Hey. What's really going on? It's Boots Riley.
I'm the writer and director of Sorry to
Bother You. You are now listening to
two dope teachers and a microphone.
Keep it locked right here. No texting.
Good afternoon, two Dope Nation. How y'all doing?
Doing good. So, I'm Gerard Munoz. My boy,
Kevin Adams. And we are two Dope Teachers
and a Mic.
We have this incredible opportunity right now. Do
you wanna talk about our guests that we
have up here? We we, again, are at
the, conference
on racial and social justice, the NEA conference,
and we have the pleasure
of having,
I think, our number one greatest guest that
we've ever had on the podcast.
This is a man
who has influenced me through his lyrics.
I influenced both of us. Yep. We quote
his lines routinely on this podcast. That's right.
That's right.
He
is a auteur.
He is a force,
and, we just wanna welcome
Boots Riley to the pilot podcast. Thanks for
having me. Thanks for being with us. Thank
you. So we just had this incredible experience.
I think a lot of folks are familiar
with the music that you make with the
coup and with,
and and through that sort of vein of
hip hop. I think a lot of people
in the room just learned about your social
justice roots. Can you talk a little bit
about what brought you into the forefront of
this justice
work and engaging and amplifying the work that
are that's happening in communities? Well, what brought
me into the work, not necessarily in the
forefront,
but I,
I
I started,
helping,
farm workers in Central California Valley.
Started, helping them organize. So they had a
summer project
where I
went and helped run off flyers, and,
they were creating something called
the Antiracist Farm Workers Union, which was off
which which was some folks that split off
from the,
from from the United Farm Workers because because
at the time, United Farm Workers
were helping
immigration to
deport people. Yes. Yes. Right. And so these
were more radical folks that were like, we're
gonna create the anti racist farm workers union.
And,
I went and they, you know, and and
it was like just it it was boot
camp basically because they'd be going to work
in the fields, you know, leaving at three
in the morning. They'd be like, okay. It's
your job to,
to to make the caravan for the day,
to organize it. Here's the phone list of
phone numbers. Here's the things. Get get the
signs made. Yeah. Figure out what the router
and you're like, I'm only 15. You know?
I'm just you know? Yeah. And you're just
getting it right in there with people. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right in there, like, just
seeing what they're doing. And so through that,
I got a good school about
how power actually works. Yeah. No doubt. That's
incredible. So 15 years old, you're out there
Yeah. Doing the work and and supporting these
movements that that have happened.
What is it about
educational justice in schools that resonates with you?
You said some incredible words up there. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think Kevin and I, we're sitting
there. We just keep looking at each other
like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's
it. So what is it that got you
interested
in this,
in this movement around school?
Well, you know, well, one, having gone through
school and having
it being a major part of what what
formed me and knowing that that's for most
humans,
a major part of that.
You know,
also understanding that,
teachers teach not only in the classroom,
but then but but what what the students
go through, what they see in their life,
that teaches them Yeah. A lot. And so
I think it's really important,
that people see teachers fighting for the things
that they need. And also to understand that,
a lot of the times teachers understand their
power and the power they have. So a
lot that that that understanding that the teachers
aren't only fighting
for their well-being,
and and not only is their well-being attached
to, you know,
how well,
education,
is going. Mhmm. But it's also that they're
fighting for other things that have to do
with the students Right. And have to do
with the larger community.
So,
you know, a a lot of people don't
understand that about those fights. That's right. That
that
that teachers
became teachers
often because it would because they wanted to
see Yeah. You know, they want to see
people learn. They want to see education, and
then they get in there, they under they
learn that they're gonna have to be the
ones to reshape education, you know, through and
and the, you know, the way they have
power in that is not just through,
electing people who are going to appoint the
right people.
It's through, you know, being able to shut
it down, being able to use that threat
Yeah. Of withholding labor to say, this is
what we want. These are our demands.
You know? Yeah. And we'll shut it all
down. Yeah. Yeah. It down. Yeah. And I,
you know, I was struck by your words
when we, you were speaking,
at the keynote,
because I I think about our own experience
in Denver and our teacher strike.
And, you know, how many teachers were unwilling
to really carry it and push it further
because the they made the first offer, and
we accepted right off the bat. You know?
And I and we accepted
in the middle of the night. Like, if
teachers woke up, they're like, do I go
back to work today? Do I stay? Yeah.
Are we still on the line, Pickety, and
I think it's really important. And I think
another thing that came up for us I
think with things like that, because I don't
know about the Yeah. Denver strike. But in
other ones that I've seen, sometimes
the,
the the local leadership,
doesn't have a gauge of how how much
the teachers are actually willing to fight. Yeah.
And they and they accept things Yep. Based
on,
you know, this this misconception
Yep. That that people you know, if you
got people out there fighting, often,
they they wanna win the thing that they
came for. Yep. Yep. Right? Yep. And so
we've we've seen that. It doesn't just happen
with teachers. It happens in a lot of
struggles. Yeah. And, you know, people of the
leadership being more being less radical than than
the the than the base. Yep. Yep. And,
and I think some of that has to
do with having, you know, having there be
better channels of communication,
better ways to gauge where folks are. Yeah.
And, also,
you know,
one thing that organizers
and, quote, unquote, leaders are supposed to do
is is help push people
towards the direction. Yeah. Yeah. Help influence them.
Yeah. No doubt. To make the choices that
that that that are that are good. You
know? I mean, you think about, you know,
even when we talk about things that are
non labor struggles like, you know,
civil rights movement,
certain aspects of it. Mhmm. All those orations
we hear
are organizers
trying to get people to move to the
left. Yep. Yep. You know? Yeah. They're not
just saying Yeah. You know? That's the whole
point. If you're, you know and And and
so I think sometimes it's not
where
where the teachers are. Yep. Yep. Yep. It's
it's it's how how,
sometimes some of us as organizers have been
taught,
in this sort of to to to try
to be cert you have to be responsible
Yep. Yep. To folks. But I think there
has to be a way to
communicate and also to agitate, to get people
to understand Yeah. No doubt. When the fight
needs to happen Yeah. No. Or longer. And
and you referenced the the strike in LA
and and the shutdown of the entire city
around,
around a school strike.
Something that you said just keeps on ringing
in my mind, and and this is the
idea of disrupting and dismantling capitalist systems. Right?
This idea that, you know, Kevin mentioned We've
had this going back. Yeah. Our first our
first offer we get, we're like, okay. Cool.
We'll get it. Because in a way, like,
we kinda wanna make a statement, but we're
not necessarily willing to push it to its
logical conclusion.
The
the end of capitalism
in schools, what what would that bring
if we are able to put aside
the the notion that our schools need to
be feeding this,
educational industrial complex? Yeah. How do like, what
would that look like if we're able to
do that? You you'd have education that's closer
to the truth. Right? Because so much of
what we're taught
is, you know,
in a nonthreatening way to the establishment. So
Yeah. In service of the establishment. Even even
when you like Yeah. If you just were
to look at history and the things that
are left out That's right. Of history and
how they're taught. Yep. And and and even
in in, you know, through textbooks that aren't
necessarily considered,
conservative or whatever. Right. You know, they're leaving
out the the they're leaving out the impetus
of it, which is community involvement. And so
because even after capitalism, there's going to that
the only way to keep that Yep. Is
for peep for the community to be engaged
and for people to be in struggle. No
doubt. So you'll have a a, you know,
something that that is closer
to truth. And then you'll also have, you
know, we we talk about this idea when
we say education is the key. That should
be like education is the key to feeling
enlightened about the world and all the what
they mean is education is key for you
to get a job that you can pay
for work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And and and actually, you know,
it doesn't. You know what I'm saying? That's
right.
My office doesn't. So
but what about an education system that that
taught us just more about the the the
world, you know, things that weren't based on
A system that is community. Right? Only like,
okay. You're gonna be able to get a
job Yeah. Does this and does that. So
these are the the only things you need
to know. Yeah. And and and maybe it
would be an education system that kept going
Yeah. Even as you got a job Yep.
Yep. Yep. That that went throughout your whole
life. A culture of learners. Yeah. Yeah. So
when,
what do you see as the connection between
art and activism?
Well, I think,
art is is communication. That's, you know, it's
it's
someone putting forward their putting forward an idea.
Mhmm. No matter what that idea is,
you know, it's someone putting forward that idea.
And, and so
human beings,
it's it's the duty of all human beings
to change the world for the better.
And so, I I think that that,
you know, if we're thinking about that, even
if you're not trying to make art that
says, this is exactly how I think the
world should change. If you're come if if
that's who you are as a person, it
will come out in your art even if
you're just making a love story. Yeah. You
know? Yeah. Or
even if you're just telling the tale of
this thing that happened on one day. Yeah.
That'll come out in your in your world
view. And so I I think, you know,
if we're trying to get trying to get
people to,
take power
in their daily lives, get involved in in
things, I think
it's important to speak the language that people
are speaking. Yeah. Absolutely. Right? So and and
that language that we're consuming,
that we're speaking,
all a lot of that falls under art,
falls under music, falls under film, falls under
television.
All of these things are and paintings, whatever.
We gotta speak all the languages that that
that that, people are being spoken to in.
Yeah. That that I mean, that's absolutely powerful.
Right? Because when we start seeing the role
that the creative arts has done, and we
over here, we have this incredible booth of
of, of silk screened, like, protest posters, and
and we start looking at the role that
that the arts have done to get people
to imagine liberation and imagine what freedom looks
like and feels like and tastes like and
sounds like.
I I think that's why I think that's
why it's so easy to cut the arts
in schools. Right? Because that's the kind of
thing that's gonna get kids thinking beyond, you
know, the material gains that an education will
get you.
And and here's the thing. And and the
you know, which reminds me, there's a certain
trend to try to get art funded where
they're like,
let's teach music because it teaches kids math.
Let's get rap because it teaches literacy. I
mean, no. Let's teach music because music allows
people to express themselves. That's right. That's right.
Same way teaching them to write an essay
does. That's right. Yeah. Let's teach, you know,
painting because we need
people to express themselves and and it is
a value in and of itself. Like, hip
hop shouldn't be taught because it teaches math.
Hip hop should be taught because it is
the most influential
literary
movement Right. In the his in the last
couple hundred years. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And and for people to be
encouraged to to create through that that medium
is
is literacy
in and of itself. Yeah. You you've got
me thinking about all the conversations I had
with my parents about, why are you gonna
major in that? Why do you wanna study
that? That's right. And, like, now now you've
got me thinking about well, because it's it's
a way to be me. Right? And it's
a way to try to put something positive
in the world and and do and just
do that work, which is And here's the
thing, a lot of that okay. A lot
of that is is,
you know, our family wants us to survive.
Like, our family knows that it's crabs in
a barrel. Yep. That's right. Right. To be
the crab that gets out. Yep. And but
but Yep. If we're as a community,
we can't and and so therefore, they're like,
get this Get yours. This particular thing that
will get you that job. Yeah. On the
on on
and as a community though, we can't think
that way because we know that only lets
a couple people out. Yep. And then we
also know that you can get that thing
and you're most people don't have a job
in the in the,
degree that they got it that Yep. Yep.
Yep. Yep. Yep. They got a degree. You
got a degree and you got a job
that you needed. And and so, you know,
the the thing is is that we have
to look at education
in a different way. You know, we've shaped
it to try to meet industry. Yeah. And
those folks that run the industry, they don't
you know, like,
you know, we've got an industry of people
learning coding, for instance. And that's they don't
know anything else but how to do these
things. And therefore, they only know how to
I mean, you know, I don't know. Like,
they they're spending so much time doing this
stuff that they don't know about much else.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so, you know, comparing
how quickly things have changed. So even some
of the folks that end up, like, let's
take some of those folks that learn coding
and stuff, they end up being hackers for
a second like anonymous. Yeah. And then but
then it's so easy if you just look
at the news to turn them into FBI.
That's right. That's right. Because they haven't learned.
That's right. They haven't
they're not connected to anything else. And so
we've had we have this
education
system that's that's
supposedly
helping a couple people be the crabs, get
out of the barrel. Yeah. But for everybody,
it's not helping them to to to learn
Right. Success versus liberation. Right? Liberation is big
picture. Liberation is community oriented. Is turning is
is is
is turn is That's right. Do it. Is
turning the buckets over so that all the
crabs That's right. Get out. That's right. You
get lots of snaps up there. I don't
know if you're gonna say that. Lots of
snaps coming from the audience. As teachers, like,
what I'm always thinking about is is what
can I do to make sure my students
have the best experience and be and become
who they wanna be? So and we and
we are always delving into our own educational
experiences. But when you think about your own
educational experience, are there things that teachers did
that significantly
impacted you positively or negatively? For better or
for worse. Because we know not every teacher
out there is impacting students positively.
Oh, I mean, definitely.
And a lot of the the teachers that
impacted like,
you know,
I I had this teacher, miss Satterfield. She
died later of of cancer. Yes.
And she was at Oakland High.
And she, you know, my writing, she really
encouraged me and she was talking to me
all the time about how beautiful it was
and how great it was. Nice. I remember
I came back, like, I I hadn't been
back to school since I graduated. And I
came back, like, eight years later, and I
saw her and and, I was like, hey.
It's me, Raymond. And she's like, who?
She she
she was like,
you know, and then and she didn't remember
me. Right. And it and it was because
she that's what she did for all her
students. That was just my Yeah. Yeah. You
know? That that's what she did for all
her students. You really encouraged me. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. Make good one. You you feel special.
Yeah.
Specialist. Right? And they're
like, oh. What was your name again?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I
and I think were you a good student?
I mean In your own definition of it?
I don't know what that I mean, early
on, I was, you know, good, and then
I figured out that I could just pass
the tests Yeah. And not do the homework.
Yeah. Yeah. And, so that's what I did.
So I was like, if I could get
a a on the test and not do
the homework, I'll get a c.
And,
and a c is passing.
You know? And so I did that. But
then you get to the age where you
start cutting and not showing up for the
test. Uh-huh. Yep. So then that Yeah. Yeah.
That ends up being so I don't know
if I was a a good student. But
what got me
to be a better student was I I
started getting involved in organizing. And so then
then then I was reading all of these
things because I was interested in them Yeah.
And because they had to do with with
the struggle. And I would show up to
class just to argue with the teacher.
Yes. Right? Yes. And I feel like that
was your whole education, Kev.
A little bit. A little bit. I did
a little bit of that. A little bit
of that. Yeah. And so and so it
it made
me really engaged. I mean, an example of
that is,
there was a a a South African youth
group called the Young Comrades.
And,
they were part of the Soweto Uprising. They
came out of that and part of the
whole boycott
of the the the school system that happened
for many years.
But
I saw an interview that happened with them
in, like, 1982
while nobody was going to school, and these
are 13 year olds. Yep. Yep. And they
were talking about
Reagan and the the the the the the
trade policies that were happening
between The US and Europe and the Soviet
Union Yep. And how that had to and
and they were talk they they were they
had literature references and the reason why is
because they were engaged in struggles. So all
of these ideas,
all of these things had a meaning that
they could place within their head and their
education Yep.
Became,
you know, more so than they they would
have gotten. Now now, the best of both
worlds is to be in school and be
involved in struggle. Yep. But in this case,
the point is is that a lot of
students tune out because,
you know, they're they're being they they even
even if it's unconsciously,
understand they're just being taught the things that
they need to get by to get a
job as opposed to the things that they
need to change the world around them. Yeah.
And many of them will, you know, like,
it's it's not, you know, it it you
know, they they memorize all sorts of other
things that they're interested in. That's right. They
know all these That is right. And it's
because they see a connection to their life.
But if we have something
that is actually trying to change the world
and I've seen teachers do this. There was
a teacher named Sarah Fuchs at Castlemont High
School in the nineties, and she was getting
her kids involved in,
she was getting her kids in in involved
in,
the Mumea,
Ray Mumea campaign. Yeah. And,
you know, and and and all those students
that got involved started getting really involved in
school and really wanting to talk about these
things and and and it made
them see themselves in the world,
you know, and which which which gave them
the impetus for for for for other stuff.
Now because of all that,
the school,
tried to fire her. Of course. Of course.
Of course. And the students shut the school
down. There you go. That's right. And got
her rehired.
Yeah. Right? And and and because they, you
know, but they but but but my point
is, I think,
you know, that that being involved
in changing the world around you makes you
understand how important you are. Yeah. Yeah. I
think that's such a powerful statement. You made
the statement in your keynote that, you know,
it's one thing to teach history, but but
it's another thing to apply it. Right? So
I so how do you know, I I've
never understood this myself when I see teachers
teaching about protest movements, but not sort of
saying Having students experience the protest. There are
things right now that people are protesting. There
are things right now affecting your communities
and and bringing it to life, that application.
What are you going to do with this?
I think that's such an important, like, driving
question for all of us that you pose
to us. It's like, how are you applying
this? And if you can't apply it, why
are you teaching it? Yeah. You know? That's
definitely what I feel. You know? And I
think what came up in our Denver teacher
strike is, you know, why aren't teachers willing
to walk out for issues like Black Lives
Matter? No. That's right. That's our Yep. Immigrant
children, you know, to make sure. And so
I think this bigger picture of application of
having the kids
learn
by
watching
us engage in activism or them engaging in
activism themselves is really critical. Yeah. And and
maybe teachers are willing. Yep. I don't know
if it's been put up for for,
a a vote. And also also,
there's a idea of what, you know, in
in some of these talks of what the
community will accept. Yep. Yep. Yep. And and
those things. So that comes that's where the
organizers come in. It's showing,
you know, where the world is at in
relationship
to where teachers are at or where anyone
is at. And and and how those things
can can come to pass.
And and because it it might not maybe
it's not something,
as much of a national policy. Maybe there's
something like I said, like a a
a
a young person of color gets murdered by
the police. Yep. Right. Those teachers showing that
they are
that that they
are connected with the community,
that does a lot. That changes also their
relationship with the students Absolutely. As well. Yep.
And and and so but
so I think that that that and and
then on the other hand,
those students,
especially if they're in high school,
in a few years,
they're
they're thought of as
non students and the community. Yep. That's right.
Yep. And that changed That's right. Or their
teachers. Yep. Yep. Yep. Right? Yep.
And and and so what we're doing right
now is shaping
not only
what's happening in the profession of teaching Mhmm.
What you do but but in the the
broader community.
Yeah. Yeah. And and when you talk about
capitalism
and and really trying to, you know, destroy
it or alter it or,
you know,
do something to it. Right? Right? Well, I
believe that we should have a
we should have a world in which the
people democratically control the wealth that we create
with our labor. Absolutely.
So,
you know, and what so so and that's
where actual power is is is where the
wealth is created. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So,
so so I think
showing that
gives people
more of an idea like how you know,
we teach all these tidbits of history.
And so beyond the applying it,
a lot of it is confusing to a
lot of people. I know this happened on
this date. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. On
that date.
And the why is always told in this
little small detail that doesn't have Right. Yeah.
Very quick. You know, it's like so and
so got assassinated,
so this happened. But no
often it's not, there's not a general
idea of how society is working Yep. To
do this. And and and often also what
comes up in school is an idea of
what's going on around us that's confusing. Right.
So,
for example,
if you're teaching in communities of color, often,
you know, often one of the subjects is,
violence and and and gun violence. People killing
each other. And a lot of times, we'll
because we don't have an analysis of class
that teaches us how capitalism works Yep. We
look for answers. And so we're like, oh,
people
are violent because
of, you know, their family. Yep. Yep. Or
they're violent because they're not they don't they're
not being taught the right things. They don't
they haven't been taught how to get a
job. And all of these things community. Make
sense if you don't look. And and and
they don't make sense because we try to
fit some in that way. Yep. But the
truth is is this, and this is what
we need to be teaching is that capitalism
must have a certain amount of unemployed people
in order to exist. Yep. Yep. Yep. Right?
And a certain amount of people who are
just ridiculously rich. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. But
but
if you have no if you have zero
unemployment,
then
you have then then people that have a
job can demand whatever
wage they want. And they don't even need
a union. They can be like, you can't
fire me. Give me 30 an hour. Give
me 50 an hour. Yep. Yep. Right?
So you see,
publications like Wall Street Journal and Financial Times
publicly worrying when the unemployment rate goes low.
Not It's too low. Not not that they
think it'll ever be at zero, but as
it goes low,
in real time, wages come up. Yep. Yep.
And in real time, stocks go down and
and and because profits are going down. And
so they worry that when as the unemployment
rate goes low. So what this means is
if you have a system in which there
must be a certain amount of unemployed people,
that means you have a system in which
there must be a certain amount of unemployed
people that need to eat. Yep. Yep. Right?
And and then
they that means they have to get involved
in illegal business. Yep. Because they're not gonna
let themselves starve. And if you have illegal
business, you have the same violence that legal
business has. That's right. All legal all business,
legal and illegal uses violence. Yep. You we're
in this convention center. The hotel next door
can't decide to build a golf course through
because whoever owns the convention center is gonna
be like, no. We have the deed. That
deed doesn't mean shit unless there's people with
guns call police Right. That are gonna enforce
it.
There you go. Always. And those and and
and and and and it's always that. It's
all you know,
back in the twenties when liquor was illegal,
if you rob the liquor dude, the police
come the the the gangsters come after you.
Yep. Yep. Yep. Right. Now it's legal. You
rob the liquor dude, the police come after
you. Yeah. Twenty years ago in Oakland, you
rob the we do, you probably get away
with it. But maybe a few gangsters might
come after you. Yeah.
Right now, it's legal. You rob the we
do, the police come after you. Here's the
thing, we're teaching and and and so here
here here's the thing. So
all these folks are all they're doing is
regulating
they're regulating their business. You can't if you're
a dope dealer, you can't go to court
and say, your honor, we're supposed to get
a whole key of cocaine. Clearly, this is
half baker's soda. I demand roasted two strikes.
That's right. That's right. There's there's no zoning
commission and say Yep. Where you say this
block was only zone for two sponsored violence.
Two,
cocaine vendors. Yeah. We need a permit for
this third one. Right? You can't do that.
No. So
so,
so illegal business practitioners
regulate themselves and so therefore, that's where violence
comes from. And out of that, yes, a
culture comes because out of whatever business is
going on, a culture comes. Out of teaching,
there's a culture that comes. Yeah. If you
have a fishing village,
you know, there there's a culture that comes.
If you want that fishing village to sing
agricultural songs, you're gonna have to move them
to where there is dirt to play. Right.
Right. Right. Right. You start singing away from
the fish. Cultural songs, they might like it.
They might like the tune, but they're not
gonna start the if they start singing, they're
gonna change it to being about fishing. So
if we wanna change
that,
we gotta teach not only that that that
what this means is that if you wanna
get rid of that violence Yep. You gotta
have a whole different economic system. That's right.
And now and and so that also has
to do with how we teach our students
about what's happening with violence.
And and that it's not just a mindset.
Yeah. Yeah. There's some of that that has
to do with culture and stuff like that.
But at the at the basis of it
is if you wanna stop violence, we gotta
change the whole system.
And showing them that, hey. This struggle, we're
about to go on strike, and it's about
that. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Having that big deal.
I think I think that's, really important.
This bigger idea of understanding the culture that
we're trying to create. And I feel like
at times,
in Denver public schools, we're asked to create,
you know, to just replicate the culture of
oppression that exists. Right. And and we are,
you know,
try to, people try to convince us that
somehow these reforms
are going to lead to the liberation. It
will they're just really replicating. It's empowerment. Right?
Like, that's what we call empowerment in our
district is that we want the kids to
be to grow up and fully participate in
this system and reap all of its all
of its, like, material benefits without actually looking
what the system is actually serving and what
and what the overall purpose of the system
is. And and be let me be clear.
We need some we need reforms,
but but we need to to
that we gain through movements. Yes. Right? And
teaching
and using those to teach that
struggle is what gets these things changed, but
also with the with the a radical vision
of where we wanna go Right. Yep. Yep.
After that. And and that these are That
clear view. Forms on the way to this
larger movement, this larger societal change. Yeah. Yeah.
And when you were talking,
in your keynote, you mentioned
and it it changed my perspective because you
mentioned 51%
of millennials
supporting socialism,
43%
of all people supporting socialism. Right. And the
way I think it's presented in the media
is, like, this is so unrealistic.
Look. Only 43%
of the people are there, or only 51%
of the people are there. But I think
what what you help me see is this
bigger picture is it's a a long term
movement. Yeah. And that if we're at 4351%
right now, where are we gonna be? And
think about the percentage on the other side
of that that wouldn't say that Yep. Out
right. Yep. Wouldn't it would say that to
a poster? Right? Agree with a lot of
the the the the things that are being
said. So a lot of that is is,
you know,
of of course, there are people that that
and they would go along with a lot
of those people taking that poll didn't understand
there was another 51%.
Yep. Yep. Yep. You know? So there are
people that are influenced by where they think
the rest of the world is. Yep. Yep.
Yep. Yep. Yeah. That's right.
That's right. Yeah. No. It's incredible,
to just, like I don't know. You you
have this, like, moment where you actually start
thinking about what's possible and and what kind
of society we wanna build. And, and just
so those words are so important. Like, what
is the big picture of what we want
to,
accomplish with with young people in our in
our schools?
So I think I think we have a
little just a couple minute more or so
with you. We thank you so much.
But I I I think we would both
be disappointed. What's your thoughts about the state
of hip hop today?
Had to get into that question. What what
are your thoughts? Well, here's the thing is
that, you know,
when we were when when when when we
were first coming out, there was a lot
of people that liked hip hop from ten
years ago that was like, oh, look at
the state of hip hop today. Yeah. Yeah.
You know? Right. It's always gonna be
there there's gonna be, you know, different movements
that that that we
artistically that we don't understand, that we don't,
you know and while at the I can
say that I'm not into some of the
new styles that are coming out. And I
can say, like, oh, we would have thought
that was weak. Like, it's not that it's
new. It's like that was around, and we
just thought it was weak.
However, I understand that it's really there's no
objective truth in that. Right? Yeah. There's it's
just Yep. About
people
are making art on the wavelength that connects
to people where where they're at right now.
And and, you know, I'm
who am I to say
about whether it's objectively good or not. I
mean, I think some of the thing, you
know, like
the the I I've definitely been known as
a lyricist, but I think that so there's
something to be said about stuff that's called
lyricism
that
is really not try not about connecting to
people. That's more like Mhmm. You know, mentally
masturbating and and really and and you can't
masturbating. You can't really,
you know, you can't really judge it because
they're just using a whole bunch of words.
Yep. Yep. You know, look at these words
I looked up in the dictionary and, you
know, and and, you know, oh, I'm I
did this many similes, that many metaphors,
So therefore, it's good. And you can't really
judge it by that. The way you judge
artists Right. How does it connect to people?
Yep. What does it make people feel? Yeah.
What does it make people think? And because
I didn't kinda grow up with that stuff,
I can't say you know, I'll say this.
One time I was,
when when jungle was was Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Was was just coming. I was
like, I know I I thought about, like,
what is this? This is like some, you
know, white people dancing type shit. And and
then
then I then I went to London and
to this club called The Fridge and went
in the basement.
And everybody was, like, just grinding on each
other.
And the mute and then and the music
was playing loud. I looked around. I was
like, oh. This is it. I get it.
I get it. I get it. Right? Because
you you can't listen to it out of
context. You have to be part of that
world that needs it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. No
doubt. And so, you know, I'll say I'll
say that. And I'll say as far as
the content of where hip hop
is, that's just us. That's our fault. Like,
if there is no movement Yeah. Like, I
came out of a movement that created me
wanting to put my ideas into this art.
If we don't have a movement that's moving
people back in their houses while they're being
evicted and those, you know, then then we
don't have the 12 year old kids seeing
that movement and then rapping about it. Yep.
Yeah. Right?
So people aren't gonna rap about these ideas
that they don't
that they don't see around them. So we
have to make these movements more radical and
more visible
and and and and actually
involved in campaigns that affect people's lives, and
that will change the music.
And folks, that was our interview with the
imminent Boots Riley, creative artist and revolutionary.
You may know him as the creator of
Sorry to Bother You,
or of the eminent incredible revolutionary hip hop
group,
The Coup.
For Boots Riley, for Kevin Adams, I am
Hernardo Munoz wishing you today and always in
this hot summer to stay dope.