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Robert, you know, I, I'll go
back to the first cold case that,

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that I was really involved
in, that, that had success.

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And it was a case in the book. It was
a case down in the Virgin Islands. And,

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uh, a naval officer, uh, Dana
Bartlett was brutally murdered, uh,

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by three suspects there.

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Former N C I S agent Joe Kennedy
went on to establish the first

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federal cold case homicide
unit starting in 1986 with

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the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

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Kennedy investigated crimes involving
sailors and marines around the world.

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Hello, I'm investigative
reporter Robert Riggs,

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here to take you inside the crime
scene tape to hear about cold cases

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from the Real Life Agency
popularized by Hollywood N C

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I S.

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Joe Kennedy is still out there lending
his cold case experience to small law

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enforcement agencies that seek help.

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He serves on the Cold Case Coalition,

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nonprofit volunteer organization,

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comprised of retired law
enforcement officers and experts.

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And Kennedy has written a brilliant
guide for cold case investigators titled,

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solving Cold Cases, investigation
Techniques and Protocols.

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I placed links in the show notes.

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Here's part two of my
interview with Joe Kennedy.

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How do you define a
cold case? When does a,

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an active murder investigation
or rape investigation go cold?

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Yeah, typically, Robert,

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that is after one year in duration
where the case has not been resolved.

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You will also see some departments will
designate it as a cold case if there is

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a change in investigators or a change
in detectives. But typically it's,

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it's a year old.

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And does it become more difficult?

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Can you describe how you attack
a cold case where you start.

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Robert? You know, I'll, I'll go
back to the first cold case that,

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that I was really involved
in, that that had success.

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And it was a case in the book, it was
a case down in the Virgin Islands. And,

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uh, a naval officer, uh, Dana
Bartlett was brutally murdered, uh,

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by three suspects there, uh, beaten
in the head with a baseball bat,

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shot in the head, uh,

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all over a robbery and his failure to
comply with the robbers, right? And,

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and got him killed. But, you know,
when we first started that case,

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we took it weeks to just look
at it, the material. And,

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and that case was only 18
months old. Uh, some things,

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if you get in a 20 year old
case, man, that can be, you know,

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couple boxes and boxes of banker
boxes of, of files. But the,

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the first thing you have to do is you
have to understand the case. You know,

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when we respond to a hot homicide
or a contemporaneous murder,

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you have the ability to draw on the
five senses, right? Sight, smell, taste,

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feel. So,

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so you still remember the smell of that
crime scene and that decomposing body

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or, you know, but with a cold case, you,

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you don't have that ability to tap into
those five senses. And so you have to,

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you have to know it. You
have to understand it. And
so I would say that the,

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and a lot of cold case
investigators miss this step is,

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is that you have to understand,

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you have to know the file better than
you do your hot homicides because you

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weren't there to, to take in
those things like sights, smell,

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sound right at the original scene.

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And you do,

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what are you describe as
evidence-based investigations?

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How do you apply that to a cold case?

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Well, in, in a lot of cold cases,
what you're trying to do is you're,

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you're trying to narrow
down the pool of suspects.

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That's what I have learned that,

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that I probably do best and
been doing for years. Didn't,

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didn't really put that
terminology toward that phrase.

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But what you're doing is,
as you look at the scene,

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you are looking at simple things
like the handedness of the offender,

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the relationship or potential
relationships between the
suspect and the victim.

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What is the crime scene telling
us? And then, you know, as I said,

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an evidence-based investigation,
unfortunately, in North America,

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not just the US but you'll see in North
America, the Canadians, the Mexicans,

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um, uh, they tend to follow
suspects. And you'll find this is,

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is predominant in Europe as
well. In other words, we,

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we can put a suspect at a
crime scene on a video camera.

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We can put a suspect's phone at
a scene. And so we get, okay,

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this is probably the right suspect,
and then something happens,

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which eliminates that suspect.
And then we're like, okay, well,

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who's our next suspect? Whereas I
like to look at the evidence, right?

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Okay. The offender had to be so
tall, he had to, the victim had to,

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this assault had to have started
in this part of the room, right?

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Based on the trajectory of the, the
rounds that entered the victim's torso,

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they would've had to been
standing here or there.

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Sometimes that's gonna eliminate
potential witnesses and suspects,

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but you gotta follow the
evidence. And, you know,

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the evidence can be something
very minute at a crime scene.

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I gotta be careful how I say this,
but I was helping on a case recently,

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and the victim's dead.

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He's a mechanic and he's working on
a car and he's dead under the car.

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But in one hand, as a cigarette lighter
and the other hand's a cigarette, I,

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I feel pretty confident that when
the offender walked up to him,

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he knew him because he was like leaning
up to light his cigarette, right?

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To have cop and then he shot. So that's,
that's minutiae or that's, and, and,

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and I could be totally,
I could be dead wrong.

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And that's where we have to understand
as investigators that sometimes as we

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evaluate and review scenes,
we could actually be wrong.

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But we want to try to follow what the
evidence or what the crime scene is

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telling us.

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So on the suspect based
investigations is that the old motive

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means an opportunity that you're pursuing.

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That's exactly what it is. Now,
I use components of that, Robert,

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but I'm not looking
for who had the motive.

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The opportunity is much
more important to me.

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But I want to know who does
not belong at the scene on

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the day of the murder or
the time of the murder. Let,

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let me explain that a little bit more. So,

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my sister-in-law is supposed to be at
my house on Thanksgiving, Christmas,

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and about 10 times a year on a
Thursday night and Friday morning.

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I love my sister-in-law, got
a great relationship with her,

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but she doesn't belong at my house any
other time. You see what I'm saying?

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I gotcha. So let's say,

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let's say that my brother is found
dead on the floor on Saturday morning,

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but yet my sister-in-law's reported to
have been seen in the parking lot out in

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front of my house. She did not belong
at my house on that day. Right?

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Right.

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You know,

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how many cases get solved by just figuring
out who does not belong at the scene

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on that day? They know the family,
they got a inter personal relationship,

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but they just did not belong there
that day. And that's what will,

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that's evidence, right?

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That's strong evidence that will
lead us to the right offender.

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Which could be a case of a
ring camera captures a vehicle

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outside the home of somebody's murdered.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely. We look at those,
you know, who had the means, motive,

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and opportunity, but motive
is so elusive, Robert,

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and we investigate a lot of cases.

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We think we're on the right
track with the motive. And,

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and then at the end of the case, you
go, wow, that had nothing to do with it.

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You know, it wasn't even a component,

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wasn't even a consideration because motive
is, I I also say it's fickle, right?

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And there's, we w here's
what we have to focus on.

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When we do an evidence-based
investigation,

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we're focusing on three groups of people.

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We're focusing first on family and
friends, coworkers and neighbors,

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and then associates and acquaintances.

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And hopefully out of those three
groups of people, you know,

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we need to determine,
okay, was our victim,

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did she have a closer
relationship with her family?

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Was she estranged from her family?

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Did she have a closer relationship
with her associates than her family?

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Did she always hang
out with her coworkers?

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Did she never hang out with her
neighbors? You know, these are,

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these are the questions. When we go back
to that victimology is so important.

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You know, what solves cases, and this is
what's happening in America right now,

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is there's a big battle between
technology like green doorbell,

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cameras and surveillance store
cameras and gumshoe detective work.

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And we need the new
technology, right? I mean,

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we would just put people in places.
Now by a camera years gone by,

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we put people in places
through witnesses, right?

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It's just instead of talking to people
and they say, Hey, I saw 'em. Now we can,

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we can generate an image of that. And
the phones, you know, substantiate that.

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We've always used phones, landline
phones, what have you, you know,

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to put people in certain places.
But evidence-based investigations,

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can the evidence support
your theory? Right?

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And you're gonna find that
with cold cases. Is it how it,

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the original investigators
thought, thought it happened?

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Are they onto the right suspect?
Are they onto the right trail? Or,

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or did they miss something?

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So even though maybe the security
camera caught a picture of them

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at the location where
the murderer occurred,

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you're still going to need the forensic
evidence to tie that person to the

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murder.

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Yeah, absolutely. Robert. And as I
mentioned a little earlier, you know,

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three things, saw the murder,
physical evidence, witnesses,

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and then we have to get 'em to tell
us, right? The suspects or confessions,

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you might find this interesting,

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only about 15% of murders are solved with
physical evidence, dna, fingerprints,

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et cetera. About 35% of cases
are solved with witnesses.

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The problem with witnesses is
they don't show up for trial.

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They change their story. Maybe
they have a, a, a, uh, you know,

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not such a, they have a checkered
pass, so they're impeached,

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their credibility's impeached, right?

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Or maybe we put 'em on a surveillance
camera cuz a witnesses is surveillance

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camera as well. About 35%.

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So you think 50% of murders are solved
with some, you know, d n a and witnesses.

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But then half of 'em, we gotta
get the folks to talk to us.

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And that's the key of building,

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building intimacy with the
suspects to get them to trust us.

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Cause they ultimately gotta betray
themselves. Right? Right. We,

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we have to get them to betray themselves.

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And that's sometimes
that's very difficult.

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Well,

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you talk about interrogation techniques
and you talk about a detective

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that really had an influence on you about,

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you'd gotta keep him
talking or get him talking.

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Sort of the same thing I would do as
a reporter, an investigative reporter.

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Describe that.

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Well, you know, I learned this
from a guy named Eddie Hemphill.

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He was an old school N C I s agent,

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ironically was also also from North
Carolina. So we had a natural bond.

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You know, we're, we're, you know, some,
a lot of common things. And you know,

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some of the first interrogations
that I set in with him on,

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he just kept talking
and talking. I thought,

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are you ever gonna ask him
about the crime? You know,

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cause we'd be there for hours. And
he taught me, let them bring that up.

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Just get to know them and when
they're ready to talk about that,

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they'll let you know. And I
thought that was so valuable.

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And so from that day forward, I've done
that for the last 35 years, is just,

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hey, create rapport.
You know, you know why,

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where investigators fell in
the interview room, Robert,

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is that we run out of things
to talk about. We think, okay,

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well they didn't confess,
we've been in here an hour.

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They haven't said anything. Oh,
okay. I guess they're not gonna, no,

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that's just, that's where
you just get started. Right?

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Good interrogators will spend hours,

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hours in an interview room or days if
necessary with suspects to build that

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rapport, to build that trust,
to get them. Cuz I mean,

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they're ultimately
betraying themselves, right?

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That's sometimes that's very
difficult task to, to accomplish.

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But I've seen other cases where they
just wanted to get it off their chest.

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I mean, I've interviewed
inmates and suddenly confess.

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Yeah, absolutely. You will see that
with a lot of cold cases, Robert.

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It's an instantaneous, they'll
go into the interview room,

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you're in there less than an hour, and
they're, they're talking, you know,

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and they're saying, Hey, I just
wanna get this off my chest.

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I've been carrying this thing
around. I will tell you this,

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I I've interviewed quite a
few suspects after, you know,

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like after the judicial proceedings
are over. And I'll say, okay,

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help me to learn from
you as we do new cases.

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And so I always say, okay, what,
after you killed the person,

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when did you think about 'em? And
it's amazing to me. They'd say, Hey,

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00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:37,370
it's like taking a digital photograph.

223
00:12:37,770 --> 00:12:40,730
I could not get the picture
of that victim outta my mind.

224
00:12:41,170 --> 00:12:43,730
I couldn't get the picture of
the victim's car. You know,

225
00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:45,450
every time I saw a certain color shirt,

226
00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:47,730
like the one the victim was
wearing the day I killed her,

227
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:52,080
it made me think of her. And it's
really interesting that, you know,

228
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,600
contrary to, to what I'm sharing with
you about lengthy interrogations, yes,

229
00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:57,960
you are absolutely
correct that some folks,

230
00:12:58,190 --> 00:13:01,280
they have carried this burden for
years and they just wanna get it out.

231
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:03,480
And a lot of times too, they
just wanna say, Hey, I did it.

232
00:13:03,670 --> 00:13:07,040
Then it takes rapport building to
get the details. You know, the,

233
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,560
the devil's in the details. Okay?
I, I get you're saying you did it,

234
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:13,080
but walk us through how you did it,
what you did next, what you did next,

235
00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:13,770
et cetera.

236
00:13:13,770 --> 00:13:14,580
These other,

237
00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:19,480
and I've seen 'em in cases post
crime behaviors of drinking

238
00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:22,240
and other problems among some of them.

239
00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:27,380
Man, I tell you, I I, I was, I was
consulting on a case, and I, I don't,

240
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:27,700
I think,

241
00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:30,540
I don't think they would've a problem if
I mentioned the state was in Arkansas a

242
00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:34,740
few weeks ago and I was helping a, a
police department. And so, you know,

243
00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:38,220
there's a murder. So what's
happened is, as I tell 'em,

244
00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:39,820
we gather around the table
and I say, Hey, look,

245
00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:41,260
this is what I think you're gonna see.

246
00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:44,140
I think it's a younger
offender in this case,

247
00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:46,500
based on what the crime scene
was telling me. And I said,

248
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:50,060
you're gonna see a deterioration of
that person's life since the murder.

249
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,100
And I think this murder was
about, if I remember right,

250
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,940
it was about two years old. And I said,

251
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,700
so what you're gonna see is driving
while impaired, you know, DUIs,

252
00:13:58,330 --> 00:14:01,260
open container violations,
these kind of things.

253
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,980
And that's very common in that people's
lives were will deteriorate cuz they're

254
00:14:05,980 --> 00:14:08,980
using drugs or alcohol.
Alcohol as a coping mechanism.

255
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,620
You'll also see just the
opposite, Robert, with suspects,

256
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,820
you'll see that suspects right after
the murder cleaned up their lives,

257
00:14:17,370 --> 00:14:21,900
they got better. They started going to
church, right? I mean, they got a job.

258
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,940
So you see, wait a minute,
before the murder, this,

259
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:27,540
this guy couldn't hold a
job. He was a deadbeat.

260
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,380
He lived in the basement of
his parents' house, you know,

261
00:14:30,380 --> 00:14:34,060
within days after the murder. All
of a sudden he is now, you know,

262
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,660
got this job and he's, you know,

263
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,140
now he's got a car and he is
moved out of the house. So it,

264
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,460
it can run both ways.

265
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,010
One thing that will happen with
post-defense behavior is also,

266
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:48,850
and this is hard on cold, it's
easier with, with hot homicides,

267
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:51,980
but it can be done with
cold cases, is a person.

268
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,540
And our personalities never
change, right? I mean,

269
00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:57,100
our personalities are formed
late, late teens, early twenties.

270
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,660
But what you'll see is,

271
00:14:58,670 --> 00:15:03,300
let's say your offender was a gregarious
individual who always came into work

272
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,740
and greeted everyone, right? So
that the day after the murder,

273
00:15:06,770 --> 00:15:11,250
that person is not going to be so
gregarious, right? In other words,

274
00:15:11,250 --> 00:15:14,170
he walks in his head down.
So you'll see there's,

275
00:15:14,170 --> 00:15:16,850
there's complete changes in behavior.

276
00:15:17,390 --> 00:15:20,890
The person that's normally always
on time, the day after the murder,

277
00:15:21,010 --> 00:15:24,250
a couple days after the murder is
late. The person that's never on time,

278
00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:27,730
the day after the murder. Now you
see he's prompt, right? And so,

279
00:15:27,790 --> 00:15:31,570
so these are some just some simple
behavior things. And a lot of folks,

280
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,490
what I look for in cold cases is
movement. Any kind of movement.

281
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:40,490
And that could be two blocks away,
two streets away, two states away,

282
00:15:40,950 --> 00:15:45,530
two continents. In my years at N
C I S, it was not uncommon. I, I,

283
00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:49,370
I can tell you that I at least got this
call five or six times, if not more.

284
00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:52,450
It was some homicide
detective in, you know,

285
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:55,410
a fairly significant sized city
that would call me and say, Hey,

286
00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:58,370
we're looking for John Smith here. And
he joined the Marine Corps. And I said,

287
00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:01,090
let me guess you suspect him of
committing a murder. And they went,

288
00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:03,730
how did you know? Because
that's what they, you know,

289
00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:08,370
they immediately are trying to leave the
area for what appear to be legitimate

290
00:16:08,370 --> 00:16:11,850
reasons. In other words, the guy
had no interest in the military,

291
00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:14,730
he does the murder. And then he
realizes, okay, I'll sign up for the,

292
00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:18,050
for the army to get outta here. You
might find this stat interesting,

293
00:16:18,210 --> 00:16:21,410
I have seen where several folks that
commit murder go on the cheap cruises,

294
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,030
right? Uhhuh the week after the
murder, two weeks after the murder,

295
00:16:25,290 --> 00:16:28,590
the hundred 99. Or they'll go on a
mission trip with a church, you know,

296
00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:32,350
or they'll go see their Aunt Becky
in, you know, five states away.

297
00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,550
And these are all classic
signs that they're trying to,

298
00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:37,510
to move away and avoid detection.

299
00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:38,870
You said the, uh,

300
00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:43,790
the age of the cases that cases
between 18 and 14 years old

301
00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:47,750
provide the best chance
of solving cold cases.

302
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:49,243
Why is that?

303
00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:52,830
Yeah, there, the older the case,
the harder it is to solve. You know,

304
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:56,470
now with the advent of, of forensic
investigative genetic genealogy,

305
00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:58,110
that's changing. However,

306
00:16:58,650 --> 00:17:01,910
the sweet spot for me is somewhere
between eight and 14 years.

307
00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:07,710
And the reason I think I have seen
more success with those cases is

308
00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:10,030
it's the maturation of
the suspects, right?

309
00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:15,100
A lot of murders are committed in
early in life, right? Late teens,

310
00:17:15,550 --> 00:17:19,500
early twenties, then the people go
on, they get married, they have kids,

311
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,820
and think of how much
differently you think, Robert,

312
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:27,660
today than when you were say 40 and
how much different when you were 30

313
00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:30,220
than what you thought
when you were 40, right?

314
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,900
And how much mature you were at 25 than
you were at 18. And and so I think,

315
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,180
you know, for me, those
are the sweet spots that I,

316
00:17:38,340 --> 00:17:40,140
I think the most success has come from.

317
00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:43,780
Because if you're able to create
that rapport with the suspects,

318
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:45,620
you have to be careful though,

319
00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:50,540
because if you go too long with a suspect
and they become grandparents, man,

320
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:51,040
it can get,

321
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,740
it can be very difficult to
get grandparents to confess
once the grandchild has

322
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,500
been born. And it's the
same with parents, you know,

323
00:17:57,890 --> 00:18:02,260
it's harder to get suspects to confess
that have smaller children than middle

324
00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:06,460
school or high school children, you
know, because it just is what it is. Hey,

325
00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:10,460
you know, in building that rapport,
those natural obstacles of, Hey, I,

326
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:14,420
I gotta take care of my kid. Uh, I
know this may sound strange, you know,

327
00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:18,020
for a homicide discussion, but, but
these are dead on. And I, and I can,

328
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,140
you know, I can tell you I've seen
it time and time over the years.

329
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,580
You know, one of the things I've seen
in my career, even with serial killers,

330
00:18:25,410 --> 00:18:28,580
they confide in somebody
that they've murdered

331
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:31,970
in a cold case.

332
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,740
Do you find the passage of time and the
changing of relationships then will help

333
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:37,130
you?

334
00:18:37,130 --> 00:18:41,900
Yeah. So that's one of the three pillars
of cold case work. Number one is time.

335
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,300
The passage of time. As I said earlier,
if you don't solve a case 48, 72 hours,

336
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:50,180
they, they tend to go cold.
We have to turn what was, uh,

337
00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:55,020
basically our nemesis of time. We
have to turn that into an ally, right?

338
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,660
So we have to turn that liability
of time into an ally for us.

339
00:18:59,420 --> 00:19:02,180
A lot of that is with the
changing relationships.

340
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,740
And so we have to find those old
ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends,

341
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,700
ex roommates. And as you said
in your introduction there,

342
00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:16,820
they tell someone in the vast majority
of cold cases that are closed, Robert,

343
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,540
the suspect has told at least
one person, they did the murder.

344
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:24,220
A lot of times this is okay, they
were out of the picnic table,

345
00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:27,580
they had been drinking all night, and
they tell their their next door neighbor,

346
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,500
oh, yeah, you know, 15 years ago, I, oh,
I, I killed that girl. You know? And,

347
00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:35,710
and then the person doesn't believe
him, right? Oh, they were just drinking.

348
00:19:35,710 --> 00:19:37,630
They were spouting off, they were
trying to look cool. You know,

349
00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:39,030
we were talking about cop shows. And,

350
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:44,190
and so sometimes it's discarded
by the witness as not being

351
00:19:44,190 --> 00:19:47,630
believable or truthful
when in fact it it is.

352
00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:51,990
And this is also part of that coping
mechanism that a lot of killers will take

353
00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:55,550
on, you know, of, of clearing their
conscious or, or talking about it.

354
00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:59,030
But what you just said is,
is that's what we're after,

355
00:19:59,050 --> 00:20:03,910
is those relationships changing and it
is the number one thing that we have to

356
00:20:03,910 --> 00:20:07,550
find. And and I I'll tell you, as
you talk to cold case investigators,

357
00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:10,390
they'll tell you, oh yeah, he
told his sister, he told his aunt,

358
00:20:10,410 --> 00:20:13,410
he told his brother, I,
I know we did a case,

359
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:15,570
it was a cold case where a guy had,

360
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:19,490
had killed his girlfriend
before he entered the US Navy.

361
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:24,330
And this case it was back in the
seventies, and it was down in Florida.

362
00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:27,010
And, uh, we ran this as, I don't know,

363
00:20:27,370 --> 00:20:31,490
probably one of the first dozen cold
cases we worked at N C I S. And so,

364
00:20:31,670 --> 00:20:35,610
you know, after he kills the
girl, he tells his brother,

365
00:20:35,670 --> 00:20:37,850
and it's like two or three
years after the murder,

366
00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:40,050
and of course he's already
went into the military,

367
00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:43,810
and then it's 20 years before we get to
him, right from the date of the murder.

368
00:20:43,870 --> 00:20:48,420
And so during the confession, Hey, did
you tell anybody? Yes, I told my brother.

369
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,140
And he had, he also had told an
attorney, you know, but he says, Hey,

370
00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:55,740
those are the two people that I've told,
when did you tell your brother? Well,

371
00:20:55,740 --> 00:20:59,220
I told him three years after. And,
and these are just some examples.

372
00:20:59,220 --> 00:21:01,660
They always tell somebody,
Robert, to cope, you.

373
00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:03,980
Know, one of the things in
your book you advise, uh,

374
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:08,580
cold case detectives to do is pay to
careful attention to the first 10 to

375
00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:10,100
15% of the case file.

376
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,740
Yes, sir. The reason we do
that, Robert, is research.

377
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,340
And there's been several folks
that have done the research,

378
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:20,940
whether it was Robert Keppel out on the
West Coast or you know, Roy Hazelwood,

379
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,900
who he's recently passed
away, but in terms of a,

380
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,260
the suspect's name surfacing in the file,

381
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,460
in about 95% of cold cases,

382
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,980
the suspect's name has come up. Someone
has introduced that name. Right.

383
00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:38,460
Whether it's a witness Yes. Or
a victim's family or whatever.

384
00:21:38,870 --> 00:21:42,220
Isn't that a crazy stat?
95% of the time. So,

385
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,940
and what I used to concentrate on was
the first 30 days of the investigation,

386
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,580
but I have ramped that down.

387
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:52,540
I think that name surfaces very
early first seven to 10 days,

388
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:57,060
first 10 to 15% of the case file. Maybe
they were in a neighborhood canvas.

389
00:21:57,270 --> 00:22:00,660
Maybe they were one of those service
industry folks that had, you know,

390
00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:04,700
delivered something to the house. Maybe
they have been the suspect all along,

391
00:22:04,750 --> 00:22:08,700
right? That that would, that would go
as well. So, but yes, they're, they're,

392
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:10,220
they're always surface early in the case.

393
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:14,300
We're gonna pause for a moment, uh,
for a message. And when we come back,

394
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:18,100
I wanna talk about cold case murders
that are staged to look like suicide.

395
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:32,990
I'm talking with Joe Kennedy,
the author of Solving Cold Cases,

396
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:35,190
investigation Techniques and Protocol,

397
00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:40,070
who spent years with the N C
I S started a co first federal

398
00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:43,550
cold case unit. You
talk about in your book,

399
00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:47,750
that cold case murder station
look like suicide are one of the,

400
00:22:47,810 --> 00:22:52,780
the most overlooked types of cold
cases in America. Why is that?

401
00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:57,980
I think so, Robert, you know, sometimes
it's a mindset. We respond to a scene,

402
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,140
you know, on a Friday afternoon,

403
00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:04,220
it's three o'clock and it
appears to be a suicide.

404
00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:07,250
I I will tell you that, you know,

405
00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:11,930
this is kind of one of my pet peeves of
if there was a call for assistance in a

406
00:23:11,930 --> 00:23:14,850
triplex murder, every police officer in
that department's gonna be on the scene.

407
00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:18,860
Right? But if that call, let's say
somebody says, yeah, we're out here,

408
00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:22,020
it looks to be a self-inflicted gunshot
wound and it's three o'clock on a

409
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:25,700
Friday, how many people are gonna
want to just rush over to that scene?

410
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,300
And so I think it's an
improper response to the scene,

411
00:23:30,270 --> 00:23:34,730
or we're assuming the suicide
position. Does that make sense? Right.

412
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:36,850
There was a, there's a,
there's a well-known, uh,

413
00:23:37,010 --> 00:23:40,650
homicide investigator who's just
done tremendous amount of work for,

414
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:43,890
for all detectives in the
country. His name's Vern Giber,

415
00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:47,980
and he was with N Y P D. And he,
he actually does a, a little, uh,

416
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:53,020
a segment on staged, uh, suicides. And
these are a couple of other things.

417
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,860
And, you know, as assuming the
suicide position, improper response,

418
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:01,300
not considering victimology, right?
Not putting enough emphasis on hey,

419
00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:06,300
because what you'll typically find with
suicide is there's often some mental

420
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,180
illness, right? Depression, anxiety,

421
00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:13,060
those are things that you should
certainly be seeing, you know,

422
00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:15,220
did that raise to the
level of where, you know,

423
00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:18,500
some type of medication was needed to
treat, needed to treat the patient or not?

424
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,820
But, you know, sometimes that's
overlooked. Hey, look, this person's dead,

425
00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:26,900
but there's not a clear indication in
their life they've ever had any kind of

426
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:29,540
depression, anxiety, or
mental illness issues.

427
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,100
And that you're gonna find those are,
those are synonymous with suicide.

428
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,580
You know, when you look at the,

429
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,900
the number of the backlog of
cold cases in the United States,

430
00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:41,220
a lot of people have
gotten away with murder.

431
00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:44,780
Yeah, it's Robert, it's,
it's about two 80. You know,

432
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:48,940
that's my research and my stats. You
know, the FBI might would argue that it,

433
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,660
you know, getting it down to 2
50, 2 60 something in there, but,

434
00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:57,420
but I know those Allison, yeah.
Yeah. 280,000. It's hard. I,

435
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:02,380
I use these stats a lot. In one,
in five cold cases, will we get a,

436
00:25:02,540 --> 00:25:04,820
a discernible suspect, right? Like a,

437
00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:09,860
a clearly identifiable suspect
in one of 20 of those will a

438
00:25:09,860 --> 00:25:11,660
prosecutor bring forth charges,

439
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,980
but only in about a one in 100 of
those will the cases be successfully

440
00:25:15,980 --> 00:25:18,330
prosecuted. Now,

441
00:25:18,330 --> 00:25:23,130
you'll see that with forensic
investigative genetic
genealogy that's finding

442
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:24,690
some of those ghost suspects.

443
00:25:24,830 --> 00:25:28,530
Not that it's not still identifying
suspects that are listed in a file,

444
00:25:29,270 --> 00:25:32,370
but it's very good for when
you don't have those, you know,

445
00:25:32,370 --> 00:25:36,250
that 5% of cases where they're not
in the file somewhere to, you know,

446
00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:40,850
to kind of have some focus put on them.
But yeah, that's, you know, it's a,

447
00:25:40,850 --> 00:25:43,050
it's a staggering number
when you think about it.

448
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,450
When you think about forensic
investigative genetic genealogy,

449
00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:50,170
and I may be off on this number,
but since the Golden State Killer,

450
00:25:50,370 --> 00:25:55,210
I think there's only been about
a thousand solves in there. So,

451
00:25:55,210 --> 00:25:59,250
you know, when you think that's five
years since Golden State and, and it,

452
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:01,970
there's just not enough resources.
We don't have enough, you know,

453
00:26:02,210 --> 00:26:06,010
forensic genealogists, I know Texas
has done some really good stuff.

454
00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:09,050
I have partnered with Rudy
Flores, an old ranger out there,

455
00:26:09,050 --> 00:26:10,570
is now the sheriff in
Anderson County, and,

456
00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:13,450
and came out and done some cold
case training for him in the past.

457
00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:17,050
And I know the Texas Rangers do a
really great job with their cold cases.

458
00:26:17,230 --> 00:26:20,730
And I know the city of Houston's doing
some stuff and the attorney general's

459
00:26:20,730 --> 00:26:23,770
office. So I think in Texas,
you folks are, you know,

460
00:26:23,770 --> 00:26:26,610
you're probably hitting it out of the
park, but there's some other states where,

461
00:26:26,910 --> 00:26:30,130
you know, the, the, the emphasis
is just not there on cold cases.

462
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,050
Well, the Fort Worth
Cold Case unit, you know,

463
00:26:33,250 --> 00:26:37,730
they had a big breakthrough using
the forensic investigative genetic

464
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:42,410
genealogy, uh, with a case
called about Carla Walker.

465
00:26:42,550 --> 00:26:45,940
Our listeners, uh, I'll put a
note in the show notes of link,

466
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,500
how you can go back and hear that episode
with the detectives. But in that case,

467
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,900
you know, she was in high
school with a date leaving,

468
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,020
it had been a Valentine's dance and all,

469
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,940
and was abducted a guy pistol
whipped her boyfriend and took her,

470
00:27:00,940 --> 00:27:04,460
and she was later found at
another location, raped, murdered.

471
00:27:05,770 --> 00:27:09,170
Interestingly, the suspect's
name was in the case file,

472
00:27:10,110 --> 00:27:12,090
and he lived about three
blocks away from her.

473
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:13,353
Yeah.

474
00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:15,010
And you talk about, you know,

475
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,530
cold case pri that crime is
both geographic and intentional.

476
00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:24,960
Yes. Yeah. And, and what we mean
about geographic is, you know, to,

477
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:29,000
to your point, the
suspect's work live or play,

478
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,960
and when I use the word play, we
can intercept recreation, right,

479
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,000
right near the victim.

480
00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:37,680
And there's something causing
their paths to connect.

481
00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:40,040
And if you just look at where they live,

482
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,480
you'll find that a lot of folks that
commit murder, particularly if it's an,

483
00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:46,480
if it's a disorganized murder,
you know, not real sophisticated,

484
00:27:47,110 --> 00:27:50,840
they almost always live very
close by, or work very close by.

485
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:54,920
If you get a little bit more sophisticated
offender, you'll see after maybe,

486
00:27:55,050 --> 00:27:58,280
maybe they've killed multiple
people after the first kill,

487
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,600
they'll tend to move
further away, right? We,

488
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:04,520
we commit crime where we feel
familiar, right? Even as, as kids,

489
00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:08,960
when we're teenagers and we do, you
know, mischievous stuff, you know,

490
00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:12,360
we do it where we feel comfortable until
the little old lady down the street

491
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:16,160
that knows us by our name turns us
into our parents, and then we go, Ooh,

492
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,440
we can't do our shenanigans out here.
We've gotta move to the next block over.

493
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,440
Right? That's kind of how it
works with, with murder as well.

494
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,740
And you really wanna try
to keep the focus on the

495
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:29,470
suspect. And you,

496
00:28:29,530 --> 00:28:34,390
you talked about all these
relationships or just crossing paths.

497
00:28:36,250 --> 00:28:40,440
Again, if you're just focused
on a suspect, though, case Oh,

498
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,240
crossing so many paths, it's, you
gotta get back to the evidence.

499
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:48,200
You, you, you really do, Robert. I
am. I don't follow suspects in a case,

500
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,120
you know, and one thing that I
try to teach, you know, I do a,

501
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,160
I do a two day cold case class
all, all around the country, is,

502
00:28:55,180 --> 00:29:00,000
is that don't follow a suspect. And,
and to hot homicide investigators,

503
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:04,040
you know, listen, don't let somebody
tell you who they think is the suspect.

504
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:07,760
Don't let the first responders tell you
what they found when they got to the

505
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,800
scene. Go in and look at the scene,
evaluate it for yourself, right?

506
00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:17,520
And don't let you know some type of
confirmation bias go on or group think or

507
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,480
something like that. And I think that's
what sometimes can happen or creep in.

508
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:24,960
But if you follow the evidence, it's
always gonna take you to the right place.

509
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:27,000
If you follow suspects,

510
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,840
a lot of times it's gonna take you on
detours that you don't need to take.

511
00:29:32,030 --> 00:29:36,210
You know, so the clearance rate
for murder 50 years ago was 90%.

512
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:40,530
Now the FBI says, more
recently it's down to 64.1%.

513
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:41,970
What's.

514
00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:44,930
Happened? Well, I, you know, one of
those things is bystander behavior.

515
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:47,890
People will not cooperate with
the police like they used to.

516
00:29:48,550 --> 00:29:51,530
We do have a little bit of
a mobile society, right?

517
00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:55,570
You will see that periods of social
unrest will increase, you know,

518
00:29:55,570 --> 00:29:58,170
the inability to solve
cases. We saw that in the,

519
00:29:58,350 --> 00:30:00,810
in the early nineties
with the, you know, the,

520
00:30:00,990 --> 00:30:02,850
the Rodney King case in California,

521
00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:06,690
and then you see it resurface again
here during the pandemic with the

522
00:30:06,690 --> 00:30:11,450
George Floyd. So people aren't as
inclined to cooperate with the police,

523
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:16,610
but that has an effect, you know, as
to, as to why cases don't get closed. I,

524
00:30:16,690 --> 00:30:19,850
I will say this, I think right
now in the United States,

525
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:21,490
these are the two things that I see.

526
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:25,130
I don't care where I'm at working or
looking at a case and I helping, you know,

527
00:30:25,130 --> 00:30:27,290
you name the state I've
done helped on cases there,

528
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,330
there's an overreliance on dna.

529
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:34,170
A and we've gotten away from the gumshoe
detective work of building rapport,

530
00:30:34,910 --> 00:30:35,490
you know,

531
00:30:35,490 --> 00:30:40,170
spending lots of time with
witnesses in interview rooms and,

532
00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:42,250
you know, and timelines, right? This,

533
00:30:42,250 --> 00:30:45,890
this is an old school technique of
can I put the person there? Yeah,

534
00:30:45,890 --> 00:30:48,050
I can put 'em on a camera. Yeah,
I can put their phone there.

535
00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:53,130
But can we narrow down that timeline
to seal them in to that murder scene to

536
00:30:53,130 --> 00:30:55,010
where it couldn't be nobody else, right?

537
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,290
Sometimes you have to use
negative evidence to prove a case.

538
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,850
Like I'm proving nobody
else could have done it.

539
00:31:00,850 --> 00:31:05,490
So it had to be you instead of starting
out that it has to be you, right?

540
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,530
Because you don't want them
to, you know, I always,

541
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,570
there's an old song called Wasn't Me
right Back from the nineties, you know,

542
00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:15,290
you don't want 'em saying it wasn't me,
and then they can prove it wasn't them.

543
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:18,930
But I, I think we have a
tremendous overreliance on,

544
00:31:19,070 --> 00:31:21,210
on D n A and technology,

545
00:31:21,550 --> 00:31:26,090
and we need to spend more time with
this old gum sh gumshoe techniques of

546
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,330
rapport based interviews, spending long
period of time with critical witnesses,

547
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,330
long periods of time with
suspects to gain their trust.

548
00:31:34,350 --> 00:31:38,010
So they will confess to us and tell us
they did it. This is the success of,

549
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:40,770
of cold case investigators. They
have to have three things, right?

550
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,020
They have to have compassion
for people. Like, we wanna know,

551
00:31:45,020 --> 00:31:49,340
does our boss like us, or does somebody
like me? People know if you're,

552
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,540
if you're full of prunes, they can
sense it. They can spot a fault,

553
00:31:52,860 --> 00:31:56,980
a fraud immediately. So
are you compassionate with
people? The second thing,

554
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,520
or the second C word that I use is
competent. Do you know what you're doing?

555
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:03,000
You know, even victims',

556
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,760
families know the cops that
don't know what they're doing.

557
00:32:04,990 --> 00:32:07,960
They're not competent. They're not
technically skilled at what they do.

558
00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:13,400
And then the last thing is, is, is
character, right? A person's character.

559
00:32:13,980 --> 00:32:17,910
And that comes to can they trust
you? And so not only victim's,

560
00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:21,030
families want to know that you've got
compassion and that you're competent and

561
00:32:21,030 --> 00:32:24,070
that you've got character, but do you
know that's what the suspects wanna know?

562
00:32:24,250 --> 00:32:28,270
And they can see it immediately,
oh, this guy, he does okay,

563
00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:31,230
even though he is got a job to do,
he's treating me like another human.

564
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:35,190
I think he knows what the hell
he's doing because he's act,

565
00:32:35,190 --> 00:32:38,070
he's not acting like the normal cops
do. And that's what I like to, you know,

566
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:41,740
don't act like the police. But then
la lastly is, can they trust you?

567
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,980
That's the hardest one.

568
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:47,110
I don't think you should ever have to
lie to a suspect in an interview, right?

569
00:32:47,230 --> 00:32:50,470
I mean, you create rapport, get 'em to
trust you and say, Hey, look, we gotta,

570
00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:51,350
we gotta get there.

571
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,070
Touch the power of touch in those
interviews is so important. Robert,

572
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,233
think about this.

573
00:32:57,690 --> 00:33:01,270
Do you know 85% of the US prison
population comes from a single parent?

574
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,020
Now many people grow up with single
parents and turn out just fine and great,

575
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,960
do great stuff. Think of that. That is
a huge number. And when you look at it,

576
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,080
a lot of folks that commit crimes,
they lacked positive affirmation.

577
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:17,960
They lacked role models in
their life, whatever that is,

578
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,960
whether it's a mother or a father. And
so I think that's where it c to me,

579
00:33:22,580 --> 00:33:26,320
you know, I think my parents
taught me everybody is the same.

580
00:33:26,660 --> 00:33:30,000
It doesn't matter the color of a person,
it doesn't matter their income level.

581
00:33:30,140 --> 00:33:33,120
It doesn't matter what if they've done
something good to you or bad to you.

582
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:35,960
You treat people the way you
wanna be treated, period.

583
00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:37,760
And that's the way I try to investigate.

584
00:33:37,990 --> 00:33:40,760
With N C I S. You worked
cases all over the world.

585
00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:46,120
Do you find that when it comes to
murder? It's, it's the same everywhere.

586
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:51,390
Robert. It is the same everywhere.
You know, they're shooting, stabbing,

587
00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:55,790
and beating 'em to death, whether it's
here, whether it's cart, HANA, Columbia,

588
00:33:55,940 --> 00:34:00,670
whether it's in, uh, Manila,
in the Philippines. It,

589
00:34:00,670 --> 00:34:05,470
it's all the same. You'll see that
in countries where there's not a,

590
00:34:06,030 --> 00:34:10,950
a huge access to firearms, there's just
more stabbing deaths. I mean, think of,

591
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,110
let's use France for an example
right now, crackdown on guns.

592
00:34:14,450 --> 00:34:17,630
You'll see the sharp instrument.
Murders are up, you know,

593
00:34:17,630 --> 00:34:21,350
tremendously the same in London.
But I will say, you know,

594
00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:24,030
when we talk about the
difference that I see,

595
00:34:24,700 --> 00:34:29,470
take me to a country like the
Philippines, Argentina, Columbia,

596
00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:34,910
Honduras. What you see from detectives
there is, they don't have any resources.

597
00:34:35,420 --> 00:34:38,710
They don't have the dna, they don't have
the crime labs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

598
00:34:38,890 --> 00:34:43,030
So they have to solve cases like
those old gumshoe detectives,

599
00:34:43,650 --> 00:34:46,910
and they build rapport
with witnesses, victims,

600
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:50,590
ultimately the suspects. And
that's how they solve the cases,

601
00:34:51,140 --> 00:34:52,270
what they lack in science,

602
00:34:52,270 --> 00:34:56,870
they make up for in street smarts
and tenacity and persistence.

603
00:34:57,090 --> 00:34:59,110
And that's, that's what it
takes to get a case closed.

604
00:34:59,690 --> 00:35:01,390
Not everybody can do a cold case, Robert,

605
00:35:02,460 --> 00:35:04,830
there's some detectives just do not
cut out for it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

606
00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:09,270
because there's a lot of hurry up and
wait. There's a whole lot of analysis.

607
00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:13,750
There's a whole lot of patience.
And it is truly, you know,

608
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:17,950
if you think about this is the difference,
I I sometimes make this analogy is,

609
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:20,830
I think working a homicide can
sometimes be like checkers,

610
00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:25,950
but working a cold case is more like
playing chess or time chess even.

611
00:35:26,210 --> 00:35:29,750
Do you ever find yourself wondering
about the human condition with all the

612
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:31,470
interrogations you've done?

613
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:36,070
I have just sitting in prison across
from serial killers, mass killers,

614
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:40,100
and I've called it a, it's a journey into
darkness. I'm curious, what are your,

615
00:35:40,100 --> 00:35:44,260
what are your thoughts just about
the human species in doing this?

616
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,770
Yeah. Well, you know, you know, Robert,
I'm, I, I'm, I'm not critical. I mean,

617
00:35:50,090 --> 00:35:51,410
I think life is precious.

618
00:35:52,010 --> 00:35:56,130
I think any second we get on this
planet is a gift from God, right?

619
00:35:56,350 --> 00:35:59,530
And we never know when our number's
up. Well, you don't know your number.

620
00:35:59,670 --> 00:36:01,730
Our number could be up when we
get off this call. We don't know.

621
00:36:02,430 --> 00:36:04,050
But I think life is precious. And,

622
00:36:04,070 --> 00:36:08,570
and how I deal with it is I've
never brought it home with me. This,

623
00:36:08,570 --> 00:36:10,410
you might find this interesting, you know,

624
00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:14,770
I have worked murder cases all over the
world where all kind of crazy cases.

625
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:15,730
Do you know,

626
00:36:15,730 --> 00:36:19,730
I have never come home and told my wife
or my kids one thing about anything I've

627
00:36:19,730 --> 00:36:21,970
ever done on the job. They'll
tell you that, not once.

628
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:25,650
And the reason I do that is I just,
we have to compartmentalize it.

629
00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:29,810
So I'm just not affected by it, because
that's just what I've always done,

630
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:34,610
right? And so that's my work
life, and I leave it at work.

631
00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:37,770
And when I come home, hey,
we don't talk about it. Now,

632
00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:41,010
it doesn't mean I'm not laying on my
bed some nights thinking, oh gosh, what,

633
00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:43,890
what are we gonna do to solve this
case? How can we get this? Mm-hmm.

634
00:36:43,930 --> 00:36:46,210
<affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
because that happens quite often. I sure,

635
00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:50,010
I tell you, I got insomnia now. I'm
more than I've ever had, you know, so I,

636
00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:52,770
I routinely find myself up by
four o'clock in the morning,

637
00:36:52,770 --> 00:36:56,010
four 30 in the morning on my computer,
looking at a case, talking about a case,

638
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,650
sending a text about a case,
right? And people are like, yeah,

639
00:36:59,650 --> 00:37:01,410
you gonna keep sending me an
email at three in the morning?

640
00:37:01,470 --> 00:37:04,970
My little ringer goes off and I
wake, well, I'm sorry <laugh>,

641
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:08,810
you put the thing on silent. But I
think com compartmentalizing Robert,

642
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:12,410
is what I've been able to do to,
when you asked me that question. I,

643
00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:16,050
I really don't have an answer because,
you know, I don't try to cope with it.

644
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,330
I've just compartmentalize
it and, and move on.

645
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:20,850
And I'm not trying to seem like
a tough guy or anything. It just,

646
00:37:20,850 --> 00:37:21,690
it's just what I did.

647
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:25,690
Joe Kennedy, thank you very much. The
book, again, is Solving Cold Cases,

648
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:30,100
investigation Techniques, and
Protocol. Thank you so much,

649
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,980
and thanks for your work that you're
still out there working cases.

650
00:37:34,110 --> 00:37:38,190
Yeah. I'll be out here till I die,
Robert. Uh, I, I got too much anxiety.

651
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:40,870
If I don't have something to
do, I get anxiety. <laugh>.

652
00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:46,550
In closing, here's my reporters
recap and reflections.

653
00:37:48,010 --> 00:37:52,910
How remarkable is it that Joe Kennedy
and his colleagues are still on the

654
00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:57,670
job long after their official
retirement? In this time of defunded,

655
00:37:57,670 --> 00:38:01,710
police budgets, criminal investigators
need all the help they can get.

656
00:38:02,420 --> 00:38:06,190
Otherwise, we are all
on our own. Fortunately,

657
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,230
there is a dedicated group at the
Cold Case Coalition willing to serve

658
00:38:11,540 --> 00:38:13,310
good over evil.

659
00:38:14,570 --> 00:38:18,830
You've been listening to the True
Crime Reporter podcast. Stay true,

660
00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:19,970
stay safe,

661
00:38:19,970 --> 00:38:24,710
and stay tuned for more stories
from inside the crime Scene tape.

662
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:27,750
This is Robert Riggs reporting.