Criminals deposit physical evidence at crime scenes, fingerprints, D n a,
footprints, et cetera. But they also deposit their personality, right?
It's what they do. And so,
one of the things I'm always looking for at a crime scene,
and I preach this to the detectives I work with,
is we're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the
usual.
If you're a fan of the N C I S television drama, you are in for a retreat.
Joe Kennedy,
the homicide investigator you just heard was a veteran agent for the real
life, N C I S. Hello,
I'm investigative reporter Robert Riggs. In this episode of True Crime Reporter,
I lift up the crime scene tape for Joe Kennedy to take you inside the
Anatomy of Murder cases. This is the first of a two-part series.
Joe, you, you are in N C I S. Tell our listeners,
what does it do,
and is it in any way similar to what we see on the television show?
You know, Robert, uh, after the, after the first year of production, uh,
most of the cases were based on, you know, true crimes or,
or actual investigations. And then I think as the years went on,
Hollywood took a little liberty with, you know, and some theatrics. But,
you know, N C I S is interestingly, you know, federal law enforcement, uh,
a lot of people would be surprised to know it's, we're civilians.
We're not in the military. And we have the same job statuses like an fbi,
I D E A agent, a t f agent, you know, just a,
a criminal investigator for the federal government.
The one thing I think makes N C I S agents different is, you know,
some of the other federal agencies have one specific mission, like a T f,
you know, is looking for guns and fire and drug enforcement administration,
just drugs, you know, with N C I S,
it's more like being a big city detective every day because we work
any felony investigation that impacts the Department of Navy or Marine Corps,
uh, whether the person might be a victim or a suspect of a crime.
And so everything from murder to robbery to rape.
Yeah, absolutely. And you never know what the day is going to bring, you know,
in, in a, we have various field offices around the, the world. I've served in,
in many of those, uh, in different capacities. But, uh, you wake up,
you go to work thinking you're gonna do one thing, and, uh, you know,
that call for service comes in and you're doing something totally different.
How did you get started with N C I S?
Well, you, you know, Robert, I had, uh, I had started, uh,
my career with the state police agency here in North Carolina.
And I thought that's what I was gonna do. Uh,
about the time I had applied for that job,
I simultaneously had applied for N C I S I, I'm an old city kid from, uh,
high Point North Carolina. And when I say city kid, you know, it's a,
it's pretty much a, a just a what it is. And we make furniture there.
So I grew up not traveling very much. I'd played some college baseball, but,
you know,
those travels were basically the southeastern part of the United States.
And so it intrigued me.
I had met my wife in college and her dad owned a barbershop up in Northern
Virginia.
And so a couple of folks had come through that were agents that had retired
and told, you know, her about it. And of course, she told me,
and I was intrigued with the travel. And I'll never forget, you know,
when I first hired on, uh, the guy who I,
I have a lot of who did a really lot for my career, his name was Bob Johnson.
He was from Chicago. He was a former Arlington County detective in Arlington,
Virginia. But he showed me a picture of him in Hong Kong, you know,
looking down over Victoria's Peak. And I thought, man, how do you do that?
And he says, well, that's what you've gotten into . I didn't know that,
you know, that, that my career would take me to 106 countries, right?
Working everything from murders to robberies to assassinations of military
members, you know, et cetera.
Well, let's talk about, for starters here, the anatomy of murder.
Not a cold case, but active murder investigation.
What is it that makes a good homicide detective?
I tell you, Robert, it's a myriad of things. You know,
the first thing I'm looking for is common sense, right? And then tenacity,
but having patience as well.
It all comes down to the ability to talk to people and communicate with people
and connect with people. And I have this, this thing that I kinda, uh,
kind of deal with when I'm working a murder case. And that's,
I think you have to develop intimacy with the witnesses, the victims,
and the suspects, you know, whether it's a murder or any violent crime.
Because ultimately we're trying to get,
create intimacy to get people to trust us. So they'll tell us what they know.
And I think that's what I rely heavily on. You know,
there's only three ways to solve a murder, Robert.
We have to have an eyewitness. We have to have some physical evidence.
We have to get 'em to tell us the truth or confess, right?
And so I think a good homicide detective has to have a broad brush and
a lot of knowledge. I mean, folks,
I don't think realize how hard it is to be a good homicide detective because you
have to know so many different things.
When you look at murder,
what are the typical murder cases?
You would see it at a big city police department as well as N C I S.
Well, you know, that, that would run the gamut. You know,
that could be a domestic homicide, that could be a,
a very well planned homicide. It could be an accident.
It was never intended to be a murder. It could be another, uh,
crime plan that went wrong.
And this is what I would kind of try to share with you.
That may be a long answer, Robert,
but if you think about the number of burglaries and break-ins that are planned,
you know, that number's very high, right? Or robberies.
Those are very high numbers. What tends to happen is those are,
those turn into murders,
and one thing turns other crimes into a murder. And it is so simple,
but it's quite candidly the victim's response. You know,
the guy breaks into the house at night thinking that he's gonna, you know,
find an empty house.
Cuz he sat outside and watched what he thought was all the occupants leave,
right? And he's gonna go in and steal something.
He doesn't realize that the grandmother stayed behind, right?
And she's a feisty little old grandmother.
And so he just went to steal some things out of the house cuz maybe he's a,
a meth addict or, or on heroin or what have you.
And now all of a sudden this little old grandmother starts fighting him back and
he pushes her down and she falls and hits her head on the fireplace.
Obviously an intended break-in right burglary, but the murder was not. And,
and this is what I, this is where I'm, uh,
different than many homicide investigators is, I think a very,
very small percentage of murders are actually planned. Extremely small number.
And when you talk about, it's the reaction of the, uh, the victim, and,
and by the way,
is it usually a single perp and a single victim in murder cases?
Yes, sir. That's, that's almost, you know, that's the predominant source of,
of murder is it's, it's a single victim, single suspect.
So what would you say to a,
a person who in the middle of the night hear someone breaking into their house
or is, is confronted in a mugging? What do you say to the victim?
Of course,
here in Texas it's likely those the victim's gonna shoot somebody. But,
uh, what, what's the good advice you can give?
Well, I mean, I, you know, I,
I I think that's an individual choice that people are gonna make. Uh,
I will tell you, we have the same thing going on here in North Carolina.
We have something called the Castle doctrine. You know,
it's kinda like the stand your ground laws. Yes. I don't want people to,
to flee, right? Because you gotta protect yourself,
you gotta protect your family. But I think a lot of people, you know,
in today's day and age, things have changed very much. You know, in,
in years past we would not, okay, if you're defending yourself or your property,
no worries. But boy has that changed.
Well, any other, you talked about the elderly woman screaming.
What would be the other response so that it doesn't escalate?
Well, I, I think securing yourself in the house in a secure area, can you,
cuz most folks, they're gonna flee once they hear you. Mm-hmm. ,
right? Most folks are not in it for the confrontation. Ju just the opposite.
And, you know, confrontation is not good. I'm, I'm a, I I have concerns with,
with guns and people, you know, wanting concealed weapon permits and all that.
Cuz you better be ready to use that thing because ,
somebody might shove that gun down your throat. And I mean, I'm not trying to,
I know I'm getting off topic here a little bit with you, but, you know,
in terms of murder, I think a lot of murders happen that are total, I,
the other crimes are planned with the murders, not,
I was helping on a case Monday, I, I can't get too much into the particulars,
I'm here because it's an active investigation.
But detective called me and he said, Hey Joe, let me run some by ya.
We've been up about four days working his thing. And it was an,
it was an altercation between a husband and a wife.
And so the husband got angry and went and burned down a facility
that belonged to his wife's father. He did not know that there were some, uh,
occupants in that facility. It was a horse barn and one of 'em died.
The murder wasn't planned. The arson was, and I'm a little different Robert,
because I,
I think also one thing that a lot of detectives do is they try to follow a
motive. And I actually teach just the opposite. I don't want,
I don't want to know the, any motives as I do this case,
I wanna focus on what the evidence is telling me,
not what a potential motive might be.
Know that is very different. But by focusing on the evidence,
does that help you close a case faster?
I think it does, Robert. And it's starting to gain some steam and some momentum.
You know, I learned it from some old school homicide detectives back in the,
in the eighties and the nineties, late eighties, early nineties. That, you know,
it, it's okay to focus on motive, but motive is elusive.
And sometimes we're,
we think we're investigating the correct motive and we're not,
has nothing to do with why the person died.
So I like to just focus on the evidence. You know, one of the things I look at,
and this may sound, you know, quite simple, and it is,
is let's say I'm looking at a victim's body and all the wounds are on the right
side of that victim's body, right? Let's say it's a stabbing case and you see,
you know, a couple stab wounds, you know,
on the upper right arm and maybe in the elbow.
And maybe you see a stab wound on the, you know, the right thigh. Maybe,
you know, can we determine the handedness of that offender?
Is it truly a left-handed offender or is there, is there something else to it?
I see. And,
and can you get an example of a recent case that you worked where with the
evidence-based investigation, what a difference it made. I'll.
Give you another example. This is a case a couple of weeks ago and,
and I just have to be careful not to give you the right name of the case cuz
these are active cases, but Right.
I had another detective call me local jurisdiction.
He did a fantastic evidence-based investigation.
So the victim is dead and the body's been dumped in a particular location of the
town. And so as I went over and kind of interacted with him,
he wanted me to look through the crime scene photos. He did a really good job.
There was a very specific type of ammunition that was used, right? And,
and that was, that was recovered from the victim's body. So he just, you know,
quickly determined, okay, who shipped this ammunition to this town?
Right? Who sells it? You know, who's what, what firearms dealer has it?
And then from there, you know,
he was able to link that person who had bought it
to the same neighborhood that the victim was last seen in. Well, that's a great,
that's a great step, isn't it? Yes. Well then as we're looking at the photos,
I start noticing in the, the victim's boots,
there's a lot of little small pebbles and rocks.
And so instantaneously as we're sitting at his desk and I say, Hey, you know,
look, look at the, you see the boots is that, you know,
we may be able to do some soil analysis here.
And he is already clicking to the location of
where the individual who bought the ammunition,
and as he pulls the Google map street view up,
it is clearly here you see the small little pebbles in that driveway.
And then if you look through the rest of the neighborhood, you know,
they're paved concrete or there's no gravel at all. So it's like,
that's a great evidence-based investigation. And of course we're immediately,
he and I excited and we're getting in touch with a, you know, a soil expert at,
at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.
Well, you know, the difference I see it really is hard to determine a motive.
It just varies from person to person.
I can see the v value of the evidence response investigation.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and here's the thing, Robert,
this is what we have to think about.
We wanna be able to read a crime scene and then take what we read
from the crime scene into the interview room,
be able to create good enough rapport with the suspect to get them to confess.
And this is what I mean by that. Criminals deposit,
physical evidence at crime scenes, fingerprints, d n a, footprints, et cetera,
but they also deposit their personality, right? It's what they do.
And so, one of the things I'm always looking for at a crime scene,
and I preach this to the detectives I work with,
is we're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the
usual. So lemme say that again.
We're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the usual.
What's not here that should be here? What's here that shouldn't be here. Right?
And you kind of break it down. And,
and we have to focus on the personality because offenders will tell us what
they're doing at that scene. How long did they stay there, you know,
did they ransack the house? Did they feel, is there forced entry?
Is there signs of a struggle? Keep in mind, the smaller the crime scene,
the more likely it's planned. You know, that's, and, and, and you have to, and,
and you can take that to the bank because that's almost always true, you know?
And so that's one thing I'm looking for very early in the case.
Are we dealing with a sophisticated offender or an unsophisticated offender?
A lot of people have maybe heard in the past the breaking down of a crime scene
if it's either organized or disorganized.
The disorganized being not as sophisticated,
the organized being a more sophisticated offender.
Yes. You study crime scene pictures.
What are you looking for when you study those pictures?
Robert, I'm looking for your myriad of things, as I said, mostly in the,
in the realm of the personality that's left behind is deposited.
So how long did the suspect remain at the scene?
What did they do while they were there? How comfortable were they were,
were they at the scene? You know, let me give you an example.
Here's a very obvious one. And, and, and I have, I use an example in the book,
but, uh,
if we go to a crime scene and we see the victim's faces covered with some
object, it likely indicates two things to us. Well,
the first is there's probably an interpersonal relationship,
or was an interpersonal relationship. The second thing is, is there's remorse,
right?
We know that historically and from empirical data and doing previous cases
and interviewing suspects that,
and what they do is they cover a face with what's readily available to them.
You won't find an offender, kill someone,
and then run through the house and grab something and come back and cover a
person's face. It's normally what's within arm's reach.
So let's say they kill 'em in the living room and there's a pillow from the
sofa, you know, maybe they pull that down. And, and again,
those are just some behavioral clues. Just a couple that would,
would give us some ideas of what's going on. Is the body naked?
Is the body clothed? Has, is, is there,
is there been any exploration of that body by the suspect? You know,
are there any of the traditional motives of robbery? Is it sexual in nature?
Is it revenge? Is there overkill on that body?
We're gonna pause for just a moment, and when we come back,
we'll pick up the conversation and talk more about victimology.
We're talking with Joe Kennedy,
a longtime homicide investigator with N C I S, who did a lot more than homicide.
He's written a book called Solving Cold Cases,
investigation Techniques and Protocol.
So we're talking victimology and what you look at in the victim to try to help
determine who the perpetrator was.
Are the majority of victims killed by somebody they know or crossed paths with?
Yes, Robert? I, I would, I would say that nine out of 10 homicide victims,
there is some type of interpersonal relationship before that person
is killed. Now, how long is that relationship? That could be years,
that could be months, that could be weeks, it could be days in some occasions,
right? Where maybe let, let's say you got a suspect who, who sees a,
a young lady move into the new apartment complex and he'd befriend or in the
parking lot and, you know,
that goes on for two or three days and then he reads the wrong signals.
You know,
she's already got a boyfriend and then he decides to go back and rape and kill
her, right? I mean, in his mind,
maybe there was a relationship in her mind there wasn't. But, uh,
one thing with victimology, I want, i I want to kind of get across hopefully,
that your, your viewers would appreciate is this is when, when a person is,
is found dead,
what we typically do in American law enforcement is we work backwards from the
point the person's person's found dead until we, you know, okay,
we found her here in her apartment this morning. What did she do last night?
Who was she with yesterday at lunch? What did she do yesterday day,
morning when she went to work?
And what I try to preach is I don't wanna focus on the past,
I wanna focus on the future, Robert,
I've found that about half of murders occur because of a futuristic event,
not the past. And what I mean by that is, is,
is is simply that if you look into the future,
if that person did not die this morning, where would they be 36 hours from now?
Where would they be tomorrow night? And what I mean, and, and,
and I'll give you an example. So let's say you have, uh,
a couple that gets married. They have a couple kids,
and then they end up getting divorced, right? Uh,
the husband is still very upset over the relationship. And, and then he,
there's joint custody of the kids.
And so he's just had the kids for the past weekend,
but his ex-wife comes to him on Monday and says, Hey, look,
I need you to watch the kids again this coming week. And he's like,
wait a minute. It's not my turn. But she, she gives him an excuse why?
And he says, okay, I'll, I'll take the kids again.
And then he finds out Wednesday morning that the reason she wants him to take
the kids is she's going out on a date with her new boyfriend. So he goes into,
you know, a fit of rage, he calls demands to meet his wife. And she says, okay,
I'll meet you. And so they meet, and during that meeting,
he loses his temper and stabs her to death. Well,
she died because of what was gonna happen on Friday night, right?
Not on Wednesday. It was a futuristic event. I know this may seem strange,
but the future is very predictive of,
of what can happen and what does happen to murder victim where they,
if they didn't die today, because victim selection is important too. Right?
And you have to think about, you know, if I gave you, what,
what risks did the victim take to put themselves in an environment that got them
killed? Let me give you an example.
A prostitute in the inner city of New York right?
Knows how to operate in that environment.
But let's say you take a suburban housewife
who just happens to be, you know,
engaged in a illegitimate relationship with a boyfriend even though she's
married, right? And so she decides to meet her boyfriend at this low end hotel,
that crime plague neighborhood. She does not know how to operate, right?
So when you think about the risk at her house, she's a very low risk victim.
But when she puts herself in a, an environment,
now she's a very high risk victim. Whereas if you think of that prostitute,
she was never a high risk victim because she knows how to operate within that
environment all along. Does that make sense?
Yes. Yes. You know, one of the things you point out in the book,
and the public doesn't really understand this cause they'll see these crimes and
we're like, this makes no sense.
But you talk about criminals think differently than we do.
Yes. Would you expound on that? Yes.
One thing, we're not chasing monsters. A lot of people make that mistake.
What I mean is they're most criminals are street smart. Okay? And,
and that's just what it means. I mean, they know how to move around.
They know how to manipulate people.
You have to think about how they gain control of their victims, many suspects,
right? Right.
They use either a ruse con trick or some kind of surprise to
lure their victims into a sense of false sense of security. The con is the most,
you know, use method.
And then there are offenders who just use some type of blitz attack. You know,
it's very unsophisticated, you know, and, and again,
that's what I'm talking about at a scene. You know,
if we go to a scene and we see signs of a struggle and, you know,
couches are turned over, furniture's turned over,
it doesn't look like it was very well planned. Right?
Or you go to a pristine scene where the victim's just laying there.
I I looked at a case this week, uh, with a retired FBI agent, and,
and we were looking at a case he had, he had sent up and put on, we've got a,
uh, computer system we use. So we can look at the scenes virtually now.
And you know, I'm looking at this scene going, man,
this gal's just laying in her kitchen floor and there is nothing disturbed.
You know, whoever gained access. And then you look outside and there's snow,
there is lots of snow on the ground. And so you're thinking, wow,
they had to have, you know, not like they just busted in here. They,
she had to have known them. You know, it's pretty clear there,
there's some intimacy going on in that relationship.
So then are you looking for
evidence of who she's been seeing, who was in the neighborhood?
That sort of thing.
I just wanna talk to you about five things here real quickly, Robert.
I think this'll, and I'm gonna reel these off pretty fast,
but there's five things that have to be done immediately at a murder scene,
right? The first thing is we have to listen to the 9 1 1 call. Okay? What,
what's, what did they, what was first reported to police? And get an idea. Okay,
who's, who in the zoo, right? Who are we, what are we responding to?
And who are they victimology is, is a component of that.
And then we have to start doing criminal history checks. You know,
if who are the, and, and when we go to a scene, I, like,
I look at a scene as like going to a play, right? And,
and you have characters in a plot in every crime scene mm-hmm. .
And so why are they telling me the story, the way they're telling me the story?
Why are they trying to spin it to put themselves in a positive light or maybe
blame the victim or whatever that might be. There's always the ulterior motives.
And then the second thing we have to get on the scene after we start trying to
figure out who our victim is, is, you know, obviously in today's day and age,
we're looking for surveillance cameras. Whether that's a ring doorbell,
whether that's the local convenience store, you know,
that's followed up by electronic communications. And that's the phones, right?
That's, you cannot go anywhere without being put on that phone.
And then the second thing is, we know that of a lot of offenders,
after they commit a murder, they start Googling, how do I get away with murder?
How do I get rid of a body? How long does DNA last on a door? Knb, you know,
all these things. And then a,
a very comprehensive neighborhood canvas is the four step.
And that's where you have got to take your time.
You gotta be patient and methodically go through every person that could have
seen the smallest little detail,
and then the fifthly as we focus on the flight paths and escape routes,
you know, because if they come in, they gotta leave. Um,
and all that time we have to build intimacy. It's so tough today, Robert,
because bystander behavior has changed so much in the last 30 years. You know,
when I started working murders in the late eighties, you know,
bystanders would help you, neighbors would tell you what they knew.
That's not the case today.
That's why we have to spend so much time with witnesses.
And one of the big mistakes that's made often is we can't talk to the potential
witnesses and neighbors in the neighborhood where a crime happened because
everybody's watching. And if they start talking to the police, it's like, okay,
we're gonna get you. Or you're a snitch or you're a rat. Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm. .
And so we have to come up with creative ways to,
to interview witnesses in non-traditional environments outside of the crime
scene.
Do you find this same difficulty in middle class or upscale neighborhoods?
You, you know, you do. It's funny when you have middle class or upscale murders,
and, and I think you can take this to the bank, Robert,
it's often the victim has placed themselves in an environment that they were not
familiar with.
The kind of like the example I shared with you with the a a a wife, you know,
having a mm-hmm. meeting with a, with a boyfriend,
middle class and, and affluent people. They limit their movement by choice.
I want you to think about this. In other words,
they have to live in a certain place. They have to stay at the country club.
They, they only drive a certain car,
so they get their oil changed to the dealership, right? You,
you see where I'm going with this, right? And, but,
but here's the thing that I want to, that,
that I pay a bunch of attention to in a homicide is I'm convinced that all
murders are geographic. And so there's a connection of where people work,
live or play. And when I say play recreation,
that could be everything from going to church on Wednesday night to going to the
bar to have a few beers on Wednesday night. But what I do is I draw a triangle.
I draw two triangles when I get on the scene,
the first triangle's for the victim. And at each point of the triangle,
I put work, live, play, work, live, play for potential suspects.
So how, where was the connection? Where did this relationship cross over at?
I will tell you, you know, let's take some cities.
Like I'm just gonna throw out Houston, right?
Because I know that's a big city in Texas or, or Dallas. You know,
those homicide detectives, they're gonna solve their cases blocks away,
right? From the crime scene.
And what I mean is because those victims and those suspects,
their movement is restricted based, based on socioeconomics. They have to walk,
they have to take public transportation.
They might have a bicycle or they have a car that's shared by a lot of people,
right? If I'm in a more rural setting,
like let's say out in the mesquite area or beyond mesquite, you know,
Will's point or something out there, then what we're talking about is miles.
And in rural settings,
I still should come across my suspect then about four miles of the crime scene.
Mm-hmm. in urban or densely populated cities.
I should come across my suspect by the eighth block.
I don't wanna go more in about 12 blocks, cuz then I'm just fishing.
The other thing that I don't think we, that,
that sometimes hijacks cases is crime stoppers
well-intentioned to go out and, Hey, we got a tip. Somebody called in,
heard somebody talking about this murder.
If that comes in about a week after the murder, I,
it's not that I'm gonna ignore it, but I'm not gonna put as much weight in it.
You know, viable crime stopper tips that, that are initiated quickly or,
or immediately after the murder tend to produce more fruit than ones that come
in later in the investigation.
Why is that?
Well, what happens is, you know, a,
a week or two into a case now neighbors have started communicating with each
other. They've been interviewed by the police,
so they're sharing what they told the police. You know,
stories get discombobulated. I mean, you know,
the old thing where you may be whispering somebody's ear of a 30, 30 room,
first grade class, and by the time it gets to the back of the room,
it's a totally different, you know, version of what was whispered in the ear.
So I think it's, it becomes hearsay in rumors and innuendo, you know, later.
You know,
one of the things that surprised me in the book was to learn that two thirds of
the murders are committed outdoors.
Yes. Robert. That that is generally cor correct.
About two thirds happen outdoors, about a third indoors,
you'll see that we've got about a 10% better chance of solving cases in indoors.
And, and really that's the preservation of, of mostly DNA or fingerprints.
You know, DNA's enemy is sunlight and heat, two biggest enemies.
And so, you know, as we process those scenes, you know, and, and then you,
then you're dealing with degraded d n a as opposed to, you know,
some good d n a.
Well, in your work, what, I mean,
what kinds of murders did you see committed outdoors?
Every kind of murder shootings are very common.
Most of your shooting murders happen outdoors, stabbings. I mean, it,
it runs against blunt force trauma.
You're gonna find that oftentimes too movement of a body, right?
So did the body, did they die where they lie? Right? That's that's right. Right.
Sometimes you'll see that's less sophisticated or did the offender know I need
to move this body after I have, you know, killed them. So a lot of bodies are,
are dumped. Um, I was helping on a case here, uh,
what about two weeks ago where, you know,
the girls shot in the back of the head and it's very apparent, you know,
they take her to and dump her in this, in this park.
It's a very unique location.
It had to have been known by the offenders. And you know,
so when we find bodies outside, there's,
there's two things we have to immediately ask ourselves that the body is in an
area that was frequented by the suspect, I'm sorry,
frequented by the victim or known by the suspect or both. And you know,
in this case, I, I was looking at a few weeks ago, I mean, it's like,
oh my gosh. And, and the girls, you know, she's got on, um, it,
it's just undergarments, you know,
and she's obviously been dumped there and there doesn't look to be a sexual
component to it at all. I mean, she's dressed, she's clothed,
but it's probably some disagreement where she was shot.
And then they had to get the body, you know, from being to avoid detection.
And so they've taken it to this really remote location that only the offender
would ha you'd have to know exactly where you're going, uh, to put it there. Um,
and I mean, this is miles from any urban, you know, or, or,
or significant population. And so, you know,
those are the kind of things you might see in an outdoors murder. Um, and, and,
and then,
then you have to think what efforts were taken to consti conceal the body.
Was the body just dumped and abandoned or was, you know,
did they try to cover the body with some limbs or leaves or even bury the body
and that? And that gives us additional clues at scenes.
And then are you trying to look at certain kind of activities?
Maybe it's construction or something near there so you can start to, uh,
see who would've been going through the area.
Y Yeah. And I, I place a tremendous amount emphasis on the service industry,
Robert, when I'm doing my investigations, because, you know,
who had to come in and out of your crime scene perhaps for some service
industry function, right? They're, they're a gardener, they're a landscaper. Uh,
they're delivering natural gas. Um, you know, they're,
they're delivering Chinese food, pizza de you know,
who has come in and left your scene. Now, one of the,
one of the things that I find most interesting that I have found most
interesting in my career, and I think maybe your viewers would would as well,
is about half of the people who commit a murder go back to the scene before
the police get there.
Or they go and watch the police that they'll go back and watch us actually work
or do our job.
Is there a thrill for them? What is it? Or are they, are they think, uh,
I wanna see if they find something that might catch me or.
Yeah, I think the most of those folks returning to the scene, Robert,
is they're not playing murders, right? They plan to do the break in,
they plan to rob the girl, they plan to, you know, try to rape the, the girl,
but they didn't plan to do the murder. So they, it's, it's a,
they have to cope with it. Mm-hmm. .
And I will tell you that I've talked to a lot of folks who have committed murder
over the years, and they,
they say it's like they're almost in a trance after the murder.
They cannot control what they're doing. They cannot control their thoughts.
It's almost like they're just, you know, can't focus. And I think, you know,
if I had to put a technical term to it,
I think the neuron transmitters are probably out outta whack, you know,
as they as emotions enter that limbic system. And, and I think it's just,
you know, it's like overheating the engine. Oh my gosh, what have I done?
And so they'll go back to, to say, did I really do that?
And then I think the second thing is they want to avoid detection. So, um,
you'll find that people will also insert or interject themselves into the crime
scenes Yes. On purpose.
To show they're smarter than the police.
Or Well, they, they think, you know, hey, if I go, you know,
like let's say that there's a neighbor who,
who is responsible for the murder and,
and we knock on his door during the neighborhood canvas and he gives us a story
and he knows he's lying, but, but we don't know he's lying. Right? And,
you know,
we walk and continue doing more interviews and let's say we're out and about an
hour later he comes over and he says, Hey sir, you know,
when you were interviewing me a little while ago,
I forgot to tell you that I did see this strange blue truck the other night.
Can't remember, don't know much about it. You know,
I don't know the make or model, but it was a blue truck and I don't, you know,
I dunno if that helps you at all, but, but, but we did see one, right?
They're just trying to insert or interject to, to,
to try to learn more of what you might tell them. Uh, that's,
that's fairly common actually.
What are the challenges when it's a stranger on stranger murder? I,
serial killers?
Yeah. You know, Robert, that's a, that's a game changer.
It can be a game changer if you're doing a case and you know,
we have about those first 48, 72 hours and then, then it starts getting cold.
And let's say you're not connecting some dots, you're not, uh,
you don't have any interpersonal relationships that you've been able to identify
or, or any inter familial relationships. And, and let's say that, you know,
your trail's starting to go cold, so to say. Um,
because that does happen very fast in an investigation.
That's when you know you're not seeing any dots connecting. That's where,
you know mm-hmm. , there's no relationships.
Nobody can put 'em here at a specific time.
Nobody can say she was there at a certain time. That's really then where you,
where you start, you know, trying to come up with other, you know, creative,
you know, investigative techniques to maybe get, get on the right scent.
In closing, what did,
based on your experience of investigating this myriad of kind of cases,
what advice do you have for people to protect themselves or
be aware or not to end up as a murder victim?
Well, you, you know, I'm gonna use the example of my children. You know,
I have a daughter who's 34, a son who's 32. Robert,
I'm not one of these guys that ever came home and told them don't do something.
But they watched me through my whole life.
Like one of the things I always did was,
you never go to an ATM machine after dark, right?
You always park your car at the very end of the parking lot so that as you
walk, you can see everything. You sit, we sit on the back row at church ,
right? I mean, so that you can observe right?
In your observant and your head is always on a swivel. Now,
I never sat down and had that conversation with my kids, but they,
and it's funny, within the last couple years, they've both come to me, you know,
and my son, we go to an go to, go to get ready to go to an atm and he is like,
dad, it's getting ready to get dark. We remember we can't. And I went, wow.
And I was like, it, it hit me that, you know, they just watched me. But that's,
that's what I would say is, you know,
not that I'm trying to make you the police or, you know, be, be, you know,
scared of everything cuz that's not what life's about, right?
We wanna enjoy life, but you should always be aware of your surroundings.
And this is what I tell everybody that does investigations as a,
as an investigator, you should doubt everything. Doubt leads to inquiry,
inquiry leads to the truth.
And if you have something in your gut that tells you something's not right,
trust your gut.
You do see these cases where the husband is murdered the wife,
but he's out crying and acting innocent and help us.
He goes public. How do you separate or,
or what do you see that tips you off? It's not the truth.
Well, some of it is non-verbal behavior, Robert. So,
you know those clues that are non-verbal. So they're saying one thing,
but they're, they're non-verbals telling us something completely different.
You'll see that once in a while, they'll,
they'll slip up and use passive language that's inappropriate, right? Like,
wait a minute, why did you use that? Because she's just missing right now.
Why did you tell us she was a great person and we haven't found her body yet?
Right? It was reported as a mis you know,
when you've been in the business for as long as I have,
and not that people don't trick me all the time, I'm sure, you know,
and I've been fooled, like, like they're like anybody else.
But you develop that sixth sense of, you know, when it's just not right.
And so when it's not right, you have to ask more questions,
you have to find more witnesses, you try to develop more evidence, you know,
to get to the truth of the matter.
When people are telling the truth,
do they provide more detail in what they're describing than somebody who's
trying to make up the story?
Well, I, I, I tell you, it's, it's really just the opposite of that, Robert. Oh,
truthful. People tend to, first of all, they're very open in their demeanor,
right? Mm-hmm. , it's very straightforward,
it's succinct information. It's to the point, right?
They're not trying to, you know mm-hmm. Add all these adjectives and, you know,
make it more believable. They just, it's kinda like,
they just tell it like it is. And that's, to me, they lean forward,
truth tellers tend to lead forward, right? And, and they,
and you can see it in their eyes. I mean, you know, cuz they're,
it's almost like they're looking through you when,
when people are telling the truth as opposed to a lot of times folks that are,
that are being deceptive. You know, that's one of the things that I focus on is,
is the mouth as well. Right? You people tell us a lot of signals with the mouth.
What is, from your experience,
what's the type of criminal that scares you?
Well, the, the, the type of criminal that scares me. You know,
most criminals are narcissistic, right? Or what we call primary narcissist.
Most of the rest of the world is, or, or in the United States, most of us,
you know, we're secondary narcissists, right? We want to have our Facebook,
we wanna tell you our story, but we we're not gonna kill somebody, um,
and make it about them, which is what primary narcissists do. You know, the,
the ones that concern me the most are sociopaths because these,
there's just no sense of remorse whatsoever there. And they actually enjoy it,
right? And, and, and these guys are skilled manipulators.
They are the true con artist,
and they typically turn out to be our repeat offenders quite often.
Well, Joe Kennedy, thank you so much, uh, for sharing with us. And again,
the book for our listeners and viewers is solving cold cases,
investigation techniques and Protocol. I've got my copy here and it's do,
as you can see, it's dogeared and everything else.
I've learned a lot from it even after covering this all those years and,
and being a congressional investigator,
every investigator ought to read your book. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Robert. I've enjoyed my time with you today. God bless you,
sir.
In our next episode, Joe Kennedy will walk us through cold case investigations.
Kennedy started the first federal cold case unit at N C I S
and he will enlighten us with how forensic investigative genetic genealogy
produces new leads for cold cases,
thought to be unsolvable. In closing,
here's my reporter's recap and reflections.
Joe Kennedy's parents taught him to treat all people with dignity and respect.
He did this with all of the criminals he encountered.
Kennedy's unorthodox style of investigations paid off by getting
confessions without using heavy handed tactics.
You've been listening to the True Crime Reporter podcast, stay true,
stay safe,
and stay tuned for more stories from inside the crime Scene tape.
This is Robert Riggs reporting.