally was trying to hurt me.
That's the way they're showing up. Now that doesn't mean that then I have to just take it,
but then I need to recognize it's an opportunity for growth. And if I go back to that, what a
healthy relationship looks like, it's an opportunity for me to be honest about my feelings and my
thoughts and my emotions. But boy, it can be uncomfortable because I didn't know. So now I.
Might be in that step where I now know, but I don't do very often because I don't, I don't think
think about it, or maybe it isn't natural, or maybe the response doesn't make things easy.
And again, we're so afraid of contention that we tend to avoid any tension in the relationship altogether,
but that tension really is where things can grow.
So then another instance could be emotional neglect. So that could be when a child who was often ignored
or dismissed when they tried to express their feelings, growing into adulthood, then they might struggle
to communicate their emotions effectively.
So they might shut down or lash out when certain emotional topics arise.
And then this again, automatic defense response,
it's not a conscious choice, but rather this visceral or gut reaction
that arises from this subconscious fear
of their feelings being invalidated because as a kid, their feelings literally were invalidated.
And I hope you can see that there's a vibe or a theme going on here as well,
that it can be a parent that is absolutely neglectful
and an abusive, emotionally abusive, physical, verbal, But it can also be somebody that just,
they just weren't as present as they could have been.
They maybe didn't see that modeled in their own, from their own parents and they just didn't know.
And it can seem obvious that, man, why didn't you spend more time with me?
But if the parent just felt like, well, I'm kind of doing what parents do,
Then another one, example three.
And constant criticism. So let's take a child then who was constantly criticized and they never felt good enough in their parents' eyes.
So as an adult, then they are going to struggle with things like perfectionism.
And they may have a severe fear of failure, and this could translate into them overreacting or being overly defensive when they receive feedback or criticism as an adult.
Maybe it'll work. So they're not, they may not consciously be choosing to be defensive or reactive, but instead there's those childhood wounds again being triggered and causing this just automatic reaction.
And so it's so important to be able to just build in this somatic response through whether it's mindfulness and meditation and breathing and breath, all those things so that you can can build in that pause, then say, hey, check this out.
Another example, emotional unavailability.
So a scenario could be a child whose parents were emotionally unavailable,
or then like I was mentioning earlier, often absent.
So as an adult, then this person might struggle with forming intimate relationships
because they fear abandonment.
They fear like this person is going to leave or they feel like when they are gonna express
their emotions, that person that they are counting on is gonna pull away.
So then they may actually then start to push people away or avoid commitment as a protective measure
in this kind of concept of where they're gonna burn the village down before anybody else gets to them.
They might push people away. Their behavior, again, isn't a conscious decision,
but it's more of a subconscious response to their fear of being abandoned again.
And so much of this is that, when we talk about the visceral reaction,
that the emotions travel faster than logic. And it's a pretty cool defense mechanism
when you think there's a snake on the ground and you see something out of the corner of your eye.
It turns out it was just a stick or a piece of rope.
So in that scenario, it's pretty amazing that your body reacts before the logic kicks in.
When you're an adult human being and you emotionally react before you realize that it's just some nerdy guy with glasses,
your boss who's saying that I think you could have done that better, even though he doesn't know what it feels like to be you,
and the fact that you gave it your best, then you don't assign as much meaning to that.
If you can build that pause in when it isn't just that visceral or gut reaction.
So just talking about strategies to learn how to navigate these situations,
there is this concept that I like of building emotional intelligence.
So what does that mean to build emotional intelligence? Because understanding somebody's emotions,
that is, it's a crucial part of being intentional in your actions and not being as reactive.
And all of these involve work, consistency and work. So meditation, if you do meditation once in a blue moon,
you may think, well, that felt okay.
But if you're doing meditation, if you are meditating on a daily basis,
basis, then it really does start to change the dynamics of how you show up in situations.
I talk about using the Headspace app and I've done that for years and I'm now on, I think
I was looking this morning, I think a 25-day streak of meditating using the Peloton app
and we got the bike and those sort of things, but they have meditation in their app and
I don't know what it is, but I really, really enjoy them.
With Headspace, I like this British guy named Andy who just sounds so darn jovial and telling
me how to breathe in through my nose and out through my mouth and body scan and
let my thoughts wander and come back and and I've been doing that for years but
there's something about just the the the true meditative vibe and music and and
just a lot of the breathing that I'm doing in the Peloton app and it is I really have felt.
Pretty on fire with that the last three weeks. And this is something that I've been doing somewhat
regularly for years. And even with that, I feel like the meditation game has been up to quite a
bit. And so I just I cannot recommend that enough yoga, breath work meditation, because that is part
of this building the emotional intelligence is to be able to pause long enough to identify.
The emotions. So identifying, understanding, managing your feelings and emotions,
the better you understand your emotions, and the easier it's going to be to react intentionally
rather than instinctively. And you can even do things like whenever you become aware.
Then just take a quick scan or check right now. What am I feeling? Weird little pain in a foot?
Or do I stand up straight? Can I put my shoulders back and my chest out and take a big cleansing
breath in through the nose, out through the mouth and do a quick check in? Are my eyes tired? Am I
slouching? Do I feel any pain? And just to be able to start to check in with your body just as an
an observer. That's one of those practices to also build emotional intelligence. You can learn self-soothing techniques. So when a past wound's
triggered, then you might feel this strong overwhelming emotion. Then try using self-soothing techniques, which might include deep breathing. It might
include some grounding techniques or repeating a comforting mantra. Or this.
Isn't exactly it, but I remember when we were at a Lamaze class, I think, before
having our first kid who is now in her 20s.
But I remember there was this couple and we were talking about focusing on a picture
or your spouse or some breathing techniques. And I remember this guy holding up a picture
of the family cat to his wife.
And my wife and I thought that was just, it was hilarious and adorable.
But man, if you get grounded by taking a look at your favorite tabby, then bring that picture along.
Whatever those self-soothing techniques are, those are also gonna help build in
this emotional intelligence.
And then healthy relationships.
I cannot stress this enough.
If your childhood wounds involve other people, such as parents, siblings, friends,
then it might be beneficial to work in building healthier relationships as an adult.
Now, this doesn't necessarily mean rebuilding the relationship with the person who hurt you.
But forming relationships where you felt heard and respected and cared for is just imperative.
And I really think, I'm not sure if we've talked about this on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
I'll talk about this on the group meetings, the group calls, but a lot of times when you wake up
to that emotional immaturity in your relationship,
or your main relationships, it will appear as if everybody around you is emotionally immature
or narcissistic, or taking advantage of you, and this goes back to that,
and I never want this to sound negative or dismissive to somebody's experience,
but if they have found themselves in that position in their primary relationship, in their marriage,
then there's a good chance that that's because of that pathological kindness,
and so they may have found themselves in that role in their church, in their family,
their extended family dynamic, in their friend group,
and so when they start to step out of that role of being the pathologically kind caretaker,
buffer, you name it, then they may start to see that that's who they are in most of their friendships.
And that's really important then to start to not just feel like, oh my gosh, I'm losing everybody,
but it's an opportunity, an opportunity to self-confront of how am I showing up in my relationships?
And now that I'm starting to stand up for having my own feelings, my own thoughts, my own beliefs,
then can I now carry that into my relationships?
And can I start to find healthier relationships where people want to know what my thoughts are,
what my feelings are, and what I would like to do, and I don't just continually have to acquiesce
and give in to what others want to do.
So, just remember, one of the key things is that this, all of this, this healing is a personal journey,
and it is going to differ from one person to another, and it's important to go at your own pace.
And it's okay to ask for help when you need it. And it's gonna take, here we go,
it's gonna take as long as it's gonna take, and you're right where you need to be,
and there isn't a magic cure-all, but there can be a lot of useful tools
as you start to work toward becoming more intentional
in your relationships, and including that relationship with yourself.
So to navigate all of these situations, it really is, it's gonna be a big key
to identify and understand the triggers that cause you to start to feel reactionary,
even if you're having to review the game film and do it after the fact.
Because navigating the situations and understanding those triggers,
that is gonna be that with some mindfulness and self-awareness, there's your key.
So whenever you find yourself reacting strongly to a situation, then take a moment to reflect.
Are you reflecting to the present situation? Do you need to trust your gut?
And is the person that's interacting with you, do they pose a threat?
Or is your subconscious triggering an old wound?
So then you're gonna start working toward healing the wounds.
Therapy, self-help books, support groups, podcasts, meditation, all these are valuable tools,
but it's also important to be patient with yourself during the process.
Okay, and so let me talk about something else that I think will help with this building of our emotional intelligence, and that is this understanding of our primary and our secondary emotions, because they play such a crucial role, a very critical role in our interactions with how we handle different situations, especially internally.
So let me review if you're not familiar with primary and secondary emotions.
So these primary emotions are, they are the immediate response that we have
to a specific event or a situation. So these are automatic and they are not premeditated.
So the primary emotions, those basically serve as our instinctive reactions. So for instance,
if you're about to give a speech in front of a large crowd, you might feel anxious,
you might feel some anxiety. That would be the primary emotion.
Now the secondary emotions that they are very important to understand as well,
because the secondary emotion or feelings, those are the ones that arise as a response
to our primary emotion. So they're usually a little bit more complex and nuanced,
and they're often influenced by our own thoughts or our beliefs about ourselves,
or primarily based off of our past experiences. So we keep up with this previous example.
If your primary emotion is anxiety before giving a speech, then if you start to feel shame because
you for some reason believe that you should not be anxious because you've been asked to do this,
or you've done it successfully in the past, then shame is that secondary emotion.
And it just comes just crashing down on you and can make you just feel, well, a lot of shame.
Or one that I share often is when my kids were little and they were in this phase where they just loved
to jump out from around the corner and scare me.
If my, and it was for a little while, if my first response was anger,
like, man, you guys knock it off, then that's actually my secondary emotion
to my primary emotion, which was fear or maybe embarrassment.
So it's important to learn, and this is, again, one of those opportunities to sit with discomfort,
to sit with those primary emotions.
And when you're aware now that maybe that secondary emotion comes in to cover up for
or react to that primary emotion, now you can learn to have a little bit more of a pause in there.
And because now, if I can just say, Oh my gosh, you guys scared me to death.
They did. And then we have a wonderful shared experience and now they aren't feeling bad about,
wait, sometimes this guy responds like this is the funniest thing in the world,
and other times he gets really mad and I can't understand why. So if I can just get in tune or
in touch with my primary emotion and just live from this place of being okay with the fact that
holy cow, even though they're little kids, they scared the crap out of me, then that's okay.
And that is, again, part of this building of this emotional intelligence. So in essence,
then primary emotions occur again in this direct response to an external event, then the secondary
emotion are those reactions to the primary emotions. And boy, we can beat ourselves up for
those. And so, and I don't think I've really put those, the primary and secondary emotions together
yet in a podcast with also this concept that I believe it's from Buddhism that is talking about
the first dart or first arrow and the second dart or second arrow responses, because this is a
the brilliant one as well.
So let's go with darts. So the first dart thrown is equivalent to the primary emotion.
It's the inevitable, unavoidable pain or discomfort that we experience when something unpleasant happens.
So the first dart is thrown by life.
It's just part of the human condition. It's out of our control.
For example, if we lose our job, then your immediate disappointment or shock or fear
you feel represent that first dart.
And those are your primary emotions. Then the second dart is similar to the secondary emotion.
So it's the additional suffering that we inflict upon ourselves through our reactions to the first dart.
So oftentimes the thought or the belief is that we throw that second dart at ourselves.
If we can learn to understand that our first dart reaction is normal,
then we have more control over that second dart.
So because again, that second dart or secondary emotion is where our self-judgment or our fears
or our interpretation of things, that they intensify that initial pain of the first dart.
So in the job loss scenario, if you start blaming yourself for feeling worthless
and you sink into a pit of despair because you believe you could have done something
to prevent it when maybe you couldn't have.
Well then these feelings represent that second dart. Those are your secondary emotions.
So, continuing on this theme of building the emotional intelligence, that that's going to
involve recognizing the distinction between the primary and secondary emotions, are these first
and second dart reactions. So, however you find it easier to remember, it's about acknowledging
that while you can't always control the first dart or the primary emotion, you can start to
manage that secondary emotion or that second dart by altering your perspective and learning how to build
in a pause to your response and just sitting with some good old discomfort and acceptance.
And then this understanding, this is what I mean, it will allow us to cultivate a more intentional
and less reactive mindset, which is going to reduce the self-inflicted suffering that comes
from that second dart of life.
Imagine you are meeting at work and you make a mistake during your presentation, maybe you misread a graph
and it leads to an incorrect conclusion. So you immediately feel a wave of embarrassment
wash over you and your colleagues point out that you made a big old error and they point it out in front of everybody.
So this embarrassment, there's your first dart. It's a primary emotion and it's an immediate response
to the unpleasant experience of making a mistake in public. So now let's move on to that second dart.
So as a child, suppose you had a parent who was overly critical and they would angrily point out
every single minor mistake that you made and that would make you feel small
and it would make you feel humiliated and dumb and stupid and all of those words.
So this childhood wound then would be kind of buried deep inside of you
and it would have taught you to associate mistakes
with being criticized and being made to feel small, to feel diminished.
So then when your colleagues point out your error, it's not just the embarrassment you feel
that triggers this childhood wound and it stirs up these feelings of anger and they are just visceral
and they pop right out of your subconscious and this is that second dart.
So the anger then isn't just about the mistakes that you made or about your colleagues' comments,
it's a defense mechanism.
It's a secondary emotion fueled by your past experiences and your subconscious' desire to protect you
from feeling small and humiliated again because you sure hated it as a kid
and you don't wanna have to feel that ever again because you weren't given the tools,
which I don't think really any of us were, to learn what to do with those emotions
now that we're an adult human being.
So recognizing that your anger then is a secondary emotion and it's a response to your childhood wound rather than the immediate situation,
I hope you can start to see that that is what is going to help you manage your reactions better.
And it allows you to understand that it's not the criticism itself that's causing your intense anger,
but that is your muse to allow you to look internally and see that it is absolutely these old wounds that are being reopened.
So, by acknowledging and working to heal the wounds over time, then you might start to
find that the first dart of embarrassment still might strike when you make a mistake,
but the second dart of anger or shame, that that may start to lose its power.
So then it allows you to respond more calmly and then intentionally to such situations
and then you find out that you actually are still alive and it's okay.
And so then it will start to feel better to be you in those situations.
Let me give a husband and wife example.
So let's say a husband and a wife are at a social gathering and during a conversation with friends,
the wife playfully brings up an incident where the husband made a small but humorous mistake at home.
So maybe he mixed up laundry detergent with fabric softener or he put, what was the one I did once,
he put one of the wrong soap in the dishwasher and so then you have suds everywhere, an overly sudsy mess.
So the husband in that scenario immediately feels a surge of embarrassment.
Here's the first dart.
It's a natural reaction to having an error brought up in a public setting,
even if the story is being shared with humor and without malice.
Then the second dart comes into play. So as a child, let's say the husband had
a very critical parent who would often ridicule his mistakes in front of others
and whenever they would go out, oh, let me tell you what dummy did today.
So these experiences then create more of that sense of shame and then humiliation around making errors at all.
So then a subsequent defensive anger response who will show up then to protect your dignity.
So then when his wife brings up the laundry incident in a social setting,
it's not just the embarrassment of the mistake that impacts him,
then that situation triggers the childhood wound resulting in an unexpected surge of anger, that second dart.
And it is more intense than the situation warrants. He loses his stuff and everybody around him goes quiet.
So he may react defensively. He could snap at his wife, withdraw from the gathering,
even though his wife had no intention causing such a reaction.
And his anger isn't solely about the embarrassment from the incident that his wife shared. Again,
it's a response. It's a response to the feelings of ridicule and humiliation from his childhood.
So when you recognize those dynamics, then that can then help this guy understand that
it was an overreaction, but he's gonna have to learn how to sit with even the discomfort of,
understanding or self-confronting that he overreacted. But then that will help him.
Or enable him to communicate his feelings with his wife more effectively. He can work on healing
those old wounds. And it also highlights the importance of empathy and understanding in
a relationship because everybody carries wounds from their past that might unexpectedly surface.
But that doesn't again mean that you have to continually return to unhealthy relationship
dynamics. But just knowing that we're all trying to make sense of things from childhood
without even knowing it. For a point of reference, I don't think I've shared a lot about my four
pillars in a little bit. So let's take a look at what that would look like. Let's say that
I was working with this couple and they were not just using, but they were embracing my four pillars of a connected conversation.
So, they would return home from the gathering and both the husband and wife would feel tension.
And again, we're so afraid of contention if we don't have the right tools that we avoid tension altogether.
But there's tension, and it was pretty clear that they needed to address what happened.
But it was equally important to approach the conversation in a constructive, productive manner.
So, they call upon the four pillars of a connected conversation.
I've got my acronym, BASE, we'll talk about that next.
And maybe they have to pull out worksheets, they have to do whatever.
So they are going to be intentional about having this conversation.
And they are gonna even start with what I call my pre-pillar which is grounding yourself in observation.
It's that observation and judgment.
As we all make an observation and a judgment in the same frame, we have to separate our judgment
from the observation.
So in this pre-pillar, grounding yourself, the husband then takes some time
and he's gonna reflect on his feelings and he recognizes that his action at the gathering
was significantly amplified by his past experiences.
Because he now realizes that his wife's playful teasing had unintentionally triggered memories of
his childhood humiliation. So where he had made the observation of her playful teasing,
he had equated that with a judgment of that she felt like he was dumb. So now he's separated that
observation from the judgment because that's going to give him an opportunity to be more curious.
So now my four pillars, I'm trying to work with this acronym BASE, giving his wife the benefit
The husband remembers that his wife's intent was not to embarrass or ridicule him, so he decides to discuss the situation with her, not accusing her of intending harm, but wanting to understand more because he now understands that she was not trying to hurt him.
And then A, the A in BASE, accepting her perspective as her perspective. So, I can't tell her she's wrong or that's ridiculous or I don't believe you. Even if he feels that way, he's allowed to have his feelings, but he's going to say, tell me more.
To say, tell me more. And I want to understand what that situation was like from your point
of view. And he accepted that her intention was playful. And so, then he had to, again,
sit with some discomfort, which then led to the S in BASE. So, we got the benefit of the
doubt, accept their perspective, and then S, it's in essence, it's switching from comments
to questions, or it really is based off of Stephen Covey, seek first to understand before
being understood. So he's going to go in and start asking questions instead of just letting her know
how he feels. And he's going to listen and he's going to say, hey, take me on your train of
thought. Help me understand what that was like for you. Tell me more. And he's going to listen
as she explains that, again, she didn't mean harm. She thought it was funny. She remembered having
conversations around it where he had brought it up before and he had laughed about it.
So she felt safe. She thought that that was okay to talk about.
And then the last one, E and Base embrace the conversation, which is the lean in.
Don't go run to your bunker. Don't take a victim stance or mentality.
So then the wife, despite feeling vulnerable, then she continued to lean into the conversation.
She wasn't gonna say no, but I'll never do it again.
So they both stayed present. They kept their defenses down. They refused to play victim.
They both recognized that this difficult conversation actually was an opportunity for growth
and they could connect in the relationship.
So through this honest, empathetic dialogue, they were able to understand each other's feelings better,
and he now understood that she meant him no harm.
And he couldn't tell her that I don't believe you, and he heard her, and he felt heard.
So they agreed that playful teasing was okay, but then they decided together on maybe some boundaries
to ensure they both felt safe and respected, that when they were joking about something
that had been that embarrassing, one-on-one, that it might be okay if one of them said,
hey, is this one of those things that we just keep between ourselves,
or would you be open if I shared this story, if it felt like the right time?
And that experience, even though it was challenging, ultimately brought them closer together.
Now, what would it look like in this scenario if the one I'm laying out was if the wife was emotionally immature?
They would return home from the gathering, the tension would be tangible.
The husband then says, okay, I gotta address this, and he starts the conversation,
and he starts sharing his feelings. Maybe he's even been trying to do the four pillars,
And he starts saying, hey, here's how I felt.
And even though that was a lighthearted teasing that it triggered this deep and painful memory,
and despite his efforts to communicate,
the conversation would quickly deviate from the principles of this four pillars
or this base framework because of her emotionally immature response.
And so rather than granting him the benefit of the doubt, she dismisses his feelings.
And she says, you're being overly sensitive. That was a harmless joke.
And so what does she do? In that scenario, she sidesteps the whole responsibility
of considering his perspective and denied any wrongdoing on her part.
And so then, ignoring the next pillar of accepting their perspective, then she would refuse to
acknowledge that her husband might have had a different reaction because she's saying that
his reaction was wrong. And she belittled his feelings, accused him of overreacting to it's
just a simple funny story. And then when it came to the S, or seek first to understand,
she's not attempting to understand his feelings or perspective. Instead, she blames him now for
not being able to take a joke, which even further escalates the situation and then is putting even
more of a wedge between them. And as a matter of fact, she's getting mad now that she's even
having to waste time and energy in defending a joke that she said was actually quite funny.
At the time, everybody laughed. And then rather than that leaning in and staying present with
that discomfort, then she deflected, she changed the subject and she even started to deny that,
you know what? I think you're darn near made the whole thing up anyway. It wasn't even that big of
a deal, which is basically this classic sign of gaslighting. So when you look at it from that
standpoint of unhealthy, unproductive conversations, then it's that one's going to leave the husband
feeling unheard and invalidated. And instead, they miss this opportunity to foster connection,
and it drives them further apart. And so I only throw that out there as well, because
even when we start to do our own work, and we might start to become more emotionally intelligent
and learning to build in that pause and sit with discomfort and all of those amazing things.
Then without the right tools, then that you can still show up in your relationship in a certain
way and that doesn't necessarily mean that the other person is going to reciprocate.
And if that's the case, I hope you're understanding from today's episode that that doesn't mean
that you are the problem or that you've done something wrong or that you are the bad guy.
And I know that the pathologically kind person is saying right now,
I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, and I'm not saying that either.
If you're the one that is, again, still listening, especially this late in the podcast, I know you're trying to learn as much as you can, so you can show up better in your relationships and you can be in a better position to make the best choice for you and for your family, for your kids.
And so I see that work that you're doing, because healing is not a linear process.
You're going to have really good days, and then you're going to have just days.
And when you have those days, then give yourself grace, review the game film, and then what
am I maybe pretending not to know?
Or what new data can I gather? And then this is your own personalized treatment plan.
So keep going. And it's really important to practice being intentional instead of just immediately reacting.
You can take a moment to breathe, consider the situation, decide how you would like to
respond, even if you feel like you are unable to, just that it's becoming aware.
And it won't come naturally at first, especially if your initial instinct is to react defensively.
But with this practice, you start to gradually retrain your brain to respond more intentionally.
So not an easy process. Overcoming childhood wounds and shifting from a reactive to a more intentional approach
is going to take a lot of time and effort and self-compassion.
Thank you so much for taking the time today. I hope that this helped to help put things in perspective of why it can be so important
to start to take on a practice that will allow you to put distance between thought and action.
And it will start to help you just be more present. And that's not just something that is important to do when you're in conversations with emotionally
immature people.
But that pause is going to help and go a long way so that yeah, you may get that first dart
reaction but you're not going to be throwing that second dart like a boomerang right back at your head.
If you have additional questions, thoughts, show ideas, haikus, poems, or you want to
be in any of the groups that I run, then please reach out to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
Have an amazing week and I will see you next time on Waking Up The Nurse.
Music.