1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,900 When the curtain drops on everyday life, 2 00:00:05,359 --> 00:00:09,139 true crime shows like this podcast and especially 3 00:00:09,279 --> 00:00:10,339 those on television 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,219 expose the darkest side of humanity. 5 00:00:14,544 --> 00:00:15,605 Television relentlessly 6 00:00:15,985 --> 00:00:19,505 chases the latest trending crimes on police blotters 7 00:00:19,505 --> 00:00:20,725 and court dockets. 8 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,565 Claire Satomall 9 00:00:23,105 --> 00:00:25,664 pursued those stories in the cutthroat world of 10 00:00:25,664 --> 00:00:26,885 prime time television 11 00:00:27,460 --> 00:00:30,119 as a producer for CBS forty eight Hours, 12 00:00:30,419 --> 00:00:33,399 and she also produced segments for sixty Minutes. 13 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:36,439 She's written a memoir about her experiences, 14 00:00:36,979 --> 00:00:40,280 Killer Story, The Truth Behind True Crime Television. 15 00:00:41,545 --> 00:00:44,424 Television executives have known for decades that the 16 00:00:44,424 --> 00:00:45,725 audience is overwhelmingly 17 00:00:46,265 --> 00:00:46,765 female. 18 00:00:47,385 --> 00:00:51,385 We're talking 70 to 80%, sometimes more. Mothers 19 00:00:51,385 --> 00:00:53,005 and daughters, best friends, 20 00:00:53,550 --> 00:00:55,710 women of all ages coming together for what 21 00:00:55,710 --> 00:00:57,570 amounts to a girl's night out 22 00:00:57,950 --> 00:00:59,329 centered on murder. 23 00:01:00,030 --> 00:01:01,710 You may wanna go back and listen to 24 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:04,290 my episode with journalist, Mike Cox. 25 00:01:04,829 --> 00:01:06,290 He wrote a funny satire, 26 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:08,130 Getting Away with Murder, 27 00:01:08,444 --> 00:01:11,825 Learning from Dateline and other true crime shows. 28 00:01:12,685 --> 00:01:14,305 So what's going on here? 29 00:01:14,844 --> 00:01:17,505 Why are women so drawn to true crime? 30 00:01:18,924 --> 00:01:19,745 Claire Sanemaugh, 31 00:01:20,125 --> 00:01:21,984 now a fellow true crime podcaster, 32 00:01:22,365 --> 00:01:23,665 shares her insights. 33 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:32,260 Well, Claire, I'll I'll ask you the question 34 00:01:32,260 --> 00:01:34,599 I get asked all the time. 35 00:01:36,099 --> 00:01:38,040 Why is true crime so popular, 36 00:01:38,420 --> 00:01:39,879 especially with women? 37 00:01:41,674 --> 00:01:43,435 I have thought about this a lot because 38 00:01:43,435 --> 00:01:45,834 I also get asked this a lot. And 39 00:01:45,834 --> 00:01:47,375 I really think it's because 40 00:01:47,915 --> 00:01:49,295 it's a safe way 41 00:01:49,674 --> 00:01:50,415 to consume 42 00:01:51,594 --> 00:01:54,180 all the terrible things that could happen to 43 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:54,680 us. 44 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:56,359 You know, women are 45 00:01:57,219 --> 00:01:59,620 statistically more likely to be the victim of 46 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:00,520 violent crime 47 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:03,719 and enter, you know, personal violence. And 48 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:04,920 so I think 49 00:02:05,380 --> 00:02:06,599 a lot of that fascination 50 00:02:07,140 --> 00:02:08,840 comes from knowing that 51 00:02:09,435 --> 00:02:10,335 many of the victims 52 00:02:11,115 --> 00:02:13,194 are just like us. And so I think 53 00:02:13,194 --> 00:02:16,395 that we're naturally drawn to stories where we 54 00:02:16,395 --> 00:02:17,295 can see ourselves 55 00:02:17,675 --> 00:02:20,175 in them, as scary as that might be. 56 00:02:21,115 --> 00:02:23,215 And I always get the question from everybody 57 00:02:23,594 --> 00:02:24,974 on the serial killers. 58 00:02:25,969 --> 00:02:26,949 Is it nature 59 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:28,150 or nurture? 60 00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:30,930 Now I have to believe it's it's a 61 00:02:30,930 --> 00:02:32,610 combination of both. Do you get that question 62 00:02:32,610 --> 00:02:34,689 a lot? I do. And I agree. I 63 00:02:34,689 --> 00:02:36,370 think it is a combination of both. I 64 00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:38,389 think some people are born 65 00:02:38,849 --> 00:02:39,349 with 66 00:02:39,729 --> 00:02:40,229 this, 67 00:02:41,224 --> 00:02:42,205 you know, violent 68 00:02:42,905 --> 00:02:43,405 tendency. 69 00:02:43,705 --> 00:02:45,625 I think some people are born with a 70 00:02:45,625 --> 00:02:46,605 shorter fuse. 71 00:02:47,145 --> 00:02:49,564 I think that the idea that 72 00:02:49,865 --> 00:02:52,344 violence is the answer, that they've been wronged 73 00:02:52,344 --> 00:02:54,185 and they have to seek vengeance, you know, 74 00:02:54,185 --> 00:02:56,010 I think that is sort of something that 75 00:02:56,010 --> 00:02:58,250 is innate in in some people that they're 76 00:02:58,250 --> 00:02:58,750 more 77 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:01,770 predisposed to that. But I think the nature 78 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:02,270 element 79 00:03:02,889 --> 00:03:03,949 comes into play 80 00:03:04,330 --> 00:03:06,750 with, you know, are they taught to 81 00:03:07,854 --> 00:03:08,354 embrace 82 00:03:08,655 --> 00:03:09,055 that, 83 00:03:10,175 --> 00:03:10,675 tendency? 84 00:03:10,974 --> 00:03:13,534 Are they taught to try to do things 85 00:03:13,534 --> 00:03:16,175 differently? Do they have tools to manage their 86 00:03:16,175 --> 00:03:19,395 anger? Are they shown outlets for their frustration? 87 00:03:20,129 --> 00:03:22,310 Or does it get to be something where 88 00:03:22,449 --> 00:03:25,030 violence is used against them regularly? 89 00:03:25,409 --> 00:03:27,830 And so they see violence as the answer, 90 00:03:28,449 --> 00:03:30,689 you know, and they they internalize that, that 91 00:03:30,689 --> 00:03:33,009 that's how you get respect. That's how you 92 00:03:33,009 --> 00:03:35,495 get results. And and I think that that 93 00:03:35,495 --> 00:03:38,235 is a really dangerous thing to 94 00:03:38,614 --> 00:03:40,375 teach anyone. And I think we see it, 95 00:03:40,375 --> 00:03:42,134 you know, in our society play out all 96 00:03:42,134 --> 00:03:44,455 the time that people grow old, but they 97 00:03:44,455 --> 00:03:47,114 don't grow up and they still act like, 98 00:03:47,419 --> 00:03:50,060 you know, spoiled kids. They still act like 99 00:03:50,060 --> 00:03:52,159 the temper tantrum toddler. 100 00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:54,860 Only this time they have a knife or 101 00:03:54,860 --> 00:03:55,919 a gun in their hands. 102 00:03:56,699 --> 00:03:59,180 Well, we're both in Dallas and, you know, 103 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:01,180 the FBI director was even here a number 104 00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:02,080 of months ago 105 00:04:02,534 --> 00:04:05,354 talking about gun crime among youth. 106 00:04:05,974 --> 00:04:08,474 And it does seem to be like epidemic 107 00:04:09,175 --> 00:04:11,014 that something has gone on out there. I'm 108 00:04:11,014 --> 00:04:13,655 talking about 16, 17 year olds, men and 109 00:04:13,655 --> 00:04:14,155 women. 110 00:04:14,819 --> 00:04:15,800 What's your sense? 111 00:04:16,819 --> 00:04:19,080 Well, without getting too political, 112 00:04:19,699 --> 00:04:21,720 I do think the ease 113 00:04:22,180 --> 00:04:24,040 in which we can access guns, 114 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:26,740 make it something that is as easy to 115 00:04:26,740 --> 00:04:27,240 do 116 00:04:27,860 --> 00:04:29,160 as to go to the store 117 00:04:29,514 --> 00:04:31,115 and to pick one up. And so I 118 00:04:31,115 --> 00:04:33,055 think that having that ability, 119 00:04:33,915 --> 00:04:36,875 is a blessing and a curse and it 120 00:04:36,875 --> 00:04:39,915 it does create opportunity for, you know, it 121 00:04:39,915 --> 00:04:41,615 to be abused. And I think 122 00:04:42,154 --> 00:04:42,975 if you're 123 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,860 growing up in an environment where you feel 124 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,319 that you don't have protection, that you feel 125 00:04:48,319 --> 00:04:49,060 like you 126 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:50,019 could 127 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:52,980 face mortal harm at any moment, 128 00:04:53,519 --> 00:04:55,439 and you wanna protect yourself, well, I could 129 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:57,600 certainly understand why you would start carrying a 130 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:58,100 gun, 131 00:04:58,595 --> 00:05:00,055 but that introduces 132 00:05:00,675 --> 00:05:02,834 a whole other layer of problems, you know, 133 00:05:02,834 --> 00:05:06,035 in in our society. And I think there's 134 00:05:06,035 --> 00:05:08,134 just a public safety element to 135 00:05:08,435 --> 00:05:09,954 the idea that, you know, are we gonna 136 00:05:09,954 --> 00:05:12,160 have gun battles on the street like it's 137 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,000 the Wild West? Is that, you know, what 138 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,220 we're really 139 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:18,319 wanting our our modern society to look like? 140 00:05:18,319 --> 00:05:19,779 You know, I I find that disturbing. 141 00:05:20,879 --> 00:05:22,879 Well, we're having them in cars, you know, 142 00:05:22,879 --> 00:05:25,300 Texas leads the country in road rage, 143 00:05:25,604 --> 00:05:26,504 especially Houston. 144 00:05:27,204 --> 00:05:28,504 And it's people that normally 145 00:05:29,604 --> 00:05:31,925 would never even think of doing this. But 146 00:05:31,925 --> 00:05:32,745 there's something 147 00:05:33,204 --> 00:05:34,805 going on. Heat of the moment. I don't 148 00:05:34,805 --> 00:05:36,985 know if everybody is just angry. 149 00:05:37,764 --> 00:05:39,785 It's hard to put your finger on. I 150 00:05:39,889 --> 00:05:41,569 don't know how much you run into it, 151 00:05:41,569 --> 00:05:43,269 but Yeah. I definitely 152 00:05:43,569 --> 00:05:45,569 think about that when people cut me off 153 00:05:45,569 --> 00:05:46,310 in traffic. 154 00:05:46,769 --> 00:05:47,889 I'm not the one to, 155 00:05:48,689 --> 00:05:51,329 retaliate or give them, you know, the finger 156 00:05:51,329 --> 00:05:53,730 or anything because I know that people can 157 00:05:53,730 --> 00:05:55,714 react completely disproportionately. 158 00:05:56,975 --> 00:05:59,774 And you know I often say you know 159 00:05:59,774 --> 00:06:01,694 for various behaviors well that's a good way 160 00:06:01,694 --> 00:06:03,535 to get shot in Texas, you know, and 161 00:06:03,535 --> 00:06:05,855 I just don't do it. So it's you 162 00:06:05,855 --> 00:06:07,774 know one of those things is to to 163 00:06:07,774 --> 00:06:09,634 start tailing someone after they've 164 00:06:10,710 --> 00:06:12,569 cut you off in traffic. It's just 165 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:15,830 not risky behavior I'm not going to engage 166 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:16,330 in. 167 00:06:17,029 --> 00:06:20,389 What attracted you to write about true crime 168 00:06:20,389 --> 00:06:21,290 as a journalist? 169 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:23,350 And I got the sense maybe from your 170 00:06:23,350 --> 00:06:25,189 book there's, you know, maybe you've had some 171 00:06:25,189 --> 00:06:28,305 misgivings of kind of waiting around in the 172 00:06:28,764 --> 00:06:31,104 refuse of society every day. 173 00:06:31,404 --> 00:06:33,584 You know, I was drawn to it initially, 174 00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:35,344 just because 175 00:06:35,964 --> 00:06:38,144 as a journalist, I couldn't believe 176 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,460 all the story elements 177 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:41,900 that were just 178 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,360 right in front of my face in a 179 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,480 crime story. Whenever you go to the police 180 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,960 report and you get the narrative of the 181 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,620 case, you get the victim, the complainant, 182 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:53,580 witnesses, 183 00:06:54,395 --> 00:06:56,254 names, phone numbers, addresses. 184 00:06:56,955 --> 00:06:58,895 To me, it was like this 185 00:06:59,675 --> 00:07:00,175 unbelievable 186 00:07:01,194 --> 00:07:04,314 gift from from the journalism gods to to 187 00:07:04,314 --> 00:07:05,455 give you this story 188 00:07:05,835 --> 00:07:06,335 that, 189 00:07:06,795 --> 00:07:09,420 you could just take a running start with 190 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:10,319 to tell it. 191 00:07:10,699 --> 00:07:13,120 And you you had all of this 192 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:16,139 really valuable information at your fingertips if you 193 00:07:16,139 --> 00:07:18,939 knew how to, you know, use the police 194 00:07:18,939 --> 00:07:19,439 databases. 195 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:22,240 And so for me, that was the initial 196 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:24,879 draw. It was just all of this 197 00:07:25,545 --> 00:07:26,045 information 198 00:07:26,665 --> 00:07:28,285 that allowed me to 199 00:07:28,745 --> 00:07:29,404 very quickly 200 00:07:29,705 --> 00:07:31,545 start working on a story. And I, you 201 00:07:31,545 --> 00:07:33,305 know, I love nothing more than a good 202 00:07:33,305 --> 00:07:33,805 story. 203 00:07:34,105 --> 00:07:37,165 So so that was, pretty tantalizing to me. 204 00:07:37,545 --> 00:07:39,485 Was the police beat your start 205 00:07:40,129 --> 00:07:40,949 in crime? 206 00:07:41,250 --> 00:07:43,810 So, yes, it was. It was absolutely just 207 00:07:43,810 --> 00:07:46,930 the police blotter at People Newspapers was my 208 00:07:46,930 --> 00:07:49,889 start in crime. So I, I was a 209 00:07:49,889 --> 00:07:52,529 general assignment reporter, you know, covering everything. I 210 00:07:52,529 --> 00:07:54,534 was going to the school board meetings. I 211 00:07:54,534 --> 00:07:55,995 was going to city council. 212 00:07:56,615 --> 00:07:59,495 I was writing stories when little old ladies 213 00:07:59,495 --> 00:08:01,574 turned a hundred and they were throwing birthday 214 00:08:01,574 --> 00:08:03,334 parties. You know, I was doing it all, 215 00:08:03,334 --> 00:08:04,235 Robert. So, 216 00:08:04,615 --> 00:08:07,435 the police blotter was was part of my, 217 00:08:08,029 --> 00:08:09,490 you know, weekly routine 218 00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:12,370 and I just started to get really interested 219 00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:14,910 in the patterns that I would see in 220 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:17,330 the kinds of crimes that were committed and, 221 00:08:17,949 --> 00:08:20,270 you know, just really thinking about all the 222 00:08:20,270 --> 00:08:22,509 different people who are impacted by crime. You 223 00:08:22,509 --> 00:08:25,264 know, you have the police officers, you have, 224 00:08:25,264 --> 00:08:27,665 of course, the victims, you have, you know, 225 00:08:27,665 --> 00:08:30,064 the suspects and people who get, you know, 226 00:08:30,064 --> 00:08:32,785 falsely accused of crimes. There's just it's a 227 00:08:32,785 --> 00:08:35,524 really rich tapestry for writing. 228 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:37,659 Oh, it is a tapestry. 229 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:38,620 You know, 230 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,059 I'm very senior 231 00:08:40,759 --> 00:08:43,399 in age to you. But, you know, my 232 00:08:43,399 --> 00:08:43,899 peers 233 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,799 we've all talked about the best place to 234 00:08:47,799 --> 00:08:50,039 start in journalism as a rookie was the 235 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:51,019 police beat. 236 00:08:51,584 --> 00:08:52,084 And 237 00:08:52,384 --> 00:08:54,164 you see really good reporters 238 00:08:55,105 --> 00:08:58,324 come out of that. I mean, amazing reporters. 239 00:08:59,504 --> 00:09:00,964 What is it you think about 240 00:09:01,345 --> 00:09:02,404 that it is about 241 00:09:02,784 --> 00:09:04,964 you can really craft a good journalist 242 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:07,040 covering the police beat. 243 00:09:07,580 --> 00:09:09,580 I think it's a trial by fire. You 244 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:12,220 know, you're thrown in, you're talking to cops 245 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:15,179 that usually don't wanna talk to you. You're 246 00:09:15,179 --> 00:09:17,740 dealing with matters of life and death. You 247 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:19,200 are chasing down, 248 00:09:19,904 --> 00:09:22,164 you know people for statements and 249 00:09:22,625 --> 00:09:23,125 interviews 250 00:09:23,584 --> 00:09:24,084 and 251 00:09:24,464 --> 00:09:27,365 you're learning you know the basics of records 252 00:09:27,504 --> 00:09:30,644 requests and you know navigating the court system 253 00:09:30,784 --> 00:09:32,325 and I think it really 254 00:09:32,929 --> 00:09:33,429 gives 255 00:09:33,889 --> 00:09:36,129 you, you know, a lot of skills that 256 00:09:36,129 --> 00:09:38,230 can translate to other types of journalism, 257 00:09:38,690 --> 00:09:40,709 you know, very easily. Political journalism, 258 00:09:41,329 --> 00:09:41,990 you know, 259 00:09:42,370 --> 00:09:44,529 feature writing, so many things. You know, you 260 00:09:44,529 --> 00:09:47,269 can use the skills that you learn as 261 00:09:47,845 --> 00:09:49,684 a reporter on the police beat. But, yeah, 262 00:09:49,684 --> 00:09:51,845 I just think also the idea that there's 263 00:09:51,845 --> 00:09:53,065 always something happening. 264 00:09:53,445 --> 00:09:55,465 There's, you know, the crime beat never sleeps, 265 00:09:55,524 --> 00:09:56,664 and you 266 00:09:56,965 --> 00:09:59,205 you can always find a story, and there's 267 00:09:59,205 --> 00:10:02,509 always, like, more things to dig into. 268 00:10:03,129 --> 00:10:04,910 In your new book, Killer Story, 269 00:10:05,450 --> 00:10:08,170 is it based largely on your experience as 270 00:10:08,170 --> 00:10:10,330 a producer for forty eight hours doing crime 271 00:10:10,330 --> 00:10:10,830 stories? 272 00:10:12,009 --> 00:10:13,845 And you also talk about a story that 273 00:10:13,924 --> 00:10:16,345 really was interesting is the woman who was, 274 00:10:17,044 --> 00:10:20,024 murdering her husbands and you found a pattern. 275 00:10:20,324 --> 00:10:22,024 Yeah. Yes. Talk about that 276 00:10:22,404 --> 00:10:22,904 story. 277 00:10:23,365 --> 00:10:24,884 Is that really what kind of set you 278 00:10:24,884 --> 00:10:25,384 off? 279 00:10:25,684 --> 00:10:28,024 It is. So the story of Michelle Williams 280 00:10:28,164 --> 00:10:28,649 is 281 00:10:28,970 --> 00:10:30,110 my origin story 282 00:10:30,730 --> 00:10:33,129 in true crime television. I was at the 283 00:10:33,129 --> 00:10:35,930 time working for Culture Map Dallas, and I 284 00:10:35,930 --> 00:10:36,670 came across 285 00:10:37,290 --> 00:10:40,889 just a scant story talking about a plea 286 00:10:40,889 --> 00:10:43,644 deal that a woman named Michelle Williams had 287 00:10:43,644 --> 00:10:44,144 reached 288 00:10:44,524 --> 00:10:45,904 in the death of her husband. 289 00:10:46,445 --> 00:10:48,684 And it said that she would, you know, 290 00:10:48,684 --> 00:10:51,725 probably serve nine years and she was pleading 291 00:10:51,725 --> 00:10:53,504 guilty to deadly conduct 292 00:10:54,049 --> 00:10:56,370 and tampering with evidence and, you know, it 293 00:10:56,370 --> 00:10:58,149 was just all very 294 00:10:58,850 --> 00:11:01,490 curious to me and it really piqued my 295 00:11:01,490 --> 00:11:01,990 interest 296 00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:04,389 as a crime reporter because I know 297 00:11:05,009 --> 00:11:07,250 you don't get a plea deal for murder 298 00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:07,909 in Texas 299 00:11:08,370 --> 00:11:09,190 very easily 300 00:11:09,705 --> 00:11:13,065 And you certainly don't get something like nine 301 00:11:13,065 --> 00:11:13,565 years, 302 00:11:14,105 --> 00:11:16,684 you know, that that's that's unheard of. So 303 00:11:16,985 --> 00:11:19,865 I was really drawn to this case and 304 00:11:19,865 --> 00:11:22,764 I started digging into Michelle Williams' background 305 00:11:23,384 --> 00:11:25,004 and I found out that 306 00:11:25,649 --> 00:11:28,069 nothing about this woman was as it seemed. 307 00:11:28,529 --> 00:11:31,250 And she had a trail of destruction. This 308 00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:32,549 was her third husband. 309 00:11:33,169 --> 00:11:35,169 This was the second time that she was 310 00:11:35,169 --> 00:11:37,409 claiming, you know, that someone close to her 311 00:11:37,409 --> 00:11:38,549 had committed suicide. 312 00:11:39,184 --> 00:11:42,245 And this was a pattern that I discovered 313 00:11:42,304 --> 00:11:44,964 that she would lie and manipulate 314 00:11:45,424 --> 00:11:46,804 and use her, 315 00:11:47,264 --> 00:11:49,924 you know, sweet innocent woman persona 316 00:11:50,625 --> 00:11:53,709 as this damsel in distress to really get 317 00:11:53,709 --> 00:11:54,850 preferential treatment 318 00:11:55,389 --> 00:11:57,949 from law enforcement and from, you know, the 319 00:11:57,949 --> 00:11:59,409 court system. And so 320 00:12:00,190 --> 00:12:02,610 I ended up doing a three part investigative 321 00:12:02,829 --> 00:12:05,870 series on Michelle Williams asking, did she get 322 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:07,574 away with murder in the death of her 323 00:12:07,574 --> 00:12:10,054 husband because she was allowed to plead plead 324 00:12:10,054 --> 00:12:13,034 guilty to something called deadly conduct, not murder. 325 00:12:13,495 --> 00:12:15,654 And so, you know, after my story came 326 00:12:15,654 --> 00:12:18,394 out, it was just a wave of 327 00:12:18,774 --> 00:12:20,475 of media interest from 328 00:12:20,889 --> 00:12:21,949 Dateline NBC, 329 00:12:22,329 --> 00:12:24,730 from twenty twenty on ABC, and from forty 330 00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:25,870 eight hours on CBS, 331 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:30,570 about this twisted murder story in in Texas. 332 00:12:30,570 --> 00:12:33,370 And so I ended up working with forty 333 00:12:33,370 --> 00:12:34,669 eight hours as a consultant 334 00:12:35,209 --> 00:12:36,110 on that story 335 00:12:36,584 --> 00:12:39,485 and that really launched my career in 336 00:12:39,944 --> 00:12:43,004 television. It was my first experience with TV 337 00:12:43,144 --> 00:12:43,644 and 338 00:12:44,424 --> 00:12:46,184 it was just the beginning of of a 339 00:12:46,184 --> 00:12:48,345 new phase of my career. We covered, you 340 00:12:48,345 --> 00:12:50,444 know, the fact that Michelle Williams plea deal 341 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,519 was taken off the table, once the authorities 342 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:55,980 realized how much she had lied about in 343 00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:58,300 her past. And she actually went to trial 344 00:12:58,300 --> 00:12:59,040 for murder 345 00:12:59,420 --> 00:13:02,220 and was found guilty and sentenced to sixty 346 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:03,360 years in prison. 347 00:13:03,945 --> 00:13:06,825 So I I take a lot of, pride 348 00:13:06,825 --> 00:13:09,325 in that story in in finding out 349 00:13:09,705 --> 00:13:12,665 more information about her than authorities had been 350 00:13:12,665 --> 00:13:14,424 able to figure it out, you know, in 351 00:13:14,424 --> 00:13:15,165 their investigation 352 00:13:15,625 --> 00:13:16,125 and 353 00:13:16,665 --> 00:13:17,804 really helping 354 00:13:18,809 --> 00:13:21,370 the family, you know, the victim's family get 355 00:13:21,370 --> 00:13:25,049 justice, get, a just verdict for, you know, 356 00:13:25,049 --> 00:13:26,269 their loved one's death. 357 00:13:26,809 --> 00:13:27,930 Did you ever go see her in prison? 358 00:13:27,930 --> 00:13:30,330 Do you ever interview her? I have tried. 359 00:13:30,330 --> 00:13:31,710 She has, declined 360 00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:34,855 my interview request, Robert. Yeah. Imagine that. 361 00:13:35,394 --> 00:13:37,394 Is she going to be eligible for parole 362 00:13:37,394 --> 00:13:38,835 in the future? I'm just wondering what the 363 00:13:38,835 --> 00:13:39,735 sentence was. 364 00:13:40,115 --> 00:13:42,855 Yes. So she would be eligible for parole, 365 00:13:43,875 --> 00:13:46,914 but unlikely to to get it. I think 366 00:13:46,914 --> 00:13:47,735 she would be, 367 00:13:48,889 --> 00:13:51,529 have to serve, I wanna say, thirty years 368 00:13:51,529 --> 00:13:52,269 of her sentence 369 00:13:52,649 --> 00:13:54,490 before she would be eligible for parole, but 370 00:13:54,490 --> 00:13:57,069 I know the victim's family plans on Protest. 371 00:13:57,289 --> 00:14:00,190 Yeah. Exactly. Protesting that and and being present, 372 00:14:00,649 --> 00:14:02,889 and vocal about how they do not want 373 00:14:02,889 --> 00:14:03,825 her to get out. 374 00:14:05,985 --> 00:14:07,985 In your time with sixty minutes, what was 375 00:14:07,985 --> 00:14:09,825 a particular story there that you just you 376 00:14:09,825 --> 00:14:11,665 know, we all gonna shake our head about, 377 00:14:11,665 --> 00:14:14,325 like, boy, you can't make this stuff up? 378 00:14:15,105 --> 00:14:15,605 Sure. 379 00:14:16,144 --> 00:14:18,740 So I my big story with sixty minutes 380 00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:21,559 was called the ranger and the serial killer. 381 00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:23,620 And it was a story of a Texas 382 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:26,120 ranger who had elicited 383 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:27,300 93 384 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:27,800 confessions 385 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:30,600 from serial killer Samuel Little, 386 00:14:31,205 --> 00:14:32,965 who at the time was in LA County 387 00:14:32,965 --> 00:14:33,465 Prison 388 00:14:34,085 --> 00:14:37,524 on a life sentence for three murders that 389 00:14:37,524 --> 00:14:40,004 he had said he had been falsely accused 390 00:14:40,004 --> 00:14:41,925 of, that he did not commit. He was 391 00:14:41,925 --> 00:14:43,465 adamant that he was innocent. 392 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:44,759 And after 393 00:14:45,539 --> 00:14:46,600 this Texas Ranger 394 00:14:47,139 --> 00:14:48,679 went and interviewed him, 395 00:14:49,139 --> 00:14:52,039 over the course of of many, many interviews, 396 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,000 many hours, many days, he ended up confessing 397 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:57,639 to not only those three murders, 398 00:14:58,004 --> 00:15:00,184 but to 90 others and 399 00:15:00,725 --> 00:15:01,225 really 400 00:15:02,325 --> 00:15:05,924 providing so many rich details about the cases 401 00:15:05,924 --> 00:15:06,745 and the victims 402 00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:09,144 where he would actually sketch 403 00:15:09,845 --> 00:15:10,585 his victims. 404 00:15:11,309 --> 00:15:13,009 And he had these haunting 405 00:15:13,549 --> 00:15:14,049 portraits 406 00:15:14,350 --> 00:15:14,850 of, 407 00:15:15,309 --> 00:15:16,990 these women that he killed, and they were 408 00:15:16,990 --> 00:15:18,049 actually used 409 00:15:18,429 --> 00:15:19,009 to identify 410 00:15:20,110 --> 00:15:20,850 the bodies. 411 00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:22,450 Many times, 412 00:15:22,910 --> 00:15:26,110 authorities had found these unknown Jane Does and 413 00:15:26,110 --> 00:15:27,524 the bodies had been out for some time. 414 00:15:27,524 --> 00:15:28,664 There's decomposition. 415 00:15:29,284 --> 00:15:30,964 They did not know who they were. And 416 00:15:30,964 --> 00:15:34,725 so Samuel Little's own words and drawings were 417 00:15:34,725 --> 00:15:37,684 made public and family members would come forward 418 00:15:37,684 --> 00:15:40,164 and say, that looks like my mom. That 419 00:15:40,164 --> 00:15:41,304 looks like my sister. 420 00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:43,190 And you know, would remember 421 00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:45,029 details that would allow 422 00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:48,129 authorities to corroborate those cases. So that was 423 00:15:48,129 --> 00:15:49,190 just an unbelievable 424 00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:52,769 investigative journey and was so interesting to be 425 00:15:52,769 --> 00:15:53,429 part of 426 00:15:53,889 --> 00:15:56,209 that story and to, you know, share it 427 00:15:56,209 --> 00:15:57,190 with the nation. 428 00:15:58,125 --> 00:15:59,965 Do you know how many actually ended up 429 00:15:59,965 --> 00:16:02,764 being confirmed of the 90? So I believe 430 00:16:02,764 --> 00:16:05,165 the last time I checked, it was somewhere 431 00:16:05,165 --> 00:16:05,985 in the sixties. 432 00:16:06,685 --> 00:16:08,225 I know we had broken, 433 00:16:08,605 --> 00:16:10,705 I think it was, like, 61 434 00:16:11,165 --> 00:16:12,545 when the FBI 435 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:16,440 announced Samuel Little as the most prolific serial 436 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,460 killer in the history of The United States 437 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,299 because he had gone past the other established 438 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,639 kill number, which I I believe was, like, 439 00:16:25,639 --> 00:16:26,620 60 from, 440 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,535 yeah, previous serial killer. As a reporter, I'm 441 00:16:29,535 --> 00:16:31,634 curious. Did you ever get a little apprehensive 442 00:16:31,855 --> 00:16:34,335 in the process? Because everybody got burned by 443 00:16:34,335 --> 00:16:36,654 Henry Lee Lucas in this state Yes. Years 444 00:16:36,654 --> 00:16:39,455 ago. Yeah. Yes. So that absolutely came up. 445 00:16:39,455 --> 00:16:42,850 And the Texas Ranger who was interrogating Samuel 446 00:16:42,850 --> 00:16:45,250 Little, he was very aware of the Henry 447 00:16:45,250 --> 00:16:48,929 Lee Lucas case and the pitfalls that authorities 448 00:16:48,929 --> 00:16:51,110 made at that time by putting this information 449 00:16:51,250 --> 00:16:53,250 out in front of him. And so he 450 00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:56,544 was very careful never to put information in 451 00:16:56,544 --> 00:16:59,365 front of him to allow Samuel Little to 452 00:16:59,664 --> 00:17:00,164 himself 453 00:17:00,625 --> 00:17:02,884 bring up the dates, the places, 454 00:17:03,424 --> 00:17:04,164 the cities 455 00:17:04,625 --> 00:17:07,184 where he killed. And so by doing that, 456 00:17:07,184 --> 00:17:08,244 he really avoided 457 00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:10,404 the false confession 458 00:17:11,339 --> 00:17:11,839 pitfall. 459 00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:14,779 And many people have tried to prove that 460 00:17:14,779 --> 00:17:16,779 Samuel Little, you know, did not commit these 461 00:17:16,779 --> 00:17:18,539 crimes. And to date, I don't know of 462 00:17:18,539 --> 00:17:21,660 a single murder that Samuel Little has confessed 463 00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:23,980 to that has been proven to be anyone 464 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:24,480 else's. 465 00:17:25,065 --> 00:17:27,884 Many many journalists from the Washington Post, from 466 00:17:28,024 --> 00:17:29,565 all sorts of fabulous 467 00:17:30,265 --> 00:17:32,845 media companies have looked into this to see, 468 00:17:33,384 --> 00:17:35,625 is there a false confession? And to date, 469 00:17:35,625 --> 00:17:37,544 I have not seen any evidence that that 470 00:17:37,544 --> 00:17:39,470 they found one. Did you ever get the 471 00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:41,009 opportunity to interview him? 472 00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:43,789 Samuel Little, I did not. So the closest 473 00:17:43,789 --> 00:17:46,350 we got so LA County does not allow 474 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:49,890 media interviews with their inmates on prison grounds, 475 00:17:50,430 --> 00:17:51,809 but we were able 476 00:17:53,054 --> 00:17:56,095 to do a phone call interview with him. 477 00:17:56,095 --> 00:17:57,075 And so correspondent 478 00:17:57,375 --> 00:17:59,954 Sharon Alfonsi with sixty minutes, you know, conducted 479 00:18:00,494 --> 00:18:01,714 that phone conversation. 480 00:18:02,255 --> 00:18:03,855 And as one of the producers, I was 481 00:18:03,855 --> 00:18:05,775 in the room as as she was talking 482 00:18:05,775 --> 00:18:08,420 to Samuel Little over the phone. And that 483 00:18:08,539 --> 00:18:10,320 that's as close as I got. Probably 484 00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:13,340 a little bit closer than I would have 485 00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:16,160 liked was whenever we went into his cell 486 00:18:16,299 --> 00:18:17,680 at LA County Prison 487 00:18:18,059 --> 00:18:19,365 and he was not in it, 488 00:18:19,845 --> 00:18:22,164 but we were allowed inside and we could 489 00:18:22,164 --> 00:18:24,884 see, you know, he gets fan mail, which 490 00:18:24,884 --> 00:18:27,285 is really disturbing to think about, and he 491 00:18:27,285 --> 00:18:29,525 hangs it up on his walls and, you 492 00:18:29,525 --> 00:18:31,525 know, he gets still gets, like, lots of 493 00:18:31,525 --> 00:18:34,484 newspapers and and other forms of media that 494 00:18:34,484 --> 00:18:35,589 he he keeps 495 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:37,349 and, you know, he had all sorts 496 00:18:37,809 --> 00:18:39,269 of snack cakes and 497 00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:42,210 it was this kind of bizarre, like, almost 498 00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:45,490 like a summer camp cabin atmosphere because he 499 00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:47,890 had, like, pictures that people had drawn, you 500 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:49,570 know, tacked up on his wall and his 501 00:18:49,570 --> 00:18:53,005 own drawings and letters from pen pals. And 502 00:18:53,224 --> 00:18:55,384 it was a strange experience, and it was 503 00:18:55,384 --> 00:18:55,884 very 504 00:18:57,144 --> 00:18:59,484 eerie to be, you know, in his 505 00:18:59,785 --> 00:19:02,424 space and know that this is where, you 506 00:19:02,424 --> 00:19:04,184 know, this man that had killed so many 507 00:19:04,184 --> 00:19:05,724 people, this is where he relaxes. 508 00:19:06,109 --> 00:19:07,090 This is where he 509 00:19:07,549 --> 00:19:09,890 reclines. You know, it was a disturbing, 510 00:19:10,830 --> 00:19:11,330 experience. 511 00:19:11,869 --> 00:19:13,950 You know, I've done a lot of reporting 512 00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:16,349 on Texas death row, and I see the 513 00:19:16,349 --> 00:19:18,529 same thing, the fan mail, 514 00:19:19,144 --> 00:19:20,284 particularly women 515 00:19:20,585 --> 00:19:22,105 that come to Oh, that's bizarre. Yeah. And 516 00:19:22,105 --> 00:19:23,085 pals and all. 517 00:19:23,384 --> 00:19:24,204 And I 518 00:19:24,585 --> 00:19:26,664 still have trouble wrapping my head around it. 519 00:19:26,664 --> 00:19:28,924 I'm just like, it's hard to understand. 520 00:19:29,464 --> 00:19:31,784 It is. You know, part of it, I 521 00:19:31,784 --> 00:19:34,259 think, is that a certain kind of woman 522 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,140 is drawn 523 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:38,660 to this, quote, unquote, powerful man 524 00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:42,080 that is locked away and cannot actually harm 525 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,140 them anymore. 526 00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:44,900 I think there's a weird, 527 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:46,180 like, safety 528 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:47,059 element 529 00:19:47,634 --> 00:19:49,255 in that they are 530 00:19:49,954 --> 00:19:51,174 completely incapable 531 00:19:51,474 --> 00:19:53,954 of causing them physical harm, but they can 532 00:19:53,954 --> 00:19:56,294 have, like, this emotional relationship 533 00:19:57,075 --> 00:19:57,815 with this 534 00:19:58,355 --> 00:19:58,855 violent, 535 00:19:59,154 --> 00:20:02,134 powerful man that they're probably drawn to 536 00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:05,509 due to some very sad things that have 537 00:20:05,509 --> 00:20:07,850 happened in their lives and like some strange 538 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:08,490 psychology 539 00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:11,049 about just being attracted to bad men. 540 00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:13,930 And so I found that, you know, women 541 00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:15,369 will make 542 00:20:16,065 --> 00:20:18,464 pen pals with these murderers knowing that they'll 543 00:20:18,464 --> 00:20:20,544 never get out and they like it that 544 00:20:20,544 --> 00:20:22,304 way. You know, they can't they can't cheat 545 00:20:22,304 --> 00:20:24,565 on them. They can't abuse them. 546 00:20:24,944 --> 00:20:27,744 They can't actually steal money from them. And 547 00:20:27,744 --> 00:20:29,125 so it's this sort of 548 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:31,220 really bizarre, 549 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:32,900 unusual, 550 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,220 quote unquote relationship, 551 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:37,680 you know? It's not a physical relationship. It's 552 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,200 not a relationship in the way that you 553 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,539 and I would have, you know, a relationship 554 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,259 with someone outside of prison. But to them, 555 00:20:44,785 --> 00:20:46,964 it's actually a very romantic, 556 00:20:47,585 --> 00:20:48,085 intimate, 557 00:20:48,785 --> 00:20:49,285 emotional 558 00:20:49,904 --> 00:20:52,085 connection. You talked about the Texas Ranger. 559 00:20:52,545 --> 00:20:53,444 Certainly overseas, 560 00:20:54,384 --> 00:20:57,265 the Rangers have this huge mythology, and even 561 00:20:57,265 --> 00:20:58,325 here in The States. 562 00:20:59,299 --> 00:21:00,599 What do you think that is? 563 00:21:01,779 --> 00:21:03,700 And is it justified in this day and 564 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:04,200 age? 565 00:21:05,380 --> 00:21:07,220 So the Texas Rangers, you know, they have 566 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:09,480 a unique role in law enforcement 567 00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:12,579 in our state. They are able to have 568 00:21:12,579 --> 00:21:13,079 jurisdiction 569 00:21:13,539 --> 00:21:14,839 across the entire 570 00:21:15,404 --> 00:21:17,505 Lone Star State, which is expansive. 571 00:21:18,045 --> 00:21:20,445 So they aren't limited to a city or 572 00:21:20,445 --> 00:21:23,085 county. And I think the idea that they 573 00:21:23,085 --> 00:21:23,585 can 574 00:21:24,125 --> 00:21:25,904 literally go into any 575 00:21:26,445 --> 00:21:30,125 town in Texas and start investigating a crime 576 00:21:30,125 --> 00:21:30,569 and arrest 577 00:21:31,289 --> 00:21:32,750 someone, you know, that alone 578 00:21:33,849 --> 00:21:34,829 is pretty special 579 00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:37,630 and allows them to, you know, stand above 580 00:21:37,690 --> 00:21:38,669 local law enforcement. 581 00:21:39,049 --> 00:21:40,509 I also think the specialized 582 00:21:40,809 --> 00:21:41,869 nature of 583 00:21:42,329 --> 00:21:43,069 their training 584 00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:45,369 and the types of cases that they look 585 00:21:45,369 --> 00:21:47,365 into, like, if the Texas Rangers are 586 00:21:47,744 --> 00:21:49,984 involved, it's a very serious crime. It's a 587 00:21:49,984 --> 00:21:52,005 weird crime. It's an unusual 588 00:21:52,305 --> 00:21:53,365 case. And so 589 00:21:53,744 --> 00:21:56,625 I have worked with a lot of cold 590 00:21:56,625 --> 00:21:57,525 case investigations 591 00:21:57,825 --> 00:21:59,970 that involve the Texas Rangers and they come 592 00:21:59,970 --> 00:22:01,970 in and they do new interviews and they 593 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:03,970 retest evidence and they do the kinds of 594 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:06,630 things that, you know, victims' families are 595 00:22:07,169 --> 00:22:09,009 like have been asking for, you know. And 596 00:22:09,009 --> 00:22:11,650 so I I think they rightfully so, you 597 00:22:11,650 --> 00:22:14,130 know, get a lot of credit for looking 598 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:15,269 into these 599 00:22:15,674 --> 00:22:18,475 forgotten cases. These, you know, their unsolved crimes 600 00:22:18,475 --> 00:22:21,695 unit is is very busy in Texas. 601 00:22:22,075 --> 00:22:23,515 I like to say that you might find 602 00:22:23,515 --> 00:22:25,674 them in the morning on a horseback and 603 00:22:25,674 --> 00:22:27,674 in the evening on their laptop. I mean, 604 00:22:27,674 --> 00:22:30,200 they're very, even though they're the don't be 605 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,679 misled by the Western garb and everything, they're 606 00:22:32,679 --> 00:22:34,859 very sophisticated and got great answers. They are. 607 00:22:34,919 --> 00:22:36,440 And a lot of times, yeah, they're the 608 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,839 first to use new technology and to look 609 00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:42,164 at advances in, you know, DNA testing or 610 00:22:42,164 --> 00:22:44,884 other forensics. And, yeah, I I definitely think 611 00:22:44,884 --> 00:22:47,605 that they are on usually on the cutting 612 00:22:47,605 --> 00:22:49,765 edge of of new technology, which you wouldn't 613 00:22:49,765 --> 00:22:52,565 necessarily think with the with the cowboy hats 614 00:22:52,565 --> 00:22:55,252 and the boots and Well, you know, they 615 00:22:55,252 --> 00:22:58,256 were at the forefront of, forensic genetic genealogy 616 00:22:58,256 --> 00:23:01,259 in this state, in Texas. So Yeah. That's 617 00:23:01,259 --> 00:23:03,930 fascinating. Yeah. But, you know, they they stay 618 00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:05,984 out of the limelight. You know, when there's 619 00:23:05,984 --> 00:23:07,904 a press conference, even though they might have 620 00:23:07,904 --> 00:23:10,005 helped solve the crime, they let the sheriff 621 00:23:10,785 --> 00:23:13,184 take all the credit. Yeah, that's right. They 622 00:23:13,184 --> 00:23:15,265 stay in the background. On cold cases, you 623 00:23:15,265 --> 00:23:17,045 know, there's 300,000 624 00:23:17,265 --> 00:23:19,890 cold cases across the country. Heck, there's more 625 00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:21,750 than a thousand in Fort Worth alone. 626 00:23:22,930 --> 00:23:24,950 I've always called it sort of the silent 627 00:23:25,009 --> 00:23:27,910 scandal. What is your sense of, will 628 00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:29,430 we ever get there? 629 00:23:30,769 --> 00:23:31,670 It's really 630 00:23:32,130 --> 00:23:32,630 a 631 00:23:33,090 --> 00:23:34,070 never ending 632 00:23:34,654 --> 00:23:36,355 mountain to climb because 633 00:23:37,134 --> 00:23:38,034 as these cases, 634 00:23:38,335 --> 00:23:40,174 you know, they don't have enough evidence to 635 00:23:40,174 --> 00:23:41,474 test, they don't have witnesses, 636 00:23:42,174 --> 00:23:44,654 and they just kind of start stacking up. 637 00:23:44,654 --> 00:23:46,674 And so I I do think that, 638 00:23:47,429 --> 00:23:50,470 as we have more, you know, advances in 639 00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:50,970 technology 640 00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:53,909 and the ability for, like, touch DNA and, 641 00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:55,450 you know, other types of, 642 00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:56,970 forensic testing, 643 00:23:57,429 --> 00:23:58,569 I think we'll get 644 00:23:58,994 --> 00:24:02,375 a higher, you know, solve rate. But, yeah, 645 00:24:02,994 --> 00:24:05,335 unfortunately, there is just a backlog 646 00:24:05,634 --> 00:24:08,454 of these cases that have not been solved 647 00:24:08,515 --> 00:24:11,315 and continue to grow colder by the day. 648 00:24:11,315 --> 00:24:12,210 And we know 649 00:24:12,529 --> 00:24:15,890 how important it is to investigate these cases 650 00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:18,369 when they're fresh and when the days are 651 00:24:18,369 --> 00:24:20,690 short on the calendar from from when the 652 00:24:20,690 --> 00:24:22,529 crime occurred. And so it just gets harder, 653 00:24:22,529 --> 00:24:23,829 you know, memories fade, 654 00:24:24,130 --> 00:24:25,109 evidence degrades, 655 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:27,585 and, you know, the longer a case sits 656 00:24:27,585 --> 00:24:29,444 there, the harder it is to solve. 657 00:24:30,865 --> 00:24:32,884 Are you seeing any new trends in crime? 658 00:24:33,105 --> 00:24:35,825 I'm seeing trends of criminals trying to get 659 00:24:35,825 --> 00:24:37,204 smarter with the technology, 660 00:24:37,825 --> 00:24:39,924 trying to cover their tracks. 661 00:24:40,369 --> 00:24:42,529 But even so, you know, if you turn 662 00:24:42,529 --> 00:24:44,529 off your cell phone and go commit a 663 00:24:44,529 --> 00:24:46,309 crime and then turn it back on, 664 00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:49,990 well, that stands out as an unusual activity. 665 00:24:50,049 --> 00:24:52,210 So I think that in a lot of 666 00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:54,825 ways, you know, technology is really catching up 667 00:24:54,904 --> 00:24:56,605 to many criminals and 668 00:24:56,984 --> 00:24:58,044 there's a lot more 669 00:24:58,825 --> 00:25:00,984 data for people to come through, you know, 670 00:25:00,984 --> 00:25:03,784 not only your cell phone, your smartwatch, your 671 00:25:03,784 --> 00:25:04,284 Fitbit, 672 00:25:04,984 --> 00:25:08,204 but license plates readers, you know, toll tags. 673 00:25:08,264 --> 00:25:08,764 There's 674 00:25:09,220 --> 00:25:11,480 lots of information available that 675 00:25:12,019 --> 00:25:14,659 police officers are using, you know, to solve 676 00:25:14,659 --> 00:25:16,740 these crimes and to put the the puzzle 677 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:17,639 pieces together. 678 00:25:18,099 --> 00:25:19,779 Well, as you know, Dateline's the mother of 679 00:25:19,779 --> 00:25:20,279 all 680 00:25:21,105 --> 00:25:23,845 televised crime shows. Breakdown for our listeners 681 00:25:24,144 --> 00:25:24,964 the formulas, 682 00:25:26,704 --> 00:25:28,724 story formulas, that each of these shows 683 00:25:29,505 --> 00:25:31,904 they have. Yeah. So I mean, you know, 684 00:25:31,904 --> 00:25:34,625 true crime shows, we all talk about telling 685 00:25:34,625 --> 00:25:37,320 them in acts. That's something that comes up, 686 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,000 you know, time and time again and whether 687 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,960 you're working for the networks or cable or 688 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,960 who you're, you know, whatever you might be 689 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,599 working for. They tell the story in in 690 00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:48,539 five or six acts and that's, 691 00:25:49,045 --> 00:25:51,384 you know, they these little bite sized pieces 692 00:25:51,525 --> 00:25:52,025 of, 693 00:25:52,484 --> 00:25:54,644 drama, right, for the audience. And you always 694 00:25:54,644 --> 00:25:56,724 wanna end on a cliffhanger before you go 695 00:25:56,724 --> 00:25:58,404 to commercial break and get them to come 696 00:25:58,404 --> 00:26:00,884 back. And, you know, these shows are really 697 00:26:00,884 --> 00:26:01,384 built 698 00:26:01,684 --> 00:26:02,184 for 699 00:26:02,565 --> 00:26:03,065 the 700 00:26:04,049 --> 00:26:05,190 linear television 701 00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:07,909 experience. They're not built to binge. 702 00:26:08,289 --> 00:26:10,450 And so they really just wanna keep you 703 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:11,909 glued to your chair 704 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:14,690 for for one hour, and that's that's the 705 00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:16,049 goal. And at the end of the hour, 706 00:26:16,049 --> 00:26:18,615 you have the satisfaction that the case has 707 00:26:18,934 --> 00:26:20,775 wrapped up. You know who the bad guy 708 00:26:20,775 --> 00:26:22,234 is. They're being punished. 709 00:26:22,775 --> 00:26:24,454 And, you know, you can sleep better at 710 00:26:24,454 --> 00:26:26,615 night because we got to the bottom of 711 00:26:26,615 --> 00:26:27,355 this case. 712 00:26:27,815 --> 00:26:29,355 Which is not always the case. 713 00:26:29,894 --> 00:26:32,054 No. It's definitely not that cut and dry. 714 00:26:32,054 --> 00:26:34,039 But if you watch true crime television, you 715 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:36,119 would think that it is. Well, in contrast 716 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,960 to what you did in true crime television 717 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,440 to now a podcast, what's the difference? What 718 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,299 do you like about the podcast? 719 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,319 Yeah. The podcast really allows me to go 720 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:47,319 as deep as I need to and, you 721 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:50,384 know, go down all the trails that are 722 00:26:50,384 --> 00:26:52,784 available to me and follow the story wherever 723 00:26:52,784 --> 00:26:54,644 it takes me. And sometimes that's 724 00:26:54,944 --> 00:26:58,065 six episodes. Sometimes it's 10. Sometimes it's 15. 725 00:26:58,065 --> 00:26:59,444 And there's really not 726 00:26:59,744 --> 00:27:02,410 anything that limits the amount of airtime that 727 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:04,009 you can have in a podcast because you 728 00:27:04,009 --> 00:27:05,549 can always release a new episode. 729 00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:08,490 So that's exciting to me. So for you, 730 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:10,110 what's kinda is the hallmark 731 00:27:10,809 --> 00:27:13,369 of a great true crime story that you're 732 00:27:13,369 --> 00:27:14,190 looking for? 733 00:27:15,015 --> 00:27:16,934 I look for twists and turns. You know, 734 00:27:16,934 --> 00:27:19,575 I look for those moments where you think 735 00:27:19,575 --> 00:27:20,234 you know 736 00:27:20,535 --> 00:27:22,295 the answers, you think you know who did 737 00:27:22,295 --> 00:27:23,275 it, and suddenly 738 00:27:24,134 --> 00:27:27,414 your entire perspective changes based on new witness 739 00:27:27,414 --> 00:27:30,789 testimony, new evidence, you know, and the idea 740 00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:33,430 that things are not as they seem. Same 741 00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:35,450 here. I'm really drawn to the mind. 742 00:27:35,910 --> 00:27:38,309 Yeah. What makes them tick? You know, bottom 743 00:27:38,309 --> 00:27:40,390 line in all of it. Well, based on 744 00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:40,890 your 745 00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:43,210 all the crimes you've seen, 746 00:27:43,765 --> 00:27:45,304 what advice do you have 747 00:27:45,845 --> 00:27:46,585 to people 748 00:27:47,044 --> 00:27:47,944 listening to 749 00:27:48,325 --> 00:27:51,384 this, elders and or young women, young men, 750 00:27:51,765 --> 00:27:52,664 about safety? 751 00:27:53,365 --> 00:27:54,825 So I usually tell people, 752 00:27:55,125 --> 00:27:57,125 if you're not worried about the person sleeping 753 00:27:57,125 --> 00:27:59,369 next to you, then you're probably gonna be 754 00:27:59,369 --> 00:28:01,930 okay because that's your biggest risk. Your intimate 755 00:28:01,930 --> 00:28:02,430 partner 756 00:28:02,809 --> 00:28:04,430 is your biggest risk for 757 00:28:04,970 --> 00:28:05,869 violent crime. 758 00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:08,170 And so if you have concerns about that 759 00:28:08,170 --> 00:28:08,670 person, 760 00:28:08,970 --> 00:28:11,369 get out now, right? Like that that is 761 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:12,164 very real. 762 00:28:12,644 --> 00:28:15,205 The other big risk is anyone that you 763 00:28:15,205 --> 00:28:16,664 let into your home. 764 00:28:17,045 --> 00:28:18,984 So talking about contractors, 765 00:28:19,365 --> 00:28:20,184 talking about 766 00:28:20,565 --> 00:28:23,684 anyone who might do regular work in your 767 00:28:23,684 --> 00:28:24,505 home, housekeeping. 768 00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:27,630 A lot of times these people might be 769 00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:28,130 casing 770 00:28:28,750 --> 00:28:31,069 these houses to see who would be an 771 00:28:31,069 --> 00:28:33,710 easy target for crime. So a good way 772 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:36,109 to not be an easy target, have security 773 00:28:36,109 --> 00:28:38,910 cameras, make sure they have a visible light 774 00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:40,894 so people know that they're working it on. 775 00:28:41,515 --> 00:28:42,955 I like to tell people wave to the 776 00:28:42,955 --> 00:28:45,275 camera when they come into my house, if 777 00:28:45,275 --> 00:28:46,974 they're, you know, not a friend, 778 00:28:47,674 --> 00:28:49,134 if if it's someone who 779 00:28:49,595 --> 00:28:51,035 who I've hired to come into my house, 780 00:28:51,035 --> 00:28:52,315 I want them to know that I have 781 00:28:52,315 --> 00:28:54,394 cameras. I also have a very large dog 782 00:28:54,394 --> 00:28:56,690 that barks and, you know, these are things 783 00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:59,650 that are very easy to do that just 784 00:28:59,650 --> 00:29:00,630 really make you 785 00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:03,250 a less likely target for this type of 786 00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:04,930 crime where they would think, I'm gonna come 787 00:29:04,930 --> 00:29:07,170 back and steal the TV and the computer 788 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:08,769 and, you know, they don't wanna come back 789 00:29:08,769 --> 00:29:10,714 to the house with cameras everywhere and with 790 00:29:10,714 --> 00:29:11,934 a big barking dog. 791 00:29:17,274 --> 00:29:20,154 Speaking of barking dogs, I travel with a 792 00:29:20,154 --> 00:29:21,450 168 793 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:21,950 pound 794 00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:24,190 Great Dane named Bob. 795 00:29:24,809 --> 00:29:27,210 He'll pounce on command whether he's in the 796 00:29:27,210 --> 00:29:29,769 back of my SUV or guarding the front 797 00:29:29,769 --> 00:29:30,269 door. 798 00:29:31,049 --> 00:29:33,609 Like most police beat reporters, I have no 799 00:29:33,609 --> 00:29:35,775 desire to become the subject of a true 800 00:29:35,775 --> 00:29:36,674 crime drama. 801 00:29:37,455 --> 00:29:39,795 That's why I follow a simple mantra, 802 00:29:40,335 --> 00:29:42,355 stop, pause, observe. 803 00:29:43,295 --> 00:29:45,394 It's not just a phrase, it's a survival 804 00:29:45,455 --> 00:29:45,955 skill 805 00:29:46,494 --> 00:29:49,615 crafted by FBI agent, Robin Juric, who I 806 00:29:49,615 --> 00:29:51,740 profiled in two earlier episodes. 807 00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:54,440 It reminds us to slow down and see 808 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,579 what others miss 809 00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:58,859 because danger rarely announces itself. 810 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,180 And the truth is most victims 811 00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:02,859 never saw it coming. 812 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:06,304 To learn more about Stop, Pause, Observe, 813 00:30:07,085 --> 00:30:09,644 subscribe to my newsletter, Stories to Keep You 814 00:30:09,644 --> 00:30:10,704 Safe on the homepage 815 00:30:11,244 --> 00:30:13,585 of truecrimereporter.com. 816 00:30:14,524 --> 00:30:15,825 I'm Robert Riggs 817 00:30:16,125 --> 00:30:16,625 reporting.