You and I are both struggling. That out.
We're both struggling with that. And I feel
like I'm never down. Like, I'm not like
I don't have a lot of downtime. I
feel like I'm always fighting right now. It's
like You are, man. You're hitting up that
bargaining teamwork, man. As I don't know. I
don't know. That's they're so That's that's what
they call the lord's work, bro. Because it's
not easy.
Yeah. And I'm out here. I don't even
man Working on that graduate degree. Working on
And being on Colorado teacher of the year.
Man. And and and doing all the other
stuff.
I know. People, like, ask me how I
do all of it, and I it's just
like a blur. I'm like, do all the
what? Like, it's just my life right now.
Like Like, I don't know. I just remember
our our dude, doctor William Anderson. I saw
his office at DU, bruh. Yeah. I was
like, man. You got it styled out. It's
well, because you know the university built a
whole building for the college of education.
I did not know this. Yeah. I I
did not know this either. And then I
went, and,
I was like, dang. Everybody's here.
And I saw I saw
William,
up there in his office. It was pretty
wild.
Yeah. I'm try so I have this, so
you've seen me come in the building at
times. Right? I'm, like, carrying everything. I I'm,
like, training for my next I'm gonna be
helping people go up Everest. That's my next
career because I already A Sherpa.
Yeah. And so well, I'm not from that
culture, but I'll be able to carry things.
But I'll I'll you'll you'll you'll you'll be
learning.
Sherpa and trade. So but it's funny because
I'm they're like, oh, you look like you're
moving. I'm like, I have my whole life
on my back right here. Like, this backpack
is my job. This
messenger bag is is grad school.
This big cooler is my food because I
need to eat, and then I've got workout
clothes, like, just in case. I like that.
So it's just a trip.
Yo. We are out here.
Welcome
to another episode,
of two doped teachers and a Mike. My
name is Eduardo Munoz.
And I am Kevin Adams.
And we are here
on,
on a on a sunny October day, wouldn't
you say? Yes. Yes. It it's it's getting
colder.
Yeah. Definitely getting colder, but sunny today. Sunny
right now. Think there's some weather on the
way.
Oh, really?
I believe so tomorrow. There's supposed Wait. What
kind of weather? I think it's supposed to
be some rain and possible you know, when
they say that rain snow mix. Oh, bruh.
No. Oh, that's That's what I heard. That's
what I heard. My my my weather app,
which you can't see because of my background,
is telling
me that there's rain possibly
with snow. That's that's wild.
How you been?
You know,
I feel like again, that's a loaded question
these days, but I'm
I'm I'm above ground. I am kicking,
you know, and I'm doing all the things
that I have to do,
with with constant
questioning of if I'm doing it well
or right.
I mean, define well and define right. I
mean, you know, right now, you and I
had an incident. Not not that makes it
sound like we were fighting. Woah.
Woah. Woah. That was instant. You know, I
often have incidents with people who don't know
that they had incidents with me.
So,
you know, we had a we had a
thing happen,
a couple weeks ago where we were gonna
work together and do a little bit of
planning, and then you weren't able to do
it because you got called in to do
coverage. And I think that's, like, one of
the things that's really hard about being a
teacher right now, like, across the system, not
just in our school. There are literally just
not enough humans in education right now.
Like, all of us is doing our job
plus one or two other jobs on a
daily basis. And I think that
when it comes to am I doing this
well enough, there's also the question of is
the capacity there for me to actually,
you know, do what I need to do,
to the best of my ability? I think
that's a real question right now. So are
you doing well enough? Yeah, bro. You're enough,
baby. I mean, I guess so. You know?
But I think always, you you you're the
toughest critic. You know? Yeah. So, I mean,
I think I think probably compared to others,
I I I don't know. I guess I'm
doing well. You know? But but, again Compared
to others Like, in my mind names. Who
are those others? Oh, I I I won't
do that because they probably come back and
be like, hey. You ain't doing nothing. You
ain't you ain't got nothing. But in my
mind, I'm doing well. You know? Because that's
what I'm about. I got a positive self
image. You do.
But, you know, it's I feel like that's
that's the challenge right now in education is
and I think we
I think we are in
different times. You know? Things have changed, and
and just trying some different approaches. And I
and and, you know, I think
trying to be transformative
or laboratory
is is hard. It's not easy. It's not
an easy process, and there's a lot that
goes into it. But,
Well, and if we if if it was
easy, we wouldn't have to be liberated.
That's right. That's right. And we wouldn't we
wouldn't be if we sweat it. You know?
And so that that's where I'm at. It's,
I think a realistic perspective, but but but,
getting through it. Getting through it. And the
joy of of being I still just love
these kids,
being back in person and and just Yeah.
Seeing them be themselves and and and go
through the process and readjust to
to all the demands,
you know, that are being placed upon them
even though I don't know. Like, you know,
I think they're still getting used to, like,
hey. I haven't seen my people in a
long time.
Yeah.
And I still think that's a priority for
them. We gotta we gotta do we gotta
do an episode where you just kinda talk
a little bit about that because what we're
kinda coming back to, like like, we're realizing
that the loss that has happened, like, what
this pandemic has cost us,
academics are only a small part of that.
That's right. There have been much heavier costs
that aren't being talked about,
and we're gonna need to talk about them.
Woah.
Something is happening outside. No idea. Do you
do you notice? We for those of you
who finish it. For the those of you
who are are just getting the audio version
of this because it's the only version,
we we are not in the same room
currently. We are in the same building,
but we wanna be unmasked, and that's how
we wanna do this. Right? And be safe.
I just wanna see your sweet face, man.
That's it. That's it. That's all it is.
That's all it is. So speaking of the,
like, the Well, what about you? How you
doing? How how are you?
Man, I am I'm great, honestly.
And,
I'm busy and I'm exhausted all the time.
And
I kind of, like I'm on muscle memory
at this point, kinda like, okay. I know
I go in this direction at this time,
and then I drive to this place and
that kind no, man. It's good. I'm staying
real busy.
You know, my my grad school program is
is amazing. I'm enjoying it so much. I'm
learning so much.
I feel like I'm the least intelligent person
in the room most times, but I feel
like that's I think that's good for me
on a on a number of levels.
And so that's been kinda fun. I also,
I'm getting ready to go to DC, Maine.
There you go. Go to DC. What are
you going to DC for? So,
cause problems.
Cause problems. Thorough trouble. Good trouble. A good
trouble. Yeah. That's right. In in the legacy
of the late, John Lewis,
trying to trying to make some good trouble.
Yeah. No. They're, they're hosting,
all of us state teachers of the year
for probably our last
in person, like, official event together,
during our term. Actually, we're about to announce
the 2022 Colorado teacher of the year in
a couple weeks. And,
so then my term will start drawing to
a close. And,
so we're gonna be out there. It's called
Washington Week. We get to meet some policy
folks.
I I have received an email saying that
it is okay for me to tell everybody
that there will also be a White House
visit.
So your boy
is gonna be up in in the White
House or maybe on the White House lawn.
I don't know which we're gonna be in.
Well, remember that number one, my favorite question
is to ask about the history of the
White House and who built it and Yeah.
Where those people stay and all of that
important information to put them No. On blast
constantly.
Yeah. We gotta do that. Three twenty crew,
you gotta make sure you do that.
So I got that.
And I'm still, like, vibing over the fact
that I got to meet kid Meryl last
week. Yes. Shout out. School. And How was
that? We still haven't chopped it up about
that. No. We haven't. I have to tell
you about it. That dude is
funny. And, actually, one of
the one of the biggest hearts that I've,
like, ever been on a Zoom call with.
Like, the dude is just full of love
and just super dope and hoping we
can figure something out. You know what I'm
saying? Yes. We gotta figure it out. It
might be something to figure out.
But you know what I'm really excited about
right now? That?
I am excited.
I am hype.
Like, the kids don't say hyped. They say
hype. Yes. I am hype
about what
you all
in the nation are about to receive. Kevin,
what are they about to receive?
They are about to hear an interview with
the imminent scholar
and and thinker and and pedagogist
And artist. Artist, Goldie Mohammed, the author of
the the
highly popular, if you haven't checked it out,
Cultivating Genius. Seminole even. It it is is
a powerful book, I think, for all educators
looking to
educate black students,
BIPOC students.
A really powerful
very powerful book with tons of great strategies,
a clear framework,
things that you like, I read that book,
and there were things that I was like,
I can every day I read it, things
that I can implement the next day. And
so I think it is like, doctor Mohammed
is so powerful,
such a thinker, and I just think that
the people will
be deeply moved and inspired by this interview.
I I agree. And,
and you're a lot. Learn a lot. And
spoiler alert, you're not you won't hear Kevin
right away. It's not because I'm monopolizing
and silencing,
my brother over here.
He was pulled into some professional obligations. We
may or may not be recording this during,
a time. And,
you know, so he he comes late, but
as you're gonna find out, he comes right
on time. He is on time for this.
Yeah. We we were a we reached out
to doctor Mohammed via Twitter.
She loved the name of the podcast. I
mean, that's what it is, man. Come for
the name.
Stay for the conversation. That's it. That's it.
We also get a fire top five from
her, and so that's pretty Yes. Beautiful. So
we just wanna invite y'all to sit back,
relax,
enjoy some wisdom, some artistry, some creativity, and
some laughs.
Myself, Gerard Munoz,
Kevin Adams with doctor
Goldie Mohammed.
Hey. What's every what's up? Well, that was
easy for me to say. What is up,
everybody? It's me, Gerardo Munoz.
Sans Kevin for the moment. Kev,
I hope he's gonna be here. He got
caught up in some school related things, and
we
are definitely two,
school teachers in the city of Denver
right now.
But you are listening to two dope teachers
in a mic, and it just really, really,
really gives me incredible
pleasure and humility
and
fanboying
status and all that kind of stuff to
introduce to you our guest,
doctor Goldie Mohammed. Doctor Mohammed, how are you?
I am well. Thank you. I'm so happy
to be upon amongst the dopeness of the
podcast.
So thank you for having me. I would
argue that you are more than amongst it,
but you were probably bringing most of it
at the moment.
Even if Kevin makes it into the conversation,
I do not think
that, we will overwhelm the amount of dopeness
that you have. So we just really appreciate
you being here. For those of you who
don't follow doctor Mohammed's work, follow doctor Mohammed's
work,
professor at Georgia State University
and,
or or no?
No. I I just returned to my alma
mater,
this summer.
So late this summer, I started,
at University of Illinois at Chicago,
which is where I finished my graduate studies,
and now I'm an associate professor of language
and literacy there.
So I love it. This is University of
Illinois at Chicago. Shout out to Justin Johnson,
my good friend who is the Illinois teacher
of the year,
teaches
band,
in the area. Y'all should connect at some
point. So, well, thank you for the correction.
Really appreciate it.
We we've been so excited to have you,
on the podcast, doctor Mohammed, because so much
of your work is just so
transformational
and so refreshing and so powerful.
I've been teaching this my twenty third year
as a teacher, and I needed your book
twenty three years ago.
And,
it's just got so many wonderful lessons. So
I wanna talk with you a little bit
about some of the lessons from the book
and then some of the bigger picture
projects that you're working on. And if we
have time, we'll get to, we'll get to
some, top five rapper talk, which is something
that we like to do here on the
show.
So
so your book,
Cultivating Genius,
which
deals with the topic of culturally and historically
responsive literacy,
is is is a book that has been
recommended all over the place. I got it
as soon as, it came out.
And it's a really fascinating book.
There are five sort of
dispositions, I forget what you call them,
that you sort of focus on. Can you
talk a little bit about
what those are,
and kind of how you came
to those, to that understanding?
Sure. Yeah. So,
I studied
black history,
black literacies,
black educational,
educate educational history as well. And,
particularly, I studied communities called black literary societies
Yeah. Which started in the eighteen hundreds. And
I would read what, you know, our ancestors
wrote about education,
about thinking,
about learning.
And it it was it was making me
think about,
education today and how I can be a
better teacher.
And so in studying some of these artifacts
and archives,
I came to five major pursuits
Pursuits. Or components of learning. Uh-huh. They had
five major
goals or pursuits for learning, and they call
their learning standards pursuits.
And I thought that was, like, a very
interesting
word
because,
you know, you've been teaching twenty three years.
You know the feeling of standard versus
feeling of pursuit.
Yeah. A standard is, like, kind of a
bit small in comparison. It comes from someone
else. There's a ceiling. There's a stopping point.
A pursuit means it's more self driven and
evolving and purposeful. Oh, wow. Yeah. And so
their pursuits were,
identity development. As they were learning, they were
coming closer to who they are,
in a sense of self.
They were also learning the pursuit of skills.
They were learning the skills and proficiencies needed
across math, science, and language, and arts, and
history.
They were, number three, learning the pursuit of
intellectualism.
They were striving toward knowledge put into action.
The fourth pursuit,
involves abolition two is criticality,
which is they wanted to claim
language and ways to use it to make
the world better.
So they were using criticality
and developing it
as a way
of naming, disrupting
oppression in the world.
And then the fifth pursuit is joy. They
were experiencing
and acting beauty,
the aesthetics,
truth,
justice.
Yeah.
That's among us. And these five pursuits
became a collective model that I brought into
contemporary times into schools and classrooms today to
take up to bring a different type of
pedagogy to our children, one that is is
steeped in this,
historical black genius.
Yeah. And I think the thing that is
so,
striking to me is is
as I read and reread your work
is that a lot of our sort of
culturally responsive pedagogy
that we're rolling out
at the district at district levels,
through,
you know, traditional systems of education
promotes
CRE
as if it's a as as if it's
like this kind of newfangled adjustment to education.
And what's so striking to me about your
work is
that you are rooting it in with terms
like restore,
recover,
draw from history. Like, these are things that
are really interesting because I think you're one
of the only,
folks that whose name comes across our desk
as teachers
who is saying, no. We're not looking
at something new. We're not reinventing. So we're
actually going back into history.
So can you can you talk about how
why it's important to view education and educational
equity
through this lens rather than we have this
new thing, and we gotta do this new
thing. Because we don't do this new thing,
we're beginning to do old things. This is
a reach back to history.
Well, you know,
I'm I'm suggesting
reach back in history to,
do better today
because it's better.
It's working.
There you go. If if you told me
that, like,
something else was better for children, I'll be
for that too. There you go. There you
go. It's it's really about what's more advanced,
what's more rigorous, what's more intellectual, what's better
for our children. Right. And it just so
happens, and ironically,
that
to know what to do for the future
of education, we have to go to the
past. And usually,
you know, the his the history isn't really
seen as, like, oh,
advancement
or technology or innovation.
That's right. But, you know, they had they
were doing more,
stronger pursuits than we,
do today, than we, mandate today in schools.
Mhmm. And so
because
and I'm not the first to say this
and to sort of adhere to this Sankofa,
ideology.
The future is best served when we go
back.
Mhmm.
And I won't be the last to say
it, but, you know, there's something beautiful
that was there.
And I think we talk a lot about
the pains and the oppression
of history,
but we had groups of people who were
doing something beautiful that we can learn
from to thrive today. And that's really what
it's about. It's really,
going with what's most excellent, and that's what
I've been taught to do. If you're most
excellent, I wanna be on your team. I
wanna be on you. And that's these are
the most excellent models.
Yeah. Absolutely. The, two points and
one
that just really got me deep. You talked
about when we go back into history, we
we can't we we see the pain that
there's a lot of history,
of pain, especially when it comes to experience
experiences of,
black people in America,
and people of color more generally as well.
And,
but I I think that this is such
a humanizing
approach because
you are quite literally ascribing
more human characteristics to the folks who were
impacted
and forced into enslavement.
And so the these are the there these
legacies that are there, but there's also this
really vibrant intellectual activity,
that that sounds like was happening.
Let let me ask you about these,
these literary societies.
When you were researching these, when you were
learning about these and kind of applying them
as as, as a praxis,
Where are there some examples that come up
about the like, where these literary societies happen,
how one of them maybe started, what they
were studying and talking about?
Did did you get into some of those?
Oh, yeah.
You know, before black literary societies, there were
antislavery
societies,
benevolent
societies,
moral societies.
They had religious societies.
The word societies
became,
a way of naming
organized efforts,
by African American people.
And so there's a history of organization,
of collectivism,
of coming together
to read, write, think,
learn from each other,
get your mind right, get your heart right.
Get your mind right. That's right.
And get your religion right because,
you know, a lot of these societies were,
you know, heavily steeped in religion.
And so they sort of then repurposed themselves
into black literary
societies where it was more focused on education
and reading and writing and thinking and debating
and things like that. Right. And then later,
when they sort of dissolve, they repurposed themselves
into historically black sororities and fraternities in the
nineties. Okay.
So it's like a legacy that continues and
that Yeah. They were sort of adapting to
the times around them. There there were situations,
but what was important was was having these
communities that have a set of values.
Yeah. And and you still see this repurposing
today. I mean, you still see this sense
of collectivism
in new organization
and new organized efforts.
Even with my summer writing institute, Black Girls
Write,
I like to think of it as, like,
a contemporary,
literary society.
And so while these started in Boston, New
York, Philadelphia,
DC,
Connecticut,
you know, those,
cities and areas in the Northeastern part of
our nation,
they started to spread a little further out
Yeah. As, you know,
we we reclaimed our own power and and
and more liberties and things like that.
Yeah.
So that's amazing. I I
I thank you for that,
for these examples because I think that
it's not just saying that there is a
great thing that happened in the past, but
it but it's a legacy that's continued over
centuries. And
it doesn't always have the same name, but
it always has the same sort of,
to your point, pursuits. Right?
So I've been doing,
in my graduate school work, I'm taking a
class on, that's an analysis of teaching. Right?
And so I've got frameworks
on the brain right now. And these kind
of, like, different ways of looking at frameworks
and realizing the frameworks,
I heard in the interview with Charlotte Danielson
who had done one of the I forget
which framework it was. And,
she talks about how using a framework for
using her framework for evaluation
was actually sort of the lowest common denominator
that there are much greater things that can
be done with the framework. And so that
kinda brings me to a question about your
framework. It's so,
clearly defined,
and so it it's just there are aspects
of it that are common sense, but the
thread is so powerful and so important. Who
would you say that the framework that you
write about in cultivating genius is for,
and
what are the greatest sort of manifestations
of the framework that that you have written
about?
You know, so I I think
I think
the way art works. Right?
You start with saying this was the intention
and the thought behind it. Right. And then
you allow yourself to be open for the
beautiful ways that your art can manifest.
Right? I can understand
that. That. I love that.
Yeah. You know, my intention and first thinking
around it, and I think it's okay to
have first, second, third thinking around frameworks. Yeah.
Yeah. Because today I know more than what
I knew yesterday.
Mhmm. And,
so my first thinking is,
this is a pedagogical framework. This is one
that's for teaching and learning and to help,
structure
pedagogy in terms of lesson plans and unit
plans and what we teach and how we
teach it.
And then
it has also been you know,
my next thinking has turned into,
this is also around assessment. This is also
around teacher observation and evaluation.
How are they teaching and,
successfully
these five pursuits?
I have seen it as a benchmark assessment,
so where I started to create benchmark
assessments around these five pursuits so that we're
collecting more data
and not just skill reading and writing and
reading
math levels, right, with skills.
It has it has morphed into,
people using the
the model to think about business
and Oh, interesting.
Yeah. Equity. You know? So I've been working
like, I work with Adcolor and Google, and,
they're even thinking about how do these five
pursuits show up in our company and our
ways, our interview protocol.
You know, I have talked to doctors
of how these five pursuits show up in
health care and making sure we're safe in
those spaces.
So, you know, that's the openness of art
and creation and development
is
it if when you create something beautiful, and
I do believe it's beautiful, this model. I
agree. I agree.
It's okay for me to say that because
Yeah. I I felt the beauty when I
was writing cultivating genius.
And when you create something beautiful,
I think
it can it can have longevity,
and it can go into multiple spaces that
you did not initially
imagine.
And,
it can have sustainability
and, like, be timeless in some ways.
And and that's that's my hope of the
model that teachers take it and take it
into ways that my mind couldn't go initially.
I mean, that's cool.
Wow. That's I love this because, as you
know, the academy is often a place where,
where a scholar
is sort of pressured to write the final
word on something. Right? That this is what
this is where
you are
for and and for and, like, before I
say that,
to characterize this as a piece of art
is so beautiful and so apt because I
think that there's there's creativity behind this thinking
and the fact that it is flexible and
it is something that can be built upon,
I think, is is really beautiful.
So what you're sort of saying is that
cultivating genius is is open to cultivation.
Right?
That you can,
build off of it. There are other places
where it can go.
And I love this point. You know, the
the thing that I that I really think
is, wonderful. There's
there as as a teacher
as an early service teacher, I was really
focused on
on practice. Like, okay. How how do I
do what are the assignments that I should
be given
giving and and
what are the specific lessons. And then as
I kinda grew, I started to think bigger.
This work does both,
particularly the,
I think it's, I think it's in chapter
three where you talk a little bit about
identity
And,
the notions around identity formation
are really complex and really deep and philosophical.
And then you go into, and here's how
you work with identity with young people. And
I just
am so into that. Was was that something
that came kinda naturally to you, the pedagogy
and praxis thing, or did you have to
do work on one end or the other
to kind of get into that mind space?
No. It came very natural. I mean, that's
one of the only things that come natural
in life. Everything else the lack I had
to really work at. But pedagogy and practice
and curriculum comes very natural to me, and
I'm thankful for that. Yeah. My PhD studies
didn't as much. I struggle
through it, but, you know, we make it.
Mhmm. But, yeah, you know,
I
I think part of the reason I struggled
in my PhD
is because I would see all this scholarship,
and I would see the schools. And I'm
like,
why this big gap?
And I would see, like, folks
putting pressure to write all these articles, but
schools weren't changing.
I would notice that, you know,
the American Educational Research Association
and these organizations
would be in these cities and the policies
in these cities
weren't serving black and brown children well in
schools. It's like, what are we doing?
Yeah.
What am I doing? I ask myself. And
so
I feel a part of me to,
always take everything to practice
and to,
because I stay in schools.
I don't teach like you do,
like you're a traditional teacher.
Right. But, you know, I teach,
I volunteer teach. I teach in the summers.
I teach children. I try to
keep that empathy of a teacher and what
it feels like,
as much as I can.
And I know one thing that I learned
from teachers is that
we need to we want to move beyond
theory and these larger constructs and to put
it into actionable
lesson plans, unit plans, something I can pick
up and use tomorrow. What do I do
with this? Yeah.
Exactly.
But not just your traditional empty strategies.
Something that is very intellectual
and different and meaningful and very purposeful for
compared
to a lot of those,
you know, strategies we've learned in the past.
Yeah. And very student centered. Like, the the
the recommendations
you make through the framework,
really lend themselves to a student centered,
you know,
set of habits. And, you know, in that
sense, you know, having tried out particularly the
identity stuff, the identity work is what resonates
most deeply with me,
because as
a,
Chicano growing up in the East Side Of
Denver in a predominantly
African American neighborhood,
the community was beautiful. The community was tight,
but I didn't see myself in the community.
Right? And so I had all these questions
about identity when when I started to come
of age. And so those are the things
I bring into my classroom. And it makes
the classroom, to your point,
feel like a society of sorts. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. Like, we're getting into these conversations, and
we're getting into them together.
And I think that's what is so beautiful
about these. And the strategies aren't overwhelming. It's
like you build this, and there's deep thinking
behind it.
But you it's it's implementable. I think I
just made up a word.
It can it's something can be implemented, in
a deep and meaningful way.
So that's wonderful stuff.
One one point yeah. Go ahead. Oh, I'm
sorry. Something that you said That's all good.
You know,
in school, when I was developing this work,
I I really tried to focus on why
did they use the word
society.
You know? Yeah. Why not,
club or and I use club or Sure.
Society to describe our organized space. And Mhmm.
If our classrooms today are like litter many
literary societies,
you know,
is there something there's something more than just
organization
here. There's something related to, like, collectivism.
There's something related to we are trying to
build a society to reflect and impact and
improve the larger society.
So I think, like, even that language was
very purposeful.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Thank you for unpacking that. I think that's
a really important distinction. And I think too
that what the work suggests to me
is that while we want students to develop
skills and to engage in pursuits
that will help them grow as individuals,
that that this is going beyond the kind
of individualistic
imperatives that I think has really defined,
education for too long,
and saying that being independent is really
good. Being interdependent
in your community is really
even that's probably the highest sort of aspiration
for our people and for our community is
that we learn to be interdependent. We can
all support each other. And I think as
you describe the word society and why that
was an intentional choice and you name collectivism
as a as a habit,
that's that's that definitely pops off the pages
to me. It's like, no. This is actually
at its best, the framework is a set
of interdependent
motivated people pursuing excellence.
Sure. Yeah. Beautiful.
That's beautiful.
Love it so much. This is so great.
Feel full.
Feel good. Yeah.
So we've got I've got a couple more
questions and definitely wanna be mindful of your
time. But,
one question that comes up for me a
lot. So in my position as Colorado State
teacher of the year, one of the things
I'm working on is
how do we
diversify
the teacher pipeline? How do we ensure
that the tea that more of the teachers
who are in front of our kids,
share some sort of experiences
with our kids or the kids can see
themselves in front of the classroom? So when
we start looking at the work of cultivating
genius and your work beyond, you've done so
much other work,
in addition to the book.
How do we engage in this work that
is really rooted in black excellence? And that's
a program that we have in in our
district, which we can discuss another time.
But,
how do we implement a a program that,
that comes out of this space when
the vast majority of,
public school educators are still white?
So I think that there's two things that
have to happen at the same time. I
think given the current population of teachers we
have, we have to educate them. We have
to hire conscious white teachers,
who understand justice and Yeah. Liberation
and equity and culturally and historically responsive education.
We need to,
bring
those educators
in
and educate those who are currently here. Yeah.
Simultaneously,
because that's who are in front of our
babies every day. That's right.
And
I think simultaneously,
we need
to go and recruit and entice folks to
come into the field, to come into our
school. I mean, it does not matter what,
business,
or area we're talking about. If we're talking
about sports, if we're talking about business,
if you want the best, you go out
and get it. If you don't, they're great
for you
or and you recruit
and you,
you invite.
Yeah. You know? We need to do more
recruitment and inviting, and there's certainly lots of
programs and partnerships and pipeline programs, even grow
your own programs where, you know, the students
who graduate the district, they come back and
teach in that district. There's a lot of
great models out there. So people are doing
that work,
but,
you know, it has to come with funding.
You you get out, you get the best,
you gotta come with something. Yeah. You know,
education is, like, one of the only
fields. You know, I'm all for, like, salary
equity and resource equity and stuff.
But, you know, we have to be more
imaginative
of getting the brightest and best teachers and
recruiting.
I always say, if I get a school
recruit me, I'll go back into the classroom.
You put the best package in front of
me. Yeah. Whatever it is. But, you know,
we have to you know, schools are thinking,
like, of hiring bonuses,
resources,
giving them a small budget,
you know, thinking about using our
our budget differently for more salaries and more
supports in the summers. So I think we
also have to
think of ways to recruit them, but to
retain them and keep them to make it,
like,
a beautiful profession to have. I think the
way in which education is structured right now,
it is enticing
for some
and for a lot of us, but it
can be enticing for to get more,
genius teachers at the table
even if we think something like our school
day and our schedule. If we created more
genius time, genius hours Yeah. Where we can
plan, like, this incredible, brilliant pedagogy, that would
bring more teachers in Wow. So that they're
not so burnt out or have to teach
this this conscious curriculum.
Yeah. Yeah. This conscious I love that word
too. But, yeah, I I agree. And I
I think that, you know,
as as it happens,
money is helpful in capitalism.
It's it's just real talk on that end.
And I think energy. I mean, you have
to worship it. But That's right. You know,
it it can be energizing
to to help. You know, a lot of
times, we want teachers to
rewrite and adapt,
their curriculum. And I'm like, can we pay
teachers to do that at least so that
we're showing that we value their time, and
it is a lot for them and their
families?
Yeah. Definitely. And when you when you have
cities I think Chicago is probably like this.
Denver is definitely like this where,
salaries, just for people in general and wages
in general, make it very difficult to live
in the city that you wanna work in.
And so I think that, you know, I
mean, at a very basic level, it's like,
you know, Denver, let's try to keep up
with the cost of living in this city
because
the alienation that's happening between,
kids who live in the city and teachers
who don't live in the city, I think,
is is real.
So this is a question from Kevin, and,
I'm really kinda curious on this.
So
these
the
the underlying kind of philosophy under,
cultivating genius
is very liberatory, and it really
is kind of reaching back to find excellence
for today.
So,
the question we had was
when you're working directly with students and we're
we teach middle and high school,
how do you recommend instilling
abolitionist
mindsets when serving children who maybe resist the
approach because it's foreign, it's new, it's
they've been kinda cut off from it in
some ways.
They're kinda used to
the traditional model of education, which is individualism
and,
and obedience and those kinds of things. Kevin
is here.
Kevin unpack that for a second. Yeah. I'm
right at his question. I know right at
his question. This is good.
There is the man.
Hi, Kevin.
We were just talking about you. We just
I just posed your question,
and I may have done it wrong. Uh-huh.
You wanna
you wanna try again?
Doctor Mohammed, it's so good to see you.
It's so good to be here. I'm sorry.
I have laid I've been proctoring
the PSAT, and we had extended time
in my group. Love it. You're right on
time.
Perfect. Perfect. I love it when a plan
comes together. But, my question is,
you know,
this year, I've been trying to really engage
in
in abolitionist
pedagogy in my classroom. I think it's been
a priority for me. And I think my
question ultimately comes down,
from your perspective.
Like, when we start to engage in this
work, it's it's really becomes difficult, especially when
we're dealing with students who have had some
educational trauma,
in their past. And so I just wondered
if you had any thoughts. This is a
really personal question, you know, on, like, how
do we counteract
the the those moments of educational trauma while
still,
building that that joy
and that interest,
and cultivating the genius that you speak about,
you know, in these kind of authentic
ways, when sometimes students might not be,
because of their background and their experiences,
you know, ready to engage
in some of the things,
in an authentic way that it be become
transformative for them, if that makes that way
better than I did. So yes. Yeah. That
that was a different question too.
But I I love both the questions.
And and I I I think, you know,
if we think about different types of children
here. Right? So we might have the child
that's like, I don't wanna keep talking about
this. It feels trauma and do sometimes as
an adult, when we keep teaching and talking
about oppression and back black pain and black
resistance, I get tired. Even some museums I
go to, I'm like, woo.
That was heavy. Like, we need a black
joy museum. Why all our museums gotta be
so painful?
Yes. I mean, I go through that, and
I think our children
go through that too.
And, you know, I'm sitting here today, and
I'm starting to write a black studies curriculum.
Right? And I'm like,
this is gonna be about genius and joy
and Afrofuturism.
It's not going to that that slavery that's
their history. That's not our history. That's our
history don't start with oppression and this and
that. And that's that's the heaviness
of it because we don't have enough museums
of black joy
and and
and black creativity.
We are always we always had to resist.
So I think one approach will be to
teach the joy.
You know, whatever topic it is, start with
the joy and the genius and the innovation
and the spirituality
and
the the
whatever it is that brings that that fulfillment
of beauty
first.
That will help to balance it out.
And every lesson or unit doesn't have to
be steeped in pain.
Mhmm. You know, there is a I know
a lot of our history, even our music.
Right? Even the joyful parts,
their quilting
is still like pain there. Mhmm. And I
think we tell the truth about it. We
don't just ignore it, but we also teach
about Afrofuturism.
And we're in a space of infinite possibilities
where you can be and thrive without whiteness,
without anything, like, holding you back, where you
can literally,
transport
as if you are in outer space. That's
what af
Afrofuturism allows one to do. So I think
we have to balance that more for our
black and brown children.
And, you know,
for children who just don't wanna teach learn
about this, because a lot of our children
think that we don't have these problems. That's
y'all problems, Kevin. That's your your generation's problem.
Yep. Yep.
You know, we teach them. We teach them
the contemporary aspects, the historical aspects, and why
this this matters and why it should matter
to you. We make those connections to their
lives. You know,
a lot of,
I had a friend
who's Middle Eastern. I know that's like a
wide identity,
but he says and my father is like
this too. He's from Iran. He says, you
know, we grow up,
being very political and understanding justice and power
and things. So to say that this is
not a part of your
regular curriculum or pedagogy, that's something that's unique
that might be unique to our country.
Because a lot of young people have a
very strong political sense in other countries. Yes.
Not just of their own context, but of
other countries in addition to their own.
So I think it's about
bringing children into the fold
of what this is, what it looks like
on a global scale,
and then what how it connects to their
own lives. And it's not always we don't
if you don't experience
oppression as a young child, that's a beautiful
thing. Mhmm. That's why I'm with you. Whoo.
I'm glad.
Yeah. We don't want if we went through
it, we don't want you to go through
it. That's right. But it doesn't mean that
young child, I should not teach you what
other people go through and what people have
been through. And so they have to understand
that. So if it comes up if if
it confronts them,
they'll know how to navigate any form of
oppression and injustice. That make sense?
Yeah. No. I I love that. I love
that idea too. This this the focus on
the joy and that they,
like, the idea of Afrofuturism
and and the possibility
of what comes, you know,
from all of it and when we focus
on our joy,
our passion, our love that we grow up
with. You know? And I think
that that really does help, put it in
perspective because, like, I think I do come
at it heavy handed. You know? At times
with the kids, I'm like, this this. You
gotta know this. And, like, I'm teaching world
history, and I'm like, we we aren't even
talking about white people. We're talking about the
history of all these other people who we
haven't learned about. Yeah. But but I think
going back to the joy of it all
and why like,
what it is about these other,
you know,
histories that are so joyous.
And and, like, when I read it, I
get wrapped up in it and wanna transfer
myself to these moments and times and, you
know, thinking about
before we we,
have, you know, western
Eurocentric capitalism dominating our whole world. You know,
there were different things. And so that that
really does give me perspective on that. So
thank you.
Yeah.
Doctor Mohammed, we definitely wanna respect your time.
Do you have time to give us
a top five?
Top five rappers and Right.
So so Kevin's got the ground rules, and
he does a much better job of explaining
the guidelines than I do. So, Kevin, will
you share with doctor Mohammed,
the ground rules for your top five?
Yes. So so we started out saying,
top five rappers, MCs,
but I think that has evolved because we
know that, you know,
hip hop can be problematic. Hip hop is
growing. Hip hop
is is problematic.
It it it is trying, you know, like,
all of us
trying to improve in in a variety of
ways. But, again,
I think we open it up. So if
it's not rappers, if it's not MCs, we've
had people say, you know, I love R
and B music,
and and they We might have to have
a separate, like, top five R and B
for some folks because that's, like, come up
a lot lately. That's come up a lot.
I would say that could be the whole
podcast.
That could be.
And then we also you know, we we
try to be nonhierarchical.
So That's right. Even though we say top
five,
you can, you know, have ties for people.
It can be, you know, not an order
that this is, like, what you're gonna hold
me to. This is my top five forever.
When you see me in the streets, don't
get at me because that was just a
moment.
And it could be what you're vibing to
right now. It could be all time favorite,
but we try to keep it as open
as possible
for folks. And then, finally,
if you you can't settle on a top
five, we always give the option where you
can have ties,
where you can go over the top five.
You can add addendums.
Yeah. So take it we we give a
lot of appendix. There can be an appendix.
We call that the, Eric Hale rule. Eric
Hale is the Texas teacher of the year.
And I think by the time he was
done with his top five, there were probably
14 performers on it. Yeah. Yeah.
So so yeah. I mean, you know,
I I am, like, a big fan of
Stevie Wonder. I'm always gonna say it. One
of his songs, he was rapping. And, you
know, he even
said, Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's how I
would sound if I rapped.
So,
you know,
my favorite MC is my partner, my future
husband, Dee Jackson. He's a part of a
group called Eighties Babies,
and he wrote an album called unlearn.
And it was about,
cultivating genius, but we didn't recognize it at
the time. Right. I love that.
Good.
And so, you know, and he's
I'm not just saying that because I love
him. He's very talented
and
genius in his approach. And, you know, one
thing about emcees and rappers, I mean, it's
such a beautiful craft.
Yeah. And I mean, to freestyle, to create
language and and art in this way is
just I mean, I'm just in, like, awe
every time
I have experienced growing up artists and how
they use their voice and to the music
is just phenomenal.
Yeah. So,
I eighties babies and Dee Jackson, definitely.
I mean, from the sisters,
Queen Latifah and, MC Lyte. I grew up
with them. I love them. I love their
cadence and everything.
I love Tupac,
Busta Rhymes, Nas.
Kendrick Lamar is, like, one of
my favorites
now. Like, every time I listen to Kendrick
Lamar, he seems greater. Like like it was
like, this dude's great. And then I was
listening to the song he did with, what
he, that he did with Beyonce on Lemonade.
And I was like,
he is great.
And it's like it's new discovery every time.
Yeah. And he you know?
I mean, it's just it's just such a
beautiful art. You know, when you think about,
like, Bone Thugs and New Orleans rappers, they'll
lose their voice and I mean,
it's just phenomenal. Yeah. It's great. So those
will be some of my people. And, you
know, Dee,
Dominique, my partner,
I always say that, you know, I always
tease him and be like, can, positive k
is, like, my favorite MC. Can we do
I got him? Oh.
She wants to do it. What's your man
got to do with me? I got him.
And he refuses
He refuses.
That song with me.
So,
No funny. That's my goal. Maybe positive k
would do it with me. You know? That's
right. You know? Maybe positive k would. Because
positive k would be like, yo. My main
goal in life is,
you know, the control part, I got that
down. Got it. You go. Now I'm doing
both parts. I changed even the tone of
my Yeah. And I do both parts, but,
you know, that's my dream. And and just
like it just like in your work, it's
a beginning. Right? And so you build on
to it. There's manifestations.
Right?
It's how it goes. Exactly. Well, we we
so appreciate you, coming and taking this time
with us, doctor Mohammed. What are you working
on right now? Where can people find your
work?
So,
they can go to hillpedagogies.com
and, you know, on my social media, Goldie
m on Twitter or Instagram.
I posted,
I I usually post, like, curriculum and, videos
and podcasts like this.
Mhmm.
Right now, I'm working on
today, I wrote a unit plan on sugar
with my model
Nice. Cool.
Science teachers.
And so I'll probably post that tomorrow.
And,
I'm working on a black studies curriculum,
for secondary school students, middle and high school.
We need that.
Yes. Completely need it. Yeah. It's it is
exciting.
It's really exciting, some of the topics. I
mean, because when you think about it, if
you could just write out topics of blackness,
what will be on your list? Right? And
that's where I started.
And it was like, oh, oh, oh, oh,
this is so cool. So,
yeah, I'm constantly just working on curriculum and
curricular efforts. And, hopefully, the next book around,
Unearthing Genius and Joy,
will come maybe next year. We'll see.
Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. Just like a
yeah. Maybe album. Maybe album. I mean, Cornel
West did that. Right? Took a two year
off and and made a album, and that's
hard. That's not easy. That that's rigorous there.
It's not. It's an intense process.
It's like, Yacine Bey said on Talib Kweli's
podcast where where he's like, yo. It'll be
out when it comes out.
The book will be out when it's out.
You know? It's art. You cannot bash it.
You cannot bash the rules or creativity when
it's time. It will be just like Kevin
arrived when it was time. Exactly. He came
right on time.
So doctor Muhammad, we like to do a
thing.
When we conclude, we say a few words,
and then the three of us together, if
you don't mind, we say stadov together. Does
that sound good to you? Stadov together? Is
that what you're saying? Yep. We just say
stadov.
Not together. We just say stadov.
That might be an addition. I I like
that. That might be. I mean, because, you
know, in some way, we're talking about independence
versus interdependence. Right? You have meet over together.
So for our amazing guest, doctor Goldie Mohammed,
author of Genius. For my partner who is
always on time,
Kevin Adams, my name is Hidarba Munoz, and
we invite you on this beautiful autumn day
to stay focused, stay taking care of yourself,
stay in your positive imaginations,
stay joyful,
and beyond anything else, make sure you always
stay
Go.