Music.
Hey, everybody, welcome to episode 79 of Waking Up to Narcissism.
I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast, Murder
on the Couch podcast.
I guess a lot of couch-related podcasts and very soon a podcast or a season of a podcast
based on the book that I helped co-author called He's a Porn Addict, Now What?
An Expert and a Former Addict, Answer Your Questions, where I play the part of the expert.
That is going to be one with co-author Joshua Shea, where we read the questions and answers
from the book. And then we have some bonus content where we talk about where we're at
two or three years later after the publishing of the book and what has maybe changed, or we
deep dive more into the answers and the concepts around the answers. And that talks about turning
the pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. It also addresses for the partner who feels
betrayed. So I am looking forward to getting that episode out and all the links for all the things
will be in the show notes, the link tree links for that. So let me go on my train of thought.
So today I want to take some time and I want to dive deep into the intricate web of relationships,
and especially the complexities that occur or arrive when therapists encounter emotionally
immature or narcissistic individuals in couples therapy. And I have a thread in the Private
Women's Facebook group about couples therapy or therapy in general when you're dealing with a
narcissist or an emotionally immature person. Because I'll say right out of the gate that
we're taught that doing couples therapy when there is this kind of gaslighting or emotional
abuse can be contraindicated, meaning it is going to do the opposite. It can be quite negative.
Here's the problem. When I talk about just the whole basis of starting waking up the narcissism,
it's because you hear those things like, well, you don't do the couple's therapy.
But the problem is nobody knows if this person is emotionally mature or narcissistic. If people
just don't know what they don't know. And so even as a therapist, you're going in with my
pillar one for life of assuming good intentions, that there's a reason or there's a reason why
people are showing up even in therapy and their relationships the way that they are.
And then is it a matter of they just don't have the tools to communicate?
And so if they are given the right tools, then will they learn to all of a sudden break
as these cycles in their past and in their family dynamic, and then change for the better and then change the world
as now their kids have more tools and they see their parents more connected.
So just like an individual is waking up to their own either narcissistic traits and tendencies
or the narcissism in their relationship, The therapist is also going through an experience
where they're trying to navigate the complicated waters,
of, I don't know these people, but they're in my office now.
I'm trying to look for things that I have become aware of because of maybe my areas of expertise as a therapist.
And the reason I am so excited to talk about this topic is I know I have a lot of therapists
that listen to the podcast, and I want this to spark some questions.
I want your questions, especially therapists, If you are hearing this and you have your own thoughts, questions, experiences, and
I want your stories.
Because to my fellow therapists, I promise you I come in peace because we definitely just don't
know what we don't know. And we are trying our best to navigate the best way to help our clients.
And we're also reading all the things that talk about personality disorders and they're.
Difficult to work with and we want to protect our clients. But we also know that there's two sides
to each story and everybody's bringing their own stuff into therapy. We got to watch out for our
own counter-transference or what does this bring up in me, seeing a relationship play out in front of me.
So I just want you to know that this is such a desire of mine to just start having more
dialogue around working with a population where one or potentially both people are more
on the emotionally immature side, not knowing what they don't know.
There is this just almost this spectrum of where somebody is truly trying their best and they don't
know and they want to be better. And then there's also people who just because of all their childhood
wounding, their deep abandonment, attachment issues, the way that they saw relationships
modeled, that it may not be in their realm of understanding or ability to tolerate the discomfort
to self-confront. And so at some point, and therapists, I think, who have been, who are
hearing me and saying, I think I know what he's talking about, that you get to that point where
then you do make a bit of a judgment call to say, okay, I can do my best to help this person who is
losing their entire sense of self in this relationship, maybe then navigate what is
best for them, which then can be best for their kids, which can, in essence, stop this.
Generational trauma from occurring, that at some point, maybe you get this opportunity
to shift your focus from trying to help the relationship to help someone become a transformational
figure in their entire family system.
If you are individuals who have gone to couples therapy and really felt like it, that therapist
really didn't understand what was going on, because I don't want this to be a,
hey, let's get the pitchforks and bash all therapists. I happen to be one,
because this is one of those concepts where I want to help change how we deal with this
topic in couples therapy as a therapist and myself, or if you're going in as an individual,
and then you start to notice certain things that are happening in the couples therapy,
and you have the right to feel like your therapist doesn't understand what they're talking about.
And I want you to have the tools by the end of this episode to be able to self-advocate as well.
And then therapists, I want you to recognize that you are a human being as well,
and you don't know what you don't know.
And so, if you are hearing from one of the people in the session's experience,
and your immediate reaction is, no, you don't understand, I'm the expert.
Then that's an opportunity to sit with some discomfort, self-confront, and grow,
because I will tell you, with every bit of empathy that as somebody now that has done couples therapy for a solid well over 15 years,
because the first couple of years I didn't do much couples therapy, but now at any given week
for the past few years, I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week. I've got my four pillars of a connected
conversation based off of Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy, and it's gold. It's manna from
heaven. And so I feel confident that when I can see a couple that really embraces the tools and
a new framework, and then they get better, that then that also helps me understand that when a
a couple comes in and one or both cannot grasp
the framework or the tools that now we start looking at, okay, this is going to play out a certain way
and it most likely will not be beneficial for the more pathologically kind person
coming into the session.
So what do I do about that as a therapist?
Do I just maintain that, hey, I'm still just a mirror and I am a reflection for them?
But then if you're hearing from one of the people that after they leave therapy, things are horrible,
and not the uncomfortable, but horrible where there's more manipulation, more emotional abuse.
But if you're saying, okay, but I have to remain this person who the relationship is the client,
then I want you to have the confidence to self-confront because we're here to help people get better.
And whether we want that to be the couple, which is what a good couples therapist wants to happen, that's wonderful.
But then if you now notice that, okay, that is not gonna happen,
I need to help save the individual and help that individual save themselves,
actually is probably more applicable.
So, we don't get training as therapists, really, on working with extremely emotionally immature people
or people with personality disorders. And I know that you know what we say
when we're all talking about, as therapists,
about people with personality disorders.
Run, because they'll drain you as a therapist and suck the life out of you.
And often, they're so good at the gaslighting and pushing your buttons,
that you will find yourself reacting, and all of a sudden, man, they got me too.
And it's an opportunity to grow, it really is, as a therapist, and that's why I love
when therapists go to a therapy consultation group.
And I think that can be very beneficial and helpful to process things as a therapist.
But sometimes we're too embarrassed because we want to say, wait, I'm the therapist, and
that person just pushed my buttons. I can't believe I allowed myself to get into that position.
And I drop my guard, or rather than looking at that and saying, oh, okay, I see where
they got me. enjoying a nice popcorn moment until they hit that one nerve.
And then I reacted and all I can do now is self-confront, take ownership of that, and
then use that to help me grow.
So imagine this. Here we go. You are a seasoned therapist. You've spent years in the chair.
You're guiding couples through the ups and downs of their relationships and you've developed
this almost keen sense for now deciphering the intricacies of human behavior, understanding
the dynamics at play in your office.
But even with all that experience, there are times when you now are facing, it is quite
a formidable challenge that is the emotionally immature narcissistic partner.
And that can present such a perplexing puzzle, one that takes a lot of years of practice,
and time in the chair to begin to recognize and to unravel.
Because at first they may appear charming and charismatic and even convincing in their
commitment to change.
And they will often be very flattering and they will bond with you and they will start,
telling you how much they understand, they get it.
This is the first time they've had a therapist they've really been able to identify with.
But then if you start to see that or notice that as time goes on, then you too start to question
the authenticity of their words and their actions.
Are they really invested in the therapeutic process or are they just really good at manipulation and control?
And I think one of the most powerful things that I've recognized over the years is do,
I think an emotionally immature narcissistic person is very good at saying the right thing
to alleviate their discomfort or get the validation in that moment.
And that's where we could make the argument that in that moment, they mean it,
but then that was just the tool to get out of that moment or to get validation from you as the therapist.
But now that they have left the office, now that is done. You are, even that moment is somewhat discarded.
And now they're just interacting with the next person in the next moment.
And now they will do whatever they need to in that moment to seize control, to take this one up or victim one down
status to have people come rescue them.
So for both the therapist and the couple, then this starts to be a really difficult situation
because the emotionally immature or narcissistic partner or person in the room.
They will start to engage in tactics like lying, minimizing their behavior, love bombing,
overwhelming their partner right in front of you, having excessive displays of affection and emotion
or just trying to maintain control or avoid confronting their own shortcomings. So recognizing
these patterns does take practice. It kind of takes a keen eye of the therapist and understanding of
of the dynamics that are at play, that understanding that what the emotionally
immature person does is they speed through the work, they get it so fast,
oh my gosh, I get it for the first time, and then you feel like a good therapist
because they get it and you feel like, okay, this is great, I'm gonna watch this
person change. And as a therapist, I think it's really important to even start
looking at introducing the idea of positive tension. So if they get it, well.
Then, man, I'm so grateful you get it. Tell me what you get, tell me what that
sounds like for you? Help me understand what you're hearing and what do you
think you can do to implement that into your life? And a real-life example of
that that happens often is when somebody finally does say, oh man that sitting
with discomfort, okay that one really resonated with me and I realize now that
that is something that that I can work on. Okay well tell me what like how are
you gonna work on that? Oh I'm just I'm gonna be more aware. Okay well what is
tell me what that would look like? Tell me what that would mean? Because if the
person really has gone introspective and they are really self-confronting and
taking a look at that, then they can often come up with a lot of different examples of, oh my gosh, yeah, when my kid asks me if they can go do something and
it costs money, that does make me uncomfortable.
And so often I recognize that I will say, yeah, no, I think it sounds like a
great idea, but am I really in that moment saying it and just hoping that he
forgets or am I saying it in that moment? but then I'm not willing to have the courage to say.
But I don't know if we can afford it, but I'm going to take a look and see if we can.
And I'm not going to tell you that right now. And then when you finally come back to me and ask for
the money, then I'm going to let you know at that point that I really don't think we can afford it.
You know, do you have the courage to deal with that discomfort now and say, man,
bud, I wish we could, but I don't think we can really afford that right now.
Even if that child now is going to be disappointed because we don't want to disappoint others. We
want everybody to love us and validate us. And unfortunately, if you are the emotionally
immature person, then you go to great lengths and unhealthy ways to get that validation.
And that will be saying something in the moment to get validation and to have that person light
up across the couch from you or on the couch with you. But then, are you going to do anything about
it? It's going to sound like I'm going on a tangent, I think, but this is where I've been
really looking at concepts around just the idea of even just a confession in general.
That oftentimes I feel like a confession, whether it's to a religious leader or to a spouse,
is a way to just get the validation, unload my own discomfort, and then get out of that
moment. And even if the person feels like in that moment, okay, that worked, I told my priest or I
told my spouse that, yeah, I did it. You know, I was doing something, looking at porn or something
like that. And then now I just said, okay, I just handed this burden over to you. I feel better. I
feel much lighter. And then now it's up to you to either forgive me, tell me it's okay, because if
not, then I cannot believe that you are treating me that way when I just expressed myself a very
vulnerable emotion and now you're making me feel worse. So that's one of those
examples where you know this is where you do have to start staying in your healthy ego as a therapist and recognize there's a right way and a
incorrect way for that a client shows up in sessions and if you have been doing
this long enough you have to trust your own BS meter, your own instincts, your own
gut reactions or visceral reactions that you have now hopefully done enough work
that you know when somebody says I get it here's how I get it and you feel like
Wow, they really understand what this concept is at a deep level.
They understand that, wow, in the past, maybe I have confessed.
Because I wanted to see if you said, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Then I felt like,
wow, that feels good. So I feel better, but now I'm not doing any work after I'm not starting to
journal. I'm not going to a group meetings. I'm not starting an exercise regimen. I'm not starting
to get patterns and consistency in my life. I just feel better because I just expressed
something that I'm not happy with, or that you asked me to express. I did it.
You have told me a good job. You've patted me on my head and now I don't have to do anything else.
You know, versus again, the person that says, I get it now, I here's the pattern I've done in
the past and here's how I am going to change. So that's a, there's a big difference there.
And again, that takes a lot of years and experience. I was on an interview not long
ago. I may have already said this on the waking up the narcissism podcast here, but let's, you
know, let's go with this number of 1500 couples that I've worked with over the last 17, 18 years.
And I would say the first, again, making this very easy math, but maybe the first 500, I really,
It's embarrassing to admit, but I feel like any therapist that has done a lot of couples work over the years
will admit the first, let's say the first 500 couples or the first few years,
you really don't know what you don't know.
And you're just showing up in the room and you're trying to do whatever you can
if it's just some simple reflective listening skills.
But sometimes it's just a matter of you being there in the room with the couple,
the couple going through the process of signing up for couples therapy that can improve things.
So you feel like, well, at least they're coming and at least I'm doing it.
And sometimes they think it goes well.
And then I feel like you shift over into the, oh, you start to actually have some real tools,
but now as a therapist, you don't even realize you probably want validation
and you wanna ease discomfort, your discomfort and the discomfort of the couple.
So for a few years there, as I'm starting to even talk about EFT,
emotionally focused therapy, well before I put these into context of the four pillars,
where I would say a lot of things about EFT,
I can even hide behind the words that we use in therapy of psychoeducation.
I was being able to just tell them and teach them things, almost like more coaching.
And so then they would say, wow, those things sound good. Right, honey?
They look at each other, they light up. I'm having a moment because I feel like, okay, this is great.
But was I just saying things because I wanted them to validate me that look at these things I'm saying
and they do kind of make some sense.
And then they look at each other and say, this guy makes some sense.
And those are things that we've never heard before. So then everybody leaves, they feel better,
but it's that same concept of what do they do?
Do they do anything throughout the week? Are they doing things to get better?
And that's where I feel like maybe, let's say over the last few years and the last few hundred couples later,
that when you actually understand the tools, you've internalized those tools as a therapist
and you're starting to bring those into sessions and it does create a lot of tension.
And we're so afraid of that contention, we avoid the tension altogether,
not just in a couple's relationship, but as a therapist, that often that tension can be uncomfortable
and you have to learn to model that behavior for your clients and learn what to do in that discomfort.
And if you feel confident about your tools as a therapist, then you can use that discomfort for your good.
But what I've noticed is that I'm probably working with more difficulty in couple sessions
because I'm willing to sit with that discomfort and I have those tools and those tools work.
But the whole reason why a couple is in your office is because they have not been able
to get along well or there has been betrayal or infidelity or something like that.
So of course it's going to feel awkward and of course it's going to feel uncomfortable.
So that's where we need to then recognize that divorces happen.
Do emotionally and physically and sexually and financially and spiritually abuse other
people. And it takes a long time before people will eventually come walk through your doors.
And that takes a lot of courage from them. But your job now is to, they are coming to you wanting not only advice and tools and
to understand what they don't know, they don't know that they don't know.
But it is our job as therapists to then help identify with your confidence, your healthy
ego based on real life experience when you are seeing something that is starting to look more
along the lines of those emotional abuse or the gaslighting, the emotional immaturity,
and then really helping point that out to maybe the pathologically kind person.
Because just throwing it up in the context of couples therapy, and this is that concept where,
hey, when do you tell the narcissist they're the narcissist? Never. But if you can start
identifying that here are some tools, here are the way the tools are not being used. Right back to
the tools again. Did I mention the tools? I'm noticing that the tools are a challenge and then
being able to pull somebody aside one-on-one and start to say, hey, here's what I'm noticing,
here's what I'm seeing. And so we may have to take this a little bit in a different direction.
So kind of getting back to this as a therapist, you may be pretty disheartened to start to realize
that you also are a target of the manipulation or the deception because it challenges that very
foundation of the trust where therapy is built and the trust that you are hoping that you will
be able to establish with the couple and in the relationship with the therapist.
And it becomes this kind of fine, delicate dance of unraveling the truth while remaining somewhat objective and compassionate.
And it can take years of experience as a therapist and a lot of keen observation and continuous,
here's the key, professional growth for therapists to develop the insight and the resilience needed
to navigate these kind of relationships in these complex situations.
And therapists that are listening, please, I hope that you are continuing to read and observe and do.
And if you are not, then I would challenge you to do so. And this is where I go back to that concept
of having spent 10 years in a career I did not care much about, that I didn't know
how little I cared about it, the software industry,
and then finding something that I absolutely love and is my passion, that it is, I believe,
it is our job to continue to develop and to grow and to read new articles and test new theories,
and look introspectively and do all of the work ourselves so that we can then show up in couples therapy
and it is absolutely okay to tell a couple that, hey, here's something new that I've learned
and I wanna see if we can implement this in sessions.
And I think so often a therapist is so afraid of their own discomfort or of being a human being,
that they just stick to this rigid set of rules or they're just a very rigid framework
because they don't have other tools.
They're unwilling to be vulnerable in a session and say at times, hey, I'm not sure,
but let's talk about it.
And I'll tell you, it's interesting. I'm reading a book on internal family systems
thanks to an interview on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago with my friend, Craig Parra.
And he laid out the concepts of internal family systems and parts work so beautifully,
that this book is blowing my mind.
It really is, it's called Altogether You.
And I've already talked with a couple of couples this week on some of the concepts that I'm learning
from internal family systems and how that might eventually work its way
into the context around my four pillars.
And it wasn't long ago, especially if you've been listening to the podcast
where I learned about Marshall Rosenberg's
nonviolent communication, thanks to someone who had written in and asked me about it a few times, and the concept of
we observe and judge in the same frame.
I'm starting to call my pre-pillar. So before we get to pillar one of assuming good intentions,
or there's a reason why somebody does or says what they do, then I feel like Marshall Rosenberg's.
Nonviolent communication, and especially that concept around we observe what someone's behavior
is and we make a judgment in the very same frame. So, hey, that person, they didn't come give me a
kiss before they went to bed, my spouse didn't. So that means they obviously are having an affair,
they don't care about me. Well, no, I'm observing a behavior, I'm making a judgment. And now if I
if I have a conversation with that person,
and let's say that I'm going into the four pillars
and I'm gonna try to assume good intentions, but if I already feel like,
but I already know why they did what they did,
then the game's a little rigged going in.
So we have to be aware of almost this pre-pillar of separating our observation from our judgment.
So we need to continue to grow as a therapist as well.
So that continued education, that continued professional growth that we need to develop
to help us have this insight in these couples' situations.
But the difficulties do not end there. The couples themselves, they grapple with this confusion and pain, and they come in
with being in a relationship, especially if it's with an emotionally immature, narcissistic partner.
And they find themselves now questioning their own judgment.
They feel trapped in this cycle of having hope and then disappointment.
That is that intermittent reinforcement that we talked about a couple of weeks ago.
And therapy becomes a lifeline. It's supposed to be the safe place where they can confront their doubts and their fears
and learn new tools and address the secrets that they have been keeping in the shadows.
But as they express those to a therapist who has a lot of experience on the couch, even
if they're using the right tools, and then their partner takes that information and over
time manipulates them with it, then it is our job as therapists to be able to help the
person that is desperately clinging to hope and trying to do the work and watching it
backfire to let them know that you are not the problem at this point.
And I'll get to this, because in the women's Facebook group, there's so many messages,
because I put out a message and I'll read the message here in a minute.
But I said, I want to do an episode on this for therapists, but I also want people that
are in couples therapy, if they feel crazy, that I just want them to know and hear enough
stories where they can say, just like when I do the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes,
where they know, oh my gosh, that's what's happening in my therapeutic setting.
That's what happens in my therapy.
And I want you to be able to self-advocate and be able to try to have these conversations
with your therapist and your therapist just says, hey, I can't do that. We've got a no secrets
policy. You tell me, I got to tell your spouse. Then I don't feel like that might be the right
fit for you. I'll be very bold in saying that. And again, these are just my opinions. This is
not to be excused as now you must do this as if I am your therapist, because I am not. I am a
podcast host who happens to be a therapist as well. So I really want to go then a little bit
deeper. I want to explore the challenges that are faced by therapists and couples that's happening
in couples therapy. I'm going to share some stories from experienced therapists who have
weathered this storm. I want to give insight on this delicate balance between having compassion
and then setting boundaries. And I want to shed a little bit light as well on the resilience and
courage that are demonstrated by the pathologically kind person who is continually trying to show up
and improve the relationship and who will walk out of a couple session and unfortunately.
Hear oftentimes that I can't believe you threw me under the bus.
Like that's horrible. I can't believe that because that is not going to continue to be
a safe place for that person to open up in couples therapy. So let me do one more,
a little bit of setup. So I mentioned a thing called a no secrets policy.
I want to explain that a little bit. And I want to turn to an article from the
simplepractice.com blog. Simple practice is the practice management software that I happen to use.
And a lot of therapists do use. And there's a person there that I actually reached out to him
a while ago, I never heard back. So if this gets its way, it finds its way back to Ben Caldwell.
Ben, I would love to have you on the virtual couch because Ben's a clinical psychologist and
he writes a lot of test prep material for people that are going to take the licensing exams.
But I have started to say that whenever I start to develop my own thoughts or opinions that seem a
little bit counter to the things that you learn coming out of grad school based on your own
experience, that then Ben will post an article that I think will address something that I've
I've maybe even started implementing in my own practice,
but I'm not out there shouting it from the rooftops because I often myself feel like.
Okay, I feel like I'm a little bit alone in this approach.
So this is one of those situations where when I read this article from Ben,
it's from July 31st of 2022, so a little over a year ago, I felt very heard, I felt very seen.
So Ben said, for years, my clinical specialty has been working with couples and couples therapy.
And he said, when I started, I had a no secrets policy.
My no secrets policy was this, anything that one partner would tell me individually,
I reserve the right to bring up in the couple setting.
And that is what we learn. That's what you learn as a budding new couples therapist,
especially coming out of grad school when you go to some of your first trainings.
And he said, I hope that this policy would make it clear that I saw the relationship as my client,
which I have made a very big deal about when I have started with new couples in the past,
where, hey, this isn't individual therapy, the relationship itself is the client.
So I, as the therapist, owe my duty and my responsibilities to do what is best for the relationship.
So he said, keeping individual secrets, like affairs, substance abuse, gambling, or anything else,
would easily undermine the therapy or put me in an awkward position.
And he said, I wanted nothing to do with secrets.
And he said, this is the philosophy that many instructors encourage new couples therapists to adopt.
But he says, here's the problem with secrets. Keeping an individual secret is awkward at best,
but it represents triangulation at its worst.
It's also difficult on a practical level, because he said, once you start keeping
individual confidences, you have to remember what information you learn from each partner
that is expected to remain confidential, and you have to keep track of that
for every couple that you see.
So he said, for me, the concern about the clinical impact of secrets took a backseat
to the concern that I would simply screw it up, that I wouldn't be able to remember it all
and that that individual secret would spill out.
And I can understand that and I feel that as well because, and I think Ben gets to this later on
in the article, but that is something that would be a fear until it's not,
until you start to recognize that you start to trust
that if you are a therapist that is, I feel like good at what they do,
that you really can take and honor and hold to those secrets and even if you have to have a special way
to note those things or whatever that would look like,
then is the, well, I'm worried I'll blow it, just a story that your own brain is telling you
because that's this new area or there's a lot of uncertainty around that as a therapist.
Because this is where he says, over time though, my philosophy on this has changed.
He said, I'm not necessarily suggesting that yours should as well,
but he said, we each need to find the secrets policy that works best for our practices,
but I hope that my own journey on this can be useful to know.
So he said, withholding information. He said, when I had my client sign a no secrets policy,
they still had secrets.
Only now, in addition to keeping those secrets from each other, they were also keeping
those same secrets from me." Very powerful statement that he says there.
"'Anything that either partner might have been willing to tell me about in confidence,
but not in front of their partner, became something that I was never going to know.
As a couples therapist, I want to know, because that's what I need to be able to help.
So he said, for example, despite strong research showing a high prevalence of violence among couples, very few ever reported a history of violence to me.
He said affairs, when finally revealed, blindsided me as well as the other partner.
He said I kept starting therapy without critical information.
So, and that right there is if somebody is coming in and they're saying, I am being physically abused or I'm being emotionally abused, sexually abused, but I'm here and it took me forever to get here.
So if I was saying, okay, yeah, I can't keep that secret.
We need to talk about that in therapy, then okay, I now know with somewhat certainty and assurity
that that person is gonna think, oh my gosh, I can't go to anybody.
I am unsafe because if now you bring this up in therapy, I absolutely know that I will pay for this.
And that is absolutely true.
So he said a different approach to couples therapy. He said, my policy now is a little bit more nuanced
and it gives me more freedom of movement.
And I think that you as a therapist need to have the confidence to have that more nuanced
policy and allow you to have that freedom of movement. But that, you know, Spider-Man or with great knowledge comes great responsibility.
But what an honor that you have as a therapist to be able to help somebody navigate the
really difficult and murky waters of relationships with a narcissist or an emotionally
immature person. It is truly a gift to be able to work with somebody who is finally
feeling like they are waking up to this emotional immaturity in their relationship and seeking help.
And sometimes that help is masked in the couple's therapy, because they aren't even allowed
to go get individual therapy, because if they are truly in an emotionally immature narcissistic
relationship and they are being sequestered, they've already been cut off probably from
friends, from family, we don't talk about our business, we don't air our dirty laundry.
So what a wonderful opportunity you have to see and understand what that pathological
kind person's going through, and sometimes having to use the couples therapy as the muse
to be able to help that individual know how to navigate what they're dealing with or what
they're going through.
So he said, now clients agree at the beginning of couples therapy that I have the right but
not the obligation to share anything that they share with me individually.
I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and will not reveal.
So that it's interesting. So I think if you heard that first sentence where he said, I have the right, but not the obligation to share anything that they share with me individually, it may sound like, hey, I might spring this on you out of nowhere if I feel like it's the right thing to do.
But then he said, I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and not will not reveal.
And therapists, if you're listening, that, again, is a powerful way to start a couple session.
And what you're saying to your clients is that if I recognize that there's something that I feel is
not a good thing that is showing up in the relationship, then I may pull one of you aside
and I may express my clinical opinion. And I want that to be something that you will know that you
don't know what you don't know. And if I am going to do that, I'm going to come at it from a healthy
ego. This is something that I see because this is what I do." He said, when I made that change,
the couples I work with immediately became more honest with me. And right from the assessment
stage. He said, I learned that substance abuse, violent arguments, affairs, I learned about those
early on, often from individuals who wanted desperately for their partners to know without
blowing up the relationship. And I appreciate the way Ben's saying that, but I also feel like I go
back to the, or I have individuals who desperately wanted help, and this is the only way that they're
able to finally get to talk to somebody. So with that knowledge in hand, he said,
I could work with the person keeping the secret on how and when they should inform their partner.
And I would add, or if. And what I could do to plan treatment in a way that could repair their bond
or help them regain their own sense of self and get out of the negative cycle of emotional abuse
and the gaslighting. So he said, the newer policy asks more of me to be sure. It requires me to own
complete responsibility for the clinical decisions I make around secrets. And it does. And again,
if you are confident in your clinical skills and abilities, because this is something you
like to do when you're continually seeking education or improvement as a therapist.
Then this is where I want to tell you to trust your own process and that if it is something that
you do like and appreciate and you're seeking that additional information, that then this will
not seem as scary to you as a therapist. That is, as a matter of fact, you will start to recognize
real distinct patterns that you see in couples. And I'll keep going back to the what an opportunity,
what a joy to be able to provide that support and safety for somebody that is finally looking for help.
He said, sometimes it means pretending not to know something I'm aware of.
The very position that a no secrets policy is designed to help therapists avoid.
And it means that on rare occasions, I have indeed simply made a mistake.
And he said, I've revealed something before the person with the secret was ready.
And, and I hear him and that, that can be a thing that happens, but it is something that rarely happens.
So if you are a therapist that is trying to start to work with this more nuanced approach,
because you feel like you can help couples, you almost have to have that acceptance that,
yeah, that could happen. So that I'm not continually worried about building all these boundaries
so far around the fact that it could happen that I don't even get back to helping the
client based off of the knowledge that I have. He said, my treatment has also grown more
successful precisely because I now get critical information that needs to be a part of my.
Treatment planning. And I testify to that. Ben speaks the truth. So he said, new levels
of respect. And one other thing has changed that he said, I didn't expect. Clients respect
me more. When I brought these decisions under the umbrella of clinical judgment rather than
trying to address them through a blanket policy, clients saw me as more professional and more
willing to fully embrace the professional role that I was already in.
And that freedom of movement, he said that a some secrets policy provides me, made me
anxious at first, but he said it also made me better. And I would echo that and say that
over time, that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you based on the gradual
residue of lived experience as a therapist, then it does start to feel more empowering
and you start to become more comfortable with it because you start to see that you are helping
people in a new way that you never could have helped them before had you just maintained this
just flat generic basic out of grad school freckle face falling off the turnip truck therapist of a
kid who is saying, hey, I can't, I can't have you tell me that we got to bring that up in couples
therapy because you're going to lose that client. So for the next little bit here, it looks like
this episode is going to be one of the longer ones. We're going to dive into the private women's
Facebook group, and we're going to read a lot of examples of what people have experienced
in couples therapy. So let's get to that. Okay, in group, I said, Hey, everybody, on last week's
group call, we talked a little bit about how negative working with a therapist who doesn't
have experience or understand working with the narcissistic or emotionally immature person in
relationships is. That is a horrible sentence, but I think that you can get the point.
I'm absolutely saying to my fellow therapists, a legit bless your heart. I shared a bit in the
the call about how I didn't know what I didn't know when I was initially working with couples.
So I would love to be able to help other therapists possibly do a little self-confrontation and,
get there sooner rather than later.
So I shared that I am working on an episode to be able to share with your therapist or
or even send it to a new therapist ahead of time.
Of course, you are absolutely welcome to share as much as you would like, but I would love
to hear any questions that you have.
Also your experiences, both negative and positive, of therapist interactions, whether in individual
or couples therapy sessions, in or out of sessions, communication with, et cetera, on this topic.
I said no pressure, of course, but this is one of those where, how about we change the
world? And I said, okay, that's a bit much, but I think you can see where I am going.
So there are a lot of comments. There are pushing 50 comments, so we're going to take some time and I will read.
I won't necessarily comment on all of them, but I'll have some thoughts, I'm sure.
And I would love to get your thoughts. And this is one of those where if you can email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com with
your, if you have experiences, that would be wonderful.
If you're a therapist and you, and you take offense, then I understand. I hear you.
I would love your, your questions or your thoughts as well, because this is a topic
that isn't addressed very often.
And I think that it is just very important to start the, start the dialogue, start the conversations.
Permission for me to share these from the people in the group. So the first
person said we went through three therapists, all women, that he was able to
charm and convince that I was the crazy one. We would leave therapy sessions with
me in tears, not speaking to each other because he would use them to
triangulate that he was normal and I was depressed, that I had mommy issues, that I
was crazy. He would go together as a couple just long enough to convince them
of this and then would say I need to start going on my own because it's a me
issue, not an us issue. In full transparency and disclosure, this person
is somebody that I've worked with, and they said you were the first therapist that figured out what
was really going on, and he even had you convinced before meeting me that I possibly had borderline
personality disorder. And I appreciate starting off with this one because this is one of those
situations where when I first started meeting with the husband came in first, and then as he
did describe the wife that something did smell a bit off, but he was very convincing. And so I
I commented on this one.
I said, boy, if I knew what you were talking about, I was pulling the confidentiality card there.
I said, I would admit that I forgot about that part before meeting you.
Again, purely hypothetical, of course.
But after that, it was pretty clear textbook. And while I imagine the therapist that you were speaking of
still sometimes feels bad about certain things played out the way they did.
I sometimes wonder that if those experiences, and again, while I wish they didn't happen
at all, but they are almost necessary as a way to get to that point where the client
finally has had enough.
And I say that because, again, I don't think people going into couples therapy initially
think he has a personality disorder. So it's imperative to have the therapist know what to look for and what to do with
it when they see it.
And then I, of course, had to be hilarious in the post and say, thank you to this person.
That therapist sure sounds amazing.
He also sounds very bald, and I would imagine he probably snorts too, but he definitely
sounds like he knows his stuff.
And what I was referring to is that even as we were starting to put the pieces together
and he was starting to show up incredibly narcissistic and incredibly emotionally immature,
when we were trying to get to effective and healthy couples communication skills, I'm
laying out the tools, the four pillars of a connected conversation.
And he was one that would use these tools and weaponize those tools against her.
Of those people that would say a lot of, you know, I feel like she is crazy. And then he
would look at me and almost think, well, I said, I feel so I think I'm playing by the
rules and again, full transparency. And I think this is something that I think is important
for somebody listening as well as a therapist that is experienced, that is working with couples.
When I give an example of someone coming in and then they are saying, when we're doing
the four pillars where they're saying the wife says, I don't like a, you know, it's
What's hard for me is when he makes fun of, let's just say, a particular hairstyle that I wear.
And then we say, okay, take me on your train of thought. Let's hear more.
And then this person shares that they have always been self-conscious about this particular
their hair and what that looks like and how they've been teased and made fun of.
But then over time...
Then, you know, he would continue to make jokes about her hair when they were in social
situations and he started by the, no, it's, it's, it's not a big deal. I, I'm just kidding.
And that is breaking my pillar too, as telling her that her, she is wrong and that her experience is incorrect.
So even as we started to go with the framework and then we, we went on her train of thought,
she talked about how difficult that had been honestly, since, since childhood, then he
said, okay, you know what I am, I'm truly sorry. I will never, I will never make those jokes again.
I won't." And at that point, about two or three weeks later, they're back in the office.
And then she said, he did.
He made the jokes again about my hair. And then he said, yeah, but we were on a cruise though.
So we're never going to see those people again.
So it was one of those situations where he said, I will never do that again until he does it again.
Okay. Here is, this was a little bit longer. This is one of the top contributors, a moderator on the site.
She said that she really loves this idea and she had posted this on another part of the
group, but she's going to add more to it.
So she said, couple's therapy was abuse with a witness for me.
I wasn't safe at all.
The therapist didn't help me at all. The only time I felt her support was when we'd been going for six or seven months weekly.
And again, the session started with him complaining over how hard everything was for him.
She said, I just lost it. I couldn't take it anymore. I raged in her office and I even hit a table.
And I said, you are not doing anything to help yourself or me in the relationship.
I am done. I can't continue this because it's not for real.
I felt so horrible. I sent her a mail to tell her how sorry I was for getting so angry and hitting her table.
And that's when she said she thought that I was so tough and she understood that I would
have needed the support and therapy, but I never got that though.
Whenever I spoke, which she said honestly wasn't that much because it was mostly him
and his issues, he would turn it back on himself and how hard it was for him.
I now know that there's a reason why they say you shouldn't go into therapy with these
people." We went through three therapists during our crisis.
They all seemed to think I was mostly the problem because I was sensitive and I was
desperate. He came off as the hero for showing up in therapy for doing everything for us.
His logic, his rationalizations had them every time.
And he would cry a lot, which melted their hearts. And I looked hysterical.
He was a vulnerable man, which we all love, right? She said if they saw something without ever calling him out or telling me, I really, really
wish they would have done so, because it worsened. It really worsened my situation and the feeling
of me being the problem of losing my reality. I also really wish therapists would know to
look for and discover the patterns, not only of overt abuse, but the very subtle covert
abuse. I think if they would be able to grasp when someone just doesn't see another person's
perspective and doesn't have empathy, that would sure help a lot. And if they would need to know how to spot.
A true lack of empathy versus just less empathy because of a lot of resentment.
I think that was what they would think in my case. She said, you know, this is what happens
when a couple's in crisis, when there's conflict. Well, sometimes it's not just that, it's deeper,
it's much more harmful. She said, I also wish therapists would stop thinking it's always 50-50.
There are always two in the relationship, etc. She said, yes, in healthy couples, this is mostly
true, but in toxic relationships, it's not. She said, I'm not saying it's 100% on one part,
But it's just very, very unbalanced. And no matter how much of the relationship a person owns and
takes accountability for, nothing changes. And it has often come to a place where the rational
person has taken so much responsibility that it would be unhealthy for them to keep doing that
because it only makes it worse and lifts responsibility off of the transactional.
Person who is unable to take any accountability. Also, she said the therapist should be very
careful to notice in what way they say things when taking their part of the blame, because
it mostly is something that just isn't real. She said, like, sorry for what happened or
that type of thing. She said, I'll stop here. I've got so much to say. And I did. I said,
thank you. And you are writing the script for me. Thank you. I'll address the patterns as well as
the 50-50, I said, 50-50 vibe. It's definitely not even remotely close to that. I said, sometimes I
think the only percentage points that can be given to the pathologically kind person, and I will add
whether it's the male or the female are simply there because the person is continuing to exist
in that space because they don't have the tools or the knowledge to gain percentage points.
So by that, I mean they wonder if they almost have to get to 50-50 to be able to exist if
that's what they feel is best for them or their mental health or their kids."
And another person jumped in and said, now they said it's their turn to say they felt
like they could have written this and thanks for spelling it out so well.
And then another person said, I agree how therapy was treated like 50-50 with us both,
needing to find a win-win because that's what it's like in healthy relationships, but it,
only made me feel crazier as I tried again and again to implement what I was asked to do in therapy.
Another person jumped in and said, we had a therapist for a long time before we were married.
She said, I'm actually Facebook friends with her now, and I've been so tempted to message
her and to see if she ever noticed abuse or thought that I was the narcissist or emotionally
immature. She said, I haven't done it yet, but I'm curious.
And she said, it's been a long time, so she probably doesn't remember.
And I have a note to sell for the podcast in my response to her.
I said, I know that I probably don't remember everybody I've worked with.
That would be difficult, but I can't lie, I have at times wanted to reach back out to
the people I worked with in couples therapy early on in my practice, where now I do know
what I didn't know then.
And I have almost wanted to share that in an episode or two.
So I said, note to self for podcasts. One of the problems is that even new therapists occasionally end up working with couples.
And I remember having one or two couples a week and feeling like that was a lot.
And when you don't have the reps in or the training, you're honestly doing more of simply
trying to help them to hear about each other and then validate them for coming in.
And I worry at this point in my career that when a therapist is still new or doesn't have
a lot of experience or training that they are in essence almost wanting validation themselves.
That they were a good therapist by trying to help the couple feel good about the session,
regardless of what happened. And so the therapist often may not be looking for,
unfortunately, the red flags. They may think that they are doing the couple a favor by pointing out
the positives, and then darn near leading the narcissist to water by encouraging him or her
to say certain things. And again, I think this may be more about the therapist not willing to
sit with their own discomfort, followed closely by the therapist possibly wanting validation.
And then somebody chimed in and said, isn't part of it, the emotional abuse and narcissism is kind
of a new concept. She said, I haven't heard of it before in the last few years. And I really do,
I understand that. And I feel like this is one of those things where once that someone is now,
they are now more aware of it in their relationship than it is that confirmation bias.
And they start to notice that the more posts, they start to notice more people talking about
emotional maturity or narcissism. But I do feel like it is, it has gained a lot of ground and
traction. And as a person who literally has a podcast called waking up to narcissism, I have
been often told, well, you know, you must think everybody's a narcissist, which then
I appreciate the judgment by others and then have to defend their view of me, which isn't
very helpful. But I do believe that there's a lot more being talked about in the world
of emotional immaturity and narcissism. And I do wonder, I'm just going on my train of
thought that concept of I know currently I must have looked at some headphones on social
media because now all of my ads are headphones and hey dude shoes and knockoffs of hey dude
shoes because I really do enjoy wearing those are very comfortable.
But that curated content of sorts that I do wonder if somebody is looking at more and
more things around narcissism that they are going to continue to find more posts and more
recommended posts about narcissism because there are plenty of posts about narcissism.
Super quick train of thought tangent, I've had on multiple occasions where there's been
a shared computer or shared account between a narcissist or a really emotionally immature
person and their spouse or their partner.
And then all of a sudden the person, the pathologically kind person comes into sessions and says,
hey, is it weird that I'm getting a ton of dating ads for dating sites, dating apps?
And it is because their partner is looking at dating websites.
That ends up coming out over and over again because of that curated content.
She then did jump in and they were commenting and said, I have had this thought about the last therapist that treated us.
She said, I know she's a great therapist, but still her therapy.
She felt was a bit abusive. She said, I've wanted so many times to reach out and tell her what it was like for me.
I fear it though, because it could be taken as criticism.
I heard a therapist say that he had a person reach out like that and he changed
work and he grew and he learned.
And I really believe that is, again, one of those things where is the therapist doing their own work
and are they willing to self-confront and grow?
And a lot of therapists, the joke for us is that we get into therapy to fix ourselves,
but then we don't even acknowledge or know that.
But then it turns out that's pretty spot on.
But then I feel like that version of to heal myself is to get the validation I never got.
Then you can start to see how the therapist is going to say, hey, I'm the therapist.
I don't need your feedback.
And I have honestly heard many of those stories. many of those stories.
But as a therapist, I would like to think that I need to model the things that I preach.
So if somebody is saying, hey, here's what I'm noticing or what I'm seeing,
then I need to then say, okay, I wanna hear more. Tell me more.
I'm gonna jump into my own four-pillared framework. I'm gonna assume good intentions,
that there's a reason why they're saying what they're saying and then the second pillar, I can't say,
that's ridiculous, you don't understand. I'm going to sit with that discomfort
and I can't tell them no, even if I disagree.
And that third pillar is then, well, hey, tell me more about that.
What is that like for you? What do you remember about it?
Help me understand. I want to understand and I want you to feel heard and that is gonna be uncomfortable.
And then that fourth pillar, I can't go running into my bunker and saying,
okay, fine, I'm the world's worst therapist there. Are you happy?
And I will tell you a brief story here. And this is one that, boy, to this day,
it just kind of breaks my heart. I had a client long ago that was just a wonderful elderly woman.
And she at one point said that, well, you know, when you've made fun of my hair,
And I think I've told the story on the virtual couch a time or two.
So forgive me if I've told it on here as well.
But I don't, I don't have hair. I didn't from a very young age.
The last thing I'm gonna do is attack someone's physical appearance.
I really, I know that's what it feels like to be me. That is not something I would do.
So when she said, well, it's like when you've attacked me or told me that you don't like my hair.
And so boy, I had to conjure up every tool that I have because my immediate response wanted
to break all the pillars.
Well, I'd keep pillar one. She wasn't trying to hurt me, but I want to say that that is ridiculous.
I don't, I didn't do that.
I don't do that. You don't understand me. Let me now make comments before those questions.
You don't understand. And then I could go into a bunker and break pillar four
and just say, okay, I guess I don't know what I'm talking about,
but that's really hard.
And so as a therapist, I remember having to practice in that moment and say, man,
I appreciate that.
And that is so, I am so sorry. If you have felt like I have criticized or made fun of your hair,
That would be really hard, especially from somebody
that you're here for help and to trust, but that's where I'm gonna stand in that confident space
and say, but I will tell you that I am very confident that that isn't something that I do
because of here's my experience around people's hair and physical appearance.
But if that is what you are hearing, then I can understand that would be really difficult.
So back to then.
The question or the point that she made, I want to reach back out to my therapist.
I know I would like to hear that because it's an opportunity to grow, but also to know.
And then I have a situation going on right now, which is really interesting where the person
is really, really wanting, and it's a wonderful person I worked with for a long time, but they are
determined to get me to change my thoughts around something that they don't understand the amount of
work I've done to get to the point of healthy ego and the thoughts that I have around a particular
situation. It can be one where I do, I want them to bring me that data. I want them to
challenge me. I want them to self-advocate, but that doesn't mean that I have to change if that's
something that I feel very strongly about. Another person said, we had a therapist years
ago that recommended the concept of decimation therapy instead of the couples therapy because
they said that we just weren't on the same page. And that was the last time we saw her.
And as the years passed, the story started to change that we had stopped going because this
this person said that it was viewed as that they were not willing to do the work and that
the therapist had recommended that they did separation counseling because she said, I
wasn't willing, apparently I wasn't willing to do the work.
She said, we had another one that tried to help a little while ago, but ended up just
reading a lot of pages out of their educational books and just giving us a lot of pretty basic
or random homework during the appointments.
But then when I would work with that person one-on-one, then they would have a completely
different vibe and a completely different message.
And then they said, thank goodness the next therapist they had didn't knew what they were
doing and what to look for.
Another person said I woke up to my husband's narcissism right at the time We were starting couples counseling about a couple of years ago
And in the second session my husband and I described how our arguments would go and she gave very clear advice on how to bring up
Difficult discussions and what to do when things escalated call a timeout and resume when calm at this point for me
I was wrestling with the question of if the things were my fault or could he actually be abusive?
She said I followed her directions to the letter and it only escalated as verbal abuse. So I got the confirmation
I scheduled an individual session with the counselor.
She confirmed my suspicions and recommended a book called The Verbally Abusive Relationship.
And I thought, great, we're on the right track. And she understands what's happening and what to do.
But unfortunately, that's where her intervention stopped. It was like she knew how to identify the abuse, but that was it.
We would still go in and talk through our relationship issues, and my husband would
express how hard he was working to change.
A little bit was changing, but it wasn't consistent.
So she would tell us to be positive and tell me, sounds like he really does want to do better.
She said that for at least a few sessions in a row, but she seemed to forget that in
our one-on-one session that I expressed not feeling safe to fully explain my perspective.
Without having the negative repercussions at home.
And there was one specific instance, she said, when my husband and I were talking through
an event and I, for the first time since the beginning of sessions, got upset.
I expressed exasperation and rambled on for a minute. She put her hand up and said, that's enough. We get the idea.
I was floored, considering every time that we'd go in there that he would do the narcissistic
popcorn moments to me and she'd say nothing. It was confusing because I was
relieved at first and thought she was supportive of me and then I think she
overall fell for his narcissism and I just said I am so sorry on behalf of
therapist. I'm floored as well and it sounds like yeah maybe she did eventually fall for it. Another person said our therapist was getting certified
in EFT at the time we saw her. Emotionally focused therapy. That's what my four pillars are based off of. It's a wonderful couples modality model but she
only wanted to work with emotions in the room. She didn't really want to hear any
anything that happened outside of the room.
And she said, I don't know if this is common for EFT therapists.
At one point I pled with her and I said, his behavior at home is nothing like it is here.
And she missed some very important things that happened in the room.
Like in a session I told her I was frozen in fear because I had said things that I knew
he would be angry about.
And I feared he would punish me, emotionally, not physically.
He was, of course, behaving very supportively in the room. He frequently turned sessions into poor me, I'm so fragile.
Look, I'm working on my childhood wounds.
And this seemed to impress the therapist greatly. She said, I don't even know how he did it, but I felt that she was snowed.
She told me that she thought I was better at dealing with difficult emotions.
And I came in saying, I want more safety in the relationship.
Hello? She should have paid attention to those cues that something was amiss.
She said, I'm emotionally mature. She recognizes this. I tell her I don't feel safe.
Those two things together are a big clue." She said,
Here's a story. He had a rage outburst in which he slammed a sturdy wooden box
sitting in our coffee table, breaking it into pieces, me sitting across from him,
feeling very threatened. Our next session we talked about this. I cried while recounting
this and expressed my fear, and I explained I had no idea why he got angry. He also could not name
why he was angry. Also, a huge red flag. Wouldn't that be to the therapist? And if someone isn't
even aware of why they're angry, and if that is the case, shouldn't that be discussed?
He then cancelled the next two sessions unilaterally directly with her and she never checked in
with me to see if I was safe or in agreement with the cancellation of the sessions.
She said I'm mad about that. I would bring stuff up from the past and get the impression that she interpreted this as
me hanging on to old resentments and not being forgiven.
And also like it was irrelevant because we were just going to be vulnerable together
in the room while she helped us and then we'd learn new ways of relating and yay, everything would be fine.
She said I was trying so desperately to show her that it was a pattern.
It wasn't something new. I, too, could go on and on." He said in one session that he had told her in an individual session that he probably
wanted a divorce.
And I feel like she should have shared that with me or talked about it with both of us
when he told that to her.
That seems like a huge thing I should have been made aware of if I was still trying to
be so vulnerable. She said, okay, I'll stop.
And I just shared, thanks for sharing, yes to the red flags, and I feel just so bad that,
she never checked in, that you have every right to be mad about that.
And I talked about basing my four pillars off of emotionally focused therapy, and I
I feel like EFT is a great tool, but if somebody is so focused on the tool,
then they may be missing the bigger story that's happening in the room.
The next person said, when my soon-to-be narcissistic ex and I
finally went to counseling a full six months
after me saying that I wanted a divorce and begging him to do therapy with me,
the counselor said he knew that he wouldn't be able to help us if one of the three A's were present,
addition, abuse, or affair.
Okay, it literally says addition. I know it means addiction.
I don't think, I think math is okay in a relationship, Although I'm going to be completely honest and vulnerable, I am not a huge fan of math,
but I'm pretty confident that 3A is addiction, abuse, or affair.
But she said, how can somebody that has finally convinced their narcissist to go to therapy,
with them honestly so I could say and feel like I had done everything I could try to do to stay.
Be brave enough in that first session to say or even admit to themselves that this was abuse.
But I understand the need for the therapist to have the disclaimer, but in situations such as
ours in this group, knowing the additional abuse that we'll have to endure if we tell anybody,
what is really going on, how do we do this? We can't just hope the therapist picks up on what
is happening. I don't know what the solution is. I wish I had suggestions. Maybe like somebody
mentioned, these kinds of abuse need to be focused more in training and in schooling.
To which then I replied, I really, I appreciated her sharing. I see her and she nailed it. Knowing
about the additional abuse, and I am sorry that when people have to go through that and not saying
we're a horrible profession, but we just don't know what we don't know as well. And there does
need to be a lot more training on that. So again, to the therapists that are listening, and I
understand that I can understand when somebody would say, I can't help if there's one of these
three things present, that I would maybe want to suggest that you learn that as you are talking to
a couple more. Maybe it's a more in-depth assessment. Maybe it's giving yourself a
little bit more runway during the assessment to try to understand to see if that is something
that you can help one of the people if they are in severe distress. The next person said,
I went for my first solo session and this was just over the past week when this post was put
out and it's been quite a while. She said, in the hour we discussed what I was there for and
the therapist just told me that I was never going to be happy in my current relationship and that
he is never going to change. She said, I felt like it was a lot to say in the first session.
Is this typical?
And I said, yeah, in my honest opinion, that is a lot to say.
And I said, I'll address this in a couple of ways when I record.
I feel like, again, this is more about the therapist wanting to help, of course,
but wanting either the validation subconsciously that they can already identify and see what's going on
and what needs to happen.
And again, I may think that, I do, I often find myself thinking those same things.
One of the greatest marriage therapists of all time, John Gottman, says that he can spot
whether or not a couple will get a divorce, I think it's within the first 15 minutes.
And I understand where he is coming from with that. I truly do.
But that doesn't mean that then I need to just say that immediately because the people that are coming in,
it's taken a lot to get somebody to come into counseling, to therapy, especially two people to come into couples
counseling, couples therapy.
And so I feel like that is what one of the other people said, it's part of the process of trying to figure out
if I've done everything that I can do.
So to be told in the first session that he'll never change, you will never be happy, and this is done.
That's a lot because you're talking to somebody is still trying to figure out
what their relationship looks like.
Not the therapist saying, I see all these patterns, even though we do, when you've been doing this
for a long time, and so then therefore trust me. They don't know me.
They're just trying to start to figure out their own situation, their own life, their own marriage.
So then the person said, I guess I wasn't ready to hear that, so bluntly, I know that feeling
hangs over my head every day, but I'm just stuck forever, hoping that it'll take those steps to heal
and work on his emotional immaturity.
The therapist said it's a lost cause, and he would help coach me on a journey to my happiness.
It was my first session, and I had never experienced an approach like this.
I realize now how my walls are so big because I left there feeling like he was just trying
to tell me what I wanted to hear instead of actually being interested in helping.
Or maybe I am my own worst enemy and can't see the answers laid out in front of me, and,
I sit here wondering now if it is something that we should just have pursued together,
or if I should just continue by myself on this journey and I'm left more alone than ever.
Another person came in and said, I think it can definitely be a rock and a hard place for the
couples therapist. They can't assume too much and don't know enough to be able to see the right
place to fit in. I think individual confidential questionnaires before a couple session is helpful,
but that has to be with the therapist you trust, not to throw you under the bus if you check no
to do you feel safe. She said, our couples counselor was EFT trained as well. I really
liked her approach and the concept of the cycle and the attachments and the disagreements being
sort of a third party. The idea that if we can remove each other as the problem, we can
actively solve the real problem. I know I felt very defensive and worn down in my marriage
when we started counseling, but I wouldn't have said that I was being emotionally abused
or that he was a narcissist. A few times I did say the things he was responding to me
in counseling was narcissistic, but she never labeled anything.
She said, I'll share the most defining moment of our counseling, though. He had spent weeks
talking about all the things that were wrong with me and all the help I needed. And just
look at her over there emotionally unstable. I'd already started individual counseling and I've been working for years and healing deeper wounds.
And I feel like our counselor saw that. She stopped my ex and said,
You want her to do all this healing to be better so you can be?
But also, I see that she's trying, she's fighting to keep her head above water,
but she can't heal in the environment that you're providing her.
All of your actions are re-traumatizing her and doing the opposite of helping her heal.
So what is it that you really want?
And this person said, I'm paraphrasing it, but it was something to that extent.
And I feel like in that moment, she validated me and where I was at
and also called him out without being too offensive.
She said, at the end of the day, I think individual counseling is the only way to go
until the kind partner has re-identified enough self-worth to fight for themselves and the marriage,
as well as the marriage. And I think that makes it blatantly obvious
within the first few couple sessions
if there's anything to even salvage.
And I just said, thank you for sharing that defining moment because I really feel that, I do.
And I wouldn't expect him to have the aha moment, but I love that she picked up on that and felt seen.
And she said, you know, I think he did sort of have an aha moment,
but not in the direction I would have hoped. In hindsight, I realized somewhere along the line
that his aha moment was, I don't want to be married if I can't be in control
and she won't be obedient, which I think that's so beautifully said.
She said, I really do think validation is so important and not just the I hear you
or those other stereotypical therapist phrases, of specific validation to a situation.
I've just got a couple more here. Another person said, we tried therapy when I had no idea
what was going on in our marriage.
And my narcissistic ex walked away from three different therapists,
two of whom I continued to see by myself for some time.
Both of them understood at least to some degree that he was seeking control in the relationship,
and were able to help me make some progress in my personal healing.
As our marriage reached the breaking point, my narcissistic ex asked me to go with him
to see a therapist he had chosen.
She had treated many of his coworkers.
Our conversation seemed helpful enough, but I never felt truly understood by her.
Even when I stated directly that I thought his behavior was abusive, she directed me
to the change first principle over and over again.
And I would try, but I couldn't help thinking, I've been changing first for a long time,
when is it his responsibility?
After a year of seeing her on and off, she one day told us somewhat reluctantly that,
she had a diagnosis for each of us.
She then announced that he had borderline personality disorder and that I was narcissistic. I was shocked.
I knew that was incorrect. I felt so completely not seen by this person I had trusted to help us.
He had her wrapped around his finger.
Now in the end, she said that we needed to work on improving our communication.
She told me that if I thought I needed to be fixed, that she wasn't the therapist for me,
and I never went back.
My narcissistic ex heard every word of that conversation, and I feel that she caused a lot of harm
by giving him a diagnosis to then use against me.
I expect he has at least told two of my oldest kids that I'm a narcissist,
and now I have little to no contact with my children because of the picture that he has painted.
I just said I am so sorry, and I appreciated her sharing that,
and it just is so crazy.
That is one special therapist, and I'm being very sarcastic, I hope you can tell,
who can and will and thinks it's helpful to drop off a couple of personality disorder diagnoses
and then in essence say, now, go work on your communication.
Because if she honestly thought that you both had personality disorders, seriously,
then there is no chance of improving communication.
And again, for a therapist to even think that that's the path to healing, it blows my mind.
So again, I appreciate her sharing this. And the person said, thank you for validating
just crazy it felt to me.
Okay, I have a couple more. Remember, these are real stories that are coming from people that are sharing in this group about a post about their experience in couples therapy.
And I go back to my disclaimer in the beginning. This is not a get the pitchforks for a therapist.
This is helping people that have had unfortunate experiences in therapy not feel alone, help them feel heard and understood, and hopefully help a therapist, if you're hearing this, be able to sit back and self-reflect and self-confront and all of those wonderful therapy things.
Wonderful therapy things. And if you feel like this is something that you don't do,
then that's wonderful. That really is. And maybe even here in these stories, you'll
have somebody come into your office and they will say these things. And instead of you
saying, well, I'm sure that there were two sides to every story, then you say, man, that
sounds hard. I have heard, I have heard similar things. You are, you are not crazy. I'm glad
you're here. So with that said, a couple more, this one's, this one's pretty interesting.
She said, I can't let this post go without telling you about the worst and most crazy
therapy experience that I have had with my ex.
It was the first time we went to therapy many, many years ago.
I've been asking him again and again, but he was refusing to go.
I had very poor health and it felt like he was working 24 hours a day, seven days a week,
so there was no space for me to heal.
I was desperate for somebody to help us learn how to communicate better.
So we finally accepted to go see a therapist about family, life, etc.
The therapist was just a random one that we got in an office of family therapists.
The whole session started with the therapist talking about my situation in a very condescending way.
Then my husband told him everything about how hard it was for him that we didn't have
enough sex, and that I was exhausted from illness and depression, also only relating into our sex life.
He cried a lot. I'm assuming that she means her husband and not the therapist.
And the therapist kept saying to me, look at this guy, look how bad he's feeling and look how hard
this is for him. I tried telling them both my side of the story and to reach in and what it was that
I also needed in order to be better. And even saying I really wanted and needed it too. How
attracted I really was to him. And, but then I would be brushed off if I made a move or an advance
on him. I said I needed it to be good, but it also had to be on my terms too, that I had a voice.
But then I was basically shut down. The session ended with the therapist saying,
what you guys should do is you should go home and just have sex every day. Just have sex no
matter what. And if you like the idea and you're into it, you can even, I don't know, spank her a
bit for how she's made you feel. And then she says in all caps, this is no joke. It really happened.
And actually, it happened. She said, I was deeply shocked and only years later
realized I should have made a complaint on the therapist and his interventions.
And she said, what do you think of that therapy session, Tony, I'm curious.
And she said, I do hope that you can read my humorous tone about it.
She said, I'm very much able to laugh about it now, but it wasn't very funny then,
and I think much worse than I ever realized at that time.
And I did, I said, I love humor, I appreciate the humorous tone, but holy cow.
I'm so glad that she had asked if I read it a humorous tone because I wanted to get the pitchforks on this one and go get the guy
because that is insane. She definitely did not feel heard and understood. And the guy,
her husband just had a platform there to say, Hey, uh, I think we just need to be having
more sex. That will fix everything because it won't. But then I let her know that I have
heard similar things. People that come into my office, unfortunately they do get to, even
again, I go back to the therapist sometimes goes in to figure out his own stuff. So I'm
I'm just going to be very transparent for my podcast listeners, the audience.
And this is what I did say within the group. I said, if somebody, a therapist wants to feel validated and trying to have sex with
their spouse every day and then spank their spouse, then unfortunately they have a
platform that if they throw that out to others and others say, okay, I will do that
too in an odd way, it can validate what that therapist wants to do or wants to see
happening in their life.
And I'm very aware of that in my own therapy of things where if I'm talking about ways
to navigate a faith journey or if I'm talking about ways to set boundaries with family members
that you can go pull data all you want.
You if it's something that you are feeling or more passionate about then I know that there's a different energy or vibe that comes with it
And so there's always that being aware as a therapist of is any of this again. Is this about me at all?
Is this a counter transference move? I remember a therapist one time that was a client of mine telling me that he grew up with with parents who who there were
Alcohol alcoholism in the family and so he said whenever he would have couples or clients in his office that would talk about
about being drunk and getting into fights,
that he couldn't help himself.
And he would say, hey, so where are the kids at this point? When you're talking about this,
when you guys are screaming at each other, when you locked him out of the house,
when you were just yelling at each other, but you're saying now, I know, but we were drunk.
And this person told me one time that the couple that he was working with,
they said, I'm sure they're fine. They don't say anything about it.
And I think the kids at the time, somewhere between nine and 12 years old.
And this therapist said that that was where he first learned about this concept of counter-transference,
where he wanted to say, oh, they were aware.
They really were, but he knew that wasn't really what they were there talking about at that time.
That example is really interesting.
The post, the person who initiated that post, that last piece said, she said,
I figure there must have been some kind of projection going on there, a counter-transference, she said, I guess,
but it was madness.
And she said, I imagined him, the therapist, being so happy with himself that he'd fixed this couple
and now they must be living happily ever after.
She said, years later, I was going through this nightmare and when she was going through the discard phase
that we've talked about this on the podcast, the narcissistic discard.
And she said, we went to a restaurant, my husband, my son, and I, and there he was,
the therapist at another table with his wife.
And he said, and she said, They had such a different vibe of odd energy to them.
And she said, I was truly in hell at that moment in my life, and I kept thinking, there you are,
oblivious of the damage that you caused in that moment. And if you would have recognized us,
you would have thought you did wonders with your therapy as my husband was masking and I was
pretending, but I was barely surviving for the love of my son. She said it was such a surreal
moment. Okay, we have just a couple more. One person said, our therapist suggested that my
spouse has dysthymia. And dysthymia, if I'm pulling my grad school days or clinical diagnosis
classes, it's a persistent, persistent depressive disorder. So it's more of a long-term, but
more low-grade form of depression. You can have bouts of more major depressive symptoms,
but it's not to be confused with a major depressive disorder. But she said, our therapist suggested
my spouse has dysthymia. I think he sensed something was off, but maybe didn't catch
the covert narcissism. Strangely, the therapist was quite experienced, so maybe covert narcissism,
she asked, is new. And I think it goes back to what we talked about a little bit earlier,
that it's absolutely being talked about more. And she said, I felt like my therapist wanted
to win the trust of my spouse because he was the type who would never go to therapy. We,
worked a lot on validation. I learned to validate and differentiate, but brought up how my spouse
finds validation useless and feels it gives the receiver a false sense of agreement.
Now I struggle to validate because I feel like I'm validating the mask he's wearing and not
the true emotions underneath. When I point out to my spouse what I think is actually going on,
I get gaslit. I only started owning my life when I ended marriage counseling and started life
coaching through a friend of mine about progress. And she said, those, Monica Packer, those four
months breathe life into me. And I really do appreciate that. Oh, there's my reply about
progress. I love Monica. I've had her on my podcast and I was on hers. But what I like about
this, and maybe I should have, don't shoot on myself, but this we could do basically a lot of a big gun.
Take 15. I could do a lot of content on this one post alone, because if we're now talking to the
therapist, and this is where I think things maybe more understanding needs to be had,
that this person brings up a great point where she said, I felt like my therapist wanted to
win the trust of my spouse because he was the type who would never go to therapy.
So we worked a lot on validation. And just in the, here's where we want to get the dialogue going for
therapists is that this is where I feel like when you have enough reps in, when this is
something that is just passionate to you, when you're continually seeking the latest
and the greatest concepts and models of therapy, and you're listening to podcasts about couples
therapy or couples modalities, or you're, I don't know, watching the shows on Netflix
and there's a couples one on HBO and Showtime and watching real therapy and just so curious
about the human condition, that if this is the thing that you have found, that this is not the
socially compliant goal, it isn't the thing that you think, well, I'm supposed to have a job and I
think I kind of like therapy. If it's the thing that you have now found is what brings you just
the most joy and passion and sense of purpose, that is where when you've got the reps in, where.
I think it is absolutely fair when I started earlier in the podcast talking about Ben Caldwell
in the blog post that he made about the no secrets policy, and that it does put more
pressure on the therapist. But when you have seen the same things over and over and over,
and we're talking like hundreds of times, not just a few, that there are times where
it would be necessary to try and build more of the rapport with the person who is more therapy
resistant. But then that's where I think scrapping that no secrets policy is so important and getting
the person who is the more maybe pathologically kind person to understand a little bit of
a trusting you and that trust this process and the framework that you're working with
or from, because you want to make sure that person feels seen and heard and understood,
and also to let them know that, okay, but I also recognize that you have somebody that's
coming into therapy that doesn't necessarily want to be here and we don't know yet if they
they are willing to self-confront or do the work, and so that it can be scary.
And so I want to tell the person, hey, I'm going to do all that I can with the tools
that I have, and I'm going to be very honest, but it probably will look a little bit one-sided at times.
And I go in and say early on in my couples therapy that I'm going to be somewhat of
an equal opportunity offender, because I want to make sure that there are things, whether
we're talking about semantics, whether we're talking about, hey, I'm noticing that you
both are using all or nothing statements.
He always, she never.
It's been five years since, and I bring up the concepts around what I call these reactants
hooks. Again, reactants is this instant negative reaction of being told what to do.
And when you're sitting there in a couples session and you're early on and I'm trying
to lay out a framework that I will insist on, my four pillars, so that we can see, can,
they even play in that sandbox that has a framework.
Kind of a weird analogy, a sandbox framework, I'm thinking of a jungle gym for some reason.
But at that point though of saying, okay, even take a look at the all or nothing statements
or the 10 times or five years. And then what happens when somebody says,
he never owns up to his, the things he does, or I, he has never said, sorry.
You can watch as the, from the couple's van, the therapist vantage point, you can watch
him in this scenario, tune out, because now what he's doing is trying to remember, okay,
I remember two years ago where I said, sorry, or I remember it has not been always, or here
now they're queuing up their own. Oh yeah, well, you never do it either. And so it sometimes
is necessary to trust your own gut instinct and know that this is what the people are
paying you for. It is to help them come up with these tools and be able to use the tools,
yes, on their own out in the wild,
but remembering that with the population that we're talking about,
if we're talking about most people, I believe, truly are coming into situations more emotionally immature
and not knowing what they don't know,
well, who in the room does know?
It's probably the therapist.
So if you are feeling more confident about that, and I think it is okay, Mr. and Mrs. or the therapist.
To start to lean into that areas that you feel from a healthy ego that you do feel confident about.
And what I love about talking about healthy ego is that you know the things you know because of your experience.
And what comes with the healthy ego is also the awareness of there are absolutely things I don't know.
So I'm going to start to lean into my own understanding and strength of the things I do know
that I've continued to see play out, that patterns are, they are there for a reason
reason, because the patterns occur because that is the way that maybe our brains work.
I'm open to the point of seeing something happen completely different, but after a long
amount of time and experience, you really do start to see some incredibly specific and
just these patterns that happen. And you, it can absolutely help your client to be able
to pull one aside and say, I see you and I see what is happening and I want you to trust
me a little bit here and we're going to try to get this framework in place and you can
ask me questions and you can and I will hold those confidences because I'm grateful you're
here and I see the work that you're doing to get somebody to come into therapy that
doesn't want to and is only maybe come in now that you are at your wits end because.
That is part of the problem when with emotionally immature couples where it has to blow up before
somebody will do something.
Now we're back to that concept of, okay, fine. He in this scenario would come in and then say,
no, I get it. Well, I'll do better. And so then if we are being honest, if that's one of those
areas where, okay, don't just say we're, we're good. Cause that would be easy for the therapist
to go, okay, cool. He gets it. And for the wife to say, okay, this worked. And for him to say,
they, they both are smiling. Yeah, that feels pretty good. And then they exit. And then I call
it a shelf life, two weeks, maybe a month. And then something happens again. And then it can be
absolutely even more painful because now you've got, they've got new tools. Well, you know,
the therapist said that you have to work on things too, or, oh, I guess you expect me to be perfect.
Now the therapist actually told me that you're crazy too. I mean, and then here comes the
triangulation and now we've got therapy to throw out into the mix as well.
Okay, so my response in that one, where this person said that she got a lot of growth from
then her life coach. And so then I said, in talking about that, I said, I appreciate her
saying that the therapist worked to win the trust of the spouse. And I said, I honestly
do understand that. And I feel like there is a lot there to look at as a therapist.
I'll own that too, that I too will sometimes validate the narcissist or the emotionally
immature experience. And I've shared a few times on episodes that here's the thing I want to make
make sure that we get with this concept, is that the narcissist or the emotionally immature
person is so used to conflict because it gives them the fuel or supply to engage that then
if I find myself just saying, well, what would it look like if you did this?
You're more empathetic or whatever, and they're saying, oh, I've done that.
I mean, yeah, I've already tried that. Check that box.
So then when I say something like, or a therapist says something like, man, okay, I hear you
telling me that you feel like you've done everything you can do, then what that translates
to for the emotionally immature narcissistic person who is so used to conflict that I believe
that translates in their mind to see even the therapist agrees because I'm not arguing with them.
And that's in a sense, that's almost like what they want you to do is to have a little
dust up, to have a little row, you know, to argue.
So I feel like there is a fine line there of validating versus truly agreeing.
Now both are going to be weaponized, but I feel like if I try to go out of the way to,
educate the non-narcissist of the difference, then that can be very helpful.
So when I validate my pillar two, I can't tell them they're crazy even if I feel or
maybe I know that they, maybe crazy is the wrong word, but they are what I'm seeing,
and I don't allow them to immediately argue.
Then hopefully then the non-narcissist or the less emotionally immature person recognizes
that I do see them in that moment. I hear them and I am not, I want them to see I'm not telling him he's right.
I'm reflectively listening.
So I was so grateful for the way that she shared that.
More and this is probably the longest episode I've ever done so I think that I'm going to save a few
of these and I'm sure that I'm going to get some questions and then we're going to we're going to
jump into another one of these down the road. While I have you and if you are still listening
Bless your heart. I really appreciate it.
On that, what just came up for me, and I'm going to talk so much about this, I think, moving forward,
but I had the opportunity to interview Reed Harkless, the director of a movie called Sam Now,
and that episode is going to come out on the virtual couch probably in a week or two,
and I'll run it here on Waking Up to Narcissism in a few weeks as a bonus episode.
But when I was just reading that part that I just had a little aha moment,
but reading that part where if I'm not arguing with the narcissist or the more emotionally
immature person that I feel like then they feel like I agree with them. This is so out of context,
I highly, highly recommend the movie Sam Now. It's a documentary and wait till you hear the
interview with Reed. It was one of my, I don't know, I can't stop thinking about it. It was one
of my favorite interviews I think I've ever done. And I just, I, when I watched the movie a few days
ago, I had a separate screen up and I just took as many notes as I could. But again, completely
out of context, there's a narcissistic character or a very emotionally immature character in the
documentary. And she says, this is right out of her mouth. And so I think that this is so powerful.
Because I think now those that are still listening, especially if you're still listening,
I think you'll really understand where, why I found this so significant. The person said,
you need people to engage with you. And the only way you know how to do it is at this one level,
you get into this spiral and you get whipped up like the Tasmanian devil and you can't get out
of it. It's like a toddler who can't get out of it until you have some type of catharsis.
You end up hurting somebody or hurting yourself, and that stops it. So I just thought that was so
powerful where she hears somebody that is, and this wasn't like a, oh, and she's better now.
It was just, I felt like it caught her in a very real, very raw moment where she just recognized,
man, yeah, when I try to have conversations, I just, I get, I just get that. And what I believe
is that narcissistic supply where I just need that person to engage just to know I exist and I don't
know how to not to do it in the way that I'm doing it. So I think that that was just so important.
I can't wait to get that episode out. Thank you. I don't even know how long this episode is,
but I would love therapist questions and they send them to contact at tonyoverbay.com.
I would love more examples of what you've experienced in couples therapy because I
want to do more episodes on this because we do need to bring more awareness to
to working with emotionally immature and narcissistic couples and relationships
because that key again is that no one knows
that this person is or isn't a narcissist or emotionally immature or when they come in the door.
And so to just all of a sudden make this judgment call immediately and then just say run
or it has to look like this or if you're experiencing, you know, if you're a big fan of addition,
we cannot do couples therapy.
That's a callback. Thanks again, everybody. I'll see you next time on Waking Up to Narcissism.
Music.