Welcome to the intoxicated
podcast.
Well, I'm Sherry S, and that was my
husband Matt. We have questions about the impact
of alcohol and addiction on relationships. If you
have those kinds of questions to you're in
the right place, Here we go.
I was thinking about something the other day,
Sherry.
We have had a lot of summer events
it being middle of the summer now
without alcohol, either,
we were the only ones not consuming or
just an event that was alcohol free.
And,
like, I I feel like this is the
first summer
where I don't miss it. Like, I can
do in a whole event and not even
notice that there's no alcohol or not even
notice
that other people are drinking and I'm not.
Like, it's not even a thing anymore
but it feels pretty cool. Have you noticed
that at all? I have. Well,
I thought this was pretty cool. We did
host a party.
And it was at our house, just a
little backyard kind of barbecue gathering.
And 1 of the people
brought over, like, a travel water bottle, you
know, like a insulated water bottle.
And they said, oh, I put a little
wine in here You gonna be upset if
I drink wine and I was like, no.
And then
I noticed it was sitting in or inside
the house, like the whole time. And I
asked them. I said did you
did you want a different container for it
after I realized it I, like, no. I'm
just not even interested in drinking. So I
think because our whole environment was alcohol free
and were still having a good time,
even though there were people there that would
drink if drinks were available. Yeah. I think
they felt comfortable
not drinking. I've never understood those people that
can take it or leave it. I... Yeah.
And I brought 1 in a thermos.
It would have been gone in the dry.
Way. That's right.
But so that part just for that person's
sake was pretty cool. Yeah. But I noticed
that too.
And and. We had a good time that
night. And we stayed we had a great
time. Yeah. We've we have hosted a couple
of events. We had a daughter who graduated
college, so that's 1 of the
reasons that we've hosted a couple of events
where there's no alcohol and it really wasn't
missed it. It's only like in hindsight that
I'm like, oh,
Like, well, for for instance, 1 of those
college
graduation kind of events
was at her college. The day graduation and.
So there were probably... I don't know throughout
the day. Open house style 30 or so
college graduates that came over, and no 1
said, you know, where's the beer cooler
Where's the wine? Yeah. Nobody even seem to
care. Yeah actually really jealous of college age
kids. But it's because they don't seem to
care.
About alcohol the way, our
age, us jen ers. Mh cared about it
at that you know, stage. And I don't
honestly think that they just... I mean, it's
entirely possible that our daughter told them a
little bit about our situation, and they were
like, oh, you know, this is Katherine the
1 with a drunk dad, so we can't
drink around him, but it didn't seem that
way. It didn't seem like it. It didn't
seem like they were hurrying away, like, oh,
Right. This the so party. Let's let's high...
Tail it to the the 1 where we
can get get our drink on. Yeah. That's
definitely how would have been in our day.
Yeah. Because I think like, we kind of
wrapped it up around, like, 7 or something,
7PM. We kind of... That's what she said.
Because there were other people in town. And
people that were a little bit more local
or whatever that we're hosting. And so like
you said, it was open house coming and
going. But... Yeah. I didn't feel like people
that came even early were hurrying to get
away. Yeah.
I sure wish they would have eaten a
lot more though.
You made a heck of a spread.
Anyone who ever gets invited to something where
you're preparing the food, they should come with
an empty stomach. That's all I'm saying. Because
it is going or May.
We're also speaking of Gourmet We went camping.
Mh. And no,
you know... There was shortage of food there.
There. Yeah. But, you know, that's the kind
thing that, like, in early... And when I
say early sobriety, I mean, the first few
years,
certainly, maybe by the third year of sobriety,
I wouldn't have been, like,
dealing with temptation to drink on a camping
trip, but I would still think about it.
Probably several times during the day. Like, you're
sitting by the campfire fire, and
man, wish I had something to drink right
now. Mh. I don't do that anymore, but,
boy, I kinda miss it.
And just
just so interesting to me how the brain
works how that
subconscious portion of the brain and the part
that where the triggers come from, Right, the
part where, oh, here is an event
that I've done many times in the past,
and every time I did in the past,
there was alcohol involved so where's the alcohol?
Like, you know, for people who are in
new sobriety
grilling out for in instance. I know I
basically had to stop grilling for a while.
It was so triggering. Mh. And
then I slowly got back into grilling, and,
you know, still kind of
thought about alcohol while I was grilling and
now it's to the point where it just
doesn't even enter my mind and that's such
a blessing.
But it's a
it's a kind of,
not a warning.
It's an example of how long
recovery takes
you know, not to get over the hump
of, oh my god, I might
I might be forced to drink because the
craving is so strong. I mean, that know,
maybe that's a year or so.
But the lingering thoughts go on for years
and years until you're sitting there at year
3 or your 4 thinking... Oh my god.
If I'm still thinking about alcohol. I'm just
gonna think about it for the rest of
my life. But that's not true.
Just give it that a little more time.
I'm 7 and a half years sober.
And sometime in the last year or 2,
it, like, the desire, any kind of thought
about alcohol has pretty much gone away.
I mean, I... Let me be clear about
this. I can in a conscious state. I
can say listen. What would it be like
to drink
whiskey on ice.
From now until
midnight tonight,
you know? And I can think oh, that
would feel really good.
I don't mean to make it sound like,
like I'm cured or something because I'm not.
I can still think about
drinking alcohol on a Saturday afternoon gonna beer
on a Saturday afternoon in the sun and
just,
you know,
laying back in the adi chair and soaking
up the sun and drinking a 12 pack
of beer, and that still sounds better than
most things I can think of.
But it... I'm not just trigger to think
about that
without sitting down on a conscious level and
concentrating on it. I can do pretty much
anything there is do
without alcohol ever entering my mind.
Yeah. And that's a pretty big blessing.
Those parties camping,
we had retreats
with our of recovery group and with our
marriage evolution group.
In the recent past,
whether they're just day treats where
we see folks for just during the daylight
hours or but the longer sleep over retreats
that last long weekend,
and
it's not there. I don't think about it.
I go the entire event out thinking about
it once. And I have to consciously think
back on it. And they're fun. There's no
shortage of fun, do you think?
For lack of alcohol? Yeah. Absolutely. No shortage
of fun. Fourth of July, we went to
a parade and then we went to fireworks.
Again, just never never came up.
We've been to a couple of small concerts.
Where
I can't even remember necessarily if people were
drinking,
but I know
we weren't. Beer garden. Yeah, or there were,
you know, like, tents. So I'm sure they're
were, but we just weren't really paying attention
because we were enjoying the company them music.
And sporting events, major league baseball game and
college soccer and,
yeah. I know they're beer served it both
of those, but
That's the thing.
In sobriety, I used to... Even when I
didn't... Like I said, feel cravings for drink
to drink and I knew I was gonna
make it through the event without and I
wasn't
worried.
You know, that, oh, is this gonna be
too much. Like I was over that hump,
but I still would notice people drinking. I
would look around and see who was drinking
and who wasn't. Mh. And that's all gone.
What a blessing. And 1 of the things
that makes it easier.
1 of the highlights of the summer beverage
wise has been that alcohol free, Sang,
recipe that you worked out. Oh, yeah. That's
good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. They turned out pretty
much.
I used... I made, like, hi tea. It's
a tart
flower,
that's kind of Indian and mediterranean.
And I made a, like, a concentrate, and
then
use some stone fruits
chopped up,
and I may... So like trauma?
Why use plum and cherries and
nectar,
I think,
Yeah. Yeah. And then
you know, because that goes in the bottom
of Ingredient, and then Pomegranate at juice, and
then you could serve it on ice if
you wanted it, like, to kinda strong Or
and lots of that own fruit was just
floating in the pitcher. So... Yeah. I mean,
it weighs at the bottom, but it adds
a lot, and then there's, like, you put
little touch of, like, honey and water and
lemon zest, but it was really
really easy and, like, we added some sparkling
water to it
to kind of lighten it up because, I
mean, I liked San when we drank out
when we drank out alcohol, but that was
a, like,
a small portion because it's so much sugar
from the fruit.
That it just, you know, hangover over hell.
And got it. Yeah. I loved it, and
it wasn't that, like, it felt like a
replacement for alcohol, but there was a lot
going on, and it was, you know, it
was... You know, I drink a lot of
soda water, sometimes soda water would lime.
So it was weighed different than that. It
was
there was a lot going on, and it
tasted special. It was delicious. Yeah. Well, done,
Sherry. Thanks.
Let's remind folks
that
later this week,
this is our last podcast for July.
That's being released. And on August first,
we're having a q and A session, information
in q and session about our echoes of
recovery program, our shout sobriety program,
and our marriage evolution program.
So if you have been on the fence
if you've been listening to the podcast for
a while and you thought, man,
maybe maybe that's my tribe. Maybe it's not...
I don't know.
I don't know if I wanna go through
the hassle of enrolling and and figuring out
how to join this group.
If if you wanna take, like, a baby
step with no commitment necessary, you can join
us for an information and question and answer
session that we held on August first at
06:30PM
in the Mountain Time zone.
And to get the Zoom link and attend
that session. All you have to do is
send an email to matt at
sober and una ashamed dot com.
And
you can show up with an alias, and
you can show up without turning your camera
or your microphone on and just sit in
the weeds and listen. So this is as
low
you know, the the low risk as lower
bar
of,
you know, stepping outside your comfort zone has
I think we can possibly make it. We'll
have some folks from our different groups that'll
be attending and talking about their experience a
little bit, and then we'll be take will...
And Sherry and I okay share some information
about the groups, and then we'll be taking
questions. The whole thing will go for about
an hour,
and you
are invited to attend. If you are even
remotely interested
in any of our groups. So just send
that email, and we'll get you all set
up o, last thing I'll say is, we
aren't gonna save those emails for repurposing. You
won't get marketing from those emails later. You
won't get... Hey. What'd you think of the
Q and A? Are you gonna join us?
Nothing like that. We'll just send the link
and be out of your way.
So lots of people have already expressed interest.
We'd love to have more.
Our resentment holding you back. That's our topic
for today.
Sherry,
you
were recently
at a meeting at the church where you
are the children's minister,
it was, like a committee meeting,
and you were shu
when you
made a point about something.
I wanna say recently, this was a few
months ago. A few months ago. And what's
interesting is you're still upset about it. Because
you just mentioned it last night. Yeah. So...
Because I had a meeting yesterday, and it
reminded me. Oh,
so we I got just at. That was
the meeting. I was just at Well, I
will not say shit.
Actually, it said some stuff, but I definitely
did not enter checked or expand on
action items. Well, when you were telling me
about the meeting and you were made reference
to the fact that you had been shu,
and I knew that the s
was a couple of months ago, I said
to myself. Well, that's
that's a resentment that's wedged itself in there
pretty good. And now, you are well known
far and wide for
someone has crossed you holding grudges.
But this is someone. The person who shu
you is someone that you really care about
and really like, and
you are mutually helpful to each other in
many ways.
So it's kinda like a marriage. You're kinda
like marriage this. Like, it was shocking. I
know. That I was, like, so,
like, dismissed. But the point is this isn't
the kind of person that you can just,
you know,
wipe your hands clean and say you're dead
to me. Right.
So someone that you like can care about
it and and I would say love. I...
I you have a very close relationship with
this person.
This person
wounded you, and you are still upset about
it. Boy, does that sound like an alcoholic
marriage?
So you're holding on to a resentment. Now,
I don't wanna paint that picture as though
you're the only bad guy out there. I
too. Am I'm holding resentment. I don't know.
I I thought about it a little bit.
I don't know. I know you know about
these situations, but I don't know if you
know how much I still think about them.
I am a high school soccer coach.
And I have been passed up for jobs
in the past. Now there's 2 ways that
I've been passed up. I've been passed up
for jobs where I have no connections I've
sent in my resume, have expressed interest and
been passed up.
That, for whatever reason doesn't bother me at
all. This is a very cut throat business.
There are way more people who want to
coach High school soccer than there are high
school soccer coaching positions for.
Yeah. That doesn't bother me. The ones that
bother me are the people who I I've
developed relationships with and they still pass me
up. And there are a couple
that I can think of in particular
that I think about
when I'm win a state title someday.
I know that's optimistic to say. But we
say, talk your way into the success you
want, You know? So I I play into
1 day when a state title. And when
I win that title. I I'm not kidding
when I say, I know what my first
2 phone calls will I will call those
2 people and say gosh. I really would
have liked to do that at your school,
but too bad. You didn't have a confidence
in me to to hire me so instead
or something like that.
Yeah.
So I hold resentment too. Now do I
really think I'd make those phone
Think so. That seems like sour grapes. That
seems like the kind of thing you don't
do. You take the higher of that situation,
hope, but I will want to. I will
want to so bad. I wanna rub it
in.
So I've got my own set of resentment
now. 1 thing that we've learned
through our own
resentment processing
through our own alcoholic marriage and through working
with other people
is that acknowledgment is more important than the
apology.
Right? That was the case
as far as how you felt about me.
All the things that I did as an
active drinker
to cause trauma and chaos in a relationship.
And then, you know, I was half blacked
out half the time anyway.
And so
you weren't necessarily looking for an apology. You
were looking for me to acknowledge that your
experience was valid?
Correct. Yeah.
Yes. Correct. So when when... We... Because let's
just just just
add this
we get apologize to
all the freaking time. What do you? Why
that, like, the sober partner from the partner
with the addiction. Sorry I'm gonna do better.
Sorry I'm gonna keep it under control. Sorry
I that
sorry Sorry.
Are. Sorry. So you're sa
are so worthless
at the point where you are discussing the
resentment. That that's 1 reason I didn't wanna
sorry. I go further than that. I don't
just think they're worthless.
When I apologized, and then I repeated the
same
terrible behavior.
It was it was worse than worthless. It
was painful
that
I would say I'm sorry. And then do
the thing I just apologize for. It was...
Right? I mean, you've told you I it's
almost like... Well, I don't I seen... How
stupid are you. But I don't know if
I would like... I don't know if that
point I would call it painful because I
had already been burned too much to really
believe your apologies. So I had already been
like, ugh, Okay. That's nothing word. So if
until maybe in the beginning when there were
Sa and then you did it again then
I was pain and hurt by it. But
by the point
in which we are speaking about it's worthless.
Yeah. Human might as well in saying Gobble
gu because that's the same amount of credibility
I give to your apologies
because I had already became resent and closed
off and attached that that's why I can
say those were kinda worthless
and pointless.
And let's pick painful for a while. The
the the alcoholic who apologize as we go
along. So my pattern would be,
drink too much,
same things,
have a erratic behavior, have mood swings,
say yes, we'll leave the party at 10PM
and then stay till 2AM. Whatever it is,
These things.
Do that.
Blame you for it. It's your fault. Why
can't you loosen up? Why aren't you more
fun? Why aren't you drinking with me? What's
the matter with you?
And then the next day,
maybe that's when, like,
I'm trying to process it all, the resentment
or the... Not the resentment the the regret
starts to sink in. And then I spend
maybe a day or 2 apologizing.
And then we spend some period of time
time often weeks
where we're just going along normal,
and then I overdo it again and the
cycle starts again. Right? Yeah.
I think it's important to acknowledge that that's
the most common
experience, but there are people out there for
whatever reason
that their cycle does not include the apologizing
park.
So
a lot of the same behaviors we talked
about, but when it comes to that day
or when I'm fully of regret shame
and just embarrassment,
where I am apologizing to you. They just
kinda go quiet and don't apologize. Guys. And
so there are some loved ones of alcoholic
because there are some spouses of alcoholic that
have never been never received an apology. Never
been apologized too. Yeah. And so for them,
part of the resentment processing is the apology.
But the idea that the amend process in
the 12 step
waits to slate clean and takes care of,
but that's just not the case.
Because a men's is media alcoholic
telling you the victim of my alcoholism as
Gary, Here are the things I did bad,
and I'm sorry. And I want you to
know. I'm sorry. And how can I make
it up to you?
And that's just not gonna hit home for
you?
Yeah. Because because I don't get a chance
to other than... I mean, the question that
you've posed me is how can I make
this up to or whatever? You know, just
doesn't seem as
as thought. Full for the
person that you've wrong to be able to
speak their peace of mind. And maybe it
is... Maybe that's the answer to what can
Make this up to you? Well, you can
sit in that chair in and you can
sit there for a good long time
That's right.
Well I tell you how my experience was.
Right? Yeah.
But so that's the the typical
resentment processing. It's not an apology. It's not
an men's. It's an acknowledgement
by the anchor that your experience Sherry, the
loved 1 is valid and true and painful
and that
you know, that that I... That my drinking.
We're big on blaming the alcohol, blaming the
alcohol ism
that my drinking
was what caused that experience. Yeah. And sometimes,
there would be conversations, and I know that
we've said this on the podcast, but I
wanna reiterate
because we also say it in our groups
many times. There were some
situations that I had to kind of walk
through and talk through with you
several times, because maybe I did feel like
I got it all out or maybe I
missed an important piece or, maybe after kind
of like,
you know, it's like an onion. Like, after
I peeled off the first layer,
maybe there was some second layer that I
was, like, kinda hit, but then I was
like, oh, but this is really what I
was, like, Yeah. This is the core burn.
Like I thought about.
You know? And now it's like, that was
the core, and that was the maybe the
core or the the thing I really want
you to understand about that particular situation.
This is it. I'm also, like, a little
bit of a verbal processor. So it takes
a while for a me to
kinda... I have to loop back things sometimes.
So you kinda had to endure that a
couple of times of
hearing the same kind of scenario over an
over. And also, I was looking for your
reaction? Because I thought, shit... How many times
have you told me the same shit over
and over.
You know? It's just fair.
For me to get it off of my
chest, and I wanted to see your reaction.
So that's where I think the men's process
is a little short sighted versus the resentment
processing
if you have that opportunity to do it,
you know, to the partner. Yeah.
Because I really needed to see
your reaction,
and I really needed to feel
that you are really
engaged with what I was saying.
Yeah.
Because I think the amend process too. There's
a lot of you write it out. So
you're just reading what you wrote. Or they're
reading what you wrote, and I think that
voice inflection really adds a lot
of energy to the
conversation. Yeah.
So that's what resentment processing looks like when
you have a partner that's receptive to do
the resentment processing with you. Which is not
always the case in absolutely. It's not the
case.
I lot somewhere around 50 percent of the
time.
Maybe the majority of the time you don't
have the partner to resentment process with either
because you've parted company from that person or
because they just can't do it.
There are a lot of people out there
that can't sit and listen
to the
experience
without re them. Yeah. And a lot of
them say,
you know, and I used to say this.
Why? Do we have to go through that
again. Why do you have to drag up
the past? Like, hey, I'm sober now we're
trying to move forward,
what is wrong with you? Well, I'm here
to tell you
until that resentment is processed. 1 way or
the other. It is not going lingering.
Lingering and lingering is lingering...
Participate in that or not.
Well, and I think
that that's where
when they say the work of recovery. You
know, it may not happen.
I mean, more than likely, it's not gonna
happen that first year.
It may not happen in that first 18
months or 2 years because the person that
you are gonna be, you know, the attic
that you're gonna be talking to has to
have a really
well
adjusted ego and there has to be humility,
and there has to be
you know, a lot less shame and self
confidence to be able to take that words.
Also, that's why I think with
Mitchell and Anna from we are recovery that
really
really like that like having that third party
entity who's the attic. The blame. To blame
the alcohol and blame the attic, and then
you're kind of like, launching it off to
this other thing that is no longer existed
because I used to think like, oh, that's
junk mat.
This is normal map. You know. But then
after a while, of years and years of
drinking that drunk behavior even it gets sprinkled
into
the not drunk or the normal or the
sober mat. Mh. You know? So then it's
this line that's getting crossed and blurred. Mh.
Because of the behaviors, the alcoholic behaviors during,
you know, days of sobriety. Yeah. It's still
there. So
what do you explain for that? So that
was a good way for me to be,
like, oh,
so just when it's it's not just the
alcohol, but it's the attic that lives inside
him. Mh.
Yeah. Because point. But this... So this is
all stuff that you can do resentment processing
wise
when you have access to
the person to do the resentment processing with.
What about when you don't?
What about those cases like we said,
maybe the majority? I don't know.
Where you can't process with the alcoholic for
1 reason or another.
What does
resentment processing look like then
without the other person.
Let's think about... Let's go back to our
our cases of the resentment that you and
I are currently holding. Because I would argue
that these are all resentment that we are
not going to ever be able to to
process with that person, even though you're very
close with 1 of them,
that'd be a tough to bring up and
say, hey. Do you remember this meeting, this
is what you did to me.
So
so thinking about my case first where Passed
over for high school soccer coaching jobs.
I I thought a lot about this today.
I think that it helps me to move
past this resentment. When I think about what
was the person afraid of
that caused them to make the decision not
to hire me for the specific position.
What were they afraid of? And you so
I... Like I said, there's 2 specific cases
in my head.
1 of them,
I really feel confident
that
I didn't get hired for that job
because...
Because the other person going for that job
was
demographic more attractive.
I am
I think most people know a white
heterosexual male.
And
this was
coaching job where the the players
were almost entirely hispanic.
And the other coach that was in the
running was his Hispanic as well,
and also female.
And
I had
way more experience than the other person did.
But,
again,
they had some
intangible
or intangible.
I guess I have the intangible. They have
the tangible. Whatever.
And this is an environment.
This is an environment where I think that
principle
had they gone with me? That principal would
have gotten a ton of heat.
Why did you pass over
this person that
looks like our students and fits the demographic
of the school
in favor of this white guy.
And I know that's a controversial thing to
say, but it happens. It happens a lot
around here.
And I guess,
I'm... I'm... I don't know if you could
tell. I'm, like, trying to choose my words
wisely, and I'm hesitating.
So I am a little uncomfortable talking about
this. But I think it's reality, and you
can make the argument. Oh Matt, you know,
you just didn't interview as well. And this
person deserved it more. Okay. Fine. That's all
entirely possible. But for me to process the
resentment because I know I'm a better coach
than that person is, and I know I've
got a ton more experience than that person
does
for me, from my perspective, this isn't for,
you know, for me to engage with the
principal who made the decision. This is just
for me to let it go.
It helps me to say that person was
in a bind.
That principal made that decision
because
the other
option was a safer hire. Given the environment
that we're in,
given the place we live and the
political sentiment here and just all the pieces
of the puzzle. That was a safer hire.
Mh.
Regardless of this is not 1 where what's
the win loss record in 5 years,
that's gonna determine
the way the hire is viewed.
This is a case where,
you know, the
the choice of coach
was based on other factors other than when
it wins and losses. Does that make sense?
Yeah. So that allows me to cut that
principal some Slack and say, okay? That principle
was in box box, and I wasn't the
solution to that box. Right. The other case...
Because, I mean, that happens in it and
it doesn't even have to be
gender or race,
I think that happens in a lot of
scenarios and situations. I mean, where maybe,
you know, the broader picture isn't maybe just
the skill set, but it's other things that
those people can bring into your business community
Yeah work environment.
And the and adding to it. And so
for that example too, I also just think
of fluency
in the language.
Yeah. You know,
language barriers that were encountered. It wasn't...
It wasn't unreasonable,
you know, for you to
I had you had a that was fluent
in space. Yeah. So you had solutions you
came up with it, But then
not the same as being fluent as the
head. You're right? You know, but also, my
said that happens in a lot of other
things like, what can this other person bring
in that we may not see,
you know,
for ourselves, like we're looking like, but we're
so much more that we have so much
more experience Or we have such a better
track record, Yeah. You know.
But you're right. It just wasn't fitting the
need at that moment. Build The other case
is,
and I'll explain the background on this 1
faster because there's no racial component. I'm not
uncomfortable. The other case was 1,
where I was passed over twice by this
particular athletic director that I know well and
have worked for as an assistant coach.
And and I have a very good win
loss record
as a lower level coach at the school.
But
the...
Both times, the person that got the job,
their resume
was objectively shiny near than mine. Mh. They
had more experience
than I did. And I think again, this
athletic director made the safe decision safe for
covering their own hide.
You know, if you looked at those 2
resumes,
and let's say you make the hire and
things go poorly, you can say, this was
the best candidate that was available at the
time. So even if they went bad, and
I have the fire. I and I gotta
replace them, I picked the best candidate
at the time regardless of you know, things
like loyalty and track record and and
relationship. So,
like I said, I'm not gonna over explain
this 1.
Again, it was safety for that person. So
in both of my cases,
the principal and the athletic director made the
safest choice.
To cover their own tails, and I happen
to know that both at principle and that
athletic director work long hours and have stressful
jobs and are under a ton of pressure
from not only managing students, but from parents
and from other community members and from their
bosses.
And so
I can think about the fact that made
the safe choice and go, okay.
Yeah. I see that. I'm I'm not a
choose of safety myself. I will almost always.
Our risk day. I will almost always choose
the radical choice. Yes. And roll the dice
and see what happens. Yes. And hope for
the best. Yeah. But I don't think I'm
the norm, and I think these people made
safe choices as most people would. Yeah. And
that does bit ton for me.
To re to let go of the resentment,
Thinking about what their fear was. Their fear
drove the decision and passed me up.
And I mean, it's a lot of relief
to think that there's... So let's talk about
your situation.
Okay. So the meeting facility talk or do
you want me to stop? You just gonna
present it in his so the meeting facilitator
that shu you. Now, what's the meeting facilitator
that that's just. Okay. Well, maybe I shouldn't
talk.
It was not meeting
prefer a break for me talking. It was
not the meeting facilitator. Right.
They were a person who is
on the board but had had
been,
you know, the chair
of the board for a while.
And then they rolled off, but they stayed
on the board,
and
I was shu by that person who had
rolled off the board.
The chair
of the board was going to explain to
me
the scenario. Mh. Of why this probably wasn't
a good idea.
And I know why I got shift.
It wasn't because I've was going off tangent
and talking about something
that wasn't relatable.
It was because we were gonna to discuss
finances
in front of staff members
and parent volunteers
to fill a role
that
we had talked about for the last 2
years
on the board.
But now there's a
semi
solution
and much has been allocated for that position
in other
staff positions and
and faculty positions.
So there's that. So it was about finances,
and there's a little sub committee
that talks about that, but it's not shared
with the Board in general.
So I don't know if it was fear.
Maybe it was fear that they were gonna...
Someone was gonna give away some numbers and
say, oh, that budget
for that salary has now been real allocated
to do all these other things
to make the job pay raise more attractive
to
incoming
positions. Well, I think it's definitely fair. So
it's this part that I already been figured
out,
Mh. Sherry, if you ask your question or
make your point, we're gonna have to go
into the weeds and we don't wanna go
into the weeds because then
people will know too much or they might
start asking about this. And so
it's absolutely fear of
transparency. Yeah.
That's good. Because I was late... Because that's
I immediately knew was like, oh, so they
don't want us to know everything.
They don't want this piece of the board
to know everything.
And
so I never really linked it to fear.
I know on the last podcast, I said
I would start putting things to the filter
a fear going back to something I hadn't
really thought of. So I know you're a
better than I am, but does it do
anything for you
to to think about that person's
position who shu you
and
recognize that they were afraid of that level
of transparency because it was gonna add work
for them. They'd have to do some more
explaining. There'd probably be more questions. Too many
people would know too much stuff.
Does they? Does that relieve any of your
resentment for being shu?
No. Because I ironically the person that was
gonna tell me the situation is also the
person who is a
consultant finance in the accountant for the company
too, Like, this this piece of the the
company. So
they had no fear in explaining.
But I think that the other person who
has done
negotiations and had been on many boards,
educational boards, whatever,
I think
that they just felt like it...
I mean, from their point of view.
I think I can understand that that it
would just be too much to
to
explain
and on fold in front of the rest
of the board, which some people were newer.
So you can understand my care. You can
understand why you were should. I can totally
understand that. But it does still pissed. It
doesn't really hear at all. Still makes me
a little pissed. A little... But no, It
makes me just a little pissed. K. That's
all.
You just think that every time I talk
I'm animated and that it just that I'm
all worked up. I sat right next in
the person, person and I worked on 4
other projects
I said you love them. So
it just I'm like,
this thing that makes me that that drives
my frustration by it is the 2 different
little aspects of it. You know, the lab
of transparency.
That's what... And it's not a... I don't
think it's a
fear
of transparency.
I think it's a... And it's not a
fear, like, you know, fo? Like, I don't
know what's going on in that of the
board. I just think, well, why am I
here if I'm only getting personal information and
we're of making the best
decisions for the
the project. Okay. Maybe we're getting to the
root here. I hope we're not we're probably
just confusing people so much. But you don't
wanna be on this board to begin with.
Don't even though I get paid. You've kind
of been forced into this
because of your position is a director of
children's medicine. Yeah. So you don't Even serve...
Else said On will... On the day after
the meeting, like, 20 minutes after the meeting.
Toy have to be on the this So
you're not frustrated about being Shu. You have
resentment because you're there to begin with. Well,
I have to them if I have be
there. If I have to be there I
wanna be productive and I want to make
the best possible decisions, and I can't make
a good decision when it's presented to me
when I only know pieces of the information.
So the solution
isn't for you to recognize
the other person's
fear of transparency.
The solution is for you to be let
off the board. Yeah. But it's not gonna
have.
K. So that's why I just decided that
I'm just
going to be
looking at it, like, I am a volunteer.
I mean, I'm not gonna let things go
crazy. Okay. Well, that wasn't a very good
example. It's not your fault. Sorry. That's wasn't
a very example of how to to
present processing without the other person.
And I think Well, I just wanna say,
like, what I do in that situation
is I just remember,
this person wasn't doing it.
To be un kind to me.
They were trying to kind of protect
some of the information that they feel like
other people
don't really have to know. Well, you made
that point? And so I can I can
appreciate that piece, but then
this is the big piece? I have to
remember all that this person
does for our community
outside of the church and what she does
for me and how... And, like, she has
hired our kids to do work for her,
you know, like, we have helped her... Yeah.
You love her. So I'm just saying, like...
So when I have
that moment of, like, oh, here I go.
Wonder if When gonna I get sure at
this meeting. You know, I say, no. I...
I mean, and if I am, I am
a big kid,
I can handle it,
and I just gotta remember that this person
has a lot of other things that are
so admirable,
you know,
Absolutely.
Okay. Let's let's turn this back to alcoholism.
Let's talk about
you know, 1 of your biggest resentment
occurred on your fort birthday. Mh. And we've
told the story many times, so I'm gonna
give the abbreviated verse,
but it was your fort birthday. I planned
a weekend away in the mountains for just
you and me. I arranged for babysitter,
and then I have planned I planned,
you know, like, stuff for us to do
activities on our weekend away, and we were...
And so we
when went out of town, and the, you
know, the problem started when we were in
traffic on the highway
because I was complaining about the traffic and
slam the steering wheel and and being just
generally
unpleasant to be around.
And, of course, the reason was I wanted
to get to the condo we were staying
in and start drinking.
And
you know, another thing that really bothered you
about the weekend is that I had every
minute planned.
And so there wasn't a lot of leisure
downtime, which is something that you really wanted
for that birthday weekend. Some relaxing.
And everything
that I had planned was oriented around either
alcohol or sex. Yes.
Is all that fair? Yes. Okay. So we
have talked about it many times, this is
1 as you were describing earlier that you
had to come back around to a few
times. You had to figure out what... What's
the real core pain?
What's the real thing? Because it it kept
coming up? Mh. And
luckily, I had done enough recovery work that
I was
accepting of the fact that it kept coming
up. I didn't say things like, we already
talked about that, Sherry. We're not gonna talk
about it anymore. I said, oh, this is
interesting
that you keep bringing this up. This 1
obviously hurt more than others did. Mh.
Which, you know, again, objectively, it wasn't the
worst thing I did. Did lots of worse
things than that. Yeah. We are the... But
it wasn't as it wasn't as volatile
you know, it could have been. Mh. Yeah.
But so
allowing you to keep coming back to it
was
helpful for your processing, and it was interesting
to me because why is this the 1
that's sticking it across so much?
But all that happened. Let's say I for
whatever reason wasn't available for you to process
with either because I said, you know, screw
you
I don't wanna talk about the past anymore.
I'm sober now. Let's think about the future
or because we had parted ways.
What would the resentment processing have looked like?
And I'm wondering,
would you have thought about what was I
afraid of on your fort birthday that caused
me to behave the way I did?
Do you have any ideas?
What I have thought about what you were
afraid of?
Well, yeah. So what what do you think
I was afraid of?
I guess, I'm not asking would you have
done this. I'm asking you to do it
now. Yeah. What do you think I was
afraid of?
And not being entertaining enough.
Not being exciting enough. You think Again Not
being in it? Yeah. That I would be
bored. And I'd be like, this is all
you offer for my fort birthday. Oh, okay.
You know? Like, that's all you got.
I mean, I guess maybe fear of, like,
not being impressed. By you and your plans.
You know what's really interesting. I thought about
this all day, and I made a list
of things that I afraid of, and that
wasn't on the list, but now that you've
said it, you're right. That definitely would have
been a big part of it. Because my...
Your 20 second birthday didn't do enough and
you had to show me up. Well,
because you wanted to drink... I I'm not
a good gift purchaser and I'm not a
good gift rapper
And, you know, this goes beyond
me being cheap, which we've talked about
at nausea on this podcast, but beyond me
being cheap. I'm just... That's not my thing.
Mh. And so
planning this weekend, you're absolutely right.
Was important to me to
show you how much I loved you.
Through through action, like
like, this was my gift to you was
all this stuff of the weekend. You're absolutely
right.
Well, what did you come up with?
Let's see.
I was also afraid of reality.
Like, this was a little fantasy we were
on. This is fantasy island for us. Right?
We had... Yeah. We had We left Friday
afternoon, and we were coming back till Sunday
night and
no kids and no work.
And Yeah. We had 4 kids standing and
under. Go through was fantasy.
Right.
So the fear of reality, the fear of
returning to the routine
I know it was your birthday weekend, but
it was my escape.
And I definitely in see part of the
problem is, I didn't ask you what you
wanted. I mean, that's a huge part of.
Ding.
But in my head, it was, okay. Let's
maximize the party.
Let's maximize
the drinking, let's maximize the sex.
And let... And, you know, more than that,
let's maximize the party atmosphere and the file.
Let's go to when we go out to
eat, let's make it fun places. There were
places with live music for instance, let's go
to those places
and
and just make it a true escape. So
I think you're right out. In addition to
being afraid of letting you down.
I was also afraid of the reality that
I was returning to. I didn't hate my
job. I loved our kids, I liked their
house,
but,
you know, when you're go go go, go
go all the time,
that escape is really special and really
important, I guess.
And so
I was afraid of, we've only got 48
hours,
and if we don't use every minute of
it effectively,
then I will be
regret.
That was a part of it as well.
So
the... You know, kind of the question is
if I wasn't here to talk through this
with,
could
the thoughts about what I was afraid of,
could those have helped
to alleviate
your
resentment about
the way your 40 birthday weekend went. Yeah.
I probably also would have carried along with
me
that he just didn't know me. He just
know what I wanted.
Not that you were so
selfish and
unable to ask me, you just
And and and maybe because I would have,
like, continued to learn about alcohol and understand
how selfish it was. I maybe would have
put it through the filter of. He was
just too self serving to even ask what
I wanted because he thought he knew me.
He thought I knew what I wanted.
I don't...
I think I would have
been a little bit more
like disappointed about that piece?
Mh.
Like, you not knowing me
But if we would have parted company,
then there would have been a million other
instances where I could,
you know, have said he didn't know me
then. He didn't know me he didn't know
me then.
So it would have kind of
made sense,
and that would have been a way that
I could
like, process it, like, even though it sounds
negative to say he doesn't even know me
or didn't ask,
but I can say, alcohol made him so
self serving.
That he couldn't think beyond what his needs
work.
To know what my these were.
And that's 1 of the reasons were not
together anymore.
I think that would be kind of like,
a way I could accept
that.
And process it.
You know, besides the fact that, like, I
would have been, like, yeah. And
he probably was afraid that I wouldn't be
impressed because I have been kind of,
you know, cruel 1 time when you wrapped
a gift,
you know, and it was really hap and,
you know,
so
I could also have
processed reason and by also looking a little
bit more inward and say, there were times
that I was very,
you know, g and
and mean about the gift and the quality
of the gift because we've talked about, like,
the Franklin planner and, you know, because you
just wanted me to be like, you and
organized or to clean everything.
You know, You thought it would be nice
to housekeeping, and it just made me feel
like, I didn't have the skill set to
clean the house. You know?
So
I'm sure I could have
processed it and put it through that filter
too. Like, I'm
kinda was
part of the reason he maybe
would have felt bad.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So I mean, I think though, because we
processed it
and thankfully been able to do it together,
I mean, part of it is that you
didn't even ask me what I wanted and
what I needed.
So I think that would have stayed true.
I just would have had to deal with
it,
you know, from the aspect of late, that
was because of... Yeah. Man that would have
been because of our alcohol. That's my part
of it. Whether we did it together or
not,
you know, this is really kind of the
first time we're addressing the why.
Because
when we talked... When we have talked about
this many times in the past this particular
event, for why has always been, oh, I
was a selfish alcoholic. Yeah. And that's true,
but it's also not maybe...
Like, there's a y behind that too. Yeah.
No. It's not the
it's not the
the not baseline. It's not the
not the full why. There's more to it.
Yeah. The fear of compressing you
that need to maximize
the the limited amount of time together because
of my fear of going back. So maybe
a set of a recent
maybe... I'm sorry. It... But I don't wanna
lose my thought. Maybe instead of,
sometimes
some of those resentment
things that you...
If you can't do them with your partner,
it has to be
kinda you have to reconcile it within yourself.
And I think a big part of that
is what we're talking about, really
trying to understand
what it is
about this person in this situation that made
that behavior,
you know, go that way. Because then I
think you have more empathy to when you
can, like, look at it from this. What
is this,
you know, fear concern, worry. Yeah. That made
him do that?
And then
I mean I think the m empathy is
really
kind of the only way
to release the resentment itself. Yeah.
I mean, going back to my examples,
because yours is too muddled to actually use
of the.
Okay. But my examples of
you know, resentment for being passed over,
if I can get to the point of
empathy for the person, like,
they made the they made the safe choice,
and they had a lot going on in
their life and in their career
and asking them make the heart choices asking
too much. So,
I have empathy for the fact that they
made the safe choice.
That totally does help me
to
take them off the hook to take them
off my call list for when we would
say title.
They won't hear anything from me.
They'll just have to go a rumor mill.
Let's look at your records. I mean, I
am not so
good at taking the high road
as to say that I don't hope that
they know.
And I don't hope that they think,
I wonder what could happen
because I do. I do hope, but I'm
not gonna be the 1 to point it
out to them. Yeah.
Because I have empathy for them. Mh. And
having empathy for an alcoholic partner to bring
it back to this side of the conversation
when this alcoholic partners the 1 that is
caused all this pain for you.
That's a big ask.
That's a really hard thing to do. Kind
of empathy for your,
you know, your perpetrator, basically.
But
I think
thinking of what they were afraid of,
thinking why they acted the way they did
and trying to find empathy for them.
I don't think that's a gift you're giving
to that person. I think that's a gift
you're giving to yourself.
Because it's helping you to let go of
the resentment when you don't have them to
converse about with
converse about the resentment with,
So...
Yeah.
It's empathy powerful, and it's
it's not just powerful to for to the
person on the receiving end, it's powerful to
the give of empathy as well.
So very true. Tough process. Present processing, whether
it's with someone or without them. There's a
lot to it. And,
you know, that's
know, 1 of the things that we try
to be here for people to help them
with, whether it's just from listening to a
podcast and saying,
okay. I guess got 2 little tidbits from
that podcast, things that can help me when
I think about the resentment, I have to
deal with with my partner who's not
available to process with me,
or whether it's,
you know,
expressing interest in and getting involved in our
tribes and our
our our different programs.
You know, we want to be a part
of working through this with folks and helping
them find the empathy and helping them recognize
the fear and others
and helping them release it. So it doesn't
dog him anymore.
In our records of recovery group this week,
somebody made the comment
that
they're really doing well. Their
own personal recovery is going well.
This person's
partner who previously was a drinker Their... That
person's sobriety is going well. That person's recovery
is going well. And the relationship recovery is
going well. This is a success stories. That
this is a couple that we're really we're
really proud of, and we're excited to see
what happens next for them. And this a
person who was a member of our echoes
of recovery group said,
I still do the writing in this group
because it helps me get that residual junk
out.
Because 1 things start to go well,
it's really easy to just focus on the
good. Look, we made it. Sunshine now we're
good, but there's still stuff down there, and
I love that she used the word gunk.
Yeah. There's still the I gotta get out.
Yeah. And I feel like that's also true
for you and I with our weekly meetings
that we continue to have
even though
there's no question but that we are both
individually stronger and also, our relationship is stronger.
But if we just
kinda lean and rely on the fact that
things are better than they used to be
than that residual gunk
continues to
stay stuck and kinda clog things up.
So the doing the work to get it
out is important even when you've got most
of it out. Mh. Keep on going, don't
you think? I think so. And I gotta
tell you sitting here across this microphone from
you, and
talking it through in this forum and then
blasting it out to the world. That sure
helps get the gunk out too.
So thanks for being my d.
Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
3 resources.
If you love, or loved an alcoholic. We
offer support and connection in our echoes of
recovery group. Check us out at echoes of
recovery dot org. If you are a high
functioning alcoholic, seeking methods and connection in early
sobriety.
We're ready for you at shout sobriety dot
org. No matter who you are. There's something
for you in our book. Sober revolution, evolve
into sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage.
Go to sober revolution dot org. For my
wife, Sherry Sal, I'm Matt Sal. Thanks for
listening to the intoxicated podcast.