WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.800 Music. 00:00:06.796 --> 00:00:11.366 Hey everybody, welcome to episode 78 of Waking Up to Narcissism. I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a 00:00:11.366 --> 00:00:16.246 licensed marriage and family therapist and host of the Virtual Couch podcast as well as Murder 00:00:16.246 --> 00:00:20.795 on the Couch. And we'll just, we'll get right to the content today. But if you will take a peek, 00:00:21.641 --> 00:00:28.726 at the show notes, you'll see a Linktree link. I think it's link.tree or linktree.com slash 00:00:28.726 --> 00:00:34.886 virtual couch. And there you can find marriage courses and parenting things and latest podcasts 00:00:34.886 --> 00:00:40.326 and all those sort of things. So check that out and I still would love if you want to have questions 00:00:40.326 --> 00:00:44.726 and answers, learn everything you want to know about narcissism and emotional immaturity, 00:00:44.726 --> 00:00:50.246 you can subscribe to my premium Waking Up to Narcissism question and answer podcast. So that 00:00:50.246 --> 00:00:56.566 is up there as well. So let's start with another poem today. And this is from a listener and she 00:00:56.566 --> 00:01:00.486 said, Hello, I've been finding your podcast episodes incredibly helpful. I feel lucky to 00:01:00.486 --> 00:01:04.285 have come across them and wanted to thank you for what you do. I wrote a poem about my relationship. 00:01:04.636 --> 00:01:08.597 I felt inspired from your readings of the writings that listeners have shared with you. 00:01:08.966 --> 00:01:11.459 I had to share it somewhere and I thought this could be the place. Thank you. 00:01:11.955 --> 00:01:12.406 Here's the poem. 00:01:13.332 --> 00:01:19.210 I believe in him because I love him. I want him to succeed, even though believing makes me bleed and bleed and bleed. 00:01:19.679 --> 00:01:25.368 I do the heavy lifting. I pull more than my weight, even when the ground gets icy and I don't know how to skate. 00:01:25.917 --> 00:01:31.309 It feels like I'm a beggar for crumbs that he can spare, desperate for a pinch of his tender loving care. 00:01:31.859 --> 00:01:36.486 To matter as much as he does to himself and not feel like a toy collecting dust on the shelf. 00:01:37.206 --> 00:01:42.166 In the beginning, I felt known. I felt loved and seen, lost and love-bombing like a perfumed dream. 00:01:42.832 --> 00:01:48.086 Now it's me and the rubble of who I used to be, struggling to decipher what's him and what's me. 00:01:48.774 --> 00:01:57.126 I believe in him because I love him. I want him to succeed, even though believing makes me bleed and bleed and bleed. He says he wants to change. His worry 00:01:57.126 --> 00:02:02.286 seems sincere, to leave him in the cold now fills my heart with fear. What if I could 00:02:02.286 --> 00:02:07.967 break the odds? What if I take that chance? Can I outlast the devil and his wicked dance? 00:02:08.706 --> 00:02:12.369 Should I keep moving my feet to this old dance I've known for the slightest chance that 00:02:12.546 --> 00:02:17.266 something good has grown? Or should I cut and run with crumbs in an empty bowl, still 00:02:17.646 --> 00:02:21.326 loving and needing him, but needing more to feel whole? 00:02:22.286 --> 00:02:27.086 So thank you for sharing that and I would just encourage anybody that also has tried 00:02:27.086 --> 00:02:30.086 their hand at poetry or anything. 00:02:30.337 --> 00:02:36.046 I think I did. I read a haiku at one point or if there's a narrative, a story, but feel free to share 00:02:36.046 --> 00:02:40.126 because I feel like the more that people are sharing about their experience, the more that 00:02:40.126 --> 00:02:45.446 people are starting to realize that they are not alone and that these relationships, these 00:02:45.446 --> 00:02:50.046 things are maybe a little bit more common than people would like to think. 00:02:50.046 --> 00:02:54.006 And that means that we're starting to get more traction, and people are starting to get the tools 00:02:54.006 --> 00:02:54.751 that they need for help. 00:02:55.796 --> 00:03:00.366 So today I want to talk about a concept that one of the people that I admire the most in the Private 00:03:00.366 --> 00:03:05.194 Women's Facebook group brought up and she shared an article and this is called Intermittent 00:03:05.356 --> 00:03:10.446 Reinforcement and the article, and I'll link to this as well in the show notes, but the article 00:03:10.446 --> 00:03:15.718 comes from a site called Feeling is Healing, Embrace Your Feelings, Embrace Your Dreams, 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:23.646 and it is a site based out of the UK. So it's feelingishealing.co.uk and it's just simply 00:03:23.646 --> 00:03:25.656 simply titled Intermittent Reinforcement. 00:03:26.506 --> 00:03:31.562 So before we turn to the article, let me just set the table on this concept of intermittent reinforcement. 00:03:32.006 --> 00:03:37.906 So if you look at narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships, they are often addictive in nature. 00:03:37.906 --> 00:03:41.706 They feel addictive to somebody that is caught in this trauma bond. 00:03:41.706 --> 00:03:45.346 And this concept of intermittent reinforcement will explain why. 00:03:45.346 --> 00:03:49.206 And I got permission from this person, but I was trading texts with someone last week 00:03:49.575 --> 00:03:54.346 and they are finally trying to really wrap their heads around what this trauma bond is. 00:03:54.653 --> 00:03:59.091 And they have been in a horribly emotionally abusive and at times physically abusive relationship, 00:03:59.496 --> 00:04:04.106 but they shared with me in a text that they said they're just struggling not to talk to this person 00:04:04.106 --> 00:04:08.426 so much. They just said they miss this person. They said that they were tagged in some photos 00:04:08.426 --> 00:04:13.706 online recently and just seeing this person really triggered my client. And they just said not knowing 00:04:13.706 --> 00:04:18.666 anything is just so difficult. They just want to know, they want answers, and as we'll talk 00:04:18.666 --> 00:04:26.186 talk about today, they really just want that dopamine bump, they want certainty. And so what intermittent reinforcement, where that 00:04:26.186 --> 00:04:33.386 comes from, it originates from B.F. Skinner's theories on operant conditioning and behaviorism. So let me try and just make a 00:04:33.386 --> 00:04:40.141 little bit more sense of those two concepts, because this is a very important thing to set the table for why we get to this 00:04:40.266 --> 00:04:46.586 intermittent reinforcement, which is such a major factor of the trauma bond. So what is operant conditioning? It's a learning 00:04:46.586 --> 00:04:53.086 process in which behavior is shaped and it's maintained by consequences. So by the consequences 00:04:53.266 --> 00:04:56.939 that follow a behavior. So in other words, an individual's behavior can be modified based. 00:04:57.646 --> 00:05:02.611 On the rewards or the punishments that they experience as a result of the behavior. So 00:05:02.766 --> 00:05:07.106 here's a pretty simple example. So suppose a teacher wants to encourage her students 00:05:07.106 --> 00:05:11.703 to turn in their homework on time. So she decides to implement a sticker reward system. 00:05:11.946 --> 00:05:17.023 You get a gold star where students who consistently hand in their homework on time receive this gold star sticker. 00:05:17.617 --> 00:05:21.398 So, in this scenario, the students quickly learn that the desired behavior, which is 00:05:21.747 --> 00:05:28.303 turning in the homework on time, is followed by a positive consequence of getting a gold star. 00:05:28.867 --> 00:05:32.627 So, as a result, they are more likely to repeat the behavior in the future to receive the 00:05:32.627 --> 00:05:38.872 gold star. And this is just a simple example of operant conditioning in practice. 00:05:39.067 --> 00:05:40.510 So then there's behaviorism. 00:05:40.827 --> 00:05:44.120 So behaviorism is also proposed by B.F. Skinner. 00:05:44.525 --> 00:05:50.227 A theory of learning that then focuses solely on observable behaviors. So this is not taking 00:05:50.227 --> 00:05:54.547 into account any independent activities, things that are going on in the mind, cognitions, 00:05:54.547 --> 00:05:59.647 thoughts. So this theory, so again, behaviorism, which right in the name, it's behaviors, suggests 00:05:59.647 --> 00:06:04.907 that all behaviors are either conditioned, which would mean learned, or unconditioned, 00:06:04.907 --> 00:06:09.267 which would mean that they are just innate. They're just the way what we do. And it emphasizes 00:06:09.267 --> 00:06:14.287 the role of reinforcement, punishment, and then your environment in shaping your behavior. 00:06:14.767 --> 00:06:19.013 So again, we've got this, we've got these two concepts. We've got operant conditioning. 00:06:19.867 --> 00:06:23.387 And then we've got behaviorism. Well, let me give you an example then of behaviorism. 00:06:23.387 --> 00:06:27.067 I mean, I think you could probably come up with one on your own, but think about a kid 00:06:27.067 --> 00:06:31.427 that is learning to clean their room. Every time that they clean their room, their parents 00:06:31.427 --> 00:06:35.907 praise them and then give them a reward, maybe some extra playtime. So according to Skinner's 00:06:35.907 --> 00:06:38.998 behaviorism, the child then starts associating cleaning their room with the 00:06:39.247 --> 00:06:44.127 positive reinforcement of praise and extra playtime. And Skinner isn't talking 00:06:44.127 --> 00:06:50.620 about this, but if you start talking about relational frame theory, then they'll have in the same frame the concept of cleaning their room and 00:06:50.727 --> 00:06:55.607 reward. So then those those two start to be associated together. And this is just 00:06:55.607 --> 00:07:02.767 my theory, unsupported, unscientific, is that then if we really go back to looking at the brain as a don't-get-killed device, that your brain is 00:07:02.767 --> 00:07:06.827 working off of this flawed premise that it has a finite amount of electrical activity, 00:07:06.827 --> 00:07:11.964 which is why we want to habitualize so many things from behaviors to even thought processes, 00:07:12.414 --> 00:07:16.294 then the sooner that you can cram something into a relational frame, good or bad, 00:07:16.647 --> 00:07:19.847 your brain's gonna do it because it will require less electrical activity 00:07:19.847 --> 00:07:22.387 when it's coming from this habit center of your brain, 00:07:22.587 --> 00:07:28.735 that basal ganglia, the little walnut-sized part of the brain that is where things go when you just get them down, 00:07:28.952 --> 00:07:34.107 when you habitualize these behaviors and then you use less brain power, less electrical activity. 00:07:34.107 --> 00:07:38.827 Again, working off the flawed premise that you're gonna run out of electrical activity 00:07:38.827 --> 00:07:40.357 in the brain and die. 00:07:40.467 --> 00:07:46.164 So the brain is, for as wonderful and intelligent it is, sometimes it's not very bright either. 00:07:46.867 --> 00:07:51.507 So if we go back to this example, so then that praise, the extra playing time, 00:07:51.507 --> 00:07:56.192 that positive reinforcement, then the kid is more likely to repeat that behavior in the future. 00:07:56.427 --> 00:08:00.387 So their behavior cleaning the room is shaped by the consequence of their action. 00:08:00.907 --> 00:08:03.799 So this external stimulus of a reward. 00:08:04.781 --> 00:08:10.791 So take those two solid concepts and I don't know if you ever saw the movie The Fly. The only one I 00:08:10.791 --> 00:08:14.151 ever saw was the one with Jeff Goldblum back in the day. I don't even know what year that would 00:08:14.151 --> 00:08:18.551 have been, probably a long time ago. But if I remember correctly, he's trying to transport 00:08:18.551 --> 00:08:24.711 himself from one pod to the next, but then a fly gets in with him. So when he teleports or 00:08:24.711 --> 00:08:30.791 transports to the other pod, now all of a sudden he has fly DNA in him and he can see really well 00:08:30.791 --> 00:08:34.137 and he can stick the walls and he vomits on his food and those sort of things. 00:08:34.991 --> 00:08:38.503 And okay, so actually, as I talk it through, maybe it's not the best example. 00:08:39.403 --> 00:08:46.951 Well, okay, hang on. So I'm back on my train of thought. You're going to transport or teleport BF Skinner's concepts of operant conditioning and behaviorism 00:08:46.951 --> 00:08:47.676 to this other pod. 00:08:48.511 --> 00:08:53.151 And if you are listening from beyond the grave, BF Skinner, I bet you have never seen your 00:08:53.339 --> 00:08:54.743 work described in this way, but I digress. 00:08:55.697 --> 00:09:00.231 So if you then tell a narcissist that there is, I don't know, a mirror in the pod as well 00:09:00.231 --> 00:09:03.961 maybe a microphone and there's a crowd of people who want to hear them tell their high school 00:09:04.231 --> 00:09:09.431 baseball stories, then they may go into that pod. And so now they're in that pod with these 00:09:09.431 --> 00:09:15.031 concepts of behaviorism and operant conditioning. And so then when the teleportation happens, 00:09:15.031 --> 00:09:20.631 now you have these solid psychological principles interwoven in with narcissism. And for the record, 00:09:20.631 --> 00:09:25.831 there wasn't actually a mirror or a microphone, so this new creature is not going to reflect light 00:09:25.831 --> 00:09:31.950 or have a voice that projects similar to the Mr. Microphone of my youth, but you put them 00:09:32.071 --> 00:09:36.271 through these filters of emotional immaturity and narcissism and I feel like you really 00:09:36.271 --> 00:09:38.620 do get intermittent reinforcement. 00:09:39.391 --> 00:09:42.815 So this is a powerful motivator, it's a manipulation tactic. 00:09:43.791 --> 00:09:46.911 So to illustrate the concept, Skinner then conducted studies with rats. 00:09:47.251 --> 00:09:50.584 So initially the rats were rewarded with food every time that they pressed the lever. 00:09:51.091 --> 00:09:53.114 So this was this continuous reinforcement. 00:09:54.111 --> 00:10:01.311 But over time, then the researchers changed the experiment. So they rewarded the rats with food in a very unpredictable pattern. 00:10:01.311 --> 00:10:05.611 Sometimes pressing the lever would result in a reward, and other times it would not. 00:10:05.611 --> 00:10:09.903 Sometimes they would press the lever and it would be even more food, and other times it would be nothing. 00:10:10.691 --> 00:10:16.592 So this random pattern, one might expect, sorry, I feel like I'm in my teaching class, 00:10:16.731 --> 00:10:17.348 what would you expect? 00:10:18.011 --> 00:10:22.065 But they were expecting that the rats would then give up pressing the lever. 00:10:23.172 --> 00:10:26.665 Instead, the opposite occurred, so the rats continued to press the lever obsessively, 00:10:27.191 --> 00:10:30.635 And they even neglected their own hygiene and their other needs. 00:10:31.419 --> 00:10:37.378 So, now I'm going to jump full into this article of intermittent reinforcement from this feeling is healing to act as the muse. 00:10:38.026 --> 00:10:43.365 But so this mirrors, and they don't have an author listed of this article, but it really is, it's brilliant. 00:10:44.130 --> 00:10:52.664 But this mirrors what happens in an abusive relationship. And it goes toward explaining why such a relationship is harder to leave than healthy relationships. 00:10:53.267 --> 00:11:00.307 Because we almost become addicted to trying to get the narcissist or the emotionally immature person to behave in a safe and sane way. 00:11:00.802 --> 00:11:05.141 So we're going back and pressing that lever like crazy, hoping to get the reward. 00:11:05.726 --> 00:11:11.263 And this phenomenon also explains why it can take longer to get over an abusive relationship once that relationship is ended. 00:11:11.839 --> 00:11:16.106 Because the relationship is by nature not a relationship, but an addiction. 00:11:16.862 --> 00:11:23.669 Which is so fitting as a person, myself, who has worked with a lot of people that are trying to overcome addictive behaviors, 00:11:23.669 --> 00:11:26.278 or turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. 00:11:27.152 --> 00:11:31.653 That pull of the addiction, one of the biggest components, 00:11:31.729 --> 00:11:33.809 so I work a lot with people who turn to pornography 00:11:33.809 --> 00:11:38.170 as an unhealthy coping mechanism, because there isn't by definition or by diagnosis code 00:11:38.249 --> 00:11:39.389 a pornography addiction. 00:11:39.389 --> 00:11:42.861 You can start looking at impulse control disorder or compulsive sexual behavior, 00:11:43.212 --> 00:11:46.425 but I like to look at it as turning to an unhealthy coping mechanism. 00:11:46.529 --> 00:11:52.109 And often the biggest triggers are boredom, or I call it crimes of opportunity, 00:11:52.109 --> 00:11:55.549 but that boredom one or that loneliness, and we've talked about Ross Rosenberg's concepts 00:11:55.549 --> 00:11:59.069 around pathological loneliness on the podcast many times. 00:11:59.069 --> 00:12:05.384 So when people are lonely, pathologically lonely, then they often turn to that narcissistic lover of choice, 00:12:05.869 --> 00:12:09.048 to try to get that dopamine reward. They go hit that lever hoping this time 00:12:09.109 --> 00:12:12.559 it's gonna dump a ton of rat food in their bowl. 00:12:13.333 --> 00:12:23.110 So intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful motivator and manipulation tactic. In an abusive relationship, the abuser will mix episodes of love in with the abuse. 00:12:23.551 --> 00:12:29.183 And at this point, the victim, this is why I say it's so important to raise your emotional baseline. That self-care is not selfish. 00:12:29.183 --> 00:12:39.161 Because the victim becomes so worn down and starved of affection that when they finally do receive this little scrap of love, then it can feel just heavenly. 00:12:39.251 --> 00:12:44.598 It can feel euphoric, it can give you, it's like that rush, that dopamine dump, it's like the high. 00:12:44.733 --> 00:12:48.568 So that feeling is literally created by the release of dopamine. 00:12:49.198 --> 00:12:55.401 So then over time, the victim associates the abuser with the feeling of relief from their pain. 00:12:56.238 --> 00:12:58.606 So even though the abuser caused the pain in the first place. 00:12:58.894 --> 00:13:03.521 So we desperately hang on to this hope of the narcissist's promise that they are reformed. 00:13:04.070 --> 00:13:06.978 That they get it now. Because that does, that alleviates our discomfort. 00:13:07.635 --> 00:13:10.444 And they actually get the validation, the emotionally immature does. 00:13:11.023 --> 00:13:15.017 And then we might even get that little hit of dopamine and now we're associating them, 00:13:15.170 --> 00:13:19.770 the person that does the very abuse, with actually the healing as well. 00:13:20.319 --> 00:13:22.210 And this causes the trauma bond. 00:13:23.023 --> 00:13:26.023 And so it is a very strong sense of bonding with the abuser. 00:13:26.023 --> 00:13:29.483 And this happens because of the abuse, rather than in spite of it. 00:13:30.249 --> 00:13:34.660 So by leaving such a relationship, the physical body actually has to go through withdrawal. 00:13:35.083 --> 00:13:37.903 Just as a drug addict does when they come off of drugs. 00:13:37.903 --> 00:13:41.978 So hopefully by understanding what's going on with this intermittent reinforcement, 00:13:42.103 --> 00:13:46.503 then it can help you make sense the feelings that you're feeling. 00:13:45.336 --> 00:13:51.035 And I think that one of the most important things as somebody who works with people who are trying to overcome addictive behaviors, 00:13:51.629 --> 00:13:53.888 that I think there's a lot of bad data out there as well. 00:13:54.186 --> 00:13:58.759 Because we have to accept the fact that we want to turn to that drug of choice. 00:13:59.272 --> 00:14:04.186 We don't beat ourselves up, we don't say what's wrong with me, and we don't tell ourselves don't think about it. 00:14:04.574 --> 00:14:08.868 Because for the nine millionth time, we'll go through this exercise that I love. 00:14:09.534 --> 00:14:16.349 Don't think about a, I don't know, a yellow tricycle. Don't think about a fish on top of the yellow tricycle. 00:14:16.846 --> 00:14:20.446 I'll give you a little bit of latitude there. If he's laying on flopping around on the seat 00:14:20.446 --> 00:14:23.173 or if he actually has feet and he's driving, actually have him have feet 00:14:23.326 --> 00:14:26.153 and his arms are on the handlebars of the tricycle 00:14:26.286 --> 00:14:31.486 and he's wearing a, I don't know, a red, white and blue hat and there are streamers coming around from the handlebars. 00:14:31.486 --> 00:14:35.182 Don't think about it, of the tricycle and they are just flowing in the wind. 00:14:35.406 --> 00:14:37.045 So whatever you do, do not think about those things. 00:14:37.426 --> 00:14:41.474 Just as you can tell yourself, don't think about the narcissist or the emotionally immature. 00:14:41.606 --> 00:14:43.878 I have to accept the fact that I am thinking about that. 00:14:44.686 --> 00:14:48.206 I have to accept the fact that I am a human being who has thoughts, feelings, and emotions, 00:14:48.206 --> 00:14:50.990 and so check that out, that's what I'm thinking about. That's interesting. 00:14:51.431 --> 00:14:55.146 And now I have to invite those feelings to come along with me while I take action 00:14:55.146 --> 00:14:58.696 on things that matter, while I do. And if your brain says do what? 00:14:59.446 --> 00:15:03.126 Anything, anything to begin with, but if you can find things that actually matter to you 00:15:03.126 --> 00:15:06.357 that are of value, then you're gonna be more engaged in doing those things. 00:15:07.239 --> 00:15:12.486 But if you sit there and think and beat yourself up and ruminate and worry and try to solve and figure out 00:15:12.486 --> 00:15:17.526 and look for certainty, then that's only gonna cause this feeling to feel worse. 00:15:17.526 --> 00:15:18.699 And then what do you wanna do? 00:15:19.006 --> 00:15:23.200 You wanna get that dopamine dump, that hit from the narcissist. 00:15:24.262 --> 00:15:28.432 So, in the article, the author goes back to saying intermittent reinforcement is a serious 00:15:28.432 --> 00:15:36.272 threat to your health and well-being. Because as you saw in the Skinner example, it led to the rats completely neglecting their 00:15:36.272 --> 00:15:37.190 own self-care. 00:15:37.892 --> 00:15:41.272 So these patterns will leave you feeling confused, unable to make sense of anything because the 00:15:41.272 --> 00:15:42.762 behavior does not make sense. 00:15:43.132 --> 00:15:46.228 This is where we talk about trying to make sense of the nonsense, it's illogical. 00:15:47.112 --> 00:15:50.972 And intermittent reinforcement also explains why no contact becomes very important when, 00:15:51.632 --> 00:15:52.998 it is possible to do so. 00:15:53.172 --> 00:15:59.352 But when it is not, it's as if the heroin addict has to go to the methadone clinic to have the come down 00:15:59.352 --> 00:16:00.262 or a step down drug. 00:16:00.832 --> 00:16:03.863 For the narcissist, the relationship is never really over from their perspective, 00:16:04.552 --> 00:16:08.742 because they're gonna keep coming back to you as long as they need their drug, the narcissistic supply. 00:16:09.512 --> 00:16:13.952 And I love that they give this example. A behavior like checking emails is another example 00:16:13.952 --> 00:16:17.943 of intermittent reinforcement or checking your phone, because we're rewarded with an email, 00:16:18.438 --> 00:16:20.851 at inconsistent and unpredictable intervals. 00:16:21.432 --> 00:16:26.192 So the occasion when we receive the reward, then that'll make up for the times we check the email 00:16:26.192 --> 00:16:27.053 and there's no reward. 00:16:27.512 --> 00:16:31.599 Or we pick up our phone and there isn't a notification or anything that we need to do. 00:16:32.452 --> 00:16:35.434 They say there's a lot of other examples of intermittent reinforcement such as gambling, 00:16:35.572 --> 00:16:39.215 slot machines, it also explains why if you give into a nagging child one time, 00:16:39.332 --> 00:16:42.892 then the child will continue to nag and push your boundaries because they're gonna learn that 00:16:42.892 --> 00:16:45.688 after a certain amount of time, that they will get what they want. 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:50.929 So how do you know when you are being subjected to intermittent reinforcement? 00:16:51.683 --> 00:16:56.031 They have a list in the article you experience feelings of confusion. What is going on? You find, 00:16:56.769 --> 00:17:01.089 yourself obsessing over what the other person meant, what was intended, what the other person's 00:17:01.089 --> 00:17:05.649 thinking. You find yourself trying to work out what you could have done to make the situation 00:17:05.649 --> 00:17:09.969 turn out differently. Again, my fifth rule of interacting with a narcissist or emotionally 00:17:09.969 --> 00:17:14.609 immature person is there's nothing that you will ever do to cause them to have the aha moment or 00:17:14.609 --> 00:17:19.409 or the epiphany, it has to come from them. Or you blame yourself. You feel like you have to take 00:17:19.409 --> 00:17:22.769 responsibility for what went wrong in the relationship and for your partner's actions. 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:25.910 And I maintain that this is, I would love for us all to take a look at, 00:17:26.324 --> 00:17:29.649 what do you do with your discomfort? If you feel uncomfortable or you feel bad, 00:17:29.649 --> 00:17:34.209 what do you do with that? It's okay to sit with it. It's okay to talk to a trusted person about 00:17:34.381 --> 00:17:38.849 it. It's really good to journal or write it down or even record it into a microphone or onto your 00:17:38.849 --> 00:17:44.809 phone you can delete it that's fine but it's what you do with that discomfort. 00:17:45.571 --> 00:17:48.969 Because if you want to get rid of the discomfort oftentimes what people do is 00:17:49.181 --> 00:17:52.649 take take the blame okay it's my bad that makes me feel a little bit better 00:17:52.953 --> 00:17:56.409 or they hand that power over to somebody else this is why I have a bit of a 00:17:56.617 --> 00:18:01.249 problem at times with things like the concepts around confession because I can 00:18:01.249 --> 00:18:03.769 appreciate it if somebody is looking for accountability in order to help them 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:07.086 grow but if somebody just feels like okay I need to confess this to whether, 00:18:07.569 --> 00:18:12.191 it's a spouse, whether it's a friend, whether it's a priest, whether it's a bishop, a rabbi, you name it, 00:18:12.677 --> 00:18:18.049 and they say, forgive me, I have sinned, and then that alleviates their discomfort, and then if the 00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:24.849 person says, I forgive you, whoo, okay, I'm good. But then the person, at times, the people I often 00:18:24.849 --> 00:18:29.489 work with, then they just go and do, and their thought is, I feel good, I don't need to work 00:18:29.489 --> 00:18:34.049 on myself anymore. I feel really good. I've been forgiven. 00:18:33.157 --> 00:18:38.367 When those waters are calm, that's the time to start to learn how to deal with your emotions, 00:18:38.367 --> 00:18:42.607 how to look for things that matter to you. Because if you just hand that power over to 00:18:42.607 --> 00:18:46.207 somebody else and they tell you, you are good, yeah, it feels better in the moment, 00:18:46.381 --> 00:18:49.247 but are you doing anything to grow or are you just alleviating that discomfort? 00:18:49.991 --> 00:18:55.247 And heaven forbid that person says, oh man, you are bad. Because now I just handed that power 00:18:55.247 --> 00:18:58.759 over to somebody who said, hey, you're a piece of garbage and I want you to go think about it, 00:18:58.921 --> 00:19:05.247 which never leads to positive outcomes in my opinion. So that was coming off of you blaming 00:19:05.247 --> 00:19:08.447 yourself. The other ways to know when you're being subjected to intermittent reinforcement, 00:19:08.447 --> 00:19:13.407 you feel distressed and you feel in pain. You end up second guessing yourself. You rationalize and 00:19:13.407 --> 00:19:18.927 you talk yourself out of your gut instincts. You find yourself going back to the scene of the abuse, 00:19:19.168 --> 00:19:23.007 the scene of the crime. I want to tell a quick story. I wasn't sure where I was going to share 00:19:23.007 --> 00:19:26.127 this or if I was going to share this, but talking about trusting your gut instincts, this is going 00:19:26.127 --> 00:19:33.087 going to be full of healthy ego, egotistical talk, and then I'm the floor will be open for criticism, bring it on. 00:19:33.087 --> 00:19:36.167 I will take it. I want to, I want to grow. 00:19:36.207 --> 00:19:39.927 I want to be better. I will self-confront, but let me talk to you through a story. 00:19:39.927 --> 00:19:40.887 Take you on a train of thought. 00:19:41.493 --> 00:19:48.847 Friday night, I was asked to go speak to a group of youth and there's some fun ADD concepts here as well. 00:19:49.280 --> 00:19:54.327 My associate intern coworker, Nate Christensen, who's been on the podcast was going to go with me. 00:19:54.327 --> 00:19:56.329 He was, we were joking, he was gonna be the opening act. 00:19:56.851 --> 00:20:00.299 It was about a hundred or so youth, maybe more. And we were gonna talk about mental health. 00:20:00.527 --> 00:20:04.206 And I assumed it was gonna be at a big, large church building in the area. 00:20:04.854 --> 00:20:08.689 And instead we got the directions and it was about an hour and 45 minutes outside of town, 00:20:09.127 --> 00:20:13.172 out in the middle of the woods, no cell service, had to use bug spray, all of it. 00:20:13.892 --> 00:20:23.543 So, we head out there and we have an amazing talk on the way. We're talking about all kinds of things, mental health and cases and podcast ideas and just really enjoying the conversation. 00:20:23.894 --> 00:20:33.742 And we get there and I think Nate does a phenomenal job. He really does. There was a stage, he did have a microphone and there was a bonfire and the smoke just blew right into the stage the entire time. 00:20:33.742 --> 00:20:39.477 And like a trooper, he stood there in the face of the smoke and just talked through, gave hilarious examples. I think the kids loved him. 00:20:39.742 --> 00:20:43.204 Loved him. One of the things I thought was really funny was when they were asking how 00:20:43.542 --> 00:20:47.342 they announced Nate, I said, just announced that you may have seen him in his Netflix 00:20:47.342 --> 00:20:51.414 special. And I was offering the kid five bucks to make that intro. He did it for free. But, 00:20:51.942 --> 00:20:56.142 then Nate got up and said, I don't have a Netflix special, but I love this concept called 00:20:56.142 --> 00:21:00.262 anchoring, where I guarantee there were people that left there looking for Nate Christensen 00:21:00.262 --> 00:21:04.502 and his Netflix special on the internet. But then Nate introduced me and I got up there 00:21:04.502 --> 00:21:10.422 and I just had such a fun time and just talked about mental health. We left and we were driving 00:21:10.633 --> 00:21:14.502 back home. Now we've got this, it's about a four mile really windy road to get out to 00:21:14.502 --> 00:21:21.542 a 12 mile kind of windy road to get to a 40 mile just loosely winding freeway or interstate 00:21:21.542 --> 00:21:26.582 or I don't know the back road kind of vibe back into a main town. So as we leave the 00:21:26.582 --> 00:21:30.862 camp right away, there's something out of my peripheral to the right and I think it's 00:21:30.862 --> 00:21:36.782 deer running out to the car. And so I put the brakes on a little bit. I noticed it's a ginormous 00:21:36.782 --> 00:21:41.466 German Shepherd at this point now. I've confabulated this fish tail that he was as big as our car. 00:21:42.304 --> 00:21:46.713 I see him, oh, he's a dog, and I just, I give the car a little bit of gas, pull up a little bit, 00:21:46.713 --> 00:21:51.193 we start chuckling. And then I look and it's like a scene from Jurassic Park and the T-Rex is coming 00:21:51.193 --> 00:21:55.312 in and objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. So I gun it, I get out of there. 00:21:55.771 --> 00:22:02.073 But then here's where my true confessions. So I might as well have grabbed a ponytail, 00:22:02.073 --> 00:22:06.700 strapped it on, asked if I could put a yoga mat on my driver's seat. And I just said to Nate, 00:22:06.790 --> 00:22:11.993 hey, this is what's really interesting, is that I've been doing mindfulness exercises for a very 00:22:11.993 --> 00:22:15.993 long time, years now, and I've had a series of things that have happened. I believe I shared 00:22:15.993 --> 00:22:22.393 a couple of them on a recent podcast where I got pulled over by the cops because I didn't want my 00:22:22.393 --> 00:22:27.033 yogurt to melt. I didn't realize there was a DUI stop. I thought it was just some road work, so I 00:22:27.033 --> 00:22:31.673 flipped a U-turn where I wasn't supposed to. And a cop came and he was wonderful and kind, and I said 00:22:31.673 --> 00:22:36.713 I took ownership and accountability of what I did, and if I needed to pay a ticket, then no problem, 00:22:36.911 --> 00:22:41.433 but let's get home and let's eat this yogurt. And I didn't get rattled. I noticed all of my 00:22:41.433 --> 00:22:43.033 my thoughts and feelings and it was wonderful. 00:22:43.033 --> 00:22:48.056 And I almost missed a connecting flight due to a flight delay on a speaking gig in Salt Lake. 00:22:48.153 --> 00:22:52.473 And there too, it was really interesting because people were losing their minds on the airplane 00:22:52.473 --> 00:22:53.944 and I thought, oh, this is interesting. 00:22:54.073 --> 00:22:57.211 You know, what happens, happens and I'm here and I'm being and doing. 00:22:57.613 --> 00:23:00.913 So I'm telling Nate this and I'm telling him that as this dog ran out, I thought, 00:23:00.913 --> 00:23:02.622 oh, that's interesting, the dog ran out. 00:23:03.093 --> 00:23:07.186 But right as if I just cue the cue from the universe, from heaven, 00:23:07.313 --> 00:23:12.433 there's a car pulled over to my left And there's a woman that is flagging me down, 00:23:12.433 --> 00:23:14.145 waving her hands wildly. 00:23:14.313 --> 00:23:19.951 And we slow down and all of a sudden, I just, you know, the spidey sense kicks in. 00:23:20.491 --> 00:23:24.992 And I notice she looks a bit disheveled and she asked if I have some water. 00:23:25.173 --> 00:23:27.684 And I said, I do, do you need it for your car or for you? 00:23:28.193 --> 00:23:29.386 And she said, both. 00:23:30.193 --> 00:23:35.773 And so, and I realize now taking this in, you know, the hood was not up for the universal sign of, 00:23:35.773 --> 00:23:36.713 hey, I'm broken down. 00:23:37.133 --> 00:23:40.693 There wasn't steaming coming from the car. She looked disheveled and bless her heart, 00:23:40.693 --> 00:23:44.644 I know she's probably been through a lot in her life, but she had some track marks on her arm 00:23:44.753 --> 00:23:46.904 from you could tell maybe from some drug use. 00:23:47.613 --> 00:23:54.223 But I just felt, I felt off, I felt scared, I felt nervous. And so I just said, she said, can you get out of the car? 00:23:54.646 --> 00:23:58.633 And I just said, hey, let me, and I know I don't know much about cars anyway, 00:23:58.633 --> 00:24:03.593 I thought about do we drive this person into the next town? But I just said, hey, let me just have somebody come get you, 00:24:03.593 --> 00:24:05.035 let me send for some help. 00:24:05.233 --> 00:24:09.437 And she got a little bit angry and started yelling and said, whatever, don't send the cops. 00:24:09.993 --> 00:24:10.832 And then we pulled away. 00:24:12.317 --> 00:24:16.807 It really, after I just talked about being so mindful, then I realized, oh, I was freaking out. 00:24:16.972 --> 00:24:21.207 That really scared me. And so there goes all of my mindfulness training. But then I also thought, 00:24:21.207 --> 00:24:27.127 though, no, it was me trusting my gut. And what I think is ironic is people can make the observation 00:24:27.127 --> 00:24:31.847 and judgment, the concept out of Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication and say 00:24:31.847 --> 00:24:36.407 that they just observed that I left some Christian camp and this was literally the parable of the 00:24:36.407 --> 00:24:38.946 of the good Samaritan and I just walked on by. 00:24:39.247 --> 00:24:43.312 And I will take that criticism, because I often say to the people that have been 00:24:43.654 --> 00:24:46.767 in emotionally immature or abusive or narcissistic relationships, 00:24:46.767 --> 00:24:51.054 or if they grew up in that way in their home as a kid, that oftentimes they don't trust their gut. 00:24:51.594 --> 00:24:57.327 And so I would rather lead with that trusting of my gut. And we talk again about this intermittent reinforcement 00:24:57.327 --> 00:25:01.847 if that was the way that your relationship pattern maybe was from your childhood, 00:25:01.847 --> 00:25:04.954 or maybe it's from your emotionally immature narcissistic relationship, 00:25:05.368 --> 00:25:09.122 you end up second guessing yourself, you rationalize and you talk yourself out of your gut instincts. 00:25:09.607 --> 00:25:15.108 So I feel good about the fact that we left, I really do. But then if everything is an opportunity 00:25:15.247 --> 00:25:19.807 to sit with that discomfort and to self-confront because I wanna be a better human being, 00:25:19.807 --> 00:25:22.499 I want to be a better person in general, 00:25:23.007 --> 00:25:28.407 not so that other people will say well done or good job, but because that's what I feel like this human 00:25:28.407 --> 00:25:32.483 or mortal existence is about, is becoming and being and doing better, 00:25:33.087 --> 00:25:37.207 or accepting who I am and then so that then I can move forward 00:25:37.207 --> 00:25:38.567 and hopefully let my light so shine 00:25:38.567 --> 00:25:40.855 that I can lift others around me and all those things. 00:25:41.567 --> 00:25:47.435 But the thing that I did not do was I did not stop at the next town and send somebody to help. 00:25:47.767 --> 00:25:50.604 And I processed this with a couple of clients who were talking about trusting your gut. 00:25:51.047 --> 00:25:54.736 And it's funny, I deal with so many emotionally or pathologically kind people, 00:25:55.207 --> 00:25:56.687 that they were saying, well, right, but you knew. 00:25:56.687 --> 00:25:59.390 You knew that she really didn't need help. And I said, I appreciate that, 00:25:59.927 --> 00:26:06.070 but for me and my journey of awakening, of enlightenment, of trying to get that ponytail and that yoga mat, 00:26:06.667 --> 00:26:11.057 is if I say to somebody that I'm gonna send somebody back, even if they're saying don't send the cops, 00:26:11.387 --> 00:26:14.343 if they truly are broken down, then I should've sent somebody back. 00:26:15.063 --> 00:26:19.313 So, I would imagine that person eventually got help because there were other people that 00:26:19.313 --> 00:26:23.033 were leaving the camp later that night, some other leaders, and then the next day there 00:26:23.291 --> 00:26:24.651 were a lot of people leaving. 00:26:25.389 --> 00:26:30.953 But so I hope that person found their way. But back to that, rationalize or talk yourself out of things or trust your gut instincts 00:26:30.953 --> 00:26:36.273 because that can be one of the consequences of growing up with intermittent reinforcement 00:26:36.273 --> 00:26:38.559 because you really will question yourself and your gut. 00:26:39.753 --> 00:26:42.682 So back to the article, will a partner who's treating me in this way ever change? 00:26:43.293 --> 00:26:48.013 They say that a person who has a personality disorder such as narcissistic or antisocial personality disorder 00:26:48.013 --> 00:26:51.739 is aware that they are, is aware that they're manipulating their partners in this way. 00:26:52.351 --> 00:26:54.813 And they're unlikely to ever change as this behavior rewards them. 00:26:54.813 --> 00:26:57.173 And I do find that that's interesting when they say that they are aware 00:26:57.173 --> 00:26:58.823 that they're manipulating their partners in this way. 00:26:59.246 --> 00:27:04.603 And this is where I do really question that from the work that I've done over a very long period of time. 00:27:05.098 --> 00:27:08.249 And we look at the concepts of implicit memory or what it feels like to be them 00:27:08.493 --> 00:27:10.985 or what it feels like to be you or what it feels like to be me 00:27:11.113 --> 00:27:14.037 that are all based on the gradual residue of lived experience. 00:27:14.493 --> 00:27:19.285 So if the narcissist or the emotionally immature person has just been being them and doing them, 00:27:19.753 --> 00:27:23.832 and just reacting and thinking and being manipulative and not taking ownership, 00:27:23.953 --> 00:27:26.253 that gaslighting comes as a childhood defense mechanism. 00:27:26.721 --> 00:27:29.773 The concepts around confabulation, they're creating a new narrative in real time 00:27:29.773 --> 00:27:33.893 because it can't be that they're a bad person or that they did anything wrong 00:27:33.893 --> 00:27:35.913 or that they didn't take ownership of things. 00:27:35.913 --> 00:27:42.997 It has to be someone else's fault or you don't understand. whatever, whichever one that you ascribe to or buy into, 00:27:43.473 --> 00:27:47.589 whether they are aware or that it's just part of that implicit memory or they're just being them, 00:27:48.353 --> 00:27:52.351 the key point here is that talking about that person with the personality disorder, 00:27:52.793 --> 00:27:56.744 that they're unlikely to change as this behavior rewards them 00:27:57.033 --> 00:27:59.436 because that behavior puts them in the one-up position. 00:27:59.673 --> 00:28:04.864 That behavior gets them their narcissistic supply. It gets rid of their discomfort. 00:28:05.653 --> 00:28:09.815 The author says there are other non-personality disordered people who have insecure attachments. 00:28:10.113 --> 00:28:16.603 So I love that. For example, someone with an avoidant attachment style may pull away due to an underlying fear of intimacy. 00:28:16.953 --> 00:28:21.761 This type of person would need to be willing to work with their partner to form more consistent patterns. 00:28:21.993 --> 00:28:27.073 They would need to process the underlying feelings and beliefs that come up when they feel like pulling away. 00:28:27.073 --> 00:28:28.207 So how do you take back your power? 00:28:28.353 --> 00:28:34.103 Realize that if the person is carrying out this behavior on purpose, that they aren't going to be any different, 00:28:34.233 --> 00:28:36.393 and the relationship will be this way for as long as it lasts. 00:28:36.393 --> 00:28:40.853 So then I would add then my two cents in there that then whether it is on purpose 00:28:40.853 --> 00:28:42.358 or whether it is what they do, 00:28:42.973 --> 00:28:47.616 that there isn't gonna be any different behavior and the relationship will continue the way it lasts 00:28:47.933 --> 00:28:54.034 if you continue to just acquiesce and go along with this intermittent reinforcement. 00:28:54.173 --> 00:28:56.813 If you're on the receiving end of intermittent reinforcement, 00:28:56.813 --> 00:29:00.913 it's important to set clear boundaries, but then to stick to them and know again that a boundary 00:29:00.913 --> 00:29:02.568 is a challenge to the narcissist. 00:29:02.713 --> 00:29:07.233 The more consistent and firm that you are with your boundaries, the less power 00:29:07.484 --> 00:29:08.798 that that person will have to manipulate you. 00:29:09.527 --> 00:29:16.288 And after stating those boundaries, you stick to them. Don't keep repeating them. Don't rub the line in the sand, back up on your boundary. 00:29:16.441 --> 00:29:21.320 Try to explain, even if the other person isn't listening, I'm expressing and holding my boundary. 00:29:21.914 --> 00:29:24.876 Honor your feelings as they come up. If something doesn't feel right, pay attention. 00:29:25.407 --> 00:29:30.485 I love that they say in this article, the body doesn't lie. We know Bessel van der Kolk says the body keeps the score. 00:29:31.088 --> 00:29:37.929 Our instincts are built on a lifetime of awareness from the vault of our implicit memory, our subconscious, or what it feels like to be us. 00:29:38.470 --> 00:29:44.060 And this is so much more powerful than what they say our limited logical and rational minds could ever fathom. 00:29:44.762 --> 00:29:49.938 So intermittent reinforcement can only work if the person is offering or withholding something that you want or need. 00:29:50.377 --> 00:29:57.537 This is where it is. It is time for your personal journey of worthiness, that you are of worth, you are enough. 00:29:57.537 --> 00:30:06.467 And if you can step into that calm, confident energy, that healthy ego based off of the things that you like to do and be and feel and say, 00:30:06.593 --> 00:30:10.217 then you will not need that intermittent reinforcement. 00:30:10.217 --> 00:30:13.317 As a matter of fact, it will be something you detest, that you abhor. 00:30:14.064 --> 00:30:18.620 Realizing that you have a sense of security then becomes the only way to really have a relationship with somebody. 00:30:19.223 --> 00:30:22.377 And I love how they say, do not settle for anything less. 00:30:23.112 --> 00:30:28.017 So I want to throw a couple of ideas out. I would like to create a little bit of content, 00:30:28.504 --> 00:30:35.857 or a good old intellectual property around the concepts of intermittent reinforcement. So I've come up with the acronym RIDE. 00:30:36.255 --> 00:30:43.857 Reinforcement intermittently delivers emotion, R.I.D.E. Because I feel like this term, it captures the ups and downs that are experienced by the victim 00:30:44.069 --> 00:30:46.857 in a relationship with a narcissist or an emotionally immature person. 00:30:46.857 --> 00:30:48.857 It is an emotional rollercoaster. 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:54.701 It's an emotional rollercoaster ride. So that, I feel like that lends itself to this acronym of R.I.D.E. 00:30:54.857 --> 00:30:57.635 So reinforcement intermittently delivers emotion. 00:30:57.857 --> 00:31:00.372 Thought of an example, I should have put it in the form of a haiku. 00:31:01.281 --> 00:31:06.152 But consider the case of a Mark and a Lisa. Mark never knows what he's going to get when he walks in the door after work. 00:31:06.467 --> 00:31:10.931 Some days Lisa greets him with a smile, a warm dinner, an affectionate conversation, a hug and a kiss. 00:31:10.931 --> 00:31:12.912 Those are the days that Mark lives for. 00:31:13.551 --> 00:31:20.168 But without warning, the dynamic shifts. Sometimes he's met with cold indifference or harsh criticism, complete silence or withdrawal. 00:31:20.825 --> 00:31:24.408 And that, it's a wild ride. It's an emotional roller coaster. 00:31:24.885 --> 00:31:27.964 Again, reinforcement intermittently delivers emotion. 00:31:28.099 --> 00:31:34.320 So, in this scenario, the reinforcement is Lisa's positive attention, her affection, however, it is delivered intermittently. 00:31:35.094 --> 00:31:41.657 So, on the days when Mark is greeted warmly, he experiences a surge of positive emotion, a dopamine dump. 00:31:42.413 --> 00:31:43.988 But those highs, they're unpredictable. 00:31:44.375 --> 00:31:49.031 And so those keep him emotionally invested in the relationship and constantly seeking that affection, 00:31:49.031 --> 00:31:59.031 despite the distressing lows that he feels when she withholds that attention or that affection or even just conversation. 00:31:59.391 --> 00:32:04.693 And those fluctuating emotions that he's experiencing, those are like the ups and downs of a roller coaster ride. 00:32:05.188 --> 00:32:12.309 So, hence the term, the emotional roller coaster or ride. That reinforcement intermittently delivers emotion. 00:32:13.552 --> 00:32:20.753 I had a letter that came in that really got me thinking about this and then there was this, again, this article was posted in the Facebook group. 00:32:21.031 --> 00:32:26.031 So, speaking of ride, I think that we're at the end of today's ride. 00:32:26.398 --> 00:32:29.792 So I want to thank you all for taking the time to join me on Waking Up to Narcissism. 00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:38.031 And if I can just point you, and I may post this as a bonus episode here on the Waking Up to Narcissism, but I would highly encourage you to go over to the virtual couch. 00:32:38.031 --> 00:32:41.871 Couch and I shared just a it's probably one of the most powerful episodes that I 00:32:41.871 --> 00:32:45.551 feel like I've done it was an interview with Duff and Kiera Dyer and it was 00:32:45.551 --> 00:32:51.991 about about finding their daughter Emma unfortunately unresponsive and she she 00:32:51.991 --> 00:32:58.391 passed away but the the story that they tell that that podcast I think I've 00:32:58.391 --> 00:33:01.191 received more feedback from that one than anything I think I have in the last 00:33:01.191 --> 00:33:04.911 seven years so I just really feel like that would be something I would highly 00:33:04.911 --> 00:33:08.195 recommend and I'll put a link directly to that in the show notes today but I, 00:33:08.691 --> 00:33:17.751 would highly encourage you to go check that out and again I appreciate the support. Please send your questions, your comments. I do, I read them all. So many 00:33:17.751 --> 00:33:22.031 times I don't get a chance to respond but my my wonderful assistant Naomi does 00:33:22.031 --> 00:33:25.071 get back to people. If you're looking to get in a woman's group or men's group 00:33:25.071 --> 00:33:28.951 let me know. I want your poetry, I want your haikus, I want your stories, I want 00:33:28.951 --> 00:33:32.511 your examples because I do see you and I know that this is a journey and I 00:33:32.627 --> 00:33:33.348 I appreciate where you're at. 00:33:33.731 --> 00:33:36.552 And I will see you next week on Waking Up The Night. 00:33:36.560 --> 00:33:57.995 Music.