1 00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:11,340 Criminals deposit physical evidence at crime scenes, fingerprints, D n a, 2 00:00:11,590 --> 00:00:15,980 footprints, et cetera. But they also deposit their personality, right? 3 00:00:16,010 --> 00:00:18,500 It's what they do. And so, 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,060 one of the things I'm always looking for at a crime scene, 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,740 and I preach this to the detectives I work with, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,980 is we're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the 7 00:00:29,030 --> 00:00:29,863 usual. 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:35,020 If you're a fan of the N C I S television drama, you are in for a retreat. 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:36,680 Joe Kennedy, 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,380 the homicide investigator you just heard was a veteran agent for the real 11 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:44,900 life, N C I S. Hello, 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,860 I'm investigative reporter Robert Riggs. In this episode of True Crime Reporter, 13 00:00:50,340 --> 00:00:54,900 I lift up the crime scene tape for Joe Kennedy to take you inside the 14 00:00:54,970 --> 00:00:59,660 Anatomy of Murder cases. This is the first of a two-part series. 15 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,100 Joe, you, you are in N C I S. Tell our listeners, 16 00:01:13,490 --> 00:01:14,323 what does it do, 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,500 and is it in any way similar to what we see on the television show? 18 00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:24,050 You know, Robert, uh, after the, after the first year of production, uh, 19 00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:27,290 most of the cases were based on, you know, true crimes or, 20 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:30,850 or actual investigations. And then I think as the years went on, 21 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,770 Hollywood took a little liberty with, you know, and some theatrics. But, 22 00:01:35,070 --> 00:01:39,090 you know, N C I S is interestingly, you know, federal law enforcement, uh, 23 00:01:39,090 --> 00:01:41,650 a lot of people would be surprised to know it's, we're civilians. 24 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:46,450 We're not in the military. And we have the same job statuses like an fbi, 25 00:01:46,490 --> 00:01:48,930 I D E A agent, a t f agent, you know, just a, 26 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:50,810 a criminal investigator for the federal government. 27 00:01:51,270 --> 00:01:54,930 The one thing I think makes N C I S agents different is, you know, 28 00:01:54,930 --> 00:01:58,610 some of the other federal agencies have one specific mission, like a T f, 29 00:01:58,610 --> 00:02:02,050 you know, is looking for guns and fire and drug enforcement administration, 30 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,490 just drugs, you know, with N C I S, 31 00:02:04,490 --> 00:02:09,250 it's more like being a big city detective every day because we work 32 00:02:09,390 --> 00:02:14,330 any felony investigation that impacts the Department of Navy or Marine Corps, 33 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:18,770 uh, whether the person might be a victim or a suspect of a crime. 34 00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:23,310 And so everything from murder to robbery to rape. 35 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:26,870 Yeah, absolutely. And you never know what the day is going to bring, you know, 36 00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:31,350 in, in a, we have various field offices around the, the world. I've served in, 37 00:02:31,350 --> 00:02:35,190 in many of those, uh, in different capacities. But, uh, you wake up, 38 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:38,110 you go to work thinking you're gonna do one thing, and, uh, you know, 39 00:02:38,110 --> 00:02:40,830 that call for service comes in and you're doing something totally different. 40 00:02:41,210 --> 00:02:43,510 How did you get started with N C I S? 41 00:02:44,260 --> 00:02:47,670 Well, you, you know, Robert, I had, uh, I had started, uh, 42 00:02:47,670 --> 00:02:50,270 my career with the state police agency here in North Carolina. 43 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:53,150 And I thought that's what I was gonna do. Uh, 44 00:02:53,150 --> 00:02:55,150 about the time I had applied for that job, 45 00:02:55,270 --> 00:02:59,610 I simultaneously had applied for N C I S I, I'm an old city kid from, uh, 46 00:02:59,610 --> 00:03:02,890 high Point North Carolina. And when I say city kid, you know, it's a, 47 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,650 it's pretty much a, a just a what it is. And we make furniture there. 48 00:03:07,110 --> 00:03:11,090 So I grew up not traveling very much. I'd played some college baseball, but, 49 00:03:11,090 --> 00:03:11,370 you know, 50 00:03:11,370 --> 00:03:13,930 those travels were basically the southeastern part of the United States. 51 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:16,460 And so it intrigued me. 52 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:21,780 I had met my wife in college and her dad owned a barbershop up in Northern 53 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:22,853 Virginia. 54 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,380 And so a couple of folks had come through that were agents that had retired 55 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,980 and told, you know, her about it. And of course, she told me, 56 00:03:30,980 --> 00:03:34,980 and I was intrigued with the travel. And I'll never forget, you know, 57 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:38,180 when I first hired on, uh, the guy who I, 58 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:42,260 I have a lot of who did a really lot for my career, his name was Bob Johnson. 59 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,420 He was from Chicago. He was a former Arlington County detective in Arlington, 60 00:03:46,580 --> 00:03:50,200 Virginia. But he showed me a picture of him in Hong Kong, you know, 61 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,200 looking down over Victoria's Peak. And I thought, man, how do you do that? 62 00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:57,240 And he says, well, that's what you've gotten into . I didn't know that, 63 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:02,090 you know, that, that my career would take me to 106 countries, right? 64 00:04:02,090 --> 00:04:06,210 Working everything from murders to robberies to assassinations of military 65 00:04:06,210 --> 00:04:07,130 members, you know, et cetera. 66 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,690 Well, let's talk about, for starters here, the anatomy of murder. 67 00:04:12,510 --> 00:04:15,410 Not a cold case, but active murder investigation. 68 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,250 What is it that makes a good homicide detective? 69 00:04:18,610 --> 00:04:21,210 I tell you, Robert, it's a myriad of things. You know, 70 00:04:21,210 --> 00:04:25,670 the first thing I'm looking for is common sense, right? And then tenacity, 71 00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:27,470 but having patience as well. 72 00:04:28,010 --> 00:04:31,270 It all comes down to the ability to talk to people and communicate with people 73 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:35,920 and connect with people. And I have this, this thing that I kinda, uh, 74 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,960 kind of deal with when I'm working a murder case. And that's, 75 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,290 I think you have to develop intimacy with the witnesses, the victims, 76 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:46,750 and the suspects, you know, whether it's a murder or any violent crime. 77 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:48,910 Because ultimately we're trying to get, 78 00:04:49,010 --> 00:04:52,270 create intimacy to get people to trust us. So they'll tell us what they know. 79 00:04:53,170 --> 00:04:55,430 And I think that's what I rely heavily on. You know, 80 00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:57,270 there's only three ways to solve a murder, Robert. 81 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,460 We have to have an eyewitness. We have to have some physical evidence. 82 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,260 We have to get 'em to tell us the truth or confess, right? 83 00:05:05,220 --> 00:05:09,960 And so I think a good homicide detective has to have a broad brush and 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,320 a lot of knowledge. I mean, folks, 85 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,240 I don't think realize how hard it is to be a good homicide detective because you 86 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:17,640 have to know so many different things. 87 00:05:18,350 --> 00:05:19,360 When you look at murder, 88 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,570 what are the typical murder cases? 89 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:27,450 You would see it at a big city police department as well as N C I S. 90 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,610 Well, you know, that, that would run the gamut. You know, 91 00:05:30,610 --> 00:05:33,530 that could be a domestic homicide, that could be a, 92 00:05:33,730 --> 00:05:38,050 a very well planned homicide. It could be an accident. 93 00:05:38,230 --> 00:05:41,370 It was never intended to be a murder. It could be another, uh, 94 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:42,690 crime plan that went wrong. 95 00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:45,450 And this is what I would kind of try to share with you. 96 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:46,970 That may be a long answer, Robert, 97 00:05:47,070 --> 00:05:50,890 but if you think about the number of burglaries and break-ins that are planned, 98 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:54,050 you know, that number's very high, right? Or robberies. 99 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:57,940 Those are very high numbers. What tends to happen is those are, 100 00:05:57,940 --> 00:05:59,260 those turn into murders, 101 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:04,760 and one thing turns other crimes into a murder. And it is so simple, 102 00:06:05,260 --> 00:06:09,430 but it's quite candidly the victim's response. You know, 103 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:12,550 the guy breaks into the house at night thinking that he's gonna, you know, 104 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:13,670 find an empty house. 105 00:06:13,690 --> 00:06:16,990 Cuz he sat outside and watched what he thought was all the occupants leave, 106 00:06:16,990 --> 00:06:18,750 right? And he's gonna go in and steal something. 107 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:21,590 He doesn't realize that the grandmother stayed behind, right? 108 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:24,050 And she's a feisty little old grandmother. 109 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:27,610 And so he just went to steal some things out of the house cuz maybe he's a, 110 00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:30,370 a meth addict or, or on heroin or what have you. 111 00:06:30,370 --> 00:06:33,810 And now all of a sudden this little old grandmother starts fighting him back and 112 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:36,530 he pushes her down and she falls and hits her head on the fireplace. 113 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,770 Obviously an intended break-in right burglary, but the murder was not. And, 114 00:06:40,990 --> 00:06:43,050 and this is what I, this is where I'm, uh, 115 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:46,050 different than many homicide investigators is, I think a very, 116 00:06:46,050 --> 00:06:50,190 very small percentage of murders are actually planned. Extremely small number. 117 00:06:50,850 --> 00:06:55,370 And when you talk about, it's the reaction of the, uh, the victim, and, 118 00:06:55,370 --> 00:06:55,930 and by the way, 119 00:06:55,930 --> 00:07:00,410 is it usually a single perp and a single victim in murder cases? 120 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:04,770 Yes, sir. That's, that's almost, you know, that's the predominant source of, 121 00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:07,490 of murder is it's, it's a single victim, single suspect. 122 00:07:07,910 --> 00:07:09,450 So what would you say to a, 123 00:07:09,810 --> 00:07:13,890 a person who in the middle of the night hear someone breaking into their house 124 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:20,270 or is, is confronted in a mugging? What do you say to the victim? 125 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:20,510 Of course, 126 00:07:20,510 --> 00:07:25,230 here in Texas it's likely those the victim's gonna shoot somebody. But, 127 00:07:25,370 --> 00:07:28,290 uh, what, what's the good advice you can give? 128 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:29,530 Well, I mean, I, you know, I, 129 00:07:29,890 --> 00:07:34,290 I I think that's an individual choice that people are gonna make. Uh, 130 00:07:34,330 --> 00:07:36,690 I will tell you, we have the same thing going on here in North Carolina. 131 00:07:36,750 --> 00:07:38,650 We have something called the Castle doctrine. You know, 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,890 it's kinda like the stand your ground laws. Yes. I don't want people to, 133 00:07:41,950 --> 00:07:44,410 to flee, right? Because you gotta protect yourself, 134 00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:47,410 you gotta protect your family. But I think a lot of people, you know, 135 00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:51,370 in today's day and age, things have changed very much. You know, in, 136 00:07:51,370 --> 00:07:54,610 in years past we would not, okay, if you're defending yourself or your property, 137 00:07:55,310 --> 00:07:57,130 no worries. But boy has that changed. 138 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,370 Well, any other, you talked about the elderly woman screaming. 139 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:07,180 What would be the other response so that it doesn't escalate? 140 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:11,940 Well, I, I think securing yourself in the house in a secure area, can you, 141 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,900 cuz most folks, they're gonna flee once they hear you. Mm-hmm. , 142 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:20,220 right? Most folks are not in it for the confrontation. Ju just the opposite. 143 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:25,410 And, you know, confrontation is not good. I'm, I'm a, I I have concerns with, 144 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,930 with guns and people, you know, wanting concealed weapon permits and all that. 145 00:08:29,030 --> 00:08:31,690 Cuz you better be ready to use that thing because , 146 00:08:32,410 --> 00:08:35,130 somebody might shove that gun down your throat. And I mean, I'm not trying to, 147 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:38,290 I know I'm getting off topic here a little bit with you, but, you know, 148 00:08:38,290 --> 00:08:41,650 in terms of murder, I think a lot of murders happen that are total, I, 149 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:43,610 the other crimes are planned with the murders, not, 150 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,280 I was helping on a case Monday, I, I can't get too much into the particulars, 151 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:50,640 I'm here because it's an active investigation. 152 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:53,280 But detective called me and he said, Hey Joe, let me run some by ya. 153 00:08:53,450 --> 00:08:57,160 We've been up about four days working his thing. And it was an, 154 00:08:57,180 --> 00:09:00,080 it was an altercation between a husband and a wife. 155 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,370 And so the husband got angry and went and burned down a facility 156 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,930 that belonged to his wife's father. He did not know that there were some, uh, 157 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,190 occupants in that facility. It was a horse barn and one of 'em died. 158 00:09:15,890 --> 00:09:19,550 The murder wasn't planned. The arson was, and I'm a little different Robert, 159 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:20,270 because I, 160 00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:24,190 I think also one thing that a lot of detectives do is they try to follow a 161 00:09:24,190 --> 00:09:27,670 motive. And I actually teach just the opposite. I don't want, 162 00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:30,510 I don't want to know the, any motives as I do this case, 163 00:09:30,910 --> 00:09:33,030 I wanna focus on what the evidence is telling me, 164 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:34,950 not what a potential motive might be. 165 00:09:36,130 --> 00:09:39,540 Know that is very different. But by focusing on the evidence, 166 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:42,430 does that help you close a case faster? 167 00:09:43,310 --> 00:09:46,870 I think it does, Robert. And it's starting to gain some steam and some momentum. 168 00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:50,870 You know, I learned it from some old school homicide detectives back in the, 169 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:55,110 in the eighties and the nineties, late eighties, early nineties. That, you know, 170 00:09:55,610 --> 00:09:58,950 it, it's okay to focus on motive, but motive is elusive. 171 00:10:00,090 --> 00:10:01,270 And sometimes we're, 172 00:10:01,270 --> 00:10:03,590 we think we're investigating the correct motive and we're not, 173 00:10:03,730 --> 00:10:05,350 has nothing to do with why the person died. 174 00:10:05,890 --> 00:10:09,510 So I like to just focus on the evidence. You know, one of the things I look at, 175 00:10:09,530 --> 00:10:12,390 and this may sound, you know, quite simple, and it is, 176 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:16,750 is let's say I'm looking at a victim's body and all the wounds are on the right 177 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:21,110 side of that victim's body, right? Let's say it's a stabbing case and you see, 178 00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:22,910 you know, a couple stab wounds, you know, 179 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:25,750 on the upper right arm and maybe in the elbow. 180 00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:30,350 And maybe you see a stab wound on the, you know, the right thigh. Maybe, 181 00:10:31,010 --> 00:10:33,350 you know, can we determine the handedness of that offender? 182 00:10:33,570 --> 00:10:37,190 Is it truly a left-handed offender or is there, is there something else to it? 183 00:10:37,550 --> 00:10:38,390 I see. And, 184 00:10:38,390 --> 00:10:43,110 and can you get an example of a recent case that you worked where with the 185 00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:46,430 evidence-based investigation, what a difference it made. I'll. 186 00:10:46,430 --> 00:10:49,670 Give you another example. This is a case a couple of weeks ago and, 187 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:53,030 and I just have to be careful not to give you the right name of the case cuz 188 00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:54,510 these are active cases, but Right. 189 00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:56,790 I had another detective call me local jurisdiction. 190 00:10:57,210 --> 00:11:00,350 He did a fantastic evidence-based investigation. 191 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:05,390 So the victim is dead and the body's been dumped in a particular location of the 192 00:11:05,390 --> 00:11:10,330 town. And so as I went over and kind of interacted with him, 193 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:14,090 he wanted me to look through the crime scene photos. He did a really good job. 194 00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:18,410 There was a very specific type of ammunition that was used, right? And, 195 00:11:18,410 --> 00:11:21,890 and that was, that was recovered from the victim's body. So he just, you know, 196 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,170 quickly determined, okay, who shipped this ammunition to this town? 197 00:11:26,740 --> 00:11:30,170 Right? Who sells it? You know, who's what, what firearms dealer has it? 198 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:32,130 And then from there, you know, 199 00:11:32,310 --> 00:11:36,930 he was able to link that person who had bought it 200 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:41,580 to the same neighborhood that the victim was last seen in. Well, that's a great, 201 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,500 that's a great step, isn't it? Yes. Well then as we're looking at the photos, 202 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:48,820 I start noticing in the, the victim's boots, 203 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:51,580 there's a lot of little small pebbles and rocks. 204 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:57,060 And so instantaneously as we're sitting at his desk and I say, Hey, you know, 205 00:11:57,060 --> 00:11:59,460 look, look at the, you see the boots is that, you know, 206 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:01,460 we may be able to do some soil analysis here. 207 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,680 And he is already clicking to the location of 208 00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:09,320 where the individual who bought the ammunition, 209 00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:12,560 and as he pulls the Google map street view up, 210 00:12:12,620 --> 00:12:15,840 it is clearly here you see the small little pebbles in that driveway. 211 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:18,680 And then if you look through the rest of the neighborhood, you know, 212 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,200 they're paved concrete or there's no gravel at all. So it's like, 213 00:12:22,620 --> 00:12:26,120 that's a great evidence-based investigation. And of course we're immediately, 214 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,960 he and I excited and we're getting in touch with a, you know, a soil expert at, 215 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:32,040 at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. 216 00:12:32,270 --> 00:12:36,640 Well, you know, the difference I see it really is hard to determine a motive. 217 00:12:37,220 --> 00:12:40,040 It just varies from person to person. 218 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,800 I can see the v value of the evidence response investigation. 219 00:12:44,510 --> 00:12:46,240 Yeah. Yeah. And, and here's the thing, Robert, 220 00:12:46,350 --> 00:12:47,920 this is what we have to think about. 221 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:52,870 We wanna be able to read a crime scene and then take what we read 222 00:12:53,220 --> 00:12:55,470 from the crime scene into the interview room, 223 00:12:55,970 --> 00:13:00,710 be able to create good enough rapport with the suspect to get them to confess. 224 00:13:00,770 --> 00:13:03,590 And this is what I mean by that. Criminals deposit, 225 00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:08,150 physical evidence at crime scenes, fingerprints, d n a, footprints, et cetera, 226 00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:12,710 but they also deposit their personality, right? It's what they do. 227 00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:16,630 And so, one of the things I'm always looking for at a crime scene, 228 00:13:17,010 --> 00:13:19,270 and I preach this to the detectives I work with, 229 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:24,430 is we're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the 230 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,270 usual. So lemme say that again. 231 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,790 We're looking for the presence of the unusual and the absence of the usual. 232 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:35,520 What's not here that should be here? What's here that shouldn't be here. Right? 233 00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:37,560 And you kind of break it down. And, 234 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,040 and we have to focus on the personality because offenders will tell us what 235 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,280 they're doing at that scene. How long did they stay there, you know, 236 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:48,120 did they ransack the house? Did they feel, is there forced entry? 237 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,280 Is there signs of a struggle? Keep in mind, the smaller the crime scene, 238 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,870 the more likely it's planned. You know, that's, and, and, and you have to, and, 239 00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:59,910 and you can take that to the bank because that's almost always true, you know? 240 00:14:00,170 --> 00:14:03,630 And so that's one thing I'm looking for very early in the case. 241 00:14:03,850 --> 00:14:08,150 Are we dealing with a sophisticated offender or an unsophisticated offender? 242 00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:11,990 A lot of people have maybe heard in the past the breaking down of a crime scene 243 00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:13,990 if it's either organized or disorganized. 244 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:16,510 The disorganized being not as sophisticated, 245 00:14:16,570 --> 00:14:18,550 the organized being a more sophisticated offender. 246 00:14:19,510 --> 00:14:22,650 Yes. You study crime scene pictures. 247 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,010 What are you looking for when you study those pictures? 248 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:30,390 Robert, I'm looking for your myriad of things, as I said, mostly in the, 249 00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:33,670 in the realm of the personality that's left behind is deposited. 250 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:37,750 So how long did the suspect remain at the scene? 251 00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:42,070 What did they do while they were there? How comfortable were they were, 252 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:45,350 were they at the scene? You know, let me give you an example. 253 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:48,910 Here's a very obvious one. And, and, and I have, I use an example in the book, 254 00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:50,230 but, uh, 255 00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:54,180 if we go to a crime scene and we see the victim's faces covered with some 256 00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:58,680 object, it likely indicates two things to us. Well, 257 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,200 the first is there's probably an interpersonal relationship, 258 00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:06,000 or was an interpersonal relationship. The second thing is, is there's remorse, 259 00:15:06,130 --> 00:15:06,500 right? 260 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:11,360 We know that historically and from empirical data and doing previous cases 261 00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:12,960 and interviewing suspects that, 262 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,000 and what they do is they cover a face with what's readily available to them. 263 00:15:17,460 --> 00:15:19,080 You won't find an offender, kill someone, 264 00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:21,680 and then run through the house and grab something and come back and cover a 265 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,520 person's face. It's normally what's within arm's reach. 266 00:15:25,460 --> 00:15:28,120 So let's say they kill 'em in the living room and there's a pillow from the 267 00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:30,560 sofa, you know, maybe they pull that down. And, and again, 268 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,400 those are just some behavioral clues. Just a couple that would, 269 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,080 would give us some ideas of what's going on. Is the body naked? 270 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:40,320 Is the body clothed? Has, is, is there, 271 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:43,870 is there been any exploration of that body by the suspect? You know, 272 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:48,110 are there any of the traditional motives of robbery? Is it sexual in nature? 273 00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:51,230 Is it revenge? Is there overkill on that body? 274 00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:55,340 We're gonna pause for just a moment, and when we come back, 275 00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:59,140 we'll pick up the conversation and talk more about victimology. 276 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:13,520 We're talking with Joe Kennedy, 277 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,080 a longtime homicide investigator with N C I S, who did a lot more than homicide. 278 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,280 He's written a book called Solving Cold Cases, 279 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,080 investigation Techniques and Protocol. 280 00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:30,010 So we're talking victimology and what you look at in the victim to try to help 281 00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:32,170 determine who the perpetrator was. 282 00:16:33,830 --> 00:16:38,530 Are the majority of victims killed by somebody they know or crossed paths with? 283 00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:43,010 Yes, Robert? I, I would, I would say that nine out of 10 homicide victims, 284 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:47,660 there is some type of interpersonal relationship before that person 285 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,780 is killed. Now, how long is that relationship? That could be years, 286 00:16:51,780 --> 00:16:56,620 that could be months, that could be weeks, it could be days in some occasions, 287 00:16:56,620 --> 00:17:00,500 right? Where maybe let, let's say you got a suspect who, who sees a, 288 00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:05,020 a young lady move into the new apartment complex and he'd befriend or in the 289 00:17:05,020 --> 00:17:06,500 parking lot and, you know, 290 00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:10,100 that goes on for two or three days and then he reads the wrong signals. 291 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:10,420 You know, 292 00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:13,980 she's already got a boyfriend and then he decides to go back and rape and kill 293 00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:15,620 her, right? I mean, in his mind, 294 00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:19,540 maybe there was a relationship in her mind there wasn't. But, uh, 295 00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:23,340 one thing with victimology, I want, i I want to kind of get across hopefully, 296 00:17:23,340 --> 00:17:28,220 that your, your viewers would appreciate is this is when, when a person is, 297 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:29,473 is found dead, 298 00:17:29,530 --> 00:17:33,940 what we typically do in American law enforcement is we work backwards from the 299 00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:37,980 point the person's person's found dead until we, you know, okay, 300 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,660 we found her here in her apartment this morning. What did she do last night? 301 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,300 Who was she with yesterday at lunch? What did she do yesterday day, 302 00:17:44,340 --> 00:17:45,420 morning when she went to work? 303 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,580 And what I try to preach is I don't wanna focus on the past, 304 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:52,490 I wanna focus on the future, Robert, 305 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,490 I've found that about half of murders occur because of a futuristic event, 306 00:17:57,630 --> 00:18:00,990 not the past. And what I mean by that is, is, 307 00:18:01,090 --> 00:18:03,630 is is simply that if you look into the future, 308 00:18:03,730 --> 00:18:08,710 if that person did not die this morning, where would they be 36 hours from now? 309 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,030 Where would they be tomorrow night? And what I mean, and, and, 310 00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:15,910 and I'll give you an example. So let's say you have, uh, 311 00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:18,110 a couple that gets married. They have a couple kids, 312 00:18:18,110 --> 00:18:20,870 and then they end up getting divorced, right? Uh, 313 00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:25,270 the husband is still very upset over the relationship. And, and then he, 314 00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:26,830 there's joint custody of the kids. 315 00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:30,030 And so he's just had the kids for the past weekend, 316 00:18:30,410 --> 00:18:33,510 but his ex-wife comes to him on Monday and says, Hey, look, 317 00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:36,670 I need you to watch the kids again this coming week. And he's like, 318 00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:40,630 wait a minute. It's not my turn. But she, she gives him an excuse why? 319 00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:43,390 And he says, okay, I'll, I'll take the kids again. 320 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:47,390 And then he finds out Wednesday morning that the reason she wants him to take 321 00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:51,710 the kids is she's going out on a date with her new boyfriend. So he goes into, 322 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:56,030 you know, a fit of rage, he calls demands to meet his wife. And she says, okay, 323 00:18:56,030 --> 00:18:59,510 I'll meet you. And so they meet, and during that meeting, 324 00:19:00,090 --> 00:19:03,830 he loses his temper and stabs her to death. Well, 325 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:07,550 she died because of what was gonna happen on Friday night, right? 326 00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:11,270 Not on Wednesday. It was a futuristic event. I know this may seem strange, 327 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:14,150 but the future is very predictive of, 328 00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:17,470 of what can happen and what does happen to murder victim where they, 329 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:21,590 if they didn't die today, because victim selection is important too. Right? 330 00:19:22,510 --> 00:19:25,690 And you have to think about, you know, if I gave you, what, 331 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,770 what risks did the victim take to put themselves in an environment that got them 332 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:32,210 killed? Let me give you an example. 333 00:19:32,890 --> 00:19:36,370 A prostitute in the inner city of New York right? 334 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,170 Knows how to operate in that environment. 335 00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:41,950 But let's say you take a suburban housewife 336 00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:45,960 who just happens to be, you know, 337 00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:50,640 engaged in a illegitimate relationship with a boyfriend even though she's 338 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,360 married, right? And so she decides to meet her boyfriend at this low end hotel, 339 00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:59,560 that crime plague neighborhood. She does not know how to operate, right? 340 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:05,400 So when you think about the risk at her house, she's a very low risk victim. 341 00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:07,880 But when she puts herself in a, an environment, 342 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:11,800 now she's a very high risk victim. Whereas if you think of that prostitute, 343 00:20:11,980 --> 00:20:14,840 she was never a high risk victim because she knows how to operate within that 344 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,640 environment all along. Does that make sense? 345 00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:22,170 Yes. Yes. You know, one of the things you point out in the book, 346 00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:27,260 and the public doesn't really understand this cause they'll see these crimes and 347 00:20:27,260 --> 00:20:28,420 we're like, this makes no sense. 348 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,530 But you talk about criminals think differently than we do. 349 00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:35,650 Yes. Would you expound on that? Yes. 350 00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:39,650 One thing, we're not chasing monsters. A lot of people make that mistake. 351 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,250 What I mean is they're most criminals are street smart. Okay? And, 352 00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:47,370 and that's just what it means. I mean, they know how to move around. 353 00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:49,300 They know how to manipulate people. 354 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,900 You have to think about how they gain control of their victims, many suspects, 355 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:54,580 right? Right. 356 00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:59,580 They use either a ruse con trick or some kind of surprise to 357 00:20:59,730 --> 00:21:04,280 lure their victims into a sense of false sense of security. The con is the most, 358 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:05,920 you know, use method. 359 00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:10,390 And then there are offenders who just use some type of blitz attack. You know, 360 00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:12,990 it's very unsophisticated, you know, and, and again, 361 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:15,270 that's what I'm talking about at a scene. You know, 362 00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:18,150 if we go to a scene and we see signs of a struggle and, you know, 363 00:21:18,150 --> 00:21:20,110 couches are turned over, furniture's turned over, 364 00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:22,630 it doesn't look like it was very well planned. Right? 365 00:21:22,970 --> 00:21:25,870 Or you go to a pristine scene where the victim's just laying there. 366 00:21:26,550 --> 00:21:30,150 I I looked at a case this week, uh, with a retired FBI agent, and, 367 00:21:30,150 --> 00:21:33,830 and we were looking at a case he had, he had sent up and put on, we've got a, 368 00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:37,110 uh, computer system we use. So we can look at the scenes virtually now. 369 00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:40,270 And you know, I'm looking at this scene going, man, 370 00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:45,080 this gal's just laying in her kitchen floor and there is nothing disturbed. 371 00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:48,400 You know, whoever gained access. And then you look outside and there's snow, 372 00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:51,800 there is lots of snow on the ground. And so you're thinking, wow, 373 00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:54,840 they had to have, you know, not like they just busted in here. They, 374 00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:57,560 she had to have known them. You know, it's pretty clear there, 375 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,880 there's some intimacy going on in that relationship. 376 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:04,700 So then are you looking for 377 00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:09,930 evidence of who she's been seeing, who was in the neighborhood? 378 00:22:09,930 --> 00:22:10,763 That sort of thing. 379 00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:14,090 I just wanna talk to you about five things here real quickly, Robert. 380 00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:16,410 I think this'll, and I'm gonna reel these off pretty fast, 381 00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:20,810 but there's five things that have to be done immediately at a murder scene, 382 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:26,160 right? The first thing is we have to listen to the 9 1 1 call. Okay? What, 383 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:31,140 what's, what did they, what was first reported to police? And get an idea. Okay, 384 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:33,860 who's, who in the zoo, right? Who are we, what are we responding to? 385 00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:37,020 And who are they victimology is, is a component of that. 386 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,820 And then we have to start doing criminal history checks. You know, 387 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:42,500 if who are the, and, and when we go to a scene, I, like, 388 00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:46,230 I look at a scene as like going to a play, right? And, 389 00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:49,990 and you have characters in a plot in every crime scene mm-hmm. . 390 00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:53,510 And so why are they telling me the story, the way they're telling me the story? 391 00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:57,800 Why are they trying to spin it to put themselves in a positive light or maybe 392 00:22:57,810 --> 00:23:02,080 blame the victim or whatever that might be. There's always the ulterior motives. 393 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,200 And then the second thing we have to get on the scene after we start trying to 394 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,960 figure out who our victim is, is, you know, obviously in today's day and age, 395 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,400 we're looking for surveillance cameras. Whether that's a ring doorbell, 396 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,200 whether that's the local convenience store, you know, 397 00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:20,360 that's followed up by electronic communications. And that's the phones, right? 398 00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:23,040 That's, you cannot go anywhere without being put on that phone. 399 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:26,920 And then the second thing is, we know that of a lot of offenders, 400 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,320 after they commit a murder, they start Googling, how do I get away with murder? 401 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:34,120 How do I get rid of a body? How long does DNA last on a door? Knb, you know, 402 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:36,640 all these things. And then a, 403 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,040 a very comprehensive neighborhood canvas is the four step. 404 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,360 And that's where you have got to take your time. 405 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,780 You gotta be patient and methodically go through every person that could have 406 00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:48,700 seen the smallest little detail, 407 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,060 and then the fifthly as we focus on the flight paths and escape routes, 408 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,860 you know, because if they come in, they gotta leave. Um, 409 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,940 and all that time we have to build intimacy. It's so tough today, Robert, 410 00:24:00,970 --> 00:24:05,940 because bystander behavior has changed so much in the last 30 years. You know, 411 00:24:05,940 --> 00:24:08,700 when I started working murders in the late eighties, you know, 412 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:11,420 bystanders would help you, neighbors would tell you what they knew. 413 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,300 That's not the case today. 414 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:16,740 That's why we have to spend so much time with witnesses. 415 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,700 And one of the big mistakes that's made often is we can't talk to the potential 416 00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:25,060 witnesses and neighbors in the neighborhood where a crime happened because 417 00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:28,220 everybody's watching. And if they start talking to the police, it's like, okay, 418 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:31,260 we're gonna get you. Or you're a snitch or you're a rat. Mm-hmm. 419 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:31,660 mm-hmm. . 420 00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:33,580 And so we have to come up with creative ways to, 421 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,540 to interview witnesses in non-traditional environments outside of the crime 422 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:38,373 scene. 423 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:42,990 Do you find this same difficulty in middle class or upscale neighborhoods? 424 00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:47,750 You, you know, you do. It's funny when you have middle class or upscale murders, 425 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,980 and, and I think you can take this to the bank, Robert, 426 00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:55,980 it's often the victim has placed themselves in an environment that they were not 427 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:56,973 familiar with. 428 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,260 The kind of like the example I shared with you with the a a a wife, you know, 429 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:03,660 having a mm-hmm. meeting with a, with a boyfriend, 430 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,620 middle class and, and affluent people. They limit their movement by choice. 431 00:25:09,140 --> 00:25:11,220 I want you to think about this. In other words, 432 00:25:11,220 --> 00:25:14,340 they have to live in a certain place. They have to stay at the country club. 433 00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:16,060 They, they only drive a certain car, 434 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,660 so they get their oil changed to the dealership, right? You, 435 00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:21,500 you see where I'm going with this, right? And, but, 436 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,780 but here's the thing that I want to, that, 437 00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:28,620 that I pay a bunch of attention to in a homicide is I'm convinced that all 438 00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:33,330 murders are geographic. And so there's a connection of where people work, 439 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,730 live or play. And when I say play recreation, 440 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,050 that could be everything from going to church on Wednesday night to going to the 441 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:43,930 bar to have a few beers on Wednesday night. But what I do is I draw a triangle. 442 00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:45,850 I draw two triangles when I get on the scene, 443 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,100 the first triangle's for the victim. And at each point of the triangle, 444 00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:53,500 I put work, live, play, work, live, play for potential suspects. 445 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,100 So how, where was the connection? Where did this relationship cross over at? 446 00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:00,820 I will tell you, you know, let's take some cities. 447 00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:03,340 Like I'm just gonna throw out Houston, right? 448 00:26:03,340 --> 00:26:06,620 Because I know that's a big city in Texas or, or Dallas. You know, 449 00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:11,100 those homicide detectives, they're gonna solve their cases blocks away, 450 00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:13,440 right? From the crime scene. 451 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:17,240 And what I mean is because those victims and those suspects, 452 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,680 their movement is restricted based, based on socioeconomics. They have to walk, 453 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,120 they have to take public transportation. 454 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,680 They might have a bicycle or they have a car that's shared by a lot of people, 455 00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:29,280 right? If I'm in a more rural setting, 456 00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:34,160 like let's say out in the mesquite area or beyond mesquite, you know, 457 00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:38,280 Will's point or something out there, then what we're talking about is miles. 458 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:41,560 And in rural settings, 459 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,360 I still should come across my suspect then about four miles of the crime scene. 460 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,020 Mm-hmm. in urban or densely populated cities. 461 00:26:49,180 --> 00:26:52,220 I should come across my suspect by the eighth block. 462 00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:55,220 I don't wanna go more in about 12 blocks, cuz then I'm just fishing. 463 00:26:57,060 --> 00:26:58,800 The other thing that I don't think we, that, 464 00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:02,000 that sometimes hijacks cases is crime stoppers 465 00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:06,370 well-intentioned to go out and, Hey, we got a tip. Somebody called in, 466 00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:08,250 heard somebody talking about this murder. 467 00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:12,490 If that comes in about a week after the murder, I, 468 00:27:12,490 --> 00:27:15,610 it's not that I'm gonna ignore it, but I'm not gonna put as much weight in it. 469 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:20,170 You know, viable crime stopper tips that, that are initiated quickly or, 470 00:27:20,190 --> 00:27:24,090 or immediately after the murder tend to produce more fruit than ones that come 471 00:27:24,090 --> 00:27:25,410 in later in the investigation. 472 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,713 Why is that? 473 00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:30,500 Well, what happens is, you know, a, 474 00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:34,500 a week or two into a case now neighbors have started communicating with each 475 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:35,820 other. They've been interviewed by the police, 476 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:38,420 so they're sharing what they told the police. You know, 477 00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:41,260 stories get discombobulated. I mean, you know, 478 00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:44,900 the old thing where you may be whispering somebody's ear of a 30, 30 room, 479 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,420 first grade class, and by the time it gets to the back of the room, 480 00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:50,580 it's a totally different, you know, version of what was whispered in the ear. 481 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,820 So I think it's, it becomes hearsay in rumors and innuendo, you know, later. 482 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:56,980 You know, 483 00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:00,820 one of the things that surprised me in the book was to learn that two thirds of 484 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:02,500 the murders are committed outdoors. 485 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,980 Yes. Robert. That that is generally cor correct. 486 00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:08,980 About two thirds happen outdoors, about a third indoors, 487 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,220 you'll see that we've got about a 10% better chance of solving cases in indoors. 488 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,700 And, and really that's the preservation of, of mostly DNA or fingerprints. 489 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,020 You know, DNA's enemy is sunlight and heat, two biggest enemies. 490 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,540 And so, you know, as we process those scenes, you know, and, and then you, 491 00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:31,420 then you're dealing with degraded d n a as opposed to, you know, 492 00:28:31,420 --> 00:28:32,253 some good d n a. 493 00:28:33,140 --> 00:28:34,390 Well, in your work, what, I mean, 494 00:28:34,390 --> 00:28:37,310 what kinds of murders did you see committed outdoors? 495 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,390 Every kind of murder shootings are very common. 496 00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:45,150 Most of your shooting murders happen outdoors, stabbings. I mean, it, 497 00:28:45,150 --> 00:28:46,790 it runs against blunt force trauma. 498 00:28:47,130 --> 00:28:51,230 You're gonna find that oftentimes too movement of a body, right? 499 00:28:52,290 --> 00:28:56,910 So did the body, did they die where they lie? Right? That's that's right. Right. 500 00:28:56,910 --> 00:29:01,230 Sometimes you'll see that's less sophisticated or did the offender know I need 501 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:06,230 to move this body after I have, you know, killed them. So a lot of bodies are, 502 00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:09,600 are dumped. Um, I was helping on a case here, uh, 503 00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:12,320 what about two weeks ago where, you know, 504 00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:16,800 the girls shot in the back of the head and it's very apparent, you know, 505 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,040 they take her to and dump her in this, in this park. 506 00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:24,050 It's a very unique location. 507 00:29:24,550 --> 00:29:27,890 It had to have been known by the offenders. And you know, 508 00:29:27,910 --> 00:29:30,370 so when we find bodies outside, there's, 509 00:29:30,370 --> 00:29:34,690 there's two things we have to immediately ask ourselves that the body is in an 510 00:29:34,690 --> 00:29:37,610 area that was frequented by the suspect, I'm sorry, 511 00:29:37,890 --> 00:29:42,690 frequented by the victim or known by the suspect or both. And you know, 512 00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:45,410 in this case, I, I was looking at a few weeks ago, I mean, it's like, 513 00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:48,850 oh my gosh. And, and the girls, you know, she's got on, um, it, 514 00:29:48,850 --> 00:29:50,370 it's just undergarments, you know, 515 00:29:50,370 --> 00:29:54,690 and she's obviously been dumped there and there doesn't look to be a sexual 516 00:29:54,690 --> 00:29:57,210 component to it at all. I mean, she's dressed, she's clothed, 517 00:29:57,670 --> 00:30:00,130 but it's probably some disagreement where she was shot. 518 00:30:00,150 --> 00:30:04,520 And then they had to get the body, you know, from being to avoid detection. 519 00:30:04,580 --> 00:30:08,800 And so they've taken it to this really remote location that only the offender 520 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,160 would ha you'd have to know exactly where you're going, uh, to put it there. Um, 521 00:30:13,260 --> 00:30:16,040 and I mean, this is miles from any urban, you know, or, or, 522 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:18,760 or significant population. And so, you know, 523 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,050 those are the kind of things you might see in an outdoors murder. Um, and, and, 524 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:23,600 and then, 525 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,010 then you have to think what efforts were taken to consti conceal the body. 526 00:30:27,030 --> 00:30:30,090 Was the body just dumped and abandoned or was, you know, 527 00:30:30,090 --> 00:30:34,370 did they try to cover the body with some limbs or leaves or even bury the body 528 00:30:34,430 --> 00:30:36,810 and that? And that gives us additional clues at scenes. 529 00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:40,490 And then are you trying to look at certain kind of activities? 530 00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:45,090 Maybe it's construction or something near there so you can start to, uh, 531 00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:47,250 see who would've been going through the area. 532 00:30:48,250 --> 00:30:52,450 Y Yeah. And I, I place a tremendous amount emphasis on the service industry, 533 00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:57,400 Robert, when I'm doing my investigations, because, you know, 534 00:30:57,500 --> 00:31:02,000 who had to come in and out of your crime scene perhaps for some service 535 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,720 industry function, right? They're, they're a gardener, they're a landscaper. Uh, 536 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,520 they're delivering natural gas. Um, you know, they're, 537 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,040 they're delivering Chinese food, pizza de you know, 538 00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:16,120 who has come in and left your scene. Now, one of the, 539 00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:19,080 one of the things that I find most interesting that I have found most 540 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,200 interesting in my career, and I think maybe your viewers would would as well, 541 00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:27,000 is about half of the people who commit a murder go back to the scene before 542 00:31:27,020 --> 00:31:28,160 the police get there. 543 00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:33,040 Or they go and watch the police that they'll go back and watch us actually work 544 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:33,953 or do our job. 545 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:38,240 Is there a thrill for them? What is it? Or are they, are they think, uh, 546 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,640 I wanna see if they find something that might catch me or. 547 00:31:41,150 --> 00:31:44,480 Yeah, I think the most of those folks returning to the scene, Robert, 548 00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:48,120 is they're not playing murders, right? They plan to do the break in, 549 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,320 they plan to rob the girl, they plan to, you know, try to rape the, the girl, 550 00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:54,920 but they didn't plan to do the murder. So they, it's, it's a, 551 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,600 they have to cope with it. Mm-hmm. . 552 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,440 And I will tell you that I've talked to a lot of folks who have committed murder 553 00:31:59,470 --> 00:32:01,240 over the years, and they, 554 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,800 they say it's like they're almost in a trance after the murder. 555 00:32:05,030 --> 00:32:09,240 They cannot control what they're doing. They cannot control their thoughts. 556 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,560 It's almost like they're just, you know, can't focus. And I think, you know, 557 00:32:13,740 --> 00:32:15,880 if I had to put a technical term to it, 558 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,240 I think the neuron transmitters are probably out outta whack, you know, 559 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,880 as they as emotions enter that limbic system. And, and I think it's just, 560 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,320 you know, it's like overheating the engine. Oh my gosh, what have I done? 561 00:32:27,020 --> 00:32:31,480 And so they'll go back to, to say, did I really do that? 562 00:32:31,540 --> 00:32:35,800 And then I think the second thing is they want to avoid detection. So, um, 563 00:32:35,860 --> 00:32:40,780 you'll find that people will also insert or interject themselves into the crime 564 00:32:40,780 --> 00:32:41,900 scenes Yes. On purpose. 565 00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:44,360 To show they're smarter than the police. 566 00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:48,920 Or Well, they, they think, you know, hey, if I go, you know, 567 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,800 like let's say that there's a neighbor who, 568 00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:52,800 who is responsible for the murder and, 569 00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:57,200 and we knock on his door during the neighborhood canvas and he gives us a story 570 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,760 and he knows he's lying, but, but we don't know he's lying. Right? And, 571 00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:01,440 you know, 572 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,480 we walk and continue doing more interviews and let's say we're out and about an 573 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040 hour later he comes over and he says, Hey sir, you know, 574 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,520 when you were interviewing me a little while ago, 575 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,080 I forgot to tell you that I did see this strange blue truck the other night. 576 00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:15,400 Can't remember, don't know much about it. You know, 577 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,320 I don't know the make or model, but it was a blue truck and I don't, you know, 578 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,000 I dunno if that helps you at all, but, but, but we did see one, right? 579 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,840 They're just trying to insert or interject to, to, 580 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,200 to try to learn more of what you might tell them. Uh, that's, 581 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,440 that's fairly common actually. 582 00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:34,800 What are the challenges when it's a stranger on stranger murder? I, 583 00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:35,840 serial killers? 584 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:39,280 Yeah. You know, Robert, that's a, that's a game changer. 585 00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:43,280 It can be a game changer if you're doing a case and you know, 586 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,200 we have about those first 48, 72 hours and then, then it starts getting cold. 587 00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,360 And let's say you're not connecting some dots, you're not, uh, 588 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,320 you don't have any interpersonal relationships that you've been able to identify 589 00:33:55,340 --> 00:33:59,520 or, or any inter familial relationships. And, and let's say that, you know, 590 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,800 your trail's starting to go cold, so to say. Um, 591 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,360 because that does happen very fast in an investigation. 592 00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:10,760 That's when you know you're not seeing any dots connecting. That's where, 593 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,160 you know mm-hmm. , there's no relationships. 594 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,240 Nobody can put 'em here at a specific time. 595 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,880 Nobody can say she was there at a certain time. That's really then where you, 596 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,240 where you start, you know, trying to come up with other, you know, creative, 597 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:26,920 you know, investigative techniques to maybe get, get on the right scent. 598 00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:30,010 In closing, what did, 599 00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:34,530 based on your experience of investigating this myriad of kind of cases, 600 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,920 what advice do you have for people to protect themselves or 601 00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:43,120 be aware or not to end up as a murder victim? 602 00:34:43,970 --> 00:34:48,100 Well, you, you know, I'm gonna use the example of my children. You know, 603 00:34:48,140 --> 00:34:51,930 I have a daughter who's 34, a son who's 32. Robert, 604 00:34:52,030 --> 00:34:55,650 I'm not one of these guys that ever came home and told them don't do something. 605 00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:59,130 But they watched me through my whole life. 606 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,330 Like one of the things I always did was, 607 00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:05,190 you never go to an ATM machine after dark, right? 608 00:35:05,450 --> 00:35:10,270 You always park your car at the very end of the parking lot so that as you 609 00:35:10,270 --> 00:35:14,750 walk, you can see everything. You sit, we sit on the back row at church , 610 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,670 right? I mean, so that you can observe right? 611 00:35:18,690 --> 00:35:21,630 In your observant and your head is always on a swivel. Now, 612 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:24,830 I never sat down and had that conversation with my kids, but they, 613 00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:28,670 and it's funny, within the last couple years, they've both come to me, you know, 614 00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:31,990 and my son, we go to an go to, go to get ready to go to an atm and he is like, 615 00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:35,230 dad, it's getting ready to get dark. We remember we can't. And I went, wow. 616 00:35:35,490 --> 00:35:39,420 And I was like, it, it hit me that, you know, they just watched me. But that's, 617 00:35:39,420 --> 00:35:41,460 that's what I would say is, you know, 618 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,860 not that I'm trying to make you the police or, you know, be, be, you know, 619 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,740 scared of everything cuz that's not what life's about, right? 620 00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:52,700 We wanna enjoy life, but you should always be aware of your surroundings. 621 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,220 And this is what I tell everybody that does investigations as a, 622 00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:01,580 as an investigator, you should doubt everything. Doubt leads to inquiry, 623 00:36:01,770 --> 00:36:03,140 inquiry leads to the truth. 624 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,780 And if you have something in your gut that tells you something's not right, 625 00:36:07,070 --> 00:36:07,903 trust your gut. 626 00:36:08,740 --> 00:36:11,840 You do see these cases where the husband is murdered the wife, 627 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,440 but he's out crying and acting innocent and help us. 628 00:36:16,460 --> 00:36:21,100 He goes public. How do you separate or, 629 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:24,220 or what do you see that tips you off? It's not the truth. 630 00:36:24,610 --> 00:36:28,100 Well, some of it is non-verbal behavior, Robert. So, 631 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,260 you know those clues that are non-verbal. So they're saying one thing, 632 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,180 but they're, they're non-verbals telling us something completely different. 633 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,780 You'll see that once in a while, they'll, 634 00:36:37,780 --> 00:36:42,450 they'll slip up and use passive language that's inappropriate, right? Like, 635 00:36:42,450 --> 00:36:45,810 wait a minute, why did you use that? Because she's just missing right now. 636 00:36:46,110 --> 00:36:49,930 Why did you tell us she was a great person and we haven't found her body yet? 637 00:36:49,930 --> 00:36:51,730 Right? It was reported as a mis you know, 638 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,930 when you've been in the business for as long as I have, 639 00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:58,690 and not that people don't trick me all the time, I'm sure, you know, 640 00:36:58,690 --> 00:37:01,090 and I've been fooled, like, like they're like anybody else. 641 00:37:01,230 --> 00:37:05,250 But you develop that sixth sense of, you know, when it's just not right. 642 00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:08,930 And so when it's not right, you have to ask more questions, 643 00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:12,490 you have to find more witnesses, you try to develop more evidence, you know, 644 00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:13,730 to get to the truth of the matter. 645 00:37:14,890 --> 00:37:16,140 When people are telling the truth, 646 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,980 do they provide more detail in what they're describing than somebody who's 647 00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:21,180 trying to make up the story? 648 00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:25,180 Well, I, I, I tell you, it's, it's really just the opposite of that, Robert. Oh, 649 00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:29,700 truthful. People tend to, first of all, they're very open in their demeanor, 650 00:37:30,070 --> 00:37:32,260 right? Mm-hmm. , it's very straightforward, 651 00:37:32,570 --> 00:37:37,340 it's succinct information. It's to the point, right? 652 00:37:37,610 --> 00:37:41,180 They're not trying to, you know mm-hmm. Add all these adjectives and, you know, 653 00:37:41,290 --> 00:37:43,980 make it more believable. They just, it's kinda like, 654 00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:47,140 they just tell it like it is. And that's, to me, they lean forward, 655 00:37:47,790 --> 00:37:51,690 truth tellers tend to lead forward, right? And, and they, 656 00:37:51,710 --> 00:37:54,850 and you can see it in their eyes. I mean, you know, cuz they're, 657 00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:56,890 it's almost like they're looking through you when, 658 00:37:56,890 --> 00:38:01,530 when people are telling the truth as opposed to a lot of times folks that are, 659 00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:05,330 that are being deceptive. You know, that's one of the things that I focus on is, 660 00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:10,330 is the mouth as well. Right? You people tell us a lot of signals with the mouth. 661 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,050 What is, from your experience, 662 00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:16,370 what's the type of criminal that scares you? 663 00:38:17,980 --> 00:38:21,230 Well, the, the, the type of criminal that scares me. You know, 664 00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:25,230 most criminals are narcissistic, right? Or what we call primary narcissist. 665 00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:29,150 Most of the rest of the world is, or, or in the United States, most of us, 666 00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:32,270 you know, we're secondary narcissists, right? We want to have our Facebook, 667 00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:36,060 we wanna tell you our story, but we we're not gonna kill somebody, um, 668 00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:39,780 and make it about them, which is what primary narcissists do. You know, the, 669 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,150 the ones that concern me the most are sociopaths because these, 670 00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:48,630 there's just no sense of remorse whatsoever there. And they actually enjoy it, 671 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,390 right? And, and, and these guys are skilled manipulators. 672 00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:54,510 They are the true con artist, 673 00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:57,910 and they typically turn out to be our repeat offenders quite often. 674 00:38:59,030 --> 00:39:03,080 Well, Joe Kennedy, thank you so much, uh, for sharing with us. And again, 675 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,400 the book for our listeners and viewers is solving cold cases, 676 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,960 investigation techniques and Protocol. I've got my copy here and it's do, 677 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,480 as you can see, it's dogeared and everything else. 678 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,200 I've learned a lot from it even after covering this all those years and, 679 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:19,800 and being a congressional investigator, 680 00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:24,520 every investigator ought to read your book. Thank you. 681 00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:28,480 Thank you so much, Robert. I've enjoyed my time with you today. God bless you, 682 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:29,313 sir. 683 00:39:30,780 --> 00:39:35,760 In our next episode, Joe Kennedy will walk us through cold case investigations. 684 00:39:36,350 --> 00:39:40,880 Kennedy started the first federal cold case unit at N C I S 685 00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:45,680 and he will enlighten us with how forensic investigative genetic genealogy 686 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,080 produces new leads for cold cases, 687 00:39:49,190 --> 00:39:53,000 thought to be unsolvable. In closing, 688 00:39:53,180 --> 00:39:55,880 here's my reporter's recap and reflections. 689 00:39:57,140 --> 00:40:02,000 Joe Kennedy's parents taught him to treat all people with dignity and respect. 690 00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,520 He did this with all of the criminals he encountered. 691 00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:11,160 Kennedy's unorthodox style of investigations paid off by getting 692 00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:14,480 confessions without using heavy handed tactics. 693 00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:19,760 You've been listening to the True Crime Reporter podcast, stay true, 694 00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:21,060 stay safe, 695 00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:25,640 and stay tuned for more stories from inside the crime Scene tape. 696 00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:28,640 This is Robert Riggs reporting.