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Once again, 16 00:00:56,300 --> 00:01:01,200 you can book them by visiting geal c.com on 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,120 their connect with us page. 18 00:01:20,860 --> 00:01:21,693 And 19 00:01:23,740 --> 00:01:26,400 let by story before. 20 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:29,880 Go, Hey, yo, 21 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,800 what he is good at everybody. Welcome you. Good interview. 22 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:37,200 People go. No people probably might not know your voice on this. 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:37,880 Podcast. You were like, what? 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,080 Wait, who was that talking? 25 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:41,000 I thought I was wait. I thought. 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,120 This was the exit interview. Where's Dr. Asia Lyons. Where's Kevin happens. 27 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,200 Well, I got news for you, everybody. They are right here. Yes, yo, 28 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,033 what's up people. 29 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:50,760 Hey. 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,920 Y'all do it. Hey, so, uh, 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,240 you may be extremely confused if you are one of our regular exit interview 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,600 listeners. Um, 33 00:01:59,650 --> 00:02:04,160 we are on the Eve of the 2223 school year. 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,120 We know some of you have already started shout out, 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,000 made the odds be ever in your favor as you reenter classrooms and schools 36 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:16,600 and your buildings and, um, and you know, live in that amazing life. 37 00:02:16,650 --> 00:02:20,640 So what we decided to do, um, for this, um, 38 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:25,920 for this episode of the exit interview is I hit out your 39 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:29,120 20, 21 Colorado teacher of the year, um, 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,960 and former classroom teacher, um, 41 00:02:32,410 --> 00:02:35,640 am going to be conducting an interview with Dr. 42 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,160 Asia Lys and with Kevin Adams. This was a great idea. 43 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:45,480 Yes, I think is a good idea. So, um, so Asia, 44 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,640 let's talk a little bit, like if, if y'all could maybe, um, 45 00:02:48,910 --> 00:02:52,760 just share with the audience a little bit about why we all decided to take this 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,040 approach this time, um, that way they can kind of, 47 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,440 we can give 'em a little roadmap as to what, uh, what they're about to hear. 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,330 Yeah, sure. So I think we had last summer, we had, uh, uh, 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,330 a chance to talk and do the re the mix tape. Right. That's right. 50 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:11,850 And so we didn't do that this, this summer, 51 00:03:11,870 --> 00:03:16,770 but I think that Kevin and I have had lots of conversations and two G right 52 00:03:16,970 --> 00:03:20,210 after we wrapping up to say, like, that was really dope, 53 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:22,850 or let's talk about that more somewhere else. And like, 54 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:24,090 this is a somewhere else. Right. 55 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:28,450 So just kind of collecting some of our data from folks and what we've heard and 56 00:03:28,450 --> 00:03:30,050 what we've been thinking about. And just, 57 00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:33,610 this is a time for us to reflect as a crew about like, 58 00:03:33,610 --> 00:03:36,730 what we find really interesting about these conversations. 59 00:03:36,730 --> 00:03:37,770 What's really important. 60 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,450 What has not been solved and some things that maybe have been solved since we've 61 00:03:42,450 --> 00:03:44,010 talked to so many folks. 62 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:45,450 Yeah, yeah. 63 00:03:45,450 --> 00:03:49,290 Can it's like our takeaways, right? Yes. Like what, what do we take away? What, 64 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,170 what, what have we learned from these interviews? 65 00:03:52,170 --> 00:03:55,330 Because I think there's a lot to learn and, you know, what, 66 00:03:55,330 --> 00:03:57,770 what trends are we noticing as we, 67 00:03:57,770 --> 00:04:02,370 as we go through these interviews and the commonalities when it comes to, 68 00:04:03,060 --> 00:04:07,500 uh, black educators exiting the classroom. 69 00:04:07,810 --> 00:04:12,020 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think this is good. And I think, um, 70 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,700 and I think it, it's, it's just great, because I think as you both know, 71 00:04:16,010 --> 00:04:20,860 when you are kind of neck deep in the work from, you know, 72 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:24,100 from your perspective, so Kevin, as a classroom teacher, um, 73 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:26,860 a forever classroom teacher, apparently, uh, 74 00:04:26,940 --> 00:04:29,260 we'll get to that part later on . 75 00:04:29,810 --> 00:04:31,380 Yeah, let's do that. 76 00:04:32,150 --> 00:04:34,060 Um, we'll get to that part later on, but, 77 00:04:34,060 --> 00:04:37,340 but sort of where you are processing this work, Kevin, as a, 78 00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:41,980 as a classroom teacher and where Dr. Lyons, where Asia, you are talking, um, 79 00:04:41,980 --> 00:04:46,100 from your perspective as a researcher and a scholar in this area, and, you know, 80 00:04:46,130 --> 00:04:49,500 I, I just have to make sure I'm gonna be saying Dr. Lyons the whole time or Dr. 81 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:50,460 Asia, Dr. 82 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:51,293 Asia, Dr. 83 00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:55,620 That, and it's beautiful. You have matriculated and. 84 00:04:59,270 --> 00:05:00,103 It. 85 00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:07,900 I was on the front row, so they played that song the whole time and it went on, 86 00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:08,940 it went for like four. 87 00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:11,620 Loops. Yeah. Acronym to think. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 88 00:05:12,730 --> 00:05:15,620 Keep playing it. Well, let's, uh, let's dive right in. Um, 89 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:18,460 because I think that this is a question, um, 90 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:22,500 actually I wish I could say this was a question on so many people's minds in 91 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:23,660 education, but it is not, 92 00:05:23,770 --> 00:05:27,500 this is a question that should be on the minds of everyone in education. 93 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:32,220 So in the midst of this crisis in staffing that is looming 94 00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:34,020 over our schools, um, 95 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:39,300 what is you all's perspective on the state 96 00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:42,140 of black educators today? Right now, 97 00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:45,100 the Eve of the 20 22, 20 23 school year, 98 00:05:45,430 --> 00:05:49,540 if you could sort of sum up in general terms where we at. 99 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,320 Kevin, you wanna go first? 100 00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:53,720 I'll go first. 101 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:54,553 Cover boy. 102 00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:57,560 I mean, stop it. based, based on. 103 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Wait, hold on. I'm gonna interrupt real quick. 104 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,480 So I'm not a union member anymore, but, um, 105 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:06,480 but Kevin was on the cover of NEA today for August 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,160 of 2022. And, um, 107 00:06:09,290 --> 00:06:13,080 we are getting all kinds of fan mailed, uh. 108 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:14,430 Oh, wow. 109 00:06:14,430 --> 00:06:17,600 Hand messages, people, so excited. Um. 110 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,080 So it's great. 111 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,120 Anyway, so. 112 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:19,953 Kevin. 113 00:06:19,990 --> 00:06:20,920 Take it away. 114 00:06:21,350 --> 00:06:25,600 I mean, I, to be honest, the state of, of black educators right now, 115 00:06:26,230 --> 00:06:30,720 I, I I'd say it's, it's pretty dire. I don't think it looks good. Um, 116 00:06:30,910 --> 00:06:35,320 I think based on, on what I've seen, the trends that I've seen, 117 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:40,300 the interviews that we've done, um, I don't, 118 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,540 I don't, I don't really know. And I think we'll, 119 00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:46,140 we'll probably talk more about this, but I don't know how much, 120 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:49,540 uh, this system can, 121 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:53,380 can do to help black educators stay in the classroom. Mm-hmm , 122 00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:54,700 you know, I, I think I, 123 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:59,340 based on the stories that I've heard in my recent experiences on the bargaining 124 00:06:59,340 --> 00:07:02,820 team, um, in my school district, um, 125 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:07,020 as we negotiate our master con or our, um, main agreement, 126 00:07:08,110 --> 00:07:09,820 uh, I, I don't see, 127 00:07:10,570 --> 00:07:14,100 I don't envision a future where people are willing to do or make radical 128 00:07:14,110 --> 00:07:14,943 changes. 129 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:19,340 That will be the things that are gonna deal with the issues that we have heard 130 00:07:19,340 --> 00:07:23,140 about throughout the exit interview, Asia, your thoughts. 131 00:07:23,930 --> 00:07:28,820 Yeah. I have to agree. I don't think. And, and our, our hope our, um, guests, 132 00:07:28,820 --> 00:07:31,620 excuse me, have said it so many times we asked the question, 133 00:07:32,090 --> 00:07:34,780 what do you think that unions and, um, 134 00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:37,980 school districts can do to keep black educators in classrooms? 135 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:40,420 And folks have said over and over again, nothing, 136 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,900 and almost like laughing when they say it, like, it's, 137 00:07:43,010 --> 00:07:46,300 it's just not gonna happen. Yeah. And if folks did have ideas, 138 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:50,900 it's not like the unions or school districts, or whoever makes these decisions, 139 00:07:51,130 --> 00:07:54,910 it's gonna do anything about it, or actually follow some of these directions. 140 00:07:54,910 --> 00:07:59,070 So, yeah, I'm not seeing, I'm not seen this, 141 00:07:59,070 --> 00:08:03,350 like now no longer a slow leak, but just flood of black educators leaving. 142 00:08:03,570 --> 00:08:08,030 I'm not seeing that ending anytime soon. I think I said this before we started, 143 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,950 um, recording that, you know, I, I interview, uh, 144 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:15,750 five black educators and their families for my research and out of those five 145 00:08:15,750 --> 00:08:19,430 black educators, when I go back and check on those folks out of five, 146 00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:23,980 three of them are, are still teaching and two of them have left. Right. So, 147 00:08:23,980 --> 00:08:27,780 and this was, I interviewed them maybe like January. Right. Wow. 148 00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:31,020 And I could be more as the time goes on. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, 149 00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:34,100 and folks are doing other things they're totally out of teaching altogether. 150 00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:37,780 Some folks have chose to do like teacher coaching in a consulting space. 151 00:08:37,790 --> 00:08:41,420 So still with youth, but in a different capacity, but just, 152 00:08:41,530 --> 00:08:46,460 I don't foresee it. Um, I don't foresee it being fixed anytime soon. 153 00:08:46,610 --> 00:08:47,430 Yeah. 154 00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:52,420 So in a word, it makes me think of Tampa bay, buck ears, coach Morris, 155 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:56,160 a few years ago, they ask him about Steve's poor performance and he goes, 156 00:08:56,910 --> 00:08:59,640 it's not very good. and yeah. 157 00:08:59,650 --> 00:09:04,160 So I think what we would say here is that the situation is not very good. Um, 158 00:09:04,570 --> 00:09:07,800 we, you have you both. And, and I, 159 00:09:07,810 --> 00:09:10,640 in my capacity as producer, um, 160 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,640 I get to kind of be the fly on the wall or the fly behind the zoom camera, um, 161 00:09:14,670 --> 00:09:18,240 that is, uh, listening and trying to process and make sense of, 162 00:09:18,370 --> 00:09:21,440 of what is being shared. Um, 163 00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:25,800 one of the threads that has happened is that it's the same story, 164 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:27,070 right? 165 00:09:27,070 --> 00:09:31,800 It's the same story when we have these issues of black teacher attrition. 166 00:09:32,070 --> 00:09:33,040 What's that story? 167 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:40,710 Oh, well, you know, it's, it's the pain, right? It's, it's the silence, 168 00:09:41,420 --> 00:09:45,870 it's the, um, welcoming the black educator. And specifically, 169 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:47,350 we'll talk about this probably a little bit more, 170 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:50,830 but specifically black women's experience on our podcast. Yeah. 171 00:09:50,830 --> 00:09:54,110 Of like feeling welcomed and feeling good about the space and that slowly 172 00:09:54,310 --> 00:09:57,230 changing over time. Right. Folks who said, 173 00:09:57,230 --> 00:10:01,750 like they've started committees and di things and done the work and work with 174 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:05,190 kids, and then people are telling them, oh, just be honest with me. 175 00:10:05,190 --> 00:10:08,190 If you see me doing something, call me out, then they get, 176 00:10:08,190 --> 00:10:10,150 they call them out and then it's silence. Right. 177 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,950 Or policies and procedures and just nitpicking and all these things. 178 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,310 So that constant, you know, and it just goes on and on and on. 179 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:19,910 Yeah. Yeah. 180 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:24,590 Yeah. I mean, I, I, you hit it right on the head, uh, Asia, 181 00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:28,710 that, it's definitely that, um, 182 00:10:29,020 --> 00:10:33,110 common experience, I think, where, where people come in and, 183 00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:36,990 and in particular black women and they feel good, they're ready to do the work. 184 00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:38,870 They're excited. They've been work, you know, 185 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:43,710 wanting to be educators throughout their lives and they come in 186 00:10:43,710 --> 00:10:48,590 and then, and then they begin to advocate or push back. Right. You know, 187 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:53,430 and, and for whatever reason, there's always things that cause them to see, 188 00:10:53,470 --> 00:10:55,670 start to see the inequities, 189 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,510 whether it's like they become very blatant or the inequities come 190 00:11:00,510 --> 00:11:02,550 against them. Right. But, 191 00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:06,070 and then it's always followed by this exact same thing. Oh, 192 00:11:06,070 --> 00:11:08,510 now you're aggressive. Now you're the problem. 193 00:11:08,810 --> 00:11:12,310 Now you don't work well with people. You don't, you're not good for staff, 194 00:11:13,090 --> 00:11:17,830 you know, and I think that has been one of the most interesting trends 195 00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:21,430 that I have seen in our exit interviews. 196 00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:24,950 And, and to that point, um, I think, you know, 197 00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:29,910 that makes me think of early interviews that you all conducted with Satara and 198 00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:33,590 with Annalise who, you know, and particularly Satara the, 199 00:11:33,620 --> 00:11:38,150 a big part of her story that really stuck with me was that how there were 200 00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:40,830 principles like bidding for her, 201 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:44,390 like begging her to come to their school. And, 202 00:11:44,390 --> 00:11:49,270 and I think the manner with which that dynamic 203 00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:54,160 turned on a dime and, um, and just got toxic, 204 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,960 right. Yeah. From the legal perspective. And so that, so that's kind of, 205 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,960 you know, sort of, as I think back on the interviews that, 206 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,720 that I've produced and put together, uh, with you, 207 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,840 all those kind of come to mind, what were you gonna say, Asia? 208 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:11,000 I was just thinking about this, this particular season. We've had folks, 209 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,720 we've had administrators been interviewed, um, on our show. 210 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,400 And we also had someone who, uh, shout out to Stacy, Brandon and Dr. 211 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,960 Patterson, Stacy, Brandon, uh, was executive director, 212 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,240 whatever the title was for the I, for her school. 213 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:28,273 District school district. 214 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,640 Right. And so, so many folks say, well, if, 215 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,760 if I just get my principal licensure, 216 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,920 then I'm gonna be a principal and change things around. 217 00:12:34,930 --> 00:12:36,760 Or if I'm just do and it, 218 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:40,560 and those two interviews alone will let you know. 219 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,680 And if you have not heard them, please go back and listen. Yeah. Yeah. 220 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,440 It's not about just it's, it's beyond this power. Right. If I just move up, 221 00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:52,880 if I have more power, right. It's really about the systemic, 222 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,720 right. So you, you can be have all these licenses, you can have a doctorate, 223 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:58,640 you can have these things, 224 00:12:59,060 --> 00:13:03,960 and it does not change the narrative black educators at, in all capacities. 225 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,040 Right. And doctor, or excuse me, Stacy BRN was a social worker. 226 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,800 She wasn't an education as a teacher. 227 00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:10,560 Not a. 228 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:11,040 Question. The same. 229 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,320 Experience. Yeah. 230 00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:16,760 Yep. It goes back to this idea of white supremacy that no matter what, 231 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,040 right. No matter what you achieve, what you accomplish, mm-hmm, , 232 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,240 they will take it away whenever they need to. Right. And, and, and they will, 233 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:29,660 and then you will just be another black educator. 234 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:32,660 Who's part of the problem. Right? Who, 235 00:13:32,660 --> 00:13:35,900 who does it and they'll play us against each other. Right. 236 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:39,180 And I'm talking about black educators, they'll play us against each other. 237 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:40,860 Right. And, and, 238 00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:45,510 and I feel like I've experienced some of this recently, 239 00:13:45,810 --> 00:13:49,510 you know, where, where it's like, well, this is what, uh, you know, 240 00:13:49,510 --> 00:13:52,910 is best for black students. And if black educators are asking for this, 241 00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:57,070 then they maybe don't value black students and the needs of black students. 242 00:13:57,070 --> 00:13:57,310 Right. 243 00:13:57,310 --> 00:13:58,050 That's amazing. 244 00:13:58,050 --> 00:14:01,630 And, and that's amazing. And, and, and it's, it's like, wait, 245 00:14:01,630 --> 00:14:05,350 just because I asked for my needs to be met means that I, 246 00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:08,910 I don't value the needs of black students. What's the goal is, 247 00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:12,030 and this is where we go back to the bigger question. Can any be anything, 248 00:14:12,030 --> 00:14:15,430 are they willing to do anything that doesn't seem, it doesn't seem, it does it, 249 00:14:15,430 --> 00:14:19,230 from my perspective, it doesn't feel like they're willing to do anything. 250 00:14:19,470 --> 00:14:23,590 Let's um, let, let's, let's put a pin in that, cuz that's how I, 251 00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:27,910 I want us to sort of conclude a little bit because I think that will be a really 252 00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:31,870 big question. So spoil alert, Kevin is skeptical. . 253 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,350 Even though I'm gonna do this forever. 254 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:36,513 No, cuz. 255 00:14:36,670 --> 00:14:38,710 Apparently this job would love it. Right. We're . 256 00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:44,230 Apparently we'll talk about that too, but, but I think so. So just to, so we'll, 257 00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:46,270 we'll come to that in a second. Um, 258 00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:50,550 one of the thing that things that kind of Springs to mind for me too, and Asia, 259 00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:55,520 when you talked about the systemic, uh, reality that oppresses and um, 260 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,120 kicks out black educators, um, 261 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:03,200 the thing that kind of comes to mind for me is that systems are upheld by 262 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,840 people, right? Oh yeah. So the system can't just live on itself, 263 00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:11,480 that it has to have individuals making choices daily, 264 00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:15,880 whether they're gonna uphold it or not. And it may be like little tiny choices. 265 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:17,160 Like you see a tense, 266 00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:20,760 a tense exchange happening and you just kind of put your head down, 267 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,200 it's your cubicle and say, oh, I'm not gonna get involved in that. Um, 268 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,760 and it could be really major things like what happens with, you know, 269 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,360 you talked about Dr. Patterson, I think back to Darlene, Dr. 270 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,320 Darlene Sampson mm-hmm and um, you know, 271 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,560 people who were elevated specifically to do this work. 272 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:41,720 One thing that also came out and all three of us noticed is credit to us, 273 00:15:41,750 --> 00:15:46,280 virtue signaling for all of us. Right. Especially me and ke is CI dudes. 274 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:49,960 Um, so one, one, um, 275 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,320 one thing that really has, uh, 276 00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,360 emerged is that for the most part, 277 00:15:55,820 --> 00:15:58,520 the experiences of black women educators, 278 00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:03,620 a little bit different from the experiences of some black male educators. 279 00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:05,140 And one thing I'm going to say, 280 00:16:05,190 --> 00:16:09,860 because it's a weird thing for a not black person to say on a podcast. But, um, 281 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,140 but I do wanna sort of, you know, Asia, 282 00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:16,740 you suggested an intersectional lens on this. Do you wanna speak to this? 283 00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:22,630 Yeah. So we've interviewed only two black men in our two seat, 284 00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:23,790 3, 3, 3. 285 00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:26,790 Cause there was, there was Michael, Michael. 286 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,190 Michael. Oh. And Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. 287 00:16:31,190 --> 00:16:34,910 But he's kind of like he's yeah, I'm on, I'm on the, I'm on the edge folks. 288 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:35,990 Yeah. He's. 289 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:37,030 Gonna do this forever. 290 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,110 Forever, forever. 291 00:16:39,660 --> 00:16:43,070 You've had three black men on the show and out of those three black men, 292 00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:45,310 two of them really had this. 293 00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:50,150 They shared experience of like it not being so bad and they chose to leave and 294 00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:54,510 they've had like great experiences with their administrators and like all this 295 00:16:54,510 --> 00:16:58,430 support and it was their ch and it was just like this it's not racial battle 296 00:16:58,430 --> 00:16:59,150 fatigue. It. 297 00:16:59,150 --> 00:17:00,470 Was a calling for them. It was a. 298 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,430 It was a calling. It was time for them to go. 299 00:17:02,430 --> 00:17:05,350 They got a better job or they decided to, um, 300 00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:09,430 go into consulting or decided to move into higher ed decided to whatever. Yeah. 301 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,990 Um, and they was just like, not, like I said before, 302 00:17:12,990 --> 00:17:15,710 not the experience of the black woman we've interviewed. No. 303 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:20,230 And so I really want to think about more and maybe as time goes on, 304 00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:23,150 we'll have more data around this and I've said data twice, 305 00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:26,550 and now I'm a super nerd in this one episode, but. 306 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:29,470 She's data now. Right. 307 00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:31,550 Qualitative data about, well, you have to. 308 00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:35,310 Really, you have to linkage whether it's longitudinal or, you know, anyway. 309 00:17:35,310 --> 00:17:39,350 But, but longitudinal data. Yeah. Over the time. Yeah. And so you stop it, 310 00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:42,870 stop making fun of your people. Yeah, exactly. My crew. Right. 311 00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:44,590 I mean, you have to remember Kevin, 312 00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:48,590 like academic there's no coincidence at academic also means irrelevant. 313 00:17:48,590 --> 00:17:50,240 Irrelevant. It's. 314 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,000 Like, anyway, that's true. But yeah, for Dr. Hay, the black women, 315 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,040 like black women, thank you. Black women, our experience in education, 316 00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:59,690 uh, 317 00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:04,540 from what we've seen and we've heard on this podcast seems to be far 318 00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:08,510 worse than our male guests and I'm not, 319 00:18:08,530 --> 00:18:12,430 and I'm being very careful not to have a wide sweeping. Right? Yep. Yep. 320 00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:15,550 But it just, it really has seemed like when we interview, 321 00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:20,190 except for like Michael really talked about him having a hellish experience when 322 00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:21,230 he was teaching. Yep. 323 00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:25,190 But our other two folks just seemed like it was just not a problem for them. 324 00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:29,630 And so it makes me wonder a couple things. One like, 325 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,550 is that I don't wanna say they're lying cause that's a, that's a reach, 326 00:18:33,550 --> 00:18:36,550 but I wanna say like, is there more to the story mm-hmm right. 327 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:40,830 I wanna ask the question of like, it wasn't, if it was just like this and why, 328 00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:45,590 like I know that we've been really pushing for we as a society or educators 329 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:47,870 pushing for more black men education. Yep. 330 00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:50,950 Because black men apparently are unicorns that can do magical things for 331 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:54,230 children and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. Okay. 332 00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:58,830 But was it that well, like they, like, I don't know what that's about, but I, 333 00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:02,710 it just really, and it really was Kevin who pointed that out, um, 334 00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:04,190 in one of our interviews at the end. 335 00:19:04,190 --> 00:19:06,230 And I'm just curious about they won't Kevin. 336 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,630 No, the reason why it comes to me is because, you know, 337 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:12,870 as we sit through these interviews, 338 00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:17,830 I think about my own career and my own experiences and some of the things that, 339 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:22,870 that have not been that have been said to these women that I have never had 340 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:26,030 said to me, not once. And, and, 341 00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:29,870 and it makes me ask questions, right. Have I not been pushing enough? 342 00:19:29,970 --> 00:19:33,150 And then I think back to times where I've really pushed and put stuff out there, 343 00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:38,150 you know, and, and advocated, you know, and, and then it makes me think, well, 344 00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:38,983 you know, 345 00:19:39,170 --> 00:19:44,070 how does it play into that intersectionality of it all play into 346 00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:45,470 it. And, and again, 347 00:19:45,470 --> 00:19:49,790 I think we know that that the black women 348 00:19:50,350 --> 00:19:53,270 carry, carry the burden of the world, right? 349 00:19:53,270 --> 00:19:57,470 If black women carry the burden of the world and in a classroom. And, and it's, 350 00:19:57,470 --> 00:19:59,470 it's fascinating, you know, as, as my, 351 00:19:59,730 --> 00:20:03,390 and I don't know how far I can go into this, but I've been recently, 352 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:07,950 I was shared as a member of the bargaining team with some data around our, um, 353 00:20:08,290 --> 00:20:12,870 observation system. And, and, um, you know, 354 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,710 as like you guys said, researchers, you know, 355 00:20:15,710 --> 00:20:20,390 put this data and it was very surprising when it came to, um, 356 00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:25,670 bias related to our observation system and the results, um, that really said, 357 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:28,030 there's not a lot of bias towards black women in our, 358 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,470 in our school district when it comes to observation and evaluation, 359 00:20:32,990 --> 00:20:34,750 which was fascinating, you know, 360 00:20:34,750 --> 00:20:38,310 which was very different from experiences that I've had where black women have 361 00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:42,870 been talked about, have that I know. And we've heard, interviewed, 362 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:47,800 talked about how things show up in their professionalism comments about 363 00:20:47,860 --> 00:20:52,120 how they engage in the work, how they carry themselves in meetings, 364 00:20:52,260 --> 00:20:56,120 how approachable are they? Right. And so, like, I think, 365 00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:01,120 I feel like the only way black women are are accepted is if they're super 366 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:05,400 right. If they do everything and they never question any of it. 367 00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:06,920 Or there's the assumption, 368 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:12,280 there's this assumption that black women have such 369 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,000 resilience and such strength that they do not need to be 370 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,320 cared for. And they do not need to be, be supported. 371 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,080 And they do not need to be loved by the, by their superiors. And so it's, 372 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,840 it's time backended compliment. That's. 373 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,680 Great. That's the really scary stuff, 374 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,480 because that goes back to black women can take more pain. 375 00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:37,320 Mm-hmm black women can, can, uh, they can carry more of a burden, 376 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,200 their, 377 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,200 their natural caregivers so they can care beyond what they care for themselves. 378 00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:48,360 Yeah. Right. All of that stuff is rooted in those ideas. 379 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:52,360 Right. And so I, and this is where I get back to, like, I don't, 380 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:56,630 I don't really see people willing to challenge some of the key 381 00:21:57,220 --> 00:22:01,590 root causes of these issues. Right? Yeah. If, 382 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,310 if a black woman raises her voice 383 00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:08,010 and she's gonna be called aggressive, 384 00:22:08,830 --> 00:22:13,130 and we're not gonna put a way for her to be protected from that, 385 00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:16,090 or to train people to understand that, 386 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,050 that she's not being intimidated to you, that this, 387 00:22:20,050 --> 00:22:24,410 this is just a way of expression, right? Yes. 388 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:28,290 And other individuals who express themselves that way are never called 389 00:22:28,290 --> 00:22:32,170 aggressive. Sorry about that. never, Kevin. 390 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:32,970 Has a house phone. 391 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:35,690 We got a landline. I'm I'm 45. We talked. 392 00:22:36,140 --> 00:22:37,650 We a landline. 393 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:39,530 We got one, stop it. 394 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:40,593 Here we are. 395 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:41,713 Stop it. 396 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,130 Yeah. We, you're not wrong, Kevin. I think too. I think that, 397 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,170 I don't think I know that the invisible labor that black women experience from 398 00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:56,050 having so many kids in their classroom. Yeah. Right. I have a good friend, um, 399 00:22:56,050 --> 00:23:00,810 shout out to Laisha who she's just leaving teaching cuz she's tired of the 400 00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:03,610 principal putting so many kids in her classroom. Yeah. 401 00:23:03,610 --> 00:23:07,850 Who I'm quoting heavily here, like our behavior issues for everyone else. Yeah, 402 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,250 yeah. Right. And, and she's going to the principal and saying, 403 00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:14,370 why are you doing this? And it's like, well, you can handle them. 404 00:23:14,370 --> 00:23:18,930 And this is a black principal doing this to her. Yeah. Right. Well, right. 405 00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:23,690 And that plays into the, the sort of internalized white supremacy that, 406 00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:26,730 that we see often times in communities of color. And I can't, 407 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,770 I can't speak to black experiences with this except for, as a listener. 408 00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:36,410 But I know that in my community, um, the Latinx community, 409 00:23:36,410 --> 00:23:40,330 there are a couple of wild things that are happening. So politically, um, 410 00:23:40,330 --> 00:23:43,050 brown women are, you know, 411 00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:47,040 they support progressive policies and democratic party politics for whatever 412 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,920 those are to you support those at a rate of 91 to nine, 413 00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:56,510 the men not so much not there working party. 414 00:23:56,770 --> 00:24:01,670 And uh, and uh, the former president whose name escapes me right now, 415 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,990 um, has seen, yeah, I don't know, 416 00:24:05,050 --> 00:24:09,750 has seen more gains with Latinos like 417 00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:14,430 men than any other group. And so I think about what happens when, 418 00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:17,550 when we become careerists as Palolo Fred 80, 419 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:22,430 we'll frame it when we become people who are willing to climb the ladder and use 420 00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:24,470 our own community as the wrongs. 421 00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:25,573 Mm-hmm . 422 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,070 So I think these are things and, um, Asia, I, 423 00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:31,510 I really appreciate what you said about that invisible labor, 424 00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:35,430 because it makes me think of what our forensic get solid talk about all the 425 00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:35,630 time, 426 00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:40,550 which is that if you're talking about professional violence 427 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,550 towards black and brown women in educational systems in 428 00:24:45,550 --> 00:24:47,670 capitalism, that's labor exploitation, 429 00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:51,230 that's putting too many kids in the classroom that's and you know, 430 00:24:51,230 --> 00:24:54,910 we know that black male teachers also will get the quote unquote behavior 431 00:24:54,910 --> 00:24:59,710 problems and they'll get the, but, but increasingly, you know, it's, 432 00:24:59,710 --> 00:25:03,350 it's more in, in the classrooms of black women educators. 433 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:07,750 And so when we talk about, you know, these working conditions, 434 00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:10,590 the racial battle fatigue, it is, would you say, 435 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,030 is it fair to say that it's rooted in labor exploitation? 436 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,310 Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Um, and I also, I also, 437 00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:20,790 I'm trying to think about, 438 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,850 I know the conversation of black women teaching and then 439 00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:29,130 the family. Right. Mm-hmm so. 440 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,570 That's the piece. Yeah. 441 00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:32,050 That's the piece too. Right. 442 00:25:32,050 --> 00:25:35,450 So I think this is a something that needs to be talked about and considered is 443 00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:40,210 like, we take care of family, right. Cuz traditionally you're supposed to blah, 444 00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:40,990 blah, blah, whatever. 445 00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:45,930 And like what that also brings on the expectations to take care of your family 446 00:25:45,930 --> 00:25:50,290 and then also the sacrifices that family make for black women to stay in 447 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:51,730 teaching. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 448 00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:56,090 And so that's a part of the conversation that we need to have more is what does 449 00:25:56,090 --> 00:26:00,890 it mean to be a black educator, women, woman, um, 450 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,330 non-binary male, whatever, 451 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,290 what does it mean to be an education and to have a family who is 452 00:26:08,290 --> 00:26:10,910 supporting you in this space, 453 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,310 knowing that every single day you're coming home, 454 00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:17,750 talking about like all the racism that you're experiencing. Yeah. 455 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:22,430 Like how does your family take that on? Yeah. Right. Um, I, I, you know, 456 00:26:22,620 --> 00:26:26,670 I remember when I was doing my research and I was interviewing a woman who is 457 00:26:26,670 --> 00:26:30,510 still in teaching and she said that she talks about, I asked her like, 458 00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:33,270 how often do you talk about the racialized experiences you have in, 459 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,390 in school Uhhuh? And she said every day and she said, 460 00:26:37,620 --> 00:26:40,430 I don't know what else we would talk about. Yeah. She said, 461 00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:43,840 I don't know what else we would talk about as a family if I didn't have these 462 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,360 things to talk about. Yeah. 463 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:45,990 Wow. 464 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:46,690 That's. 465 00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:48,120 So it's, so that's really sad. 466 00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:51,840 It displaces other topics that could. 467 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,440 Be a hundred. 468 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,840 Percent at the dinner table. And, and then, 469 00:26:54,850 --> 00:26:59,680 because there's all this trauma and all this pain to process and it's 470 00:27:00,110 --> 00:27:04,520 really tough to process it. Um, alone. Campbell. Were you gonna say on that? No. 471 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,280 I, I, I was just awful again, it's, it's, it's a horrible experience where, 472 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,400 where it's just staying with you and that's the only place where you have, 473 00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,840 and then it's, it just burdens your family because we come home, 474 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,200 you're in a bad mood, you know, you're, you're mad, you're upset, you know, 475 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,480 about what happened and then your family gets tired of hearing about it. 476 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,720 They're like, oh yeah, here I, now I have to hear about so and so, and. 477 00:27:29,230 --> 00:27:32,320 Just quit then just quit. Yeah. So. 478 00:27:32,330 --> 00:27:36,920 Or stick in it because of the last one is in third is almost done with high 479 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,760 school and we that's, that conversation is big too. Is the, that's. 480 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,520 A real one in it. Yep. 481 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,760 Just stick. And I feel like logistic in it is, 482 00:27:44,290 --> 00:27:48,920 is happening more when I talk to folks than it is just quit. Yeah. 483 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,560 Right. Or like, or the person, the educator, I don't, they would say like, 484 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,800 I'm just gonna a couple more years because my, you know, 485 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,880 I need I'm in the district, but we are not our house. Isn't in the district. 486 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,640 And I need to just make sure they get through high school because I like the 487 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,680 district, but we don't live there. Like all these little nuances. Yeah. Right. 488 00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:10,600 And it's, it's, that's the piece, right? It's this, 489 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,520 this it's that psychological negotiation that we're constantly having that keeps 490 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:16,440 black teachers, 491 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760 probably teachers in general with black teachers specifically in that space. 492 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:21,913 Right. 493 00:28:21,950 --> 00:28:26,320 What, yeah. Sorry. Were, were you finished? Mm-hmm okay. Yeah. So like, I, 494 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,000 I just got excited because one thing that I observed over, 495 00:28:29,470 --> 00:28:31,480 over the run of the exit interview, 496 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,160 just again from the producers chair is noticing 497 00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:41,870 how the educators and former educators that you all 498 00:28:41,870 --> 00:28:46,310 interviewed were really, really what's happening outside. Um, 499 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:48,830 some weird birds out here, man. um, 500 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,590 it blew in from somewhere . Um, 501 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,310 so what I observed was that they all could speak really openly 502 00:28:59,310 --> 00:29:04,230 about, um, difficult dynamics with colleagues, difficult dynamics with parents, 503 00:29:04,350 --> 00:29:06,470 difficult dynamics with administration, 504 00:29:07,610 --> 00:29:11,550 but they hadn't actually made the connection to how, 505 00:29:12,410 --> 00:29:14,230 how it affected their family lives. 506 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:17,950 Until you ask the question and when you ask the question, they're like, well, 507 00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:21,430 yeah, I mean, I kind of come, oh, mm-hmm right. 508 00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:25,310 Because I think the thing that, that, that, and, you know, 509 00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:27,550 we've seen the term racial battle, 510 00:29:27,550 --> 00:29:30,390 fatigue pop up in some other areas, 511 00:29:30,410 --> 00:29:34,750 but the piece that always gets left out is the impact on the home life. 512 00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:37,790 And mm-hmm and the impact on the relationships you have at home 513 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:42,360 and where that labor, that, that you are carrying, 514 00:29:42,850 --> 00:29:46,000 um, taxes. You have nothing out left when you get home. 515 00:29:46,910 --> 00:29:51,020 Yeah. And imagine being two black educators in, 516 00:29:51,670 --> 00:29:55,770 um, trying to do that. Right. Yeah. So then where's the space, 517 00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:59,650 if you have children that you support or that you are raising what. 518 00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:00,250 . 519 00:30:00,250 --> 00:30:03,570 Yeah. Like, yeah. That's, I mean, for me is, is terrible. 520 00:30:04,530 --> 00:30:07,390 You know, for me is the first, um, 521 00:30:07,390 --> 00:30:09,470 from my Mexican side to finish college degree. 522 00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:13,030 The other thing I think about cuz you were talking about, you know, um, 523 00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:17,390 folks talking about, you know, should I just stick, should I just tough it out? 524 00:30:17,390 --> 00:30:22,150 Like that kind of thing? Um, for me that's been a very real, 525 00:30:22,380 --> 00:30:26,350 like tension is like, this job is taking a lot out of me, 526 00:30:26,650 --> 00:30:31,110 but I could actually be the first person in my family to have a 527 00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:33,670 relatively predictable and comfortable retirement. 528 00:30:34,170 --> 00:30:37,990 And so where the stakes are higher for people of color, 529 00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:42,510 I feel like they're not as high for the predominantly white teaching workforce. 530 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,820 Um, so we, you know, 531 00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:51,740 I feel like I'm kind of tap dancing around this question because I think, well, 532 00:30:51,770 --> 00:30:56,540 I, I have an idea what the answer is. Um, but I think we also, um, 533 00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:59,340 I think we, I think Kevin, 534 00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:02,460 you open the conversation by saying the situation is dire. 535 00:31:03,310 --> 00:31:07,900 So can anything be done to address this situation? 536 00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:13,870 I mean, well, I won't pull the magazine cover yet. 537 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:19,110 I mean, can anything, I think things can be done. 538 00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:22,670 I think things can be done. And I, I can't wait to hear Asia's response. 539 00:31:23,020 --> 00:31:23,590 I don't think. 540 00:31:23,590 --> 00:31:24,630 I'm watching it right now. 541 00:31:24,660 --> 00:31:26,790 I don't think people are willing to do it. 542 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,850 That's that's what I, uh, that's what I, you say. 543 00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:34,250 What that is like, say, say what it is that, that you. 544 00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:38,890 I mean, I think really it's being willing to, to ultimately cha and, 545 00:31:38,890 --> 00:31:41,090 and this is everywhere, right? And every industry, 546 00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:45,330 every endeavor in this country to ultimately challenge white supremacy, 547 00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:48,650 right. Supremacist culture at its roots, right. 548 00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:51,890 And the schoolhouse is an institution that was built. 549 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,170 It permeated these ideas. Right. 550 00:31:55,170 --> 00:31:59,930 And no matter how many resolutions on equity or black excellence or 551 00:31:59,930 --> 00:32:03,650 all of it that we can put out there, those are just words. Right. 552 00:32:03,790 --> 00:32:06,050 And in the end, if we, 553 00:32:06,140 --> 00:32:10,770 if we do not attack the root cause you cannot, 554 00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:16,270 if you can't, uh, you can heal the symptoms, 555 00:32:16,270 --> 00:32:20,830 but not affect the cause then you can't heal the symptoms. Right. 556 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,470 So like we are not, 557 00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:26,750 you're not addressing the ultimate cause it's white supremacy in this country 558 00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:30,710 and the system that exists. And I don't think, and I, 559 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:35,510 I have not seen a willingness to attack indict 560 00:32:35,510 --> 00:32:40,440 change, transform any of the things that we talk about. Yeah. Right. And, 561 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,560 and, and I think it goes to all sorts of things. I mean, 562 00:32:43,890 --> 00:32:48,600 profess evaluating professionalism, as long as that's gonna be there, 563 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,840 you're gonna, it's gonna be used against black educators to say, 564 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,560 you're not living up to what you should be. And. 565 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,000 Maybe the reality is that any system, 566 00:32:59,260 --> 00:33:04,160 any, well, any tool or practice that is put in place that is 567 00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:09,000 without black educators at the table will inherently be a weapon against black 568 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,280 educators. Um, I, I think, 569 00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:15,680 I think it's one of those things where people think of white supremacy as 570 00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:20,720 this intentional, um, everyday practice. 571 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,160 But the, 572 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,080 what I try to push back on people is that white supremacy is the default 573 00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:30,770 setting. So those who do harm, do harm. 574 00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:34,930 Those who do nothing also do harm because when you do nothing, 575 00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:39,850 it defaults to that default setting, which is okay, well, 576 00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:41,850 if it can't, if we're not gonna make it anything else, 577 00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:44,410 we're just gonna leave it the way it is. It's gonna be white supremacy, 578 00:33:44,410 --> 00:33:47,890 whether we try to or not, um, Asia, your thoughts. 579 00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:51,240 Well, you already know my thoughts because. 580 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680 I know your thoughts, the audience probably does too, but let's, 581 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,680 let's get 'em out here. . 582 00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:59,040 So I just, I wanna say, yeah, yes, exactly what Kevin said. 583 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,840 And I also wanna say that what's not being acknowledged is the history, 584 00:34:04,660 --> 00:34:09,500 right? Yeah. The history and it's, and of, of black education, 585 00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:13,740 black, black excellence, which I'm using very lightly here. Yeah. 586 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,620 Desegregation segregation. 587 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:20,100 We're also not acknowledging that we're talking about retention. 588 00:34:20,290 --> 00:34:22,460 I taught at CU Denver, um, 589 00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:26,860 as an adjunct professor in their school education, um, 590 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,020 for three years and I taught a class that most K six Stu students 591 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:35,020 who were pre-service teachers had to go through to continue their program. 592 00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:39,820 So I saw just about everybody and on no hands, 593 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:44,460 I can count to black male educators that came through me through my class and 594 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:49,420 then three or four black pre-service teachers 595 00:34:49,420 --> 00:34:53,700 came through my classroom in, in, in the six semesters that I taught. 596 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,260 And I will say that one of the teachers that I taught, asked me in class, 597 00:34:58,260 --> 00:35:01,380 or pre-service teachers asked me in class, you know, like, 598 00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:04,630 will I experience racism when I entered teaching? 599 00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:09,710 And she asked me that because when she was doing her hours for my class or not 600 00:35:09,710 --> 00:35:12,310 for, excuse me, not for my class for a different class for her, 601 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:14,350 she had a racialized experience from one of her, 602 00:35:14,350 --> 00:35:16,800 with one of the teachers that was there. Yeah. 603 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,880 So before she even gets into the classroom space, that's right. As an educator, 604 00:35:21,110 --> 00:35:24,760 when she's just simply getting her hours and supporting a teacher, 605 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,400 she's experiencing racial battle fatigue. Yeah. 606 00:35:27,610 --> 00:35:32,390 So we can't even get folks to come to finish out 607 00:35:32,420 --> 00:35:33,110 programs. 608 00:35:33,110 --> 00:35:37,600 Yeah. And especially now, when, when we look at the data on, 609 00:35:38,330 --> 00:35:39,163 on who, 610 00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:43,640 on who is entering teacher preparation programs, 611 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,360 those numbers are down across the board anyway. 612 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:47,720 Yes. 613 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:48,120 Yes. 614 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,600 And I would be really interested to know how those numbers bear out racially. 615 00:35:51,930 --> 00:35:55,280 My assumption is that, is it, 616 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,120 the overall numbers are probably down and my guess would be among black and 617 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,400 brown would be educators it's even like those numbers are plummeting at probably 618 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,520 a more precipitous rate. Do you, 619 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,600 I don't know if you're aware of anything out there at this. 620 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,440 I guess it's hard to say. Yeah. As school years are just about to get started. 621 00:36:12,050 --> 00:36:14,360 So we may not know for a few weeks, but. 622 00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:17,840 Um, first shout out for the word precipitous, 623 00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:21,080 because look the you using vocabulary. Okay. 624 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:21,320 I'm. 625 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,120 Telling you million dollar word, ding D. 626 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:23,960 Ding telling you. 627 00:36:25,610 --> 00:36:29,800 Um, I looked up before we started, uh, taping time magazine, 628 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,800 put out an article January 20, 22, um, 629 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,440 about the 20, 20, 20, 21 school year. And it, uh, 630 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,640 it says black teachers were more than twice as likely as other teachers in the 631 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,160 winter of 2021 to say they plan to leave their jobs at the end of the 632 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,760 20, 20, 20, 21 school year, 633 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,600 according to report released by the Rand corporation. Wow. Right. So, 634 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,120 and this was articles called public schools are struggling to retain black 635 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,440 teachers. These ex teachers explain why. 636 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:03,620 And it came out January 5th, 637 00:37:03,620 --> 00:37:08,500 20, 22. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. Teacher education, 638 00:37:09,290 --> 00:37:12,900 like I said, Colorado's fairly white duh. Right. But I, 639 00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,740 I would say that in my, in my classroom, in my, 640 00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:21,980 these fairly white in my classroom of teachers in, in higher ed yep. 641 00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:27,060 My last semester, they struggled to get teachers there. Yeah. I, my classroom, 642 00:37:27,610 --> 00:37:31,890 I have very low numbers and it was maybe 643 00:37:31,890 --> 00:37:34,130 95% white women. 644 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,570 Yeah. Be, yeah. And, and I'm, and I can tell you from, 645 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,450 from my program where I was scheduled to do some teacher prep, 646 00:37:43,450 --> 00:37:46,930 coursework courses, and some teacher candidate supervision, 647 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,930 I will be doing that because we don't have enough people. We have, um, 648 00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:55,650 you know, the enrollment down. And so if we take the, 649 00:37:55,670 --> 00:38:00,170 the data that you located from the Ram corporation and we 650 00:38:00,970 --> 00:38:03,480 project it forward, right. Mm-hmm . 651 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,200 So if what these black educators were saying, they were feeling in January. 652 00:38:08,330 --> 00:38:13,000 If, if that, if that followed to its logical conclusion. So what, 653 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:13,840 what we have is, 654 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,160 is we are burning the teacher force of the black teacher force at both ends. 655 00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:20,480 We are keeping the ones that we have, 656 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,200 and we aren't enticing any to come into the work. 657 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,513 Right. 658 00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:27,160 So dire, right, Kev. 659 00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:31,480 I mean, , this is what they say, right? 660 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,400 This is what they say they want is more black educators who, who they want. 661 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,200 They want us to come in and they want us to stay here. Right. And, 662 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,640 and I don't know if I, if you asked me, what would I say, 663 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,480 remember Herardo we went and spoke with those incoming educators. 664 00:38:47,790 --> 00:38:49,600 That's always a hard conversation. 665 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,280 What do you say to make black educators in particular, come into this, 666 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,880 come into this job. You're gonna experience microaggressions, blatant racism, 667 00:38:59,470 --> 00:39:03,480 people calling you aggressive because you're advocating for the kids or 668 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:03,960 students. 669 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,480 People being wrong about you every single minute of the day, 670 00:39:08,670 --> 00:39:09,280 people. 671 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,840 Dismissing you, uh, ignoring your contributions, 672 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,240 taking credit for your work that you do. 673 00:39:15,550 --> 00:39:16,383 Listen. 674 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:17,750 . 675 00:39:17,750 --> 00:39:18,360 Listen. 676 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,280 And, and I can't even do that anymore, cuz I'm not in the classroom. 677 00:39:21,330 --> 00:39:26,320 So like , Hey, come be a classroom teacher. I'm not, but you should be. 678 00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:27,160 Yeah. 679 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:27,560 Let. 680 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,440 Let's kinda look at it. So my friend, Brooke brown, uh, 681 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,880 20, 21 Washington teacher of the year, um, 682 00:39:36,220 --> 00:39:38,160 she and I, 683 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,120 and I think she learned this from either Adrian Marie Brown or Miriam Kaba. 684 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,600 I don't remember what source she, she cited here, 685 00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:49,440 but she talks about social justice work being science fiction, right. 686 00:39:49,830 --> 00:39:51,040 That, you know, kind of, 687 00:39:51,110 --> 00:39:55,880 kind of following the example of the great Octavia Butler that you 688 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,960 have to be able to envision a world that does not yet exist. 689 00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,560 Mm-hmm and you have to be able to envision that world. 690 00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:07,600 So probably, and so concretely that you believe it exists, right. 691 00:40:08,130 --> 00:40:11,280 Is there a science fiction version of this story 692 00:40:12,830 --> 00:40:15,410 and Asia before, while y'all marinate on that, 693 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,370 what you said about teaching the history, 694 00:40:18,370 --> 00:40:22,090 I really don't want that piece to get glossed over and I don't want the 695 00:40:22,090 --> 00:40:24,970 listeners to miss that piece because the, 696 00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:29,890 it is no mistake that this panic over quote unquote critical race 697 00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:34,610 theory, it coincides with the, with the mass, 698 00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:38,050 uh, removal of black educators. Well, 699 00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:40,970 if we don't wanna teach black history and we don't wanna teach the uncomfortable 700 00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:42,050 parts of American history, 701 00:40:42,230 --> 00:40:47,010 how can we expect the people who have come from those heritages 702 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:51,570 to be a part of the system and someone else puts something, um, 703 00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:54,930 I'm gonna look for it while y'all process, but yeah. 704 00:40:54,940 --> 00:40:59,450 Is there a science fiction version of this story of 705 00:40:59,770 --> 00:41:01,530 black educators in America? 706 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,410 I just wanna say one thing before I might like having answer that first, 707 00:41:06,410 --> 00:41:10,130 but I wanna say something about what you're saying, you know, um, 708 00:41:10,770 --> 00:41:13,930 Derek bell, who is the father of critical. 709 00:41:13,930 --> 00:41:17,330 Grace get out of my mind. I was gonna mention Derek bell too. Right? 710 00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:18,290 Go ahead. Go. 711 00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:19,050 The. 712 00:41:19,050 --> 00:41:20,610 Bottom of the, well we listen. 713 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,370 Yeah. He has a, he has something called a Derrick bell reader, 714 00:41:23,370 --> 00:41:27,810 which is an anthology of a lot of his work and so much of what so much of his 715 00:41:27,810 --> 00:41:31,250 work focused on the desegregation of schools. Yeah. 716 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:36,520 And what it would do and how it impacted us and how much of a lie was and 717 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,520 how, and so I just find it, I mean, yeah, the man, 718 00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:45,320 I mean 1970s, man. Bingo on right long gone, right? Yeah. 719 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,040 Kimberly Crenshaw obviously was a student at his carries on his work today, 720 00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:54,440 but he was talking about this a long, long time ago. Right. And we, 721 00:41:54,650 --> 00:41:58,480 we at America love to be like, first start clean, start new year, 722 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,360 new you all this bullshit. Yep. 723 00:42:00,660 --> 00:42:03,640 And they're doing the same thing in education and it's not working because black 724 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,320 folks are like Uhuh, same year, same means same you, same whatever. 725 00:42:07,780 --> 00:42:12,320 And the more we keep doing that brand new start, new initiative, clean slate, 726 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,520 blueprint, green print. 727 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,280 But the more we do that and pretend like we add something new and not 728 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,070 acknowledge and not just like last year, 729 00:42:21,070 --> 00:42:22,630 but for all these years, 730 00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:27,520 the longer we just do not acknowledge the more we're gonna go on and have these 731 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,360 conversations. Yeah. Period. 732 00:42:29,850 --> 00:42:33,890 So Kevin Afrofuturism, what do you think? 733 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,570 I mean, whenever you get to that, I, I speak of space traders and I'm like, 734 00:42:38,570 --> 00:42:40,850 well, what would they come? What if they come and say, say, 735 00:42:40,850 --> 00:42:43,570 we want all of your black educators, we're gonna take, we, 736 00:42:43,570 --> 00:42:46,970 it will fix your education. It will fix all the gaps. 737 00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:51,530 All you have to do is give us all of your black educators. We don't, 738 00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:56,240 we're not gonna tell you what we want for four. Right. 739 00:42:56,730 --> 00:43:01,240 Because they want us because they see us as a solution to the problem. Right. 740 00:43:01,310 --> 00:43:05,120 Mm-hmm but they don't really want us to be the solution to the 741 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:05,400 problem. 742 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:06,080 Well, they see, 743 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,160 they see all as a solution to a problem that they have not identified mm-hmm. 744 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:11,033 . 745 00:43:11,250 --> 00:43:11,720 So they, 746 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:15,640 they know that there's a talking point and they know that they turned their 747 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,480 little social media profile pictures to a black square two years ago. Um, 748 00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:25,440 and so they know they have to do the thing or appear to be doing the thing. 749 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,760 Like, I, I think in age, I think what you were sort of talking about with, uh, 750 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,120 with Dr. Bell and the, and that in, 751 00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:36,720 in that prophetic voice was this idea of interest convergence. Right. 752 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:39,080 And yes, the idea that yes, 753 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,840 white supremacy and white people will just not act until 754 00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:48,160 a benefit can be manufactured for them. And so what. 755 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,640 Is, yeah, what is the benefit? We know the answer to this, 756 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:56,440 but they cannot imagine there being a benefit of having a black teacher in front 757 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,273 of a white student. 758 00:43:57,670 --> 00:44:00,080 Well, the, you know, it's interesting though, 759 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,360 because the data obviously shows that, um, 760 00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:07,680 that teachers of color, particularly black teachers are good for all kids, 761 00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,440 not just black kids, but, but, 762 00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:14,640 but that's kind of where it's like when we're engaging families and kids, 763 00:44:15,110 --> 00:44:19,840 that's rarely where the problem starts. Right. It's internal, 764 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,640 it's like this it's, uh, what's solid qualities, um, you know, 765 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,880 line from beautiful struggle, um, looking for the, looking for the cure, 766 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,960 but you can't see what's hurting you. Right. Cause it's inside, um, is personal. 767 00:44:32,410 --> 00:44:35,240 Um, and when I think Afrofuturism, I think sun. 768 00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:40,240 Um, and they don't want, and they don't wanna, and people don't wanna take the, 769 00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,160 they don't wanna admit it. Right? The, like the dominant culture, 770 00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:46,160 the people who are involved in this, they wanna say, well, 771 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,240 we've done some things and that's helped to fix it. Right. And, and again, 772 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,640 it's that experience of, well, we've done this, we've done that, but. 773 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:54,360 Incremental. 774 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,360 Black educators, 775 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,160 it feels like you haven't done anything for those of us who've been around and 776 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,640 been through it. Mm-hmm it feels like you've done very little. 777 00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:02,880 I think it's interesting. 778 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,480 So what I've done is I've like set this up as a really complex question. 779 00:45:06,820 --> 00:45:09,760 I'm starting to hear from both of you. It's not that complex. 780 00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:15,160 What it is is you celebrate the presence of black 781 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,400 teachers for who they are. You support them for who they are. 782 00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:20,720 You let them show up as their authentic selves. 783 00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:25,480 You let them sit at tables of power and actually have decision making power and 784 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,440 have a voice. 785 00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:31,560 You let them advance as them selves. Is it that simple? 786 00:45:32,330 --> 00:45:36,080 So yes. And you teach, this is, this is the issue with that. 787 00:45:36,660 --> 00:45:39,270 This is the thing, cuz you've lost our trust. 788 00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:44,810 So it's gonna be years of doing that before you start seeing a return. 789 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,770 Yeah. In my mind, I could be dead wrong, 790 00:45:48,110 --> 00:45:52,810 but in my mind it would take like, yeah, they're doing that now. 791 00:45:52,810 --> 00:45:55,330 Mm-hmm let's watch 'em now. Sure, sure, sure. 792 00:45:55,660 --> 00:46:00,210 It would take a long time before the tide turns, because again, 793 00:46:00,910 --> 00:46:02,730 the history, right. 794 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,970 It's been more than two years. It's been more than two years. 795 00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:07,450 yeah. And you think, 796 00:46:07,450 --> 00:46:12,170 I mean just how black folks around the country responded to like vaccines for 797 00:46:12,170 --> 00:46:16,210 COVID. Yeah. And how long did we like Skee happen? Yeah. 798 00:46:16,450 --> 00:46:20,290 so like it's gonna take a lot of, 799 00:46:20,290 --> 00:46:24,170 and a long time of, of districts showing up. 800 00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:27,690 And I don't think that folks are gonna wanna do that work for that long. 801 00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:29,050 They're gonna be, like we said, we were, 802 00:46:29,050 --> 00:46:31,730 we are gonna change and you're not changing. So we're forgetting. 803 00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:32,563 We're just not so. 804 00:46:32,690 --> 00:46:36,410 Well. Yeah. And yeah. And I, and I think too, to that point, when you, 805 00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:38,130 when you take the 10,000 foot view, 806 00:46:38,130 --> 00:46:43,010 what we have is we have an educational system that denied access to 807 00:46:43,010 --> 00:46:46,850 black people in America when it was established that if you are a black person, 808 00:46:46,850 --> 00:46:48,170 you could not get educated. 809 00:46:48,170 --> 00:46:53,130 They were faster to get a police force in place before they could get 810 00:46:53,130 --> 00:46:56,770 schools in place for black people to attend. So what we're looking at is, 811 00:46:57,140 --> 00:47:01,890 so what we're telling you is that we denied you systematically access to 812 00:47:01,890 --> 00:47:04,650 education, but now we really need you. 813 00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:07,410 And over 150 years has passed in that time. 814 00:47:07,890 --> 00:47:10,810 We've been, they've denied us access to white education. 815 00:47:11,460 --> 00:47:15,650 So black people have educated ourselves from lovely forever. 816 00:47:16,250 --> 00:47:16,650 Apologizing. 817 00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:17,130 Such. 818 00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:17,890 An important copy. 819 00:47:17,890 --> 00:47:21,650 You're good. No, yeah. We, we figured out a long time ago, 820 00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:25,330 how to sneak out sheets of the Bible to learn how to read and how to read the 821 00:47:25,330 --> 00:47:28,370 stars and blah, blah, blah. So they denied us. Yes. New books. 822 00:47:28,370 --> 00:47:32,760 They would denied us working school buses. They've denied us, fill the blank, 823 00:47:32,780 --> 00:47:37,240 but they have, they cannot deny us education because we always had it. 824 00:47:37,390 --> 00:47:40,760 Yeah. However, and maybe that's the solution. 825 00:47:40,940 --> 00:47:42,360 Ooh. Kevin just hit a mic drop. 826 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,280 yeah. Kevin's out. Right. 827 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,880 Kevin's out. He's like, I got nothing to add. Yeah. 828 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,440 Maybe that's this. Maybe that's the part of the solution. Yeah. Right. 829 00:47:50,450 --> 00:47:52,880 Is thinking about, let's just take, 830 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,040 what if we just take this off the table of like going and working in public 831 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,880 school systems and think about a, a black lives matter 52, 80 school, 832 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,360 shout out to our next hypothe. 833 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:04,400 Hypothetically. Right? 834 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,440 Hypothetically, hypothetically like, 835 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,680 cuz this is not working we're we're we in loops in circles and going over and 836 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,760 over again. So if, if we took this off the table, if we said this will never, 837 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,240 ever happen, just forget it. You'll never get the respect you deserve. 838 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,090 Just forget thinking about it. How will we show up differently for ourselves? 839 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,370 Yeah. And we choose to teach. I don't mean lead, but I mean, yeah. 840 00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:30,410 How will we choose if we choose to stay in the classroom then what? 841 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,490 Yeah. And that's that, 842 00:48:33,490 --> 00:48:38,170 that is sort of the science fiction, like sort of thing where we, 843 00:48:38,170 --> 00:48:40,470 we have not, we, 844 00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,550 we have kept like these have been these EDU educational spaces, 845 00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:50,270 you refer to have been fugitive spaces, right? These have been spaces where, 846 00:48:50,270 --> 00:48:53,470 where, you know, they had to exist in secret. 847 00:48:53,470 --> 00:48:58,430 They had to exist away from the gaze of white supremacy 848 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,310 as, so what if we just legitimize it and say, 849 00:49:01,310 --> 00:49:04,910 this is just gonna be what it is and we legitimize it for ourselves and we make 850 00:49:04,910 --> 00:49:08,150 that happen. Um, you there. 851 00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:12,960 I think Kevin has some bad internet. 852 00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:16,960 Says his internet is struggling well. So maybe, uh, 853 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,920 this will be a good time to kind of take it home and, you know, sort of, uh, 854 00:49:21,110 --> 00:49:22,400 sort of put a, um, 855 00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:25,640 put this one in the canister and get it ready to get in front of the people. 856 00:49:26,770 --> 00:49:30,880 So as exit, let's see. Can you hear me? My Internet's going, 857 00:49:31,370 --> 00:49:32,203 we can hear you. 858 00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:38,260 All right. If you're talking, we cannot hear you. 859 00:49:38,370 --> 00:49:39,260 Mm-hmm . 860 00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:44,680 All right. Um, here, I'm gonna pause real quick. Oh wait. No, you're recording. 861 00:49:45,820 --> 00:49:46,990 Just pause for a second. 862 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,690 Alrighty. Apologies for the technical difficulties. Um, 863 00:49:54,090 --> 00:49:57,730 internets are racist as it turns out. So, um, 864 00:49:58,370 --> 00:50:01,410 so we're here. We're gonna go ahead and take this home. 865 00:50:01,410 --> 00:50:04,930 We're gonna wrap up and, um, and give a little bit of foreshadowing, 866 00:50:04,930 --> 00:50:09,410 a little bit of musing on the future at this moment. Um, 867 00:50:09,740 --> 00:50:11,970 Dr. A alliances, Kevin Adams, 868 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,370 with the work that we've done with the exit interview, 869 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,850 a question may emerge for a lot of people that if it's the same story over 870 00:50:20,850 --> 00:50:21,683 and over again, 871 00:50:21,790 --> 00:50:26,570 and if we already know what the experiences of black educators, 872 00:50:26,570 --> 00:50:29,200 particularly women educators are gonna be. 873 00:50:29,460 --> 00:50:34,440 And if we know that the healing process that would put 874 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,440 that would hypothetically bring black educators back into American classrooms, 875 00:50:39,590 --> 00:50:42,040 even if there was the patience to do that, 876 00:50:42,450 --> 00:50:46,480 it just doesn't seem like the answer. 877 00:50:46,750 --> 00:50:50,120 Like why do we keep, why do we wanna keep telling these stories? 878 00:50:50,140 --> 00:50:53,680 Why do we wanna keep being out here with these stories? Um, 879 00:50:53,740 --> 00:50:55,320 and though that's not a question I have, 880 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,800 but that's a question that others may have is like, okay, 881 00:50:58,230 --> 00:51:02,400 like that we know how this is gonna happen. Um, 882 00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:03,760 why should we keep doing it? 883 00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:07,530 Um, I'll go first. That's okay, Kevin. 884 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:09,050 Yeah, go ahead. 885 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,090 When I, 886 00:51:10,090 --> 00:51:14,730 when I thought about this podcast and I thought about my reasonings behind this 887 00:51:14,730 --> 00:51:17,370 podcast, the purpose of it, 888 00:51:17,370 --> 00:51:22,250 and it will always be to let black educators know that there is a whole 889 00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:27,090 world outside of teaching that appreciates. And you, 890 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,770 it's not about it's about the classroom teacher obviously, 891 00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:35,930 but there's this part we ask that's the most important, 892 00:51:35,930 --> 00:51:38,250 which is like with two questions, 893 00:51:38,250 --> 00:51:41,450 the first one is what are you doing now that you've left the classroom? 894 00:51:42,690 --> 00:51:46,190 And so that's, that's what I want black educators. 895 00:51:46,190 --> 00:51:49,670 And this is who the podcast is for is for black educators. Right? 896 00:51:50,460 --> 00:51:55,350 I want black educators to hear folks saying I'm doing X and Y and Z and 897 00:51:55,350 --> 00:51:58,870 still impacting youth and doing these things and working for this nonprofit and 898 00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:59,910 doing this consulting work. 899 00:51:59,910 --> 00:52:00,743 Or working for myself. 900 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,630 Or working for, right. 901 00:52:02,700 --> 00:52:07,190 I want folks to hear that black teachers to hear that and say like, 902 00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:11,150 you know what? I knew that person and I knew they left, 903 00:52:11,150 --> 00:52:13,630 but I wonder what happened and she's not dead. 904 00:52:14,090 --> 00:52:18,910 She didn't disappear in the ether. Yeah. He didn't whatever they continue on. 905 00:52:18,910 --> 00:52:23,170 We continue on to support youth in all types of ways, 906 00:52:23,170 --> 00:52:26,330 support our communities in all types of ways. And that's, 907 00:52:26,330 --> 00:52:31,330 that's why I am here to make sure that black educators who are 908 00:52:31,330 --> 00:52:34,130 in our audience understand that there is, 909 00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:37,250 if you have chosen that psychological negotiation, 910 00:52:37,250 --> 00:52:39,290 if you and your family have had that conversation. 911 00:52:39,290 --> 00:52:42,490 And it's something that you're considering know that there are people out here 912 00:52:42,490 --> 00:52:47,440 doing it and they are thriving, they are thriving. So that's, 913 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:52,200 that's why I continue to make sure that we have folks on this show 914 00:52:52,670 --> 00:52:56,480 that tell their story because we are thriving out here, 915 00:52:57,620 --> 00:52:58,820 Kevin. Yeah. 916 00:52:59,290 --> 00:53:03,540 I, I mean, I think, I think that's so important, right? And I think back, 917 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,660 you know, we think about the history and like, uh, 918 00:53:06,660 --> 00:53:10,500 what you brought up Asia that black people have always found a way to get our 919 00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:15,140 education. Right. And, and, and I think what it comes back to is they, 920 00:53:15,140 --> 00:53:18,140 they're always gonna try to prove that we are inept and, and, 921 00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:20,620 and somehow less than right. And, 922 00:53:20,620 --> 00:53:24,860 and education in school is a very easy way to do that. 923 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,880 Especially when the school is, uh, dominated by white culture. 924 00:53:29,110 --> 00:53:31,200 Mm-hmm . And so when, when I, 925 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,980 when I start to think about is, you know, 926 00:53:35,980 --> 00:53:37,420 what are those, what, 927 00:53:37,420 --> 00:53:42,180 what is the way that we can plan for the future that takes us out of the 928 00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:45,980 system, right? That removes, uh, you know, 929 00:53:45,980 --> 00:53:47,740 black people from this system, 930 00:53:47,870 --> 00:53:52,100 because we know that the system wasn't intended for us. Right. 931 00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:54,060 Mm-hmm . And so I think that's the important thing. 932 00:53:54,060 --> 00:53:57,820 What are those other ways that we can still get to our people, educate, 933 00:53:57,820 --> 00:54:00,900 inspire children, let them know where they come from. 934 00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:05,380 And I think that's the most inspiring thing that I get from the exit interview 935 00:54:05,380 --> 00:54:07,260 that I, and I, and I thank you, 936 00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:12,020 Asia for always raising that up and going back to that point is that there are 937 00:54:12,020 --> 00:54:16,780 other options. And then I think about the history and in particular, 938 00:54:17,210 --> 00:54:22,060 that being a teacher was one of the few opportunities that black women had, 939 00:54:22,340 --> 00:54:24,020 right? Mm-hmm in, 940 00:54:24,970 --> 00:54:29,940 when we had segregated schools and black women lost that opportunity, right. 941 00:54:29,940 --> 00:54:32,060 And black women were dynamic at it. 942 00:54:32,060 --> 00:54:36,660 And we all know people who grew up with black educators, uh, 943 00:54:36,660 --> 00:54:40,260 and in segregated schools, right. Either, um, 944 00:54:40,550 --> 00:54:45,220 because of redlining or because legally they were segregated. Right. 945 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:48,020 And we know that those women were incredible. 946 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,380 And when they went and started to teach in white schools, those same teachers, 947 00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:56,100 those same black women were often criticized for their approaches. 948 00:54:56,100 --> 00:55:00,860 And I've seen it happen. Right. I've seen it happen in my career where they, 949 00:55:00,860 --> 00:55:04,180 where older, black women in particular criticized for their approaches. 950 00:55:04,180 --> 00:55:08,420 So I think it's important for us to see that we've moved past those times and 951 00:55:08,420 --> 00:55:10,860 that black women in particular can, 952 00:55:10,860 --> 00:55:15,100 can accomplish amazing things beyond the system 953 00:55:15,410 --> 00:55:20,140 that has been sanctioned and established by the dominant white 954 00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:21,740 supremacist culture. Mm-hmm. 955 00:55:21,780 --> 00:55:22,250 . 956 00:55:22,250 --> 00:55:24,300 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 957 00:55:25,310 --> 00:55:30,100 So it folks may come to this podcast when they see the exit interview 958 00:55:30,100 --> 00:55:34,780 pop up on their feed. And when we typically think of an exit interview, 959 00:55:34,780 --> 00:55:38,900 when most people think of an exit interview, an exit interview, um, 960 00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:43,540 is framed to benefit the employer. Right. Well yep. If you'll do, 961 00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:47,980 if you'll do an exit interview with us and then we can just learn from it and 962 00:55:47,980 --> 00:55:51,700 maybe make the institution better and make this, make this whole thing better. 963 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,140 But what we're doing here with two do productions, 964 00:55:55,330 --> 00:55:59,380 exit interview is to say, here's how I exited. 965 00:55:59,610 --> 00:56:01,940 This is just one way you can do it. Mm-hmm . 966 00:56:01,940 --> 00:56:04,060 And if you have those doubts, 967 00:56:04,670 --> 00:56:07,940 if you have those hesitations, 968 00:56:07,940 --> 00:56:11,500 if this is taking more out of you than what it's giving you, 969 00:56:13,230 --> 00:56:14,570 you don't have to stay. 970 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,660 Mm-hmm yeah. Mm-hmm yeah. 971 00:56:19,930 --> 00:56:21,100 Well, y'all, that's. 972 00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:24,880 It, that's important. I think it's an important lesson. Right. And, and, 973 00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:29,950 and you could still impact change and possibly at a greater 974 00:56:29,950 --> 00:56:30,700 level. 975 00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:34,870 I was just gonna say, when we look at what some of these folks are doing it, 976 00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:36,630 like, you know, . 977 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,130 Like real inspiring work, 978 00:56:40,130 --> 00:56:44,850 which is why I'm so excited for our next guest that is coming on the 979 00:56:44,850 --> 00:56:45,683 exit interview. 980 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:47,850 Yeah. Who's that next guest. 981 00:56:49,050 --> 00:56:53,760 So our next guest is Ranta Lockett. Ranta Lockett is, uh, 982 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,960 part of the black lives matter 52, 80 crew. 983 00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,360 She is the director of their freedom school. 984 00:56:59,900 --> 00:57:04,680 And she's talking to us about her experience in education as an 985 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,800 educator. And now with, along with so many dope teachers, 986 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,240 dope folks in the community, um, 987 00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:16,160 is trying to open up a freedom school here in Denver. And I'm sure she'll, 988 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,280 I don't know if she will or now, 989 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,720 but I'm sure she'll talk about the experience of what that's been like and the 990 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,200 why and what they've doing and what they've been doing so far. I know they had, 991 00:57:24,610 --> 00:57:28,480 uh, summer camp this summer that was wait, listed. So many kids went to it. 992 00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,240 So we'll definitely talk to her, um, 993 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,920 as she's talking about and she's living in that Afrofuturism, right? Yeah. 994 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,320 And she's living in that space where black folks are here for black folks with 995 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,920 black folks. Yeah. So we're excited for that. That. 996 00:57:41,130 --> 00:57:43,560 Be great for sure. And I feel like, um, 997 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,920 I feel like brand to locket will have a couple of exit interviews to give. 998 00:57:48,030 --> 00:57:52,800 I feel like there's a couple of sets of experiences that it exist 999 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,960 there in her world. So well, Dr. Asia alliances, Kevin Adams, 1000 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,680 thank you so much for just doing this deep reflection, 1001 00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,600 this fearless reflection, this, um, 1002 00:58:03,710 --> 00:58:08,680 this just completely real and authentic reflection with me this 1003 00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,560 evening. Um, folks, if you like, 1004 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,520 what you're getting here with the exit interview, 1005 00:58:14,550 --> 00:58:19,240 follow us at Tudo teachers on all social media platforms. You can also, 1006 00:58:19,450 --> 00:58:21,840 if you, you know, I don't know, 1007 00:58:22,350 --> 00:58:26,960 want to support grassroots people of color created 1008 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,240 media, you can go to patreon.com/two Oak teachers. 1009 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,960 We've got some big things coming in the next few weeks and months. 1010 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,920 Y'all you wanna get in on it? You wanna be able to support it. 1011 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,480 And you know what I'm gonna say this again. We, we have stickers. 1012 00:58:39,530 --> 00:58:41,640 We don't have t-shirts, we don't have swag. 1013 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,160 We don't have a million things that we can give you. 1014 00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:49,040 But the important thing is whether you're actually supporting, um, this work, 1015 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,640 because there isn't really any other platform like this one mm-hmm 1016 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:54,760 um, so come here and support it. 1017 00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,880 You can get advanced episodes of the exit interview of, uh, 1018 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,120 habitually disruptive with me hit Munos. And of course the flagship podcast, 1019 00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,840 Tudo teachers, and a mic, um, in the coming weeks, 1020 00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,320 Kevin and I will also talk about how our relationship has changed on the podcast 1021 00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:14,080 and how the podcast may be a little bit different in, um, 1022 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:18,240 the months and years to come. So thank you all for being here. Um, 1023 00:59:18,570 --> 00:59:23,480 we are looking forward to engaging with you for at least another school year.