Riley Bowman: Welcome to the Concealed Carry
Riley Bowman: Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK.
Riley Bowman: Today is Wednesday, March 25th, 2026.
Riley Bowman: As of the recording, this is a live recording of this episode.
Riley Bowman: I am your host, Riley Bowman, joined by Jacob Paulson.
Jacob Paulsen: Yep, it's me. I'm here.
Riley Bowman: He's here. He's doing the thing.
Jacob Paulsen: What's on your shirt?
Riley Bowman: This? Oh, I love this shirt. It's not, it's a, I bought it on Amazon.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. You know, it's got MP3, you know, file player, whatever thing,
Riley Bowman: MP4, which I mean, those things, that wasn't even like a thing for more than
Riley Bowman: about like two years. And then MP5.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm surprised Amazon let that be sold.
Riley Bowman: I know, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Anything associated with a carbine.
Riley Bowman: I saw it and I'm like, oh man, bye. It was like 12 bucks too. It was awesome.
Riley Bowman: But, yeah, actually, since I'm wearing MP5 on my shirt today,
Riley Bowman: this episode is brought to you by HK.
Riley Bowman: They're not only our title sponsor, but we're specifically mentioning them as
Riley Bowman: a sponsor of this episode today.
Riley Bowman: We believe the guns we're carrying right now, their HK pistols,
Riley Bowman: are some of the finest quality pistols.
Riley Bowman: Implements that you can own for purposes of self-defense uh they got some great
Riley Bowman: stuff guys and and i i just saw a rumor get this jacob and i'm not speaking
Riley Bowman: officially as a representative of hk or anything but i saw on uh there's an
Riley Bowman: hk forum that i peruse a little bit here and there,
Riley Bowman: and uh one of the accounts on there he's clearly german like he talks like a
Riley Bowman: german i mean i don't hear his voice or his accent but the way he writes and
Riley Bowman: everything you know you could tell he's he's native right Riley.
Jacob Paulsen: Can now determine where you're from by your writing
Riley Bowman: No you could tell I mean I think he mentions he's he's he's from there all right
Riley Bowman: and I'm trying not to give away his name like his his his username like it's
Riley Bowman: it's German okay so I don't know if he works there I doubt he works there but
Riley Bowman: he he seems to know what he's talking about he at least has some some kind of
Riley Bowman: connections but he just posted,
Riley Bowman: there's uh yeah basically there's a
Riley Bowman: possibility that the mp7 that people
Riley Bowman: think is you know so awesome uh that they will that they're you know coming
Riley Bowman: out with a sp7 i'm not saying that's an official i'm getting this i'm not speaking
Riley Bowman: officially this is rumor this is like the rumor meal but like people go crazy
Riley Bowman: over that mp7 you know a little 4.6 millimeter caliber.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah we'd have to find some people start making that ammo in america
Riley Bowman: Yeah right but uh pretty hard to find so
Riley Bowman: the rumor is sp7 you know meaning semi-automatic because
Riley Bowman: there was two images that were shared one was
Riley Bowman: uh basically a pistol version and then
Riley Bowman: there was a rifle version which the mp7 i don't think that really is a thing
Riley Bowman: but they they're coming out with uh a rifle version has you know 16 inch barrel
Riley Bowman: and all that but anyway cool so that's that's a rumor and that comes supposedly from germany hey.
Jacob Paulsen: The gun will come from germany too so import credits
Riley Bowman: Anyway i saw that you know i take all things with a grain of salt um it's it's
Riley Bowman: you know amusing to me nonetheless but we appreciate hk support the podcast um,
Riley Bowman: hk-usa.com's website i appoint
Riley Bowman: you to the u.s based operation is made
Riley Bowman: up of amazing people some of our most favorite people
Riley Bowman: in the industry uh because i mean they're just good
Riley Bowman: people but they're also shooters they train they require their employees to
Riley Bowman: train and take classes and stuff to make themselves better uh and most of them
Riley Bowman: like i can't i think they they said they were in a company meeting once and
Riley Bowman: everyone in that like i don't know if it was a board meeting necessarily,
Riley Bowman: but it was a meeting with people, stakeholders,
Riley Bowman: folks involved here at the corporate office sitting around a table and every
Riley Bowman: single one of them has a permit. Every one of them is carrying a gun.
Riley Bowman: They take it seriously. I think that's really cool.
Riley Bowman: Not every gun company is like that. HK-USA.com.
Riley Bowman: Today's episode also sponsored by CCW Safe. CCW Safe is always a sponsor of
Riley Bowman: Justified Saves episodes. It's been the case for a number of years now.
Riley Bowman: So that's what we're here to talk about today is Justified Saves.
Riley Bowman: I guarantee you, a lot of people we're going to talk about as we go through
Riley Bowman: these stories, Jacob, are going to wish they had CCW safe coverage.
Riley Bowman: And it's not something you want to be wishing for after the fact.
Riley Bowman: This is something you buy before you are ever in a situation like this.
Riley Bowman: And I'll tell you the very first one. This is true of probably all of them.
Riley Bowman: But, you know, this very first one is a situation that develops very quickly, very randomly.
Riley Bowman: Something you don't just wake up today driving someplace
Riley Bowman: with your two kids in your pickup truck thinking today's
Riley Bowman: the day today's the day we need that gun you know
Riley Bowman: it just it happens so fast and before you know
Riley Bowman: it uh you are not only having to use your gun in defense but then you're also
Riley Bowman: going well crap now what because there's an investigation underway and i know
Riley Bowman: nothing about that i don't have anybody to help me out through that i don't
Riley Bowman: have legal representation i'm gonna have to go find that, pay for it.
Riley Bowman: They're going to probably want a huge retainer up front because they know already,
Riley Bowman: you know, a gun's involved.
Riley Bowman: Somebody got shot. Multiple people got shot.
Riley Bowman: Like already we know that's, you know, a trickier case than most.
Riley Bowman: So they're going to certainly want a retainer up front.
Riley Bowman: So what are you doing? Mortgaging your house, whatever, selling cars,
Riley Bowman: selling guns, whatever. So you can just pay for an attorney.
Jacob Paulsen: Right?
Riley Bowman: You won't have to do that if you have a membership with CCWsafe.
Riley Bowman: Just make one phone call.
Jacob Paulsen: Just figure it out. Put it in the budget. Make it happen. Yep.
Riley Bowman: And they have plans that are budget friendly. So check them out.
Riley Bowman: CCWsafe.com Afternoon gents as messy rides on YouTube.
Riley Bowman: That's a fun name there. Appreciate you watching and tuning in live, Messy Rides.
Riley Bowman: All righty, Jacob, let's jump into our stories, shall we?
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: We got a bunch. There's some good ones here, some doozies.
Riley Bowman: And we're going to also, I'll tease this ahead of the fact. We're saving it
Riley Bowman: for last because it's kind of a notable thing.
Riley Bowman: But we're going to talk today, too. We're going to talk about the active shooting that took place.
Riley Bowman: You know, this was the terrible shooting took place at Old Dominion University
Riley Bowman: where one of the professors was shot there, a ROTC instructor.
Riley Bowman: And, of course, we're going to talk about that and the aftermath of that and
Riley Bowman: some of what happened there.
Riley Bowman: We're also going to talk a little bit about the incident out of Michigan,
Riley Bowman: the synagogue shooting there that just happened a few weeks back as well.
Riley Bowman: So we're going to talk about those as part of this episode today.
Riley Bowman: It'll come towards the end. And so you're going to stick around and hear our
Riley Bowman: take on those incidents.
Riley Bowman: But as is typical, what we often do with Justified Saves episodes is we like
Riley Bowman: to start with at least one example of a what not to do.
Riley Bowman: And this is not the most blatant what not to do.
Jacob Paulsen: No, no, it's subtle.
Riley Bowman: But going through the different stories, I was like, okay, this would be a good example.
Riley Bowman: Because we want people to learn from these stories.
Riley Bowman: These are real stories. because these are real people that are involved,
Riley Bowman: their lives, you know, real lives that are impacted.
Riley Bowman: And the opportunity is here to learn from these, you know, it's to learn from
Riley Bowman: somebody else having touched that hot stove, not so you have to go and touch it yourself.
Riley Bowman: We want you to learn from these and be thinking ahead of time.
Riley Bowman: If you find yourself in a similar situation, hopefully you can make a better decision.
Riley Bowman: So, Texas road rage incident, this happened near Harlingen, or Harlingen,
Riley Bowman: Harlingen, Texas, Cameron County it says.
Riley Bowman: Two men hospitalized that got shot by our presumed good guy in this case.
Riley Bowman: It's hard to know exactly what happened here. What was going on?
Jacob Paulsen: Well, the good guy says very clearly what started the incident.
Riley Bowman: Wow. But you got two brothers and apparently two vehicles, if I read the story
Riley Bowman: correctly, that are like, are they on the side of the road?
Riley Bowman: Yes, they are. You know, so it's a little bit like, so basically you got two
Riley Bowman: brothers driving two vehicles, apparently on the side of the road.
Riley Bowman: And this guy, who's our presumed good guy in this case, he's just driving and
Riley Bowman: he just, he happens to pass by them.
Riley Bowman: And apparently because of how he passed them, they were upset.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, he told deputies that he quote, nearly caused one of them to run off the road.
Riley Bowman: See, that's where I got confused because it sounds like they're on the side
Riley Bowman: of the road, but nearly caused them to run off the road like that would imply there.
Jacob Paulsen: He says Sanchez told deputies he was driving westbound on blah,
Jacob Paulsen: blah, with his two children when he passed two vehicles, nearly causing one
Jacob Paulsen: of them to run off the road. So I don't think they were on the side of the road. I think.
Jacob Paulsen: He just passed them, but he did a crappy job of passing them and almost caused
Jacob Paulsen: them to run off the side of the road.
Jacob Paulsen: So he was very transparent about the fact, like, hey, I almost caused these
Jacob Paulsen: dudes to run off the road. That's on me.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm mad talking his verbs. Right, right.
Jacob Paulsen: I think he transparently said, like, this started when I accidentally or I did,
Jacob Paulsen: like, almost run these dudes off the road.
Riley Bowman: Okay. Well, yeah. So something there.
Riley Bowman: And here's the thing. It sounds like maybe he just made an honest, simple mistake.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe.
Riley Bowman: That nobody actually got hurt as a result of.
Jacob Paulsen: Right.
Riley Bowman: Okay. And we make mistakes as drivers sometimes.
Riley Bowman: That's just the way it goes. We do our best. We obviously want to be safe on
Riley Bowman: the roads and make good decisions.
Riley Bowman: But in this case, something happened there, and it was maybe a little iffy.
Riley Bowman: In this case, with this gentleman and these two other brothers,
Riley Bowman: but they decide to chase him down. That's basically what happens next.
Jacob Paulsen: They follow him around.
Riley Bowman: So they follow him and they are clearly signaling to get him to stop.
Riley Bowman: This is actually the article says this, by the way, is reported on ValleyCentral.com,
Riley Bowman: which sounds like a kind of a local news article.
Riley Bowman: Website there but uh anyway they get him to stop and so he pulls over and he gets out of his truck.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes yeah and this is this is maybe that crux point where it's what not to do
Jacob Paulsen: right right but it's also semi-understandables like these guys are signaling
Jacob Paulsen: to me they're telling me to stop i know i pissed them off feeling bad about
Jacob Paulsen: it maybe uh you know maybe i should stop and apologize
Jacob Paulsen: you know maybe maybe if i just tell these guys my bad i'm
Jacob Paulsen: sorry you know sure that i can de-escalate this and so i guess what i'm trying
Jacob Paulsen: to say is it's you know it's easy to second to in hindsight look at his decision
Jacob Paulsen: like dude if you just stayed in your truck man like you know some people would
Jacob Paulsen: have less holes in them now yeah but in the moment you can see how any one of us might
Jacob Paulsen: make that easy to make decision of like hey i'm gonna talk to these guys you
Jacob Paulsen: know i'm gonna i'm to see if i can smooth things up yeah
Riley Bowman: It again yes it is easy to see how you would maybe make a similar you know decision like this um.
Riley Bowman: And, you know, I'm not going to say that there's never a reason to get out of
Riley Bowman: your vehicle, but what you definitely want to be doing is trying to read the situation,
Riley Bowman: read body language, try to ascertain what's going on and what their intentions
Riley Bowman: are before you exit a vehicle.
Riley Bowman: Because as soon as we exit the vehicle, we're, we are removing that protective
Riley Bowman: barrier that at least for the moment is protecting us from elements of the outside world.
Riley Bowman: Uh and so as soon as you're outside that
Riley Bowman: vehicle all all bets are are off uh
Riley Bowman: and so that's what happens here is they begin assaulting him
Riley Bowman: uh and it's apparent like that they they this is not just a minor thing because
Riley Bowman: get this his extensive injuries it says were his he had injuries to his eye
Riley Bowman: socket uh multiple bumps on his head and small alterations on his face but i
Riley Bowman: mean as soon as you start like that one right there.
Riley Bowman: I clue in on the eye socket because when,
Riley Bowman: you know, when we're talking about the use of deadly force in particular and
Riley Bowman: defensive life, one critical element as far as whether it's justified, whether, you know,
Riley Bowman: the threshold has been raised to a level where deadly force may be appropriate
Riley Bowman: to use is when it's not just a threat of death against you, but could also be a great bodily injury.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Which is...
Jacob Paulsen: This would seem to be, yeah.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I mean, because if you have damage to your eye socket,
Riley Bowman: like usually we're talking about a broken orbital bone...
Jacob Paulsen: Bone, something.
Riley Bowman: Or potentially injuries to the eye. I mean, usually it's going to have injuries
Riley Bowman: to the eye included as part of that. And that is...
Riley Bowman: In most cases, uh, under the law defined as being, yeah, it could be one of
Riley Bowman: those things that's great bodily injury because it could be permanently,
Riley Bowman: uh, life changing for an individual to lose sight for instance. Okay.
Riley Bowman: And so that's what I clue in on. It's like, yeah, bumps on his head and lacerations
Riley Bowman: on his face. Like that doesn't sound good, but okay.
Riley Bowman: He's been injured severely apparently to his eye socket. That's,
Riley Bowman: that's a problem, right?
Riley Bowman: So during this assault, He goes back to his vehicle.
Riley Bowman: He grabs from the center console a .40 caliber handgun and fires multiple shots.
Riley Bowman: He hits one of the brothers. It says they have gunshot wounds to the forearm
Riley Bowman: and armpit, and the other brother has a gunshot wound to his stomach.
Riley Bowman: So he ends up shooting both of them.
Riley Bowman: And apparently they're both going to be fine.
Jacob Paulsen: They're in stable condition.
Riley Bowman: Now understand there's one more element to this story, And that this gentleman
Riley Bowman: that does a shooting here,
Riley Bowman: our victim, he has two children, a nine-year-old and a 10-year-old child with
Riley Bowman: him in his vehicle as this is all taking place. So that's another piece.
Riley Bowman: It's like, okay, now we've got to take into account. We're not just talking
Riley Bowman: about me driving myself and whether I get out of a vehicle or not.
Riley Bowman: It's also that I've got not just another adult, but I've got children that are
Riley Bowman: dependent upon me for their safety in the vehicle as well. I've got to be mindful of that.
Jacob Paulsen: I guess I'm thinking a lot about sometimes it's less you know
Jacob Paulsen: More what you do and more how you do it and so if you if you feel compelled to get out of the car
Jacob Paulsen: and i don't know any of the circumstances i don't know the orientation i don't know where
Jacob Paulsen: they were where they were pulled over i don't have video i mean we're just making this
Jacob Paulsen: up yep and we're from i shouldn't say we're making it up we're we're
Jacob Paulsen: filling in some gaps that aren't here in the news story but i think that you
Jacob Paulsen: know how i get out of the car uh how i position myself relative to these two
Jacob Paulsen: people maybe maybe i initially get out of the car but then they start like get
Jacob Paulsen: closing distance and you know getting close to my personal space and I'm like
Jacob Paulsen: oh I'm going to get back on the car now
Jacob Paulsen: or I you know keep the car between me and them but there's two of them so that's
Jacob Paulsen: kind of problematic right so I guess I'm just trying to say is um
Jacob Paulsen: I think that sometimes you had to say, okay, well, if I'm going to do X,
Jacob Paulsen: if I feel compelled to do X, then what are the ways I can mitigate risk that
Jacob Paulsen: I can reduce the danger in my action?
Jacob Paulsen: And yes, I agree, though, that knowing that there's young kids in the car changes
Jacob Paulsen: the perspective of things.
Jacob Paulsen: When you're moving, there's just so little. They're signaling you to stock.
Jacob Paulsen: There's so little that can go wrong while you're driving. What are they going to do, ram you?
Jacob Paulsen: Right? So you have so much on your side in that moment.
Jacob Paulsen: You have the ability to drive to a public place, to a police station.
Jacob Paulsen: You have your phone, presumably. You can call 911.
Jacob Paulsen: Hey, these guys are upset with me. They're telling me. They're following me.
Jacob Paulsen: I just feel like you have a lot of alternatives to pulling over and getting assaulted.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, that's less than ideal. And it's worth mentioning that when it describes
Jacob Paulsen: him reaching and getting the gun out of the center console, it says,
Jacob Paulsen: while they continued to assault him. so he's trying to like break the parent
Riley Bowman: That he is he's basically fought his way back.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes to where that gun is yeah and he's
Jacob Paulsen: and he's opened a door into a car that where there's two kids and
Jacob Paulsen: he's you know probably all bloodied up and this none of this is fun and pleasant
Jacob Paulsen: so the other lesson here is man that gun and that console not doing you a lot
Jacob Paulsen: of good right now as you're getting beat up right now we have to go back like
Jacob Paulsen: with that's that's the thing is we get back to that that's less than ideal uh
Jacob Paulsen: i mean what if he hadn't been able to we don't know where I mean,
Jacob Paulsen: in my mind, you know, I see these two brothers and sort of like,
Jacob Paulsen: you know, that dude almost ran us off the road.
Jacob Paulsen: Let's go beat his, you know, like, they're just like, we're going to go,
Jacob Paulsen: we're going to go prove, you know, show this guy a lesson. Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: And we're going to beat him up real good, you know? So.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, that was another reason why this is in the what not to do category is
Riley Bowman: not carrying his gun on himself, on his person.
Riley Bowman: So a lot of people will have a truck gun, so to speak, or a gun that's designated
Riley Bowman: for being in the center console or something like that.
Riley Bowman: We've spoken out against that for years about not being an advisable solution
Riley Bowman: for carrying of a gun for a variety of reasons.
Riley Bowman: I mean, one, what's happening with that gun when you're not in the vehicle?
Riley Bowman: And in this case, even for just a few moments, he gets out of the vehicle.
Riley Bowman: His kids are still in the vehicle. There's a gun in the vehicle, right?
Riley Bowman: You know, like, and I don't care who you are, but, you know,
Riley Bowman: especially young kids, and these are young kids, any amount of time,
Riley Bowman: any amount, seconds is too long.
Riley Bowman: Like an unsecured gun is, that's too much. Okay. In a situation like that.
Riley Bowman: Um, and, and these kinds of things happen so quickly. Like I,
Riley Bowman: I've heard people talk about how they'll get in the vehicle,
Riley Bowman: they'll take their gun off of their waistband and stick it,
Riley Bowman: you know, in the cup holder or in the center glove box or, you know,
Riley Bowman: or under the seat, or they've got a little magnet, you know, mount and all that.
Riley Bowman: So they'll take their gun off when they get in the vehicle because it's,
Riley Bowman: it's more comfortable that way for them to drive.
Riley Bowman: Here's the problem with that. Okay. So I want you to think about this because
Riley Bowman: I've had this debate with people before.
Riley Bowman: They're like, well, yeah, what's the matter with that?
Riley Bowman: In fact, we were approached by a company that wanted to help market a product
Riley Bowman: that was basically that very thing.
Riley Bowman: Take a gun out of your holster, stick it in this holster that's designed to fit in your cup holder.
Riley Bowman: And they didn't appreciate our feedback that we don't really think that's a
Riley Bowman: smart thing because these sorts of situations develop quickly when they do develop
Riley Bowman: and you're not going to have the wherewithal to remember a lot of times like,
Riley Bowman: oh crap, okay, I got to grab my gun and stick it in the holster because the
Riley Bowman: situation is developing too fast.
Riley Bowman: So now you are that person that's in a fight, a struggle for your life,
Riley Bowman: having to fight back to where the gun is just so you can defend yourself.
Jacob Paulsen: Not good. But I, yeah, I know we're maybe spending too much time on this one, but.
Riley Bowman: That's a good one.
Jacob Paulsen: We got a comment the other day. We have an article on our website published
Jacob Paulsen: many years ago called Your Car is Not a Holster. Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: And we got a comment from somebody who basically proposed this ridiculous,
Jacob Paulsen: complex way of staging their gun in a way that would meet all the criteria that
Jacob Paulsen: we basically line out in that article.
Jacob Paulsen: In that article, we basically hear all the problems with all your car holsters.
Jacob Paulsen: And this person's like, well, what if I do this with this and I attach this
Jacob Paulsen: and this massive, complex thing?
Jacob Paulsen: And I replied to the comment. I said, you're trying to solve a problem that
Jacob Paulsen: doesn't exist to begin with.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: That just put the gun in your holster on your body the way you carry it around
Jacob Paulsen: and leave it there while you're in the car.
Jacob Paulsen: So I think that would be my two senses, that if you really have a carry system
Jacob Paulsen: that makes it so hard for you to keep the gun on you while you're driving,
Jacob Paulsen: maybe your holster just sucks.
Jacob Paulsen: Now, some of you are more, and the guy in the store, we don't know,
Jacob Paulsen: but it might be that he doesn't transfer it back and forth because of a comfort issue or something.
Jacob Paulsen: He just permanently maintains a gun in the console of his car,
Jacob Paulsen: In which case, that's just also horribly irresponsible.
Jacob Paulsen: You're asking for that gun to be stolen, first and foremost.
Jacob Paulsen: And yeah, I just, I don't, I can't get there. I'm not there.
Riley Bowman: Yep. I'm right there with you.
Riley Bowman: Well, that was, I think, a really great way of kicking out this episode.
Riley Bowman: I mean, yeah, we did spend some time on that particular story,
Riley Bowman: but there's a lot that's packaged into it, a lot of lessons that can be taken
Riley Bowman: from that, and that's why I wanted to feature that.
Riley Bowman: Let's move on to an article published on our friend's website, USA Carry.
Riley Bowman: It says here the title is Homeowner Warned Intruder. He was armed before fatal
Riley Bowman: shooting during a break-in attempt.
Riley Bowman: This happened in Somerset Township, Pennsylvania. Uh, so basically what you
Riley Bowman: have here is a man was awakened by loud banging.
Riley Bowman: All right. So he's hearing loud banging on his kitchen window.
Riley Bowman: Uh, he gets up and, and, you know, he, he calls, uh, police,
Riley Bowman: you know, he calls dispatch saying, Hey, there, someone seems like they're trying
Riley Bowman: to break into my house. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: So it sounded like he actually tried to place the call before what happens next.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes. Identifying. Right.
Riley Bowman: So it was really good. I think that's actually really smart.
Riley Bowman: I mean, because before really taking action, I mean, he's like,
Riley Bowman: hey, let's get authorities on their way.
Riley Bowman: I mean, the sooner we can communicate, especially with law enforcement,
Riley Bowman: the sooner they're going to get there because it's going to be minutes.
Jacob Paulsen: Clock's ticking, right?
Riley Bowman: And so getting that clock going sooner rather than later is important.
Riley Bowman: So he's talking to the dispatch. Banging's still happening.
Riley Bowman: And eventually this person breaks the kitchen window and they attempt to enter
Riley Bowman: the residence. The homeowner says he warned the individual, the person breaking in, that he was armed.
Riley Bowman: And when the intruder continued coming into the home towards the homeowner, the homeowner shot him.
Riley Bowman: Uh, he was, uh, found by, uh, responding law enforcement near the rear of the
Riley Bowman: residence with an apparent gunshot wound to the head. It says he's pronounced dead on the scene.
Riley Bowman: So pretty, uh, pretty wild story. I mean, to go from, Hey, someone's breaking into my house.
Riley Bowman: Hey, can you get somebody over here to now you're warning that person that you're
Riley Bowman: armed? Now you're shooting that person.
Riley Bowman: I mean, it just kind of keeps, I think it's a good example of kind of how it,
Riley Bowman: you know, it didn't go from zero to a hundred necessarily.
Riley Bowman: Right off the bat it's sort of like this guy was trying to go through all the proper steps yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: No one who who physically breaks their way
Jacob Paulsen: in through a window is in the right mind i mean this you know windows are hard
Jacob Paulsen: to break and so i mean it doesn't say if he had an object or a crow bar i don't
Jacob Paulsen: know but i mean he spent some period of time trying to get through this window
Jacob Paulsen: uh not trying other like it seems very like kitchen window like bam like the
Jacob Paulsen: enough time that person can wake up,
Jacob Paulsen: make a phone call, retrieve a gun, go monitor the situation,
Jacob Paulsen: tell him like, go away. And then eventually he comes through the glass.
Jacob Paulsen: So now where I think that there's some interesting commentary or debate here
Jacob Paulsen: is that I'm going to make an assumption that I don't know for a fact,
Jacob Paulsen: but I'm assuming that this person was shot while they were in the process of
Jacob Paulsen: coming through the window.
Jacob Paulsen: Because the body was found with a headshot wound outside. So I'm assuming this
Jacob Paulsen: person did not get shot while they were already in the house and then exit through
Jacob Paulsen: the window with the headshot wound.
Jacob Paulsen: So I'm just assuming that this person's midway through a window,
Jacob Paulsen: in the process of coming through the window, when they get shot in the head.
Jacob Paulsen: And that's an angle that maybe facilitates or increases the odds of you getting shot in the head.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: So that's interesting to me. and I'm not suggesting good or bad,
Jacob Paulsen: but I think that it's worth talking about, right? And we see this a lot with like a doorway.
Jacob Paulsen: Someone's coming through the door. Someone's banging on the door.
Jacob Paulsen: They're coming through the window, you know? So I think that someone could ask,
Jacob Paulsen: well, do I have to wait for them to come through the window and actually be in my house?
Jacob Paulsen: Like, what does that look like? What's the, you know, how able am I to defend
Jacob Paulsen: the barricade before they really become a threat?
Jacob Paulsen: And I think that's a really viable question to ask.
Jacob Paulsen: And the answer here is probably this is very justified.
Jacob Paulsen: And there's some variables that we would have to potentially consider.
Jacob Paulsen: But I appreciate that this is a guy, a homeowner who probably is saying,
Jacob Paulsen: hey, once he's in the kitchen standing up and looking at me,
Jacob Paulsen: my security is greatly diminished.
Jacob Paulsen: My ability to defend myself is greatly diminished. Everything gets real bad in that moment.
Jacob Paulsen: So a whole bunch of really good judgment is used. No one shot through the window
Jacob Paulsen: when it's just getting banged on.
Jacob Paulsen: We wait until there's true jeopardy. It's like, okay, this guy's coming through now.
Jacob Paulsen: He's going to be in the house in a moment. Now is the time to take action.
Jacob Paulsen: So anyway, I guess I had some comments there about the timing of the shot.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: The one interesting thing here is that aspect of giving a verbal warning, right?
Riley Bowman: Nobody's obligated to issue a warning.
Riley Bowman: I'm not aware of any, it certainly has happened in Pennsylvania.
Riley Bowman: I'm not aware of anything in Pennsylvania.
Riley Bowman: And I'm not aware of really anything in any state that would say you must give
Riley Bowman: a warning. No. You know, there's no such thing. Right? Right.
Riley Bowman: So, but, you know, one thing that is good about that in cases like these and
Riley Bowman: in really potentially true of any case, although, I mean,
Riley Bowman: you certainly I've seen officers get themselves in trouble because they are
Riley Bowman: so focused on trying to issue warnings that they end up, you know,
Riley Bowman: failing to actually take action.
Riley Bowman: But so that's something that could also apply here that, you know,
Riley Bowman: you could, you just need to be
Riley Bowman: mindful of, of making sure you take action when you need to take action.
Riley Bowman: But issuing a warning does...
Riley Bowman: Least increase the probability that you will appear as the innocent party,
Riley Bowman: you know, as part of a situation like this.
Riley Bowman: Now, this one's a lot more clear, you know, because we're dealing with a,
Riley Bowman: you know, this is a castle doctrine sort of level, you know, incident.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. One of the most like obvious, innocent and imminent kind of situations ever. Right.
Riley Bowman: My point is just simply that we are never, ever obligated to issue a verbal
Riley Bowman: warning, but you certainly may do so when appropriate.
Riley Bowman: And doing so certainly cannot hurt. And in best case scenario,
Riley Bowman: we'll make your case appear a lot better for you.
Jacob Paulsen: Verbal warnings serve a lot of great things. I mean, in addition to the legal
Jacob Paulsen: side of this, this idea of basically it strengthens the self-defense claim.
Jacob Paulsen: It also reduces ambiguity, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Like any chance of like, well, maybe this person did not have really bad intentions.
Jacob Paulsen: Well, I issued warnings.
Riley Bowman: Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, doesn't that remove some
Jacob Paulsen: of this ambiguity, right? So there's a tactical side of this too, right?
Jacob Paulsen: It's tactically good because it helps me reduce any ambiguity and clarify for
Jacob Paulsen: me the true nature of the threat.
Riley Bowman: Yep. And I could tell you, I mean, nobody...
Riley Bowman: Nobody wants to shoot an innocent person. And let me, let me,
Riley Bowman: that, I'm not suggesting someone breaking into your house is innocent.
Riley Bowman: However, there have been plenty of instances where somebody who is highly intoxicated
Riley Bowman: or under the influence of drugs is confused about where they are,
Riley Bowman: think that they have arrived at their home or the place they stay and can't get in.
Riley Bowman: So they force their way in and get themselves shot.
Riley Bowman: And those are what you would call lawful but awful situations,
Riley Bowman: particularly for the homeowner that defends their home and defends themselves
Riley Bowman: from that unlawful occupant,
Riley Bowman: someone who has entered and occupied that space now.
Riley Bowman: But at the same time, if you found out, they're like, this is just a person
Riley Bowman: that was confused about where they were and not necessarily someone that came
Riley Bowman: there to do you harm. I'd feel worse about that.
Riley Bowman: I'd be like, dang, there's no joy in taking a life or shooting anybody anytime.
Riley Bowman: There is especially no joy in shooting somebody that is just mistaken.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, finds out they had the wrong address or whatever the thing was. Yeah, no. I mean.
Riley Bowman: And so that just goes along with your talking about issuing a warning.
Jacob Paulsen: Remove the ambiguity.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's worth considering.
Riley Bowman: Let's move right along. This is an interesting story. We don't often feature stories out of Canada.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, probably for more than one reason.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. One, there's not many instances, at least we come across,
Riley Bowman: and probably because it's a lot more difficult to defend yourself.
Jacob Paulsen: There's a smaller population. There's way less guns in the country,
Jacob Paulsen: and significantly more difficult to have a handgun, particularly,
Jacob Paulsen: which would be available to you when you're outside the home.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. So this one comes out of Ontario, Canada,
Riley Bowman: uh specifically the town or
Riley Bowman: city of bonn uh ontario canada
Riley Bowman: and uh this actually was multiple intruders that uh broke their way into a person's
Riley Bowman: home it's about 12 50 a.m um there's some surveillance video by the way the
Riley Bowman: video's good yeah you can you can check it out for yourself,
Riley Bowman: It's right here in this article.
Riley Bowman: This is on cp24.com. And as is the case, we always, you know,
Riley Bowman: particularly those of you that are catching the podcast, you want to check the
Riley Bowman: show notes. You can see links to these stories in the show notes.
Riley Bowman: So you can go see these things for yourself.
Riley Bowman: But you have multiple, multiple intruders, multiple that are,
Riley Bowman: you know, coming to this house, breaking into the house.
Riley Bowman: At least one of them is armed with a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: You can see it in the video. Yep.
Riley Bowman: It's very clear. And so in this case, you have the homeowner who becomes aware of the break-in,
Riley Bowman: is able to retrieve his own legally lawfully owned and stored firearm,
Riley Bowman: which by the way, means a lot in Canada compared to most places here in the US.
Riley Bowman: Just the way their laws have gone over the last number of years,
Riley Bowman: just owning and possessing a gun is a lot more difficult.
Riley Bowman: Owning the types of guns you can own is a lot different than what we are able
Riley Bowman: to own here, especially now.
Riley Bowman: And the fact that it's got to be stored properly.
Riley Bowman: I don't know this for sure, for sure, but from some things, I'm a member of a Facebook group.
Riley Bowman: Why? Just because of curiosity. And I don't do a whole lot there,
Riley Bowman: but occasionally I have perused posts.
Riley Bowman: The whole Facebook group, I can't remember what it's called,
Riley Bowman: but it's like something like Canadians for gun rights or something like that. And.
Riley Bowman: They talk about these issues in there, and that's why I check in every once
Riley Bowman: in a while, because there's some interesting things that come up,
Riley Bowman: and they talk about how, you know, gun's got to be unloaded,
Riley Bowman: it's got to be in a safe, you know, it's got to, you know, it's basically got to be locked up.
Jacob Paulsen: There's several steps to being able to deploy.
Riley Bowman: So I mentioned that because the homeowner in this case was able to retrieve
Riley Bowman: his gun, which almost certainly was, it was in a storage locker or safe or something
Riley Bowman: of some kind and unloaded.
Riley Bowman: So retrieved his gun, loaded his gun, managed to then defend himself,
Riley Bowman: his family, using that gun, striking and I think killing one of the, no,
Riley Bowman: let's see, where is it here? The status.
Jacob Paulsen: I got dropped off at a hospital. I don't remember his status.
Riley Bowman: We have so many stories we're covering today, like the ones that make it and those that don't.
Riley Bowman: But yeah, it just says he was dropped off at a hospital, the gunshot wound.
Riley Bowman: So this guy is able to do all that. And it's unfortunate that he had to go through
Riley Bowman: all those steps just to defend himself, but he was able to defend himself successfully.
Jacob Paulsen: Something that it doesn't state in the article, but when you watch a surveillance
Jacob Paulsen: video, I found noteworthy is that these three individuals, What you kind of
Jacob Paulsen: have is they pull up in a truck in the front of the house.
Jacob Paulsen: And one of the bad guys goes to the house and kind of gets his hand on the door,
Jacob Paulsen: kind of like he's ready to do the break-in.
Jacob Paulsen: And he signals the other two, like, yeah, let's do this. Like,
Jacob Paulsen: this is the house kind of thing.
Jacob Paulsen: And then they show up. And then as they force their way in, they call out police.
Riley Bowman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Police, police.
Jacob Paulsen: And so I thought that was interesting too, right? As a tactic to try and kind
Jacob Paulsen: of catch you off guard. These guys don't look like police, I assure you.
Jacob Paulsen: They look like people breaking into your house.
Jacob Paulsen: But it's not the first time we've seen that either. We've seen news stories like this before where –
Jacob Paulsen: bad guys try and masquerade as cops in order to gain entry with less resistance.
Jacob Paulsen: Yep. So, you know, I think maybe what you have here, though,
Jacob Paulsen: what I appreciate or what could be helpful for this guy, because the time from
Jacob Paulsen: these guys going in the house to coming out based on the camera surveillance
Jacob Paulsen: video is not a significant amount of time.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. So this cat retrieved his gun, got it loaded up and fired pretty fast.
Jacob Paulsen: But it could have been he had a heads up warning because he has a ring doorbell camera.
Jacob Paulsen: Yep. The surveillance video or ring type doorbell camera, the surveillance video
Jacob Paulsen: is from the doorbell cam.
Jacob Paulsen: And so maybe he's getting a motion alert. Someone's on your front porch. Oh, who's that?
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, what's going on here? I think I'm going to go grab my gun.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know what's up with this. Oh, crap. They just broke in.
Riley Bowman: Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: So anyway, a little bit of a sales pitch there for the value of having some
Jacob Paulsen: sort of motion-based camera at the front door.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Another fascinating thing about this story is the fact that you have Ontario Premier Doug Ford.
Riley Bowman: So he's basically the governor, if you will, of Ontario.
Riley Bowman: And he's congratulating the resident, the town or city of Vaughan resident who shot this intruder.
Riley Bowman: He said this, and I think it's great.
Riley Bowman: As for the person who was defending his family, he was a legal gun owner,
Riley Bowman: stored properly. Congratulations. Yeah, I'm glad you shot the guy.
Riley Bowman: Teach the rest of these robbers. these guys they need to be shot as far as i'm
Riley Bowman: concerned they're coming through the front door to hurt your family he's not
Riley Bowman: wrong about anything he goes on to.
Jacob Paulsen: Say that he wishes he'd been shot
Riley Bowman: More shot them more yeah like.
Jacob Paulsen: I wish he'd shot him more times
Riley Bowman: Yeah this is a government leader here's the thing this is what you know when
Riley Bowman: you're reading the article you get one perspective and the one perspective that
Riley Bowman: is missed big time is they're like hey you know all hail all praises you know, this guy for doing,
Riley Bowman: you know, doing so good and defending himself and his family.
Riley Bowman: You know, like, and he was doing it with a legally owned gun that was properly stored. And I'm,
Riley Bowman: Why did he have to obey those stringent laws in the first place when clearly
Riley Bowman: your strict gun control in Canada did not protect him in the first place because
Riley Bowman: you had this criminal, at least one of them.
Riley Bowman: And it kind of looks like there's two of them because one has got his hand in his waistband.
Riley Bowman: Like he's also carrying a handgun.
Jacob Paulsen: Of some sort, right?
Riley Bowman: The criminals have guns. so
Riley Bowman: that's that's to me the the true story to
Riley Bowman: this as an example is canada you ought
Riley Bowman: to look at this and be ashamed of yourselves because all the
Riley Bowman: gun control you've passed doesn't stop the criminals from
Riley Bowman: doing what they're doing and you just made it more difficult for
Riley Bowman: this homeowner to defend himself yeah he should be congratulated because he
Riley Bowman: did all that regardless despite of the laws and the requirements uh so yes kudos
Riley Bowman: all the kudos he he deserves but it shouldn't have had to be it shouldn't have
Riley Bowman: been that stringent for him that difficult that onerous in the first place.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah pretty crazy
Riley Bowman: Yeah,
Riley Bowman: Back to America, where it's a lot easier to defend yourself,
Riley Bowman: and we have no shortage of examples of people needing to do just that.
Riley Bowman: This is Raleigh, but it's being reported out of Memphis.
Riley Bowman: So Raleigh must be like a suburb or, I mean, as far as I know.
Riley Bowman: Because it says Memphis police are searching for two suspects.
Jacob Paulsen: And the website is News Channel 3 in Memphis. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: But we got two suspects accused of shooting at a father and son after breaking into their home.
Riley Bowman: Uh, so about 10 or nine 30, uh, at night. Okay.
Riley Bowman: Uh, it's kind of interesting. So there's a knock at the door and the father
Riley Bowman: and son are in the living room.
Riley Bowman: And it says that it says that the father said his son ran into his room after
Riley Bowman: telling him that someone's at the door.
Riley Bowman: So, so the father's like, Hey, someone's at the door.
Riley Bowman: Something seems off, something suspicious, whatever.
Riley Bowman: So I wanted to point that out right off the bat. Like I thought this little
Riley Bowman: detail is nice that he's like, son, uh, go to your room, get out of here kind of thing.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Riley Bowman: Right? And it's sort of like,
Riley Bowman: You know, we've, we've talked about the isolate the family, defend the room kind of concept.
Riley Bowman: This isn't a true example of that, but that's, that's part of it is where is
Riley Bowman: my family? Where are my loved ones?
Riley Bowman: Making sure they're accounted for and that they're somewhere safe,
Riley Bowman: you know, while you're focused on defending your family. Right.
Riley Bowman: And so, um, but anyway, the father then, as he approaches the door,
Riley Bowman: an armed man kicks in the door and points a handgun at him.
Jacob Paulsen: A black one specifically.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, specifically. black i mean most are black but okay just.
Jacob Paulsen: Point it out
Riley Bowman: Uh yeah points a
Riley Bowman: black handgun at him and tells him tells so the armed man
Riley Bowman: is telling the father get down um so
Riley Bowman: here's what's fascinating about this dude comes right in barging right in points
Riley Bowman: a gun at you a black one says get down and the next thing we have in the story
Riley Bowman: is it says the father runs into his bedroom and grabs a handgun and then begins
Riley Bowman: shooting at the suspect.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, so we don't have the gun on us, so there's a little lesson for that.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. But yeah, instead of complying, like someone's pointing a gun at you,
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know the distance, right?
Jacob Paulsen: Are you two feet away, 20 feet away?
Jacob Paulsen: In my house, I could be...
Jacob Paulsen: I mean, I could probably be 20 feet away from the front door and still see someone coming through it.
Jacob Paulsen: Anyway, so we don't know the distance. But, yeah, the decision's made.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, I'm not going to comply with this command to get down.
Jacob Paulsen: I'm going to run over here into my bedroom and grab my gun.
Jacob Paulsen: Don't know where the gun is in the bedroom, but must have been retrieved with relative speed.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: I would say. And turn around and start shooting at the bad guy.
Riley Bowman: Yep. And it turns out there's actually at least two bad guys because now it
Riley Bowman: says he begins shooting at the suspects. both of which run out of the home now
Riley Bowman: at this point and into a residence that says behind his.
Riley Bowman: And as of right now, Memphis police are still searching for these suspects.
Riley Bowman: Nobody injured, as far as we know, throughout this incident, which is fine.
Riley Bowman: You know, that's if a self-defense, including use of deadly force with a gun
Riley Bowman: or whatever, results in nobody getting hurt.
Riley Bowman: I'm cool with that. less cool when we
Riley Bowman: fire shots that aren't accounted for because we don't know where those go
Riley Bowman: and you know every every bullet's got an attorney attached to
Riley Bowman: it potentially but um but in this case man
Riley Bowman: some shots are fired you know seems like
Riley Bowman: a pretty gutsy call in the moment to ignore the command to get down and instead
Riley Bowman: run to your room and grab a gun but it seems to work out in his favor in this
Riley Bowman: case shots are fired the bad guys run off all is well the house is secure again
Riley Bowman: yeah well said so pretty interesting story,
Riley Bowman: Next up, what's our next one, Jacob?
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, I wasn't ready.
Riley Bowman: This one's out of Chicago.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Riley Bowman: 16-year-old armed robber.
Jacob Paulsen: This is not a home invasion. We've had a couple home invasions in a row now.
Jacob Paulsen: This one is just an on-the-street armed robbery.
Jacob Paulsen: So, dude's out and about.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know. Probably walking his dog. It seems like most of these Chicago
Jacob Paulsen: people get assaulted when they're walking dogs.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, just as he's approached. So, I mean, when I think of approached,
Riley Bowman: I'm not. I mean I guess he could be in a car and be approached but.
Jacob Paulsen: Well he could be trying to get into his car could be you know shoveling his
Jacob Paulsen: snow on a sidewalk for all I know watering his plants but he's approached by a 16 year old
Jacob Paulsen: and 16 year old's armed 16 year old boy pulls out a gun and attempts to rob
Jacob Paulsen: him police said so he takes out his own handgun and shoots him in the chest
Jacob Paulsen: so this is interesting what I find most fascinating about this is that
Jacob Paulsen: we often talk about draw speed and this idea of you know can like it's it's
Jacob Paulsen: pretty difficult to draw and fire a gun faster than the person who is just pointing
Jacob Paulsen: it at you can just press the trigger. Right.
Jacob Paulsen: So it's generally not considered a best practice without having some sort of
Jacob Paulsen: distraction or some way to purchase some time.
Jacob Paulsen: Our friend John likes to say, you know, it's not your turn yet.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. You got to wait your turn.
Jacob Paulsen: So, so I don't know the specifics. I mean, maybe something did happen that created
Jacob Paulsen: an opportunity, but one way or another, you know, guns and guns getting pointed
Jacob Paulsen: at you, by the 16-year-old who wants the money,
Jacob Paulsen: and you say, sure, here you go, and bam, you deploy the gun and get a shot off.
Riley Bowman: That's pretty much the story. But, you know, some interesting things from this.
Riley Bowman: We are dealing with a 16-year-old suspect. Okay. This continues to be a theme.
Riley Bowman: We've covered a lot of stories over the last couple of years where it just is
Riley Bowman: very common that we are seeing armed robbery attempts, carjacking attempts, home intrusions.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes.
Riley Bowman: That where the suspects are not adults. They are children.
Jacob Paulsen: We're going to have a 15-year-old shooter here in a minute and a different story.
Riley Bowman: Exactly. And so a 16-year-old suspect, he gets shot and he dies.
Riley Bowman: And that is unfortunate.
Riley Bowman: And chances are there's a family somewhere talking about, you know,
Riley Bowman: little Johnny who really wasn't as bad a person as what, you know,
Riley Bowman: the media is making him out to be.
Riley Bowman: But the reality is, is I don't care who you are. I don't care how old you are.
Riley Bowman: Okay. I mean, that's an overgeneralization because, you know,
Riley Bowman: I don't know. I, there's a, there's a point where I'm going to look at you and
Riley Bowman: you're, you're, what is it?
Riley Bowman: Nine-year-old kid, a seven-year-old kid, a five-year-old kid,
Riley Bowman: you know, like there's context here, obviously.
Riley Bowman: But, you know, if you are an able-bodied, uh, decently sized human being with
Riley Bowman: a gun in your hand, you are a threat to me. Yes.
Jacob Paulsen: This is hard because this is one of those scenarios where I'm sort of like,
Jacob Paulsen: I don't, I mean, I'd have to be there to know what I'd do.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. Right? Because I'd like to believe, I don't guess I have data on this,
Jacob Paulsen: but I'd like to believe that a large number of armed robberies end with no shots fired.
Jacob Paulsen: Someone just gives the dude the money and they leave.
Jacob Paulsen: Right? But we obviously know plenty of scenarios where bad guys have gotten
Jacob Paulsen: what they wanted and still decided to shoot people just for what seems to be no reason at all.
Jacob Paulsen: So if you're the victim in this scenario, how do you know?
Jacob Paulsen: How do you know if this is the scenario where the bad guy is just going to take
Jacob Paulsen: my wallet and take off or the bad guy is going to take my wallet and then shoot
Jacob Paulsen: me in the face? I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: So I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know. This is one of those where
Jacob Paulsen: I hear it and I think, I don't know. I don't know what I would do.
Jacob Paulsen: Would I just hope for the best on this one and be like, let's just hope I can
Jacob Paulsen: just cancel some cards and move on on this one?
Jacob Paulsen: Or am I like, nah, this is going to go bad.
Jacob Paulsen: This is something's up here. Whatever
Jacob Paulsen: thing is causing me to believe that money will not solve this one.
Jacob Paulsen: This is going to require me versus you.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, no, unfortunately, I do think that we have to make the assumption that
Riley Bowman: because we, the answer to what you just asked is we don't know what that other
Riley Bowman: person is going to do, what they're willing to do.
Riley Bowman: It could be as simple as, hey, no witnesses. So I'm going to,
Riley Bowman: I'm going to take you out.
Riley Bowman: I am still a little bit haunted by the Tupelo, Mississippi shooting,
Riley Bowman: convenience store shooting a few years back.
Riley Bowman: And I remember Matthew and I, uh, years ago talked about this particular incident
Riley Bowman: where, uh, the guy, you know, the, the, uh, cashier at the convenience store
Riley Bowman: did everything, did everything right.
Riley Bowman: He complied, he got down, he showed his hands, he showed him where the till
Riley Bowman: was with the money, um, all that.
Riley Bowman: The guy got what he wanted and shot him.
Riley Bowman: And and later what apparently voiced his
Riley Bowman: reasoning and he said i just wanted to see what it felt like to kill
Riley Bowman: a man yeah you know and like that that's the kind of person
Riley Bowman: that you may very well be dealing with and so uh
Riley Bowman: i i'm always going to err on the side of
Riley Bowman: caution and not making any assumptions as far
Riley Bowman: as their intent other than there's a high chance or
Riley Bowman: probability that they are going to harm me uh in
Riley Bowman: which case if i'm going to defend myself i got
Riley Bowman: to wait for my turn i gotta find an opening i gotta make an opening
Riley Bowman: i gotta create a distraction uh what because you
Riley Bowman: don't have to necessarily passively wait for your turn there's things
Riley Bowman: you might do to create an opportunity sure
Riley Bowman: and take action sure so give that some thought yeah jacob you wrote the story
Riley Bowman: uh this is our next one out of akron ohio uh title is akron road rage shooting
Riley Bowman: so we have a another road rage incident we let off today's episode with one
Riley Bowman: what this defensive gun use teaches concealed carriers.
Riley Bowman: You published this actually just a couple days ago.
Jacob Paulsen: This one's a little bit bizarre. And there's some facts in here that actually
Jacob Paulsen: don't reconcile really well for me, but it is what it is.
Jacob Paulsen: So you have a DoorDash driver. He's out making deliveries, I assume.
Jacob Paulsen: And he's got his girlfriend with him, which, hey, if I was a DoorDash driver,
Jacob Paulsen: I think I'd totally just hang out with my girl while I was driving around.
Jacob Paulsen: That sounds like a great idea. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Why not? Like, hey, let's go make some deliveries, make some money while we hang out.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe we'll steal a couple of fries from the bag here and there.
Jacob Paulsen: I guess I shouldn't be a DoorDash driver. and I'd be stealing fries.
Riley Bowman: It's their version of a date night.
Jacob Paulsen: Anyway, they're out doing the DoorDash thing and they notice someone kind of
Jacob Paulsen: tailgating them pretty hard.
Jacob Paulsen: So they decide, hey, you know what we're going to do? We're going to pull over
Jacob Paulsen: to the side of the road and let this person pass us because they must be in a hurry.
Jacob Paulsen: They think we're driving too slow. So we're just going to do the good thing
Jacob Paulsen: and pull over and get out of the way, which is a somewhat reasonable thing.
Riley Bowman: Like that's probably the most reasonable anti-road rage thing you could do.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. It's not how most of the stories we read on this podcast go.
Riley Bowman: Like, hey, this dude seems like he's in a hurry. He's on our butt.
Riley Bowman: Well, let's just let him go past.
Jacob Paulsen: Let's just pull over.
Riley Bowman: And just be chill. Because we got all the bag fries we want.
Jacob Paulsen: Right. That's right. Bag fries, man. I'm telling you. If I was a DoorDash driver,
Jacob Paulsen: your food would not come to you complete if there were fries in the bag. Yeah.
Riley Bowman: I'm sorry. This is an interesting contrast to that other story that we led the
Riley Bowman: podcast with because that's one where eventually the person does pull over and
Riley Bowman: stop, but he's being chased down at that point.
Riley Bowman: In this case, they're like, hey, man.
Jacob Paulsen: They don't know that it's personal.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. I mean, it's just interesting because you just don't know what's going to happen.
Riley Bowman: It's just quite a contrast there in terms of outcomes.
Jacob Paulsen: There's not a perceivable conflict based on what they told police.
Riley Bowman: Correct.
Jacob Paulsen: They're just like, oh, we're just getting telegated. Let's move over. Let's person.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Now we're really burying the lead because what happens next, Jacob?
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, geez.
Jacob Paulsen: So the people tailgating the DoorDash driver are also a set of brothers.
Jacob Paulsen: Speaking of brothers, not our first brother's road rage story here.
Jacob Paulsen: And nor do we know if there's any road rage. I shouldn't have said that. But we have brothers.
Jacob Paulsen: And they, I think, age 17 and 15.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, the 17-year-old is driving and the 15-year-old is in the passenger seat.
Jacob Paulsen: And as they pass the now pulled over DoorDash driver and his girlfriend,
Jacob Paulsen: the 15-year-old in said passenger seat opens fire. on the DoorDash driver and
Jacob Paulsen: girlfriend as they go by.
Jacob Paulsen: And the DoorDash driver...
Jacob Paulsen: With presumably impressive reaction time, decides he's getting shot at,
Jacob Paulsen: and he doesn't like that.
Jacob Paulsen: So he draws his gun, deploys it, and shoots back.
Jacob Paulsen: Now, it's not clear if the bad guy and brother were stopped when the shooting
Jacob Paulsen: happens, or if they were just literally driving on by.
Jacob Paulsen: We know that the DoorDash driver, he took shots in the windshield,
Jacob Paulsen: incoming fire, in his windshield.
Jacob Paulsen: So that presumes a certain angle of attack.
Riley Bowman: Yep.
Jacob Paulsen: And then he fired back unclear if he shot through the windshield or through a side, not clear.
Jacob Paulsen: But he fired back while stationary, not like giving chase and firing back at
Jacob Paulsen: the bad guys kind of thing.
Jacob Paulsen: The DoorDash driver then at that moment decides, okay, looks like they're gone.
Jacob Paulsen: Let's get out of here. And they drive to a Circle K, very specifically mentioned
Jacob Paulsen: in the news story, where they confirm that they're safe. They're okay.
Jacob Paulsen: Neither DoorDash guy or girlfriend are shot, and they call the cops.
Jacob Paulsen: About the same time they're calling the cops, however, the 15-year-old shooter
Jacob Paulsen: calls the cops to tell them his brother's been shot.
Jacob Paulsen: His 17-year-old getaway driver
Jacob Paulsen: brother has been shot in the back of the head, and he ends up dying.
Jacob Paulsen: And they're in a stolen car, which is the other detail that could be mentioned here.
Jacob Paulsen: So you have 17 and 15-year-old brothers steal a car, have a gun,
Jacob Paulsen: shoot at some random people who kindly got out of the way so they could drive
Jacob Paulsen: by, and 17-year-old boy takes the shot and dies.
Jacob Paulsen: Rough way to grow up as the 15-year-old who fired the shots.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Unfortunately, that's the reality of the world that we are in in many
Riley Bowman: respects. These are two juveniles.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: They've clearly stolen a vehicle. They have a gun.
Riley Bowman: And so what we're seeing more and more of is this pattern of just reckless behavior
Riley Bowman: of, hey, let's go steal a car so we can cruise around and do whatever and commit
Riley Bowman: all sorts of crimes, robberies.
Riley Bowman: You know, both of people on the street, carjackings, robbing convenience stores
Riley Bowman: and other places of business.
Riley Bowman: And you know of course that's the whole point of stealing the
Riley Bowman: car in the first place is so you have that that getaway vehicle
Riley Bowman: that can't be traced to you uh and
Riley Bowman: and all the while like what what other kind of
Riley Bowman: mischief can we cause it's sort of like a it's it's basically it's grand theft
Riley Bowman: auto you know being played out in real life that uh unfortunately a lot of these
Riley Bowman: young kids uh and some of them there's certainly going to be some some gang
Riley Bowman: affiliation that is likely to be a part of stuff like this, where it's like, you know, they got to,
Riley Bowman: fully initiated into that gang. And as part of that is they got to prove themselves
Riley Bowman: to that gang through the commission of various acts of crime and violence,
Riley Bowman: including using a gun and, you know, shooting people or whatever.
Riley Bowman: Right. And so it is sad that there are children that are growing up in a world
Riley Bowman: and in environments where that is the case, but that is the case.
Riley Bowman: And that's exactly what you don't know is going on like i i because of things
Riley Bowman: like this i i i think a lot more about what i do on the road and my interaction
Riley Bowman: with other drivers because you don't know who is another car or what they're willing to do.
Jacob Paulsen: And you don't know what their plan is they're just going to fire
Jacob Paulsen: a couple shots and then drive off yeah but you
Jacob Paulsen: all you know is there a shattered glass really loud
Jacob Paulsen: noises like uh you know
Jacob Paulsen: there's debris everywhere like there's
Jacob Paulsen: basically smoke in your face and broken glass
Jacob Paulsen: in your face and for all you know like someone's out
Jacob Paulsen: of their car and like approaching you at this point right so i
Jacob Paulsen: think hats off to the doordash driver very quickly deploys a
Jacob Paulsen: gun and gets some shots off unaware of what's
Jacob Paulsen: going on and as soon as he i would presume i i mean
Jacob Paulsen: this the way i'm seeing it my mind play out as soon
Jacob Paulsen: as he sees that the threat is gone like okay like
Jacob Paulsen: i fired those guys but they're they've driven off they're gone like
Jacob Paulsen: boom like okay cool gun away and let's go
Jacob Paulsen: get let's let's get out of here let's get off the x let's go somewhere safe
Jacob Paulsen: and call 911 like everything about our door dash drivers actions seem super
Jacob Paulsen: spot on the only problem i foresee but for him is he's probably not going to
Jacob Paulsen: be driving door dash much longer since it's against their policy for him to be armed.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I think that's a small price to pay, honestly. Oh, sure.
Jacob Paulsen: Find new employment.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah. I think you're spot on with the analysis. I think that this person
Riley Bowman: demonstrated a lot of correct actions in the heat of, in the face of pressure.
Riley Bowman: So that was pretty impressive to read about. And I really enjoyed this story.
Riley Bowman: Let's move now to Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Jacob Paulsen: Sean Six.
Riley Bowman: Sean Six. Got to talk about Sean Six.
Jacob Paulsen: Man, they want us to talk about Sean Six. You know, most news stories,
Jacob Paulsen: like the headline will be something like elderly man or man or Tulsa resident
Jacob Paulsen: shot at, you know, kind of thing.
Jacob Paulsen: And then in the news story, you get the name. but the
Jacob Paulsen: headline of this news story is sean six deadly shooting investigation details
Jacob Paulsen: from tulsa police yep and they mentioned sean six like 22 times in the in the
Jacob Paulsen: news story they even linked like a previous news story about the same you know
Jacob Paulsen: crime the same shooting and it also talks about sean six like right out of the gate apparently
Riley Bowman: This this dude is.
Jacob Paulsen: Somebody a local celebrity i mean we don't like they you're supposed to know
Jacob Paulsen: who this is and so for those you're in tulsa you should probably send us an
Jacob Paulsen: email or comment on our page and tell us who the crap sean six is that everyone's
Jacob Paulsen: supposed to know who he is yeah
Riley Bowman: The story basically goes like this it
Riley Bowman: sounds like it's a domestic situation right where uh his
Riley Bowman: boyfriend and girlfriend sean's the boyfriend he's got his girlfriend um
Riley Bowman: they're having some difficulties yeah they
Riley Bowman: live together uh and uh they're
Riley Bowman: having some difficulties and and what's being reported is different than what
Riley Bowman: the family of sean six is saying um but uh what's was officially reported and
Riley Bowman: stated by police is that due to the difficulties between Sean and his girlfriend,
Riley Bowman: he grabs some belongings and moves out of the home.
Riley Bowman: Or I don't know if it's a home or apartment or what. But he moves out.
Riley Bowman: Later that day, that night, I think he goes back,
Riley Bowman: uh to or actually no it says it's early and
Riley Bowman: early tuesday morning on the day this happens so it's
Riley Bowman: in it's in the early morning um but he
Riley Bowman: goes back to the home uh apparently to
Riley Bowman: maybe collect some more belongings or maybe he's
Riley Bowman: i don't know we don't know exactly all the motive but he goes back and
Riley Bowman: during the time that he is away the girlfriend has a
Riley Bowman: friend presumably is it a male friend maybe
Riley Bowman: that's unclear yeah but she has a friend yep
Riley Bowman: who comes and stays there with
Riley Bowman: her um and uh you
Riley Bowman: know and so yeah she she's got
Riley Bowman: somebody there with her uh sean apparently
Riley Bowman: is not happy about whatever is happening or
Riley Bowman: taking place uh basically he he
Riley Bowman: you know she has changed the locks by the way of
Riley Bowman: the home while he's gone while he's gone so again he's moved
Riley Bowman: out and she's like we are done locks are changed so he can't get back into the
Riley Bowman: house um and uh so he tries to break his way into the house and he successfully
Riley Bowman: does yeah he gets in there and then starts threatening the girlfriend and this
Riley Bowman: other person that's in the home uh and that's when he gets shot yeah presumably.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe by the friend
Riley Bowman: Yeah again some of the details there it.
Jacob Paulsen: Sounds to me sort of like uh yeah my crazy boyfriend if he comes back here i'm
Jacob Paulsen: scared so i'm gonna call up my friend who's got a gun knows how to use it my
Jacob Paulsen: friend's gonna come over and he's got the gun or she's got whatever and yeah
Jacob Paulsen: oh there's the bad boyfriend breaking in like you know do the thing i asked
Jacob Paulsen: you to come over here to do protect me
Jacob Paulsen: That's how it feels to me.
Riley Bowman: Right, right. That's kind of, I mean, that would be one plausible explanation.
Jacob Paulsen: Sure.
Riley Bowman: Maybe this is a man that she was cheating on her boyfriend with. Sure. I don't know.
Jacob Paulsen: We don't even know whose house it is.
Riley Bowman: It doesn't even matter, though. Those details don't matter because what you
Riley Bowman: have is Sean moves out of the house.
Riley Bowman: Girlfriend is staying there. She is now, like, that's her habitation.
Jacob Paulsen: Habitation.
Riley Bowman: Glowing thing. Right? Like, he's not welcome there. She's made that apparent by changing locks.
Riley Bowman: So either way, he breaks his way into the house. That is, in most states under
Riley Bowman: the law, unlawful entry.
Riley Bowman: And it does state here, Jacob, that he bypasses the girlfriend and goes back
Riley Bowman: and finds the shooter, who's presumably a man, which is, he's located in the back bedroom.
Riley Bowman: And then that's where Sean gets shot. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: I appreciate, this is an interesting phrase from Captain Muhlenberg,
Jacob Paulsen: I presume captain of the police department.
Jacob Paulsen: He says, if you boil away the emotional stuff, then we are talking about the
Jacob Paulsen: actual situation where he kicks in the door, goes after somebody,
Jacob Paulsen: then he gets shot by that person.
Riley Bowman: And in Oklahoma, like many other states, with castle doctrine type laws,
Riley Bowman: that's pretty clear cut.
Riley Bowman: I mean, that is a home intrusion, an unlawful entry into a home.
Riley Bowman: And if you're going after a person, that constitutes a threat against a person
Riley Bowman: or any other occupant of that home.
Riley Bowman: I mean, how it would be defined here in Colorado is unlawful entry into a dwelling.
Riley Bowman: And when a reasonable belief is that that unlawfully entered person might harm
Riley Bowman: anybody in the dwelling,
Riley Bowman: that's basically what has to exist for use of deadly force in defense.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, pretty much threshold.
Riley Bowman: Basically, the captain of the police is saying this is a clear-cut case.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it talks about investigation still ongoing.
Riley Bowman: Sure, sure, sure. there's.
Jacob Paulsen: Some things like they're still getting you know still investigating still getting
Jacob Paulsen: you know gathering facts but the basic fact pattern that's looks like
Riley Bowman: That's what i hear when i when you read his words is like dude broke in dude
Riley Bowman: went after somebody dude get shot yeah it's like.
Jacob Paulsen: That that's that's how this goes
Riley Bowman: Down so poor uh sean six again whoever he is i don't mean to make light of these
Riley Bowman: kinds of things however we jacob and i even we read so many stories and it is
Riley Bowman: kind It's amusing when you see these different patterns in stories.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, when there's a departure from the norm.
Riley Bowman: And this one just made such a big point to Sean Six, Sean Six, Six, Six.
Jacob Paulsen: Six. He's got a cool name. He could be a local celebrity. Maybe he's like an MMA fighter in town.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: Maybe he's got a band. He's a great musician.
Riley Bowman: I don't know. Yep. Oh, I think I just closed this.
Jacob Paulsen: We could Google it, but we didn't.
Riley Bowman: Right.
Riley Bowman: I think I just closed the story that we were going to talk about next.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, this is the Virginia Clinic.
Riley Bowman: Ah, yes. Oh, this is a doozy.
Jacob Paulsen: This is an interesting one. This has got a rather unique element that we're not used to saying.
Riley Bowman: It does.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, I said Virginia. I don't know. My brain.
Riley Bowman: Oh, I see.
Jacob Paulsen: It's a VA clinic in Georgia. Thank you. I said VA.
Jacob Paulsen: My brain just somehow stuck in Virginia, but it's a Veterans Affair Clinic.
Riley Bowman: You want some irony there? is if you zoom into the picture, Jacob,
Riley Bowman: there's a notice, no weapons, no firearms or weapons allowed on the premises.
Jacob Paulsen: Okay, well, at least two people were doing that.
Riley Bowman: You know that, well, so here's the thing. All right, so, all right,
Riley Bowman: VA's standard practice, it's a federal facility.
Riley Bowman: Don't permit firearms or weapons on property, okay?
Riley Bowman: That's the thing. It's posted. I've seen it many times at VA clinics.
Riley Bowman: Uh but va clinics can be a variety of things meaning you know they can be they
Riley Bowman: look different depending on where you are okay there are very large uh.
Riley Bowman: You know, VA facilities. Uh, we've got one here in like Aurora,
Riley Bowman: Colorado, huge VA. I mean, it's, it is a hospital. Okay.
Riley Bowman: Uh, it is a, an extensive campus. Uh, and that whole property and everything
Riley Bowman: is the VA and it gets posted that like, you don't, you're not supposed to be
Riley Bowman: on the property with a firearm.
Riley Bowman: There's a similar, uh, smaller facility up near kind of where I live.
Riley Bowman: It's more of an office, but there are some clinic type stuff there.
Riley Bowman: Again, the whole property, like the building, the land, everything is owned
Riley Bowman: by the federal government.
Riley Bowman: It's operated by the federal government. But you also have instances where a
Riley Bowman: clinic like this might be located. I don't know for sure. I haven't looked this up.
Riley Bowman: But it could be that it is in a leased building or they have leased space in
Riley Bowman: a building to where you go into the clinic, you're not supposed to have a gun,
Riley Bowman: but the parking lot and the area around the property around might be permissible to have a gun.
Riley Bowman: So I'm just pointing that out to make, you know, a distinction here as to why,
Riley Bowman: because what you're going to have is an armed civilian who is on the premises.
Riley Bowman: It sounds like he's outside the building.
Riley Bowman: So as far as we know, he could be legally carrying and, you know, in possession of a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: Unclear.
Riley Bowman: But we don't know for sure. But kind of a secondary point to What I was saying
Riley Bowman: is you should be aware of the laws and the rules for where you are.
Jacob Paulsen: Certainly what we know is the bad guy in this case actively ignored said gun-free zone restriction.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes. Because the bad guy was there for a mental health consultation.
Jacob Paulsen: And we use the word bad guy also very liberally.
Jacob Paulsen: We don't know anything about these people or what their state of mind is or
Jacob Paulsen: what's going on. But we know that he was there for a mental health consultation. We know he had a gun.
Riley Bowman: Like what it sounds like this man was in crisis and he needed help.
Riley Bowman: And he went to a – it's hard to say if he went there to obtain help or if he
Riley Bowman: went there to commit a crime.
Riley Bowman: And if he went there to get help but in the course of that, for whatever reason, his emotional state,
Riley Bowman: elevated and he became you know out of control and then retrieved a gun but
Riley Bowman: either way he it's and it's not clear about what happens when he you know begins shooting yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: It just says that he was there for a walk-in mental health consultation 1 30
Jacob Paulsen: p.m and said that uh while he's there he He shoots Nick Cruz,
Jacob Paulsen: who is working as a social work case manager at the clinic.
Riley Bowman: Let's see.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know. I don't think we got more detail than that.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Oh, there it is. Yeah. Okay. So he does shoot the one individual. Okay.
Riley Bowman: He then walks outside of the VA facility, and it's then that he is encountered
Riley Bowman: by law enforcement. Okay. They're responding.
Riley Bowman: And, and this is this fascinating part of the story, an armed civilian who it
Riley Bowman: says was already on scene.
Jacob Paulsen: So there's enough time there for someone to hear shots and call the cops,
Jacob Paulsen: call 911, whatever, and for cops to respond. We don't know how far they had to respond.
Jacob Paulsen: Could it have been 60 seconds? Could have been. Could it have been three, five minutes?
Jacob Paulsen: Could have been. So maybe we shoot the social caseworker and then we walk around
Jacob Paulsen: and we realize, oh, my gosh, what have I done?
Jacob Paulsen: I don't know. But there's some period of time that has to elapse to allow that
Jacob Paulsen: by the time the BG exits the building, responding law enforcement is arriving.
Jacob Paulsen: They're like, oh, he's got the gun. That's the guy.
Jacob Paulsen: And at the same time, law enforcement starts to engage. We have an armed citizen who's there.
Jacob Paulsen: In my mind, I guess I'm picturing like a parking lot of the VA clinic.
Jacob Paulsen: That's what's roped off in the image.
Jacob Paulsen: And so the armed citizen is like, it's got a gun.
Jacob Paulsen: And i don't know if he's just like hey cops are shooting at him cool
Jacob Paulsen: i'm in you know or if he's like doesn't even realize
Jacob Paulsen: the cops are there at all maybe and he's just like hey someone's walking out
Jacob Paulsen: they got a gun and they're swinging it around and i heard
Jacob Paulsen: gunshots a minute ago like oh dang like i better better engage
Jacob Paulsen: here i don't know you know what what the perception of the armed citizen is
Jacob Paulsen: But what is true to your point is that the cops engage the BG alongside the
Jacob Paulsen: bad guy and the armed citizen does as well alongside the cops.
Riley Bowman: It says there was an exchange of gunfire between the police officers and the armed citizen.
Riley Bowman: I mean, no. Okay. Not between them, but with both of those, the cops and this
Riley Bowman: armed citizen that shoot the bad guy.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes. He's dead. He's done.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is such a fascinating story because,
Riley Bowman: you know, how often do we hear from people?
Riley Bowman: And certainly we are very much aware of good guys that get shot by cops.
Riley Bowman: I mean, we had something happen in Arvada just a few years ago.
Riley Bowman: Um which was a case of you know mistaken identity as far
Riley Bowman: as like dude thought that was the bad guy he shot
Riley Bowman: who he thought was the bad guy that can happen it is
Riley Bowman: extremely rare uh it's
Riley Bowman: pretty isolated in sense yeah there's there very that's perfect description
Riley Bowman: isolated incidents uh and meanwhile we have an example here of an armed citizen
Riley Bowman: right alongside with cops like how'd they know who he was but they apparently i mean he's.
Jacob Paulsen: Shooting the right direction i guess I mean, we don't know all the particulars
Jacob Paulsen: of what they observed and how they made determinations,
Jacob Paulsen: but we have more examples of cops not shooting good guys with guns than we do
Jacob Paulsen: of cops shooting good guys with guns by far.
Jacob Paulsen: This could go in that category of it worked out.
Riley Bowman: Yeah.
Riley Bowman: Well, we're over an hour, but we've got two more important stories to talk about.
Jacob Paulsen: All right.
Riley Bowman: Okay. First up, Old Dominion University shooting. Okay.
Riley Bowman: This is ROTC professor and students that are involved. Okay.
Riley Bowman: So what happens is you have Army Lieutenant Colonel Brandon Shaw.
Riley Bowman: He's the victim in this case. Well, of course, all the other ROTC students and
Riley Bowman: cadets that are there are also victims. But he's the one that unfortunately gets shot.
Riley Bowman: He's in the middle of teaching a class in the ROTC program at the school.
Riley Bowman: And that's when the bad guy walks in armed.
Riley Bowman: And it says here that the bad guy asked if it was an ROTC class.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, he confirms. Yeah. Is this the room I thought I was in?
Riley Bowman: Yeah, which, I mean, it probably was pretty clear. In my experience,
Riley Bowman: ROTC students, especially in a class with an ROTC instructor,
Riley Bowman: they're going to most certainly be in uniform.
Riley Bowman: But anyway, he asks, is this ROTC class? And yep, okay, it is.
Riley Bowman: He shouts, Allahu Akbar, and opens fire and shoots and kills Lieutenant Colonel
Riley Bowman: Brandon Shaw right there in the class.
Riley Bowman: Immediately, multiple students jump on this man, attack him, subdue him.
Riley Bowman: And by the way, Jacob, this is fascinating to me. I don't know.
Riley Bowman: It's probably because it doesn't feel very politically correct or something.
Riley Bowman: But one of the students pulls out a knife and stabs this guy.
Riley Bowman: And this is one of the few sources I could find of a legit source that actually
Riley Bowman: states, like, student stabbed gunman.
Riley Bowman: And I wanted to highlight that because I get tired of whitewashing these,
Riley Bowman: you know, the language surrounding events like this, especially where something heroic happens.
Riley Bowman: And that's basically what I saw happening in the media surrounding this is these
Riley Bowman: students deserve to be held up and praised for their actions because they took heroic actions.
Riley Bowman: And part of that was you had a violent man willing to commit murder who very,
Riley Bowman: it was obviously, I mean, there, there was some kind of terroristic component to this.
Jacob Paulsen: Sure.
Riley Bowman: Right. By nature of, of, of how he conducted it, that he was targeting,
Riley Bowman: it appears, the RTC students and or professor.
Riley Bowman: So a military, you know, representative, if you will.
Riley Bowman: Uh, and, uh, you know, we've learned since then that, you know,
Riley Bowman: this man was, was involved with police in the past for, for some other, uh,
Riley Bowman: uh, uh, situations that again, he, he was influenced by foreign,
Riley Bowman: uh, terrorist organizations. Okay.
Riley Bowman: But you have these students that did remarkable things, these ROTC cadets that
Riley Bowman: jumped on this man and did what they had to do.
Riley Bowman: And one of those things was, I mean, that's an ugly fight, man.
Riley Bowman: But pulling out your knife and stabbing a guy like, okay, like there you go.
Riley Bowman: You deserve to be given credit for taking that kind of action.
Riley Bowman: And I'm proud of these guys for doing what they did.
Riley Bowman: Because, I mean, who knows what would happen next. I mean, the guy shoots their
Riley Bowman: instructor, I mean, chances are they're next. You know?
Jacob Paulsen: I love some of the language in this article. And by the way,
Jacob Paulsen: these guys go on to be awarded medals, these ROTC students.
Jacob Paulsen: Like, they are very much so awarded for their actions.
Jacob Paulsen: But here's my favorite one from Dominic Evans, special agent in charge of the
Jacob Paulsen: agency's Norfolk field office. As he says, multiple students attacked him,
Jacob Paulsen: one stabbed him, and then the students, quote, rendered him no longer alive, end quote.
Jacob Paulsen: So they rendered the attacker no longer alive. Yes. Yes.
Riley Bowman: Again, very politically correct-sounding language. It is somewhat entertaining
Riley Bowman: to hear that instead of, and killed him. You know, like that's just too direct.
Jacob Paulsen: Apparently. No, no. Rendered him no longer alive. Not an alive person. Yeah, yeah.
Riley Bowman: They unalived him.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, I do want to highlight these cadets. As you mentioned,
Riley Bowman: that is a follow-up article that is also included in the show notes.
Riley Bowman: There is a total of eight, at least eight of them, because it says they're unidentified, it says.
Riley Bowman: But a Facebook post from the U.S.
Riley Bowman: Army Cadet Command highlighted their actions,
Riley Bowman: and eight were awarded meritorious service medals, and two were awarded Purple
Riley Bowman: Hearts, which tells you that at least two of these cadets were injured in the
Riley Bowman: course of their actions. yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: To some degree
Riley Bowman: Yeah so remarkable um
Riley Bowman: action that you took gentlemen if you happen to hear this i
Riley Bowman: commend you i thank you we need more men like
Riley Bowman: you and women uh but we need more men like you
Riley Bowman: in this world willing to jump up and
Riley Bowman: go to action title this episode by the way is when
Riley Bowman: to run toward danger when to run toward the threat um generally we you know
Riley Bowman: want to avoid getting into fights and generally want to avoid having to use
Riley Bowman: deadly force but there is a time and a place where it's like no it's go time
Riley Bowman: and you need to know what those times and places are yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: When someone walks into your classroom and is standing in the only only entrance
Jacob Paulsen: exit of the room and start shooting people i suppose that's one of those
Riley Bowman: Moments yep and these young men did exactly that,
Riley Bowman: Finally, it brings us to the shooting, which happened on the same day in Michigan
Riley Bowman: at the Temple Israel Synagogue.
Riley Bowman: This, of course, got a lot of attention. It hit the media cycle pretty hard and heavy at the time.
Riley Bowman: It was a very unfortunate event.
Riley Bowman: The one fortunate thing is that nobody in that synagogue was actually killed. I don't know.
Riley Bowman: It's still a little unclear to me if there was anybody that was injured or if
Riley Bowman: there's a number associated with that, but nobody was killed,
Riley Bowman: which is just remarkable.
Riley Bowman: And, and I, I, I use this article, this link, Jacob, because it really shows
Riley Bowman: the level of devastation that occurred because it's hard to kind of picture it.
Riley Bowman: You hear the stories and the reports and you're like, okay, so it doesn't sound
Riley Bowman: like, like on the one hand, it's like, it sounds like a big deal.
Riley Bowman: On the other hand, it's like, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal. you know but uh
Riley Bowman: this this building is destroyed internally right
Riley Bowman: like it is fire be bad yeah
Riley Bowman: i mean it is it is bad so the the attacker in
Riley Bowman: this case uses vehicle a very similar tactic i might add to the uh terrible
Riley Bowman: attack and shooting that happened at a church jesus christ latter-day saints
Riley Bowman: building uh last fall um where that one obviously went uh pretty pretty poorly as far as the number of,
Riley Bowman: you know, four people killed and a bunch of people severely injured.
Riley Bowman: And that entire building destroyed and burnt to the ground because that man
Riley Bowman: rammed the building with his truck. It was loaded with fuel and other accelerants
Riley Bowman: and proceeded to shoot people and start everything on fire.
Riley Bowman: This was a similar tactic. This man drove his vehicle into the building, down the hallway.
Jacob Paulsen: It looks like a copycat game.
Riley Bowman: Yeah, right? And this happened less than an hour, I think, away from where that
Riley Bowman: attack against an LDS church occurred.
Riley Bowman: Drove right down the hallway, started everything on fire.
Riley Bowman: He proceeded to open fire with a gun. And here's what I appreciate about this
Riley Bowman: incident is that Temple Israel, synagogue, security personnel,
Riley Bowman: they opened up fire on him.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah. It says, okay, it's interesting. It says they exchanged gunfire. Yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: But I perceive from everything I've consumed that he never got out of the truck.
Riley Bowman: Well, yeah.
Jacob Paulsen: I don't
Riley Bowman: Know if we know.
Jacob Paulsen: I mean if he did he got back in
Jacob Paulsen: because the incident ends when this dude realizes his own truck is on fire
Jacob Paulsen: he's in a gun fight and he takes his own life so that's how it ends
Jacob Paulsen: but yeah it's kind of intense, kind of wild so how I perceive the facts or the
Jacob Paulsen: narrative with the facts that I have is that he drives in through the door into the hallway,
Jacob Paulsen: fires a blazing, decides, hey, time for me to go shoot the people.
Jacob Paulsen: Oh, crap, I'm being engaged by the good guys.
Jacob Paulsen: Back and forth. What do I do? I'm pinned down, can't get out of the truck.
Jacob Paulsen: And then at some point, the acknowledgement basically is like,
Jacob Paulsen: I'm going to burn alive in here.
Jacob Paulsen: I can't even get out of the own fire I just started.
Jacob Paulsen: So take my life. that's how i perceive the narrative yeah i love this
Riley Bowman: Uh yeah um hard to hard to know for sure but uh,
Riley Bowman: Regardless, the folks there at the synagogue are also heroes because one,
Riley Bowman: you had several of the security personnel on site that did engage him with gunfire
Riley Bowman: that made it clear that they were not going to go down without a fight.
Riley Bowman: And the other heroes are the fact that they got everybody out of that building in one piece.
Riley Bowman: All the children, there's like 140 kids, I think, in this building.
Riley Bowman: All those children, they got out.
Riley Bowman: The teachers, the staff, everybody there got out of that building.
Riley Bowman: The only person that perished was the man that launched the attack in the first place.
Riley Bowman: A horrible, horrible attack that, again, also seems to have,
Riley Bowman: it's quite clear, actually, in this case, it was not just politically.
Jacob Paulsen: But it's a hate crime.
Riley Bowman: But it was a hate crime committed against, he was targeting Jews there in the
Riley Bowman: synagogue. specifically. So, um,
Riley Bowman: Anyway, I want to recognize those that were there that committed heroic actions,
Riley Bowman: incredibly heroic actions to stop,
Riley Bowman: minimize this attack, lead to that man committing suicide, and then proceed
Riley Bowman: to get everybody out of the building alive.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, no, well, preparedness paid off in this case. Good work.
Riley Bowman: Yep. So, man, you know, the other big takeaway from all this,
Riley Bowman: Jacob, today is I'm just thinking more and more all the time about the world we're in.
Riley Bowman: You could say evolving tactics. It's not necessarily like we've seen people
Riley Bowman: use vehicles, you know, as a tool, as part of an attack.
Riley Bowman: I mean, you even had that incident, what, Mardi Gras or whatever,
Riley Bowman: where the guy drove his pickup down the street, you know, and took out a bunch of people.
Riley Bowman: So, like, vehicles being used as weapons is nothing new. It's been done for a long time.
Riley Bowman: But we've seen a couple of attacks pretty close, you know, together chronologically,
Riley Bowman: specifically against houses of worship.
Jacob Paulsen: Yes.
Riley Bowman: Where the tactic seems to be driving vehicles into the building and commencing an attack.
Jacob Paulsen: Yeah, I think that two in a row, so to speak, leads to a world where those who
Jacob Paulsen: have responsibility to be prepared for these types of incidents might want to
Jacob Paulsen: consider what that looks like in their training and in their tactics and in
Jacob Paulsen: their physical security as well.
Riley Bowman: Henry commenting on Facebook, definitely have to have that switched on mentality. And yeah, that's...
Riley Bowman: That's exactly what I'm saying, you know, that I've been switched on a lot more, um, as of late.
Riley Bowman: So it's something that we all ought to be doing and being prepared and have
Riley Bowman: a plan in place for any situation you might find yourself in.
Riley Bowman: We've actually talked about a lot of different things that, you know,
Riley Bowman: are great examples where we can use those to help create better plans for ourselves.
Jacob Paulsen: Well said.
Riley Bowman: Yeah. Well, it's time to wrap up. Today's episode, again, brought to you by CCW Safe.
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