1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,740 The JFK assassination 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,099 files recently released by president Trump 3 00:00:10,639 --> 00:00:13,119 shed more light on the secret plot by 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,214 the CIA to use mafia gangsters to to 5 00:00:16,214 --> 00:00:18,475 kill Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. 6 00:00:19,655 --> 00:00:22,954 Investigative reporter Thomas Mayer, the author of Mafia 7 00:00:23,015 --> 00:00:26,154 Spies, his book about the unlikely alliance between 8 00:00:26,214 --> 00:00:27,515 the CIA and mobsters, 9 00:00:28,214 --> 00:00:30,635 is back to discuss the latest revelations. 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,539 Two Chicago gangsters, Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli, 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,140 were central to a congressional investigation by Senator 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,780 Frank Church in the mid nineteen seventies. 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,460 Both were murdered shortly before they could testify. 14 00:00:46,465 --> 00:00:49,504 I was an investigator for another committee working 15 00:00:49,504 --> 00:00:51,765 on a related inquiry at the time. 16 00:00:52,304 --> 00:00:54,864 The mob style hit sent a chill through 17 00:00:54,864 --> 00:00:57,604 the senators digging into CIA abuses. 18 00:00:58,909 --> 00:01:02,369 Speculation continues about whether the CIA or 19 00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:04,130 a mafia kingpin 20 00:01:04,510 --> 00:01:05,730 silenced the mobsters. 21 00:01:06,829 --> 00:01:09,709 Maronite discussed the murders and revelations from his 22 00:01:09,709 --> 00:01:11,795 new book, The Invisible Spy. 23 00:01:12,575 --> 00:01:13,875 His dogged investigation 24 00:01:14,254 --> 00:01:17,635 uncovered how former CIA Director Allen Dulles 25 00:01:18,334 --> 00:01:21,875 steered the Warren Commission's investigation of President Kennedy's 26 00:01:22,015 --> 00:01:23,394 assassination in Dallas, 27 00:01:24,430 --> 00:01:26,609 away from the plot to kill Castro. 28 00:01:31,630 --> 00:01:34,750 Thomas and mafia spies, we saw how the, 29 00:01:35,150 --> 00:01:35,650 CIA 30 00:01:35,950 --> 00:01:36,930 really escaped 31 00:01:37,444 --> 00:01:40,424 scrutiny. It remained a secret about their plot 32 00:01:40,484 --> 00:01:42,405 to use the mafia to try to kill 33 00:01:42,405 --> 00:01:42,905 Castro. 34 00:01:44,805 --> 00:01:46,504 And then they end up influencing 35 00:01:47,604 --> 00:01:50,405 the Warren Commission investigating the murder of President 36 00:01:50,405 --> 00:01:50,905 Kennedy. 37 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,500 What did you discover happened there? 38 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:56,819 In Mafia Spies, 39 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,579 the person who essentially, 40 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:03,119 executes, bad word, but executes the plan to 41 00:02:03,119 --> 00:02:03,939 kill Castro 42 00:02:04,585 --> 00:02:06,265 is the head of the CIA, a guy 43 00:02:06,265 --> 00:02:07,484 named Allen Dulles. 44 00:02:08,185 --> 00:02:09,724 And he was, 45 00:02:10,504 --> 00:02:12,585 the head of the CIA for about twelve 46 00:02:12,585 --> 00:02:13,085 years. 47 00:02:13,625 --> 00:02:16,905 He his tenure included a time period in 48 00:02:16,905 --> 00:02:18,125 the Kennedy administration, 49 00:02:18,930 --> 00:02:21,349 but he was also involved in the disastrous 50 00:02:22,050 --> 00:02:22,949 Bay of Pigs 51 00:02:23,409 --> 00:02:25,030 fiasco that the CIA, 52 00:02:25,969 --> 00:02:29,010 had essentially put together and gave to Kennedy 53 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:30,629 in the early days of JFK's 54 00:02:30,930 --> 00:02:31,430 administration. 55 00:02:32,514 --> 00:02:33,895 And so when that became, 56 00:02:34,995 --> 00:02:35,895 very unsuccessful, 57 00:02:36,194 --> 00:02:38,435 in fact, a number of the people that 58 00:02:38,435 --> 00:02:41,235 were part of that invasion, the Cuban exiles 59 00:02:41,235 --> 00:02:43,715 who had trained under the CIA, they were 60 00:02:43,715 --> 00:02:44,855 caught by Castro. 61 00:02:45,169 --> 00:02:47,489 So there was a whole prisoner of war 62 00:02:47,489 --> 00:02:47,989 exchange. 63 00:02:48,289 --> 00:02:50,709 It was a fiasco for JFK. 64 00:02:51,009 --> 00:02:53,030 He was very upset with the CIA, 65 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:54,069 and he 66 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:56,550 he got rid of, Allen Dulles. 67 00:02:57,185 --> 00:02:58,084 But when JFK 68 00:02:58,384 --> 00:02:59,284 was assassinated 69 00:02:59,664 --> 00:03:00,805 two years later, 70 00:03:01,344 --> 00:03:02,405 president Johnson, 71 00:03:05,185 --> 00:03:05,685 asked 72 00:03:06,064 --> 00:03:08,384 Allen Dulles to be part of the seven 73 00:03:08,384 --> 00:03:08,884 member 74 00:03:09,584 --> 00:03:10,805 Warren Commission. 75 00:03:11,264 --> 00:03:12,004 And so, 76 00:03:12,459 --> 00:03:15,020 Dulles was on there, and one of the 77 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:17,580 things that Dulles did that came to my 78 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:18,080 attention, 79 00:03:18,459 --> 00:03:21,500 one, in Mafia Spies, my book Mafia Spies, 80 00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:22,479 I show how 81 00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:23,360 Dulles 82 00:03:24,395 --> 00:03:28,074 essentially steered the other commission members away from 83 00:03:28,074 --> 00:03:29,134 looking at this 84 00:03:29,514 --> 00:03:30,735 plan to assassinate, 85 00:03:31,834 --> 00:03:32,894 Fidel Castro. 86 00:03:33,354 --> 00:03:33,854 Castro 87 00:03:34,155 --> 00:03:36,819 said a few months before JFK's death, I 88 00:03:36,819 --> 00:03:38,360 know you're trying to kill me. 89 00:03:38,659 --> 00:03:40,439 And he said that publicly. 90 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:42,500 It was out in the press there. And 91 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:44,900 he said, Two can play that game. So 92 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:45,879 if you're doing 93 00:03:46,260 --> 00:03:47,480 a murder investigation 94 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:49,960 of the president of The United States 95 00:03:50,405 --> 00:03:52,564 and you're part of a commission, you would 96 00:03:52,564 --> 00:03:55,284 think that they would at least identify and 97 00:03:55,284 --> 00:03:56,504 thoroughly explore 98 00:03:56,965 --> 00:03:58,185 all the possible 99 00:03:58,885 --> 00:04:00,905 suspects, if you will. Obviously, 100 00:04:01,844 --> 00:04:03,224 Lee Harvey Oswald 101 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:05,090 was the assassin 102 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:06,290 of JFK. 103 00:04:06,830 --> 00:04:07,889 But was there, 104 00:04:08,430 --> 00:04:08,930 other 105 00:04:09,629 --> 00:04:10,849 factors involved 106 00:04:11,150 --> 00:04:12,210 in that murder? 107 00:04:12,669 --> 00:04:16,189 And it was Allen Dulles who steered, as 108 00:04:16,189 --> 00:04:18,770 a member of the Warren Commission, steered away, 109 00:04:19,574 --> 00:04:20,074 people 110 00:04:20,935 --> 00:04:23,834 on the commission from looking at this Castro 111 00:04:23,894 --> 00:04:24,394 assassination 112 00:04:24,855 --> 00:04:27,814 plot. And so we see that fifty, sixty 113 00:04:27,814 --> 00:04:30,535 years later, these documents that are part of 114 00:04:30,535 --> 00:04:31,834 the JFK assassination, 115 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,220 they don't really provide any smoking guns 116 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,419 about who who may you know, any other 117 00:04:38,479 --> 00:04:38,979 assassins, 118 00:04:39,919 --> 00:04:40,979 involved with, 119 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,019 with the JFK murder. It was clearly Oswald. 120 00:04:44,735 --> 00:04:47,055 But what we do see is a lot 121 00:04:47,055 --> 00:04:47,714 of documents 122 00:04:48,175 --> 00:04:50,814 about the attempts to kill Castro that were 123 00:04:50,814 --> 00:04:51,875 kept confidential, 124 00:04:53,214 --> 00:04:55,394 the CIA claiming, well, it'll reveal 125 00:04:55,694 --> 00:04:58,035 sources and methods and such. 126 00:04:58,495 --> 00:04:59,714 And and so, 127 00:05:00,649 --> 00:05:03,709 Dulles on the Warren Commission steered that commission, 128 00:05:04,330 --> 00:05:06,889 away from that. And so much so that 129 00:05:06,889 --> 00:05:09,209 about ten years later, when some of this 130 00:05:09,209 --> 00:05:10,509 started to come out, 131 00:05:10,889 --> 00:05:12,110 in the mid seventies, 132 00:05:14,675 --> 00:05:15,254 Then president 133 00:05:15,954 --> 00:05:18,375 Ford, Gerald Ford, who was a congressman 134 00:05:19,235 --> 00:05:20,694 in the in the sixties, 135 00:05:21,714 --> 00:05:23,714 on the Warren Commission, he was part of 136 00:05:23,714 --> 00:05:27,014 that seven member Warren Commission. But later on, 137 00:05:27,235 --> 00:05:30,329 Gerald Ford said he blamed Dulles for not 138 00:05:30,329 --> 00:05:30,829 letting, 139 00:05:31,610 --> 00:05:34,649 the commission know about the plot to kill 140 00:05:34,649 --> 00:05:35,149 Castro. 141 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:37,610 So that was something. And, you know, a 142 00:05:37,610 --> 00:05:40,669 lot of the my interest in Allen Dulles, 143 00:05:41,689 --> 00:05:44,935 comes from mafia spies. But in doing my 144 00:05:44,935 --> 00:05:46,955 new book, The Invisible Spy, 145 00:05:47,334 --> 00:05:47,834 interestingly 146 00:05:48,214 --> 00:05:48,714 enough, 147 00:05:49,175 --> 00:05:51,574 Allen Dulles is also a factor. He's not 148 00:05:51,574 --> 00:05:52,634 the major character. 149 00:05:53,014 --> 00:05:54,475 But he Allen Dulles 150 00:05:54,855 --> 00:05:57,254 was a lawyer, a corporate lawyer, and he 151 00:05:57,254 --> 00:05:59,834 be his spy career really begins 152 00:06:00,389 --> 00:06:01,290 with the first 153 00:06:01,669 --> 00:06:02,169 agency, 154 00:06:02,629 --> 00:06:05,669 the first modern American spy agency. It was 155 00:06:05,669 --> 00:06:09,110 called the OSS, which was short for the 156 00:06:09,110 --> 00:06:10,490 Office of Strategic 157 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:11,370 Services. 158 00:06:12,069 --> 00:06:14,569 The s the focus of my book, Ernest 159 00:06:14,629 --> 00:06:15,129 Cuneo, 160 00:06:16,194 --> 00:06:17,014 he was 161 00:06:17,394 --> 00:06:19,794 the first liaison. He was really the first 162 00:06:19,794 --> 00:06:23,074 American spy of World War two. He dealt 163 00:06:23,074 --> 00:06:26,595 with the British spies who were based Churchill 164 00:06:26,595 --> 00:06:29,899 put them in the top levels of Rockefeller 165 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:32,540 Center in Manhattan, and it was Ernest Cuneo's 166 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,519 job to deal with them. But one of 167 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:37,080 the earlier folks that was recruited to the 168 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:37,580 OSS 169 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,420 was Alan Dulles. And they actually worked together 170 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,379 with Ernest Cuneo on some of the early, 171 00:06:45,454 --> 00:06:45,954 espionage 172 00:06:46,654 --> 00:06:48,995 schemes that were put together by the OSS. 173 00:06:49,055 --> 00:06:49,795 And then, 174 00:06:50,814 --> 00:06:53,475 Dulles was so smart and so successful 175 00:06:53,855 --> 00:06:55,555 that they sent him to Switzerland, 176 00:06:56,095 --> 00:06:58,095 and he dealt with a lot of spy 177 00:06:58,095 --> 00:06:58,595 schemes 178 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,620 during World War two. 179 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:01,740 And so, 180 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,560 Dulles was aware of Cuneo. And then after 181 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,199 World War two, when Dulles becomes the head 182 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:09,180 of the CIA, 183 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:10,860 which is the new, 184 00:07:11,625 --> 00:07:12,365 and modern, 185 00:07:14,024 --> 00:07:17,165 spy agency that still exists obviously today. 186 00:07:17,944 --> 00:07:18,925 By the 1950s 187 00:07:19,225 --> 00:07:20,524 and even the sixties, 188 00:07:20,824 --> 00:07:23,064 Cuneo was an asset. He was in private 189 00:07:23,064 --> 00:07:25,629 life. He was working with e Ian Fleming, 190 00:07:25,629 --> 00:07:28,050 the creator of, James Bond. 191 00:07:28,430 --> 00:07:30,750 But as I show in the Invisible Spy, 192 00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:31,569 my new book, 193 00:07:32,029 --> 00:07:35,310 there were there were exchanges between Dulles and 194 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:38,995 and, Cuneo. And Cuneo would at times be 195 00:07:38,995 --> 00:07:41,894 a tipster as an asset, giving information 196 00:07:42,435 --> 00:07:44,055 to Dulles and the CIA. 197 00:07:44,995 --> 00:07:45,495 When 198 00:07:46,354 --> 00:07:47,495 Kennedy's assassination 199 00:07:47,954 --> 00:07:50,435 takes place and Dulles is put on the 200 00:07:50,435 --> 00:07:51,495 Warren Commission, 201 00:07:52,389 --> 00:07:54,310 it was clear that not only is Dulles 202 00:07:54,310 --> 00:07:56,970 trying to steer things away from the, Castro 203 00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:58,329 murder plot, 204 00:07:58,789 --> 00:08:00,410 but in the middle of that, 205 00:08:01,189 --> 00:08:02,870 one of the big things that was con 206 00:08:02,949 --> 00:08:06,004 of concern to Dulles, the CIA, and the 207 00:08:06,004 --> 00:08:08,884 FBI, J Edgar Hoover, was they didn't wanna 208 00:08:08,884 --> 00:08:09,625 be blamed 209 00:08:10,245 --> 00:08:10,745 for, 210 00:08:11,925 --> 00:08:12,745 not protecting 211 00:08:13,365 --> 00:08:17,305 president Kennedy sufficiently enough to avoid being assassinated 212 00:08:18,084 --> 00:08:18,904 by Oswald. 213 00:08:19,379 --> 00:08:21,939 Oswald was already on the radar screen of 214 00:08:21,939 --> 00:08:22,759 the CIA. 215 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:26,180 Oswald had gone down to Mexico. He had 216 00:08:26,180 --> 00:08:28,180 been to the Cuban embassy. He had been 217 00:08:28,180 --> 00:08:30,420 to the Russian embassy only a few months 218 00:08:30,420 --> 00:08:32,360 before JFK's assassination. 219 00:08:32,820 --> 00:08:35,584 So he's on the radar screen. And so 220 00:08:35,584 --> 00:08:38,565 when when Kennedy is murdered by Oswald, 221 00:08:39,584 --> 00:08:39,745 the 222 00:08:40,544 --> 00:08:42,084 what you see in these recently 223 00:08:42,544 --> 00:08:43,605 released papers 224 00:08:44,065 --> 00:08:44,644 is that, 225 00:08:45,424 --> 00:08:47,584 both the CIA and the FBI were very 226 00:08:47,584 --> 00:08:50,730 concerned about not being blamed for not protecting 227 00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:54,110 the president of The United States. And so, 228 00:08:54,809 --> 00:08:57,210 what happens is that what I found in 229 00:08:57,210 --> 00:08:57,870 my research 230 00:08:58,250 --> 00:09:01,070 is that there are some documents, FBI documents, 231 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:04,235 that show that Ernest Cuneo, the subject of 232 00:09:04,235 --> 00:09:04,894 the invisible 233 00:09:05,274 --> 00:09:05,774 spy, 234 00:09:06,315 --> 00:09:09,434 was approached he was in contact with Allen 235 00:09:09,434 --> 00:09:09,934 Dulles 236 00:09:10,634 --> 00:09:13,695 while Dulles was on the Warren Commission. 237 00:09:14,154 --> 00:09:14,634 And, 238 00:09:15,034 --> 00:09:15,534 Cuneo, 239 00:09:16,450 --> 00:09:18,929 who had been a journalist, was preparing to 240 00:09:18,929 --> 00:09:23,190 write a story ostensibly for the Saturday Evening 241 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:26,210 Post, which was a very popular magazine at 242 00:09:26,210 --> 00:09:29,669 that time. A big inside the Warren Commission, 243 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:32,815 by Ernest Cuneo. This is what he was 244 00:09:32,815 --> 00:09:33,315 preparing. 245 00:09:33,615 --> 00:09:34,595 And his source 246 00:09:35,055 --> 00:09:38,735 was Allen Dulles. And Cuneo, though then goes 247 00:09:38,735 --> 00:09:40,274 to his friend, Hoover, 248 00:09:40,654 --> 00:09:41,634 at the FBI. 249 00:09:42,095 --> 00:09:43,235 And it's documents, 250 00:09:43,959 --> 00:09:46,860 which are kind of known in bureaucratic terms 251 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,639 as cover your ass documents, that in other 252 00:09:49,639 --> 00:09:52,519 words, Cuneo came through the door, said, I'm 253 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:54,059 talking to Allen Dulles, 254 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,075 and Hoover and another top, 255 00:09:57,554 --> 00:10:00,054 FBI official put this in documents 256 00:10:00,434 --> 00:10:02,934 that said Cuneo is doing this piece, 257 00:10:03,315 --> 00:10:05,715 with the help of Allen Dulles. He says 258 00:10:05,715 --> 00:10:07,634 that Allen Dulles is talking to in fact, 259 00:10:07,634 --> 00:10:10,754 Hoover says that a federal judge who's who 260 00:10:10,754 --> 00:10:11,975 used to be in the FBI, 261 00:10:12,659 --> 00:10:15,139 is also I told him that Alan Dulles 262 00:10:15,139 --> 00:10:18,259 is talking to Ernest Cuneo. But Hoover says, 263 00:10:18,259 --> 00:10:21,320 no way. The president doesn't want this out. 264 00:10:21,539 --> 00:10:23,299 He's gonna get in trouble. So to kinda 265 00:10:23,299 --> 00:10:25,995 cover their ass, if you will, Hoover writes 266 00:10:25,995 --> 00:10:27,934 his memo, the other FBI, 267 00:10:29,274 --> 00:10:30,254 official writes, 268 00:10:31,194 --> 00:10:34,254 his memo and those memos from early nineteen 269 00:10:34,394 --> 00:10:37,375 sixty four. I find and I quote from, 270 00:10:37,949 --> 00:10:40,129 in my new book, The Invisible Spy, 271 00:10:40,429 --> 00:10:43,169 and what it shows is the first known 272 00:10:43,549 --> 00:10:44,049 leak, 273 00:10:45,629 --> 00:10:47,789 of a member of the f of the 274 00:10:47,789 --> 00:10:50,929 member of the Warren Commission to an outside 275 00:10:51,069 --> 00:10:53,855 source during the the deliberations 276 00:10:54,955 --> 00:10:57,595 of the Warren Commission into the death of 277 00:10:57,595 --> 00:10:58,095 JFK. 278 00:10:58,475 --> 00:11:00,794 So I I thought that was really very 279 00:11:00,794 --> 00:11:03,294 significant, and it also, once again, kinda shows 280 00:11:03,595 --> 00:11:05,774 the closeness between Dulles and, 281 00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:09,059 the subject of my new book, Ernest Cuneo, 282 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,220 in the invisible spot. 283 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:14,879 As a former congressional investigator, the significant thing 284 00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:16,419 I see is that 285 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:18,659 by not revealing 286 00:11:19,125 --> 00:11:21,445 the CIA's involvement with the mafia and the 287 00:11:21,445 --> 00:11:23,144 attempts to assassinate Castro, 288 00:11:23,924 --> 00:11:26,804 they closed off an avenue of investigation. And 289 00:11:26,804 --> 00:11:29,225 then this was really a murder investigation. 290 00:11:30,644 --> 00:11:31,144 Yeah. 291 00:11:31,684 --> 00:11:33,684 Of course. You know, when you do a 292 00:11:33,684 --> 00:11:34,664 murder investigation, 293 00:11:35,579 --> 00:11:37,279 you have to try to really 294 00:11:37,659 --> 00:11:39,259 pull out all the stops to try to 295 00:11:39,259 --> 00:11:42,299 solve it within seventy two hours. That, you 296 00:11:42,299 --> 00:11:44,319 know, when you when you study how murders 297 00:11:44,459 --> 00:11:45,679 are are investigated 298 00:11:46,299 --> 00:11:47,115 by the police, 299 00:11:47,634 --> 00:11:49,034 you know, and I've done that as a 300 00:11:49,034 --> 00:11:51,195 journalist. I once did a project. We looked 301 00:11:51,195 --> 00:11:54,075 at 300 murder cases on Long Island. That's 302 00:11:54,075 --> 00:11:55,595 one of the things that they say is 303 00:11:55,595 --> 00:11:58,095 within seventy two hours, there's that window. 304 00:11:58,714 --> 00:11:59,214 In 305 00:11:59,514 --> 00:12:00,894 the murder of JFK, 306 00:12:01,569 --> 00:12:02,629 the main suspect, 307 00:12:02,929 --> 00:12:05,909 Oswald, is murdered by by Jack Ruby. 308 00:12:06,289 --> 00:12:08,610 So that was, that was already screwed up. 309 00:12:08,610 --> 00:12:10,690 There were a number of screw ups in 310 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:12,949 there. But the fact that the Warren Commission 311 00:12:13,329 --> 00:12:15,110 was steered away from, 312 00:12:16,335 --> 00:12:17,554 the Castro 313 00:12:18,095 --> 00:12:18,595 assassination 314 00:12:19,054 --> 00:12:22,514 plans by the CA, which involved, among others, 315 00:12:22,894 --> 00:12:26,034 two mafia characters, Johnny Roselli 316 00:12:26,575 --> 00:12:29,290 and Sam Jean Connor, and they were the 317 00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:31,549 focus of my book, Mafia Spies. 318 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:34,889 You know, the fact that Dulles steered them 319 00:12:34,889 --> 00:12:38,170 away, it was something that, really affects our 320 00:12:38,170 --> 00:12:39,470 historical understanding, 321 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:40,830 of 322 00:12:41,495 --> 00:12:43,495 what went on there. And and and and 323 00:12:43,495 --> 00:12:45,735 I have written, and I've been surprised these 324 00:12:45,735 --> 00:12:47,735 new papers that have been released. As I 325 00:12:47,735 --> 00:12:49,894 say, they don't have any smoking gun about 326 00:12:49,894 --> 00:12:52,695 who killed Kennedy, but they show a lot 327 00:12:52,695 --> 00:12:53,434 of detail 328 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:55,179 about this huge 329 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,700 CIA operation 330 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,899 run out of Florida, essentially an undeclared 331 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:00,779 war, 332 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,179 that was started with Eisenhower, 333 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,500 carried out by the Kennedy administration. 334 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,580 And then when Warren the Warren Commission is 335 00:13:09,855 --> 00:13:11,154 convened, Dulles 336 00:13:11,455 --> 00:13:13,794 is trying to steer the other members away 337 00:13:13,934 --> 00:13:15,235 from looking at that. 338 00:13:15,855 --> 00:13:17,554 Well, Jack Ruby, who ran 339 00:13:17,934 --> 00:13:20,834 a sensational for its time topless club 340 00:13:21,134 --> 00:13:21,955 in Dallas, 341 00:13:22,575 --> 00:13:25,154 was really a wannabe gangster here. 342 00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:27,690 Did you find him linked to Giancana 343 00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:30,389 out of Chicago? Did he have links there 344 00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:33,370 or links to, the boss in New Orleans? 345 00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:35,910 Well, you know, I have to say, I'm 346 00:13:35,910 --> 00:13:37,990 one of the few people in twenty five 347 00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:39,850 years that have been writing about the Kennedys, 348 00:13:40,464 --> 00:13:40,964 where 349 00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:43,924 I've not tried to replicate 350 00:13:44,304 --> 00:13:46,865 a murder investigation. So the short answer is, 351 00:13:46,865 --> 00:13:47,924 I don't know. 352 00:13:48,544 --> 00:13:51,024 I think other authors should say the same 353 00:13:51,024 --> 00:13:52,565 thing. They don't know. 354 00:13:53,345 --> 00:13:55,845 Rather than speculate and create an atmosphere 355 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:57,340 of conspiracy 356 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,759 levels and such. I think the biggest scoop, 357 00:14:00,759 --> 00:14:02,540 if you will, as a journalist, 358 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,620 that has come out of, 359 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:05,980 the Kennedy 360 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,100 assassination 361 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:08,865 was one that I put, 362 00:14:09,424 --> 00:14:11,044 twenty years ago in a book, 363 00:14:11,504 --> 00:14:13,605 about the Kennedys, and I interviewed, 364 00:14:14,065 --> 00:14:14,884 Father McSorley, 365 00:14:15,345 --> 00:14:19,105 the Jesuit who counseled Jackie Kennedy after the 366 00:14:19,105 --> 00:14:19,605 assassination. 367 00:14:20,304 --> 00:14:22,789 All of her letters, my taped interview 368 00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:25,490 with McSorley, that all came out. But that 369 00:14:25,490 --> 00:14:27,269 was really news because 370 00:14:28,129 --> 00:14:29,429 now we know how, 371 00:14:30,129 --> 00:14:31,029 Jackie Kennedy 372 00:14:31,410 --> 00:14:33,330 reacted and all of the grief and the 373 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:35,970 thoughts of suicide that she had. This was 374 00:14:35,970 --> 00:14:36,710 all reported, 375 00:14:37,615 --> 00:14:40,014 back when I did that book in 02/2003. 376 00:14:40,014 --> 00:14:41,475 It was in the New York Times. 377 00:14:42,014 --> 00:14:44,334 It was on all of the major news 378 00:14:44,334 --> 00:14:46,574 channels, CBS. It was on the Today Show 379 00:14:46,574 --> 00:14:48,894 and such. That was real news. That was 380 00:14:48,894 --> 00:14:49,714 real historical 381 00:14:50,254 --> 00:14:50,754 news. 382 00:14:51,269 --> 00:14:53,269 Like Mary Todd Lincoln, you know, just, 383 00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:55,289 after the Lincoln assassination. 384 00:14:56,070 --> 00:14:57,529 But I think in terms of, 385 00:14:58,070 --> 00:15:01,049 I think it's important to get, have transparency 386 00:15:01,829 --> 00:15:03,049 and have the records 387 00:15:03,715 --> 00:15:05,735 related to the JFK assassination 388 00:15:06,195 --> 00:15:09,014 all become public, particularly at this late date. 389 00:15:09,554 --> 00:15:10,054 But, 390 00:15:10,995 --> 00:15:13,414 and I think I think that's important historically. 391 00:15:13,715 --> 00:15:15,634 But I don't think there's been anything really 392 00:15:15,634 --> 00:15:18,059 new either about Ruby or any other 393 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:18,960 conspiracy, 394 00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:23,740 involving alleged conspiracy with with Lee Harvey o 395 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:26,799 Oswald. And I do think it's really unhealthy 396 00:15:27,259 --> 00:15:29,360 for the American politic to 397 00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:31,440 constantly be engaged 398 00:15:31,845 --> 00:15:34,324 in conspiracies. I think people need to put 399 00:15:34,324 --> 00:15:35,464 up or shut up, 400 00:15:36,804 --> 00:15:39,365 plain and simple. And so I I I 401 00:15:39,365 --> 00:15:42,184 think it's important to look, always to look, 402 00:15:42,404 --> 00:15:44,644 but I think it's it's really important to 403 00:15:44,644 --> 00:15:46,664 also not mislead people. 404 00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:47,480 So 405 00:15:48,419 --> 00:15:50,899 I Robert, I don't know the answer with 406 00:15:50,899 --> 00:15:51,399 Ruby. 407 00:15:56,899 --> 00:15:58,500 Well, one thing that really struck me in 408 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:01,320 the latest batch of JFK documents was that 409 00:16:02,024 --> 00:16:02,605 the KGB 410 00:16:02,985 --> 00:16:03,485 had, 411 00:16:04,264 --> 00:16:06,184 Oswald under surveillance when he was in the 412 00:16:06,184 --> 00:16:08,985 Soviet Union, even while he was target shooting. 413 00:16:08,985 --> 00:16:09,804 And they concluded 414 00:16:10,184 --> 00:16:11,804 he was a poor shot. 415 00:16:12,904 --> 00:16:15,144 Yet from, you know, the six story of 416 00:16:15,144 --> 00:16:17,519 the school book depository in Dallas, he hits, 417 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:19,460 he has a headshot on a 418 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,700 moving limousine with the president. 419 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,580 Oh, there's it's loaded with 420 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,179 question marks 421 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,580 surrounding it. I mean, what murder 422 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:29,540 suspect, 423 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:32,740 says I was a patsy? 424 00:16:33,264 --> 00:16:35,504 You know, I've, I've heard plenty of murders 425 00:16:35,504 --> 00:16:37,125 where they, they say, Oh, 426 00:16:37,824 --> 00:16:40,464 he deserved it. She deserved it. Blah, blah, 427 00:16:40,464 --> 00:16:42,464 blah. I didn't do it. All that type 428 00:16:42,464 --> 00:16:44,704 of stuff. Or they say nothing on the 429 00:16:44,704 --> 00:16:46,004 advice of their attorney. 430 00:16:46,589 --> 00:16:49,709 But what type of murder suspect says, I 431 00:16:49,709 --> 00:16:50,690 was a Patsy. 432 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:53,250 That that is really, 433 00:16:55,309 --> 00:16:55,809 unnerving, 434 00:16:56,669 --> 00:16:58,669 to have that come out of Oswald's death, 435 00:16:58,669 --> 00:17:01,595 and then then he's murdered. It was a 436 00:17:01,595 --> 00:17:03,215 to it was a fiasco, 437 00:17:04,234 --> 00:17:05,535 as a murder investigation. 438 00:17:07,115 --> 00:17:07,615 And 439 00:17:07,914 --> 00:17:10,634 it's all to our detriment, certainly to the 440 00:17:10,634 --> 00:17:11,134 detriment 441 00:17:11,434 --> 00:17:12,734 of the Kennedy family 442 00:17:13,289 --> 00:17:14,910 that are crime victims. 443 00:17:15,610 --> 00:17:16,970 And I think that we have to keep 444 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:19,210 that in mind the closer I got to 445 00:17:19,210 --> 00:17:21,450 writing about the Kennedy's private lives, which I 446 00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:23,070 did in my first book, 447 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:25,769 and the impact. That's what you realize. They 448 00:17:25,769 --> 00:17:26,910 are crime victims. 449 00:17:27,664 --> 00:17:29,984 It's terrible what happened to them, and particularly 450 00:17:29,984 --> 00:17:30,804 Jackie Kennedy, 451 00:17:31,105 --> 00:17:32,804 to watch her husband's brain 452 00:17:33,505 --> 00:17:35,125 brains blown out. But, 453 00:17:35,904 --> 00:17:38,304 historically, for the country, it's been a real 454 00:17:38,304 --> 00:17:38,804 disservice 455 00:17:39,345 --> 00:17:40,085 for people, 456 00:17:40,384 --> 00:17:43,079 including one particular member of the Kennedy family, 457 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,059 to be fostering 458 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:45,339 conspiracies 459 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:47,419 and doubts 460 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:48,220 about, 461 00:17:49,159 --> 00:17:50,380 legitimate authority. 462 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,159 You know, it's just a disservice to the 463 00:17:53,159 --> 00:17:53,659 country. 464 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:58,125 In the latest, batch of JFK documents released 465 00:17:58,125 --> 00:17:59,585 by the Trump administration, 466 00:18:00,605 --> 00:18:02,924 did you find anything of interest in there 467 00:18:02,924 --> 00:18:05,085 of, you know, one of those moments of, 468 00:18:05,085 --> 00:18:06,144 oh, you know? 469 00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:09,244 Oh, yeah. I, you know, I found, 470 00:18:09,724 --> 00:18:11,644 a lot of stuff, particularly from my book, 471 00:18:11,644 --> 00:18:14,700 Mafia Spies, like for instance, Johnny Roselli. 472 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:16,859 I actually found his code, 473 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,019 level. The other thing is in Mafia Spies, 474 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,659 the two gangsters, Johnny Roselli 475 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:24,619 and, 476 00:18:25,159 --> 00:18:26,059 Sam Giancana, 477 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:28,539 they had brought in another gangster 478 00:18:28,945 --> 00:18:29,744 by the name of, 479 00:18:30,065 --> 00:18:32,244 Santo Trafficante. He had been involved. 480 00:18:32,865 --> 00:18:34,484 He was like he was 481 00:18:34,945 --> 00:18:37,184 a top mobster in Florida, but he was 482 00:18:37,184 --> 00:18:39,664 also involved with them when they were running 483 00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:40,325 a casino 484 00:18:41,105 --> 00:18:41,605 before 485 00:18:42,305 --> 00:18:44,569 Castro took over in Cuba. 486 00:18:45,109 --> 00:18:47,269 The the mob in America were running a 487 00:18:47,269 --> 00:18:50,549 number of casinos, including the San Sushi, which 488 00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:52,970 was run by Johnny and Sam Giancana, 489 00:18:53,429 --> 00:18:54,970 but also Santo Trafficante 490 00:18:55,269 --> 00:18:57,210 was involved. And some of the documents 491 00:18:57,589 --> 00:19:00,434 that have come out show that not only 492 00:19:00,434 --> 00:19:01,575 was there doubt 493 00:19:01,875 --> 00:19:03,255 by some of the CIA, 494 00:19:04,035 --> 00:19:07,075 agents involved handling all of this, like Bill 495 00:19:07,075 --> 00:19:10,674 Harvey, who had real doubts about Trafficante and 496 00:19:10,674 --> 00:19:12,855 whether or not he was a double agent, 497 00:19:12,914 --> 00:19:14,055 but there were other, 498 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,460 documents about whether or not Santo Trafficante 499 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,140 was was a suspect in the murder, eventually, 500 00:19:21,519 --> 00:19:24,660 of Johnny Roselli in 1976. 501 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:26,259 And so, 502 00:19:27,025 --> 00:19:27,924 those documents, 503 00:19:28,384 --> 00:19:29,125 the investigative 504 00:19:29,505 --> 00:19:32,305 documents provide a lot more light about the 505 00:19:32,305 --> 00:19:35,365 last man standing, if you will, in Mafia 506 00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:37,765 Spies, which is Santo Trafficante. 507 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:40,500 Well, and you think Trafficante 508 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,759 certainly killed Roselli. Do you think he killed 509 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:47,059 Sam Giancana out of Chicago? And interestingly, Roselli 510 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:48,259 is murdered 511 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:50,720 as he's getting ready to testify again before 512 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,099 the church committee investigating, 513 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,974 intelligence agency abuses. Both of them were supposed 514 00:19:55,974 --> 00:19:56,714 to testify. 515 00:19:57,174 --> 00:19:58,315 In fact, there were investigators 516 00:19:58,694 --> 00:19:59,515 in Chicago 517 00:20:00,214 --> 00:20:02,875 about to prep Giancana for his testimony 518 00:20:03,414 --> 00:20:04,394 before the Senate 519 00:20:04,855 --> 00:20:06,394 about the whole Castro 520 00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:08,640 assassination plot. 521 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:10,240 The reason why I think, 522 00:20:10,859 --> 00:20:12,160 well, with Roselli, 523 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:14,400 there are documents that indicate, 524 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:17,039 investigative documents, 525 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:20,320 that are part have been disclosed that indicate 526 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:21,200 that, 527 00:20:22,015 --> 00:20:25,054 Trafficante was the leading suspect in the death 528 00:20:25,054 --> 00:20:25,875 of Roselli. 529 00:20:26,414 --> 00:20:28,095 But why I think he had a hand 530 00:20:28,095 --> 00:20:29,554 in the Giancana 531 00:20:29,855 --> 00:20:33,375 murder, who Giancana was murdered in in the 532 00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:35,134 basement of his home. He had like an 533 00:20:35,134 --> 00:20:37,569 apartment that he was, he would hang out 534 00:20:37,569 --> 00:20:38,549 at night. And, 535 00:20:39,409 --> 00:20:41,429 and somebody came in with a silencer 536 00:20:42,049 --> 00:20:43,269 late at night and 537 00:20:43,649 --> 00:20:44,629 and popped him, 538 00:20:44,929 --> 00:20:46,069 six six, 539 00:20:46,769 --> 00:20:48,629 shots. And the shots were 540 00:20:49,089 --> 00:20:51,649 formed around his mouth, which was a a 541 00:20:51,649 --> 00:20:52,470 sign of, 542 00:20:53,204 --> 00:20:55,365 basically as a warning to anybody else who 543 00:20:55,365 --> 00:20:57,525 would talk that you're gonna wind up like 544 00:20:57,525 --> 00:20:59,865 this if you talk as well. 545 00:21:00,565 --> 00:21:02,184 And that was highly publicized. 546 00:21:03,204 --> 00:21:05,765 But, the documents that were released, one of 547 00:21:05,765 --> 00:21:06,345 the things, 548 00:21:06,644 --> 00:21:09,590 is that the whoever it was that killed, 549 00:21:10,130 --> 00:21:13,410 Giancana, we don't know who killed Giancana. There 550 00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:16,210 was never an arrest. But, apparently, whoever it 551 00:21:16,210 --> 00:21:19,109 was threw this the gun with the silencer 552 00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:23,305 out the window of a speeding car after 553 00:21:23,305 --> 00:21:23,965 the murder, 554 00:21:24,585 --> 00:21:25,884 apparently was, 555 00:21:27,545 --> 00:21:30,585 maybe heard the, police sirens. That's the theory 556 00:21:30,585 --> 00:21:32,684 of it. But that gun was found 557 00:21:33,179 --> 00:21:36,240 later on. That gun was traced back to, 558 00:21:37,019 --> 00:21:39,579 Tampa, Florida, which is the home base of 559 00:21:39,579 --> 00:21:40,559 Santo Trafficante. 560 00:21:41,179 --> 00:21:42,859 So I think to extent that there is 561 00:21:42,859 --> 00:21:46,079 a substantial lead about the death of Giancana, 562 00:21:46,859 --> 00:21:48,319 coming out of these papers, 563 00:21:48,634 --> 00:21:50,394 I think that's it. I think that's why 564 00:21:50,394 --> 00:21:51,615 I think Trafficante 565 00:21:52,235 --> 00:21:54,815 had some hand in the death of both 566 00:21:55,115 --> 00:21:56,015 Johnny Roselli 567 00:21:56,555 --> 00:21:57,055 and, 568 00:21:58,235 --> 00:21:59,055 Sam Giancana. 569 00:22:00,075 --> 00:22:01,630 And do you think the motive for the 570 00:22:01,630 --> 00:22:05,069 murder is they violated the mafia's omerta, that 571 00:22:05,069 --> 00:22:06,450 you never talk? 572 00:22:06,750 --> 00:22:08,190 Or was he worried about what they were 573 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:09,250 about to tell Congress? 574 00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:11,869 Well, I think the other gangsters were really 575 00:22:11,869 --> 00:22:12,369 upset 576 00:22:13,244 --> 00:22:15,904 about the behavior of Giancana and Roselli 577 00:22:16,365 --> 00:22:17,984 by getting involved because 578 00:22:18,285 --> 00:22:20,545 there was a national commission of mobsters, 579 00:22:21,005 --> 00:22:22,865 and they were supposed to disclose 580 00:22:23,164 --> 00:22:25,644 things like that to their fellow mobsters. And 581 00:22:25,644 --> 00:22:27,744 then they they never told them. 582 00:22:28,809 --> 00:22:31,369 And also they had got garnered a a 583 00:22:31,369 --> 00:22:33,070 tremendous amount of attention 584 00:22:33,930 --> 00:22:36,570 to the operation of the mafia, which was 585 00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:38,190 by that by the mid seventies, 586 00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:40,269 which much more on the run 587 00:22:40,585 --> 00:22:43,144 than they were in the late fifties and 588 00:22:43,144 --> 00:22:44,125 the early sixties 589 00:22:44,424 --> 00:22:46,585 when the mob in America really was at 590 00:22:46,585 --> 00:22:49,244 its height. It was making tons of money. 591 00:22:50,585 --> 00:22:51,325 And so, 592 00:22:51,705 --> 00:22:54,380 they paid a price. And I think, the 593 00:22:54,519 --> 00:22:56,619 the murder of both Jeanne, Conn and Roselli 594 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:57,740 was, 595 00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,420 in in 596 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:01,820 in response to their behavior, 597 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,820 whether or not, 598 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:06,840 it was to keep them quiet about what 599 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,794 they knew. And in fact, 600 00:23:09,254 --> 00:23:10,634 Johnny Roselli faced 601 00:23:11,014 --> 00:23:13,654 the possibility of being deported out of The 602 00:23:13,654 --> 00:23:16,875 United States because he actually came here illegally 603 00:23:17,254 --> 00:23:18,714 as an Italian immigrant. 604 00:23:19,575 --> 00:23:21,434 And so there was talk about deportation. 605 00:23:21,734 --> 00:23:22,554 So Roselli 606 00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:25,359 kind of intimated that he knew something about 607 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:26,100 the JFK 608 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:26,980 assassination. 609 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,400 And what he knew, we don't know because 610 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,880 he was murdered. And so that was really 611 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:33,380 unnerving 612 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:35,460 to a number of senators 613 00:23:35,974 --> 00:23:37,595 who were part of that committee 614 00:23:37,894 --> 00:23:39,275 looking at all of this. 615 00:23:39,575 --> 00:23:41,815 Gary Hart, for instance, that's a name I 616 00:23:41,815 --> 00:23:43,595 think people would remember. 617 00:23:44,455 --> 00:23:46,234 And, he he expressed 618 00:23:46,695 --> 00:23:48,615 being very unnerved about it, but there were 619 00:23:48,615 --> 00:23:49,115 others, 620 00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:50,315 on the senate, 621 00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:52,850 committee, and they were all very upset 622 00:23:53,230 --> 00:23:54,289 about these murders, 623 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:56,529 and also the fact that maybe, 624 00:23:57,789 --> 00:24:00,350 both these gangsters may have, been able to 625 00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:02,850 provide more light about the circumstances 626 00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:05,170 surrounding the JFK assassination. 627 00:24:06,085 --> 00:24:08,244 But we'll never know because they were both 628 00:24:08,244 --> 00:24:08,744 murdered. 629 00:24:09,924 --> 00:24:12,164 Well, since Allen Dulles, who was the former 630 00:24:12,164 --> 00:24:14,345 CIA director on the Warren Commission, 631 00:24:14,965 --> 00:24:17,465 steers the commission away from the CIA 632 00:24:17,845 --> 00:24:19,705 plots with the mafia to assassinate 633 00:24:20,085 --> 00:24:20,585 Castro, 634 00:24:21,509 --> 00:24:23,690 Is this part of the reason it's just 635 00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:25,450 spread the conspiracy theories? 636 00:24:25,910 --> 00:24:28,070 Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's a, if you 637 00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:29,910 go to YouTube and you look up Allen 638 00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:31,450 Dulles, there's a NBC 639 00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:33,769 TV program 640 00:24:34,414 --> 00:24:36,355 that he did with John Chancellor 641 00:24:36,734 --> 00:24:39,534 of NBC News, and, it was a whole 642 00:24:39,534 --> 00:24:40,595 documentary about 643 00:24:40,974 --> 00:24:43,214 the science of spying was the name of 644 00:24:43,214 --> 00:24:43,714 it. 645 00:24:44,095 --> 00:24:45,534 So you go to YouTube and you look 646 00:24:45,534 --> 00:24:47,849 it up, it's there. And Dulles is interviewed 647 00:24:47,849 --> 00:24:49,630 at his home here on Long Island. 648 00:24:50,009 --> 00:24:52,109 And he's actually asked, 649 00:24:52,410 --> 00:24:55,150 has the CIA ever tried to murder somebody? 650 00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:56,589 And Dulles says, 651 00:24:57,369 --> 00:24:59,865 no, the Russians, they would do so. And 652 00:24:59,865 --> 00:25:01,565 that was absolutely accurate. 653 00:25:01,945 --> 00:25:04,105 The Russians were involved with a number of 654 00:25:04,105 --> 00:25:04,605 different, 655 00:25:05,305 --> 00:25:06,445 murders and such. 656 00:25:06,825 --> 00:25:09,065 But he said, we would never do that. 657 00:25:09,785 --> 00:25:12,299 I would never ask other members of the 658 00:25:12,299 --> 00:25:13,679 CIA to do something 659 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:15,279 that I wouldn't do. 660 00:25:15,660 --> 00:25:16,480 And so, 661 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,599 you know, it's a complete lie 662 00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:20,880 nationwide 663 00:25:21,419 --> 00:25:25,115 to the entire country. This is about 1966 664 00:25:25,115 --> 00:25:25,855 or so. 665 00:25:26,315 --> 00:25:28,315 And as I said, that tape is on 666 00:25:28,315 --> 00:25:30,414 YouTube. You can easily find that. 667 00:25:31,194 --> 00:25:32,815 And so it's pretty extraordinary, 668 00:25:33,835 --> 00:25:35,134 the level of arrogance, 669 00:25:36,154 --> 00:25:38,315 that people like Dulles had. You know, bear 670 00:25:38,315 --> 00:25:40,470 in mind, in Mafia Spies, 671 00:25:40,769 --> 00:25:42,230 my book Mafia Spies, 672 00:25:43,169 --> 00:25:45,650 Dulles is quote unquote the bad guy, and, 673 00:25:45,809 --> 00:25:48,210 but, you know, in doing my new book, 674 00:25:48,210 --> 00:25:50,529 The Invisible Spy, which is not about the 675 00:25:50,529 --> 00:25:51,029 sixties, 676 00:25:51,409 --> 00:25:53,909 but it's about the World War II era, 677 00:25:56,335 --> 00:25:58,174 The the, Dulles is a factor in the 678 00:25:58,174 --> 00:26:00,575 invisible spy, not to the same extent that 679 00:26:00,575 --> 00:26:02,595 he is in my book, Mafia Spies, 680 00:26:03,054 --> 00:26:04,015 but he is, 681 00:26:04,494 --> 00:26:07,375 like as as I mentioned, he was involved 682 00:26:07,375 --> 00:26:08,115 with Dulles, 683 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,039 excuse me. Dulles was involved with Ernest Cuneo, 684 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:14,460 was the subject of the invisible spy 685 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:18,039 working together for the OSS at Rockefeller Center 686 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:19,500 in the very early stages 687 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,200 of the world war two. Dulles was a 688 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,805 terrific spy for the OSS. He was arguably 689 00:26:25,944 --> 00:26:27,244 the most successful 690 00:26:27,545 --> 00:26:29,244 spy for the OSS. 691 00:26:29,865 --> 00:26:31,545 And so one of the things I think 692 00:26:31,545 --> 00:26:32,984 the guys that came 693 00:26:33,305 --> 00:26:35,384 the men and women who came out of 694 00:26:35,384 --> 00:26:36,045 the OSS 695 00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:38,990 after World War two. One of the things 696 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:42,130 that was discussed that Dulles was involved with 697 00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:44,049 was the plots to kill Hitler 698 00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:47,309 during World War two. There were attempts there 699 00:26:47,309 --> 00:26:48,769 was an attempt to kill, 700 00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:50,450 Hitler. It was unsuccessful, 701 00:26:51,150 --> 00:26:54,404 but Dulles was dealing with those German Nazi 702 00:26:54,404 --> 00:26:54,904 spies 703 00:26:55,285 --> 00:26:56,265 that were involved 704 00:26:56,644 --> 00:26:58,105 in that plot to kill 705 00:26:58,404 --> 00:26:59,625 to to kill Hitler. 706 00:27:01,125 --> 00:27:03,305 And there was also a number of conversations 707 00:27:04,109 --> 00:27:06,589 even earlier that if if they had killed 708 00:27:06,589 --> 00:27:09,650 Hitler, would there have been millions of lives 709 00:27:10,269 --> 00:27:10,769 spared? 710 00:27:11,150 --> 00:27:13,410 In other words, would history have been 711 00:27:13,869 --> 00:27:16,849 different different if we had assassinated 712 00:27:18,954 --> 00:27:21,674 Hitler. And I think so cut to twenty 713 00:27:21,674 --> 00:27:24,315 years later when Dulles is the head of 714 00:27:24,315 --> 00:27:25,214 the CIA. 715 00:27:26,075 --> 00:27:27,534 As much as it is 716 00:27:27,994 --> 00:27:28,494 outrageous 717 00:27:28,875 --> 00:27:31,355 to try to kill the a head of 718 00:27:31,355 --> 00:27:31,934 a foreign 719 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,779 leaders to understand 720 00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:36,799 where they're coming from. I think when you 721 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:38,180 read my book, The Invisible 722 00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:39,059 Spy, 723 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,180 you realize 724 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:42,019 that people like Dulles 725 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,380 looked at 726 00:27:43,759 --> 00:27:46,744 their experiences with Hitler, and the fact that 727 00:27:46,744 --> 00:27:49,464 they failed to assassinate him and all the 728 00:27:49,464 --> 00:27:50,684 terrible consequences 729 00:27:50,984 --> 00:27:54,024 of that. And they looked at Castro twenty 730 00:27:54,024 --> 00:27:57,005 years later in cahoots with the r Russians 731 00:27:57,464 --> 00:27:57,964 putting, 732 00:27:58,679 --> 00:28:01,899 nuclear threat threatening to put nuclear weapons 733 00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:03,419 in Cuba 734 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,539 Ninety miles away from The United States. 735 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:07,579 Cuba 736 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:10,619 and Castro were perceived 737 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:11,980 as existential 738 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:12,940 threats 739 00:28:13,545 --> 00:28:14,924 to The United States. 740 00:28:15,225 --> 00:28:18,765 John Kennedy himself said that during the 1960 741 00:28:18,825 --> 00:28:19,325 campaign. 742 00:28:19,705 --> 00:28:22,184 But I think somebody like Dulles and those 743 00:28:22,184 --> 00:28:23,884 people that were in the CIA, 744 00:28:24,184 --> 00:28:26,664 who really cut their teeth, if you will, 745 00:28:26,664 --> 00:28:28,285 during World War Two, 746 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,200 They had that experience with Hitler and the 747 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,320 possibility of assassinating him. And I think that 748 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,080 was in the back of their minds, as 749 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,380 I now see it. 750 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,220 When you look at it historically, 751 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:43,360 it explains to some extent, at least some 752 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,815 of the background for the Castro assassination 753 00:28:46,194 --> 00:28:46,694 plot. 754 00:28:47,634 --> 00:28:48,835 You know, as as you may know, I 755 00:28:48,835 --> 00:28:50,775 was an embedded reporter in Iraq. 756 00:28:51,154 --> 00:28:53,554 And in that reporting experience over those years, 757 00:28:53,554 --> 00:28:55,734 I, you know, I met CIA case officers. 758 00:28:55,794 --> 00:28:57,654 I know some today that are retired. 759 00:28:58,309 --> 00:29:00,329 You know, they've all struck me as professional, 760 00:29:01,269 --> 00:29:01,769 ethical, 761 00:29:02,390 --> 00:29:04,230 and that it's a they came out of 762 00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:07,589 a very, very different agency than what's described 763 00:29:07,589 --> 00:29:10,169 in Mafia Spies. What's your sense of 764 00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:11,289 what the 765 00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,535 spy agency is today and how it changed? 766 00:29:15,075 --> 00:29:17,335 Well, I I I think 767 00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:20,194 it has changed a lot. As you say, 768 00:29:20,194 --> 00:29:21,654 it's much more professional. 769 00:29:22,115 --> 00:29:23,894 There were a lot more safeguards 770 00:29:24,595 --> 00:29:27,980 that were put on the intelligence agencies, including 771 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:28,799 the FBI 772 00:29:29,420 --> 00:29:30,240 after Watergate 773 00:29:30,539 --> 00:29:31,279 in particular. 774 00:29:32,059 --> 00:29:32,559 There 775 00:29:32,859 --> 00:29:35,119 was a ten year term put on the 776 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:36,880 director of the FBI. 777 00:29:37,579 --> 00:29:39,839 There was more oversight of the CIA. 778 00:29:42,204 --> 00:29:44,544 And then some, unfortunately, some of those safeguards 779 00:29:44,684 --> 00:29:46,065 are now being, 780 00:29:46,764 --> 00:29:47,264 dismantled, 781 00:29:48,204 --> 00:29:48,704 currently. 782 00:29:49,164 --> 00:29:51,504 But, yeah, I think that the CIA, 783 00:29:52,605 --> 00:29:55,345 became much more professional. I think what happened 784 00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:58,539 with the the attempts to kill Castro, as 785 00:29:58,539 --> 00:30:00,220 I mentioned, I think a lot of the 786 00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:00,720 motivation 787 00:30:01,259 --> 00:30:03,579 in retrospect as I reflect on this and 788 00:30:03,579 --> 00:30:06,460 doing the two books and particularly looking at 789 00:30:06,460 --> 00:30:09,019 a character like Dulles, I think they were 790 00:30:09,019 --> 00:30:11,585 very much influenced by, geez, if we had 791 00:30:11,585 --> 00:30:14,305 killed, if we had assassinated Hitler, we were 792 00:30:14,305 --> 00:30:16,164 told not to do that. The British 793 00:30:16,625 --> 00:30:18,805 discussed it quite a bit in the late, 794 00:30:19,505 --> 00:30:20,005 thirties. 795 00:30:22,225 --> 00:30:23,904 If we had done that, if we had 796 00:30:23,904 --> 00:30:25,125 gotten rid of Hitler, 797 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,400 how much suffering could have been avoided? How 798 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,960 many lives could have been saved? And so 799 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,420 I think that was part of the excesses 800 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,360 with this Castro plot. I think we were 801 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:37,680 at, 802 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,565 I I think there was also the attempt 803 00:30:41,945 --> 00:30:43,005 by the CIA 804 00:30:43,465 --> 00:30:45,164 in this early sixties 805 00:30:45,785 --> 00:30:47,965 to use buffers, if you will. 806 00:30:48,424 --> 00:30:50,345 You know, in the the Godfather movie, they 807 00:30:50,345 --> 00:30:51,945 actually say, oh, the family has a lot 808 00:30:51,945 --> 00:30:55,065 of buffers. Well, the CIA had cutouts. That's 809 00:30:55,065 --> 00:30:56,205 what they were termed. 810 00:30:56,769 --> 00:31:00,049 And so they didn't want to directly get 811 00:31:00,049 --> 00:31:01,349 involved in assassinating 812 00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:02,230 Castro, 813 00:31:02,690 --> 00:31:05,009 but they did have cutouts who dealt with 814 00:31:05,009 --> 00:31:05,670 the mafia. 815 00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:08,869 And so when you deal with, an entity 816 00:31:09,009 --> 00:31:11,650 like the mafia, and they realized this later 817 00:31:11,650 --> 00:31:13,815 on in in retrospect, that it was a 818 00:31:13,815 --> 00:31:14,795 big mistake 819 00:31:15,255 --> 00:31:17,974 because you can't control they have a different 820 00:31:17,974 --> 00:31:18,474 agenda 821 00:31:18,934 --> 00:31:21,734 than the good of The United States. And 822 00:31:21,734 --> 00:31:24,295 so the CIA members who didn't wanna get 823 00:31:24,295 --> 00:31:25,859 their hands dirty in this, 824 00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:29,539 they kind of relinquished control over over some 825 00:31:29,539 --> 00:31:31,539 of the plots to kill Castro. And I 826 00:31:31,539 --> 00:31:33,140 think that was also one of the reasons 827 00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:35,160 why it turned out so poorly. 828 00:31:42,194 --> 00:31:45,154 And now a revealing footnote on the connection 829 00:31:45,154 --> 00:31:46,454 between Frank Sinatra 830 00:31:46,755 --> 00:31:49,015 and mob fixer Johnny Roselli. 831 00:31:49,875 --> 00:31:52,275 When the movie From Here to Eternity was 832 00:31:52,275 --> 00:31:52,934 in production, 833 00:31:53,630 --> 00:31:56,849 Columbia Studios had well known ties to organized 834 00:31:56,990 --> 00:31:57,490 crime. 835 00:31:58,429 --> 00:32:00,210 Sinatra wanted a role. 836 00:32:00,669 --> 00:32:03,329 Studio head Harry Cohen said no. 837 00:32:03,789 --> 00:32:06,684 So Sinatra took another route. He went through 838 00:32:06,684 --> 00:32:09,164 a connection to the Genovese crime boss Frank 839 00:32:09,164 --> 00:32:09,664 Costello, 840 00:32:10,365 --> 00:32:13,025 who tapped Chicago Mobster Johnny Roselli 841 00:32:13,325 --> 00:32:14,545 to send a message. 842 00:32:15,244 --> 00:32:18,765 Roselli didn't mince words. When Cohen pushed back 843 00:32:18,765 --> 00:32:20,945 warning he had protection of his own, 844 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,640 Roselli reportedly told him, You're an effin' dead 845 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,500 man if you don't cast him. 846 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,180 Cohen cast Sinatra. 847 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:30,019 Sinatra won an Oscar. 848 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,579 And as a gesture that said everything, 849 00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:36,005 he later sponsored Roselli for a membership in 850 00:32:36,005 --> 00:32:38,345 the elite Los Angeles Friars Club. 851 00:32:39,684 --> 00:32:41,144 The source for this account 852 00:32:41,445 --> 00:32:44,404 and for the Genovese crime family's deep roots 853 00:32:44,404 --> 00:32:45,065 in Hollywood 854 00:32:45,445 --> 00:32:49,125 is retired FBI agent, Mike Campey's gripping new 855 00:32:49,125 --> 00:32:49,625 book, 856 00:32:49,950 --> 00:32:50,849 Mafia Takedown. 857 00:32:51,549 --> 00:32:53,789 In the next episode, Campey joins me to 858 00:32:53,789 --> 00:32:56,429 talk about the real mob and how he 859 00:32:56,429 --> 00:32:59,230 led the undercover operation that helped cripple the 860 00:32:59,230 --> 00:33:02,829 oldest and most powerful mafia family in New 861 00:33:02,829 --> 00:33:03,329 York. 862 00:33:03,950 --> 00:33:05,009 Forget the movies. 863 00:33:05,464 --> 00:33:07,085 This is the real story. 864 00:33:08,025 --> 00:33:10,744 I'm Robert Riggs for the True Crime Reporter 865 00:33:10,744 --> 00:33:11,244 podcast.