Welcome to the intoxicated podcast.
Well, I'm Sherry Seal, and that was my
house than Matt. We have questions about the
impact of alcohol and addiction on relationships. If
you have those kinds of questions to, you're
in the right place, Here we go.
Hey, Sherry. Do you remember that? Question and
answer session we had for folks who might
or might not have been interested in our
shout variety program or our echoes of recovery
program. We did that back in June. Yeah.
I do. It was in June. Right? It
was June. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do again again.
That sounds fun. How about August? Let's do
it. Right. But I am itching to go.
So if we're gonna do it in August.
It's gotta be August first.
Your calendar free.
That work? I think I can make that
work. Great. No big cat session scheduled August
first.
August first, 06:30PM
in the mountain Daylight, saint mountain daylight... Mountain
saint, whatever Mountain time,
06:30PM
them. The last time we it, we did
in the morning. Mh. And we had a
lot of people actually,
surprised me, how many people join us.
But we did hear from a lot of
people that say,
I can't get out of work, so we're
gonna do in the evening.
So
just to help folks 06:30 Mountain Time is
08:30 on the East Coast 05:30
Pacific in
07:30.
30 central. So I know. It's some... Some
people like, a little help with trans
translation. I sometimes screw up and go the
wrong direction, but that's my own personal home.
06:30 Mountain Time, question and answer session, You
don't have to
be anything more than just slightly curious to
join us. There's no commitment. What we're gonna
do, we're gonna have someone who's is a
current member of our echoes of of recovery
program.
On the Zoom video call with us, along
with someone who is a current member of
our shout sobriety program,
they're gonna tell a little bit of their
experience with the programs.
We're gonna give you a little rundown on
what is involved, and then we're gonna take
questions. So pretty painless. You can in fact,
keep your camera off
and not unmute, and you can even make
up a fake name. If you would like
that level of anonymity, you are welcome to
All you have to do to express interest
and receive the Zoom link for this August
first at 06:30 Mountain Time,
video call is to send an email to
matt at
sober and una ashamed dot com.
And we will not
reuse that email for any purpose. We won't
sell it. We won't follow up and pest
you. You'll give me your email address, get
the Zoom link, and we will be out
have after that. So
we hope we have another big group that
wants to join us and learn more.
Sherry, today, we are blessed to be joined
by friend and
you know, somebody whose family has been impactful
on our life,
and we have worked together in a variety
of ways. Billy Wynn joins us today on
the intoxicated podcast. Thanks for being here, billy.
Thank you. Have, Sherry. Could be with you?
Billy is the founder and Chairman of impact
Health policy partners,
which
a little research and, you know, looked to
the blurb on your website. So... You did
research. I just wanna make sure you know
how. I'm impressed. A deep I went for
this.
It's the only
and driven public interest government relations firm focused
on health and well being,
and we just love that about you. Thank
you. Billy is also along with his wife
Christie, who we know and love as well.
In fact, Christie
was on 1 of the original guests on
the intoxicated podcast,
way back episode 22,
it was titled gray area drinking with Christy
Wynn.
So Billy and Christie together
founded a week. A sober box
alcohol free bottle shop and coffee house.
Here in Denver, you opened in November of
20 20. That's alright? So coffee out of
the door. Yeah. Covid. Oh, that's right. Yeah.
Yeah. That's right and we got coffee. We
were, like... And then finally, we we worked
our way in while you were having some
renovations and it was all getting started. We...
Nice. We said we know the owners. Can
we have peak.
We get a little special tour, you know,
a special treatment.
Awake was an absolutely
really important
establishment here in Denver,
sadly closed after about 2 years in August
of 22,
And I wanna say public quickly on the
podcast. What I've told you privately,
you know, for the restaurant business is hard.
The bar business is the coffee business is
hard, but I don't think of what you
did in terms of
business
success or failure. I think of it as
a huge bold step forward
to lead our culture out of a generations
old belief that alcohol is required for socializing.
Billie, I am a recovered alcohol
and what was fascinating to me is that
what I learned is wake was not just
for me and my kind. It was much
broader
It was for anyone who wants an inclusive
social experience,
featuring music and people and food and drink
without the toxicity
that's how I feel about it. How do
you feel about it? Thank you. Very much,
Matt.
And both of your support while we were
operating awake and even after I closed it,
like you said, is a lot to me.
So thank you so much.
I do look at as as a success.
I mean even if it was opened, and
then it was closed.
It was incredibly fulfilling and meaningful for me,
and I got to be present to see
see
lots of people having a good time in
an alcohol free environment.
I saw people come in with... And look
at the of
the bar and have tears in their eyes,
because they didn't think that a space like
that was possible.
They didn't feel comfortable and other social environments,
and they they, you know, weren't sure that
they'd ever see that a place like that
again. So
it was really,
I a lot of fun there myself, I
think and hope that a lot of other
people did too. And nothing lasts forever. And
so it was amazing 2 year ride, and
I'll, I'll, always appreciate if that was a
part of my life. That's great.
Address what I said about this was not
just a place for me.
Talk about
what the demographic of the clientele was a
little bit? And did it surprise you. Did...
Like, did you target an audience? And that's
who came and that's it?
Know it was interesting. So first of all,
we were... There was, like, the the local
kinda super local
crowd that was really there for coffee. Like,
they wash and they come in and they
get a latte. And so that's obviously kind
of a a broader
spectrum of people in terms of, you know,
their interest in the people who are coming
for the alcohol free experience, which primarily in
the evening. For those people, it was really
metro
city wide, really up and down the front
range and even nationally, mean, people would fly
to Denver, and I don't wanna say it
was the sole purpose They came to Denver,
but they told us. It was a big
reason that they came to denver, Yeah. Like
a Pilgrimage to this, you know, 1 of
a very few alcohol free bar spaces.
And, among that crowd,
I would say, I don't know if this
was a surprise, but it was
decidedly
tilted women. So probably 2 thirds to say
70 percent of the clientele
was women. And
I think maybe I speculated Of course Christie
was my my partner through the whole enterprise
and
you know, brought a lot of her own,
aesthetic and a lot of her own kind
of perspective on social spaces to it.
III got I would like to say that...
And I don't have if you would agree
this Matt that, women had an more of
an open mind about experimenting with alcohol freedom
in a social environment, maybe they weren't sort
of in full blown recovery, but they were
they were comfortable in that space of experimenting
with different social options, then then then are.
So that might have something to do with
why our demographic was so heavily women but
I I would agree with that. Sorry. Go.
I'm just say another thing is,
you know, being a woman,
shocker.
Turns out you're the only 1 in the
room.
I
think that a lot of them would feel
very comfortable and safe in the space with
that. That's what I can remove. Even though
I'm not a 1 that was gonna say
that. Go. You know, because they're many times
where you walk in and there's that 1
person at the end of the bar that
just gives you the Willie, and it's only
happy hour.
You know, know. So, like, knowing
our daughter who's 22 and the things that
she's experiences is a young woman, and the
things that I experienced is young woman. You
know, I think that it was also just
offering a safe space for trying new things.
I think you're right. I think as was
are a little bit more open to try
new things, but also having a safe space
to try those things.
Yeah. That makes us... And we did hear
that from of a lot of our guests.
And that that actually reminds me. We we
also had a really
strong support in the
Lgbtq community. And some of that was because
we we started awake in 20 20, and
it was the summer of George Floyd and
all things going on and a lot of
us, you know, Christy and I included doing
a lot of soul searching about our role
in in oppression and and all that happens
in our society. Mh. And so we really
wanted to make clear that we were welcoming
all people including
people in the Lgbtq lgbtq community,
like we had drag shows and that kind
thing, which is a lot of fun.
And we saw a lot of people like
me. I think for similar reasons, that you
just described Sherry, that that when you take
the alcohol out of it, a lot of
the risks that that they tell me they
face in a more alcohol fueled environment are
are taken away or minimized. And so I
was very proud of that as well. And
and while, you should be, I it in
doing this work it has come to my
attention
or just my awareness,
how infrequently I feel unsafe out there in
the big bad world. Well I'm drinking or
not. Mh. Just
just because I'm a man. Mh. And
we've met so many people for whom there
is a risk just a stepping outside the
door. Mh. And then when you pour alcohol
on top of that, the risk just grows
exponentially. Because of any number of, you know,
access dental or
bad evil intentional things that can happen. And
so
so, yeah, I think I think my perspective
on that has
has just widened in ways that I never
expected, except for through hearing the stories and
and meeting the people that we have. And
so I'm really excited for the... That level
of safety that you you guys created.
Tell me how... So as I... When I
read your bio at the beginning,
we talked about your,
your
involvement in the health policy world. Mh. How
did you go from that to an interest...
Not just an interest in, Yeah but having
the, you know, C to go forward and
start this thing called Waco wake Denver? How
do you get from point a to point
b? Yeah. Well, so so... Yeah. So my
career historically had been in in healthcare care
policy? And I've I've been with different in
for the last several years it had my
own firm and now just this year have
a new partner, but it's always been focused
on primarily what the federal government is doing
in the healthcare arena and with a strong
tilt toward
expanding access to to health care,
and particularly for vulnerable
populations and where there's there's
we're lacking some equity in our current system.
Mh. And so
when I quit drinking alcohol,
and I
had an opportunity to have people managing some
of the day to day, you know, work
of my firm at the time,
something that I wanted to do was think
about this in more of a systemic level,
and not, you know, it's really a aggregation
of a lot of individual choices people are
baking, right, around alcohol, but also we have
a society that, you know, not so suddenly
tells us that not only that it's okay
to drink alcohol, but something's wrong if we're
not drinking alcohol. Yeah. And so, Christine and
I, you know,
as when you when you step away from
that as you might when you stop drinking.
It's really startling. You know? So so we
wanted to to not only
stop drinking ourselves
and, we wanted to help others, you know,
make that choice and create space for others
to make that choice. And normalize that choice,
and hopefully help grow it, you know,
so that, you know, people like Christian and
I, who didn't come to some kind of
abrupt, end the line and decide, you know,
look kinda like, we had to quit. Maybe
we did, but we didn't think about it
that way. We felt like it was more
of a choice. Mh. And so wanted to
create that kind of avenue for people who
are interested in making that choice to say
you can still go out, you can still
have fun. You can still listen to music.
You can still have a sophisticated drinking,
tasting beverage. And so that that, you know,
kind of momentum from my career of looking
at health and wellness a systemic perspective, I
think is what inspired me to do awake.
Absolutely. I so I... As I said, earlier,
I am comfortable with calling myself a recovered
alcoholic. I know that you prefer to consider
yourself to be alcohol free. Does it have
to do with what you just alluded to,
the fact that there wasn't some big crash
and burn rock bottom?
Why do you choose that label as opposed
to
you know, the other myriad of labels that
are out there are available. Sure. I guess
for 1 thing for me, it's the simplest
and the clearest. You know, it... I... In
January of 20
19, I decided to stop drinking, and I
haven't drank since. And so I'm free of
alcohol.
I didn't have a...
I think part of it is the the
the maybe the lack of kind of the
dead end type of experience, at least as
far as I could was... You kind of
consciously aware of. Mh.
Then I did it didn't go along with
it a really strong judgment about every other
pop substance that some people might consider into.
And so, there are lots and lots of
things that I that I don't do, some
of which because I think they're dangerous, some
of which because I think they're harmful, some
of which I just simply don't enjoy. Mh.
But there are some other things that I
know a lot of people in the alcohol
for your community, you know, sort of lumped
together with alcohol that for me,
it has very different and Have a very
different mindset about about that substance. And so
I'm open to, you know, engaging with them,
still in a very moderate very rare kind
of occasion,
but it doesn't feel a contradictory to my,
alcohol free lifestyle. I like that. It's specific
alcohol free. There's not a lot of ambiguity
there. It'd be hard for someone to be
confused about the decision you made around alcohol.
That makes a ton of sense. Sobriety is
so loaded. Mh. Cali sober. Love that. Love
that turn.
Among others. Correct. But, yeah. They're that makes
that makes a ton of sense.
Okay. So let's let's get into
not just awake because you have
you know, obviously, if you're gonna get into
something like this, and
you are a researcher or you're a pure
smart guy.
You looked at more than just what's happening
in Denver. Mh you... I think you have
a broader perspective, which is why we brought
you here because this is not a Denver
gas. Right? This is a
as a much wider audience than Denver. So
there used to be
for, you know, 3 or 4 or 5
choices of non alcohol like beer. And when
I quit drinking,
not the... Not this time, not 7 and
a half years ago, but as a previous
attempt. Yeah. I decided at 1 point. I'm
gonna get really into non alcoholic bid. That's
gonna be... Because I had an identity crisis.
Not drinking alcohol. I didn't know who I
was anymore because I so associated
sadly. I mean, it sounds pathetic to me
now, but at the time,
It's just the fact. I so associated who
I was with what I was drinking. And
so
part of dealing with my identity crisis as
a sober person
was to decide I was gonna become a
con of all non alcoholic beers, which at
the time was.
I think there was a saint Polly girls.
Mh. There was a there was a guinness
version that was never available anywhere. I could
never find it. But I you find it
in the in, like, bars in the Ann
arbor area because we had friends that lives
there and I was pregnant once we went.
I was like, oh, caliber, or we could
find it again. And our friend told us
about it because she had lived in saint.
Paul. That's another place you can find it.
I once while we're on this topic. I
was at Coo field. I was the designated
driver,
a bunch of drunk, which is another entirely
different story and and 1 of the worst
nights in my life to be perfectly honest
about it. But I walked the whole perimeter
of the Concourse. Yeah. Looking for the rumored
non alcoholic coo beer that they had. I
finally did find it. It was, you know,
they... What they cell beer, probably at
80 different locations around the Concourse. 1 of
the 80 had a non alcoholic course. 20
step, it it's like 20 steps that's of
beer and 20 so more. There's more beer.
But think about how far we've come from
that. 4 or 5 not very tasty choices
to what has happened
and to let our listeners know who might
not know. The the market has just exploded
It has no doubt. To what do you
attribute that? I think that you know, number
1, it it seems like the technology has
advanced a little bit. So, yeah, you can
down get, you know, an Ip or, you
know, all these different types of styles and
flavors, and that's just beer.
I think also the just this growing interest
and acceptance of,
you know, making an alcohol choice. Again, whether
it's for the rest of your life or
just 1 night. I think that there's just
for, you know, the a social
evolution going on that embraces that choice. And
so the market is meeting that. And what...
It's a bit of a chicken in the
ag, because all even for me,
I would say part of certainly what inspired
awake and maybe even partially inspired my decision
to stop drinking
was the burg availability of alcohol free products.
And what I I perceived to be this
kind of going along with that,
the idea that
not drinking was suddenly kind of a cool
thing. You know? It wasn't like, you know,
bad. It wasn't necessarily this like,
kinda sad thing or a negative thing. It
was like this new,
exciting and interesting lifestyle that somebody could have,
and there was products there and and beverages
there that would support that.
So, yeah. And it's been... In that, you
know, it really...
At the very least enabled a bar, like,
away to exist because you can't really exist
on 4 beers and, you know,
Club Soda. Right. You're gonna have some interesting
choices for people. So, you know, we, we
can get into as much detail as you
want. But, you know, the even wine, that's
the hardest thing to do. I'd I think.
But and then spirits and both spirits that,
you know, mimic
existing kind of alcohol based flavors and lots
and lots of beautiful botanical spirits that don't
try to make existing alcohol flavors. So, you
know, we had a full 3 shelves of
amazing drinks there, and, it was pretty site
and created a lot of interesting on the
menu. Mh. I have a... Sorry to quick
question. Are those called shrubs, the herbal eli.
There are... Shrubs is is 1 type of
of, yeah. 1 type of beverage and often
used in mixing usually other things.
So... And that that was that was a
work that I learned when I started to
found wake. I'm not, like, wasn't a, you
know, didn't know a lot about bar or
anything like that. But
yeah. Shrubs are something that even even, you
know, alcohol based bartender will use sometimes to
kinda different flavor. Well Matt and I were
our tenders in college. So I always found
it very fascinating, and I remember walking in
like, oh, look at it looks so pretty,
and it's all I'll alcohol free.
You can have fancy drinks. It does look
pretty. And that leads kind of into my
next question.
When you talk about things that do mimic,
they're alcohol companion. Mh. Or things that don't.
Mh. I find it kind of intriguing. I
mean, Gin is like an objectively
bad tasting thing. Right? Now I drink enough
jen that I loved this. Right? I would've
bought you. I would've have walked over hot
coals for gin at 1 point in my
life. But it... But it it... I just
I'm so curious. If you're going to try
to make a fancy drink and make it
feel inclusive and make people feel like they
have an option that's other than club soda.
Yeah.
The fact that 1 of them is designed
to taste like gen or tequila kinda falls
into that category too. Yeah. Is this
is this, you know, the kind of the
target audience for that is people like me
that used to drink gin and love it
and and feel like they're missing something now
Do you have like, talk about your... Yeah.
You're... Like, are people... Are they sitting with
the bar every day after work and just
pounding not out outgoing gems?
I maybe some people are. You know, I
I don't... It's... I don't have a final
answer about that. I, I do say that
I I enjoy both the the spirits that
You know, the old flavors that are also
used to drink a lot of and and
those that don't.
I, you know, every blue moon, I will
put some Monday gin on alcohol gin, You
know, shake it up in ice. I used
to be a big martini guy. I'll a
martini teeny glass, and I'll do a twist,
and I'll I'll have a ball in that.
Mh. You know,
beverage.
And is that is that due to some
weird nostalgia you know, for those Friday afternoons,
where I would get hammered. You know, maybe.
I don't know, and maybe that's not super
healthy. I don't know. You know, or it
was... You know, there's a ritual side to
it. Right And I've I've got the same
ritual that I enjoyed, and I'm just extracting
that harmful, you know, addicted chemical out of
the ritual and so it's it's, you know,
that feels healthy to put it that way.
So I don't I don't know. You know,
this like this and everything that you know,
people to figure out what they enjoy and
what, you know, is healthy and supports their,
you know, well being. And I... For me,
I'm kind of open to all of it.
I'm... Most of the time, I'm just a
beer guy. Like, you know, high 0 or
I like an athletic or whatever. But,
every now and then I do get a
bug to make a little alcohol free cocktail
and enjoy that too.
There's a lot of buzz in the recovery
community
about this potentially being a slippery drinking non
alcoholic,
mimicking,
alcohol mimicking beverages,
including how alcohol spares all of
beer and spirits and Well, it's that identity
piece that. Yeah. You know, you're not shaking
that as
is enough and healing and recovery, I think
is what is concerning to partners. Yeah. I
mean, I think like if they continue to
drink the non alcoholic things. And like you,
mad, you will drink anything. Add add a
mass paste. It doesn't matter if it's bubbly
water, coffee, decaf coffee, iced tea, tea, it's
gone. Well, and that's why it was important
for me to stay away from Gin because
it didn't matter if it was a light
beer or gin. It was going down at
the same case. So... But did you face
any kind of push pushback? Did you face
any kind of... Did did people race concern?
Like, what are you doing here? Man, You're
making it really easy for the alcoholic to
laps. Did you get any of that? Definitely.
Yes. And and that was something I wasn't
prepared for.
And and I think part of it had
to do with that I didn't go through
a additional recovery mh program. I didn't do
Aa. And so I didn't I didn't know
a lot about that culture. And I think...
And not not that it's monolithic.
By any stretch. Lots and lots of different
types of recovery groups and Aa groups and
and
so 1 thing we did here,
a lot was was really kind of 2
different
related things. 1 was some of the alcohol
free beers and alcohol free spirits aren't don't
have 000
alcohol. They have less than 0.5 percent, which
as probably many of your listeners know is
technically what the threat this for calling something,
not an alcoholic.
But then, also, yeah, the flavor profile, there
was also this kind of, you know, social
concern that even even if there's 0 alcohol
at all,
the taste to the in the and the
environment of being and, you know, we we
intentionally recreated a bar environment. Right? Music and
a bar and, like, you know, that was
what we intended to do. So there were
definitely people who felt like just that environment
could be potentially triggering for people and kinda
move them off off course. So... And we
we had
you know, 1 star, Google reviews from people
who didn't even go there, but just just
did not like the the philosophy concept of
being concept.
So... And, you know, we're where we landed
with that number 1 we were we we
were increasingly clear and
you know,
vocal about which products were 0 and which
products were, you know, between 0 0 and
0.5. And and so we even... We had
a 0 menu. So if that was important
to people, they would only be looking at
those types of products.
And we also just landed in the in
and embracing the fact that Wake was not
gonna be for everybody and not gonna be
for a lot of people, and we had
to trust, you know, people's judgment. If if
you and where we... And we even... We
adopted this, I think on our website at
some point, it was just like, if you
think it might be uncomfortable for you or,
you know, please don't come. Right? I mean,
I if if it if it if it's
if it feels like ambiguous or, you know,
you're not sure, then air on the side
of caution, last thing we wanna do is
any harm to anyone or, you know, people
trying to
you know,
improve their lives by moving away from alcohol.
Yeah. Just these
there's been. This is 1 of the few
areas where I don't have a strong opinion.
As far as this slippery slope whole concept,
Mh. But I do have a few experiences.
I mostly don't
drink... I... Mostly drink bubbly water because it's
basically free. Mh. And what... I'd like to
get into this in it in a bit.
But with d alcohol something that was made
with alcohol is not cheap. And so this
stuff isn't basically free. And so knows Matt
is cheese. I am not gonna use rub.
And I don't want not conservative. Calories either,
but mostly I am cheese. But I was
actually out Awake. I had a friend and
Tom from Phoenix,
and it was, like, 1 of these id
situations. Right? It was a sunny Saturday. We
sat outside. Mh And we we had lunch.
And while we were eating, I had 2
Ipa
and I felt this non a bizarre. Yeah.
Not... Well, obviously say Was there a way.
Well, I just wanna I remind people. I
had this
bizarre
like, paying to order a third, and I'm
like, u. These aren't cheap. What are you
doing? I didn't I didn't end doing it,
but I was like, where is this coming
from. There's no alcohol in this. Yeah. But
I think the flavor profile is close enough,
that it clicked something in my head. It
didn't cause a relapse It didn't come close
to causing a relapse. Yeah. But but there
is something about that nostalgia.
And
I think that can... I I come down
on that can be a good thing a
bad thing. If you're. Grumpy and you've had
a bad day and you have any sleep,
and then you get this nostalgic pull to
drink gin, that's probably a not a great
thing. But if it... The circumstances are right,
it can be great.
Even beyond the wake, you you just... You
mentioned that you'll make a Martini sometimes. Mh.
Do you continue to consume some of the
awesome products that you learned about on a
regular basis. How you handle? Well, not on
a regular basis, and that's that's another kind
of interesting thing. I mean, like, and Christian
and I both have remarked on this that,
you know, we we created this bar, and
we would go And of course we would
drink the drinks when we were there. But
then we didn't... We didn't... And and
I mean, we probably have a lot more
non alcoholic products in our home than, you
know, the average person does. But I mean,
but we didn't have, like, this big stock
home bar of alcohol free, XYNZ and we're
like every day or even every week. Really,
you know,
going and and making ourselves alcohol free beverages
or grabbing a beer.
So at at a certain point, it was...
I mean, there there was... There's part of
our thinking,
you know, that,
that
that we were just weren't that interested in
a alcoholic And we all... And it kind
of related, we weren't then interested interested in
alcohol free products anymore. Yeah. It just wasn't...
It's like, it
I don't know how to put it, like,
we kinda just moved on. You know? And
we were just like, yeah, Club soda is
totally fine. I don't Don't, you know, have
to have something else.
And
it is surprisingly expensive. I have had that
same experience that you described where I've had
an alcohol free beer, and I think there's
some kind of chemical passageway in my brain
that's connected between that flavor. Mh. And that
sensation of relaxation. And, yeah, I don't I
don't know if it's good or bad, but
I've definitely had that feel Well, the nice
thing is my... I attribute a lot of
my over consumption to the fact that I
had a buzz when I was making decisions.
Mh. So the nice thing is you've had
2 non alcoholic Ipa, you get that poll.
Yeah. The order a third. Yeah. But you
still got your senses about, you so you
don't. Yeah. Whereas if I had had 2
you know, loaded full alcohol Ipa. Totally. 2
would have led to 12. Right? Totally. So
I think that's a big part of it.
Let's talk about the cost of these products.
Mh.
I
maybe because of my cheap, but there was
a period where I was like,
this is so frustrating. We're trying to change
a trend. We're trying to
introduce something new to the culture, but
I thought
because
an alcohol free bar or a bottle shop
because their volume is probably so much lower
Than a than a full liquor store. Mh.
They must have to mark that product up.
Mh. But what I've come to realize I
think, and this is why we wanted to
have you on. Is just the manufacturing of
the product is so expensive. So it's not
only like you're you're making an 80 percent
margin on something you purchased really cheaply. Correct?
That's
correct. So so starting with the manufacturer, I
the manufacturing process is more expensive. Number 1,
it's virtually all
small batch, and you have a few of
these big, you know, beer brewing companies making
alcohol for beer, But otherwise, they're all, like,
startup up companies, you know, starting out doing
this stuff, like, in their basement usually, and
then they ramp up from there. So small
batch, it's usually,
nicely, you know, high quality, fresh ingredients,
then a lot of times are even, like,
dis instill, you know, herbs and things like
that themselves. Mh.
And so, all of that, and then they
are they're nicely packaged and, you know, all
all that as to the cost.
For us, I mean, I I didn't... We
haven't gone into this I don't know if
you care to, but I had virtually no
experience in the
restaurant business when I started to awake. And
so it wasn't until we were starting to
go down the path but I started getting
a spreadsheet and looking at the input cost
and looking at the labor and looking at
what we would need to charge
for these things to try it to break
even. And I was pretty
I popping. And III was not proud to
be selling cocktails under 14 dollars. Yeah. I
mean, that was not what, you know, part
of my vision for what this place would
be like. But that... For some of the
ingredients that was necessary. Yeah. Have kind of
the the basic margin that a, you know,
a bar that can survive would have.
So that was... You know, yeah. And I...
You know, hopefully, that will evolve... The market's
definitely getting more,
you know,
diverse and competitive of and so that theoretically
should bring down prices over time.
But I... Like you said, it's it's in
many in some cases, wine particular beer, Like,
you start with the same process the alcohol
based product goes through, and then you add
this additional sometimes very sophisticated process of pulling
the callback back out. So some... A lot
of people and we got a lot of
feedback about this and a lot you can
tell them maybe you still start from some
of these Google reviews they're like, you know,
people are like Wtf f. Like, I paying
15 bucks and you've taken out the active
ingredient, You know, what is going on here?
And I I understand that, that it it
is where the market's is at right now.
Well, some of us can remember what the
alternative was. It was those 4 terrible tasting
the, you know, bland options. So...
Process of making them taste like you intend
to make them taste is is is not
easy. That's for sure. Yeah. You
you mentioned
2
companies by name that I'm glad you did
because
from my limited knowledge, they are leaders in
the non alcoholic beer category and that's the
He 0 0 and athletic brewing. Mh.
For me, He is a more obvious
you know, case for the business model. Right?
They are already 1 of the world's largest
breweries, and they can easily go down this
path, and they don't have to make money
for file, and they can mh take chances
of the I can't and see how it
goes. And I, but, yeah, I don't wanna
just dispatch In, I give them a ton
of credit their
advertising in f 1 in there... And Mh.
All over Europe and all over American. I
I think their leadership is really valuable not
only He, but to the whole the whole
non alcoholic category. Mh.
Athletic is a really interesting
you know, story that's different. Right? They're are
they also... I mean, they're not as big
as He as an overall brewing company, But
in the non alcoholic category, or are they
as big as they seem to be to
me? Yeah. I believe so. I mean, they
they... I think they're the the the biggest
most popular, you know, kind of micro root,
alcohol free, beer out there And
know, in terms of just, like they're kinda
the their valuation and the growth that they've
had... Their there seem to be way ahead
of the other
alcohol free only beer brands out there.
And I I actually, knew a friend of
1 of the founders there, and they've just,
you know, we have... We worked very closely
with them when I was at awake, always
super cool, super nice, you know, people.
So I'm just I'm very happy with the
success that they. I hope it continues, but
they clearly figured out a way to balance
this, like, you, kinda obviously, athletic, you know,
kind a wellness type of thing with the
alcohol free type of thing and
and very good tasting beverages at the end
of the day. You know? So
yeah, Love love that brand. Well, is there
is their growth... Is it, like,
did they put the cart in front of
the horse? Like, did they say we're gonna
be this big thing and hope it itself
did they have big investment capital or did
it just grow like gang? Yeah. I think
it's a little bit of all of the
above? I mean, they... When we were starting
and awake, they were already pretty far along
in terms of getting a couple rounds of
funding. And, we're clearly
a very professional
outfit.
And I'm not saying, you know, like, a
a little bit ahead of the game. Yeah.
In that regard.
And then, you know, I remember seen I'd
do like, Triathlon, and they would have a
tent. You know? And they said they just
they they they knew what their market was
Yeah. And they really pinpoint it very well.
And it's now it's, you know, it's everywhere.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's great. I wish them all the
best, and they have a delicious product. I
can attest to that as well.
There are
generational trends
that make the news that people talk about...
They talk about millennials and Gen z,
they're not having sex, like we... Gen Ers
did. They're not drinking, like we... Gen Ers
did.
What do you have any theory on that?
Like, is... Because because they're 1 of the...
I mean, that those generations are 1 of
the driving forces in non alcohol beverages shaking
off. Right? Yeah. Yes. Well, so my daughter's
17, and I don't know. I... I don't
know if stop my head what generation she's
a part of. I can I can say?
So she's on kind of the. I mean,
you know, the kind of the 20 somethings
things, let's say right now. Right. And
so I see a lot of this through
her eyes and also some of the some
of the employees I have in my health
policy firm, etcetera. And I... You know, I
think at the heart of it for 1
thing, is that they see
a world that is a horrific mess. Mh
and they, you know, are realizing that it's
now on their shoulders if they wanna have
a better future to do something about it
and that things like alcohol, I would say
also the things like oppression and, you know,
racism and sexism are just are getting in
the... Or so obviously, from their eyes getting
in the way.
Just a happier, healthier,
more fulfilling life that, you know, I don't
know. I think we we lived through history
as, like, you, through a a key whole
you don't really kinda see what you're doing
at the time. Yeah. What I mean? So
we... Like you just say, we grew up
with, like, you know, it was kind of
expected that we were drink lot and and,
you know, to some degree, I was just
speaking for myself, it was expected that I'd
be a little bit sexist. And... You know,
I mean, grove in the south It's like
that was just
That nothing, you know, my parents raised me
well and everything, but just I was in
this mil you that, like, that's kinda what
a white guy was supposed to be
And, you know, now it's like, well, of
course, freaking not. You know, and, of course,
people can make these, you know, be this
way in their lifestyle and of course, people
or, you know, we come from all different
places under diverse and, like, you know, that's
that's part of a healthy and happy society,
whereas I for us. I feel like that
wasn't the default assumption. At least I would,
you know, kind of as
in the world that I grew up in.
So,
I think they're kinda like, this this has
gotta stop and and alcohol is just gonna
get in our way. Yeah. So they might
not... So that that'll be interesting to see
where this goes because they're not gonna have
the nostalgic piece that we talked about.
Non alcoholic beverage is gonna serve a different
purpose for And so the... They probably don't
want the 1 that tastes like gin. They
want the 1 that tastes delicious right off
the bat before you've die journey needed yourself
into something bad. Yeah. So I think it'll
be really, really interesting. Because there was out
through white claw. I just like, I'm unemployed
cons but we way. I came I went
to her saying a concert was like, white?
What is this? Like stuff? And now that
I think there's actually alcohol free version, which
you, why would anyone wanna drink that? I
have no idea like could come okay people
twice. All I wanna do is, like, go
to a huge liquor store after we leave
this podcast to, like, just brew just to
view all the options. Yeah. And not that
I have ever even tasted White claw, but
now an alcohol free White claw because I
mean, I'm disappointed that, like, Top chico now
has, you know, Oh, I know hard hard
so hard bubbly water, Like,
I just can't imagine. Oh, that frustrate me
too. You know? That was our that was
my high end bubbly water. Yeah. And this
Cheap ass over here I really wanted to
drop a few
Get that glass bomb I get that glass
I was boost for water.
Yeah. I think the whole white claw, that's
a discussion for another day, but don't you
think the Z folks are really pissed. Oh,
yeah
like, we just
We that
flat, rather un tasty.
That was... Yeah. That was in our holidays.
We had... Oh, we had to push a
lot of z back in the bar. Yeah.
Days. Yeah. Well,
push that Z. Gonna got 28 cases back
here and it's not moving.
When when I think about social I back
in my drinking days.
It's amazing to me how many things I
participated in,
where I pretended
the social I was for 1 purpose, but
really, I I was just there to drink.
Mh. Mh. Yeah. You know, everything was alcohol
centric. Oh, yeah. You wanna go play part
sure. I've never played. Sounds boring. They're gonna
me be there. I'm there. Let's go. You
know? Yeah. So
1 of my questions
about your experience at wake is
because all of my socializing was so alcohol
centric for a couple of decades of my
life.
If there isn't alcohol at a way like,
what what's the big thing that's taking center
stage? I know you tried a lot of
different things? Mh.
Is it the entertainment is that you mentioned
drag show.
Music? Is it food? Is it just the
Ambiance? What what draws people in? Yeah. We
had, you know, we had live music. We
did we did try lots of different things
to stimulate, you know,
some excitement around what was going on that
we had open mics. We had we had
poetry read maybe did some comedy nights.
You know, typical bars also to try different
things to get people to come in and
and, you know, get on the phone. Did
you ever try half pressure egg shots? Not
sure I have punched shots.
That'd be a little confusing when. Yeah. I
would.
Mix messing is forget a second. Was a
big chunk of our audience. Yeah.
But, you know, honestly, I think the thing
that people really wanted was... And this this
was where it all started. Was they wanted
to sit down with another person or a
group of friends in have a conversation. They
would remember and that, you know, that represented
the best of themselves, Mh not the the
water down glazed over alcohol, you know, fuel
version of themselves. And so, you know, that
that was the most beautiful thing. And people
would come... And I, you know,
share about their experiences, you know, with us
there. And it was that was all it
was. It's something simple. You know, it's...
This is something I've been working a lot
on recently in my life. It's, like,
usually, I think it's not... Something doesn't need
to be at it. Something needs to be
taken away. Mh, you know, kind we dis
if we can dis our lives and take
away the haze and the things that think
we need, we find that what we actually
want is right there. Mh. You know, in
front of us. And that at way at
its best moments. Yes, maybe there's was some
music playing the background. You know, we loved
all... We have Dj We all have different
kinds of things, and it was a lot
of fun.
But people just... I think wanted to have
connection with other people. And
it's amazing.
Alcohol is often
described as a truth serum,
but
my experience is socializing with alcohol.
Were that
people talked and didn't listen. Mh. After the
second or third round, the volume increased. And
and the story started repeating.
And so it was the opposite of a
serum for truth. Sure. You know, you're drink
enough, and you is let's loosen up and.
But but that connection that you described, he's
elusive with alcohol whereas, if you're in an
environment, like we discussed earlier where you feel
safe here with people you alike and you've...
And the Ambiance is comfortable. And like you
said, background music. I think that lends to
authentic a conversation that is otherwise, just kinda
missing in our culture. Yeah. I mean, I
hope that's something you're really proud of that
you created a space that
that. Thank you. I do. I I really
appreciate that. I mean, I think many of
at least the 3 of us have now
been to wedding and other situations where people
are drinking a lot. And this is not...
Look, I was there. We were... Sure, you
know, I I was there a thousand fold.
So this is not a judgment.
But,
Yeah. Those conversations are not quite as interesting
as they seemed back when I was when
I was drinking. So a new perspective on
that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
The... I have a question about the business
model. Mh. So you were in my mind.
Correct me if I'm wrong. You are kind
of 3 things. You were a coffee house,
your bar...
Non alcoholic bar and your bottle shop. Mh.
It was just pointed out to me this
last week. I was having a discussion with
our shout sobriety group about non alcoholic beverages.
And somebody said, you know, I think the
bottle shop concept unless it is part of
a liquor store that's also selling alcohol. Mh
I think that's almost impossible
and and the the
alcohol free bar as a stand is very
difficult also. Mh. Whereas,
what you see a lot of now. Mh.
Is full service restaurants that have a full
service alcohol menu that also,
instead of just having soda water. Mh. They've
got 4 or 5 mock tails and 3
or 4 non alcoholic beers and wines. Yeah.
Is Is that is that the key to
success when it's just rolled into a wider
product line as opposed to where the standalone
thing, you can only get this thing here.
You're saying? I do. I do.
So I think that's probably the case. And
so I I do think that
bars that, you know, or otherwise succeeding and
can have robust alcohol free menu, you know,
are gonna be the most likely to go
to that. And, you know, there's somebody people
and there's other restaurants in town that I
really wanna give a shout out to for
having very interesting sophisticated alcohol menus
because that's that's probably gonna reach the most,
you know, people.
I do... You know, so III thought about
this a whole lot. Right. And and when
we were doing awake, the alcohol free bottle
shops were actually what was really taking off.
Really in getting some investment
in terms of kinda on the consumer of
the equation, not the product side, but in
terms of the different facets of our business,
that was the 1. And I really admired
the simplicity of that model was I was
dealing with the complex of our 3 threefold
model that included of our restaurant.
But now, I see that some of those
companies
that appear to be thriving at the time
we're now closing. And so I... I'm not
sure how much runway there is for the
alcohol free only bottle shop
model. III do think that the awake model
could work. And part part of the reason
we did it the way we did was
we owned the space and so we we
were paying for it all the time. So
we wanted to offer
potentially money generating things from going on all
the time. So that's where we had the
coffee in the morning basically in the alcohol
free bar in the afternoon,
I think with a... You know, somebody with
better expertise in the bar restaurant business,
I e some where I had none.
And also, you know,
the the time, so the the lifestyle of
of a alcohol free bar owner is the
same as a regular bar owner. Meaning nights
at the weekends, and I have a family,
and I have other things going on in
my life. And so I simply just couldn't
be there enough to make it work. And
other other variables, you know,
I think, obviously, that they could have gone
differently. So I wouldn't give up on that
model, but it's... You really gotta stick every
single landing on every single have to jump
if it's gonna survive. And and, you know,
somebody else might be able to do that,
but not me. When you go to a
restaurant,
not that isn't, you know, solely alcohol, non
all la restaurant. Mh.
Do you flip to that that menu that
part of the menu and see what they're
offering are? Absolutely.
Absolutely. And it and and can you make
any correlation between... This is a great restaurant
and they seem to be driving and oh,
by the way, they're paying attention to this
this segment of the clients I think so.
I... You know, and there's, like, in in
Dc where I go a lot. There's there's
a couple of really good, like Hamilton comes
to mind as a restaurant I went and
I was like wow. They have a really...
That's a great, you know, place. And doing
well and they have a great alcohol menu.
And then other places it isn't this is
a broader,
again,
I don't wanna... Anybody who trying to do
anything, you know, that is
supporting alcohol freedom. I'm all for it. It
is disappointing, personally speaking to go to the
alcohol free section of a menu, and it
is Shirley Temple, orange Juice, club soda, You
know, And it's it's just... They've clearly haven't
actually invested any thought. Yeah. Get into what
they're offering people. And so...
And III do love club Club soda. But
I I also... I to me, the the
part about that that is the most for
frustrating, and we dealt with this when we
opened a wake is we said we had
alcohol free products, and they said, okay. It's
gonna be high sugar, you know, juice for,
you know,
and it it it it it's not... It
doesn't have to be It can be actually
be healthy, you know, relatively low sugar.
Beverages if they put some thought into how
they're crafted. Mh.
Yeah. Because those... There are some canned mock
tails that are really high sugar that we've
had. Yeah. At family gatherings before. Yeah. And
the kids drank I'm gonna like, oh, my
god. That's worse than soda.
Yeah. Because you were like, I'm not touching
them. Yeah.
Well, high too. Like club So. Yeah.
But I love it with a... I love
it when it's fan up too though. Yeah.
Yeah. I just think it's it's such an
opportunity. I mean, if you've got 8 people
going out to dinner together. Mh. In in
today's world, the likelihood that 1 of the
8 is alcohol free, relatively high. Like, we're
we're... Mh. We're getting to a point where
that's normal No shame. Yeah. There's no shame.
And I why you choose to do. That's
right. And if you don't have something on
your menu to cater to person, I just
think it's a huge lost opportunity. Totally. My
opinion doesn't come. It did when I was
newly sober came from a place of anger
and frustration and being left out. Mh. And
now it's more what are you doing dude
like? Yeah. Pay. 8 bucks 10 bucks for
a nice piece. All free drink and you're...
Now Gonna get, you know, free or 2
dollar club soda instead because you don't have
anything for me. That's right. That's right.
Okay. So
here... So I'm I'm all upside on everything
we've talked about. Here's where I get confused.
Mh. And I do still get a little
bit frustrated and the
alcohol free
market. Mh.
Includes... And I don't even know if I'm
using these terms. Right? But
there is an emerging market for beverages with
adapt antigens in them. Mh things with big
words like
Uganda,
and Rei mushrooms.
And, of course, the ones that we we
know a little bit about Thc and Cbd.
You see mushroom oil in our fridge We
do? Is it good? It's good Inflammation. No.
No. You. But joey I do. Okay. Good.
From. Should should. So should they be eating
there? No.
So
these things that are popping up in
in
alcohol free beverages?
Are they... Should they be a concern?
Is it case by case. Like, what are
we looking at? Yeah. Well, so I... For
for me, alright. All of this is just
my perspective. I mean, number 1, I think
Thc is a little different because it's clearly
psycho active, You know, And I'm,
I don't personally choose to use. I don't
have judgment for those who do. But I
I... For me, it is it is ind
into.
And and, you know, I wouldn't drive on
it, and of course, all that kind of
stuff. The other things, I think it's it's,
you know, some seem to have some physiological.
I have
drank drinks with Cbd, and sometimes I've even
added Cbd to drinks and I think I
feel a relaxing kind of feeling. Doesn't seem
to mess with my mind much, and That
that I think is kind of the consensus
of of its properties.
So I'm I'm kind of okay with that,
and and the other thing you mentioned, I
I... For me, the issue is
is not so much good or bad. It's...
What's effective and what's just being kind of
marketed as effective. And and and, you know,
and my wife and I have lots of
discussions about this, and she's has medical training.
And, you know, the the sort of traditional
viewers, like, well, if, you know, it's gone
through clinical trials and as Fda approved, then
it's effective and if it hasn't then basically,
it's not you know, but then you go
and you look at the history of a
lot of these, you know, trials and and
a lot of them are sponsored by, you
know, gazillion dollar companies and it's like, how
much can we really that, and there's a
lot that's wrong with the western medical model.
We won't go into all of that. So
so just because something doesn't fit the criteria
of the traditional western model does not mean
that it's not a active. And so that
to me is the big question with those,
you know, additives and other substances,
especially if they're if they're not of into
or, you know, kind messing with your your
brain in a in a in an obvious
way. You know, are they really just kind
of a trend in some of probably are
or are they actually
potentially healthy for you? And I think some
of them probably are that as well. And
if if they are, then then I'm totally,
you know, for it. Yeah. The the concern
that I have
is
part of my sobriety,
a huge part of my recovery has been
understanding what the underlying issues were. Mh. That
caused me to drink medicinal. That caused me
to choose alcohol as my m adaptive coping
mechanism. Yeah. And there things like, you know,
stress and
self inflicted
expectations. I would I I've talked a lot
on the podcast about how, you know, I
would set these goals for myself. And if
you... I stepped away and looked at them
objectively.
There was nothing to them. Like, Mh I
would set time parameters. I have to get
this done by this time. I wasn't gonna
make more money. I would gonna get a
gold star in the refrigerator, like, there was
nothing to my goal, but then I would
drive myself, like, held toward that goal. Mh.
And then I need to come down from
that, so I would self medicate with alcohol.
And for me, that was the biggest
of the
you know, underlying issues. Certainly once I had
it had drink long enough, I started have
problem anxiety and depression.
And I would drink to medicate those not
understanding that they were all... That the alcohol
was also the cause of the anxiety and
depression that's a a long road that many
of us go on before we figure that
out. So when I 1 watch Instagram videos
and someone's trying this new beverage that's got
whatever 1 of these things in it. Mh.
And they say, I do feel more relaxed.
You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna have this
after work. Mh. My concern is,
isn't that just another form of self medication,
and are we just hopeful
that it's not as strong and dead Leah
alcohol. And and I know I'm... You've already
semi answered the question. I just wonder if
you would respond to my Yeah. Concern. Yeah.
I hear your concern. And so so I
a couple. I mean number 1 is that
I I believe. So I I'm a Zen
buddhist, and that... That actually is a big
part of the reason that I drinking and
part of that path and exploring
different,
principles and ethics in in that, you know,
tricky vision,
also, very into mindfulness
meditation and,
believe in the power of mindfulness to heal,
including heal myself. So
I,
a big reason that I quit drinking alcohol
was because I felt like it was getting
in the way of me seeing my self
and my problems and my, you know,
issues
for what they were as clearly as I
could and I I wanted to be with
my life, you know, as unfiltered as possible.
And I wanted to,
you know, address and reconcile with my challenges
and in my relationships,
know, as as directly in an unfiltered in
in, you know, real and authentic and true
way as I possibly could. No question alcohol
was in the way of that.
You know, whether or not other things are
in the way of that I think tend
to get a little more subjective and comes
down to personal choice. And comfort level. And
so... And 111 way that I look at
it, which is you didn't ask directly, but
but as part of how I think about
this question.
Is that some some people I see say,
well, what was designated
as you know, part of Richard Nixon were
on drugs in 19 7 too is all
the same to me as alcohol. Right? And
and everything that wasn't is okay. Mh. Including,
like, cigarettes. Mh. And coffee.
And so that's 1 way to draw a
line between what we think is, you know,
helping us be clear minded about things in
what isn't.
I think the the the truth of what
is actually, you know,
cloud our minds and what isn't is is
much more ambiguous and subjective.
And worthy of, you know, some some,
investigation, you know, and not just buying into
what the kind of prevailing paradigm is at
the time. So
again, for me, the decision about a substance
is, okay. Well, if I find... And and
it's our to know. So I'm not necessarily
getting it right even for myself. But if
I find something is
you know, getting in between me and the
reality of my life and the reality of
my emotional problems and the difficulties in my
relationships and my ability to be a present
parent
you know, then I don't wanna do that
thing. If I could figure out that's what
it's doing.
Things that don't do that and might actually
help me,
be present, be calm, be, you know,
authentic in the moment with my problems with
the people I interact with, then I... You
know, I'm open to trying those things. If
that's,
what they're pointing to. So... But again,
even I figuring out what that is for
me is imperfect. So I'm not gonna figure
what that is for other people. You know,
they're gonna have to figure it out for
themselves. Well, and I think to a great
extent it would be helpful if
peep... If we all stopped relying on the
government to figure that out for us. Mh.
Like, you you pointed out, there seems to
be this line drawn and these substances are
bad, and these are good. I had had
a really
interesting conversation just earlier this week with someone
who has had a really bad experience with
Cra. Mh. Which is something I didn't know
a lot about, but I've run into enough
people that have have had this experience, but
this is something you can buy in gas
stations. I... Yeah. It's a team.
Yeah. And and I've had enough number of
people tell me, you know, what a kind
of a train wreck made out of their
relationships and Mh. And they're... And and it's
tear difficult to get off of, I guess.
It's Yeah. It it may not have the
same physical withdrawals as alcohol does, but it's
just very very difficult to quit. And so
I think a focus on, what's the problem
that we're using the substance to try to
solve, and is there a different way to
solve it without the substance, Mh. Much of
what you're talking about
with your your your practice and your ability
to, you know, analyze your relationships and your
own well b seeing. I think that's the
key. I think any anytime I watch an
Instagram video, and I see some, oh, I
do feel calm, and I think well I
gotta jump on that.
That just scares me personally? Like, what's making
me not calm? Like, can we address that
as opposed to
what what thing can I lay down my
credit card to make that the lack of
calm go away?
So I think the looking
inside is is big.
Bill, you mentioned that you're and buddhist.
You have a really exciting project that you've
been working on for some time now. You
have a book that's being published.
This coming March, March of 20 25
called the empty path.
Tell us about it. Thank you. So well,
the the Id actually started right around the
time I was closing awake,
and
1 thing that I realized at that time
was that
in my quest for, you know, fulfill and
peace in my life. I was constantly adding
more things, more practices, more ideas, more
you know, going to places and and more
activity in the form of awake. And I
truly don't regret or doing awake. It was
really a wonderful
all told.
But it was, you know, a I thing
that I simply added on to every other
current thing that was going on in my
life. And I I found that, you know,
maybe it was time to take a different
approach into to
lessen the things in my life and try
to sort of pair back,
know, these things that I told myself. I
needed to find out what was... What's left
kind of underneath. And so the empty path
is is the the sub title is finding
fulfillment through the radical art of lessen. Mh
And so it's taking
a look at mindfulness practices and a little
bit of boot is teaching, but, you know,
explained in a, a way that hopefully, you
know, you don't need to background in buddhism,
are certainly to be a buddhist to understand.
And then applying that to different aspects of
our life, like, our work and our family
and our
emotional challenges, and I do talk about my
experience with alcohol and and certainly about, you
know, my experience with wake,
through it. So there's an inter reading of
in an effort to make this a very
practical
application of some of these ideas that might
feel a little bit esoteric at first.
That's great. I'm super excited to read it.
I think it's fascinating meeting that
more and more of the people that we
meet that are seeking an alcohol free lifestyle
are doing so because they've fall and victim
to what I think is being called now
hustle culture. Right? Mh. This idea of more
and more and more. And if nobody else
is driving me. I'll just drive myself to
the to the brink of a mental breakdown.
And so,
I think that message is very timely, and
we're very excited to have you on and
be able to do our little part to
promote the book. We will put a link
in the show notes
to billy dot com where you've got,
the initial kind of announcement about the book
and where as goes on, people will be
able to find more and figure out when
it's time to to get on the pre
order in the order list. Right? That's right.
Yep. That'll be the the weird place to
get that and a little bit about the
meditation teaching that I'm doing now and some
other things that have going on, folks will
find there as well. That's great. The empty
path, the publisher is new world library we're
excited for March of 20 25.
Billy, thank you so much for coming on
the podcast. I think your your experience
as happens to us once we reach, you
know, the,
the middle age that we've already used. But
the experience starts to pile up. And when
we do something meaningful with those experiences, and
we have insights to share. You are just...
You're a blessing to Sherry and I as
a friend, but you're a blessing to our
community, not just in Denver, but in a
much broader sense, and we hope you keep
sharing what you're learning with the world. Thanks
for being here, Billy. Thank you, matt. Thank
you Sharing your support and friendship. Means a
lot to me too. Glad it be on.
Before you go, we hope you'll consider these
3 resources.
If you love or loved an alcoholic, we
offer support and connection in our of recovery
group. Check us out at echoes of recovery
dot org. If you are a high functioning
alcoholic like seeking meth fits and connection in
early sobriety.
We're ready for you at shout sobriety dot
org. No matter who you are, something for
you in our book. Sober revolution, evolve into
sobriety and recover your alcoholic marriage. Go to
sober revolution dot org. For my wife Sherry
Sal, I'm Matt Sal. Thanks for listening to
the intoxicated podcast.
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