Welcome to the Untoxicated
podcast.
Well, I'm Sherry Salas, and that was my
husband, Matt. We have questions about the impact
of alcohol and addiction on relationships.
If you have those kinds of questions too,
you're in the right place. Here we
go.
So we're going with Musketeers. Is that right?
Yeah. Going with okay. We're gonna start a
little inside baseball. Only
a fraction of our listening audience will understand,
but that fraction of our listening audience is
very important. We are here at the 2024
version
of the Echoes of Recovery Retreat in the
Colorado Rocky Mountains
with our retreat attendees, and we have just
come up
with the signature name. And I gotta say,
it is a great name. Evie, you're gonna
get a lot of credit for this one.
Yes. How much do I make from it?
Well, you get
you get a 50 share of the advertising
revenue from this
episode. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta remember never to
put advertising. That's that's an episode even like
That's not recorded now.
So On the record.
So moose get tears, and that was because
we saw a moose. Saw a moose. We
saw a moose. Seen him a couple times.
The first time
we saw the moose, it was on the
way in
from the airport.
We hadn't even been to the retreat house
yet. We had just turned the corner off
the highway onto, like, the country road,
and I believe it was Nikki and you,
Lauren,
who spotted the moose.
And we were
ho ho. And some others in the car
ho ho ho. Some others in the car
were like, oh, yeah. Sure. He saw a
moose. Right? Yeah. We lived here for 20
years. I've seen a moose twice, and you
just saw one. Sure you did.
But it was. It was a moose because
we've seen him a couple times now.
Congratulations.
Thank you. Like, we weren't bullying the first
time. I know. You should be really upset.
I am pissed. I know you are. I
know.
Nikki is And some of us actually pissing
you. Did you try to Some of us
in the car was you, Matt. Yeah. You
you you you. You were the one that
was I was the downer. You're right. Yeah.
Yeah. You saw a big deal. I know
how that works. Right? Yeah. Funny how the
tables turn.
And then we saw it the next day,
day, and it was in a hailstorm. So
all hail the Musketeers.
Welcome to
the intoxicated podcast. Thank you all so much
for being here. How the hell are you
doing?
Good stuff. So to the naked turtles
and the hummingbird ninjas, you have,
a 3rd anniversary
sisterhood, and they've got a really cool name.
And so this is a live roundtable
podcast from the Echoes of Recovery Retreat 20
24 version.
Our topic for today, you know, and I'm
gonna I'm gonna fall on the sword. We've
done a bunch of these retreat episodes. Haven't
we, Sherry? Yeah. Not just with the echo
retreat, but also merge evolution.
And we always pick a pretty kinda
Heavy,
intense,
lots of detail sort of
questions in the podcast topic. Oh, I was
gonna say an easy one. But Oh. I
feel like we had, like,
the You get emotional. It was yeah. Yeah.
You're right. And the first echoes retreat was
pretty Oh, that was much. That was yeah.
That was a lot of that was, like,
questions. I bet if you go back and
listen to your questions or check your old
notebooks to see the questions you asked, you
Well, everyone knows how much I love to
make you cry, so I figured we've got
a whole group of people. Let's see how
we can help you.
Tissues? They're right there.
Yeah. I'm kidding. That's not really that's not
really true at all. I hate to see
people cry. But, the topic, we're gonna ask
people to go back in the way back
machine and remember things from not just present
day, your present day emotions, and your present
day relationships, but
we're gonna go back in time a little
bit, and we're gonna talk about your changing
needs over time with this roundtable.
So I hope you guys are excited about
that. With us today
at the Echoes of Recovery Retreat
is Nikki, Evie, Melanie, Kristen, Nicole, Lauren,
Ali, and Julie. Thank you all for being
here. Hope you guys have been having a
good time. Yes.
Yeah. Yep. Awesome. It's been wonderful.
So the title of the episode
is meeting
meeting your changing needs.
That's what we're talking about, meeting your changing
needs. And I thought that's kinda cumbersome. Obviously,
I can't say it. I really I thought
about naming it the getting your needs met
roundtable,
but that sounds too much like an orgy.
I thought that's a
that's a mafia.
And I don't think anyone would wanna listen
to that. So my my real first question
is,
what needs did you have when you first
met your partner?
That's tough, isn't it? None. None. Tell me
more.
I'm 21.
I had no idea what needs meant in
a relationship.
Yeah. So I couldn't say that I had,
like, specific ones that I needed met in
a partner at at the time. In in
a partner or can you go beyond it?
Like, did you know what your needs were
regardless of a partner?
I mean, it's kind of a loaded question,
but I was kinda hoping someone would
say that. That's what I was gonna say
that, you know, jumped in. But I don't
even think that I would have known what
I needed or was looking for other than,
like, comparing
you, Matt, to the other people I had
and what I didn't want anymore. Like, I
didn't say what I didn't want,
but I didn't know what I wanted or
needed
or or felt like I
needed. I would say that needs were very
superficial.
Yes. Like, I needed,
you know, to go out and have a
good time and I needed him to meet
all my friends
and be liked and
I don't know They were just it was
nothing meaningful to the relationship
necessarily.
So was like,
showing off
your boyfriend, like, some more kinda aesthetic
physical, like, look at my cute boyfriend. Was
that kinda higher on the list then? And
look at me. I have a boyfriend. Oh,
yeah. And he's older than me and he's
got a real job and he's
cool and drives a truck.
Yeah. All of those superficial things.
So either superficial or unaware?
Mhmm. I think I was older. Mine was
so I we were going around the table
before the the podcast started
and I was
27 almost 28 when I met my husband.
So I had dated, you know, had a
bunch of first dates before that. I knew
I said that did not make it past
that. And so I think I knew what
I wanted.
I knew I wanted if I was gonna,
you know, if we're gonna do this, I
wanted to find someone that I wanted to
marry and I wanted to have kids with,
because I was kind of more in that
stage of life.
So I was looking for more stability with
a job,
career potential,
and then there's just like things I feel
like now looking back at it, that should
be a given like safety,
you know,
companionship,
respect,
things that you just assumed you were gonna
get when you,
went forward with that relationship.
Yeah. We're gonna dive. Especially at that age.
Right? Yeah. When you find the people that
you Yes. It's like, oh,
job, career,
you know, underway, and then you think that
it's that's just gonna be given. And then
the other thing too, I wanted,
like, you know, I was older, so I
I
was pretty independent. So I wanted someone who
who would respect that,
sort of turned on me when, you know,
he turned to alcohol and definitely
allowed me to do my own thing.
But, yeah,
just just different definitely, if I would have
met him when I was 21, I definitely
would have looked for different things and been
in a
different place in my own life.
Mhmm. I think for me, I
so I was 17, but
I had already been cheated on by a
really crappy boyfriend. I should not have let
hang around as long as I did. And
so fidelity was a big thing for me
or someone who,
acted like I was the most important thing
in the world, which even throughout
everything we've been through, he still has me
on a pedestal.
So I guess I found that. But, but
I was seeking someone. I wasn't looking for
I didn't wanna I did not want a
boyfriend because I was a couple months before
graduating high school, going off to this big
school and I
did not wanna be tied down. So that
wasn't gonna happen, but it did. But, yeah,
I definitely
I was looking for a little more honesty,
I guess. I'm curious.
Pedestal. I never did. Well, I mean, I
guess I did back then, but that's maybe
a change in need. But, but now it's
kinda irritating.
It's a lot of pressure. It is a
lot of pressure. Yeah. For sure. I don't
even need like, I just wanted someone who
wasn't clingy because my previous boyfriend was such
a clinger. Mhmm. I was like, you're not
clingy. You have a car, and you're working.
It looks like you could be doing something.
That was literally it. Someone who wasn't a
clinger. Mhmm. Just a baseline of my knees.
That's really interesting. You mentioned that. Nicole, you
mentioned that you've been cheated on. I was
cheated on in college with a previous girlfriend.
And so immediately when you said that, I
went, oh, yeah. Like, one of the big
things I was what?
What are you saying about? Happened. That made
you absolutely clingy. I know.
You definitely,
Lauren, didn't want someone who had been cheated
on prior to you because that were
yeah. But I think that's interesting how
you maybe don't recognize what your needs are
on, like, a conscious level, except for the
ways you've already been stung. Right? Yeah. Even
if it's limited because you're young. Right. That's
true. That's super interesting.
Kristen, you mentioned kids.
Most people, but not everybody at this roundtable
has kids.
At young age, when you're first meeting your
partner,
maybe you're starting maybe your college, maybe you're
starting a professional career. Are you thinking about
kids at that point? Are you thinking, I
really want to have kids and is this
the right person? So I can pop in
on this from the perspective of someone who
was older, like Kristen, when I met my
from the perspective of someone who was older,
like Kristen, when I met my husband. Okay.
And, you know, I was I was established.
I had a house.
What stood out to me was not, oh,
I want kids. It wasn't like, I wanna
have a baby.
It was I was reaching an age. I've
the guy that I had been dating previously
was very adamant. He did not want children,
and I respected that there was an age
gap in our difference, and I
but I
had reached a point in that relationship prior
just prior to meeting,
my husband
that
we were morphing, and I knew that if
I did if I wanted to have a
family,
I needed to let that relationship go and
open myself up to someone who did want
a family. So it wasn't so much like,
I wanna have kids with you. It was
I want there to be the option of
their
of having children in the future. Yeah. Exactly.
That was very important.
I think even even though it wasn't necessarily
on my mind because I was 21 about
to turn 22, I in some ways
it's on every woman's mind like if if
I wanna have kids or if I want
the option of having kids there's a time
limit right? So I think that
is
something that we all have thought about at
some point in our lives you know? Yeah.
Before we got married, we had to have
all those talks. We wanted the same number
of kids, and we had all those just
because we dated for four and a half
years all through college and got married after
graduation.
But but, yeah, if he had said he
didn't wanna have kids, I probably wouldn't married
him, honestly.
Mhmm.
Because I really wanted to. The guy in
and said,
4 months in, let's just I know the
plan was kinda made for you. What's the
worst I could have been? I did though.
I did put his last name because I
was a kid. And I was like, oh,
his last name sounds good with my name.
That could that was the other So you
needed someone with a cool last name? Totally.
Oh, me.
Yeah. Same. That's what it was.
Yeah. I went to some point someone higher
up in the alpha. Same. I went
from w to h.
Wow.
S to g. I chose from the 12
letters to look at the Yeah. I got
the last letters.
So less letters higher at the end, but
and sounds good with your first name. Yeah.
For sure. I know all of you reasonably
well. And so when I was preparing the
questions for this episode, I was anticipating your
answers.
That's not what I anticipated
unless you cared about the alphabetical order of
your last name. Did you Just a bonus.
Did you not ever write your, like, in
high school, like, you would make, like, your
last your first name? That's not a boy
thing. Cute. I don't think that's a boy
thing. That's not a boy thing. No. Because
they they don't change their name. Really, it
was kind of girly.
I am in text with my feminine side.
Can we say it that way? Yeah. You're
I mean, I feel like that's a better
way to say it. Sure. And you have
a lot of friends that were real, so
I don't know. But you probably saw their
notebooks, like, when she was
no? No. This is taking me by surprise.
So,
so is it okay. So I love the
way you phrased that, Ali, and it sounds
like there's some agreement anyway. It wasn't necessarily
that you definitely wanted to have kids, but
you wanted the option and you knew that
the person that you were with, that wasn't
gonna be an option with this person, so
you
needed to to kinda look for that. So
I think that,
availability
was a was a need. That was kind
of my situation too, my previous relationship. I
knew I didn't wanna have kids with him
because just So it wasn't a matter of
he didn't wanna have kids. No. I knew
I didn't wanna have kids with him. So
that was
part of the reason that I ended that
relationship. So, yeah, that was something
and, like, we worked together in a in
a raising kids environment, so I knew how
he would be,
raising kids. So that was, yeah, something that
you at least wanted to have the option.
Okay. Great.
Anything else on that? On, your needs when
you first Smart.
I think I've said this before. Yeah. They're
like, I needed needed somebody that was smart.
I needed to meet somebody that was smart.
Well, you're very smart. I couldn't I couldn't
do and I had dated
Yeah. Yeah bluntly stupid before.
But Yeah. I I discovered that about myself
previous to meeting my husband and Yeah. Just
someone who could, like, you know, be your
equal. Yes. Yeah. And challenge you and
yeah. Yeah.
And the good sense of humor, compatibility,
somebody that respected
and, like you said, kinda let you, you
know, not try to overrule what you wanted
to do type of thing. So, yeah, there
was I think it was, like, simple needs
though. Yeah. So with a plan for their
own life, like, I mean, as young as
I was, I had my plans. I don't
think my parents would have blessed anything if,
you know, if he wasn't if he didn't
have his own goals.
Mhmm. Mhmm. I have brothers. So I have,
I'm 1 of 5, and they're all all
brothers.
So I needed someone that could
be confident
and be like, that I knew my brothers
would like, that would wanna be friends with
my brothers. That was important to me.
Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
In a weird way, I felt like I
also, at the time, wanted someone to, like,
take care of me because I was so
young and felt,
you know, you watched all the, like, girly
movies
and you see all these, like,
coming on a horse and, you know, like,
I just I don't know. That's just what
I envisioned at the time and but I
didn't really like, I'm hearing all your guys'
thoughts. I'm like, I definitely was not thinking
about a lot of these things.
Yeah. Well, like you said, you wanted him
to get along with your brothers. I wanted
him to get along with my friends. I
wanted my friends because my friends were a
really big deal to me. I mean, they
still are, but You're an only child. That's
Yeah. Because I'm I'm an only child. Exactly.
And my friends were everything to me and
I wanted my friends
to like him.
It was a really big deal.
One thing I haven't is that's, like, conspicuously
absent
is I haven't heard, like, you wanted a
smoking hot boyfriend.
That's interesting. I'm just thinking of it from
the guy perspective. I wanted to be attracted
to him. He's not my type. That's fair.
Yeah. At all. What's that? He was not
my type. Your your partner was not your
type? No. You know? Skinny jeans.
No. You didn't.
That I completely
relate to that and how he showed up
in
a non American car and I was a
super American muscle
kinda gal and I just did not
did not envision
that going
well just because that was a big deal
for me. It was my childhood. I grew
up around it and,
but yeah. I
mean, he he stole the show though. So
That's cute.
Aw. I'm with you on the American car
thing. I worked for American Steel Company and
Yeah. Had to be an American car. Mhmm.
Yeah. That's interesting.
Cool.
So nobody was looking for Arthur Fonzarelli.
It's a bad reference. Who
is the?
Hey. I don't know. Nick I don't know
Nick Carter. Yeah. Carter? How do you pronounce
that? It's an actual boy boys. Oh, yeah.
Oh.
Oh. Well, that Harrison Ford, who says, like,
a high. We are not. A
whole man. My boyfriend.
What's that? Harrison Ford's my boyfriend even though
he's 80?
Way more.
He's older than my parents, so but I
love that man. Yeah. He is 80.
Me too.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. So
let's flash forward.
Don't give me the please, don't give me
the
transition
from that to this.
What are your needs now?
Okay? So don't we'll get into it, but
don't tell me, oh, here's the story of
how my needs change slowly over the next
20 years. What what are your what are
you looking for now in a partnership? Honesty.
Number 1, hands down. Tell me the truth.
I don't
care what happened.
Straightforward, own it immediately.
And then if I wanna work through it
with you, I'm gonna work through it. Otherwise,
I'm out the door. Like, I don't need
him anymore. That's something I've learned, but I
choose
and it's a daily choice more so than
it ever has been.
So honesty and safety.
Wow. I wish you weren't so wishy washy.
I wish you were till a second. Wow.
You came out of the block on that.
There's no gross to it. No kidding. Communication.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I would add stability,
like, just knowing
knowing what's coming, I think.
Knowing, like, I know
without a doubt that my husband is going
to unload the dishwasher. He always unloads the
dishwasher. Right?
And that
makes me feel really safe and stable
and
and it's, like, a really important thing to
me and it means a lot to me
that he does that. I wouldn't have never
thought
15,
however many years ago,
that
someone unloading the dishwasher would be, like would
make me love my husband more. You know
what I mean? Like, that's a really important
thing.
So can we add to stability consistency?
Mhmm. There's Oh, that's a good one. Yes.
What else?
I need the ability to dream again.
Woah.
Yeah. Let's do it. Keep going. I got
tables, sand
I'm I'm getting emotional. Oh my god.
They got,
you know, every dream I thought I could
have had,
just got tabled
Yeah. If not absolutely burned to the ground.
And it would be nice to look forward
to the future and
have some confidence that, you know,
maybe one of these days,
this dream vacation that I've had, you know,
if I wanna say I I've always grandkids
together.
I I haven't even been able to dream
that we having grandkids together.
I I haven't even been able to dream
that we have we will have grandkids together.
She didn't even know if the marriage was
gonna last Yeah. Mhmm. Oh. For your daughter.
Yeah. I could because last
summer, our oldest went to Greece on this,
like, incredible
trip paid for by some her now mother-in-law.
And
when
she
came back, she and her now husband were
showing my husband their pictures and stuff. And
he's like, I wanna I can't, you know,
I wanna go there. I wanna do all
these things with you. And I'm like, how
dare you? For we've been married all this
time and I have wanted to do all
of these things and you didn't even wanna
live to be 60. And now you wanna
go with me to Europe? Like, screw you.
I don't wanna go there with you.
And, you know, because course, it's a dream
vacation. But, yeah, same thing. It's like you
just put
a summon in all my plans and dreams
for all those areas. Whether we whether we
when we retire, we just retire and sit
around our house like a bunch of couple
of old farts. On your rocking chairs. You
know?
But that we're gonna do it together, you
know, and then we can have we're gonna
have a retirement together that there's anything we
can have together.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's powerful, Ellie. Thank you.
I like that because, like, a year ago,
we were talking in the car one time
about, like, down the road and, like, imagining
that
and shortly after, like, I shut down because
the fear
of addiction and everything coming back in. Like,
I was almost mad at myself for dreaming
in that dream. Mhmm.
It's like I had to shut it down,
and we were in, you know, we were
in a crisis then for so many years
there.
Oh, it was just and not even necessarily
related to addiction, but it was just crisis
after crisis after crisis after crisis, and I
just got to the point, like, I couldn't
even think about next week. It's just what
do I have to do to get through
today and tomorrow? And I know that's actually
how you deal with addiction. Just get through
today, you know, the next minute, the next
day, the one day at a time, but
it's it always seemed to me like one
day at a time, well, I've gotta have
some hopes Mhmm. You know, out there. And
I just had to I couldn't afford to
to have them anymore. Kristen, you brought kids
into the conversation,
so I'm gonna come back to you and
ask.
Are
when you think about your needs today, is
there a need because your kids are a
little younger than some of the other kids
not everybody, but a little younger than some
of the other people's kids around this table.
Is there a need for a partner to
share in the responsibility
Yeah. In the upbringing?
Yeah. Yeah. I,
I get pretty resentful sometimes,
just because
and it's not even that I
mind, like, carrying the load,
but
I feel like I'm not appreciated.
And that's just kind of a given, and
he doesn't
acknowledge
all that I'm doing.
He's in recovery, but he's still very,
kind of parallel lives still, so kind of
in his own world.
And,
and I think he's trying to be a
better I do see him trying to a
better father, and he and he is, and
our kids adore him. And so I like
that he's showing up for that.
But,
yeah, just
I still do all of it, and so
I just wish that,
he would see that or just be able
to step in a little bit that it
wouldn't be so hard for him to step
in to do it.
So hopefully, someday.
Yeah.
Lauren, your partner is
man in the household while you're here and
with the kids and doing the kids stuff
and kid decisions and all of that.
Is that a relief? Because there was a
time when you didn't feel
comfortable leaving it in that situation.
I think so
because I was even nervous to the night
before. Like, I was crying the night before
coming because I was like, I don't wanna
go. I don't wanna go.
And something Were you like, Matt thinks Fonzie's
cool. Wow.
I
don't know. God, this is gonna be terrible.
She doesn't even know who Fonzie is.
I can't picture him in my head, but
I know that he is. Hey.
Because for his whole life, our whole marriage,
he's in the military. So he's gone. And
I do everything because
he's gone. And even when he's there, like,
I know the things so I can do
them better. And I know the way they're
supposed to be done. I know what the
kids like.
And so leaving, like, I've never left the
kids for more than
a night maybe, really.
So I think
as soon as I got to the house
and maybe even in the car and then
I was like,
okay. One of the things for him, I
thought like security was something I always wanted
but like listening to things.
And I don't know the word for it
but like I just want,
like,
like, a piece. Like, just because we've always
been go go go. He's deployed and he's
done this and we start kids young and
everything's been so fast.
And he's naturally like a very, like, motivated
person.
Good or bad.
That, like, I want somebody who just can
be like, it's okay. Like, if I'm freaking
out to not have somebody also, like, hype
me up because
I don't need a hype man. My head's
already doing it.
And so, like, I want someone to just
be like, alright. It's fine. Like, we're fine.
Like, the kids are fine. They're at home.
They're fine.
They're doing
great. Everybody's,
like, not just alive, but they're thriving. They're
they're getting froyo and doing all the things.
He's had birthday parties and church to go
to and stuff. So
I think
leaving here, I I do feel like, I'm
really happy I came
because I feel I think it's was a
good idea. So thank you everybody who convinced
me on Facebook to come.
I don't know if I answered your question.
You did. You actually added I think you
added something besides kids. What I heard
was
that you have a desire for I mean,
after all of you, after you've been through
the trauma and chaos of living with addiction,
you wanted a sense of peacefulness. I guess
I'm choosing a word that you didn't use,
but you and you kinda want him to
be part of delivering.
That you want him to make you
feel like the peace is real real and
Yeah. Or at least not be the cause
of the stress. Yeah. I think those are
two different things, but they're related and important.
I can find my own peace Yeah. If
he's causing the stress, but then he has
to get out the picture.
Lately, he's been peaceful, but
definitely not
be the agitator like he was. Well and
I kind of when you were talking, Lauren,
the word that kinda kept him came to
mind
for me was, like, a sense of contentment
because Matt was always go go go. He
never seemed happy with what we were doing.
There always need to be more of this
or more of that
and and moving trying to figure out the
new scheme and how we're gonna do this
and you know it was just like he
was constantly chasing after something that was never
gonna be enough and that's kinda how I
felt. It was, like, it's never gonna be
enough. It's never gonna be enough. So having
its peace, but there is, like, a contentment
and calmness in your day to day lives
to say, I am happy where I am
and being present. I think that's, like, the
perfect word,
actually. Contentment? Yeah. That's my word. Thank you,
Jerry. Okay. Welcome.
Wrote it down. That's good. That's great. This
is all gonna go into the show notes
at the beginning. Writing that paragraph is hard
for me and you guys are doing it
for me, so thank you. That's great.
Nikki, you
you have, a daughter, a beautiful daughter, an
active, eager, excited daughter, and you shared with
us that
you like the fact that
she wants
you and your husband to both like, she's
you know, where's dad? Is he gonna is
he gonna go on this bike ride? Bike
riding is big for you guys right now.
Is he gonna go on this bike ride
with us? Does that what is that
when we talk about your needs being met,
and we know what a great mom you
are and how important parenthood is to you,
does that give you kind of a warm
fuzzy to see your daughter caring whether your
husband is participating in things or not?
Yeah. Because that was never the case,
before.
She never really
when he was
drinking and even
I mean, we didn't know he was drinking,
but the tension was there and there was
clearly issues going on. But
that I mean, she didn't even used to
welcome him at the door when he came
home. I mean, that was never a thing.
And for her to go from that extreme
to,
is dad home tonight? Like, you know, like,
excited to spend time with him and
now we're biking as a family and it's
almost like she doesn't even need to ask
me if we're going. Like, she's more concerned
about whether he's going because I can do
it with her all the time because I'm
home with her. So, like, we can go
out whenever we want, but she's very much
included
including to him now.
And that definitely warms
and makes me feel good. That's great.
That's great.
Melanie,
your husband passed away.
He died from this horrific disease of alcoholism.
You very bravely and boldly shared your story
with us on the intoxicated
podcast just a few episodes ago. And so,
listener, if you haven't heard that, we recommend
that you go back and listen to it.
It's important
even if you're still with your partner. I
mean, the messages, the themes are super important
from that episode.
But my question to you is,
now that reconciliation
with your partner is not that's not something
that's on the table. So it's not something
that you you would spend time,
other than mourning that. I mean, the mourning
process is important, but it's not something that
you are actively working on or pursuing. One
of the things that you've shared,
and you've gotten some chuckles from us, so
we appreciate it when you've shared that you're
just gonna keep collecting dogs. Like, let's just
add to the dog. That's the plan. Mhmm.
And I know that Sounds great. I know
I know that it gets little chuckles, but
I think there's some truth
to it too. Like,
do you it doesn't sound to me like
you have a need for another romantic partner
necessarily in your life. Can you talk about
that a little bit? Yeah. That's not something
that I,
feel the need to have,
or I'm looking for, or
want the trouble
of
trying to,
I guess,
you you know, dating at my age doesn't
seem it have any appeal to me at
all.
And because
it
was, I was with my husband for a
long time before anything was a problem. So
how am I supposed to trust that the
same thing won't
happen down the road with whoever new partner
that I might have?
So, yeah, it's not I don't I don't
feel like I feel like I can meet
my own needs now, and that started
long before he was gone too that I
had to become more and more self sufficient
because
he wasn't taking care of my needs at
that point. So, yeah, I kinda got used
to just doing it myself. I don't know
if I answered your question. You did. So
that was almost we talk a lot about
detachment. Mhmm. And one of the things that
Sherry and I have come
to really understand, I'd say, in the last
maybe 6 months more than we ever did
before was,
detachment isn't a tactic that you read about
in a book and then you go and
you try to employ it. Detachment
is
a state that you reach. It's a result
of the chaos and the trauma that you've
experienced.
So you reached a point where you recognized
in your relationship when he was still here
with us that you had to do all
these things for yourself. And so
it's not like you just said,
you know, I'm a I'm a 20
24 woman, and I'm gonna 24 year old
woman. 2024. The year. 2024. Okay.
Sorry. I just wanna You're showing me 20
and 24 years old.
I'm just clarifying. I'm setting the scene in
my mind.
Yeah. No. But yeah. You're You all looked
at me funny when I said something.
But I don't. Right.
Right. But so,
that's a great example of how your needs
changed.
The things that you had previously hoped to
be able to rely on a partner
to take care of or to be a
part of, you no longer needed that. It
doesn't sound like you have any interest in
going back to that almost neediness. No. Well,
but but it wasn't like kinda like Ally
said, I had to give up those
dreams and hopes of,
you know, even simple things like being, you
know, 80 80 years old and walking down
the street holding hands. I mean, that was
we we've all seen those little old couples.
Right? Yeah. And the the promise of that
was
gone long before. So it wasn't like I
chose
to not need him, but, you know,
the my kids
are grown. I'm not looking for anybody to
help me with that.
Yeah. I don't need it. I just don't
need it.
I think one of the really important things
that you pointed out, and I wonder if
anyone else would like to respond to this,
you it's almost like a risk reward
when you think about the potential
progression of I mean, that's the
di progression
of I mean, that's the diabolical part of
about alcoholism. You can meet someone that's perfectly
normal and
and,
you know, got all their senses about
them and and seem like the perfect partner.
But then you never know if the slippery
slope is gonna get that person too. And
it's just not worth the risk.
Right. That's super important.
Yep. Does anyone else even though, you know,
even you're still with your partner, do you
relate to that kind
of emotional sentiment, that that feeling of,
I don't know if it's worth putting the
trust,
you know, trying to rebuild the trust, try
to try to get back there with
Or would you ever trust anyone again? I
know, like, there were times when I would
think about our marriage
marriage ending, and I'm like, no. I'm not
gonna take that chance. I mean,
we joke and we say you can't, like,
throw a rock without hitting an alcoholic or
someone who has an addiction. So why would
I put myself out there
with this ocean of potential partners
where there is some sort of addiction,
you know, whether it's alcohol or, you know,
gaming or gambling or porn, I'm like, I
would it wouldn't seem like the reward would
be worth the risk. Yeah. I'm also a
great pessimist, so and I would just have,
like, all kinds of animals, not just cats.
That's good. There's a good variety.
So, I mean, for me, I'm like, no
way. You know? And even at 49 years
of age, I'm like, no. I'd rather be
alone at this point and with Yeah. People
that I really feel comfortable with. Because we'll
carry our trust issues with us. It doesn't
matter who the person is or who the
partner is. Mhmm. Even if it's not her
current spouse.
Yeah.
And that's why I think it was so
important for me to,
like,
get, you know, in touch with a counselor.
1, we were realizing that even though the
alcohol was gone and we were
not in any sort of therapy
together,
I needed to work on some things. So
maybe,
you know, maybe
I would look at it now that the
reward would be worth the risk
after working on myself, but at the time,
no way would I think of that.
That might be something that would be, like,
hopefully, it never happens, but I think it'd
be a long time down the road.
Yeah. A long time down the road. You
have to have a lot of memories to
forget.
Hey. So I still didn't hear,
smoking hot partner as on the needs
list. I mean, maybe for, you know, a
fling, but Yeah. To settle down. You're usually
dumb guys too. Right? Like, you don't tell
me to sit right now. They aren't gonna
be smart and intellectual and I'll try to
update my references. No Ryan Reynolds. No
the guy in Twisters. What's his name? Ryan
Reynolds. So I know him. Yeah. I know
him. Such a big exception. Yeah. Yeah.
Glenn Kyle. Yes. Ryan Reynolds is a gorgeous
human.
Tom Brady is beautiful, very smart, also.
Daniel Reeves. There we go.
Yes. But I'm gonna I'm gonna say, like,
when thinking about, like, attractiveness or being attracted
to someone,
you get to know them and they become
more attractive. Right? Yeah. That's true. I knew
my husband
for
a couple years before
we started dating
and
I didn't think he was unattractive. I just
didn't think anything of him. Like I just
thought he was the guy
that I knew, just the guy I worked
with and that's it you know. I didn't,
that was it, period, that's the end of
the sentence. And so but then once I
got to know him I was like oh
if period. That's the end of the sentence.
And so but then once I got to
know him, I was like, oh, he is
really attractive and, you know, that is, like,
something that And there has to be chemistry,
like Right. I mean, like, all these people
were listing, you know, you could be this
close to them and you're like, like, I
feel nothing for I mean, you're you're beautiful
to look at, but go away. Kanye doesn't
want deodorant. I heard
He's got some weird little
I agree with
you because, like, when my husband was sober
for that dry, drunk year ish time frame,
like, I was so attracted to him for
that time frame. Like, I just loved him
so much.
And
before he relapsed.
I think, like, what you need and the
more they're supplying that, the more attracted you
are to them sometimes.
And then vice versa,
when they're are deep in the drinking and
deep
in whatever
is happening even though you can recognize
that it's the alcohol and it's not the
person, you can
become not attracted to them for that time
too. Oh, I was definitely attracted to my
husband when he drank. You were attracted to
it? Uh-huh.
Because it brought out his
social butterfly
and, like, it changed his personality.
But were you once you knew it was
a problem?
Of course not. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I'm just
saying that I can,
you know Yeah. Shit. Served as a social
lubricant Yeah. In your particular case was cultural.
He might do. He always hated it when
he drank. Like, I mean, that was our
biggest fight for until I knew he was
an alcoholic for 20 plus years.
It would be a fight of me, like,
can you just, like,
at the end of the yeah. Can you
just lay off? Like, you don't need to
constantly be refilling your glass. And I had
I mean, I had no idea. There's so
many you know, looking back, there's so
many things. There's just, like,
my bulb, you know, it all goes off.
But but I was never ever attracted to
any drink. Never.
Lauren, you talked about how
he when he was in his
his sober period between,
you know, before his relapse and now back
into
long term sobriety and recovery,
during during that period before the relapse that
you were attracted to them. After the relapse,
does it make it hard harder for you
to trust and find find that attraction or
that,
I can't wait to hear what you're gonna
say. Yes.
Yes. It has been
very hard. I think think it took I
think I said the other day, it took
until, like, this year to really like him.
And really be like, okay. I like being
around you. Or to feel like
like I I I missed his company or
something. And
then being attracted to him, like
yeah. When he relapsed and it was bad
and it was just
all that was kind of built. Even if
it was, like, a dry drunk and, like,
he wasn't in recovery at that point, it
was still he was meeting a lot of
the needs
that I knew. Like, he was, like, reliable
and he was calm and, you know,
all the things. So, yes,
it has been
probably one of the biggest struggles
now that he's
in sobriety and,
like, actively working on his recovery. It's been
one of the biggest things that we have
to deal with.
To find trust that it's gonna stick around
and stay this way All of it. And
to like him. I like that you used
that. Who else wants to like, there's love
and like. And I always thought as the
alcoholic, the most important thing I can do
is make sure that Sherry loves me.
But I think
sorry to put words in your mouth, but
love was more of a consistent thing, but
there was a long time when you didn't
like me. Is that fair? Yeah. And I
didn't like When I I would love you
for so many things like being the father
of my our children and
I loved you because, you know, we were
partners in so many ways but then
like I didn't
like being around you when you drink I
didn't enjoy it at all like you said
Nicole I those are our arguments like I
didn't like your company because when you were
drinking, you were not the company that I
would want to keep at those
at that point.
Does anyone else wanna chime in on Yeah.
Like versus love, Kristen? Yeah. For sure. I
I don't know that I like my husband
right now. He's not that likable, though, and
he doesn't I don't know that he likes
himself right right now.
Wow. So it's hard. Like, he's not quite
at the year 1 year mark yet, so
he's still kinda digging himself out of the
hole, still in depression and still healing.
And I'm hopeful he'll get back to the
person he was, which was wonderful. You know?
But,
you know, you think about, like, when you
when I met him, I don't know that
I would even go on a date with
him right now just because he's just
blah. You know?
Yeah. I told my kids last summer when
my husband and I were separated,
because I didn't think we were gonna make
it
that because the my oldest was, you know,
well, don't
unconditional.
He he has done something that has hurt
me so bad, not unconditional. He
he has done something that has hurt me
so bad that I don't see a path
forward right now. And whereas the kids, I
don't care what you do, you know, that's
unconditional love. But with him, it's
love. But with him, it's not. It's it's
totally conditional.
And I'm starting sometimes to like him now.
He's,
a little over a year.
But, you know, that that's
it's I'm just on this side alike so
it's real easy for me to tip back
to the other side. Is not enough. Yeah.
If love is not enough to carry I
mean, it's enough to keep me choosing, yes,
day to day. But then if those disliked
days were or or if he were to
fall back on drinking, I think it would
be a lot easier to Yeah.
It's enough to give me hope right now,
but
it's still
hard. Yeah. Mhmm. It was really, like, a
daily thing of do I like you today?
Yeah. Yeah. Do I like you at the
end of the day? And one thing could
have been said that would mean nothing that
it would make me think, no. Today, I
don't like you. Yeah. Exactly. Or the way
your photos look if you're, you know, you
didn't sleep well last night and not to
your own Yeah. Fault, but all these things
you've done in the past, now I can't
think about anything else. One negative comment will
set me off too. Just, like, that little
bit of pessimist side that reminds me of
how he was when he was drinking.
It's triggering.
Yeah.
I think that's so
undervalued.
Is that the right word?
Like, not enough
people talk about how quick it is to
go
in and out of, like,
with somebody, especially through
our process.
Like, it's not just a normal marriage type
of situation at this point. We're like, oh,
we're mad because we got in a fight
over the dishwasher.
Like,
it's
so it goes so much deeper, but yet
it's it's just not discussed. It's not
no one would understand it
Mhmm. Unless it was one of us. Mhmm.
We fought because he was mowing the lawn
in the middle of the afternoon.
Who gets mad at their husband for that?
Except for someone who's triggered because he's doing
something random at the random it's a 100
degrees. Uh-huh. And we fought, like, well, he
didn't fight me, but I
internally
fought him and externally fought him. But, like,
things like that, like the dishwasher.
Yes. So true. Who What any new things
Was it because he used to drink beer
when he mowed the lawn? Like, what what's
the trigger? Not fear.
Because
he
because it's just something that makes no sense,
and things would get done that made no
sense. It's like, this makes no sense for
you to be doing this right now. And
because we had to go to a birthday
party. So it's a reminder of a radical
an hour later. Yeah. We had things to
do and it's like, why are you mowing
right now? So it's it's really those things.
But CNI used to have that just from
him laughing.
Why are you laughing right now? Like,
I used to question it because it he
wasn't this, like,
giggly kinda guy. Yes. So like, anytime he
would like, you know, start laughing, I would
get so mad because I'm like, what does
that mean?
Like, well, what am I missing? Am I
high is he hiding something again? Like,
it just spiraled from there.
So the need, one of the lists,
one of the words that I wrote down
in the list of needs that you have
now that need to be met was consistency.
And it sounds like this that's what this
part of the conversation is all about. That
your partner is predictable
and so you don't have to go back
into detective mode as we say. Right? And
wonder wonder what what do I not know
that's really happening?
I call it my spidey sense. Yeah. And
I tell and I tell them that my
spidey senses are going off. I don't know
if something's off, but my spidey senses are
going off.
And it's good and it's a superpower and
you recognize it but it's not one you
particularly like to use. Right and it's not
necessarily like a laser.
You know it's more like,
like one of those spotlights that throws up
in the sky.
I'm trying to come up with you. Yeah.
I'm trying to a better analogy for that.
Like, it's just, like, a Spidey sense, you're
like, I feel something is off and I
don't know what it is. Right. And, you
know, there is no, like, okay, this is
exactly what it is. Yeah. And you're like
questioning everything. Everything is
feeling unsafe. Yeah. Everything is gonna set you
off. Every little, like, erratic behavior of mowing
the lawn on a 100 degree afternoon. Like,
that just all throws us off.
And then that puts us in this, like,
unsafe, unsecure
position where then we're walking on eggshells because
we're looking around trying to analyze
every situation, overanalyze it. And then
sometimes we turn it back in on ourselves.
Like, are we just being crazy?
And then we get really, like,
self defeating.
Like, we're kinda beating ourselves up. And it
makes had it for so long. It makes
them think we're crazy. Yeah. Like, when you
fight your husband because
he mows the lawn at the wrong time
for you,
you know, it makes them
think we're crazy and then accuse us of
being crazy and then that makes us More
critical. More mad. Yeah. And it's like a
cycle.
You know that I've kind of been okay
with that when he's like you're not making
sense and I'm like,
well, I want Thank you. Potkettle,
New Year's. The I was like, I don't
understand what's going on here.
You know? I don't understand why you got
angry at me. I don't understand
why you were storming or, you know, storming
out at Thanksgiving. I don't understand
what you know, why all of this is
happening,
because we were still in that stage of
always seeing things as individual incidents instead of
Mhmm. Over an overall pattern.
And so, yeah, when I act a little
crazy,
I'm kind of okay with that. And I'm
kind of okay with him having to cope
with that. And I know this sounds angry,
but I am, like, I am really okay
with him coping with my crazy sometimes.
I'm with you on the hook. Yeah. That
sounds like a really healthy self esteem, which
is what recovery on both sides is all
about to me. You're not worried about,
what somebody else thinks of you, whether that's
your partner or not. And that's That's awesome.
I do worry about that. I don't I
don't want to Okay. Put it out there
like but I do worry what he thinks
about me. But at the same time, I'm
like, you know, if you have to cope
with some of my crazy, I'm okay with
that. I like that. Yeah. I think I
think this is a really, really important
part of this conversation because
the stakes are so high for y'all.
Lauren sees mowing a lawn at a 100
degrees in the middle of the day,
and
she starts an argument about it because it's
erratic and doesn't seem right.
And if I'm your husband, I'm like, Jesus,
what do I gotta do to please this
woman?
I'm I'm doing my chore, chore, and I'm
fighting the elements, and
I'm making it happen. But that's not what
it's about for you. For you is,
this this is the behavior that I experienced
when the kind of worst segment of my
life was taking place, and I can't go
back there. And so I just think that's
really, really important for the folks on my
side of the the fence, the alcoholics, to
understand.
It's
what it's about is how high the stakes
are because
you're behaving in a way that
you you have set boundaries and you have
in your head said, I'm not gonna I'm
not going back there. Right? I'm not going
back there no matter what. And you're doing
the thing that makes me think you wanna
go back there.
Well, the problem was too that I didn't
realize that I was triggered by it. Like,
I thought I was just mad about it.
And then I didn't piece that together until,
like, 2 days later that I Well, you
should've listened to this episode anyway. I know.
So I feel like it didn't even have
to be, like, an argument with your spouse.
It could've easily been an internal argument with
yourself, and then you have to figure out
how am I gonna get out of
this and, like, that's when your recovery piece
comes in and how you have to figure
out how you're going to heal from your
own triggers. I know for
a while, it was touch and go with
how to move forward from his triggers and
my triggers. I know for a long time
he expected me to just avoid
his triggers.
And I'm like, it could be popcorn. Like,
I have no idea what how to, you
know,
prevent your triggers from happening. But, like,
they're your your triggers are your responsibility.
And it's it doesn't always need to be
an actual
argument with your spouse, but an argument with
yourself
and going, oh, what am I gonna do
to get this out of my head and
move past it?
And that's that's hard.
Yeah. I think it's also okay if we
don't even know what they all are yet.
Right. Because it's a process for us too.
Right. Sometimes you don't know until it comes
up. Yeah. Like, you didn't know that was
gonna be a trigger for you. Yeah. I
call it feeling spiky.
Yeah. Like, I'm feeling spiky today. I can't
put my finger on it, but I'm feeling
spiky. And if I figure it out, I'll
let you know. Mhmm. Yeah. But in the
meantime, you might wanna avoid me.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And just don't ask any questions
unless this is what can I bring you?
Sometimes even that question. Sometimes that's not exactly
way. Why don't you know. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
How can you not read my mind?
So we talked about
what your needs were
in the way back machine, and we talked
about what your needs are now.
Now let's talk a little bit about the
transition
because I think there's a number of things
at play here. Obviously, you've all been through
a very traumatic, very chaotic,
very
unfair
situation that you've had to survive.
So that's a factor.
But you've also,
grown older and wiser and matured over that
time too. Some of you have had
kids as well during this time.
What are the influences on how your needs
have changed? And do you ever think about
this? Do you
say, I need
consistency
and stability
and peace
because I've been in an alcoholic
relationship? Or is that just because you've matured
and you're you're further along down the path
now?
I think it's both. I mean, I, you
know, I I was 21 or 22 and
now I'm 35
and so of course my needs are gonna
change. I mean, my needs and my friendships
have also
changed. Right? My needs and
like my career have also changed. Like everything
changes as you get older. But on the
same
hand, on the same hand, we- yeah, I'92ve
been in this relationship and we'92ve experienced alcoholism
together and
that has definitely skewed my,
my vision of
or it skewed like, how I think my
life is gonna turn out. Whether it's positive
or negative, it could go either way,
but I think it's just
it just changes your perspective
on things. I think that it shines a
light on
you you've been without the peace and the
contentment
because you're in the alcoholic relationship.
If it was just a normal
marriage
where that wasn't an
issue, those things are still needs, but it's
not
as highlighted
because you didn't have it. Those were all
taken. We weren't safe. We weren't
loved and cared for the way we were
promised. So
those things become even more important.
It's not just the ages because of the,
you know, it's still important otherwise, but it's
it's the lack thereof that made it
even more important. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't
know if any of us could say if
we weren't and if we hadn't been through
what we've been through,
what our needs
would be now. If it or if it's
part of just growing
older and wiser
that your needs change and having had, like,
you know, our biological clock for most of
us is done ticking. So maybe not a
list.
For some of us, it's it's done ticking
by a long shot. But,
you know, so that's certainly not
something that's going on. But
Yeah. I think, like, as I go through
this process and, like, and try to grow
through it, I am trying to be
more mindful of the journey
and more appreciative.
So even when I get into that place
where I feel like my needs aren't being
met,
I'm really trying to look and be like,
okay. Well,
it's still so much better. Like, oh my
gosh. We went to a baseball game. And
I remember last year when we went to
a baseball game, and and it was awful.
And I had all these anxiety,
and this was peaceful. This was fun. You
know? Or we went out, you know,
for a mini for a long weekend and
it was drama free. Wow. Like, this was
really nice, you know. So even if I
don't have
that,
connection
and where my relationship needs as a wife
are being met,
I'm in a better place and he's allowing
me to be in a better place. Well,
in some ways I feel like maybe I
wouldn't have matured as much as I have
if I hadn't been through
this situation.
You know,
like I always say certain events that happened
catapulted me into adulthood.
You know, like I wasn't ready
and
it just happened because of circumstances.
And
I would've gotten older and I would've matured,
but maybe not as much and maybe not
in the same way.
Edie, a lot of people say
that they wouldn't wish the experience that you've
been through, that all of you been through
on your worst enemy, but at the same
time,
you wouldn't
want to not have had the experience because
of the knowledge that you take away. Right.
Are you one of those people that say
that? Yeah. For sure. I mean,
I
it's hard because I think like if I
knew now
that all of that was gonna happen,
would I still,
you know, like, wanna be with my partner?
Would I still have chosen to marry him
him and all of that?
I think I would, you know, because,
I mean, it's definitely
I don't wanna say I'm thankful because that
seems so, like,
wrong and stupid to say, but I would
say in some ways
I'm thankful
for the process and for the hardships
because it's made me grow stronger maybe.
Yeah.
I don't know that I agree with you.
I don't I don't. I so For sure.
Last summer when we were separated, I thought
I'm grateful that I have my 3 kids.
Mhmm. But I wish I would have found
out that I was married and he wasn't
an alcoholic.
He it ramped up. But
once he became an alcoholic, I wish I
would have known because
I was a lot younger. And
and at the same time, I've heard people
who are in
the hell of it now with young kids
and then they have to, like, split time.
And so maybe I wanna change my answer
as I'm saying it because I don't I
would not have given up a second with
my kids.
So I guess
I got to raise them basically by myself.
He was there but he was never
a 100% there.
So I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking that
through because I wouldn't have wanted to for
them to go away, you know, for 2
weeks in the summer or every other weekend
or any of that stuff.
It's tough. Yeah. Choose your heart. Right? I
guess so. Melanie, you were shaking your head.
Yeah. Well,
I don't
I don't wish this on anybody, and I
don't like that I went through it. I
wouldn't wanna I wouldn't if I I would've
changed it if I could. Definitely. Can we
think of the easy pass? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
So I guess I don't know. I mean,
I can understand what you're saying too
because I yeah. And you're well, you know,
I have my kids, and then I I
wouldn't change that for the world
or some of my early life experiences. But,
yeah, if I could've, like, you know, change
take a different fork in the road from,
like, you know, 15 years ago, yeah, I
would've. I wouldn't have repeated that because it
sucked.
Yeah. No. And it's just I'm just still
angry, you know, that I,
like, didn't get what I
thought I married. You know? Like, why? Why?
Why?
You know? And all those memories are tarnished
now. Like, every day Right. From you know?
It it goes back to the dreams. Like
Yeah. You know? Oh, I wanted
it to be different. I guess I also
I guess I also think, like, well, if
it hadn't been this, it would have been
something else.
Like, there is no easy path.
You know?
So I guess maybe that's the truth. I
mean, I get what you're saying, Evie. I'm
kinda kinda like there's a reason
there's for better or for worse in the
married spouse. Mhmm. A very good reason for
that. Yeah. But
at the same time, you can you you
do get kinda blindsided by it. Yes. And
no, I wouldn't wish this on anybody but
I think it was an maybe another,
Echoes Retreat podcast where somebody said, like, if
I changed one thing,
it would have changed everything. Right. Right. And
the person who said it was specifically
referring to her children
or her child. Yeah. I wouldn't change
anything if it meant I didn't have my
daughter. Exactly.
Not a not a damn that no matter
how much I've suffered,
or even that she's suffered, if it means
she's here,
I'll deal with it. Yeah. Yeah.
But at the same time, having to go
through this, you know, there's something I started
saying a couple of year about a year
back,
to some family and friends, and it's,
you know, our relationship didn't tank overnight.
Conan didn't dive into alcohol. He didn't wake
up one morning and become an alcoholic.
This all happened over a long period of
time and it's not gonna be fixed like
that.
And I say this to Kevin. You know,
you didn't become an alcoholic overnight.
You're not gonna wake up one morning and
everything is gonna be great. Mhmm. And, no,
we can't go back in time because that
was another thing he said to me,
prior to coming home. I just want us
to go back, and I said, I don't.
Mm-mm.
We are not going back. That was something
my husband would say, like, can you promise
me we're gonna be like we were no.
I can't promise you. No. That's what we're
gonna be like we're working for. I'm not
the same person. You're not the same I
said flat out no. I said, we are
not going back there because that's how we
got here. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm not doing
this again. Right. You know, we've we've got
our Yeah. We may not have to burn
the whole thing down, but we gotta burn
a lot of it down. We gotta burn
the weeds out. If anything, I just wish
I had
the wisdom
back then. Because if I was gonna go
through it, I wish I would have known
Mhmm. Yeah. How to handle it
better. Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't being tortured
through the process with the
Yeah. And I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know that he was an alcoholic.
So I wish I would have known because
then I could have armed myself
instead of
internalizing,
you know, all the BS that he said.
And to me,
I could have been like, okay. Well, that's
not that's the alcohol talking. Like, that's
but I didn't know. Mhmm. I wish I
would have found echos right after I I
found I used alcohol. Same. Yeah. Same. Same.
Two and a half years later Mhmm. That
I finally
found echoes. Yeah. And I mean, I just
think now, man. Because through all the hell
that I went through, it would have been
so nice to have. I I swept everything.
My parents were the only people I told
and I didn't tell them
half of it. See, I told everybody who
would listen
and that was, like,
not the best choice because you you wanna
talk about, like, your friends liking your husband.
Mhmm. I mean, that kind of shaded their
opinion,
you know. And
I feel like now that I have echoes,
I'm like and my other friends ask me,
like, oh, how's he doing? And I'll be
like,
I'll be like, yeah. He's doing really good
because he is doing pretty good. You know?
And And nothing else. But but, yeah, but
I don't wanna, like, talk about it. You
know? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's dangerous dangerous because your friends have
only your best interest in mind. Right. And
so they're gonna
I think this is just a knee jerk
reaction. Well, why don't you leave them? Because
they want you to be okay, and they
don't want you to have to go through
the hard. Whereas when you meet people who've
been through it, then
they've got, they understand that both both ways
are hard Right. For sure.
I wish I'd even known what I was
known what I was doing. Not not only
known that,
you know, my coming from my grandfather who
had been an alcoholic, so I knew some
of the signs, but I didn't even know
he was drinking. You know, it's only in
10 years hindsight I can look back at
some of the crazy fights we had and
be like Yes. Oh, he must have had
a 5th of vodka. Right. Yeah. You know?
When that happened because it was so nonsensical.
But at the time, I was blaming myself
and thinking something was wrong with me. Yeah.
Exactly. Because we drank together, like, openly, he
would have, like he would leave half he
would leave a beer can in the fridge
almost every night. He would he started buying
those cans of beer, which I mean, in
hindsight, I know why he bought the screw
top cans
and because he probably wasn't drinking beer out
of it. But I would always see it
in the fridge and like, oh, he's not
even drinking a full beer, you know? And
thinking, wow, that's that's not bad. So why
the hell is he, you know, passed out
on the couch and like he must be
really tired. I mean, god, I was so
sympathetic.
And it's like
one of the reasons I really wish I
had
as soon as I had read the first
blog post, I had, you know, contacted you
guys and joined Echos
because I
went through about a year or 2 of
people just telling me I was enabling him.
And I was like, it wasn't enabling him.
I didn't know what was going on. There
were a couple of years that I thought
a lot of his behavior was because he
was having a bad reaction to anxiety medication.
Mhmm.
Because I had no idea that that the
vodka was hidden down in the garage. Right?
Yep.
Yeah. Identifying what you're dealing with is Yeah.
A huge part of it.
You just mentioned, Nicole, that you guys drink
together.
One of the things that we hear a
lot, one of the things that I certainly
felt and I expressed to Sherry
was when we talk about needs changing,
I said, I'm not the one that changed.
We were drinking together when we met.
You're the one that's changed. What's wrong with
you?
Have
you all experienced that? And did that give
you pause? Or were you, like, hell yeah.
I've changed because it's called maturity, and it's,
like, something you're supposed to do. How did
you handle that? Did you
did you get that? You're the one that
changed. You're the one that changed. I'm not
the problem. I didn't get that. But we
I mean, we met when we were, you
know, not even able to drink yet, and
so,
or legally.
But,
you know, we did a little bit of
partying in college, but never
excessive. Mhmm.
And
then
started a family and it was like
a couple of drinks or maybe a drink
a night, but it was not drinking to
excess with the exception of, like,
the occasional
wedding or something like that.
I never would because I was always pregnant
or had a baby or taking care of
somebody, but
the
his really gradually
increased. You know, it was definitely the frog
in boiling water situation. Okay.
But no. He never accused me of changing
because
we never, like, you and Sherry have talked
about, you guys both used to drink a
lot together and we we never did a
lot together.
It was just kind of like
a glass of wine with dinner.
Mhmm. My husband always noticed
when I started to decline and he would
always encourage me,
but it would make me tired. And I'm
like, I don't wanna go to bed.
But what he did accuse me of changes
when he started to notice that I
was still acting myself around my friends and
my family, but I wasn't acting myself around
him. And he would always tell me, why
can't I get the fun Nikki? And I'm
like, because you destroyed that girl, you know,
but, like, they didn't and so they
can still get her and he could not
for the life of him understand how I
could be that way. He could not for
the life of him understand
how I could be that way with them
but not him. This was after
he was sober? Or why are you still
drinking or both? I mean, it was probably
both because I had started the process of,
like,
already being
disgusted with behavior,
before even in the I didn't know he
was drinking. So I didn't know what was
happening. I just know I didn't like it.
Yeah. And so I was already
very well detached from that and just like
because I don't want anything to do with
it. I don't like you right now. How
can I act myself around you when I
don't like you right
now? But he had he struggled big time
with that and he would get super jealous
anytime I'd go out with people,
and it was a big thing.
And my husband knew what he would say,
we'd be all laughing, doing something with the
kids or whatever, and he'd come in the
room and we'd go, kinda just stop. Yeah.
It was because Yes. Because we didn't know
what was gonna what we what was gonna
happen. What was Ruthie walking in the room?
Was he gonna scream at us for be
no. Whatever. You should be out mowing the
lawn. You should be whatever or you know?
So what was gonna happen? So, yeah, of
course, we, like, just all kinda clammed up
and just to
take the temperature before we could do it.
But, yeah, he always would complain about kinda
that too. Like, why can't
you have fun around me? Well, because you're
not very much fun anymore. So That's really
hard to come back from too. Yeah. Still
not, like,
as relaxed
with him as I am with my kids.
Like, I could dance and sing and whatever
for my kids, but if he's there, I
can. Yeah. Still can.
Yeah. He used to tell me I would
sing all the time, and I can't even
do that in the car anymore. Mhmm. Like
Yeah. Isn't that funny? Like, the stupidest thing?
Yeah. Like Yeah. That's a kind of But
you both say and it's like, it's a
safety piece. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Mine was more I got yelled at just
because I would
he would get angry with me because I
wouldn't let him help me.
Then Yeah. I get a little little bit
of that with cooking because, you know That
help was but the help was always, like,
offered
after I was already 3 quarters of the
way do done doing it. Right.
Will you let me help you with something?
You know, it wasn't actually until years into
this that I was like, Yeah, you know,
I would explain to it even then, like,
I'm just kinda used to doing everything for
myself Sure. At the at the beginning of
our relationship, and then, you know, towards the
end, it was kinda like, well,
I'm always doing it, you know, myself.
And isn't it funny then how they even
question
why
we say we don't need them anymore because
we proved to ourselves that we can do
it all on our own. Mhmm.
Right. Kristen, you talked earlier about an event
that you and your partner went to and
you were able to relax. You were able
to have fun,
but it wasn't necessarily
because
he was there and you felt connected to
him.
It was because he wasn't
making you,
you know, walk on eggshells. And Yeah. So
it was it was less about his companionship
and more
about him not getting in the way of
your peace and contentment. Did I Yeah. Did
I hear that right? Exactly.
Yeah.
So let me ask the whole group kind
of kind of with that thought in mind.
When we get into these romantic partnerships, one
of the reasons is for lifelong potentially
lifelong companionship.
When
there are, you know,
traumatic experiences
and,
it all spins out of control and doesn't
go the way you want it to,
we still we're still humans, and we still
have needs for companionship. Do you found that
you have found all of you found other
outlets
for your need for companionship
and that you don't necessarily rely on your
partner as much for that as you maybe
previously did or or hope that you'd be
able to.
Mhmm. That's a slippery slope. Mhmm. Yeah. Oh,
I was gonna say Melanie said she was
collecting doll dogs
and I they are
yeah. I mean,
I don't have kids and
they're
I I made a joke to my husband
the other day. Like, we're so obsessed with
our dogs. If we ever had a kid,
I would I can't imagine how much more
obsessed we would be with our kid.
Like, it's
like a kinda weird. I mean, we know
they're dogs but, you know, it's I'm a
prime example of that.
Right. I mean
so,
I mean, yeah, dogs
are great companions, and and I also
girlfriends. Right.
And I and I also feel like I
have
I love my husband, and I'm
glad he's we're together and
whatever, but I also feel like I have
less of a need for companionship
at this point, you know, because like what
you guys said,
I realized I can do things myself, and
I can,
you know, be I can be happy alone.
I can
Yeah.
I have a friend I go to lunch
with every now and then,
that I never did before, not necessarily for
any reason. I don't know. I just didn't.
But also 2 of my kids are
adults now,
in their twenties. And and lots of times
I will talk to them not about, you
know, things that I shouldn't be sharing but
like adult conversations
about work or about life or whatever that
I just naturally share with them. And I'm
not trying to withhold it from my husband,
but I don't have a need because he
used to not listen to me, you know?
There were so many years. Not remember. He
wouldn't remember. Like, he couldn't remember who I
worked with. I'm surprised he remembered where I
worked. He trained you to He trained me
not to talk to him about it. So
now when he asked.
Guy was bad. Very much so. Sometimes I'll
answer and then I'll be like, oh, crap.
I just gave all this detail and why
did I waste all this crap? Yeah. You
know? Yeah. Will.
Well, I just wrote about that though about
my effort and, like, the relationships that feel
effortless to me
because I've created this, like,
friends and family, like, type group that
it feels effortless to me to have that.
And it feels like I have to put
a lot of effort into my
relationship with him.
And it's a choice that I have to
make, and it's really hard. And shouldn't that
tiring? Shouldn't that be more effortless? Sure. Especially
at this point in your marriage. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Exactly.
Well, it it strikes me that when I
watch you guys communicate with each other,
the stakes aren't as high because
you don't feel like there's a risk to
that. That. You guys have all pushed across
the boundary of vulnerability
and found a way to be honest with
each other. And so
you have companions in your life where you
can be honest and vulnerable
and you never get stung, like, ever.
And so,
the the stakes aren't as high because,
they're, you know, the the just the risk
isn't there. The fear isn't there. Is that
when you talk about effortless, that's what comes
to mind for me. They get it. Yeah.
They get it. It's not
I mean, it's not something that
I have to think about.
I feel like I have to think about
our conversations.
It's not just
flow.
Like, I feel like I
still tiptoe on some things, and
I don't have to do that with anybody
else.
And that was because of things that would
get hold held against me or things that
would get twisted,
or circular arguments,
all of that.
It it was exhausting and traumatizing,
and
I don't have that with anyone else. And
so now it's the fight of
we both need to have the energy level
to put into. I mean,
we're coming up on 5 years sober, and
it's finding the time and the effort to
really push into the relationship that is the
one that's the most important.
Like, this is my future. This is my
family.
Like,
it's a big deal and we both have
to find some type of middle ground to
figure out how to do it all.
Well, I'm just gonna jump in and say,
I think for me, I had to kind
of because I withheld a lot from
a lot of people and kinda withdrew when
Matt was really drinking, especially after, like, I
got, like, answers like, just divorce him or
it's not my problem. Yeah. You know?
So I kind of, you know,
went into myself, but then,
Matt, you were always, like, a person that
felt like you didn't need help from anybody.
It was supposed to be you and I
conquering the world. We're doing it together. Blah
blah. And I felt like just for me,
I had
the desire that I needed to have connection
outside of this. I looked at it like
this is a relationship I'm choosing to have,
and I want us to be partners, and
I want us to be teammates, but you
can't be my everything. But you only wanted
me to be your everything.
And so that's why I think now I
look at it like it's a much healthier
relationship because I don't have to come with
you to come to you unless I want
to with every single need, but you're not
gonna be able to fill all those. And
I feel confident that you can receive that
information
and and know now
that you're not gonna fill all of my
needs. I'm gonna need to have my girlfriends.
I'm gonna need to have my kitten time.
I'm gonna need my alone time. I'm gonna
need my snuggle my kitty cat time and
you're gonna be okay with it because you
are not,
you know, being
filled with depression and anxiety
and the addiction anymore,
but I think that's a a confidence piece
that had to come that I had
really, like,
been looking for.
And, you know, was like, you don't need
everything from me, and I don't need everything
from you.
And so we have
a much stronger bond because of our self
esteem.
And you recognizing that that it's okay for
me to go and get some things outside
of
the the relationship,
you know, for
support, camaraderie,
connection.
Well, I think
one of the things that has happened for
me not only as you and I, Sherry,
have worked on our relationship recovery,
but probably
even more so
as I've met all these other wonderful people
who are
have their own struggles and are coming back
from their own traumatic experiences,
and I've seen the consistency. I mean, consistency
was one of the needs that you all
shared.
Also
one of the attributes that you all share.
The stories are so consistent. Maybe the rock
bottom moment is different. Maybe the age is
different. Maybe how long the progression took is
different.
But there's so much consistency
to how it impacted you as individuals
that it's super telling and it helps it
helps me honestly.
I think one of the biggest blessings of
my life through knowing all of you
is that I understand how precariously
perched my relationship is. I understand how 10
you know, how close I am every moment
of the day to losing my family.
And that's actually super helpful. And that's one
of the messages that I was hoping with
this with this topic about
needs and changing needs that we could deliver
to to our listeners who maybe are on
my side of the fence, the alcoholics,
and the ones that are in recovery, the
ones that have been years in recovery, and
are like, hey, I haven't drank forever. Like,
look at me. I'm good now.
I think it's important for us to understand
that
we don't
fill the need in our partners that maybe
we did at the beginning. Maybe we have
the potential potential to for our whole relationship
had things stayed smooth.
The fairy tale. Right? I mean, the
the prince charming bullshit, all of that. Like,
if you've been through what you all have
been through, you don't need a prince charming
anymore.
And it's really helpful to me to
know that I'm behind the cats on your
list of people you love, Sherry. I'm way
behind the kids.
Like, the kids are in a different, like,
stratosphere for me. Kids are probably above the
Cavs. Yeah.
Likeability wise, it's a day to day situation.
Love is always.
But when I'm when I'm making an action
plan and I'm just trying to proceed through
the day, it's really helpful for me to
know,
that the things that I maybe thought were
a given are not. And just because I
was sober for a little while doesn't change
that. Like, it's kind of permanent now.
She's figured out how to live without me
if she has to, and so I gotta
keep showing up if I wanna be a
part of this. I think that's really important.
Well, I think that's where the also that,
like, healing in the self,
like, the self discovery and the recovery piece
needs because I can't understand all of your
situations and feelings and things you went through
with the addiction. And so that's why you
need to find community
that can help you decipher some of that.
So then it's just not laying at my
feet and I'm supposed
to fix you and
lift you up, and we know that we
can't be
everything to each other
and and that it does take more than
just the 2 of us. So I think
oh, go ahead. Oh, I think that's part
of when I said, like, thankful
earlier. That's kind of part of what I
meant.
Like, I don't know that I would have
realized
what I was capable of
doing on my own if I hadn't gone
through this experience. Like I don't know if
I would have
matured in the same way
and become as competent
if I hadn't gone through this experience.
Would I like to go through it again?
No. I would not.
But,
you know
Yeah. And you did some hard stuff Yes.
While you were
fighting through this addiction and Right. Living separate
and Right.
Really
astounded yourself with what you Yes. I did.
And I don't know if that would have
happened if
the addiction hadn't been there. I just I
don't know if I would have found it
within myself. You know? Mhmm. I don't know.
Well, I like I like what Matt just
said it out.
Like, his role
the the role that he plays in Sherry's
in the relationship with Sherry has changed Mhmm.
You know, as a result of the addiction,
and it's not the same role that it
was before. Mhmm.
And that's
well, that just made a big light bulb
off with me.
My role is not the same as it
was
before, and I'm not even sure what it
is.
So that's gonna be, you know, a discussion
I can have when I get home,
but also, you know, one of the I
could I can definitely name one of the
roles that my husband has always seen himself
in which was
protector.
Mhmm. You know, he's a serviceman. He's a
protector,
but
after all of this, he comes roaring in
and wants to protect me. I'm like, I
need you to protect me. Exactly. I needed
protection from you. That's huge.
Yeah. For many years, it's protection. So it's
it
it it I get that it's important for
you to see yourself as the protector of
the family, but that is not at all
how I see you,
you
know.
You have different roles now. Yeah,
and
just being aware of that. And that's so
that's why I hope that people on on
my side of the alcoholic relationship who who
might be listening to this episode
don't, you know, can can kind of release
the instinct to say,
when is my wife ever gonna be over
this? When is she gonna when is she
gonna let me back in? Like, well, the
answer is never. Like, it's this is just
the we've all changed. Mhmm. And it it
doesn't have to be a bad thing. It
can be a road forward
if you're willing to take it. And I
really love, Nicole, what you said much earlier
when you talked about how
romantic partnerships, marriages, they're not they're not unconditional.
I think that's I think there's a lot
of people
and and people can disagree with me certainly,
but there's a lot of people who just
think that because of those wedding vows we
talked about. It's just that chemistry that makes
you a little crazy in the beginning. Right.
But it wears off. Yeah. And then you're
left with what I believe is the most
conditional love and the most conditional relationship there
is. It's this partnership that depends
on 2 people to be,
pulling their way and one one of them
stops pulling their way. Trustworthy and faithful and
consistent and secure and and when that goes
away Yeah.
And the ability to dream.
I did not see that coming, Ellie. I
love that. I love that you added that.
Thank you very
much. This has been a great conversation.
I think what we should do now is
pull that microphone out of y'all's faces
Intoxicated podcast, and thank you for being here
in rest of it. Thanks for being on
the intoxicated podcast, and thank you for being
here in the mountains with us for this
weekend. Thanks. Love you all. Thank you. Thank
you. Ice cream. Right? Thank you. You have
ice
cream.
Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
three resources.
If you love or loved an alcoholic, we
offer support and connection in our Echoes of
Recovery group. Check us out at echoes of
recovery.org.
If you are a high functioning alcoholic seeking
methods and connection in early sobriety,
we're ready for you at shoutsobriety.org. No matter
who you are, there's something for you in
our
sobriety.org.
No matter who you are, there's something for
you in our book. Sober Evolution, evolve into
sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go to
sober revolution.org.
For my wife, Sherry Salas, I'm Matt Salas.
Thanks for listening to the Untoxicated
podcast.