1 00:00:11,595 --> 00:00:13,500 Welcome everyone to 2 guys to the Dark 2 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,644 tower king. A podcast or red discuss the 3 00:00:15,644 --> 00:00:18,626 characters and connections. In the ever expanding universe 4 00:00:18,765 --> 00:00:21,078 that revolves around Stephen King's dark tower. 5 00:00:21,717 --> 00:00:23,472 I'm Jay Russo, and I'm Sean 6 00:00:24,350 --> 00:00:26,274 In You can email us at 2 guys 7 00:00:26,274 --> 00:00:27,865 dark tower at gmail dot com. 8 00:00:28,581 --> 00:00:30,569 Thank you to our patrons for your continued 9 00:00:30,569 --> 00:00:31,206 support of the show. 10 00:00:31,937 --> 00:00:34,803 In this bonus episode, we'll discuss Stephen King 11 00:00:34,803 --> 00:00:37,590 short story, Known, found in skeleton crew. 12 00:00:38,546 --> 00:00:39,501 Let's start the show. 13 00:00:40,390 --> 00:00:42,454 A man is in prison, recount the events 14 00:00:42,454 --> 00:00:44,517 that brought him there, which are centered around 15 00:00:44,517 --> 00:00:45,945 a young woman named Non. 16 00:00:46,660 --> 00:00:48,247 After a fight outside a diner, 17 00:00:48,739 --> 00:00:51,286 the unnamed man and Non, hitch he and 18 00:00:51,286 --> 00:00:52,264 killed more people 19 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,255 before she leads him to a graveyard 20 00:00:54,870 --> 00:00:56,701 where he makes a terrifying discovery. 21 00:00:57,754 --> 00:01:00,875 Jade, this story as you mentioned was published 22 00:01:00,875 --> 00:01:03,754 in Stephen King's Sk crew, collection of short 23 00:01:03,754 --> 00:01:05,594 stories in 19 85, but it was first 24 00:01:05,594 --> 00:01:09,115 published in 19 78 in a collection called 25 00:01:09,115 --> 00:01:09,615 shadows. 26 00:01:11,184 --> 00:01:14,304 But to me, this very much felt like 27 00:01:14,304 --> 00:01:16,621 a story of the late sixties and early 28 00:01:16,621 --> 00:01:17,100 seventies. 29 00:01:17,659 --> 00:01:19,177 There was a lot of reference to the 30 00:01:19,177 --> 00:01:20,077 counter culture 31 00:01:20,775 --> 00:01:23,268 and hippie and the look and feel of 32 00:01:23,268 --> 00:01:25,905 our our unnamed narrator who has long hair 33 00:01:25,905 --> 00:01:28,782 and that's what sort of pre the events 34 00:01:28,782 --> 00:01:30,780 in the diner that that starts this whole 35 00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:33,183 story off. Because it's a bunch of truckers 36 00:01:33,183 --> 00:01:35,967 who are picking on the long hair fancy 37 00:01:35,967 --> 00:01:37,820 looking dude who looks sort of like Jesus 38 00:01:38,527 --> 00:01:40,535 And we got a number of references 39 00:01:40,988 --> 00:01:41,464 around that, 40 00:01:42,416 --> 00:01:45,194 Merle H O from Musk sk, which is 41 00:01:45,194 --> 00:01:45,694 a 42 00:01:46,083 --> 00:01:48,234 song that was recorded in 19 69. 43 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:51,500 At 1 point, they mentioned that a character 44 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:53,172 smelled of engine oil and looked like something 45 00:01:53,172 --> 00:01:54,606 out of a Steve Did code drawing, 46 00:01:55,179 --> 00:01:57,013 and Steve Did was a c creator of 47 00:01:57,093 --> 00:01:58,210 Spider Man used the artist, 48 00:01:58,768 --> 00:02:01,001 and he had a very unique angular look, 49 00:02:02,038 --> 00:02:03,554 and was very famous in the sixties for 50 00:02:03,713 --> 00:02:05,724 Spider Man and Doctor Strange, By the time, 51 00:02:06,045 --> 00:02:07,965 the mid late seventies came around. He was 52 00:02:07,965 --> 00:02:10,764 not doing very much mainstream popular work. He 53 00:02:10,764 --> 00:02:12,284 was still doing some work for Dc, but 54 00:02:12,284 --> 00:02:14,377 it wasn't any of the main characters. And 55 00:02:14,377 --> 00:02:15,968 so the seventies are somewhat of a down 56 00:02:15,968 --> 00:02:18,194 period for Did code, but that really feels 57 00:02:18,194 --> 00:02:20,819 like a sixties reference to me. So those 58 00:02:20,819 --> 00:02:23,544 references combined with this... Whole idea of the 59 00:02:23,544 --> 00:02:25,944 counter culture sort of being rebelled against by 60 00:02:25,944 --> 00:02:27,405 this unnamed character 61 00:02:27,864 --> 00:02:29,625 sort of sets this for me in the 62 00:02:29,625 --> 00:02:31,638 late sixties and early seventies and we'll get 63 00:02:31,638 --> 00:02:33,392 to even further the parts in 64 00:02:34,269 --> 00:02:36,422 Relations, which, again, was also in the late 65 00:02:36,422 --> 00:02:39,451 sixties. It gives the narrator yet 1 more 66 00:02:39,451 --> 00:02:41,463 thing. Or 1 more reason for him to 67 00:02:41,463 --> 00:02:43,461 feel like an outsider. Yeah. Through the course 68 00:02:43,461 --> 00:02:45,859 of the story, he continues to run up 69 00:02:45,859 --> 00:02:48,416 against, like brick walls of culture where he 70 00:02:48,416 --> 00:02:50,907 feels like he doesn't fit in. But this 71 00:02:50,907 --> 00:02:53,222 is kind of foundational to him at least 72 00:02:53,222 --> 00:02:55,456 in his young adulthood. By the time he 73 00:02:55,456 --> 00:02:57,451 reaches college age and spend some time at 74 00:02:57,451 --> 00:02:57,951 university, 75 00:02:58,503 --> 00:02:59,772 he realizes that 76 00:03:00,247 --> 00:03:01,516 there are a lot of people in the 77 00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:04,212 world who don't like him simply because of 78 00:03:04,212 --> 00:03:05,798 who he is or what he looks like 79 00:03:05,798 --> 00:03:09,169 or what he might represent and and that 80 00:03:09,169 --> 00:03:11,590 probably does a lot to feed into his 81 00:03:11,889 --> 00:03:12,789 feelings of 82 00:03:13,330 --> 00:03:15,569 isolation, and that's something that he struggles with 83 00:03:15,569 --> 00:03:16,025 and 84 00:03:16,465 --> 00:03:17,824 A lot of the things that happened in 85 00:03:17,824 --> 00:03:18,564 the story 86 00:03:18,944 --> 00:03:20,405 seem like an 87 00:03:20,784 --> 00:03:23,584 unhealthy reaction to all of those feelings. 88 00:03:24,078 --> 00:03:25,984 Yeah. And we'll talk more about some of 89 00:03:25,984 --> 00:03:27,414 the other things that might motivate him to 90 00:03:27,414 --> 00:03:29,479 take some of those actions, but I think 91 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:32,433 being part of the counter culture and the 92 00:03:32,433 --> 00:03:33,867 feelings of being an outsider, 93 00:03:34,903 --> 00:03:36,496 I think is a big part of who 94 00:03:36,496 --> 00:03:38,408 he is. Yeah. And if you look at 95 00:03:38,408 --> 00:03:38,908 the 96 00:03:39,443 --> 00:03:41,196 antagonist to our narrator, 97 00:03:41,848 --> 00:03:44,079 there's the the truckers in the diner, 98 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:46,230 who definitely don't like them because of how 99 00:03:46,230 --> 00:03:46,628 he looks. 100 00:03:47,664 --> 00:03:49,575 There's the rich guy that he ends up 101 00:03:49,575 --> 00:03:52,062 killing who seems like a a straight job 102 00:03:52,062 --> 00:03:55,277 businessman who's hoping to take advantage of the 103 00:03:55,495 --> 00:03:57,432 young good looking lady to maybe 104 00:03:57,810 --> 00:03:59,646 get a little bit of a side piece 105 00:03:59,646 --> 00:04:01,653 from his wife, and then there's the cop 106 00:04:01,653 --> 00:04:03,267 that they murder. So all of these 107 00:04:03,722 --> 00:04:06,903 characters could represent the mainstream culture in some 108 00:04:06,903 --> 00:04:09,698 way that... He's rebelling against, and it just 109 00:04:09,698 --> 00:04:11,047 so happens that they're the ones who get 110 00:04:11,047 --> 00:04:14,142 killed along the way. And even the construction 111 00:04:14,142 --> 00:04:17,108 workers who are... There to fix a downed 112 00:04:17,108 --> 00:04:19,185 power line or something. Right? Like, 113 00:04:19,905 --> 00:04:21,343 in a way, you could say, like, they're 114 00:04:21,343 --> 00:04:24,140 fixing a city utility. Right? They're part of 115 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:27,047 the machine. Right the counter culture 116 00:04:27,422 --> 00:04:29,571 thinks is the source of all problems in 117 00:04:29,571 --> 00:04:32,777 society. So, yeah, like, everybody he encounters, including 118 00:04:32,834 --> 00:04:35,078 his jail, we assume are all part of 119 00:04:35,078 --> 00:04:37,232 that. Right? Keeping the man down. 120 00:04:37,870 --> 00:04:40,582 Mh. Yeah. There's a nice line that you 121 00:04:40,582 --> 00:04:43,214 could probably relate to this somewhat. III called 122 00:04:43,214 --> 00:04:45,383 it out at first because of how king 123 00:04:45,383 --> 00:04:47,218 writes it. Good looks are cheap in a 124 00:04:47,218 --> 00:04:49,453 wealthy country, And that gives that same sort 125 00:04:49,453 --> 00:04:51,688 of sense as well. Right? That when you're 126 00:04:51,688 --> 00:04:52,965 a country that has everything, 127 00:04:53,539 --> 00:04:55,217 you even have good looks, and that's something 128 00:04:55,217 --> 00:04:57,773 that people fight for other places, but here 129 00:04:57,773 --> 00:04:58,572 it just comes easy. 130 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:00,510 So 131 00:05:00,823 --> 00:05:02,178 Having said all that, Jay. 132 00:05:02,815 --> 00:05:05,365 Yep. I think it's good that maybe we 133 00:05:05,365 --> 00:05:07,597 should question a little bit our narrator though. 134 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:10,736 Right? Yes. Is he the most reliable storyteller 135 00:05:10,872 --> 00:05:11,031 here? 136 00:05:11,985 --> 00:05:14,529 Absolutely not. I... And I think if we 137 00:05:14,529 --> 00:05:16,993 are going to be astute readers of this 138 00:05:16,993 --> 00:05:17,232 story? 139 00:05:17,803 --> 00:05:19,788 We need to call on to question every 140 00:05:19,788 --> 00:05:22,726 single thing he tells us. Yes. From the 141 00:05:22,726 --> 00:05:24,394 fact that he's in jail, who knows if 142 00:05:24,394 --> 00:05:26,479 he's really even in jail, to the very 143 00:05:26,479 --> 00:05:28,317 end when he says he's going to commit 144 00:05:28,317 --> 00:05:30,874 suicide. Does he really intend to and does 145 00:05:30,874 --> 00:05:33,111 he do it. Right. And everything that happens 146 00:05:33,111 --> 00:05:35,756 in between those 2 moments it's entirely possible 147 00:05:35,756 --> 00:05:37,822 that this is either simply a work of 148 00:05:37,822 --> 00:05:42,032 fiction or the raving of someone who has 149 00:05:42,032 --> 00:05:44,018 descended into some kind of madness end. 150 00:05:44,748 --> 00:05:47,689 He either imagined all of this or did 151 00:05:47,689 --> 00:05:49,438 some of these things, but not for the 152 00:05:49,438 --> 00:05:52,220 reasons that he thinks he did. Right. Or 153 00:05:52,220 --> 00:05:53,572 not in the way that they happened. 154 00:05:54,143 --> 00:05:55,973 Yeah. With a woman who turns into a 155 00:05:55,973 --> 00:05:59,018 rat egg him on. Right. Yeah. So 156 00:05:59,472 --> 00:06:01,620 King sets this up by giving us multiple 157 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,909 frames to this... Story. So the narrator in 158 00:06:04,909 --> 00:06:06,829 prison in writing this down, and so we 159 00:06:06,829 --> 00:06:08,029 get that at the beginning and the end. 160 00:06:08,589 --> 00:06:11,169 And then the story moves into the secondary 161 00:06:11,229 --> 00:06:13,318 frame, which is I'm gonna tell you the 162 00:06:13,318 --> 00:06:14,829 events of what happened from the time I 163 00:06:14,829 --> 00:06:16,578 was hitch hiking in the diner to when 164 00:06:16,737 --> 00:06:19,043 I got arrested. But then even within that 165 00:06:19,043 --> 00:06:21,587 frame, there are the flashbacks to his college 166 00:06:21,587 --> 00:06:24,069 time, in his childhood. And every little piece 167 00:06:24,069 --> 00:06:26,058 of that as you said, has a little 168 00:06:26,058 --> 00:06:27,809 bit off to it potentially that we can 169 00:06:27,809 --> 00:06:30,673 start to question. Mh. And really sets this 170 00:06:30,673 --> 00:06:33,313 apart because What I found interesting is that 171 00:06:33,313 --> 00:06:34,666 there's a meta piece to this. 172 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,166 That when we encounter a Stephen King novel, 173 00:06:38,659 --> 00:06:40,514 we are expecting supernatural 174 00:06:41,290 --> 00:06:43,842 and unexpected things, things out of this world. 175 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,350 Yes. And so having just read Salem lot, 176 00:06:47,843 --> 00:06:49,674 hey, there's vampires in it, and I'm gonna 177 00:06:49,674 --> 00:06:51,823 take that as at face value. So when 178 00:06:51,902 --> 00:06:53,017 I pick up this story and I read 179 00:06:53,017 --> 00:06:55,379 it, and there's a woman who 180 00:06:55,817 --> 00:06:57,567 On a guy to murder people and then 181 00:06:57,567 --> 00:06:59,476 turns into a rat, that would it be 182 00:06:59,476 --> 00:07:01,306 totally unexpected in Stephen King book? 183 00:07:02,022 --> 00:07:03,392 Nope. By the end of this year you're 184 00:07:03,392 --> 00:07:05,229 like, wait a minute. Is that really what 185 00:07:05,229 --> 00:07:07,784 happened is known really we're at? Is she 186 00:07:07,784 --> 00:07:09,460 even there? Is she just a fig of 187 00:07:09,460 --> 00:07:11,696 his imagination? Is it something else that's going 188 00:07:11,696 --> 00:07:14,102 on? Yeah. She even seems to have almost 189 00:07:14,102 --> 00:07:15,456 a psychic connection to him. 190 00:07:16,173 --> 00:07:18,186 Because he seems to 191 00:07:18,722 --> 00:07:19,120 feel... 192 00:07:19,533 --> 00:07:22,551 Her encouraging him to take certain actions and 193 00:07:22,551 --> 00:07:24,004 even to feel certain ways 194 00:07:24,378 --> 00:07:25,752 that is never 195 00:07:26,363 --> 00:07:27,237 at least on the page, 196 00:07:27,808 --> 00:07:29,716 is, like she doesn't say these things out 197 00:07:29,716 --> 00:07:32,204 loud. Right. Basically, he's getting 198 00:07:32,817 --> 00:07:34,646 himself worked up. He goes into these fits 199 00:07:34,646 --> 00:07:35,385 of rage 200 00:07:36,650 --> 00:07:37,945 based on this 201 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:39,139 unspoken 202 00:07:39,514 --> 00:07:41,106 communication that happens between the 2 of them. 203 00:07:41,424 --> 00:07:44,129 Yeah. So again, even if Non was a 204 00:07:44,129 --> 00:07:44,948 real person 205 00:07:45,259 --> 00:07:46,857 and she was with him when these things 206 00:07:46,857 --> 00:07:47,257 happened. 207 00:07:47,736 --> 00:07:50,453 I still think that his motivations for doing 208 00:07:50,453 --> 00:07:53,900 them are probably not because she was making 209 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:55,652 him do it. Right. It was because he 210 00:07:55,652 --> 00:07:57,324 was... He would have done it anyway. Yep. 211 00:07:57,563 --> 00:07:59,315 Had he been alone. And especially when you 212 00:07:59,315 --> 00:08:00,430 look back at some of the events from 213 00:08:00,430 --> 00:08:02,832 his childhood too. Right? Yeah Like, he got 214 00:08:02,832 --> 00:08:04,342 into a fight a dance once before. 215 00:08:04,898 --> 00:08:07,600 And he is creepy in some ways that 216 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,840 people look at him weird, and his family 217 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,008 sort of mysteriously die in a fire that 218 00:08:12,223 --> 00:08:13,971 maybe can't totally be explained away. 219 00:08:14,845 --> 00:08:17,006 Mh. So it's not just... The character of 220 00:08:17,165 --> 00:08:19,314 Known who is doing things to him that 221 00:08:19,314 --> 00:08:21,304 he was already somewhat of a troubled boy 222 00:08:21,304 --> 00:08:23,771 to begin with. Yeah. And at the dance, 223 00:08:24,263 --> 00:08:26,647 he gets into this moment where all the 224 00:08:26,647 --> 00:08:29,134 men who are dancing start to have these 225 00:08:29,269 --> 00:08:33,014 horrific cartoon like mask, like, faces, and all 226 00:08:33,014 --> 00:08:34,916 of the women are revealed to be rats. 227 00:08:35,075 --> 00:08:37,372 Mh. Like these giant rat creatures. But in 228 00:08:37,372 --> 00:08:40,011 that moment, he can look at this clinically 229 00:08:40,011 --> 00:08:42,962 and say this is a hallucinations. It's not 230 00:08:42,962 --> 00:08:44,796 real and therefore, I have no reason to 231 00:08:44,796 --> 00:08:45,355 be terrified. 232 00:08:45,913 --> 00:08:47,987 But that's exactly what he sees with Non. 233 00:08:48,146 --> 00:08:50,877 Right? Like, No turns into a rat creature 234 00:08:50,877 --> 00:08:53,754 at the end of the story. And at 235 00:08:53,754 --> 00:08:54,733 that point, he's 236 00:08:55,192 --> 00:08:56,870 completely convinced that that's real. Yep. 237 00:08:57,602 --> 00:09:00,621 So is this just us witnessing his descent 238 00:09:00,621 --> 00:09:03,164 into madness? Is this he starts to see 239 00:09:03,164 --> 00:09:05,720 women as rat creatures? And now he sees 240 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,705 all women as rat creatures, and now he 241 00:09:07,705 --> 00:09:09,689 sees known as a rat creature, and for 242 00:09:09,689 --> 00:09:11,594 some reason that has come full circle for 243 00:09:11,594 --> 00:09:13,780 him, and it makes a kind of sense 244 00:09:13,918 --> 00:09:16,411 and because it's real to him now, or 245 00:09:16,948 --> 00:09:18,781 as you hinted that with your your meta 246 00:09:18,781 --> 00:09:19,281 commentary 247 00:09:19,738 --> 00:09:22,224 was she a rat creature because this is 248 00:09:22,224 --> 00:09:24,296 a Stephen King's story after all, and why 249 00:09:24,296 --> 00:09:26,209 wouldn't there be rat creatures in in a 250 00:09:26,369 --> 00:09:28,601 Stephen King's story? I think that's 1 of 251 00:09:28,601 --> 00:09:30,770 the most fun aspects of this story is 252 00:09:30,770 --> 00:09:33,881 that the unreliable narrator aspect of it can 253 00:09:33,881 --> 00:09:35,636 go in so many different directions. I think 254 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:39,155 you could make really viable arguments in almost 255 00:09:39,155 --> 00:09:41,941 any direction of any of these points gonna 256 00:09:41,941 --> 00:09:43,930 be satisfied with where you ended up and 257 00:09:43,930 --> 00:09:45,760 still enjoy the story. So it's great. 258 00:09:46,334 --> 00:09:48,414 Yeah. Because if I I'll note that there 259 00:09:48,414 --> 00:09:52,095 are, I think 8 or 9 dollar baby 260 00:09:52,095 --> 00:09:53,855 movies. We discussed the dollar babies on a 261 00:09:53,855 --> 00:09:54,735 previous episode. 262 00:09:55,389 --> 00:09:57,298 So people who had the opportunity to adapt 263 00:09:57,298 --> 00:09:58,890 short stories, and there's, like, 9 of these 264 00:09:58,890 --> 00:10:01,117 out there. Mh. And this seems like it 265 00:10:01,117 --> 00:10:03,981 be a fun story to adapt for film. 266 00:10:04,554 --> 00:10:06,549 Yeah. Because there's a lot of cool things 267 00:10:06,549 --> 00:10:09,421 happening. You know, there's car chases. There's, you 268 00:10:09,421 --> 00:10:11,256 know, fights, and then there's a rat creature 269 00:10:11,256 --> 00:10:11,735 at the end. 270 00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:14,310 And I would be interested to see how 271 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:16,230 the filmmakers deal with that and and frame 272 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:18,230 it. Because when you when you do it 273 00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:19,590 that way and when it's just not words 274 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:22,154 on paper. You do have this opportunity to 275 00:10:22,154 --> 00:10:24,541 start to do fun things with the unreliable 276 00:10:24,541 --> 00:10:27,246 narrator wear. Maybe you see things in a 277 00:10:27,246 --> 00:10:28,996 different light the 2 times it's presented, 278 00:10:29,408 --> 00:10:30,757 how he thinks about it. Does it... Is... 279 00:10:30,837 --> 00:10:32,027 Does it look different on film. And so 280 00:10:32,107 --> 00:10:33,456 I'd be interested to seeing some of those 281 00:10:33,456 --> 00:10:35,837 to see how they address that to see 282 00:10:35,837 --> 00:10:37,425 what side they come out if if the 283 00:10:37,425 --> 00:10:39,112 director makes it. Choice to do that. As 284 00:10:39,112 --> 00:10:40,628 a reader, we have our own choices we 285 00:10:40,628 --> 00:10:42,463 can sort of take it and say, alright. 286 00:10:42,702 --> 00:10:43,820 Where do you land at the end? Mh. 287 00:10:43,979 --> 00:10:45,096 Do you think it happened or do you 288 00:10:45,096 --> 00:10:47,418 think it didn't a So I'll ask you 289 00:10:47,418 --> 00:10:49,483 that question then. What do you think, Sean? 290 00:10:49,722 --> 00:10:51,231 Like, what's your opinion? Where do you come 291 00:10:51,231 --> 00:10:53,455 down on this? Was it a hallucinations or 292 00:10:53,455 --> 00:10:54,011 was it real? 293 00:10:54,664 --> 00:10:57,219 Was it Fight Club or was it American 294 00:10:57,219 --> 00:10:57,538 psycho? 295 00:10:58,097 --> 00:10:59,454 Yeah. I sort of think it's... 296 00:11:00,572 --> 00:11:02,727 I think it's more fight club that he's 297 00:11:02,727 --> 00:11:03,845 made up this in his head. 298 00:11:05,054 --> 00:11:06,804 You know, the second connection piece that you 299 00:11:06,804 --> 00:11:09,429 talked about where he hears things from this 300 00:11:09,429 --> 00:11:11,020 known creature that are making him do things, 301 00:11:11,353 --> 00:11:12,544 I think that's a lot of fight club, 302 00:11:12,623 --> 00:11:14,211 right? Where he's just turning it his in 303 00:11:14,211 --> 00:11:15,481 his own head and he's making it up. 304 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:16,140 So 305 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:19,133 having said that, I do know that King 306 00:11:19,133 --> 00:11:22,740 is often influenced. By P Lovecraft. And P 307 00:11:23,059 --> 00:11:25,059 Lovecraft has a famous story about the rats 308 00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:27,539 in the walls, I think. Yep. I think 309 00:11:27,539 --> 00:11:29,552 that's the title of it. Yeah. And You 310 00:11:29,552 --> 00:11:31,382 know, there actually are rats in the walls, 311 00:11:31,542 --> 00:11:34,167 and I wonder, you know what? There could 312 00:11:34,167 --> 00:11:35,679 still be a supernatural piece of this. 313 00:11:36,888 --> 00:11:38,477 But overall, if I were to take it 314 00:11:38,477 --> 00:11:40,011 at face value, I would take it as 315 00:11:40,147 --> 00:11:40,305 hallucinations. 316 00:11:41,021 --> 00:11:42,928 How about You j? I think I come 317 00:11:42,928 --> 00:11:44,121 down on the same side of it. 318 00:11:45,074 --> 00:11:47,552 There are... Too many points along the way 319 00:11:47,552 --> 00:11:50,515 here where he couldn't have continued on with 320 00:11:50,571 --> 00:11:52,795 nun at his side, unless she were a 321 00:11:52,795 --> 00:11:55,914 supernatural creature. Mh truly egg him on. And 322 00:11:55,914 --> 00:11:58,306 because I don't think anybody was egg him 323 00:11:58,306 --> 00:11:59,901 on. I don't think this guy needed any 324 00:11:59,901 --> 00:12:00,379 egg on. 325 00:12:01,177 --> 00:12:02,612 I just think he needed to reach a 326 00:12:02,612 --> 00:12:03,090 breaking point, 327 00:12:03,742 --> 00:12:05,890 and that happened when he got into the 328 00:12:05,890 --> 00:12:08,037 fight in the parking lot with the tough 329 00:12:08,037 --> 00:12:09,071 guy truck drivers. 330 00:12:09,708 --> 00:12:10,821 Having said that day, 331 00:12:12,109 --> 00:12:14,261 But having said that... Yeah. There's 1 thing 332 00:12:14,341 --> 00:12:15,935 I wanna point out, and you noticed it 333 00:12:15,935 --> 00:12:19,602 as well, Mh. Which is the businessman that 334 00:12:19,602 --> 00:12:22,084 he kills. Yeah. The only way that he 335 00:12:22,084 --> 00:12:24,550 meets him is because they're hitch hiking, and 336 00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:26,141 the guy pulls off to the side of 337 00:12:26,141 --> 00:12:27,986 the road to pick them up. And he 338 00:12:27,986 --> 00:12:30,451 says that when the businessman sees him, he's 339 00:12:30,451 --> 00:12:32,122 shocked because he was picking up a young 340 00:12:32,122 --> 00:12:34,111 woman. And then when this guy shows up. 341 00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:35,965 He's like, oh, I wasn't expecting to get 342 00:12:35,965 --> 00:12:37,325 a young woman and a man, and he 343 00:12:37,325 --> 00:12:38,684 he starts to become a little bit more 344 00:12:38,684 --> 00:12:41,004 distant and drops them off. And so would 345 00:12:41,004 --> 00:12:42,924 the guy have stopped if there wasn't a 346 00:12:42,924 --> 00:12:45,756 woman there to help? Draw his attention. I 347 00:12:45,975 --> 00:12:48,609 suspect not, but we do know that the 348 00:12:48,609 --> 00:12:50,685 narrator has long hair, and it was a 349 00:12:50,685 --> 00:12:53,000 dark knight, and the storm was coming in. 350 00:12:53,413 --> 00:12:55,161 Maybe he thought it was a woman. Oh, 351 00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:56,670 and then he's really disappointed. 352 00:12:57,226 --> 00:12:59,053 Yeah. I don't know. That could add a 353 00:12:59,053 --> 00:13:01,516 whole new layer to this story where, like, 354 00:13:01,992 --> 00:13:02,787 was he known? 355 00:13:04,237 --> 00:13:06,711 I don't know. I think that's that's the 356 00:13:06,711 --> 00:13:08,626 1 wrinkle in the story where a... 357 00:13:09,504 --> 00:13:10,940 The presence of No would have... 358 00:13:11,832 --> 00:13:12,789 Explained it a lot easier. 359 00:13:13,426 --> 00:13:13,745 Yes. 360 00:13:14,383 --> 00:13:16,296 Because that's like the classic trick that you 361 00:13:16,296 --> 00:13:17,730 see in the movies all the time. You 362 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:20,138 know, the the hitch he who's not getting 363 00:13:20,138 --> 00:13:21,896 anybody to stop for him, but he hides 364 00:13:21,896 --> 00:13:23,813 behind a tree or something and the lets 365 00:13:23,813 --> 00:13:26,690 his female companion do the the thumb. Right. 366 00:13:26,944 --> 00:13:29,261 And then suddenly, like, rides are a plenty. 367 00:13:29,501 --> 00:13:32,217 Right? And then sure. That that story checks 368 00:13:32,217 --> 00:13:33,037 out, but 369 00:13:33,415 --> 00:13:35,183 aside from that, I I don't think any 370 00:13:35,183 --> 00:13:37,592 of the other things have to happen with 371 00:13:37,888 --> 00:13:38,763 known around. 372 00:13:39,479 --> 00:13:39,797 True. 373 00:13:40,592 --> 00:13:42,762 But Also, I mean, if we... If we're 374 00:13:42,762 --> 00:13:44,759 gonna be really skeptical about everything in this 375 00:13:44,759 --> 00:13:45,079 story. 376 00:13:45,638 --> 00:13:47,556 It could be that nana o was a 377 00:13:47,556 --> 00:13:48,035 real person, 378 00:13:48,687 --> 00:13:50,592 and was with him and got into the 379 00:13:50,592 --> 00:13:51,702 car, hitch hiking, 380 00:13:52,337 --> 00:13:54,480 and then everything after that was a fig 381 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,521 of his imagination. Right? We don't know how 382 00:13:57,521 --> 00:14:00,554 many of these murders he actually committed. It 383 00:14:00,554 --> 00:14:01,454 could be that 384 00:14:01,912 --> 00:14:04,567 he got ride with the businessman, and 385 00:14:05,599 --> 00:14:07,535 got out of the car later, and then 386 00:14:07,992 --> 00:14:10,226 got into a scrape with the cop. And 387 00:14:10,226 --> 00:14:11,821 that's why he's in jail. Yeah. We don't 388 00:14:11,821 --> 00:14:14,223 know. Yep. Well, you mentioned it already once, 389 00:14:14,382 --> 00:14:14,541 but, 390 00:14:15,257 --> 00:14:16,608 now only did this remind me a little 391 00:14:16,608 --> 00:14:18,595 bit of fight club, but also of natural 392 00:14:18,595 --> 00:14:20,979 born killers Bonnie and Clyde. Oh, yeah. For 393 00:14:20,979 --> 00:14:23,149 sure. Where... 2 young lovers on the road, 394 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:25,470 and I was leaning more towards the natural 395 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:27,149 born killers, which I know came after this, 396 00:14:27,549 --> 00:14:30,210 but there's all sorts of unreliable ness in 397 00:14:30,429 --> 00:14:31,230 natural born killers. 398 00:14:31,804 --> 00:14:34,361 Along the way in a little psychedelic, and 399 00:14:34,521 --> 00:14:35,900 I could see that with this 400 00:14:36,359 --> 00:14:37,578 adaptation as well, but 401 00:14:38,117 --> 00:14:40,250 it's it's a trope that's used, but it's 402 00:14:40,448 --> 00:14:42,034 put a good effect here because King puts 403 00:14:42,034 --> 00:14:44,359 his own twist on it with. What if 404 00:14:44,572 --> 00:14:46,952 the woman in this situation was either not 405 00:14:46,952 --> 00:14:48,142 real or a rat creature, 406 00:14:48,634 --> 00:14:48,874 and 407 00:14:49,593 --> 00:14:51,351 that makes those types of stories even more 408 00:14:51,351 --> 00:14:53,668 fun. Yep. So normally, at this point, Jay, 409 00:14:54,067 --> 00:14:55,825 we would do our dark tower thin, 410 00:14:56,478 --> 00:14:58,311 We wanna expand this because it seems as 411 00:14:58,311 --> 00:14:59,368 if this story 412 00:14:59,745 --> 00:15:02,852 mel into a number of Stephen King works. 413 00:15:03,171 --> 00:15:05,742 Not only the dark tower books, but also 414 00:15:05,974 --> 00:15:07,957 Parts in Atlanta, Salem lot and even some 415 00:15:07,957 --> 00:15:10,178 of the castle rock stories. Yeah. So let's 416 00:15:10,178 --> 00:15:11,209 talk about those thin. 417 00:15:16,864 --> 00:15:18,692 So To start off with 1 that's not 418 00:15:18,692 --> 00:15:20,123 quite a thin, but at first I thought 419 00:15:20,123 --> 00:15:21,633 it was. It was a pseudo thin if 420 00:15:21,633 --> 00:15:23,961 you would. A pseudo thingy. A pseudo new 421 00:15:23,961 --> 00:15:24,440 1? Yes. 422 00:15:25,717 --> 00:15:27,393 I was caught off guard because at 1 423 00:15:27,393 --> 00:15:30,027 point, our narrator mentions that he felt the 424 00:15:30,027 --> 00:15:32,115 eye come over him. I'm like, oh, is 425 00:15:32,115 --> 00:15:33,944 this some sort of, like, eye from the 426 00:15:33,944 --> 00:15:36,570 dark tower or the Crimson king that's swoop 427 00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:38,479 over and seeing where he is, but it 428 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:40,125 is in fact just the eye of... And 429 00:15:40,244 --> 00:15:41,596 somebody looking at them and like, oh, there's 430 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:43,346 a hippie, but it was in all caps 431 00:15:43,346 --> 00:15:45,016 and I'm like, oh, this is something important, 432 00:15:45,175 --> 00:15:46,607 but it's just sort of that look you 433 00:15:46,607 --> 00:15:48,118 get from people who know you don't belong. 434 00:15:48,277 --> 00:15:50,610 So Pseudo city. Yeah. It was like a 435 00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:52,629 thing that he elevated to a proper noun 436 00:15:52,769 --> 00:15:54,769 status where you know when you walk into 437 00:15:54,769 --> 00:15:57,089 a place where you feel unwelcome, you get 438 00:15:57,089 --> 00:15:57,649 the eye. 439 00:15:58,783 --> 00:15:59,183 Exactly. 440 00:15:59,981 --> 00:16:01,657 The first thing that I encountered in the 441 00:16:01,657 --> 00:16:04,132 story was a line. She comes to me 442 00:16:04,132 --> 00:16:06,128 across a dark room with a stone floor, 443 00:16:06,287 --> 00:16:08,376 and I smelled dry, October Roses. 444 00:16:09,014 --> 00:16:11,164 And I don't know if I'm just kinda 445 00:16:11,164 --> 00:16:13,554 pushing the envelope here with Minis, but basically, 446 00:16:14,032 --> 00:16:16,183 anytime I see a rose in a Stephen 447 00:16:16,342 --> 00:16:18,264 King story, I can't help but think of 448 00:16:18,264 --> 00:16:20,986 a dark tower. The roses are so fundamentally 449 00:16:21,438 --> 00:16:24,294 important to the tower that is hard to 450 00:16:24,294 --> 00:16:25,270 ignore, and 451 00:16:25,579 --> 00:16:28,929 The dry October roses thing. It's realistic, but 452 00:16:28,929 --> 00:16:29,589 it's also 453 00:16:30,205 --> 00:16:31,561 kind of romantic sounding. 454 00:16:32,678 --> 00:16:34,752 There's a romance to flowers, and there's also 455 00:16:34,752 --> 00:16:37,565 the fact that it's their October roses, some... 456 00:16:37,804 --> 00:16:39,745 Something about that that linguistic 457 00:16:40,125 --> 00:16:42,365 kind of seems poetic. Yeah. 458 00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:45,259 But the realism also comes from the fact 459 00:16:45,259 --> 00:16:45,919 that he's 460 00:16:46,379 --> 00:16:47,440 smelling these roses 461 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:49,279 in a crypt 462 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:52,299 and there roses that have been left behind, 463 00:16:52,714 --> 00:16:55,336 for months. Right. So they're they're they're abandoned 464 00:16:55,336 --> 00:16:57,482 roses. They were an offering of, you know, 465 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,184 love or remembrance from somebody, but now they're 466 00:17:00,184 --> 00:17:02,506 just kind of old. So all of this 467 00:17:02,506 --> 00:17:06,408 works wonderfully together. It creates this imagery of 468 00:17:06,408 --> 00:17:08,878 not not just like, you know, it's a 469 00:17:08,878 --> 00:17:10,311 script that no one's visited in a long 470 00:17:10,311 --> 00:17:12,479 time. But the Roses are still there and 471 00:17:12,479 --> 00:17:15,032 they're still a form of decor. And 472 00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:18,860 and this story happens right around Valentine's day 473 00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:21,188 have not directly on Valentine's Day. Right? Yeah. 474 00:17:21,428 --> 00:17:22,784 I think early in the story it says 475 00:17:22,784 --> 00:17:25,577 it was the fourteenth of February. Yeah. So 476 00:17:25,577 --> 00:17:27,413 that the roses is at another meeting on 477 00:17:27,413 --> 00:17:28,450 top of that. Mh. 478 00:17:28,864 --> 00:17:30,375 Valentine's days, but you're not getting the fresh 479 00:17:30,375 --> 00:17:31,728 roads as you're getting the dry ones that 480 00:17:31,728 --> 00:17:34,036 have been in a crypt. Yep. So we 481 00:17:34,036 --> 00:17:36,662 have 2 characters who are mentioned in passing 482 00:17:36,741 --> 00:17:37,241 Ver, 483 00:17:38,188 --> 00:17:39,141 and Ace Merrill. 484 00:17:39,776 --> 00:17:42,000 And both of these characters were from the 485 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,223 body, which was later adapted into stand by 486 00:17:44,223 --> 00:17:44,382 me. 487 00:17:45,732 --> 00:17:48,289 Portrayed by Jerry khan and key for Sutherland, 488 00:17:48,688 --> 00:17:51,234 but direct connection between those characters and our 489 00:17:51,234 --> 00:17:51,870 unnamed narrator. 490 00:17:52,348 --> 00:17:54,917 And Ace Mer and in fact, the entire 491 00:17:54,974 --> 00:17:56,508 mer family is 492 00:17:56,819 --> 00:17:59,123 an important family in all of the Castle 493 00:17:59,123 --> 00:18:01,666 rock stories that King wrote before and after 494 00:18:01,666 --> 00:18:01,825 this, 495 00:18:03,176 --> 00:18:04,868 there's pop Merrill. There's 496 00:18:06,213 --> 00:18:07,409 I I can't think of all of them 497 00:18:07,409 --> 00:18:09,324 off top of my head, but the mer 498 00:18:09,324 --> 00:18:11,557 seem to have a big family in Castle 499 00:18:11,557 --> 00:18:14,428 rock and every story seems to have at 500 00:18:14,428 --> 00:18:16,676 least a passing mention of 1 of the 501 00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:17,791 people in that family. 502 00:18:18,588 --> 00:18:21,058 So it's kinda cool to see the the 503 00:18:21,058 --> 00:18:22,731 mention here. Ace is just sort of the 504 00:18:22,731 --> 00:18:26,009 local of hotshot bully type, which is exactly 505 00:18:26,009 --> 00:18:28,395 who he is in the body. Right. King 506 00:18:28,395 --> 00:18:31,117 needed 1 of those characters and just plug 507 00:18:31,117 --> 00:18:33,272 them right in. Yeah. So a 508 00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:37,044 a potential heart's in Atlanta thingy is that 509 00:18:37,182 --> 00:18:40,560 there is a, girl mentioned Betsy Mall, 510 00:18:41,171 --> 00:18:43,394 which Yeah. Could potentially be Ronnie sister if 511 00:18:43,552 --> 00:18:45,957 I'm am not mistaken. Right? She's Ace Mer 512 00:18:46,013 --> 00:18:48,488 girlfriend. Yes. Or a narrator has his eye 513 00:18:48,488 --> 00:18:49,678 on to his detriment. 514 00:18:50,313 --> 00:18:50,789 The I? 515 00:18:51,583 --> 00:18:52,773 Not the eye in this case. 516 00:18:54,692 --> 00:18:56,201 Yeah. And I thought it was kind of 517 00:18:56,201 --> 00:18:59,535 interesting that if Betsy Mo is Ronnie sister, 518 00:18:59,773 --> 00:19:02,155 which not sure if that story checks out 519 00:19:02,155 --> 00:19:03,919 or if it's just a coincidence of... Last 520 00:19:03,919 --> 00:19:04,737 name, but 521 00:19:05,433 --> 00:19:06,811 she is kind of the 522 00:19:08,065 --> 00:19:11,574 aesthetic opposite of her brother because Ronnie was 523 00:19:11,574 --> 00:19:12,530 described as being, like, 524 00:19:13,103 --> 00:19:15,963 kind of plain looking with really bad skin, 525 00:19:16,202 --> 00:19:17,950 like he had pimples and stuff like that, 526 00:19:18,268 --> 00:19:18,768 whereas 527 00:19:19,142 --> 00:19:22,261 Betsy is you know, has a flawless complexion 528 00:19:22,261 --> 00:19:23,536 and she's attractive. 529 00:19:24,492 --> 00:19:27,679 So I guess not everybody looks too similar 530 00:19:27,679 --> 00:19:29,830 in the mount family. I guess not. 531 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,650 So in both the narrator 532 00:19:33,183 --> 00:19:34,216 hallucinations about the dance, 533 00:19:34,772 --> 00:19:36,940 and then later on when No transforms 534 00:19:37,314 --> 00:19:38,346 into the rat creature. 535 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:41,867 You get a sense of of these creatures 536 00:19:41,867 --> 00:19:44,098 being like Can toy. Don't you like that 537 00:19:44,656 --> 00:19:45,873 Revealing their crew masks 538 00:19:46,901 --> 00:19:48,970 that only our narrator can see that... Oh, 539 00:19:49,129 --> 00:19:52,232 here's what lies underneath their normal faces is 540 00:19:52,232 --> 00:19:53,449 these awful 541 00:19:54,159 --> 00:19:55,917 beast like creatures. 542 00:19:56,876 --> 00:19:59,294 Right. And it's more of the 543 00:20:00,233 --> 00:20:01,452 more of the meta commentary 544 00:20:01,831 --> 00:20:04,160 that you mentioned earlier, where Like, at this 545 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,535 point, King has established 546 00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:08,694 that there are these creatures in his universe. 547 00:20:08,853 --> 00:20:12,156 The the Can are creatures that are various 548 00:20:12,294 --> 00:20:13,990 different kinds of animals who 549 00:20:14,368 --> 00:20:16,441 disguise themselves as human beings, 550 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,914 and many of them, you know, they have 551 00:20:18,914 --> 00:20:20,404 the heads of a rat. So 552 00:20:20,762 --> 00:20:22,592 That's not a big leap for us. No. 553 00:20:22,831 --> 00:20:25,297 Right? Not at all. So it's like this 554 00:20:25,297 --> 00:20:26,887 is a Stephen King story check. 555 00:20:27,698 --> 00:20:29,446 Human sized rat creature check. 556 00:20:30,082 --> 00:20:31,035 Can check. 557 00:20:31,671 --> 00:20:35,247 Dark tower universe check. It all checks out. 558 00:20:35,486 --> 00:20:38,695 Right? Yep. But I'm pretty sure that that's 559 00:20:38,695 --> 00:20:39,815 not what King was doing here. 560 00:20:41,335 --> 00:20:44,215 Our narrator has an obsession with rats. He 561 00:20:44,215 --> 00:20:44,934 had a really... 562 00:20:45,509 --> 00:20:48,241 Freaky experience when he was a kid, and 563 00:20:48,618 --> 00:20:51,249 he saw a rat giving birth. Mh. And 564 00:20:51,249 --> 00:20:53,003 after that, he was kind of scarred for 565 00:20:53,003 --> 00:20:54,934 the rest of his life. And that took 566 00:20:54,934 --> 00:20:58,295 place in the rat seller in the foster 567 00:20:58,295 --> 00:21:00,375 home where he where he was raised, and 568 00:21:00,375 --> 00:21:02,535 that's another 1 of the the Thin here, 569 00:21:04,306 --> 00:21:04,546 because, 570 00:21:06,063 --> 00:21:07,739 did I say rat seller? You did, which 571 00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:09,336 I was gonna point out after you went 572 00:21:09,336 --> 00:21:09,655 through it. 573 00:21:12,383 --> 00:21:14,452 It was not a rat seller. It was 574 00:21:14,452 --> 00:21:17,077 a root seller. Great. And so the thin 575 00:21:17,077 --> 00:21:19,065 there is that it was a root seller 576 00:21:19,065 --> 00:21:21,069 just like in Salem lot. The the root 577 00:21:21,069 --> 00:21:22,898 seller was an important part of the conclusion 578 00:21:22,898 --> 00:21:24,648 of Salem lot where a lot of the 579 00:21:24,648 --> 00:21:27,447 final scenes took place. It's So I know 580 00:21:27,447 --> 00:21:30,231 root sellers are probably fairly common in houses 581 00:21:30,231 --> 00:21:32,379 of this type in this part of North 582 00:21:32,538 --> 00:21:34,087 America, but Nevertheless, 583 00:21:34,541 --> 00:21:36,448 here we are with another root seller just 584 00:21:36,448 --> 00:21:38,753 like in Salem lot, and it's another place 585 00:21:38,753 --> 00:21:41,974 where something kind of horrific happens. And forever 586 00:21:42,113 --> 00:21:45,469 changes the psychological makeup of this character. Yeah. 587 00:21:45,788 --> 00:21:48,026 And this was in the deleted scenes of 588 00:21:48,026 --> 00:21:51,180 salem lots. But doctor Cody turns into a 589 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,200 pseudo rat creature when the actual rats sort 590 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,759 of take over his body last minute. Consume 591 00:21:56,759 --> 00:21:58,932 him from the inside out, And and that 592 00:21:58,932 --> 00:22:00,926 happens, of course, down in the seller of 593 00:22:00,926 --> 00:22:03,638 the Marks house. So another connection to Salem 594 00:22:03,638 --> 00:22:05,792 a lot. Which is also a lot like 595 00:22:05,792 --> 00:22:07,546 the final... Or 1 of the final moments 596 00:22:07,546 --> 00:22:10,519 of our narrator tail in the crypt where 597 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:13,480 he sees somehow for some reason, 1 of 598 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,851 his prior girlfriends. Yeah. Who has been, like, 599 00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:20,919 turned into a, a giant, like, incubator for 600 00:22:20,919 --> 00:22:23,471 more rats. Oh. Yep. I mean, it doesn't 601 00:22:23,471 --> 00:22:26,276 take Freud to see the connection between his 602 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:27,332 childhood experience 603 00:22:27,784 --> 00:22:30,008 and that vision vision he saw in the 604 00:22:30,008 --> 00:22:32,549 crypt. Right? Right. Yeah. The this narrator has 605 00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:33,763 some serious psychological 606 00:22:34,534 --> 00:22:34,772 issues. 607 00:22:35,344 --> 00:22:37,177 That all trace themselves back to the rats, 608 00:22:37,416 --> 00:22:39,728 I think. And if I remember correctly, didn't 609 00:22:39,887 --> 00:22:41,721 King talk about this with the spiders too 610 00:22:41,721 --> 00:22:44,125 is why the Crimson King... Sort of mh. 611 00:22:44,363 --> 00:22:46,110 Figured heavily in his mind because there were 612 00:22:46,110 --> 00:22:47,619 spiders in a barn that freaked them out. 613 00:22:48,175 --> 00:22:50,081 Yeah. Yeah. I think it was like a 614 00:22:50,081 --> 00:22:52,481 psychological scar that he he got when he 615 00:22:52,481 --> 00:22:54,631 was a kid just like this narrator did 616 00:22:54,631 --> 00:22:57,339 with a rat. And the rat giving birth 617 00:22:57,339 --> 00:22:59,409 in that scene, I think the creep part 618 00:22:59,409 --> 00:23:01,898 of that was that a spider crawled across 619 00:23:01,898 --> 00:23:04,796 the floor near enough to her face that 620 00:23:04,855 --> 00:23:06,773 she was able to eat it. Yes. In 621 00:23:06,773 --> 00:23:08,931 the midst of giving birth to her litter 622 00:23:08,931 --> 00:23:09,330 of rats. 623 00:23:10,543 --> 00:23:12,208 That freaked me out. I was like, oh, 624 00:23:12,604 --> 00:23:14,665 she's, like, just eat spider her all of 625 00:23:14,665 --> 00:23:16,726 a sudden. So King really knows how to 626 00:23:16,726 --> 00:23:18,669 sprinkle on the extra extra... Spice 627 00:23:19,203 --> 00:23:20,953 to make a creepy scene even creep beer. 628 00:23:21,192 --> 00:23:23,339 And as we've been talking about in the 629 00:23:23,339 --> 00:23:25,823 eyes of the dragon where King seems to 630 00:23:25,823 --> 00:23:27,579 have it out for spiders 1 gets crushed 631 00:23:27,579 --> 00:23:30,134 by flag, and another 1 turns to stone 632 00:23:30,134 --> 00:23:32,210 as it's walking across a book. Here's another 633 00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:33,727 1 where the spiders is in the wrong 634 00:23:33,727 --> 00:23:35,417 place at the wrong time. Kia. 635 00:23:36,292 --> 00:23:37,803 I mean, it's not like that rat that 636 00:23:37,803 --> 00:23:39,473 was mobile at the time. Yes. 637 00:23:40,269 --> 00:23:40,507 Oh, 638 00:23:41,223 --> 00:23:44,183 alright. Well, For a, you know, 30 some 639 00:23:44,183 --> 00:23:46,014 paid short story, there certainly were a lot 640 00:23:46,014 --> 00:23:47,446 of finn across here. 641 00:23:48,322 --> 00:23:50,630 Yeah. And there was a surprising amount of 642 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:52,239 fun stuff for such a 643 00:23:53,198 --> 00:23:55,755 creepy little dark story. I'm sure you have 644 00:23:55,755 --> 00:23:57,353 a couple and I'll start off with mine. 645 00:23:57,992 --> 00:24:00,630 This is almost a thin. It's in itself 646 00:24:00,630 --> 00:24:02,479 to about an hour before I started reading 647 00:24:02,479 --> 00:24:02,957 this story, 648 00:24:03,595 --> 00:24:06,327 I came across something about Be H O 649 00:24:06,386 --> 00:24:08,299 from Musk sk, and I'd camera about it 650 00:24:08,299 --> 00:24:09,495 was, I think it was an article in 651 00:24:09,495 --> 00:24:11,572 a magazine or something I was like, oh 652 00:24:11,572 --> 00:24:13,553 okay. And then I read the story and 653 00:24:13,553 --> 00:24:16,010 daryl Moral H again. And then literally, the 654 00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:16,882 next day had Jeopardy, 655 00:24:17,375 --> 00:24:18,975 there was a clue about the song, and, 656 00:24:19,055 --> 00:24:20,494 you know, obviously, I knew it right away 657 00:24:20,494 --> 00:24:22,095 because it was... It it was a Merle 658 00:24:22,255 --> 00:24:24,174 H saying this song about such and such 659 00:24:24,335 --> 00:24:25,934 I'm like, oh, it's so from Musk sk, 660 00:24:26,015 --> 00:24:27,705 and I was like, Man. And then I 661 00:24:27,705 --> 00:24:28,741 thought to myself, you know? 662 00:24:29,458 --> 00:24:32,486 Kyle works in mysterious ways, Jay. God does. 663 00:24:33,044 --> 00:24:33,761 That's pretty cool. 664 00:24:35,765 --> 00:24:37,356 Fun stuff I in my head was kind 665 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:40,538 of a a dull moment, although this could 666 00:24:40,538 --> 00:24:43,573 also be an unreliable narrator thing. And that's 667 00:24:43,573 --> 00:24:45,238 the shotgun stuff. 668 00:24:45,952 --> 00:24:47,775 This is me putting on my pad pedantic 669 00:24:47,775 --> 00:24:49,757 hat. I'm sorry. This is me putting on 670 00:24:49,757 --> 00:24:50,963 my pe. At. 671 00:24:53,514 --> 00:24:54,311 Do you ever take it off? 672 00:24:55,187 --> 00:24:56,006 No. I 673 00:25:00,224 --> 00:25:02,296 so the narrator gets into the cop car 674 00:25:02,296 --> 00:25:04,846 and he notices that the cop has a 675 00:25:04,846 --> 00:25:07,173 a shotgun in the cop car, which... Certainly, 676 00:25:07,491 --> 00:25:10,302 today, most cops do this. It... There's a 677 00:25:10,439 --> 00:25:12,670 special place to hold the shotgun right next 678 00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:13,705 to the the driver's seat. 679 00:25:14,662 --> 00:25:16,096 And he says, it was a shotgun. 680 00:25:16,747 --> 00:25:18,179 Pump action. Right? 681 00:25:18,816 --> 00:25:19,793 Those 2 words 682 00:25:20,247 --> 00:25:23,032 were not necessary, but King wrote them, 683 00:25:23,683 --> 00:25:24,878 and the editors left them in. 684 00:25:25,595 --> 00:25:27,586 And then a few pages later, the narrator 685 00:25:27,586 --> 00:25:29,895 talks about how he aimed the shotgun and 686 00:25:29,895 --> 00:25:32,046 gave the the person he's shooting. 687 00:25:32,538 --> 00:25:33,330 Both barrels, 688 00:25:33,885 --> 00:25:36,500 and then later breaks the shotgun to reload 689 00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:36,659 it. 690 00:25:37,848 --> 00:25:40,401 Aside from 1 specialty shock gun on the 691 00:25:40,401 --> 00:25:42,231 market that I'm aware of, and I'm no 692 00:25:42,231 --> 00:25:44,219 gun expert by any means, but I did 693 00:25:44,219 --> 00:25:46,526 use Google to help me look into this. 694 00:25:47,417 --> 00:25:49,509 Seems legit. Pump shotgun 695 00:25:50,124 --> 00:25:51,875 are not double barrel shotgun. 696 00:25:52,433 --> 00:25:54,105 Double barrel shotgun are the ones that you 697 00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:54,981 break to reload? 698 00:25:55,632 --> 00:25:57,300 1 shot at a time in each barrel. 699 00:25:57,698 --> 00:25:59,627 Pump shotgun guns are shotgun that you 700 00:26:00,001 --> 00:26:02,226 that don't break open, they you load them. 701 00:26:02,639 --> 00:26:04,873 With many shells and then you pump to 702 00:26:04,873 --> 00:26:06,649 take the next shot. So 703 00:26:07,027 --> 00:26:10,230 King has created an inconsistency here with the 704 00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:10,627 shotgun, 705 00:26:11,262 --> 00:26:11,762 which 706 00:26:12,215 --> 00:26:14,914 again could either be unreliable narrator, make up 707 00:26:14,914 --> 00:26:17,057 a whole bunch of nonsense in his story, 708 00:26:17,628 --> 00:26:19,618 because he just doesn't know anything about guns 709 00:26:19,618 --> 00:26:21,550 in Yada yada, or 710 00:26:21,925 --> 00:26:24,551 there's just the a little mistake here in 711 00:26:24,551 --> 00:26:27,202 the... The author slash editing process. 712 00:26:30,318 --> 00:26:32,876 If you were to explain it via the 713 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:35,043 unreliable narrator, I would give you a marvel 714 00:26:35,043 --> 00:26:35,600 no prize. 715 00:26:36,316 --> 00:26:38,145 We've come full circle back to Steve Did 716 00:26:38,145 --> 00:26:38,384 go. 717 00:26:41,262 --> 00:26:44,683 A marvel, no prize. Yes. Alright. I'm gonna 718 00:26:44,683 --> 00:26:46,115 set that on the mantle next to my 719 00:26:46,115 --> 00:26:46,990 other no prizes. 720 00:26:48,838 --> 00:26:50,756 The... This one's extra big because it's like 721 00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:53,632 a superhero with hands on hips. Right. There 722 00:26:53,632 --> 00:26:54,191 you go. Yeah. 723 00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:55,230 Nice. 724 00:26:56,845 --> 00:26:59,725 Whenever King drops references that I'm not aware 725 00:26:59,725 --> 00:27:01,005 of, I always tend to look them up 726 00:27:01,005 --> 00:27:03,085 to find out what's interesting about them, and 727 00:27:03,085 --> 00:27:03,725 he talks about, 728 00:27:04,619 --> 00:27:06,538 Sometimes there are faces you don't know like 729 00:27:06,538 --> 00:27:08,855 some of those big stars, more like Elijah 730 00:27:08,935 --> 00:27:10,634 Cook junior in, Mer, 731 00:27:11,173 --> 00:27:13,330 and some child actor, you can't remember brandon 732 00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:15,742 into wild maybe. And these are 3 actors 733 00:27:15,742 --> 00:27:18,376 whose names I didn't know right away, but 734 00:27:18,615 --> 00:27:20,771 the first 1 I should cook junior as 735 00:27:20,771 --> 00:27:22,128 soon as I saw his face on Wikipedia. 736 00:27:22,287 --> 00:27:23,245 I'm like, oh, yeah. That, dude. 737 00:27:23,976 --> 00:27:25,880 He's 1 of those that guys. He was 738 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,333 in Malt Falcon 739 00:27:27,785 --> 00:27:30,482 and House on haunted Hill and Rosemary baby. 740 00:27:31,134 --> 00:27:33,927 But most interesting to Stephen King fans, he 741 00:27:33,927 --> 00:27:36,959 played We Craig in the adaptation of Salem 742 00:27:36,959 --> 00:27:40,560 lot. Snow way. Yeah. Direct connection between, this 743 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,628 reference in this story in salem lot, so 744 00:27:42,787 --> 00:27:43,742 I guess Could have put that in the 745 00:27:43,901 --> 00:27:44,140 Thin. 746 00:27:45,174 --> 00:27:48,054 The second actress was Mere Cord, a who 747 00:27:48,054 --> 00:27:49,729 was in all sorts of movies in the 748 00:27:49,729 --> 00:27:51,723 fifties, A lot of monster movies, and she 749 00:27:51,723 --> 00:27:54,913 was also a playboy play, and, film critic 750 00:27:54,993 --> 00:27:57,386 Leonard Mo said Cord had more acting ability 751 00:27:57,386 --> 00:27:59,466 than she was permitted to exhibit because she 752 00:27:59,466 --> 00:28:01,450 was in all these trash movies, but 753 00:28:01,846 --> 00:28:03,512 she was a standout from what I understand. 754 00:28:03,988 --> 00:28:05,575 And then the third 1 was brandon dew 755 00:28:05,575 --> 00:28:06,075 wild 756 00:28:06,464 --> 00:28:08,778 who is best known for being nominated for 757 00:28:08,778 --> 00:28:10,533 best supporting actor in Shane, and he was 758 00:28:10,533 --> 00:28:12,927 the youngest ever nominated for an oscar at 759 00:28:12,927 --> 00:28:15,275 that point in time, and he died early 760 00:28:15,492 --> 00:28:16,606 in a car accident when he was in 761 00:28:16,606 --> 00:28:18,914 his thirties, but an interesting fact about Brandon 762 00:28:18,994 --> 00:28:21,404 Dew Wild, he was in an Alfred Hitchcock 763 00:28:21,462 --> 00:28:21,700 presents, 764 00:28:22,434 --> 00:28:24,755 episode in which he was a kid, and 765 00:28:24,755 --> 00:28:26,595 he was watching a magician saw a lady 766 00:28:26,595 --> 00:28:28,835 in half, and then he does the trick 767 00:28:28,835 --> 00:28:30,603 himself except it's not a magic trick in 768 00:28:30,603 --> 00:28:31,956 the ends up song the lady... A real 769 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:35,378 lady in half. Oh, man. And the film 770 00:28:35,378 --> 00:28:36,970 station thought it was too gory to show 771 00:28:36,970 --> 00:28:39,769 on Tv. And so they ended up ditching 772 00:28:39,769 --> 00:28:41,993 the show, and they wouldn't they wouldn't allow 773 00:28:41,993 --> 00:28:44,319 it to be shown. It was later packaged 774 00:28:44,375 --> 00:28:45,431 in s 775 00:28:45,804 --> 00:28:47,869 and Dvd, so it's not that you can't 776 00:28:47,869 --> 00:28:49,715 see it, but you couldn't see it originally 777 00:28:49,715 --> 00:28:51,628 on the regular run of Alfred Hitchcock presents. 778 00:28:51,788 --> 00:28:54,338 So... Oh, So it was he the the 779 00:28:54,338 --> 00:28:56,672 boy who be friend Shane? And 780 00:28:57,144 --> 00:28:59,381 like, you, cries when he leaves town, 781 00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:01,219 spoilers shane. 782 00:29:01,858 --> 00:29:03,296 I don't remember to tell you the truth. 783 00:29:06,586 --> 00:29:08,023 Because you say as a child actor, but 784 00:29:08,023 --> 00:29:10,737 there were, I guess, a handful of children 785 00:29:10,737 --> 00:29:13,771 age actors. He played Joey Star at if 786 00:29:13,771 --> 00:29:14,410 that helps you. 787 00:29:15,223 --> 00:29:17,377 But king always figures out these interesting people 788 00:29:17,377 --> 00:29:20,170 to pull into his name drops. Yeah. I 789 00:29:20,170 --> 00:29:21,527 mean, you and I have a lot of 790 00:29:21,527 --> 00:29:23,698 fun with our... Off the cuff pop culture 791 00:29:23,698 --> 00:29:26,015 references, but imagine having a conversation with King. 792 00:29:26,335 --> 00:29:26,894 Yeah. Oh, 793 00:29:27,693 --> 00:29:27,853 yeah. 794 00:29:28,572 --> 00:29:31,065 My my knowledge doesn't start till the... Early 795 00:29:31,065 --> 00:29:33,144 eighties, my alone his that goes back into 796 00:29:33,144 --> 00:29:34,825 the fifties where he's pulling these names out. 797 00:29:35,144 --> 00:29:37,144 Yep. And he's always kept on top of 798 00:29:37,144 --> 00:29:40,117 it. So, like, Yeah. So he's... His library 799 00:29:40,117 --> 00:29:41,156 is vast. Yes. 800 00:29:42,035 --> 00:29:44,512 You would also recognize Elijah cook was in 801 00:29:44,512 --> 00:29:47,723 a pretty famous episode of... Star trek. It 802 00:29:47,723 --> 00:29:50,276 was the Court Martial episode, and pro portrayed 803 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:50,755 the lawyer, 804 00:29:51,393 --> 00:29:53,388 Samuel Cog in that episode. 805 00:29:55,317 --> 00:29:57,544 Okay. It's not a major character, but... No. 806 00:29:57,782 --> 00:29:59,055 Not a major character. A pretty good guest 807 00:29:59,055 --> 00:30:00,487 star. He did a bunch. He was trying 808 00:30:00,487 --> 00:30:01,442 to arrest sp. 809 00:30:02,250 --> 00:30:04,232 Yeah. Just well not stand. He did a 810 00:30:04,232 --> 00:30:04,628 bunch of 811 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,481 good guest stars. He's got Magna Pi on 812 00:30:07,481 --> 00:30:08,908 his list and the a team. 813 00:30:09,558 --> 00:30:10,058 Oh. 814 00:30:10,831 --> 00:30:13,137 Hey. Once you reach a team levels, 815 00:30:14,490 --> 00:30:15,603 What more could you ask for? 816 00:30:16,733 --> 00:30:18,407 I've got 1 last fun stuff Jay, and 817 00:30:18,407 --> 00:30:18,907 that's 818 00:30:19,283 --> 00:30:21,515 the narrator says, after that, I was just 819 00:30:21,515 --> 00:30:24,066 the habit that's hard to break. Like smoking, 820 00:30:24,638 --> 00:30:26,392 We're driving with your elbow poked out the 821 00:30:26,392 --> 00:30:26,710 window. 822 00:30:27,268 --> 00:30:27,768 And 823 00:30:28,384 --> 00:30:30,296 I totally board of smoking. That is a 824 00:30:30,296 --> 00:30:31,571 habit that is hard to break. 825 00:30:32,143 --> 00:30:33,892 It's an addiction. It's terrible, 826 00:30:34,368 --> 00:30:36,196 but driving while your elbows is out the 827 00:30:36,196 --> 00:30:38,343 window, like, I don't see that as a 828 00:30:38,343 --> 00:30:40,509 habit necessarily. And I'm not sure if it's 829 00:30:40,509 --> 00:30:42,509 something you necessarily need or want to break. 830 00:30:42,669 --> 00:30:45,309 But in king mind, I guess those things 831 00:30:45,309 --> 00:30:47,549 are comparable. Right? Smoking and putting your elbow 832 00:30:47,549 --> 00:30:48,190 out the window. 833 00:30:48,765 --> 00:30:50,945 I remember hearing something about 834 00:30:51,325 --> 00:30:52,845 this has to go back to the late 835 00:30:52,845 --> 00:30:53,164 eighties, 836 00:30:53,805 --> 00:30:56,445 maybe even a little earlier that there were 837 00:30:56,445 --> 00:30:57,585 people who drove 838 00:30:57,898 --> 00:30:59,670 so much, like truck drivers 839 00:31:00,044 --> 00:31:02,031 or people who had jobs who kept them 840 00:31:02,031 --> 00:31:04,257 in their cars or their vehicles for long, 841 00:31:04,336 --> 00:31:06,179 long periods of time, and they got into 842 00:31:06,179 --> 00:31:08,962 that habit. They would actually get sunburn and 843 00:31:08,962 --> 00:31:10,496 then tan and 844 00:31:10,870 --> 00:31:11,268 finally, 845 00:31:11,825 --> 00:31:13,176 degraded skin. Yeah. 846 00:31:14,066 --> 00:31:15,600 Just that part of their arm 847 00:31:15,975 --> 00:31:17,805 because of that habit. And I guess that 848 00:31:17,805 --> 00:31:20,032 if you did drive that way all the 849 00:31:20,032 --> 00:31:20,191 time, 850 00:31:20,842 --> 00:31:22,672 and it was a habit, you would find 851 00:31:22,672 --> 00:31:25,240 yourself doing it and not realizing that you're, 852 00:31:25,615 --> 00:31:27,365 you know, you're damaging your skin, and it's 853 00:31:27,365 --> 00:31:29,685 like, you've got, like, 1 elbow that's looks 854 00:31:29,685 --> 00:31:31,512 older than your other elbow. Right. 855 00:31:32,385 --> 00:31:34,792 And so maybe you would wanna consciously 856 00:31:35,245 --> 00:31:36,992 stop yourself from doing that. I thought you're 857 00:31:36,992 --> 00:31:38,714 gonna talk about the rash of, 858 00:31:39,711 --> 00:31:41,865 accidental elbow amp mutations that happened. 859 00:31:42,662 --> 00:31:43,162 Yes. 860 00:31:44,177 --> 00:31:46,091 Not to mention all the si mirrors that 861 00:31:46,091 --> 00:31:47,925 were lost in all of those tragic accidents. 862 00:31:48,339 --> 00:31:50,257 So you know how I prevent that from 863 00:31:50,257 --> 00:31:51,936 happening for me, Jay, with the 864 00:31:52,735 --> 00:31:54,413 worrying about the skin on 1 half of 865 00:31:54,413 --> 00:31:56,810 my body. How. However much driving I do 866 00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:59,533 in the United States. I matched that amount 867 00:31:59,533 --> 00:32:01,360 in England so that my other elbows is 868 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:01,996 out the window. 869 00:32:02,552 --> 00:32:03,823 I thought you're gonna say you put on 870 00:32:03,823 --> 00:32:04,697 a long sleeve shirt. 871 00:32:05,268 --> 00:32:07,653 But that's so much harder than going to 872 00:32:07,891 --> 00:32:08,391 England. 873 00:32:10,514 --> 00:32:12,422 It doesn't necessarily have to be England, but 874 00:32:12,422 --> 00:32:13,932 at least 1 of the commonwealth countries. 875 00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:15,299 Yeah. 876 00:32:16,413 --> 00:32:17,606 Anywhere where they drive on the wrong side 877 00:32:17,606 --> 00:32:19,356 of the road? Oh snap. 878 00:32:24,153 --> 00:32:26,069 Jay were getting punchy. That must mean that 879 00:32:26,069 --> 00:32:27,905 this is the end of this episode of 880 00:32:27,905 --> 00:32:29,901 2 guys to the dark tower came. Thanks 881 00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:32,387 Jay. Thank you. Links to all of our 882 00:32:32,387 --> 00:32:33,980 social media is available in the show notes. 883 00:32:34,140 --> 00:32:35,653 If you like the show, please rate us 884 00:32:35,653 --> 00:32:36,769 on Apple Podcast podcasts. 885 00:32:37,406 --> 00:32:38,841 For Jay Russo, I'm Sean. 886 00:32:39,478 --> 00:32:40,195 Thanks for listening. 887 00:32:56,112 --> 00:32:56,905 That's a fragment.