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Trady nut, episode 200.

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So visualization or
imagery, mental rehearsal,

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whatever people wanna refer to as is
very powerful because neurologically,

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the brain cannot recognize the difference
between a kind of a mental simulation

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and a real experience. So the neurological
level, it's the same. Uh, and,

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and the way of kind of making sense
of that is think about a nightmare.

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When you have a nightmare.
It's an imagined experience,
but you could wake up,

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sweating, feeling the sensations of
fear, heart pounding, and so on. So,

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so we can use imagery to our advantage
in training. And, and this is one of my,

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I guess, mental training
practices in many ways,

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but it is useful in that way
as Tom utilizes it, which,

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and as I would do with
my traders in terms of,

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if we know the sorts of situations we
want to kind of be more willing to, um,

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embrace and accept and
work with, we can rehearse.

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The market's gonna do something.
Your job is now to fight it.

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The market never, ever runs
away. It's always there.

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That personal diary of trading will
make you a much better trader than.

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I could be right about the
direction, but wrong about.

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The trade. Don't focus
on the monetary side.

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Trying to make too much money on a
trade is what I have seen killed every

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trader.

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Your losses offer you some of the
greatest insight you can find into your

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mistakes.

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Relax, learn the process.

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Candle state pattern
training is a freaking trap.

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Don't.

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Be in a rush to become a millionaire.

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Let the market tell you
what the market wants to.

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Tell you.

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This podcast is not financial trading
for investing advice of any kind.

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What's up traders? Welcome to the 200th
episode of the Trading Up Podcast.

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So glad we got here.

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Can't believe I've done 200 of these
since starting trading up today.

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We've got Steve Ward on the show. Now.
Steve is a trading mindset expert.

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He's been working with traders for
over 17 years, Not just traders,

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but he's been working with traders at,
uh, some of the world's largest banks,

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high performing hedge funds, asset
managers, commodities, trading houses,

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whole lot of other things, proprietary
trading firms as well. So guys,

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if we are in for a treat today and we
go over things like the human condition,

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the behavioral behavior gap, uh,
the role of luck, outcome bias,

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comfort versus discomfort,
managing your emotions,

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and fear of missing out. So guys
that's coming up in the show, uh,

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he's also the author of a number of books,
so you wanna go and check those out.

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They're all gonna be in
the show notes. Now, um,

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we've got a video on the channel this
week that you also gonna want to check

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out, which is from Louis
Kelly, who's a past guest.

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He did a live stream on the show last
week, and it was quite a long live stream,

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but there was some
absolute nuggets in there.

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What we've done is taken those out,

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put them together in little video where
you're gonna see really what drives

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price and how the markets work
from a smart money point of view.

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So definitely go and check
that out folks. After, uh,

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watching this interview with Steve,

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other things happening here on
the 200th episode of Trading Out.

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We've got the Robot Lab live.

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We're basically putting the build that
we've just been spending the last six,

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seven weeks on, uh, into a demo account
to test over the course of a week.

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So we've got it looking pretty good,
uh, from a portfolio point of view.

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We're gonna run this on a, uh,
prop trading firm very soon.

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So if you guys do wanna check that
out, head over there trading now,

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look for the Robots link and
you'll find Robot Lab Live.

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You'll also find Robot Builders Club.

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We're teaching how to pretty much turn
your ideas into Trading Robots without

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doing any coding whatsoever.
So go and check that out.

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Now before we get into it,
two more things. The Scalping
challenge, it's a, uh,

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London Scalping challenge. Uh, I need
to, I need to hear from you folks.

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If you are keen, if you
trade the London session,

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if you think you're pretty good,

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we're gonna do a bit of a challenge
to see who is one of the best

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scalpers out there for
the London Open. Uh,

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so if you guys are scalping the London
Open and wanna come on the channel,

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then hit me up, Support
trading nut.com. Uh,

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your final links over there at Trading
Nut as well. Now, last but not least,

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we have confirmed a new
sponsor. It's Fidel Crest,

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and they will be coming on the show very
soon. So please go and check them out.

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I'll put some links, uh, in
the show notes description.

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They'll be over there on
trading nut.com as well.

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So please go and check them out. Give
them a warm, warm welcome. All right,

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folks, here we are, episode 200. Let's
get on with it. All right, folks,

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here we are on trading. We've
got Steve Ward in the house. Uh,

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Steve is a Trading mindset expert,

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and I'm gonna let you tell us all about
your background and how you got to doing

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what you do. Um,

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but I was re you were recommended
by Tom Hogar who came on the show,

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and we've just said
that this epically long,

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but yet fantastic episode where he
dove into a lot of mindset stuff.

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So he recommended you.

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So I could only imagine that it's gonna
be like 10 times better than, than, um,

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what we got with, with, uh, with
Tom. Probably not. I mean, that was,

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that was pretty awesome. So
if it is, that's fantastic.

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But do you wanna start off with, um,

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telling the guys a little bit about how
you got into what you do now and, and,

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um, I know it is quite
a fascinating story.

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Yeah, sure. So my initial work in,

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in the world of psychology was
a, as a sports psychology coach.

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So I was working with athletes and
teams elite level, so Olympians,

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international athletes teams in about
33 different sports all over the globe.

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Did that for a number of years, and then
just really through a random encounter,

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uh, with somebody on a, on a
a sports psychology course,

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was asked to come and see if I could, um,

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provide sports psychology coaching,
but to improve trading performance.

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This was about February, 2005, so
quite a long time ago now. And the,

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the basic background from their side
was they were very forward thinking.

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They had a, um, someone in house who
was a sort of the head of performance.

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He was an ex-professional tennis
player. He was looking at what they,

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what they were doing around trading
performance. And they helped,

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had great setup, great systems,
beautiful office, uh, in-house,

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cafeteria, serving healthy food.

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All all the things that you
could imagine it would be useful.

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What he observed was they spent a
lot of time talking about things like

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confidence, anxiety, worry,
fear, stress, pressure,

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but they were doing nothing
to train it or develop it. Uh,

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and often people coming from a,
from an elite tennis background,

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he could see that was an obvious gap,
uh, in performance. So, uh, we met,

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had a few conversations and
then basically invited me in.

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We ran some workshops for the,
for the traders initially,

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I guess with a sports slash performance
slant. And then we had to try and,

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I guess translate that into, um, trading,
uh, context. I had, at this point,

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I had literally zero knowledge or
experience of trading at all. So, uh,

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it was very fresh for me. Uh, and in the
end I was asked to, to work there, uh,

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on a contract three days a week.
So I did that for about a year.

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That gave me more time then to, to
learn about trading, to sit in on the,

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on the grad training program, do
some trading myself. Um, and yeah,

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then developed things, I guess more
specialized and, and more specific.

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And then really from, from then onwards,

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I think the last bit of sports work I did
was probably the winter Olympics 2006.

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And since then, it's all been,
um, trading investing related.

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So clients now are prop trading groups,
commodities, trading houses, banks,

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hedge funds, asset managers, energy
trading firms, really the whole spectrum,

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again, all over the world
generally from sort of, I guess,

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graduate and new traders all the way
through to some of my clients who are, uh,

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sort of like the market
wizard level, um, you know,

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real high level elite traders,
um, whole spectrum. So it, um,

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and then somewhere in the middle of that,

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I also got the chance to do a bit of work
with professional poker players on the

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European Pro tour, which was
a, again, it's a, a nice, um,

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insight into a related
field, high performance,
probabilistic decision making,

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risk taking, but was obviously a slightly
different lens to, to view it from.

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And, and what did you find, um,
uh, easiest to find results in?

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Was it trading, poker, or sports?

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Uh, I think, well, I think none of
them was easy to find results in,

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that's for sure. I think trading
for me, I find more complicated.

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I think there's a lot more, there's a
lot high level of uncontrollability,

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you know, it's very rarely the same.

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If you're a swimmer and you
turn up to a swimming event,

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the pool's gonna probably be 50
meters, uh, eight lanes long,

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the lane to the same width. You know,
you've got standardized lane ropes,

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you're gonna swim. If
it's a 50 meter butterfly,

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you're gonna swim 50 meters butterfly,

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you're not gonna swim 47.2 meters of
front crew. So there's a, you know,

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in some events tracks like swimming,
there's a high level of controllability.

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Athletes who I was working with
had very common challenges,

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almost not methodical,

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but there was almost like a
formula when people came to you,

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you could kind of work out pretty
easily what you needed to do. Um,

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what I found out in trading particularly
was there's a whole number of reasons

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that can be going on at any given time,
why a trader may or may not have made,

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you know, a good decision or not. So,
and I still find that really intriguing,

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just the amount of forces that are being
applied at any given time that might

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sway us one way or the
other. So, um, I mean,

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I've been doing it 17 and a half years
plus now, uh, and, and I still find it,

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you know, probably out the three areas,

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I still find it the most
fascinating and intriguing.

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Right. And, and so I mean, like,

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I've actually had quite a few traders on
the show that have used sports as like

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a sort of way to make their
trading successful. How did you,

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how did you sort of tweak
what you were doing with the,

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in the sporting world for the trading
world to, to make it relevant?

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And where did you see
the commonalities lie?

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So I think for me, what was
useful was, at the time,

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a lot of the trades I was
working with initially,

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a large proportion either had come from
a sporting background or had an interest

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in sports. So there was a, a relatability,

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a connection that kind
of made it easier for me.

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But I think themes around, I
mean, obviously competition,
particularly for the,

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for the younger guys I was working with
early on, that was really important.

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Things like confidence I think is a
theme across all high performance.

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Then concentration focus
versus distractability

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resiliency, particularly, you know,

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how do I deal with things
when they're not going well?

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That's obviously a very important
skill in trading where, you know,

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you could be losing, um,

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or some of my best traders are
losing around half of the time. So,

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so I think they're probably some of
the key themes that really important.

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Outside of that, I'm also a big proponent
of, of lifestyle, so the physiology,

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how we look after ourselves. And again,
that has a high level of relatability,

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I think, early on. So sort of
a mind body approach to it,

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to improving trading performance. Um,

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but then trading it isn't a sport because
it is, you know, it means sport often.

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You have a season and a off season, you
know when the match is gonna be played,

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you know, that that's the moment
you've gotta to prepare for.

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So trading's not like that, trading's
like this ongoing competition, um,

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almost 24 7 for some people. So,

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and we don't know when you're
gonna have to really, you know,

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when it's gonna be quieter or busier
when it's gonna be more volatile or less

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volatile. So I think
it's, there's a whole,

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there are some similarities maybe in
terms of some of the attributes that are,

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that are useful,

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but there's a whole world of difference
between what's required, um, as well.

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So, and that's really, I guess, you know,

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the last 17 years is me being
refining, starting with the base of,

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let's call it performance psychology and
then building upon that all the skills

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required for the nuances, um, of
trading, which also, you know,

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is about decision making under
conditions of uncertainty.

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So that's really what the
core of it's all about.

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00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:27,990
And that's where things like behavioral
finance have been quite useful. Um,

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I've used a lot of neuroscience,
um, in there as well. So yeah.

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So some similarities, but, but also
very different. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

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And, and like you say, you were
sitting down with a new trader at,

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00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:40,630
let's say they're at a
prop firm or something like
that. Yep. What would it be,

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what would be the first thing that you
would be trying to find out from that

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00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:46,310
trader and how would
you go about doing that?

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Well, the first thing that
always interests me, um,

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about anybody doing anything is, is
why they've chosen, chosen to do it.

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So that's always my starting point,
just kinda what brings you here, um,

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what is it you're looking for? Why
this and not something else. So that,

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that's always my first point. And then,
I mean, when I meet any of my clients,

218
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we normally spend the first hour or
two. I'm just curious about, you know,

219
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kind of why they're here,
um, what brought them here,

220
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,880
what was the kind of the path, um, their
sort of biography, how they grew up,

221
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where they went to university or if they
didn't go there, what they did instead.

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And that all intrigued me. So kind of
people's trajectory into the markets,

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uh, expectations, that was always
curious for me, you know, what,

224
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how did they expect it to
be going forward. And um,

225
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the insight I had quite early on was
that for most people, the feedback was,

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it was harder than I thought, and
it took longer than I thought.

227
00:12:40,810 --> 00:12:42,520
So people's expectations were, you know,

228
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maybe they've come from a
sports background or they've
played poker or they've

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been to kind of a really top through
a top level academic, uh, trajectory,

230
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and they have an expectation they'll
kind of come into the markets,

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pick it up pretty quickly,
start making money early. Uh,

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that's very rarely the
case, uh, for many people.

233
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And actually if they do start making
money early, it's often a curse.

234
00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:04,280
It's often one of the worst
things that can happen. So yeah,

235
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so I think that that's kind of my initial,

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I guess I'm just curious about them as
a person initially that that's my key

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interest and then we'll maybe get into
more, you know, the trading and so on.

238
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And then the first stage is really,
for me, it's more about, um,

239
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building competence and building just
general skills and knowledge more than the

240
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psychology. Um,

241
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,160
that probably has a bigger part to
play once people start trading live.

242
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,760
There's some early, early stage
work to be done that's useful.

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00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,600
But I think for most people,
they don't even understand the,

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the relevance of psychology until they've
been into the markets for a while,

245
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,240
made some money, lost some money.

246
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And is there,

247
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,760
is there any sort of information you
need to glean from them other than,

248
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,560
you know, trying to get their
background in terms of, um,

249
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:45,000
giving you a starting point as to
like, okay, well this guy is, you know,

250
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,760
let's say on a scale from one to
10, this person is a, is a seven,

251
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,120
so they don't need a lot, versus this
person is a three, they're miles away.

252
00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:56,920
Um, is there anything you do or
use to, to try and entertain it?

253
00:13:57,580 --> 00:14:00,840
Not, well, I don't do
a lot of work cam with,

254
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,800
with newer traders at that
level. So by time I'm seeing,

255
00:14:03,850 --> 00:14:08,660
if I'm seeing someone for coaching
in the last probably 10 years

256
00:14:08,660 --> 00:14:10,180
plus, they will have a, they'll be,

257
00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:12,340
have been in the markets
for at least two years.

258
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So I don't generally take anybody
for coaching who's not got, you know,

259
00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:17,900
a good level of market
experience. I don't,

260
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I don't believe that I will add
massive value, um, up until that point,

261
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:25,020
if I see them in a program
somewhere before that,

262
00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:26,340
we're probably doing some group training,

263
00:14:26,660 --> 00:14:29,340
probably some skills training or just
creating some stuff around the process.

264
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,540
But the one thing that I do do
quite early, which I think does,

265
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:33,980
which might align to your question,

266
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:39,390
is we will do some psychometric testing
and we'll look at people's personality

267
00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:42,950
profiles and then we'll utilize
that for two, two reasons.

268
00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:47,710
One is to enable them to get a bit more
insight into who they are and what their

269
00:14:47,710 --> 00:14:48,750
preferences might be,

270
00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:53,440
but also so that as they're moving through
their developmental stages early on,

271
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we can start to maybe shape the
markets that we, that they're put into.

272
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And it might also help us to shape the
approaches and their strategy so that

273
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they align with their
personality preferences. So, um,

274
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for a lot of people that's very much
trial and error. Um, I think the,

275
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the danger for some people is,
particularly in the retail world,

276
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they gravitate towards a person, you know,

277
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,800
a well known coach or mentor and
they try to learn it their way,

278
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,200
which would be like, you know,
everybody gravitating towards, you know,

279
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,120
someone like say Sain Bolt, if it
simple, we all wanna be sprinters.

280
00:15:24,260 --> 00:15:27,560
The reality is we are not all gonna
be great sprinters and there might be

281
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somebody else somewhere else, you know,

282
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:32,640
mo farra in the marathon camp
where some of us went over to him,

283
00:15:32,770 --> 00:15:34,400
we would do significantly better.

284
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:39,040
So we are not all gonna be able to
trade in the way that the, you know,

285
00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:42,040
a certain mentor is gonna be.
And this is true institutionally.

286
00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:46,400
So if we can understand those preferences
and where our strengths are and where

287
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,520
our interests are and our values
and all those things align,

288
00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:54,480
it can help us to maybe earlier on, get
people onto sort of the right track,

289
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,760
therefore increasing chances of success.

290
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,520
Right. And, and just as a bit of a sort
of side note, I mean, have you had like,

291
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,840
I mean, you obviously dealing with guys
who have been trading for a while, they,

292
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,080
they've got, you know, I'm
guessing most of them are,

293
00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:10,360
have either been profitable or are
profitable traders, you know, cuz they're,

294
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,480
they're doing it for a living. Um,

295
00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:16,320
what's the biggest success story you've
had in what you've done where you've

296
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,760
sort of come away going, man, I've,
you know, this is something, this guy,

297
00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:24,720
I saw him, he was in this, this position,
and after working with the person for,

298
00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:28,640
or, or even the firm perhaps
for x number of months, years,

299
00:16:28,670 --> 00:16:31,880
you've managed to get them
to achieve this. Have you,

300
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,000
have you got any sort of good
success stories like that?

301
00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:36,720
Um, well thankfully I've
got a number. I mean,

302
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,400
obviously I can't share them in too
much detail. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Um,

303
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,440
I've actually had a guy recently last
year, hedge fund guy, uh, young trader,

304
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,440
young hedge fund trader. Um, and he's,

305
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:51,240
and it ties into the personality thing
cuz he's been struggling to kind of find

306
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,720
his way of, of, of trading and he's had a,

307
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:58,120
a senior PM working with him
and they've got opposing styles.

308
00:16:58,170 --> 00:17:02,200
So he's trying to find his way and he's
got a particular way of trading that he

309
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,280
likes to, to do and where he's best,

310
00:17:04,420 --> 00:17:08,000
but it doesn't align with what a
senior PM thinks he should be doing.

311
00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:10,440
So they've been having this
conflict ongoing anyway,

312
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,760
during the first part of the coaching,

313
00:17:12,610 --> 00:17:17,560
we managed to get enough confidence in,
in the, the trader I was coaching to,

314
00:17:17,850 --> 00:17:20,200
to really to do it his way and,

315
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,800
and take that leap of faith and
just do it your way, you know,

316
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,680
and then see what happens. And
that got a good results early on.

317
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,960
Therefore he got a bit more buy-in from
the senior pm He had a number for the

318
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,400
year he wanted to make, which was a,
which was a good number. Uh, which he, he,

319
00:17:34,450 --> 00:17:37,920
he did multiple, um, xs of, um,

320
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,880
predominant is a result of just
really trusting in himself,

321
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,560
being himself, not trying
to be somebody else,

322
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,680
but having the confidence
to do it in his own way.

323
00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:51,000
This year he's continued
to grow from that.

324
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,960
Obviously we've had some interesting,
uh, market conditions. He,

325
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,960
in his mind has got a number,
I can't say what it is,

326
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,040
but where he sees the very
best of the best operate.

327
00:18:00,780 --> 00:18:05,360
And he at the moment is a very small
margin away from achieving that this year.

328
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,560
And again, it's multiples of, multiples
of what he made last year. Right. Um,

329
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,080
and again,

330
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,520
that's been this increasing competence
and growth in who he is and doing things

331
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,040
as, as he would do them. Um, and,

332
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,840
and a really strong
commitment to developing

333
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,440
himself as a trader. So as
much as we are seeing the, the,

334
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,360
the exponential growth in p and l
embedded into that is a lot of hard

335
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,680
work. You know, kind of really
being curious about him,

336
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,600
how he does what he does, how to
do it better doing the work. Um,

337
00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:41,080
so yeah, so that's probably been a top
and tail two interesting stories. So.

338
00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:44,320
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339
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,880
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340
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,560
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341
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342
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343
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,400
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344
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:00,860
description.

345
00:19:00,860 --> 00:19:04,080
Are you able to tell us what sort of
fundamental things you are able to

346
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,760
implement that helped make the
shift for that trader? Yeah.

347
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:10,760
Well, I mean there's a drawdown is, is um,

348
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:13,120
is a term that's common for trade.

349
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,000
So everyone kind of knows what it is and
probably everyone's been through it and

350
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,360
everyone experiences it in different
ways and for different reasons.

351
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,800
So one observation, I mean, often
get asked by people, you know,

352
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,680
kind of what's the formula for getting
through drawdown or what's the formula

353
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,080
for, you know, holding winning traits
for longer. There is some commonalities,

354
00:19:30,340 --> 00:19:32,320
but everybody's unique. So the, you know,

355
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,000
when we experience
something in the market,

356
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,280
we're experiencing the same phenomena,

357
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,320
but for different reasons and
in different ways. But I mean,

358
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,000
some of the things I'll always come
back down to are, first of all,

359
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,840
you've gotta accept a situation you're
in. You know, so if you're losing money,

360
00:19:45,050 --> 00:19:47,800
there's no point trying to deny
the fact you are losing money.

361
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,960
And there's no point being in a situation
where you're just languishing and

362
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,520
hoping that you're gonna
start making money again soon.

363
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,040
So it has to be kind of an acc a
realistic acceptance of the situation.

364
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,520
That's my starting point. You
don't wanna be here, you know,

365
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,640
it could be pretty dreadful, but
this is where you are at. So that,

366
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,400
that is the anchoring point they
may have already done. And if not,

367
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560
we might do, or the question I
would ask is, what's changed?

368
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:15,440
So we'd do some reflection.

369
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,020
Cause if you were making money and now
you are not and it's outside of the,

370
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:22,500
the normal range, the question
is, well what's changed?

371
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,660
And it can only be two things
really in simple terms.

372
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:26,300
Either the market conditions have changed,

373
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:30,260
which it is probably in nine
times out of 10 situations or

374
00:20:30,910 --> 00:20:35,180
they've changed, they're doing something
differently or a combination of both.

375
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:39,300
So we wanna get some insights into maybe
what has changed cuz that will then

376
00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,780
determine in terms of action going
forward, what we might need to do.

377
00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:46,300
Is it work with the trader? Is it work
around, you know, them internally?

378
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:49,440
Is it work, work around adjusting what
they're doing to the market conditions.

379
00:20:51,050 --> 00:20:54,120
On top of that, we've also gotta
help to kind of deal with the, um,

380
00:20:54,340 --> 00:20:58,360
the confidence slash resiliency of
getting through, um, the tough period.

381
00:20:58,740 --> 00:21:00,760
And that varies again
for different people.

382
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,320
Some people are are pretty good at
getting through these situations,

383
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,280
other people are less so. But the things
I've been looking at is, you know,

384
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,560
can we, once we've accepted a situation,
can we see it in a more useful way?

385
00:21:11,610 --> 00:21:16,400
So could this be, it's not gonna be a
period of, of, um, of earning potentially,

386
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,200
but it could be a period of
learning and reflection. In fact,

387
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,720
I would say for most traders,

388
00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:25,680
the majority of learning and development
is done when they are in draw down or

389
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,840
having setbacks. Very little
learning and development goes on.

390
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,960
Traders are doing well and making money,
they're just too busy just carrying on,

391
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,440
hoping they're gonna keep making money.

392
00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:37,560
So it's a really key period where
traders can improve themselves,

393
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,960
make their process more robust,
make them more robust. Um,

394
00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:43,760
it might be there having particular
thoughts and the emotions that are showing

395
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,000
up that might be troublesome.

396
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,360
So we'd also wanna do some
work around how we do that.

397
00:21:47,540 --> 00:21:52,320
But we're always keeping the baseline is
what's the behavior that you need to do

398
00:21:52,850 --> 00:21:57,760
in this moment or today or tomorrow
that's gonna be effective in moving

399
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,080
you forward. Uh, and that's the key.
So again, it's like a, you know,

400
00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:06,150
each a drawdown is, is a contextual
shift when you're making money,

401
00:22:06,150 --> 00:22:07,110
it's one context.

402
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,870
So behaviors that are useful are
different to when you're in draw down.

403
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:14,070
So we've always gotta be thinking about
right in draw down what's important,

404
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:19,230
what do I need to focus on, what do
I need to be doing moment to moment,

405
00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:21,590
day to day. And we've gotta
keep the focus on that.

406
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:24,750
And then what happens to many people is
even if they know that it's the thoughts

407
00:22:24,750 --> 00:22:27,110
and the emotions that are showing
up are getting in their way.

408
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,190
So we've gotta be clear about what we
are doing and be managing the experience

409
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:36,230
around that so that we can keep
doing what we're doing ongoing.

410
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:37,350
Which for some people,

411
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:40,670
just down to the nature of the drawdown
could be for a significant period of

412
00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:43,590
time. I mean, I've had traders go
through drawdown for, you know,

413
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:44,990
getting close to a year and,

414
00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:47,790
and in some cases probably beyond
before they come out of it fully.

415
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,950
So that's tough. That's really tough.
Yeah, it's tough. It's tough for a month.

416
00:22:53,930 --> 00:22:57,230
And was this traders a particular drawdown
and we'll we'll sort of move on after

417
00:22:57,230 --> 00:23:02,190
this. Was it due to the market having
changed or was it other external factors.

418
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:05,600
Market changed, followed by his,

419
00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:10,560
an unhelpful reaction on his
side to try to correct it?

420
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,120
Right, right.

421
00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:14,760
So, so, and this is, this is
a key thing. You know, the,

422
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,200
the a market change or any kind of event
that's market driven is outside the

423
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:20,033
trader's control.

424
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,550
So all the trader can control
is how do I respond to,

425
00:23:24,550 --> 00:23:26,910
and I use that word intention
as opposed to react.

426
00:23:26,910 --> 00:23:30,830
So how do I respond to the events
that are going on in the market?

427
00:23:30,930 --> 00:23:32,030
And over time,

428
00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:36,150
what I'm trying to do with my clients is
essentially a bit feel like a playbook

429
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,870
of, in all the different scenarios
you might fail, find yourself in,

430
00:23:39,870 --> 00:23:40,560
in the market.

431
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,520
We want a playbook for responding
effectively that suits you as an

432
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,810
individual in that situation. So that
as they progress through their career,

433
00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:51,210
whether they are having, you know,

434
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,050
a a a long extended winning period
can be equally as dangerous as a long

435
00:23:56,290 --> 00:23:59,250
extended losing period. You
need a playbook for both. Uh,

436
00:23:59,250 --> 00:24:02,330
when volatility suddenly increases,
what's the playbook? You know,

437
00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:05,490
what are you gonna do that's
right for you in that situation?

438
00:24:05,490 --> 00:24:06,930
It's gonna be different for all people,

439
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:11,450
but each individual trader needs to
think about the context they're gonna

440
00:24:11,450 --> 00:24:12,610
encounter in the,

441
00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:17,050
in the markets and what their own
individual response is gonna be to that in

442
00:24:17,050 --> 00:24:20,490
terms of behavior, what thoughts might
show up, how I'm gonna manage those,

443
00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:24,090
what emotions might show up, how I'm
gonna manage those and so on. So,

444
00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:26,210
and I think that's what
experience gives you,

445
00:24:26,650 --> 00:24:30,810
providing you to have that experience
is, um, combined with intention,

446
00:24:30,810 --> 00:24:32,370
reflection, and development.

447
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,490
Mm. And and I speak this why people
reach out to the likes of you to,

448
00:24:35,580 --> 00:24:39,850
to try and get their external view on
what they're doing. Cuz they just can't,

449
00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:42,250
you can't see the word for the trees,
you know, if you were at the coal face,

450
00:24:42,250 --> 00:24:42,960
right?

451
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,410
Yeah, it's difficult sometimes, you know,
there's a, there's a lot going on and,

452
00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:49,730
and the reality of trading
as well, um, ironically,

453
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:54,690
and some of my clients sit on trading
floors of another 150 to 200 people is it

454
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:58,800
can be very lonely. So when, when you're
having a really tough time, you know,

455
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,520
I've got most of,

456
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,200
I would say probably most of my clients
won't be talking to their partners at

457
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,033
home about it.

458
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:08,360
They won't wanna be talking to friends
outside of their trading social network

459
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:09,193
about it.

460
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:12,920
Very often they don't wanna talk to their
friends within their trading network

461
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760
about it. So that, so a lot
of people don't have, um,

462
00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:20,600
a person who understands
what they do and the

463
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,560
challenges and who they
can open up and say,

464
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,400
and this is how I'm feeling
about it, this is, you know,

465
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,200
I'm struggling with this or I
need some help with this. Um,

466
00:25:29,230 --> 00:25:33,840
it's getting easier for people as
certainly from 2005 to now, um,

467
00:25:34,270 --> 00:25:36,280
it's a lot. There's probably
more people available,

468
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:41,160
but trading inherently is
still quite a, a lonely, um,

469
00:25:41,230 --> 00:25:43,560
occupation for many people. So it, um.

470
00:25:44,270 --> 00:25:48,360
Yeah. So, so reaching out to someone like
yourself is, is a way forward now, um,

471
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,320
let's, we've had a few examples of
individuals and you know, how, uh,

472
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,320
people you've dealt with have
overcome their, you know,

473
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,920
trading psychology and mindset issues.

474
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,520
Let's dive in a little bit more around
sort of the general approach of,

475
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,480
you know, trading, uh,

476
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,440
mindset issues and how to resolve
them and why we have them.

477
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:08,200
And maybe starting off
with like, for example,

478
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,480
the human condition and what is wrong
with us? Why can't normal human, uh,

479
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,280
behaviors or emotions help us be
successful in the markets from the,

480
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:17,120
from the outset?

481
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,050
Well, nothing's wrong with us. I think
that's a starting point. Uh, you know,

482
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:27,130
all humans are fallible. I think
George so talks about fallibility. So,

483
00:26:27,130 --> 00:26:31,050
you know, we're all fallible. Um, and
I, but, but, but, but we are humans.

484
00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:32,770
So I think, I think the
starting point is we have,

485
00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:35,650
we have to accept the fact
that we are human. Uh,

486
00:26:35,650 --> 00:26:38,010
and there are some great
things about that. Um,

487
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:40,690
and of course I think there's great,
there are some challenges to that as well,

488
00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:42,570
which we have to learn to,
to manage and navigate.

489
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:46,320
So human condition
really is about the, um,

490
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:49,960
the events and circumstances
happen to us in, in sort of the,

491
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,120
the journey of life saying
we're born at the end, we die.

492
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:57,640
And there's all the stuff that goes on
in between that learning highs, lows,

493
00:26:58,030 --> 00:27:02,560
good, bad emotions, thoughts,
sensations in her body,

494
00:27:02,580 --> 00:27:04,440
all of that is part of
that human condition,

495
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,000
which essentially we could also kind,

496
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,280
I guess micro package into probably the
trading condition, which is a, you know,

497
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:10,680
there's a,

498
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520
I start trading the birth of me as a
trader at some point I give up trading the

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,040
death of me as a trader as such. And then
there's all the highs, lows, emotions,

500
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,400
thoughts that come with
that. What happens in the,

501
00:27:22,770 --> 00:27:26,280
um, trading condition, particularly
as a reflection of human condition,

502
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,080
is that when we are taking risk
under conditions of uncertainty,

503
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,800
often many of the ways in which we
would want to think that would be

504
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,640
useful for us may not be what comes
natural as part of the human condition.

505
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:44,760
So for us, in evolutionary
terms to survive and to thrive,

506
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,560
we also adapt ways of thinking and
feeling that biologically primed are

507
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,800
useful for us. And often lots
of those core instincts, um,

508
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,720
and behaviors are not the same ones
that are gonna be helpful for us in the

509
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:57,920
markets.

510
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,800
And that's what I think behavioral finance
and behavioral economics has really

511
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,240
kind of been useful in urban
kind of to, to understand. Um,

512
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,040
so what it means is, uh, much as in
life as we go through life of humans,

513
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,960
people need to shape how they think
to perform well in their, you know,

514
00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:18,720
as partners, as sons parents.
Uh, in our roles in trading,

515
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,360
we have to do the same thing. You
know, as you go into the markets,

516
00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,280
you are bringing in your current
set of beliefs, your, you know,

517
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,320
your mindset and how you do things.

518
00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:30,040
And some of those actually
based on your prior experiences.

519
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,160
So I've had one trader,

520
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,280
I worked with a young trader who was a
phenomenal trader from a very early part,

521
00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:39,920
had played chess to a high level as
a youngster and had played poker,

522
00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:44,440
uh, through university to a very
high level. And what happened was,

523
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,960
as he came into the markets
that shaping in his early,

524
00:28:48,010 --> 00:28:52,360
in the early life with two different
tracks had enabled him to come into the

525
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,980
markets with a mindset that
already enabled him to understand

526
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,220
lots of what was required for
success was kind of already in place.

527
00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:03,060
Other people are coming in
with none of that at all.

528
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:07,660
So we all gonna come into it not just
as humans, but as different humans.

529
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:10,500
So we're gonna find something
easier and or harder.

530
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:11,820
But then as we go through the markets,

531
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,740
the goal is to really start to
understand yourself as a risk taker

532
00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:21,340
and decision maker under these conditions
of uncertainty. And then to try and,

533
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:25,780
I guess grasp hold of some
of the common themes and, um,

534
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:28,620
approaches that can be
useful for all people,

535
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,740
but also to understand your
more individual nuances.

536
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:36,500
And essentially the goal is to shape
a mindset and a set of behaviors

537
00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:39,940
that enables you to perform
well under market conditions.

538
00:29:39,940 --> 00:29:44,460
And there'll be some commonalities and
some differences amongst people, um, as,

539
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:45,580
as you go about doing that.

540
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,770
Okay. Okay. I think, I think that
sort that answers the question. Now,

541
00:29:49,170 --> 00:29:49,330
interesting.

542
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:52,930
You say somebody who plays chess were
from a young age was able to be quite

543
00:29:52,930 --> 00:29:55,410
successful. I mean, I've heard
that before where there's,

544
00:29:55,410 --> 00:29:59,250
there was another podcaster,
um, quite a famous podcaster,

545
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,530
I can't remember his name off
the top of my head, but anyway,

546
00:30:01,530 --> 00:30:03,810
he was a chess sort of
genius when he was a kid.

547
00:30:03,930 --> 00:30:06,330
Ended up working for a
hedge fund then like,

548
00:30:06,330 --> 00:30:09,610
became sort of semi-famous and
started podcasting. What, what,

549
00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:13,610
what do you think it is about people being
very good at chess that allows him to

550
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:15,890
be a, you know, have a better chance
of being successful at trading?

551
00:30:16,660 --> 00:30:20,800
I'm not saying chess per se,
um, but I think, you know,

552
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,600
chess is a strategic thinking game
where often you are also thinking

553
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,120
about 1, 2, 3 moves ahead of the games
and not just what's gonna happen right

554
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,880
now, but I think the idea of
strategy of thinking ahead, you know,

555
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,200
you're playing against another person,

556
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,280
you're trying to understand that person
and what they might do if I do this,

557
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,040
what are they thinking they might do this
and what will I do in response if you

558
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,560
think about it in the markets? Yeah,

559
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,840
and I think Paul Truda Jones
talks about this a lot. You know,

560
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,400
if you think about the markets as a
collection of people and if, you know, if,

561
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,640
if, if the market is thinking this,
what will the market do? Not just,

562
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,480
here's what I wanna do with
my strategy, but you know,

563
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,080
who else is in the market? How
are they thinking about price?

564
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,760
And if they're thinking about price
like this, how are they feeling?

565
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,320
If they're feeling this,
what might they do?

566
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,920
And therefore where will price go
and what does that mean for me?

567
00:31:07,630 --> 00:31:10,920
I think once you get into that type of
thinking, that's really useful. But,

568
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:15,840
you know, chess is a, is a,
it's a cognitive thinking
strategy game, you know,

569
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,600
which I think if you align it into some
forms of trading, gives you an edge. Um,

570
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:25,160
some traders don't need to
be super strategic. Some
traders are very feel based.

571
00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:29,640
Um, so that, so I don't think all
chess players make great traders,

572
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,080
but I think chess can give you some
skills that will enable you to be a good

573
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,360
trader. But chess combined with poker,

574
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,680
which is a risk taking game where you
are making decisions and there is some

575
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,520
uncertainty and you are thinking about
probability and essentially in poker you

576
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:46,353
are losing a lot.

577
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:50,320
And this is one of my key insights is
what poker players are good at is they're

578
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,960
good at losing or good poker players
are good at losing, they're good losers.

579
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,440
Yeah. And this will tie
into what, you know,

580
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,280
what Tom talks about with his book and
I'm sure came out and the podcast about,

581
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,000
you know, the best loser wins. You've
got to be good at losing. And in fact,

582
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,360
I literally having a conversation
yesterday, uh, with a,

583
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,560
with a hedge fund client and
um, we'd been together, uh,

584
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,920
with some other people from the
firm on an offsite recently.

585
00:32:12,420 --> 00:32:15,560
And he was saying about how it was
interesting that lots of people he was

586
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,680
talking to on the offsite, um,
colleagues of his who had come from, um,

587
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,120
high level sports backgrounds
or those that have played poker,

588
00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:28,080
his insight yesterday as we were talking
about dealing with losses was they had

589
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,400
an advantage cuz they'd had
years and years and years of,

590
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:33,320
of learning how to lose,

591
00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:37,120
how to deal with the loss and how to
kind of get back in the game after the

592
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:37,920
loss. And he and he,

593
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,240
he kind of had this realization that
having not come from a poker or a sports

594
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,840
background, if he could have
changed something about his life,

595
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:49,600
that's one thing he would like to have
had was that opportunity to learn how to

596
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,480
be a good loser before getting into
the market. So I think, you know,

597
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,000
chess poker combinations
quite interesting.

598
00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:59,720
We could maybe add sport in there
again now anyone on their own doesn't

599
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,000
determine that you'd be a great trader.

600
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,040
There's still many nuance skills to learn,

601
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:07,800
but I think they can give you something
useful that might just give you a little

602
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,040
bit of a head start. Mm-hmm.

603
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:09,920
<Affirmative>. And I think with the,

604
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,160
the other thing with poker is
obviously you're losing money as well,

605
00:33:12,570 --> 00:33:14,360
so it's almost exactly.

606
00:33:14,550 --> 00:33:15,720
Your own money. Yeah.

607
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,600
Often. Yeah, exactly. So, um, what about
like, I mean there's a sort of common,

608
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:23,240
I suppose issue with,
with people coming into,

609
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,840
into trading is that they know what
to do, they've been taught what to do,

610
00:33:27,420 --> 00:33:30,360
but they don't seem to be able to do it.

611
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,200
So there's that sort of gap
between the two. I mean,

612
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,960
can you talk a little bit about that?

613
00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:38,190
Yeah, so I think, I think
everyone who's traded,

614
00:33:38,190 --> 00:33:41,950
you can think of multiple times
where in a given situation, you know,

615
00:33:41,950 --> 00:33:45,070
you know you should stay in the winning
trade or you know, easy, you know,

616
00:33:45,070 --> 00:33:49,230
you should get out of a losing trade
and for whatever reasons you don't. Uh,

617
00:33:49,230 --> 00:33:53,070
now there are some times when actually,
and this is true for skilled traders,

618
00:33:53,070 --> 00:33:57,630
where you wouldn't do what you originally
planned to do so you would flex and

619
00:33:57,630 --> 00:34:01,190
then it gets even more difficult cuz now
you've gotta work about when do I stick

620
00:34:01,190 --> 00:34:05,350
and when do I flex? But for most
people at the basic level, uh,

621
00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:07,870
there can be a number of
reasons why that gap exists.

622
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,670
So for some people the gap actually is
just competence and knowledge. So they,

623
00:34:11,670 --> 00:34:13,750
they, they know what they want to do,

624
00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:18,470
but actually that knowledge isn't well
founded enough to really for them to kind

625
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:20,630
of trust in or believe or act upon it. So,

626
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:25,110
so there's not a high enough level of
competence, uh, to really act on it. So,

627
00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:28,270
but let's assume once you've
got some level of competence,

628
00:34:28,270 --> 00:34:31,870
you've got some level of strategy,
which is, which is effective. Um,

629
00:34:31,870 --> 00:34:34,030
why are we not sticking to it often?

630
00:34:34,030 --> 00:34:37,910
It's because there's some kind of change
in our state when it comes to actually

631
00:34:37,910 --> 00:34:41,630
make the decision. So, you know, mentally
or emotionally or physiologically,

632
00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:46,590
physically, um, our state is changing
and therefore makes it harder,

633
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,270
um, to do the behavior in the reality.
Uh, and we see this all the time here.

634
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:52,350
We see in sport, you know,

635
00:34:52,350 --> 00:34:55,790
taking a penalty on the training ground
is different to doing it in a World Cup

636
00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:58,870
file in front of a hundred thousand
people in a stadium and whatever, 20,

637
00:34:58,870 --> 00:35:03,190
30 million watching it on tv. So, you
know, when we get these changes in our,

638
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:05,110
in our physical, mental emotional state,

639
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:07,710
it does change changes our
perception of what we're seeing.

640
00:35:07,710 --> 00:35:12,270
It changes how we feel, uh, it changes
how we might then react. If we go into,

641
00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:14,990
uh, if we feel threatened and we
go into fight flight response,

642
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:18,630
that's gonna change our reactivity
and what we think we might want to do,

643
00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:23,160
then we've gotta layer into that things
like ego, which can start to play a,

644
00:35:23,310 --> 00:35:26,680
a role, um, so that, you
know, uh, our, our mindset,

645
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:30,120
the thoughts that might show up in
that moment, um, as well as emotion.

646
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,800
So a whole number of forces can be applied
that now make it more difficult. Um,

647
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:39,900
and I think in experienced
traders they learn to manage that

648
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:42,220
more effectively and they're
used to it. You know,

649
00:35:42,220 --> 00:35:46,700
if you have a a constant
stress, you can buy exposure,

650
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:49,180
familiarity become, you
know, conditioned to it.

651
00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:52,300
So it's often harder for newer
traders, but also, you know,

652
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:56,900
if you're taking huge amounts of risk
greater than you would feel comfortable

653
00:35:56,900 --> 00:36:00,900
with, then all of that response becomes
increased, makes it even harder.

654
00:36:01,030 --> 00:36:03,780
If your risk is more moderate,
if the consequences are lower,

655
00:36:03,780 --> 00:36:06,740
you're gonna have less stuff showing
up that you've gotta kind of work with.

656
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,620
So it's really, again,

657
00:36:08,620 --> 00:36:12,180
it's about acknowledging that it is gonna
be a part of the trading experience,

658
00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:15,700
that quite often there are gonna be
times when you will know what to do,

659
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,660
but for thoughts, emotions,
sensations in the body, urges,

660
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:25,300
impulses are gonna show up and you need
a toolkit to be able to manage it when

661
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:29,100
it shows up, essentially what you wanna
do is reduce how much stuff shows up.

662
00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:31,540
That's where you need a good
process. You need to be competent,

663
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,220
you need to manage your risk well,
kind of good solid trading behaviors,

664
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:36,053
a bit like a funnel.

665
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:41,140
So reduce what shows up and then
be skillful in managing what shows

666
00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:45,140
up and what a lot of people try and do
is they want to get rid of or they want

667
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:46,500
to avoid, um,

668
00:36:46,610 --> 00:36:51,180
what shows up rather than try and almost
like embrace it and work with it. And,

669
00:36:51,180 --> 00:36:55,140
and for many people the attempts to
avoid or control what shows up in these

670
00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:59,340
moments is more problematic
than what shows up. Um,

671
00:36:59,340 --> 00:37:01,860
and that's often cuz people have been
mis misled, you know, things like,

672
00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:04,620
you know, trade without fear,
these kind of things, um,

673
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:07,980
which I personally don't believe
is a, is a useful, um, paradigm.

674
00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:10,460
I think people should
embrace that, you know,

675
00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:13,700
anxiety and fear are gonna be a part of
the experience and then just learn to

676
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:14,620
manage it. Um.

677
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,060
And so, so what sort of
example would you give to,

678
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:21,180
to somebody your coaching around
trying to embrace this, uh,

679
00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:24,740
thing that appeared at
the wrong time? <laugh>?

680
00:37:24,970 --> 00:37:29,500
Yeah, well, well the thing for me that
is, there has to be a willingness.

681
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:30,660
If you're gonna go into trading,

682
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:36,700
we'll do a metaphor first and we'll
get back into trading. If I want to,

683
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:39,380
to start, if I wanna run
a marathon for example,

684
00:37:40,330 --> 00:37:44,860
it's 26.2 miles. And if I'm not, if
I'm not, you know, a trained runner,

685
00:37:44,860 --> 00:37:48,700
I've gotta do the training to get to
the point that I can run 26.2 miles,

686
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:50,780
then I've gotta run the 26.2 miles.

687
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,940
Now anybody with any sense of what that
takes will know that it's gonna be hard.

688
00:37:56,250 --> 00:37:59,340
It's gonna take a lot of dedication and
commitment and it's gonna be massively

689
00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:04,200
uncomfortable and at times quite painful
and miserable. So you've got to have a,

690
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,560
a kind of a combination of commitment
to want to do it and the willingness to

691
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,480
embrace what comes with it. And
that's the same in trading. You know,

692
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,760
once you get into trading and you've
been in it for a while and so you

693
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,600
understand a bit better,

694
00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:19,400
you have to have a point of real
realization which goes, this is how it is,

695
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:24,000
you know, it, it, it, i, i dunno many
traders that like losing that some are,

696
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,680
some are better at losing than others in
terms of they can deal with it better,

697
00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:30,600
but I dunno, people that
like it or want to do it,

698
00:38:30,890 --> 00:38:35,520
so stuff is showing up. Um, holding onto
winning trades equally as difficult,

699
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,600
you know, getting the sizing right, uh,
pulling the trigger after a losing run.

700
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,320
You know, all these things
are quite challenging.

701
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,680
You've just gotta get better at them.
Um, but if you try and avoid them,

702
00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:47,240
you can't get better at them.

703
00:38:47,290 --> 00:38:49,800
So the only way to get better
at them is by doing them.

704
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,680
So that's gotta start
with a commitment to,

705
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:56,760
I'm gonna put myself into these
situations and I'm willing to do that.

706
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:01,470
And almost like, um, for lots of my
clients as part of their preparation,

707
00:39:01,470 --> 00:39:02,870
they'll do a piece where they'll go, Okay,

708
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:06,950
what am I willing to experience
today in order to trade at my best?

709
00:39:07,210 --> 00:39:11,390
And that'll be okay. I need to be willing
to, um, have to maybe manage my ego.

710
00:39:11,390 --> 00:39:15,590
I'll have to be willing to manage the
doubt that might show up when I wanna put

711
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:19,750
on a trade. I might have to be
willing to, um, deal with, um,

712
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:22,510
the fear of missing out that might
show up today. So I think, you know,

713
00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:26,750
starting the trading session
almost with a reminder that, okay,

714
00:39:26,750 --> 00:39:29,790
it's like an athlete, you know,
if I'm gonna do a hard run today,

715
00:39:30,430 --> 00:39:32,360
I would start off with
this is a, you know,

716
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,320
a five mile fast paced run at
maximum heart rate close to it.

717
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,320
It's gonna be really painful.

718
00:39:37,610 --> 00:39:42,480
Do you know what I'm willing to
experience that in the service of moving

719
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,200
closer towards my goal and
being the athlete I wanna be.

720
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,520
And I think traders need to
have that same mentality.

721
00:39:48,130 --> 00:39:51,800
If we're willing to experience the
discomforts that come with trading,

722
00:39:52,830 --> 00:39:56,780
we will put ourself into those situations
so we can learn how to cope with them,

723
00:39:56,780 --> 00:39:57,980
which is massively powerful.

724
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,340
But also we start to change our
relationship to what shows up.

725
00:40:02,860 --> 00:40:06,250
We start to change our relationship
to the thoughts that show up to the

726
00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:06,730
emotions,

727
00:40:06,730 --> 00:40:11,170
to the sensations in a way that enables
us to actually manage it and navigate it

728
00:40:11,170 --> 00:40:15,010
more effectively and over time to be
more consistent with what matters,

729
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:18,250
which is the behaviors
underneath all of that.

730
00:40:18,250 --> 00:40:20,810
Because it's the behavior
that makes or loses you money,

731
00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:23,850
you've gotta press the trigger or
not press it. That's the behavior.

732
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:27,450
The thought or the emotion doesn't
make you or lose you any money.

733
00:40:28,090 --> 00:40:30,820
It's what you do while you are
having the thought or the emotion.

734
00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:34,020
So that's what we need to learn how
to manage. So, uh, yeah, commitment,

735
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,060
willingness, some acceptance, and then
just learning to manage, you know,

736
00:40:38,060 --> 00:40:40,340
some of the sort of the finer
techniques would be about how,

737
00:40:40,340 --> 00:40:42,340
how we manage the thoughts
and emotions that show up.

738
00:40:42,340 --> 00:40:46,260
But you gotta be willing to accept it
and embrace it. You've ch to my clients,

739
00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:49,680
I go, Look, you've chosen this.
No one's making you be a trader.

740
00:40:50,110 --> 00:40:53,320
You've chosen this profession and you
knew, you knew it was gonna be tough.

741
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,640
Therefore be willing to accept
what comes with it, embrace it.

742
00:40:57,270 --> 00:41:01,960
It's interest. Yeah, it reminds me of
what, um, Tom was talking about when,

743
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,600
and I'm pretty sure he
talked about it on the show,

744
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,920
about visualization around before going
to a trading session. So like, you know,

745
00:41:08,140 --> 00:41:11,800
sit down, visualize this situation,
you know, the trades going against you,

746
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,560
you're in draw down, um, or you're in a
winner, you're holding onto the winner,

747
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,760
you're keeping it and it goes against
you and you take the break even,

748
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,800
all these sort of things. Yep. Do you,

749
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,240
is this something that you're a proponent
of in terms of trying to get the

750
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:29,080
people to that point of embracing
something as opposed in a quicker manner

751
00:41:29,210 --> 00:41:33,800
as opposed to just having to go through
the experience and I suck it up,

752
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,120
which would take a long,
longer amount of time, I guess.

753
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,520
I'm guessing. Yeah, definitely.
So, definitely yes. Um,

754
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,200
so visualization or
imagery, mental rehearsal,

755
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,000
whatever people wanna refer to it as
is very powerful because neurologically

756
00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:50,280
the brain cannot recognize the difference
between a kind of a mental simulation

757
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,400
and a real experience. So the neurological
level, it's the same. Uh, and,

758
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:54,760
and the,

759
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,960
and the way of kind of making sense of
that is think about a nightmare when you

760
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,120
have a nightmare, It's an
imagined experience, but
you could wake up, sweating,

761
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,280
feeling the sensations of fear,
heart pounding and so on. So,

762
00:42:06,530 --> 00:42:10,120
so we can use imagery to our advantage
in training. And, and this is one of my,

763
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,670
I guess what mental training
practices in many ways,

764
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:16,510
but it is useful in that way
as Tom utilizes it, which,

765
00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:20,590
and as I would do with my traders in terms
of if we know the sorts of situations

766
00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:25,030
that we wanna kind of be more willing
to, um, embrace and accept and work with,

767
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,310
we can rehearse them.

768
00:42:26,490 --> 00:42:31,070
And what that does is we can
speed up the process of exposure

769
00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:34,110
and skills training because it
might be, let's say for example,

770
00:42:34,110 --> 00:42:37,670
there's one situation a day where
I kind of feel uncomfortable.

771
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,420
So I'm gonna get five practices a
week, 20 over the course of a month,

772
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:44,820
but via visualization,

773
00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:49,780
I could do five practices a
day or 10 practices per day.

774
00:42:50,460 --> 00:42:53,990
I could get 50 done this
week so I can speed up.

775
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:58,510
Because every time we visualize, as
long as it's intentional and focused,

776
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,470
we get a little dose of the physiology
of the experience. So we, we, we get,

777
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,230
we, we feel it in the body,

778
00:43:05,230 --> 00:43:08,190
it's visceral and that it's
a bit like an inoculation.

779
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,870
It just gives us that little dose of it
that we can start to inoculate ourselves

780
00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:12,350
against it.

781
00:43:12,350 --> 00:43:17,230
But we also get to rehearse the behavior
we want to do whilst we're feeling it.

782
00:43:17,230 --> 00:43:19,830
So now neurologically
we're building the mental,

783
00:43:19,830 --> 00:43:24,110
the neural pathway to enable us to do
the behavior while we're having the

784
00:43:24,110 --> 00:43:24,943
feeling.

785
00:43:25,050 --> 00:43:29,470
The key thing about visualization
is many people wrongly

786
00:43:29,710 --> 00:43:31,740
visualize, um,

787
00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:35,780
being in a situation that's uncomfortable
and they see themselves being icy,

788
00:43:35,780 --> 00:43:38,060
cool and calm and doing the behavior.

789
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,460
And what happens then is in
the reality they're not icy,

790
00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:47,220
cool and calm and they don't
do the behavior because
what you need to visualize,

791
00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:49,500
you need to visualize
it as it's going to be.

792
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,580
So if I'm in a situation
where let's keep it simple,

793
00:43:51,580 --> 00:43:53,340
I need to take my stop
loss at a certain level,

794
00:43:53,690 --> 00:43:56,980
I need to visualize the
market moving against me.

795
00:43:57,220 --> 00:44:00,700
Price is coming down towards my
stop loss. I need to visualize,

796
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,060
I need to imagine what's gonna
be showing up in my mind.

797
00:44:03,410 --> 00:44:06,020
I need to imagine what's gonna be,
what I'm gonna be feeling in the body.

798
00:44:06,290 --> 00:44:07,540
I need to make it real.

799
00:44:08,170 --> 00:44:11,820
I might then also practice how I'm gonna
cope with that so I can practice my

800
00:44:11,820 --> 00:44:16,700
coping skills in my visualization
and then it ends with me exiting

801
00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:21,430
the trade. But if I just visualize
price moving down, everything's good.

802
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:24,030
I'm not worried about it at
all. I feel cool and calm and I,

803
00:44:24,030 --> 00:44:27,030
and I get out of my trade.
That isn't the connection.

804
00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:31,280
I'm now practicing the wrong experience.
It's not gonna be that way way.

805
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,600
So we want and we want to
rehearse the discomfort for, um,

806
00:44:35,850 --> 00:44:38,080
realism and transference,

807
00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:41,080
but also cuz that's where we get
this little dose of exposure.

808
00:44:41,090 --> 00:44:45,400
We get more familiar with the discomfort
and we started to getting more

809
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,160
comfortable with feeling uncomfortable.
And one, one trader I coached, um,

810
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,480
two years ago, a massive
turning point for him, um,

811
00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:57,680
was when he had this realization that, Oh,

812
00:44:58,150 --> 00:45:02,160
discomfort is normal in
trading. And I was like,

813
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:04,430
perfectly normal. And he is like,

814
00:45:04,430 --> 00:45:09,430
I've been trying to avoid it for like
seven years And he is a good trader. Yeah.

815
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:12,870
I mean now he is a phenomenal
trader. Yeah. But so, you know,

816
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:17,070
just that realization, this is part
of the experience in itself. Yeah.

817
00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:18,190
Perfectly normal. You know,

818
00:45:18,190 --> 00:45:22,270
if you've got a big position
moving against you that's
gonna feel uncomfortable,

819
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,950
it shouldn't fit. Why would you
be icy, cool and calm about it?

820
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:27,150
It makes no sense. This is
about understanding, you know,

821
00:45:27,150 --> 00:45:29,070
I'm a human in this situation.

822
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:33,710
A lot of what shows up probably shows
up for most people who are human and who

823
00:45:33,710 --> 00:45:36,190
are traders and therefore
is probably normal.

824
00:45:36,690 --> 00:45:41,690
And then I just need to work with
it. Can't avoid it. You can't, Well,

825
00:45:41,690 --> 00:45:45,010
you can avoid it. You can avoid it by
not trading. Mm. That's how you avoid it.

826
00:45:45,010 --> 00:45:46,450
Yeah. Um, but that's not useful.

827
00:45:46,450 --> 00:45:49,730
Yeah. Yeah. All right. We'll
go through a couple more, um,

828
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:53,850
things here before you wrap up. So what
about the, the role of luck in trading?

829
00:45:53,850 --> 00:45:56,890
And I, I saw this in one of your videos
and I didn't get around to watching it,

830
00:45:56,890 --> 00:45:59,130
so I'm interested to hear what
you've got to say on that subject.

831
00:46:00,150 --> 00:46:04,440
Well, the, the formula for
trading as it is in, in any, um,

832
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,280
point in most performance sports, I would
say sport is a performance activity.

833
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Sport would be the same. Poker the
same is skill plus luck equals outcome.

834
00:46:13,610 --> 00:46:17,520
So when you get an outcome on a trade,
you, you know, you win or you lose,

835
00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:22,520
that is gonna be a, um,
result of your skill.

836
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:27,120
Um, plus, um, any, um, luck, which is,

837
00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:30,650
um, essentially, you know,

838
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:35,410
events or circumstances which either gonna
go in your way or go against you, um,

839
00:46:35,410 --> 00:46:39,490
outside of your control, which are
inherent in the markets, you know,

840
00:46:39,490 --> 00:46:43,290
randomness, um, you, you can't remove
it. There's, there's luck in sport,

841
00:46:43,290 --> 00:46:46,730
there's luck in poker, there's, there's
luck in trading, there's luck in life.

842
00:46:47,350 --> 00:46:50,810
And, um, Annie Duke talks about
this I think in her book, um,

843
00:46:50,810 --> 00:46:55,210
thinking in Bets where, you know,
she says the only two things, uh,

844
00:46:55,210 --> 00:46:58,410
that kind of determine how
your life turns out are, um,

845
00:46:58,410 --> 00:47:02,850
luck and the quality of your decisions.
And the, you only control one of those.

846
00:47:02,850 --> 00:47:05,010
And I would say that's
completely the same as well.

847
00:47:05,010 --> 00:47:07,050
She obviously got hers from
poker, which is her background.

848
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:08,570
And I would say that's
the same for traders.

849
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:13,210
The only things that we can control in
trading is the quality of our decisions,

850
00:47:13,210 --> 00:47:15,930
which essentially I would say is
what trading skill is. You know,

851
00:47:15,930 --> 00:47:20,850
So it's the process of making good
quality decisions on a consistent basis

852
00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:26,050
under conditions of uncertainty. That's
the skill. Then there's the luck,

853
00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:28,930
which is the variance which will
lead to the outcomes you get.

854
00:47:29,460 --> 00:47:31,440
And I think if we don't acknowledge that,

855
00:47:31,630 --> 00:47:36,520
then psychologically it's unhelpful
because we might start to become over

856
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,560
confident that our results
are purely down to us.

857
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,720
And also I think on the downside we have
to realize that sometimes, you know,

858
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,640
you will get, um, outcomes that
you, that you don't want, um,

859
00:47:46,830 --> 00:47:50,720
that are only a result of luck and
variance and randomness. You know,

860
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:55,120
and this is why in poker, you know, the
variance is so high. It's a guy, um,

861
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,200
Russo and Shoemaker wrote a
book called Winning Decisions.

862
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,520
I have this really nice little matrix,

863
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,800
which essentially very simple
is win and lose are the top two,

864
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,280
and then good process and bad
process. So on that matrix,

865
00:48:08,340 --> 00:48:12,120
all decisions are, I did a good
process and I won, or I lost,

866
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,520
or I did a bad process
and it won or it lost.

867
00:48:15,020 --> 00:48:18,240
And the goal in trading and in
poker is to do good process.

868
00:48:18,940 --> 00:48:22,560
But some will win and some will lose
and some will lose because there's

869
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,000
variance. And in fact, um,

870
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,120
a company called Eccenture Analytics
recently did some research with fund

871
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,960
managers. And I think in that
study something like only 80,

872
00:48:32,730 --> 00:48:33,563
No,

873
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:38,120
18% of of the people in this
study were winning more than

874
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:43,060
50% of the time. And the most
skilled successful fund manager,

875
00:48:43,060 --> 00:48:46,860
who is a phenomenal performer,
was winning 55% of the time.

876
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:52,340
So that means 45% of the time he's
having trade aways doing the right thing,

877
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,740
but losing. So, and that's the
role of, of luck, randomness,

878
00:48:56,740 --> 00:49:01,020
outside factors and so on. So we have
to be mindful of that and, and again,

879
00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:01,800
accept it.

880
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,780
But we also have to be humble enough
to accept it when we maybe are getting

881
00:49:05,780 --> 00:49:09,780
winning trades and appreciate that
sometimes we are getting winning trades or

882
00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:13,620
winning runs. And then there's
an element of, you know, um,

883
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:16,740
luck randomness that's playing
a part in that as well.

884
00:49:16,750 --> 00:49:18,220
So we just have to acknowledge it.

885
00:49:18,220 --> 00:49:23,020
And then I think what it means is we have
to understand then that that piece we

886
00:49:23,020 --> 00:49:26,940
do nothing about, but we've gotta fully
invest ourselves into what we can do,

887
00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:28,860
which is the skill piece,

888
00:49:29,060 --> 00:49:33,660
which is process of making good
quality trading decisions under

889
00:49:33,660 --> 00:49:38,620
conditions of uncertainty on a
consistent basis. And that's, you know,

890
00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:39,900
if we think about in sport,

891
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:43,020
we can probably think about a sport and
we know what the skill part of the sport

892
00:49:43,020 --> 00:49:47,180
is, but sometimes we don't define really
what the skill of trading is. And if,

893
00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:48,940
but if we don't define what the skill is,

894
00:49:49,210 --> 00:49:53,500
then what do we go away to practice
to get better at? You know?

895
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:54,540
And we've gotta think about, you know,

896
00:49:54,540 --> 00:49:57,380
the practice of getting better
at trading. So what is the skill,

897
00:49:57,380 --> 00:50:00,020
what are the elements of that? And
then how do we go about improving them?

898
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:02,540
Yeah. There's, there's actually a quote
at the start of the show, which, um,

899
00:50:02,540 --> 00:50:05,500
goes, the market's gonna do
what the market's gonna do,

900
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:09,420
which is essentially the lack component
of what you're talking about. Um.

901
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:12,900
Yeah. It's, it's the outside, you
know, with things that we can control,

902
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:14,420
things that we can't control. Yeah. Yeah.

903
00:50:14,420 --> 00:50:16,180
You can't control what the market does,

904
00:50:16,180 --> 00:50:19,660
but you can control how skillfully
you respond to what the market does.

905
00:50:19,660 --> 00:50:22,460
Yeah. I mean, for me it just reminds
you of things like, you know,

906
00:50:22,460 --> 00:50:25,740
the professional footballers or
soccer players depending on the world,

907
00:50:25,740 --> 00:50:27,600
you're part of the world you're in, who,

908
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:32,440
who managed to shoot this ridiculously
unbelievable goal, like, uh,

909
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,560
his latter and against England's like six,

910
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,000
seven years ago where he
did this weird bicycle kick.

911
00:50:38,110 --> 00:50:42,040
He's never gonna do that again.
But it's all Yeah. Down to the,

912
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,600
the skill added to the luck that it
actually, he actually pulled it off and,

913
00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:50,600
and you know, and, and it happened. Um,
and then golfers getting a hole in one,

914
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,960
they're always going, you know,
they're always going for the hole,

915
00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:56,640
but they don't always get a hole in
one cuz it same sort of thing. Um.

916
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:59,960
A lot of outside factors. Yeah, exactly.
Again, the more skill for you are,

917
00:51:00,550 --> 00:51:03,720
I mean, you can get beginner
golfers who get a hole in one Yeah.

918
00:51:03,810 --> 00:51:06,960
In some of the earlier rounds and you get
some pro golfers that never had a hole

919
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:07,793
in one. Yeah.

920
00:51:07,830 --> 00:51:08,320
Yeah.

921
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,200
Exactly. So, you know,

922
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,600
but we obviously know if we have to bet
on one or the other to win a round of

923
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,560
golf, we know who to
put our money on. Yeah.

924
00:51:15,930 --> 00:51:17,840
If we have to bet on who's
gonna get a hole in one,

925
00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:21,400
we might bet on the pro because they're
the pro we expect them to get more.

926
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:25,920
But the reality is, you
know, a relatively, you know,

927
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,440
as long as hit the ball far enough,

928
00:51:27,710 --> 00:51:30,440
even a beginner golfer
could get that hole in one.

929
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,480
Yeah. Or, or yeah. Yeah. Or
digressing here. But I mean,

930
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,160
if you play a round of golf on,

931
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:40,120
on say a course that Tiger Woods has
played on and you know that he beed a hole

932
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:45,040
and you pared that hole, you in fact,
you would've beat tiger on that hole.

933
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,280
Yeah. Maybe not that day,
but anyway. Yeah, yeah.

934
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,400
Yeah. Right. The other thing about,

935
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,600
so I think it's important is this is also
true for trading because a new trader,

936
00:51:53,230 --> 00:51:57,990
beginner trader could, like a beginner
golfer get a hole in one. Yeah.

937
00:51:58,030 --> 00:52:02,760
Could get, you know, early in their
trading experience with very little skill,

938
00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:04,440
but with a huge amount of luck,

939
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:09,490
get some either a particularly big winning
trade or sequence of winning trades.

940
00:52:10,260 --> 00:52:14,320
And that unfortunately can be,
um, turn into a horror story.

941
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,320
Cause we can start to, um, misplace,
you know, kind of, I guess we can, um,

942
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,520
construe that as skill or knowledge when
actually we just got very lucky. Uh,

943
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,000
and I've seen that a few times
actually, even in professional trades.

944
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:26,600
We've had kind of a,

945
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,600
a good run of luck early in their careers
and it has problems further down the

946
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,000
track. So again, we have to be
mindful that, um, for newer trades,

947
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,960
just cuz you are making money or you
made money have some good trades,

948
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,840
it may not be down a reflection
of your skill level. Um,

949
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:43,280
in fact early on it's probably more,

950
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,760
you probably a little bit of skill and
quite a bit of luck as you get better and

951
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:46,960
better,

952
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,640
there's probably a greater amount of
skill at play and then luck kind of,

953
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,960
you know, creating the variance
on top of that. So, um,

954
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,960
I think that's quite important
just to remind ourselves of.

955
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:57,360
Okay, we're gonna dive into like a,

956
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,120
I suppose a very niche element of
trading mindset and then we'll,

957
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:06,120
we'll wrap up here. So how, how would
you get somebody through managing, um,

958
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,560
problems with having a fear of
missing out on getting into a trade,

959
00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:13,600
um, taking trades and that sort of thing?

960
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,690
Yeah, it's an interesting one.
Fomo. It's, um, so I think I,

961
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,330
I think one of the things about
fear of missing out is one,

962
00:53:21,330 --> 00:53:24,490
we need to accept again that it
is a part of the trade. In fact,

963
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:27,000
it's part of life. Life, you know,
it's inbuilt into us in life. You know,

964
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,960
it's a Friday night and all your
friends are going out and you don't

965
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:32,793
really fancy it,

966
00:53:32,820 --> 00:53:35,560
but then you hear that everyone's going
out and they're going to a certain

967
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,360
venue, it's very hard.

968
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,600
Then even if you really wanna stay
in and have a quieter night in,

969
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,880
it's really hard to stay at home
knowing that everyone else is out.

970
00:53:43,110 --> 00:53:44,560
They might have a great time,

971
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,520
they're gonna talk about it over the
weekend and you weren't there. So,

972
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,400
you know, and, you know, being part of
the, of a, of a community and, you know,

973
00:53:51,490 --> 00:53:55,160
um, and not being isolated is kind
of all kind of ties into that. So it,

974
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,480
we gotta accept in human condition
and in trading condition,

975
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,760
it's there and, and it's normal.

976
00:54:01,830 --> 00:54:05,440
It's not like some abnormal a
thing that happens to people. It,

977
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,640
it's part of who we are. Um,

978
00:54:08,450 --> 00:54:12,840
so I think the first thing is accept the
fact that it's part of the experience

979
00:54:13,180 --> 00:54:17,620
and be willing to experience
it as part of your trading.

980
00:54:18,290 --> 00:54:22,380
Secondly, it can be useful. So
fear of missing out is it's, uh,

981
00:54:23,210 --> 00:54:26,980
it's a, it's a bit like a threat based
state cause we've kind of got this fear,

982
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:28,740
but it's a future fear.

983
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,420
And so I think we need
to count that, you know,

984
00:54:33,420 --> 00:54:36,740
we need to kind of reframe it to try
and manage the, the threat. And I think,

985
00:54:36,740 --> 00:54:37,660
you know, if we've got the belief,

986
00:54:37,660 --> 00:54:41,220
and I had this actually with a client
last week who'd been working on this.

987
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,140
And I think if we can come up with
some kind of belief along the lines of,

988
00:54:45,140 --> 00:54:45,580
you know,

989
00:54:45,580 --> 00:54:48,420
the market will always give me another
opportunity or something like that,

990
00:54:48,430 --> 00:54:51,180
if you genuinely believe, you
can't just say it to yourself,

991
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:55,100
but if you can say it with
meaning based on experience,

992
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:59,340
cuz you've seen it and it's, and
it's much more, um, ingrained in you,

993
00:55:00,190 --> 00:55:04,060
if you genuinely believe that the
market will always give you another

994
00:55:04,060 --> 00:55:05,780
opportunity, then I think it, again,

995
00:55:05,980 --> 00:55:08,820
it takes off some of the pressure to
have to be in the move in the moment,

996
00:55:08,820 --> 00:55:13,380
but also if you do miss out, it reduces
the impact beyond that. So I think,

997
00:55:13,380 --> 00:55:17,340
you know, the, the acceptance is key.
I think having at the mental level,

998
00:55:17,340 --> 00:55:21,340
some sort of mental framework
that recognizes, um,

999
00:55:21,490 --> 00:55:23,260
that you will get more opportunities.

1000
00:55:23,490 --> 00:55:28,220
I think you also need to be very
clear about what your trading process

1001
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:32,500
is. To have clarity about what
is a trading opportunity for me.

1002
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,630
Because sometimes FOMO comes from not
just you worrying about missing out on

1003
00:55:37,630 --> 00:55:40,390
your trade, it's, you know, other
people are on a trade or, you know,

1004
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:42,910
obviously social media now, you know,
you're seeing things on social media,

1005
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,470
so it's nothing related to you what you,
maybe not even the markets you trade.

1006
00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:48,630
And I see this, you know,

1007
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:51,190
traders are jumping into markets
they've never traded before.

1008
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,630
Nowhere is it written on
their process, anything. Um,

1009
00:55:56,630 --> 00:56:00,270
and that's where we need to be cautious
is about being pulled away from our

1010
00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:02,470
process, what we do well and so on.

1011
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:06,190
So being clear about that
and being committed to that
is also really important.

1012
00:56:06,190 --> 00:56:10,430
And then in the moment, this
is true for all emotions.

1013
00:56:10,850 --> 00:56:13,590
You need to recognize
emotions when they show up.

1014
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,070
So you need to be able to notice and
often emotions a bit like ripples in a we

1015
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:19,070
on the, on the ocean,

1016
00:56:19,070 --> 00:56:22,030
they start small and then they sort
of start to build and build and build.

1017
00:56:22,030 --> 00:56:25,480
So FOMO might start as a small thought
and then it might become this kind of

1018
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,320
really powerful urge. So you need
to be aware of, of the feeling.

1019
00:56:29,380 --> 00:56:33,280
And one of the most useful techniques
for dealing with emotions in trading is

1020
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,080
not to try and get rid of them
or not to try not to feel them,

1021
00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:39,760
but it's to notice them when you
are having them and to label them.

1022
00:56:39,970 --> 00:56:43,840
So you might notice that you're having
fomo and you might even say to yourself,

1023
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,880
Oh, I'm noticing that I've got
the fear of missing out here.

1024
00:56:47,650 --> 00:56:51,630
Now once we start to label and we start
to name the experience we are having,

1025
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:54,470
it actually reduces the
intensity of the emotion.

1026
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,590
It gives us a bit of distance away from
the emotion such that we are not as

1027
00:56:58,590 --> 00:56:59,790
reactive to it.

1028
00:57:00,090 --> 00:57:05,040
And it allows us to maybe
just consider our response,

1029
00:57:05,330 --> 00:57:10,270
um, before we either do or don't, um,
engage. So, so yes, I think, you know,

1030
00:57:10,270 --> 00:57:14,110
um, accept it, um, form some kind
of belief that's useful around,

1031
00:57:14,110 --> 00:57:17,910
there's always more opportunities be
clear about the process. And then I think,

1032
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:18,110
you know,

1033
00:57:18,110 --> 00:57:22,270
in the moment it's just about being aware
of what you're feeling and notice it,

1034
00:57:22,270 --> 00:57:26,750
name it, label it. Um, and
then again, focus in on,

1035
00:57:27,330 --> 00:57:31,870
now I know how I'm feeling, what
behavior do I wanna take in this moment?

1036
00:57:31,870 --> 00:57:33,470
You know, what's the effective behavior?

1037
00:57:33,470 --> 00:57:34,230
That's a, that's a.

1038
00:57:34,230 --> 00:57:34,350
Great,

1039
00:57:34,350 --> 00:57:37,870
except that the emotions not driving the
behavior you are having the emotion of

1040
00:57:37,870 --> 00:57:41,470
fear of missing out and at the same
time you're deciding what the effective

1041
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:43,910
behavior is within that context. Yeah.

1042
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:47,390
Yeah. I like that. I like labeling the
emotion when you feel it comes through.

1043
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:49,230
Which I think a lot of people just,

1044
00:57:49,420 --> 00:57:54,350
that's probably the biggest issue is
the emotion comes through and they never

1045
00:57:54,350 --> 00:57:57,750
get to the point of knowing what to
do with it. Even if they do notice it,

1046
00:57:57,750 --> 00:58:00,830
they'll still let it just
flow through and, oh,

1047
00:58:00,930 --> 00:58:03,110
I'm now controlled by the emotion.

1048
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:05,990
Well, what a lot of people
want do is if it's a,

1049
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:08,710
if it's an uncomfortable
emotion, like a fear and anxiety,

1050
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,670
an irritation or frustration
is they don't want to feel it.

1051
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:13,630
So when they notice it,

1052
00:58:13,630 --> 00:58:16,110
they don't wanna feel it and they'll
try and get rid of it in some way.

1053
00:58:16,110 --> 00:58:18,150
And that's, you know, for example, um,

1054
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:20,830
if you've got the fear of missing
out and it's uncomfortable,

1055
00:58:21,490 --> 00:58:26,420
people will jump into the
trading opportunity because
then by jumping into the

1056
00:58:26,420 --> 00:58:30,260
market in the short term, the
fear of missing out goes away.

1057
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,150
So now in the short term,
you feel more comfortable,

1058
00:58:33,210 --> 00:58:35,750
but you might end up now with
the worst trade than you,

1059
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:38,430
than you would've had otherwise. So in
the long term, there's a consequence.

1060
00:58:38,430 --> 00:58:41,870
Yeah. So there's often a payoff in trading
when it gets uncomfortable between,

1061
00:58:42,340 --> 00:58:44,670
I can choose to feel more
comfortable now in the short,

1062
00:58:44,790 --> 00:58:48,710
short-term by doing this behavior,
by not taking my stop loss.

1063
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,110
So now I'm not inner losing,
you know, I haven't, um,

1064
00:58:52,110 --> 00:58:56,070
taken the loss so that feels
more comfortable, but the
market goes against me.

1065
00:58:56,070 --> 00:58:58,630
And then further down the line,
I feel more uncomfortable.

1066
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,790
Or I can take the stop loss now,

1067
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,510
or I can not get into the
trade now with my fomo,

1068
00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:07,840
which in the short term is more
uncomfortable, but in the long term,

1069
00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:12,240
uh, makes me more profitable. And I
think there's a, for a lot of people,

1070
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,200
they have to ask us themselves a question,

1071
00:59:14,650 --> 00:59:18,720
Am I trading to be comfortable
or am I trading to be profitable?

1072
00:59:19,020 --> 00:59:22,080
And the reality is, if you're
trading to maximize profits,

1073
00:59:22,220 --> 00:59:26,120
you also probably need to be
willing to be uncomfortable, uh,

1074
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,960
more of the time than you
might normally like to be.

1075
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,120
And that's kind of the payoff, um,

1076
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:34,760
as it is in many things that
are worthwhile doing. So.
But the but the labeling,

1077
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,160
the emotions came from a guy
called Matt Lieberman at ucla.

1078
00:59:37,210 --> 00:59:40,440
He actually put people into brain
scanning machines, FMRI machines,

1079
00:59:40,660 --> 00:59:44,440
and looked at what happens in people's
brains when you try to resist an emotion,

1080
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,920
suppress it, or when you,
when you acknowledge it and,
and label it, naming it.

1081
00:59:49,180 --> 00:59:51,040
And when you try and suppress an emotion,

1082
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,450
a bit like holding a beach ball
under the water, it takes effort.

1083
00:59:55,460 --> 00:59:59,370
And of course if you let go of the
ball and he found that in the brain,

1084
00:59:59,370 --> 01:00:03,730
they were seeing increased neural activity
in the emotional circuits when people

1085
01:00:03,730 --> 01:00:07,130
were suppressing, when people
acknowledged how they were feeling,

1086
01:00:07,490 --> 01:00:11,650
there was a reduction in intensity. A bit
like a messenger coming into the door.

1087
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,140
I take the message, Thanks
very much, message delivered.

1088
01:00:16,970 --> 01:00:20,180
That's a nice calm process as
opposed to messenger coming my way.

1089
01:00:20,330 --> 01:00:23,260
I don't wanna receive that message.
I shut the door in your face.

1090
01:00:23,260 --> 01:00:25,420
They wanna give me the message,
they push the door open.

1091
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,100
And now we're struggling together.

1092
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,940
And a lot of traders spend a lot of time
struggling with their emotions rather

1093
01:00:30,940 --> 01:00:34,860
than going open the door, What's
the message? Thanks very much. Okay,

1094
01:00:34,860 --> 01:00:35,860
now what do I want to do?

1095
01:00:36,070 --> 01:00:37,220
Awesome. Brilliant.

1096
01:00:37,220 --> 01:00:39,020
And that's where I try and
get my traders to, you know,

1097
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:42,300
it's working with the emotions
and not struggling with them.

1098
01:00:42,570 --> 01:00:44,020
It's awesome. Well look on,

1099
01:00:44,020 --> 01:00:47,820
on that fantastic little tidbit
there at the very end. Um,

1100
01:00:47,820 --> 01:00:49,700
what's the best way for
traders to get hold of you?

1101
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,150
Uh, professional traders
institutional traders, uh,

1102
01:00:53,150 --> 01:00:57,390
performance edge consulting.com uk.
Um, if you are Retail trader based,

1103
01:00:57,390 --> 01:00:59,430
then trade@yourbest.com.

1104
01:00:59,430 --> 01:01:02,030
Brilliant. Awesome.
Well look guys, um, uh,

1105
01:01:02,030 --> 01:01:06,870
we'll put a link in the show notes
to Steve's, uh, uh, sites there.

1106
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:10,510
So Steve, thank you once again for
coming on. Everyone do remember, um,

1107
01:01:10,510 --> 01:01:11,430
hit subscribe, hit like,

1108
01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:14,870
click on that notifications bill and
click all and we'll see in next video,

1109
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:19,790
video or podcast radio folks that you
have at the 200th episode of Trading Dun

1110
01:01:19,790 --> 01:01:21,510
and Dusted. So, uh, guys,

1111
01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:26,110
if you do want to go and check out that
video we shot with Lewis Kelly, uh,

1112
01:01:26,110 --> 01:01:28,990
it's, well, it's not a video
we shot, he did a live stream.

1113
01:01:28,990 --> 01:01:30,830
We've cut out the best bits of it,

1114
01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:34,710
piece it together cuz it is a great little
bit of educational content out there

1115
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:38,590
to understand smart money, uh,
trading and what they do, uh,

1116
01:01:38,590 --> 01:01:42,190
to influence price and how
you can benefit from it.

1117
01:01:42,190 --> 01:01:45,870
So go and check that out on the channel
there. Uh, other things to remember,

1118
01:01:45,870 --> 01:01:48,510
we've got the scalping challenge.
So if you scout the London Open,

1119
01:01:48,510 --> 01:01:51,750
you wanna come on the Trading Nut
channel, then this is your chance.

1120
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:54,270
Hit me up@supporttradingnut.com.

1121
01:01:54,890 --> 01:01:59,390
And the other things we've got is the
Robot Lab live. We're basically into the,

1122
01:01:59,390 --> 01:02:02,110
in the process of putting
that on a demo account, um,

1123
01:02:02,110 --> 01:02:04,310
we've got a portfolio
that looks pretty good,

1124
01:02:04,310 --> 01:02:08,670
we're gonna chuck that up and see if we
can confirm whether or not we decide to

1125
01:02:08,670 --> 01:02:11,190
go on a prop Trading firm
challenge with that bot.

1126
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,230
So go and check that out over there.

1127
01:02:13,230 --> 01:02:15,510
And if you're looking to
automate anything that you do,

1128
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:18,950
then check out the Robot Builders Club.
You get the Robot Lab live with that,

1129
01:02:19,250 --> 01:02:22,150
and I'd love to see you in there.
All right folks, enough from me.

1130
01:02:22,270 --> 01:02:23,870
We'll see you in the next episode.