WEBVTT 00:00:15.459 --> 00:00:16.719 And welcome to the Concealed Carry 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:21.319 Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK. 00:00:22.299 --> 00:00:27.859 Today is Friday, April 10th, 2026, as of the recording of this episode. 00:00:29.017 --> 00:00:33.637 I am your host, Riley Bowman, and I'm joined today by this gentleman right here to my right. 00:00:34.097 --> 00:00:35.717 Co-host, Jacob Paulson. 00:00:36.017 --> 00:00:41.077 That dude. Yeah. That guy. Hey, by the way, folks, those of you joining us live, 00:00:41.277 --> 00:00:45.657 I appreciate you being here with us because today, and those of you who are 00:00:45.657 --> 00:00:49.417 not joining live, you'll probably recall this, but today, 00:00:49.737 --> 00:00:54.757 the Artemis II mission, the Orion capsule, 00:00:55.517 --> 00:01:00.257 lands in the ocean in like, I don't know, know an hour or two so that's kind of cool. 00:01:00.257 --> 00:01:03.477 Yeah that sounds cool jake 00:01:03.477 --> 00:01:04.497 Is like i had no idea. 00:01:04.497 --> 00:01:10.597 Didn't know didn't care i'm just being transparent here i can only have bandwidth 00:01:10.597 --> 00:01:14.757 for limited things and that we we sent some people up to replicate what was 00:01:14.757 --> 00:01:22.097 done 50 years ago i just did it's not capturing my imagination i'm sorry i 00:01:22.097 --> 00:01:27.777 Well i mean i i think it's interesting i think it's of note I think it's a bit 00:01:27.777 --> 00:01:30.377 of interesting good news of sorts. 00:01:30.577 --> 00:01:34.077 I mean, some people could debate how beneficial or whatever it is. 00:01:34.177 --> 00:01:41.397 But I think it's good news in a day when there's a lot of not so good news. So I think it's cool. 00:01:41.577 --> 00:01:44.617 It's good that these gentlemen are still alive. Yeah. It's good. 00:01:44.897 --> 00:01:48.897 I think I'd rather actually see my tax dollars spent on colonizing the moon 00:01:48.897 --> 00:01:53.197 than most other things my tax dollars are spent on. So there's that. 00:01:55.797 --> 00:01:58.057 Yeah so sorry sorry. 00:01:58.057 --> 00:01:59.737 For any negativity that was not my 00:01:59.737 --> 00:02:04.517 Intent no i mean it's just like whatever i i think it's cool so hey we sent 00:02:04.517 --> 00:02:10.157 dudes and one dudette around the uh the moon uh for the first time like you said you know what. 00:02:10.157 --> 00:02:14.017 When nasa starts buying ksg holsters and barrel blocks i'll care a lot 00:02:14.017 --> 00:02:19.437 Well we might need to make something to fit a space blaster. 00:02:20.537 --> 00:02:22.117 There's no Space Blasters yet, right? 00:02:22.177 --> 00:02:23.717 We don't know that for sure. 00:02:24.477 --> 00:02:27.157 Jeez. How do you dry fire a Space Blaster? 00:02:27.397 --> 00:02:30.257 There's a dry fire mode. Just switch, man. Just like, you know. 00:02:30.997 --> 00:02:35.117 Anyway. Okay. Well, anyway, thanks for being with us because I know probably 00:02:35.117 --> 00:02:39.677 a number of people might be distracted by other, you know, video feeds and TV 00:02:39.677 --> 00:02:43.897 episodes or whatever going on that's covering that. So thanks for being with us. 00:02:44.517 --> 00:02:46.717 Today, we're getting into Stand Your Ground. 00:02:48.137 --> 00:02:51.037 Several, several, several hundred episodes ago. 00:02:51.297 --> 00:02:56.977 One of the earlier episodes we ever did was about this specific topic. 00:02:57.177 --> 00:03:00.277 It was just called, I think, Stand Your Ground or something to that effect. 00:03:01.297 --> 00:03:05.097 And we're revisiting that today. Now, we talk about Stand Your Ground issues 00:03:05.097 --> 00:03:11.317 all the time, you know, in passing, if you will, or as part of an analysis of 00:03:11.317 --> 00:03:14.237 Justified Save stories, right? 00:03:14.237 --> 00:03:17.057 Sure, I suppose. Like that comes up regularly on the podcast. 00:03:17.317 --> 00:03:21.337 And so for three years, I mean, that's kind of our regular opportunity to, 00:03:21.597 --> 00:03:25.457 hey, you know, in this story out of Kentucky, this gentleman, 00:03:25.497 --> 00:03:28.657 you know, didn't abide by, you know. 00:03:28.897 --> 00:03:32.497 Yeah, I mean, it comes up less than other self-defense legal doctrines. 00:03:32.677 --> 00:03:38.357 Sure. In my opinion. Like, despite being kind of one of the more spoken to or 00:03:38.357 --> 00:03:45.117 about, has the most cool, like, sayings and cliche terms, but it's less applicable. 00:03:46.383 --> 00:03:48.423 Generally speaking, than other self-defense. 00:03:48.803 --> 00:03:52.703 Right, because it doesn't come into play as often as what you might think. 00:03:53.663 --> 00:03:59.003 But yet, here's the converse of that, kind of sort of an interesting contrast to what you just said, 00:03:59.003 --> 00:04:05.063 is that one of the most common comments I see on our social media posts about 00:04:05.063 --> 00:04:09.603 some defensive shooting somewhere or whatever is, 00:04:09.783 --> 00:04:10.963 Stand your ground! 00:04:11.263 --> 00:04:14.943 Yeah, no, it's a misunderstood thing, right? That's why this topic is important, 00:04:14.983 --> 00:04:16.983 even if it's not applied as often as we think. 00:04:17.303 --> 00:04:21.683 Because people don't understand. I think in general, American gun owners and 00:04:21.683 --> 00:04:22.783 concealed carriers don't understand it. 00:04:23.463 --> 00:04:30.943 They misapply it. We've seen some countless number of news stories misuse the 00:04:30.943 --> 00:04:33.523 Stand Your Ground legal doctrine or concept. 00:04:33.763 --> 00:04:40.723 We've seen judges misuse it in trials and then have those decisions be overturned because of it. 00:04:41.383 --> 00:04:45.083 So, yeah, it is definitely a screwed up thing. 00:04:45.283 --> 00:04:45.703 Yeah. 00:04:46.383 --> 00:04:47.383 Commonly messed up. 00:04:47.383 --> 00:04:51.563 Well, that's the point of today's episode is to help our listeners and viewers 00:04:51.563 --> 00:04:55.683 understand what Stand Your Ground actually is a bit better. 00:04:55.883 --> 00:05:00.463 So we're taking this opportunity to go back since the original Stand Your Ground 00:05:00.463 --> 00:05:05.983 episode that we did has fallen off the current podcast feed quite some time ago. 00:05:06.883 --> 00:05:11.323 We're taking this opportunity to revisit that in depth, talk about what it is, 00:05:11.403 --> 00:05:16.703 what it means, and give you some also examples of what it is, what it isn't. 00:05:16.703 --> 00:05:22.443 And when it has worked or when people have abided by the principles of Stand 00:05:22.443 --> 00:05:25.963 Your Ground versus not and the trouble that can lead to. 00:05:26.103 --> 00:05:31.123 And there's one particular case that is not that old of a case either that I 00:05:31.123 --> 00:05:34.103 think is probably worth getting into today. 00:05:34.103 --> 00:05:38.523 I think it's one of the better examples of this because it was plastered all 00:05:38.523 --> 00:05:42.543 around social media and the mainstream news cycle about Stand Your Ground, 00:05:42.623 --> 00:05:43.743 Stand Your Ground, Stand Your Ground. 00:05:43.923 --> 00:05:47.303 And, well, we'll get into that. So that's going to be your little tease. 00:05:47.563 --> 00:05:50.223 You got to stick around and see what it is exactly, what story we're going to 00:05:50.223 --> 00:05:51.763 talk about to cover that. 00:05:52.183 --> 00:05:55.583 Today's episode, though, is sponsored, brought to you by Guardian Nation. 00:05:56.573 --> 00:05:59.713 So guardian nation is uh well one of 00:05:59.713 --> 00:06:05.093 the best communities out there period for like-minded folks such as yourselves 00:06:05.093 --> 00:06:10.753 that want to know and understand and train and learn about self-defense and 00:06:10.753 --> 00:06:17.933 shooting and the law and all these kinds of things because well besides of our our annual, 00:06:18.653 --> 00:06:22.313 guardian conference that we put on in september we also 00:06:22.313 --> 00:06:25.313 have a lot of video content in the 00:06:25.313 --> 00:06:28.753 guardian University Library that Guardian 00:06:28.753 --> 00:06:33.633 Nation members get full and complete access to that this is where you're going 00:06:33.633 --> 00:06:37.633 to get a lot of that content in addition to the podcast and stuff but like one 00:06:37.633 --> 00:06:42.353 really great and this is it's the first thing we ever filmed as a video course 00:06:42.353 --> 00:06:45.553 and it's you know a decade old now at this point. 00:06:46.221 --> 00:06:52.201 But it's still good content. And I think we do a great job with the attorney, 00:06:52.441 --> 00:06:55.141 Doug Richards, in there talking about Stand Your Ground. 00:06:55.381 --> 00:06:58.921 And that is the American Gun Law video course. 00:06:59.501 --> 00:07:03.421 So that's in the Guardian University Library. 00:07:03.801 --> 00:07:04.001 Yes. 00:07:04.501 --> 00:07:07.921 So that's one thing that you could go and review if you haven't done that before. 00:07:08.421 --> 00:07:11.601 Of course, you can buy all of our video courses a la carte. But the best thing 00:07:11.601 --> 00:07:13.101 is to just join Guardian Nation. 00:07:13.621 --> 00:07:17.921 So you get full access to all the training content, our live events like Guardian 00:07:17.921 --> 00:07:23.801 Conference and access to our community of serious, like-minded self-defenders 00:07:24.201 --> 00:07:27.681 all throughout, you could say the world, but mostly obviously in the U.S. 00:07:27.761 --> 00:07:30.801 Yeah, yeah. I don't even know if you can join if you're not in the U.S. 00:07:30.821 --> 00:07:31.441 Anyway, it doesn't matter. 00:07:32.221 --> 00:07:36.701 I was just going to add that recently I've added a lot of new videos to the members of the area. 00:07:36.881 --> 00:07:38.781 So if you're listening to this and you are a Guardian issue member, 00:07:39.001 --> 00:07:42.701 you might want to go log in and you click on Guardian University or in the main 00:07:42.701 --> 00:07:45.661 menu, You can just click on, it says like read, watch, listen. 00:07:45.821 --> 00:07:47.701 You can click on watch and then all videos. 00:07:47.921 --> 00:07:51.901 And there's a kind of a carousel there of just member-only videos. 00:07:52.241 --> 00:07:55.521 And that's probably the fastest way to get to that content. But some really, 00:07:55.581 --> 00:08:02.141 you know, 8 to 15-minute length training videos from recent events and conferences from last year. 00:08:02.321 --> 00:08:04.641 And there's one in there I uploaded recently from Daryl Bulkey, 00:08:04.801 --> 00:08:07.581 another one from Brian Eastridge, or excuse me, Wayne Dobbs I'm thinking of 00:08:07.581 --> 00:08:10.921 more recently. There's one from Daryl Bulkey. That's some time ago. 00:08:11.441 --> 00:08:15.321 And then Brian Eastridge this week as well. I'm getting ready to add one from Justin Dial. 00:08:16.081 --> 00:08:20.241 So the point is we're always adding kind of these one-off videos as well, 00:08:20.341 --> 00:08:22.521 above and beyond the full-length video courses. 00:08:23.778 --> 00:08:27.158 Hey, you know, there's one other thing, too, I think we ought to talk about right now. 00:08:27.338 --> 00:08:30.278 And I'm going to use this opportunity before we get to our other sponsor message 00:08:30.278 --> 00:08:35.498 to go into our new segment that has no name. 00:08:37.538 --> 00:08:38.058 What's that? 00:08:38.298 --> 00:08:39.338 The no name segment. 00:08:39.438 --> 00:08:44.638 The no name segment now. Yeah. Of, you know, what's new? What's going on? 00:08:45.178 --> 00:08:47.918 What's the latest from us here at concealedcarry.com? 00:08:48.578 --> 00:08:52.898 And so let's jump into that real quick. And what it was is I thought it'd be 00:08:52.898 --> 00:08:56.818 good for us to, since we're talking about Guardian Nation, and you get access 00:08:56.818 --> 00:08:59.938 to a dashboard with, you know, all these resources available to you, 00:09:00.098 --> 00:09:02.878 including product discounts from industry partners of ours. 00:09:03.118 --> 00:09:07.498 And, of course, you know, being able to get to the video content for the entire training library. 00:09:07.798 --> 00:09:11.858 But, Jacob, we just, I say we, but really you, just did a bunch of work this 00:09:11.858 --> 00:09:16.878 week to make that member's dashboard a lot better, a lot cleaner, and easier to use. 00:09:16.878 --> 00:09:21.118 Yeah, and I'm not done. But yeah, when you go to consolecare.com, 00:09:21.218 --> 00:09:25.978 up at the top corner it says user dashboard slash login. You click on that. It logs you in. 00:09:26.198 --> 00:09:28.818 The URL is consolecare.com forward slash my dash account. 00:09:29.458 --> 00:09:33.658 And that dashboard, that first page you see when you land there is way better. 00:09:33.818 --> 00:09:35.058 It's just a massive improvement. 00:09:35.238 --> 00:09:38.358 It's so much easier for you to see at a glance if you have any store credit, 00:09:38.498 --> 00:09:41.998 Guardian Gold, courses that you have in progress that you haven't finished. 00:09:42.218 --> 00:09:44.058 You can see recent orders and their status. 00:09:44.798 --> 00:09:48.198 We've also done a little bit of upgrading to a tool that I don't know if we've 00:09:48.198 --> 00:09:50.918 ever mentioned on this podcast ever, but we've had it since like 2015. 00:09:51.618 --> 00:09:55.198 And that is that on our site, you can track your concealed carry permits and 00:09:55.198 --> 00:09:56.178 their expiration dates. 00:09:56.808 --> 00:09:59.468 I have multiple permits. Most of you listed this probably only have one. 00:09:59.668 --> 00:10:02.928 But on that user dashboard, you can click on my permits, and you can put in 00:10:02.928 --> 00:10:05.528 what's your resident state and the expiration date on your permit. 00:10:05.728 --> 00:10:10.268 And it's not our intent to invade your privacy. This is optional. You don't have to do it. 00:10:10.408 --> 00:10:14.188 But if you do, then you'll receive an e-mail from us at 120 days prior to the 00:10:14.188 --> 00:10:17.648 expiration date and at 60 days prior to that expiration date to just give you 00:10:17.648 --> 00:10:19.168 a reminder to renew your permit. 00:10:19.528 --> 00:10:22.728 And some of you live in states where the government might actually remind you. 00:10:22.868 --> 00:10:25.968 Me and Riley live in a state where you get no reminder at all. 00:10:25.968 --> 00:10:29.928 It's completely on your own and so getting an email from us might be useful 00:10:29.928 --> 00:10:36.948 Yeah so really cool uh new update to that dashboard yep yeah so and it really 00:10:36.948 --> 00:10:39.888 that dashboard's improved not just for guardian nation members but you know 00:10:39.888 --> 00:10:41.708 right everybody has access to that dashboard yeah yeah. 00:10:42.108 --> 00:10:44.368 But we're gonna make some other improvements along those lines here yeah 00:10:44.368 --> 00:10:49.768 Super cool so that's probably the latest greatest uh news from us here until 00:10:49.768 --> 00:10:54.228 carry.com uh those that are guardian nation members uh happy to report that 00:10:54.228 --> 00:11:01.488 your most recent guardian nation box of gear is uh in the process of being boxed 00:11:01.488 --> 00:11:03.128 up right now as we speak we. 00:11:03.128 --> 00:11:05.508 Have a couple hundred of them i think exactly 200 done today 00:11:05.508 --> 00:11:06.548 And uh yeah. 00:11:06.548 --> 00:11:08.268 It's it's a whole project but it's 00:11:08.268 --> 00:11:11.048 Coming yeah so a couple more days and we'll get the rest of those all 00:11:11.048 --> 00:11:14.648 boxed up and and shipped out to you members so 00:11:14.648 --> 00:11:17.788 uh be looking for those in your mailboxes right quick 00:11:17.788 --> 00:11:21.328 very very very soon yep so very excited about that let's get 00:11:21.328 --> 00:11:24.868 back to sponsor messages so by the way if i didn't mention the link but in case 00:11:24.868 --> 00:11:27.768 you don't know of course you can always go to concealed carry.com and find this 00:11:27.768 --> 00:11:32.488 information but you can also go directly to guardian nation.com to learn more 00:11:32.488 --> 00:11:36.548 about what guardian nation is why you might want to join and also be able to 00:11:36.548 --> 00:11:38.468 join right there from that page, 00:11:39.632 --> 00:11:43.912 Our other episode sponsor is CCW Safe. So we're going to be talking about a 00:11:43.912 --> 00:11:46.832 major legal doctrine today, Stand Your Ground. 00:11:47.192 --> 00:11:50.732 And, I mean, we're talking about legal things. People get in trouble. 00:11:51.492 --> 00:11:54.812 And sometimes not necessarily in trouble because they did something wrong. 00:11:54.932 --> 00:11:59.252 That's the way it goes frequently with self-defense shootings. 00:12:00.412 --> 00:12:03.792 And I would say particularly those that take place outside of the home, 00:12:03.952 --> 00:12:10.272 which is really where Stand Your Ground most often gets applied when it does get applied. right. 00:12:10.752 --> 00:12:11.992 It's always the only place it gets 00:12:11.992 --> 00:12:16.892 Played well yeah I mean yeah I guess there's a case that you could you could make about, 00:12:17.909 --> 00:12:21.669 inside the home also being, well, when we get into talking about Stand Your 00:12:21.669 --> 00:12:23.089 Ground, this all makes sense. 00:12:23.369 --> 00:12:28.289 But anyway, CCW Safe, you're going to want good, solid legal defense coverage. 00:12:28.629 --> 00:12:30.729 I mean, what are you going to do about all those legal costs? 00:12:30.809 --> 00:12:31.969 How are you going to hire an attorney? 00:12:32.789 --> 00:12:36.569 You know, where's that going to come from? I don't know if you got just a reserve 00:12:36.569 --> 00:12:40.709 cash fund sitting there ready for that kind of thing. I hope you do. 00:12:40.909 --> 00:12:45.849 But even then, there are some of these cases, including some that we might even 00:12:45.849 --> 00:12:49.929 talk about today, where you would exhaust, unless you're very, 00:12:50.049 --> 00:12:52.369 very wealthy, you would exhaust your savings. 00:12:52.649 --> 00:12:57.449 You would exhaust your investment accounts. You would just blow through money 00:12:57.449 --> 00:12:58.649 trying to defend yourself. 00:12:58.989 --> 00:13:04.569 And so that's why you want a good legal team. And I mean a team, not just an attorney. 00:13:04.769 --> 00:13:08.549 And yes, attorneys put together teams. But really the best thing I think about 00:13:08.549 --> 00:13:18.969 CCW Safe, Jacob, is that they really, they pride themselves on creating their own legal team. 00:13:19.189 --> 00:13:25.129 They are really there as a resource to whichever attorney or attorney's office 00:13:25.129 --> 00:13:27.149 gets hired to take on your case. 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:28.429 Yes, that's what I'll just say. 00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:31.769 And they are right there with multiple experts, 00:13:31.769 --> 00:13:34.529 including people who have been through shootings themselves, 00:13:34.529 --> 00:13:40.229 People have defended cases directly, including some very high profile ones that 00:13:40.229 --> 00:13:45.849 are essentially consultants and expert, well, 00:13:45.949 --> 00:13:46.909 yeah, not witnesses, 00:13:47.109 --> 00:13:49.209 but what's the term? 00:13:49.929 --> 00:13:53.309 Well, they have two consultants, but they also do have expert witnesses for various topics. 00:13:53.329 --> 00:13:55.969 Yeah, sure. Expert witnesses. I was just thinking like just experts. 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:02.129 I mean, that are able to be a resource to your legal team. So they become a 00:14:02.129 --> 00:14:04.189 part of that team that's going to work with good defense. 00:14:04.189 --> 00:14:06.649 Yeah, so they call it the critical response team. Exactly. Yeah, 00:14:06.709 --> 00:14:11.149 on that team, there are former prosecutors, former homicide investigators, detectives. Yeah. 00:14:11.469 --> 00:14:15.669 I mean, all types. And it's full court press for them. 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.039 So it is a huge benefit, I think, of membership is that this team stands behind 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.919 you when you are a CCWSAFE member. So consider joining today. 00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:28.899 I hope that this episode today will encourage you to do so if you haven't already. 00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:33.739 So go to CCWSAFE.com to learn more about their coverage plans. 00:14:34.179 --> 00:14:38.199 And just a little note that Guardian Nation members get a discount. 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:39.479 Yes, sir. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.219 So that's one of those discounts that we mentioned earlier. Let's jump into 00:14:43.219 --> 00:14:46.459 it. All right, Jacob, stand your ground. 00:14:47.319 --> 00:14:52.719 And again, we kind of in the intro talked about how it is, stand your ground 00:14:52.719 --> 00:14:59.459 becomes, is a legal doctrine that's used far less than people probably expect. 00:15:00.319 --> 00:15:03.919 It exists. It's an important thing. I think it's good that we have, 00:15:04.099 --> 00:15:07.379 not every state, by the way, is a stand your ground state. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.599 That should be clear. And that's something we can, we could start, 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:11.859 you know, here pretty early on in explaining. 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.839 But it exists, and I think it exists for a good purpose. But it doesn't come 00:15:18.839 --> 00:15:21.439 into play as often as people think, and there's reasons for that. 00:15:21.619 --> 00:15:23.979 So where should we start? Defining it? 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:27.859 Talking about states that are or are not stand-your-ground states? 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:28.599 Or where do you want to go? 00:15:28.739 --> 00:15:33.419 So I think we need to address it or kind of put it in a reference and context, 00:15:33.619 --> 00:15:34.559 and then we can define it. 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:39.379 But stand-your-ground is a reference to the opposite. it. 00:15:39.459 --> 00:15:43.499 It is the antonym to duty to retreat. 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:47.439 So I think that's where we have to start is understanding duty to retreat versus stand your ground. 00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:52.679 And these terms have become popularized because this happens to be a self-defense 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:57.879 requirement, here's the context, that is not universally true across the entire country. 00:15:58.119 --> 00:16:01.739 And so because of that, we've come up with these terms that we use to describe 00:16:01.739 --> 00:16:04.819 states that are or are not this way or that way. 00:16:05.319 --> 00:16:08.719 So I'm going to take it up a level now then I'll come back down. 00:16:09.817 --> 00:16:16.277 In order for you to claim self-defense, it is a method to justify an otherwise illegal act, right? 00:16:16.377 --> 00:16:20.597 So if you use force against somebody, you punch someone, you put them in a chokehold, 00:16:20.677 --> 00:16:23.337 you shoot them, stab them, tie them to a chair. 00:16:23.557 --> 00:16:27.177 Like if you use some sort of use of force against another human, 00:16:27.397 --> 00:16:31.237 that's a criminal act. Like we don't like that, we decided in our society. 00:16:31.737 --> 00:16:36.397 But there are some circumstances that we deem to be exceptions where it's justified. 00:16:36.817 --> 00:16:40.277 It's a justified use of force, which is how many statutes in a lot of states 00:16:40.277 --> 00:16:41.977 label this, a justified force. 00:16:42.337 --> 00:16:47.917 So one of those exceptions, one of the situations where we deem use of force 00:16:47.917 --> 00:16:50.877 against another person to be justified is self-defense. 00:16:51.077 --> 00:16:53.737 Oh, you had to do it to defend yourself or another innocent party. 00:16:54.177 --> 00:16:56.677 But we can't just take you at your word. You can't just say, 00:16:56.757 --> 00:16:59.957 well, it was self-defense. There's got to be some objective criteria we use 00:16:59.957 --> 00:17:01.417 to decide if something was self-defense. 00:17:01.697 --> 00:17:05.617 And so there's these requirements or elements, whatever term you prefer. 00:17:05.617 --> 00:17:14.117 And this particular one, this idea of duty to retreat, is one of those requirements in some states. 00:17:14.317 --> 00:17:19.997 So I think that's the high-level context that allows us to get to it and then 00:17:19.997 --> 00:17:21.337 define it or flush it out. 00:17:22.222 --> 00:17:29.182 That's good context. So just to kind of recap that there are certain states 00:17:29.182 --> 00:17:37.062 where before you may use justifiable defense, particularly deadly force, 00:17:37.842 --> 00:17:44.362 you know, defensive force, you need to meet the standard of retreating. 00:17:44.462 --> 00:17:44.882 Yes. 00:17:45.042 --> 00:17:46.402 Or at least making the effort to retreat. 00:17:46.682 --> 00:17:50.702 Yeah. When safely able is the way I like to phrase this. So I would think of 00:17:50.702 --> 00:17:54.622 it this way. Like our self-defense laws in this country are based on English common law. 00:17:54.902 --> 00:17:55.062 Yep. 00:17:55.342 --> 00:17:56.062 Right? So if you go way. 00:17:56.062 --> 00:17:58.362 We're talking about stuff that goes way back to like Magna Carta. 00:17:58.462 --> 00:18:02.042 Think like castles and moats and stuff, right? 00:18:02.382 --> 00:18:06.442 Yep. So I think the origin, like if you really went back and looked at English 00:18:06.442 --> 00:18:09.722 common law, the origin of this idea was, hey, you should, you know, 00:18:09.742 --> 00:18:13.622 before we start to think it's justified to use force against people, 00:18:13.902 --> 00:18:15.182 you should just run away. 00:18:15.722 --> 00:18:18.762 And only when you hit the wall, the outer wall, When you can't get away because 00:18:18.762 --> 00:18:24.962 you're up against the wall of the castle kind of thing, of the whatever thing 00:18:24.962 --> 00:18:28.522 it's called, the block, the veil, the thing, 00:18:28.802 --> 00:18:32.982 then you – now you can use force. And so that's the origin. 00:18:33.442 --> 00:18:36.662 That's the real classic way of thinking of it. 00:18:36.662 --> 00:18:40.182 Now, bring it down here a little bit more central to us, and you've got to think, 00:18:40.702 --> 00:18:47.562 okay, so the concept here as a doctrine is that you should not be using force 00:18:47.562 --> 00:18:50.742 against somebody if you could just safely retreat. 00:18:51.402 --> 00:18:56.922 If you have the means and the ability to just retreat from the threat safely, 00:18:57.922 --> 00:19:01.682 then you shouldn't be using force to defend yourself. You should just be leaving. 00:19:02.302 --> 00:19:04.362 Now, there's some nuance there because – 00:19:06.149 --> 00:19:09.029 I'm careful about some of the ways I've tried to word these things. 00:19:09.129 --> 00:19:14.489 So I like to say retreat when safely able so I don't have to put myself in jeopardy 00:19:14.489 --> 00:19:16.669 in order to retreat from the threat, right? 00:19:16.789 --> 00:19:22.369 I also think it's important to note that you don't have to abandon other innocent people, 00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:23.009 Right? 00:19:23.149 --> 00:19:27.369 So it's not like, oh, I got my elderly parents here or my children here, 00:19:27.389 --> 00:19:30.449 and I can safely retreat because I'm capable of running fast enough, 00:19:30.489 --> 00:19:33.569 but they can't, so I just have to leave them at the mercy of the attacker. 00:19:33.949 --> 00:19:39.149 That's not a thing either. The doctrine of duty to retreat or stand your ground, 00:19:39.309 --> 00:19:40.729 whichever side of this we're looking at, 00:19:40.969 --> 00:19:46.689 is this idea that if me and the other innocent parties collectively can safely 00:19:46.689 --> 00:19:51.569 retreat from the attacker, then that's the course of action that is warranted. 00:19:51.669 --> 00:19:56.689 That we only have a right to use force in our defense if we're unable to safely 00:19:56.689 --> 00:19:58.789 retreat as a group, as innocent parties. 00:19:59.149 --> 00:20:02.609 Yeah. And you could see this be applied. 00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:09.729 Like there's some nuance to how it may be written in laws in various states 00:20:09.729 --> 00:20:18.309 to where it could be applied at sort of different levels of, 00:20:20.753 --> 00:20:24.953 not detail or aggressiveness, but just sort of like, 00:20:26.313 --> 00:20:35.333 how much effort do you need to go through to retreat and to avoid the use of 00:20:35.333 --> 00:20:37.713 force before you're able to do so? 00:20:38.873 --> 00:20:42.313 Well, it's the nature of our legal system is that we have objective criteria 00:20:42.313 --> 00:20:45.133 that is determined subjectively. 00:20:45.293 --> 00:20:45.513 Yeah. 00:20:46.093 --> 00:20:51.053 Right? So we have humans who decide whether or not you know, you could have run away. 00:20:51.253 --> 00:20:55.513 We have humans who decide whether or not that alternative exit that you didn't 00:20:55.513 --> 00:20:59.093 take was really put yourself in more jeopardy or not. 00:20:59.333 --> 00:21:06.553 This is the nature of our legal system, that a judge and or a jury has to make 00:21:06.553 --> 00:21:11.113 a subjective decision based on an objective definition. 00:21:13.616 --> 00:21:17.716 And I think that over time, what you've seen is that people, 00:21:17.816 --> 00:21:20.536 and I'm just speaking pretty broadly and generally here, 00:21:21.136 --> 00:21:26.396 have, I think this is a very reasonable take that people kind of as they reasoned 00:21:26.396 --> 00:21:30.676 about these sorts of things kind of start, you know, thinking like, 00:21:31.076 --> 00:21:38.056 well, hey, if I'm lawfully and legally able to be present in a certain place 00:21:38.056 --> 00:21:41.996 at a certain time, I'm just minding my own business. 00:21:41.996 --> 00:21:47.476 I am not a party to anything in particular. I'm not an aggressor. 00:21:47.676 --> 00:21:49.196 I'm not trying to instigate anything. 00:21:49.656 --> 00:21:56.496 I'm just me doing my thing completely legally, like any other lawful citizen 00:21:56.496 --> 00:21:59.236 would be doing in this place at this given time. 00:21:59.756 --> 00:22:04.456 That it's sort of like, well, that seems kind of unreasonable that someone that 00:22:04.456 --> 00:22:09.496 fits that context should have to do anything if they're presented with a threat. 00:22:09.496 --> 00:22:14.976 And so you've seen this kind of pushback over the last couple hundred years, 00:22:15.276 --> 00:22:19.136 at least of the history of our country, kind of suggesting, well, 00:22:19.236 --> 00:22:20.716 hold on here. And so actually... 00:22:21.286 --> 00:22:25.786 Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, in a Supreme Court opinion, wrote something to 00:22:25.786 --> 00:22:31.806 the effect of that a person is not obliged to retreat if they are without fault 00:22:31.806 --> 00:22:33.666 in a particular situation. 00:22:33.866 --> 00:22:37.266 And so that's where you start to see some of this a little bit more codified, 00:22:37.326 --> 00:22:44.026 if you will, in the law or at least in rulings and in cases that at least the 00:22:44.026 --> 00:22:45.886 Supreme Court has been involved in. 00:22:45.886 --> 00:22:49.906 And then now, you know, in the last hundred years, particularly in the last 00:22:49.906 --> 00:22:55.486 probably 50, 60, 70 years, you start to see states get on board with this idea of, 00:22:55.946 --> 00:23:01.266 okay, we think it's unfair and unreasonable that a lawful person should have 00:23:01.266 --> 00:23:03.666 to retreat before defending themselves. 00:23:04.306 --> 00:23:06.686 And I think there's some good reasons for that. Let me present, 00:23:06.686 --> 00:23:10.906 you know, probably the most popular thought I think on this would be that, 00:23:11.226 --> 00:23:15.766 well, hey, and I would put this in the, you know, to kind of draw some comparison 00:23:15.766 --> 00:23:20.546 here that the last few years we, in country, in our country goes through cycles like this. 00:23:20.666 --> 00:23:25.146 But we've seen in the last couple of years as law enforcement had, 00:23:25.326 --> 00:23:29.986 there's been, you know, some high profile incidents involving cops where, 00:23:29.986 --> 00:23:31.706 you know, shootings have happened, whatever. 00:23:32.506 --> 00:23:35.366 And um you know just as 00:23:35.366 --> 00:23:38.706 one very popular example i mean like the uh 00:23:38.706 --> 00:23:41.546 uh uh brown what was his first 00:23:41.546 --> 00:23:46.906 name um out of like i think it was st louis or kansas yeah i'm sorry anyway 00:23:46.906 --> 00:23:54.166 um yeah brown right um you know very it was a very very very heated cop shooting 00:23:54.166 --> 00:23:59.946 involving uh anyway just having a moment, a moment, a senior moment here. 00:24:00.086 --> 00:24:03.346 I'm going to claim that I'm not a senior yet, but, you know, 00:24:03.426 --> 00:24:08.246 I'm getting closer all the time, but anyway, so, you know, you have cops that 00:24:08.246 --> 00:24:11.366 were the, the, the popular Michael Brown, Michael Brown. Thank you. 00:24:12.826 --> 00:24:14.066 That's funny because I was, 00:24:16.317 --> 00:24:21.157 uh radio show host named michael brown i'm like that's not right is it no it is that's yeah and. 00:24:21.157 --> 00:24:24.217 If you said if you'd said ferguson missouri i think i might have caught on 00:24:24.217 --> 00:24:27.037 Faster ferguson's like a suburb of st louis yeah yeah yeah 00:24:27.037 --> 00:24:29.917 that's why i was like anyway st louis anyway we both struggled yeah 00:24:29.917 --> 00:24:32.957 michael brown right okay so i'm just using as one very 00:24:32.957 --> 00:24:36.057 very popular example where an office you know that officer 00:24:36.057 --> 00:24:39.137 used uh the force that he did and that caught 00:24:39.137 --> 00:24:42.077 a lot of heat a lot of attention and start seeing public opinion 00:24:42.077 --> 00:24:47.037 sway and then you see more and more you know uh whether it's actual statutes 00:24:47.037 --> 00:24:52.577 that are passed by states or just police departments in general start changing 00:24:52.577 --> 00:25:00.237 policy and basically start kind of handcuffing in a way officers ability to respond to threat. 00:25:00.477 --> 00:25:04.257 You start seeing like just last week, Jacob, I've seen a couple of officer involved 00:25:04.257 --> 00:25:10.637 shooting body cam footages where I'm like, why is that officer showing so much 00:25:10.637 --> 00:25:12.757 restraint? I mean, I'll give you one example. 00:25:12.997 --> 00:25:14.997 Man's very, very clearly got a knife. 00:25:15.997 --> 00:25:20.417 He's advancing on a fellow officer. And this cop that we're, 00:25:20.497 --> 00:25:23.097 you know, from his viewpoint that we're watching, I mean, he's not the immediate, 00:25:23.097 --> 00:25:25.177 like, a target of this threat. 00:25:25.557 --> 00:25:29.437 But he's got a very good vantage point. He's got his gun out. He's aimed. 00:25:30.057 --> 00:25:33.497 And that guy starts advancing on this other officer. 00:25:34.097 --> 00:25:38.357 And, I mean, there's just an immense amount of restraint. 00:25:38.877 --> 00:25:42.497 That and I understand like we have the ability as 00:25:42.497 --> 00:25:47.597 humans frankly to just be like you know what what I feel okay with in this moment 00:25:47.597 --> 00:25:52.357 is I don't want to have to take this man's life I would really like to resolve 00:25:52.357 --> 00:25:55.937 this without the use of deadly force I'm gonna do everything I can to avoid 00:25:55.937 --> 00:25:58.377 that and I understand that and that's kind of what we're talking about here 00:25:58.377 --> 00:26:01.617 with duty retreat is like trying to avoid conflict. 00:26:02.490 --> 00:26:09.110 But you see things kind of sway politically and even legally to where it becomes, 00:26:09.310 --> 00:26:14.770 for various reasons, because other officers have been prosecuted for bad shoots, 00:26:14.770 --> 00:26:20.370 and now you see cops start to be a lot more hesitant to use deadly force. 00:26:20.370 --> 00:26:25.510 Now, I know I just went down this rabbit hole, but I'm trying to make this comparison, if you will, 00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:29.650 to when you have a duty to retreat in place for citizens, 00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:37.610 you're giving them this additional requirement to an already complicated and 00:26:37.610 --> 00:26:42.750 complex situation in many cases where it's like, you know, 00:26:43.050 --> 00:26:48.270 does somebody then hesitate to act that could be harmful to them? 00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:51.810 Because they're like, oh, crap, I got to retreat. I got to retreat. 00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:54.650 And so what do you think about that? 00:26:54.930 --> 00:26:58.630 I think that a lot of the court cases and laws we've seen, and we're going to 00:26:58.630 --> 00:27:02.350 get into that a little bit more specifically, I think that a lot of them are 00:27:02.350 --> 00:27:07.630 designed to reduce the fallacy of arbitrary subjective opinions. 00:27:09.030 --> 00:27:11.790 And we were talking about that a second ago when I said, you're talking about 00:27:11.790 --> 00:27:16.650