Hey. Yo. What is good
to Dope
Nation?
What's up, y'all? It's Gerardo Munoz,
your Elosopher King, your 2021
Colorado teacher of the year,
and your very tired podcast host because it
is wild out here today. Welcome
to two dope teachers and, Mike. In the
event that you're a new listener and in
light of who our guest is today,
I'm guessing we have some new listeners out
there. So to all of our new listeners,
I just wanna say, hey o.
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We are here for all of it. We
are here remixing the conversation on race, power,
and education.
Really hope you,
school based professionals,
especially
my teachers out there,
are
finding
a way
to just slow down.
I am so excited to introduce my guest,
and we're gonna we're gonna talk a little
bit about, like, the just
the auspiciousness,
the fortuitousness
that actually brought us together in person a
couple weeks ago. So we'll talk about that
in a minute.
But I wanna introduce,
my friend, Sakwa Rohany,
who serves as the executive
director of Roots Connected, which is a super
dope organization.
I
came across their organization
on a rebel educator page that I joined
and met up with some people there. Y'all
sometimes these networks that spring up to reimagine
education
and to really talk about what's authentic and
what can be real in education
can be, really powerful. So I met your
colleague,
Shireen, who put me in touch with you.
Roots Connected is an is an initiative
that Sokhwa
co founded and launched in 2017
that is transforming
schools and workplaces.
Sokhwa's passion for her work stems from foundational
belief in the essential oneness of humanity.
In her role, Sakwa leads RC's strategy
while also
supporting the organization in all areas of programming,
growth and development. SocQuest
committed to collaborative decision making
and feels grateful to work alongside a team
of brilliant, dedicated, supportive, and collaborative humans. I'm
like, dang, we need this in my job.
Her vision for roots connected emerged organically after
over a decade
of experience
and learning at Community Roots Charter School in
Brooklyn, New York.
The school is a pioneer in the intentionally
diverse school movement. Sockwa began as a founding
teacher
at Community Roots in 02/2006,
and went on to serve as its director
of community
development for nine years.
Her work focused on engaging staff,
students and families in the community building processes
necessary to create intentionally
integrated and anti bias school communities through staff
development,
curriculum support, and innovative family and community programming.
Charter.
She's worked with young people and in the
field
of community development for over twenty five years.
Sakwa, I feel like it could be said
that you just be starting stuff.
Stuff. That's a true story, that's probably why
I'm so tired. You just be starting stuff
in a good way. Like you were a
founding like teacher at this school, you start
you've founded roots connected, you just be starting
stuff all the time. Sakwa Rahani, welcome to
two Dope Teachers and a mic. How are
you today?
Thank you. It's so nice to be here.
It's so nice to be with you in
conversation.
I'm just excited to
dive in, to share a little and learn
a little and and all of those good
things.
Yeah. No doubt. And so we we had
this really funny experience a few weeks back
in,
the amazing city of Chicago, Illinois.
We both had the honor of attending the
Embrace Race National
check them out and I will actually link
their website in the show notes along with,
links to Roots Connected and anything else that
we need to share.
It was really funny though, Sakwa. My, my
director thought I was running a race in
Chicago.
She's like, oh, I thought it was called
the embrace race.
It's like, yes, we run a five k
and then we hug.
That actually that's not a bad idea. We
need more of that in the world. But
yeah, so I I had to kind of
explain what it was, but it was really
funny because we're we're at the opening plenary
session
and I see
your name and roots connected up on the
screen. And I'm like and I texted you
right away. I'm like, are you here?
We were in a room of, like, 250
people, and we had met
remotely, but we hadn't met in person. And,
yeah, I just suddenly get a text, like,
are you in this room? I'm like, I
am in this room in another city that
neither of us live in. So That's right.
It was super important. Serendipitous to say the
least. For sure. And we got to take
a cool walk with some other, educators by
the lake and got to hang out and
chop it up. And,
that was really fun.
So I wanna yeah. I wanna kinda dive
right in. There's so much to talk about
when it comes to your work and your
impact and just the things that you're thinking
about.
I wanna start with your TED talk. That
was, and that's linked in the show notes
everybody. So
check it out. I think if you are
an individual of color from the global majority
who has maybe not the most English sounding
name, this TED talk is gonna resonate deeply
with you.
It's about your name, and this was what
your colleague
asked me to, like, look at first and
say, if you don't do anything else,
watch Sockwa's TED
talk. And so I did, and it's moving.
It's like deeply personal.
How does that
story reflect the broader themes of identity formation
and anti bias education in the classroom for
you.
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks so much for,
for, like, letting my story
resonate in some sort of way and and
for for sharing how it did resonate. I
think that was
probably for me the,
the most impactful part. It's like when you
have a story that has deep impact on
you and your journey to have the opportunity
to be able to share it and then
to share it in that kind of like
space,
it just it's very,
affirming in a lot of ways. And so
I appreciate the chance to even be able
to talk about it. But obviously, a lot
of what I shared was just a vulnerable
story. It was the story of my own,
you know, journey with having a name that
sounds really different, looking really different, having a
language and a religion and everything that just
was very different than what's the quote unquote
norm. And so I think
at the end of the day, like, very
bottom line of all of this for me,
it's just about belonging.
It's about how we're creating spaces
for kids,
to be truly, like, seen and heard and
valued and honored as who they are, like,
as a whole human.
And I think, like,
belonging is,
it's not a buzzword,
but it's really a bridge, you know? It
isn't soft. It's something that's abstract,
and it's really the condition that lets
students
learn,
speak up, and thrive ultimately. And so at
the end of the day,
that's the piece that I feel the most
committed to,
and I think that's what I tried to
sort of, like, pull out in that or
dig deeper into,
in that particular,
TED Talk. But I think the reality is
and the research shows that
as kids belong, as they are seen, as
they are honored, as they are valued, They
engage more in their learning. They have fewer
behavior problems. They persevere through difficulty. They perform
better overall.
So again, it's not just like a feel
good extra. It's really sort of, I believe,
the foundation
for education. And it's what at RootsConnected, at
our core, it's what we're sort of, like,
committed to is each child really seeing
the humanity in one another.
Yeah. I think that's so powerful. And I
think now that,
and everyone knows, all my listeners know that
I work in a central office space now.
I don't work in the classroom anymore. And
that's been pretty eye opening
in a lot of ways because exactly
what you are
implying
is the case, which is that we tend
to see ideas around belonging,
around culturally responsiveness,
around culturally sustaining practices
as being the soft things that we can
do once everybody's at grade level.
Once everybody's
engaging in grade level texts and tasks, and
once the
the assessment
numbers are better.
And I love that you're naming this as
a hard skill,
the teachers need to develop and the schools
need to develop and not a soft skill.
The second thing I wanna really
elevate
in my experience
watching you tell your story.
So you talked about in the TED talk
how
you and correct me if I have this
wrong, but you had kinda grown up
as as a little one,
like, you're you're proud of your name or
at the very least you didn't see anything
wrong with it. It was just your name.
And then to be jolted out of that
by a teacher
and to be kind of forced into this
kind of,
like, upside down world where it's like,
I didn't know my name would be a
problem. It's actually sort of the opposite for
me where
I was preemptively given a nickname. Like I
got a nickname immediately
and so it took me until I was
about 20 years old when I had
a professor, a white professor, which I will
name, who told me that and he said
it with this wonderful, like, Bronx Jewish guy
accent. He said, with a name like Gerardo,
you should not be going by Jerry.
And I was like,
well, if Bruce Bassoff says it so, it's
so. But I think that's, like, for me,
if I was still in the classroom,
I think what I would take from your
story is also don't assume that every kid's
name story is the same.
Like, some have never
received an ink inkling that there's anything weird
about their names.
Others
may have a name that they've already been
conditioned
not to love. And so I think that's
where it sits with me is that everybody's
journey with their name, if you come from
a historically marginalized or minoritized group, is gonna
be different and you have to be attended
attentive to that.
Yeah. And I think that, like, I my
story happens to be focused on the name.
Right? But there are so many ways that
we are all othered, and I think that's
why that's why the story, I think, resonates
with so many different people because whether it's
your name or it's another part of your
identity,
that either wasn't valued or you were asked
to shift or change, then there's there, I
think that's, to me, that's the value really
of having an anti bias lens on curriculum
and culture, because you're ultimately saying
that we want to try to create spaces
that as much as possible mitigate
the,
mitigate the biases that exist and create the
conditions for people to be able to show
up as their full selves. Right? And I
think, like,
to me, the,
what I love most about anti bias education
is it's not like an add on. It's
not like a, okay, it's 12:30. It's time
to talk about racism or, like, this is
our It's our bias time. Moment. Right? But
it's really, like,
what are how are my morning meeting questions
designed? How am I thinking about,
like, how am I asking the question in
this read aloud? How am I having this,
like, book group discussion? And even if we
don't agree with the book, how am I
making space for kids to be able to,
like, connect to it and think about it?
You know? And so I think it's thinking
about it more as a lens than an
add on is is a really,
I think, makes a lot of sense and
is what I think ultimately from the top
resonates and connects to what you're saying. There's
no one monolith. Like, there's no one way
that everyone experiences
everything, but that there are ways in which
we may need to
create the spaces for
all humans to be,
like, seen. I mean, this this is what's
so dope about the work that you and
your colleagues at Roots Connected do.
And it's like what I, as a thinker
and an educator, am dying for because
we're always looking at the promising practice. Right?
We're always looking looking for, here are the
indicators
of, you know,
culturally responsive education. If you're hitting these indicators,
then you're probably doing a good job. And
as you know, both of us have a
lot of education experience between us as you
know,
that
doesn't
often solve the issue. Like, what I wanna
promote
is the opportunity for mindset shift. Right?
Like, for me, somebody asked me at one
point, especially
in light of all these attacks on critical
race theory,
somebody asked me, well, do you think it's
dangerous to, like, proclaim yourself as a critical
race theorist in these days?
And
my response was,
I mean, a little bit, but I don't
have a choice.
It's it's literally how I see the world.
Like, it's literally my lived experience. It's, like,
it's either I do that or erase myself
from existence.
And
so it like, it's about the mindset.
I think the last thing I'll say about,
about names because, like, you had a really
nice segue into,
you know, what
this kind of work really looks like. One
of the things that
I remember so the majority of the students,
that I worked with who had experiences of
people mispronouncing or avoiding their names,
I had
a little bit of an advantage because I
couldn't say Spanish names. Right?
It wasn't until I had a,
a Southeast Asian student,
who
I I
couldn't say the name. And so I asked
her. I'm like, how
do I say this? She's like, you're gonna
get it wrong.
Just call me this. And I was like,
I would I would love to try.
And that vulnerability
of, like, this is so out so far
out of my comfort zone, and this child
is fully within her rights
to laugh at me and that kind of
thing. The vulnerability, I think that was the
first time I actually felt that vulnerability because
it wasn't a language that I speak.
It's easy when 80% of the hard names
quote unquote
are in Spanish because I can say those.
Yeah. But if you give me a name
from a different culture like SACPA,
it makes me feel vulnerable and I'm like,
okay. Like, now I am sharing in this
power.
Yeah. I'm glad you said it. There's two
things that you mentioned that, I
I just wanna, like, pick up on the
you mentioned about mindset shift.
And for us at Roots Connected, a big
like, a framework with which we work in
where we feel change happens, like, we call
it actually the dual process for change, is
that that change needs to be
it's it's twofold, right? It's the internal work.
It's the mindset work. It's the transformation of
the human heart. And then it's also the,
the work around shifting practice. You know, we
think at roots connected that unless those two
things are happening sort of in the cyclical
process,
then we can't change or move things forward.
So there's so often we're working with schools,
and they'll say to us, like, you know,
we've sat in rooms, and we've had conversations
about identity and bias, and, like, we've sat
in that, but then nothing changes in the
classroom. Like, I'm not, I don't know what
I'm supposed to do in the classroom. And
then we have the opposite where it's like,
I've been handed this, like, culturally relevant curriculum,
and I don't, I can't teach it.
I haven't done the internal work in order
to teach it. Right? So I think a
big
way in which we move through
the work that we do in different spaces
is around that constant,
you know, personal transformation, collective transformation, and how
do those two continue to work together?
And the other piece you brought up that
really for us is, like, so core is
that we believe that there are these, like,
schools are made up. They're communities
of kids, and they're communities of families, and
they're communities
of faculty. And like we say so often
that usually what's right by kids is right
by grown ups, too. So how do we
continue to, like, make spaces for kids, but
also practice those as adults? If we want
to make spaces of belonging for children, like,
how are we creating those spaces
in professional development? And it doesn't take, like,
a long time. It doesn't have to be
the only thing we focus on. But, again,
it's like, how is that the lens with
which we're creating professional spaces? You know? Yeah.
That's awesome.
I wish that any of the two schools
that I worked for had,
stumbled upon your work and brought you in
to do that work because because I think
too, like, we're we're all processing this stuff,
like, being
Yeah. Aspire like if if we take it
through the through Paulo Freire's mindset,
we're aspiring to become human. We don't arrive.
So it's a the process of becoming human
is dynamic.
It's not static and it's fluid and it's
nonlinear and, you know, adults,
especially like, you know, a Gen Xer like
me, like, we
didn't have these opportunities to be thinking about
this one when we were kids. And so
there's like
opportunity there. I remember. So you started to
talk a little bit about
teaching through an anti bias lens, and we
started to kinda touch on this a little
bit. And this is something that you've spoken
at length about, that you have,
done such meaningful work. We'll talk about, the
the roots connected frameworks.
All this is gonna be linked to y'all,
because the thing I love about your work
that you do is that while I want
people to contract with y'all and support orgs
like yours, there are things that you you
can start engaging in this mindset shift
Yeah. On your own and nobody's gonna stop
you from changing your mindset. But,
so how does
teaching through an anti bias lens look in
practice?
And then what are some
things that Roots Connected does
to
kinda help schools and educators start embodying that
approach?
Yeah. Thanks.
I think, again, because anti bias education is
a lens, it's it what it looks like
in practice is, like, these small shifts or
small tweaks that actually have big impact. Right?
And so,
you know, an example, we were touring a
school,
in early January, and we saw up on
the in the hallway I'm sure this will
resonate with so many people because this is
so common. It's like up in the hallway.
The kids have drawn these beautiful pictures of,
like, what did you do over the break?
You know? Just the question of what'd you
do over the break.
And even that simple question, it makes you
think like, how can this possibly be a
barrier for a child? How can the simple
question of what did you do over break
create sort of that barrier to belonging
just by that simple question. So then when
we ask teachers to sort of evaluate or
think about that question or reflect on it,
suddenly they're like, yeah, you're right. That suddenly
makes it, you know, kids, what if it
was a heartbreak? What if, like, this kid
went to, you know,
their house up in the mountains and this
kid, like, didn't? Or, like, all of a
sudden you're creating these, like, opportunities
for
barriers to sort of emerge. Right? And so
we always say, like, how do you
instead
create,
like, in that specific situation, if you're putting
an anti bias lens on, you're trying to
think about questions that can increase depth and
vulnerability
and give choice to kids. So it's not
just answer this one question, but you might
ask questions like what was something that made
you laugh over the break? Who's someone you
spent some time with? What was a moment
that brought you joy from this break, or
what was an act of service that you
did? And so I think shifting it a
little, first of all, gives entry points. And
as soon as you have choice, you're creating
more opportunity for kids to be able to
engage
in a way that feels right for them.
And then you're making all of those things
okay things that happened, you know, during during
that break time. And so I think it's
just that doesn't change the lesson. It doesn't
make you have to do a whole other,
you know, lesson about, you know, what biases,
but it's just it's creating,
the conditions to be able to have a
conversation. So we always talk about how it's
really like those small shifts that can create
larger impact.
Or before launching into a unit, you're about
to study history and you're about study a
period of time in history,
maybe just take a little bit of time
and allow kids to think about their own
identity and how their lens is going to
impact the way that they're learning about this
history, you know? So who I am
is going to deeply impact how I think
about what we're learning. And so making space
for kids to just be able to, like,
honor that and say, like, I'm coming from
this place, I'm coming from this place, you're
suddenly opening up a conversation that has to
do with perspective and has to do with,
just the lived reality of the humans that
are in that space, for example, you know?
Yeah.
I laugh because,
when you talked about
these, what did you do over break?
I remember,
a colleague of mine,
instead of doing that question, asked the question,
what's a song you heard repeatedly this summer
that you hated?
And that's and so and it just launched
into these great, like, because all the kids
could be like, oh my gosh, there are
these stupid, like, songs that got written and,
it is those small shifts. And so what
I hear you kinda saying is that
it isn't even a matter of
coming up with some sort of seismic action
as an individual classroom teacher that can start
to move the needle.
Is it fair to say it's just about
asking your yourself the question of who is
excluded by this activity and how do we
disrupt that exclusion?
Yeah. And I think that even like, starting
with ourselves, like, does,
like, what is this, who is this question
written? Like what perspective is writing this question?
If I had an amazing summer or an
amazing break, then yeah, I want to know
what everybody's break is. But if I like
experienced deep loss over this break, that might
not be the question that I wanna answer,
right? So I think, like, it's also examining
our own perspectives. I think often, like, asking
others, like, do you feel like there's other
questions that are missing here? Is there anything
that I'm missing? We only have our own
perspective, right? And then it's also like
the other thing that we've done. You asked,
like, how do we do this with schools?
Schools engage with us in a few different
ways. Like, they either,
hire us to do coaching with them. We
have what we call institutes with our which
are more like intense
learning spaces,
where we marry sort of theory and practice.
To us, it's really important that people walk
away with not just being like, Yeah, that's
amazing. I want to do that. But, like,
real practical,
how do I, like, what's one thing I
can do? Even if it's just this thing,
let's say your point that I want to
move the needle on, how do I do
that? So,
those are the different ways that people,
engage with us. But one of the things
that we have supported a lot of schools
in is, like, creating, like, real, actionable norms
or guiding principles or guide you know, a
lot of schools have those. Right? And or
if you ask them, they're like, I think
we had them. I think we made that.
I don't know. Do we still use you
know? But, how do you have norms that
are, like, actually
usable in classroom conversations?
And norms like if you're about to study
history,
ask like, norms like,
let's be careful with the language that we
use. Let's not use words like always and
all of them, but maybe some and maybe,
or let's speak from our own experience when
we're making a statement, or let's understand that
we're never going to be experts of this,
right? So I think setting those sort of
norms, again,
we're not asking for, like, a huge
overhaul, which also in this day and age,
like, just we know how exhausted and overrun
teachers are. It's not about, like, shifting or
throwing out an entire curriculum. It's like, how
am I changing and shifting my own mindset?
And that slowly starts to shift my own
practice in these small ways that have big
impact, you know? Yeah. Definitely. You're starting to
kinda go into this idea
of community building. And I know that that's
something
that
your organization does with intention
and with,
and with a specific sort of
goal.
So what we've tried to do is, again,
like, what are the practical
things we can do? So instead of, like,
it's not like, what color socks do you
have, and let's line up with whether you
have these socks in your drawers or these
socks in your drawers. And we're talking about
creating intentional space to build community. Right? And
so what we
have sort of
defined is, like, three pieces of a community
builder. And if you remind me, I'll send
you this resource. Because we try to have
as many resources,
free, open sources, so that, like, folks can
use them, and hopefully, they're helpful. So we
kind of try to think about a community
builder in three different parts. The first is
that you always make space for some sort
of norm, like norm sharing. Like, hey. We've
cocreated these. Let's remember when we're in this
space together, we're gonna speak from our own
experience,
or we're going to,
learn from each other, but not, like, take
our stories and share them with others. Whatever
the norms are, you share them first. The
second is to actually do the activity, whatever
the activity is, right, where it's building community.
It could be, like, respond to one of
these questions or share
a moment of joy from the last, like,
you know, two weeks or, like, let's build
this thing together, whatever the activity is and
whatever you have time for. Right? Right. Then
the last piece, and I think this is
the piece that gets forgotten so often, is
some sort of debrief. Right? It's like, why
did it how do you feel after having
that space together to hear from somebody else
or hear someone else's story? Or, like, what
did it what, what's, what is this making
you think about? I'm thinking about with faculty,
right? Like, what is this making you think
about in terms of your own classroom space?
And that debrief space
suddenly changed this, like, icebreaker
eye roller experience to like, this is a
meaningful thing that we just did that I
can then just do with my kids as
well kind of thing. You know? We're trying
to, again, create the similar spaces. Like, what
I just described, having a community builder have
these three parts, like, have some norms, do
some sort of activity together, then have a
debrief. We would do the same thing with
families as well. So if you have a
gathering with families,
like, start off with something like that. Sometimes
it's just five to ten minutes, and it
can
completely shift what a room, like, feels like.
You know? We had a group of families
coming for a meeting one year, I remember,
and we said, you know, let's just start
off with, like, an artifact share with families.
And we grouped them, and then we had
them in small groups share, like, an artifact
that told a story about their lives. And
at first, like, it was like, oh, like,
what?
But, like, within two minutes, the, like,
the feeling in the room shifted, you know?
And then we asked them, like, why did
we why did this matter that we did
this? They know. They said, like, oh, now
I feel like I know this person a
little bit more. It humanizes us before we
start talking about these other really hard things
that we need to talk about. And so
I think those those things take it from
being, like, just a, like, a quick, like,
okay. Share this one piece of information.
Those three elements sort of give it the
weight and allow you to talk about the
why. Like, why are why does it matter
that we're starting in this way, in a
world that continues, in a society that continues
to tell us we're so different, tells us
stories about other people, tells us that,
this person thinks this way and this person
thinks this way? Like, all of a sudden,
like, I know that you also love to
eat Italian food, and we can sort of
connect about that. Or I also know that
we have this or that's interesting that you
do this. I never and so suddenly, you're
humanizing,
and I think that's the most
critical piece around the community building where it's,
like, really seeing
seeing people as humans. You know? And that
takes consistent
practice.
Yeah.
To that point
of
repeating
stories and reproducing stories that present
human beings as one dimensional,
as caricatures,
as,
you know, the greatest fear
embodied. Right? Building those bonds of friendship.
What can educators do to help young people,
like, really build those connections
that you and your organization
are really emphasizing
in ways that are authentic and lasting?
The first thing is to just believe it
yourself.
Like, believe that it matters.
You know?
If you if I and I think that
comes back to, like, understanding the research around
belonging, understanding the why. Like, why does it
matter?
How does that
help, like, shift the narrative of what I
think about somebody when I start to humanize
them? How do how can I see how
history
like, historically,
the reason why, like, so much pain and
hurt has happened is because we've dehumanized people?
Right? Like, how can I actually understand the
why? And when I believe that myself,
then it becomes more possible to say, like,
you know, let me start my morning like
this, or let me before we dive into
this unit, let's make some space for, like,
kids to actually talk to each other, for
adults to talk to each other. So I
think, like, it's first believing
believing it, you know?
The second is, like, just being consistent about
it. I think so often I know, like,
summer professional development starts and it's like this
year we want to do this, this, and
then there's an initiative that starts.
And sometimes that like even the community building
quote unquote, or the icebreaking happens like at
summer PD, but then we never, we don't
come back to it. Or like we spend
the first two weeks building community in our
classrooms
and then we don't come back to it.
And so the second piece is just consistency,
like making sure that that's happening
throughout the year because we're all growing and
learning and shifting and changing. And, like, if
we don't continue to make space for that
connection,
we're just gonna continue to, like, believe the
stories. You know what I mean? Because those
stories Yeah. Have been designed to powerfully tell
us a thing or another. Right?
You have to actually
believe in belonging.
What you're framing
is that typically
and I think this it sounds like this
has been your experience in schools. This was
definitely my experience in schools,
where our community building
and our professional learning are separate somehow.
And I remember there's a story with my
old director
who was addressing an issue with an employee
that just wasn't engaged and
wasn't
buying into anything that that was happening. It
was just very unpleasant. So the director says
to the employee,
understand this has been really hard for you.
What are you willing to commit to? And
the employee said,
I mean, I'll do the work.
And to which the director said,
what do you think the work is?
And to me, that was such that was
so illustrative of the of the dissonance that
we experience
that we mistake the work for the tasks.
Right? The work is the people.
Right?
Tasks are gonna come and go,
but
the work is how do we position ourselves
to be
just really
in collaboration with each other so we can
come up with the best ideas for kids
or whoever it is that that we're serving.
And so I think that's what I hear
you speaking to. It's like I I
can myself drown in the to do lists.
Right? But when I can lift my head
up a little, I'm like, we're talking about
human beings. We're talking about, like, the transformation
of the human heart, and so much of
that just gets sort of, like,
lost and,
buried. And, again, I think a lot of
that's intentional and on purpose and by design.
But we're not, like, given there was a
woman I worked with who would say spaciousness.
You know, I'm not given the spaciousness
to, like, be
and to create and to, like, connect. Right?
And I think,
as grown ups, as as a society, we
can see that there's less and less time
for that even, right, or that we're made
to believe that that is not valuable.
And I think at the end of the
day, that's actually at the heart of this.
It's just stopping to have that conversation,
to ask that question, and to really listen
to the answer.
And, yeah, I think
the I think the third thing I would
just say
is just making sure
to have, like, accountability,
like, to your opinion about norms. Like, how
do we if we're gonna have norms that
will help us have meaningful conversations,
how do we come back to them and,
like, may like, hold ourselves and our communities
accountable to them, you know? So I think
all of those things
matter, and I think the thing that people
tell us so often, it's like, we don't
have time, we don't have time for this,
there's no time for this. So again, like,
yeah, there's never gonna be time, but how
do we even carve small,
a small space? How do we make just
five minutes to do the thing? You know,
just five minutes and start there. And it
almost becomes contagious because you want you crave
that because the peep the community craves that.
And but we don't realize it's actually making
everything else more efficient
when we actually make the space to Well,
you're spending less time in HR meetings, and
you're spending less time in
disciplinary hearings, and you're spending less time in
mediation.
Right? And which is not to say that
any of those things are bad things. And
if you're if you're experiencing
harm, then those are like there are tools
that are set out for you, but the
toolbox should not be the machine.
Right?
And I think that is such an important
point.
Like I would even counter when when people
say we don't really have time for this.
I would say, actually, we don't have time
not to do this. That's
and it's mind blowing to me.
The manufactured
urgency that happens in some of these systems
where it's kinda like
so many
teams have just gone away from even doing
introductions. Like, I remember being in a meeting
last year and people just launched in and
I just kinda raised my hand. I'm like,
could we just do a quick round of
introductions? Like, I don't actually know everybody in
the room and I don't know what you're
speaking from. Like, I would I would love
to at least know your name and your
role. Like, that would be a really big
thing. So
the human work is the work, I think.
Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. So
you you've named a couple of at a
couple of different points
where there are
think there are barriers
to this humanizing
work that are intentionally being being sort
of manufactured,
reinforced,
amplified, and all those things. And, of course,
the thing I thought about was the current
climate of hostility
or tension, I should say, around around the
idea of DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Where where
are you finding
roots connected is supposed is
is engaging,
and how are you staying grounded in this
knowing that
there is this
and it's from a minority of people. Right?
But this push to sort of demonize and
even criminalize
DEI,
what's the mindset you encourage in that, and
how do you stand firm in that conviction?
Yeah.
Well, I think for some reason easy. Right?
You just do it. It's not hard. It's
not exhausting at all. I don't think about
this at all. I don't think about it
every single moment of every single day. Super
easy. It's not a problem.
I think even, like, the language of DEI
has just means a million different things to
everyone. Like, probably even if you and I
were to unpack it, we might be like,
but I think it means this, and I
think it means this. And sometimes it has
a b attached, and sometimes it has a
a attached. And That's right. There's all these
different things, right, that it that it means.
So I think the first part is just
getting on the same page. Like, what are
we even talking about, first of all? Like,
are we talking about the same thing and
trying to do some sort of, like, shared
language around it? And then just remembering like,
I find a lot of,
I find it very hopeful that, like,
that remembering that this isn't the first time
in, like, history
that there's, like, resistance against this work. That
part. And,
like, the resistance against,
like like, centralizing
you know, centering mar marginalized voices or centering
justice or,
what we're trying to the pain points in
history.
Yeah. Like, it's we're not the first. Right?
And we and we want to be the
last, but we probably won't be the last
to resist in this way. You know? And
so,
I remember in the
in the heart of the 2020
when there was obviously so much happening around,
like, the COVID pandemic, and then there was
a lot happening around just, like, almost like
a stirring of consciousness around race.
I was sitting I had a I had
a dear friend, an older African American woman
who, like, would invite me into her backyard,
and we'd just sit there and drink, like,
coffee at seven in the morning
outside in the desert. And she would tell
me these stories about, like, her fighting and
marching in the streets for school integration. And
I just remember being like, you've been like,
you've seen this, you know, you've, like, watched
movements.
And I think remembering that, like,
resistance has always been part of the story
is really helpful. Like we're not
alone and it's not our first time. And
so I think remembering that has been really
helpful.
And, like, we believe at RootsConnected, like, we
have been doing the work where it's this
isn't new for us. We're not now doing
it because it, like, matters more. Like, oh,
no. What do we do other than what
we've always done? Yeah. And so there it's
nice. Like, we can, like, continue to do
the work. And the reality is, like, we
can call it whatever we want. Like, we'll
call it whatever, but we won't stop doing
the work. And so I think that's the
most critical thing for us. And the thing
that we ask leaders and teachers in this
moment, because there is a lot of fear.
There is a lot of, like, unknown.
And what we ask teachers is to just
do whatever's in the locus of their control
to do. And if they can make one
small shift or they can do one thing
a little differently, then that's what we can
do in this moment. And I think, like,
it it just requires us not to, like,
stop. It just requires to keep going, but,
like, do the thing that makes sense in
that. You know what I mean? What you're
sort of saying is that I I can't
control what's
happening two time zones away
in the halls of government.
I can control how I run my team
meeting.
Right? I can control
how I receive
a complaint or a problem of practice. Like,
those are things I can control.
Yeah. And I'm definitely not saying that, like,
that there isn't just so much grief and
so much pain and so much worry. At
all. Nope. Like, it is so heavy. And,
honestly, some days, like, waking up and being
like,
god, what what's go what's going on? I'm
like, oh, yeah. Like, it's just it's in
the air, and there's so much there's so
much, and I'm not gonna, like, pretend that
there isn't. Yeah. Of course. But all I
can do and what I can lean back
on is, like, yeah, what is in my
control today, right now, in order to do
to bring a little bit of, like, connection
and justice and kindness and love? And, like,
at the end of the day, how can
I,
how can I move in a way that,
like, comes from that place of love in
those interactions, however small, you know, as tiny
as a grain of mustard seed, as they
say? Yeah. The the thing that I thank
you for that and I definitely
think like so this
is Sokka MB telling you all audience,
don't get down on yourself if you're not
moving mountains with every, like, motion. Right?
Because at the end of the day we
can only do what we can do.
And I think,
the last thing before we get to the
fun question, the last thing is kind of
like
the the way it all looks in the
world right now can feel really, really overwhelming.
And especially for those of us who are
working
in or around
public education,
it can feel that much more urgent
and that much more
anxiety inducing. So
are there core practices or mindset shifts
that you can offer to educators and others
who do want to
deepen their commitment to justice equity and anti
bias education? Like, what would that be?
Yeah.
I'm gonna pause for a minute. Can we?
Can you can you edit here? Yes.
So
if you could offer
one core practice
or a mindset shift to educators or others
who wanna
really make that progress towards deepening
their commitment to justice, equity, and anti bias
education,
what what would that core practice
The first is to choose something really small,
like a small shift that you can commit
to and do that small shift consistently.
Like
yeah. Choose something small, make it make it
happen. We're we're actually doing, like, a whole
webinar series that's gonna be for free, free
of charge if anyone wants to come. Just
short thirty minute webinars that are all
small shifts, big impact. Like, what's something small
you could do? Either change your language, change
one word that you're using, like, just these
small, more tangible things that you can do,
and I'll try to I'll send that to
you too so that you Yeah. Awesome. But,
yeah, just, like link that. The spaces where
you can make like, just commit to something
small, but just do it consistently.
And the other one is to not go
at it alone, you know, find support, whether
it's, like, a colleague in your school
or they're in your community or not in
your community, some place where you can share
reflections and ask questions
and broaden your perspective. But I think you
were mentioning earlier, like, you heard about us
through
the rebel educator pack, and then it was,
like, embrace it's, like, there's these groups. There's
there's I remember, like, at at the embrace
race convening, I was like,
like, yourself included. I was like, there's people
I can talk to, and I can, like,
put them ask questions to and just find
that community or that person and remember that
you're not alone. And I think those are
the two, I would say, practices in this
moment,
that hopefully can, like, help.
Yeah. I think and I think that's so
key,
that you don't
go it alone because sometimes identifying that small
shift is difficult. But when you get into
community with others,
then it kinda gets you thinking about those
things. And when you were talking about not
going it alone,
it took me back to
my days as a community organizer when one
of the most fundamental things
that we worked on was like,
well,
who are the five people that you call
when something has happened in the world that
you're really upset about or really concerned about
or really worried about? That's your organizing circle.
Right?
And, and I have another friend who they've
started doing these mutual aid communities where where
she lives, but it didn't start with, hey
guys, let's together get together and have mutual
aid. It actually started
with their buy nothing page,
in social media, and then they started building.
It's like, well, maybe we're not maybe it's
not
items that we're just trying to get rid
of. Maybe it's like, hey,
I have a great cookie recipe. Does anybody
wanna trade for something? And, like, that kind
of thing. And so I think it is
starting with those relationships,
and I think intentionally talking about those things.
One of the commitments I've made in my
space, because I'm in a space that takes
itself very seriously,
is
in every meeting,
if I haven't made people laugh one time,
then that has not been a successful meeting.
Because I think our ability to just smile
together
is extremely important. And it's not that I
wanna be a jokester and it's not that
I don't want us to take the work
seriously,
but I'll frequently tell people that I think
this work is too serious to be so
serious about it. Like, we gotta be human
about it.
And if we can laugh together, then we
can do other things together. So that's a
little thing that I try to do. I'm
I'm gonna I'm so glad you said that,
and I wanna share this
I wanna share this quote with you because
it resonates so deeply with me and with
what you're saying.
It says that joy gives us wings. In
times of joy, our strength is more vital,
our intellect keener, and our understanding
less clouded.
And I think that idea of, like, having
joy
at the end of the day
is actually going to serve us and the
work so much better. So I'm I'm so
glad you said that, and it's so it's
so important and it's so critical to to
continuing to do the work. Joy is radical.
One of my three. And it's Oh, it's
all good. Joy is radical. And and it's
hard. Right? And I think they're like, we
could do a whole series on joy. Right?
And what that looks like. And I will
name
that I had a really exhausting day to
day, not for any particular uniquely
exhausting reason. It's just like,
you go through this day and you do
the thing and it's tiring. And I will
say that this conversation represents
me ending my day with joy.
A lot to smile about here, but we
have
the most important question. Kevin is not here
to ask this question. So are you ready
for the big question? I think I am.
I have to say that it was probably
the hardest question to prep for.
We get that feedback all the time. It's
like, listen, I can talk about DEI and
critical race theory and anti racism. Like those
are easy,
but don't make me pick my top five
rappers. So let me give you, the guidelines
around
the rules around top five rappers. Okay. So
rule number one is that there are no
actual rules.
What it is is it's permissions that we
extend to you. So,
for me,
I'm a hip hop epistemologist
and ontologist. Like to me, I process
everything
through my hip hop lens.
So
rule number one
is that there are no rules. And rule
number two is that it doesn't have to
be hierarchical. Hierarchy is a very
Western concept. It's a very white supremacist concept.
So it doesn't have to be a ranking.
You can make it a ranking if you
want it to be, but I know that
that's really difficult.
Number three
is that like so many
things that focus on
the humanizing
possibilities,
This is dynamic. This is fluid. So
this is a snapshot
of where you are at right now
with your top five. Doesn't mean this is
where you're gonna be next week. Right? So
you have a right and I know this
is controversial
in in the hip hop community
like people will come at you for your
top five if it changes, but I'm a
disruption even within a disruption community. I am
giving you permission,
Sohrabah.
Your top five is whatever you think it
is at the moment that you think it's
the top five, right?
The next rule is that collectives can count
as one. So you don't have to break
up the Fujis, hypothetically.
You don't have to break up Wu Tang.
That that they're on my they're not number
one. They are on the list. See
See.
You don't have to break up Wu Tang
because if you broke up Wu Tang, it
would be a top 35 or something like
that. So you can't so so collectives can
count as one, which I think is consistent
with this conversation.
And then the last thing is
you can have ties. I call this Eric
Hale rule. Eric Hale 2021 Texas teacher of
the year.
He launched into his top five and he's
like, alright, I got a three way tie
for fifth and now I got a four
way tie for fourth,
and I was like Eric you're just trying
to shoehorn 45 rappers into your top five,
but we decided you know what man like
you disrupted
our dogma so that is fully permissible. There
aren't hierarchies.
Right? There shouldn't be numbers. Well, there there
don't have to be. It doesn't have to
be. You can choose hierarchy. Okay. You know,
maybe a benevolent hierarchy, I guess, if such
a thing ever existed.
But so let me ask you,
I wanna ask you about your top five
rappers. We will often differentiate it. Hip hop
is broad
and there's a hip hop world that's broad,
and so there may not be people who
are rappers
per se.
But who are your top five?
How have they helped
shape your worldview, your work,
or your spirit?
Yeah. This took me like a minute.
I had to have many conversations
with my partner where he was like, oh,
so you're like then there's this, and then
we have that you. The a consulting protocol.
Right? A consulting consultancy protocol. Yeah.
And, obviously, like, rappers can mean different things
to do. It's just there's so many things.
Right? That's a pretty good say my top
five, and I don't have them in order.
But I think the folks that helped get
me through
many, many moments in my life would be
I put the Fugees and Lauryn Hillis separately
because Lauryn Hill to this day, I would
say,
her album is like
like, I I can listen to the to
the whole thing, like, straight from front to
back, and it every song resonates in a
different way. I still remember when that album
dropped. Oh, man. Yep. This would not I
would not, yeah, get it off of my
CD player.
That's right. That time.
Again, like, I using maybe the word rapper
loosely, although that might be up for up
for debate. But boys to men is my
other, like, just
they they Boys to
men. They raised me in so many ways.
They yeah.
I I I would say that that's probably
the first thing we can do. Was was,
like, eighth grade for me, which was a
very important year in my life. So yes.
Yeah. And, like, every, like, every love and
breakup was just Oh my god. It's the
end of the
road. I cried. I cried in that I
cried just laughing around to that song. Yeah.
So I hear that. And when I first
the when I was first introduced to my
to my partner, he his voice has has
has a boys to men, like, baritone. I
was like, oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Now I know what all
He's like, I'll take you out for all
the Philly steaks you can eat.
Done. Done.
And then my so that's three Lauryn Hill
Fujis,
Boys two Men, and then my two others
are SWV and TLC. And those
those two groups are
oh my gosh. I can, like, hear those
songs now, and I am, like, in just
transported
and Yeah. Like, forever.
Oh, I'm sorry. I also have Envogue. I
have too many. Oh, I'm gonna do some
good work on this. Well, it it sounded
like Lauryn Hill and the Fujis were were
sort of combined. Together, Estelle,
and En
Vogue. Those were all just like,
yep. Those are my die hards. Oof.
Where we narrowed it down to, and it's
still six. So That,
that top five is fire.
And I love it because I think it
it's interesting that you can like, there's something
sorta dope when I hear these top fives
and you and I are probably listening to
this music at the same time in our
lives,
which I love. And I always feel like
I encourage vulnerable, like doing this top five
is a vulnerable act, Right?
Because you're exposing yourself to that. So I
lean into the fact that my top five
is always changing.
So currently,
my top five rappers,
J. Cole,
Cause and Effect, Cause of Cause and Effect.
Yeah. Okay. They have a dope collab that
I can't get enough of called Knock the
Hustle,
which is just it's about
it's about survival
and the toll that survival takes on you.
I'll send you the track.
Yeah. I'm like, I love how I have,
like, my post it, and I'm writing not
the hustle
on my Not not the hustle. Like, not
Not the hustle. Not the hustle. Yeah. Okay.
Yep. Correct.
Yep. So so there's J. Cole and Coz.
MC Lyte is just a forever top five
for me.
I just think that she was so underappreciated
for
her breath control, her cadence, the
the the way her voice resonated around these
lyrics. Like, she was just just a fierce
rapper.
I love Residente from, Calle Trese,
this amazing Puerto Rican rapper.
He he did a song called,
Latino America
with a bunch of,
Mexican and South American women singers.
I know. This is so dope. So it's
like, I I get into this, like like
Spanish language hip hop that's really dope. So
Residente.
And then the indigenous rapper, Narcy,
who's done some collaborations
across, like, global majority rappers. So, like, there's
a track that Narcy
does with,
Mos Def, Yaseen Beyenow,
and,
Shadia Mansoor, the Palestinian rapper. And it's just,
like,
mind blowing. So I feel like I'm gonna
need to send send you some music. Yeah.
Please. I think that's something to do after
this
after this thousand percent.
Oh, you're right on my phone.
Each of those. I wrote them all down
on my on my post it. So Yeah.
I mean, when I go having grown up
with hip hop, and maybe this is something
that you can relate with, like, I always
think about
how these artists
leave their imprint
on structures in our societies
that seem
unbeatable,
right, these, like, harmful oppressive systems, but
it's like I've got J. Cole out there
leaving a tag.
His,
his most recent release, the single Clouds, if
you haven't heard it, check it out. But
one of the lines that he starts with
is, on the bass in your trunk, the
bullet that mistrump, like and it's just so,
like,
it's so deep and subtle,
that it's like, man, you're just out here
disrupting stuff. And I know Cole, just like
any other rapper, is not perfect, but,
you know I think putting words to that
is just really powerful.
Sakwa Rahani,
I've so enjoyed this conversation. I knew I
would,
and I knew this was gonna be an
amazing thing. Folks, I hope that you have
taken notes, that you are going to the
Roots Connected site, that you're
signing up for these free webinars, bro. It's
free. And it's crazy that that they're giving
us some of this this
insight and this knowledge and this expertise, and
you can just sign up. But highly recommend
signing up for the newsletter,
and keeping up with what they're doing.
What are some other ways that folks can
follow you, connect with your ideas, connect with
Roots Connected's ideas, and all those kinds of
things? Yeah. Thanks. The best way, honestly, is
to get on our website, www.rootsconnected.0rg,
and just sign up for the listserv that
gets you sort of, like, these up to
date when are things happening. Sometimes we do,
like, giveaways and raffles and let you know
when where we are, what we're thinking about,
what conferences we'll be at so we can
connect with folks and do all of that.
That's the best place.
We're on Instagram and LinkedIn, I think, the
most.
I think we dabble in Facebook, but you
kind of threw some some shade at Facebook
earlier today. I'm throwing it at myself because
I'm on there too.
You know, we're predominantly
on Instagram and LinkedIn. So find find us
there. Find me, please, on LinkedIn too. I'd
love to connect with you. If anything that
we talked about resonated, just please reach out.
I love I think, like, in in
in the spirit of building community, it's one
of my most favorite thing to do is
just connect with others doing incredible work. So,
yeah. Beautiful.
And I'm grateful. I'm so grateful for,
sharing, for connecting us, and for this space,
and for being able to have
some time together. Absolutely. It was like for
me too. Yeah. This is great. So,
folks,
we will take you out here in just
a second. So, Sakwa, what I'll do is
I'll ramble just a little bit, and then
you and I will say stayed dope together
because that's what we want is we want
people to stay dope. So for my amazing
guest, Sakwa Rohani, for Chiren, who introduced us,
for Roots Connected, this phenomenal organization that is
moving the needle no matter what the federal
government is telling us to do or not
to do,
for Embrace Race for bringing us all together,
for hip hop, for vulnerability,
for mindset shifts, my name is Gerardo Munoz
and I wanna ask you to always
stay performing,
stay excited,
stay joyful,
stay invigorated and above all make sure that
you always
stay dope.
Perfect.
Alright. I almost said it too early, but
Well, it's okay. It happens.
Check us out y'all. We'll catch you on
the other side.