WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.277 This is the Concealed Carry Podcast, Season 13, Episode 6. 00:00:15.217 --> 00:00:16.757 And welcome to Concealed Carry 00:00:16.757 --> 00:00:21.357 Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network, brought to you by HK. 00:00:22.277 --> 00:00:27.617 Today is February 4th, 2026, as of the recording of this episode. 00:00:27.617 --> 00:00:29.577 I am your host, 00:00:29.697 --> 00:00:33.137 Riley Bowman. I'm pleased to be here with you, and I've got another special 00:00:33.137 --> 00:00:36.497 episode for you today. I'm thrilled to bring to you. 00:00:36.677 --> 00:00:41.137 I've actually got another interview that I recorded at SHOT Show 2026 00:00:41.137 --> 00:00:42.157 Just a couple weeks ago. 00:00:42.757 --> 00:00:50.297 This one is with a multiple-time New York Times bestselling author, John Gilstrap. 00:00:51.017 --> 00:00:55.177 And in this episode, we get into talking about some of his latest books, 00:00:55.437 --> 00:01:00.917 including his newest release, which is not quite out yet, but will be like next 00:01:00.917 --> 00:01:05.337 month, I think, March, 2026, a book called Scorched Earth. 00:01:05.517 --> 00:01:08.957 And I'm actually holding right here in my hands. He was very kind, 00:01:09.077 --> 00:01:15.257 very generous and gifted to me and Jacob a pre-release copy of Scorched Earth. 00:01:15.477 --> 00:01:18.517 I nicely autographed it for us. Very, very kind. 00:01:18.517 --> 00:01:21.477 And I started reading this this week And 00:01:21.477 --> 00:01:25.397 it's fantastic Like all of his books Super action-packed 00:01:25.397 --> 00:01:29.417 Fast-paced reading If you enjoy thrillers 00:01:29.417 --> 00:01:32.397 like this Then this is the book for you And 00:01:32.397 --> 00:01:35.157 this is the reason why we interviewed John too He is 00:01:35.157 --> 00:01:38.537 a gun guy And he understands guns He knows how to talk about guns He knows how 00:01:38.537 --> 00:01:42.897 to write about guns And put those elements into his books In a believable manner 00:01:42.897 --> 00:01:47.657 Which we really appreciate And he's a friend to the industry and we should be 00:01:47.657 --> 00:01:52.477 supporting people in the industry like this fantastic author, John Gilstrap. 00:01:52.697 --> 00:01:55.477 I do got a couple of sponsor messages and we'll talk a little bit more about 00:01:55.477 --> 00:01:56.777 this episode in a moment. 00:01:57.383 --> 00:01:59.763 Today's episode was recorded in the HK booth 00:01:59.763 --> 00:02:00.363 At SHOT Show. 00:02:00.543 --> 00:02:05.383 Thank you so much, HK, for your support of us and the podcast and making everything 00:02:05.383 --> 00:02:08.883 we do possible, especially the podcast and this episode. 00:02:09.523 --> 00:02:13.403 Sat right there in the front center of the booth, right on the SHOT Show floor 00:02:13.403 --> 00:02:16.183 in front of everybody and recorded this interview with John. Had a great time. 00:02:16.323 --> 00:02:20.583 He was a wonderful guest on the podcast, and it was made possible thanks to HK. 00:02:21.483 --> 00:02:26.803 John's a huge fan of HK guns and features them quite extensively in his books. 00:02:27.183 --> 00:02:32.763 So it was an appropriate setting for this interview, and we just had a great time together. 00:02:33.023 --> 00:02:37.883 Guys, please support HK. Consider going to their website, hk-usa.com, 00:02:37.903 --> 00:02:42.003 to learn more about their products and why you want to use them. 00:02:42.103 --> 00:02:43.523 I mean, their pistols are amazing. 00:02:43.663 --> 00:02:47.003 They're the best in the industry, and, I mean, they work. 00:02:47.203 --> 00:02:50.743 They're super reliable. They're heavily tested, well-engineered. 00:02:50.923 --> 00:02:55.183 These are guns for serious users that really care about their products working 00:02:55.183 --> 00:02:57.003 in life-or-death situations. 00:02:57.683 --> 00:03:01.623 HK is also at the Great American Outdoor Show. As you are listening to this, 00:03:01.723 --> 00:03:04.663 I think that show will probably have been kicked off and started. 00:03:04.843 --> 00:03:09.503 It runs February 7th to the 15th in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. 00:03:09.923 --> 00:03:16.183 And HK, their booth is booth number 488. So if you're able to go to the Great 00:03:16.183 --> 00:03:19.823 American Outdoor Show, if you're anywhere near the Harrisburg area or you plan 00:03:19.823 --> 00:03:23.463 on traveling there, please stop by booth 488 and say hello to 00:03:23.463 --> 00:03:24.443 The lovely folks 00:03:24.443 --> 00:03:27.163 At HK. You could stop in and say hello to Angela. 00:03:27.303 --> 00:03:30.483 She's always at their shows and she's wonderful. And just, hey, 00:03:30.663 --> 00:03:32.483 say that Riley and Jacob and the 00:03:32.483 --> 00:03:36.323 Concealed Carry folks sent you guys over there to stop by and say hello. 00:03:36.543 --> 00:03:40.183 We'd really appreciate that. HK-USA.com, again, their website. 00:03:40.183 --> 00:03:43.383 Today's episode also sponsored by... 00:03:44.744 --> 00:03:46.064 Concealedcarry.com 00:03:46.064 --> 00:03:50.224 Forward slash shop. I'm going to just give you the short link to go straight to 00:03:50.224 --> 00:03:52.184 The store at concealedcarry.com. 00:03:52.324 --> 00:03:55.064 When's the last time you visited the store? If it's been a while, 00:03:55.244 --> 00:03:58.184 then there's a bunch of new stuff there that you maybe haven't seen before. 00:03:58.184 --> 00:04:03.924 We have worked hard in recent weeks and months to update the store and add a bunch of new products. 00:04:04.104 --> 00:04:04.924 We've got stuff that, 00:04:05.064 --> 00:04:09.984 I mean, we're really fleshing out now our optics lineup. If you're looking for a pistol optic 00:04:09.984 --> 00:04:10.704 Or something like that, 00:04:10.864 --> 00:04:15.264 We've got more options now than ever before. All across the board. 00:04:15.404 --> 00:04:21.684 We got stuff from Trijicon, from Holosun, from a new player, Ocite. 00:04:21.844 --> 00:04:25.164 They're making waves in the industry now and a bunch of others. 00:04:26.164 --> 00:04:29.484 Also lights. We got a bunch of options now for lights. 00:04:29.844 --> 00:04:32.744 We've got some handheld lights. We also got a bunch of weapon mounted lights 00:04:32.744 --> 00:04:34.304 if that's something you're interested in. 00:04:34.864 --> 00:04:38.504 So guys, please head on over to concealedcarry.com forward slash shop. 00:04:39.264 --> 00:04:43.584 That'll take you straight to the main shop page of the website and we i mentioned 00:04:43.584 --> 00:04:48.124 this last last episode but we've updated the search tool on the site right at the top if 00:04:48.124 --> 00:04:50.284 You have a product you'd like to search for 00:04:50.284 --> 00:04:55.444 Uh you can do that even easier than ever before you can actually filter to products 00:04:55.444 --> 00:04:58.744 and you know i can just type in right now i'll do it right now with you so let's 00:04:58.744 --> 00:05:04.924 just say i'm looking for a weapon light and let's see what we come up with all 00:05:04.924 --> 00:05:05.844 right all right all right Yeah, 00:05:05.984 --> 00:05:07.204 We've got a TLR1, 00:05:07.524 --> 00:05:08.944 We've got a TLR7X, 00:05:09.124 --> 00:05:11.624 We've got a Holosun PIDHC, 00:05:11.864 --> 00:05:16.324 Some new Surefire options, a Surefire XC3 Lite. 00:05:16.464 --> 00:05:19.204 Okay, really, really cool new product. We were actually looking at those at 00:05:19.204 --> 00:05:23.244 SHOT Show just a while back there. And so tons of options here, 00:05:23.344 --> 00:05:24.684 All available on our site that 00:05:24.684 --> 00:05:25.324 You can purchase 00:05:25.324 --> 00:05:29.184 Right away. Guys, your purchase of products at concealedcarry.com 00:05:29.184 --> 00:05:33.844 Supports us and obviously makes this whole thing possible, 00:05:33.844 --> 00:05:34.164 Guys. 00:05:34.164 --> 00:05:38.384 So appreciate your support of us and of the podcast. And thank you for stopping 00:05:38.384 --> 00:05:39.904 by the concealedcarry.com store. 00:05:41.468 --> 00:05:44.588 Also an honorary sponsor, of course, is John Gilstrap himself. 00:05:45.148 --> 00:05:48.228 The episode wouldn't be possible without him. And you can go to his website, 00:05:49.288 --> 00:05:55.268 johngilstrap.com, G-A-O-H-N-G-I-L-S-T-R-A-P.com. 00:05:55.928 --> 00:05:57.008 And you'll want to 00:05:57.008 --> 00:06:02.568 Pre-order or get on his list for getting a new copy of his latest book, Scorched Earth. 00:06:02.968 --> 00:06:05.128 So as I mentioned in the beginning episode, 00:06:05.348 --> 00:06:06.888 He's a fantastic author. 00:06:07.108 --> 00:06:11.488 He's been very successful for a couple of decades now. he has sold rights to 00:06:11.488 --> 00:06:12.648 Several of his books for 00:06:12.648 --> 00:06:18.788 Movies and TV shows and his books are just super fun and exciting and fast paced reads. 00:06:18.968 --> 00:06:25.408 You will really enjoy them if you're into the action thriller genre and especially coming from a guy 00:06:25.408 --> 00:06:26.228 Who's a friend of the Second 00:06:26.228 --> 00:06:31.668 Amendment and loves gun stuff and loves HK Pistols he's your friend. 00:06:31.808 --> 00:06:35.208 You're going to want to read his books if you're not familiar already pick up 00:06:35.208 --> 00:06:41.288 his latest Scorched Earth or start at the beginning and go back and read all of his books. 00:06:41.588 --> 00:06:45.508 They're fantastic. I'm relatively new-wer to them. 00:06:45.528 --> 00:06:48.808 As I mentioned in the episode and the interview, I just got started listening 00:06:48.808 --> 00:06:54.888 on an audio book to my first John Gilstrap novel just a little bit less than 00:06:54.888 --> 00:06:58.008 a month ago and have been really enjoying listening to those. 00:06:58.148 --> 00:07:02.448 And I'm enjoying right now reading this copy of Scorched Earth. 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.099 Anyway, I'm going to play back the interview now. Thanks for being here, guys. 00:07:06.299 --> 00:07:09.779 Enjoy the show, and I'll catch you on the flip side. Hey, everybody. 00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:14.279 It's Riley, and we're here at SHOT Show 2026 in the Heckler & Koch booth. 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:18.259 And I'm pleased to bring to you – well, we could say introduced to you, 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:20.119 but he's been on the podcast before, actually. 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.639 I have. And this is Mr. John Gilstrap. How are you doing, sir? 00:07:23.859 --> 00:07:29.159 I'm wonderful. I mean, I love the SHOT Show. It's just a great place to be to 00:07:29.159 --> 00:07:30.759 hang out and meet new people. 00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:35.179 100%. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with you there. It's one of my favorite parts of it. 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.779 It's just, you know, this is where my friends are at. You probably have many 00:07:38.779 --> 00:07:40.539 friends of yourself that you've met over the years. 00:07:41.099 --> 00:07:44.899 It's an annual opportunity to reconnect with those friendships. 00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:49.119 Right, and everybody, this is such a happy place. Yeah. You know, 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:52.739 it's just everybody's having a good time. Oh, yeah. And everybody's tired. Everybody's feet hurt. 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:57.499 Yeah, but what's not to love about, you know, guns, guns, guns. 00:07:57.559 --> 00:07:57.919 That's right. 00:07:58.059 --> 00:08:02.559 And, you know, good food in the evenings, hopefully. and yeah, it's a good time. 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:07.419 You were on the podcast. Jacob interviewed you for that one that time. 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:10.559 And so now it's my turn. All right. And I'm looking forward to that. 00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:16.139 He is the, you know, the consumer of all the John Gilstrap books. 00:08:16.559 --> 00:08:21.519 I am a relative newcomer. So I actually just started listening to my first one. 00:08:22.599 --> 00:08:27.519 And I had this, you know, kind of, 00:08:28.361 --> 00:08:32.621 crisis of like, well, do I start at number one or do I start with one that's 00:08:32.621 --> 00:08:36.961 more recent so we could talk about something that's more recent, right? 00:08:37.101 --> 00:08:40.481 That's maybe hitting the bookshelves or is on the bookshelves right now and 00:08:40.481 --> 00:08:43.181 of course we'll talk a little bit about the new one that you've got sitting 00:08:43.181 --> 00:08:44.441 here on the table right in front of us. 00:08:45.301 --> 00:08:47.441 So I just started listening to Zero Sum. 00:08:47.941 --> 00:08:51.261 Okay. I think that's the last book. 00:08:51.501 --> 00:08:55.501 Yeah, the most recent Jonathan Grave book, if I'm Correct. 00:08:55.801 --> 00:09:02.201 I thought about starting with the Irene Rivers one that was just published as well fairly recently. 00:09:02.481 --> 00:09:06.501 Right. That's Burren Bridges. That just came out. But it's kind of an offshoot from the grave books. 00:09:06.801 --> 00:09:10.261 Yeah, right, right. And I was like, well, I could start with that one. 00:09:10.821 --> 00:09:15.541 But let's do this zero-sum one because obviously that's the character that you've 00:09:15.541 --> 00:09:17.781 written all these books primarily about. 00:09:18.041 --> 00:09:22.101 And so it's been a really, really good listen. I'm only about halfway or so 00:09:22.101 --> 00:09:25.241 through. I was really trying to complete it before we got here, 00:09:25.341 --> 00:09:26.081 before I could talk to you. 00:09:26.161 --> 00:09:29.821 That's actually been a rule of mine with the podcast is if I'm going to talk 00:09:29.821 --> 00:09:34.261 to an author, I try to make sure I read at least one of their books. 00:09:35.601 --> 00:09:38.901 And unfortunately, I just didn't have the time to get it done in time. 00:09:38.961 --> 00:09:41.241 But I'm really enjoying what I'm hearing so far. 00:09:41.541 --> 00:09:45.141 It's thrilling. I mean, you write thrillers. I do. 00:09:45.701 --> 00:09:49.521 I do. And the stakes are always high. Right. And in this case, 00:09:49.801 --> 00:09:55.541 it's funny. I get this, obviously, I don't have an impact on national policy, right? 00:09:55.721 --> 00:10:00.541 Right. But this is where Jonathan is taking what he calls the pillow fight on 00:10:00.541 --> 00:10:03.101 drugs to be a war on drugs. 00:10:03.281 --> 00:10:05.541 Yes. And he's taking it right to the cartels. 00:10:05.861 --> 00:10:12.901 And for me, I live in West Virginia, and West Virginia is like the home of the opiate problem. 00:10:13.281 --> 00:10:19.601 And anything I can do to bring harm to the cartels, I'm all over. 00:10:19.841 --> 00:10:23.641 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a problem that's affecting a lot of different pockets 00:10:23.641 --> 00:10:26.721 in the country. I remember, I actually grew up in Idaho. 00:10:27.344 --> 00:10:34.824 And just off of I-15 that runs north out of Utah and goes right up through part of Idaho there. 00:10:35.324 --> 00:10:41.704 And my uncle, who just retired the last year or so ago from being a sheriff 00:10:41.704 --> 00:10:46.704 for quite a number of years, and a well-loved sheriff, and he did a lot of good 00:10:46.704 --> 00:10:50.044 things and worked really hard to make his community safer. 00:10:50.104 --> 00:10:53.564 And this is a relatively rural part of Idaho where he was sheriff of. 00:10:54.124 --> 00:11:00.964 But I-15 was a conduit for drug trafficking right up through there and up into Montana. 00:11:01.724 --> 00:11:06.144 And I remember him sharing some things with me about that and just kind of like, 00:11:06.264 --> 00:11:07.384 you know, it's eye-opening. 00:11:07.524 --> 00:11:11.304 You're like, I had no idea, especially like growing up in that region, 00:11:11.524 --> 00:11:15.724 how much drugs was moving up and down that interstate. 00:11:15.824 --> 00:11:18.244 He's like, oh, yeah, you know, we bus people out. 00:11:19.629 --> 00:11:21.049 Dang near every day kind of thing. 00:11:21.049 --> 00:11:25.729 And the ingenuity of the drug transporters, of where they put it, 00:11:25.869 --> 00:11:32.229 how they hide it, it's really, it's impressive. I mean, in that negative sort of way. 00:11:33.229 --> 00:11:34.429 They're really good at what they do. 00:11:34.529 --> 00:11:36.889 Well, they're good at what they do, and it's an industry. You know, 00:11:36.969 --> 00:11:44.309 I think, I don't think we, most people don't think of drug trade as a multi-billion 00:11:44.309 --> 00:11:48.069 dollar operation, but that's really what it is. and they run it accordingly. 00:11:49.709 --> 00:11:53.689 And so it's, I don't want to turn this into a political thing, 00:11:53.769 --> 00:11:58.349 but we need to make a decision. We're going to be happy with this or we're not. 00:12:00.169 --> 00:12:04.749 And I'm personally glad to see that we're taking real action against it. 00:12:04.829 --> 00:12:08.709 But again, Jonathan, he takes decisive, you're not at the end yet, 00:12:08.809 --> 00:12:10.729 but he takes decisive action. 00:12:10.829 --> 00:12:14.509 I'm already seeing that. And Jacob's actually spoken quite a bit about your 00:12:14.509 --> 00:12:18.949 books. Yes, decisive action sounds like maybe even almost an understatement. 00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:24.609 But speaking of politics, and I know you didn't want to get too political, 00:12:24.769 --> 00:12:26.749 and that's totally fine because I don't necessarily care for that either. 00:12:26.989 --> 00:12:31.329 However, early on in the book, Zero Sum, there's a reference to a particular 00:12:31.329 --> 00:12:33.429 state senator out of West Virginia. 00:12:33.749 --> 00:12:36.009 And the description in the book says, 00:12:36.535 --> 00:12:41.895 Kind of reminded me of somebody that's actually, well, until recently, 00:12:41.895 --> 00:12:45.195 a senator from West Virginia. 00:12:45.335 --> 00:12:48.975 I don't know if I read into that correctly or not, but I love that kind of stuff. 00:12:49.015 --> 00:12:51.395 When you're reading a book and you're like, it kind of sounds like they're talking 00:12:51.395 --> 00:12:55.235 About this or that or this person or that person. 00:12:55.395 --> 00:12:58.655 I have a standard answer on this, and that is I don't write politics 00:12:58.655 --> 00:13:01.775 And you can draw from what I write what you wish. 00:13:02.995 --> 00:13:09.675 But I do have fun with some of that. What I find interesting is when I get a 00:13:09.675 --> 00:13:13.815 lot of fan mail, like good fans, the vast majority is, you know, like your book. 00:13:13.995 --> 00:13:19.595 But every now and then you get the screamer who is, I've been accused of being 00:13:19.595 --> 00:13:25.895 a wild-eyed liberal and a wild-eyed conservative and a gun hater and in the 00:13:25.895 --> 00:13:29.655 pocket of the gun lobby. Right. All from the same book. 00:13:30.015 --> 00:13:34.575 Yeah. So people bring to it what they bring to life, I guess. 00:13:34.775 --> 00:13:34.915 Yes, yeah. 00:13:35.155 --> 00:13:38.655 I mean, their own personal biases. Yes. And the good news is it meant they read 00:13:38.655 --> 00:13:42.435 the book. They bought the book and they read the book and had a passionate response, right? 00:13:42.555 --> 00:13:45.275 So that's what entertainment is about. 00:13:45.415 --> 00:13:50.195 Right, right. That sounds like some of our interactions on social media comments 00:13:50.195 --> 00:13:54.355 on our channels where it's like you get some critical comments on something 00:13:54.355 --> 00:13:58.735 and it's like, well, thank you for the interaction, for feeding the algorithm. 00:13:59.115 --> 00:14:04.455 You know, it's like anyway. So, yeah, they bought the book, in other words. They read the book. 00:14:06.258 --> 00:14:11.058 So, I'm just curious. I wanted to get to know you a little bit more personally. 00:14:11.298 --> 00:14:16.258 Like, what got you started in writing in the first place? Where did I start from? 00:14:16.278 --> 00:14:19.538 I have always been a writer. My earliest memories, literally, 00:14:19.858 --> 00:14:23.038 when you pick up a pen, third, fourth grade, whenever that is, 00:14:23.198 --> 00:14:25.198 I've always written stories. 00:14:26.298 --> 00:14:31.218 And a lot of them were, you know, reproductions of what I saw on television 00:14:31.218 --> 00:14:36.218 or whatever. But the act of actually telling a story on the page has always been a passion. 00:14:36.438 --> 00:14:38.518 I never dreamed I'd make a living out of it. 00:14:39.458 --> 00:14:49.038 So my background, my professional background is I was a firefighter and paramedic, firefighter and EMT. 00:14:49.518 --> 00:14:56.158 And I also was a safety engineer where I worked in an explosives manufacturing plant. 00:14:56.738 --> 00:15:02.818 So and then I was writing in the spare time. so I didn't realize that what I 00:15:02.818 --> 00:15:06.338 was I was actually doing on the job training to be a thriller right now right 00:15:06.338 --> 00:15:08.758 I was going to say all the elements are there it. 00:15:08.758 --> 00:15:13.038 Sounds like you like things blowing up in books and so that that 00:15:13.832 --> 00:15:15.872 That suits you well, I guess I could say. 00:15:15.912 --> 00:15:20.772 Don't take this the wrong way. But I was in charge when I was working at the explosive plant. 00:15:20.852 --> 00:15:24.192 One of my duties was to get rid of old explosives. 00:15:24.372 --> 00:15:29.732 And the rules are written as such. The only way to get rid of it is to burn it or blow it up. 00:15:31.072 --> 00:15:35.992 That's a good day. It's just a good day. I'm not hurting anybody, 00:15:36.172 --> 00:15:37.052 right? It's out in the field. 00:15:37.672 --> 00:15:41.732 There's one time I started a big fire accidentally. I didn't really know what 00:15:41.732 --> 00:15:44.452 was in the pits. And I learned when it went high order. 00:15:45.752 --> 00:15:48.372 I don't know if you've heard. The only time this has happened to me, 00:15:48.532 --> 00:15:52.312 and I hesitate to tell a story at a place like SHOT Show where people have really 00:15:52.312 --> 00:15:54.772 been in a crappy situation. 00:15:55.532 --> 00:15:59.452 These burn pits are probably 100 yards from me. And there's a bunker where I 00:15:59.452 --> 00:16:02.652 could have stood, but it's got spiders and nasty stuff. 00:16:02.812 --> 00:16:05.672 So I had this remote detonator. 00:16:05.932 --> 00:16:10.112 And I was standing out there, and I'm firing a hole, push the button. 00:16:10.112 --> 00:16:12.992 And what's supposed to happen is you get this big fire, you know, big fireball. 00:16:13.672 --> 00:16:17.532 This thing was, it went up and a huge flash. And I don't know if you've ever 00:16:17.532 --> 00:16:19.312 seen a pressure wave coming at you. 00:16:21.172 --> 00:16:24.552 It's startling. You get a chance to say, oh, and that's it. 00:16:24.692 --> 00:16:25.232 Yeah, right. 00:16:27.252 --> 00:16:30.412 And then as a safety guy, my job is to put out the fires I just started. 00:16:30.672 --> 00:16:30.752 So. 00:16:33.132 --> 00:16:35.732 Well, that sounds exciting. I like, 00:16:36.364 --> 00:16:40.144 I might like blowing things up a little too much myself because I'm not going 00:16:40.144 --> 00:16:41.484 to admit to any felonies here. 00:16:41.664 --> 00:16:45.464 But when I was younger, probably statute of limitations would be passed now. 00:16:45.564 --> 00:16:48.164 But when I was a teenager, let's just say some stuff got blown up. 00:16:49.204 --> 00:16:50.744 How high did your bucket go? 00:16:51.744 --> 00:16:55.204 Yes. Yeah, I'm lucky to have some of those fingers and toes. 00:16:55.504 --> 00:16:59.744 And, you know, so, you know, yeah. Anyway, so good times. 00:17:00.724 --> 00:17:03.904 So you got started. You've been writing all your life, you basically said there. 00:17:04.464 --> 00:17:09.224 When did you write your first novel, like full-length novel? 00:17:09.524 --> 00:17:13.624 The first published novel came out when I was, well, I wrote it when I was probably 00:17:13.624 --> 00:17:16.504 35, 36, came out, and then I sold it. 00:17:16.964 --> 00:17:21.424 I wrote my first novel when I was freshman in college. 00:17:21.664 --> 00:17:25.484 Wow, very good. And it kind of sucked, but it was, you know, 00:17:25.624 --> 00:17:28.904 there were elements of it that were okay, and then there were two more after 00:17:28.904 --> 00:17:33.804 that. So a total of three novels I wrote that didn't go, you know, 00:17:33.824 --> 00:17:35.744 I didn't even try to sell them because I knew they weren't right. 00:17:35.904 --> 00:17:38.624 And then I wrote Nathan's Run, which was my first published novel. 00:17:39.024 --> 00:17:42.484 And it just, it hit the jackpot. It was an international bestseller. 00:17:43.244 --> 00:17:45.784 And so it kind of launched the new career. 00:17:46.084 --> 00:17:48.964 So tell me about those early novels that you, like you said, 00:17:49.044 --> 00:17:51.184 you wrote, but you didn't sell or anything like that. 00:17:52.424 --> 00:17:55.564 What did you learn from that process of writing those? I mean, 00:17:55.644 --> 00:17:58.604 you just said that you knew that they weren't quite right. They weren't, 00:17:58.604 --> 00:17:59.964 I guess, quite ready, let's say. 00:18:00.564 --> 00:18:04.664 But it sounds like that was kind of a... You must have learned some things from 00:18:04.664 --> 00:18:07.984 those in order to be so successful with Nathan's run. 00:18:08.244 --> 00:18:08.724 Yeah, and... 00:18:09.961 --> 00:18:14.641 I'm an avid reader. I mean, I read toothpaste tubes, right? I mean, I just read anything. 00:18:15.381 --> 00:18:20.701 And that was the case at the time. And I knew just intuitively what I was writing 00:18:20.701 --> 00:18:25.381 wasn't, I was writing thrillers, but they weren't thrilling. 00:18:25.581 --> 00:18:28.741 There were elements of it that were flat or the, it just, you know, 00:18:28.821 --> 00:18:30.501 the elements of the story didn't work. 00:18:30.681 --> 00:18:34.961 And then with Nathan's Ron, it just, it was a, I was able to hit. 00:18:34.961 --> 00:18:39.841 I think the big difference was I wrote that book as if I were telling the story 00:18:39.841 --> 00:18:43.521 to somebody as opposed to self-consciously writing a book. 00:18:44.881 --> 00:18:50.001 And once I got rid of the stiffness and I found my own voice, the story flowed. 00:18:50.081 --> 00:18:53.421 But there were stuff in each of those previous three that I've cannibalized 00:18:53.421 --> 00:18:55.601 and used in other books. Yeah. 00:18:57.376 --> 00:19:01.056 Dialogue interactions and stuff that I thought were really good. 00:19:01.196 --> 00:19:03.956 That's the encouraging part of doing this. It's like playing golf. 00:19:04.556 --> 00:19:08.056 Even if you're a terrible golfer, you get one good shot that keeps you coming back. 00:19:08.436 --> 00:19:12.236 When you're writing a book, if that's what you want to do, there are elements, 00:19:12.696 --> 00:19:15.836 there are scenes or whatever that you go, wow, that's good. 00:19:15.936 --> 00:19:18.196 It's a shame it's in the middle of a story that doesn't work. 00:19:19.076 --> 00:19:25.016 Yeah, I like that. What it reminds me of, this is when you started going down 00:19:25.016 --> 00:19:31.876 that, you know, kind of line of thinking, what it reminded me of is I'm a very avid shooter. 00:19:31.996 --> 00:19:36.136 I've been shooting a long time now and including at a fairly decent level. 00:19:36.416 --> 00:19:40.496 And so part of that journey for me has been a lot of trial and error. 00:19:41.136 --> 00:19:46.956 And I just believe that's how life is, is that we learn and we learn probably the best from failure. 00:19:47.236 --> 00:19:52.196 Yes. And so I just kind of was seeing this little common thread there. 00:19:52.336 --> 00:19:54.716 You're like, hey, I wrote this novel. I wrote a couple more. 00:19:54.976 --> 00:19:56.436 I was a freshman in college. 00:19:57.316 --> 00:20:00.916 Nothing came really of those. And then I write Nathan's Run and boom. 00:20:01.856 --> 00:20:05.876 You have to learn from mistakes. 00:20:06.256 --> 00:20:11.696 You have to recognize mistakes. Yes. And then you have to embrace them as, yes, I did that. 00:20:11.976 --> 00:20:16.996 And then improve. Make that conscious effort to improve. 00:20:16.996 --> 00:20:24.076 And that's why nobody can pick up a gun or a golf club or a pen and be a journeyman 00:20:24.076 --> 00:20:28.256 level at what they're doing without that learning process. And they have to 00:20:28.256 --> 00:20:29.716 be willing to accept the critique. 00:20:31.396 --> 00:20:34.716 And again, you talk about shooting. I'm an avid shooter too. 00:20:34.876 --> 00:20:39.356 But you become better when somebody really concentrates on what you're doing 00:20:39.356 --> 00:20:40.836 wrong. You can see what you did right. 00:20:41.036 --> 00:20:46.056 But sometimes you've hit the target and you're doing it the wrong way. 00:20:46.056 --> 00:20:48.516 And then it's the little improvements that, 00:20:49.103 --> 00:20:50.283 that help a lot. 00:20:50.703 --> 00:20:57.403 Absolutely. Who in, you know, are there other writers that have been an inspiration to you? 00:20:57.563 --> 00:21:00.043 Like, who would you look to if that was like, oh, that, you know, 00:21:00.083 --> 00:21:03.883 when I was a kid or whatever, I read these and these were really influential on me. 00:21:04.483 --> 00:21:08.663 Oh, well, growing up, you know, it was Alistair McLean and, you know, 00:21:08.683 --> 00:21:10.023 all the adventure kind of stories. 00:21:13.143 --> 00:21:16.043 The Day of the Jackal by Frederick Forsyth. 00:21:16.343 --> 00:21:16.523 Yes. 00:21:16.763 --> 00:21:21.143 That was probably, that was the first book I read And it's got some really cool gun stuff in it. 00:21:22.163 --> 00:21:26.783 That's the first book I read where I saw how a thriller was structured. 00:21:27.163 --> 00:21:32.563 Just for whatever reason, it's like I could see through, I could see the skeleton of the story. 00:21:32.863 --> 00:21:36.743 And if you think of the skeleton of the story as structure, and then the skin, 00:21:36.923 --> 00:21:39.503 I guess, to carry the analogy, is the plot. 00:21:39.823 --> 00:21:45.603 And I just saw how he used space breaks and character changes and chapter breaks. 00:21:46.203 --> 00:21:47.763 That was the first book I saw. 00:21:48.883 --> 00:21:51.583 Oh oh that's how you do it now that don't 00:21:51.583 --> 00:21:54.703 mean i could do it but you still have to have a good story but um 00:21:54.703 --> 00:21:58.143 contemporaneously i think stephen hunter oh yes 00:21:58.143 --> 00:22:04.103 was actually he's very helpful to me early on um when i you know i i had called 00:22:04.103 --> 00:22:07.943 him because he worked at the baltimore sun at the time and a buddy of mine had 00:22:07.943 --> 00:22:13.423 him as a client for a financial thing so i called him he's a here's the a film 00:22:13.423 --> 00:22:14.803 review at the Baltimore Sun. 00:22:15.043 --> 00:22:18.723 And I asked him for his agent's name. 00:22:19.477 --> 00:22:22.777 Oh, wow. And he gave it, and she rejected me, but that's fine. 00:22:23.917 --> 00:22:27.257 And then I called her back and asked for some advice, and he gave it to him, 00:22:27.277 --> 00:22:29.937 and he said, please don't ask me to read your manuscript. 00:22:30.537 --> 00:22:32.337 I said, I wouldn't do that. 00:22:32.797 --> 00:22:37.757 I was going to do that, but I'm not going to do that. And then when I called 00:22:37.757 --> 00:22:41.637 him, when Nathan's Run sold, I called him back and sort of celebrated, 00:22:41.777 --> 00:22:46.077 and he said, that's never happened before for all the people who called. 00:22:46.077 --> 00:22:49.597 So Steve's been a friend for 30 years now. 00:22:50.357 --> 00:22:56.257 And so for guys with guns, he goes to a level of detail that I don't go to because, 00:22:56.537 --> 00:22:58.377 again, I know my level of ignorance. 00:22:58.537 --> 00:23:05.077 So once you get inside the barrel and you start talking about the twists, that's not me. 00:23:05.337 --> 00:23:11.617 I don't do that. But in terms of handling and tactics and all of that, 00:23:11.817 --> 00:23:15.457 it's, you know, I've trained, I've been so fortunate. 00:23:16.517 --> 00:23:21.217 A fellow, I guess I shouldn't name names, but I wrote a non-fiction book, 00:23:21.297 --> 00:23:26.477 came out in 2006, called Six Minutes to Freedom, to be a Netflix feature next year. 00:23:27.417 --> 00:23:33.137 And it's about the, it's Operation Acid Gambit, which is the rescue of Kurt Mews in Panama. 00:23:34.043 --> 00:23:40.443 And I got, through a wild series of events, got extraordinary access to Delta Force. 00:23:41.263 --> 00:23:45.883 And the team that did it, President Bush actually, first one, 00:23:46.083 --> 00:23:50.283 the 41, intervened and allowed them to talk. The Delta guys don't talk to anybody. 00:23:50.563 --> 00:23:56.023 But I got a tour of their compound and a lot, a lot, a lot of help from them. 00:23:57.163 --> 00:24:00.623 And that, I don't know if it was a strike of jealousy or whatever. 00:24:00.623 --> 00:24:11.503 I met a guy from Dev Group, SEAL Team 6, and he gave me a tour of the Virginia Beach SEAL compound. 00:24:12.103 --> 00:24:15.323 And once you get to know these folks and you treat them well, 00:24:15.583 --> 00:24:18.563 and I don't mean nothing nefarious there. 00:24:18.623 --> 00:24:21.283 We're not talking exchanging money. Just treat them with respect. 00:24:22.263 --> 00:24:28.383 And, you know, I would never cross that line of revealing something that I've 00:24:28.383 --> 00:24:30.283 been shown either intentionally or accidentally. 00:24:31.123 --> 00:24:34.243 Because I wouldn't do that. That's just not me. 00:24:35.523 --> 00:24:42.723 So I've been a bad guy at a FDLE SWAT team exercise, which was with simunitions. 00:24:44.723 --> 00:24:48.563 Nice. Yeah, put your gun down when the SWAT team comes in. It's the lesson. Right. 00:24:48.903 --> 00:24:49.463 That stings. 00:24:50.723 --> 00:24:54.163 But one thing leads to another, right? And here I am at this podcast. 00:24:54.223 --> 00:24:59.263 You meet more people, and when you work, I'm still learning, 00:24:59.403 --> 00:25:00.243 right? Everybody's still learning. 00:25:00.403 --> 00:25:03.963 And the harder you work to get things right, the more people you meet who are 00:25:03.963 --> 00:25:07.323 willing to help you out, which leads to better quality product, 00:25:07.503 --> 00:25:11.163 which, you know, it's a constant learning process. 00:25:11.443 --> 00:25:14.103 Well, I understand that you're kind of, I mean, you've been doing this a long 00:25:14.103 --> 00:25:16.843 time now. Yeah. You've written, what is it, 00:25:16.923 --> 00:25:18.523 18, 19 books? This is 31 books. 00:25:19.063 --> 00:25:20.363 I'm way off of my count. 00:25:20.483 --> 00:25:22.383 Well, it's 17 books in the Jonathan Graves series. 00:25:22.403 --> 00:25:26.383 Oh, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. Wow. So 31 books total, though. Right. 00:25:26.803 --> 00:25:29.843 Wow. That's remarkable. Well, I mean, congratulations to you. 00:25:29.963 --> 00:25:31.303 I mean, that's been amazing. 00:25:32.203 --> 00:25:34.743 We're going to come back to that. We're going to talk about your upcoming book. 00:25:37.428 --> 00:25:40.428 What you were just talking about there kind of reminded me of something. 00:25:40.748 --> 00:25:42.108 I might have lost my train of thought. 00:25:45.428 --> 00:25:48.648 All right, let's jump to it then. Let's talk about Scorched Earth, shall we? 00:25:49.148 --> 00:25:53.228 All right. Scorched Earth is the number 17 in the Jonathan Graves series. 00:25:54.108 --> 00:26:00.088 Over the course of the series, the FBI director, a lady named Irene Rivers, 00:26:00.788 --> 00:26:04.668 I've painted her as like the last honest person in the federal government. 00:26:04.668 --> 00:26:07.548 But she's honest through awkward means. 00:26:07.688 --> 00:26:11.988 I mean, she will do, she believes in justice over the law, kind of. 00:26:12.108 --> 00:26:15.228 You know, there's a way to do things. And there's things that she cannot do. 00:26:15.748 --> 00:26:18.548 So she brings in Jonathan Grave to do it for her. Right. 00:26:18.888 --> 00:26:24.668 Speaking of which, in Zero Sum, there was a one-liner that you just basically gave it just now. 00:26:24.828 --> 00:26:28.788 And I think it goes something like this where he's having a conversation with 00:26:28.788 --> 00:26:35.248 her fairly early on in the book. and he's like, you know, I don't care about the law. 00:26:35.488 --> 00:26:38.788 I care about justice or something to that effect. Yeah. 00:26:39.528 --> 00:26:43.368 And, you know, and not to get too far off track, we all know that. 00:26:43.528 --> 00:26:47.908