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And
let by story before.
Go, Hey, yo,
what he is good at everybody. Welcome you. Good interview.
People go. No people probably might not know your voice on this.
Podcast. You were like, what?
Wait, who was that talking?
I thought I was wait. I thought.
This was the exit interview. Where's Dr. Asia Lyons. Where's Kevin happens.
Well, I got news for you, everybody. They are right here. Yes, yo,
what's up people.
Hey.
Y'all do it. Hey, so, uh,
you may be extremely confused if you are one of our regular exit interview
listeners. Um,
we are on the Eve of the 2223 school year.
We know some of you have already started shout out,
made the odds be ever in your favor as you reenter classrooms and schools
and your buildings and, um, and you know, live in that amazing life.
So what we decided to do, um, for this, um,
for this episode of the exit interview is I hit out your
20, 21 Colorado teacher of the year, um,
and former classroom teacher, um,
am going to be conducting an interview with Dr.
Asia Lys and with Kevin Adams. This was a great idea.
Yes, I think is a good idea. So, um, so Asia,
let's talk a little bit, like if, if y'all could maybe, um,
just share with the audience a little bit about why we all decided to take this
approach this time, um, that way they can kind of,
we can give 'em a little roadmap as to what, uh, what they're about to hear.
Yeah, sure. So I think we had last summer, we had, uh, uh,
a chance to talk and do the re the mix tape. Right. That's right.
And so we didn't do that this, this summer,
but I think that Kevin and I have had lots of conversations and two G right
after we wrapping up to say, like, that was really dope,
or let's talk about that more somewhere else. And like,
this is a somewhere else. Right.
So just kind of collecting some of our data from folks and what we've heard and
what we've been thinking about. And just,
this is a time for us to reflect as a crew about like,
what we find really interesting about these conversations.
What's really important.
What has not been solved and some things that maybe have been solved since we've
talked to so many folks.
Yeah, yeah.
Can it's like our takeaways, right? Yes. Like what, what do we take away? What,
what, what have we learned from these interviews?
Because I think there's a lot to learn and, you know, what,
what trends are we noticing as we,
as we go through these interviews and the commonalities when it comes to,
uh, black educators exiting the classroom.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think this is good. And I think, um,
and I think it, it's, it's just great, because I think as you both know,
when you are kind of neck deep in the work from, you know,
from your perspective, so Kevin, as a classroom teacher, um,
a forever classroom teacher, apparently, uh,
we'll get to that part later on .
Yeah, let's do that.
Um, we'll get to that part later on, but,
but sort of where you are processing this work, Kevin, as a,
as a classroom teacher and where Dr. Lyons, where Asia, you are talking, um,
from your perspective as a researcher and a scholar in this area, and, you know,
I, I just have to make sure I'm gonna be saying Dr. Lyons the whole time or Dr.
Asia, Dr.
That, and it's beautiful. You have matriculated and.
It.
I was on the front row, so they played that song the whole time and it went on,
it went for like four.
Loops. Yeah. Acronym to think. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Keep playing it. Well, let's, uh, let's dive right in. Um,
because I think that this is a question, um,
actually I wish I could say this was a question on so many people's minds in
education, but it is not,
this is a question that should be on the minds of everyone in education.
So in the midst of this crisis in staffing that is looming
over our schools, um,
what is you all's perspective on the state
of black educators today? Right now,
the Eve of the 20 22, 20 23 school year,
if you could sort of sum up in general terms where we at.
Kevin, you wanna go first?
I'll go first.
Cover boy.
I mean, stop it. based, based on.
Wait, hold on. I'm gonna interrupt real quick.
So I'm not a union member anymore, but, um,
but Kevin was on the cover of NEA today for August
of 2022. And, um,
we are getting all kinds of fan mailed, uh.
Oh, wow.
Hand messages, people, so excited. Um.
So it's great.
Anyway, so.
Kevin.
Take it away.
I mean, I, to be honest, the state of, of black educators right now,
I, I I'd say it's, it's pretty dire. I don't think it looks good. Um,
I think based on, on what I've seen, the trends that I've seen,
the interviews that we've done, um, I don't,
I don't, I don't really know. And I think we'll,
we'll probably talk more about this, but I don't know how much,
uh, this system can,
can do to help black educators stay in the classroom. Mm-hmm ,
you know, I, I think I,
based on the stories that I've heard in my recent experiences on the bargaining
team, um, in my school district, um,
as we negotiate our master con or our, um, main agreement,
uh, I, I don't see,
I don't envision a future where people are willing to do or make radical
changes.
That will be the things that are gonna deal with the issues that we have heard
about throughout the exit interview, Asia, your thoughts.
Yeah. I have to agree. I don't think. And, and our, our hope our, um, guests,
excuse me, have said it so many times we asked the question,
what do you think that unions and, um,
school districts can do to keep black educators in classrooms?
And folks have said over and over again, nothing,
and almost like laughing when they say it, like, it's,
it's just not gonna happen. Yeah. And if folks did have ideas,
it's not like the unions or school districts, or whoever makes these decisions,
it's gonna do anything about it, or actually follow some of these directions.
So, yeah, I'm not seeing, I'm not seen this,
like now no longer a slow leak, but just flood of black educators leaving.
I'm not seeing that ending anytime soon. I think I said this before we started,
um, recording that, you know, I, I interview, uh,
five black educators and their families for my research and out of those five
black educators, when I go back and check on those folks out of five,
three of them are, are still teaching and two of them have left. Right. So,
and this was, I interviewed them maybe like January. Right. Wow.
And I could be more as the time goes on. Yeah. So, yeah. Um,
and folks are doing other things they're totally out of teaching altogether.
Some folks have chose to do like teacher coaching in a consulting space.
So still with youth, but in a different capacity, but just,
I don't foresee it. Um, I don't foresee it being fixed anytime soon.
Yeah.
So in a word, it makes me think of Tampa bay, buck ears, coach Morris,
a few years ago, they ask him about Steve's poor performance and he goes,
it's not very good. and yeah.
So I think what we would say here is that the situation is not very good. Um,
we, you have you both. And, and I,
in my capacity as producer, um,
I get to kind of be the fly on the wall or the fly behind the zoom camera, um,
that is, uh, listening and trying to process and make sense of,
of what is being shared. Um,
one of the threads that has happened is that it's the same story,
right?
It's the same story when we have these issues of black teacher attrition.
What's that story?
Oh, well, you know, it's, it's the pain, right? It's, it's the silence,
it's the, um, welcoming the black educator. And specifically,
we'll talk about this probably a little bit more,
but specifically black women's experience on our podcast. Yeah.
Of like feeling welcomed and feeling good about the space and that slowly
changing over time. Right. Folks who said,
like they've started committees and di things and done the work and work with
kids, and then people are telling them, oh, just be honest with me.
If you see me doing something, call me out, then they get,
they call them out and then it's silence. Right.
Or policies and procedures and just nitpicking and all these things.
So that constant, you know, and it just goes on and on and on.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I, I, you hit it right on the head, uh, Asia,
that, it's definitely that, um,
common experience, I think, where, where people come in and,
and in particular black women and they feel good, they're ready to do the work.
They're excited. They've been work, you know,
wanting to be educators throughout their lives and they come in
and then, and then they begin to advocate or push back. Right. You know,
and, and for whatever reason, there's always things that cause them to see,
start to see the inequities,
whether it's like they become very blatant or the inequities come
against them. Right. But,
and then it's always followed by this exact same thing. Oh,
now you're aggressive. Now you're the problem.
Now you don't work well with people. You don't, you're not good for staff,
you know, and I think that has been one of the most interesting trends
that I have seen in our exit interviews.
And, and to that point, um, I think, you know,
that makes me think of early interviews that you all conducted with Satara and
with Annalise who, you know, and particularly Satara the,
a big part of her story that really stuck with me was that how there were
principles like bidding for her,
like begging her to come to their school. And,
and I think the manner with which that dynamic
turned on a dime and, um, and just got toxic,
right. Yeah. From the legal perspective. And so that, so that's kind of,
you know, sort of, as I think back on the interviews that,
that I've produced and put together, uh, with you,
all those kind of come to mind, what were you gonna say, Asia?
I was just thinking about this, this particular season. We've had folks,
we've had administrators been interviewed, um, on our show.
And we also had someone who, uh, shout out to Stacy, Brandon and Dr.
Patterson, Stacy, Brandon, uh, was executive director,
whatever the title was for the I, for her school.
District school district.
Right. And so, so many folks say, well, if,
if I just get my principal licensure,
then I'm gonna be a principal and change things around.
Or if I'm just do and it,
and those two interviews alone will let you know.
And if you have not heard them, please go back and listen. Yeah. Yeah.
It's not about just it's, it's beyond this power. Right. If I just move up,
if I have more power, right. It's really about the systemic,
right. So you, you can be have all these licenses, you can have a doctorate,
you can have these things,
and it does not change the narrative black educators at, in all capacities.
Right. And doctor, or excuse me, Stacy BRN was a social worker.
She wasn't an education as a teacher.
Not a.
Question. The same.
Experience. Yeah.
Yep. It goes back to this idea of white supremacy that no matter what,
right. No matter what you achieve, what you accomplish, mm-hmm, ,
they will take it away whenever they need to. Right. And, and, and they will,
and then you will just be another black educator.
Who's part of the problem. Right? Who,
who does it and they'll play us against each other. Right.
And I'm talking about black educators, they'll play us against each other.
Right. And, and,
and I feel like I've experienced some of this recently,
you know, where, where it's like, well, this is what, uh, you know,
is best for black students. And if black educators are asking for this,
then they maybe don't value black students and the needs of black students.
Right.
That's amazing.
And, and that's amazing. And, and, and it's, it's like, wait,
just because I asked for my needs to be met means that I,
I don't value the needs of black students. What's the goal is,
and this is where we go back to the bigger question. Can any be anything,
are they willing to do anything that doesn't seem, it doesn't seem, it does it,
from my perspective, it doesn't feel like they're willing to do anything.
Let's um, let, let's, let's put a pin in that, cuz that's how I,
I want us to sort of conclude a little bit because I think that will be a really
big question. So spoil alert, Kevin is skeptical. .
Even though I'm gonna do this forever.
No, cuz.
Apparently this job would love it. Right. We're .
Apparently we'll talk about that too, but, but I think so. So just to, so we'll,
we'll come to that in a second. Um,
one of the thing that things that kind of Springs to mind for me too, and Asia,
when you talked about the systemic, uh, reality that oppresses and um,
kicks out black educators, um,
the thing that kind of comes to mind for me is that systems are upheld by
people, right? Oh yeah. So the system can't just live on itself,
that it has to have individuals making choices daily,
whether they're gonna uphold it or not. And it may be like little tiny choices.
Like you see a tense,
a tense exchange happening and you just kind of put your head down,
it's your cubicle and say, oh, I'm not gonna get involved in that. Um,
and it could be really major things like what happens with, you know,
you talked about Dr. Patterson, I think back to Darlene, Dr.
Darlene Sampson mm-hmm and um, you know,
people who were elevated specifically to do this work.
One thing that also came out and all three of us noticed is credit to us,
virtue signaling for all of us. Right. Especially me and ke is CI dudes.
Um, so one, one, um,
one thing that really has, uh,
emerged is that for the most part,
the experiences of black women educators,
a little bit different from the experiences of some black male educators.
And one thing I'm going to say,
because it's a weird thing for a not black person to say on a podcast. But, um,
but I do wanna sort of, you know, Asia,
you suggested an intersectional lens on this. Do you wanna speak to this?
Yeah. So we've interviewed only two black men in our two seat,
3, 3, 3.
Cause there was, there was Michael, Michael.
Michael. Oh. And Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.
But he's kind of like he's yeah, I'm on, I'm on the, I'm on the edge folks.
Yeah. He's.
Gonna do this forever.
Forever, forever.
You've had three black men on the show and out of those three black men,
two of them really had this.
They shared experience of like it not being so bad and they chose to leave and
they've had like great experiences with their administrators and like all this
support and it was their ch and it was just like this it's not racial battle
fatigue. It.
Was a calling for them. It was a.
It was a calling. It was time for them to go.
They got a better job or they decided to, um,
go into consulting or decided to move into higher ed decided to whatever. Yeah.
Um, and they was just like, not, like I said before,
not the experience of the black woman we've interviewed. No.
And so I really want to think about more and maybe as time goes on,
we'll have more data around this and I've said data twice,
and now I'm a super nerd in this one episode, but.
She's data now. Right.
Qualitative data about, well, you have to.
Really, you have to linkage whether it's longitudinal or, you know, anyway.
But, but longitudinal data. Yeah. Over the time. Yeah. And so you stop it,
stop making fun of your people. Yeah, exactly. My crew. Right.
I mean, you have to remember Kevin,
like academic there's no coincidence at academic also means irrelevant.
Irrelevant. It's.
Like, anyway, that's true. But yeah, for Dr. Hay, the black women,
like black women, thank you. Black women, our experience in education,
uh,
from what we've seen and we've heard on this podcast seems to be far
worse than our male guests and I'm not,
and I'm being very careful not to have a wide sweeping. Right? Yep. Yep.
But it just, it really has seemed like when we interview,
except for like Michael really talked about him having a hellish experience when
he was teaching. Yep.
But our other two folks just seemed like it was just not a problem for them.
And so it makes me wonder a couple things. One like,
is that I don't wanna say they're lying cause that's a, that's a reach,
but I wanna say like, is there more to the story mm-hmm right.
I wanna ask the question of like, it wasn't, if it was just like this and why,
like I know that we've been really pushing for we as a society or educators
pushing for more black men education. Yep.
Because black men apparently are unicorns that can do magical things for
children and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. Okay.
But was it that well, like they, like, I don't know what that's about, but I,
it just really, and it really was Kevin who pointed that out, um,
in one of our interviews at the end.
And I'm just curious about they won't Kevin.
No, the reason why it comes to me is because, you know,
as we sit through these interviews,
I think about my own career and my own experiences and some of the things that,
that have not been that have been said to these women that I have never had
said to me, not once. And, and,
and it makes me ask questions, right. Have I not been pushing enough?
And then I think back to times where I've really pushed and put stuff out there,
you know, and, and advocated, you know, and, and then it makes me think, well,
you know,
how does it play into that intersectionality of it all play into
it. And, and again,
I think we know that that the black women
carry, carry the burden of the world, right?
If black women carry the burden of the world and in a classroom. And, and it's,
it's fascinating, you know, as, as my,
and I don't know how far I can go into this, but I've been recently,
I was shared as a member of the bargaining team with some data around our, um,
observation system. And, and, um, you know,
as like you guys said, researchers, you know,
put this data and it was very surprising when it came to, um,
bias related to our observation system and the results, um, that really said,
there's not a lot of bias towards black women in our,
in our school district when it comes to observation and evaluation,
which was fascinating, you know,
which was very different from experiences that I've had where black women have
been talked about, have that I know. And we've heard, interviewed,
talked about how things show up in their professionalism comments about
how they engage in the work, how they carry themselves in meetings,
how approachable are they? Right. And so, like, I think,
I feel like the only way black women are are accepted is if they're super
right. If they do everything and they never question any of it.
Or there's the assumption,
there's this assumption that black women have such
resilience and such strength that they do not need to be
cared for. And they do not need to be, be supported.
And they do not need to be loved by the, by their superiors. And so it's,
it's time backended compliment. That's.
Great. That's the really scary stuff,
because that goes back to black women can take more pain.
Mm-hmm black women can, can, uh, they can carry more of a burden,
their,
their natural caregivers so they can care beyond what they care for themselves.
Yeah. Right. All of that stuff is rooted in those ideas.
Right. And so I, and this is where I get back to, like, I don't,
I don't really see people willing to challenge some of the key
root causes of these issues. Right? Yeah. If,
if a black woman raises her voice
and she's gonna be called aggressive,
and we're not gonna put a way for her to be protected from that,
or to train people to understand that,
that she's not being intimidated to you, that this,
this is just a way of expression, right? Yes.
And other individuals who express themselves that way are never called
aggressive. Sorry about that. never, Kevin.
Has a house phone.
We got a landline. I'm I'm 45. We talked.
We a landline.
We got one, stop it.
Here we are.
Stop it.
Yeah. We, you're not wrong, Kevin. I think too. I think that,
I don't think I know that the invisible labor that black women experience from
having so many kids in their classroom. Yeah. Right. I have a good friend, um,
shout out to Laisha who she's just leaving teaching cuz she's tired of the
principal putting so many kids in her classroom. Yeah.
Who I'm quoting heavily here, like our behavior issues for everyone else. Yeah,
yeah. Right. And, and she's going to the principal and saying,
why are you doing this? And it's like, well, you can handle them.
And this is a black principal doing this to her. Yeah. Right. Well, right.
And that plays into the, the sort of internalized white supremacy that,
that we see often times in communities of color. And I can't,
I can't speak to black experiences with this except for, as a listener.
But I know that in my community, um, the Latinx community,
there are a couple of wild things that are happening. So politically, um,
brown women are, you know,
they support progressive policies and democratic party politics for whatever
those are to you support those at a rate of 91 to nine,
the men not so much not there working party.
And uh, and uh, the former president whose name escapes me right now,
um, has seen, yeah, I don't know,
has seen more gains with Latinos like
men than any other group. And so I think about what happens when,
when we become careerists as Palolo Fred 80,
we'll frame it when we become people who are willing to climb the ladder and use
our own community as the wrongs.
Mm-hmm .
So I think these are things and, um, Asia, I,
I really appreciate what you said about that invisible labor,
because it makes me think of what our forensic get solid talk about all the
time,
which is that if you're talking about professional violence
towards black and brown women in educational systems in
capitalism, that's labor exploitation,
that's putting too many kids in the classroom that's and you know,
we know that black male teachers also will get the quote unquote behavior
problems and they'll get the, but, but increasingly, you know, it's,
it's more in, in the classrooms of black women educators.
And so when we talk about, you know, these working conditions,
the racial battle fatigue, it is, would you say,
is it fair to say that it's rooted in labor exploitation?
Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Um, and I also, I also,
I'm trying to think about,
I know the conversation of black women teaching and then
the family. Right. Mm-hmm so.
That's the piece. Yeah.
That's the piece too. Right.
So I think this is a something that needs to be talked about and considered is
like, we take care of family, right. Cuz traditionally you're supposed to blah,
blah, blah, whatever.
And like what that also brings on the expectations to take care of your family
and then also the sacrifices that family make for black women to stay in
teaching. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
And so that's a part of the conversation that we need to have more is what does
it mean to be a black educator, women, woman, um,
non-binary male, whatever,
what does it mean to be an education and to have a family who is
supporting you in this space,
knowing that every single day you're coming home,
talking about like all the racism that you're experiencing. Yeah.
Like how does your family take that on? Yeah. Right. Um, I, I, you know,
I remember when I was doing my research and I was interviewing a woman who is
still in teaching and she said that she talks about, I asked her like,
how often do you talk about the racialized experiences you have in,
in school Uhhuh? And she said every day and she said,
I don't know what else we would talk about. Yeah. She said,
I don't know what else we would talk about as a family if I didn't have these
things to talk about. Yeah.
Wow.
That's.
So it's, so that's really sad.
It displaces other topics that could.
Be a hundred.
Percent at the dinner table. And, and then,
because there's all this trauma and all this pain to process and it's
really tough to process it. Um, alone. Campbell. Were you gonna say on that? No.
I, I, I was just awful again, it's, it's, it's a horrible experience where,
where it's just staying with you and that's the only place where you have,
and then it's, it just burdens your family because we come home,
you're in a bad mood, you know, you're, you're mad, you're upset, you know,
about what happened and then your family gets tired of hearing about it.
They're like, oh yeah, here I, now I have to hear about so and so, and.
Just quit then just quit. Yeah. So.
Or stick in it because of the last one is in third is almost done with high
school and we that's, that conversation is big too. Is the, that's.
A real one in it. Yep.
Just stick. And I feel like logistic in it is,
is happening more when I talk to folks than it is just quit. Yeah.
Right. Or like, or the person, the educator, I don't, they would say like,
I'm just gonna a couple more years because my, you know,
I need I'm in the district, but we are not our house. Isn't in the district.
And I need to just make sure they get through high school because I like the
district, but we don't live there. Like all these little nuances. Yeah. Right.
And it's, it's, that's the piece, right? It's this,
this it's that psychological negotiation that we're constantly having that keeps
black teachers,
probably teachers in general with black teachers specifically in that space.
Right.
What, yeah. Sorry. Were, were you finished? Mm-hmm okay. Yeah. So like, I,
I just got excited because one thing that I observed over,
over the run of the exit interview,
just again from the producers chair is noticing
how the educators and former educators that you all
interviewed were really, really what's happening outside. Um,
some weird birds out here, man. um,
it blew in from somewhere . Um,
so what I observed was that they all could speak really openly
about, um, difficult dynamics with colleagues, difficult dynamics with parents,
difficult dynamics with administration,
but they hadn't actually made the connection to how,
how it affected their family lives.
Until you ask the question and when you ask the question, they're like, well,
yeah, I mean, I kind of come, oh, mm-hmm right.
Because I think the thing that, that, that, and, you know,
we've seen the term racial battle,
fatigue pop up in some other areas,
but the piece that always gets left out is the impact on the home life.
And mm-hmm and the impact on the relationships you have at home
and where that labor, that, that you are carrying,
um, taxes. You have nothing out left when you get home.
Yeah. And imagine being two black educators in,
um, trying to do that. Right. Yeah. So then where's the space,
if you have children that you support or that you are raising what.
.
Yeah. Like, yeah. That's, I mean, for me is, is terrible.
You know, for me is the first, um,
from my Mexican side to finish college degree.
The other thing I think about cuz you were talking about, you know, um,
folks talking about, you know, should I just stick, should I just tough it out?
Like that kind of thing? Um, for me that's been a very real,
like tension is like, this job is taking a lot out of me,
but I could actually be the first person in my family to have a
relatively predictable and comfortable retirement.
And so where the stakes are higher for people of color,
I feel like they're not as high for the predominantly white teaching workforce.
Um, so we, you know,
I feel like I'm kind of tap dancing around this question because I think, well,
I, I have an idea what the answer is. Um, but I think we also, um,
I think we, I think Kevin,
you open the conversation by saying the situation is dire.
So can anything be done to address this situation?
I mean, well, I won't pull the magazine cover yet.
I mean, can anything, I think things can be done.
I think things can be done. And I, I can't wait to hear Asia's response.
I don't think.
I'm watching it right now.
I don't think people are willing to do it.
That's that's what I, uh, that's what I, you say.
What that is like, say, say what it is that, that you.
I mean, I think really it's being willing to, to ultimately cha and,
and this is everywhere, right? And every industry,
every endeavor in this country to ultimately challenge white supremacy,
right. Supremacist culture at its roots, right.
And the schoolhouse is an institution that was built.
It permeated these ideas. Right.
And no matter how many resolutions on equity or black excellence or
all of it that we can put out there, those are just words. Right.
And in the end, if we,
if we do not attack the root cause you cannot,
if you can't, uh, you can heal the symptoms,
but not affect the cause then you can't heal the symptoms. Right.
So like we are not,
you're not addressing the ultimate cause it's white supremacy in this country
and the system that exists. And I don't think, and I,
I have not seen a willingness to attack indict
change, transform any of the things that we talk about. Yeah. Right. And,
and, and I think it goes to all sorts of things. I mean,
profess evaluating professionalism, as long as that's gonna be there,
you're gonna, it's gonna be used against black educators to say,
you're not living up to what you should be. And.
Maybe the reality is that any system,
any, well, any tool or practice that is put in place that is
without black educators at the table will inherently be a weapon against black
educators. Um, I, I think,
I think it's one of those things where people think of white supremacy as
this intentional, um, everyday practice.
But the,
what I try to push back on people is that white supremacy is the default
setting. So those who do harm, do harm.
Those who do nothing also do harm because when you do nothing,
it defaults to that default setting, which is okay, well,
if it can't, if we're not gonna make it anything else,
we're just gonna leave it the way it is. It's gonna be white supremacy,
whether we try to or not, um, Asia, your thoughts.
Well, you already know my thoughts because.
I know your thoughts, the audience probably does too, but let's,
let's get 'em out here. .
So I just, I wanna say, yeah, yes, exactly what Kevin said.
And I also wanna say that what's not being acknowledged is the history,
right? Yeah. The history and it's, and of, of black education,
black, black excellence, which I'm using very lightly here. Yeah.
Desegregation segregation.
We're also not acknowledging that we're talking about retention.
I taught at CU Denver, um,
as an adjunct professor in their school education, um,
for three years and I taught a class that most K six Stu students
who were pre-service teachers had to go through to continue their program.
So I saw just about everybody and on no hands,
I can count to black male educators that came through me through my class and
then three or four black pre-service teachers
came through my classroom in, in, in the six semesters that I taught.
And I will say that one of the teachers that I taught, asked me in class,
or pre-service teachers asked me in class, you know, like,
will I experience racism when I entered teaching?
And she asked me that because when she was doing her hours for my class or not
for, excuse me, not for my class for a different class for her,
she had a racialized experience from one of her,
with one of the teachers that was there. Yeah.
So before she even gets into the classroom space, that's right. As an educator,
when she's just simply getting her hours and supporting a teacher,
she's experiencing racial battle fatigue. Yeah.
So we can't even get folks to come to finish out
programs.
Yeah. And especially now, when, when we look at the data on,
on who,
on who is entering teacher preparation programs,
those numbers are down across the board anyway.
Yes.
And I would be really interested to know how those numbers bear out racially.
My assumption is that, is it,
the overall numbers are probably down and my guess would be among black and
brown would be educators it's even like those numbers are plummeting at probably
a more precipitous rate. Do you,
I don't know if you're aware of anything out there at this.
I guess it's hard to say. Yeah. As school years are just about to get started.
So we may not know for a few weeks, but.
Um, first shout out for the word precipitous,
because look the you using vocabulary. Okay.
I'm.
Telling you million dollar word, ding D.
Ding telling you.
Um, I looked up before we started, uh, taping time magazine,
put out an article January 20, 22, um,
about the 20, 20, 20, 21 school year. And it, uh,
it says black teachers were more than twice as likely as other teachers in the
winter of 2021 to say they plan to leave their jobs at the end of the
20, 20, 20, 21 school year,
according to report released by the Rand corporation. Wow. Right. So,
and this was articles called public schools are struggling to retain black
teachers. These ex teachers explain why.
And it came out January 5th,
20, 22. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. Teacher education,
like I said, Colorado's fairly white duh. Right. But I,
I would say that in my, in my classroom, in my,
these fairly white in my classroom of teachers in, in higher ed yep.
My last semester, they struggled to get teachers there. Yeah. I, my classroom,
I have very low numbers and it was maybe
95% white women.
Yeah. Be, yeah. And, and I'm, and I can tell you from,
from my program where I was scheduled to do some teacher prep,
coursework courses, and some teacher candidate supervision,
I will be doing that because we don't have enough people. We have, um,
you know, the enrollment down. And so if we take the,
the data that you located from the Ram corporation and we
project it forward, right. Mm-hmm .
So if what these black educators were saying, they were feeling in January.
If, if that, if that followed to its logical conclusion. So what,
what we have is,
is we are burning the teacher force of the black teacher force at both ends.
We are keeping the ones that we have,
and we aren't enticing any to come into the work.
Right.
So dire, right, Kev.
I mean, , this is what they say, right?
This is what they say they want is more black educators who, who they want.
They want us to come in and they want us to stay here. Right. And,
and I don't know if I, if you asked me, what would I say,
remember Herardo we went and spoke with those incoming educators.
That's always a hard conversation.
What do you say to make black educators in particular, come into this,
come into this job. You're gonna experience microaggressions, blatant racism,
people calling you aggressive because you're advocating for the kids or
students.
People being wrong about you every single minute of the day,
people.
Dismissing you, uh, ignoring your contributions,
taking credit for your work that you do.
Listen.
.
Listen.
And, and I can't even do that anymore, cuz I'm not in the classroom.
So like , Hey, come be a classroom teacher. I'm not, but you should be.
Yeah.
Let.
Let's kinda look at it. So my friend, Brooke brown, uh,
20, 21 Washington teacher of the year, um,
she and I,
and I think she learned this from either Adrian Marie Brown or Miriam Kaba.
I don't remember what source she, she cited here,
but she talks about social justice work being science fiction, right.
That, you know, kind of,
kind of following the example of the great Octavia Butler that you
have to be able to envision a world that does not yet exist.
Mm-hmm and you have to be able to envision that world.
So probably, and so concretely that you believe it exists, right.
Is there a science fiction version of this story
and Asia before, while y'all marinate on that,
what you said about teaching the history,
I really don't want that piece to get glossed over and I don't want the
listeners to miss that piece because the,
it is no mistake that this panic over quote unquote critical race
theory, it coincides with the, with the mass,
uh, removal of black educators. Well,
if we don't wanna teach black history and we don't wanna teach the uncomfortable
parts of American history,
how can we expect the people who have come from those heritages
to be a part of the system and someone else puts something, um,
I'm gonna look for it while y'all process, but yeah.
Is there a science fiction version of this story of
black educators in America?
I just wanna say one thing before I might like having answer that first,
but I wanna say something about what you're saying, you know, um,
Derek bell, who is the father of critical.
Grace get out of my mind. I was gonna mention Derek bell too. Right?
Go ahead. Go.
The.
Bottom of the, well we listen.
Yeah. He has a, he has something called a Derrick bell reader,
which is an anthology of a lot of his work and so much of what so much of his
work focused on the desegregation of schools. Yeah.
And what it would do and how it impacted us and how much of a lie was and
how, and so I just find it, I mean, yeah, the man,
I mean 1970s, man. Bingo on right long gone, right? Yeah.
Kimberly Crenshaw obviously was a student at his carries on his work today,
but he was talking about this a long, long time ago. Right. And we,
we at America love to be like, first start clean, start new year,
new you all this bullshit. Yep.
And they're doing the same thing in education and it's not working because black
folks are like Uhuh, same year, same means same you, same whatever.
And the more we keep doing that brand new start, new initiative, clean slate,
blueprint, green print.
But the more we do that and pretend like we add something new and not
acknowledge and not just like last year,
but for all these years,
the longer we just do not acknowledge the more we're gonna go on and have these
conversations. Yeah. Period.
So Kevin Afrofuturism, what do you think?
I mean, whenever you get to that, I, I speak of space traders and I'm like,
well, what would they come? What if they come and say, say,
we want all of your black educators, we're gonna take, we,
it will fix your education. It will fix all the gaps.
All you have to do is give us all of your black educators. We don't,
we're not gonna tell you what we want for four. Right.
Because they want us because they see us as a solution to the problem. Right.
Mm-hmm but they don't really want us to be the solution to the
problem.
Well, they see,
they see all as a solution to a problem that they have not identified mm-hmm.
.
So they,
they know that there's a talking point and they know that they turned their
little social media profile pictures to a black square two years ago. Um,
and so they know they have to do the thing or appear to be doing the thing.
Like, I, I think in age, I think what you were sort of talking about with, uh,
with Dr. Bell and the, and that in,
in that prophetic voice was this idea of interest convergence. Right.
And yes, the idea that yes,
white supremacy and white people will just not act until
a benefit can be manufactured for them. And so what.
Is, yeah, what is the benefit? We know the answer to this,
but they cannot imagine there being a benefit of having a black teacher in front
of a white student.
Well, the, you know, it's interesting though,
because the data obviously shows that, um,
that teachers of color, particularly black teachers are good for all kids,
not just black kids, but, but,
but that's kind of where it's like when we're engaging families and kids,
that's rarely where the problem starts. Right. It's internal,
it's like this it's, uh, what's solid qualities, um, you know,
line from beautiful struggle, um, looking for the, looking for the cure,
but you can't see what's hurting you. Right. Cause it's inside, um, is personal.
Um, and when I think Afrofuturism, I think sun.
Um, and they don't want, and they don't wanna, and people don't wanna take the,
they don't wanna admit it. Right? The, like the dominant culture,
the people who are involved in this, they wanna say, well,
we've done some things and that's helped to fix it. Right. And, and again,
it's that experience of, well, we've done this, we've done that, but.
Incremental.
Black educators,
it feels like you haven't done anything for those of us who've been around and
been through it. Mm-hmm it feels like you've done very little.
I think it's interesting.
So what I've done is I've like set this up as a really complex question.
I'm starting to hear from both of you. It's not that complex.
What it is is you celebrate the presence of black
teachers for who they are. You support them for who they are.
You let them show up as their authentic selves.
You let them sit at tables of power and actually have decision making power and
have a voice.
You let them advance as them selves. Is it that simple?
So yes. And you teach, this is, this is the issue with that.
This is the thing, cuz you've lost our trust.
So it's gonna be years of doing that before you start seeing a return.
Yeah. In my mind, I could be dead wrong,
but in my mind it would take like, yeah, they're doing that now.
Mm-hmm let's watch 'em now. Sure, sure, sure.
It would take a long time before the tide turns, because again,
the history, right.
It's been more than two years. It's been more than two years.
yeah. And you think,
I mean just how black folks around the country responded to like vaccines for
COVID. Yeah. And how long did we like Skee happen? Yeah.
so like it's gonna take a lot of,
and a long time of, of districts showing up.
And I don't think that folks are gonna wanna do that work for that long.
They're gonna be, like we said, we were,
we are gonna change and you're not changing. So we're forgetting.
We're just not so.
Well. Yeah. And yeah. And I, and I think too, to that point, when you,
when you take the 10,000 foot view,
what we have is we have an educational system that denied access to
black people in America when it was established that if you are a black person,
you could not get educated.
They were faster to get a police force in place before they could get
schools in place for black people to attend. So what we're looking at is,
so what we're telling you is that we denied you systematically access to
education, but now we really need you.
And over 150 years has passed in that time.
We've been, they've denied us access to white education.
So black people have educated ourselves from lovely forever.
Apologizing.
Such.
An important copy.
You're good. No, yeah. We, we figured out a long time ago,
how to sneak out sheets of the Bible to learn how to read and how to read the
stars and blah, blah, blah. So they denied us. Yes. New books.
They would denied us working school buses. They've denied us, fill the blank,
but they have, they cannot deny us education because we always had it.
Yeah. However, and maybe that's the solution.
Ooh. Kevin just hit a mic drop.
yeah. Kevin's out. Right.
Kevin's out. He's like, I got nothing to add. Yeah.
Maybe that's this. Maybe that's the part of the solution. Yeah. Right.
Is thinking about, let's just take,
what if we just take this off the table of like going and working in public
school systems and think about a, a black lives matter 52, 80 school,
shout out to our next hypothe.
Hypothetically. Right?
Hypothetically, hypothetically like,
cuz this is not working we're we're we in loops in circles and going over and
over again. So if, if we took this off the table, if we said this will never,
ever happen, just forget it. You'll never get the respect you deserve.
Just forget thinking about it. How will we show up differently for ourselves?
Yeah. And we choose to teach. I don't mean lead, but I mean, yeah.
How will we choose if we choose to stay in the classroom then what?
Yeah. And that's that,
that is sort of the science fiction, like sort of thing where we,
we have not, we,
we have kept like these have been these EDU educational spaces,
you refer to have been fugitive spaces, right? These have been spaces where,
where, you know, they had to exist in secret.
They had to exist away from the gaze of white supremacy
as, so what if we just legitimize it and say,
this is just gonna be what it is and we legitimize it for ourselves and we make
that happen. Um, you there.
I think Kevin has some bad internet.
Says his internet is struggling well. So maybe, uh,
this will be a good time to kind of take it home and, you know, sort of, uh,
sort of put a, um,
put this one in the canister and get it ready to get in front of the people.
So as exit, let's see. Can you hear me? My Internet's going,
we can hear you.
All right. If you're talking, we cannot hear you.
Mm-hmm .
All right. Um, here, I'm gonna pause real quick. Oh wait. No, you're recording.
Just pause for a second.
Alrighty. Apologies for the technical difficulties. Um,
internets are racist as it turns out. So, um,
so we're here. We're gonna go ahead and take this home.
We're gonna wrap up and, um, and give a little bit of foreshadowing,
a little bit of musing on the future at this moment. Um,
Dr. A alliances, Kevin Adams,
with the work that we've done with the exit interview,
a question may emerge for a lot of people that if it's the same story over
and over again,
and if we already know what the experiences of black educators,
particularly women educators are gonna be.
And if we know that the healing process that would put
that would hypothetically bring black educators back into American classrooms,
even if there was the patience to do that,
it just doesn't seem like the answer.
Like why do we keep, why do we wanna keep telling these stories?
Why do we wanna keep being out here with these stories? Um,
and though that's not a question I have,
but that's a question that others may have is like, okay,
like that we know how this is gonna happen. Um,
why should we keep doing it?
Um, I'll go first. That's okay, Kevin.
Yeah, go ahead.
When I,
when I thought about this podcast and I thought about my reasonings behind this
podcast, the purpose of it,
and it will always be to let black educators know that there is a whole
world outside of teaching that appreciates. And you,
it's not about it's about the classroom teacher obviously,
but there's this part we ask that's the most important,
which is like with two questions,
the first one is what are you doing now that you've left the classroom?
And so that's, that's what I want black educators.
And this is who the podcast is for is for black educators. Right?
I want black educators to hear folks saying I'm doing X and Y and Z and
still impacting youth and doing these things and working for this nonprofit and
doing this consulting work.
Or working for myself.
Or working for, right.
I want folks to hear that black teachers to hear that and say like,
you know what? I knew that person and I knew they left,
but I wonder what happened and she's not dead.
She didn't disappear in the ether. Yeah. He didn't whatever they continue on.
We continue on to support youth in all types of ways,
support our communities in all types of ways. And that's,
that's why I am here to make sure that black educators who are
in our audience understand that there is,
if you have chosen that psychological negotiation,
if you and your family have had that conversation.
And it's something that you're considering know that there are people out here
doing it and they are thriving, they are thriving. So that's,
that's why I continue to make sure that we have folks on this show
that tell their story because we are thriving out here,
Kevin. Yeah.
I, I mean, I think, I think that's so important, right? And I think back,
you know, we think about the history and like, uh,
what you brought up Asia that black people have always found a way to get our
education. Right. And, and, and I think what it comes back to is they,
they're always gonna try to prove that we are inept and, and,
and somehow less than right. And,
and education in school is a very easy way to do that.
Especially when the school is, uh, dominated by white culture.
Mm-hmm . And so when, when I,
when I start to think about is, you know,
what are those, what,
what is the way that we can plan for the future that takes us out of the
system, right? That removes, uh, you know,
black people from this system,
because we know that the system wasn't intended for us. Right.
Mm-hmm . And so I think that's the important thing.
What are those other ways that we can still get to our people, educate,
inspire children, let them know where they come from.
And I think that's the most inspiring thing that I get from the exit interview
that I, and I, and I thank you,
Asia for always raising that up and going back to that point is that there are
other options. And then I think about the history and in particular,
that being a teacher was one of the few opportunities that black women had,
right? Mm-hmm in,
when we had segregated schools and black women lost that opportunity, right.
And black women were dynamic at it.
And we all know people who grew up with black educators, uh,
and in segregated schools, right. Either, um,
because of redlining or because legally they were segregated. Right.
And we know that those women were incredible.
And when they went and started to teach in white schools, those same teachers,
those same black women were often criticized for their approaches.
And I've seen it happen. Right. I've seen it happen in my career where they,
where older, black women in particular criticized for their approaches.
So I think it's important for us to see that we've moved past those times and
that black women in particular can,
can accomplish amazing things beyond the system
that has been sanctioned and established by the dominant white
supremacist culture. Mm-hmm.
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it folks may come to this podcast when they see the exit interview
pop up on their feed. And when we typically think of an exit interview,
when most people think of an exit interview, an exit interview, um,
is framed to benefit the employer. Right. Well yep. If you'll do,
if you'll do an exit interview with us and then we can just learn from it and
maybe make the institution better and make this, make this whole thing better.
But what we're doing here with two do productions,
exit interview is to say, here's how I exited.
This is just one way you can do it. Mm-hmm .
And if you have those doubts,
if you have those hesitations,
if this is taking more out of you than what it's giving you,
you don't have to stay.
Mm-hmm yeah. Mm-hmm yeah.
Well, y'all, that's.
It, that's important. I think it's an important lesson. Right. And, and,
and you could still impact change and possibly at a greater
level.
I was just gonna say, when we look at what some of these folks are doing it,
like, you know, .
Like real inspiring work,
which is why I'm so excited for our next guest that is coming on the
exit interview.
Yeah. Who's that next guest.
So our next guest is Ranta Lockett. Ranta Lockett is, uh,
part of the black lives matter 52, 80 crew.
She is the director of their freedom school.
And she's talking to us about her experience in education as an
educator. And now with, along with so many dope teachers,
dope folks in the community, um,
is trying to open up a freedom school here in Denver. And I'm sure she'll,
I don't know if she will or now,
but I'm sure she'll talk about the experience of what that's been like and the
why and what they've doing and what they've been doing so far. I know they had,
uh, summer camp this summer that was wait, listed. So many kids went to it.
So we'll definitely talk to her, um,
as she's talking about and she's living in that Afrofuturism, right? Yeah.
And she's living in that space where black folks are here for black folks with
black folks. Yeah. So we're excited for that. That.
Be great for sure. And I feel like, um,
I feel like brand to locket will have a couple of exit interviews to give.
I feel like there's a couple of sets of experiences that it exist
there in her world. So well, Dr. Asia alliances, Kevin Adams,
thank you so much for just doing this deep reflection,
this fearless reflection, this, um,
this just completely real and authentic reflection with me this
evening. Um, folks, if you like,
what you're getting here with the exit interview,
follow us at Tudo teachers on all social media platforms. You can also,
if you, you know, I don't know,
want to support grassroots people of color created
media, you can go to patreon.com/two Oak teachers.
We've got some big things coming in the next few weeks and months.
Y'all you wanna get in on it? You wanna be able to support it.
And you know what I'm gonna say this again. We, we have stickers.
We don't have t-shirts, we don't have swag.
We don't have a million things that we can give you.
But the important thing is whether you're actually supporting, um, this work,
because there isn't really any other platform like this one mm-hmm
um, so come here and support it.
You can get advanced episodes of the exit interview of, uh,
habitually disruptive with me hit Munos. And of course the flagship podcast,
Tudo teachers, and a mic, um, in the coming weeks,
Kevin and I will also talk about how our relationship has changed on the podcast
and how the podcast may be a little bit different in, um,
the months and years to come. So thank you all for being here. Um,
we are looking forward to engaging with you for at least another school year.