WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.357 This is the Concealed Carry Podcast, Season 14, Episode 7. 00:00:15.701 --> 00:00:16.659 And welcome to the Concealed Carry 00:00:16.659 --> 00:00:20.688 Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK. 00:00:21.692 --> 00:00:26.179 Today is Thursday, September 3rd, 2026, as of the recording of this live episode. 00:00:27.102 --> 00:00:31.819 And I am your host, Riley Bowman, joined today by Jacob Paulson, 00:00:31.819 --> 00:00:39.827 co-host, company president, founder, and man of many, many mysteries. 00:00:41.729 --> 00:00:43.699 I'm really not that mysterious at all, but thank you. 00:00:45.829 --> 00:00:49.289 Well, okay. I mean, we probably talked about this on the podcast many, 00:00:49.289 --> 00:00:53.389 many years ago, but you're the guy who cannot stand, 00:00:55.727 --> 00:00:58.101 moseying about your own home barefoot. 00:00:58.709 --> 00:01:01.429 No, no, no, no. 00:01:01.429 --> 00:01:02.430 See, man of mystery. 00:01:03.318 --> 00:01:12.009 No, I mean, I don't understand people who do. You must have calloused feet and I don't know. 00:01:12.669 --> 00:01:16.141 It's a painful thing. Being barefoot is painful unless you're on good carpet. 00:01:16.507 --> 00:01:20.495 On hardwood, tile, vinyl flooring, it just hurts to be barefoot. 00:01:21.656 --> 00:01:26.909 Even having socks, I will start to get pain after a while. Now maybe I'm just 00:01:27.349 --> 00:01:30.677 not indoctrinated or something, but I'm a guy who wears shoes. 00:01:31.083 --> 00:01:33.729 If there was carpet everywhere, that'd be fine. But unfortunately, 00:01:33.729 --> 00:01:37.782 in some places, it's gross to have carpet. Some people think carpet anywhere is gross. 00:01:38.096 --> 00:01:42.931 It's a constant battle in my household, the carpet versus hardwood question. 00:01:43.495 --> 00:01:48.159 And yeah, luckily here in my home office there is carpet, so being barefoot 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:49.143 here would be acceptable. 00:01:52.029 --> 00:01:56.514 You would not do well then if you were the father I saw at a recent outdoor 00:01:56.514 --> 00:01:58.274 event I went to with my family. 00:01:59.774 --> 00:02:05.234 And the venue was such that most of it was gravel, dirt, mostly like gravel. 00:02:05.534 --> 00:02:10.765 And when I say gravel, it was like crushed asphalt, like recycled asphalt from roadways, right? 00:02:11.357 --> 00:02:14.166 There was some actual gravel, but a lot of it was just crushed asphalt. 00:02:15.043 --> 00:02:21.094 And uh i i marveled at this one dude walking through the place there pushing 00:02:21.094 --> 00:02:25.242 a double stroller with his kids in it barefoot he was barefoot. 00:02:25.393 --> 00:02:28.928 He was although it's not the kids might not have he was barefoot 00:02:29.207 --> 00:02:32.539 Yeah and it's like 100 degrees or you know close to it that day so it's hot 00:02:32.911 --> 00:02:37.334 it's black crushed asphalt surface and dude's just out there pushing the stroller 00:02:37.334 --> 00:02:42.663 while he's walking around barefoot i'm like that would so not be jacob and it would also not be me. 00:02:42.994 --> 00:02:47.674 I find it impressive part of me is like wow dude you have worked hard at building 00:02:47.674 --> 00:02:51.004 up that tolerance and those calluses and whatever it is that allows you to do 00:02:51.004 --> 00:02:55.714 that props to you my feet are like little girl feet it's just 00:02:56.454 --> 00:03:00.792 like nothing I have zero tolerance for any discomfort at all on my feet 00:03:02.594 --> 00:03:07.264 He read that barefoot running book or whatever and he's like transform my life 00:03:07.264 --> 00:03:08.454 I'm never wearing shoes again. 00:03:09.528 --> 00:03:17.230 I guess They have barefoot running shoes now, which is ironic for sure. But okay, yeah, I get it. 00:03:18.432 --> 00:03:23.664 Anyway, today's episode, by the way, is sponsored by HK, our title sponsor of 00:03:23.664 --> 00:03:26.687 the podcast, as well as CCW Safe. 00:03:27.934 --> 00:03:32.634 We'll get into – well, actually, first, let's do talk about HK for a moment. 00:03:32.634 --> 00:03:36.934 I want to make sure we give a shout out to both these sponsors for being supporters 00:03:36.934 --> 00:03:42.304 of our sixth annual Guardian Conference coming up here in, well, 00:03:42.304 --> 00:03:43.957 less than a month. It feels pretty. 00:03:44.786 --> 00:03:46.788 I guess it's like three weeks from this weekend, isn't it? 00:03:47.410 --> 00:03:50.231 Yeah, it's like 15 days from the day we're recording this. 00:03:50.945 --> 00:03:53.871 Oh, maybe it's two weeks. Yeah, my calendar's all messed up then. 00:03:54.648 --> 00:03:59.407 Yeah, so coming up super quick, HK is a big supporter of the Guardian Conference, 00:03:59.407 --> 00:04:03.199 and our presenting sponsor of the Guardian Conference is CCW Safe. 00:04:03.658 --> 00:04:07.537 So they're both sponsors of this episode today, and they're big-time sponsors 00:04:07.537 --> 00:04:11.399 and supporters of the Guardian Conference. It would not happen without their support. 00:04:11.916 --> 00:04:17.338 We'll have a number of HK pistols available for people to borrow and use or 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.049 check out while they're at the event if they'd like to. 00:04:20.473 --> 00:04:24.066 And, of course, CCW Safe will be there throughout the weekend supporting the event. 00:04:24.803 --> 00:04:31.637 A couple of their attorneys that work on CCW Safe cases and various things will 00:04:31.637 --> 00:04:36.917 also be presenting classes like Don West and Sean Vincent, Jennifer Chance. 00:04:36.917 --> 00:04:42.147 So anyway, great folks, great companies, both of them supporters of this podcast 00:04:42.147 --> 00:04:44.128 and this episode here today. And we're thankful for that. 00:04:45.097 --> 00:04:48.157 I think you're going to find in some of the stories we shared with you guys 00:04:48.157 --> 00:04:50.920 today, because this is a Justified Saves episode, if I didn't mention that already. 00:04:51.558 --> 00:04:55.564 You want to have quality gear that supports your mission in life. 00:04:56.075 --> 00:04:58.785 And you want to make sure you have the stuff that works. 00:04:59.747 --> 00:05:02.895 That's what I'm going to stake my claim on. And so, you know, 00:05:03.093 --> 00:05:08.987 carrying my HK CC9 today, actually, kind of playing back around with the CC9 00:05:08.987 --> 00:05:12.758 after some months with the VP9K. 00:05:13.239 --> 00:05:18.081 So just switching it up, but sticking with the HK pistols, of course, 00:05:18.284 --> 00:05:20.049 because we know they work. We trust them. 00:05:20.536 --> 00:05:24.971 And we're thankful for their support of the podcast. HK-USA.com to learn more 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:29.662 or check out your local dealer to buy your next HK gun. 00:05:32.407 --> 00:05:37.019 Well, we've got a whole slew of cool stories to share with you today. 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:40.499 And we'll get to do a CCW Safe Sponsor message here in a little bit. 00:05:40.499 --> 00:05:44.709 But I wanted to jump into a couple of what not to do's. 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:48.649 So we've been doing these kind of stories for a long time. The idea here is 00:05:48.649 --> 00:05:51.789 there is some kind of lesson. 00:05:52.169 --> 00:05:55.309 Well, they all have lessons. But in this case, usually lessons is like, 00:05:55.541 --> 00:05:58.827 yeah, maybe you probably wouldn't do that. 00:06:00.169 --> 00:06:07.679 Uh so or or you know big time mistakes that were uh made uh legal ones tactical 00:06:07.679 --> 00:06:11.133 ones so we've got this first story, 00:06:12.074 --> 00:06:16.959 here out of florida and you were reading this one jacob and you're like oh this 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:22.465 one's this one's wild so why don't you give us a rundown on this one out of, 00:06:22.912 --> 00:06:25.709 florida it's uh what is it called here? 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:29.479 The homeowner fatally shoots woman in Leesburg after reported break-in. 00:06:29.479 --> 00:06:30.499 It actually reminds me of a 00:06:30.499 --> 00:06:34.487 similar one. I think it happened here in Colorado like a decade or so ago. 00:06:35.137 --> 00:06:36.877 But yeah, give us the rundown. 00:06:38.097 --> 00:06:44.808 So, you're at home, you know, chilling, relaxing, having a good time. 00:06:45.591 --> 00:06:50.253 And this person comes to the house and starts trying to force their way in. 00:06:50.630 --> 00:06:53.724 Now, it turns out that the BG, who's trying to force their way in, 00:06:54.287 --> 00:06:58.119 had been drinking the night of the shooting and apparently left the home angry 00:06:58.119 --> 00:06:59.732 regarding a personal situation. 00:07:00.325 --> 00:07:03.999 But you don't know that. This is just some random person trying to force their way into your house. 00:07:04.632 --> 00:07:10.199 So, what do you do about it? Well, what you do is you yell at them and tell 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.989 them to back off and stop trying to force the way into the house. That's what you do. 00:07:14.471 --> 00:07:17.079 And when they keep on going and keep on going, I don't know, 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.729 I'm seeing in my mind that they're pulling on the doorknob or trying to jiggle 00:07:21.729 --> 00:07:26.517 it or kick it or, you know, it says they're trying to force the way into the house. 00:07:27.126 --> 00:07:30.229 But, you know, they're not being successful at it, which is kind of a key point 00:07:30.229 --> 00:07:33.192 here. But at some point you decide that it's just too scary. 00:07:33.744 --> 00:07:39.925 So you shoot this woman, um, through the glass that's in the door. 00:07:41.504 --> 00:07:44.704 You know, because it's just, you know, you don't know. Are they about to open 00:07:44.704 --> 00:07:48.998 this door? And that would be too bad, you know, too late maybe. 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:52.841 So you decide better proactively to shoot this person through the glass. 00:07:53.514 --> 00:07:58.014 Bad news though, you miss. Your shot probably deflects through the glass or 00:07:58.014 --> 00:08:01.281 something. And we don't know where it goes if it doesn't strike this woman. 00:08:01.641 --> 00:08:03.795 And now you've created a hole in the glass. 00:08:04.364 --> 00:08:08.427 So the bg reaches their hand through said glass hole 00:08:08.956 --> 00:08:13.104 and tries to reach for the doorknob to open said door and now you're really 00:08:13.104 --> 00:08:17.264 panicked like oh crap like i have given this person their way in up till now 00:08:17.264 --> 00:08:19.985 my door was doing the job but i've just shot a hole through which 00:08:20.595 --> 00:08:25.804 the attacker can now reach their hand through and open my door i better shoot them again 00:08:26.527 --> 00:08:32.154 so you do you shoot a second time and this time darn it you make impact your 00:08:32.154 --> 00:08:38.644 your hit hits the woman and uh you know good job on your accuracy at what is 00:08:38.644 --> 00:08:40.649 effectively point blank range 00:08:41.218 --> 00:08:47.284 and now you're safe because this woman is done she dies at the scene and all 00:08:47.284 --> 00:08:48.619 you have to do is call 9-1-1 00:08:49.797 --> 00:08:54.744 Yeah so i had to laugh a little bit there as you were describing you know glass 00:08:54.744 --> 00:09:00.434 hole because You know, anyway, I don't think I've ever heard, 00:09:00.434 --> 00:09:03.784 uh, you know, the word glass hole and that sounds almost naughty. 00:09:03.784 --> 00:09:09.194 But, uh, anyway, uh, you know, the crazy thing is this woman just lived like 00:09:09.194 --> 00:09:12.123 two or three blocks away from this home. 00:09:12.617 --> 00:09:16.474 And the story goes, according to, I think, a roommate or someone from, 00:09:16.474 --> 00:09:20.146 from that home that she had been drinking. 00:09:20.662 --> 00:09:23.844 Yeah. As a roommate, she told officers she'd been drinking the night of that, 00:09:24.344 --> 00:09:28.969 incident and was upset about something and left the home angry. 00:09:29.486 --> 00:09:34.374 And so I guess she's drunk, out of her mind. She's angry. And so she decides 00:09:34.374 --> 00:09:37.020 to go and try to get into somebody else's home. 00:09:37.647 --> 00:09:39.435 Now, that's not, you know... 00:09:40.468 --> 00:09:44.746 Regardless if you're drunk or not, that's not a legal course of action. 00:09:45.836 --> 00:09:50.496 So what she did was obviously wrong. But what caught my eye about this story, 00:09:50.496 --> 00:09:56.266 as I'm sure it did with you, Jacob, was the fact that she hasn't yet gained access to the home. 00:09:56.266 --> 00:10:00.636 It doesn't even indicate in the story that she's, I mean, it seems she's trying 00:10:00.636 --> 00:10:05.760 to gain access, you know, but like she's not the one breaking the window, at least yet. 00:10:06.962 --> 00:10:10.926 And, you know, it's more of like she's banging on the door or trying to, 00:10:10.926 --> 00:10:13.167 you know, jiggle a handle or whatever it is, right? 00:10:14.236 --> 00:10:18.516 It's actually the homeowner that shoots the glass of the window of the door 00:10:18.516 --> 00:10:23.065 out and that gives her the ability to reach in and try to gain access to the home. 00:10:24.076 --> 00:10:28.661 That's really kind of what I see is certainly a tactical error in this case. 00:10:29.676 --> 00:10:34.826 And, yeah, I don't know, you know, It doesn't appear there's charges being filed 00:10:34.826 --> 00:10:36.067 or anything in this case. 00:10:37.336 --> 00:10:40.476 I think there's an investigation still taking place. 00:10:40.476 --> 00:10:44.416 It says that the state attorney's office is reviewing whether there's going 00:10:44.416 --> 00:10:45.706 to be criminal charges filed. 00:10:45.706 --> 00:10:49.176 I don't anticipate that's going to be the case here. But, you know, 00:10:49.176 --> 00:10:54.926 it's like probably not the best thing to shoot through. I mean, 00:10:54.926 --> 00:10:56.721 we've talked about this before, shooting through doors. 00:10:57.180 --> 00:10:59.916 A lot of times it's a problem to shoot through doors when you can't see what's 00:10:59.916 --> 00:11:03.036 on the other side. In this case, maybe he could see kind of, 00:11:03.036 --> 00:11:07.956 you know, through the window and yet missed his target and then provided an 00:11:07.956 --> 00:11:11.431 opportunity for that target to reach in and try to open the door. So... 00:11:13.045 --> 00:11:14.310 Yeah, it's a doozy. 00:11:14.740 --> 00:11:19.195 I mean, there could be context we don't have that's just not the news story, 00:11:19.195 --> 00:11:22.845 right? Like if I'm yelling at this woman to like, back off, this isn't your 00:11:22.845 --> 00:11:26.525 house. Go away. I'm calling the cops. And she keeps banging on the door. 00:11:27.085 --> 00:11:31.405 But then she reached down and picks up a metal pipe that's on the ground near 00:11:31.405 --> 00:11:35.503 the door and starts swinging it at the glass. That would be relevant. 00:11:36.645 --> 00:11:39.392 I'm not saying it's the best course of action to shoot her through the glass, 00:11:39.694 --> 00:11:42.475 but it would change the way I would perceive the events. 00:11:43.218 --> 00:11:48.390 But that's not what we think happened based on the description we're given in the news story. 00:11:49.017 --> 00:11:52.918 Bad tactics put you in compromised decision-making positions. 00:11:53.626 --> 00:11:58.555 So if I'm standing on one side of a door and the BG is standing on the other 00:11:58.555 --> 00:12:03.595 side of the door and they're banging and trying to get in, my proximity to the 00:12:03.595 --> 00:12:07.993 door has removed a bunch of options I otherwise would have had. 00:12:08.911 --> 00:12:14.240 Right? Because if they do suddenly break through that door, I am in immediate danger. 00:12:14.553 --> 00:12:17.005 Because I'm in arm's reach of the BG. 00:12:17.827 --> 00:12:21.873 Right? But if I had said, oh, geez, looks like someone's banging on my door, 00:12:22.725 --> 00:12:28.634 I'm going to go retreat further into the house, call 911, get a good position to cover, 00:12:29.705 --> 00:12:34.265 and maybe concealment and put myself maybe in a position where I can see the 00:12:34.265 --> 00:12:37.065 front door, but I have room so I can react. 00:12:37.485 --> 00:12:42.985 I can give additional commands. If they happen to breach the door and come in, 00:12:42.985 --> 00:12:46.223 then I'll give myself some time, some space. 00:12:47.025 --> 00:12:51.122 That person doesn't have a weapon. They're pounding on the door or whatever. So 00:12:51.505 --> 00:12:57.635 again, it's like bad tactics put you in a compromised decision-making position 00:12:57.908 --> 00:13:03.355 where you limited the options you had because you chose to be in more imminent 00:13:03.355 --> 00:13:04.752 danger than you had to be in. 00:13:05.495 --> 00:13:07.109 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 00:13:08.346 --> 00:13:11.857 Now, the story this reminded me of out of Colorado, I think it was the Boulder 00:13:11.857 --> 00:13:14.327 area, if I'm not mistaken, but this is a long time ago. 00:13:15.347 --> 00:13:18.719 When I say a decade ago, it was probably more like 13 years ago. 00:13:19.987 --> 00:13:22.917 And I'm just guessing at that, but it was a good while ago. And I think it was 00:13:22.917 --> 00:13:28.975 similar in that it was like a younger lady, like college age or young 20s, early 20s, 00:13:30.167 --> 00:13:36.177 drunk or high or something, and manages to make her way into an older couple's 00:13:36.177 --> 00:13:37.660 home where this older man, 00:13:39.146 --> 00:13:44.837 became aware of this person looming over him and his wife as they slept in their 00:13:44.837 --> 00:13:46.924 bed, and he grabs a gun and shoots her. 00:13:49.387 --> 00:13:54.737 And it's one of those things, and that was a little bit more clear cut because 00:13:54.737 --> 00:13:58.476 that person actually gained access to the home and was in the home, 00:13:58.825 --> 00:14:02.853 and it ends up being one of those lawful but awful kind of situations. 00:14:03.161 --> 00:14:05.807 Because, like, nobody wants to shoot somebody necessarily that, 00:14:05.807 --> 00:14:08.200 like, isn't actually intent on harming them. 00:14:08.513 --> 00:14:10.787 I mean, I'm not saying that person wasn't intent on harming, 00:14:10.787 --> 00:14:16.407 but, you know, like, and you might even be wondering, why was this drunk lady 00:14:16.407 --> 00:14:18.625 trying to, you know, bust into this dude's house? 00:14:18.921 --> 00:14:22.641 She might have actually been angry, left, and then thought she went back to her house. 00:14:23.332 --> 00:14:26.867 I mean, I don't, yeah. I mean, if you're, like, many neighborhoods, 00:14:27.506 --> 00:14:31.747 we've all seen these neighborhoods where every house looks almost the same, you know? 00:14:32.788 --> 00:14:37.947 And my neighborhood's not actually all that different from it as far as the 00:14:37.947 --> 00:14:39.297 houses can be sometimes. 00:14:39.297 --> 00:14:43.767 There's some uniqueness here and there, but I can definitely see somebody who's 00:14:44.087 --> 00:14:48.027 not quite with it mistaking their house for my house. 00:14:48.407 --> 00:14:50.581 And so it's definitely been a thing on my mind. 00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:55.397 Anyway, just mention that context is kind of food for thought as you're thinking 00:14:55.397 --> 00:14:59.596 about the potential scenarios you could maybe find yourself in one day. 00:15:00.616 --> 00:15:02.671 Let's go now to Arizona. 00:15:03.089 --> 00:15:04.076 Another window shooting. 00:15:04.465 --> 00:15:09.933 Yeah, exactly. Seeing a pattern here. I mean, today's episode is titled Shooting at Shadows. 00:15:10.404 --> 00:15:14.043 I mean, you've got the triple S disease that you coined, Jacob, which is? 00:15:15.408 --> 00:15:17.045 Shapes, shadows, and sounds. 00:15:17.346 --> 00:15:22.293 Yeah. And we generally advise against shooting at shapes, shadows, 00:15:22.293 --> 00:15:27.173 and sounds. And that would include shooting through doors or in other contexts 00:15:27.173 --> 00:15:30.279 where you just can't clearly identify what it is you're shooting at. 00:15:31.022 --> 00:15:35.863 Out of St. David, Arizona, you have an intruder who was shot and killed by a 00:15:35.863 --> 00:15:37.692 homeowner there. All right. 00:15:39.282 --> 00:15:44.623 Police were called there to burglary in progress. And what happened was there 00:15:44.623 --> 00:15:47.711 was a man, he's inside his home. He's got a couple of small children. 00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:51.173 Here's a window break. So this situation is a little different than that last 00:15:51.173 --> 00:15:55.223 one in that there is actually window breakage. 00:15:55.983 --> 00:16:00.463 In other words, an attempt to gain access to a home that's now actually breaking 00:16:00.463 --> 00:16:02.682 that barrier of protection. 00:16:04.163 --> 00:16:09.265 And the man checks his security system and sees someone standing just outside. 00:16:09.503 --> 00:16:14.658 So they've broken a window, and I guess they haven't quite made entry or whatever. All right. So. 00:16:17.015 --> 00:16:21.093 The homeowner says that after he then entered the main living area, 00:16:21.093 --> 00:16:27.584 he spotted a, quote, shadow near a window. that appeared to be someone trying to get inside. 00:16:27.938 --> 00:16:30.168 He then fired, shooting the man. 00:16:30.853 --> 00:16:36.843 The man standing just outside that window was a 67-year-old man who is probably 00:16:36.843 --> 00:16:41.233 not your typical criminal that does these kinds of things late at night, 00:16:41.233 --> 00:16:44.715 but you never know who that's going to be. 00:16:45.487 --> 00:16:49.373 We actually have known very little or really nothing about this guy or what 00:16:49.373 --> 00:16:52.302 his intent was, but that guy dies at the scene. 00:16:52.790 --> 00:16:56.296 And this is also one that's still being investigated. 00:16:57.768 --> 00:17:04.828 There is some context about what Arizona's quote-unquote castle doctrine says, 00:17:04.828 --> 00:17:07.524 and that's, you know, you'll probably have some thoughts on that, Jacob. 00:17:07.971 --> 00:17:14.548 But in the statute in Arizona, this article quotes saying that, 00:17:15.628 --> 00:17:20.548 a person in lawful possession of a property to threaten or use deadly physical 00:17:20.548 --> 00:17:24.275 force against someone committing or attempting a criminal trespass on that property. 00:17:25.448 --> 00:17:28.489 Allows for them to use... 00:17:29.528 --> 00:17:34.068 Let's see, I'm reading that weirdly now. It made more sense when I read it earlier. 00:17:34.695 --> 00:17:39.428 But allows a person in lawful possession of property to threaten, 00:17:39.428 --> 00:17:40.453 there we go, I read that wrong, 00:17:40.807 --> 00:17:44.331 to threaten or use deadly physical force against someone committing or attempting 00:17:44.488 --> 00:17:48.088 a criminal trespass on that property, if a reasonable person would believe it 00:17:48.088 --> 00:17:50.786 immediately necessary to prevent or stop the trespass. 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:55.807 However, deadly force is justified only when used in defense of the homeowner or another person. 00:17:56.370 --> 00:18:00.753 So I don't know what, you know, this particular incident makes of all of that. 00:18:01.223 --> 00:18:03.702 Usually, though, when we're talking about such things, Jacob, 00:18:03.865 --> 00:18:11.508 we advise caution to people about whether someone is actually breached into, 00:18:12.248 --> 00:18:14.267 the dwelling space or not. 00:18:15.008 --> 00:18:19.374 Shooting someone outside of the dwelling is generally ill-advised. 00:18:20.348 --> 00:18:28.134 It might be legally justified in certain contexts, depending on your specific state's statutes. 00:18:28.540 --> 00:18:33.728 But at the very least, tactically speaking, you know, I think it makes sense 00:18:33.728 --> 00:18:38.248 to take up a good defensible position as long as they're still outside the home 00:18:38.248 --> 00:18:42.588 and you've got a good viewpoint of where they may be breaching access. I mean, 00:18:43.686 --> 00:18:47.051 And if you got good firepower too, I don't know. I'd probably wait till they 00:18:47.051 --> 00:18:50.982 actually make entry into the home. But that's just my opinion. What are your thoughts? 00:18:51.337 --> 00:18:54.831 The laws on this are the same everywhere. So I don't buy for a second that it 00:18:54.831 --> 00:18:57.885 matters at all what state you're in when we have this conversation. 00:18:59.951 --> 00:19:05.925 This guy was alerted because his home alarm system said that this window had been opened. 00:19:06.360 --> 00:19:09.831 So, okay, that's weird. Why is this window open kind of thing? 00:19:09.831 --> 00:19:10.801 I'm going to go check it out. 00:19:11.236 --> 00:19:14.561 Walk into the living room. The window's wide open. I don't remember leaving. 00:19:14.561 --> 00:19:16.250 And oh, wait, there's a shadow out there. 00:19:16.744 --> 00:19:20.622 So the law in all 50 states is pretty much the same on this deal. 00:19:20.877 --> 00:19:25.666 Am I in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury? 00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:30.072 That would be the question in this moment. I'm certainly the innocent party. It's my house. 00:19:30.851 --> 00:19:36.301 So that seems pretty clear. It's not like unless I kicked this guy in the junk 00:19:36.870 --> 00:19:40.731 and I ran to my house and he's like trying to chase me or something, 00:19:40.731 --> 00:19:41.746 then maybe we have a little debate. 00:19:41.990 --> 00:19:44.323 But I'm the innocent party, so this is really a question of imminence, 00:19:44.817 --> 00:19:46.947 and this is a question of proportional use of force. 00:19:47.330 --> 00:19:50.662 So do I have an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury or not? 00:19:51.109 --> 00:19:53.164 And I think that the answer to that is maybe. 00:19:53.912 --> 00:19:57.221 That's maybe. If that guy in the window points a gun at me, I do. 00:19:57.790 --> 00:19:58.117 Oh, yeah. 00:19:58.585 --> 00:19:58.837 Right? 00:19:59.497 --> 00:20:01.657 So when weapons revolve, it's always a lot more straightforward. 00:20:01.657 --> 00:20:05.540 Right, right. So we can't just blanketly say like no under no circumstances. 00:20:05.894 --> 00:20:12.107 But if I just see a shadow out in the side yard through my window or the backyard 00:20:12.107 --> 00:20:17.247 through my window, that's a pretty hard sell for me personally to suggest that 00:20:17.247 --> 00:20:19.999 there's an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. 00:20:20.428 --> 00:20:24.237 So that's why I think from a legal perspective, we generally have exercised 00:20:24.237 --> 00:20:27.661 a little caution. They're like, probably not in your best interest legally. 00:20:28.537 --> 00:20:30.717 But I think a lot of this comes back to the ethical, moral stuff. 00:20:30.717 --> 00:20:34.647 Like, yeah, like we just, you know, the last story, we didn't know what this 00:20:34.647 --> 00:20:38.290 lady's issue was. She was attempting to commit a crime, no question about it. 00:20:38.545 --> 00:20:43.306 But she probably didn't deserve to die, right? And now we have a 67-year-old dude. 00:20:43.526 --> 00:20:48.087 Maybe he's like the best cat burglar of all time, and he just freaking breaks 00:20:48.087 --> 00:20:52.315 into people's houses for a living. And he's been doing it for 50 years. He's really good at it. 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.082 I don't know. Maybe he's a serial killer for all I know. We don't know. 00:20:56.877 --> 00:21:01.737 But at this moment when we fire on this man, it was probably unnecessary to 00:21:01.737 --> 00:21:04.947 protect human life. And that's kind of the point I think that the journalist 00:21:04.947 --> 00:21:09.787 was trying to make when they put the statute, which they started to quote. 00:21:09.787 --> 00:21:12.317 They quoted it wrong. I just looked at it. 00:21:13.137 --> 00:21:17.537 I just read it too. But the point that I think they were trying to make is this 00:21:17.537 --> 00:21:22.987 idea of, hey, in Arizona, you have a right to defend your stuff using some degree 00:21:22.987 --> 00:21:26.028 of physical force, which could be said in basically any state in America. 00:21:26.580 --> 00:21:31.167 But you only have the right to use a gun to defend your stuff when you're really 00:21:31.167 --> 00:21:33.453 not defending the stuff, when you're defending humans. 00:21:34.537 --> 00:21:38.764 And that's also true. That's the point in all 50 states, right? 00:21:39.118 --> 00:21:42.845 And so in this point, is there an imminent threat to humans? 00:21:43.897 --> 00:21:44.738 Hard sell. 00:21:46.297 --> 00:21:47.030 Hard sell. 00:21:47.576 --> 00:21:51.567 Yeah, and this case is still under investigation, and that may be something 00:21:51.567 --> 00:21:53.341 that they are, you know, looking at. 00:21:54.497 --> 00:21:57.983 So Cochise County is where this took place, and that's a fairly rural county. 00:21:58.823 --> 00:22:03.463 And it's probably one of those that's probably like, hey, bad guy, 00:22:03.463 --> 00:22:07.873 bad guy dead, you know, and he broke window. They're probably going to look 00:22:07.873 --> 00:22:10.244 the other way on this one. It wouldn't surprise me. 00:22:10.866 --> 00:22:14.323 But the key, and this is actually interesting. You say the law is pretty much 00:22:14.323 --> 00:22:17.309 the same everywhere you go as far as use of deadly physical force. 00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.813 This one's interesting, though, this statute, because it talks about how the 00:22:20.813 --> 00:22:24.472 person is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force. 00:22:24.751 --> 00:22:28.293 I don't recall reading a statute that says it in quite that way, 00:22:28.293 --> 00:22:33.003 where there's a situation you can threaten to use deadly force, 00:22:33.003 --> 00:22:35.931 like it's specifically called out like that. 00:22:36.570 --> 00:22:41.760 But then it says, or using physical force, which, no, is not deadly physical force. 00:22:41.969 --> 00:22:48.366 That's where the journalist gets it wrong, to stop that attempted commission of a criminal trespass. 00:22:48.807 --> 00:22:52.263 And then the next section is where it says, they may only use deadly physical 00:22:52.263 --> 00:22:55.587 force if it's in defense of yourself or third persons. 00:22:56.423 --> 00:23:02.053 And that gives additional subsections or sections, which reference basically 00:23:02.053 --> 00:23:06.319 what you just covered, Jacob. So anyway, that's an important clarification for people to know. 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.783 So, and anyway, what we're mostly interested in the story and why it's in the 00:23:11.783 --> 00:23:17.473 what not to do category is you got a guy who's not yet breached the, 00:23:17.473 --> 00:23:21.203 he's not in the home. He's not actually threatening you yet. 00:23:21.603 --> 00:23:23.554 He's threatened your, I mean, he's broken your property. 00:23:24.135 --> 00:23:26.803 That doesn't necessarily constitute a physical threat. I know there's people 00:23:26.803 --> 00:23:28.686 out there who probably disagree with us on that. That's fine. 00:23:30.381 --> 00:23:34.863 But then the other bigger, big problem here is shooting at a shape on the other 00:23:34.863 --> 00:23:36.279 side of, you know, that window. 00:23:37.492 --> 00:23:40.569 Yeah. Identify your target. Know what it is exactly you're shooting. 00:23:41.698 --> 00:23:45.798 And exercise some better tactics, man. Yeah. Like, where's the verbal command? 00:23:45.798 --> 00:23:47.094 Where's the use of cover? 00:23:47.546 --> 00:23:50.484 Where's the creating distance? Like, if we think that's a bad guy, 00:23:51.151 --> 00:23:54.321 because, you know, we don't know what other shadow it would be. 00:23:54.901 --> 00:23:57.638 All right. Like, I buy into, like, that's cool. But, like, probably, 00:23:57.638 --> 00:23:59.714 like, sending bullets is premature. 00:24:00.878 --> 00:24:03.516 You know, I think that we just have other options right now. 00:24:03.882 --> 00:24:10.196 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally. All right. Let's go to Chesapeake, Virginia. 00:24:11.485 --> 00:24:14.798 This is also a doozy. It's in our what not to do category. 00:24:15.238 --> 00:24:19.374 And I would say in a couple of different ways, it's in the what not to do category 00:24:19.798 --> 00:24:23.461 from both sides of the situation here. 00:24:25.783 --> 00:24:31.658 I do think in the end that the use of deadly force that was used in this situation 00:24:31.658 --> 00:24:34.818 is justified, but getting there is pretty messy. 00:24:35.138 --> 00:24:37.787 And I look forward to your input on that, Jacob. 00:24:38.316 --> 00:24:42.278 But basically, actually, I just did the details in that last story. 00:24:42.278 --> 00:24:44.115 So let's let you break this one down. 00:24:45.972 --> 00:24:47.302 Okay. 00:24:50.494 --> 00:24:55.429 Well, what you have is a delivery driver. 00:24:56.050 --> 00:25:00.038 That's the generic term used in the news stories. So in my mind, 00:25:00.038 --> 00:25:04.599 I'm seeing like an Amazon or a FedEx driver or something, you know. Yeah. 00:25:05.278 --> 00:25:06.118 Uber Eats, maybe. 00:25:06.558 --> 00:25:12.058 Right, right. And they're, quote, speeding through the neighborhood. Okay. Now, 00:25:15.629 --> 00:25:19.968 the victim in this case, ends up being the victim, yells at the delivery driver 00:25:19.968 --> 00:25:23.477 to slow down because his children are playing in the yard. 00:25:24.760 --> 00:25:29.188 Okay? So, it's like, hey, you know, dude, slow down. You're going too fast. 00:25:29.188 --> 00:25:31.476 You're going to hurt my kids kind of thing. 00:25:32.638 --> 00:25:36.869 Now, the delivery driver, I guess, takes offense at this maybe. 00:25:37.699 --> 00:25:40.738 And you kind of have to read like four different news stories to totally wrap 00:25:40.738 --> 00:25:43.818 your head around on this one. But the delivery driver returns. 00:25:45.158 --> 00:25:51.132 It's clear that he comes back and a verbal battle ensues. 00:25:53.204 --> 00:25:56.983 Keep in mind, we have like three or four different stories we read on this one. 00:25:57.789 --> 00:26:01.677 And I had to read several different stories to kind of start trying to, 00:26:02.176 --> 00:26:03.464 you know, put the picture together. 00:26:03.929 --> 00:26:07.232 And in one of those, it seemed to imply that maybe this was a dead end street, 00:26:07.656 --> 00:26:11.905 maybe like a cul-de-sac or that kind of thing. And I think that's why the delivery driver came back. 00:26:12.996 --> 00:26:17.274 I didn't get the impression he came back because he's like, I'm going to go 00:26:17.274 --> 00:26:20.607 back and settle this. It was that he was, in the course of his duties, 00:26:21.234 --> 00:26:24.368 traveling down the street and then had to come back up the street. 00:26:25.088 --> 00:26:29.935 Yeah, that could be. There's also one news story who said that our homeowner 00:26:30.664 --> 00:26:33.524 blocked him in, prevented him from being able to drive away. 00:26:33.524 --> 00:26:36.124 So I don't know if he pulled his car out. 00:26:36.739 --> 00:26:41.092 I mean, unclear what that looked like, but basically forced a confrontation. 00:26:41.371 --> 00:26:41.603 Yeah. 00:26:42.724 --> 00:26:46.644 So our homeowner forces a confrontation, presumably. I should also add that 00:26:48.070 --> 00:26:50.164 another one of the stories suggested it was not the homeowner, 00:26:50.164 --> 00:26:53.674 but the homeowner's wife who originally had words with this gentleman about 00:26:53.674 --> 00:26:56.627 slowing down. You're driving too fast. My kids are playing the arts. So that's unclear. 00:26:57.033 --> 00:27:00.974 The homeowner, he blocks in the driver and prevents his escape. 00:27:00.974 --> 00:27:05.894 And that's when the verbal fight really escalates, right? Because he can't drive 00:27:05.894 --> 00:27:09.104 off. And so now we're going to say our piece, man. We're going to let him know 00:27:09.104 --> 00:27:10.906 what we think about his driving or whatever. 00:27:11.469 --> 00:27:18.800 So the homeowner probably did not consider that this delivery driver was armed. 00:27:20.107 --> 00:27:24.664 But as it were, the delivery driver shows a lot of restraint because the homeowner 00:27:24.664 --> 00:27:26.144 just starts beating on this dude. 00:27:26.904 --> 00:27:30.624 It says he punched him in the face several times. I mean, that seems like he's 00:27:31.024 --> 00:27:31.955 giving him a good beating. 00:27:33.024 --> 00:27:40.215 And somewhere as this what was verbal, now physical fight is escalating, 00:27:40.761 --> 00:27:45.974 a I think a neighbor hands or a family member a family member brings and hands 00:27:45.974 --> 00:27:49.561 the homeowner a hatchet I'd love to talk to that dude 00:27:50.461 --> 00:27:53.960 You know, it's like, look, Uncle Bob's beating that guy good. 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:55.024 Someone get him a hatchet. 00:27:55.540 --> 00:27:58.980 Like, what is going on here? Like, who would think that was a good idea? 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:01.686 Like, he might be outgunned. Let's get him a hatchet. 00:28:02.389 --> 00:28:05.590 So someone. This is like a WWF match, you know? 00:28:06.550 --> 00:28:11.410 Like, you know, tap me in, buddy. Or, you know, like, here's a chair. 00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:12.790 You know, here's a hatchet, you know? 00:28:12.790 --> 00:28:17.190 Yeah, that's what happened. So someone hands the homeowner, a family member, 00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:18.910 hands the homeowner a hatchet. 00:28:20.810 --> 00:28:26.764 And now our hatchet-wielding homeowner is looking way more concerning to our delivery driver. 00:28:27.397 --> 00:28:31.884 So this is the point where the delivery driver decides the line has been crossed, 00:28:32.488 --> 00:28:35.036