1 00:00:00,585 --> 00:00:02,135 - Hello, this is Robert Riggs. 2 00:00:02,515 --> 00:00:04,895 Please tell your friends who love True Crime 3 00:00:05,005 --> 00:00:07,415 that they can bypass secondhand tales 4 00:00:07,915 --> 00:00:09,775 and get their true crime fix here 5 00:00:09,925 --> 00:00:12,855 with authentic stories straight from the source. 6 00:00:13,845 --> 00:00:15,535 Tell them that True Crime Reporter is one 7 00:00:15,535 --> 00:00:17,815 of the few podcasts where you can hear raw, 8 00:00:18,425 --> 00:00:21,015 unfiltered accounts from law enforcement victims, 9 00:00:21,715 --> 00:00:25,295 and even convicted criminals, plus insights 10 00:00:25,395 --> 00:00:26,895 for your personal protection. 11 00:00:27,755 --> 00:00:29,415 Now, here's our episode 12 00:00:34,925 --> 00:00:36,305 in the realm of True Crime. 13 00:00:37,195 --> 00:00:38,905 Every crime scene tells 14 00:00:38,985 --> 00:00:43,465 a story. 15 00:00:43,465 --> 00:00:45,585 Every story has its truths. 16 00:00:48,555 --> 00:00:51,025 These are the stories from behind badges 17 00:00:51,025 --> 00:00:54,785 and prison bars, that separate fact from fiction. 18 00:01:14,435 --> 00:01:16,465 - Those guys, when I say they were bad boys, they were, 19 00:01:16,495 --> 00:01:17,665 they were touch all they, 20 00:01:17,685 --> 00:01:19,705 you would not wanna meet them in a dark alley. 21 00:01:21,885 --> 00:01:24,105 - In this episode, I'm going to take you 22 00:01:24,205 --> 00:01:25,505 behind the high walls 23 00:01:25,565 --> 00:01:28,345 and razor wire into the dark corners 24 00:01:28,345 --> 00:01:30,745 of the largest prison system in the world. 25 00:01:31,595 --> 00:01:35,425 David Stacks, a former Texas prison warden with 30 years 26 00:01:35,605 --> 00:01:36,825 of frontline experience, 27 00:01:37,505 --> 00:01:40,785 provides an unfiltered look at life behind bars. 28 00:01:41,755 --> 00:01:45,265 Today, Stax is the director of the Texas Prison Museum. 29 00:01:46,055 --> 00:01:47,345 He's here with stories from 30 00:01:47,345 --> 00:01:49,345 inside the toughest Texas prisons 31 00:01:49,775 --> 00:01:52,105 that held the meanest of the mean. 32 00:01:55,785 --> 00:01:58,705 - I think one of the, uh, interesting stories 33 00:01:59,265 --> 00:02:00,865 I I remember was an inmate 34 00:02:00,865 --> 00:02:03,465 that when I worked at Diagnostic, there was an inmate. 35 00:02:03,565 --> 00:02:05,905 He had been a funeral home director. 36 00:02:06,105 --> 00:02:08,145 I don't recall his name off the top of my head, 37 00:02:08,285 --> 00:02:11,705 but he had like three funeral homes, if I recall, 38 00:02:11,845 --> 00:02:15,545 up in the East Texas area, that Smith County, uh, 39 00:02:15,775 --> 00:02:17,385 Greg County area up in there. 40 00:02:18,005 --> 00:02:21,305 And to hear him tell his story, he got greedy 41 00:02:21,445 --> 00:02:22,785 and he had his pilot's license. 42 00:02:22,925 --> 00:02:25,785 And he would fly to Mexico and he'd fly in marijuana 43 00:02:25,845 --> 00:02:29,065 and kind of enriched his pocketbook, you might say. 44 00:02:29,165 --> 00:02:32,065 And, and he and his wife started having problems 45 00:02:32,405 --> 00:02:36,305 and, uh, she found it on her way to, um, 46 00:02:37,985 --> 00:02:39,515 basically turn him into the law. 47 00:02:39,695 --> 00:02:41,115 Get, get, get away from him. 48 00:02:41,585 --> 00:02:43,955 It's my understanding that they arrested him 49 00:02:44,895 --> 00:02:46,315 and he made bond. 50 00:02:46,335 --> 00:02:49,675 And while he was out, he ended up disposing of his, 51 00:02:49,975 --> 00:02:52,275 his wife, to hear him talk about it. 52 00:02:52,655 --> 00:02:56,675 He, uh, knew exactly what he needed to do to get rid of her. 53 00:02:56,675 --> 00:03:01,055 He put her in a tub after killing her, used some chemicals 54 00:03:01,055 --> 00:03:03,095 that he knew that would dissolve the body 55 00:03:03,915 --> 00:03:05,895 and pull the plug and down the drain. 56 00:03:05,915 --> 00:03:09,215 She went and I said, well, how in the world 57 00:03:10,115 --> 00:03:11,375 did you ever get caught? 58 00:03:11,375 --> 00:03:15,735 And he says, well, he says, I got drunk one night in a bar 59 00:03:16,155 --> 00:03:18,445 and started talking because 60 00:03:18,445 --> 00:03:21,365 that was the whole story in the town was that, uh, you know, 61 00:03:21,365 --> 00:03:22,685 he killed his wife because she was 62 00:03:22,685 --> 00:03:23,765 gonna testify against him. 63 00:03:24,465 --> 00:03:27,005 And, uh, but I got drunk one night 64 00:03:27,105 --> 00:03:29,805 and I said something to a guy sitting at the bar next to me. 65 00:03:30,505 --> 00:03:31,565 And lo 66 00:03:31,565 --> 00:03:34,705 and behold, I got busted for murder as well 67 00:03:34,705 --> 00:03:35,905 as for a dump offense. 68 00:03:37,025 --> 00:03:39,645 And they used that testimony and that witness against me. 69 00:03:40,535 --> 00:03:42,915 And he ended up doing quite a bit of time at diagnostic. 70 00:03:42,915 --> 00:03:43,915 He was a very smart man. 71 00:03:44,015 --> 00:03:45,075 He was, uh, actually 72 00:03:45,075 --> 00:03:46,875 what we would call a bookkeeper back then. 73 00:03:46,975 --> 00:03:50,395 He kept books on, uh, various things related 74 00:03:50,455 --> 00:03:53,875 to administrative work, uh, in, uh, in the prison. 75 00:03:54,465 --> 00:03:57,595 Well, that would be one interesting guy that I, 76 00:03:57,795 --> 00:03:59,475 I had an opportunity to be with. 77 00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:04,025 - Stax recalls a clever prison escape at the Ramsey unit, 78 00:04:04,625 --> 00:04:06,225 a prison farm that consists 79 00:04:06,225 --> 00:04:09,545 of five former plantations from the late 18 hundreds 80 00:04:09,775 --> 00:04:10,945 located south of Houston. 81 00:04:12,055 --> 00:04:16,455 A repeat offender could not face a new 75 year sentence, 82 00:04:17,645 --> 00:04:20,185 - But he just was not mentally prepared to do that. 83 00:04:20,965 --> 00:04:23,945 But because of his previous institutional record, 84 00:04:24,405 --> 00:04:28,585 he was given a job working in the shower area, which is 85 00:04:28,975 --> 00:04:32,025 what was unique about this, is the bus that used 86 00:04:32,025 --> 00:04:33,425 to deliver inmates to 87 00:04:33,425 --> 00:04:37,385 that particular unit would drive right up to the back slab 88 00:04:37,895 --> 00:04:38,905 next to the shower. 89 00:04:40,385 --> 00:04:42,885 And he ended up getting a two by six. 90 00:04:44,145 --> 00:04:45,885 And I think the two by six was somewhere 91 00:04:45,885 --> 00:04:47,005 around 18 feet long. 92 00:04:47,005 --> 00:04:49,925 And he was able to just put it in the, on the back slab, 93 00:04:49,955 --> 00:04:52,365 left it there for days and days and days, 94 00:04:52,505 --> 00:04:54,765 and it kind came a routine side. 95 00:04:54,865 --> 00:04:58,205 No one questioned it. And one day he put it underneath the, 96 00:04:58,785 --> 00:05:01,405 the bus chassis, 97 00:05:02,165 --> 00:05:06,105 and he rode that two by six out of the penitentiary. 98 00:05:07,335 --> 00:05:09,955 The officers at the back gate that was supposed to, uh, 99 00:05:10,935 --> 00:05:13,605 shake the vehicle down, look underneath the chassis 100 00:05:13,605 --> 00:05:16,205 with mirrors and all, obviously they didn't do it 101 00:05:16,205 --> 00:05:17,765 or they didn't do a very good job of it. 102 00:05:18,265 --> 00:05:21,295 He went out of that back gate, that chain bus, 103 00:05:22,345 --> 00:05:24,965 it would go back the route it initially came. 104 00:05:26,405 --> 00:05:28,425 He went to the next unit, went in 105 00:05:28,425 --> 00:05:31,795 and outta that back gate undetected, went 106 00:05:31,795 --> 00:05:33,315 through the next unit in 107 00:05:33,315 --> 00:05:36,795 and out without being detected until he got 108 00:05:36,795 --> 00:05:39,515 to his final destination where the unit where the, 109 00:05:39,615 --> 00:05:41,915 the bus would be staged for the next day's work. 110 00:05:42,335 --> 00:05:44,355 And after it got night, he came out from 111 00:05:44,355 --> 00:05:45,595 underneath the bus and ran off. 112 00:05:46,055 --> 00:05:48,595 To me, that was a pretty clever, but it was all 113 00:05:48,595 --> 00:05:50,035 because people didn't do their job. 114 00:05:51,265 --> 00:05:54,435 - Stax worked on the maximum security retrieve unit. 115 00:05:54,975 --> 00:05:58,045 It opened on the grounds of the farmer retrieve plantation 116 00:05:58,105 --> 00:06:02,305 of 1839 retrieve held serial killer 117 00:06:02,415 --> 00:06:05,585 Kenneth Allen McDuff, the subject of the beginning 118 00:06:05,605 --> 00:06:09,105 of this podcast and my five part streaming television 119 00:06:09,385 --> 00:06:11,025 documentary titled Free To Kill. 120 00:06:12,005 --> 00:06:13,425 How Tough were the inmates there? 121 00:06:14,165 --> 00:06:17,225 McDuff was considered meek among the killers 122 00:06:19,535 --> 00:06:20,535 - At retrieve. 123 00:06:20,725 --> 00:06:23,875 There were a lot of inmates there that had been, uh, 124 00:06:24,325 --> 00:06:26,835 their sentences had been commuted from death row 125 00:06:27,655 --> 00:06:28,755 to life in prison. 126 00:06:29,255 --> 00:06:31,675 Not life without parole, but just a life sentence. 127 00:06:32,075 --> 00:06:34,885 Several of those guys, in fact, 128 00:06:34,965 --> 00:06:36,725 I just had one stop by the museum. 129 00:06:36,955 --> 00:06:38,525 He's, he has since been paroled 130 00:06:38,525 --> 00:06:39,645 and he is living a good life. 131 00:06:40,265 --> 00:06:43,205 Uh, he stopped by here and visited with me the other day, 132 00:06:43,785 --> 00:06:48,555 and he was a, he was, um, a, a model inmate, 133 00:06:48,825 --> 00:06:50,435 even though he was, had been on death row. 134 00:06:50,435 --> 00:06:51,515 He is doing a line of sentence. 135 00:06:53,085 --> 00:06:55,945 And I guess the best way I can say it, uh, Robert, is 136 00:06:56,715 --> 00:06:58,735 you don't ever trust these guys a hundred percent. 137 00:06:59,395 --> 00:07:01,135 You, you, you try 138 00:07:01,135 --> 00:07:03,755 and use their, their history of 139 00:07:03,775 --> 00:07:05,675 how they behave in the institution. 140 00:07:06,295 --> 00:07:08,555 And you try and use that to the best of your advantage 141 00:07:08,615 --> 00:07:09,955 for managing that prison. 142 00:07:10,615 --> 00:07:13,155 And, and this guy in particular was a smart guy. 143 00:07:13,655 --> 00:07:17,435 He was a good worker. Uh, he was responsible 144 00:07:17,455 --> 00:07:18,755 as a boiler room operator. 145 00:07:19,255 --> 00:07:21,315 You know, boiler room is a very important job. 146 00:07:21,415 --> 00:07:24,195 You can blow the whole prison off the face of the ground, 147 00:07:24,375 --> 00:07:27,635 you know, but he was very responsible, did a good job. 148 00:07:28,215 --> 00:07:30,915 And what he actually did to get put on death row, it, 149 00:07:30,935 --> 00:07:33,115 it lose me right now off top of my head. 150 00:07:33,375 --> 00:07:37,055 But he got out and he, he's done where very well. 151 00:07:37,355 --> 00:07:39,055 That's not the case on some other guys 152 00:07:39,055 --> 00:07:40,735 that were down there that were off death row. 153 00:07:40,765 --> 00:07:42,455 Some of those guys I've mentioned evil 154 00:07:42,475 --> 00:07:44,575 before, uh, there was a bunch of guys 155 00:07:44,575 --> 00:07:46,415 that were very evil down there. 156 00:07:46,445 --> 00:07:48,495 Very seldom did fist fights happen on the tree. 157 00:07:48,495 --> 00:07:50,255 Most, most times it was a 158 00:07:50,565 --> 00:07:51,575 dabbing in a stabbing and a killing. 159 00:07:52,175 --> 00:07:55,655 I know there was at least, uh, one, one stabbing 160 00:07:55,725 --> 00:07:58,135 that I remember that ended up in a death down there. 161 00:07:58,675 --> 00:08:01,095 Um, it was a, uh, a gang hit. 162 00:08:01,315 --> 00:08:05,935 It was a, um, pistoleros hit AEs familia guy 163 00:08:06,715 --> 00:08:10,455 and, um, stabbed me multiple times and he died. 164 00:08:11,035 --> 00:08:13,575 So yeah, it was a pretty rough place back then. 165 00:08:14,075 --> 00:08:17,575 But that was just one of many units that TDC had a lot 166 00:08:17,575 --> 00:08:18,735 of violence on. 167 00:08:19,435 --> 00:08:22,045 Unfortunately, I have to kind of tell on myself. 168 00:08:22,265 --> 00:08:25,245 Uh, when I was at retrieve, it was a maximum security unit. 169 00:08:25,715 --> 00:08:28,525 Unfortunately, we had several inmates run 170 00:08:28,545 --> 00:08:29,645 off while I was there. 171 00:08:30,065 --> 00:08:32,965 Uh, we actually had three inmates in segregation 172 00:08:33,715 --> 00:08:37,815 that were Aaron Brotherhood members who 173 00:08:38,565 --> 00:08:41,655 manipulated to, um, secure structures 174 00:08:41,655 --> 00:08:42,815 and got outside the fence. 175 00:08:43,545 --> 00:08:46,525 One of the inmates, his grandmother lived not too far from 176 00:08:46,525 --> 00:08:48,605 the unit down in the Lake Jackson area. 177 00:08:48,705 --> 00:08:50,565 And there the crow flies from retrieve. 178 00:08:50,565 --> 00:08:52,445 Lake Jackson is probably five miles. 179 00:08:53,395 --> 00:08:55,055 He and his two compadres went down 180 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:56,500 and stole his grandmother's vehicle, 181 00:08:57,425 --> 00:08:59,725 and off they went up 59. 182 00:09:00,215 --> 00:09:01,525 Don't tell 'em where they were going to go, 183 00:09:01,525 --> 00:09:03,445 but they ran outta gas, didn't have any money, 184 00:09:03,785 --> 00:09:05,365 ran outta gas on the side of the road. 185 00:09:06,145 --> 00:09:09,165 And I hadn't been at the prison very long, uh, 186 00:09:09,225 --> 00:09:10,845 as the major, the new major there. 187 00:09:11,785 --> 00:09:14,045 And, um, the warden called me up front. 188 00:09:15,205 --> 00:09:17,365 Actually, before that I was getting my shoe shined. 189 00:09:18,095 --> 00:09:21,035 The inmate that was shining my shoe was a guy named Reyes. 190 00:09:21,705 --> 00:09:25,325 Well, he had been put in segregation earlier 191 00:09:25,325 --> 00:09:27,525 because he tried to cut one of our warden's throat. 192 00:09:27,805 --> 00:09:30,725 Actually he did. He cut Bob cousin's throat, tried to escape 193 00:09:32,305 --> 00:09:35,205 to try and give you some idea of the clientele at retrieve. 194 00:09:36,285 --> 00:09:39,405 Although he cut a warden's throat in a, an attempted escape. 195 00:09:39,545 --> 00:09:42,595 He ended up, ended up being a boot black. 196 00:09:42,855 --> 00:09:44,475 In other words, he worked in the officer's 197 00:09:44,475 --> 00:09:45,875 barbershop shining shoes. 198 00:09:47,455 --> 00:09:49,235 So I, I remember that guy. 199 00:09:49,585 --> 00:09:50,715 Only reason I remember that, 200 00:09:50,715 --> 00:09:53,555 because once he cut Bob Cousin's throat, he didn't kill him. 201 00:09:54,015 --> 00:09:56,715 He came to the diagnostic when I was a correctional officer, 202 00:09:56,735 --> 00:09:59,675 and I remember because he had a full tattooed tiger on his 203 00:09:59,675 --> 00:10:01,475 back, and the tail came across his shoulder 204 00:10:01,495 --> 00:10:02,875 and kind of looped around his belly. 205 00:10:04,955 --> 00:10:06,615 That's the only time I'd been around a guy 206 00:10:06,725 --> 00:10:09,495 because of, uh, the notoriety of 207 00:10:09,645 --> 00:10:11,135 what he did to Warden Cousins. 208 00:10:11,285 --> 00:10:12,495 When I got down to retrieve, 209 00:10:12,595 --> 00:10:13,855 I'm in there getting my shoe shine 210 00:10:13,875 --> 00:10:17,375 and I'm thinking, I, I know you res where I know you from. 211 00:10:17,375 --> 00:10:18,655 She said, well, you probably know me from the 212 00:10:18,655 --> 00:10:19,695 warden cousin incident. 213 00:10:19,695 --> 00:10:20,935 Yeah, that's where I know you from. 214 00:10:21,285 --> 00:10:25,015 Well, the siren goes off and I go up the warden. 215 00:10:25,215 --> 00:10:27,135 I go up there and res says, you need 216 00:10:27,135 --> 00:10:28,255 to kind of go up front major. 217 00:10:28,535 --> 00:10:29,655 I mean, I'm, I'm green. 218 00:10:29,875 --> 00:10:31,895 I'm, I'm wet behind the ears race to 219 00:10:31,895 --> 00:10:33,015 that, that particular unit. 220 00:10:33,055 --> 00:10:36,285 I go up front Warden, warden asked me, he says, uh, 221 00:10:36,515 --> 00:10:37,565 have we had an escape? 222 00:10:38,205 --> 00:10:41,775 I said, that I know of. I said, I've checked all the counts. 223 00:10:41,835 --> 00:10:43,295 You know, I, that's one thing I do. 224 00:10:43,375 --> 00:10:45,455 I check all the counts, make sure all the counts were, 225 00:10:45,795 --> 00:10:47,055 you know, paper counts were, you know, 226 00:10:47,055 --> 00:10:48,335 make sure everything tallied up. 227 00:10:49,045 --> 00:10:50,855 Well, sure enough, he, he said, well, 228 00:10:51,215 --> 00:10:54,735 I just got a call from an officer at Crosby close to Crosby. 229 00:10:55,225 --> 00:10:56,435 Says he's got three guys 230 00:10:56,435 --> 00:10:58,515 that said they just escaped from the retrieve unit. 231 00:10:59,755 --> 00:11:01,365 Well, sure enough, those were our three guys 232 00:11:01,365 --> 00:11:03,965 that escaped from retrieve unit, and they were AB members. 233 00:11:04,795 --> 00:11:07,055 And that was probably the most embarrassing escape 234 00:11:07,055 --> 00:11:09,015 that I had ever been associated with 235 00:11:09,015 --> 00:11:10,615 because that was on my watch. 236 00:11:11,115 --> 00:11:13,335 One of my night shift, uh, supervisors 237 00:11:13,355 --> 00:11:15,295 and some of his staff had counted 238 00:11:16,565 --> 00:11:19,025 dummy bodies all night long. 239 00:11:20,435 --> 00:11:25,255 They had made good dummy heads stuffed the bed with pillows 240 00:11:25,255 --> 00:11:28,095 and various sheets and things that had gathered, 241 00:11:29,075 --> 00:11:33,485 and they counted a non-breathing body for like five counts. 242 00:11:34,255 --> 00:11:35,995 So that was embarrassing, to say the least. 243 00:11:36,765 --> 00:11:40,065 But the retrieve unit was full of guys like, uh, that guy 244 00:11:40,065 --> 00:11:43,345 that cut dozens throat and those guys that escaped. 245 00:11:43,445 --> 00:11:47,145 It was a, it was so back to McDuff, if I might say McDuff, 246 00:11:47,145 --> 00:11:50,345 since he kind of notoriety down there, he was a nobody. 247 00:11:50,975 --> 00:11:52,745 - Well, I take it that in your career you meant a 248 00:11:52,745 --> 00:11:53,860 lot worse than McDuff. 249 00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:56,445 - I have particularly those individuals 250 00:11:56,445 --> 00:11:57,605 that were into gangs. 251 00:11:57,635 --> 00:12:01,205 Yeah. You know, I, I had on one occasion, uh, 252 00:12:01,205 --> 00:12:05,085 when I was at Ramsey, uh, the guy that was head of the, uh, 253 00:12:05,085 --> 00:12:09,185 Texas ate, uh, he came over for a medical appointment. 254 00:12:09,885 --> 00:12:14,325 I did not know him that well at that time, but my major did. 255 00:12:14,965 --> 00:12:17,365 I met him at the back gate, escorted me in 256 00:12:17,365 --> 00:12:19,605 because he was a high profile gang member. 257 00:12:20,495 --> 00:12:23,655 And, uh, he told the major, he says, uh, 258 00:12:23,795 --> 00:12:25,215 you still got my brother over here? 259 00:12:25,555 --> 00:12:29,665 He said, yeah. He says, well, you lock him up while I'm, uh, 260 00:12:29,975 --> 00:12:31,385 here for the medical appointment, 261 00:12:31,535 --> 00:12:33,905 because I've been given the hit to kill him, 262 00:12:34,245 --> 00:12:35,505 and I can't do that to my mama. 263 00:12:37,245 --> 00:12:40,425 So we locked the guy up temporarily until we got 264 00:12:40,615 --> 00:12:43,745 that gang member off the unit their way he could go back 265 00:12:44,325 --> 00:12:47,495 to his gang members and say, I was going kill him, 266 00:12:47,555 --> 00:12:49,135 but I couldn't get to him. 267 00:12:50,765 --> 00:12:54,315 And, you know, he, 268 00:12:54,315 --> 00:12:55,955 there's no doubt in my mind he'd have done it. 269 00:12:56,535 --> 00:12:57,795 That's kind of the way some 270 00:12:57,795 --> 00:12:59,475 of this gang stuff works, you know? 271 00:12:59,575 --> 00:13:03,275 And, uh, yeah, there's, there's some guys out there that, 272 00:13:03,375 --> 00:13:04,515 uh, that are clever. 273 00:13:04,905 --> 00:13:06,395 There's, there's a lot of these guys 274 00:13:06,395 --> 00:13:09,395 that are extremely clever or very bright. 275 00:13:09,505 --> 00:13:14,015 Some of the most high profile escapes we've ever had 276 00:13:14,635 --> 00:13:16,695 are guys who've got a pretty high intellect. 277 00:13:16,715 --> 00:13:21,635 And they, they're, they're very, uh, very astute 278 00:13:21,695 --> 00:13:23,715 to their environment and can make it to the best 279 00:13:23,715 --> 00:13:25,275 of their advantage and what they wanna do. 280 00:13:25,275 --> 00:13:26,675 And that is get out of custody. 281 00:13:27,795 --> 00:13:29,265 - Stack served as the warden 282 00:13:29,285 --> 00:13:31,705 of the East Ham unit for five years. 283 00:13:32,495 --> 00:13:34,225 Call the ham by inmates. 284 00:13:34,925 --> 00:13:38,465 Its most notorious historical resident was Clyde Barrow 285 00:13:38,805 --> 00:13:40,385 of Bonnie and Clyde fame. 286 00:13:41,265 --> 00:13:44,075 They even returned to break out a gang member in a deadly 287 00:13:44,075 --> 00:13:46,795 shootout, prompting the head of the prison system 288 00:13:46,795 --> 00:13:50,475 to hire former Texas Ranger Frank Hamer, to haunt them down 289 00:13:50,775 --> 00:13:52,995 and kill them in a hail of gunfire. 290 00:13:54,535 --> 00:13:58,195 - The eastham unit, way back in the day, it was where, 291 00:13:58,305 --> 00:14:00,955 that was one of the prisons where the hardened 292 00:14:01,915 --> 00:14:03,995 ible type inmates, that's where they were sent. 293 00:14:05,035 --> 00:14:08,815 And Clyde ended up there, even though he was a young man, 294 00:14:08,875 --> 00:14:10,375 and he went there 295 00:14:10,375 --> 00:14:12,615 because of all the crimes he had done 296 00:14:12,625 --> 00:14:13,935 prior to coming to prison. 297 00:14:14,475 --> 00:14:17,455 It wasn't because he was an experienced convict. 298 00:14:18,225 --> 00:14:21,405 And there's no doubt in my mind that he probably was abused. 299 00:14:21,915 --> 00:14:24,365 There's no doubt in my mind that he probably was abused 300 00:14:24,425 --> 00:14:26,525 by some older men there convicts, 301 00:14:26,785 --> 00:14:30,705 because he was 18, 19 years old, 302 00:14:30,865 --> 00:14:31,905 I think, when he went to East End. 303 00:14:32,765 --> 00:14:36,145 And, uh, actually, uh, there was a person that was, 304 00:14:36,145 --> 00:14:38,385 there was an inmate building tender that got killed, 305 00:14:39,425 --> 00:14:40,565 uh, if I remember correctly. 306 00:14:41,185 --> 00:14:44,515 And Clyde supposedly killed him, 307 00:14:45,195 --> 00:14:46,855 but another inmate took the rap for him 308 00:14:47,295 --> 00:14:49,745 because Clyde was gonna be coming up for parole. 309 00:14:50,835 --> 00:14:54,915 And this particular inmate was one that, uh, uh, 310 00:14:55,235 --> 00:14:56,755 overexercise his authority. 311 00:14:57,575 --> 00:15:01,235 And, um, apparently I had enough of it 312 00:15:01,255 --> 00:15:03,725 and beat him with a bar. 313 00:15:04,385 --> 00:15:07,965 And, uh, another inmate took, took, uh, and stabbed him. 314 00:15:08,545 --> 00:15:12,595 And, uh, but yeah, Eastham, when you go to Eastham, 315 00:15:12,615 --> 00:15:13,915 you're gonna be there a long time. 316 00:15:14,065 --> 00:15:18,445 When I left in oh six, there was an inmate there 317 00:15:19,475 --> 00:15:23,435 who had done, I don't know, 27 years. 318 00:15:24,335 --> 00:15:26,095 I went out there two years ago. He's still there. 319 00:15:27,265 --> 00:15:32,155 He's probably done 42 years for sexual assault 320 00:15:32,815 --> 00:15:34,835 of various people. 321 00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:38,555 He's one that, although I think he's changed his life, 322 00:15:39,395 --> 00:15:41,445 he's not one that I think we need to release. 323 00:15:42,125 --> 00:15:45,005 I mean, I wish him, well, I hope he goes to heaven, 324 00:15:45,705 --> 00:15:49,265 but we don't need to release him back to the population. 325 00:15:50,735 --> 00:15:53,075 I'm talking about our population where you and I reside. 326 00:15:53,545 --> 00:15:55,275 There's some people you just don't let out. 327 00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:58,505 And I think that would be too much of a risk to let 328 00:15:58,505 --> 00:16:00,585 that person out, even though he's got some age on 329 00:16:00,585 --> 00:16:03,175 him. I wouldn't let him out 330 00:16:03,715 --> 00:16:04,715 - When I return. 331 00:16:04,965 --> 00:16:07,365 I will talk to Stax about the challenges of serving 332 00:16:07,425 --> 00:16:11,645 as a corrections officer in the Texas prison system today. 333 00:16:25,995 --> 00:16:29,995 A few days before this interview, 27 year old Jovan Motley 334 00:16:30,585 --> 00:16:33,835 died while trying to restrain an inmate at the Eastham unit, 335 00:16:34,295 --> 00:16:35,635 now named the Wainwright unit. 336 00:16:36,415 --> 00:16:38,355 Motley was part of a five member team 337 00:16:38,385 --> 00:16:40,795 that physically removes inmates who refused 338 00:16:40,815 --> 00:16:41,995 to come out of their cells. 339 00:16:42,855 --> 00:16:44,915 He had been an officer for one year 340 00:16:45,535 --> 00:16:46,795 at the time of this interview. 341 00:16:46,855 --> 00:16:49,075 The cause of his death had not been determined. 342 00:16:50,745 --> 00:16:53,645 - You know, that is a very difficult job. 343 00:16:53,885 --> 00:16:56,245 I, you know, our law enforcement community out there, 344 00:16:56,275 --> 00:16:57,925 they got a very dangerous job. 345 00:16:58,145 --> 00:17:01,125 You know, when I worked in the prison, I could pretty well 346 00:17:02,085 --> 00:17:03,415 feel comfortable walking up 347 00:17:03,415 --> 00:17:05,295 and down my hallway, whether I was an officer, 348 00:17:05,295 --> 00:17:07,855 whether I was a lieutenant, a captain, major warden, 349 00:17:08,055 --> 00:17:10,535 whatever, that a guy walking down the hallway 350 00:17:11,305 --> 00:17:12,935 ain't gonna pull a gun out and shoot me. 351 00:17:13,575 --> 00:17:14,815 I, I didn't have to worry about that. 352 00:17:15,135 --> 00:17:16,815 I never really worried about that at all. 353 00:17:17,355 --> 00:17:19,455 Now, he might have a knife on him, you know, 354 00:17:20,035 --> 00:17:21,895 but our law enforcement community out there, 355 00:17:21,895 --> 00:17:24,375 when they walk up on that car, they have no idea 356 00:17:24,405 --> 00:17:25,415 what they're walking up with. 357 00:17:25,435 --> 00:17:26,815 So my hat's off to those men 358 00:17:26,815 --> 00:17:28,095 and women are out there doing that. 359 00:17:29,295 --> 00:17:33,545 But in the correctional setting, it's a very dangerous job, 360 00:17:34,005 --> 00:17:36,785 uh, particularly when you become understaffed. 361 00:17:37,085 --> 00:17:38,345 And right now, unfortunately, 362 00:17:38,365 --> 00:17:40,785 our prison system is having some staffing issues. 363 00:17:41,685 --> 00:17:43,755 - Stack says he found that 5% 364 00:17:43,755 --> 00:17:46,315 of the prison population was just pure evil 365 00:17:46,775 --> 00:17:48,475 and caused most of the trouble. 366 00:17:49,105 --> 00:17:52,565 - 95% of them, the, the inmates that I did time 367 00:17:52,565 --> 00:17:54,045 with were model inmates. 368 00:17:54,155 --> 00:17:57,165 They, uh, they worked very well in a structured environment. 369 00:17:57,435 --> 00:17:59,205 They caused very little problems. 370 00:17:59,235 --> 00:18:02,125 They, they followed instructions. They went to work. 371 00:18:02,475 --> 00:18:05,135 They were very little problems, 372 00:18:05,715 --> 00:18:09,735 but that other 5% caused you that 95% of your problems. 373 00:18:10,395 --> 00:18:12,975 And I think probably, uh, 374 00:18:12,975 --> 00:18:15,135 there's probably some school teachers out there that can 375 00:18:16,485 --> 00:18:20,255 probably relate to that and that most of their kids 376 00:18:20,775 --> 00:18:22,645 probably, or good kids, 377 00:18:23,105 --> 00:18:24,605 but you may have just a few in there 378 00:18:24,605 --> 00:18:25,965 that cause a lot of disruption. 379 00:18:25,965 --> 00:18:28,965 That causes a very poor environment for trying to, 380 00:18:29,145 --> 00:18:30,485 to learn and teach people. 381 00:18:31,335 --> 00:18:34,835 But I think most of that was strictly, a lot 382 00:18:34,835 --> 00:18:35,915 of it was bravado. 383 00:18:35,955 --> 00:18:37,235 A lot of it was brought on by 384 00:18:37,775 --> 00:18:41,155 people in higher echelons within their organizations 385 00:18:41,155 --> 00:18:44,915 that were even more evil, making more evil occur. 386 00:18:46,195 --> 00:18:47,435 I think that would be a good way of 387 00:18:47,595 --> 00:18:48,595 - Describe it. 388 00:18:48,595 --> 00:18:48,795 Well, I, I've talked 389 00:18:49,095 --> 00:18:52,475 and interviewed during my career a number of those 95% 390 00:18:52,475 --> 00:18:53,875 of the population inmate. 391 00:18:53,875 --> 00:18:56,115 And they always used to say, yeah, they would refer 392 00:18:56,115 --> 00:18:57,715 to an inmate, he knows how to do his time. 393 00:18:58,815 --> 00:18:59,835 Is it the structure 394 00:19:00,055 --> 00:19:04,395 and enforce discipline here that suddenly they're able to, 395 00:19:05,055 --> 00:19:06,635 you know, function and get things done 396 00:19:06,665 --> 00:19:08,235 that they don't have on the outside? 397 00:19:08,875 --> 00:19:11,035 - I think one of the key ingredients, uh, 398 00:19:11,105 --> 00:19:15,995 that causes these guys to, uh, come to their senses first 399 00:19:16,695 --> 00:19:18,795 is they're not on any chemicals anymore. 400 00:19:19,215 --> 00:19:21,475 You know, when they're out in the world, a lot 401 00:19:21,475 --> 00:19:23,155 of 'em have a lot of chemical problems, 402 00:19:23,155 --> 00:19:24,195 whether it be alcohol, 403 00:19:24,195 --> 00:19:26,195 whether it be drugs, whatever it may be. 404 00:19:26,935 --> 00:19:28,635 And you know, when I, 405 00:19:28,835 --> 00:19:30,675 I think most anybody in law enforcement 406 00:19:30,695 --> 00:19:33,075 or any treatment would tell you that, uh, 407 00:19:33,075 --> 00:19:34,955 when some people get on chemicals, uh, 408 00:19:34,955 --> 00:19:36,475 they're not the same people they are 409 00:19:36,585 --> 00:19:37,835 when they're not, obviously. 410 00:19:38,135 --> 00:19:41,075 So when these guys come to us from the county jails, 411 00:19:41,075 --> 00:19:42,555 they're pretty well cleaned up. 412 00:19:42,625 --> 00:19:45,755 They have, uh, gotten all of that stuff out of them, 413 00:19:46,095 --> 00:19:48,995 and they are mentally prepared, particularly those 414 00:19:48,995 --> 00:19:50,235 that have recidivated 415 00:19:50,385 --> 00:19:52,475 that have been in the prison more than one occasion. 416 00:19:52,905 --> 00:19:55,675 They know what they're going to have to do to 417 00:19:56,315 --> 00:19:59,915 maximize their, their quality of life in the prison. 418 00:20:00,705 --> 00:20:02,635 - What is it, do you think that brings them back? 419 00:20:03,185 --> 00:20:05,515 - Well, I think, uh, that's a, 420 00:20:05,515 --> 00:20:06,715 that's a pretty good question. 421 00:20:07,275 --> 00:20:11,605 I think a lot of it is that they, they, we got a lot of men 422 00:20:11,605 --> 00:20:14,165 that have been in prison are very talented men and women. 423 00:20:14,515 --> 00:20:16,245 They got some real good skill sets, 424 00:20:16,745 --> 00:20:18,685 and when they get outta prison, they're able 425 00:20:18,685 --> 00:20:20,005 to make some really good money, 426 00:20:20,355 --> 00:20:22,525 have some really good jobs, and make good money. 427 00:20:22,545 --> 00:20:24,805 But then they start dabbling in those chemicals 428 00:20:25,225 --> 00:20:29,075 and they start having some flawed thinking and, 429 00:20:29,135 --> 00:20:31,555 and have some blurred vision, you might say. 430 00:20:31,895 --> 00:20:33,915 And it causes 'em to not think the way 431 00:20:33,915 --> 00:20:34,915 that they probably should. 432 00:20:35,095 --> 00:20:38,315 And I think I blame it primarily on chemicals, 433 00:20:38,315 --> 00:20:42,115 whether it be the alcohol, whether it be the, the, the drug, 434 00:20:42,305 --> 00:20:43,475 illicit drug, whatever. 435 00:20:43,595 --> 00:20:44,955 I, that's what I believe. 436 00:20:45,375 --> 00:20:47,925 Uh, now, unfortunately, there are some people 437 00:20:47,925 --> 00:20:49,325 that are just downright evil. 438 00:20:49,805 --> 00:20:51,325 I mean, that's just fact live. 439 00:20:52,145 --> 00:20:54,485 - Now, retired Stax is the director 440 00:20:54,485 --> 00:20:56,125 of the Texas Prison Museum. 441 00:20:56,705 --> 00:20:59,285 The nonprofit museum is located in Huntsville, 442 00:20:59,285 --> 00:21:02,605 Texas on Interstate 45 between Dallas and Houston. 443 00:21:03,585 --> 00:21:06,805 It features many unusual artifacts about the history 444 00:21:06,805 --> 00:21:11,005 of the prison system, including an electric chair named Old 445 00:21:11,225 --> 00:21:15,205 Sparky that was used from 1924 to 1964 446 00:21:15,385 --> 00:21:16,405 for executions. 447 00:21:17,995 --> 00:21:19,335 - The Texas Prison Museum. 448 00:21:19,435 --> 00:21:22,295 Our mission is to educate the people of, of Texas 449 00:21:22,435 --> 00:21:24,935 and the world about the, uh, 450 00:21:25,735 --> 00:21:29,115 the prison system from its beginning in 1848 451 00:21:29,495 --> 00:21:31,675 to current events as much as we can. 452 00:21:33,195 --> 00:21:34,645 There's a lot of history here. 453 00:21:35,105 --> 00:21:37,445 Uh, there's a lot of history here 454 00:21:37,445 --> 00:21:38,845 that we never need to repeat. 455 00:21:39,225 --> 00:21:42,685 Uh, we, we speak about that. Uh, we tell it like it is. 456 00:21:43,145 --> 00:21:47,245 You know, back in the day when we had a convict leasing 457 00:21:47,245 --> 00:21:51,455 system, we never, ever want to go back and, 458 00:21:51,595 --> 00:21:53,175 and reinstitute something like that. 459 00:21:53,325 --> 00:21:58,175 That was one of the most mismanaged, most cruel programs 460 00:21:58,175 --> 00:21:59,655 that the state of Texas had because 461 00:22:00,415 --> 00:22:03,375 although the people that were leasing the inmates 462 00:22:03,995 --> 00:22:06,735 had a responsibility to care for the inmate's wellbeing, 463 00:22:07,205 --> 00:22:10,775 nutritional needs, clothing needs, medical needs 464 00:22:11,605 --> 00:22:12,665 for whatever reason, a lot 465 00:22:12,665 --> 00:22:14,425 of 'em did not do that because of that. 466 00:22:14,475 --> 00:22:16,105 There were a lot of inmate deaths. 467 00:22:16,405 --> 00:22:20,145 It was, it was cheaper to get another one than 468 00:22:20,145 --> 00:22:21,385 to take care of those needs. 469 00:22:22,165 --> 00:22:24,665 So that's one thing we talk about is the good 470 00:22:24,665 --> 00:22:25,665 and the bad of the system. 471 00:22:25,965 --> 00:22:28,185 The good things that are going on in the system are, 472 00:22:28,185 --> 00:22:29,545 as I said, some of the programmatic 473 00:22:29,545 --> 00:22:30,905 activities they got over there. 474 00:22:31,005 --> 00:22:33,425 Now, uh, the faith-based programs are good, 475 00:22:33,425 --> 00:22:35,265 but here at the museum in particular, 476 00:22:35,415 --> 00:22:36,905 there's just a lot of history. 477 00:22:36,905 --> 00:22:38,865 We have the original electric chair here, 478 00:22:39,155 --> 00:22:41,545 361 men died in that chair. 479 00:22:42,125 --> 00:22:43,585 Uh, no women ever died. 480 00:22:43,975 --> 00:22:46,265 There's a lot of good artwork in here. 481 00:22:46,655 --> 00:22:49,625 There's a lot of just creativity items 482 00:22:49,775 --> 00:22:51,985 that inmates have made, whether they were trying 483 00:22:52,005 --> 00:22:54,265 to allude the system through an escape attempt, 484 00:22:54,535 --> 00:22:58,865 whether it was, uh, contraband such, uh, 485 00:22:59,405 --> 00:23:03,505 uh, making a homemade steel out of a milk can, uh, 486 00:23:03,505 --> 00:23:06,465 making a food processor out of a cardboard. 487 00:23:07,025 --> 00:23:10,025 I mean, there, tattoo, gun, just all kinds of things here 488 00:23:10,025 --> 00:23:11,505 that we feel very proud of. 489 00:23:11,605 --> 00:23:13,785 And we would love to have anybody, if you're listening 490 00:23:14,465 --> 00:23:17,065 immunity, come and visit with us. We'd love to have them. 491 00:23:17,955 --> 00:23:19,355 - I find it interesting that 492 00:23:20,115 --> 00:23:23,875 ex-offenders stop into the Texas Prison Museum here. 493 00:23:24,025 --> 00:23:26,595 What, what do you think draws them back to here? 494 00:23:27,765 --> 00:23:29,855 - Well, I'm pleased to say that most 495 00:23:29,875 --> 00:23:32,175 of them are actually bringing their children in here. 496 00:23:32,795 --> 00:23:35,695 Uh, the ones that I've seen come in here, they bring their, 497 00:23:35,985 --> 00:23:37,135 their children in here 498 00:23:37,355 --> 00:23:42,095 and they kinda show, you know, the things that I did, your, 499 00:23:42,125 --> 00:23:45,715 what your dad did, these are the things that I had to go 500 00:23:45,715 --> 00:23:49,595 through, uh, as a result of my decisions that I made. 501 00:23:50,095 --> 00:23:53,675 And I think it's kind of an education opportunity for them 502 00:23:54,625 --> 00:23:57,635 just to share with their family, their particular children 503 00:23:57,705 --> 00:24:00,475 that, you know, I made some terrible mistakes and 504 00:24:00,475 --> 00:24:02,035 because of that, this is where I ended up 505 00:24:02,495 --> 00:24:04,235 and these are the things I had to endure. 506 00:24:04,375 --> 00:24:05,635 And you don't want to have to do this. 507 00:24:06,015 --> 00:24:07,755 But we see a lot of those come through here, 508 00:24:07,815 --> 00:24:09,155 and I think that's a good thing. 509 00:24:09,815 --> 00:24:12,395 Uh, we have some, like I mentioned not too long ago, 510 00:24:12,435 --> 00:24:15,835 I had a guy come in here that was an extra death row inmate 511 00:24:15,835 --> 00:24:17,675 that came by just to stop by and say hi, 512 00:24:17,675 --> 00:24:19,475 and say, thank you for what you did for me warden. 513 00:24:20,175 --> 00:24:22,475 And, uh, that's a good feeling, you know? 514 00:24:23,015 --> 00:24:25,955 But then you got these other guys that are still somewhat 515 00:24:27,055 --> 00:24:29,015 petering on the gang banging side. 516 00:24:29,015 --> 00:24:31,015 Mm-Hmm, that wanna bring in their little old 517 00:24:31,855 --> 00:24:33,505 chip or their girlfriend and, 518 00:24:34,005 --> 00:24:36,625 and, uh, say, you know, yeah, this wasn't nothing. 519 00:24:36,705 --> 00:24:38,745 I could do this standing on my head, you know, try 520 00:24:38,745 --> 00:24:40,665 and be that bravado stuff I talked about. 521 00:24:41,485 --> 00:24:44,345 But most of them are pretty humbled when they come in here, 522 00:24:44,405 --> 00:24:46,505 and we've never had a problem with any of 'em. 523 00:24:46,505 --> 00:24:49,585 They've always been well-behaved, and we welcome them here. 524 00:24:54,765 --> 00:24:58,225 - In my next episode, David Stacks will weigh in with advice 525 00:24:58,245 --> 00:25:02,265 for your personal safety based on his 30 years of dealing 526 00:25:02,295 --> 00:25:04,345 with some of the meanest criminals in Texas, 527 00:25:05,445 --> 00:25:07,465 please tell your friends who love true crime 528 00:25:07,495 --> 00:25:09,785 that they can bypass secondhand tales 529 00:25:09,805 --> 00:25:12,065 and get their true crime fixed here 530 00:25:12,495 --> 00:25:14,865 with authentic stories straight from the source. 531 00:25:15,735 --> 00:25:18,065 Tell them that True Crime Reporter is one 532 00:25:18,065 --> 00:25:20,585 of the few podcasts where you can hear raw, 533 00:25:21,275 --> 00:25:24,025 unfiltered accounts from law enforcement victims, 534 00:25:24,205 --> 00:25:27,825 and even convicted criminals, plus insights 535 00:25:27,885 --> 00:25:29,465 for your personal protection. 536 00:25:30,245 --> 00:25:33,585 Thanks for listening, and until we meet again, be prepared. 537 00:25:34,355 --> 00:25:38,305 Don't get scared. This is Robert Riggs reporting.