- Hello, this is Robert Riggs.
Please tell your friends who love True Crime
that they can bypass secondhand tales
and get their true crime fix here
with authentic stories straight from the source.
Tell them that True Crime Reporter is one
of the few podcasts where you can hear raw,
unfiltered accounts from law enforcement victims,
and even convicted criminals, plus insights
for your personal protection.
Now, here's our episode
in the realm of True Crime.
Every crime scene tells
a story.
Every story has its truths.
These are the stories from behind badges
and prison bars, that separate fact from fiction.
- Those guys, when I say they were bad boys, they were,
they were touch all they,
you would not wanna meet them in a dark alley.
- In this episode, I'm going to take you
behind the high walls
and razor wire into the dark corners
of the largest prison system in the world.
David Stacks, a former Texas prison warden with 30 years
of frontline experience,
provides an unfiltered look at life behind bars.
Today, Stax is the director of the Texas Prison Museum.
He's here with stories from
inside the toughest Texas prisons
that held the meanest of the mean.
- I think one of the, uh, interesting stories
I I remember was an inmate
that when I worked at Diagnostic, there was an inmate.
He had been a funeral home director.
I don't recall his name off the top of my head,
but he had like three funeral homes, if I recall,
up in the East Texas area, that Smith County, uh,
Greg County area up in there.
And to hear him tell his story, he got greedy
and he had his pilot's license.
And he would fly to Mexico and he'd fly in marijuana
and kind of enriched his pocketbook, you might say.
And, and he and his wife started having problems
and, uh, she found it on her way to, um,
basically turn him into the law.
Get, get, get away from him.
It's my understanding that they arrested him
and he made bond.
And while he was out, he ended up disposing of his,
his wife, to hear him talk about it.
He, uh, knew exactly what he needed to do to get rid of her.
He put her in a tub after killing her, used some chemicals
that he knew that would dissolve the body
and pull the plug and down the drain.
She went and I said, well, how in the world
did you ever get caught?
And he says, well, he says, I got drunk one night in a bar
and started talking because
that was the whole story in the town was that, uh, you know,
he killed his wife because she was
gonna testify against him.
And, uh, but I got drunk one night
and I said something to a guy sitting at the bar next to me.
And lo
and behold, I got busted for murder as well
as for a dump offense.
And they used that testimony and that witness against me.
And he ended up doing quite a bit of time at diagnostic.
He was a very smart man.
He was, uh, actually
what we would call a bookkeeper back then.
He kept books on, uh, various things related
to administrative work, uh, in, uh, in the prison.
Well, that would be one interesting guy that I,
I had an opportunity to be with.
- Stax recalls a clever prison escape at the Ramsey unit,
a prison farm that consists
of five former plantations from the late 18 hundreds
located south of Houston.
A repeat offender could not face a new 75 year sentence,
- But he just was not mentally prepared to do that.
But because of his previous institutional record,
he was given a job working in the shower area, which is
what was unique about this, is the bus that used
to deliver inmates to
that particular unit would drive right up to the back slab
next to the shower.
And he ended up getting a two by six.
And I think the two by six was somewhere
around 18 feet long.
And he was able to just put it in the, on the back slab,
left it there for days and days and days,
and it kind came a routine side.
No one questioned it. And one day he put it underneath the,
the bus chassis,
and he rode that two by six out of the penitentiary.
The officers at the back gate that was supposed to, uh,
shake the vehicle down, look underneath the chassis
with mirrors and all, obviously they didn't do it
or they didn't do a very good job of it.
He went out of that back gate, that chain bus,
it would go back the route it initially came.
He went to the next unit, went in
and outta that back gate undetected, went
through the next unit in
and out without being detected until he got
to his final destination where the unit where the,
the bus would be staged for the next day's work.
And after it got night, he came out from
underneath the bus and ran off.
To me, that was a pretty clever, but it was all
because people didn't do their job.
- Stax worked on the maximum security retrieve unit.
It opened on the grounds of the farmer retrieve plantation
of 1839 retrieve held serial killer
Kenneth Allen McDuff, the subject of the beginning
of this podcast and my five part streaming television
documentary titled Free To Kill.
How Tough were the inmates there?
McDuff was considered meek among the killers
- At retrieve.
There were a lot of inmates there that had been, uh,
their sentences had been commuted from death row
to life in prison.
Not life without parole, but just a life sentence.
Several of those guys, in fact,
I just had one stop by the museum.
He's, he has since been paroled
and he is living a good life.
Uh, he stopped by here and visited with me the other day,
and he was a, he was, um, a, a model inmate,
even though he was, had been on death row.
He is doing a line of sentence.
And I guess the best way I can say it, uh, Robert, is
you don't ever trust these guys a hundred percent.
You, you, you try
and use their, their history of
how they behave in the institution.
And you try and use that to the best of your advantage
for managing that prison.
And, and this guy in particular was a smart guy.
He was a good worker. Uh, he was responsible
as a boiler room operator.
You know, boiler room is a very important job.
You can blow the whole prison off the face of the ground,
you know, but he was very responsible, did a good job.
And what he actually did to get put on death row, it,
it lose me right now off top of my head.
But he got out and he, he's done where very well.
That's not the case on some other guys
that were down there that were off death row.
Some of those guys I've mentioned evil
before, uh, there was a bunch of guys
that were very evil down there.
Very seldom did fist fights happen on the tree.
Most, most times it was a
dabbing in a stabbing and a killing.
I know there was at least, uh, one, one stabbing
that I remember that ended up in a death down there.
Um, it was a, uh, a gang hit.
It was a, um, pistoleros hit AEs familia guy
and, um, stabbed me multiple times and he died.
So yeah, it was a pretty rough place back then.
But that was just one of many units that TDC had a lot
of violence on.
Unfortunately, I have to kind of tell on myself.
Uh, when I was at retrieve, it was a maximum security unit.
Unfortunately, we had several inmates run
off while I was there.
Uh, we actually had three inmates in segregation
that were Aaron Brotherhood members who
manipulated to, um, secure structures
and got outside the fence.
One of the inmates, his grandmother lived not too far from
the unit down in the Lake Jackson area.
And there the crow flies from retrieve.
Lake Jackson is probably five miles.
He and his two compadres went down
and stole his grandmother's vehicle,
and off they went up 59.
Don't tell 'em where they were going to go,
but they ran outta gas, didn't have any money,
ran outta gas on the side of the road.
And I hadn't been at the prison very long, uh,
as the major, the new major there.
And, um, the warden called me up front.
Actually, before that I was getting my shoe shined.
The inmate that was shining my shoe was a guy named Reyes.
Well, he had been put in segregation earlier
because he tried to cut one of our warden's throat.
Actually he did. He cut Bob cousin's throat, tried to escape
to try and give you some idea of the clientele at retrieve.
Although he cut a warden's throat in a, an attempted escape.
He ended up, ended up being a boot black.
In other words, he worked in the officer's
barbershop shining shoes.
So I, I remember that guy.
Only reason I remember that,
because once he cut Bob Cousin's throat, he didn't kill him.
He came to the diagnostic when I was a correctional officer,
and I remember because he had a full tattooed tiger on his
back, and the tail came across his shoulder
and kind of looped around his belly.
That's the only time I'd been around a guy
because of, uh, the notoriety of
what he did to Warden Cousins.
When I got down to retrieve,
I'm in there getting my shoe shine
and I'm thinking, I, I know you res where I know you from.
She said, well, you probably know me from the
warden cousin incident.
Yeah, that's where I know you from.
Well, the siren goes off and I go up the warden.
I go up there and res says, you need
to kind of go up front major.
I mean, I'm, I'm green.
I'm, I'm wet behind the ears race to
that, that particular unit.
I go up front Warden, warden asked me, he says, uh,
have we had an escape?
I said, that I know of. I said, I've checked all the counts.
You know, I, that's one thing I do.
I check all the counts, make sure all the counts were,
you know, paper counts were, you know,
make sure everything tallied up.
Well, sure enough, he, he said, well,
I just got a call from an officer at Crosby close to Crosby.
Says he's got three guys
that said they just escaped from the retrieve unit.
Well, sure enough, those were our three guys
that escaped from retrieve unit, and they were AB members.
And that was probably the most embarrassing escape
that I had ever been associated with
because that was on my watch.
One of my night shift, uh, supervisors
and some of his staff had counted
dummy bodies all night long.
They had made good dummy heads stuffed the bed with pillows
and various sheets and things that had gathered,
and they counted a non-breathing body for like five counts.
So that was embarrassing, to say the least.
But the retrieve unit was full of guys like, uh, that guy
that cut dozens throat and those guys that escaped.
It was a, it was so back to McDuff, if I might say McDuff,
since he kind of notoriety down there, he was a nobody.
- Well, I take it that in your career you meant a
lot worse than McDuff.
- I have particularly those individuals
that were into gangs.
Yeah. You know, I, I had on one occasion, uh,
when I was at Ramsey, uh, the guy that was head of the, uh,
Texas ate, uh, he came over for a medical appointment.
I did not know him that well at that time, but my major did.
I met him at the back gate, escorted me in
because he was a high profile gang member.
And, uh, he told the major, he says, uh,
you still got my brother over here?
He said, yeah. He says, well, you lock him up while I'm, uh,
here for the medical appointment,
because I've been given the hit to kill him,
and I can't do that to my mama.
So we locked the guy up temporarily until we got
that gang member off the unit their way he could go back
to his gang members and say, I was going kill him,
but I couldn't get to him.
And, you know, he,
there's no doubt in my mind he'd have done it.
That's kind of the way some
of this gang stuff works, you know?
And, uh, yeah, there's, there's some guys out there that,
uh, that are clever.
There's, there's a lot of these guys
that are extremely clever or very bright.
Some of the most high profile escapes we've ever had
are guys who've got a pretty high intellect.
And they, they're, they're very, uh, very astute
to their environment and can make it to the best
of their advantage and what they wanna do.
And that is get out of custody.
- Stack served as the warden
of the East Ham unit for five years.
Call the ham by inmates.
Its most notorious historical resident was Clyde Barrow
of Bonnie and Clyde fame.
They even returned to break out a gang member in a deadly
shootout, prompting the head of the prison system
to hire former Texas Ranger Frank Hamer, to haunt them down
and kill them in a hail of gunfire.
- The eastham unit, way back in the day, it was where,
that was one of the prisons where the hardened
ible type inmates, that's where they were sent.
And Clyde ended up there, even though he was a young man,
and he went there
because of all the crimes he had done
prior to coming to prison.
It wasn't because he was an experienced convict.
And there's no doubt in my mind that he probably was abused.
There's no doubt in my mind that he probably was abused
by some older men there convicts,
because he was 18, 19 years old,
I think, when he went to East End.
And, uh, actually, uh, there was a person that was,
there was an inmate building tender that got killed,
uh, if I remember correctly.
And Clyde supposedly killed him,
but another inmate took the rap for him
because Clyde was gonna be coming up for parole.
And this particular inmate was one that, uh, uh,
overexercise his authority.
And, um, apparently I had enough of it
and beat him with a bar.
And, uh, another inmate took, took, uh, and stabbed him.
And, uh, but yeah, Eastham, when you go to Eastham,
you're gonna be there a long time.
When I left in oh six, there was an inmate there
who had done, I don't know, 27 years.
I went out there two years ago. He's still there.
He's probably done 42 years for sexual assault
of various people.
He's one that, although I think he's changed his life,
he's not one that I think we need to release.
I mean, I wish him, well, I hope he goes to heaven,
but we don't need to release him back to the population.
I'm talking about our population where you and I reside.
There's some people you just don't let out.
And I think that would be too much of a risk to let
that person out, even though he's got some age on
him. I wouldn't let him out
- When I return.
I will talk to Stax about the challenges of serving
as a corrections officer in the Texas prison system today.
A few days before this interview, 27 year old Jovan Motley
died while trying to restrain an inmate at the Eastham unit,
now named the Wainwright unit.
Motley was part of a five member team
that physically removes inmates who refused
to come out of their cells.
He had been an officer for one year
at the time of this interview.
The cause of his death had not been determined.
- You know, that is a very difficult job.
I, you know, our law enforcement community out there,
they got a very dangerous job.
You know, when I worked in the prison, I could pretty well
feel comfortable walking up
and down my hallway, whether I was an officer,
whether I was a lieutenant, a captain, major warden,
whatever, that a guy walking down the hallway
ain't gonna pull a gun out and shoot me.
I, I didn't have to worry about that.
I never really worried about that at all.
Now, he might have a knife on him, you know,
but our law enforcement community out there,
when they walk up on that car, they have no idea
what they're walking up with.
So my hat's off to those men
and women are out there doing that.
But in the correctional setting, it's a very dangerous job,
uh, particularly when you become understaffed.
And right now, unfortunately,
our prison system is having some staffing issues.
- Stack says he found that 5%
of the prison population was just pure evil
and caused most of the trouble.
- 95% of them, the, the inmates that I did time
with were model inmates.
They, uh, they worked very well in a structured environment.
They caused very little problems.
They, they followed instructions. They went to work.
They were very little problems,
but that other 5% caused you that 95% of your problems.
And I think probably, uh,
there's probably some school teachers out there that can
probably relate to that and that most of their kids
probably, or good kids,
but you may have just a few in there
that cause a lot of disruption.
That causes a very poor environment for trying to,
to learn and teach people.
But I think most of that was strictly, a lot
of it was bravado.
A lot of it was brought on by
people in higher echelons within their organizations
that were even more evil, making more evil occur.
I think that would be a good way of
- Describe it.
Well, I, I've talked
and interviewed during my career a number of those 95%
of the population inmate.
And they always used to say, yeah, they would refer
to an inmate, he knows how to do his time.
Is it the structure
and enforce discipline here that suddenly they're able to,
you know, function and get things done
that they don't have on the outside?
- I think one of the key ingredients, uh,
that causes these guys to, uh, come to their senses first
is they're not on any chemicals anymore.
You know, when they're out in the world, a lot
of 'em have a lot of chemical problems,
whether it be alcohol,
whether it be drugs, whatever it may be.
And you know, when I,
I think most anybody in law enforcement
or any treatment would tell you that, uh,
when some people get on chemicals, uh,
they're not the same people they are
when they're not, obviously.
So when these guys come to us from the county jails,
they're pretty well cleaned up.
They have, uh, gotten all of that stuff out of them,
and they are mentally prepared, particularly those
that have recidivated
that have been in the prison more than one occasion.
They know what they're going to have to do to
maximize their, their quality of life in the prison.
- What is it, do you think that brings them back?
- Well, I think, uh, that's a,
that's a pretty good question.
I think a lot of it is that they, they, we got a lot of men
that have been in prison are very talented men and women.
They got some real good skill sets,
and when they get outta prison, they're able
to make some really good money,
have some really good jobs, and make good money.
But then they start dabbling in those chemicals
and they start having some flawed thinking and,
and have some blurred vision, you might say.
And it causes 'em to not think the way
that they probably should.
And I think I blame it primarily on chemicals,
whether it be the alcohol, whether it be the, the, the drug,
illicit drug, whatever.
I, that's what I believe.
Uh, now, unfortunately, there are some people
that are just downright evil.
I mean, that's just fact live.
- Now, retired Stax is the director
of the Texas Prison Museum.
The nonprofit museum is located in Huntsville,
Texas on Interstate 45 between Dallas and Houston.
It features many unusual artifacts about the history
of the prison system, including an electric chair named Old
Sparky that was used from 1924 to 1964
for executions.
- The Texas Prison Museum.
Our mission is to educate the people of, of Texas
and the world about the, uh,
the prison system from its beginning in 1848
to current events as much as we can.
There's a lot of history here.
Uh, there's a lot of history here
that we never need to repeat.
Uh, we, we speak about that. Uh, we tell it like it is.
You know, back in the day when we had a convict leasing
system, we never, ever want to go back and,
and reinstitute something like that.
That was one of the most mismanaged, most cruel programs
that the state of Texas had because
although the people that were leasing the inmates
had a responsibility to care for the inmate's wellbeing,
nutritional needs, clothing needs, medical needs
for whatever reason, a lot
of 'em did not do that because of that.
There were a lot of inmate deaths.
It was, it was cheaper to get another one than
to take care of those needs.
So that's one thing we talk about is the good
and the bad of the system.
The good things that are going on in the system are,
as I said, some of the programmatic
activities they got over there.
Now, uh, the faith-based programs are good,
but here at the museum in particular,
there's just a lot of history.
We have the original electric chair here,
361 men died in that chair.
Uh, no women ever died.
There's a lot of good artwork in here.
There's a lot of just creativity items
that inmates have made, whether they were trying
to allude the system through an escape attempt,
whether it was, uh, contraband such, uh,
uh, making a homemade steel out of a milk can, uh,
making a food processor out of a cardboard.
I mean, there, tattoo, gun, just all kinds of things here
that we feel very proud of.
And we would love to have anybody, if you're listening
immunity, come and visit with us. We'd love to have them.
- I find it interesting that
ex-offenders stop into the Texas Prison Museum here.
What, what do you think draws them back to here?
- Well, I'm pleased to say that most
of them are actually bringing their children in here.
Uh, the ones that I've seen come in here, they bring their,
their children in here
and they kinda show, you know, the things that I did, your,
what your dad did, these are the things that I had to go
through, uh, as a result of my decisions that I made.
And I think it's kind of an education opportunity for them
just to share with their family, their particular children
that, you know, I made some terrible mistakes and
because of that, this is where I ended up
and these are the things I had to endure.
And you don't want to have to do this.
But we see a lot of those come through here,
and I think that's a good thing.
Uh, we have some, like I mentioned not too long ago,
I had a guy come in here that was an extra death row inmate
that came by just to stop by and say hi,
and say, thank you for what you did for me warden.
And, uh, that's a good feeling, you know?
But then you got these other guys that are still somewhat
petering on the gang banging side.
Mm-Hmm, that wanna bring in their little old
chip or their girlfriend and,
and, uh, say, you know, yeah, this wasn't nothing.
I could do this standing on my head, you know, try
and be that bravado stuff I talked about.
But most of them are pretty humbled when they come in here,
and we've never had a problem with any of 'em.
They've always been well-behaved, and we welcome them here.
- In my next episode, David Stacks will weigh in with advice
for your personal safety based on his 30 years of dealing
with some of the meanest criminals in Texas,
please tell your friends who love true crime
that they can bypass secondhand tales
and get their true crime fixed here
with authentic stories straight from the source.
Tell them that True Crime Reporter is one
of the few podcasts where you can hear raw,
unfiltered accounts from law enforcement victims,
and even convicted criminals, plus insights
for your personal protection.
Thanks for listening, and until we meet again, be prepared.
Don't get scared. This is Robert Riggs reporting.