Welcome to the Vet podcast,
by the Vet guru, Brendan and Mark.
Get ready for the latest veterinary news, info
and entertainment. Don't forget to visit us at
the vet website. Vet dot com. Now. Sit
back.
Relax. It's over to the Vector,
Brandon and Mark.
Welcome
to our subscribers and new listeners, Brendan here
with Mark yvette guru dot com.
The place to go at guru
and
Look at our website, go through our previous
episodes. Say hello to our sponsors,
become a subscriber. How are you, Mark? I'm
great, Britain, really, really. Good. I've got a
bit of a fright there because
normally
our
outstanding podcast software lets me listen to the
intro, but
it was all bit
silent at my end. And then all of
a sudden, I got your beautiful
voice.
Well,
introduce
Production will fix it, Mark. I heard a
always does. I heard Dean intro. So hopefully,
when we're we try and stitch it all
together. It will work.
The magic will happen.
Yes. That's right. And
I must met the excellent software, we should
give them a plug mark even though we
pay for
a subscription and
That's why we're always asking for donations to
help their production costs. But Zen Caster
is the the software that we use for
the actual accordion this a market and
We've been using for over 350
podcasts and
And by large, it is not let us
down has it... It has been
excellent.
I cannot
You know what's gonna happen now.
Episode. It's gonna die at some stage we've
Monster sales Mark, But, yes, it has been
excellent Well, you know
Well, I was right. We did... I did
want ourselves.
So about the kiss of death. Yes. I
don't know how much of that
we last I'll have to unfortunately go back
through our
I think recording in. I think we lost
about
45 seconds of 1... You've you probably said
the
funniest thing you've said for 350
or 60 episodes.
It looks like I'll be spending in tonight
going through the post production, Mark. But yes.
So
anything
of interest you need 12 was about Was
gonna tell you about...
You know how often head out and
get into the bush in 1 place or
another looking for
some bit of wildlife to point my camera
at I went up to a place near
home,
called Milton
recently.
And
went into,
wind into the bush there. It is a
conservation, but not national Park.
It's a bit of a a spot where
people go and ride their their motor across
bikes on the weekend, and
it's general use scrub sort of country, but
beautiful.
Anyway, the the the the j
position of it sort of
second class
utility to humans, and the fact that I
was able to find
swift pirates and regent honey in the same
tree.
Just
was... It struck me as a bit of
a paradox, brandon that
I can go to a place that's largely
discarded by humans.
An old mine
buffer zone. That's been
handed back to
the community
and
and yet.
Lovely flo out, the spotted gums they were
in flower and
the swift parrot, critically threatened
margaret parrot,
which
breeds into tasmania flies up the East Coast
was there in in small numbers. There they're
probably only about 600 of them left in
the wild, and I got to see about
30 of them,
and the region Honey of course, there's only
a a couple of hundred of those, maybe
even some people think of them as a
zombie species,
mig as well, traveling
across
Australia, but
not in any set pattern just just looking
for blossom, wherever the gum trees are flowering,
There's a chance you'll find 1 of the
200.
Honey it is, but to find them in
the same tree,
crack his sprint, and I was doing back
flips almost damage the camera.
You would have been
sq with delight.
Sq
exactly the word. Yes.
You would scared them off once you once
she noticed so were both there.
Good story, mark. Good story. I haven't got
anything anywhere there as
exciting that. I've just been plugging away as
usual, and I'm I need to get out
more. I know I know I say that
generically, but I need to get out more
with my camera as well.
And
to it. We we need to organize a
trip and do a little bit of
street photography in, in a, in a, city
in Europe, maybe.
Let's lock it in March maybe next year.
We need to we need to
yeah, have an adventure. My must Breaking you're
right. We record on the road. Now
we don't have any specific news topics mark,
so it's gonna be a particularly punchy
episode this 1, and
you have suggested a,
well, a bit of a variation on the
theme. We've spoken about a couple of these
bids before, but,
mark's top tips,
or mark's tip, Doesn't say top tips, and
I presume they are your top tip
concern in dog bite wounds in exotic.
So
Oh, look, I've not... I've seen a couple
of cases lately.
That we're a bit sort of not. You
know, I think all our listeners will be
aware of the general principles
involved in dog x, but there's some interesting
peculiar amongst the species and I thought we
would
We might well touch on some of those.
Excellent. So
knowing you It'll be more. I think you've
listed about 6 or 7 of them, but
often you have a bonus 1 at the
end there. So I'm looking forward to that,
Mark No pressure.
So
Tip number 1 mark,
about anatomy.
I do. I I
Brendan you will well know that anatomy is
my week point.
I went through University and
and paid
just barely enough attention to get a pass
in anatomy and have regretted it ever since
because
it's obviously a topic that's
useful in... Well, almost every aspect of veterinary
care.
Surgery during whatnot but in particular, I wanted
to highlight some unusual aspects of an anatomy
to me,
which when
crossed over with a dog attack can make
for a very different,
you know, different pathway, a different prognosis
for our patients.
So 1 of the examples I was thinking
of
was the
joint in the upper
beak of birds. And in particular, I've seen
a couple of cases lately where
the
damage occurred at the front
joint. In ducks.
Now, what I... I don't wanna speak for
bits here. But I tend to... Even though
I can see that that
up beak moves relative to the head.
I don't always because, you know, in most
species, we don't think of the upper jaw
is moving independent of the skull. Yes. Sort
of jump to my mind straight away, but
Certainly the front
joint, the joint at, which allows the upper
beak to move
it's a little bit of a weak spot
and when,
for example, a dog grabs the a duck
by the bee.
And
you know, bites and gives it a bit
of a shake. The that joint can be
the sight of the damage.
And that's important because very often there'll be
almost trivial damage
ton to the surface of the beak a
few scratches and whatnot on that ke
but
little tears allow
bacteria to get into the wound,
and then that track down into that joint
and
that can be a you know, very serious
and difficult to resolve
complication from these attacks. So
just being aware of stuff like that. I
have seen other cases, Brendan,
chickens,
that have been attacked by maybe a dog
or of Fox.
And when they I have a fairly horrendous
injuries about their head, but Many of these
birds will do well with
you know, when when you follow those general
principal
principles of d providing the
the dead tissue away keeping it clean and
and
and other things that we'll talk about in
a minute.
But
it there there are bones on the skull
and
particularly
around the jaw and the high apparatus
which are critical for swallowing and breathing,
and sometimes when those bones are damaged or
exposed even they might not be damaged, but
they might have muscle torn from them.
There needs to be special steps taken to
ensure that they,
that they don't become dried out and d
and, develop os my and then,
serious problems can develop with
you know, the whole
process of breathing and swallowing.
So there are
specific
atomic problems that we should know about in
species that make the risk of a bite
from a predatory animal much more significant.
You've switched off again Haven't you.
I switched off.
I switched off
physically and
moe tom.
So 1 of the best books...
Great points, there.
1 of the best books on anatomy every
exotic pets, and I know you like this
1 as Z Male book, Bookmark, Mark, on
clinical anatomy and physiology these sort of species.
Do you have that 1? It is a
wonderful textbook. Isn't it. So
I recommend. It's it's I recommend that too
or
everybody who has a interest in unusual and
exotic species mark.
I think it's the only really
1 of its kind anywhere it would... It
has comparative anatomy physiology
of of small mammals, reptile and birds. It
it's
fantastic in the diagrams and and kitchen.
So useful. Yes. So just to share that
to that, That's what made me think of
it, and that's why
hesitating for a official checking might be. Yes.
I was. I'd I'd logged on to to
get the actual name of it.
Correct clinical anatomy and
physiology of exotic species. Now point number 2,
Mark.
Well, 1 of the things that happens with
many of these species, Brendan is the old
preservation reflex that they can have
horrendous
injuries. And they you know, can be concealed
or whatever.
And
and you don't sort of realize how bad
they are,
about almost in invariably
these animals need that have been that have
had interaction with a canine.
They need aggressive multi mobile easier and in
my experience that makes a huge difference to
the pro
outcome.
And there are a a big cohort of
animals
that
of exotic animals that are going to
dive, they don't get adequate pain support, and
that will survive if they do get
appropriate anal or an anti inflammatory care.
And there is that cohort that aren't gonna
make it no matter what you do, but
there is,
a difference to be made with aggressive.
Multi model anal.
Yep. And I know we're bang on about
it all the time but it is extremely
important. Is it?
Now now next one's an interesting my
look 0.3.
And I mentioned it because I've been guilty
of it.
Myself that
you know,
we might have a particular species
that that we're going to,
you know, and what's a classic example, a
a reptile,
and we would often think about maybe using
something like
1 of the the
full
syphilis forums
as our first sort of
choice of drug,
particularly 1 that has action against gram negatives.
But this situation is 1 where
we're not... We we're not treating
species of animal
with its likely pathogens. So we're treating an
animal that's been attacked by dog and it
has organisms from the dog's mouth.
And so you want to line up your
antibiotic therapy
to treat the bugs that are common in
a dog's mouth. And so
the potent mo
and mat are, sort of the the drugs
that you always want to use and use
them at dose rate that's appropriate for the
species that you're treating at course. But Yes.
You're treating the the bugs in a dog's
mouth that get into those wounds,
and that's always an important thing to look
at when you're prescribing antibiotics for these
animals have have have had a a run
with a dog. Yes.
Now and
Yeah. You're sort
touched on for a little bit, but yes.
I'm gonna I'm gonna crystallize it just quickly.
Yes. I think that
my experience is that I'm never
sufficiently aggressive with my department. I tend to
be a little bit
gentle, and then it's something that I've got
go back in. And, of course,
the presence of nec acrylic tissue in the
wound makes it much more likely that bacteria
gonna build up to large numbers,
and they add to that,
pain load that the animal is going to
deal with. So
early
extensive,
assessment of nec tissue and having that nec
tissue aggressively deb divided,
is really important.
And I think
that extends
to 2 other quick points. The first 1
is don't stop, you know,
take all the nec tissue. Make sure you
protect the bone, cover it somehow either with
a flap of, viable tissue or
with 1 of the the, moist wound gels.
But if you've got dead bone,
that has to come out because it's not
going to,
revitalize.
And that might well be... I was talking
before about the high apparatus in in
in some chickens that I've seen in dog
attacks. Now if that's significantly damaged,
and you have nec
bone there, d bone, then that's,
an indication to,
think about quality of life issues and maybe
not go any further Brendan But to grade
the to bride the tissues,
particularly those acrylic tissues aggressively and early.
To bride the
deep thought out of it man.
Smelly stuff pride to pride.
I think we should make some bit guru
merchandise
pride in at somewhere. Yes.
I don't know how well it was self,
but
number 5 mark.
Look, I like...
I sort of I suppose I feel like
I'm repeating myself. This refers back a little
bit to the anatomy.
1 of the things that happens, particularly with
a lot of lizards, blue tongue lizards in,
1 of my
examples of this.
The structures of the skull of lizards mean
that if you have a fracture,
it's very difficult for that fracture, not to
extend to the cra vault.
So if you see a crack in the
roof of the mouth of a blue tongue
blizzard, it's very, very likely that
that that
the the way those bones
interact around the lizard head, if there's a
fracture, it's very likely that
that there's been damage to the bones of
the cra volt then the the there's gonna
be damage to the brain itself
and
oftentimes that allows
a slow
ingress of
bacteria to follow that wound up into the
cra. So
even relatively modest wounds need to be investigated
very aggressively in those lizards and quality of
life concerns come into play.
So knowing that that's for risk with those
guys might help you to make a decision
relatively early.
The other 1 I was talking about with
chickens and
and ducks is that those injuries around their
head, they may heal up very, very well,
But if there is some nerve or bone
damage to the
structures like the high or hypo bro apparatus,
then
appropriate swallowing and separating of the airways from
the esophagus might not occur. And aspiration pneumonia
can be a
slow and steady long term quell from some
of these injuries, and they might lead to,
you know, there might be a decision,
6 to 12 weeks after the recovery.
That suggests the, you know, the the aspiration
pneumonia is resulting from
some,
fault with the neural
organization of swallowing. So just being aware of
these times,
these species,
specific
potential problems.
They might help you make those quality of
life decisions a little bit earlier.
Yes. And unfortunately, a lot of the time
we are making that
decision to call it quits with the We've
mark so it's important that we
understand
by the anatomy and some of these
specifics of
these wounds mark in order to make that
session. What's number 6 of mark's top tips
concerning dog boat winston is exotic.
Well not my Tip number 6 is to
not forget the nervous system because I really
do my myself tend to focus on those
mu sc
injuries, the traumas to the skin, the lace,
the
traumatic, the physically
traumatic,
structural injuries, I suppose you would call them.
But obviously, the nerves pass through those tissues
and the structures of the eye and various
other nervous pathways
can be damaged by the trauma associated with
an attack from a dog.
And so... And they may be very, very
much more difficult as I alluded to with
the swallowing problem They may may be much
more difficult to resolve.
And I've made the mistake a couple of
times of not making sufficiently detailed op
examinations of these,
exotic patients not realizing that they have some
significant damage to their vision.
And of course, if they wildlife that will,
mitigate against a successful recovery.
So just making sure that you don't just
focus on the obvious lesions, the con conclusions,
and you always,
pay attention to the neurologic
structures and reflex as well in the period
immediately when after the animals
presented to you.
Well, said,
now,
number 7, the last 1 or maybe you
have a... You have that little bonus 1
at the end but what's the... What's the
last comment about?
I went in Exotic spark.
Well, I this one's a little bit of
a
promo extends beyond exotic, but
many animals will often have,
very
little in the way of out out
external signs. So many of the animals,
like possum or kangaroo
that would have an interaction with a dog
may actually present with very, very
modest or even difficult to find lesions on
the outside.
But just as a dog attack on another
dog will lead to significant
trauma to the underlying tissues. The same thing
can happen to
to
to our, wildlife
and and you know, rabbit, similarly the skin
slides over
the surface of the animal and there can
be
significant damage while the skin itself actually does
look too bad.
1 of the other consequences
of this sort of injury is that animals
like possum who don't do so well with
the bugs from, the males of cats and
dogs.
They they may, you know, that may may
as soon as you realize that there's these
tiny pun joins from 1 of the predatory
companion animals
it's probably a good time to pull up
dumps all altogether isn't it brendan.
Well,
not much happy thoughts. You've given me this
episode mark, but
some
excellent
excellent tips about
how to deal and or say I suppose
a better better phrase.
Dealing with these dog bike wins mark and
exotic.
Now,
what made you think of this topic?
Oh, it's just a couple of. Big. It's...
It it is... It's an interesting thing to
talk about how we come up with
Now,
hell is for. And and there's a couple
of that there's a little bit of a
pattern isn't it
Certainly,
we re every bit of communication we get
from our wonderful listeners and we'll often follow
ups zealous on topics that are sent to
us
if you have something you want Brendan and
I talk about,
get on to the the computer, send us
an email,
and we'd love to have a chat about
the things that really interest you and exotic
veterinary practice. Yeah. But of most often, I
would say it's cases that you've recently seen.
You you'll have AAI
don't know often it's a case that's a
little bit problematic
and so it sits in my mind for
a while. And by the time we get
a resolution. I'm thinking oh, This is something
I should talk to Brendan about.
So, yeah, just a couple of cases that
made me think.
You know what? We should have a talk
about these sorts of injuries.
Yes. And
you took the bait their mark. I was
what in you youtube mention
that we like listeners to send as a,
a potential topic or a
or or an item
that they've experienced that we... They want us
to chat about
or maybe you could even send in your
own top tips about 1 particular subject.
So feel free to do that. We'd love
getting email from our listeners is my fat
guru at g dot com.
Is the place to go the email to
the inter webs to send a to and
We love our listeners. Don't we mark?
Indeed, we do, we look forward to their
correspondence.
And mister Art is kicking us out. So
we better get out of here. We'll talk
to you all next week. Thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to the Vet podcast by
the Vet guru.
Don't forget to visit us at the website.
Vet guru dot com where you can subscribe,
view show notes, listen to previous episodes and
more. You can contact us via email and
vet guru at gmail dot com to ask
a question or just say hi. Thanks again,
and see you next time.