1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:03,139 They were daughters, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:04,339 mothers, 3 00:00:04,799 --> 00:00:05,299 sisters, 4 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:06,500 strangers. 5 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,380 Their lives ended violently, 6 00:00:09,839 --> 00:00:12,419 and their names were lost to time. 7 00:00:13,275 --> 00:00:14,814 For more than a half century, 8 00:00:15,115 --> 00:00:15,615 Detroit's 9 00:00:15,914 --> 00:00:19,454 forgotten dead lay buried beneath weeds in silence. 10 00:00:20,394 --> 00:00:20,894 Unidentified 11 00:00:21,355 --> 00:00:24,494 murder victims dumped into paupers' graves, 12 00:00:25,114 --> 00:00:27,535 sometimes stacked in vaults three deep, 13 00:00:27,839 --> 00:00:31,460 known only by numbers in crumbling cemetery logs. 14 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:32,899 No names, 15 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,100 no justice, 16 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:35,539 no answers. 17 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,039 This is the story of a remarkable five 18 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:42,274 year journey of a team of relentless female 19 00:00:42,335 --> 00:00:42,835 investigators 20 00:00:43,295 --> 00:00:46,274 who pledged to identify more than 200 victims 21 00:00:46,495 --> 00:00:47,954 of Detroit's outstanding 22 00:00:48,335 --> 00:00:49,234 murder cases. 23 00:00:50,575 --> 00:00:53,880 Led by Detroit Police Detective Shannon Jones and 24 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,539 FBI Special Agent Leslie Larson, 25 00:00:57,399 --> 00:00:59,260 this group of dedicated women, 26 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:00,300 detectives, 27 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:01,179 agents, 28 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:02,140 forensic 29 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:02,940 anthropologists, 30 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:04,140 and scientists, 31 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,560 literally dug through the past to bring closure 32 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:08,219 to families 33 00:01:08,905 --> 00:01:10,365 and justice to the murdered. 34 00:01:11,064 --> 00:01:13,245 Their quest became known as Operation 35 00:01:13,704 --> 00:01:14,204 United, 36 00:01:14,984 --> 00:01:16,365 the largest coordinated 37 00:01:16,745 --> 00:01:19,885 exhumation of cold case murder victims in FBI 38 00:01:20,105 --> 00:01:20,605 history. 39 00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:24,700 Katharine Schweid tells the story of this unprecedented 40 00:01:25,159 --> 00:01:26,219 five year mission 41 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,480 in her book, Women Who Talk to the 42 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:29,980 Dead. 43 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,819 Schweid is a former FBI Special Agent Executive, 44 00:01:34,435 --> 00:01:36,615 Chicago prosecutor and journalist. 45 00:01:37,234 --> 00:01:40,115 She wrote the FBI's seminal report on mass 46 00:01:40,115 --> 00:01:43,495 shooters and is a recognized expert in crisis 47 00:01:43,555 --> 00:01:45,734 response and workplace violence. 48 00:01:46,355 --> 00:01:48,349 Here's my interview with Katherine 49 00:01:57,209 --> 00:01:57,950 Schwhite. Katherine, 50 00:01:58,569 --> 00:01:59,709 start with this 51 00:02:00,745 --> 00:02:01,965 pauper's cemeteries 52 00:02:02,825 --> 00:02:06,025 in Detroit. What happened? How do 150 53 00:02:06,025 --> 00:02:06,525 bodies 54 00:02:07,064 --> 00:02:07,965 kind of anonymously 55 00:02:08,745 --> 00:02:10,905 end up in it? If you'll give me 56 00:02:10,905 --> 00:02:12,905 the background of what takes place, how does 57 00:02:12,905 --> 00:02:13,564 this happen? 58 00:02:14,330 --> 00:02:15,610 So let me give you just a little 59 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:17,310 bit of the backstory. The 60 00:02:17,689 --> 00:02:18,909 the deal is Detroit 61 00:02:20,010 --> 00:02:22,669 is like every other town. Through the years, 62 00:02:22,730 --> 00:02:23,790 people get murdered, 63 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:24,830 and, 64 00:02:25,449 --> 00:02:26,969 whether you know who it the name of 65 00:02:26,969 --> 00:02:28,569 the person who's murdered or you don't, you 66 00:02:28,569 --> 00:02:30,134 still have to put that body into the 67 00:02:30,134 --> 00:02:30,634 ground, 68 00:02:31,254 --> 00:02:33,414 because you can't leave bodies in the MA's 69 00:02:33,414 --> 00:02:35,414 office or the coroner's office for a long 70 00:02:35,414 --> 00:02:37,114 time, medical examiner's office. 71 00:02:37,495 --> 00:02:39,974 So people, it's part of the process. Right? 72 00:02:39,974 --> 00:02:41,895 You scoop up a body someplace and you 73 00:02:41,974 --> 00:02:43,814 I hate to sound so callous about it, 74 00:02:43,814 --> 00:02:44,314 but, 75 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,280 you know, you you pick up a body, 76 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,280 you take them to the medical examiner's office. 77 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,520 The medical examiner says this person died. This 78 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,840 is what fills out a form. This is 79 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,819 what this person died. Uses little, you know, 80 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,835 the the little, operation sheet, you know, that 81 00:02:58,835 --> 00:03:00,915 shows a person laying on the table, makes 82 00:03:00,915 --> 00:03:02,514 x marks where the bullet holes went in 83 00:03:02,514 --> 00:03:04,194 the body, things like that. And then the 84 00:03:04,194 --> 00:03:05,635 body goes out, and it's buried in the 85 00:03:05,635 --> 00:03:08,294 cemetery. And that's what we've done for centuries 86 00:03:08,675 --> 00:03:09,175 across, 87 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:11,550 you know, not just in Detroit, but across 88 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:13,330 the world. And here in Detroit, 89 00:03:13,709 --> 00:03:14,610 there are probably 90 00:03:15,310 --> 00:03:16,530 300 cases 91 00:03:16,830 --> 00:03:17,810 of unidentified 92 00:03:18,590 --> 00:03:20,770 murder victims that had been buried 93 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:23,330 in Detroit since 1959 94 00:03:23,389 --> 00:03:24,610 in in Wayne County, 95 00:03:25,305 --> 00:03:27,384 in the Wayne County area, which is what 96 00:03:27,384 --> 00:03:28,525 Detroit is part of. 97 00:03:28,905 --> 00:03:31,705 And there is a and this whole story 98 00:03:31,705 --> 00:03:34,604 begins because there's a police detective, Shannon Jones, 99 00:03:34,745 --> 00:03:37,245 who gets assigned to the missing persons cases. 100 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,139 And Shannon realizes 101 00:03:39,519 --> 00:03:41,939 that sometimes she's looking for a missing person, 102 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:44,159 and the way that she's able to find 103 00:03:44,159 --> 00:03:46,180 them is to go back and find them 104 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:49,139 in the murder victim's cold case murder files. 105 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:51,299 She begins to see this crossover, 106 00:03:52,014 --> 00:03:54,754 but most of the cold case murders 107 00:03:55,694 --> 00:03:56,514 are unidentified 108 00:03:56,894 --> 00:03:58,974 victims, so she can't match a missing person 109 00:03:58,974 --> 00:04:01,155 to it unless she has DNA. 110 00:04:01,775 --> 00:04:04,254 About 200 of the 300, she has DNA 111 00:04:04,254 --> 00:04:07,134 on. She begins to see connections between missing 112 00:04:07,134 --> 00:04:07,634 people 113 00:04:08,629 --> 00:04:10,090 and between murdered victims, 114 00:04:10,389 --> 00:04:12,009 but she doesn't have the DNA 115 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:14,949 for all of these other people. So she 116 00:04:14,949 --> 00:04:17,370 starts pulling files, and she goes 117 00:04:18,069 --> 00:04:20,550 to Leslie Larson at the FBI, who is 118 00:04:20,550 --> 00:04:21,930 an expert digger, 119 00:04:22,235 --> 00:04:24,574 who's a who's an who's a forensic specialist. 120 00:04:25,194 --> 00:04:27,615 She runs their their forensic team at Detroit, 121 00:04:27,915 --> 00:04:30,394 and she says, hey, Leslie. Let's just dig 122 00:04:30,394 --> 00:04:33,194 these 200 some bodies up and get DNA 123 00:04:33,194 --> 00:04:34,410 from every one of them. 124 00:04:35,290 --> 00:04:36,350 So she knew 125 00:04:36,970 --> 00:04:39,470 there were all these pauper's graves out there 126 00:04:40,410 --> 00:04:41,310 to be explored. 127 00:04:42,569 --> 00:04:45,050 What was the the challenge of trying to 128 00:04:45,050 --> 00:04:47,389 get the bureaucrats to approve all of this? 129 00:04:47,449 --> 00:04:48,889 That might have to be, you know, you're 130 00:04:48,889 --> 00:04:49,790 spending money. 131 00:04:50,285 --> 00:04:52,044 Yeah. No kidding. And so I think part 132 00:04:52,044 --> 00:04:52,865 of it is, 133 00:04:53,324 --> 00:04:55,004 I would say if I had to put 134 00:04:55,004 --> 00:04:55,824 one word 135 00:04:56,444 --> 00:04:56,944 to, 136 00:04:58,125 --> 00:04:59,185 this is, you know, 137 00:04:59,644 --> 00:05:01,824 if I had to put one word to, 138 00:05:02,204 --> 00:05:04,365 this is Shannon at the Shannon in the 139 00:05:04,365 --> 00:05:05,665 top corner of the book, 140 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,800 it would be, Leslie Larson has the blonde 141 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,660 hair and Shannon has the dark hair. 142 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,740 Tenacity. Shannon is the most tenacious. 143 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:18,580 She's the most tenacious person ever. And she 144 00:05:19,585 --> 00:05:21,585 her she does doesn't believe in the word 145 00:05:21,585 --> 00:05:22,085 no. 146 00:05:22,464 --> 00:05:22,964 So 147 00:05:23,504 --> 00:05:25,665 she comes up with this idea, and first, 148 00:05:25,665 --> 00:05:26,805 she has to convince 149 00:05:27,345 --> 00:05:28,884 Leslie it's a good idea. 150 00:05:29,425 --> 00:05:32,305 And Leslie is like, what? You wanna dig 151 00:05:32,305 --> 00:05:34,540 up 200 people? We can't. How do we 152 00:05:34,540 --> 00:05:36,780 dig up 200 people? The FBI's never dug 153 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:38,240 up 200 people before. 154 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:41,500 And so it is, as you say, it 155 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:42,879 is kind of this logistical 156 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:44,319 crazy nightmare 157 00:05:44,699 --> 00:05:46,860 of, well, they decide to do it, but 158 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:48,774 then how do you execute that? And that's 159 00:05:48,774 --> 00:05:50,214 really why I want to write the book 160 00:05:50,214 --> 00:05:52,214 because I think it's it's the story that 161 00:05:52,214 --> 00:05:53,974 we never hear. We hear about DNA. We 162 00:05:53,974 --> 00:05:56,474 hear about somebody digging up, and DNA identifies 163 00:05:56,534 --> 00:05:58,714 a murder victim, and then some murderers 164 00:05:59,254 --> 00:06:00,314 murder is solved. 165 00:06:01,259 --> 00:06:03,579 200 cases. 220 166 00:06:03,579 --> 00:06:05,500 cases. It turns out they 220 167 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:07,500 bodies they actually dug up, but I capped 168 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:08,939 my book at when we got to a 169 00:06:08,939 --> 00:06:09,759 certain point. 170 00:06:10,139 --> 00:06:12,060 So they did have a lot of, a 171 00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:14,139 lot of roadblocks. I mean, a lot of 172 00:06:14,139 --> 00:06:16,245 roadblocks. That's part of what I I talk 173 00:06:16,245 --> 00:06:18,185 about in the book. So Leslie 174 00:06:19,525 --> 00:06:22,564 believes these victims are speaking to her? Yeah. 175 00:06:22,564 --> 00:06:23,064 Leslie 176 00:06:23,764 --> 00:06:24,585 and Shannon 177 00:06:26,004 --> 00:06:28,725 work on cases like this a lot in 178 00:06:28,725 --> 00:06:31,225 their own capacity, in their own jobs. And, 179 00:06:32,069 --> 00:06:34,490 you know, when I first started this effort, 180 00:06:34,949 --> 00:06:36,730 they decided to do this digging. 181 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:40,230 It took five years to dig up these 182 00:06:40,230 --> 00:06:41,529 200 some bodies. 183 00:06:42,230 --> 00:06:44,629 And I said, you know, well, what how 184 00:06:44,629 --> 00:06:45,449 do you know? 185 00:06:45,784 --> 00:06:47,865 When you're digging up a casket, right, you 186 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:49,485 know there's a body in the casket. 187 00:06:50,024 --> 00:06:51,784 And Leslie said, well, look, you know, I 188 00:06:51,784 --> 00:06:53,064 go out on the scene all the time. 189 00:06:53,064 --> 00:06:55,485 Somebody will call us, somebody will call Shannon, 190 00:06:55,704 --> 00:06:56,444 and say, 191 00:06:56,985 --> 00:06:59,189 the guy that I, I got a guy 192 00:06:59,189 --> 00:07:01,110 in my office, and, he told me that, 193 00:07:01,430 --> 00:07:03,669 he's confessed that he killed his kid, and 194 00:07:03,669 --> 00:07:05,669 the kid is buried here. Can you come 195 00:07:05,669 --> 00:07:08,149 out and dig the body up and come 196 00:07:08,149 --> 00:07:10,004 out and see if the kid's buried there? 197 00:07:11,045 --> 00:07:12,345 Leslie says to me, 198 00:07:12,725 --> 00:07:14,745 you know, early on, she's like, you know, 199 00:07:15,524 --> 00:07:16,964 Shannon and I, when we go out to 200 00:07:16,964 --> 00:07:19,845 a scene, we can just tell. We can 201 00:07:19,845 --> 00:07:22,165 feel whether or not there's a body underground. 202 00:07:22,165 --> 00:07:23,925 We might still have to dig and look, 203 00:07:23,925 --> 00:07:25,305 but when we get there, 204 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,000 we know. I go, how how is that 205 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:28,500 possible? 206 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,959 She said, I don't know. It just it 207 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:33,439 just is. We we can feel it, and 208 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:35,540 and we know when we walk out there 209 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,639 that there's somebody underground because I think we 210 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:40,720 can hear them. They're they're asking us to 211 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:41,415 speak for them. 212 00:07:42,055 --> 00:07:44,535 And she was very sincere, you know, in 213 00:07:44,535 --> 00:07:45,435 in saying that. 214 00:07:45,735 --> 00:07:47,595 And she's not new at this game. 215 00:07:48,055 --> 00:07:49,735 She's been giving up bodies for a long 216 00:07:49,735 --> 00:07:50,235 time. 217 00:07:52,615 --> 00:07:53,915 Describe this 218 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,040 kind of makeshift graveyard, because it's not like 219 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,420 a cemetery with 220 00:07:58,959 --> 00:07:59,459 memorials 221 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:00,740 and headstones. 222 00:08:02,399 --> 00:08:04,579 Is it mass faults and just a 223 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:06,100 stake marking 224 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,120 places? No, I mean, to be clear, these 225 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,500 are bodies that were buried 226 00:08:10,904 --> 00:08:14,285 over a seventy year period. Right. Every time, 227 00:08:14,665 --> 00:08:15,145 you know, 228 00:08:15,944 --> 00:08:18,504 the coroner's office or the medical examiner's office 229 00:08:18,504 --> 00:08:20,345 would have, you know, five or six or 230 00:08:20,345 --> 00:08:22,665 seven bodies, they drive them out to the 231 00:08:22,665 --> 00:08:23,564 county cemetery 232 00:08:24,264 --> 00:08:26,125 and there's places where, 233 00:08:27,009 --> 00:08:29,169 you know, when you bury a loved one, 234 00:08:29,169 --> 00:08:31,009 you go to the cemetery, and you pick 235 00:08:31,009 --> 00:08:33,490 out, you know, a sunny spot at the 236 00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:35,889 top of a hill, underneath a beautiful tree, 237 00:08:35,889 --> 00:08:37,809 where you can put a bench, and so 238 00:08:37,809 --> 00:08:39,669 you can go out and sit there and 239 00:08:39,674 --> 00:08:41,615 reminisce and talk to your loved one. 240 00:08:42,235 --> 00:08:44,235 Those, these are not the burial plots that 241 00:08:44,235 --> 00:08:46,394 are for, at the top of a beautiful 242 00:08:46,394 --> 00:08:48,654 hill, you know, underneath the sun each, 243 00:08:49,034 --> 00:08:50,174 with the tree and everything. 244 00:08:50,634 --> 00:08:53,855 These are burial areas in the cemeteries 245 00:08:54,529 --> 00:08:57,110 that nobody's buying a plot in because 246 00:08:57,649 --> 00:08:58,149 they're 247 00:08:59,170 --> 00:09:00,389 down in a ditch. 248 00:09:00,769 --> 00:09:01,670 They're above, 249 00:09:02,690 --> 00:09:05,269 they're running along the cattle fence 250 00:09:05,730 --> 00:09:08,529 that's tacked in to separate it and keep 251 00:09:08,529 --> 00:09:11,065 the, you know, deer from running across from 252 00:09:11,065 --> 00:09:12,845 the highway onto the cemetery. 253 00:09:13,945 --> 00:09:14,684 And so, 254 00:09:15,225 --> 00:09:17,325 it's not the desirable places 255 00:09:17,865 --> 00:09:19,544 and when you go and stand there you 256 00:09:19,544 --> 00:09:21,544 think to yourself, how can there people, how 257 00:09:21,544 --> 00:09:23,740 can people even be buried under here? And 258 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:24,799 in some cases, 259 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:26,799 you know, as we talked about it, 260 00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:28,559 it's not just, 261 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:30,940 you know, someone buried in a box under 262 00:09:30,940 --> 00:09:32,379 the ground, which is what we see on 263 00:09:32,379 --> 00:09:34,399 television and we think about in the movies. 264 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:35,920 But in reality, 265 00:09:36,575 --> 00:09:38,835 these people are buried sometimes 266 00:09:39,294 --> 00:09:40,995 four caskets deep, 267 00:09:41,615 --> 00:09:42,115 sometimes 268 00:09:42,495 --> 00:09:44,195 four bags deep. 269 00:09:45,054 --> 00:09:47,794 And, sometimes the water level in Michigan 270 00:09:48,174 --> 00:09:49,475 is all the way up 271 00:09:50,269 --> 00:09:52,590 to the top of the ground. Mhmm. Which 272 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:53,649 means the water, 273 00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:56,990 the bags or the boxes are sitting in 274 00:09:56,990 --> 00:09:57,490 water 275 00:09:57,950 --> 00:09:58,850 all the time. 276 00:09:59,149 --> 00:10:00,429 I think that's one of the things too 277 00:10:00,429 --> 00:10:02,269 that I wanted to bring in on the 278 00:10:02,269 --> 00:10:04,029 book. I don't wanna be so gross, but 279 00:10:04,029 --> 00:10:05,409 I want people to understand 280 00:10:06,035 --> 00:10:07,575 the challenges involved 281 00:10:07,955 --> 00:10:10,995 with digging up bodies that are buried in 282 00:10:10,995 --> 00:10:13,014 places that no one ever thinks 283 00:10:13,715 --> 00:10:14,855 are ever gonna be 284 00:10:15,715 --> 00:10:16,215 exhumed 285 00:10:16,835 --> 00:10:18,835 and, and no one would ever want to 286 00:10:18,835 --> 00:10:20,535 go there to dig up a body. 287 00:10:26,059 --> 00:10:29,259 Well, they called it Operation United and that 288 00:10:29,259 --> 00:10:29,919 that first 289 00:10:30,379 --> 00:10:32,559 exhumation they called Dig Day. 290 00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:34,480 What was that first 291 00:10:35,075 --> 00:10:35,575 day 292 00:10:36,035 --> 00:10:36,695 of exhumations 293 00:10:37,154 --> 00:10:37,654 like? 294 00:10:38,115 --> 00:10:40,195 Well, a little bit of spoiler alert here, 295 00:10:40,195 --> 00:10:43,154 just, not too much. But, you know, the 296 00:10:43,154 --> 00:10:45,475 first dig, it did not go the way 297 00:10:45,475 --> 00:10:47,315 they wanted it to. You know, as you 298 00:10:47,315 --> 00:10:49,235 mentioned, there was a lot of questions about, 299 00:10:49,235 --> 00:10:51,350 you know, how do you overcome this challenge? 300 00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:53,210 And they they brought a lot of resources 301 00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:56,490 to the table. They asked for volunteers to, 302 00:10:56,629 --> 00:10:59,029 you know, bring food to the people who 303 00:10:59,029 --> 00:11:00,170 were digging, and 304 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:02,970 the FBI flew in a lot of experts 305 00:11:03,029 --> 00:11:04,090 to do the digging. 306 00:11:04,615 --> 00:11:04,934 And, 307 00:11:05,415 --> 00:11:07,495 the Detroit police, of course, provided a lot 308 00:11:07,495 --> 00:11:08,154 of experts. 309 00:11:08,615 --> 00:11:09,115 And 310 00:11:09,575 --> 00:11:11,975 they got there, and they set everything up, 311 00:11:11,975 --> 00:11:13,735 and the plan is to dig all week, 312 00:11:13,735 --> 00:11:15,835 and they're there in the month of May. 313 00:11:16,375 --> 00:11:17,434 And there are 314 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:18,740 ponds 315 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,759 of water over the spaces that they are 316 00:11:21,759 --> 00:11:23,299 thinking they're gonna dig up. 317 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,620 Now they have excavators they've borrowed 318 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:28,740 and 319 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,195 pumps to pump water out of out of, 320 00:11:32,355 --> 00:11:34,595 we know that when you dig underground, experienced 321 00:11:34,595 --> 00:11:36,615 people who who know when you dig underground, 322 00:11:36,835 --> 00:11:39,254 you may have to dig water out. Water 323 00:11:39,955 --> 00:11:41,735 the state of Michigan is surrounded 324 00:11:42,129 --> 00:11:44,449 by lakes, the Great Lakes. Right. So the 325 00:11:44,449 --> 00:11:45,649 water table is very, 326 00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:48,289 high in Michigan. You can dig a well 327 00:11:48,289 --> 00:11:48,949 in Michigan, 328 00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:52,370 and get fresh water at probably 25 feet 329 00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:53,429 in a lot of places, 330 00:11:53,889 --> 00:11:56,894 which is really a shallow well. So they 331 00:11:56,894 --> 00:11:58,355 get out there, and 332 00:11:59,134 --> 00:12:01,214 they are trying to dig, and they are 333 00:12:01,214 --> 00:12:01,714 putting 334 00:12:02,574 --> 00:12:04,975 pumps lines in the in the in the 335 00:12:04,975 --> 00:12:07,534 holes, and they can't keep up with the 336 00:12:07,534 --> 00:12:09,315 water that is coming back in. 337 00:12:09,929 --> 00:12:11,070 And then the 338 00:12:11,450 --> 00:12:11,950 cemetery 339 00:12:12,809 --> 00:12:13,309 records 340 00:12:14,009 --> 00:12:15,710 don't really seem to match. 341 00:12:16,490 --> 00:12:18,330 And they were looking for, I believe they 342 00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:20,190 were looking for 18 343 00:12:20,889 --> 00:12:21,389 bodies, 344 00:12:22,345 --> 00:12:24,904 and and they had been there for a 345 00:12:24,904 --> 00:12:25,965 whole week, 346 00:12:26,664 --> 00:12:28,365 and they had found one. 347 00:12:29,785 --> 00:12:31,725 So that's how they started. 348 00:12:32,424 --> 00:12:33,884 And I think at that point, 349 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:35,500 as you can imagine, 350 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,279 the supervisors are saying, what are we wasting 351 00:12:40,279 --> 00:12:41,340 all our time doing? 352 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,460 And you need the bones to extract DNA 353 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:45,179 from. 354 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:47,420 And at some point, 355 00:12:48,024 --> 00:12:49,325 there's a bone tint, 356 00:12:50,105 --> 00:12:51,245 and what an archaeologist 357 00:12:51,625 --> 00:12:54,264 plays a crucial role, because the bones can 358 00:12:54,264 --> 00:12:56,184 really tell you a lot about how the 359 00:12:56,184 --> 00:12:58,825 person perished. The reason that you would exhume 360 00:12:58,825 --> 00:12:59,404 a body 361 00:13:00,024 --> 00:13:03,245 is if you want to positively identify somebody 362 00:13:03,659 --> 00:13:06,379 forever, right, you you right now, what we 363 00:13:06,379 --> 00:13:08,079 know is that you need DNA. 364 00:13:08,860 --> 00:13:10,959 And DNA has been more commonly 365 00:13:11,740 --> 00:13:14,059 used for identification since kind of the eighties 366 00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:15,279 and nineties. Right? 367 00:13:15,595 --> 00:13:17,674 And but it's expensive to get DNA because 368 00:13:17,674 --> 00:13:20,014 imagine digging up a body. So 369 00:13:20,794 --> 00:13:23,115 the value, though, is that if you can 370 00:13:23,115 --> 00:13:23,615 pull, 371 00:13:24,475 --> 00:13:27,294 a body up, if you can find somebody's 372 00:13:27,355 --> 00:13:27,855 bones, 373 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,700 the there are some bones that have 374 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,639 very limited ability to pull DNA out of. 375 00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:36,139 Even though the what you need for DNA 376 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:36,940 is 377 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:39,799 less way less than a the grain of 378 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:40,215 salt. 379 00:13:40,695 --> 00:13:43,175 You just need the tiniest thing for DNA. 380 00:13:43,175 --> 00:13:44,934 But in order to get a good quality 381 00:13:44,934 --> 00:13:45,675 of DNA, 382 00:13:46,295 --> 00:13:46,795 you, 383 00:13:47,175 --> 00:13:49,735 you're not gonna pull up finger bones. You 384 00:13:49,735 --> 00:13:51,495 know, a phalanges not gonna help you out 385 00:13:51,495 --> 00:13:52,475 so much. Right? 386 00:13:53,095 --> 00:13:55,675 You need certain bones like an ankle bone, 387 00:13:56,759 --> 00:13:59,080 or maybe a thigh bone, something that's, 388 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:00,860 in your clavicle, 389 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:01,820 maybe. 390 00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:04,379 So there are certain bones that are better 391 00:14:04,839 --> 00:14:07,559 that even over time, they won't have degraded 392 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,000 and you'll be able to get DNA out 393 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,019 of. And so that's where they bring in 394 00:14:11,634 --> 00:14:12,615 forensic anthropologists. 395 00:14:13,554 --> 00:14:14,355 And there are, 396 00:14:15,315 --> 00:14:16,834 and that's what I tried to I wanted 397 00:14:16,834 --> 00:14:18,695 to weave into the story is the idea 398 00:14:18,754 --> 00:14:21,254 of how and what you do with DNA, 399 00:14:21,394 --> 00:14:23,075 where you get it, and who can help 400 00:14:23,075 --> 00:14:25,909 us find it. Because land Leslie and Shannon 401 00:14:25,909 --> 00:14:27,669 can't pick up the bones and say for 402 00:14:27,669 --> 00:14:30,230 sure these bones have DNA in them. The 403 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:33,690 forensic anthropologists can't. So they tap forensic anthropologists 404 00:14:33,909 --> 00:14:36,470 who work in the the finest places in 405 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:37,129 the country, 406 00:14:37,509 --> 00:14:39,610 at the Frost Center up in Northern Michigan 407 00:14:40,125 --> 00:14:42,285 and at the Body Farm in Tennessee, which 408 00:14:42,285 --> 00:14:43,965 has also has a real name. But those 409 00:14:43,965 --> 00:14:45,745 places have forensic anthropologists 410 00:14:46,445 --> 00:14:46,945 who, 411 00:14:49,804 --> 00:14:52,285 imagine the Frost Center and the Body Farm. 412 00:14:52,285 --> 00:14:55,049 What those places are are places where people 413 00:14:55,049 --> 00:14:56,190 like Leslie Larson 414 00:14:56,970 --> 00:14:57,470 train 415 00:14:57,929 --> 00:14:59,850 to dig bodies out of the ground and 416 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:01,850 safely get bodies and other evidence out of 417 00:15:01,850 --> 00:15:03,929 the ground. And that's what The Body Farm 418 00:15:03,929 --> 00:15:06,009 is in Tennessee, where Leslie now actually does 419 00:15:06,009 --> 00:15:08,250 some training too, provides the training because she's 420 00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:09,389 such a world expert. 421 00:15:09,850 --> 00:15:12,784 And the Frost Center, the only place in 422 00:15:12,784 --> 00:15:15,584 North America where you can try to dig 423 00:15:15,584 --> 00:15:16,725 up a frozen body. 424 00:15:18,544 --> 00:15:19,845 Well, the forensic 425 00:15:20,704 --> 00:15:22,784 anthropologist, I guess, plays a key role in 426 00:15:22,784 --> 00:15:25,445 the chapter it was titled, He Was Filleted 427 00:15:25,664 --> 00:15:26,164 Open, 428 00:15:26,990 --> 00:15:29,809 which is just a disturbing, brutal, but 429 00:15:30,509 --> 00:15:32,909 describe what they found with this this murder 430 00:15:32,909 --> 00:15:33,409 victim. 431 00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:37,470 For I think this really speaks to who 432 00:15:37,470 --> 00:15:38,450 Leslie is. 433 00:15:39,764 --> 00:15:40,585 Leslie Larson 434 00:15:41,845 --> 00:15:44,985 started out as a farm kid in Wisconsin, 435 00:15:45,764 --> 00:15:47,924 and she is as nice as a farm 436 00:15:47,924 --> 00:15:50,565 kid in Wisconsin would be. And she always 437 00:15:50,565 --> 00:15:52,345 was fascinated by archaeologists, 438 00:15:53,179 --> 00:15:55,360 and she thought she would become an archaeologist 439 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:57,039 in working in Egypt, 440 00:15:58,139 --> 00:15:59,839 possibly or someplace else. 441 00:16:00,220 --> 00:16:01,179 But she really, 442 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:04,959 also was fascinated by serial murders and 443 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:08,399 the people who solve serial murder cases. 444 00:16:09,065 --> 00:16:10,365 And she had an opportunity, 445 00:16:11,544 --> 00:16:13,144 while she was in college to work and 446 00:16:13,144 --> 00:16:15,304 intern at the f internship at the FBI 447 00:16:15,304 --> 00:16:17,544 in our behavioral unit, the profiling unit, if 448 00:16:17,544 --> 00:16:19,725 you can imagine how cool that was. 449 00:16:20,264 --> 00:16:22,950 And that really cooked her, like, she had 450 00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:24,070 to do this. She had to come to 451 00:16:24,070 --> 00:16:25,529 the FBI to work, she decided. 452 00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:27,370 In the very first 453 00:16:27,750 --> 00:16:29,590 you know, when she first started working at 454 00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:30,250 the FBI, 455 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:34,950 the idea of working on the forensics teams, 456 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:36,149 a lot of people come to me and 457 00:16:36,149 --> 00:16:37,884 ask. I'm sure you hear it too in 458 00:16:37,884 --> 00:16:40,044 your business. People will say, well, I wanna 459 00:16:40,044 --> 00:16:41,264 be a crime scene, 460 00:16:41,725 --> 00:16:43,024 you know, evidence collector. 461 00:16:43,964 --> 00:16:45,725 Most of those jobs and and all of 462 00:16:45,725 --> 00:16:47,404 those jobs in the FBI, they're what we 463 00:16:47,404 --> 00:16:49,884 call ancillary jobs. You don't do that. You 464 00:16:49,884 --> 00:16:52,040 might be a, you might work bank robberies 465 00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:54,820 and you're on the evidence collection team, right, 466 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:55,639 on the ERT. 467 00:16:56,420 --> 00:16:59,639 You might work national security and you're on 468 00:16:59,860 --> 00:17:00,679 the ERT. 469 00:17:01,379 --> 00:17:05,000 So Leslie, who now runs the Detroit ERT, 470 00:17:05,059 --> 00:17:08,795 evidence recovery team, who is response team, who 471 00:17:08,795 --> 00:17:11,195 is, which is like a 40 member team, 472 00:17:11,195 --> 00:17:13,535 third busiest team in in The United States. 473 00:17:13,994 --> 00:17:16,075 Leslie is back if you day take it 474 00:17:16,075 --> 00:17:17,615 back to when she was a kid, 475 00:17:17,994 --> 00:17:20,255 she didn't even know these teams existed. 476 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:21,339 She just 477 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,580 knew that it would be really cool 478 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,839 to dig people up and that she really 479 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:28,920 loved working mass murders, and she put those 480 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,160 together. So she goes to the FBI office 481 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,820 and her first job is just very minor, 482 00:17:33,934 --> 00:17:36,015 but she volunteers to work on the team 483 00:17:36,015 --> 00:17:38,894 and ends up her very first time she 484 00:17:38,894 --> 00:17:39,634 goes out, 485 00:17:40,255 --> 00:17:42,095 she's with her team leader, Ken, and he 486 00:17:42,095 --> 00:17:42,595 says, 487 00:17:43,294 --> 00:17:45,535 look down there, and she sees a body 488 00:17:45,535 --> 00:17:46,835 that's filleted open. 489 00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:49,029 And another one of her team members is, 490 00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:51,130 like, throwing up on the side. 491 00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:53,509 And, he turns to her, and he says, 492 00:17:53,509 --> 00:17:55,109 like, that doesn't bother you. And she's like, 493 00:17:55,109 --> 00:17:56,710 no. It's cool. She said it was the 494 00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:58,889 first body she'd ever seen. 495 00:17:59,525 --> 00:18:01,684 And so he said, well well, since you 496 00:18:01,684 --> 00:18:03,204 think it's cool, go down the steps and 497 00:18:03,204 --> 00:18:05,444 get it. And so she did. Now this 498 00:18:05,444 --> 00:18:07,845 was a local murder case, in Milwaukee at 499 00:18:07,845 --> 00:18:09,605 the time. It was, you know, it wasn't 500 00:18:09,605 --> 00:18:12,164 the FBI's case, but I think it that 501 00:18:12,164 --> 00:18:14,904 really solidified that she, first of all, 502 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:17,819 has a stronger stomach than I do. And, 503 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:20,960 and she didn't and that she found that 504 00:18:21,179 --> 00:18:22,399 how people are killed 505 00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:25,579 and why they're killed fascinating, and that's really 506 00:18:25,579 --> 00:18:27,179 what led her to where she is today. 507 00:18:27,179 --> 00:18:29,605 She just can't do dig up somebody. She 508 00:18:29,605 --> 00:18:31,785 wants to know how and why they died 509 00:18:31,924 --> 00:18:33,224 and and who did it. 510 00:18:33,684 --> 00:18:34,244 Both of the, 511 00:18:35,444 --> 00:18:35,944 investigators 512 00:18:36,404 --> 00:18:38,585 received great satisfaction in it from 513 00:18:39,444 --> 00:18:39,944 identifying 514 00:18:40,980 --> 00:18:42,740 remains and then being able to tell their 515 00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:45,220 family what happened. And there's the case of 516 00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:47,079 a teenage girl who had disappeared 517 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:48,599 after school. 518 00:18:48,980 --> 00:18:51,220 Body was later found in an abandoned building, 519 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:51,720 but 520 00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:55,640 forensic genealogy and all didn't exist. 521 00:18:56,265 --> 00:18:57,005 What happens 522 00:18:57,464 --> 00:18:58,365 in that case? 523 00:18:59,224 --> 00:19:00,525 Yeah. A lot of those cases, 524 00:19:00,825 --> 00:19:03,065 are out there. And Shannon and you're absolutely 525 00:19:03,065 --> 00:19:04,765 right. Shannon Jones is 526 00:19:05,065 --> 00:19:06,684 is changing lives today. 527 00:19:07,065 --> 00:19:09,065 You know, I watched as they spent five 528 00:19:09,065 --> 00:19:11,484 years digging up more than 200 bodies. 529 00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:14,369 All of those cases have to the DNA 530 00:19:14,450 --> 00:19:15,809 the bones have to go to a lab, 531 00:19:15,809 --> 00:19:17,250 and then the lab has to get good 532 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:19,169 DNA, and then the DNA has to be 533 00:19:19,169 --> 00:19:22,289 identified and matched to somebody. And, otherwise, you 534 00:19:22,289 --> 00:19:23,429 don't have an identification. 535 00:19:23,970 --> 00:19:25,490 You know, if you have a missing brother 536 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:26,230 or a sister, 537 00:19:26,914 --> 00:19:28,775 somebody needs to have your DNA 538 00:19:29,154 --> 00:19:30,994 or a diff or a missing cousin or 539 00:19:30,994 --> 00:19:32,835 an uncle. Somebody has to have your DNA 540 00:19:32,835 --> 00:19:35,315 in order to be able to identify that 541 00:19:35,315 --> 00:19:37,954 missing person. There's also some other techniques. Genetic 542 00:19:37,954 --> 00:19:40,275 genealogy is a is a technique that I 543 00:19:40,275 --> 00:19:41,794 describe in the book. I won't go into 544 00:19:41,794 --> 00:19:44,309 here. But these incredible ways that we can 545 00:19:44,309 --> 00:19:46,730 identify people, and the 546 00:19:47,029 --> 00:19:48,809 idea that somebody is missing, 547 00:19:49,269 --> 00:19:50,730 how do you find them, 548 00:19:51,109 --> 00:19:52,009 is is so 549 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:54,970 it's such a challenge, and they're and they 550 00:19:55,255 --> 00:19:58,315 they're for so long, there wasn't this additional 551 00:19:58,534 --> 00:20:01,174 step that allowed them to match these people 552 00:20:01,174 --> 00:20:01,674 together. 553 00:20:01,974 --> 00:20:05,115 So, you know, somebody disappeared forty years ago. 554 00:20:05,255 --> 00:20:08,134 Now through genetic genealogy, through the work that 555 00:20:08,214 --> 00:20:10,054 the kind of work that Shannon and Leslie 556 00:20:10,054 --> 00:20:13,079 are doing, they can do that, and then 557 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:15,619 they can make they can positively identify somebody 558 00:20:15,619 --> 00:20:17,940 who's buried in the ground. And then what 559 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:19,940 we're seeing now and hearing now, I'll talk 560 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:20,599 to Shannon 561 00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:22,740 or Leslie, and they'll say, I knocked on 562 00:20:22,740 --> 00:20:23,319 a door. 563 00:20:23,835 --> 00:20:26,414 I asked this woman, where is your father? 564 00:20:27,034 --> 00:20:29,934 She says, oh, he's ill. He's inside. 565 00:20:30,394 --> 00:20:32,095 Where's your your biological 566 00:20:32,394 --> 00:20:34,954 father? Oh, he left my mom when my 567 00:20:34,954 --> 00:20:36,015 mom was pregnant. 568 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:39,000 And and Shannon Leslie have to say, 569 00:20:39,380 --> 00:20:41,400 well, he didn't actually leave her. 570 00:20:41,859 --> 00:20:43,859 He went down to Detroit, and he was 571 00:20:43,859 --> 00:20:44,359 murdered. 572 00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:46,820 And so here's a woman who is an 573 00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:50,519 adult taking care of her her ill father 574 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:52,119 that that raised her. 575 00:20:52,465 --> 00:20:52,965 And 576 00:20:54,225 --> 00:20:56,545 and they are changing lives because this woman, 577 00:20:56,545 --> 00:20:58,725 for instance, her father was 578 00:20:59,105 --> 00:21:00,005 one of 579 00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:01,125 the only 580 00:21:01,505 --> 00:21:04,565 unidentified person who was buried buried unidentified 581 00:21:04,945 --> 00:21:07,440 of 11 people killed by a serial murder 582 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:10,099 in Detroit at that time. Guy was convicted, 583 00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:11,059 went to jail, 584 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,440 but one person was never identified. It turns 585 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,299 out it was this woman's father, 586 00:21:15,679 --> 00:21:18,099 and she had spent her whole childhood wondering 587 00:21:18,159 --> 00:21:20,414 about who her father was, where he was, 588 00:21:20,414 --> 00:21:22,815 why he left, what was he like, would 589 00:21:22,815 --> 00:21:23,714 he come home. 590 00:21:24,414 --> 00:21:26,255 And now, you know, as a 30 year 591 00:21:26,255 --> 00:21:26,994 old adult, 592 00:21:27,375 --> 00:21:29,294 she knows the answers, and she knows where 593 00:21:29,294 --> 00:21:30,034 he's buried. 594 00:21:30,494 --> 00:21:31,875 That's changing lives. 595 00:21:34,609 --> 00:21:36,869 And you talk in the book about a 596 00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:38,309 box castle, 597 00:21:38,849 --> 00:21:40,630 which was a temporary warehouse 598 00:21:41,329 --> 00:21:41,829 where 599 00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:43,990 hundreds of unidentified 600 00:21:44,369 --> 00:21:45,509 remains were stored. 601 00:21:46,384 --> 00:21:48,704 Is this this is an addition to what 602 00:21:48,704 --> 00:21:50,004 you're finding in the 603 00:21:50,625 --> 00:21:54,004 these these graves, unidentified graves at a cemetery? 604 00:21:54,625 --> 00:21:56,704 Yeah. They were actually just the files and 605 00:21:56,704 --> 00:21:57,924 the pic the photographs 606 00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:00,599 and the other evidence that that that Shannon 607 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:02,139 needs to solve these cases. 608 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:04,679 So she would maybe they could get bones 609 00:22:04,679 --> 00:22:06,599 out of a box, but the bones are 610 00:22:06,599 --> 00:22:08,759 just unidentified. But the bones are, if they 611 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:10,059 can find the right body, 612 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:12,139 tie back to a file 613 00:22:12,565 --> 00:22:15,125 that nobody's looked at that was a paper 614 00:22:15,125 --> 00:22:15,625 file 615 00:22:15,924 --> 00:22:17,285 that, you know, that nobody had looked at 616 00:22:17,285 --> 00:22:19,924 in fifty or sixty or seventy years that 617 00:22:19,924 --> 00:22:21,924 maybe had one sheet of paper or 10 618 00:22:21,924 --> 00:22:25,445 sheets of paper. But information includes that now 619 00:22:25,445 --> 00:22:26,424 Shannon said, 620 00:22:26,869 --> 00:22:28,970 you know, Shannon and Leslie say, 621 00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:31,269 you know, we have to close this case. 622 00:22:31,269 --> 00:22:33,369 We have to solve this murder, 623 00:22:33,670 --> 00:22:35,269 or we have to know that we can't 624 00:22:35,269 --> 00:22:36,490 solve it. It's unsolvable. 625 00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:39,289 What's in the file that maybe law enforcement 626 00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:41,609 didn't look at seriously enough? 627 00:22:41,934 --> 00:22:43,695 What kind of clothes were on the person? 628 00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:45,214 What kind of, as we call it, you 629 00:22:45,214 --> 00:22:47,615 know, in the business, pocket litter was taken 630 00:22:47,615 --> 00:22:48,974 off of them? What kind of stuff was 631 00:22:48,974 --> 00:22:51,615 in their pockets that might have that did 632 00:22:51,615 --> 00:22:53,695 somebody follow through and find out if there 633 00:22:53,695 --> 00:22:55,570 was pocket litter from somebody's, 634 00:22:56,009 --> 00:22:58,089 jacket that they were, you know, wearing and 635 00:22:58,089 --> 00:22:59,869 they were buried with their clothes? 636 00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:02,589 You know, people, are buried with their possessions 637 00:23:03,049 --> 00:23:03,950 in those circumstances. 638 00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:06,029 Is there something that 639 00:23:06,505 --> 00:23:08,605 that was mentioned in the file 640 00:23:09,224 --> 00:23:11,384 and then or or was in a file, 641 00:23:11,384 --> 00:23:13,704 a photograph that nobody followed up on? And 642 00:23:13,704 --> 00:23:15,784 then maybe the photograph was a an a 643 00:23:15,784 --> 00:23:17,244 picture at a park, 644 00:23:17,784 --> 00:23:19,509 that you can identify where the park is 645 00:23:19,509 --> 00:23:21,029 or a neighborhood with a sign in it 646 00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:22,890 or an address behind the house. 647 00:23:23,509 --> 00:23:25,509 When somebody went missing, they came and brought 648 00:23:25,509 --> 00:23:26,089 a picture, 649 00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:28,869 to the police and said, my brother's missing, 650 00:23:28,869 --> 00:23:30,490 but now there's no more information. 651 00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:32,569 All that stuff is disintegrated. 652 00:23:33,575 --> 00:23:35,494 So I think that the challenge that they 653 00:23:35,494 --> 00:23:37,815 had, and I think that's I guess the 654 00:23:37,815 --> 00:23:40,075 reason I said a box castle is that 655 00:23:40,454 --> 00:23:41,755 Shannon found herself, 656 00:23:42,855 --> 00:23:45,835 most comfortable with surrounding herself with those files, 657 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,799 those faces, those pictures, even if they were 658 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:49,299 pictures 659 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:52,740 taken from the medical examiner's office in very 660 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,779 a very what others might say is disgusting 661 00:23:55,919 --> 00:23:57,940 to look at pictures or scary pictures. 662 00:23:58,414 --> 00:24:00,414 But for her, it's a reality, the idea 663 00:24:00,414 --> 00:24:02,434 that these are people's brothers and sisters, 664 00:24:02,734 --> 00:24:05,794 you know, family members. To date, how many 665 00:24:06,335 --> 00:24:07,954 of the remains have been identified? 666 00:24:08,894 --> 00:24:11,694 There I haven't talked to the, ladies this 667 00:24:11,694 --> 00:24:14,200 week, but I think, we're about at thirty 668 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:14,700 five, 669 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,920 of the two hundred and some, which is 670 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,559 a really high percentage rate. These are people 671 00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:21,180 whose entire lives, 672 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,920 their family members and and distant family members 673 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,920 have changed forever because they've been able to 674 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,335 go and say, this is who this person 675 00:24:29,335 --> 00:24:30,914 was. Have they solved any 676 00:24:31,795 --> 00:24:33,475 the cause of their deaths in any of 677 00:24:33,475 --> 00:24:37,075 these 35 cases of who murdered them? A 678 00:24:37,075 --> 00:24:39,394 lot of them are pending. Right? They're pending 679 00:24:39,394 --> 00:24:41,734 where they haven't released that information. 680 00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:44,820 I think they have, many cases where they 681 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:46,900 have a pretty good idea of who it 682 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:47,400 is. 683 00:24:48,019 --> 00:24:49,700 But it's actually, if you think about it, 684 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:51,220 you know, it's kind of early on in 685 00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:53,400 terms of an investigative stand standpoint. 686 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:54,680 And some people, 687 00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:56,714 you know, I think it's I think it's 688 00:24:56,714 --> 00:24:57,214 also 689 00:24:57,914 --> 00:25:00,075 helpful, you know, especially in the in the 690 00:25:00,075 --> 00:25:01,214 true crime business. 691 00:25:01,515 --> 00:25:03,615 You know, we all want a simple answer 692 00:25:03,914 --> 00:25:04,414 to, 693 00:25:04,875 --> 00:25:05,454 you know, 694 00:25:06,234 --> 00:25:08,234 Sally was murdered and this guy murdered her, 695 00:25:08,234 --> 00:25:09,535 and now he's going to jail. 696 00:25:10,059 --> 00:25:11,340 You know, and I think as an FBI 697 00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:13,099 agent, you know, I spent, twenty years in 698 00:25:13,099 --> 00:25:15,500 the FBI. I spent many years, as a 699 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:16,720 prosecutor in Chicago. 700 00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:19,740 We want that, but we also know in 701 00:25:19,740 --> 00:25:21,420 the business you worked in the business long 702 00:25:21,420 --> 00:25:22,320 time to know 703 00:25:22,924 --> 00:25:24,924 true crime is never that is that never 704 00:25:24,924 --> 00:25:27,804 that straightforward. Right? No. It takes time. And 705 00:25:27,804 --> 00:25:28,304 sometimes, 706 00:25:28,605 --> 00:25:30,045 say you have a brother and he kills 707 00:25:30,045 --> 00:25:30,704 his brother, 708 00:25:31,404 --> 00:25:32,944 and that was thirty years ago. 709 00:25:33,804 --> 00:25:36,444 Does the family want that brother convicted? Probably 710 00:25:36,444 --> 00:25:38,519 not. Right? So I think that it's more 711 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,059 complicated, it's more messy. 712 00:25:40,599 --> 00:25:42,119 In in addition to that, some of these 713 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,079 cases are, 714 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,299 children. Many of these cases are children. Babies. 715 00:25:46,679 --> 00:25:49,419 Right? Babies who are left, who are abandoned, 716 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,179 left to freeze to death. 717 00:25:52,924 --> 00:25:54,865 Even if we identify the baby 718 00:25:55,565 --> 00:25:58,525 and we can get to possibly the person 719 00:25:58,525 --> 00:25:59,904 who might be, 720 00:26:01,325 --> 00:26:01,825 responsible, 721 00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:04,765 that might be a person who no one's 722 00:26:04,765 --> 00:26:07,085 gonna testify against because that person has a 723 00:26:07,085 --> 00:26:08,960 new life now, and they don't wanna 724 00:26:09,419 --> 00:26:12,160 tell. Nobody wants to ruin the lives that's 725 00:26:12,220 --> 00:26:13,279 existing now. 726 00:26:14,059 --> 00:26:16,079 In some cases, they're finding that, 727 00:26:16,619 --> 00:26:18,940 the person who they think committed the murder 728 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:20,000 has is deceased. 729 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:20,880 Yes. 730 00:26:21,325 --> 00:26:23,404 So I think it still allows for closing 731 00:26:23,404 --> 00:26:23,904 cases, 732 00:26:24,285 --> 00:26:26,545 and it still allows for connecting family members. 733 00:26:26,684 --> 00:26:29,565 But boy, it's not, 200 bodies bought dug 734 00:26:29,565 --> 00:26:32,525 up, 200 cold case murders solved, because life 735 00:26:32,525 --> 00:26:33,505 isn't that way. 736 00:26:34,609 --> 00:26:36,950 Well, at some point, does there the investigation 737 00:26:37,089 --> 00:26:38,549 moves into a forest, 738 00:26:39,329 --> 00:26:41,109 finding finding bodies in a forest? 739 00:26:41,490 --> 00:26:42,690 The people in, 740 00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:46,049 in Pennsylvania, law enforcement who came back after 741 00:26:46,049 --> 00:26:46,950 them in Pennsylvania 742 00:26:47,649 --> 00:26:47,889 asked, 743 00:26:48,694 --> 00:26:51,174 hey. We've got bodies. They're buried here. We 744 00:26:51,174 --> 00:26:52,714 think we have a five or six. 745 00:26:53,015 --> 00:26:55,035 Leslie, can you and your team come in 746 00:26:55,255 --> 00:26:58,214 and do that? And so they do just 747 00:26:58,214 --> 00:27:00,454 the same thing there. And so now they're 748 00:27:00,454 --> 00:27:02,394 beginning to hear from other police departments 749 00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:03,799 to say, hey. 750 00:27:04,099 --> 00:27:06,179 We think we have this. Could you help 751 00:27:06,179 --> 00:27:07,859 us to figure out how to do this? 752 00:27:07,859 --> 00:27:10,679 So it's pretty fascinating. And also changes in, 753 00:27:11,859 --> 00:27:14,019 a term, that, you know, is it was 754 00:27:14,019 --> 00:27:15,960 new to me at the time, genetic genealogy, 755 00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:18,359 where they don't even have the DNA. 756 00:27:19,275 --> 00:27:20,795 They have the DNA of a person they 757 00:27:20,795 --> 00:27:21,615 can't identify, 758 00:27:22,234 --> 00:27:23,775 but they have other people 759 00:27:24,475 --> 00:27:27,355 that they can match until they find it's 760 00:27:27,355 --> 00:27:29,855 like a math equation. They have the DNA. 761 00:27:29,914 --> 00:27:31,755 They don't know who the person is, but 762 00:27:31,755 --> 00:27:34,015 they can tear the DNA apart 763 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,039 in terms of the qualities of it until 764 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:38,980 they can go back to find somebody 765 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,179 on, who who is related to these people. 766 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,839 And then when they do that, they're able 767 00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:45,299 to actually piece together 768 00:27:45,679 --> 00:27:48,000 and identify a person even though they don't 769 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,345 have a direct match to that DNA. It's 770 00:27:50,345 --> 00:27:52,664 crazy stuff they're doing. Yeah. They can find 771 00:27:52,664 --> 00:27:54,184 somebody on the family tree 772 00:27:54,585 --> 00:27:56,205 Right. Through like a 773 00:27:56,585 --> 00:27:57,085 23andMe, 774 00:27:57,464 --> 00:27:59,085 although I don't know if they allow. 775 00:27:59,785 --> 00:28:01,964 Some of the DNA registers 776 00:28:02,424 --> 00:28:03,085 like that 777 00:28:04,089 --> 00:28:07,369 permit law enforcement to examine, others don't. So 778 00:28:07,529 --> 00:28:09,450 Right. Right. Yeah. And I yeah. And I 779 00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:10,730 think that's part of it. It's kind of 780 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:12,829 funny. I know that, as you can imagine, 781 00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:15,309 they need search warrants to do things. 782 00:28:15,884 --> 00:28:17,484 Sometimes they'll knock on a door and say 783 00:28:17,805 --> 00:28:19,505 somebody will say, my 784 00:28:20,205 --> 00:28:23,085 family member is missing, and and Shannon will 785 00:28:23,085 --> 00:28:25,505 say because she's works the missing person cases. 786 00:28:25,644 --> 00:28:27,325 And she'll say, well, can you give us 787 00:28:27,325 --> 00:28:29,250 a DNA swab so we can see if 788 00:28:29,329 --> 00:28:31,009 there's any matches that we can find out 789 00:28:31,009 --> 00:28:32,930 there? And they'll say, oh, yeah. No. We 790 00:28:33,089 --> 00:28:34,609 I don't I don't wanna give you any 791 00:28:34,609 --> 00:28:36,390 d n a DNA cheek swab. 792 00:28:37,569 --> 00:28:39,970 And that then then they'll tell her in 793 00:28:39,970 --> 00:28:40,950 the same sentence 794 00:28:41,329 --> 00:28:44,150 that they've already done that at ancestry.com. 795 00:28:44,394 --> 00:28:46,634 You know? She's like, you'll give millions of 796 00:28:46,634 --> 00:28:48,075 people in ancestry.com 797 00:28:48,075 --> 00:28:49,434 your DNA, but you won't give it to 798 00:28:49,434 --> 00:28:51,434 the law enforcement department that's trying to find 799 00:28:51,434 --> 00:28:53,535 your missing loved one. Right. So 800 00:28:53,914 --> 00:28:55,914 a little bit of little bit of thinking 801 00:28:55,914 --> 00:28:57,515 it through out there. But I think that 802 00:28:57,515 --> 00:29:00,210 the you know, overall, the thing that's fascinating 803 00:29:00,210 --> 00:29:01,809 to me about and the reason I decided 804 00:29:01,809 --> 00:29:03,190 to write, you know, women 805 00:29:03,569 --> 00:29:05,670 who talk to the dead, this book, is 806 00:29:05,890 --> 00:29:06,390 because, 807 00:29:07,490 --> 00:29:08,150 you know, 808 00:29:08,849 --> 00:29:09,990 the idea that 809 00:29:11,664 --> 00:29:14,325 the idea that there are so many people 810 00:29:15,265 --> 00:29:15,765 who, 811 00:29:17,105 --> 00:29:18,005 who are unidentified 812 00:29:18,305 --> 00:29:20,545 and buried is just the nature of things 813 00:29:20,545 --> 00:29:22,704 that we've done things for years that way. 814 00:29:22,704 --> 00:29:25,265 And and and even when Shannon started, you 815 00:29:25,265 --> 00:29:27,259 know, she she said, why aren't we taking 816 00:29:27,259 --> 00:29:29,419 DNA before we put anybody into the ground? 817 00:29:29,419 --> 00:29:31,500 Well, we couldn't do that years ago. Right? 818 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:32,940 But we can do it now. But who 819 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:34,859 else is doing it now? And do people 820 00:29:34,859 --> 00:29:35,359 know 821 00:29:35,740 --> 00:29:37,259 that if they have a loved one who's 822 00:29:37,259 --> 00:29:39,900 missing, who maybe was went missing fifty years 823 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:41,534 ago, they might be able to find that 824 00:29:41,534 --> 00:29:42,034 person 825 00:29:42,494 --> 00:29:45,054 if they're willing to do the kind of 826 00:29:45,054 --> 00:29:46,835 genetic genealogy efforts 827 00:29:47,134 --> 00:29:49,774 that they're doing in Detroit today. It sounds 828 00:29:49,774 --> 00:29:51,315 to me like we need a 829 00:29:52,255 --> 00:29:53,554 DNA registry 830 00:29:53,934 --> 00:29:55,075 for missing persons. 831 00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:56,539 You know 832 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,220 what? There is one. 833 00:29:58,759 --> 00:29:59,500 The DOJ 834 00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:01,580 justice department set one up 835 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:03,420 not too many years ago, 836 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,059 and and just for that reason. Because 837 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,019 there were so many people who didn't know 838 00:30:09,424 --> 00:30:10,865 and didn't know what to do with theirs. 839 00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,404 And there are independent organizations, 840 00:30:13,184 --> 00:30:13,424 but, 841 00:30:13,984 --> 00:30:15,984 but they would come to law enforcement and 842 00:30:15,984 --> 00:30:18,544 say, well, put my put my DNA in 843 00:30:18,544 --> 00:30:21,720 your registry, and the FBI's DNA database is 844 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:22,380 for criminals. 845 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:24,839 Right. So the justice department said, alright. We're 846 00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:26,700 gonna set one up from a civil standpoint, 847 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,079 called it's called NamUs. You can set it 848 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:30,299 up from a civil standpoint, 849 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:32,679 and it's it's how to find people who 850 00:30:32,679 --> 00:30:33,339 are missing. 851 00:30:34,164 --> 00:30:36,484 How and and, actually, if you are missing 852 00:30:36,484 --> 00:30:38,424 somebody if you were missing your brother, 853 00:30:39,285 --> 00:30:42,025 you could go into NamUs yourself, put information 854 00:30:42,164 --> 00:30:44,025 in there, and search for it yourself. 855 00:30:44,404 --> 00:30:47,625 Mhmm. It's not a FBI controlled or DOJ 856 00:30:48,019 --> 00:30:50,839 Department of Justice controlled database. It's a database 857 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:51,639 that's designed, 858 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:54,980 paid for by the government, set up to 859 00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:58,019 the benefit of everybody who's out there who 860 00:30:58,019 --> 00:31:00,440 would do anything they could possibly do 861 00:31:00,740 --> 00:31:03,234 to find their love missing loved ones. And 862 00:31:03,234 --> 00:31:04,054 I think that's 863 00:31:04,835 --> 00:31:07,634 the attitude that Shannon and Leslie have is 864 00:31:07,634 --> 00:31:10,034 we will do anything to help people find 865 00:31:10,034 --> 00:31:11,875 their missing loved ones if they're looking for 866 00:31:11,875 --> 00:31:13,095 them because it's 867 00:31:13,954 --> 00:31:14,454 unexplainable 868 00:31:15,315 --> 00:31:18,134 how much agony these people suffer for years, 869 00:31:18,460 --> 00:31:22,000 not knowing when when somebody just disappears. Right. 870 00:31:22,619 --> 00:31:23,900 I do think and I let me just 871 00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:25,180 say this one other thing. You know, I 872 00:31:25,180 --> 00:31:26,860 call this book Women Who Talk to the 873 00:31:26,860 --> 00:31:27,360 Dead. 874 00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:28,240 And 875 00:31:28,539 --> 00:31:30,299 I had a guy say to me once, 876 00:31:30,299 --> 00:31:30,442 why why why do you point out that 877 00:31:30,442 --> 00:31:30,584 it's women who are doing this investigative work? 878 00:31:30,584 --> 00:31:31,119 Why what's 879 00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:32,400 the 880 00:31:33,434 --> 00:31:33,934 big 881 00:31:35,355 --> 00:31:36,701 deal about putting out women? Why do you 882 00:31:36,701 --> 00:31:38,174 have to bring gender into it? 883 00:31:38,715 --> 00:31:39,215 And 884 00:31:39,835 --> 00:31:41,134 and I I said, 885 00:31:41,755 --> 00:31:43,195 you know, at first, I was kind of 886 00:31:43,195 --> 00:31:45,450 like, oh, well, maybe I'm being, you know, 887 00:31:45,849 --> 00:31:47,149 non PC or something. 888 00:31:47,529 --> 00:31:48,929 But in fact, you know, it it is 889 00:31:48,929 --> 00:31:51,289 a gender issue here. The people who did 890 00:31:51,289 --> 00:31:52,029 this work, 891 00:31:52,409 --> 00:31:54,490 who who spearheaded this, who led the whole 892 00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:56,649 effort for who is who are continuing to 893 00:31:56,649 --> 00:31:59,524 lead it today, a female FBI agent, a 894 00:31:59,524 --> 00:32:01,944 female detective in master sergeant 895 00:32:02,244 --> 00:32:02,984 now in Detroit, 896 00:32:03,365 --> 00:32:03,865 female, 897 00:32:04,804 --> 00:32:05,304 anthropologists, 898 00:32:05,765 --> 00:32:08,984 five female forensic anthropologists, female prosecutors, 899 00:32:09,765 --> 00:32:10,265 female 900 00:32:10,804 --> 00:32:12,184 Michigan State Police 901 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,289 Inspector who's in charge of missing in Michigan. 902 00:32:15,589 --> 00:32:17,910 Every time I called somebody, they'd say, you 903 00:32:17,910 --> 00:32:19,589 should call so and so. You should call 904 00:32:19,589 --> 00:32:22,329 so and so. So whatever the circumstances are, 905 00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:24,490 maybe it's because women don't, 906 00:32:25,575 --> 00:32:28,214 you know, they they they maybe are more 907 00:32:28,214 --> 00:32:28,714 nurturing 908 00:32:29,095 --> 00:32:29,595 nurturers, 909 00:32:29,974 --> 00:32:31,515 and they don't wanna give up. 910 00:32:32,214 --> 00:32:35,115 Maybe they see their loved ones as missing. 911 00:32:35,255 --> 00:32:37,274 But whatever the circumstances are, 912 00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:38,730 it it's factual 913 00:32:39,109 --> 00:32:41,289 that 70 of police files 914 00:32:41,589 --> 00:32:42,329 were ignored, 915 00:32:43,589 --> 00:32:46,169 you know, for a long time, 300 916 00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:49,190 cold case murders that nobody did anything about 917 00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:51,929 until Shannon said, I'm gonna solve these cases. 918 00:32:52,414 --> 00:32:54,994 And it's an incredible story of how 919 00:32:55,615 --> 00:32:57,554 of the hurdles that she had to overcome 920 00:32:57,615 --> 00:32:59,375 to do that and and the successes that 921 00:32:59,375 --> 00:33:00,755 they've had because of it. 922 00:33:01,774 --> 00:33:04,194 Your book concludes with Finding 923 00:33:04,494 --> 00:33:04,994 Anita. 924 00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:08,230 Oh, don't give don't no spoiler alerts though. 925 00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:09,369 Yeah. But go ahead. 926 00:33:09,670 --> 00:33:10,170 So 927 00:33:13,350 --> 00:33:14,809 without spoiling it, 928 00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:16,950 kind of give me the the headline on 929 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:17,690 the story. 930 00:33:19,164 --> 00:33:20,684 You know, I I wanted to make sure 931 00:33:20,684 --> 00:33:22,365 that the readers knew some of the some 932 00:33:22,365 --> 00:33:23,105 of the victims, 933 00:33:23,965 --> 00:33:25,904 some of the people who disappeared were found 934 00:33:26,125 --> 00:33:27,904 and reconnected with family members. 935 00:33:28,605 --> 00:33:29,105 So, 936 00:33:30,365 --> 00:33:32,305 Anita is one of those individuals. 937 00:33:32,845 --> 00:33:33,345 And 938 00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:36,740 And, and I thought that was a really 939 00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:37,240 important 940 00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:38,200 story 941 00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:40,740 to tell because I was there, you know, 942 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:41,720 through that time, 943 00:33:42,259 --> 00:33:43,320 a little bit about 944 00:33:43,779 --> 00:33:46,279 her background and the people who were looking 945 00:33:46,420 --> 00:33:47,720 for her from the beginning. 946 00:33:48,464 --> 00:33:48,964 The, 947 00:33:49,825 --> 00:33:51,045 you know, I've talked to, 948 00:33:52,224 --> 00:33:52,724 families 949 00:33:54,065 --> 00:33:56,704 of cold case victims. I mean, they have 950 00:33:56,704 --> 00:33:58,964 a body and everything, but it's the case 951 00:33:59,345 --> 00:34:01,285 is cold. I mean, in Fort Worth 952 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,460 alone, there are a thousand cold cases, nationally 953 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,640 300,000. 954 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,940 It's still like a Right. 955 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,699 It's a silent scandal. 956 00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:10,300 I think that's true. 957 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,500 And and I think that we mix them 958 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:14,699 together because 959 00:34:15,094 --> 00:34:17,734 imagine, you know, what we dealt with, during 960 00:34:17,734 --> 00:34:18,234 COVID. 961 00:34:18,934 --> 00:34:20,795 Imagine how many people were buried 962 00:34:21,255 --> 00:34:22,154 after COVID, 963 00:34:22,614 --> 00:34:24,295 during the time of COVID. And many of 964 00:34:24,295 --> 00:34:26,054 those were people who are picked up off 965 00:34:26,054 --> 00:34:28,070 the street. And, you know, who's looking for 966 00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:29,429 those people? And I think that's part of 967 00:34:29,429 --> 00:34:31,750 what this story speaks to is Mhmm. There 968 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:34,410 are a lot of people who die, some 969 00:34:34,469 --> 00:34:37,989 by natural causes, some by nefarious purposes. Who's 970 00:34:37,989 --> 00:34:40,164 looking for them? And and what are we 971 00:34:40,164 --> 00:34:41,924 what are we doing about that? But like 972 00:34:41,924 --> 00:34:43,385 you said, it's kind of a silent 973 00:34:43,764 --> 00:34:45,924 it's a silent story because those people are 974 00:34:45,924 --> 00:34:49,364 scooped up, you know, whether they're murdered or 975 00:34:49,364 --> 00:34:50,724 or you know, in the case of these 976 00:34:50,724 --> 00:34:53,065 cases in Detroit and so many other cities, 977 00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:56,710 they're scooped up, they're they're the medical examiner 978 00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:58,389 says, oh, this person was shot to death, 979 00:34:58,389 --> 00:35:00,389 this person was killed, this person was stabbed 980 00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:02,650 to death, this person was burned to death, 981 00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:05,289 this person was drowned on purpose. And then 982 00:35:05,429 --> 00:35:07,829 they're they're put into a they're put into 983 00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:09,755 a box, they're a bag in the ground, 984 00:35:09,755 --> 00:35:11,595 and and they're never heard from again, and 985 00:35:11,595 --> 00:35:13,755 nobody ever thinks about it again. But the 986 00:35:13,755 --> 00:35:16,494 numbers continue to grow and continue to grow 987 00:35:16,715 --> 00:35:17,775 across the country. 988 00:35:19,355 --> 00:35:21,614 And, you know, as I tell this story, 989 00:35:21,630 --> 00:35:23,469 I was out not too long ago talking 990 00:35:23,469 --> 00:35:25,789 to, people about this new book, and, 991 00:35:27,150 --> 00:35:28,130 and it's so 992 00:35:28,509 --> 00:35:30,750 fascinating how many people say to me I 993 00:35:30,750 --> 00:35:32,289 mean, this this is fascinating. 994 00:35:32,589 --> 00:35:34,429 How many people say to me, yeah, you 995 00:35:34,429 --> 00:35:37,250 know, I have an uncle who, you know, 996 00:35:37,885 --> 00:35:40,144 we just kinda lost track of him because 997 00:35:40,285 --> 00:35:42,065 he was a little bit of a drifter, 998 00:35:42,285 --> 00:35:43,025 and then, 999 00:35:43,405 --> 00:35:45,164 you know, he used to write to my 1000 00:35:45,164 --> 00:35:47,485 my dad, but then, you know, after a 1001 00:35:47,485 --> 00:35:49,485 while, he wasn't writing anymore, and my dad 1002 00:35:49,485 --> 00:35:51,005 didn't really know how to get ahold of 1003 00:35:51,005 --> 00:35:52,465 him, and then he just disappeared. 1004 00:35:54,059 --> 00:35:56,000 There are so many people who have said 1005 00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:57,360 that to me. 1006 00:35:57,660 --> 00:36:00,160 And it's like, well, okay, your uncle, 1007 00:36:01,660 --> 00:36:03,420 what happened to him? I mean, if he 1008 00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:04,559 was still alive, 1009 00:36:05,355 --> 00:36:07,114 he would have probably been at least dropping 1010 00:36:07,114 --> 00:36:08,554 his brother a note if he was on 1011 00:36:08,554 --> 00:36:10,494 friendly terms with him all that time. 1012 00:36:11,034 --> 00:36:13,534 So maybe something bad did happen to him, 1013 00:36:13,914 --> 00:36:16,255 and he's buried in a pauper's grave somewhere. 1014 00:36:16,635 --> 00:36:17,994 I mean, that's the thing. Right? You you 1015 00:36:18,074 --> 00:36:19,675 like you were saying I I mean, I 1016 00:36:19,675 --> 00:36:21,970 urge people to think, who is missing from 1017 00:36:21,970 --> 00:36:22,710 your family? 1018 00:36:23,489 --> 00:36:25,110 Because you may be able to 1019 00:36:25,809 --> 00:36:28,789 heal that part of your broken family tree 1020 00:36:29,250 --> 00:36:31,110 if you do a little bit of digging, 1021 00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:32,769 if you do a do a little bit 1022 00:36:32,769 --> 00:36:34,050 of the things that, you know, I talk 1023 00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:35,110 about in the book. 1024 00:36:35,585 --> 00:36:37,844 Because there are people all over the country 1025 00:36:38,304 --> 00:36:40,625 who are buried in pauper's graves, and nobody 1026 00:36:40,625 --> 00:36:42,864 knows it. Because they dis right. They they're 1027 00:36:42,864 --> 00:36:45,125 underground. Who would look? Who would know? 1028 00:36:46,944 --> 00:36:50,065 The women of Operation United didn't set out 1029 00:36:50,065 --> 00:36:50,964 to make history. 1030 00:36:51,530 --> 00:36:53,369 They set out to give names back to 1031 00:36:53,369 --> 00:36:54,030 the nameless, 1032 00:36:54,329 --> 00:36:56,170 to speak for the murdered when no one 1033 00:36:56,170 --> 00:36:57,150 else would. 1034 00:36:57,609 --> 00:37:01,530 In muddy cemeteries and cluttered evidence rooms, they 1035 00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:04,409 rewrote the narrative for more than 200 1036 00:37:04,409 --> 00:37:05,389 forgotten victims, 1037 00:37:06,005 --> 00:37:08,804 and they're not done. Their work reminds us 1038 00:37:08,804 --> 00:37:11,445 that behind every cold case is a family 1039 00:37:11,445 --> 00:37:11,945 waiting, 1040 00:37:12,405 --> 00:37:14,744 a truth buried, a name lost. 1041 00:37:15,445 --> 00:37:17,605 If you or someone you know is searching 1042 00:37:17,605 --> 00:37:20,005 for a missing loved one, there's a tool 1043 00:37:20,005 --> 00:37:20,985 that can help. 1044 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,980 The National Missing and Unidentified 1045 00:37:24,359 --> 00:37:26,219 Persons System, or NamUs, 1046 00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:29,099 is a centralized nationwide resource 1047 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,639 that bridges the gap between the missing and 1048 00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:32,380 the unidentified. 1049 00:37:33,695 --> 00:37:36,594 At any moment, more than 100,000 1050 00:37:36,815 --> 00:37:37,315 people 1051 00:37:37,614 --> 00:37:40,355 are reported missing across The United States. 1052 00:37:41,295 --> 00:37:44,494 Medical examiners, corridors, and investigators are working to 1053 00:37:44,494 --> 00:37:45,635 identify over 1054 00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:47,069 11,000 1055 00:37:47,130 --> 00:37:48,510 sets of human remains 1056 00:37:48,809 --> 00:37:49,550 right now. 1057 00:37:50,489 --> 00:37:52,269 NamUs connects those dots. 1058 00:37:52,809 --> 00:37:56,510 It offers families, law enforcement, and forensic experts 1059 00:37:56,889 --> 00:37:59,449 a way to match missing persons with the 1060 00:37:59,449 --> 00:37:59,949 unidentified. 1061 00:38:01,224 --> 00:38:04,744 And it provides critical forensic services at no 1062 00:38:04,744 --> 00:38:05,244 cost. 1063 00:38:06,344 --> 00:38:08,984 To learn more or submit a case, I 1064 00:38:08,984 --> 00:38:11,304 have included a link to the NamUs website 1065 00:38:11,304 --> 00:38:12,445 in the show notes. 1066 00:38:13,949 --> 00:38:14,449 Because 1067 00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:16,690 justice begins with a name, 1068 00:38:17,309 --> 00:38:19,809 and closure begins with knowing. 1069 00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:23,230 This is Robert Riggs reporting for the True 1070 00:38:23,230 --> 00:38:24,609 Crime Reporter podcast.