WEBVTT 00:00:15.603 --> 00:00:16.663 And welcome to the Concealed Carry 00:00:16.663 --> 00:00:20.363 Podcast, part of the ConcealedCarry.com network brought to you by HK. 00:00:21.063 --> 00:00:25.563 Today is Thursday, November 6, 2025, as of the recording of this episode. 00:00:25.803 --> 00:00:31.843 And I am your host, Riley Bowman, joined by fellow host, Jacob Paulson. 00:00:32.923 --> 00:00:33.703 Yeah, I'm here. 00:00:34.563 --> 00:00:38.983 He's here. He's so thrilled to be here, too. Can you see it in his face and hear it in his voice? 00:00:40.123 --> 00:00:40.483 Yay! 00:00:43.303 --> 00:00:47.063 I was just thinking as we watched the intro, we probably ought to update that. 00:00:47.283 --> 00:00:50.563 I mean, there's some good stuff in there, but there's probably some more we could add to that. 00:00:51.023 --> 00:00:54.683 Make that little opening pre-roll. For those of you that catch the podcast on 00:00:54.683 --> 00:01:00.063 YouTube, I think that could be a fun tweak to update some footage there. 00:01:00.123 --> 00:01:00.703 What do you think, Jacob? 00:01:01.523 --> 00:01:02.783 Yeah, probably a good idea. 00:01:03.583 --> 00:01:09.983 Yeah, yeah. Well, today we're excited to be with you to actually talk about 00:01:09.983 --> 00:01:13.143 red dots on carry guns. Are they worth it? 00:01:14.423 --> 00:01:19.443 Lots to discuss. We've got some big news to share on the podcast today as well. 00:01:19.803 --> 00:01:22.683 Those of you that have been following our social media accounts recently, 00:01:23.503 --> 00:01:27.143 some of you may even be almost tired of seeing the content. 00:01:29.023 --> 00:01:34.643 For you know like a week or so now it's been like all about red dots and optics 00:01:34.643 --> 00:01:38.223 on pistols and uh we're going to talk about it some more i promise you that 00:01:38.223 --> 00:01:41.363 that's going to come you know to an end here before too long but we got some 00:01:41.363 --> 00:01:45.523 important stuff we got to get through first i don't know what do you want to share uh first jacob 00:01:46.832 --> 00:01:52.992 Yeah, this episode is brought to you by, and the first spot, I already forgot. 00:01:53.112 --> 00:01:55.732 Oh, the PIQ. I'm going for a minute. 00:01:55.832 --> 00:01:59.052 I messed you up there. You didn't see it coming. No, I didn't. 00:01:59.092 --> 00:02:03.032 That's okay. So we are giving away free sample targets. 00:02:03.872 --> 00:02:07.572 So the pistol intelligence target, you guys have heard us probably talk about 00:02:07.572 --> 00:02:10.432 that before. Riley designed this target several years ago. 00:02:10.812 --> 00:02:15.192 It's a highly functional, long-lasting, high-quality, full-size target. 00:02:15.692 --> 00:02:18.632 And normally if you go and buy the piq 00:02:18.632 --> 00:02:22.492 target you have to buy it in packs of 100 now 00:02:22.492 --> 00:02:26.012 that that would last the average gun owner a long time but 00:02:26.012 --> 00:02:28.732 you might be thinking i just don't know if i want to buy 100 of these and 00:02:28.732 --> 00:02:32.172 i've never tried them before so we're now giving well 00:02:32.172 --> 00:02:35.052 i mean giving away i suppose a little bit of a misnomer 00:02:35.052 --> 00:02:38.152 but we're basically giving away free sample piq 00:02:38.152 --> 00:02:41.372 targets just one target now you have to pay shipping so 00:02:41.372 --> 00:02:44.332 that's why it's not free free but it's very reasonable 00:02:44.332 --> 00:02:47.472 it's like actually the cost of like postage 00:02:47.472 --> 00:02:51.172 plus the envelope it goes in is what you're paying us and 00:02:51.172 --> 00:02:54.172 it's uh it is folded so you're gonna have some creases 00:02:54.172 --> 00:02:57.112 in this little sample target as opposed to when you normally buy them we roll 00:02:57.112 --> 00:03:02.232 them up but you know it gives you a chance to try out the piq target for you 00:03:02.232 --> 00:03:06.272 know free plus the cost of shipping so you should check that out out at concealed 00:03:06.272 --> 00:03:12.892 carry.com forward slash piq sample piq s-a-m-p-l-e. 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.919 Awesome. Yeah, check out the PIQ Target. 00:03:18.059 --> 00:03:22.199 They're hugely popular, especially amongst those that have used them and are 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.419 familiar with them. They tend to keep coming back and buying more of them. 00:03:25.579 --> 00:03:28.439 Yeah, they're not expensive. Even if you want to buy 100 of them, 00:03:28.539 --> 00:03:31.699 you could do that for like 50 bucks or something. So it's not terrible. 00:03:32.359 --> 00:03:37.059 Yeah. Awesome. Again, concealedcarry.com forward slash PIQ sample. 00:03:38.119 --> 00:03:41.639 And today we have another kind of sponsor announcement. 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:47.639 Got a new thing going on. It's relevant to the topic at hand. 00:03:48.079 --> 00:03:49.479 What do you want to talk about there? 00:03:49.739 --> 00:03:52.099 We're going to hold off. I think we're going to break the news of the second 00:03:52.099 --> 00:03:53.579 sponsor a little bit later in the episode. 00:03:54.139 --> 00:03:59.399 Okay. All right. Cool. We'll save that for later in the episode. 00:03:59.539 --> 00:04:01.579 Keep people on the edge of their seats. 00:04:05.279 --> 00:04:09.579 Something well i guess with that out of the way then let's jump into the topic 00:04:11.659 --> 00:04:16.599 red dots on carry guns i mean this is the concealed carry podcast so most of 00:04:16.599 --> 00:04:21.639 us are talking about a concealed carry context we i know we have cops and others 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.899 that listen to that are carrying guns on in a duty or maybe folks are carrying 00:04:25.899 --> 00:04:27.559 on a security job of some kind 00:04:28.419 --> 00:04:34.399 But regardless of that context, we're talking about guns that are used for personal defense. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.299 Optics, do they belong on defensive guns, Jacob? 00:04:39.019 --> 00:04:46.259 You know, I recently, about three, four weeks ago, I attended an event called Revolver Fest. 00:04:47.159 --> 00:04:51.599 The event is put on and hosted by some friends of ours over at American Fighting 00:04:51.599 --> 00:04:54.539 Revolver. And there are 125 attendees 00:04:54.539 --> 00:04:57.979 at this event who spent three days shooting nothing but will guns. 00:04:59.571 --> 00:05:04.011 And I was reflecting on that today when I was thinking about this podcast episode 00:05:04.011 --> 00:05:10.811 because here we are today talking about pistol optics, like the breaking newest technology. 00:05:10.811 --> 00:05:12.011 You know what I mean, 00:05:12.051 --> 00:05:18.091 As far as shooting. It's like the real cutting edge thing to have a pistol mounted 00:05:18.091 --> 00:05:20.091 optic in terms of technology. 00:05:20.491 --> 00:05:25.451 But here I was like four weeks ago shooting wheel guns that have been around for how long? 00:05:26.631 --> 00:05:30.991 Yeah ironically of course there were will guns with red dots on them but that's 00:05:30.991 --> 00:05:33.751 really not the point i'm trying to make the point i'm trying to make is you 00:05:33.751 --> 00:05:37.991 know when technology comes along there's always a couple things that are going 00:05:37.991 --> 00:05:41.451 to be true first there's going to be cons you know, 00:05:41.931 --> 00:05:49.151 very rarely does technology it's just all upsides you know it's 100 good um that's just not, 00:05:50.311 --> 00:05:54.471 not the case most of the time uh you know i just talked about revolvers and 00:05:54.471 --> 00:05:59.271 we could think about the transition that took place from revolvers to semi-automatics, right? 00:05:59.391 --> 00:06:05.791 Like that was a significant change when the gun community, law enforcement, 00:06:05.951 --> 00:06:09.891 military, and others were transitioning to semi-automatics. 00:06:09.991 --> 00:06:15.171 Now, obviously, when we see these big shifts, whatever it is we're talking about, 00:06:15.411 --> 00:06:22.311 it tends to mean that the majority of people see more advantages than disadvantages to make that shift. 00:06:23.171 --> 00:06:26.451 That's what we see with red dots. So I think what I'm trying to say is. 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:36.940 We can't suggest that red dots are all, as I said recently, all puppies, rainbows, and roses. 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:41.040 There are some fawns. There are some trade-offs. 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:47.380 But at large, what we're seeing with this new technology, like we have with 00:06:47.380 --> 00:06:51.800 most technologies in the past, is that the advantages greatly outweigh the disadvantages. 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:54.600 Is that's a great way of looking at 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.480 it because you could talk about you know 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.280 revolvers like you kind of started us off 00:07:00.280 --> 00:07:02.940 with in in saying that you know 00:07:02.940 --> 00:07:06.080 i guess there was a transition at some point obviously at one time revolvers 00:07:06.080 --> 00:07:10.680 were the primary defensive tool uh you know semi-automatics have been around 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:18.860 a long time i mean very simply put the 1911 as a as the most popular uh example 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:20.840 of that has been around since 1911. 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:24.860 And variations of that have been around since even earlier than that. 00:07:25.400 --> 00:07:30.360 The precursors to the 1911, the John Moses Browning design semi-automatics. 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:35.380 And so those have been around a long time. But to your point, 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:41.060 even up into the early 80s, there were still law enforcement agencies that that 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:49.880 was their standard sidearm issue was a Model 15 or maybe even Model 19 in some cases, you know, 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:56.240 like actual true blue revolvers that were the primary defensive tool for law 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:00.560 enforcement officers until not that many years ago, relatively speaking. 00:08:01.840 --> 00:08:07.800 And so that's a, you know, fair point or fair way of looking at this, that, you know, 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:14.000 the, there's, there was a transition from revolvers to semi-automatics and to 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:18.900 your point, something had to be, hey, this is, this is worth it. 00:08:18.900 --> 00:08:22.040 Even though there are some trade-offs probably the primary trade-offs with 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.460 semi-automatics for you know coming from revolvers would 00:08:25.460 --> 00:08:28.440 be well there's a greater potential i 00:08:28.440 --> 00:08:31.920 guess you could say for things like malfunctions especially cycling 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.140 and ammunition in you know related malfunctions yeah 00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:39.460 uh in those guns and so that was probably i mean i wasn't well maybe i was alive 00:08:39.460 --> 00:08:43.420 to some extent i was just a little lad but uh i'm sure there were some debates 00:08:43.420 --> 00:08:48.180 that were had about these new fangled semi-automatics aren't you know reliable 00:08:48.180 --> 00:08:52.380 enough for me i'm gonna stick with my revolver and there's probably still some 00:08:52.380 --> 00:08:54.120 people that would say that today even but yeah 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:59.820 But that i mean to your point that transition took like 80 to 100 years you 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:05.560 know like to to really transition and and and to be fair you know kind of where i started this off, 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:09.860 there's still revolvers there's still people who prefer revolvers there will 00:09:09.860 --> 00:09:13.820 always be revolvers Like we have not eliminated them at all. 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:19.960 Like they're still out. Their market share is minuscule compared to the semi-automatic. 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:23.640 It's hardly there at all, but they still exist. 00:09:23.780 --> 00:09:26.800 I just went to an event dedicated to the wheel gun, right? 00:09:26.900 --> 00:09:32.680 So I think that that's the way you have to look at this kind of thing and think about it. 00:09:32.980 --> 00:09:35.660 Now, you mentioned malfunctions, right? Like, because I said, 00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:37.120 there's trade-offs, there's downsides. 00:09:37.700 --> 00:09:42.380 We're just weighing the benefits versus the cons, which we'll probably talk 00:09:42.380 --> 00:09:44.600 about a little bit today as it relates to the pistol-mounted optic. 00:09:45.870 --> 00:09:50.750 But some of those cons are only perceived in the paradigm that we have at the time. 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:55.750 So let's go back and use our same example, the wheel gun to the semi-automatic. 00:09:56.070 --> 00:10:01.930 In that transitionary period, I mean, certainly malfunctions came up a lot, which you mentioned. 00:10:02.190 --> 00:10:08.330 And to this day, we still, I think, generally perceive that malfunctions are 00:10:08.330 --> 00:10:09.850 more common on a semi-automatic. 00:10:10.150 --> 00:10:13.310 It'd be interesting to see the data. But I think that that's still the general 00:10:13.310 --> 00:10:17.130 perception and the way that most wheel gunners justify the wheel gun. 00:10:17.590 --> 00:10:20.970 But at the time, during that transition, if we go back and look at the 70s, 00:10:21.050 --> 00:10:26.090 80s, and early 90s, a big, massive concern and pushback on the semi-automatic 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:30.230 was that they were unsafe because the trigger weight was so light. 00:10:31.539 --> 00:10:36.259 We went from having these double action triggers, 10, 12, 15-pound triggers, 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.659 and then all of a sudden we moved over to the semi-automatics with, 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:45.079 in some cases, one-and-a-half-pound triggers, three-pound triggers, four-pound triggers. 00:10:45.299 --> 00:10:48.379 And it was like, this is insane. These things are going off all the time. 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:53.519 Cops, I was talking to, or I shouldn't say talking to, I was listening to Daryl 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.139 Bolke at that event, Revolver Fest, and he was talking about how they trained 00:10:57.139 --> 00:10:58.679 cops when he came on the job. 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:02.899 You were trained on the draw to get your finger in the trigger guard before 00:11:02.899 --> 00:11:04.199 you even cleared the holster. 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.939 Many of them were running holsters that exposed the trigger guard so you could 00:11:07.939 --> 00:11:10.099 get your finger on the trigger before you drew the gun. 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:16.579 Now today, in today's paradigm in which gun owners reside, that sounds insane. 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:18.419 We're like, holy crap, are you crazy? 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:22.899 Like you would never put your finger on the trigger while you're still in the 00:11:22.899 --> 00:11:24.979 holster. That's nutty, man. That's so unsafe. 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.499 Like I can't believe you'd say that out loud. How irresponsible of you. 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.659 But that was the paradigm around the tool that was used all those years. 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.739 I was just going to add to what you're explaining. For those where this is the 00:11:37.739 --> 00:11:42.139 first time they're hearing something like this, I've got, and it's not hard 00:11:42.139 --> 00:11:45.079 to find, there's dozens and dozens and dozens of examples. 00:11:45.439 --> 00:11:50.899 I've got photographic evidence of duty holsters from the era that you're referencing, 00:11:51.019 --> 00:11:54.479 Jacob, that are designed with trigger guard exposed. 00:11:54.479 --> 00:11:59.179 Yeah, and in many cases, the revolver also couldn't rotate if the holster was, 00:12:00.463 --> 00:12:04.903 shaped properly to the cylinder of the revolver, then you couldn't fire it in the holster. 00:12:05.103 --> 00:12:08.783 But it still sounds crazy to us that just immediately, even just immediately 00:12:08.783 --> 00:12:10.443 clearing the holster that you have your finger on your trigger. 00:12:10.663 --> 00:12:15.863 But in an era where you're running 12 pound triggers, that might've been reasonable 00:12:15.863 --> 00:12:19.523 because you could start to roll through that trigger and then change your mind 00:12:19.523 --> 00:12:23.083 halfway through and be like, oh no, cool, we don't have to shoot this dude. 00:12:23.443 --> 00:12:28.443 So at that time in the paradigm that existed because of the best practices that 00:12:28.443 --> 00:12:31.183 were crafted around the tool at the time, which was the revolver, 00:12:31.363 --> 00:12:34.903 people tried to apply the same paradigm to the semi-automatic. 00:12:35.883 --> 00:12:39.723 And that's why we started having these issues of, oh, it's an unsafe gun. 00:12:39.843 --> 00:12:42.483 And I think we see some of that too with the red dot, where we, 00:12:42.703 --> 00:12:44.963 even in my opinion, the majority, 00:12:45.263 --> 00:12:50.803 I don't know if I can say majority, a large percentage of shooters who have 00:12:50.803 --> 00:12:56.863 adopted carry optics, pistol-meted optics, are still utilizing them the way they did iron sights. 00:12:58.103 --> 00:13:04.583 And that's leading to those gun owners not getting the advantages completely 00:13:04.583 --> 00:13:05.823 that the tool offers them. 00:13:06.783 --> 00:13:10.863 So those are some of the parallels I'm drawing in our little comparison. 00:13:11.083 --> 00:13:14.023 First, that, hey, there's always going to be cons to new technology. 00:13:14.403 --> 00:13:17.543 And if you adapt it, it's because you see more pros than cons. 00:13:18.063 --> 00:13:21.643 And second, that if you, if you, when you move into new technology, 00:13:21.683 --> 00:13:25.423 you can't use it the same way you did the old or you're, or you're, 00:13:25.543 --> 00:13:27.103 it's, you're just not, it's not going to work. 00:13:27.263 --> 00:13:30.363 It takes time for us to figure out like, oh, wait, with this tool, 00:13:30.443 --> 00:13:31.483 we don't need to do this anymore. 00:13:31.623 --> 00:13:34.663 We don't need to do that that way anymore. We need to now do it like this. 00:13:34.803 --> 00:13:39.183 And that's how we're going to squeeze out the incremental performance or safety or whatever it is. 00:13:39.863 --> 00:13:40.983 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:13:41.801 --> 00:13:46.561 Yeah. Actually, so I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there right now. 00:13:46.721 --> 00:13:49.541 I put it up on the screen earlier, but I wanted to come back to it. 00:13:49.621 --> 00:13:53.521 This is a question from Dwifta on YouTube. 00:13:54.281 --> 00:13:55.501 It says, his biggest thing is 00:13:55.501 --> 00:13:58.881 focusing on the target, not my sites when using a red dot. Is that wrong? 00:13:59.061 --> 00:14:03.181 What kind of consideration should be made in that regard? And I'd say that, 00:14:03.281 --> 00:14:07.481 like, that's exactly the right path you should be on, DWFTA. 00:14:08.421 --> 00:14:11.421 That's quite a name. I appreciate you chiming in there, DWFTA. 00:14:13.281 --> 00:14:18.981 That is the idea. Like, you should be target-focused. And to what you're explaining, 00:14:19.101 --> 00:14:23.241 Jacob, that people maybe, you know, try to use the current tool, 00:14:23.441 --> 00:14:28.341 meaning this modern technology of the red dot, the same way they are used to 00:14:28.341 --> 00:14:30.001 using things like iron sights, 00:14:30.841 --> 00:14:34.561 meaning where we've been taught since I was a kid, and for decades now, 00:14:34.721 --> 00:14:38.741 the mantra has been front sight focus, front sight focus, front sight focus. 00:14:39.141 --> 00:14:43.941 And so we're so used to, I mean, even with the transition over to a red dot 00:14:43.941 --> 00:14:47.841 on a pistol, to be like, well, I'm going to, you know, we just have a tendency 00:14:47.841 --> 00:14:49.441 to want to focus on the dot, 00:14:50.821 --> 00:14:53.621 Even though the way it should appear to us 00:14:53.621 --> 00:14:56.621 is that that dot is at the same focal plane 00:14:56.621 --> 00:14:59.661 as the target and really where the focus should be and where 00:14:59.661 --> 00:15:05.961 it always should have been was the target that's where our focus should be that's 00:15:05.961 --> 00:15:09.041 what's the most important thing that's what we're actually trying to shoot that's 00:15:09.041 --> 00:15:12.121 where the threat's located that's where we need to read information about what's 00:15:12.121 --> 00:15:16.241 going on what the threat is doing or not doing you know so we can make good 00:15:16.241 --> 00:15:19.261 and proper and moral decisions um 00:15:20.385 --> 00:15:27.185 And so this is a total shift for a lot of people of, hey, stop focusing so much on the site itself. 00:15:27.465 --> 00:15:30.665 Focus on the target and allow the dot to come and be there. 00:15:30.885 --> 00:15:37.565 All right. And there's ways to make that happen more consistently and more repeatably for the shooter. 00:15:38.285 --> 00:15:44.405 And we can get into that. But, yeah, good comment slash question there from Dwifta. 00:15:44.945 --> 00:15:49.245 Just make sure, yeah, with using a dot, you should be target focused 100% all the time. 00:15:49.245 --> 00:15:55.385 And really what that entails then is that you learn to have a visual awareness 00:15:55.385 --> 00:16:00.185 of where the dot's located relative to where your eyes are locked on, on that target. 00:16:00.965 --> 00:16:05.805 Yeah, that's a great example of what I was getting at. 00:16:05.925 --> 00:16:13.985 And it kind of lays the groundwork for the foundation that is the value that the red dot brings. 00:16:17.523 --> 00:16:23.743 Yeah, so all of that context, I suppose, to – I mean, what are we trying to 00:16:23.743 --> 00:16:24.503 get at here today, Jacob? 00:16:24.503 --> 00:16:28.903 Well, I think the first thing to understand is that despite me saying that, 00:16:29.143 --> 00:16:32.923 there's a large number of people out there who are going to say, 00:16:33.103 --> 00:16:38.043 great, in theory, Jacob's right, but I don't see the benefits outweighing the cons. 00:16:38.183 --> 00:16:39.023 Right? 00:16:39.023 --> 00:16:42.723 Like Jacob's not wrong in, you know, cause it's just obvious, 00:16:43.063 --> 00:16:48.503 like super obvious in common sense that when the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, 00:16:48.503 --> 00:16:50.723 you adapt and you change. 00:16:51.023 --> 00:16:51.283 Right. 00:16:51.583 --> 00:16:54.023 So to whatever the thing is. So. 00:16:54.623 --> 00:16:54.963 Yeah. 00:16:55.163 --> 00:16:57.323 Got it. I mean, are there enough of those? 00:16:57.743 --> 00:17:02.163 Yeah. To give you an example, like if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, right. 00:17:04.283 --> 00:17:10.843 You could probably only list one, maybe two miniaturized red dot sites, 00:17:11.043 --> 00:17:17.083 as they're sometimes also referred to as being reliable enough for this purpose, 00:17:17.363 --> 00:17:19.203 this topic that we're discussing today. 00:17:20.383 --> 00:17:22.243 And even that reliability could have been a little debated. 00:17:22.943 --> 00:17:28.123 Yeah, but really we're talking in that conversation, real short on that list 00:17:28.123 --> 00:17:33.903 is the Trijicon RMR, which has been kind of the gold standard for quite a long time now. 00:17:34.203 --> 00:17:35.703 Commercially available in the U S yeah. 00:17:36.023 --> 00:17:40.183 Yeah. That, that was, that was pretty much it. And now today that's, 00:17:40.363 --> 00:17:43.263 this conversation is, is very different. 00:17:43.523 --> 00:17:49.403 We have a lot of options that are really solid options that are reliable, 00:17:49.563 --> 00:17:54.883 that are robust, that are durable, that are, uh, that you can rely upon. 00:17:55.043 --> 00:17:58.983 Well, and in 10 years, we're gonna have more. And cause it's, it's always, uh, 00:18:00.194 --> 00:18:03.174 if something is reliable or robust is an unknown 00:18:03.174 --> 00:18:05.854 quantity when it hits the marketplace right so we have 00:18:05.854 --> 00:18:08.974 optics right now that are in the infant stage 00:18:08.974 --> 00:18:15.234 of data right but we we received an email at the podcast email this last week 00:18:15.234 --> 00:18:18.574 from somebody who was asking about a very specific brand of optic and they said 00:18:18.574 --> 00:18:22.914 hey you know i've heard you guys talk about these i bought such and such a brand 00:18:22.914 --> 00:18:24.514 of optic i haven't heard a lot about 00:18:24.514 --> 00:18:27.454 it what do you think and that was my response It's sort of like, well, 00:18:27.714 --> 00:18:31.454 indicators as of right now are all good, but it's too early to know. 00:18:32.594 --> 00:18:36.754 Because I'm not the guinea pig. I don't have some battle testing protocol that 00:18:36.754 --> 00:18:41.414 I can use to go put a bunch of – I don't have the money either to go beat up a bunch of product. 00:18:41.774 --> 00:18:47.594 So I, like most, am going to quietly observe the community, rely on the heavy 00:18:47.594 --> 00:18:52.354 users like law enforcement and the military to provide the data to say, 00:18:52.534 --> 00:18:55.294 yeah, this is proving to be really good. 00:18:55.294 --> 00:18:59.334 But so that's my point is that today, yeah, you have a lot of products that 00:18:59.334 --> 00:19:02.774 are pretty well tested, battle tested for lack of a better word. 00:19:02.894 --> 00:19:07.614 And then you have a whole bunch more that look pretty good, but the jury is still out a little bit. 00:19:09.511 --> 00:19:14.351 Absolutely. And that'll always be the case. You know, just ongoing development of product. 00:19:15.391 --> 00:19:19.911 I'll give you an example. I was actually just doing some research today on this 00:19:19.911 --> 00:19:27.271 and it was, you know, mentioned that the, I'm not going to mention the specific one right now. 00:19:27.271 --> 00:19:31.571 Now it's not really relevant to this specific discussion right at this moment, 00:19:31.571 --> 00:19:38.111 but there was a brand that in a specific optic from that brand that somebody 00:19:38.111 --> 00:19:43.091 had provided some data on that they had done some testing and three different 00:19:43.091 --> 00:19:45.751 samples of that very optic. 00:19:46.111 --> 00:19:48.911 So three different individual units. And it's not this one. 00:19:49.031 --> 00:19:54.251 I'm just holding one up as an example that they had in all failed in around 500 rounds or so. 00:19:55.351 --> 00:19:58.411 That's not very uh encouraging for that particular 00:19:58.411 --> 00:20:01.191 optic you know i mean i suspect that company is going back 00:20:01.191 --> 00:20:04.731 to the drawing board with something there or at least i would like to think so uh 00:20:04.731 --> 00:20:07.531 you know so that that's that's just the reality of 00:20:07.531 --> 00:20:10.331 things somebody comes up with a new product it's going to get tested people are 00:20:10.331 --> 00:20:13.051 going to you know put it put it to work hopefully and you know 00:20:13.051 --> 00:20:18.411 pretty soon we'll find out uh well pretty it's usually pretty quick to find 00:20:18.411 --> 00:20:22.491 out if something's a piece of crap um it's usually a little bit of longer process 00:20:22.491 --> 00:20:28.011 to get to where it's like this is a proven optic that uh you know that i would 00:20:28.011 --> 00:20:30.331 recommend for putting on a carry gun for instance yeah i mean 00:20:30.331 --> 00:20:33.891 It's the same with anything else same thing with guns new guns come to the marketplace 00:20:33.891 --> 00:20:38.691 i mean it's interesting like right now it's just now that we're seeing a whole 00:20:38.691 --> 00:20:41.651 bunch of good data and feedback on the p365, 00:20:42.991 --> 00:20:47.211 That gun's been out for, I don't know, what, like five years or six years or something? 00:20:48.011 --> 00:20:52.911 It's funny that you say that right now because just yesterday I saw a post from 00:20:52.911 --> 00:20:56.251 a friend saying that they don't think it's that good. 00:20:56.771 --> 00:21:00.551 I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm not weighing in on the quality of the gun. 00:21:00.811 --> 00:21:06.531 I am suggesting that over the last year and a half, I've seen a lot more reports 00:21:06.531 --> 00:21:10.791 coming back on the longevity of a gun that when it was initially, 00:21:11.331 --> 00:21:14.731 launched in the marketplace, it became a top seller almost overnight. 00:21:14.911 --> 00:21:16.731 I carried that gun for some time. 00:21:18.171 --> 00:21:24.091 But now years later, we're getting feedback. I'm just suggesting that more time means more data. 00:21:26.271 --> 00:21:30.431 You're speaking about a gun that I have personally tens of thousands of rounds through. 00:21:31.511 --> 00:21:37.451 Through multiple samples of. Anyway, yeah, all right. um 00:21:38.886 --> 00:21:41.186 So I would like to see more data. 00:21:41.346 --> 00:21:43.006 Yeah, let's look at the data. Yeah, exactly. 00:21:43.146 --> 00:21:46.326 That's where the next jumping off point is here. 00:21:48.106 --> 00:21:53.266 I think that there's still a lot that needs to be studied further because one 00:21:53.266 --> 00:21:59.186 of the things that's difficult about things in the gun space is getting actual 00:21:59.186 --> 00:22:05.786 legitimized studies and research done on gun-related things. 00:22:05.786 --> 00:22:10.786 Because a lot of universities and whatnot, I mean, one, they don't care. 00:22:11.186 --> 00:22:14.766 And secondly, they might have a bias against such, actually, 00:22:14.866 --> 00:22:18.106 they likely have a bias against, you know, guns and gun-related products. 00:22:18.206 --> 00:22:19.646 But there are a few things. 00:22:20.066 --> 00:22:25.046 And I'm going to point you to, first of all, and I've been familiar with this 00:22:25.046 --> 00:22:27.206 resource for a number of years now, 00:22:27.226 --> 00:22:30.846 but some of the best information that 00:22:30.846 --> 00:22:34.206 i've relied upon for years is from aaron 00:22:34.206 --> 00:22:37.206 cowen at sage dynamics for years 00:22:37.206 --> 00:22:41.006 now i think he's this is on his he's on his seventh edition and 00:22:41.006 --> 00:22:44.426 he's probably ready to publish an eighth edition would be my guess because i 00:22:44.426 --> 00:22:48.546 think he's you know been doing an update about once every year or two and it's 00:22:48.546 --> 00:22:53.206 been two years since the last edition was released but he has a a white paper 00:22:53.206 --> 00:22:58.266 on his website sage dynamics.org is where you can find it it's called miniaturized 00:22:58.266 --> 00:23:00.786 red dot systems for duty handgun use. 00:23:00.886 --> 00:23:07.826 Now, yes, he is very specifically interested in optics on pistols in a duty context. 00:23:07.826 --> 00:23:13.726 He's trying to provide information and research and data for law enforcement 00:23:13.726 --> 00:23:18.546 agencies primarily that are looking at potentially adopting or using or issuing 00:23:18.546 --> 00:23:22.766 or approving optics on their officer's handguns. 00:23:23.942 --> 00:23:29.482 And so what's cool about that is, you know, this 70 plus page white paper, 00:23:29.482 --> 00:23:35.622 he's got quite a few data points in there that I think are interesting to note and be aware of. 00:23:35.642 --> 00:23:40.682 That's why I start by bringing that up right now is I think that that's a good place to start. 00:23:40.922 --> 00:23:45.322 I don't know that you've reviewed that at all, Jacob, but I'm happy to go over 00:23:45.322 --> 00:23:48.202 a couple of key points in that white paper. 00:23:48.322 --> 00:23:51.702 I've seen like a summary only. I've not really gone deep with it. 00:23:51.702 --> 00:23:54.102 And only the most recent one, I haven't been following it either. 00:23:54.342 --> 00:23:56.822 So I'm happy to let you tell them about it. 00:23:57.702 --> 00:24:03.282 Yeah. So the first thing I would point you to is he actually, 00:24:03.522 --> 00:24:09.042 and then this is just context for us to think about how an optic is used on a pistol. 00:24:10.202 --> 00:24:13.222 So this is not data yet, but I'm going to get to that. 00:24:13.222 --> 00:24:17.782 But just contextually, he talks about a lot of different things, 00:24:17.882 --> 00:24:22.062 including stress response, you know, that people go through when we're dealing 00:24:22.062 --> 00:24:27.522 with life or death situations and kind of what that does to the body. 00:24:27.922 --> 00:24:32.642 And so you're talking about adrenaline and, you know, an SNS response and all of that, right? 00:24:33.584 --> 00:24:37.904 And one thing that I wanted to start by talking about and hitting on, 00:24:37.984 --> 00:24:41.544 and people have probably heard things like this before, is where he explains 00:24:41.544 --> 00:24:44.424 what happens with the muscles, the little muscles in the eye that are responsible 00:24:44.424 --> 00:24:46.904 for basically focusing. 00:24:47.004 --> 00:24:51.964 Like what we are able to actually focus on, which is known as accommodation. 00:24:53.904 --> 00:24:58.884 Those little muscles start to not work as well when we are under significant stress. 00:24:59.604 --> 00:25:02.604 And and so the the major takeaway from that is 00:25:02.604 --> 00:25:05.424 that the ability and it's 00:25:05.424 --> 00:25:08.484 not a guaranteed thing it's going to depend on the type of stress response it's 00:25:08.484 --> 00:25:11.764 going to depend on how sudden for instance uh something 00:25:11.764 --> 00:25:15.444 happens like if we are truly shocked or surprised that's 00:25:15.444 --> 00:25:18.464 one thing compared to a situation that develops 00:25:18.464 --> 00:25:21.584 a little more gradually you know to where we're able to stay more 00:25:21.584 --> 00:25:24.324 in like a decision making you know kind of 00:25:24.324 --> 00:25:27.424 mindset um but but 00:25:27.424 --> 00:25:31.044 if if you know we have a sudden adrenaline dump or 00:25:31.044 --> 00:25:34.544 sns system in our body activates then what 00:25:34.544 --> 00:25:37.944 happens is the ability to or what can happen is 00:25:37.944 --> 00:25:44.244 the ability to focus at you know objects that are close to us uh it degrades 00:25:44.244 --> 00:25:49.464 sometimes significantly and so i'm just providing that context because that's 00:25:49.464 --> 00:25:53.184 interesting to think about because for those people that are like well iron 00:25:53.184 --> 00:25:56.244 sights are the way for me i've tried red dots. I don't like them. 00:25:56.404 --> 00:26:00.944 You know, I've been using iron sights for 40 years and, you know, 00:26:00.964 --> 00:26:03.384 I'm just going to stick with what I know. And it's like, that's cool. 00:26:03.644 --> 00:26:09.984 You know, more power to you. Although it is possible that in a situation where 00:26:09.984 --> 00:26:11.704 you need to rely upon iron sights, 00:26:12.004 --> 00:26:15.924 particularly if you are using them in the traditional sense of front sight focus, 00:26:16.124 --> 00:26:21.584 you may not actually physically be able to focus on your front sight when you're under stress. 00:26:22.772 --> 00:26:28.052 And so that just reinforces the idea that target focus, which is what humans 00:26:28.052 --> 00:26:34.912 have been doing for millennia, is when faced with a threat, our body is wired 00:26:34.912 --> 00:26:36.572 to want to focus on the threat. 00:26:36.752 --> 00:26:41.552 Because that is like the thing that is of utmost importance in the moment is 00:26:41.552 --> 00:26:47.452 what this thing or person or animal or creature or whatever it is, is trying to do to me. 00:26:47.572 --> 00:26:50.732 And what do I need to do to try to survive? typically in 00:26:50.732 --> 00:26:56.972 the context of what you know how do i stop this right and so uh target focus 00:26:56.972 --> 00:27:03.732 is is really the the way and not just because it's superior uh but because that's 00:27:03.732 --> 00:27:08.632 the way our bodies are actually wired to work so yeah you know 00:27:08.632 --> 00:27:11.812 I'm just thinking that's that's highly relevant right 00:27:11.812 --> 00:27:14.812 like um because we're you were talking here you know do do 00:27:14.812 --> 00:27:18.132 pistol mounted optics bring enough advantages to overcome 00:27:18.132 --> 00:27:21.412 the disadvantages and we've kind of been dancing around them but 00:27:21.412 --> 00:27:24.492 here's one that's very specific like my ability 00:27:24.492 --> 00:27:28.292 to focus especially when under stress or duress is 00:27:28.292 --> 00:27:34.732 challenged uh at at the at the plane that the gun sights would be so being target 00:27:34.732 --> 00:27:37.732 focused is going to be more natural more instinctive and i'm going to be more 00:27:37.732 --> 00:27:43.732 capable of that and so therefore i'll be able to aim more efficiently or effectively 00:27:43.732 --> 00:27:46.212 or at all with the with the optic. 00:27:47.457 --> 00:27:50.877 Yeah. So now let's go ahead and actually look at some data. 00:27:50.997 --> 00:27:54.037 And I'm going to jump to, and this has been published elsewhere, 00:27:54.377 --> 00:27:57.337 but I'm glad Aaron includes this in his white paper. 00:27:57.757 --> 00:28:02.137 Back in 2011, Norwich University conducted a range study, I'm quoting from the 00:28:02.137 --> 00:28:06.497 paper right now, comparing the Trijicon RMR to traditional iron sights. 00:28:06.597 --> 00:28:08.437 Now keep in mind, why specifically that optic? 00:28:08.617 --> 00:28:13.837 Well, because in 2011, it was pretty much the optic that you could use for this. 00:28:13.837 --> 00:28:19.417 It wasn't the only, but it was primarily the one that was considered to be, 00:28:19.417 --> 00:28:22.537 you know, strong and robust enough for, you know, these kinds of purposes. 00:28:23.937 --> 00:28:28.157 So the goal of the study, it says, was to identify an advantage in accuracy, 00:28:28.437 --> 00:28:34.117 if any, of the RMR, or we could just replace that with red dots or pistol optic, 00:28:34.317 --> 00:28:36.077 over traditional iron sights. 00:28:36.637 --> 00:28:40.577