Riley Bowman: And welcome to the Concealed Carry
Riley Bowman: Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network brought to you by HK.
Riley Bowman: Today is Friday, June 5th, 2026, as of the recording of this live episode.
Riley Bowman: And I am your host, Riley Bowman.
Riley Bowman: And of course, joined by Jacob Paulson.
Jacob Paulsen: Here i am
Riley Bowman: Okay he's yeah i was like i'm starting to wonder is he here is he not here i don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: All right he's here
Riley Bowman: Well we're glad to be with you all today this month or this episode is our what
Riley Bowman: we'd like to get back into the habit of doing our monthly justified saves episode uh,
Riley Bowman: so we've got a bunch of great justified save stories this is what we refer to
Riley Bowman: as We use justified saves to mean defensive gun uses, DGUs, for those that are
Riley Bowman: more familiar with that terminology.
Riley Bowman: These are typically civilian-oriented or based instances of defensive gun uses.
Riley Bowman: We try to pick the ones that we feel meet a justifiable standard.
Riley Bowman: And sometimes we talk about ones that maybe are less than justified in what
Riley Bowman: not to do. We got a story today that we'll share that's kind of interesting in that category.
Riley Bowman: Actually, several stories today seem to follow a little bit of a trend,
Riley Bowman: Jacob. I don't know if you picked up on this, but...
Jacob Paulsen: A little third-party involvement.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, kind of interesting because we don't... Like most of our Justified Safe
Riley Bowman: stories for sure are first-party, you know, involved individuals,
Riley Bowman: like defending themselves, defending their, I mean,
Riley Bowman: defending their family, which you could say is third party, but usually it means
Riley Bowman: you're defending yourself and your family, defending the occupants of a home.
Riley Bowman: And then we have certainly some of that today, but we have a couple of instances
Riley Bowman: today of people getting involved in other people's problems.
Riley Bowman: And I think that is interesting and certainly brings some lessons to be learned to the discussion.
Riley Bowman: So today's episode, by the way, is sponsored, brought to you by CCW Save.
Riley Bowman: They have been a wonderful supporter of the podcast for a number of years now.
Riley Bowman: And specifically, they sponsor this Justified Saves episode when we have these
Riley Bowman: episodes. So we appreciate their support.
Riley Bowman: I'll tell you, it comes into part of this episode today, the importance of having
Riley Bowman: good legal defense to back you up.
Riley Bowman: Because we're going to also go back a couple of years and provide an update,
Riley Bowman: on a story that we talked about.
Riley Bowman: I remember a few years ago, I don't know if it was you and me,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, or me and Matthew, but there's a story out of South Carolina that has been going through.
Riley Bowman: A court process, through the court process, through a defense trial.
Riley Bowman: And that was resolved this last week or so ago.
Riley Bowman: And it was resolved favorably in that person's situation, but we'll talk about what it really means for,
Riley Bowman: concealed carriers and why you wanna make sure you have the best legal protection
Riley Bowman: out there, which we believe is CCWsafe.
Riley Bowman: CCWsafe.com, of course, is their website.
Riley Bowman: And I don't know if there's anything else you'd like to add to that, Jacob?
Jacob Paulsen: Well, it's going to be an interesting conversation, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: with Mr. Chow's scenario there, but yeah, CCW Safe, kicking butt, taking names.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, absolutely. And Guardian Nation members, save, you know,
Riley Bowman: there's an opportunity for a discount there.
Riley Bowman: You can log in to your now redesigned, improved, cleaner, easier to navigate
Riley Bowman: Guardian Nation member dashboard, and you can find the CCW Safe discount,
Riley Bowman: opportunity that exists there for GN members. So take advantage of that.
Riley Bowman: Also, today's episode sponsored by HK, our title sponsor the podcast.
Riley Bowman: And they are sponsoring this episode today as well. Today's defenders,
Riley Bowman: well, as far as we know, carried quality tools, at least carried good enough
Riley Bowman: tools that work. But we think it's important you carry the best tools.
Riley Bowman: And so we put our lives and our trust in HK and HK USA's products.
Riley Bowman: HK USA is the US based operation. And of course, they make the new HK CC nine
Riley Bowman: right here in the good old USF a and and even the guns that come of course,
Riley Bowman: out of Germany are fantastic guns.
Riley Bowman: I've been, you know, rocking with the VP nine a one series pistols for a while
Riley Bowman: now. And I think they're fantastic.
Riley Bowman: And the CC nine is a great choice for a compact option as well.
Riley Bowman: What have you been carrying lately, jacob cc9 i think.
Jacob Paulsen: Cc9 yeah almost exclusively for many months
Riley Bowman: Yeah it's a great gun fantastic gun so,
Riley Bowman: guys check out hk and support our sponsors and support us to make us bringing
Riley Bowman: this content to you possible you can go to hk-usa.com for the website and uh yep thanks for,
Riley Bowman: doing that so that we can keep rocking here with the quality content on the podcast.
Riley Bowman: Well, Jacob, we've got up first. We typically like to cover our what not to do's and who stories.
Riley Bowman: This is definitely, there's some things here that, lessons to be learned as
Riley Bowman: to why we caution people getting involved in other people's problems.
Riley Bowman: And that's kind of the highlight here of our what not to do.
Riley Bowman: So a story out of Hazel Park, Michigan reported on clickondetroit.com.
Riley Bowman: Apparently hazel park i presume is like a suburb or a part of,
Riley Bowman: uh the detroit area i don't know for sure but that's that's how i see this,
Riley Bowman: so anyway we had a after prom party taking place there uh and unfortunately
Riley Bowman: the end result of that party was a 20 year old man dead and a 19-year-old woman,
Riley Bowman: injured, presumably seriously.
Riley Bowman: This is kind of an interesting situation. We had multiple witnesses involved.
Riley Bowman: Of course, it's a party, so that's to be expected. We got a number of people
Riley Bowman: there, and there's multiple witnesses.
Riley Bowman: They said the shooting occurred in response to an alleged armed robbery of a wristwatch.
Riley Bowman: That seems kind of unusual in today's world, Jacob. I don't hear very often
Riley Bowman: about like, hey, man, nice watch. Like, give me your watch. I mean,
Riley Bowman: I know it happens. It's just to hear that like as like the central like starting
Riley Bowman: point of this story is kind of interesting.
Jacob Paulsen: I think everything about this is weird. I mean, to add some more context,
Jacob Paulsen: this is an after prom party. Now, prom is a high school event.
Jacob Paulsen: It could be junior prom, senior prom, doesn't really matter.
Jacob Paulsen: But you don't have a lot of 20-year-olds, 21-year-olds, and 19-year-olds that
Jacob Paulsen: are still in high school.
Jacob Paulsen: And only people mentioned in this news story are 19 or older.
Jacob Paulsen: So this is already a little bit like – and this is at an Airbnb.
Jacob Paulsen: This is at a short-term rental.
Jacob Paulsen: And so this is not even at someone's house where there's parents involved.
Jacob Paulsen: The whole thing is dicey and questionable.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, it is. And although I feel like you're being a little bit judgy because,
Riley Bowman: you know, maybe these kids were all a little slow to, you know,
Riley Bowman: graduate high school, you know, they got held back a few years, you know?
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe, maybe, you know, that could explain some of the judgment we see here. I mean, who am I to say?
Jacob Paulsen: But, you know, it's the point is like, this is not a bunch of 16 year olds.
Jacob Paulsen: These are the people involved in this incident. I don't know who all was there
Jacob Paulsen: at the after prom party, but the people involved directly in what happened are all very much so adults.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah. So you got this 20-year-old, and it's interesting,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, because it consistently in the story refers to the 20-year-old as the victim.
Riley Bowman: However, they are the one that perpetrated the robbery of the wristwatch.
Riley Bowman: Okay, so the story basically goes, according to witness statements, that this 20-year-old,
Riley Bowman: Attempts to rob somebody. I don't even know who that is. Of the wristwatch.
Riley Bowman: And the third party, the shooter in this case, it just says that he was a witness to the robbery.
Riley Bowman: So he's apparently not the one being robbed.
Riley Bowman: But he sees the robbery taking place.
Jacob Paulsen: Worth clarifying, it's an armed robbery.
Riley Bowman: Right, right, right. Armed robbery. And I think I did say that earlier.
Riley Bowman: But yeah, armed robbery. So armed robbery, wristwatch, 20-year-old.
Riley Bowman: Okay, so third party individual witnessing this chooses to engage and does say
Riley Bowman: that this person had a concealed pistol license.
Riley Bowman: And that person gets involved and shoots the 20-year-old.
Riley Bowman: I mean, of course, we know the outcome of that is he's dead.
Riley Bowman: Now, you may be thinking like, okay, I mean, like what's the big to do here?
Riley Bowman: I mean, like 20 year old guy, armed robberies, you know, you know,
Riley Bowman: arm robs a person of their property.
Riley Bowman: Other dude shoots the armed robber. And like, what's the big to do here?
Riley Bowman: Is interestingly enough.
Riley Bowman: I saw another story, too, somewhere. I don't know where that actually ended
Riley Bowman: up. I think there was a source here.
Riley Bowman: But the point is, there's an ongoing investigation here. It does say to the
Riley Bowman: person, it's unsure if he's going to face charges related to the incident.
Riley Bowman: But um the the question here or the really what we're trying to pose to you
Riley Bowman: is be careful getting involved in other people's problems because the other
Riley Bowman: source i was thinking of jacob that,
Riley Bowman: i don't have here for whatever reason is it was basically talking about how
Riley Bowman: it was unclear to some of the observers who the actual bad guy was,
Riley Bowman: so you got other witnesses that were basically calling into question like,
Riley Bowman: well, we're not really sure who, you know, like it was unclear to people.
Riley Bowman: And that was kind of the point that I took from this was you're a third party
Riley Bowman: observer and you don't maybe always know who the initial aggressor is or who
Riley Bowman: the actual bad guy is or if this person with a gun is the armed robber or he's
Riley Bowman: a person that's responding to a robbery himself.
Riley Bowman: And now you're observing that and, but you're, you know, you see what I mean?
Riley Bowman: Like it can get messy really fast.
Jacob Paulsen: There's some interesting language in the news story and sometimes you know we
Jacob Paulsen: split hairs over these things because the objective here is not to perfectly
Jacob Paulsen: nail down what happened the objective here
Jacob Paulsen: is to try and learn some things and grow as concealed carriers and use this
Jacob Paulsen: as a back of like a backdrop for the conversation so but that said like the exact wording used is um
Jacob Paulsen: the shooter who police say had a valid concealed pistol license shot the victim
Jacob Paulsen: after witnessing the robbery occur so that's very interesting because that would
Jacob Paulsen: if we take this at a very literal level and trust the journalist all questionable
Jacob Paulsen: but that would suggest that the robbery happened and then the robbery was over,
Jacob Paulsen: not happening and then our good guy with the gun decided to shoot the bad guy
Jacob Paulsen: who had robbed the person of a watch yeah,
Riley Bowman: That's a great point yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: The timing is suggestive of being I'll call it criminal action Like I don't
Jacob Paulsen: think it's legally justified to observe an armed robbery take place.
Jacob Paulsen: And then when it's over and done to say, I'm going to go shoot that guy who
Jacob Paulsen: stole that person's watch.
Jacob Paulsen: So maybe, again, I'm splitting hairs, reading too much into it,
Jacob Paulsen: whatever. You can take that for whatever it's worth.
Jacob Paulsen: But that's problematic. And it's worth noting, I think the other kind of half
Jacob Paulsen: of this, which is where you were going, is that somebody else was injured,
Jacob Paulsen: right? It wasn't just the armed robber.
Jacob Paulsen: So we're in a busy Airbnb with a party going on, presumably with some high schoolers
Jacob Paulsen: maybe, and a bunch of adults, probably some other things going on that most
Jacob Paulsen: parents of high schoolers would not be thrilled about.
Jacob Paulsen: And so what I'm saying is it's probably crowded. There's probably a lot of people there.
Jacob Paulsen: And we're shooting probably in a way that's not super clean.
Riley Bowman: Absolutely. Yeah, a 19-year-old woman suffered injuries, non-life-threatening, but still serious.
Riley Bowman: Because as of several days, I found another source here, as of several days
Riley Bowman: after the incident, she was still hospitalized.
Riley Bowman: So, you know, as far as we know, the good guy in this case, as it's presented,
Riley Bowman: is the only one that fired shots.
Riley Bowman: Right. She somehow ended up injured. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So so we didn't have a clean you know safe
Jacob Paulsen: uh backdrop we weren't mindful of our environment we involved ourselves presumably
Jacob Paulsen: after the armed robbery already taken place and was was no longer happening so
Jacob Paulsen: now it's just about i don't know justice or getting a watch back hard to say which
Jacob Paulsen: and um yeah not none of that is none of that is okay none of that i would call
Jacob Paulsen: strongly ethical or strongly legal.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. An interesting side angle of this whole thing is the Harvey,
Riley Bowman: was it Harvey or Hazel Park, Hazel Park,
Riley Bowman: you know, community, this little city, this suburb, whatever,
Riley Bowman: like one of the reactionary things that they've done to this is like,
Riley Bowman: they're putting a moratorium on issuing of any new short-term rental,
Riley Bowman: licenses in that jurisdiction because, you know, wow, this is a problem.
Riley Bowman: So, you know, we're having shootings at the short-term rentals.
Riley Bowman: So the answer is to, you know, not issue any new licenses.
Riley Bowman: Anyway, I just thought that was part of the story.
Jacob Paulsen: It's the equivalent of like, we need to license people who grow wheat because,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, drunk driving has become an issue.
Riley Bowman: Or barley. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. That's how it feels. Like, it's like, what?
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah. Good point.
Jacob Paulsen: Got to be doing something.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Got to do something, yeah.
Riley Bowman: Doing something's better than doing nothing.
Riley Bowman: Anyway, let's go now to our next story. This is a justified safe story out of,
Riley Bowman: Bartlesville, Oklahoma.
Riley Bowman: Armed bystander stops scissors attack. I saw this headline and I was like,
Riley Bowman: no way. Like, that's just kind of, you know.
Jacob Paulsen: We have two scissors attacks this episode. So I'm just putting that out. Yes.
Riley Bowman: Yes.
Jacob Paulsen: It's like we got some people from the UK over here trying to figure out how to create mayhem.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. So why don't you give us the details on this one out of Oklahoma?
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, my gosh. All right. So the police respond to reports of a shooting at a
Jacob Paulsen: shopping center. So you can imagine whatever you want for a shopping center.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't really know what that is. Maybe some mall. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: So anyway, they secure the scene. And here's what we got from witnesses and
Jacob Paulsen: the interviews, et cetera.
Jacob Paulsen: The armed individual observed a man allegedly attempting to assault another
Jacob Paulsen: person with a pair of scissors.
Jacob Paulsen: So I'm seeing this in my head. I'm thinking, all right, I'm like looking over
Jacob Paulsen: at the other side of the shopping center.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's this guy. He's got these scissors. And he's like,
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know, like trying to jab somebody or hit them with – he's attempting
Jacob Paulsen: to assault somebody allegedly with these scissors. so um
Jacob Paulsen: As you see this, you, the armed bystander, draw and fire your gun,
Jacob Paulsen: effectively striking the man who has said scissors carrying out the assault.
Jacob Paulsen: So detectives show up and they're trying to decide what's going on.
Jacob Paulsen: This story is an interesting one because most news publications,
Jacob Paulsen: in my experience, when they publish a story and then they have an update to
Jacob Paulsen: that story, they either publish an entirely separate story or they just change it.
Jacob Paulsen: They just update the actual story and they put like updated, you know, with a date.
Jacob Paulsen: But this one, you actually get the current story. And then at the bottom,
Jacob Paulsen: it says, you know, the original story. And it gives you the entire original
Jacob Paulsen: story, which I find fascinating.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's not a lot of different details as far as, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: in the original story that, you know, we got more details now.
Jacob Paulsen: Now we know that there were scissors involved, basically.
Jacob Paulsen: But it's clear that both the original and the new version of the story both
Jacob Paulsen: say that like this investigation is not over. Like we're still looking into this.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. It even said in the updated story that no arrests have been made.
Riley Bowman: Yes. Like, so I mean, scissors toting dude obviously has shooting as a scissors
Riley Bowman: and is supposedly assaulting somebody gets shot.
Riley Bowman: It doesn't actually say that person is, They got shot, like died or anything, right?
Riley Bowman: Did I, I didn't miss any, just says injured.
Jacob Paulsen: It says he's receiving emergency medical treatment.
Riley Bowman: So typically if you got a bad guy, like even if they end up needing medical
Riley Bowman: treatment, you know, they spend a few days in the hospital or whatever.
Riley Bowman: Like they, they typically still get arrested and are placed under arrest while
Riley Bowman: they're getting treatment. You know what I mean? Like, so that,
Riley Bowman: that little detail I thought was kind of interesting that no,
Riley Bowman: no arrests have been made. Mmm.
Jacob Paulsen: But there could be a mental health issue or concern here.
Jacob Paulsen: There could be a domestic thing going on. You know, for all we know,
Jacob Paulsen: the man with the scissors was defending himself from some crazy,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, ex-girlfriend. I mean, we don't, we don't, we just don't know,
Jacob Paulsen: right? Like there's, you know, any number of potential things.
Jacob Paulsen: And it does, it specifically says that the condition of the alleged assaulter
Jacob Paulsen: of scissors, with scissors, his condition was not released. So,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, maybe he did die. Maybe he didn't die. You know, condition not released.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: But regardless, we have another incident of somebody observing something at
Jacob Paulsen: a certain distance and saying, oh, my day has come.
Jacob Paulsen: This is why I carry this gun is to protect people from crazy scissor assaulting people.
Jacob Paulsen: And so I'm on this. I'm jumping in.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's a lot of things we don't know, Riley, like were verbal commands given.
Jacob Paulsen: Hey, drop those scissors. Hey, you know, cut this out. Hey, stopped it.
Jacob Paulsen: You know, like, or was it just like, oh, that's not good. Draw a bang.
Jacob Paulsen: You know, I mean, we don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: But those are things that are worth thinking through.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yep. Very, very interesting story there. And again, caution with getting
Riley Bowman: involved in other people's problems. Like, you know, what was going on here?
Riley Bowman: What was the deal with the scissors? Who was doing what to who? Who is the bad guy here?
Riley Bowman: Et cetera, et cetera. By the way, did you see that I put it up? I left it up here.
Riley Bowman: It's been a minute or two, but Phil commenting on Facebook, you know,
Riley Bowman: this is obviously in reference to our sponsor, to one of our sponsors of today's
Riley Bowman: episode being HK says he owns a P7 M13, a Mark 23 and a USB 45.
Riley Bowman: I stopped a robbery at my pharmacy with the latter.
Riley Bowman: That's awesome, dude. We'd love to hear more about that, by the way. Feel free to message us.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, it's interesting because we are – yes, Phil, you should definitely message
Jacob Paulsen: us. We'd love to chat with you.
Jacob Paulsen: But I feel like sometimes we talk out of two sides of our mouth and the listeners
Jacob Paulsen: might see some hypocrisy from us.
Jacob Paulsen: Because out of one side of our mouths, we're saying, hey, be careful about getting
Jacob Paulsen: involved in third-party situations. You don't know what you're doing.
Jacob Paulsen: And then on the other side, we're like, hey, good job stopping this robbery at your pharmacy.
Jacob Paulsen: Right? Which is frankly a third party situation. And so I guess I'm just feeling
Jacob Paulsen: like we have to add some context or clarity that it's, we're not saying you
Jacob Paulsen: should never get yourself involved in third party situations.
Jacob Paulsen: I think what we're trying to say is that when you're getting involved in a third
Jacob Paulsen: party situation, there's an added level of risk because you lack information.
Jacob Paulsen: And that lack of information increases your risk, both legally and morally.
Jacob Paulsen: So it doesn't mean you shouldn't get involved, it just means that you know less
Jacob Paulsen: than you would if you were the first party, right? If you were directly involved in the incident.
Jacob Paulsen: And so there's a higher burden on you to try and get information.
Jacob Paulsen: And me and Riley, we're not there, right? We're reading news stories.
Jacob Paulsen: So maybe if we went and interviewed the guy at the mall or this guy on Facebook
Jacob Paulsen: who stopped the robbery at the pharmacy, they might be like,
Jacob Paulsen: oh, it was super obvious.
Jacob Paulsen: I saw this and this and this, and that made it very clear to me what was going on.
Jacob Paulsen: And we might be like, oh, geez, well that makes total sense right like we just
Jacob Paulsen: don't know um so we're giving this kind of cautionary tell right
Riley Bowman: And that's exactly it we are saying be careful you know and that care is make
Riley Bowman: sure you know what's going on there is a there's a difference between an armed
Riley Bowman: robbery at a pharmacy and,
Riley Bowman: an armed robbery on the street and i know that like you're like well an armed
Riley Bowman: robbery is an armed robbery um,
Riley Bowman: When you're in, say, a pharmacy, you've got pharmacy workers.
Riley Bowman: They're behind one side of a counter.
Riley Bowman: And when you have somebody on the other side of that counter with a gun in their
Riley Bowman: hand, that's usually pretty clear. That's a lot easier to read of a situation than just...
Riley Bowman: I like to share the experience that I had a number of years ago when I was working
Riley Bowman: in a construction project in Aurora,
Riley Bowman: Colorado, of all places, and saw a man carrying a gun, like outstretched moving
Riley Bowman: towards somebody in a parking lot and i'm going oh my gosh i'm about to watch
Riley Bowman: somebody get you know whacked,
Riley Bowman: and that man carrying a gun moving with purpose towards somebody else in this
Riley Bowman: parking lot was an undercover cop,
Riley Bowman: you see what i mean like it would have been easy for me to perceive that as
Riley Bowman: being an armed robbery because but the context was very different than an armed
Riley Bowman: robbery in a pharmacy, for instance, you know, again, it's just,
Riley Bowman: everything is contextually dependent, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Yes. Yes. And I think one of, one of the, and I think, I think I've talked about
Jacob Paulsen: this many times, but I struggle, I struggle every time I see one of these news
Jacob Paulsen: incidents where we're using guns and,
Jacob Paulsen: Potentially just to protect property.
Jacob Paulsen: And I struggle because an armed robbery at a pharmacy is a great example of
Jacob Paulsen: a situation where we just don't know what the likelier intended outcome is.
Jacob Paulsen: Like we know that they want money or valuables or drugs or whatever the thing
Jacob Paulsen: is at a pharmacy that they're robbing.
Jacob Paulsen: But we don't know if they're going to get that stuff and then shoot the people,
Jacob Paulsen: if they're going to shoot witnesses, if they're going to go out with a blazing
Jacob Paulsen: gunfire, or if they're going to be like, sweet, we got the pills, let's roll.
Jacob Paulsen: We don't even know sometimes, plenty of times we've caught armed robbers who
Jacob Paulsen: were actually using fake guns or BB guns or any number of other things that
Jacob Paulsen: weren't even really deadly threats.
Jacob Paulsen: So it's one of those situations that really is contextually dependent where
Jacob Paulsen: you end up having to make a judgment call, one that's right for you on site,
Jacob Paulsen: on scene, based on all those little details and your instincts and all that stuff.
Jacob Paulsen: And I never mean to suggest that, in hindsight, looking at this as the Monday
Jacob Paulsen: morning quarterback, that it was the right or wrong judgment call.
Jacob Paulsen: I only mean to point out that there has to be a judgment call there because
Jacob Paulsen: certain plenty of armed robberies of watches after prom parties probably end
Jacob Paulsen: with nothing more wrong happening than someone's lost a watch.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: All right. Moving to the next story here. Tulsa, Oklahoma. So also out of Oklahoma.
Riley Bowman: This is a sad one, right? You know, when we come across some ones like this,
Riley Bowman: it always is sad, you know, because this is a family that's involved.
Riley Bowman: And domestic violence situations are they're just they're tragic,
Riley Bowman: no matter which way you look at it.
Riley Bowman: Yes, there may very well usually is a bad guy, you know, involved or could be
Riley Bowman: a woman. But in this case, we have an unfortunate bad guy who happens to be,
Riley Bowman: a father, a 49-year-old man.
Riley Bowman: He attacked his son, 16-year-old son, assaulted his wife.
Riley Bowman: So this is a domestic violence situation that's very violent and getting out
Riley Bowman: of control very rapidly.
Riley Bowman: Um so apparently presumably as you know the maybe the attention was turned to
Riley Bowman: the wife the 16 year old boy goes and grabs a gun that was kept in this apartment and shot his dad,
Riley Bowman: shot his dad in the head in fact killed him right there on the site it's interesting it was uh,
Riley Bowman: specific enough in the story to state that that he was found you know police
Riley Bowman: found him dead with a gunshot wound to the head uh,
Riley Bowman: absolutely tragic traumatizing terrible i mean the the domestic violence itself
Riley Bowman: is traumatizing enough and then of course the trauma,
Riley Bowman: actually you know having used violence against your father and killing him i
Riley Bowman: can only imagine how how terrible that would be,
Riley Bowman: but this is where you know i mean if we were to look back over all the justified
Riley Bowman: saved episodes jacob that we've covered over the years,
Riley Bowman: if you were to take a guess i mean just obviously this is not scientific in
Riley Bowman: any way but How many times would you say we've covered a story where a minor
Riley Bowman: occupant of a home grabs a firearm and uses it in defense? Hmm.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. 30 to 50 times.
Riley Bowman: More times than people would probably think, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, it happens.
Riley Bowman: And we don't even cover all the stories that exist out there, right?
Riley Bowman: But out of the ones we've come across over the years, I mean,
Riley Bowman: yes, dozens of times we have had stories like this. And so this is where I get
Riley Bowman: a little bit testy, you know, with legislators that want to impose,
Riley Bowman: storage requirements on families, you know. Oh, absolutely.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. If this place, if this had happened in Colorado, then however this gun
Jacob Paulsen: was stored that this 16-year-old was able to retrieve it was illegal storage.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. I mean, it would have been criminal.
Jacob Paulsen: Luckily, you know, defense to having broken that law is using the gun in self-defense.
Jacob Paulsen: So he wouldn't have been charged here in Colorado.
Jacob Paulsen: But the way the gun was stored was definitely illegal.
Jacob Paulsen: And so, yeah, it is a very frustrating situation. And we're talking about a situation.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, I don't know all the details about why these people owned a gun,
Jacob Paulsen: but I think based on interactions I have with students who come through my classes
Jacob Paulsen: that a large number, particularly of female students,
Jacob Paulsen: Divorcees, women who are divorced from a man or an ex-boyfriend,
Jacob Paulsen: a lot of them get restraining orders and then they go get a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: They look at it like, hey, I'm going to be on my own. The cops aren't going to show up on time.
Jacob Paulsen: And so I need a gun and I need to know how to use that gun because I might be
Jacob Paulsen: the person in the next news story.
Jacob Paulsen: And we've seen that play out enough times, not in the news stories,
Jacob Paulsen: but I've seen enough people come through my classes saying that that's their
Jacob Paulsen: game. That's why they're coming through.
Jacob Paulsen: I know an instructor who had a student come through once to get her permit and
Jacob Paulsen: to go buy a gun and then came back to the class two years later after she had
Jacob Paulsen: shot and killed her ex-husband and wanted to take the class a second time.
Jacob Paulsen: So my point is that we see this a lot because restraining orders do nothing
Jacob Paulsen: to protect people in the moment.
Jacob Paulsen: They potentially give law enforcement a valid way to take some action.
Jacob Paulsen: But in the moment that the ex-husband,
Jacob Paulsen: the ex-boyfriend, the stalker comes knocking, cops ain't there.
Jacob Paulsen: And so this is a semi-common means of planning to defend oneself.
Jacob Paulsen: And so I see a world where I'm making this up where the mom's like,
Jacob Paulsen: hey, 16-year-old son, your dad's freaking crazy lunatic nut job,
Jacob Paulsen: as you know. And so we got this gun right here. And, you know,
Jacob Paulsen: if he comes to knocking, like, this is how you get it. This is how you access it.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, do what's got to be done. And that's what happens here.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: That's a good summary, Jacob, and I appreciate you sharing some additional context
Riley Bowman: from your own experience, folks you've trained over the years.
Riley Bowman: And I agree with everything you said there.
Riley Bowman: This is also why I get upset when we institute things like mandatory waiting
Riley Bowman: periods for gun purchases by lawful individuals.
Riley Bowman: Because who's to say that someone going into a gun store today who is a lawful
Riley Bowman: individual doesn't need a gun potentially that day.
Riley Bowman: And I think we've even covered stories where like a person, I don't remember
Riley Bowman: a specific one, but I feel like there was one we covered where someone acquired
Riley Bowman: a gun and like needed it that night.
Riley Bowman: So yeah, good stuff. as far as good lessons learned from this.
Riley Bowman: These are the kinds of things, the
Riley Bowman: nuances and the context that need to be considered about such policies.
Riley Bowman: Obviously, we're not believers of any sort of amount of gun control at all, but,
Riley Bowman: this is something I wish that our lawmakers would actually pay attention to a little bit more.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, these things happen.
Riley Bowman: Next story. How about this?
Jacob Paulsen: X is X. It's confusing.
Riley Bowman: X is X breaks in, armed, defender fires back.
Riley Bowman: I had to read this story a couple of times to make sense of it.
Riley Bowman: By the way, this is out of Springfield, Ohio.
Riley Bowman: Initially, I saw Springfield and I was like, oh, Illinois? No,
Riley Bowman: this is in Ohio. So Springfield, Ohio.
Riley Bowman: Jacob, you explained to us the confusion of the story here. The ex's ex.
Riley Bowman: Who's the ex's ex here? What's going on?
Jacob Paulsen: Well, the problem is that there's three exes. Everybody in this story is an ex of somebody else.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. And so how I interpret this is you have a woman, and she has two exes.
Jacob Paulsen: One of those exes is our aggressor, and one of those exes is our good guy.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So the good guy X happens to be present. Like this must be one of those mutual
Jacob Paulsen: breakup things where it's like, yeah, we're exes, but we're still friends.
Jacob Paulsen: You know, I'm over here hanging out with my ex.
Jacob Paulsen: We're chilling. You know, it's all good.
Jacob Paulsen: So you got one ex hanging out with the ex and there that's a cordial meetup.
Jacob Paulsen: But then the other ex shows up and this ex is violent and not there to sip coffee
Jacob Paulsen: and talk about old time sake.
Jacob Paulsen: And so the cordial ex has to shoot the other ex to save the woman who's the ex of both.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: That's what I got out of it as well.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, this is messy. And relationships are messy. But, man, somebody here needs
Riley Bowman: to get things figured out.
Riley Bowman: And if you fit in one of these categories, most of us do in some way,
Riley Bowman: just, I guess, be careful getting involved with your exes.
Riley Bowman: I mean, I don't know what's going on here, right? But man, you know,
Riley Bowman: you're, you're an ex girl or boyfriend or whatever, and you're over at your
Riley Bowman: ex-girlfriend's house and she's got another ex that shows up,
Riley Bowman: you know, trying to basically kill everybody.
Riley Bowman: I mean, like, this is just, this is like stuff out of a movie made for a movie.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, it gets, it gets serious too. Cause like the, the good guy X,
Jacob Paulsen: he calls nine one one when the bad guy X forces entry.
Jacob Paulsen: And the bad guy X, by the way, guess why he came over? He came over to get his gun.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So bad guy X forces entering the home, says, I want my gun back.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm making up the words. I'm here for my gun. Give me my gun, darn it.
Jacob Paulsen: The good guy X gets on the phone. Hey, 911, we got this crazy lunatic over here saying he wants his gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And the bad guy presumably gets his gun or he brought another one with him because it says
Riley Bowman: He pulled out a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah it says he pulled out he drew and fired a shot that missed no one gets
Jacob Paulsen: hit by this now good guy x who's on the phone with 911 is like oh dang this
Jacob Paulsen: just got real so he draws his gun this is a gun loving group i mean
Jacob Paulsen: they just they all got guns and so he draws his gun and returns fire or fires
Jacob Paulsen: and uh that's that's where now we got multiple multiple gunshot wounds on the bad guy x
Riley Bowman: Yeah and he passes away.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah medics for being shot
Riley Bowman: Uh sorry to laugh but i mean again the whole situation is just it's nuts this
Riley Bowman: is a crazy one um but in this case appears to be a lawful use of deadly force in defense.
Riley Bowman: And I think an interesting point here, Jacob, is just to point out that and I think this is true of,
Riley Bowman: most states, as far as I know. But specifically, again, this is in Ohio.
Riley Bowman: And I believe this is how it would play out in Colorado and any number of states.
Riley Bowman: But here you have an individual who no longer resides at this residence, right?
Riley Bowman: And, you know, it specifically says that, you know, I mean, this is an instance
Riley Bowman: of castle doctrine coming into play, right? Right.
Riley Bowman: And a lot of statutes like Colorado, I believe, uses the word occupant to describe,
Riley Bowman: someone in a home or residence. Right.
Riley Bowman: Not homeowner, not apartment dweller or anything like that, but like an occupant.
Riley Bowman: And presumably like the way the law, I believe, would define it is someone who
Riley Bowman: is who lives there or is invited to be there.
Riley Bowman: An occupant of the home is someone who is there and is allowed to be there.
Riley Bowman: They don't have to necessarily be a resident. They don't have to be an owner,
Riley Bowman: but they are a lawful occupant of the dwelling.
Riley Bowman: And then in this case, you have someone who is not welcome to be there,
Riley Bowman: breaking his, barging his way in and attempting to kill everybody. Right.
Riley Bowman: And so I think it's just an interesting thing to point out that in the case
Riley Bowman: of castle doctrine issues.
Riley Bowman: I believe, and again, I can't speak to every state. I haven't read every single
Riley Bowman: state statutes, at least with a fine tooth comb, but I believe typically an
Riley Bowman: occupant would be the way to think of it.
Riley Bowman: And if you're legally allowed to be there, then you're allowed to use self-defense
Riley Bowman: under castle type doctrine.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. Ohio is actually a stand your ground state now. So it's maybe less relevant,
Jacob Paulsen: but yes, I think your point is valid and worth, worth pointing out.
Jacob Paulsen: I, I think another interesting thing here is,
Jacob Paulsen: I don't think we live in a world today where any of us listening to this,
Jacob Paulsen: any adult in America can avoid fully domestic issues.
Jacob Paulsen: Like all of us are probably related to somebody who's divorced.
Jacob Paulsen: Probably all of us know somebody who's got a stalker or some crazy ex boyfriend or girlfriend.
Jacob Paulsen: Like last week, last week we had an ex-husband hide out in a church parking lot.
Jacob Paulsen: I think this is in florida and
Jacob Paulsen: try and kidnap his child from his ex-wife when she showed up for church
Jacob Paulsen: and you know we had and two church security dudes came out with their guns and
Jacob Paulsen: stopped the whole thing and it worked out fine um first you know so to speak
Jacob Paulsen: no you know thwarted kidnapping
Jacob Paulsen: but my point is like it's just it's all around us right like the divorce rate's
Jacob Paulsen: really high mental health is a serious issue that you know that's that's rampant
Jacob Paulsen: everywhere people aren't getting the help they need and
Jacob Paulsen: people turning to violence is becoming more and more common as a solution to problems
Jacob Paulsen: so i just don't know that we can i mean yes like exercise good judgment don't
Jacob Paulsen: do stupid things with stupid people in stupid places but also
Jacob Paulsen: like recognize that any one of us could find ourselves in the middle of this
Jacob Paulsen: kind of a feud maybe not this specific but you know you just it's hard to avoid
Jacob Paulsen: these situations and we want to help out our friend our buddy,
Jacob Paulsen: our brother, sister-in-law, whoever it is,
Jacob Paulsen: and be there for them too.
Jacob Paulsen: So we need to be aware and understand.
Riley Bowman: I was just reminded of several years ago when I was awakened to something in
Riley Bowman: the morning by loud banging that I perceived in my head.
Riley Bowman: You know dreamy state as being somebody banging on my house or my door or my
Riley Bowman: window i didn't know what it was at the time it took me a few seconds to get
Riley Bowman: it sorted out and it was my next door neighbor's uh,
Riley Bowman: well i think it was his daughter who had a an ex lover you know an ex uh boyfriend girlfriend whatever,
Riley Bowman: uh i actually like daughter boyfriend anyway i don't know so yeah it was a someone
Riley Bowman: that it was a domestic situation and they came over to,
Riley Bowman: bash in the windows and headlights and taillights and, you know,
Riley Bowman: beat up her car basically. Right.
Riley Bowman: And, uh, yeah, that, that, that involved me.
Riley Bowman: It woke me up. It made me think that something bad was, I mean,
Riley Bowman: something bad was happening, but I thought it was to me, you know, to my household and,
Riley Bowman: um, that was somebody else's domestic situation so to your point um going now
Riley Bowman: to this one is out of i gotta get back to the right page here uh philadelphia pennsylvania.
Jacob Paulsen: This one yeah this one's got a fun little element
Riley Bowman: Doesn't it right so deadly royal farms shooting was self-defense so we're reporting
Riley Bowman: after the fact and saying something was self-defense according to the police
Riley Bowman: this happened so a Royal Farms convenience store. It was on a Sunday night.
Riley Bowman: And it says even the headline, bystander tampered with evidence.
Riley Bowman: And we're like, what? Like, that's just a,
Riley Bowman: little detail in a headline, you just don't really ever come across.
Riley Bowman: I mean, especially a bystander. So hard to know for sure what's going on here,
Riley Bowman: but the story is there's a 22-year-old man who pulls a firearm on a 21-year-old man.
Riley Bowman: The 21-year-old who is a licensed to carry individual draws his concealed firearm himself.
Riley Bowman: So, you know, guy pulls a gun on guy, other guy, good guy in this case,
Riley Bowman: pulls his firearm, shoots the aggressor, okay, who later dies from his injuries, okay.
Riley Bowman: So this is pretty cut and dry. And as far as from these limited details,
Riley Bowman: this is a very cut and dry use of self-defense, right?
Riley Bowman: But the interesting thing, and this is why I included it,
Riley Bowman: and really there's not much more details other than what I'm giving you right
Riley Bowman: here, but it then says the last paragraph of this story police report that immediately
Riley Bowman: after the shooting the man approached the 22 year old,
Riley Bowman: this is a sorry this is the bystander i believe.
Jacob Paulsen: A 50 something year old
Riley Bowman: Bystander yeah there we go and 45 45 year old there yep so this bystander okay
Riley Bowman: it's just sees this happen okay sees sees guy get,
Riley Bowman: assaulted by you know a guy with a gun guy shoots you know good guy shoots bad guy.
Riley Bowman: So this 45-year-old man approaches the 22-year-old man who's been shot,
Riley Bowman: begins filming and taking pictures of the victim.
Riley Bowman: He then approaches the victim's dropped firearm and kicks it underneath nearby trash cans.
Riley Bowman: And he apparently is charged or whatever with tampering with evidence.
Riley Bowman: So I don't know what to make of this.
Riley Bowman: I mean, kick the firearm to get it out of this bad guy's reach.
Riley Bowman: But I also came across another source, Jacob, that seemed to suggest that the
Riley Bowman: 45-year-old bystander was,
Riley Bowman: confronting the 20-year-old good guy that shot the 22-year-old,
Riley Bowman: suggesting that he shouldn't have shot the other guy kind of thing.
Riley Bowman: And he was trying to make it look better than it was as far as for the bad guy
Riley Bowman: in this case. I don't know. It was a little bit confusing to me.
Jacob Paulsen: I'd have to go read additional stories from the news source.
Jacob Paulsen: But my sense of the thing is that initially when this went down,
Jacob Paulsen: the officers had questions. They're like, wait a minute. You say you shot this
Jacob Paulsen: guy because he had a gun. We didn't find a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And then they go review the surveillance video. And they're like,
Jacob Paulsen: oh, he had a gun. Oh, wait, look, that guy just kicked the gun under the trash
Jacob Paulsen: bin. What the crap is going on here?
Jacob Paulsen: Like, we got to go get that guy. Like, that's how I interpret this as sort of
Jacob Paulsen: like initially there were some questions about it because there's no gun.
Jacob Paulsen: You say this guy had a gun. He has no gun. Like we can't find a gun. We didn't recover a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And then, you know, after the fact, reviewing the surveillance video,
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know if after a fact is an hour later or a day later,
Jacob Paulsen: but somehow they get their hands on the video and they review it.
Jacob Paulsen: They say, oh, no, no, no. Like it went down just like he said.
Jacob Paulsen: And now we've got to go arrest this dude for kicking a gun under a garbage can.
Jacob Paulsen: That's how I interpret this is that, you know, this is sort of up-age scoring.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. The news publications may say, hey, by the way, that shooting was self-defense.
Jacob Paulsen: And it turns out a bystander tampered with evidence.
Jacob Paulsen: So I think a couple of takeaways for me, one would be
Jacob Paulsen: Don't go kicking guns. You know, don't mess with evidence. Like you don't want
Jacob Paulsen: to be the guy who gets arrested for tampering with evidence because for whatever reason.
Jacob Paulsen: And, you know, does this guy try to make it look bad for the armed defender? Maybe.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe he's like, score. I'm going to come back in a couple hours and get me
Jacob Paulsen: a free gun. I'm going to kick over here in these trash bins.
Jacob Paulsen: And then after this all settles down, I'm going to come get me a free gun.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know. i don't know what he's thinking but don't be the guy who who does
Jacob Paulsen: that i'm reminded of course of an incident here from the town i live in in arvada
Jacob Paulsen: where a good guy with a gun shot a lunatic with a gun
Jacob Paulsen: put you know holstered his own gun walked over to the bad guy picked up his ar-15
Jacob Paulsen: and responding cops showed up and shot the good guy who was now holding an ar-15
Jacob Paulsen: so i think there's any number of reasons you just don't want to touch stuff
Jacob Paulsen: you just don't want to you know you don't want to involve yourself to that level
Jacob Paulsen: uh beyond what's necessary to make a scene safe and then you better be prepared
Jacob Paulsen: to articulate those things.
Jacob Paulsen: So I think that that's a factor. I think also, I think that you need to be prepared for situations or
Jacob Paulsen: The other thing I guess it makes me think of is we've debated at times kind
Jacob Paulsen: of the say nothing versus say everything approach when dealing with law enforcement.
Jacob Paulsen: Cops show up. They want a statement from you, what happened.
Jacob Paulsen: And a lot of people perpetuate the strategy of say nothing to the cops.
Jacob Paulsen: I want my attorney. I'm making no statement. That's it. Go away.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, if you had done this in this incident, if you'd been the guy at the gas
Jacob Paulsen: station, you said no statement from me. I want my attorney.
Jacob Paulsen: And they said, fine. They put you in handcuffs. They put you in the back of the squad car.
Jacob Paulsen: The coroner shows up, takes the body, puts in a body bag, hauls it off.
Jacob Paulsen: Two days later, your attorney finally says, yeah, we're ready to make a statement.
Jacob Paulsen: The attorney tells the cops what happened, and the cops are like,
Jacob Paulsen: God, there was no other gun at the crime scene. They go back to look for it, and it's long gone now.
Jacob Paulsen: Someone found it. The garbage man found it. Whatever happened,
Jacob Paulsen: it's gone. So that would be a scenario where this really maybe didn't play to your favor well.
Jacob Paulsen: Now, we obviously, I'm not advocating for the tell everything approach.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, this is what happened. This guy did the other. There's no attorney would
Jacob Paulsen: think that's a good idea.
Jacob Paulsen: But what we tend to find most of the biggest experts in self-defense would suggest
Jacob Paulsen: is that the ideal scenario is say a little bit approach. There's kind of this
Jacob Paulsen: balance between the two.
Jacob Paulsen: And maybe that's happened here.
Jacob Paulsen: If you said, listen, I was afraid for my life. Dude pointed a gun at me.
Jacob Paulsen: And so I took some action. I'd like to consult with an attorney before I make
Jacob Paulsen: any more statements. but the gun should be over there, like go retrieve it,
Jacob Paulsen: like pointing out potential evidence and witnesses. Oh, and that guy over there,
Jacob Paulsen: he saw everything. In fact, he had his phone out and he was filming.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, you know, the gas station has cameras. Like, you're pointing out evidence,
Jacob Paulsen: pointing out witnesses is definitely in your favor. And in this case,
Jacob Paulsen: it might have been the difference maker.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Good stuff. Let's go now to Park City, Utah. This is kind of a fun one.
Riley Bowman: Park City resident who held suspect at gunpoint speaks out, according to the story from KSL TV.
Riley Bowman: Do you want to tell us one?
Jacob Paulsen: Sure, yeah. So what you got is this crazy lunatic with scissors.
Jacob Paulsen: We're back to more scissors, attackers. I don't know what's going on.
Riley Bowman: It's crazy. I've never seen that before, especially in one episode.
Jacob Paulsen: I think we should start requiring background checks for scissors.
Jacob Paulsen: I just don't think that these should be publicly available for sale i mean they're
Jacob Paulsen: just clearly too deadly too dangerous so
Jacob Paulsen: guys running around some apartments canyon creek apartments in park city uh
Jacob Paulsen: there are no crappy apartments in park city utah so you know these are probably
Jacob Paulsen: some nice apartments and so he's running around with his scissors and uh the
Jacob Paulsen: cops are chasing him and they hit him with some bean bag rounds during the chase
Jacob Paulsen: okay so he's been hit with some bean backgrounds, but he swings down from some
Jacob Paulsen: third floor balcony, it says, onto a second floor apartment.
Jacob Paulsen: And you got this guy, the good guy, he wakes up. He's like, what is going on? There's all this drama.
Jacob Paulsen: And he finds our now semi-bleeding criminal in his apartment.
Jacob Paulsen: He's like, oh my gosh, this is bloody dude in my apartment.
Jacob Paulsen: I hear sirens out there. This ain't good.
Jacob Paulsen: Now something very specific is it says that let me get the exact words
Jacob Paulsen: This is important let me get the words okay okay
Jacob Paulsen: Uh, something about, I want to see how he got the gun.
Jacob Paulsen: Okay. He says, I jump up, I come out of the bathroom. There's a guy bleeding in my kitchen.
Jacob Paulsen: The, um, the man wouldn't respond, but he started pacing and opening doors.
Jacob Paulsen: Quote, good guy reached for a gun. He had hidden in his living room.
Jacob Paulsen: That's what I was looking for.
Jacob Paulsen: So I got a gun hidden in my living room. Oh, there I'm going to,
Jacob Paulsen: oh, this guy's acting like a lunatic. He's bleeding. He's trying to open all
Jacob Paulsen: my doors, run and grab my gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And then we start giving this guy commands. We basically tell him to get on
Jacob Paulsen: the floor and stay there.
Jacob Paulsen: Get on the floor, whatever, don't move kind of thing. Now this dude who's going
Jacob Paulsen: bonkers in the head trying to open doors, which can't be that hard from the
Jacob Paulsen: inside, frankly, like unlock it, bro.
Jacob Paulsen: So this guy is probably not all right in his head, but he does comply with the
Jacob Paulsen: orders. He gets on the ground.
Jacob Paulsen: Then there's a knock at the door. The good guy, you know, while maintaining
Jacob Paulsen: gun on bad guy, goes, opens doors, it's sheriff deputies, and he's like,
Jacob Paulsen: yeah, the guy's in here, come get him.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, so they arrest him at that point. I picked up on, you know,
Riley Bowman: many of the same things you did, Jacob, and also, you know,
Riley Bowman: thought it was really interesting that the good guy here says that he initially
Riley Bowman: grabs his gun, points it at the man, tells him to get on the ground and stay there.
Riley Bowman: And then he the guy is not really listening or complying fully so then it says
Riley Bowman: he racks the gun yeah and the man finally is like okay uh yeah so you know yeah um,
Riley Bowman: This is the same category as someone saying, well, I'm just going to pump the
Riley Bowman: shotgun and that's going to be the clue to the bad guy to make sure they get
Riley Bowman: out or comply or whatever.
Riley Bowman: I wouldn't count on that being a valid tactic.
Jacob Paulsen: But it worked this time. Here's an example of it working. Make the gun noise
Jacob Paulsen: from the movies and the bad guy will pay attention now and be like,
Jacob Paulsen: oh, you have a gun. Crap. All right. I'll get down.
Riley Bowman: Right. yeah so interesting little detail there again i'd advise caution with
Riley Bowman: such tactics but uh generally not advised but hey.
Jacob Paulsen: It worked well we generally don't advise hiding guns in your living room we
Jacob Paulsen: also don't generally advise
Jacob Paulsen: having a gun staged that has no round in the chamber so you know there's a lot
Jacob Paulsen: of things here that is sort of like yeah maybe not ideal but um it worked out
Jacob Paulsen: in this set of circumstances
Riley Bowman: Yeah it's just kind of a fun story i mean i say fun i mean obviously i don't
Riley Bowman: like to make light of things but it's yes unique in its details for sure and it kind of just you know,
Riley Bowman: we we've been doing this how long now jacob long time a lot of years a lot of
Riley Bowman: stories we've talked about the podcast and you just still come across ones that,
Riley Bowman: it just never ceases to surprise me,
Riley Bowman: daytona beach florida this one is uh quite quite a a story fatal shooting under
Riley Bowman: investigation in Daytona Beach, it says here from police. Um.
Riley Bowman: A shooting that left one dead and two others injured in the early morning on
Riley Bowman: Sunday is under investigation, it says. This is how it starts.
Riley Bowman: But initially it says police responded to a local hospital after receiving reports
Riley Bowman: of a patient suffering from a gunshot wound.
Riley Bowman: So apparently that's the first report they got. I don't know.
Riley Bowman: Seems a little strange to me. but investigators said an adult male and an adult
Riley Bowman: female had met at the park when they were approached by a male they did not know.
Riley Bowman: A disagreement ensued, okay, during which the unknown individual allegedly brandished a firearm.
Riley Bowman: That's when police say the male victim attained his own firearm and demanded
Riley Bowman: the bad guy in this case, presumably, to leave the area.
Riley Bowman: The unknown male began walking away, but then turned and fired multiple rounds,
Riley Bowman: striking the male victim.
Riley Bowman: The male victim returned fire, striking the bad guy.
Riley Bowman: And then it says police said the injured male and female drove themselves to
Riley Bowman: the local hospital for treatment.
Riley Bowman: So I guess the thing here is, you know, when I said it's interesting that police
Riley Bowman: initially respond to report of a man, injured man or whatever at a hospital,
Riley Bowman: kind of interesting to me.
Riley Bowman: Um maybe they called on their way and that's just where they ended up meeting police but uh,
Riley Bowman: this kind of interesting uh story here and the interesting detail there is the
Riley Bowman: fact that you know there's this whatever this disagreement is happens and the
Riley Bowman: guy you know bad guy pulls out a gun,
Riley Bowman: and a good guy pulls out his gun bad guy starts walking away,
Riley Bowman: but then turns on fire so Well, it's just that, hey,
Riley Bowman: be ready.
Riley Bowman: And that things can happen really fast.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of escalation, right? Like if you're the concealed
Jacob Paulsen: carrier, you're meeting a girl at the park, you know.
Jacob Paulsen: You're an adult, so, you know, this is not some, like, awkward teenager thing.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, you know, maybe you're going for a walk. We don't know if it's romantic,
Jacob Paulsen: I guess. But anyway, you're meeting the woman at a park, and you're chilling,
Jacob Paulsen: hanging out. Dude approaches.
Jacob Paulsen: Some argument ensues. We don't know what the escalation was here.
Jacob Paulsen: But probably, probably it was two-sided, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Your mama's ugly. No, your mama's ugly. I mean, I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know what was said. But an argument ensued, and maybe you're thinking
Jacob Paulsen: to yourself, I'm a concealed carrier. I got a gun on me right now.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm not afraid to get in an argument with somebody because I'm good. I can defend myself.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm not afraid of this dude. I got a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And then all of a sudden, this dude who you're in a disagreement with,
Jacob Paulsen: he draws his gun. And you're like, oh, snap.
Jacob Paulsen: Crap. It sounds like we both got guns. And so then you decide you got to draw
Jacob Paulsen: yours. So you match the level of force. There's no de-escalation happening here.
Jacob Paulsen: You match the level of force. Tell this dude to get lost or you're going to
Jacob Paulsen: shoot him. And he says, he'll shoot you. And you say, you'll shoot him.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's this little back and forth, little pissing match.
Jacob Paulsen: And eventually the uh the bad guys you know supposedly and i'm using that that
Jacob Paulsen: word kind of loosely but he's about to turn into the clear bad guy here in a minute
Jacob Paulsen: but eventually he he does say okay fine i'm out of here and he starts walking
Jacob Paulsen: away and then he becomes the clear bad guy when he turns you know kind of turns
Jacob Paulsen: and sends a couple pop shots off like screw you pop pop kind of thing now
Jacob Paulsen: you the concealed carrier if you're this guy in the story guess what you just got shot
Jacob Paulsen: Like maybe when this is all said and done you'll be able to say hey what i did
Jacob Paulsen: with ethical or what i did was legal no one's arrested me i'm not getting charged
Jacob Paulsen: but you know what you're not gonna be able to say i you know
Jacob Paulsen: i i did you know i everything i did was great and i avoided getting shot because
Jacob Paulsen: you've been shot now and you know you could die like you know like that's like
Jacob Paulsen: that's the takeaway for me is it's like you know what maybe maybe if we'd not
Jacob Paulsen: looked at this as i'm invincible.
Jacob Paulsen: I got a gun. I can argue. I can fight with this guy.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't want to look weak in front of this woman maybe.
Jacob Paulsen: Then maybe we wouldn't have gotten in a situation where we got shot.
Jacob Paulsen: And being shot is not awesome. And maybe you survive it. Maybe you don't.
Jacob Paulsen: Your odds are actually pretty good probably. But maybe we didn't need to get
Jacob Paulsen: shot in all this. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm filling in the gaps here of the story with my own narrative.
Jacob Paulsen: But I think that there's some lesson to be learned there about our ego and about
Jacob Paulsen: learning to de-escalate, not escalate things to the point we both got to draw our guns now.
Jacob Paulsen: I think there's the other takeaway for me, by the way, is the use of cover.
Jacob Paulsen: Like if I'm in a pissy match with the guns and the other guy's got a gun and
Jacob Paulsen: he starts to walk away, I'm not going to keep standing in the open.
Jacob Paulsen: Like I'm going to be thinking like if this, like we need to move,
Jacob Paulsen: like we need to get out of here too. I wouldn't be standing like I won the high
Jacob Paulsen: ground, that dude's leaving.
Jacob Paulsen: I'd be like, nah, like let's roll too. Like that dude's going that way, let's go this way.
Jacob Paulsen: I'd be creating distance. I'd be thinking what can we put between us and him.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah. And again, the key here is,
Riley Bowman: you're just kind of presenting these theoretical stories, these possible stories.
Riley Bowman: It's not about so much what actually happened here as it is.
Riley Bowman: What are some of the lessons we can take from this? What are the things that
Riley Bowman: we can use to think a little bit more about it?
Riley Bowman: Well, if I found myself in a similar situation, how would I respond?
Riley Bowman: How would I react? What are the choices I would make? And so on.
Riley Bowman: Now, I had a thought, Jacob, that maybe explains the story for us a little bit
Riley Bowman: better. Okay. So this is just a theory, but I know what's going on here.
Riley Bowman: This is a dude that meeting, meeting
Riley Bowman: up with a prostitute and the guy that shows up is, is there a pimp?
Riley Bowman: And then it all makes sense.
Riley Bowman: Like, Oh, okay. That's what went on anyway. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, that's not out of the question at all. Yeah. And we don't know.
Riley Bowman: Final story. All right. This is a follow-up to the, you know,
Riley Bowman: I remember this one. I remember, I think there was maybe even some surveillance video with this.
Riley Bowman: And I remember talking about it and saying, yeah, you know, like got to be careful
Riley Bowman: when you start chasing people out of your stores.
Riley Bowman: Okay. So this is a story out of Columbia, South Carolina involving Chike Rick
Riley Bowman: Chow, who's 61. He's an Asian.
Riley Bowman: He was the owner of a convenience store. He was working there, I think, with his son.
Riley Bowman: But basically, this 14-year-old boy came in and attempted to rob them or shop,
Riley Bowman: or he stole some stuff. He wasn't robbing necessarily, if I recall,
Riley Bowman: but he stole some things. He was observed.
Riley Bowman: They went to stop him.
Riley Bowman: And in the course of trying to stop him, uh i think that uh,
Riley Bowman: the the suspect actually then points a gun at him so i think it was started
Riley Bowman: as a i'm just stealing some stuff to you know we tried to stop him and chase
Riley Bowman: after him and the in the 14 year old kid points a gun at him at that point he shoots.
Riley Bowman: Uh and i think the actual shooting took place outside or just out in front of the store itself,
Riley Bowman: and so it's kind of you know you talk about escalation jacob it's sort of a
Riley Bowman: you know there's probably a couple ways this could have played out like one would have been,
Riley Bowman: you could have just let the kid go and you steal some stuff and uh you know
Riley Bowman: you're you're out some some inventory and that's that's lame you know nobody likes that,
Riley Bowman: but uh you know you live to see another day and everything goes on you know
Riley Bowman: life goes on kind of thing um,
Riley Bowman: but in this case you know it basically escalated from the theft of some goods
Riley Bowman: to now we're engaging in a shootout in front of the store,
Riley Bowman: and because of i think the fact that this that mr chow sort of chased after
Riley Bowman: this 14 year old kid regardless if the kid was armed which by the way i mean.
Riley Bowman: Hey, kid was armed and pointed a gun at you.
Riley Bowman: I'd probably do the same thing if I was faced with that.
Riley Bowman: However, the critical decision point here was Chow elected to pursue and chase
Riley Bowman: after this boy instead of just once he's out of the store, let him be,
Riley Bowman: you know, kind of thing, right?
Riley Bowman: And this whole thing became a whole, you know, it got all very political and
Riley Bowman: local protesters got involved and all this stuff, right?
Riley Bowman: But Chow got arrested and he got charged and he's been held in jail since he was arrested.
Riley Bowman: So he didn't get out on bail or anything like that.
Riley Bowman: And he's gone through and it's been like three years, three plus years.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, basically three years that this case has been going on.
Riley Bowman: And the end result is Chow is acquitted.
Riley Bowman: Okay? Jury found his actions to be reasonable.
Riley Bowman: All right? Or at least they couldn't find enough to convict,
Riley Bowman: right? Either way, so, like, the way this ends is, okay, good guy wins. Good guy saves the day.
Riley Bowman: However, he just lost three years of his life.
Riley Bowman: And he's probably lost his store. He's lost a lot of money trying to defend
Riley Bowman: himself, right? And, yes, and to your point, Jacob, now there's a civil lawsuit
Riley Bowman: that's about to take place. right?
Riley Bowman: Even if, even if you do what is right, it doesn't mean that there won't still be consequences.
Riley Bowman: It doesn't mean that the process itself, the legal process won't be punishment enough.
Riley Bowman: Like there is still punishment that can be had in the process of everything.
Riley Bowman: And it might just give us pause to think first before we get involved in certain
Riley Bowman: things. So there you go. That's my take and my analysis. So let's hear yours, Jacob.
Jacob Paulsen: I think for the sake of our listeners, the legal linchpin in this story is whether or not
Jacob Paulsen: the armed robber, as he's running away, does or does not turn and point his gun at Mr. Chow. Sure.
Jacob Paulsen: That's the legal linchpin. And so in the closing arguments, the prosecutor pointed
Jacob Paulsen: out that the only witness who claims to have seen this gun get pointed at Mr. Chow is Mr. Chow.
Jacob Paulsen: All the other witnesses could not confirm that at any time the gun was pointed
Jacob Paulsen: at anybody as the armed robber was running away.
Jacob Paulsen: It's worth noting, by the way, that the shooting took place 130 plus yards from the store.
Jacob Paulsen: So how far did Mr. Chow chase the guy?
Riley Bowman: Yeah. More than a football field. I just read that again and it was like, oh, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. Like a full football field plus both end zones still it'd be further than that.
Jacob Paulsen: That's how far our store owner chased the armed robber.
Jacob Paulsen: Now there seems to be no question like we're not disputing the fact that the
Jacob Paulsen: armed robber did point his gun at Mr. Chow and Mr. Chow's son when he was in the convenience store.
Jacob Paulsen: But as he ran away and Mr. Chow gives chase for more than an entire football field, plus some,
Jacob Paulsen: that's the legal linchpin is if at that point, did the gun get,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, the bad guy's gun, the armed robber's gun get turned and pointed back at Mr. Chow or not?
Jacob Paulsen: And all the other witnesses said, no, we didn't see that. Mr.
Jacob Paulsen: Chow said, yeah, he pointed the gun at me and that's when I shot him.
Jacob Paulsen: So that's the legal linchpin in case you're like, well, like,
Jacob Paulsen: why was he arrested? Like what's the debate here?
Jacob Paulsen: That's the thing. Like that becomes the question because from a legal perspective,
Jacob Paulsen: obviously, yeah, if I'm chasing the dude and he turns and points a gun at me,
Jacob Paulsen: we just got done reading a story about a guy who turned and pointed a gun and
Jacob Paulsen: shot at somebody, right?
Jacob Paulsen: So, yeah, like if someone turns the points a gun at you, now you have imminent
Jacob Paulsen: Danger and all of a sudden your justification legally, it might be there.
Jacob Paulsen: But if the dude's running away and in fact there's even witnesses who suggest
Jacob Paulsen: that he had dropped the gun that he didn't even have it in his hands at the point he got shot
Jacob Paulsen: then now we lose any potential legal argument of imminent danger
Jacob Paulsen: and so that's the linchpin here and that's you know that's where the debate
Jacob Paulsen: is in the community hey you gunned down a man you know who wasn't trying to
Jacob Paulsen: hurt you versus oh no you you know this guy was a bad guy who's going to shoot
Jacob Paulsen: you so you You shot him first.
Jacob Paulsen: That's the wavering thing here. And in a criminal case, right,
Jacob Paulsen: reasonable beyond or guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is the threshold.
Jacob Paulsen: So the jury couldn't get there. The jury couldn't beyond a reasonable doubt
Jacob Paulsen: say that this guy shot a man who wasn't threatening him.
Jacob Paulsen: But in a civil case, which he's about to go into now, right,
Jacob Paulsen: now he's being sued by the family of the guy who died because dead people sue
Jacob Paulsen: you, and if they don't, their family will, right?
Jacob Paulsen: So we have a wrongful death suit here.
Jacob Paulsen: The threshold is not beyond a reasonable doubt.
Jacob Paulsen: The threshold is 50%. Like, is it more or less likely than?
Jacob Paulsen: So now you have four or five witnesses who all get up and say,
Jacob Paulsen: we didn't see him point the gun at Mr. Chow.
Jacob Paulsen: And one of those witnesses says, in fact, I saw it on the ground. I think he dropped it.
Jacob Paulsen: All of a sudden, it's looking more likely than not that you're out,
Jacob Paulsen: whatever the liability of that is. And it could be millions and millions of dollars.
Jacob Paulsen: Your life could be absolutely ruined. So all of a sudden, chasing a guy,
Jacob Paulsen: a football field plus for justice because he pointed a gun at your son starts
Jacob Paulsen: to sound like a really bad idea.
Jacob Paulsen: And whether he was legally justified or not, it was definitely a really bad idea.
Riley Bowman: Had deadly force been used in defense of the initial confrontation in the store,
Riley Bowman: this would be a very different story it's the fact that,
Riley Bowman: like you just put it was sort of this personal pursuit of justice hey I've got
Riley Bowman: to make this right he took stuff from us he threatened us I,
Riley Bowman: can't let him get away And so you chase, and you chase, and you chase.
Riley Bowman: 130 plus yards, you chase.
Riley Bowman: And I mean, again, maybe the kid pointed the gun at you. Okay, all right.
Riley Bowman: But to your point, Jacob, the punishment can sometimes be the process itself.
Riley Bowman: And in this case, he survived the criminal part of the process,
Riley Bowman: the criminal defense piece.
Riley Bowman: There's a high probability he does not survive, especially financially, the civil piece of this.
Riley Bowman: So should give us all, you know, kind of pause to think about the actions that
Riley Bowman: we choose to make and where we place our values as far as like what is most important to me.
Riley Bowman: Okay is it exacting justice and ensuring somebody doesn't get away,
Riley Bowman: or is it making sure i i can live see another day outside of jail with my family
Riley Bowman: with my kids with my business with all the things i love and enjoy,
Riley Bowman: uh my retirement my savings everything i've you know worked for in my life is
Riley Bowman: it is like what is what matters most to me and i hope that that gives us all,
Riley Bowman: the opportunity to just pause and think.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Rough day. Rough three years and probably the next 10 and 20 years aren't going
Jacob Paulsen: to be very pleasant either.
Riley Bowman: Yep. This is a guy that's already, you know, he's in his 60s. And so...
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I mean, life is, it's hard to recover from such things when,
Riley Bowman: you know, you're already in a later, later half of your life for sure.
Riley Bowman: So anyway, well, there you go. That brings us to a conclusion of today's Justified Save stories.
Riley Bowman: Thank you for being here and joining us for this.
Riley Bowman: We remind you that today's episode is sponsored by CCW Safe,
Riley Bowman: ccwsafe.com. And of course, CCW Safe is, I mean, it's a perfect place to,
Riley Bowman: we just came, finished up on the heels of that story.
Riley Bowman: Mr. Chow out of South Carolina, CCW Safe would be right there to defend you
Riley Bowman: through the criminal trial as well as the civil one.
Riley Bowman: And that would be good to have somebody like CCW Safe at your back,
Riley Bowman: you know, taking care of things for you and advising you through the process.
Riley Bowman: We want to make sure you make the right decisions before you get to that point.
Riley Bowman: That's why we talked about that story, but also make sure you have something
Riley Bowman: like CCW Safe backing you up.
Riley Bowman: So check them out ccwsafe.com also today's episode is sponsored by hk so hk-usa.com
Riley Bowman: thank you hk and ccwsafe for sponsoring this episode,
Riley Bowman: jacob it's time to wrap it up thank you for being in here with me for this uh
Riley Bowman: another fine episode of the concealed carry podcast.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah thanks for uh thanks for having me all good
Riley Bowman: Yep uh guys until next time keep making good prudent safe moral sane decisions, all that.
Riley Bowman: And remember to train right, train often, and train safe so you can fight hard.
Jacob Paulsen: Fight fast, fight true.
Riley Bowman: Especially that last piece. All right, we'll see you guys.
Riley Bowman: A reminder that laws vary from place to place, and we encourage listeners to
Riley Bowman: seek local legal advice to understand applicable laws.
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