Welcome to the intoxicated
podcast.
Well, I'm Sherry S, and that was my
husband Matt. We have questions about the impact
of alcohol and addiction on relationships. If you
have those kinds of questions to you're in
the right place, Here we go.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
You remember that line?
From a movie? Oh,
kind of I it's definitely familiar. So like
Liam Ne or something?
No.
I don't remember. Listeners help us out. Someone
tell me what Movie that was. Sakes. Just
send an email on it. There's just... Yeah.
That's We're gonna talk a lot about fear
today, Sherry.
Turns out I'm a petrified person pretty much
all the time.
I didn't realize that till I started thinking
about it,
but I'm scary afraid. And you're overthinking about
things? Which makes me think that what people
are really gonna wanna do is get to
know us,
you know, old scared cat over here and
miss confidence
and in an effort to help people to
get to know us. We are hosting another
q and A session information and q and
A session about our programs
on August first, this time in the evening,
the first time we did it back in
June It was a morning video call. This
time, we're gonna do it in the evening.
06:30PM
in the Mountain Time zone.
We will talk about shop sobriety. We will
talk about echoes of recovery. We will have
someone from each of those 2 programs on
the video call with us.
Bonus, we're also gonna have a couple on
the call that does the marriage evolution with
us our third program.
And so the purpose of the call will
give a little bit nation. We'll have these
these participants in the programs on to tell
a little bit about why
they decided
to spend some time with us and connect
with us. And we'll take questions from our,
video call audience.
The reason that we're doing this is because
there seems to be a little bit of
a barrier between listening to the podcast or
reading our book or our blog
and reaching out and connecting and pursuing possibly,
joining our tribes. And we just love people,
and we love getting to know people and
interacting with people and learning their stories,
and
we want to do whatever we can.
To eliminate that barrier. And so just a
free, no risk,
hour spent, question, answer style,
seems to be a good way to lower
that barrier of fear that people have. So
if you're considering joining on August first at
06:30PM
in the Mountain time zone,
just send an email to matt at sober
and una shane dot com,
and I will send you a link, a
zoom link for that video call. You can
use an alias. You don't have to turn
your camera on. You don't have to turn
your video on and we will never repurpose
that email.
We won't follow up later and be like,
hey, what'd you think?
What do you say? You gonna join us?
Like, nothing cheesy and slimy like that. Just
a 1 time email to get that link,
and you can participate at whatever level you'd
like, you can jump in and ask questions
or you can sit listen to the questions
of others.
But it it really is it is all
about
bridging that gap between...
I'm an avid podcast listener, and
I actually wanna connect with these people
and trying to eliminate some of that natural
fear that takes place.
What do you think, Sherry? I think it's
a great idea.
And I had fun in June doing it,
and
I look forward to doing it in August.
Okay. Great. August first. August first. Yeah. 06:30PM
out which would be 08:30 eastern, 07:30 central
and 05:30
on the West Coast.
Great. So
that little promotion is about eliminating fear. I
wanna talk about when of my many personal
fears
as we promote once again, our alcoholic intimacy
survey. If you are the loved 1 of
an alcoholic,
and
you would be willing to take our survey
about intimacy in your relationship. Please go to
alcoholic intimacy survey dot org
We've had the survey open for several months
now. The end is near
because pretty soon,
it'll be time to analyze the data, and
we'd really love to get a few more
survey
responses.
Okay. Here's here's where my fear comes in.
Here's what I would normally say.
I would say things like gosh. We're really
close to a really big milestone as far
as number of responses is concerned. I would
say that or I would say things like
We have received 3 times the number of
responses we initially expected.
Those are both true. We are really near
big milestone, and it is 3 times what
we thought we would get.
But the normal me mister insecurity over here
would never reveal what that milestone is. Do
you know why Sherry? I would keep that
milestone close to the vest?
Oh, wow.
First thought that came in head is that
you don't know what your milestone,
your personal milestones. Do you think I'm just
flat outline? No. I just think... Because at
first, when and I spoke about it. You
were underestimating.
I thought you were underestimating how many responses
we would get. So
maybe as we got more, you kinda upped
the ante a little bit, but you would
be afraid that we wouldn't hit it and
you would look silly not hitting that milestone.
Yes, Ish. Yes, ish. It's
it's not a matter of not knowing what
the mail known is because
once the initial first wave of responses came
in, I I kinda changed my goal from
the initial goal
to what it is now. It's impostor syndrome.
I'm afraid that if I say out loud
what the milestone is, and it's 500. It's
500 response. We're really close to 500 responses
were 35
responses away from 500 responses.
Just to be even more specific. But I'm
afraid some listener out there there's gonna be,
like, 500.
They think that's a good number. They've only
gotten 500 responses so they're stupid rate. Clicked.
I'm never listened to these bo again.
Or
I don't know. I don't know. I don't
know. It's just all in security. It's like,
it's not real. It's not important unless it's
10000000. We all want we're almost a 10000000
sir face.
Why are you just laughing? Because I'm thinking
there's so many other parts of our podcast
that I'd be able like, click. I'm never
listening
again.
It wouldn't be about the number of 500
Sorry.
No. You're right. This lots of reasons not
to listen to us.
But, yeah, Total impostor syndrome insecurity,
I... You know, and I cannot. I have
so much impostor syndrome and security that I
cannot
say this next bird. This next part is
as part of going to grad school, I've
read a ton of research
and
looked at a bunch of surveys. 5 hundred's
actually a really good number. App For a
behavioral,
you know, kind of personal behavioral survey. Well,
and it's talking about intimacy. So even though
there's no,
you know, there's no tracking of your name
to your answers that is gonna come up.
It's just... It's so scary to put that
out there. People don't wanna talk about that
even an anonymous survey. That's right.
So
I think that's good. 5 hundreds is a
good number. Yeah. They're defending my security. But
we're not there yet. So we need a
few more pieces take the. 5 more. 35.
Let's just say 40 to make sure that
that we get it over 500 that we
can say, over. 5. Well if you do
understand how this works. When people take it,
they don't know what number they are, how
many other people took it. So what we
need is everybody who hasn't taken it. Please
take it, and then
you will be part of that. Oh, god.
I think how special you could feel. Being
1 of those last 35 to put us
over this huge milestone of 500
that you might be sitting and their thinking
isn't that big. It is. It's big.
It's huge. I'm excited. So if you're interested,
and if you were the loved of an
alcoholic, and you're interested in getting us over
that big hump,
go to alcoholic intimacy survey dot org.
Thank you very much in advance.
Okay. So let's talk about Instagram? Because why
not?
You and I use Instagram.
I I don't know how to you use
you use Instagram. I don't think you use
it much more than this. But we basically
use
Instagram to
watch funny videos
about half cat videos and half other non
cat things
at night before bed. And just kinda... It's
kind of in place of, like, you maybe
used to watch a sitcom,
you know, 10 years ago and further back
or 5 years ago and further back. Mh.
But just a little bit of light hearted
joy and,
you know,
just giggling at stupid stuff.
And I... That's really the only thing I
do on social media for the most part.
There's this... Do you use Instagram for anything
besides that? I have, like, some people that
I follow that little tips for exercises or
crowds for
like, you know, kids,
yeah Kids what? Like, kids you can steal
for kids. Craft crafts for kids. Got.
Yeah. Like, for Sunday school and and So
not for feeling trafficking.
No.
K. No. Just kinda of creepy and weird
that I even said that. Yeah. I was
like, did I not say words in that
last sentence that I spaced out? You kinda
said I use it for kids and then
you kinda... Yeah. You did catch.
For for crash for... Yeah. I trying to
think... You know, and on other games and
sort of things that would be useful in
my job. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
But there a period of time. But must
work half of the days a week when
you and I lay in bed and we
giggle at Instagram videos before we shut her
down for the night. Yeah. Yeah. So,
that's... There's probably,
you know,
psychologist listening that's that can
verify that that's a bad way to turn
your brain off. There's prob... It's probably not
right that we do that. But we do.
And there is this Roger Federer
graduation speech. He was the commencement address at
Dartmouth this last May
that is going around the Internet certainly going
around Instagram. I've seen it
probably a half a dozen times at least
now,
different cuts of his video.
But
he...
It's really cool. And that's not what this
podcast is about, so I'm not gonna really
talk about it. But
it's motivation It's a motivational speech that he's
giving to college graduates.
And so, you know how... Well, none of
us really know how. But the algorithm works
in such a way that Once I've watched
that Roger Federer
Roger Federer video,
6 or 7 times. Now for a while,
all Instagram was giving us was motivational speaker
stuff, like, self help stuff. Yeah. That's not
why I'm watching this literally I want the
cat videos and the... And I want the
guy, like, stepping on the end of the
rake and the other end of the rake
smack them in the face. Right?
I want that kind of stuff. Yeah. I
want somebody run into the porta potty grabbing
their butt trying not to put in offs.
Look, I don't care. Yeah. And you gotta
to stop, like, that's why I don't, like,
you know, I know there's certain algorithm in
for time when you like it and how
long you watch it. So that's why when
and we're watching together. I'm, like, just that
motivational be go swipe quick. I don't ever
Don't wanna get stopped. Okay. That's right. It's
time stuck on it. Yeah. For sure. I
don't ever like stuff. I'm 1 of those
social media people. I don't ever like. I
don't ever comment. I don't ever show any
interest whatsoever.
But yeah. The algorithm does track how my
time I spend on that video. Mh. You're
right. So anyway. So we're getting all this
motivational speaker steps stuff. And 1 of them
said
that they're it... And I like to give
attribution, but I don't know who it was,
and I scrolled past it pretty fast.
But he said there's only, like, 4 or
5 emotions, and then he said words that
all rhyme. Sad glad mad,
and then something else that I can't remember.
But it got me thinking.
You you know, you've got this guy saying
there's only 5 emotions.
Lots of people say anger
isn't really a thing. It's a cover for
something else.
Then you've got out there on the big
Bad Internet and publishing lots of best selling
books. You've got B Brown,
who is without question and expert on emotions,
perhaps the leading expert, like, of our time.
I don't know. What do you think about
that?
Yeah like statement.
Yeah... Yeah.
I think atlas of the heart kinda talks
about emotions a lot more than some of
our other books, but
Yeah. So you've got that. Then you've got
our podcast
episode 02:48.
Episode 02:48 with Lori Panel,
who is an expert on emotional intelligence,
and she gave us listen of words listen
of emotion
and talks about the power of just naming
that emotion, like, there's science behind the power
of naming emotions.
So you've got lots of people saying that
they're a variety of different emotions
that exist and that we need to have
some emotional intelligence about.
In my overs simplified little,
you know, brain that doesn't...
That for for whom that is too complex,
I believe there's only 1 emotion.
And that emotion, Sherry? Drum roll?
Is fear.
What do you think? Well I gotta explain
it more before I can ask what you
think? I think fear is the only emotion.
You know, in the work that I did
to determine my the underlying cause
of my addiction.
That's kind of,
fear was very, very prevalent.
I grew up at, you know, as a
in my head, adolescent days in a physically
safe
environment
in emotionally kinda wave home environment.
There was always love and support,
and enough food clothes, things like that. But
there's always teasing.
There were high
expectations, and there was
irrational.
I think I grew up in a pretty
typical
middle class home. You know, nobody beat me.
Nobody nobody physically abused me or sexually abused
me. But there was a little bit of
little bit of stress there from time to
time.
You know, I'm sure that my parents could
argue that it was based on my shitty
behavior was when there was stress there, and
that's is entirely possible.
But
there was know, so that's kind of the
scenario.
Then moving forward in high school and college,
the path was always super clear for me.
Go to class,
get decent grades,
graduate.
And I was pretty fearless about that. I
I never really struggled in school. I always
understood
why I was there. There were certainly there
were classes I didn't like and classes I
liked more, but it was it was pretty
straightforward.
Not a lot to be afraid of, then
my career started,
and
I started to experience,
you know, specific accomplishments, like you get a
raise.
You get a promotion or you get transferred?
And so
my life started to... I started be able
to view my life in kinda like tears.
Right?
So you wanna reach the next level. You
wanna get the next promotion. And I would
feel temporary satisfaction from that.
But pretty quickly, I would set my mind
on what the next goal was.
And this is when I think fear really
started to creep in for me.
I would start to feel like I was
not enough or I wasn't gonna get to
that next level,
or
fear of, you know, in comparison to coworkers
that I hadn't
gone up the ladder fast enough.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
I mean, it makes sense for me, not
necessarily you. Right? Yeah. And then, you know,
we owned our own business.
Talk about fear. There's no financial stability in
owning your own business.
You know, you can work really hard and
there isn't a paycheck twice a month automatically
coming.
And then I started to fear not only
advancement in promotions and getting to the next
level, but I started to fear that we
were gonna lose the things that we had
already worked so hard for and accumulated.
So... And it
coincides that really, my addiction really ramped up
when we owned our own business,
I was using
alcohol medicinal
to treat my fear.
Mh. All of this. You still with me
and all this? Yeah I'm I'm listening and
processing and comparing it to my outsider viewpoint.
From,
you know, like, what I saw. And hopefully,
your viewpoint from what you experienced. Yeah.
Let's pause then. And viewpoint of being an
outsider or, like, outside of your brain. Yeah.
But I don't feel like you lived in
fear like this.
When we... Like, let's say, when we moved
to to Chicago, for instance, that was a
tran... Promotion, a transfer. Mh. And we got
there, and
you
found a job and
I had my job, and I feel like
you were a lot more content than you
weren't... You know, there wasn't a period a
temporary period of satisfaction than you were immediately
trying to figure out next. Yeah. Is that
fair? I mean,
I kind of ironically,
that was a place where I did switch
jobs
more frequently. Mh.
But I didn't have fear
of finding another job or worry or concern
of of moving up a matter and, you
know, and
like, making sure that, you know,
that I found a job right away after
1 job ended, like.
That wasn't a necessarily a fearful. I mean,
I never sensed fear you. I've never sensed
fear from you about anything career wise.
The only place I've ever sent fear from
you is kid related. Mh. You know, and
that's just the nurturing instinct that you have,
I think. Yeah. But I think that that
also comes from,
maybe it's 1 of those situations where I
knew you were worrying enough for both of
us and had fear there. Yeah. But I
also knew
enough about you that
if I didn't get a job that helps
the income at. In Chicago for a little
bit, we would make it. You know? Yeah.
Like, I never I never had fear that
you wouldn't work and do and a second
job if you needed to if things were
were bad. Even like,
you know, when we closed bakery and and
things like that. So I guess I never
had that fear because I
felt like I knew who you were that
you would always
that we would work it out. We'd always
make it work. That feels nice to hear
you say that. Thanks. You... At least that's
an area where you trusted me. Yeah. That's
pretty great.
Okay. Let me keep going with my mounting
fear. So I was recently cleaning pictures out
of my you know, years of
silly pictures that I've got on my phone.
And
I came across 1 from a few years
ago.
I had taken a screen shot of an
email
from our
like, our
podcast host that said we had reached 10000
downloads on the intoxicated podcast.
And that was momentous enough that I took
a screenshot, and it brought me a great
deal of pride and satisfaction to reach 10000
downloads.
Well,
I'm realizing as I'm saying this out loud
this sounds like a horrible humble brag
or maybe not humble I'll spread. But we...
Now that's a... You know, we do that,
in a month, we do 10000 downloads.
So what 1 me a great deal of
satisfaction and pride and excitement over
this podcasting that we're doing at now,
that's, you know, kind of irrelevant or not
irrelevant, but insignificant. Mh. And also, by the
way, talk about where working in my fear.
I just revealed
another number, and I hate revealing numbers out
loud. Yeah. And and me, I would be,
like, is that good or but. I said
day or is that a month? Alright. Got.
Had it was... It's such an arbitrary number
that... I know, I had a former coworker
that I had his own podcast and would
ask me like, how many we get And
I'm like, I I don't know. He's like,
what you don't look and I'm like, no.
I don't look... I don't care. We put
it out there because it's good for us.
And if it reaches and helps people then
great, but I'm not looking for the. Do
they call it blessed and release something like
that? I I don't know. That's what an
artist needs to know to do, like,
just do your best and throw in the
wind and hope. Yeah. I'm so jealous of
you for that. I cannot tell you how
jealous I am.
Yeah.
But so, you know, a number that once
brought Joy
is now nothing more than, like, a Mains.
Like, great. Yeah. But but it's worse than
that. It's not just the norm. It's also
something I'm afraid of losing. Yeah.
You know, I'm afraid... I'm not excited to
have reached that or even excited to have
reset on a monthly basis. I'm mean, I'm
scared billable backside.
So
that's what's great about my brain. I have
the ability to be afraid of anything. Maybe
I should be getting the emails with those
sorts things.
I won't tell you and you won't know,
and sometimes
his place.
Yeah. I don't know. I think I I
think that would drive me crazy.
Crazier.
I think fear while I'm on to this
whole fear thing, Share. I think fear is
a continuum.
I think it's our only emotion. I think
when fear is high,
the other words that we use
the other emotions that are popular
considered, like anger,
you know, fix fiction,
intolerance,
losing sleep being grumpy, rum.
I think all of these things happen
natural early when our fear is high. When
our fear is low, I think we feel
joyful
or content,
of we sleep through the night.
We can be a joy to be around
as humans.
And
alcohol really served the purpose of quench fear
for me.
Alcohol made the fear disappear. When we talk
about using alcohol to deal with emotions
that what really
kinda lights up my brain and says, yeah,
You're on to something
is if I think about
fear making in security go away or worries
about the future or regrets from the past.
That's all fear. Mh.
So
that was the medicinal purpose of alcohol for
me. You have less fear.
You have less financial here. We already talked
about that. You just kinda... And I I
am so thankful to you, but you just
kinda
trust me that that'll be okay. You contribute
you're a big part of it. And sometimes
when I'm stressing about something, I'll sit down
and we'll talk about numbers together and you're
very smart. You're very analytical. You're very capable,
but you don't sit there every day and
worry
about financial things.
You get a great deal of joy for
me a parent,
you work
in a joyful environment with kids.
And, like, here's a great example.
I don't think you're fixated in your work
with children both as the children's minister in
our church, and you also
work in the preschool that's housed in our
church.
Teaching. I don't think you sit there and
worry? Like, are we gonna get another kid
enrolled? Is someone else gonna join? Like, is...
Am I doing a good enough job a
teacher so that
word is gonna make our our classroom grow
or, you know, the 1 that's more directly
related your direct responsibility.
Are we gonna get more families to join
the church because they've heard how awesome this
children's program is? I don't think you sit
around and worry about that all the time.
Do you? I don't worry about it in
that
regard. I worry about it in a in
a bigger scope,
like, oh, I hope we get more families
to join because it is such a great
environment. And for me, I do feel like
church is a good part of life.
Like,
the the ritual of going to the service.
Yeah. So that I do, but it's it's...
I don't rum or fix aid on it.
How often do you think about that?
Oh, when we have 1 or 2 kids
short to that school. I'm in its summertime
or ski season. So
January, February
and
July and August, I think about it more.
Because those are are less And and obviously
until I've tracked it a little bit. Those
are when we have less children
in attendance
because of
season, ski schools,
and then summer vacations. But you don't just
sit around constantly thinking about. No. Just us.
That sounds great.
So, yeah, just when I think of the
things that bring me
fear,
I just think you have a lot less.
What about? So we've talked many times
in you in your growing up in your
at, lessons,
your
your father... Your mother and father got divorced,
and you didn't see your father as much
as your mother. And then eventually, your mom
rem aid, and that relationship sadly didn't work
out either.
Does any of that leave you with a
fear of abandonment?
No.
I don't think
so.
God.
Because I think because my main parent, I
feel like was pretty secure. And then I
had
both
grandparents for both sides that were pretty
involved.
And then I had my mom's sister for,
like, the first 6 or 7 years of
my life lived in the town.
That we lived in, so... And she wasn't
married yet. So
that was, I think, a good bond.
Got emotionally secure much over there, sherry.
I have to like a rock. Butt shit.
No,
barely.
Yeah. That's
That's all... That's good for you. That's great.
Doesn't. I I'm not hearing much that would
make me want a self medicate or feel
the need to self medicate maybe that's why
addiction has never been a problem for you.
I... You know, I will say I've never
had really
relationship fear.
Mh.
I mean, my parents are still together.
There was never any...
What's the word?
Us us... No. Os sized.
In my family.
Well, see. We have a in my myself.
But he doesn't bother doesn't defend you. Because
he was a dick. That's why.
You're like crazy secure. You're like, sales those
are gone. Do that. He was a bad
guy. But I think 1 of the reasons
that when you detach for me in my
active alcoholism that was so effective because that
was the first time in life when I
did have any kind of fear of
abandonment
or fear that a relationship wasn't gonna work.
And so when you pulled away and I
started the sense that you might be
packing your bag soon or kicking my ass
out,
that really really was effective because it was
the first time in my life I'd had
any kind of fear of abandonment like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I will say there were, like,
after you were after that first year, year
and a half of sobriety this time. And
we were trying to figure out whether or
not the relationship was repair, if we really
liked 1 another if we had
compatibility
and
ironically, we just watched something on compatibility
the other night in which I thought was
bullshit.
Like, you can get along with anybody if
you try. Won't know. You can't really. Oh,
you can't. Oh, I can't. I can't.
My gut feels me that I can't till
me. Nope.
But there was a time that,
you know, there was a there was an
issue when we were dealing with the intimacy
piece of the relationship, and it we were...
Obvious it's obvious and looking back now. We
weren't ready
to go there. Mh.
And you were trying to push it just
a little bit too hard. And so my
defense is kicked in, and and we had
some pretty serious talks
about
what each of us wanted in the relationship
as far as the intimacy and sexual piece
goes,
And I mean, we had conversation like, well,
if it can't go in this direction at
some point,
you know, maybe we're just not gonna be
together. Mh. And that was a big fear.
And I wouldn't say the fear was my
motivator to push
through. We had to work through some other
stuff, and then we revisited
the
sexual
piece of the relationship.
But that was the only time I was
fairly fearful.
And I think it was because you were
changed
from the alcohol and the things you had
learned in recovering,
you were
kind of not so much in a bad
way, but standing up for what you wanted
out of the relationship long term, and I
was still so hurt and scared and un
trusting of you.
I didn't even know if I really liked
you anymore.
I'm I'm trying to find that. So then
I was, like, fearful that, like, maybe I
really didn't want to fix that piece of
the relationship because I didn't wanna put that
much effort into the the relationship
and then be, like, well it still doesn't
work because I still don't really like you.
So if it didn't
encourage you or push you to move into
areas of
intimacy with which you were not comfortable at
the time,
did push you and motivate you to work
on other areas of recovery? Yeah. Yes. That's
brilliant. Motivated other pieces. Like, because well for
1, I wasn't gonna you just bully me
into working on something I wasn't ready for.
But I think you really. Good. Nobody should
bully someone
intimacy especially. Yeah. Well, I think that we
realized that there was just more resentment
and trust and building fun part of the
relations? What to your credit at that time,
you acknowledge that
intimacy is an important part Yeah. Of a
romantic
partnership, and you might not be there yet,
but you did wreck you didn't just call
me a horn and... Brush it aside and
tell me, you know, it's my fault that
it is what is. You be recognized. Okay.
This guy's working on his stuff.
This is a legitimate
desire that he has and eventually, we're gonna
need to get there. And then you figured
out the way to get
the foundation built so that you could go
there. It's right. Impressive. Right. Well, I just
knew that I wasn't quite ready to...
I felt... I just felt in my gut
that there was another piece that needed to
be worked on before we went to that.
Let's talk about a very common area fear
for the loved ones at alcoholic.
The, you know, fear living in constant fear
because you don't know what your alcoholic spouse
it... What kind of mood they're gonna be
in.
What they're gonna say, how they're gonna show
up,
how intoxicated they're gonna be? Are they gonna
have been drinking? Or are they gonna lock
about how much they've been drinking or if
they've been drinking,
all of that creates nervous system activation.
Which we've talked about many times. But when
you're,
you know, you're afraid
of your own partner and what their status
is gonna be not physically afraid. I think
this is important because
a lot of people think oh, their own
you know, I've never hit her. I've never
even threatened to hit her What she have
to be afraid of. Well,
a lot.
If you're afraid of the
emotional safety or the lack thereof in your
relationship,
then, you know, that puts you in Fight
flight
fauna or freeze mode, nervous system activated.
And
that is, you know, being
perpetually
activated your nervous system, that will kill you.
That is not a safe place to be
long term,
you know,
fight flight is meant for, you know, a
dangerous life threatening,
acute
situation, a short term situation and staying in
that long term
is no way to live.
And so
this fear
driving us in a nervous system activation
can actually do
physical biological damage to the partner of an
alcoholic can literally kill you can cause, you
know, things like
heart attacks, and another stress related,
you know,
biological,
functioning
problems.
So I just think it's interesting to acknowledge
that the drinking of another person
can create a level of fear
in the loved 1 of that person
that it can actually do serious damage or
even kill you. Mh.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm just I'm just
thinking of, like, people that I know that...
Have
been in those situations and how they have
lifelong health issues now.
You know,
like, they have to deal with because it
can... That,
you know, the
body keeps the score book tells you so
much, but I just... When you were talking
about that, I'm just 2 people talk
popped into my brain then I'm like, yeah.
They have lifelong
challenges
and health issues as result from living in
that,
active state. Yeah.
Yeah.
So
let's talk about
the fear continuum.
I I think, and I think a lot
of people do as well. I know you
do. I think that things like addiction. There's
not a... Yes, no. It's not a light
switch that flips on or off.
Addiction is there's a progressive nature to that
disease.
You go from una addicted to whatever level
of addiction you end up at,
and it's it's a gradual
decline, basically.
And
I think you could have varying levels of
addiction to varying things.
Obviously, alcohol really hit me in the sweet
spot.
It alcohol was very effective at dopamine hijacking
for me.
So my brain
would reserve
dopamine release only for when I drink alcohol
eventually. That's another entirely different topic.
But
alcohol was something it was very easy for
me to become addicted to. I only smoked
weed a few times...
But it never really hit me. It it
didn't hit me in the sweep spot. It
wasn't my thing. So it was easy for
me to avoid a marijuana addiction because I
just didn't really like how it felt.
There... From what I'm seeing, there are 2
reasons why it was easy for you to
avoid an alcohol addiction.
1
is, I just don't think you had the
underlying causes
necessarily. You didn't have
you were
afraid all the time like I was. So
there was less kinda driving you to need
to self Medicate. But even if you did
need to self Medicate, alcohol probably wasn't gonna
be the thing you would have chosen because
as you've shared before on the pod, can
cast. You know, yeah. You enjoyed getting a
buzz. But after a couple of drinks, you
started to worry about what the hangover was
gonna feel like the stay, and
you didn't feel eu for as I've described
it, you felt more kinda,
light hitting and que and a little bit
out of control. Yeah. And I didn't like
that. But, I mean, it didn't stop me
from sure from getting plastered, You know, I
was younger. Yeah. But, yeah, I never I
always regretted it. There was, like, just regret
after about drinks 3 or 4. Yeah. For
anything more. So... Well, and so for me,
someone who's experienced a severe addiction.
I can look at other things in my
life
and
look at how addicted I am to them.
Obviously, with all this fear of losing things
we've already
worked so hard for,
like, a work addiction, work.
That's an
automatic no brainer. Of course,
I'm gonna do
I'm gonna do too much of the thing
that I think is needed to hold on
to the things I'm afraid I'm gonna.
Mh. And
so many of the people that we've met
through this work who had alcohol addiction also
have
you know, some kind of work related addiction,
and it makes perfect sense to me. If
they had a fear that drove their alcohol,
addiction that had something to do
with
accomplishment
or
accumulation or
or
financial stability, any of that, then obviously,
addiction is gonna be an easy place for
them to go for a addiction.
Have had
to varying degrees, some food related
you know, addictions. But when I say to
varying degrees, that's very important because I really
look at addiction as being on a continuum
on the 1 side,
you have no
addictive pull whatsoever, like,
so as I have never enjoyed sewing.
I've never thought, gosh if only I sold
more.
I would be more peaceful.
I've never thought about the joy that sewing
could bring. Even so cheap like me. I
haven't thought, gosh, if I learned to sew
so, I could save money on clothes. Like,
that is never clothes. Those. That has never...
Yeah. Been a pull for me whatsoever. So
when we think about addiction as a continuum,
you know, sewing is on 1 side and
alcohol on the other side for me, alcohol
is the sweet spot here. Like it is
for literally millions of us. Mh. And so
on
So... You know, And then... But that's not
even all the way on that side of
the continuum. Right? Because I could be an
end stage alcoholic, and I could die for
my addiction. And where I'm literally drinking around
the clock,
and I've stopped functioning. Otherwise, I've stopped going
to work. I've stopped self care. I've stopped
worrying about anything other than where I'm gonna
get my next drink.
So
you've got this big
spectrum, this big continuum that
alcohol lives on.
I believe
that fear is a continuum as well.
And on the 1 end, you've got fearless.
On the other end, you've got debilitating fear
and all these emotion words that we use,
they just live
somewhere on that continuum. And So
joy,
Euphoria, happiness, all these
emotions that we desire and that that we're
happy when we're in them,
Those are just a lack of fear. Those
are fearless.
Okay?
And on the other end, the debilitating fear
side,
you know, that this is where
sleepless
and,
you know, Paranoia
and just kinda terror and chaos
and trauma. It all lives on the super
fear
filled side of the continuum. And most of
my time is spent somewhere in between lives
but sadly, a little too far on the
fear side.
So I want your reaction? What is your
reaction to this theory
that I this hair brain theory that I've
got now that there's only 1 emotion. There
is fear and lack of fear,
and all the other ocean words we use
actually live somewhere on that continuum.
Well, usually, because I bat and swat down
every idea you have at first. That's just
my gut instinct.
But I also
I I get what you're saying for sure,
like it being
this
spectrum.
But I also would really be sad that
there isn't a
another side of the spectrum where there's, like,
you know, there stops the fearless,
and then it continues and fearless is like
middle point and then it continues on. No.
See the happier side. So you think there
need to be 2 emotions and fearless is
just the midpoint.
But I can see why fearless would
allow all those other good positive sides. So,
yeah, I guess look... Let's let's look at
what,
you know, 1 of them... Reasons it was
so hard to quit drinking
was
when I would describe the Euphoria I would
feel, which was usually
about 2 Ipa and new... Like, if I
was gonna drink for the night after about
2 Ipa,
I would start to feel this eu euphoria
feel. I know you're you're gag at the
side of drink 2 Ipa because you don't
like the bitterness of the Ipa. Yeah. To
But about 2 in, I would start to
feel this eu historic feeling.
It I mean, that was
good as I've ever felt, honestly, that's sad
and pathetic to say. I felt that way
for other things. I felt that way with...
For as things with our kids, I felt
that way for things in our relationship. I...
Occasionally,
although I live, spend a lot of of
my high school coaching days on the fear
side of the spectrum,
I have occasionally felt that way about something
that's has happened on the soccer field. Since
you have quit drinking. Yeah. Yeah. So there
are places where I feel that euphoria,
but when I think about it, it's this
you know, uni uninhabited,
like, nothing can phase me kind of a
feeling. Mh. And that's... I mean, think about
how this, plays into
why people get in trouble
drinking
addiction or not.
They have a few drinks, and then they
do stupid shit that they otherwise wouldn't do.
Why do you think they do stupid shit?
Because they're fear because they're fearless. No ambitions.
No inhibition.
And so when there is that lack of
fear, there's also all this room for youth
you know, I keep using the word euphoria,
just blissful joy.
Mh.
I don't know. I'm asking you to react
to something that I'm just presenting to you,
you know, live and unfiltered. So I think
it's kind of unfair for me to ask
you.
That's okay.
Yeah. I just...
I I feel like
there are also levels
of...
Contentment and happiness and joy,
and it's kind of ironic that me, the
pe is kind of
going and in the opposite direction. I feel
like that's another side because there are people
that have, like,
extreme, you know, exuberance and and just our
very joy full. And,
you know, and maybe they're living a really
shitty, fearful life, but it's just who they
are.
Like, they're really positive.
Well, I think those are the big pendulum
swing. Right? Yeah. You sometimes feel ex zoo
and
extra joyful,
but I... Guarantee somewhere behind closed doors those
people are feeling the debilitating,
you know, grip of fear. Yeah. Because you
can't have... You can't go high on 1
side of a without going high on the
other side sometimes. Yeah. We learned that from
doctor Anna.
Yeah. Dopamine nation, look at me accurately attributing
something. You know, I didn't even have to
research Just recalled that so well. I love
her travel love her book Out of you.
Yeah. I've just...
I'm know. It just seems kind of
sad
in a way
that we describe it, like, you know, that
there's only fear is 1 emotion and don't
here's the driver for all the other emotions.
I just kind of like of imagining like
a za bon,
like driving around the,
like, oh, when you're fearing fearful today. So
we're gonna put you over in this penalty
box and you're gonna live with anxiety over
here and maybe it's also because I saw
it inside out too. Did that a am
bon and inside out to? They don't have
a za bon but should place hockey. And
then, like,
over here saw you know, you're scoring goal
and,
you know,
and
I don't know. I do. I mean sports
is a great example, Sherry. I mean, talk
about something that has inhalation and heartbreak.
Mh. I mean, the pendulum swings hard in
athletic endeavors.
And so ugh, maybe that's why,
you know, about half of the Us population
is addicted to sports 1 way or the
other, whether it's playing it or watching it
or betting on it or Mh.
Or just using as an excuse to drink
beer. I mean, I think there's a reason
why it's
it's a part of it. It's that pendulum.
I'm so Yeah. I would be really or
interested to learn and,
you know, and to think about that more.
I mean, you say it's sad
that
I think I think you're you you're perhaps
locking in on the fact that fear is
a negative emotion and you're saying. It's sad
that the only thing there is a negative
thing. Yeah. But then also that's the negative
thing is you're is is a positive thing.
And there is a there is a good
level of fearing things. I mean,
you know, like, I for 1 will not
surf
because for 1, I'm getting too old now,
but I have a very strong fear of
sharks in the water.
Like been in the ocean before. Half. But
But not out on a surfboard. No. In
in the in the shark zone. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You know? So
a navy also because I'm watching Shark week
and their.
It is the summer... It is the summer.
So, you know, I mean, there is... But
there is a healthy level of fear that
I do have appreciate and get. I just,
you know, also coming off of the podcast
with Lori,
I think you said was 02:48,
thinking of all the words that are other
descriptors
than just
then just happy or sad. It was And
I remember
doing some research about the my anger
issues,
and this was, like, before I think you
even had
like, try sobriety wants for 6 months. But...
And it talked about how
anger is often
covering up fear.
And so I did
I did relate to that a lot. Yeah.
You know? I was angry because I was
fearful of your behavior or your reaction or
or the home life or how you were
gonna, you know, treat us.
So then I became defense of angry.
So I can I can
I can see it? I can... So in
justification of my overs simplification, there reason this
is, I think so important to me and
maybe nobody else in the whole world who
cares
is
it's like you can't fix the problem until
you can identify it. Mh.
And
being able to say, when I feel my
anxiety go up, 1 of the things that's
interesting about sobriety for me is I can
actually feel
anxiety. I can feel
sometimes, you know, this happens to me early
in the morning when I first waking up,
and then something pops into my head that
I'm nervous about for that day. I can
feel adrenaline. I think it's I don't know.
I could feel something surged through my body
I'm pretty sure it's adrenaline.
And so
that's an awareness that I didn't... Have back
when I was drinking, it actually surged much
worse back when I was drinking, I'd wake
up in panic attacks in the middle of
the night, but I I was too,
you know,
woven into my into and my addiction to
do any kind of self analysis like that
who But now I can feel
when anxiety is going up. I can feel
adrenaline surge. I can feel all of this
stuff.
And
what I've
recognized
as this
this thought has continued to develop in my
head is,
what a blessing it is
to
be able to say, okay, What am I
afraid of in this moment?
Instead of, okay, what's the emotion I'm feeling?
Where is it coming from,
you know, who's to blame? Is it in
the is it...
About the past? Is it...
Something I'm anticipating in the future. No. I
can go straight to...
I don't feel good right now. What am
I... What am I afraid of?
And it can be simple like I'm afraid
to reveal that the milestone is 500
survey results
because that feels significant to me, or it
can be as big as
there is
a tractor trailer out of control skin toward
me on the ice,
and,
you know, that's something
super tangible
that I need to be afraid of. Just
narrowing it down to fear makes it for
me, a lot easier to pinpoint and address
very quickly.
I mean, you... In order for this to
work, I have to... Be
willing to acknowledge my own in insecurity and
willing to acknowledge that
I can sometimes be afraid of things that
other people aren't afraid of. Yeah. Like you.
I can be afraid of
You're afraid of me? Some... Like, no. I
can be afraid of some podcast
statistic that you don't know, you know, you
wouldn't know if it's a thousand or 10000000,
and I can be afraid of precisely what
it actually is. Mh. So
you know, a big part of this for
me is
acknowledging
that I'm afraid of things, you I shouldn't
be afraid. And actually, it's helping me
to work out of that.
Acknowledging the fear and pinpoint that it is
fear
is helping me to say that's a dumb
thing to be afraid of. Let's work on
not being afraid of that anymore.
Yeah. I think lots of faces over there.
Like they're seeing say. Yeah. They're very much
thinking. If they're not... It's not like, normally
where you're like, you're a dumbass. It's not
that face. I'm familiar with that. Face.
Now I just lost my train Thought. Mh
Well, I guess, I mean, it kinda
weighs out... I know what I'm saying. When
you were talking about that,
like, kind of working through
what it is that's way worrying you and
what was making you feel that
anxiety and adrenaline rush and kinda naming it.
It makes me think of that podcast.
Was with Lori because it was talking about
naming the emotion you were having.
You know,
and
when you do put it through the lens
of fear
and all the different levels,
because a lot of words
that were on the list, and I don't
know how many of our listeners like, went
to the website to
to check it out check out the website
that was...
Where the list with the.
Yeah.
But it was... They were they were emotional
words that were all,
you know, some of them, yes. We're higher
up, like a ex ex,
Blissful.
And
And then you had, like, peaceful and calm.
Yeah. Kind of the other end of the
good side, but... Yeah. But more miles, You
know know? Exactly. Like, when we kind of
talked about that pendulum swing with that in
that call with Lori, that podcast with Laurie,
You know, the higher up and staying in
that middle
ground.
So
I, I mean... Yeah.
Because I think that there is a healthy
level of fear of things that keep us
safe if it's our
instincts or whatnot. But then when we get
2
anxiety driven and
worried about something and fearful of something.
I can see how
processing that and really working
that out? Like, what's
what's the fear that I have?
You know, you were talking about, like, what
is that fear that I'm having experiencing right
now that's making me have those different words
like, worry and concern and anger and
Yeah. Yeah.
So we talked about the
the guru,
the popular
acknowledgement that there is of
emotions and emotional intelligence. We talked about B
Brown.
We talked about,
you know,
psychologists on Instagram videos that'll
cover emotions, things like that.
So that's identifying
the emotions,
but let's close with talking about what
the popular way of addressing
and taking care of
those insecure feelings those emotions.
Everything
points toward staying in the present,
Instagram psychologists,
all the major religions,
most,
you know, big time philosophers,
going back to the beginning of recorded history,
talk about staying in the present.
Let's think about why that is.
If you're not fixated on the past,
you know,
you can't have...
You don't spend all your time being afraid
of repeating those mistakes. Or afraid of what
those mistakes have done to you
or,
you know, being afraid of how your reputation
has been damaged or how your life isn't
as full as you thought it would be
because of these things you've done in the
past fear of the things you've done in
the past.
Likewise staying in the present sense you from
looking forward with
anticipation.
And,
you know, anticipation can go either. Right? It
can be... You can be anticipating something bad
happening, or you can anticipate some kind of
joyful event.
That would be fear and fearless.
But all the
pop culture advice and pop psychology advice
and religious advice, all the major religions
stay in the present.
It's a lot harder to be afraid in
the present.
If you and I are sitting here having
this conversation, and I'm blocked in on the
conversation
because I need to concentrate to
share thoughts and to listen to your ideas.
There's not room for being afraid.
We can hit stop on the podcast, and
I can immediately go right back to worrying
about,
you know, some...
1 of the many things that I sit
around to worry about all but it's really
hard
to be afraid when I'm locked in on
the present. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Yeah. And I mean, I I feel like
the whole time we've been kind of discussing
this, like the word anxiety keeps popping up
because I think that that's such a fear
based and fear driven.
I don't wanna call it a feeling.
I don't... What do you call? I mean,
I'm trying to I mean, anxiety is certainly
a part of the nervous system. Yeah. So
III
mean, I'm trying to think of the word
and I can't think of the word right
now. Not emotion?
No because I think it's more than an
emotion. I think it's an action that's a...
It's a nervous system thing. It, like... Yeah.
There's there's hormones that are being released on
body.
Yeah. It's
how much of that is is,
you know, and that's the some of that
advice
for people with
anxiety is, like, trying to... Stay in the
press day on the present and and get
your kind of, like, calming, like, learning those
calming techniques if you don't have to be
on medication for unless you are actively presently
swimming with sharks,
it is hard
to be afraid in the present for the
majority of most of our days.
There are certainly bad things that happen and
in real time in the present, you can
be terrified.
But you know it's hard to get locked
in and stay in
terror. Mh.
When you're in the present.
So
Yeah. And then when all of this advice
to handling
of all the emotions, and all of this
advice to to keeping your nervous system regulated.
I think it's all really important and it's
really act accurate. I just think
it maybe, you know, I again, just at
the
risk of overs simplifying, which is my favorite
thing to do
is just about staying away from fear. And
the reason this this kind after this,
you know, considering this is so important is
because
because of the degree to which beer drives
the 2 scary things for people
dealing with alcoholism, whether they're the drinker
or the loved 1. Or the former drinker
and the loved 1.
Fear can drive relapse,
and and continued alcohol and fear can drive
getting stuck in nervous system activation and both
of those things
are serious threats
to your ability to survive. Mh.
And so
recognizing fear and then doing things to combat
the fear. And like Laurie said, back on
episode 02:48,
identifying it, you know, acknowledging it, putting a
finger on it
is more than half of the battle.
So when I sit and think, god, I
am worked up right now. What is going
on, I don't have to start from,
you know, what are of the many millions
of things that could possibly be bothering me
is this? And is it,
you know, what what is the emotion? I
can start with, okay. What am I afraid
of.
And for me,
it just seems a lot easier to get
to the answer
when the question is when Afraid of as
opposed to what am I feeling?
It's more specific. Mh.
Yeah? Yeah.
I think there's a chance there's something here?
Yeah. I think there's something here. K. I'm
not just
over here thinking about things. To.
I mean, because I...
It's kinda funny that you've put the word
fear in and 1 of the practices that
what I was really kinda working on anger
was, what am I angry with? Because we
have words, like, frustrated.
Annoyed,
angry,
upset
all these words. Murderous.
I, I don't think I've ever used that
1. But. Okay.
That kind of represent,
you know, anger and because we don't want
anger. Right? We that's kind of a bad
negative
kind...
It's supposed to be. I mean, You know,
always was. We're learning that. Now it's not.
But but, you know, and then when I
found out that
fear was a driving factor behind the anger.
So it's kind funny that you're, like, 1AM
I afraid. 1AM my fearful love right now
and you're walking through. I often have to
say, why am I so pissed off? Why
am I so angry? About this. What is
annoying me about
the situation? So I'm gonna I'm gonna try
that over the next few weeks, Like, put
it through the filter lens and use a
word of what am I... What is making
me fearful of that?
You know, I may have to say. Why
am I angry about it? What's what's the
fear?
Driving the anger? Yeah. That's great. And.
See how it goes. Yeah.
Please report back. There's a new person
starting at my job.
And since I am afraid of change and
fearful of change.
I... I'm gonna really try to pay attention
these next few weeks,
seeing if
if how I feel about things and how
I react and respond to maybe some changes
that are happening. And so rather than think
of think of this person makes me angry
and why did they make me angry? You're
gonna think what am I afraid of about
the way this person?
Yeah. I mean... And why is the change
making me fearful? I've been doing that only
just recently, I've started to have this kind
theory and thought, but I've been doing the
same thing, Sherry,
like, not why is this person pissing me
off.
But what am I afraid of about what
this person's doing?
I afraid that they're taking control in an
area where I think I deserve to have
control? Mh.
Am I afraid that they're gonna do it
so differently for me that it's gonna make
my life harder?
Or am I just being, you know, stubborn?
It's it's it has helped me. Mh.
I'm curious. Are you afraid that I'm never
gonna stop talking. Oh, I fear that every
day
every day. Well, I'm glad I was able
to
identify 1 of your biggest peers.
Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
3 resources.
If you love or loved an Alcoholic. We
offer support and connection in our echoes of
recovery group. Check us out at echoes of
recovery dot org. If you are a high
functioning alcohol, like seeking methods and connection in
early sobriety.
We're ready for you at shout sobriety dot
org. No matter who you are. There's something
for you in our book. Sober revolution, evolve
into sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go
to sober revolution dot org. For my wife
Sherry Sal, I'm Matt Sal. Thanks for listening
to the intoxicated podcast.
I