1 00:00:03,759 --> 00:00:06,179 Joe Pulizzi is known as the godfather 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:07,779 of content marketing. 3 00:00:08,445 --> 00:00:10,925 The godfathers that you usually hear about from 4 00:00:10,925 --> 00:00:13,565 me had mafia families in New York City 5 00:00:13,565 --> 00:00:15,984 or the Dixie Mafia in the South. 6 00:00:16,660 --> 00:00:19,140 So this is a departure from my true 7 00:00:19,140 --> 00:00:19,960 crime stories. 8 00:00:20,739 --> 00:00:23,300 I was intrigued when Pulizzi, the best selling 9 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:25,399 author of books for content entrepreneurs, 10 00:00:26,414 --> 00:00:28,974 surprised many with his bold shift from writing 11 00:00:28,974 --> 00:00:30,754 about marketing to crafting 12 00:00:31,054 --> 00:00:32,754 a compelling crime novel. 13 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:36,479 His most recent literary venture, The Will to 14 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:36,979 Die, 15 00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:40,640 plunges readers into a gripping narrative unfolding in 16 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,140 the eerie setting of a funeral home. 17 00:00:44,085 --> 00:00:45,785 Maluzzi's thematic choices 18 00:00:46,484 --> 00:00:50,024 evokes the real life case of Bernhard, Bernie 19 00:00:50,085 --> 00:00:52,585 Tidy, an East Texas Funeral Director, 20 00:00:52,940 --> 00:00:55,100 whose story is as chilling as any crime 21 00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:55,600 fiction. 22 00:00:56,780 --> 00:00:59,020 Tidy's case, which involved the murder of a 23 00:00:59,020 --> 00:01:00,880 wealthy, cantankerous widow, 24 00:01:01,185 --> 00:01:02,804 and his subsequent conviction 25 00:01:03,744 --> 00:01:06,224 shocked the nation and inspired the dark comedy 26 00:01:06,224 --> 00:01:07,364 film, Bernie. 27 00:01:08,390 --> 00:01:12,230 Like Bernie's tale, Pulizzi's novel explores human nature's 28 00:01:12,230 --> 00:01:12,730 duality 29 00:01:13,189 --> 00:01:16,469 and the sinister undercurrents that can lurk beneath 30 00:01:16,469 --> 00:01:17,130 the surface 31 00:01:17,564 --> 00:01:18,784 of everyday life. 32 00:01:19,805 --> 00:01:21,805 Joe Pulizzi joins me from his home in 33 00:01:21,805 --> 00:01:22,864 Cleveland, Ohio 34 00:01:23,484 --> 00:01:25,484 to discuss what it takes to craft a 35 00:01:25,484 --> 00:01:26,864 fictional crime mystery 36 00:01:27,310 --> 00:01:30,349 in the spirit of Agatha Christie or Raymond 37 00:01:30,349 --> 00:01:30,849 Chandler. 38 00:01:38,974 --> 00:01:41,295 Joe, I mean, you already had a great 39 00:01:41,295 --> 00:01:44,194 track record of bestsellers in marketing books. 40 00:01:44,879 --> 00:01:46,799 What possessed you to go off in a 41 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:47,620 crime novel? 42 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:49,140 I think the 43 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:52,704 most important part was I wanted to write 44 00:01:53,025 --> 00:01:56,084 something that my wife would actually read. 45 00:01:57,025 --> 00:01:57,424 And, 46 00:01:58,064 --> 00:02:00,625 she basically said and I said, you know, 47 00:02:00,625 --> 00:02:02,829 I've written all these marketing books. And she 48 00:02:02,829 --> 00:02:04,349 said, well, those are boring, and I I 49 00:02:04,349 --> 00:02:06,030 don't wanna read any of those. She only 50 00:02:06,189 --> 00:02:08,510 by the way, I've always written you know, 51 00:02:08,510 --> 00:02:10,830 it's been, like, to Pam, the acknowledgments and 52 00:02:10,830 --> 00:02:12,925 everything. That's the only thing she ever read. 53 00:02:13,465 --> 00:02:15,064 And I said, wouldn't it be nice if 54 00:02:15,064 --> 00:02:17,465 I could actually write something that my wife 55 00:02:17,465 --> 00:02:20,044 would read? And she loves mysteries and thrillers. 56 00:02:20,469 --> 00:02:21,769 So I started to 57 00:02:22,069 --> 00:02:22,969 try to outline 58 00:02:23,909 --> 00:02:26,549 something that she would, be interested in, and 59 00:02:26,549 --> 00:02:27,930 it was probably 60 00:02:28,229 --> 00:02:32,034 the most challenging thing I'd ever done creatively. 61 00:02:32,415 --> 00:02:33,935 Took me a while to get there, which 62 00:02:33,935 --> 00:02:35,474 we could talk about if you want 63 00:02:35,775 --> 00:02:37,314 to. And, and 64 00:02:37,669 --> 00:02:39,349 and came out with the the will to 65 00:02:39,349 --> 00:02:40,389 die. And and, 66 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:41,610 I 67 00:02:42,709 --> 00:02:43,769 gave her the 68 00:02:44,469 --> 00:02:46,489 the the first draft, and she said, 69 00:02:47,414 --> 00:02:49,175 this is the best thing you've ever done. 70 00:02:49,175 --> 00:02:51,094 Granted, she never read any of my marketing 71 00:02:51,094 --> 00:02:51,594 stuff. 72 00:02:52,775 --> 00:02:54,694 So and, and then I had an actual 73 00:02:54,694 --> 00:02:56,419 editor, you know, went through the whole process 74 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:58,039 and and published it. And still, probably to 75 00:02:58,340 --> 00:02:59,400 this day, it's one of the the things 76 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,211 I'm most proud of. Well, as you know, 77 00:03:00,211 --> 00:03:01,409 women are really drive this genre 78 00:03:05,775 --> 00:03:08,414 of their interest, both true and novels in 79 00:03:08,414 --> 00:03:08,914 crime. 80 00:03:09,614 --> 00:03:11,055 Did you get a sense from her of 81 00:03:11,055 --> 00:03:13,694 what appealed to her, what she was looking 82 00:03:13,694 --> 00:03:14,914 for in the book? 83 00:03:17,110 --> 00:03:17,849 So, yes. 84 00:03:18,469 --> 00:03:20,389 You know, they always, you know, at least 85 00:03:20,389 --> 00:03:22,229 if you if you think about I'm creating 86 00:03:22,229 --> 00:03:24,655 content for an audience, what are my audience's 87 00:03:24,715 --> 00:03:25,854 needs, I used, 88 00:03:26,794 --> 00:03:28,634 my wife as sort of the audience that 89 00:03:28,634 --> 00:03:29,854 I was writing to. 90 00:03:30,474 --> 00:03:30,974 And 91 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,280 probably to give you a specific example, the 92 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,599 ending, it's very important to my wife that 93 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:39,080 things are wrapped up, that there are no 94 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:39,580 cliffhangers. 95 00:03:40,664 --> 00:03:42,425 Like, she goes to a movie. If there's 96 00:03:42,425 --> 00:03:46,025 something that doesn't get resolved, she's unhappy when 97 00:03:46,025 --> 00:03:47,485 she leaves the movie theater. 98 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,020 So the same with any mystery or thriller. 99 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:51,219 And so she 100 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,200 she tends to read oh, she'll read a 101 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:53,700 Patterson 102 00:03:54,159 --> 00:03:56,020 or, you know, short sentences, 103 00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:57,219 short chapters, 104 00:03:59,425 --> 00:04:00,805 lots of lots of dialogue, 105 00:04:01,585 --> 00:04:03,425 which I love. I love to write dialogue. 106 00:04:03,425 --> 00:04:04,485 It's my favorite thing, 107 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,159 And, and then wrapping things up. So I 108 00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:08,780 was very aware of, 109 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,939 not to leave anything hanging 110 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:12,780 and and also 111 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,735 to to make sure that inciting incident 112 00:04:16,355 --> 00:04:18,035 happens as quickly as pie. And I had 113 00:04:18,035 --> 00:04:18,935 a lot of friends 114 00:04:19,714 --> 00:04:20,115 who, 115 00:04:20,514 --> 00:04:23,350 who read, you know, early drafts and whatnot 116 00:04:23,410 --> 00:04:25,250 that said, hey. You need to need to 117 00:04:25,250 --> 00:04:26,930 move this up a little bit or whatever, 118 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:29,569 and so that was really important where almost 119 00:04:29,569 --> 00:04:30,870 immediately, I want, 120 00:04:31,555 --> 00:04:34,455 something to happen that that, that gets the, 121 00:04:35,074 --> 00:04:36,915 the audience involved. And in this case, it 122 00:04:36,915 --> 00:04:38,215 would be my wife. Yeah. 123 00:04:40,169 --> 00:04:42,349 Your murder is set in a 124 00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:44,970 in the funeral home, in a funeral home 125 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:45,470 industry. 126 00:04:45,944 --> 00:04:47,464 And one of the things that appealed to 127 00:04:47,464 --> 00:04:49,084 me about the story is that 128 00:04:49,704 --> 00:04:52,204 I'd recently done an interview with a veteran 129 00:04:52,504 --> 00:04:55,360 Texas prison warden about the worst of the 130 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,300 worst he'd had during his career. 131 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,060 And one was 132 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,240 an owner of a chain of funeral homes 133 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,214 in East Texas. 134 00:05:03,535 --> 00:05:06,915 Very bright, charming guy. So charming that 135 00:05:08,175 --> 00:05:10,894 when my friend was warden, this guy was 136 00:05:10,894 --> 00:05:14,160 the administrative assistant. Inmates run the prisons here 137 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:14,980 in one sense. 138 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,080 But he had gotten into drug smuggling. He 139 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,819 had a pilot's license. And he got 140 00:05:21,375 --> 00:05:24,175 caught because he was getting divorced, and his 141 00:05:24,175 --> 00:05:26,894 wife to be turned him in. And he 142 00:05:26,894 --> 00:05:29,360 got out on bail, and realized she had 143 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,279 done this, and he killed her. But then 144 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,139 he used the funeral home and this 145 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,959 apparatus and everything in there to dissolve her 146 00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:39,865 body. And as the warden said, down the 147 00:05:39,865 --> 00:05:41,085 drain she went. 148 00:05:43,545 --> 00:05:44,045 So 149 00:05:44,910 --> 00:05:47,629 give us the without giving it away, give 150 00:05:47,629 --> 00:05:48,769 us the plot 151 00:05:49,470 --> 00:05:50,610 of your story. 152 00:05:52,435 --> 00:05:54,035 So, yeah, as you said, it takes place 153 00:05:54,035 --> 00:05:56,355 in a in a funeral home, and the 154 00:05:56,355 --> 00:05:58,995 main character's name is Will Pollitt, and Will 155 00:05:58,995 --> 00:06:02,329 Pollitt's father, Abe, is a funeral director who, 156 00:06:02,629 --> 00:06:06,089 who passes away through somewhat mysterious circumstances. 157 00:06:07,535 --> 00:06:10,035 And as Will comes back to 158 00:06:10,654 --> 00:06:12,834 Will, by the way, is a advertising 159 00:06:13,375 --> 00:06:15,954 manager marketing manager of a of an agency, 160 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,100 comes back home to Sandusky, Ohio where the, 161 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,580 where the murders take place and 162 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,580 basically just starts to 163 00:06:24,955 --> 00:06:26,955 figure out, okay. Well, I gotta take over 164 00:06:26,955 --> 00:06:29,115 dad's business now and and I've, you know, 165 00:06:29,115 --> 00:06:31,675 I I've gotta get things in order, but 166 00:06:31,675 --> 00:06:34,175 as Will's doing that, realizes there's 167 00:06:35,259 --> 00:06:37,199 some things that don't add up correctly. 168 00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:41,339 And Will realizes that there might be things 169 00:06:41,339 --> 00:06:43,899 going on in Sandusky, Ohio that aren't quite 170 00:06:43,899 --> 00:06:44,399 right, 171 00:06:44,774 --> 00:06:47,115 and down the rabbit hole Will goes goes, 172 00:06:47,175 --> 00:06:48,235 and Will has 173 00:06:48,694 --> 00:06:51,595 a very close friend, Rob Robbie, who helps 174 00:06:52,319 --> 00:06:54,579 and, and his ex wife, Sam, 175 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,439 who's also involved in the funeral industry. And, 176 00:06:57,439 --> 00:06:58,740 basically, the 3 Musketeers, 177 00:06:59,425 --> 00:07:01,345 they go out to figure out what's going 178 00:07:01,345 --> 00:07:02,485 on with this mystery 179 00:07:03,024 --> 00:07:03,524 and, 180 00:07:03,985 --> 00:07:04,485 deep 181 00:07:05,345 --> 00:07:06,404 seedy corruption 182 00:07:07,264 --> 00:07:09,830 in the city of in the the peaceful 183 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:12,710 city of Sandusky, Ohio. So that's basically how 184 00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:15,430 it starts and goes through, and, hopefully, you 185 00:07:15,430 --> 00:07:17,509 know, as you've as you've said, holy, a 186 00:07:17,509 --> 00:07:20,115 fast fast moving mystery reads really quickly 187 00:07:20,415 --> 00:07:22,115 and you get to the bottom where 188 00:07:22,975 --> 00:07:25,454 somewhat regular people who are very, very nice 189 00:07:25,454 --> 00:07:26,019 on the 190 00:07:34,974 --> 00:07:36,035 That's kind of what 191 00:07:36,574 --> 00:07:38,894 I think you found and I found is 192 00:07:38,894 --> 00:07:41,875 is that when you somebody that does something 193 00:07:42,014 --> 00:07:44,550 horribly, it's just, wow, on the outside, that 194 00:07:44,550 --> 00:07:46,709 was such a nice person, such a nice 195 00:07:46,709 --> 00:07:48,490 man, such a wonderful woman. 196 00:07:48,790 --> 00:07:50,790 They gave back to the community. They went 197 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:51,449 to church. 198 00:07:52,454 --> 00:07:54,535 And, of course, you you know, you peel 199 00:07:54,535 --> 00:07:56,475 back the layers and you find that that 200 00:07:56,694 --> 00:07:58,935 it's not all quite what they've lived up 201 00:07:58,935 --> 00:07:59,834 to be. So 202 00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:03,680 So, it sounds like Will is inspired by 203 00:08:03,819 --> 00:08:05,040 Joe in marketing. 204 00:08:05,979 --> 00:08:08,194 What what about the funeral home? Why the 205 00:08:08,194 --> 00:08:10,355 funeral home industry setting? Did you already know 206 00:08:10,355 --> 00:08:11,254 something about it? 207 00:08:11,555 --> 00:08:13,235 So I grew up in in the funeral 208 00:08:13,235 --> 00:08:14,694 home industry. My 209 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:18,240 grandfather was a funeral director. It was his 210 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,060 business when he, started working in the twenties. 211 00:08:21,919 --> 00:08:24,579 He started working for a gentleman named Fry 212 00:08:24,865 --> 00:08:27,845 in in Sandusky. So this is not basically 213 00:08:28,144 --> 00:08:30,564 based on anything real, but I do use 214 00:08:30,944 --> 00:08:33,079 the city and the things that I learned 215 00:08:33,079 --> 00:08:34,379 about the funeral industry 216 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:36,759 as part of the story. And so and 217 00:08:36,759 --> 00:08:39,019 my my grandfather, Leo Groff, was, 218 00:08:39,654 --> 00:08:41,735 one of the one of the most amazing 219 00:08:41,735 --> 00:08:44,235 individuals ever, and I was 220 00:08:45,095 --> 00:08:47,195 blessed with when I started working, 221 00:08:48,169 --> 00:08:50,490 15, 16, 17 year old, and I and 222 00:08:50,490 --> 00:08:51,149 I was 223 00:08:51,529 --> 00:08:53,690 figuring out my way around a funeral home. 224 00:08:53,690 --> 00:08:54,429 I had 225 00:08:54,730 --> 00:08:55,230 my 226 00:08:55,554 --> 00:08:58,035 father who was basically retired at the time. 227 00:08:58,035 --> 00:08:59,875 He was my teacher, so he started to 228 00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:01,575 teach me about the funeral business 229 00:09:02,035 --> 00:09:03,795 before I actually started to go out on 230 00:09:03,795 --> 00:09:04,295 calls 231 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:07,440 or, you know, be involved in the embalming 232 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:09,839 setting when I was 18 to 21. 233 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:13,279 And, I was infatuated by it, 234 00:09:15,725 --> 00:09:17,404 because unlike a lot of people when they 235 00:09:17,404 --> 00:09:19,404 go into the funeral setting and they're very 236 00:09:19,404 --> 00:09:21,004 hesitant and they don't know what to make 237 00:09:21,004 --> 00:09:23,585 of it, I feel very at home because 238 00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:26,139 I was 5, 6, 7 years old running 239 00:09:26,139 --> 00:09:27,440 around a funeral home, 240 00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:28,320 and, 241 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:29,840 it's where I 242 00:09:30,220 --> 00:09:33,294 realized that funeral directors are are perhaps the 243 00:09:33,294 --> 00:09:36,174 funniest people on the planet because they have 244 00:09:36,174 --> 00:09:36,754 to be. 245 00:09:38,014 --> 00:09:39,774 Because they you you can't if you I 246 00:09:39,774 --> 00:09:40,754 think if you really, 247 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,360 look at what you're doing every day and 248 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,200 you take it too seriously, it can take 249 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,919 a toll on you spiritually and emotionally. So 250 00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:50,544 you can't you almost have to, one example, 251 00:09:50,544 --> 00:09:51,745 and I think I use this in the 252 00:09:51,745 --> 00:09:54,945 book, is it's you you it's never he 253 00:09:54,945 --> 00:09:55,684 or she. 254 00:09:56,144 --> 00:09:59,169 They never use pronouns. It's always, you know, 255 00:09:59,329 --> 00:09:59,829 mister 256 00:10:00,209 --> 00:10:01,429 Smith or it's the body. 257 00:10:01,889 --> 00:10:02,709 And that 258 00:10:03,169 --> 00:10:05,570 that once that person has passed away, you 259 00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:08,004 sort of, detach the humanity, if you will, 260 00:10:08,004 --> 00:10:09,705 so you can get through the whole process. 261 00:10:09,764 --> 00:10:11,764 So and so I I just I knew 262 00:10:11,764 --> 00:10:14,165 that environment, and, of course, they always say, 263 00:10:14,165 --> 00:10:15,764 you know, you you're right about what you 264 00:10:15,764 --> 00:10:16,264 know. 265 00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:18,460 I know a lot about marketing, and I 266 00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:20,139 know a lot about funeral homes, so I 267 00:10:20,139 --> 00:10:21,840 sort of mash those 2 together. 268 00:10:22,379 --> 00:10:23,820 And the other thing is, and you and 269 00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:25,279 I have talked about this before, 270 00:10:25,665 --> 00:10:26,644 if you're gonna create 271 00:10:27,184 --> 00:10:30,165 content, you should you should have some differentiation 272 00:10:31,105 --> 00:10:33,105 as part of it. And I had not 273 00:10:33,105 --> 00:10:33,605 read 274 00:10:34,259 --> 00:10:36,740 a lot of mysteries or thrillers or known 275 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:38,419 about a lot of mysteries or thrillers that 276 00:10:38,419 --> 00:10:40,839 had the protagonist as a marketing professional. 277 00:10:42,345 --> 00:10:44,024 And not a lot no. Not a lot 278 00:10:44,024 --> 00:10:45,945 in funeral homes. I mean, there's some, and 279 00:10:45,945 --> 00:10:48,044 it's it's maybe a little bit more, 280 00:10:48,504 --> 00:10:49,959 than it used to be. But I said, 281 00:10:49,959 --> 00:10:51,559 I don't think there's ever been, like, a 282 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,720 marketing funeral home mashup in a mystery. So 283 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,079 I said, let let's go to town on 284 00:10:55,079 --> 00:10:56,519 that one and see if we can separate 285 00:10:56,519 --> 00:10:58,504 ourselves a bit. So what was your reaction 286 00:10:58,504 --> 00:11:00,264 to the family since they are in the 287 00:11:00,264 --> 00:11:02,664 business? Were they any concerns that, well, they 288 00:11:02,664 --> 00:11:05,004 might think this happened here with us? 289 00:11:05,470 --> 00:11:08,029 Well, I'll, I'll be completely honest with you, 290 00:11:08,029 --> 00:11:09,570 Robert. I wrote this, 291 00:11:10,429 --> 00:11:13,649 and I was so excited for my uncle, 292 00:11:14,245 --> 00:11:17,044 which was my grandfather's son, to to read 293 00:11:17,044 --> 00:11:19,044 this. And and it initially came out as 294 00:11:19,044 --> 00:11:21,125 an audiobook. I think you remember this. I 295 00:11:21,125 --> 00:11:23,870 launched it as an audiobook first and then 296 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:26,450 printed did the ebook and the print version 297 00:11:26,509 --> 00:11:29,230 about 3 months after that. And so I 298 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:30,290 had my family 299 00:11:31,054 --> 00:11:33,554 listen to the initial audio version, 300 00:11:34,414 --> 00:11:36,654 and I was very excited because I've sort 301 00:11:36,654 --> 00:11:38,754 of, like, a love letter to my 302 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,519 to my family, and they did not like 303 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:42,659 it at all. 304 00:11:44,959 --> 00:11:46,259 That's putting it lightly. 305 00:11:46,815 --> 00:11:49,235 They thought that I was making fun 306 00:11:49,695 --> 00:11:51,615 of the which I'm which I've not and 307 00:11:51,615 --> 00:11:53,375 I never have been, and I sort of, 308 00:11:54,014 --> 00:11:55,315 I'm proud of 309 00:11:55,639 --> 00:11:58,120 the people, the funeral directors. I I love 310 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,120 the service that they provide, and I it 311 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,960 sort of was, in my view, was a 312 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,720 love letter, but some people didn't take it 313 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,134 that way, and there's nothing I could do 314 00:12:05,134 --> 00:12:05,875 about that. 315 00:12:06,254 --> 00:12:07,695 I don't know if I would change or 316 00:12:07,695 --> 00:12:08,834 do anything differently, 317 00:12:09,214 --> 00:12:10,975 but I was a little disappointed that the 318 00:12:10,975 --> 00:12:11,750 family didn't 319 00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:14,309 appreciate it as much as as I do. 320 00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:16,149 So that that was the one that was 321 00:12:16,149 --> 00:12:17,750 the one downside in the one area that 322 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:19,894 I didn't expect. Do you think you'll stay 323 00:12:19,894 --> 00:12:21,894 with a funeral home setting? Because I really 324 00:12:21,894 --> 00:12:23,975 find it interesting. You know, we've got the 325 00:12:23,975 --> 00:12:25,595 case here in Texas, Bernie, 326 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,980 the funeral home director who 327 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:30,740 everyone loved, 328 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,279 and he was stealing from the wealthy widow 329 00:12:33,279 --> 00:12:34,740 and then murders her and 330 00:12:35,195 --> 00:12:37,274 stashes her away in a deep freeze. You 331 00:12:37,274 --> 00:12:39,134 know, I I'm sure you know the story. 332 00:12:39,434 --> 00:12:41,754 I've heard of it. Yes. Oh, my God. 333 00:12:41,754 --> 00:12:42,975 It's it's a terrific, 334 00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:45,120 interesting, interesting story. 335 00:12:45,740 --> 00:12:47,899 And because it's so different, we, you know, 336 00:12:47,899 --> 00:12:50,460 we don't have that much contact with the 337 00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:51,440 funeral home. 338 00:12:52,154 --> 00:12:53,934 Do you think you'll stay with that setting? 339 00:12:54,074 --> 00:12:55,774 So I'm working on the outline 340 00:12:56,314 --> 00:12:58,154 as as I have you know, you switched 341 00:12:58,154 --> 00:13:00,090 careers a lot, done a lot of different 342 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:01,850 things. I do a lot of different things 343 00:13:01,850 --> 00:13:04,250 as well or I'm trying to. So once, 344 00:13:04,570 --> 00:13:06,345 I wrote the novel, I went back and 345 00:13:06,424 --> 00:13:08,745 started dabbling back into marketing, and I'm sort 346 00:13:08,745 --> 00:13:11,084 of going back on the novel side now. 347 00:13:11,625 --> 00:13:14,264 And I've just begun to write out some 348 00:13:14,264 --> 00:13:17,290 mini chapters and outlines for the next book, 349 00:13:17,290 --> 00:13:17,929 and the 350 00:13:18,649 --> 00:13:20,350 it is probably not as 351 00:13:20,730 --> 00:13:23,450 much of the plot or as it used 352 00:13:23,610 --> 00:13:24,970 as it was in the original, but it 353 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:26,725 is still part of I mean, I'm using 354 00:13:26,725 --> 00:13:27,625 the same characters. 355 00:13:28,404 --> 00:13:29,945 They're still in the same positions. 356 00:13:30,965 --> 00:13:32,804 But I I heard the same type of 357 00:13:32,804 --> 00:13:35,279 feedback that you're giving me right now is 358 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:38,000 it's so interesting to people. They love the 359 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,480 inner workings of what happens inside a funeral 360 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,785 home, the embalming process, the cleanup, the pickup, 361 00:13:44,325 --> 00:13:46,404 going to get the you know, everything about 362 00:13:46,404 --> 00:13:46,904 that, 363 00:13:47,524 --> 00:13:47,960 that happens. 364 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:55,980 The 365 00:13:57,875 --> 00:13:59,955 bodies are coming to the funeral home, and 366 00:13:59,955 --> 00:14:02,115 the funeral home director and the embalmers are 367 00:14:02,115 --> 00:14:02,615 realizing, 368 00:14:03,154 --> 00:14:05,235 hey, this wasn't a natural death, this was 369 00:14:05,235 --> 00:14:05,735 murder. 370 00:14:06,355 --> 00:14:07,210 You know, and 371 00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:08,990 starting their own investigations. 372 00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:11,370 There's so many places that you can go. 373 00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:12,190 And it's interesting, 374 00:14:13,450 --> 00:14:13,950 although 375 00:14:14,730 --> 00:14:17,904 Will Robbie and Sam are not private investigators, 376 00:14:18,125 --> 00:14:21,004 they sort of act like private investigators in 377 00:14:21,004 --> 00:14:21,665 the first, 378 00:14:23,004 --> 00:14:25,348 in in the first novel, Will to Die. 379 00:14:25,348 --> 00:14:27,507 And they're just curious people, and they know 380 00:14:27,507 --> 00:14:29,666 enough to be dangerous. And they have a 381 00:14:29,666 --> 00:14:31,825 lot of friends to help them along the 382 00:14:31,825 --> 00:14:33,495 way. And so I like that, 383 00:14:34,294 --> 00:14:36,695 you know, not that that's Harry Potter esque, 384 00:14:36,695 --> 00:14:38,214 but, you know, if you wanted to make 385 00:14:38,214 --> 00:14:39,894 a comparison, you take the 3 of those 386 00:14:39,894 --> 00:14:42,134 from Harry Potter. And they're always curious and 387 00:14:42,134 --> 00:14:43,809 inquisitive, something's going wrong. 388 00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:45,549 And you take those 3 and you put 389 00:14:45,549 --> 00:14:48,590 them into the funeral home atmosphere, and crazy, 390 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:49,889 crazy things can happen. 391 00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:05,970 Well, for our listeners, 392 00:15:06,509 --> 00:15:08,529 given an understanding of what 393 00:15:08,945 --> 00:15:11,665 goes into that crime novel they'll be reading 394 00:15:11,665 --> 00:15:13,985 on the beach of what it takes to 395 00:15:13,985 --> 00:15:14,644 do it. 396 00:15:15,745 --> 00:15:16,245 So 397 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:19,370 when I start a business book, 398 00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:22,070 it's fair I don't wanna say it's easy, 399 00:15:22,070 --> 00:15:24,389 but it's much easier for me to do 400 00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:25,290 that because 401 00:15:26,554 --> 00:15:28,634 I have a very specific idea of what 402 00:15:28,634 --> 00:15:30,875 the informational needs are of my audience. In 403 00:15:30,875 --> 00:15:32,714 this case, I've been living in the marketing 404 00:15:32,714 --> 00:15:34,894 industry forever, so I'm target targeting marketers. 405 00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:37,610 Here's what they need to know. Here's 406 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:39,910 how I'm coming at it from my point 407 00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:41,509 of view, and then I start to write 408 00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:42,375 out what do chapters 409 00:15:49,894 --> 00:15:50,794 because I 410 00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:52,990 because I didn't know where the story was 411 00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:53,809 going to go. 412 00:15:54,669 --> 00:15:56,590 And I wanted it. I really wanted an 413 00:15:56,590 --> 00:15:57,950 outline and I thought and I and I 414 00:15:57,950 --> 00:16:00,065 actually am going back to that process because 415 00:16:00,065 --> 00:16:01,665 I've been reading and watching a lot of 416 00:16:01,665 --> 00:16:04,065 what James Patterson does, and James Patterson is 417 00:16:04,065 --> 00:16:05,684 a big believer in outlines. 418 00:16:06,065 --> 00:16:08,144 And I think that's a easier place to 419 00:16:08,144 --> 00:16:09,285 start than just 420 00:16:09,850 --> 00:16:12,649 sitting at my computer just waiting for the 421 00:16:12,649 --> 00:16:14,410 spirit to un develop, and then I can 422 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:17,309 start start to type this thing up. 423 00:16:17,754 --> 00:16:19,915 So, but what I did with this one 424 00:16:19,915 --> 00:16:21,995 is I realized that I I had an 425 00:16:21,995 --> 00:16:22,495 idea 426 00:16:23,035 --> 00:16:24,955 for how this thing was going to start, 427 00:16:24,955 --> 00:16:26,095 the inciting incident, 428 00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:28,500 and where it would go from there. I 429 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:30,339 didn't have the ending worked out, but I 430 00:16:30,339 --> 00:16:32,839 had a good, like, starting point and middle, 431 00:16:33,059 --> 00:16:35,595 and I had to just sit down at 432 00:16:35,595 --> 00:16:37,534 my computer and start writing. 433 00:16:37,995 --> 00:16:39,995 And it wasn't until I got to about 434 00:16:39,995 --> 00:16:42,235 the 4 week process, Robert, where I felt 435 00:16:42,235 --> 00:16:43,695 I had anything usable. 436 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,980 And if I go back to the initial 437 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:48,519 writings and chapters, I would probably say there 438 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:50,759 was hardly anything in that first 4 weeks 439 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:52,059 that I ended up using, 440 00:16:52,764 --> 00:16:54,684 But it's almost like whether you're gonna run 441 00:16:54,684 --> 00:16:56,445 a marathon or you're going to the gym, 442 00:16:56,445 --> 00:16:58,125 you would need to work those muscles, you 443 00:16:58,125 --> 00:16:59,884 need to get yourself in shape, and that's 444 00:16:59,884 --> 00:17:01,184 what I needed to do. 445 00:17:01,529 --> 00:17:03,629 And for whatever reason, a month 446 00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:05,769 it took about a month for me to 447 00:17:05,769 --> 00:17:07,609 get in shape until I started to feel 448 00:17:07,609 --> 00:17:09,769 I had something going, and then I got 449 00:17:09,769 --> 00:17:10,750 into a rhythm 450 00:17:11,394 --> 00:17:13,715 where every morning, I would spend 2 to 451 00:17:13,715 --> 00:17:15,394 3 hours in front of the computer and 452 00:17:15,394 --> 00:17:17,414 write generally between 502,000 453 00:17:18,115 --> 00:17:19,494 Finnish words a day. 454 00:17:20,859 --> 00:17:22,700 And after about 2 to 3 months, I 455 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:24,480 had the initial draft done. 456 00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:26,079 So it was 457 00:17:26,994 --> 00:17:29,154 6 months of I have no idea how 458 00:17:29,154 --> 00:17:30,755 to write this novel. Where am I gonna 459 00:17:30,755 --> 00:17:32,674 go? And this is not as as easy 460 00:17:32,674 --> 00:17:33,894 as writing a, 461 00:17:34,355 --> 00:17:35,974 a business to business book 462 00:17:37,779 --> 00:17:39,779 to, I'm starting to write this process. I'm 463 00:17:39,779 --> 00:17:41,940 terrible. I'm never going to do this. Nobody's 464 00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:43,559 ever going to read this thing to, 465 00:17:44,115 --> 00:17:46,755 oh my god. I can't believe what this 466 00:17:46,755 --> 00:17:49,154 character just did. I had no idea. I 467 00:17:49,154 --> 00:17:50,994 remember there was one moment when I really 468 00:17:50,994 --> 00:17:52,515 thought I was on to something and I 469 00:17:52,515 --> 00:17:54,539 was feeling good about it. I came downstairs 470 00:17:54,599 --> 00:17:56,440 and I went to talk to my wife 471 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,960 about it, and I said, you have no 472 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,359 idea what Will did today. And she's like, 473 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,694 what are you talking about? What Will don't 474 00:18:02,694 --> 00:18:04,054 you I mean, you're the right don't you 475 00:18:04,054 --> 00:18:05,974 know? I said, no. I had no idea 476 00:18:05,974 --> 00:18:07,815 it was gonna go that direction, and that's 477 00:18:07,815 --> 00:18:08,315 what 478 00:18:08,615 --> 00:18:10,634 was new and different about this process 479 00:18:11,169 --> 00:18:13,410 versus writing a nonfiction book is because I 480 00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:15,029 know exactly where I'm going 481 00:18:15,490 --> 00:18:16,869 in a nonfiction book. 482 00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:19,029 In a fiction novel, 483 00:18:19,394 --> 00:18:22,115 sometimes the characters do whatever they do, and 484 00:18:22,115 --> 00:18:24,275 I don't you know, it just it just 485 00:18:24,275 --> 00:18:25,715 comes out of the page, but you have 486 00:18:25,715 --> 00:18:27,075 to get to that point. And that's what 487 00:18:27,075 --> 00:18:29,009 I didn't know before, Robert, is is putting 488 00:18:29,009 --> 00:18:30,230 in the time and effort 489 00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:33,009 and get into rhythm. And that's where somebody 490 00:18:33,009 --> 00:18:34,230 like, James Patterson, 491 00:18:34,609 --> 00:18:36,690 it works wonderfully because they never get out 492 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:37,269 of shape. 493 00:18:37,605 --> 00:18:39,065 They get up every morning, 494 00:18:39,365 --> 00:18:41,125 3 hours, 4 hours, and they write, and 495 00:18:41,125 --> 00:18:42,904 they're never out of shape. And that 496 00:18:43,524 --> 00:18:45,204 when I and I and I run half 497 00:18:45,204 --> 00:18:47,410 marathons and I ran a marathon last year, 498 00:18:47,410 --> 00:18:49,890 and that makes perfect sense to me saying, 499 00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:51,269 I can't go out tomorrow 500 00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:53,730 and run a marathon if I don't train 501 00:18:53,730 --> 00:18:55,695 for it. You can't go out tomorrow and 502 00:18:55,695 --> 00:18:58,115 write a novel unless you train yourself for 503 00:18:58,414 --> 00:18:59,955 it. So 30 days, 504 00:19:00,414 --> 00:19:01,555 2 months of training 505 00:19:01,855 --> 00:19:03,950 gets you into the point where 3 or 506 00:19:03,950 --> 00:19:05,789 4 months later, you have a first draft 507 00:19:05,789 --> 00:19:07,809 of a novel. Now that you're into this, 508 00:19:08,349 --> 00:19:10,829 what is your sense about why we are 509 00:19:10,829 --> 00:19:11,970 so intrigued 510 00:19:12,509 --> 00:19:13,250 by murder, 511 00:19:13,615 --> 00:19:14,434 men and women. 512 00:19:14,734 --> 00:19:16,274 I'll give you an example that 513 00:19:16,575 --> 00:19:18,414 happened with one of my friends that's happening 514 00:19:18,414 --> 00:19:18,914 now. 515 00:19:19,454 --> 00:19:21,794 There is one woman in our friend group 516 00:19:22,494 --> 00:19:22,994 that 517 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:27,119 is very straight laced. She's very she's she 518 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:28,899 never does anything questionable. 519 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,319 You'd never see her say a a naughty 520 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:33,424 word, if you will. 521 00:19:33,904 --> 00:19:35,424 Prim and proper, I guess, would be a 522 00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:37,684 good way to to, describe it. 523 00:19:38,144 --> 00:19:40,164 She loves reading the smuttiest, 524 00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:42,919 most horrific 525 00:19:43,299 --> 00:19:43,799 pornographic 526 00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:46,919 romance you would ever imagine. 527 00:19:49,044 --> 00:19:50,565 I use that as an example because I 528 00:19:50,565 --> 00:19:51,924 think it's an escape for a lot of 529 00:19:51,924 --> 00:19:53,605 people. I think it's like I 530 00:19:54,325 --> 00:19:55,924 you know, you what you want you don't 531 00:19:55,924 --> 00:19:58,190 wanna go and be at the beach, as 532 00:19:58,190 --> 00:20:00,529 you said, at Beach Read and read about 533 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:01,970 you working in an office 534 00:20:03,069 --> 00:20:04,929 Yeah. If they came from an office. 535 00:20:05,265 --> 00:20:08,625 You wanna read something outlandish, something exciting, something 536 00:20:08,625 --> 00:20:09,765 that they would never 537 00:20:10,144 --> 00:20:11,845 possibly get involved with. 538 00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:15,240 Take them away from whatever the worries of 539 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,000 the current were. So that that's kinda what 540 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,140 my thinking is, 541 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,720 because when I my my wife, huge reader, 542 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,484 she usually has 2 or 3 novels go 543 00:20:23,484 --> 00:20:24,845 on at a at a time, 544 00:20:25,704 --> 00:20:27,724 and has probably read every one of Patterson's 545 00:20:27,785 --> 00:20:29,944 books that have been out there. It is 546 00:20:29,944 --> 00:20:31,805 a real escape for her, 547 00:20:32,369 --> 00:20:34,930 and I see that she has less stress 548 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:36,849 during her day if she's had a chance 549 00:20:36,849 --> 00:20:39,089 to spend 30 or 45 minutes at least 550 00:20:39,089 --> 00:20:40,630 reading a little bit of a novel. 551 00:20:41,715 --> 00:20:43,875 So from that standpoint, I think that, 552 00:20:44,595 --> 00:20:46,994 some people actually need that. They need that 553 00:20:46,994 --> 00:20:47,494 escape, 554 00:20:48,099 --> 00:20:49,539 and I think that that's what it is. 555 00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:51,240 And I it's it's funny that 556 00:20:51,619 --> 00:20:54,180 the whole romance novel with my my other 557 00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:56,599 friend that I would have never expected that, 558 00:20:57,545 --> 00:20:59,625 but that's something that that's her that's her 559 00:20:59,625 --> 00:21:02,184 escape. And so I think the same thing 560 00:21:02,184 --> 00:21:03,804 goes for for murder novels. 561 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,000 Well, one of the things I've seen based 562 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,220 on research is that in periods of anxiety 563 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,579 and stress, a lot of that these days, 564 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:13,700 the 565 00:21:14,115 --> 00:21:14,615 appetite 566 00:21:15,075 --> 00:21:18,454 for crime novels and true crime increases significantly. 567 00:21:18,835 --> 00:21:20,275 Why do you think that is? Is that 568 00:21:20,275 --> 00:21:22,755 just because it is a de stressor? It 569 00:21:22,755 --> 00:21:25,809 does relieve that anxiety? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you 570 00:21:25,809 --> 00:21:28,549 feel like that if you're reading police procedurals 571 00:21:29,009 --> 00:21:30,769 and and, you know, where there is an 572 00:21:30,769 --> 00:21:31,750 ending and stuff, 573 00:21:32,325 --> 00:21:33,224 maybe it restores 574 00:21:33,684 --> 00:21:36,184 faith that things will get better, things will 575 00:21:36,484 --> 00:21:37,785 work their way out. 576 00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:39,944 Now my interest in 577 00:21:40,539 --> 00:21:42,880 what I do, I'm really interested in 578 00:21:43,339 --> 00:21:45,519 what makes these criminals tick 579 00:21:45,899 --> 00:21:47,279 the mind of the murderer. 580 00:21:48,224 --> 00:21:50,805 And I think deep down that many people 581 00:21:51,025 --> 00:21:51,765 are like, 582 00:21:52,384 --> 00:21:54,404 do I know somebody like that? Or 583 00:21:55,099 --> 00:21:55,759 could that 584 00:21:56,139 --> 00:21:56,639 person 585 00:21:57,099 --> 00:21:59,519 in bed with me, my spouse or significant 586 00:21:59,659 --> 00:22:00,940 other? Could they, 587 00:22:01,339 --> 00:22:03,179 have murder on their heart? You know, that 588 00:22:03,179 --> 00:22:03,964 sort of thing. 589 00:22:04,845 --> 00:22:05,964 But hey, I did want to tell you, 590 00:22:05,964 --> 00:22:07,184 I want to share with you, 591 00:22:08,044 --> 00:22:09,964 because I'm always doing research and stuff. But 592 00:22:09,964 --> 00:22:12,784 I was reading PD James, the great British 593 00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:14,670 true crime writer from, 594 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:15,470 gosh, 595 00:22:16,009 --> 00:22:18,410 19th century, something like that. What he what 596 00:22:18,410 --> 00:22:21,404 I really found interesting, she says, the most 597 00:22:21,404 --> 00:22:21,904 dangerous 598 00:22:22,365 --> 00:22:23,744 emotion is love. 599 00:22:24,285 --> 00:22:27,085 And she says the l word covers all 600 00:22:27,085 --> 00:22:29,664 motives for murder: love, lust, loathing, 601 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:33,179 and looser, which is the love of money. 602 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:35,559 And I thought, that really kind of sums 603 00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:36,859 it up. I mean, those 604 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:37,899 those are 605 00:22:38,494 --> 00:22:40,654 part of every kind of true crime story 606 00:22:40,654 --> 00:22:43,055 and and also in crime novels that you 607 00:22:43,055 --> 00:22:43,555 encounter. 608 00:22:44,015 --> 00:22:46,755 I love that. That's that sounds perfect. Absolutely. 609 00:22:47,109 --> 00:22:49,269 And it's what's funny is is that that's 610 00:22:49,269 --> 00:22:51,190 probably the same for the will to die. 611 00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:51,929 It involved 612 00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:53,210 money issues, 613 00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:54,250 love, 614 00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:55,210 unrequited 615 00:22:55,509 --> 00:22:56,009 love, 616 00:22:56,394 --> 00:22:58,414 loss of some kind. Yes. Absolutely. 617 00:22:59,274 --> 00:23:00,095 To a t. 618 00:23:00,634 --> 00:23:04,154 I interviewed an author here recently that does 619 00:23:04,154 --> 00:23:05,214 crime novels. 620 00:23:05,670 --> 00:23:06,890 They're really 621 00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:09,690 very closely 622 00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:11,210 based on real 623 00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:12,890 criminal cases, 624 00:23:13,335 --> 00:23:15,674 But he'll change things. But what really is 625 00:23:15,894 --> 00:23:18,694 god, it astonished me. He just sits down 626 00:23:18,694 --> 00:23:20,634 at the typewriter and starts. 627 00:23:21,609 --> 00:23:22,990 No outline. Nothing. 628 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:24,670 Just starts going. 629 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:26,590 And wherever it may. 630 00:23:27,369 --> 00:23:29,710 And I thought, wow. That's 631 00:23:30,125 --> 00:23:32,845 that's some discipline right there. You know, it's 632 00:23:32,845 --> 00:23:35,884 interesting. I love that there's no one right 633 00:23:35,884 --> 00:23:38,305 way to write a novel in my experience 634 00:23:38,445 --> 00:23:40,690 and in reading, you know, even on writing 635 00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:43,190 by Stephen King or wherever you whatever you 636 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:45,269 you look up to to the novelist. 637 00:23:45,809 --> 00:23:47,029 The only thing 638 00:23:47,454 --> 00:23:49,375 that is the same thing that runs throughout 639 00:23:49,375 --> 00:23:51,055 all these novelists is they do it every 640 00:23:51,055 --> 00:23:51,555 day. 641 00:23:52,174 --> 00:23:54,335 They do it consistently over a long period 642 00:23:54,335 --> 00:23:56,710 of time. Some of them use novels, some 643 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,549 of them just sit down, some of them 644 00:23:58,549 --> 00:24:00,630 have 5 going at a time, some of 645 00:24:00,630 --> 00:24:02,150 them just work on 1 and then work 646 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:03,924 on the next one. But that so they're 647 00:24:03,924 --> 00:24:05,464 all different except for that 648 00:24:06,164 --> 00:24:08,565 sometime during the day, they sit down in 649 00:24:08,565 --> 00:24:10,325 front of a typewriter or a computer and 650 00:24:10,325 --> 00:24:11,144 they write. 651 00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,500 And so and that's where I was like, 652 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:15,420 any if you wanna do it, anybody can 653 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:16,619 do it, but you just have to put 654 00:24:16,619 --> 00:24:17,840 in the work and the time. 655 00:24:18,595 --> 00:24:20,515 I try to block out the calendar with 656 00:24:20,515 --> 00:24:22,055 quiet time in the mornings. 657 00:24:22,914 --> 00:24:24,375 The phone is off. Everything. 658 00:24:25,154 --> 00:24:25,654 And 659 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,679 well, because I, you know, do a lot 660 00:24:27,679 --> 00:24:29,299 of research as well and stuff. 661 00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:31,140 But for the writing, 662 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,579 you gotta tune everything else out. 663 00:24:34,954 --> 00:24:36,554 I think first thing in the morning, it's 664 00:24:36,634 --> 00:24:38,234 it works the same for me. I'm very 665 00:24:38,315 --> 00:24:40,575 it's very difficult for me in the afternoon 666 00:24:40,714 --> 00:24:41,375 at all 667 00:24:42,154 --> 00:24:44,335 to write something that 668 00:24:44,730 --> 00:24:45,710 will end up, 669 00:24:46,170 --> 00:24:48,009 being a thing. It's like for and and 670 00:24:48,009 --> 00:24:49,289 I think a lot of it is is 671 00:24:49,289 --> 00:24:51,630 that in in my writing career, 672 00:24:52,244 --> 00:24:54,404 if I set myself to do this every 673 00:24:54,404 --> 00:24:57,045 morning, whatever happens while I'm sleeping in the 674 00:24:57,045 --> 00:24:58,565 middle of the night, I generally if I 675 00:24:58,725 --> 00:25:01,225 if I'm programming myself this way, 676 00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:04,210 it works in my favor so that when 677 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:05,730 I get up and I'll get my cup 678 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:07,569 of coffee and I'll sit down and I'm 679 00:25:07,569 --> 00:25:09,410 and I'm ready to go and whatever was 680 00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:11,775 working the night before just starts to unleash 681 00:25:11,775 --> 00:25:12,835 itself on the page, 682 00:25:13,615 --> 00:25:15,535 which I don't know why that works. You 683 00:25:15,535 --> 00:25:17,375 probably do more than I do, but you 684 00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:18,515 get into that rhythm 685 00:25:18,894 --> 00:25:20,869 and then you need it. And you feel 686 00:25:20,869 --> 00:25:23,109 like if you skip a day, you've done 687 00:25:23,109 --> 00:25:24,950 something bad, just like I didn't go work 688 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:26,630 out today. So you need to do that 689 00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:27,369 every day. 690 00:25:28,335 --> 00:25:31,134 I am the benefactor of honing the craft 691 00:25:31,134 --> 00:25:32,835 over so many years in newsrooms 692 00:25:33,294 --> 00:25:34,274 where it's chaos. 693 00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:35,630 Absolute 694 00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:36,830 chaos. 695 00:25:37,450 --> 00:25:40,009 And in television news, people might not realize 696 00:25:40,009 --> 00:25:41,630 this, you write for the ear. 697 00:25:42,525 --> 00:25:43,025 And 698 00:25:43,964 --> 00:25:45,404 if you go into a went into a 699 00:25:45,404 --> 00:25:48,304 large television newsroom and on deadlines, 700 00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:51,184 everybody's talking out loud to themselves. 701 00:25:51,609 --> 00:25:54,269 Because they're writing as, how does this sound? 702 00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:57,049 You know, turning phrases. You'd walk in there 703 00:25:57,049 --> 00:25:58,890 and think, I've walked into an asylum or 704 00:25:58,890 --> 00:25:59,390 something. 705 00:25:59,984 --> 00:26:02,164 But that has been helpful for me. Just 706 00:26:02,545 --> 00:26:04,785 covering the White House, other places. And then, 707 00:26:04,785 --> 00:26:06,944 you know, as you sit there, having to 708 00:26:06,944 --> 00:26:08,440 write a story 709 00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:11,140 on a notepad or something in chaos is 710 00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:13,240 very helpful. But now I really 711 00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:14,759 I value 712 00:26:15,355 --> 00:26:17,914 the quiet time and no distractions. You just 713 00:26:17,914 --> 00:26:20,015 can't have distractions and do this. 714 00:26:20,955 --> 00:26:21,934 A lot of people, 715 00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:24,180 they get up in the morning and they'll 716 00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:26,900 look at email or social. Oh, that's a 717 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:29,460 big no no. You cannot you cannot let 718 00:26:29,460 --> 00:26:32,144 your brain go there. Yeah. You have to 719 00:26:32,144 --> 00:26:34,545 stay in the go right go spend your 720 00:26:34,545 --> 00:26:36,625 quiet time. Go do whatever you have to 721 00:26:36,625 --> 00:26:37,125 do, 722 00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:39,650 and then you can push that off to 723 00:26:39,650 --> 00:26:42,289 later. It's very tough on the inspirational process 724 00:26:42,289 --> 00:26:44,289 if you if you let that come between 725 00:26:44,289 --> 00:26:45,589 you and your your writing. 726 00:26:45,924 --> 00:26:48,164 Do you pay much attention to real crime 727 00:26:48,164 --> 00:26:50,325 news and sort of your always sort of 728 00:26:50,325 --> 00:26:51,224 open to inspiration 729 00:26:51,525 --> 00:26:52,025 or 730 00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:53,924 you're just gonna let it happen in your 731 00:26:53,924 --> 00:26:54,424 head? 732 00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:56,350 If it gets to me, if news gets 733 00:26:56,350 --> 00:26:57,570 to me through other people, 734 00:26:58,029 --> 00:26:59,789 then fine. I'll listen to it. Somebody will 735 00:26:59,789 --> 00:27:01,230 tell me a story. Did you hear about 736 00:27:01,230 --> 00:27:02,049 this? Whatever. 737 00:27:02,755 --> 00:27:04,774 And may maybe some of that's inspirational. 738 00:27:05,075 --> 00:27:05,815 I have 739 00:27:06,595 --> 00:27:08,755 divorced myself from a lot of the social 740 00:27:08,755 --> 00:27:10,214 media that's out there. 741 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:13,410 Most of the news that I get comes 742 00:27:13,410 --> 00:27:13,910 from 743 00:27:14,369 --> 00:27:15,750 the newspaper or 744 00:27:16,609 --> 00:27:17,109 newsletters 745 00:27:17,490 --> 00:27:18,470 that I trust. 746 00:27:19,485 --> 00:27:22,384 I do not watch ever watch the news. 747 00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:24,525 I'll listen to podcasts, but most of the 748 00:27:24,525 --> 00:27:26,684 pod it's funny. What if I'm listening to 749 00:27:26,684 --> 00:27:28,384 something, it's probably nonfiction. 750 00:27:28,990 --> 00:27:30,670 I don't listen to a lot of and 751 00:27:30,670 --> 00:27:32,269 I like to refer to other Riz. I 752 00:27:32,269 --> 00:27:33,090 like to read 753 00:27:33,549 --> 00:27:35,630 the the fiction stuff. But most of the 754 00:27:35,630 --> 00:27:38,325 stuff the my inspiration comes from reading, while 755 00:27:38,325 --> 00:27:39,544 I'm reading other books. 756 00:27:39,924 --> 00:27:40,424 Absolutely. 757 00:27:41,044 --> 00:27:42,804 So and and I never did that. I 758 00:27:43,605 --> 00:27:45,605 when I was probably all the way up 759 00:27:45,605 --> 00:27:47,784 to 30, I was not a reader 760 00:27:48,309 --> 00:27:50,630 of a tremendous amount of books, and my 761 00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:52,309 wife got me hooked on it. I think 762 00:27:52,309 --> 00:27:53,990 it was some vacation we went on, and 763 00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:55,829 I got I really liked that mystery. I 764 00:27:55,829 --> 00:27:57,625 think it was a a Grisham book or 765 00:27:57,625 --> 00:27:58,605 something like that. 766 00:27:59,304 --> 00:28:00,984 And I'm like, wow, I really I like 767 00:28:00,984 --> 00:28:03,544 myself better when I'm reading these books. I 768 00:28:03,544 --> 00:28:05,144 like how my mind works a little bit 769 00:28:05,144 --> 00:28:07,240 better. So I always have a book going 770 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:07,740 now, 771 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,279 and always try to spend at least 20 772 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:12,599 minutes a day or more into some kind 773 00:28:12,599 --> 00:28:14,454 of a book. I just think I'm a 774 00:28:14,454 --> 00:28:16,375 better person, but I think that from there, 775 00:28:16,375 --> 00:28:18,295 I don't know why it's it's not a 776 00:28:18,295 --> 00:28:20,375 direct tie either. If I'm reading something and 777 00:28:20,375 --> 00:28:22,410 I get an idea, it's just for whatever 778 00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:24,109 reason, I got into that state 779 00:28:24,809 --> 00:28:27,130 of reading a book and my brain goes 780 00:28:27,130 --> 00:28:28,809 in a different direction, and then I'll go 781 00:28:28,809 --> 00:28:30,994 ahead and I'll write the note down so 782 00:28:30,994 --> 00:28:32,674 that I can come back to it later 783 00:28:32,674 --> 00:28:35,015 or I've got the I've got the note 784 00:28:35,154 --> 00:28:36,595 as I I do a lot of thinking 785 00:28:36,595 --> 00:28:38,195 in the shower as well and we've got 786 00:28:38,275 --> 00:28:40,035 we put a little notepad up in the 787 00:28:40,035 --> 00:28:41,940 shower because I make notes on that as 788 00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:42,440 well. 789 00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:45,059 Who knows? You know, you I wanna make 790 00:28:45,059 --> 00:28:47,220 sure that, I I take it down whenever 791 00:28:47,220 --> 00:28:47,880 I can. 792 00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:49,080 The idea, 793 00:28:49,539 --> 00:28:50,644 comes into my head. 794 00:28:51,125 --> 00:28:52,825 Do you ever find yourself thinking, 795 00:28:53,684 --> 00:28:55,285 wow. You know, I might could get away 796 00:28:55,285 --> 00:28:56,964 with this. I might could get away with 797 00:28:56,964 --> 00:28:58,505 a real crime like this. 798 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:02,799 No. But I do say I think this 799 00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:04,640 is going to happen or I think it 800 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,380 could happen. 801 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:07,059 Like, I, 802 00:29:08,005 --> 00:29:09,305 with the will to die, 803 00:29:10,244 --> 00:29:12,184 I really believe that that 804 00:29:12,565 --> 00:29:15,605 stuff could happen. Like, everything that happened in 805 00:29:15,605 --> 00:29:18,049 that book, I believe that it could happen, 806 00:29:18,190 --> 00:29:18,929 or I've, 807 00:29:20,109 --> 00:29:22,349 heard somebody talk about it, or I've seen 808 00:29:22,349 --> 00:29:22,849 something 809 00:29:23,230 --> 00:29:23,889 around it 810 00:29:24,214 --> 00:29:25,974 happen, I don't wanna ever say, oh my 811 00:29:25,974 --> 00:29:27,815 god, there's no way. And a lot of 812 00:29:27,815 --> 00:29:30,214 the book involved technology. So even in, you 813 00:29:30,214 --> 00:29:32,055 know, so it's been 5 years since I've 814 00:29:32,055 --> 00:29:33,880 really worked on that book, I'd have to, 815 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,539 I'd have to really think differently about how, 816 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,480 I would employ technology. And I and, actually, 817 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,660 I'm really in the next book, 818 00:29:42,684 --> 00:29:44,684 it's gonna be interesting, especially with all the 819 00:29:44,684 --> 00:29:46,444 AI stuff that come in because I'm if 820 00:29:46,444 --> 00:29:48,605 I'm talking about marketing and what's going on 821 00:29:48,605 --> 00:29:50,045 with AI, I've you've gotta 822 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:52,539 I've gotta really be careful. I don't wanna 823 00:29:52,539 --> 00:29:55,659 date the book because, oh, technology only happened 824 00:29:55,659 --> 00:29:56,159 during 825 00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:58,380 this this point in time. There's a book 826 00:29:58,380 --> 00:29:59,899 that I read recently. I don't know if 827 00:29:59,899 --> 00:30:00,974 it was a a 828 00:30:02,075 --> 00:30:03,835 oh, I can't remember which one it was. 829 00:30:04,075 --> 00:30:05,115 I have to get back to you on 830 00:30:05,115 --> 00:30:06,974 it. But there it took place in 831 00:30:07,275 --> 00:30:07,775 1990 832 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:09,579 4, 1995 833 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:13,079 before, like, heavy usage of cell phones or 834 00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:14,679 social media. And I was like, wow. That's 835 00:30:14,679 --> 00:30:17,355 a great place. That's just a perfect place. 836 00:30:17,515 --> 00:30:19,914 Because you you didn't have like, you didn't 837 00:30:19,914 --> 00:30:21,375 know where people were. 838 00:30:21,755 --> 00:30:24,075 You didn't have that tracking technology and other 839 00:30:24,075 --> 00:30:25,920 things, so it's a fun place. I would 840 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,859 I would be interested in going back to 841 00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:29,680 a time. That's why when we were in 842 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,359 the book, when I would write in the 843 00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:32,980 seventies or in the eighties, 844 00:30:33,434 --> 00:30:35,434 It's enjoyable. There's no cell phones going on. 845 00:30:35,434 --> 00:30:37,835 There's no social media. There's no technology. It's 846 00:30:37,835 --> 00:30:39,355 like, we're going out. People don't know where 847 00:30:39,355 --> 00:30:40,079 we're at. 848 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,000 There's a lot of freedom when you can 849 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,460 write without those constraints. 850 00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:45,619 Well, there was one thing in 851 00:30:46,159 --> 00:30:47,940 the will to die that struck a responsive 852 00:30:47,964 --> 00:30:49,325 chord with him. I'm not going to give 853 00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:51,025 the story away. But it is the 854 00:30:51,644 --> 00:30:53,505 the buying of life insurance policies. 855 00:30:55,140 --> 00:30:56,839 That's happened to real life, 856 00:30:57,460 --> 00:30:58,200 those abuses. 857 00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:01,059 So that that actually comes from 858 00:31:02,154 --> 00:31:03,855 I sat we sat down 859 00:31:04,474 --> 00:31:04,954 with, 860 00:31:05,355 --> 00:31:06,894 with our insurance agent 861 00:31:07,275 --> 00:31:09,934 years ago and they brought up this 862 00:31:10,315 --> 00:31:10,815 reverse 863 00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:15,109 life insurance thing, you know, again, against your 864 00:31:15,109 --> 00:31:15,429 real 865 00:31:16,150 --> 00:31:18,630 reverse insurance against real estate property and the 866 00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:20,394 whole thing, which a lot of people do, 867 00:31:20,394 --> 00:31:21,835 unfortunately. And I didn't know about it at 868 00:31:21,835 --> 00:31:23,595 the time, and I started researching it. Like, 869 00:31:23,595 --> 00:31:25,035 oh my god. This is a thing. And, 870 00:31:25,035 --> 00:31:26,554 oh my god. There's people that are really 871 00:31:26,554 --> 00:31:28,634 getting taken advantage of. I'm like, oh, I 872 00:31:28,634 --> 00:31:29,339 could see this 873 00:31:29,819 --> 00:31:32,380 this happening and, of course, inserted that in. 874 00:31:32,380 --> 00:31:34,000 So again, to your point, 875 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:36,380 a lot of these things could happen, are 876 00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:36,880 happening. 877 00:31:37,515 --> 00:31:38,634 I just don't want to be the one 878 00:31:38,634 --> 00:31:40,795 doing it. Yeah. I've got a recent episode 879 00:31:40,795 --> 00:31:41,455 up about 880 00:31:41,995 --> 00:31:43,775 a series of murders in Malibu. 881 00:31:44,634 --> 00:31:45,855 And the perpetrator 882 00:31:46,579 --> 00:31:47,960 it was all about insurance. 883 00:31:48,419 --> 00:31:50,679 And he had even his family 884 00:31:51,059 --> 00:31:54,585 had a long, long history of insurance fraud. 885 00:31:54,585 --> 00:31:56,744 He had learned from the best, except he 886 00:31:56,744 --> 00:31:59,244 elevated his to life insurance 887 00:32:00,105 --> 00:32:00,605 murders. 888 00:32:01,304 --> 00:32:03,304 And he when it really gets him caught, 889 00:32:03,304 --> 00:32:04,660 he's got an 890 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,680 $800,000 life insurance policy that he just has 891 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,500 paid off 892 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:09,539 a few 893 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,140 weeks before 894 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:12,180 his 895 00:32:13,234 --> 00:32:15,575 wife and stepson, pretty new wife, 896 00:32:15,954 --> 00:32:18,134 mysteriously drowned while they're out with him. 897 00:32:18,515 --> 00:32:19,015 Jeez. 898 00:32:19,315 --> 00:32:19,815 Yeah. 899 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,220 That's terrible. 900 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,619 Yeah. Absolutely. It's crazy. 901 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,720 Well, I appreciate you talking, with us. And, 902 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,559 before we close out here, I want you 903 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:31,174 to give a a pitch for your orange 904 00:32:31,174 --> 00:32:32,714 foundation. Tell my listeners 905 00:32:33,015 --> 00:32:34,534 what you do and and how they can 906 00:32:34,534 --> 00:32:36,375 help out. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. 907 00:32:36,694 --> 00:32:39,319 The Orange Effect Foundation, the orange effect dot 908 00:32:39,399 --> 00:32:39,899 org, 909 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:40,859 effECT. 910 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,200 We've been working on this, little cause, my 911 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,099 wife and I, 912 00:32:45,639 --> 00:32:46,139 since 913 00:32:46,679 --> 00:32:47,179 2007. 914 00:32:48,034 --> 00:32:50,534 Our son at the time we did this 915 00:32:50,755 --> 00:32:53,414 was 6 years old, now is almost 23, 916 00:32:54,434 --> 00:32:57,720 but was diagnosed on the autism spectrum, 917 00:32:58,420 --> 00:32:59,960 when we got into that process, 918 00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:03,380 realized that how difficult it was. We had 919 00:33:03,380 --> 00:33:05,320 the means, which was great. We had intensive 920 00:33:05,525 --> 00:33:06,025 speech 921 00:33:06,404 --> 00:33:07,464 and play therapy 922 00:33:08,085 --> 00:33:10,265 and came through that whole process, 923 00:33:10,644 --> 00:33:12,565 went went through a tutor in a school 924 00:33:12,565 --> 00:33:13,945 until 8 years old, 925 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,799 then didn't need 1, started saying more and 926 00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:17,539 more words, 927 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,680 and really is is doing wonderfully well because 928 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,484 of that speech and play therapy. And then 929 00:33:23,484 --> 00:33:25,005 that during that process, we found out a 930 00:33:25,005 --> 00:33:27,164 lot of families couldn't afford that. A lot 931 00:33:27,164 --> 00:33:27,744 of families 932 00:33:28,285 --> 00:33:29,904 who their kids are diagnosed, 933 00:33:30,309 --> 00:33:32,549 they really need this speech therapy, and they 934 00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:35,109 can't get it because insurance doesn't cover it, 935 00:33:35,109 --> 00:33:36,549 and they need to put food on the 936 00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:37,929 table. And that's tragic 937 00:33:38,515 --> 00:33:40,194 if you can't get that therapy that you 938 00:33:40,194 --> 00:33:43,075 need. So we created Orange Effect Foundation to 939 00:33:43,075 --> 00:33:44,994 be a sort of a last resort for 940 00:33:44,994 --> 00:33:46,960 people who who can't, people, 941 00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:49,180 families, kids who can't get this type of 942 00:33:49,180 --> 00:33:50,240 therapy or technology. 943 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:52,380 So we've been doing this officially as a 944 00:33:52,380 --> 00:33:54,454 5 zero one c three since 2000 14, 945 00:33:54,454 --> 00:33:56,535 and we have grants out to over 400 946 00:33:56,535 --> 00:33:57,994 kids in 39 states. 947 00:33:58,535 --> 00:34:00,375 And we just raise as much money as 948 00:34:00,375 --> 00:34:02,054 we can to make sure that these kids 949 00:34:02,054 --> 00:34:04,119 get the speech therapy they need to be, 950 00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:06,460 whatever kinda normal they wanna be 951 00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,159 just so they can communicate more effectively. And 952 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,079 it's, it's a passion we all have, and, 953 00:34:11,775 --> 00:34:13,775 if anybody's interested, just look us up at 954 00:34:13,775 --> 00:34:16,494 the orange effect dot org, and and we 955 00:34:16,494 --> 00:34:18,574 fundraise all year long and have been for 956 00:34:18,574 --> 00:34:19,954 the last 18 years. 957 00:34:20,819 --> 00:34:23,480 I'll add my insights from my reporter's notebook. 958 00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:27,139 For years in the prison systems, I've seen 959 00:34:27,139 --> 00:34:29,424 so many cases of inmates that have learning 960 00:34:29,424 --> 00:34:29,924 differences, 961 00:34:30,704 --> 00:34:32,644 speech difficulties, and all of that. 962 00:34:33,025 --> 00:34:35,444 It contributed to the reason they're in prison. 963 00:34:35,984 --> 00:34:37,929 And if we can get these people help 964 00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:38,909 as children, 965 00:34:39,849 --> 00:34:42,089 you know, we're gonna it'll be one less 966 00:34:42,089 --> 00:34:44,170 prison bed that taxpayers have to take care 967 00:34:44,170 --> 00:34:44,909 of. So, 968 00:34:45,505 --> 00:34:47,744 Joe, thank you again for joining us. Thank 969 00:34:47,744 --> 00:34:49,445 you, Robert. I really appreciate it.