WEBVTT

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Music.

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Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 79 of Waking Up to Narcissism.

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I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast, Murder

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on the Couch podcast.

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I guess a lot of couch-related podcasts and very soon a podcast or a season of a podcast

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based on the book that I helped co-author called He's a Porn Addict, Now What?

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An Expert and a Former Addict, Answer Your Questions, where I play the part of the expert.

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That is going to be one with co-author Joshua Shea, where we read the questions and answers

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from the book. And then we have some bonus content where we talk about where we're at

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two or three years later after the publishing of the book and what has maybe changed, or we

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deep dive more into the answers and the concepts around the answers. And that talks about turning

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the pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. It also addresses for the partner who feels

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betrayed. So I am looking forward to getting that episode out and all the links for all the things

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will be in the show notes, the link tree links for that. So let me go on my train of thought.

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So today I want to take some time and I want to dive deep into the intricate web of relationships,

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and especially the complexities that occur or arrive when therapists encounter emotionally

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immature or narcissistic individuals in couples therapy. And I have a thread in the Private

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Women's Facebook group about couples therapy or therapy in general when you're dealing with a

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narcissist or an emotionally immature person. Because I'll say right out of the gate that

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we're taught that doing couples therapy when there is this kind of gaslighting or emotional

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abuse can be contraindicated, meaning it is going to do the opposite. It can be quite negative.

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Here's the problem. When I talk about just the whole basis of starting waking up the narcissism,

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it's because you hear those things like, well, you don't do the couple's therapy.

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But the problem is nobody knows if this person is emotionally mature or narcissistic. If people

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just don't know what they don't know. And so even as a therapist, you're going in with my

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pillar one for life of assuming good intentions, that there's a reason or there's a reason why

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people are showing up even in therapy and their relationships the way that they are.

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And then is it a matter of they just don't have the tools to communicate?

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And so if they are given the right tools, then will they learn to all of a sudden break

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as these cycles in their past and in their family dynamic, and then change for the better and then change the world

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as now their kids have more tools and they see their parents more connected.

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So just like an individual is waking up to their own either narcissistic traits and tendencies

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or the narcissism in their relationship, The therapist is also going through an experience

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where they're trying to navigate the complicated waters,

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of, I don't know these people, but they're in my office now.

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I'm trying to look for things that I have become aware of because of maybe my areas of expertise as a therapist.

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And the reason I am so excited to talk about this topic is I know I have a lot of therapists

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that listen to the podcast, and I want this to spark some questions.

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I want your questions, especially therapists, If you are hearing this and you have your own thoughts, questions, experiences, and

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I want your stories.

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Because to my fellow therapists, I promise you I come in peace because we definitely just don't

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know what we don't know. And we are trying our best to navigate the best way to help our clients.

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And we're also reading all the things that talk about personality disorders and they're.

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Difficult to work with and we want to protect our clients. But we also know that there's two sides

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to each story and everybody's bringing their own stuff into therapy. We got to watch out for our

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own counter-transference or what does this bring up in me, seeing a relationship play out in front of me.

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So I just want you to know that this is such a desire of mine to just start having more

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dialogue around working with a population where one or potentially both people are more

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on the emotionally immature side, not knowing what they don't know.

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There is this just almost this spectrum of where somebody is truly trying their best and they don't

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know and they want to be better. And then there's also people who just because of all their childhood

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wounding, their deep abandonment, attachment issues, the way that they saw relationships

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modeled, that it may not be in their realm of understanding or ability to tolerate the discomfort

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to self-confront. And so at some point, and therapists, I think, who have been, who are

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hearing me and saying, I think I know what he's talking about, that you get to that point where

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then you do make a bit of a judgment call to say, okay, I can do my best to help this person who is

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losing their entire sense of self in this relationship, maybe then navigate what is

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best for them, which then can be best for their kids, which can, in essence, stop this.

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Generational trauma from occurring, that at some point, maybe you get this opportunity

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to shift your focus from trying to help the relationship to help someone become a transformational

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figure in their entire family system.

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If you are individuals who have gone to couples therapy and really felt like it, that therapist

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really didn't understand what was going on, because I don't want this to be a,

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hey, let's get the pitchforks and bash all therapists. I happen to be one,

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because this is one of those concepts where I want to help change how we deal with this

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topic in couples therapy as a therapist and myself, or if you're going in as an individual,

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and then you start to notice certain things that are happening in the couples therapy,

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and you have the right to feel like your therapist doesn't understand what they're talking about.

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And I want you to have the tools by the end of this episode to be able to self-advocate as well.

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And then therapists, I want you to recognize that you are a human being as well,

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and you don't know what you don't know.

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And so, if you are hearing from one of the people in the session's experience,

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and your immediate reaction is, no, you don't understand, I'm the expert.

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Then that's an opportunity to sit with some discomfort, self-confront, and grow,

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because I will tell you, with every bit of empathy that as somebody now that has done couples therapy for a solid well over 15 years,

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because the first couple of years I didn't do much couples therapy, but now at any given week

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for the past few years, I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week. I've got my four pillars of a connected

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conversation based off of Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy, and it's gold. It's manna from

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heaven. And so I feel confident that when I can see a couple that really embraces the tools and

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a new framework, and then they get better, that then that also helps me understand that when a

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a couple comes in and one or both cannot grasp

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the framework or the tools that now we start looking at, okay, this is going to play out a certain way

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and it most likely will not be beneficial for the more pathologically kind person

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coming into the session.

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So what do I do about that as a therapist?

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Do I just maintain that, hey, I'm still just a mirror and I am a reflection for them?

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But then if you're hearing from one of the people that after they leave therapy, things are horrible,

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and not the uncomfortable, but horrible where there's more manipulation, more emotional abuse.

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But if you're saying, okay, but I have to remain this person who the relationship is the client,

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then I want you to have the confidence to self-confront because we're here to help people get better.

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And whether we want that to be the couple, which is what a good couples therapist wants to happen, that's wonderful.

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But then if you now notice that, okay, that is not gonna happen,

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I need to help save the individual and help that individual save themselves,

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actually is probably more applicable.

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So, we don't get training as therapists, really, on working with extremely emotionally immature people

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or people with personality disorders. And I know that you know what we say

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when we're all talking about, as therapists,

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about people with personality disorders.

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Run, because they'll drain you as a therapist and suck the life out of you.

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And often, they're so good at the gaslighting and pushing your buttons,

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that you will find yourself reacting, and all of a sudden, man, they got me too.

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And it's an opportunity to grow, it really is, as a therapist, and that's why I love

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when therapists go to a therapy consultation group.

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And I think that can be very beneficial and helpful to process things as a therapist.

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But sometimes we're too embarrassed because we want to say, wait, I'm the therapist, and

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that person just pushed my buttons. I can't believe I allowed myself to get into that position.

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And I drop my guard, or rather than looking at that and saying, oh, okay, I see where

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they got me. enjoying a nice popcorn moment until they hit that one nerve.

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And then I reacted and all I can do now is self-confront, take ownership of that, and

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then use that to help me grow.

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So imagine this. Here we go. You are a seasoned therapist. You've spent years in the chair.

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You're guiding couples through the ups and downs of their relationships and you've developed

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this almost keen sense for now deciphering the intricacies of human behavior, understanding

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the dynamics at play in your office.

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But even with all that experience, there are times when you now are facing, it is quite

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a formidable challenge that is the emotionally immature narcissistic partner.

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And that can present such a perplexing puzzle, one that takes a lot of years of practice,

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and time in the chair to begin to recognize and to unravel.

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Because at first they may appear charming and charismatic and even convincing in their

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commitment to change.

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And they will often be very flattering and they will bond with you and they will start,

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telling you how much they understand, they get it.

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This is the first time they've had a therapist they've really been able to identify with.

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But then if you start to see that or notice that as time goes on, then you too start to question

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the authenticity of their words and their actions.

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Are they really invested in the therapeutic process or are they just really good at manipulation and control?

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And I think one of the most powerful things that I've recognized over the years is do,

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I think an emotionally immature narcissistic person is very good at saying the right thing

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to alleviate their discomfort or get the validation in that moment.

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And that's where we could make the argument that in that moment, they mean it,

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but then that was just the tool to get out of that moment or to get validation from you as the therapist.

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But now that they have left the office, now that is done. You are, even that moment is somewhat discarded.

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And now they're just interacting with the next person in the next moment.

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And now they will do whatever they need to in that moment to seize control, to take this one up or victim one down

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status to have people come rescue them.

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So for both the therapist and the couple, then this starts to be a really difficult situation

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because the emotionally immature or narcissistic partner or person in the room.

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They will start to engage in tactics like lying, minimizing their behavior, love bombing,

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overwhelming their partner right in front of you, having excessive displays of affection and emotion

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or just trying to maintain control or avoid confronting their own shortcomings. So recognizing

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these patterns does take practice. It kind of takes a keen eye of the therapist and understanding of

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of the dynamics that are at play, that understanding that what the emotionally

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immature person does is they speed through the work, they get it so fast,

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oh my gosh, I get it for the first time, and then you feel like a good therapist

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because they get it and you feel like, okay, this is great, I'm gonna watch this

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person change. And as a therapist, I think it's really important to even start

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looking at introducing the idea of positive tension. So if they get it, well.

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Then, man, I'm so grateful you get it. Tell me what you get, tell me what that

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sounds like for you? Help me understand what you're hearing and what do you

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think you can do to implement that into your life? And a real-life example of

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that that happens often is when somebody finally does say, oh man that sitting

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with discomfort, okay that one really resonated with me and I realize now that

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that is something that that I can work on. Okay well tell me what like how are

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you gonna work on that? Oh I'm just I'm gonna be more aware. Okay well what is

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tell me what that would look like? Tell me what that would mean? Because if the

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person really has gone introspective and they are really self-confronting and

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taking a look at that, then they can often come up with a lot of different examples of, oh my gosh, yeah, when my kid asks me if they can go do something and

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it costs money, that does make me uncomfortable.

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And so often I recognize that I will say, yeah, no, I think it sounds like a

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great idea, but am I really in that moment saying it and just hoping that he

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forgets or am I saying it in that moment? but then I'm not willing to have the courage to say.

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But I don't know if we can afford it, but I'm going to take a look and see if we can.

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And I'm not going to tell you that right now. And then when you finally come back to me and ask for

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the money, then I'm going to let you know at that point that I really don't think we can afford it.

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You know, do you have the courage to deal with that discomfort now and say, man,

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bud, I wish we could, but I don't think we can really afford that right now.

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Even if that child now is going to be disappointed because we don't want to disappoint others. We

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want everybody to love us and validate us. And unfortunately, if you are the emotionally

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immature person, then you go to great lengths and unhealthy ways to get that validation.

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And that will be saying something in the moment to get validation and to have that person light

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up across the couch from you or on the couch with you. But then, are you going to do anything about

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it? It's going to sound like I'm going on a tangent, I think, but this is where I've been

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really looking at concepts around just the idea of even just a confession in general.

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That oftentimes I feel like a confession, whether it's to a religious leader or to a spouse,

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is a way to just get the validation, unload my own discomfort, and then get out of that

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moment. And even if the person feels like in that moment, okay, that worked, I told my priest or I

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told my spouse that, yeah, I did it. You know, I was doing something, looking at porn or something

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like that. And then now I just said, okay, I just handed this burden over to you. I feel better. I

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feel much lighter. And then now it's up to you to either forgive me, tell me it's okay, because if

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not, then I cannot believe that you are treating me that way when I just expressed myself a very

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vulnerable emotion and now you're making me feel worse. So that's one of those

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examples where you know this is where you do have to start staying in your healthy ego as a therapist and recognize there's a right way and a

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incorrect way for that a client shows up in sessions and if you have been doing

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this long enough you have to trust your own BS meter, your own instincts, your own

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gut reactions or visceral reactions that you have now hopefully done enough work

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that you know when somebody says I get it here's how I get it and you feel like

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Wow, they really understand what this concept is at a deep level.

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They understand that, wow, in the past, maybe I have confessed.

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Because I wanted to see if you said, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Then I felt like,

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wow, that feels good. So I feel better, but now I'm not doing any work after I'm not starting to

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journal. I'm not going to a group meetings. I'm not starting an exercise regimen. I'm not starting

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to get patterns and consistency in my life. I just feel better because I just expressed

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something that I'm not happy with, or that you asked me to express. I did it.

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You have told me a good job. You've patted me on my head and now I don't have to do anything else.

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You know, versus again, the person that says, I get it now, I here's the pattern I've done in

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the past and here's how I am going to change. So that's a, there's a big difference there.

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And again, that takes a lot of years and experience. I was on an interview not long

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ago. I may have already said this on the waking up the narcissism podcast here, but let's, you

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know, let's go with this number of 1500 couples that I've worked with over the last 17, 18 years.

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And I would say the first, again, making this very easy math, but maybe the first 500, I really,

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It's embarrassing to admit, but I feel like any therapist that has done a lot of couples work over the years

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will admit the first, let's say the first 500 couples or the first few years,

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you really don't know what you don't know.

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And you're just showing up in the room and you're trying to do whatever you can

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if it's just some simple reflective listening skills.

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But sometimes it's just a matter of you being there in the room with the couple,

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the couple going through the process of signing up for couples therapy that can improve things.

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So you feel like, well, at least they're coming and at least I'm doing it.

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And sometimes they think it goes well.

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And then I feel like you shift over into the, oh, you start to actually have some real tools,

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but now as a therapist, you don't even realize you probably want validation

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and you wanna ease discomfort, your discomfort and the discomfort of the couple.

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So for a few years there, as I'm starting to even talk about EFT,

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emotionally focused therapy, well before I put these into context of the four pillars,

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where I would say a lot of things about EFT,

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I can even hide behind the words that we use in therapy of psychoeducation.

00:16:27.814 --> 00:16:31.734
I was being able to just tell them and teach them things, almost like more coaching.

00:16:32.254 --> 00:16:36.094
And so then they would say, wow, those things sound good. Right, honey?

00:16:36.094 --> 00:16:40.214
They look at each other, they light up. I'm having a moment because I feel like, okay, this is great.

00:16:40.854 --> 00:16:45.334
But was I just saying things because I wanted them to validate me that look at these things I'm saying

00:16:45.334 --> 00:16:46.480
and they do kind of make some sense.

00:16:47.014 --> 00:16:49.494
And then they look at each other and say, this guy makes some sense.

00:16:49.494 --> 00:16:53.634
And those are things that we've never heard before. So then everybody leaves, they feel better,

00:16:53.634 --> 00:16:55.545
but it's that same concept of what do they do?

00:16:56.054 --> 00:16:58.957
Do they do anything throughout the week? Are they doing things to get better?

00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:04.476
And that's where I feel like maybe, let's say over the last few years and the last few hundred couples later,

00:17:05.007 --> 00:17:09.054
that when you actually understand the tools, you've internalized those tools as a therapist

00:17:09.054 --> 00:17:13.604
and you're starting to bring those into sessions and it does create a lot of tension.

00:17:13.901 --> 00:17:16.476
And we're so afraid of that contention, we avoid the tension altogether,

00:17:16.737 --> 00:17:21.391
not just in a couple's relationship, but as a therapist, that often that tension can be uncomfortable

00:17:21.574 --> 00:17:26.360
and you have to learn to model that behavior for your clients and learn what to do in that discomfort.

00:17:26.459 --> 00:17:31.527
And if you feel confident about your tools as a therapist, then you can use that discomfort for your good.

00:17:32.473 --> 00:17:37.243
But what I've noticed is that I'm probably working with more difficulty in couple sessions

00:17:37.243 --> 00:17:43.104
because I'm willing to sit with that discomfort and I have those tools and those tools work.

00:17:43.283 --> 00:17:46.723
But the whole reason why a couple is in your office is because they have not been able

00:17:46.723 --> 00:17:50.648
to get along well or there has been betrayal or infidelity or something like that.

00:17:50.863 --> 00:17:54.222
So of course it's going to feel awkward and of course it's going to feel uncomfortable.

00:17:54.763 --> 00:17:58.803
So that's where we need to then recognize that divorces happen.

00:17:58.803 --> 00:18:04.163
Do emotionally and physically and sexually and financially and spiritually abuse other

00:18:04.584 --> 00:18:09.265
people. And it takes a long time before people will eventually come walk through your doors.

00:18:09.643 --> 00:18:17.603
And that takes a lot of courage from them. But your job now is to, they are coming to you wanting not only advice and tools and

00:18:17.603 --> 00:18:20.968
to understand what they don't know, they don't know that they don't know.

00:18:21.688 --> 00:18:28.043
But it is our job as therapists to then help identify with your confidence, your healthy

00:18:28.043 --> 00:18:33.883
ego based on real life experience when you are seeing something that is starting to look more

00:18:33.883 --> 00:18:39.782
along the lines of those emotional abuse or the gaslighting, the emotional immaturity,

00:18:40.044 --> 00:18:44.779
and then really helping point that out to maybe the pathologically kind person.

00:18:45.238 --> 00:18:49.963
Because just throwing it up in the context of couples therapy, and this is that concept where,

00:18:50.171 --> 00:18:54.203
hey, when do you tell the narcissist they're the narcissist? Never. But if you can start

00:18:54.203 --> 00:18:58.923
identifying that here are some tools, here are the way the tools are not being used. Right back to

00:18:58.923 --> 00:19:03.803
the tools again. Did I mention the tools? I'm noticing that the tools are a challenge and then

00:19:03.803 --> 00:19:09.323
being able to pull somebody aside one-on-one and start to say, hey, here's what I'm noticing,

00:19:09.323 --> 00:19:13.003
here's what I'm seeing. And so we may have to take this a little bit in a different direction.

00:19:13.739 --> 00:19:19.083
So kind of getting back to this as a therapist, you may be pretty disheartened to start to realize

00:19:19.083 --> 00:19:23.803
that you also are a target of the manipulation or the deception because it challenges that very

00:19:23.803 --> 00:19:28.123
foundation of the trust where therapy is built and the trust that you are hoping that you will

00:19:28.123 --> 00:19:31.861
be able to establish with the couple and in the relationship with the therapist.

00:19:32.473 --> 00:19:40.413
And it becomes this kind of fine, delicate dance of unraveling the truth while remaining somewhat objective and compassionate.

00:19:41.052 --> 00:19:47.022
And it can take years of experience as a therapist and a lot of keen observation and continuous,

00:19:47.022 --> 00:19:51.302
here's the key, professional growth for therapists to develop the insight and the resilience needed

00:19:51.302 --> 00:19:54.429
to navigate these kind of relationships in these complex situations.

00:19:54.528 --> 00:20:00.398
And therapists that are listening, please, I hope that you are continuing to read and observe and do.

00:20:00.965 --> 00:20:06.662
And if you are not, then I would challenge you to do so. And this is where I go back to that concept

00:20:06.662 --> 00:20:10.327
of having spent 10 years in a career I did not care much about, that I didn't know

00:20:10.582 --> 00:20:12.569
how little I cared about it, the software industry,

00:20:13.064 --> 00:20:17.502
and then finding something that I absolutely love and is my passion, that it is, I believe,

00:20:17.502 --> 00:20:23.942
it is our job to continue to develop and to grow and to read new articles and test new theories,

00:20:24.461 --> 00:20:29.979
and look introspectively and do all of the work ourselves so that we can then show up in couples therapy

00:20:30.312 --> 00:20:35.142
and it is absolutely okay to tell a couple that, hey, here's something new that I've learned

00:20:35.142 --> 00:20:38.171
and I wanna see if we can implement this in sessions.

00:20:38.712 --> 00:20:43.519
And I think so often a therapist is so afraid of their own discomfort or of being a human being,

00:20:43.969 --> 00:20:49.541
that they just stick to this rigid set of rules or they're just a very rigid framework

00:20:49.811 --> 00:20:52.682
because they don't have other tools.

00:20:52.682 --> 00:20:57.652
They're unwilling to be vulnerable in a session and say at times, hey, I'm not sure,

00:20:57.886 --> 00:20:59.012
but let's talk about it.

00:20:59.382 --> 00:21:03.402
And I'll tell you, it's interesting. I'm reading a book on internal family systems

00:21:03.402 --> 00:21:06.808
thanks to an interview on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago with my friend, Craig Parra.

00:21:07.501 --> 00:21:11.939
And he laid out the concepts of internal family systems and parts work so beautifully,

00:21:12.380 --> 00:21:14.000
that this book is blowing my mind.

00:21:14.122 --> 00:21:16.251
It really is, it's called Altogether You.

00:21:16.665 --> 00:21:22.842
And I've already talked with a couple of couples this week on some of the concepts that I'm learning

00:21:22.842 --> 00:21:26.602
from internal family systems and how that might eventually work its way

00:21:26.602 --> 00:21:29.682
into the context around my four pillars.

00:21:29.682 --> 00:21:33.102
And it wasn't long ago, especially if you've been listening to the podcast

00:21:33.102 --> 00:21:34.722
where I learned about Marshall Rosenberg's

00:21:34.722 --> 00:21:40.982
nonviolent communication, thanks to someone who had written in and asked me about it a few times, and the concept of

00:21:40.982 --> 00:21:43.285
we observe and judge in the same frame.

00:21:43.861 --> 00:21:48.271
I'm starting to call my pre-pillar. So before we get to pillar one of assuming good intentions,

00:21:48.271 --> 00:21:52.351
or there's a reason why somebody does or says what they do, then I feel like Marshall Rosenberg's.

00:21:53.551 --> 00:21:58.671
Nonviolent communication, and especially that concept around we observe what someone's behavior

00:21:58.671 --> 00:22:04.511
is and we make a judgment in the very same frame. So, hey, that person, they didn't come give me a

00:22:04.511 --> 00:22:08.991
kiss before they went to bed, my spouse didn't. So that means they obviously are having an affair,

00:22:08.991 --> 00:22:13.391
they don't care about me. Well, no, I'm observing a behavior, I'm making a judgment. And now if I

00:22:13.391 --> 00:22:14.883
if I have a conversation with that person,

00:22:14.937 --> 00:22:16.890
and let's say that I'm going into the four pillars

00:22:17.070 --> 00:22:19.726
and I'm gonna try to assume good intentions, but if I already feel like,

00:22:20.041 --> 00:22:22.247
but I already know why they did what they did,

00:22:22.823 --> 00:22:25.586
then the game's a little rigged going in.

00:22:25.685 --> 00:22:29.991
So we have to be aware of almost this pre-pillar of separating our observation from our judgment.

00:22:29.991 --> 00:22:32.599
So we need to continue to grow as a therapist as well.

00:22:33.310 --> 00:22:36.830
So that continued education, that continued professional growth that we need to develop

00:22:36.911 --> 00:22:39.801
to help us have this insight in these couples' situations.

00:22:40.692 --> 00:22:46.431
But the difficulties do not end there. The couples themselves, they grapple with this confusion and pain, and they come in

00:22:46.431 --> 00:22:50.766
with being in a relationship, especially if it's with an emotionally immature, narcissistic partner.

00:22:51.391 --> 00:22:53.655
And they find themselves now questioning their own judgment.

00:22:53.831 --> 00:22:57.346
They feel trapped in this cycle of having hope and then disappointment.

00:22:57.751 --> 00:23:02.271
That is that intermittent reinforcement that we talked about a couple of weeks ago.

00:23:02.271 --> 00:23:08.251
And therapy becomes a lifeline. It's supposed to be the safe place where they can confront their doubts and their fears

00:23:08.251 --> 00:23:13.289
and learn new tools and address the secrets that they have been keeping in the shadows.

00:23:13.851 --> 00:23:18.565
But as they express those to a therapist who has a lot of experience on the couch, even

00:23:18.811 --> 00:23:22.131
if they're using the right tools, and then their partner takes that information and over

00:23:22.131 --> 00:23:28.411
time manipulates them with it, then it is our job as therapists to be able to help the

00:23:28.411 --> 00:23:33.112
person that is desperately clinging to hope and trying to do the work and watching it

00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:37.891
backfire to let them know that you are not the problem at this point.

00:23:38.595 --> 00:23:42.845
And I'll get to this, because in the women's Facebook group, there's so many messages,

00:23:42.845 --> 00:23:46.125
because I put out a message and I'll read the message here in a minute.

00:23:46.355 --> 00:23:49.325
But I said, I want to do an episode on this for therapists, but I also want people that

00:23:49.325 --> 00:23:53.645
are in couples therapy, if they feel crazy, that I just want them to know and hear enough

00:23:53.645 --> 00:23:57.725
stories where they can say, just like when I do the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes,

00:23:57.959 --> 00:24:00.445
where they know, oh my gosh, that's what's happening in my therapeutic setting.

00:24:00.445 --> 00:24:02.045
That's what happens in my therapy.

00:24:02.253 --> 00:24:07.005
And I want you to be able to self-advocate and be able to try to have these conversations

00:24:07.005 --> 00:24:11.005
with your therapist and your therapist just says, hey, I can't do that. We've got a no secrets

00:24:11.005 --> 00:24:15.405
policy. You tell me, I got to tell your spouse. Then I don't feel like that might be the right

00:24:15.405 --> 00:24:20.205
fit for you. I'll be very bold in saying that. And again, these are just my opinions. This is

00:24:20.205 --> 00:24:25.145
not to be excused as now you must do this as if I am your therapist, because I am not. I am a

00:24:25.405 --> 00:24:30.125
podcast host who happens to be a therapist as well. So I really want to go then a little bit

00:24:30.125 --> 00:24:34.285
deeper. I want to explore the challenges that are faced by therapists and couples that's happening

00:24:34.285 --> 00:24:38.125
in couples therapy. I'm going to share some stories from experienced therapists who have

00:24:38.125 --> 00:24:44.605
weathered this storm. I want to give insight on this delicate balance between having compassion

00:24:44.605 --> 00:24:50.525
and then setting boundaries. And I want to shed a little bit light as well on the resilience and

00:24:50.525 --> 00:24:56.445
courage that are demonstrated by the pathologically kind person who is continually trying to show up

00:24:56.445 --> 00:25:00.812
and improve the relationship and who will walk out of a couple session and unfortunately.

00:25:01.227 --> 00:25:03.801
Hear oftentimes that I can't believe you threw me under the bus.

00:25:04.116 --> 00:25:08.045
Like that's horrible. I can't believe that because that is not going to continue to be

00:25:08.045 --> 00:25:12.605
a safe place for that person to open up in couples therapy. So let me do one more,

00:25:12.605 --> 00:25:16.205
a little bit of setup. So I mentioned a thing called a no secrets policy.

00:25:16.205 --> 00:25:19.165
I want to explain that a little bit. And I want to turn to an article from the

00:25:19.165 --> 00:25:23.805
simplepractice.com blog. Simple practice is the practice management software that I happen to use.

00:25:24.596 --> 00:25:29.165
And a lot of therapists do use. And there's a person there that I actually reached out to him

00:25:29.165 --> 00:25:33.165
a while ago, I never heard back. So if this gets its way, it finds its way back to Ben Caldwell.

00:25:33.293 --> 00:25:38.205
Ben, I would love to have you on the virtual couch because Ben's a clinical psychologist and

00:25:38.205 --> 00:25:42.124
he writes a lot of test prep material for people that are going to take the licensing exams.

00:25:42.565 --> 00:25:47.565
But I have started to say that whenever I start to develop my own thoughts or opinions that seem a

00:25:47.565 --> 00:25:52.525
little bit counter to the things that you learn coming out of grad school based on your own

00:25:52.525 --> 00:25:57.131
experience, that then Ben will post an article that I think will address something that I've

00:25:57.405 --> 00:25:59.327
I've maybe even started implementing in my own practice,

00:25:59.605 --> 00:26:04.245
but I'm not out there shouting it from the rooftops because I often myself feel like.

00:26:04.936 --> 00:26:07.085
Okay, I feel like I'm a little bit alone in this approach.

00:26:07.085 --> 00:26:10.245
So this is one of those situations where when I read this article from Ben,

00:26:10.245 --> 00:26:15.945
it's from July 31st of 2022, so a little over a year ago, I felt very heard, I felt very seen.

00:26:16.445 --> 00:26:19.879
So Ben said, for years, my clinical specialty has been working with couples and couples therapy.

00:26:20.285 --> 00:26:22.310
And he said, when I started, I had a no secrets policy.

00:26:22.845 --> 00:26:26.325
My no secrets policy was this, anything that one partner would tell me individually,

00:26:26.325 --> 00:26:28.197
I reserve the right to bring up in the couple setting.

00:26:28.693 --> 00:26:32.245
And that is what we learn. That's what you learn as a budding new couples therapist,

00:26:32.245 --> 00:26:35.264
especially coming out of grad school when you go to some of your first trainings.

00:26:35.949 --> 00:26:39.859
And he said, I hope that this policy would make it clear that I saw the relationship as my client,

00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:44.419
which I have made a very big deal about when I have started with new couples in the past,

00:26:44.419 --> 00:26:48.239
where, hey, this isn't individual therapy, the relationship itself is the client.

00:26:48.239 --> 00:26:54.619
So I, as the therapist, owe my duty and my responsibilities to do what is best for the relationship.

00:26:55.564 --> 00:26:59.659
So he said, keeping individual secrets, like affairs, substance abuse, gambling, or anything else,

00:26:59.659 --> 00:27:03.099
would easily undermine the therapy or put me in an awkward position.

00:27:03.099 --> 00:27:04.810
And he said, I wanted nothing to do with secrets.

00:27:05.404 --> 00:27:09.581
And he said, this is the philosophy that many instructors encourage new couples therapists to adopt.

00:27:10.562 --> 00:27:14.244
But he says, here's the problem with secrets. Keeping an individual secret is awkward at best,

00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:16.603
but it represents triangulation at its worst.

00:27:17.332 --> 00:27:20.339
It's also difficult on a practical level, because he said, once you start keeping

00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:23.652
individual confidences, you have to remember what information you learn from each partner

00:27:24.021 --> 00:27:27.279
that is expected to remain confidential, and you have to keep track of that

00:27:27.379 --> 00:27:28.909
for every couple that you see.

00:27:29.953 --> 00:27:33.519
So he said, for me, the concern about the clinical impact of secrets took a backseat

00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.101
to the concern that I would simply screw it up, that I wouldn't be able to remember it all

00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:38.959
and that that individual secret would spill out.

00:27:38.959 --> 00:27:43.419
And I can understand that and I feel that as well because, and I think Ben gets to this later on

00:27:43.419 --> 00:27:47.499
in the article, but that is something that would be a fear until it's not,

00:27:47.619 --> 00:27:50.235
until you start to recognize that you start to trust

00:27:50.419 --> 00:27:54.223
that if you are a therapist that is, I feel like good at what they do,

00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:59.819
that you really can take and honor and hold to those secrets and even if you have to have a special way

00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:02.136
to note those things or whatever that would look like,

00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:06.817
then is the, well, I'm worried I'll blow it, just a story that your own brain is telling you

00:28:06.999 --> 00:28:12.525
because that's this new area or there's a lot of uncertainty around that as a therapist.

00:28:12.959 --> 00:28:16.306
Because this is where he says, over time though, my philosophy on this has changed.

00:28:16.479 --> 00:28:19.304
He said, I'm not necessarily suggesting that yours should as well,

00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:23.659
but he said, we each need to find the secrets policy that works best for our practices,

00:28:23.659 --> 00:28:26.244
but I hope that my own journey on this can be useful to know.

00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:30.439
So he said, withholding information. He said, when I had my client sign a no secrets policy,

00:28:30.439 --> 00:28:31.475
they still had secrets.

00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.659
Only now, in addition to keeping those secrets from each other, they were also keeping

00:28:35.659 --> 00:28:38.595
those same secrets from me." Very powerful statement that he says there.

00:28:39.163 --> 00:28:42.159
"'Anything that either partner might have been willing to tell me about in confidence,

00:28:42.159 --> 00:28:45.275
but not in front of their partner, became something that I was never going to know.

00:28:45.939 --> 00:28:50.649
As a couples therapist, I want to know, because that's what I need to be able to help.

00:28:51.523 --> 00:28:58.103
So he said, for example, despite strong research showing a high prevalence of violence among couples, very few ever reported a history of violence to me.

00:28:58.553 --> 00:29:01.992
He said affairs, when finally revealed, blindsided me as well as the other partner.

00:29:02.685 --> 00:29:05.314
He said I kept starting therapy without critical information.

00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:17.071
So, and that right there is if somebody is coming in and they're saying, I am being physically abused or I'm being emotionally abused, sexually abused, but I'm here and it took me forever to get here.

00:29:17.373 --> 00:29:21.573
So if I was saying, okay, yeah, I can't keep that secret.

00:29:21.573 --> 00:29:27.856
We need to talk about that in therapy, then okay, I now know with somewhat certainty and assurity

00:29:27.946 --> 00:29:31.988
that that person is gonna think, oh my gosh, I can't go to anybody.

00:29:32.133 --> 00:29:37.947
I am unsafe because if now you bring this up in therapy, I absolutely know that I will pay for this.

00:29:38.133 --> 00:29:39.307
And that is absolutely true.

00:29:40.333 --> 00:29:45.253
So he said a different approach to couples therapy. He said, my policy now is a little bit more nuanced

00:29:45.253 --> 00:29:46.634
and it gives me more freedom of movement.

00:29:47.229 --> 00:29:52.573
And I think that you as a therapist need to have the confidence to have that more nuanced

00:29:52.573 --> 00:30:01.146
policy and allow you to have that freedom of movement. But that, you know, Spider-Man or with great knowledge comes great responsibility.

00:30:01.677 --> 00:30:06.893
But what an honor that you have as a therapist to be able to help somebody navigate the

00:30:06.893 --> 00:30:10.893
really difficult and murky waters of relationships with a narcissist or an emotionally

00:30:10.893 --> 00:30:15.773
immature person. It is truly a gift to be able to work with somebody who is finally

00:30:15.838 --> 00:30:20.312
feeling like they are waking up to this emotional immaturity in their relationship and seeking help.

00:30:21.093 --> 00:30:26.333
And sometimes that help is masked in the couple's therapy, because they aren't even allowed

00:30:26.333 --> 00:30:30.133
to go get individual therapy, because if they are truly in an emotionally immature narcissistic

00:30:30.133 --> 00:30:33.813
relationship and they are being sequestered, they've already been cut off probably from

00:30:33.813 --> 00:30:37.371
friends, from family, we don't talk about our business, we don't air our dirty laundry.

00:30:38.213 --> 00:30:43.653
So what a wonderful opportunity you have to see and understand what that pathological

00:30:43.653 --> 00:30:48.553
kind person's going through, and sometimes having to use the couples therapy as the muse

00:30:48.553 --> 00:30:52.453
to be able to help that individual know how to navigate what they're dealing with or what

00:30:52.453 --> 00:30:53.161
they're going through.

00:30:54.196 --> 00:30:58.175
So he said, now clients agree at the beginning of couples therapy that I have the right but

00:30:58.373 --> 00:31:01.767
not the obligation to share anything that they share with me individually.

00:31:02.281 --> 00:31:05.980
I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and will not reveal.

00:31:07.106 --> 00:31:18.395
So that it's interesting. So I think if you heard that first sentence where he said, I have the right, but not the obligation to share anything that they share with me individually, it may sound like, hey, I might spring this on you out of nowhere if I feel like it's the right thing to do.

00:31:19.007 --> 00:31:23.742
But then he said, I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and not will not reveal.

00:31:24.516 --> 00:31:29.008
And therapists, if you're listening, that, again, is a powerful way to start a couple session.

00:31:29.665 --> 00:31:34.316
And what you're saying to your clients is that if I recognize that there's something that I feel is

00:31:34.316 --> 00:31:39.996
not a good thing that is showing up in the relationship, then I may pull one of you aside

00:31:39.996 --> 00:31:45.374
and I may express my clinical opinion. And I want that to be something that you will know that you

00:31:45.596 --> 00:31:49.276
don't know what you don't know. And if I am going to do that, I'm going to come at it from a healthy

00:31:49.276 --> 00:31:53.916
ego. This is something that I see because this is what I do." He said, when I made that change,

00:31:53.916 --> 00:31:57.996
the couples I work with immediately became more honest with me. And right from the assessment

00:31:57.996 --> 00:32:02.956
stage. He said, I learned that substance abuse, violent arguments, affairs, I learned about those

00:32:02.956 --> 00:32:06.396
early on, often from individuals who wanted desperately for their partners to know without

00:32:06.396 --> 00:32:11.121
blowing up the relationship. And I appreciate the way Ben's saying that, but I also feel like I go

00:32:11.356 --> 00:32:16.396
back to the, or I have individuals who desperately wanted help, and this is the only way that they're

00:32:16.396 --> 00:32:20.716
able to finally get to talk to somebody. So with that knowledge in hand, he said,

00:32:20.716 --> 00:32:24.471
I could work with the person keeping the secret on how and when they should inform their partner.

00:32:25.065 --> 00:32:30.368
And I would add, or if. And what I could do to plan treatment in a way that could repair their bond

00:32:30.719 --> 00:32:37.516
or help them regain their own sense of self and get out of the negative cycle of emotional abuse

00:32:37.516 --> 00:32:44.076
and the gaslighting. So he said, the newer policy asks more of me to be sure. It requires me to own

00:32:44.076 --> 00:32:49.092
complete responsibility for the clinical decisions I make around secrets. And it does. And again,

00:32:49.164 --> 00:32:52.876
if you are confident in your clinical skills and abilities, because this is something you

00:32:52.876 --> 00:32:57.756
like to do when you're continually seeking education or improvement as a therapist.

00:32:58.419 --> 00:33:03.116
Then this is where I want to tell you to trust your own process and that if it is something that

00:33:03.116 --> 00:33:08.956
you do like and appreciate and you're seeking that additional information, that then this will

00:33:08.956 --> 00:33:13.676
not seem as scary to you as a therapist. That is, as a matter of fact, you will start to recognize

00:33:13.676 --> 00:33:18.956
real distinct patterns that you see in couples. And I'll keep going back to the what an opportunity,

00:33:18.956 --> 00:33:25.036
what a joy to be able to provide that support and safety for somebody that is finally looking for help.

00:33:24.219 --> 00:33:26.785
He said, sometimes it means pretending not to know something I'm aware of.

00:33:26.884 --> 00:33:30.229
The very position that a no secrets policy is designed to help therapists avoid.

00:33:30.845 --> 00:33:34.549
And it means that on rare occasions, I have indeed simply made a mistake.

00:33:34.549 --> 00:33:37.417
And he said, I've revealed something before the person with the secret was ready.

00:33:38.236 --> 00:33:44.309
And, and I hear him and that, that can be a thing that happens, but it is something that rarely happens.

00:33:44.309 --> 00:33:48.149
So if you are a therapist that is trying to start to work with this more nuanced approach,

00:33:48.149 --> 00:33:51.109
because you feel like you can help couples, you almost have to have that acceptance that,

00:33:51.109 --> 00:33:55.949
yeah, that could happen. So that I'm not continually worried about building all these boundaries

00:33:55.949 --> 00:34:00.529
so far around the fact that it could happen that I don't even get back to helping the

00:34:00.529 --> 00:34:05.209
client based off of the knowledge that I have. He said, my treatment has also grown more

00:34:05.209 --> 00:34:09.269
successful precisely because I now get critical information that needs to be a part of my.

00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:15.749
Treatment planning. And I testify to that. Ben speaks the truth. So he said, new levels

00:34:15.749 --> 00:34:19.149
of respect. And one other thing has changed that he said, I didn't expect. Clients respect

00:34:19.149 --> 00:34:22.469
me more. When I brought these decisions under the umbrella of clinical judgment rather than

00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:26.769
trying to address them through a blanket policy, clients saw me as more professional and more

00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:30.869
willing to fully embrace the professional role that I was already in.

00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:34.849
And that freedom of movement, he said that a some secrets policy provides me, made me

00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:39.089
anxious at first, but he said it also made me better. And I would echo that and say that

00:34:39.089 --> 00:34:42.769
over time, that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you based on the gradual

00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:48.069
residue of lived experience as a therapist, then it does start to feel more empowering

00:34:48.069 --> 00:34:51.269
and you start to become more comfortable with it because you start to see that you are helping

00:34:51.269 --> 00:34:55.269
people in a new way that you never could have helped them before had you just maintained this

00:34:55.269 --> 00:35:01.189
just flat generic basic out of grad school freckle face falling off the turnip truck therapist of a

00:35:01.189 --> 00:35:06.069
kid who is saying, hey, I can't, I can't have you tell me that we got to bring that up in couples

00:35:06.069 --> 00:35:11.829
therapy because you're going to lose that client. So for the next little bit here, it looks like

00:35:11.829 --> 00:35:16.069
this episode is going to be one of the longer ones. We're going to dive into the private women's

00:35:16.069 --> 00:35:19.589
Facebook group, and we're going to read a lot of examples of what people have experienced

00:35:19.589 --> 00:35:24.149
in couples therapy. So let's get to that. Okay, in group, I said, Hey, everybody, on last week's

00:35:24.149 --> 00:35:28.069
group call, we talked a little bit about how negative working with a therapist who doesn't

00:35:28.069 --> 00:35:34.149
have experience or understand working with the narcissistic or emotionally immature person in

00:35:34.149 --> 00:35:37.349
relationships is. That is a horrible sentence, but I think that you can get the point.

00:35:38.146 --> 00:35:42.469
I'm absolutely saying to my fellow therapists, a legit bless your heart. I shared a bit in the

00:35:42.469 --> 00:35:45.987
the call about how I didn't know what I didn't know when I was initially working with couples.

00:35:46.629 --> 00:35:50.407
So I would love to be able to help other therapists possibly do a little self-confrontation and,

00:35:50.949 --> 00:35:52.532
get there sooner rather than later.

00:35:53.049 --> 00:35:57.669
So I shared that I am working on an episode to be able to share with your therapist or

00:35:57.669 --> 00:35:59.535
or even send it to a new therapist ahead of time.

00:36:00.112 --> 00:36:04.161
Of course, you are absolutely welcome to share as much as you would like, but I would love

00:36:04.161 --> 00:36:05.761
to hear any questions that you have.

00:36:05.761 --> 00:36:10.221
Also your experiences, both negative and positive, of therapist interactions, whether in individual

00:36:10.221 --> 00:36:15.227
or couples therapy sessions, in or out of sessions, communication with, et cetera, on this topic.

00:36:15.761 --> 00:36:19.241
I said no pressure, of course, but this is one of those where, how about we change the

00:36:19.241 --> 00:36:22.921
world? And I said, okay, that's a bit much, but I think you can see where I am going.

00:36:23.392 --> 00:36:29.321
So there are a lot of comments. There are pushing 50 comments, so we're going to take some time and I will read.

00:36:29.321 --> 00:36:33.301
I won't necessarily comment on all of them, but I'll have some thoughts, I'm sure.

00:36:33.301 --> 00:36:38.861
And I would love to get your thoughts. And this is one of those where if you can email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com with

00:36:38.938 --> 00:36:41.641
your, if you have experiences, that would be wonderful.

00:36:41.882 --> 00:36:46.101
If you're a therapist and you, and you take offense, then I understand. I hear you.

00:36:46.653 --> 00:36:50.461
I would love your, your questions or your thoughts as well, because this is a topic

00:36:50.461 --> 00:36:52.361
that isn't addressed very often.

00:36:52.361 --> 00:36:57.521
And I think that it is just very important to start the, start the dialogue, start the conversations.

00:36:57.521 --> 00:37:02.121
Permission for me to share these from the people in the group. So the first

00:37:02.121 --> 00:37:05.381
person said we went through three therapists, all women, that he was able to

00:37:05.381 --> 00:37:08.521
charm and convince that I was the crazy one. We would leave therapy sessions with

00:37:08.521 --> 00:37:11.961
me in tears, not speaking to each other because he would use them to

00:37:11.961 --> 00:37:15.441
triangulate that he was normal and I was depressed, that I had mommy issues, that I

00:37:15.441 --> 00:37:19.521
was crazy. He would go together as a couple just long enough to convince them

00:37:19.521 --> 00:37:23.001
of this and then would say I need to start going on my own because it's a me

00:37:23.001 --> 00:37:26.741
issue, not an us issue. In full transparency and disclosure, this person

00:37:26.741 --> 00:37:30.901
is somebody that I've worked with, and they said you were the first therapist that figured out what

00:37:30.901 --> 00:37:37.141
was really going on, and he even had you convinced before meeting me that I possibly had borderline

00:37:37.141 --> 00:37:41.861
personality disorder. And I appreciate starting off with this one because this is one of those

00:37:41.861 --> 00:37:46.981
situations where when I first started meeting with the husband came in first, and then as he

00:37:46.981 --> 00:37:54.421
did describe the wife that something did smell a bit off, but he was very convincing. And so I

00:37:54.421 --> 00:37:55.381
I commented on this one.

00:37:55.381 --> 00:38:00.381
I said, boy, if I knew what you were talking about, I was pulling the confidentiality card there.

00:38:00.381 --> 00:38:03.021
I said, I would admit that I forgot about that part before meeting you.

00:38:03.021 --> 00:38:04.541
Again, purely hypothetical, of course.

00:38:05.061 --> 00:38:08.781
But after that, it was pretty clear textbook. And while I imagine the therapist that you were speaking of

00:38:08.781 --> 00:38:12.517
still sometimes feels bad about certain things played out the way they did.

00:38:13.075 --> 00:38:16.805
I sometimes wonder that if those experiences, and again, while I wish they didn't happen

00:38:16.805 --> 00:38:20.405
at all, but they are almost necessary as a way to get to that point where the client

00:38:20.405 --> 00:38:21.565
finally has had enough.

00:38:21.565 --> 00:38:25.205
And I say that because, again, I don't think people going into couples therapy initially

00:38:25.205 --> 00:38:30.365
think he has a personality disorder. So it's imperative to have the therapist know what to look for and what to do with

00:38:30.365 --> 00:38:31.530
it when they see it.

00:38:31.885 --> 00:38:38.325
And then I, of course, had to be hilarious in the post and say, thank you to this person.

00:38:38.325 --> 00:38:39.623
That therapist sure sounds amazing.

00:38:40.085 --> 00:38:43.485
He also sounds very bald, and I would imagine he probably snorts too, but he definitely

00:38:43.485 --> 00:38:45.141
sounds like he knows his stuff.

00:38:45.445 --> 00:38:49.405
And what I was referring to is that even as we were starting to put the pieces together

00:38:49.405 --> 00:38:54.485
and he was starting to show up incredibly narcissistic and incredibly emotionally immature,

00:38:54.485 --> 00:38:59.205
when we were trying to get to effective and healthy couples communication skills, I'm

00:38:59.205 --> 00:39:02.505
laying out the tools, the four pillars of a connected conversation.

00:39:02.505 --> 00:39:07.905
And he was one that would use these tools and weaponize those tools against her.

00:39:07.905 --> 00:39:13.265
Of those people that would say a lot of, you know, I feel like she is crazy. And then he

00:39:13.265 --> 00:39:17.105
would look at me and almost think, well, I said, I feel so I think I'm playing by the

00:39:17.105 --> 00:39:21.485
rules and again, full transparency. And I think this is something that I think is important

00:39:21.485 --> 00:39:26.372
for somebody listening as well as a therapist that is experienced, that is working with couples.

00:39:26.825 --> 00:39:31.345
When I give an example of someone coming in and then they are saying, when we're doing

00:39:31.345 --> 00:39:35.865
the four pillars where they're saying the wife says, I don't like a, you know, it's

00:39:35.865 --> 00:39:40.605
What's hard for me is when he makes fun of, let's just say, a particular hairstyle that I wear.

00:39:40.605 --> 00:39:43.445
And then we say, okay, take me on your train of thought. Let's hear more.

00:39:43.445 --> 00:39:48.765
And then this person shares that they have always been self-conscious about this particular

00:39:48.765 --> 00:39:52.613
their hair and what that looks like and how they've been teased and made fun of.

00:39:53.045 --> 00:39:54.162
But then over time...

00:39:54.702 --> 00:39:58.052
Then, you know, he would continue to make jokes about her hair when they were in social

00:39:58.052 --> 00:40:03.947
situations and he started by the, no, it's, it's, it's not a big deal. I, I'm just kidding.

00:40:04.112 --> 00:40:11.086
And that is breaking my pillar too, as telling her that her, she is wrong and that her experience is incorrect.

00:40:11.272 --> 00:40:15.912
So even as we started to go with the framework and then we, we went on her train of thought,

00:40:15.912 --> 00:40:20.272
she talked about how difficult that had been honestly, since, since childhood, then he

00:40:20.272 --> 00:40:25.111
said, okay, you know what I am, I'm truly sorry. I will never, I will never make those jokes again.

00:40:25.472 --> 00:40:29.712
I won't." And at that point, about two or three weeks later, they're back in the office.

00:40:29.712 --> 00:40:31.917
And then she said, he did.

00:40:32.112 --> 00:40:36.352
He made the jokes again about my hair. And then he said, yeah, but we were on a cruise though.

00:40:36.352 --> 00:40:38.426
So we're never going to see those people again.

00:40:38.612 --> 00:40:43.305
So it was one of those situations where he said, I will never do that again until he does it again.

00:40:43.935 --> 00:40:50.132
Okay. Here is, this was a little bit longer. This is one of the top contributors, a moderator on the site.

00:40:50.132 --> 00:40:54.332
She said that she really loves this idea and she had posted this on another part of the

00:40:54.332 --> 00:40:56.214
group, but she's going to add more to it.

00:40:56.652 --> 00:40:59.972
So she said, couple's therapy was abuse with a witness for me.

00:40:59.972 --> 00:41:01.156
I wasn't safe at all.

00:41:01.632 --> 00:41:07.062
The therapist didn't help me at all. The only time I felt her support was when we'd been going for six or seven months weekly.

00:41:07.612 --> 00:41:11.419
And again, the session started with him complaining over how hard everything was for him.

00:41:12.112 --> 00:41:16.019
She said, I just lost it. I couldn't take it anymore. I raged in her office and I even hit a table.

00:41:16.712 --> 00:41:20.502
And I said, you are not doing anything to help yourself or me in the relationship.

00:41:20.835 --> 00:41:23.644
I am done. I can't continue this because it's not for real.

00:41:24.193 --> 00:41:29.208
I felt so horrible. I sent her a mail to tell her how sorry I was for getting so angry and hitting her table.

00:41:29.666 --> 00:41:34.272
And that's when she said she thought that I was so tough and she understood that I would

00:41:34.272 --> 00:41:38.312
have needed the support and therapy, but I never got that though.

00:41:38.312 --> 00:41:41.272
Whenever I spoke, which she said honestly wasn't that much because it was mostly him

00:41:41.272 --> 00:41:44.826
and his issues, he would turn it back on himself and how hard it was for him.

00:41:45.322 --> 00:41:48.211
I now know that there's a reason why they say you shouldn't go into therapy with these

00:41:48.352 --> 00:41:51.312
people." We went through three therapists during our crisis.

00:41:51.312 --> 00:41:54.232
They all seemed to think I was mostly the problem because I was sensitive and I was

00:41:54.232 --> 00:41:58.222
desperate. He came off as the hero for showing up in therapy for doing everything for us.

00:41:58.692 --> 00:42:01.454
His logic, his rationalizations had them every time.

00:42:02.072 --> 00:42:05.261
And he would cry a lot, which melted their hearts. And I looked hysterical.

00:42:05.912 --> 00:42:13.232
He was a vulnerable man, which we all love, right? She said if they saw something without ever calling him out or telling me, I really, really

00:42:13.232 --> 00:42:17.712
wish they would have done so, because it worsened. It really worsened my situation and the feeling

00:42:17.712 --> 00:42:22.292
of me being the problem of losing my reality. I also really wish therapists would know to

00:42:22.292 --> 00:42:27.072
look for and discover the patterns, not only of overt abuse, but the very subtle covert

00:42:27.072 --> 00:42:31.552
abuse. I think if they would be able to grasp when someone just doesn't see another person's

00:42:31.552 --> 00:42:37.049
perspective and doesn't have empathy, that would sure help a lot. And if they would need to know how to spot.

00:42:37.805 --> 00:42:41.892
A true lack of empathy versus just less empathy because of a lot of resentment.

00:42:42.486 --> 00:42:46.215
I think that was what they would think in my case. She said, you know, this is what happens

00:42:46.215 --> 00:42:50.156
when a couple's in crisis, when there's conflict. Well, sometimes it's not just that, it's deeper,

00:42:50.215 --> 00:42:53.964
it's much more harmful. She said, I also wish therapists would stop thinking it's always 50-50.

00:42:54.585 --> 00:42:58.775
There are always two in the relationship, etc. She said, yes, in healthy couples, this is mostly

00:42:58.775 --> 00:43:02.975
true, but in toxic relationships, it's not. She said, I'm not saying it's 100% on one part,

00:43:03.587 --> 00:43:08.455
But it's just very, very unbalanced. And no matter how much of the relationship a person owns and

00:43:08.455 --> 00:43:13.255
takes accountability for, nothing changes. And it has often come to a place where the rational

00:43:13.255 --> 00:43:17.655
person has taken so much responsibility that it would be unhealthy for them to keep doing that

00:43:17.655 --> 00:43:21.095
because it only makes it worse and lifts responsibility off of the transactional.

00:43:21.709 --> 00:43:27.815
Person who is unable to take any accountability. Also, she said the therapist should be very

00:43:27.815 --> 00:43:33.095
careful to notice in what way they say things when taking their part of the blame, because

00:43:33.095 --> 00:43:37.265
it mostly is something that just isn't real. She said, like, sorry for what happened or

00:43:37.335 --> 00:43:41.655
that type of thing. She said, I'll stop here. I've got so much to say. And I did. I said,

00:43:41.655 --> 00:43:45.655
thank you. And you are writing the script for me. Thank you. I'll address the patterns as well as

00:43:45.655 --> 00:43:50.615
the 50-50, I said, 50-50 vibe. It's definitely not even remotely close to that. I said, sometimes I

00:43:50.615 --> 00:43:54.375
think the only percentage points that can be given to the pathologically kind person, and I will add

00:43:54.375 --> 00:43:58.695
whether it's the male or the female are simply there because the person is continuing to exist

00:43:58.695 --> 00:44:03.479
in that space because they don't have the tools or the knowledge to gain percentage points.

00:44:04.015 --> 00:44:07.975
So by that, I mean they wonder if they almost have to get to 50-50 to be able to exist if

00:44:07.975 --> 00:44:12.575
that's what they feel is best for them or their mental health or their kids."

00:44:12.575 --> 00:44:15.615
And another person jumped in and said, now they said it's their turn to say they felt

00:44:15.812 --> 00:44:18.504
like they could have written this and thanks for spelling it out so well.

00:44:19.035 --> 00:44:22.204
And then another person said, I agree how therapy was treated like 50-50 with us both,

00:44:22.690 --> 00:44:25.850
needing to find a win-win because that's what it's like in healthy relationships, but it,

00:44:26.295 --> 00:44:30.360
only made me feel crazier as I tried again and again to implement what I was asked to do in therapy.

00:44:31.215 --> 00:44:34.213
Another person jumped in and said, we had a therapist for a long time before we were married.

00:44:34.815 --> 00:44:37.835
She said, I'm actually Facebook friends with her now, and I've been so tempted to message

00:44:37.835 --> 00:44:42.135
her and to see if she ever noticed abuse or thought that I was the narcissist or emotionally

00:44:42.135 --> 00:44:44.323
immature. She said, I haven't done it yet, but I'm curious.

00:44:44.895 --> 00:44:47.374
And she said, it's been a long time, so she probably doesn't remember.

00:44:47.935 --> 00:44:51.254
And I have a note to sell for the podcast in my response to her.

00:44:51.596 --> 00:44:55.255
I said, I know that I probably don't remember everybody I've worked with.

00:44:55.255 --> 00:44:58.175
That would be difficult, but I can't lie, I have at times wanted to reach back out to

00:44:58.402 --> 00:45:03.095
the people I worked with in couples therapy early on in my practice, where now I do know

00:45:03.095 --> 00:45:04.855
what I didn't know then.

00:45:04.855 --> 00:45:08.080
And I have almost wanted to share that in an episode or two.

00:45:08.575 --> 00:45:13.904
So I said, note to self for podcasts. One of the problems is that even new therapists occasionally end up working with couples.

00:45:14.455 --> 00:45:18.117
And I remember having one or two couples a week and feeling like that was a lot.

00:45:18.735 --> 00:45:22.855
And when you don't have the reps in or the training, you're honestly doing more of simply

00:45:22.855 --> 00:45:27.452
trying to help them to hear about each other and then validate them for coming in.

00:45:27.722 --> 00:45:31.155
And I worry at this point in my career that when a therapist is still new or doesn't have

00:45:31.155 --> 00:45:36.195
a lot of experience or training that they are in essence almost wanting validation themselves.

00:45:37.112 --> 00:45:40.482
That they were a good therapist by trying to help the couple feel good about the session,

00:45:40.632 --> 00:45:44.562
regardless of what happened. And so the therapist often may not be looking for,

00:45:44.562 --> 00:45:48.162
unfortunately, the red flags. They may think that they are doing the couple a favor by pointing out

00:45:48.383 --> 00:45:52.962
the positives, and then darn near leading the narcissist to water by encouraging him or her

00:45:52.962 --> 00:45:57.122
to say certain things. And again, I think this may be more about the therapist not willing to

00:45:57.122 --> 00:46:01.842
sit with their own discomfort, followed closely by the therapist possibly wanting validation.

00:46:02.705 --> 00:46:06.722
And then somebody chimed in and said, isn't part of it, the emotional abuse and narcissism is kind

00:46:06.722 --> 00:46:12.482
of a new concept. She said, I haven't heard of it before in the last few years. And I really do,

00:46:12.563 --> 00:46:16.482
I understand that. And I feel like this is one of those things where once that someone is now,

00:46:17.109 --> 00:46:21.202
they are now more aware of it in their relationship than it is that confirmation bias.

00:46:21.202 --> 00:46:25.442
And they start to notice that the more posts, they start to notice more people talking about

00:46:25.442 --> 00:46:30.242
emotional maturity or narcissism. But I do feel like it is, it has gained a lot of ground and

00:46:30.242 --> 00:46:34.456
traction. And as a person who literally has a podcast called waking up to narcissism, I have

00:46:34.520 --> 00:46:39.422
been often told, well, you know, you must think everybody's a narcissist, which then

00:46:39.422 --> 00:46:44.502
I appreciate the judgment by others and then have to defend their view of me, which isn't

00:46:44.611 --> 00:46:50.862
very helpful. But I do believe that there's a lot more being talked about in the world

00:46:50.862 --> 00:46:54.622
of emotional immaturity and narcissism. And I do wonder, I'm just going on my train of

00:46:54.622 --> 00:46:59.702
thought that concept of I know currently I must have looked at some headphones on social

00:46:59.702 --> 00:47:05.322
media because now all of my ads are headphones and hey dude shoes and knockoffs of hey dude

00:47:05.322 --> 00:47:07.765
shoes because I really do enjoy wearing those are very comfortable.

00:47:08.908 --> 00:47:13.502
But that curated content of sorts that I do wonder if somebody is looking at more and

00:47:13.502 --> 00:47:17.722
more things around narcissism that they are going to continue to find more posts and more

00:47:17.722 --> 00:47:23.162
recommended posts about narcissism because there are plenty of posts about narcissism.

00:47:23.456 --> 00:47:28.742
Super quick train of thought tangent, I've had on multiple occasions where there's been

00:47:28.742 --> 00:47:34.062
a shared computer or shared account between a narcissist or a really emotionally immature

00:47:34.062 --> 00:47:36.622
person and their spouse or their partner.

00:47:36.622 --> 00:47:40.749
And then all of a sudden the person, the pathologically kind person comes into sessions and says,

00:47:41.217 --> 00:47:47.182
hey, is it weird that I'm getting a ton of dating ads for dating sites, dating apps?

00:47:47.182 --> 00:47:51.422
And it is because their partner is looking at dating websites.

00:47:51.422 --> 00:47:55.622
That ends up coming out over and over again because of that curated content.

00:47:55.622 --> 00:48:01.499
She then did jump in and they were commenting and said, I have had this thought about the last therapist that treated us.

00:48:02.062 --> 00:48:04.956
She said, I know she's a great therapist, but still her therapy.

00:48:05.822 --> 00:48:11.382
She felt was a bit abusive. She said, I've wanted so many times to reach out and tell her what it was like for me.

00:48:11.382 --> 00:48:13.959
I fear it though, because it could be taken as criticism.

00:48:14.302 --> 00:48:17.862
I heard a therapist say that he had a person reach out like that and he changed

00:48:17.862 --> 00:48:19.486
work and he grew and he learned.

00:48:19.981 --> 00:48:24.851
And I really believe that is, again, one of those things where is the therapist doing their own work

00:48:24.851 --> 00:48:27.021
and are they willing to self-confront and grow?

00:48:27.191 --> 00:48:31.486
And a lot of therapists, the joke for us is that we get into therapy to fix ourselves,

00:48:31.591 --> 00:48:33.385
but then we don't even acknowledge or know that.

00:48:33.754 --> 00:48:35.708
But then it turns out that's pretty spot on.

00:48:36.131 --> 00:48:41.055
But then I feel like that version of to heal myself is to get the validation I never got.

00:48:41.191 --> 00:48:44.674
Then you can start to see how the therapist is going to say, hey, I'm the therapist.

00:48:44.831 --> 00:48:47.171
I don't need your feedback.

00:48:47.483 --> 00:48:50.913
And I have honestly heard many of those stories. many of those stories.

00:48:51.669 --> 00:48:55.411
But as a therapist, I would like to think that I need to model the things that I preach.

00:48:55.411 --> 00:48:58.330
So if somebody is saying, hey, here's what I'm noticing or what I'm seeing,

00:48:58.731 --> 00:49:03.431
then I need to then say, okay, I wanna hear more. Tell me more.

00:49:03.732 --> 00:49:06.431
I'm gonna jump into my own four-pillared framework. I'm gonna assume good intentions,

00:49:06.431 --> 00:49:10.511
that there's a reason why they're saying what they're saying and then the second pillar, I can't say,

00:49:10.511 --> 00:49:13.731
that's ridiculous, you don't understand. I'm going to sit with that discomfort

00:49:13.731 --> 00:49:15.516
and I can't tell them no, even if I disagree.

00:49:15.984 --> 00:49:18.451
And that third pillar is then, well, hey, tell me more about that.

00:49:18.451 --> 00:49:20.411
What is that like for you? What do you remember about it?

00:49:20.411 --> 00:49:25.131
Help me understand. I want to understand and I want you to feel heard and that is gonna be uncomfortable.

00:49:25.131 --> 00:49:28.263
And then that fourth pillar, I can't go running into my bunker and saying,

00:49:28.551 --> 00:49:31.774
okay, fine, I'm the world's worst therapist there. Are you happy?

00:49:32.331 --> 00:49:36.771
And I will tell you a brief story here. And this is one that, boy, to this day,

00:49:36.771 --> 00:49:42.793
it just kind of breaks my heart. I had a client long ago that was just a wonderful elderly woman.

00:49:43.051 --> 00:49:48.662
And she at one point said that, well, you know, when you've made fun of my hair,

00:49:49.131 --> 00:49:52.071
And I think I've told the story on the virtual couch a time or two.

00:49:52.071 --> 00:49:54.343
So forgive me if I've told it on here as well.

00:49:55.018 --> 00:49:59.186
But I don't, I don't have hair. I didn't from a very young age.

00:49:59.251 --> 00:50:02.886
The last thing I'm gonna do is attack someone's physical appearance.

00:50:03.091 --> 00:50:07.251
I really, I know that's what it feels like to be me. That is not something I would do.

00:50:07.251 --> 00:50:11.141
So when she said, well, it's like when you've attacked me or told me that you don't like my hair.

00:50:11.651 --> 00:50:16.398
And so boy, I had to conjure up every tool that I have because my immediate response wanted

00:50:16.491 --> 00:50:17.767
to break all the pillars.

00:50:17.991 --> 00:50:23.311
Well, I'd keep pillar one. She wasn't trying to hurt me, but I want to say that that is ridiculous.

00:50:23.311 --> 00:50:24.284
I don't, I didn't do that.

00:50:24.471 --> 00:50:27.930
I don't do that. You don't understand me. Let me now make comments before those questions.

00:50:28.271 --> 00:50:32.171
You don't understand. And then I could go into a bunker and break pillar four

00:50:32.171 --> 00:50:35.330
and just say, okay, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about,

00:50:35.771 --> 00:50:37.508
but that's really hard.

00:50:37.562 --> 00:50:41.291
And so as a therapist, I remember having to practice in that moment and say, man,

00:50:41.291 --> 00:50:42.131
I appreciate that.

00:50:42.131 --> 00:50:47.276
And that is so, I am so sorry. If you have felt like I have criticized or made fun of your hair,

00:50:47.371 --> 00:50:49.707
That would be really hard, especially from somebody

00:50:49.811 --> 00:50:55.851
that you're here for help and to trust, but that's where I'm gonna stand in that confident space

00:50:55.851 --> 00:51:00.482
and say, but I will tell you that I am very confident that that isn't something that I do

00:51:00.571 --> 00:51:05.771
because of here's my experience around people's hair and physical appearance.

00:51:05.771 --> 00:51:10.169
But if that is what you are hearing, then I can understand that would be really difficult.

00:51:10.351 --> 00:51:11.177
So back to then.

00:51:11.987 --> 00:51:15.678
The question or the point that she made, I want to reach back out to my therapist.

00:51:16.200 --> 00:51:20.477
I know I would like to hear that because it's an opportunity to grow, but also to know.

00:51:21.206 --> 00:51:25.257
And then I have a situation going on right now, which is really interesting where the person

00:51:25.383 --> 00:51:29.236
is really, really wanting, and it's a wonderful person I worked with for a long time, but they are

00:51:29.517 --> 00:51:36.157
determined to get me to change my thoughts around something that they don't understand the amount of

00:51:36.157 --> 00:51:41.740
work I've done to get to the point of healthy ego and the thoughts that I have around a particular

00:51:41.794 --> 00:51:47.517
situation. It can be one where I do, I want them to bring me that data. I want them to

00:51:47.517 --> 00:51:52.237
challenge me. I want them to self-advocate, but that doesn't mean that I have to change if that's

00:51:52.237 --> 00:51:56.237
something that I feel very strongly about. Another person said, we had a therapist years

00:51:56.237 --> 00:52:00.637
ago that recommended the concept of decimation therapy instead of the couples therapy because

00:52:00.637 --> 00:52:03.757
they said that we just weren't on the same page. And that was the last time we saw her.

00:52:03.757 --> 00:52:08.180
And as the years passed, the story started to change that we had stopped going because this

00:52:08.557 --> 00:52:12.877
this person said that it was viewed as that they were not willing to do the work and that

00:52:12.877 --> 00:52:16.957
the therapist had recommended that they did separation counseling because she said, I

00:52:16.957 --> 00:52:18.748
wasn't willing, apparently I wasn't willing to do the work.

00:52:19.459 --> 00:52:22.637
She said, we had another one that tried to help a little while ago, but ended up just

00:52:22.637 --> 00:52:27.157
reading a lot of pages out of their educational books and just giving us a lot of pretty basic

00:52:27.157 --> 00:52:29.002
or random homework during the appointments.

00:52:29.657 --> 00:52:33.877
But then when I would work with that person one-on-one, then they would have a completely

00:52:33.877 --> 00:52:37.237
different vibe and a completely different message.

00:52:37.437 --> 00:52:40.877
And then they said, thank goodness the next therapist they had didn't knew what they were

00:52:40.877 --> 00:52:44.317
doing and what to look for.

00:52:43.225 --> 00:52:50.575
Another person said I woke up to my husband's narcissism right at the time We were starting couples counseling about a couple of years ago

00:52:50.922 --> 00:52:56.535
And in the second session my husband and I described how our arguments would go and she gave very clear advice on how to bring up

00:52:56.535 --> 00:53:01.955
Difficult discussions and what to do when things escalated call a timeout and resume when calm at this point for me

00:53:01.955 --> 00:53:06.635
I was wrestling with the question of if the things were my fault or could he actually be abusive?

00:53:07.432 --> 00:53:12.075
She said I followed her directions to the letter and it only escalated as verbal abuse. So I got the confirmation

00:53:12.075 --> 00:53:14.031
I scheduled an individual session with the counselor.

00:53:14.635 --> 00:53:18.190
She confirmed my suspicions and recommended a book called The Verbally Abusive Relationship.

00:53:18.875 --> 00:53:22.466
And I thought, great, we're on the right track. And she understands what's happening and what to do.

00:53:23.275 --> 00:53:27.913
But unfortunately, that's where her intervention stopped. It was like she knew how to identify the abuse, but that was it.

00:53:28.595 --> 00:53:31.795
We would still go in and talk through our relationship issues, and my husband would

00:53:31.795 --> 00:53:34.322
express how hard he was working to change.

00:53:34.493 --> 00:53:36.465
A little bit was changing, but it wasn't consistent.

00:53:36.835 --> 00:53:40.732
So she would tell us to be positive and tell me, sounds like he really does want to do better.

00:53:41.395 --> 00:53:45.115
She said that for at least a few sessions in a row, but she seemed to forget that in

00:53:45.115 --> 00:53:48.969
our one-on-one session that I expressed not feeling safe to fully explain my perspective.

00:53:49.795 --> 00:53:52.219
Without having the negative repercussions at home.

00:53:52.795 --> 00:53:55.875
And there was one specific instance, she said, when my husband and I were talking through

00:53:55.875 --> 00:53:59.187
an event and I, for the first time since the beginning of sessions, got upset.

00:53:59.430 --> 00:54:04.363
I expressed exasperation and rambled on for a minute. She put her hand up and said, that's enough. We get the idea.

00:54:04.696 --> 00:54:09.595
I was floored, considering every time that we'd go in there that he would do the narcissistic

00:54:09.595 --> 00:54:13.555
popcorn moments to me and she'd say nothing. It was confusing because I was

00:54:13.555 --> 00:54:17.035
relieved at first and thought she was supportive of me and then I think she

00:54:17.035 --> 00:54:21.395
overall fell for his narcissism and I just said I am so sorry on behalf of

00:54:21.395 --> 00:54:28.975
therapist. I'm floored as well and it sounds like yeah maybe she did eventually fall for it. Another person said our therapist was getting certified

00:54:28.975 --> 00:54:36.555
in EFT at the time we saw her. Emotionally focused therapy. That's what my four pillars are based off of. It's a wonderful couples modality model but she

00:54:36.555 --> 00:54:39.355
only wanted to work with emotions in the room. She didn't really want to hear any

00:54:39.555 --> 00:54:40.993
anything that happened outside of the room.

00:54:41.315 --> 00:54:43.460
And she said, I don't know if this is common for EFT therapists.

00:54:43.875 --> 00:54:48.348
At one point I pled with her and I said, his behavior at home is nothing like it is here.

00:54:49.115 --> 00:54:51.535
And she missed some very important things that happened in the room.

00:54:51.535 --> 00:54:55.335
Like in a session I told her I was frozen in fear because I had said things that I knew

00:54:55.335 --> 00:54:56.369
he would be angry about.

00:54:56.675 --> 00:54:59.304
And I feared he would punish me, emotionally, not physically.

00:55:00.312 --> 00:55:06.242
He was, of course, behaving very supportively in the room. He frequently turned sessions into poor me, I'm so fragile.

00:55:06.388 --> 00:55:08.063
Look, I'm working on my childhood wounds.

00:55:08.549 --> 00:55:14.823
And this seemed to impress the therapist greatly. She said, I don't even know how he did it, but I felt that she was snowed.

00:55:15.399 --> 00:55:18.242
She told me that she thought I was better at dealing with difficult emotions.

00:55:18.242 --> 00:55:20.562
And I came in saying, I want more safety in the relationship.

00:55:21.287 --> 00:55:24.642
Hello? She should have paid attention to those cues that something was amiss.

00:55:25.401 --> 00:55:29.308
She said, I'm emotionally mature. She recognizes this. I tell her I don't feel safe.

00:55:29.749 --> 00:55:31.595
Those two things together are a big clue." She said,

00:55:32.242 --> 00:55:36.002
Here's a story. He had a rage outburst in which he slammed a sturdy wooden box

00:55:36.002 --> 00:55:39.282
sitting in our coffee table, breaking it into pieces, me sitting across from him,

00:55:39.282 --> 00:55:43.362
feeling very threatened. Our next session we talked about this. I cried while recounting

00:55:43.362 --> 00:55:49.282
this and expressed my fear, and I explained I had no idea why he got angry. He also could not name

00:55:49.282 --> 00:55:54.482
why he was angry. Also, a huge red flag. Wouldn't that be to the therapist? And if someone isn't

00:55:54.482 --> 00:55:58.232
even aware of why they're angry, and if that is the case, shouldn't that be discussed?

00:55:58.727 --> 00:56:02.962
He then cancelled the next two sessions unilaterally directly with her and she never checked in

00:56:02.962 --> 00:56:07.415
with me to see if I was safe or in agreement with the cancellation of the sessions.

00:56:07.722 --> 00:56:11.842
She said I'm mad about that. I would bring stuff up from the past and get the impression that she interpreted this as

00:56:11.842 --> 00:56:14.931
me hanging on to old resentments and not being forgiven.

00:56:15.682 --> 00:56:18.682
And also like it was irrelevant because we were just going to be vulnerable together

00:56:18.682 --> 00:56:23.232
in the room while she helped us and then we'd learn new ways of relating and yay, everything would be fine.

00:56:23.762 --> 00:56:26.886
She said I was trying so desperately to show her that it was a pattern.

00:56:27.082 --> 00:56:33.602
It wasn't something new. I, too, could go on and on." He said in one session that he had told her in an individual session that he probably

00:56:33.602 --> 00:56:34.547
wanted a divorce.

00:56:34.602 --> 00:56:37.642
And I feel like she should have shared that with me or talked about it with both of us

00:56:37.642 --> 00:56:38.697
when he told that to her.

00:56:38.842 --> 00:56:42.042
That seems like a huge thing I should have been made aware of if I was still trying to

00:56:42.042 --> 00:56:44.042
be so vulnerable. She said, okay, I'll stop.

00:56:45.080 --> 00:56:50.355
And I just shared, thanks for sharing, yes to the red flags, and I feel just so bad that,

00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:53.506
she never checked in, that you have every right to be mad about that.

00:56:54.402 --> 00:56:57.362
And I talked about basing my four pillars off of emotionally focused therapy, and I

00:56:57.362 --> 00:57:00.915
I feel like EFT is a great tool, but if somebody is so focused on the tool,

00:57:01.282 --> 00:57:04.705
then they may be missing the bigger story that's happening in the room.

00:57:05.482 --> 00:57:08.762
The next person said, when my soon-to-be narcissistic ex and I

00:57:08.762 --> 00:57:10.562
finally went to counseling a full six months

00:57:10.562 --> 00:57:13.599
after me saying that I wanted a divorce and begging him to do therapy with me,

00:57:14.522 --> 00:57:18.172
the counselor said he knew that he wouldn't be able to help us if one of the three A's were present,

00:57:18.362 --> 00:57:20.182
addition, abuse, or affair.

00:57:20.182 --> 00:57:23.202
Okay, it literally says addition. I know it means addiction.

00:57:23.202 --> 00:57:30.064
I don't think, I think math is okay in a relationship, Although I'm going to be completely honest and vulnerable, I am not a huge fan of math,

00:57:30.562 --> 00:57:34.854
but I'm pretty confident that 3A is addiction, abuse, or affair.

00:57:35.385 --> 00:57:38.682
But she said, how can somebody that has finally convinced their narcissist to go to therapy,

00:57:39.445 --> 00:57:43.802
with them honestly so I could say and feel like I had done everything I could try to do to stay.

00:57:44.918 --> 00:57:49.280
Be brave enough in that first session to say or even admit to themselves that this was abuse.

00:57:50.194 --> 00:57:53.280
But I understand the need for the therapist to have the disclaimer, but in situations such as

00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:57.035
ours in this group, knowing the additional abuse that we'll have to endure if we tell anybody,

00:57:57.486 --> 00:58:01.200
what is really going on, how do we do this? We can't just hope the therapist picks up on what

00:58:01.200 --> 00:58:04.720
is happening. I don't know what the solution is. I wish I had suggestions. Maybe like somebody

00:58:04.720 --> 00:58:09.360
mentioned, these kinds of abuse need to be focused more in training and in schooling.

00:58:09.990 --> 00:58:14.800
To which then I replied, I really, I appreciated her sharing. I see her and she nailed it. Knowing

00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:19.760
about the additional abuse, and I am sorry that when people have to go through that and not saying

00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:23.920
we're a horrible profession, but we just don't know what we don't know as well. And there does

00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:27.920
need to be a lot more training on that. So again, to the therapists that are listening, and I

00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:32.320
understand that I can understand when somebody would say, I can't help if there's one of these

00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:39.360
three things present, that I would maybe want to suggest that you learn that as you are talking to

00:58:39.436 --> 00:58:42.480
a couple more. Maybe it's a more in-depth assessment. Maybe it's giving yourself a

00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:47.280
little bit more runway during the assessment to try to understand to see if that is something

00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:52.160
that you can help one of the people if they are in severe distress. The next person said,

00:58:52.160 --> 00:58:56.441
I went for my first solo session and this was just over the past week when this post was put

00:58:56.640 --> 00:59:00.560
out and it's been quite a while. She said, in the hour we discussed what I was there for and

00:59:00.560 --> 00:59:04.160
the therapist just told me that I was never going to be happy in my current relationship and that

00:59:04.160 --> 00:59:08.144
he is never going to change. She said, I felt like it was a lot to say in the first session.

00:59:08.351 --> 00:59:10.240
Is this typical?

00:59:09.963 --> 00:59:12.969
And I said, yeah, in my honest opinion, that is a lot to say.

00:59:13.093 --> 00:59:15.813
And I said, I'll address this in a couple of ways when I record.

00:59:15.813 --> 00:59:18.613
I feel like, again, this is more about the therapist wanting to help, of course,

00:59:18.613 --> 00:59:22.873
but wanting either the validation subconsciously that they can already identify and see what's going on

00:59:22.873 --> 00:59:23.664
and what needs to happen.

00:59:24.153 --> 00:59:28.516
And again, I may think that, I do, I often find myself thinking those same things.

00:59:28.893 --> 00:59:33.153
One of the greatest marriage therapists of all time, John Gottman, says that he can spot

00:59:33.153 --> 00:59:36.276
whether or not a couple will get a divorce, I think it's within the first 15 minutes.

00:59:36.633 --> 00:59:40.003
And I understand where he is coming from with that. I truly do.

00:59:40.613 --> 00:59:44.953
But that doesn't mean that then I need to just say that immediately because the people that are coming in,

00:59:44.953 --> 00:59:49.233
it's taken a lot to get somebody to come into counseling, to therapy, especially two people to come into couples

00:59:49.233 --> 00:59:50.633
counseling, couples therapy.

00:59:50.779 --> 00:59:56.593
And so I feel like that is what one of the other people said, it's part of the process of trying to figure out

00:59:56.593 --> 00:59:58.359
if I've done everything that I can do.

00:59:58.433 --> 01:00:03.985
So to be told in the first session that he'll never change, you will never be happy, and this is done.

01:00:04.553 --> 01:00:08.063
That's a lot because you're talking to somebody is still trying to figure out

01:00:08.433 --> 01:00:10.638
what their relationship looks like.

01:00:11.033 --> 01:00:15.593
Not the therapist saying, I see all these patterns, even though we do, when you've been doing this

01:00:15.593 --> 01:00:18.668
for a long time, and so then therefore trust me. They don't know me.

01:00:18.913 --> 01:00:22.458
They're just trying to start to figure out their own situation, their own life, their own marriage.

01:00:22.873 --> 01:00:26.313
So then the person said, I guess I wasn't ready to hear that, so bluntly, I know that feeling

01:00:26.313 --> 01:00:30.593
hangs over my head every day, but I'm just stuck forever, hoping that it'll take those steps to heal

01:00:30.593 --> 01:00:31.928
and work on his emotional immaturity.

01:00:32.393 --> 01:00:35.889
The therapist said it's a lost cause, and he would help coach me on a journey to my happiness.

01:00:36.433 --> 01:00:39.004
It was my first session, and I had never experienced an approach like this.

01:00:39.382 --> 01:00:43.181
I realize now how my walls are so big because I left there feeling like he was just trying

01:00:43.553 --> 01:00:46.890
to tell me what I wanted to hear instead of actually being interested in helping.

01:00:47.473 --> 01:00:50.914
Or maybe I am my own worst enemy and can't see the answers laid out in front of me, and,

01:00:51.473 --> 01:00:55.082
I sit here wondering now if it is something that we should just have pursued together,

01:00:55.633 --> 01:00:59.241
or if I should just continue by myself on this journey and I'm left more alone than ever.

01:01:00.303 --> 01:01:05.753
Another person came in and said, I think it can definitely be a rock and a hard place for the

01:01:05.753 --> 01:01:10.233
couples therapist. They can't assume too much and don't know enough to be able to see the right

01:01:10.233 --> 01:01:14.347
place to fit in. I think individual confidential questionnaires before a couple session is helpful,

01:01:15.067 --> 01:01:19.055
but that has to be with the therapist you trust, not to throw you under the bus if you check no

01:01:19.226 --> 01:01:23.753
to do you feel safe. She said, our couples counselor was EFT trained as well. I really

01:01:23.753 --> 01:01:28.247
liked her approach and the concept of the cycle and the attachments and the disagreements being

01:01:28.393 --> 01:01:32.953
sort of a third party. The idea that if we can remove each other as the problem, we can

01:01:33.189 --> 01:01:37.433
actively solve the real problem. I know I felt very defensive and worn down in my marriage

01:01:37.433 --> 01:01:41.113
when we started counseling, but I wouldn't have said that I was being emotionally abused

01:01:41.113 --> 01:01:45.273
or that he was a narcissist. A few times I did say the things he was responding to me

01:01:45.273 --> 01:01:48.952
in counseling was narcissistic, but she never labeled anything.

01:01:49.762 --> 01:01:52.633
She said, I'll share the most defining moment of our counseling, though. He had spent weeks

01:01:52.633 --> 01:01:56.865
talking about all the things that were wrong with me and all the help I needed. And just

01:01:57.018 --> 01:02:03.986
look at her over there emotionally unstable. I'd already started individual counseling and I've been working for years and healing deeper wounds.

01:02:04.445 --> 01:02:06.993
And I feel like our counselor saw that. She stopped my ex and said,

01:02:07.658 --> 01:02:10.809
You want her to do all this healing to be better so you can be?

01:02:11.430 --> 01:02:14.959
But also, I see that she's trying, she's fighting to keep her head above water,

01:02:15.455 --> 01:02:17.606
but she can't heal in the environment that you're providing her.

01:02:18.020 --> 01:02:21.486
All of your actions are re-traumatizing her and doing the opposite of helping her heal.

01:02:22.125 --> 01:02:23.511
So what is it that you really want?

01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:27.893
And this person said, I'm paraphrasing it, but it was something to that extent.

01:02:27.893 --> 01:02:31.406
And I feel like in that moment, she validated me and where I was at

01:02:31.493 --> 01:02:33.495
and also called him out without being too offensive.

01:02:34.253 --> 01:02:36.933
She said, at the end of the day, I think individual counseling is the only way to go

01:02:36.933 --> 01:02:41.309
until the kind partner has re-identified enough self-worth to fight for themselves and the marriage,

01:02:41.533 --> 01:02:43.933
as well as the marriage. And I think that makes it blatantly obvious

01:02:43.933 --> 01:02:45.253
within the first few couple sessions

01:02:45.253 --> 01:02:46.719
if there's anything to even salvage.

01:02:47.493 --> 01:02:51.273
And I just said, thank you for sharing that defining moment because I really feel that, I do.

01:02:51.273 --> 01:02:55.856
And I wouldn't expect him to have the aha moment, but I love that she picked up on that and felt seen.

01:02:56.593 --> 01:02:59.073
And she said, you know, I think he did sort of have an aha moment,

01:02:59.073 --> 01:03:02.257
but not in the direction I would have hoped. In hindsight, I realized somewhere along the line

01:03:02.673 --> 01:03:05.993
that his aha moment was, I don't want to be married if I can't be in control

01:03:05.993 --> 01:03:08.334
and she won't be obedient, which I think that's so beautifully said.

01:03:08.893 --> 01:03:11.913
She said, I really do think validation is so important and not just the I hear you

01:03:11.913 --> 01:03:16.593
or those other stereotypical therapist phrases, of specific validation to a situation.

01:03:17.543 --> 01:03:20.713
I've just got a couple more here. Another person said, we tried therapy when I had no idea

01:03:20.713 --> 01:03:22.161
what was going on in our marriage.

01:03:22.737 --> 01:03:25.793
And my narcissistic ex walked away from three different therapists,

01:03:25.793 --> 01:03:28.184
two of whom I continued to see by myself for some time.

01:03:28.697 --> 01:03:32.442
Both of them understood at least to some degree that he was seeking control in the relationship,

01:03:32.982 --> 01:03:35.413
and were able to help me make some progress in my personal healing.

01:03:35.935 --> 01:03:39.553
As our marriage reached the breaking point, my narcissistic ex asked me to go with him

01:03:39.553 --> 01:03:40.958
to see a therapist he had chosen.

01:03:41.489 --> 01:03:43.047
She had treated many of his coworkers.

01:03:43.673 --> 01:03:47.025
Our conversation seemed helpful enough, but I never felt truly understood by her.

01:03:47.385 --> 01:03:51.233
Even when I stated directly that I thought his behavior was abusive, she directed me

01:03:51.233 --> 01:03:54.092
to the change first principle over and over again.

01:03:54.673 --> 01:03:58.033
And I would try, but I couldn't help thinking, I've been changing first for a long time,

01:03:58.033 --> 01:03:59.385
when is it his responsibility?

01:04:00.273 --> 01:04:03.941
After a year of seeing her on and off, she one day told us somewhat reluctantly that,

01:04:04.473 --> 01:04:05.984
she had a diagnosis for each of us.

01:04:06.273 --> 01:04:10.971
She then announced that he had borderline personality disorder and that I was narcissistic. I was shocked.

01:04:11.683 --> 01:04:15.923
I knew that was incorrect. I felt so completely not seen by this person I had trusted to help us.

01:04:16.373 --> 01:04:17.606
He had her wrapped around his finger.

01:04:18.333 --> 01:04:21.173
Now in the end, she said that we needed to work on improving our communication.

01:04:21.173 --> 01:04:25.375
She told me that if I thought I needed to be fixed, that she wasn't the therapist for me,

01:04:25.493 --> 01:04:26.482
and I never went back.

01:04:26.893 --> 01:04:30.813
My narcissistic ex heard every word of that conversation, and I feel that she caused a lot of harm

01:04:30.813 --> 01:04:32.937
by giving him a diagnosis to then use against me.

01:04:33.493 --> 01:04:37.078
I expect he has at least told two of my oldest kids that I'm a narcissist,

01:04:37.573 --> 01:04:41.138
and now I have little to no contact with my children because of the picture that he has painted.

01:04:42.253 --> 01:04:45.453
I just said I am so sorry, and I appreciated her sharing that,

01:04:45.453 --> 01:04:46.773
and it just is so crazy.

01:04:47.213 --> 01:04:51.716
That is one special therapist, and I'm being very sarcastic, I hope you can tell,

01:04:51.853 --> 01:04:56.413
who can and will and thinks it's helpful to drop off a couple of personality disorder diagnoses

01:04:56.413 --> 01:04:59.197
and then in essence say, now, go work on your communication.

01:05:00.013 --> 01:05:03.333
Because if she honestly thought that you both had personality disorders, seriously,

01:05:03.333 --> 01:05:05.264
then there is no chance of improving communication.

01:05:05.660 --> 01:05:10.386
And again, for a therapist to even think that that's the path to healing, it blows my mind.

01:05:10.613 --> 01:05:14.373
So again, I appreciate her sharing this. And the person said, thank you for validating

01:05:14.373 --> 01:05:17.653
just crazy it felt to me.

01:05:16.841 --> 01:05:25.691
Okay, I have a couple more. Remember, these are real stories that are coming from people that are sharing in this group about a post about their experience in couples therapy.

01:05:26.222 --> 01:05:30.691
And I go back to my disclaimer in the beginning. This is not a get the pitchforks for a therapist.

01:05:30.691 --> 01:05:45.691
This is helping people that have had unfortunate experiences in therapy not feel alone, help them feel heard and understood, and hopefully help a therapist, if you're hearing this, be able to sit back and self-reflect and self-confront and all of those wonderful therapy things.

01:05:45.691 --> 01:05:51.291
Wonderful therapy things. And if you feel like this is something that you don't do,

01:05:51.291 --> 01:05:55.091
then that's wonderful. That really is. And maybe even here in these stories, you'll

01:05:55.091 --> 01:05:58.691
have somebody come into your office and they will say these things. And instead of you

01:05:58.691 --> 01:06:03.091
saying, well, I'm sure that there were two sides to every story, then you say, man, that

01:06:03.091 --> 01:06:08.691
sounds hard. I have heard, I have heard similar things. You are, you are not crazy. I'm glad

01:06:08.691 --> 01:06:13.591
you're here. So with that said, a couple more, this one's, this one's pretty interesting.

01:06:13.591 --> 01:06:17.231
She said, I can't let this post go without telling you about the worst and most crazy

01:06:17.231 --> 01:06:19.362
therapy experience that I have had with my ex.

01:06:20.191 --> 01:06:22.551
It was the first time we went to therapy many, many years ago.

01:06:22.551 --> 01:06:25.366
I've been asking him again and again, but he was refusing to go.

01:06:25.934 --> 01:06:31.271
I had very poor health and it felt like he was working 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

01:06:31.271 --> 01:06:32.658
so there was no space for me to heal.

01:06:33.171 --> 01:06:35.800
I was desperate for somebody to help us learn how to communicate better.

01:06:36.421 --> 01:06:39.905
So we finally accepted to go see a therapist about family, life, etc.

01:06:40.431 --> 01:06:43.731
The therapist was just a random one that we got in an office of family therapists.

01:06:44.311 --> 01:06:48.943
The whole session started with the therapist talking about my situation in a very condescending way.

01:06:49.751 --> 01:06:53.511
Then my husband told him everything about how hard it was for him that we didn't have

01:06:53.511 --> 01:06:59.287
enough sex, and that I was exhausted from illness and depression, also only relating into our sex life.

01:07:00.331 --> 01:07:04.901
He cried a lot. I'm assuming that she means her husband and not the therapist.

01:07:05.461 --> 01:07:10.261
And the therapist kept saying to me, look at this guy, look how bad he's feeling and look how hard

01:07:10.261 --> 01:07:16.101
this is for him. I tried telling them both my side of the story and to reach in and what it was that

01:07:16.101 --> 01:07:21.415
I also needed in order to be better. And even saying I really wanted and needed it too. How

01:07:21.541 --> 01:07:26.101
attracted I really was to him. And, but then I would be brushed off if I made a move or an advance

01:07:26.101 --> 01:07:32.181
on him. I said I needed it to be good, but it also had to be on my terms too, that I had a voice.

01:07:32.974 --> 01:07:36.709
But then I was basically shut down. The session ended with the therapist saying,

01:07:37.223 --> 01:07:41.861
what you guys should do is you should go home and just have sex every day. Just have sex no

01:07:41.861 --> 01:07:46.261
matter what. And if you like the idea and you're into it, you can even, I don't know, spank her a

01:07:46.261 --> 01:07:51.541
bit for how she's made you feel. And then she says in all caps, this is no joke. It really happened.

01:07:52.184 --> 01:07:56.481
And actually, it happened. She said, I was deeply shocked and only years later

01:07:56.481 --> 01:07:59.548
realized I should have made a complaint on the therapist and his interventions.

01:07:59.773 --> 01:08:02.807
And she said, what do you think of that therapy session, Tony, I'm curious.

01:08:03.149 --> 01:08:05.913
And she said, I do hope that you can read my humorous tone about it.

01:08:06.121 --> 01:08:09.601
She said, I'm very much able to laugh about it now, but it wasn't very funny then,

01:08:09.601 --> 01:08:12.520
and I think much worse than I ever realized at that time.

01:08:13.041 --> 01:08:17.688
And I did, I said, I love humor, I appreciate the humorous tone, but holy cow.

01:08:18.801 --> 01:08:25.501
I'm so glad that she had asked if I read it a humorous tone because I wanted to get the pitchforks on this one and go get the guy

01:08:25.501 --> 01:08:30.301
because that is insane. She definitely did not feel heard and understood. And the guy,

01:08:30.301 --> 01:08:33.941
her husband just had a platform there to say, Hey, uh, I think we just need to be having

01:08:33.941 --> 01:08:39.261
more sex. That will fix everything because it won't. But then I let her know that I have

01:08:39.261 --> 01:08:44.341
heard similar things. People that come into my office, unfortunately they do get to, even

01:08:44.341 --> 01:08:47.501
again, I go back to the therapist sometimes goes in to figure out his own stuff. So I'm

01:08:47.501 --> 01:08:51.341
I'm just going to be very transparent for my podcast listeners, the audience.

01:08:51.341 --> 01:08:57.667
And this is what I did say within the group. I said, if somebody, a therapist wants to feel validated and trying to have sex with

01:08:57.730 --> 01:09:02.781
their spouse every day and then spank their spouse, then unfortunately they have a

01:09:02.781 --> 01:09:07.381
platform that if they throw that out to others and others say, okay, I will do that

01:09:07.381 --> 01:09:12.581
too in an odd way, it can validate what that therapist wants to do or wants to see

01:09:12.581 --> 01:09:13.461
happening in their life.

01:09:13.461 --> 01:09:18.021
And I'm very aware of that in my own therapy of things where if I'm talking about ways

01:09:18.021 --> 01:09:22.421
to navigate a faith journey or if I'm talking about ways to set boundaries with family members

01:09:22.421 --> 01:09:24.862
that you can go pull data all you want.

01:09:25.790 --> 01:09:31.720
You if it's something that you are feeling or more passionate about then I know that there's a different energy or vibe that comes with it

01:09:32.109 --> 01:09:37.740
And so there's always that being aware as a therapist of is any of this again. Is this about me at all?

01:09:37.961 --> 01:09:47.000
Is this a counter transference move? I remember a therapist one time that was a client of mine telling me that he grew up with with parents who who there were

01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:54.200
Alcohol alcoholism in the family and so he said whenever he would have couples or clients in his office that would talk about

01:09:54.200 --> 01:09:57.120
about being drunk and getting into fights,

01:09:57.120 --> 01:09:58.700
that he couldn't help himself.

01:09:58.700 --> 01:10:02.160
And he would say, hey, so where are the kids at this point? When you're talking about this,

01:10:02.160 --> 01:10:05.022
when you guys are screaming at each other, when you locked him out of the house,

01:10:05.200 --> 01:10:08.740
when you were just yelling at each other, but you're saying now, I know, but we were drunk.

01:10:09.500 --> 01:10:13.680
And this person told me one time that the couple that he was working with,

01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:16.600
they said, I'm sure they're fine. They don't say anything about it.

01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:19.642
And I think the kids at the time, somewhere between nine and 12 years old.

01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:24.160
And this therapist said that that was where he first learned about this concept of counter-transference,

01:10:24.160 --> 01:10:26.105
where he wanted to say, oh, they were aware.

01:10:26.380 --> 01:10:30.420
They really were, but he knew that wasn't really what they were there talking about at that time.

01:10:30.420 --> 01:10:32.980
That example is really interesting.

01:10:32.980 --> 01:10:37.970
The post, the person who initiated that post, that last piece said, she said,

01:10:38.500 --> 01:10:42.540
I figure there must have been some kind of projection going on there, a counter-transference, she said, I guess,

01:10:42.540 --> 01:10:43.362
but it was madness.

01:10:43.758 --> 01:10:48.420
And she said, I imagined him, the therapist, being so happy with himself that he'd fixed this couple

01:10:48.420 --> 01:10:50.150
and now they must be living happily ever after.

01:10:50.780 --> 01:10:55.700
She said, years later, I was going through this nightmare and when she was going through the discard phase

01:10:55.894 --> 01:10:59.144
that we've talked about this on the podcast, the narcissistic discard.

01:10:59.860 --> 01:11:03.456
And she said, we went to a restaurant, my husband, my son, and I, and there he was,

01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:05.544
the therapist at another table with his wife.

01:11:06.057 --> 01:11:10.351
And he said, and she said, They had such a different vibe of odd energy to them.

01:11:11.188 --> 01:11:16.878
And she said, I was truly in hell at that moment in my life, and I kept thinking, there you are,

01:11:17.346 --> 01:11:22.159
oblivious of the damage that you caused in that moment. And if you would have recognized us,

01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:25.839
you would have thought you did wonders with your therapy as my husband was masking and I was

01:11:25.839 --> 01:11:31.039
pretending, but I was barely surviving for the love of my son. She said it was such a surreal

01:11:31.039 --> 01:11:36.719
moment. Okay, we have just a couple more. One person said, our therapist suggested that my

01:11:36.719 --> 01:11:44.359
spouse has dysthymia. And dysthymia, if I'm pulling my grad school days or clinical diagnosis

01:11:44.359 --> 01:11:49.219
classes, it's a persistent, persistent depressive disorder. So it's more of a long-term, but

01:11:49.219 --> 01:11:54.048
more low-grade form of depression. You can have bouts of more major depressive symptoms,

01:11:54.179 --> 01:11:58.699
but it's not to be confused with a major depressive disorder. But she said, our therapist suggested

01:11:58.699 --> 01:12:02.399
my spouse has dysthymia. I think he sensed something was off, but maybe didn't catch

01:12:02.399 --> 01:12:07.719
the covert narcissism. Strangely, the therapist was quite experienced, so maybe covert narcissism,

01:12:07.719 --> 01:12:10.879
she asked, is new. And I think it goes back to what we talked about a little bit earlier,

01:12:10.879 --> 01:12:17.579
that it's absolutely being talked about more. And she said, I felt like my therapist wanted

01:12:17.579 --> 01:12:21.901
to win the trust of my spouse because he was the type who would never go to therapy. We,

01:12:22.639 --> 01:12:28.119
worked a lot on validation. I learned to validate and differentiate, but brought up how my spouse

01:12:28.119 --> 01:12:32.679
finds validation useless and feels it gives the receiver a false sense of agreement.

01:12:33.595 --> 01:12:37.159
Now I struggle to validate because I feel like I'm validating the mask he's wearing and not

01:12:37.159 --> 01:12:41.799
the true emotions underneath. When I point out to my spouse what I think is actually going on,

01:12:41.799 --> 01:12:46.679
I get gaslit. I only started owning my life when I ended marriage counseling and started life

01:12:46.679 --> 01:12:51.559
coaching through a friend of mine about progress. And she said, those, Monica Packer, those four

01:12:51.559 --> 01:12:57.159
months breathe life into me. And I really do appreciate that. Oh, there's my reply about

01:12:57.159 --> 01:13:02.919
progress. I love Monica. I've had her on my podcast and I was on hers. But what I like about

01:13:02.919 --> 01:13:10.319
this, and maybe I should have, don't shoot on myself, but this we could do basically a lot of a big gun.

01:13:12.116 --> 01:13:19.100
Take 15. I could do a lot of content on this one post alone, because if we're now talking to the

01:13:19.100 --> 01:13:23.500
therapist, and this is where I think things maybe more understanding needs to be had,

01:13:24.845 --> 01:13:29.020
that this person brings up a great point where she said, I felt like my therapist wanted to

01:13:29.020 --> 01:13:32.317
win the trust of my spouse because he was the type who would never go to therapy.

01:13:32.794 --> 01:13:38.380
So we worked a lot on validation. And just in the, here's where we want to get the dialogue going for

01:13:38.380 --> 01:13:43.460
therapists is that this is where I feel like when you have enough reps in, when this is

01:13:43.460 --> 01:13:48.020
something that is just passionate to you, when you're continually seeking the latest

01:13:48.020 --> 01:13:54.180
and the greatest concepts and models of therapy, and you're listening to podcasts about couples

01:13:54.180 --> 01:13:58.540
therapy or couples modalities, or you're, I don't know, watching the shows on Netflix

01:13:58.820 --> 01:14:05.940
and there's a couples one on HBO and Showtime and watching real therapy and just so curious

01:14:05.940 --> 01:14:10.801
about the human condition, that if this is the thing that you have found, that this is not the

01:14:10.847 --> 01:14:14.987
socially compliant goal, it isn't the thing that you think, well, I'm supposed to have a job and I

01:14:15.240 --> 01:14:20.500
think I kind of like therapy. If it's the thing that you have now found is what brings you just

01:14:20.677 --> 01:14:26.141
the most joy and passion and sense of purpose, that is where when you've got the reps in, where.

01:14:26.907 --> 01:14:31.380
I think it is absolutely fair when I started earlier in the podcast talking about Ben Caldwell

01:14:31.380 --> 01:14:35.460
in the blog post that he made about the no secrets policy, and that it does put more

01:14:35.460 --> 01:14:39.860
pressure on the therapist. But when you have seen the same things over and over and over,

01:14:39.860 --> 01:14:45.622
and we're talking like hundreds of times, not just a few, that there are times where

01:14:45.775 --> 01:14:52.020
it would be necessary to try and build more of the rapport with the person who is more therapy

01:14:52.020 --> 01:14:57.220
resistant. But then that's where I think scrapping that no secrets policy is so important and getting

01:14:57.220 --> 01:15:03.860
the person who is the more maybe pathologically kind person to understand a little bit of

01:15:03.860 --> 01:15:08.820
a trusting you and that trust this process and the framework that you're working with

01:15:08.820 --> 01:15:14.160
or from, because you want to make sure that person feels seen and heard and understood,

01:15:14.660 --> 01:15:19.000
and also to let them know that, okay, but I also recognize that you have somebody that's

01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:23.700
coming into therapy that doesn't necessarily want to be here and we don't know yet if they

01:15:23.700 --> 01:15:27.258
they are willing to self-confront or do the work, and so that it can be scary.

01:15:27.740 --> 01:15:31.400
And so I want to tell the person, hey, I'm going to do all that I can with the tools

01:15:31.400 --> 01:15:36.440
that I have, and I'm going to be very honest, but it probably will look a little bit one-sided at times.

01:15:37.394 --> 01:15:41.040
And I go in and say early on in my couples therapy that I'm going to be somewhat of

01:15:41.040 --> 01:15:45.560
an equal opportunity offender, because I want to make sure that there are things, whether

01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:48.960
we're talking about semantics, whether we're talking about, hey, I'm noticing that you

01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:50.889
both are using all or nothing statements.

01:15:51.120 --> 01:15:52.293
He always, she never.

01:15:52.880 --> 01:15:57.480
It's been five years since, and I bring up the concepts around what I call these reactants

01:15:57.480 --> 01:16:00.935
hooks. Again, reactants is this instant negative reaction of being told what to do.

01:16:01.480 --> 01:16:05.040
And when you're sitting there in a couples session and you're early on and I'm trying

01:16:05.040 --> 01:16:08.551
to lay out a framework that I will insist on, my four pillars, so that we can see, can,

01:16:09.080 --> 01:16:11.400
they even play in that sandbox that has a framework.

01:16:12.323 --> 01:16:16.173
Kind of a weird analogy, a sandbox framework, I'm thinking of a jungle gym for some reason.

01:16:17.005 --> 01:16:21.209
But at that point though of saying, okay, even take a look at the all or nothing statements

01:16:21.344 --> 01:16:25.293
or the 10 times or five years. And then what happens when somebody says,

01:16:26.013 --> 01:16:31.373
he never owns up to his, the things he does, or I, he has never said, sorry.

01:16:32.128 --> 01:16:35.693
You can watch as the, from the couple's van, the therapist vantage point, you can watch

01:16:35.693 --> 01:16:42.493
him in this scenario, tune out, because now what he's doing is trying to remember, okay,

01:16:42.493 --> 01:16:47.533
I remember two years ago where I said, sorry, or I remember it has not been always, or here

01:16:47.533 --> 01:16:51.893
now they're queuing up their own. Oh yeah, well, you never do it either. And so it sometimes

01:16:51.893 --> 01:16:57.333
is necessary to trust your own gut instinct and know that this is what the people are

01:16:57.333 --> 01:17:03.373
paying you for. It is to help them come up with these tools and be able to use the tools,

01:17:03.373 --> 01:17:05.284
yes, on their own out in the wild,

01:17:05.662 --> 01:17:08.821
but remembering that with the population that we're talking about,

01:17:08.913 --> 01:17:14.153
if we're talking about most people, I believe, truly are coming into situations more emotionally immature

01:17:14.153 --> 01:17:15.483
and not knowing what they don't know,

01:17:15.913 --> 01:17:17.793
well, who in the room does know?

01:17:17.793 --> 01:17:18.715
It's probably the therapist.

01:17:18.953 --> 01:17:25.908
So if you are feeling more confident about that, and I think it is okay, Mr. and Mrs. or the therapist.

01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:33.361
To start to lean into that areas that you feel from a healthy ego that you do feel confident about.

01:17:33.883 --> 01:17:39.361
And what I love about talking about healthy ego is that you know the things you know because of your experience.

01:17:39.361 --> 01:17:44.361
And what comes with the healthy ego is also the awareness of there are absolutely things I don't know.

01:17:45.038 --> 01:17:49.361
So I'm going to start to lean into my own understanding and strength of the things I do know

01:17:49.361 --> 01:17:54.361
that I've continued to see play out, that patterns are, they are there for a reason

01:17:54.361 --> 01:17:59.081
reason, because the patterns occur because that is the way that maybe our brains work.

01:17:59.081 --> 01:18:04.041
I'm open to the point of seeing something happen completely different, but after a long

01:18:04.041 --> 01:18:10.496
amount of time and experience, you really do start to see some incredibly specific and

01:18:10.811 --> 01:18:16.561
just these patterns that happen. And you, it can absolutely help your client to be able

01:18:16.561 --> 01:18:22.401
to pull one aside and say, I see you and I see what is happening and I want you to trust

01:18:22.401 --> 01:18:26.121
me a little bit here and we're going to try to get this framework in place and you can

01:18:26.121 --> 01:18:30.741
ask me questions and you can and I will hold those confidences because I'm grateful you're

01:18:30.741 --> 01:18:34.561
here and I see the work that you're doing to get somebody to come into therapy that

01:18:34.561 --> 01:18:38.655
doesn't want to and is only maybe come in now that you are at your wits end because.

01:18:39.281 --> 01:18:45.794
That is part of the problem when with emotionally immature couples where it has to blow up before

01:18:46.081 --> 01:18:47.099
somebody will do something.

01:18:47.401 --> 01:18:52.601
Now we're back to that concept of, okay, fine. He in this scenario would come in and then say,

01:18:52.601 --> 01:18:58.121
no, I get it. Well, I'll do better. And so then if we are being honest, if that's one of those

01:18:58.121 --> 01:19:03.161
areas where, okay, don't just say we're, we're good. Cause that would be easy for the therapist

01:19:03.161 --> 01:19:08.110
to go, okay, cool. He gets it. And for the wife to say, okay, this worked. And for him to say,

01:19:08.361 --> 01:19:13.481
they, they both are smiling. Yeah, that feels pretty good. And then they exit. And then I call

01:19:13.481 --> 01:19:19.401
it a shelf life, two weeks, maybe a month. And then something happens again. And then it can be

01:19:19.401 --> 01:19:25.241
absolutely even more painful because now you've got, they've got new tools. Well, you know,

01:19:25.241 --> 01:19:30.121
the therapist said that you have to work on things too, or, oh, I guess you expect me to be perfect.

01:19:30.121 --> 01:19:33.801
Now the therapist actually told me that you're crazy too. I mean, and then here comes the

01:19:33.801 --> 01:19:37.241
triangulation and now we've got therapy to throw out into the mix as well.

01:19:38.322 --> 01:19:43.212
Okay, so my response in that one, where this person said that she got a lot of growth from

01:19:43.212 --> 01:19:48.652
then her life coach. And so then I said, in talking about that, I said, I appreciate her

01:19:48.652 --> 01:19:51.772
saying that the therapist worked to win the trust of the spouse. And I said, I honestly

01:19:51.772 --> 01:19:56.492
do understand that. And I feel like there is a lot there to look at as a therapist.

01:19:56.492 --> 01:20:02.252
I'll own that too, that I too will sometimes validate the narcissist or the emotionally

01:20:02.252 --> 01:20:06.492
immature experience. And I've shared a few times on episodes that here's the thing I want to make

01:20:06.492 --> 01:20:11.732
make sure that we get with this concept, is that the narcissist or the emotionally immature

01:20:11.732 --> 01:20:18.052
person is so used to conflict because it gives them the fuel or supply to engage that then

01:20:18.052 --> 01:20:22.132
if I find myself just saying, well, what would it look like if you did this?

01:20:22.132 --> 01:20:25.377
You're more empathetic or whatever, and they're saying, oh, I've done that.

01:20:25.692 --> 01:20:28.348
I mean, yeah, I've already tried that. Check that box.

01:20:28.692 --> 01:20:32.932
So then when I say something like, or a therapist says something like, man, okay, I hear you

01:20:32.932 --> 01:20:36.252
telling me that you feel like you've done everything you can do, then what that translates

01:20:36.252 --> 01:20:40.572
to for the emotionally immature narcissistic person who is so used to conflict that I believe

01:20:40.572 --> 01:20:45.398
that translates in their mind to see even the therapist agrees because I'm not arguing with them.

01:20:46.252 --> 01:20:49.932
And that's in a sense, that's almost like what they want you to do is to have a little

01:20:49.932 --> 01:20:52.042
dust up, to have a little row, you know, to argue.

01:20:52.612 --> 01:20:55.940
So I feel like there is a fine line there of validating versus truly agreeing.

01:20:56.452 --> 01:20:59.505
Now both are going to be weaponized, but I feel like if I try to go out of the way to,

01:21:00.212 --> 01:21:03.972
educate the non-narcissist of the difference, then that can be very helpful.

01:21:03.972 --> 01:21:08.172
So when I validate my pillar two, I can't tell them they're crazy even if I feel or

01:21:08.172 --> 01:21:13.071
maybe I know that they, maybe crazy is the wrong word, but they are what I'm seeing,

01:21:13.539 --> 01:21:16.432
and I don't allow them to immediately argue.

01:21:16.432 --> 01:21:21.492
Then hopefully then the non-narcissist or the less emotionally immature person recognizes

01:21:21.492 --> 01:21:26.854
that I do see them in that moment. I hear them and I am not, I want them to see I'm not telling him he's right.

01:21:27.169 --> 01:21:28.285
I'm reflectively listening.

01:21:28.632 --> 01:21:31.535
So I was so grateful for the way that she shared that.

01:21:32.792 --> 01:21:37.192
More and this is probably the longest episode I've ever done so I think that I'm going to save a few

01:21:37.192 --> 01:21:41.992
of these and I'm sure that I'm going to get some questions and then we're going to we're going to

01:21:41.992 --> 01:21:46.872
jump into another one of these down the road. While I have you and if you are still listening

01:21:46.872 --> 01:21:48.801
Bless your heart. I really appreciate it.

01:21:49.737 --> 01:21:53.996
On that, what just came up for me, and I'm going to talk so much about this, I think, moving forward,

01:21:54.400 --> 01:21:58.867
but I had the opportunity to interview Reed Harkless, the director of a movie called Sam Now,

01:21:58.867 --> 01:22:01.667
and that episode is going to come out on the virtual couch probably in a week or two,

01:22:01.667 --> 01:22:05.572
and I'll run it here on Waking Up to Narcissism in a few weeks as a bonus episode.

01:22:06.319 --> 01:22:09.776
But when I was just reading that part that I just had a little aha moment,

01:22:10.109 --> 01:22:16.707
but reading that part where if I'm not arguing with the narcissist or the more emotionally

01:22:16.707 --> 01:22:22.227
immature person that I feel like then they feel like I agree with them. This is so out of context,

01:22:22.227 --> 01:22:27.502
I highly, highly recommend the movie Sam Now. It's a documentary and wait till you hear the

01:22:27.587 --> 01:22:31.267
interview with Reed. It was one of my, I don't know, I can't stop thinking about it. It was one

01:22:31.267 --> 01:22:36.867
of my favorite interviews I think I've ever done. And I just, I, when I watched the movie a few days

01:22:36.867 --> 01:22:41.427
ago, I had a separate screen up and I just took as many notes as I could. But again, completely

01:22:41.427 --> 01:22:46.867
out of context, there's a narcissistic character or a very emotionally immature character in the

01:22:46.867 --> 01:22:52.227
documentary. And she says, this is right out of her mouth. And so I think that this is so powerful.

01:22:53.041 --> 01:22:55.587
Because I think now those that are still listening, especially if you're still listening,

01:22:55.587 --> 01:23:00.792
I think you'll really understand where, why I found this so significant. The person said,

01:23:01.044 --> 01:23:06.147
you need people to engage with you. And the only way you know how to do it is at this one level,

01:23:06.147 --> 01:23:10.867
you get into this spiral and you get whipped up like the Tasmanian devil and you can't get out

01:23:10.867 --> 01:23:15.747
of it. It's like a toddler who can't get out of it until you have some type of catharsis.

01:23:15.889 --> 01:23:21.347
You end up hurting somebody or hurting yourself, and that stops it. So I just thought that was so

01:23:21.347 --> 01:23:26.467
powerful where she hears somebody that is, and this wasn't like a, oh, and she's better now.

01:23:26.647 --> 01:23:31.747
It was just, I felt like it caught her in a very real, very raw moment where she just recognized,

01:23:31.747 --> 01:23:38.147
man, yeah, when I try to have conversations, I just, I get, I just get that. And what I believe

01:23:38.147 --> 01:23:42.904
is that narcissistic supply where I just need that person to engage just to know I exist and I don't

01:23:43.027 --> 01:23:47.347
know how to not to do it in the way that I'm doing it. So I think that that was just so important.

01:23:47.347 --> 01:23:52.141
I can't wait to get that episode out. Thank you. I don't even know how long this episode is,

01:23:52.303 --> 01:23:56.795
but I would love therapist questions and they send them to contact at tonyoverbay.com.

01:23:57.336 --> 01:24:00.547
I would love more examples of what you've experienced in couples therapy because I

01:24:00.547 --> 01:24:04.627
want to do more episodes on this because we do need to bring more awareness to

01:24:04.627 --> 01:24:10.167
to working with emotionally immature and narcissistic couples and relationships

01:24:10.167 --> 01:24:13.126
because that key again is that no one knows

01:24:13.187 --> 01:24:18.256
that this person is or isn't a narcissist or emotionally immature or when they come in the door.

01:24:18.547 --> 01:24:24.267
And so to just all of a sudden make this judgment call immediately and then just say run

01:24:24.267 --> 01:24:27.787
or it has to look like this or if you're experiencing, you know, if you're a big fan of addition,

01:24:27.787 --> 01:24:28.879
we cannot do couples therapy.

01:24:29.427 --> 01:24:33.516
That's a callback. Thanks again, everybody. I'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.

01:24:33.520 --> 01:24:52.493
Music.