What's really going on? It's Boots Riley. I'm
the writer and director of Sorry to Bother
You. You are now listening to
two dope teachers
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Hey, yo. What is going on? Two Dope
Nation.
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Mike. We are the most dangerous podcast in
the schoolhouse
to date.
We appreciate you
joining us today
to remix
the, conversation on race, power, and education.
I am Gerardo Munoz,
executive producer and co host. If you are
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We do not have requirements for entry or
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Also, you can look me up at Habitually
Disruptive,
where I just try to put questions in
front of you to make you think a
little bit. And, you know, for me, it's
all about mindsets and trying to do that
kind of work.
So I'm so excited for our guest today.
This is somebody that,
that contacted us a little while ago, and
then we had some really good exchanges going
back and forth.
And,
she and her crew are just doing super
dope work in the area of hip hop
and SEL. So we're we'll get that intro
in just a second.
I wanna share a story
really quickly.
So
I got in trouble in middle school, and
those of you who know me will not
be even a little bit surprised by the
fact that I got trouble in middle got
in trouble in middle school.
I do still believe my inner child is
a 12 year old,
and it's a 12 year old boy who
didn't have really high self esteem but found
out that he was funny.
And that was just the key to, like,
everything. So there's this group of me and
my friends. We used to we used to,
like, have our little, rap group at lunch.
And y'all,
do you know
what the name of our rap crew was?
It had a name. We were the two,
number two. Right? Because wordplay.
Two fresh crew.
So imaginative.
Right? And it's because we felt that we
were too fresh.
Anyway, so we would wrap at lunch.
This got teachers
a little bit, like, upset with us because
we were loud. We were black and brown
boys being super loud in the cafeteria, and
this was not some this was something that
was frowned upon where we went to school.
And so I got detention,
because we had been rapping very loudly. There
may have been other behaviors associated with it,
but I will neither confirm nor deny any
allegations that come my way about how I
was acting in seventh grade.
But I ended up in
lunchtime detention one day with miss Fuller,
and miss Fuller was my drama teacher.
And
this must have just been poetic justice for
miss Fuller
because
in drama class, I would not participate unless
I wasn't supposed to be. And so I
was a kid that was talking to everybody
being loud, yelling across the room. But the
second you call on me, I'm like,
I don't wanna say anything.
And so,
so I go in. I'm wearing my headphones.
She tells me I have to take my
headphones off because I'm in detention. I grumble
a little bit and put it down, and
she comes over and she takes an interest
in me. She says,
so what were you listening to?
And I was like, all full of attitude.
I said,
you wouldn't understand,
right? Because this was a person over the
age of 20. Clearly, she would not understand
anything
that I had to say. And she's like,
try me. And I said,
is there a B and Rakim? So this
is like 1988,
right?
And she says,
oh, well, that surprises me that you don't
like acting or theater.
And I looked at her. I was like,
what do you mean? And she says, well,
you know, they're all performers.
Those are characters. Like, Rakim writes great characters.
And I was like, what are you talking
about? Rakim's a rapper. Rakim is cool, not
like some drama nerd. Like, I didn't say
those things are in my head.
And she's like, no. She's like, you know,
you should
listen to his songs and try to understand
the kind of characters that he is creating
because it's theatrical,
and it's giving us a message that can
be really powerful.
And honestly,
it it changed everything for me.
Part of the reason I got in so
much mischief is that I had a stutter.
So a lot of kids will make fun
of me,
when I would I like to say I
was remixing the language. It was it was
the remix of things.
And but one thing that really stuck with
me with Rakim
was
this was a person
who could express himself with words
in a way that I just
envied.
And from that point on,
I listened for the characters. I was like,
wait, you can script out what you're gonna
say. Like you can practice saying things and
you can do that. So
shout out Ms. Fuller,
fabulous drama teacher. Her daughter,
is actually a really successful jazz musician. And
so I've tried to, like, find miss Fuller
through her daughter, have not been successful.
All that is to,
kinda bring around to our guests that we
have today.
Hip hop
just gave me such an opportunity
to think about my identity in different ways
and to,
and to just find
some safety and some self expression when it
was kinda hard to find,
especially for this little Gen X kid.
And so the guest I have today
is
Jamila Sams.
Hi, Jamila.
Hey. How are you? Hello? I'm doing great.
Am I saying your name right? I didn't
even clarify with you. Jamila? Jamila.
Jamila.
Yes.
It it depends on where you're from. Oh,
okay. I respond. So tell me more about
that. Like, it it it depend depends on
where you're from. What does that mean?
So
I I have parents from two different,
you know, walks of life and two very
distinct accents. And so my mother's from Bermuda.
And so everyone in Bermuda says Jamila,
and then my dad is from Harlem,
and everybody
from the New York side says Jamila.
So I respond to both because both accents
were in the same household. I also wanna
name that I know
I know two Jamila's,
and y'all are both dope. So
gotta be something with the name. So I'm
gonna Thanks.
So Jamila is from this amazing
organization,
called We Do It For The Culture.
And, We Do It For The Culture is
a hip hop SEL
program
that's, like, super dope. And, of course, like,
we look at we do it for the
culture. We look at two dope peaches and
a mic. This is a match
made in,
in heaven,
AKA
The Bronx when hip hop was invented.
Right?
But this is really great. So I wanna
start off with just, a question about the
origins and the mission of
We Do It For The Culture. What was
it that inspired you to create this? And
how does how is hip hop uniquely positioned
to strengthen social emotional learning for young people?
Yeah. Thanks for that.
So it was really a seed that I
think was planted at a really early age.
My father had a store in West Philadelphia
called the What's Happening Now shop.
And that was kinda like the hub where
all the students from West Philly High and
the other surrounding,
schools would come to hang out,
buy penny candy
during that time. You know, I was only
eight years old. That was in '19,
'86.
Oh, yeah. Fast shoelaces,
spike bracelets,
like,
all all the original artifacts of hip hop.
We sold them in the store.
And,
you know, students would come in to get
their Slurpees, to get their penny candy, to
get their, you know,
fast shoelaces. But more importantly, they came to
kinda just
hang around my dad and the staff at
the store
because he was always, like, dropping jewels, talking
to them about education,
you know, talking to them about entrepreneurship.
And so as an eight year old, I
was just kinda looking like, wow, this is
cool. Like, we got these big woofer speakers,
like,
blasting out Jam on it. Jam on it.
And, like, the students coming in, and my
dad's talking. And so the vibe was just,
like, no other.
But as an adult,
I realized that
not only was he you know, he's a
he was a salesman, obviously, but then he
was also cultivating relationships with young people effortlessly.
Right? And so
that's something that I've always paid attention to,
and I try to bring that into the
work that I do with we do it
for the culture. Because as an educator, I
know that if you're building, you know, really
meaningful, impactful relationships with students and meeting them
on their own, you know, cultural turf, then
they're more likely to retain whatever information that
you're going to give them. And then more
importantly,
we hope that they're able to actually apply
it. So,
so hip hop has really just been kind
of just that that corner store
cornerstone of just, like, my upbringing. And so
my dad being from Harlem, when I were
whenever I would go to see,
my grandmother who lived,
off A Hundred 20 Fifth in LaSalle,
like, that's when, you know, I heard it
playing in the streets and playing in the
building and in the in the hallway. She
lived in Grant Holmes, and so music was
just coming from every direction.
And then, I think from a operational standpoint,
when I got older, I used to watch
Teen Summit on BET.
And so first, you know, I had to
see this planet. Okay. Hip hop
is dope. It's bringing people together.
You know? We're building relationships.
And then
to see it being used through Teen Summit
on BET in a really meaningful way, to
see
artists like, you know, Tupac and, you know,
you name it, MC Wright, so many people.
Like, you name it, they were on teen
summit.
To hear them come and talk about their
stories, the stories behind their songs, the stories
behind their videos,
and then this group of young people, the
posse members,
being able to have really deep dialogues
about some of the content that was in
the songs, whether it was self destruction and
we're talking about stopping the violence,
whether it's Brenda's Got a Baby and we're
talking about teenage pregnancy,
you know, Eve, you know, talking about domestic
violence. Like, all those things happened on Teen
Summit. And I just remember growing up realizing,
like, wow.
You know, there's all these messages and all
these lessons that in a traditional, you know,
space,
young people may not talk about. Right? Like,
when you say, let's sit in a circle
and talk about teenage pregnancy,
they probably look at you like you're nuts.
But
right. Exactly.
But if you do it through, you know,
this track, Brenda's got a baby, or if
you're talking about, you know,
violence through through each track,
Love is Blind. Like, now you're creating a
space where
students could talk about really important topics. And
so that's kind of the premise,
the energy, the seed that was planted behind
We Do It For The Culture because young
people today aren't watching
TV anymore.
And so I had to figure out, okay,
how can I meet students where they are?
And I had to come to them, and
where they are is on social media. And
so we leverage YouTube content,
you know, clips from, TikTok and other, media
outlets
in order to create lessons
that students can relate to
and hopefully
extract those social emotional learning lessons from them
and apply them for their own personal And
can you talk a little bit about the
curation
of that content that that you put out
there for young people.
Do you use existing
sort of things that are out there? Do
you create your own? Is it a combination
of both?
Yeah. So currently, we leverage content that already
exists. And so we spend a lot of
time
curating content because,
we have to make sure that the content
doesn't have any profanity or anything that would
be deemed inappropriate
for school.
And so nowadays, you know, most words can
just be used very loosely, but, you know,
we wanna maintain,
you know, that credibility. So we wanna make
sure that we are screening the content for
classroom use.
And so we would curate,
news clips. So everything that we do hip
hop is a culture. Right? So we're not
just extracting, like, music videos or lyrics.
We're also looking at, yeah, we're looking at
all five elements. So So we may bring
in movement. We may bring in,
you know, articles and, you know, TED Talks,
you know, from hip hop artists. And so
anything that's related to,
lifting up the culture but also has a
message
that's kinda centered around those five social emotional
learning competencies,
which are self awareness,
self management,
social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.
If I can extract the lesson that aligns
with one or more
of those five SEO competencies, and then
those are typically the the types of media
clips. I really like that. I really wanted
to,
I wanted to have you name that because
I think
there are there are other sort of content
creators and I'm not not bashing anybody. I
think anybody trying to do the right thing
for kids,
I think it should be uplifted.
But I think there's an authenticity
in the content that you put out there
in that it's also in other places. You're
having young people think about and discuss things
that can be found in a lot of
other places.
Just
just sort of as an aside, so I've
been attending the American Education Research Association's,
annual meeting. It's here in Denver this year.
And one literally one of the,
the
actually two of the sessions I sat in,
related
hip hop, raeton
solidarity
across,
across groups. And so there's some really amazing,
scholarly work. And I know you have some
scholars on your board as well, which is
really exciting. So I love that this is
a conversation that's happening.
I wanna move into
this next question around
so there's and obviously, we are living in
The United States Of America in in 2025
and so a lot of things are really,
under attack.
This idea of culturally responsive education. Right?
A lot of traditional SEL programs
just kind of fall flat with students of
color. Right? And this isn't my opinion or
your opinion specifically. This is what research tells
us. How is it that the approach you
take with we do it for the culture,
center culture and lived experiences
to make
this,
to make the SEL
imperative
of the work more impactful?
So I think,
I pray We Do It for the Culture
because a lot of the content that was
out there in order to teach those SEL
skills,
for a lack of a better word, they
were just boring.
Like, the feedback To use a technical term?
Like, that's the only word yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's the only word I could come up
with.
They they students were not engaged.
And
and what I noticed was that they would
may have had black and brown faces,
but they didn't really center the experiences
of those,
you know, characters or just people that they
put into the to the curriculum.
And then,
you know, young people are also
it's not a good thing, but a lot
of them
are leaning less towards, like,
animation and things of that nature, and they
just want the real. Like, this is what's
happening in my neighborhood. This is what I
could connect to. This is what I can
relate to.
And so,
I just felt like a lot of the
traditional programs were asking students to kinda regulate
their emotions were about really validating
what they were feeling or the why behind
it.
And if students can't connect to different scenarios
and connect that back to their lives,
then they're not going to apply
the information. And so
for us, it wasn't about adding,
you know, the cultural element as an afterthought.
Like, we wanted it to really be the
foundation.
You know, so, like, when students are listening
to, like, a Kendrick Lamar lyric or, you
know, they're watching a spoken word piece, and
then they're asking
to reflect on their own
resilience or times that they showed empathy
or, you know, any of those skills that
come up through the lyrics or through whatever
the media content is, then they're more likely
to feel connected to it. And it shows
that as the adult in the room or
the person that, is leading this work or
the facilitator,
it shows that they cared enough
to find content that students could relate to
or they would be interested
in. And so, you know, for us, culturally
responsive
education,
is about seeing the the entire Yeah. Human
experience.
And it's important that we're we're lifting that
up,
and we're not gonna shy away from it.
Like, despite everything that's happening,
you know, we're not diluting our content. If
anything, we're ramping up,
and we're going to ensure that,
you know, we've moved full steam ahead with
this work.
Because, again, I think it sends a really
bad message to young people
when we cowered,
from telling the truth
and when we cowered from,
making sure that their voices are heard. I
love hearing that. We'll get to what that
ramping up looks like in a moment. I'd
love to hear more about that. I have
a little bit of a follow-up. So in
our in an earlier conversation you and I
had, one of the comments
that that you made
was that it's not like
young people don't necessarily
refer to
this as hip hop culture and, like, that
kind of thing, that they have different ways
of naming the work Mhmm. Naming
the the culture
and Mhmm. The creative expression that goes into
it.
Tell us a little bit about Mhmm. What
the relationship is between school age children today
with what we know as hip hop. How
is it similar and different from previous generations
like like ours? Like, we we grew up
with hip hop. Hip hop is a sibling
to us.
How is it similar? How is it different?
I think it's similar in that hip hop
was always about lifting up whatever young people
were talking about in that moment in time.
So I think that's
still happening. It's just the how
may look a little different. Right? And it
may not be as technical. Right? But when
students make up a TikTok dance to go
with, you know, a song or affirmation or
what have you,
that's hip hop culture. Like, that's, you know,
making up, you know, something that you're going
to feel,
but then you're also teaching someone else to
do it, and it becomes a movement. Similar
to all the dancers that we looked up
to, scoop and scrap leg one, leg two,
like,
you know, I was in the mirror every
day trying to do exactly what they were
doing. It's the same thing today. We're just
doing it through the phone. Yeah. It's the
same thing. Right?
And,
you know, thinking about the messaging,
like, young people, Gen Zers are very in
tune with their emotions. Very in tune. Like,
very in tune. So, you know
yes.
And so, like, the fact that they're using
their platforms on social media or through their,
you know, music to talk about things like
depression and,
you know,
yeah, what people
are are in their circle, mental health. Like,
all those things, I think, are rooted in
what the culture is all about. Like I
said, the the connection is there. Like, the
the roots are there,
but
what you see may just look a little
different than from when we grew up. And
I think sometimes, like, especially the, like, hip
hop purest and people of our era have
to kinda just really get off of our
high horse because there are definitely times that,
you know, I was in a club singing
stuff that I should not have been singing
and had, you know, about experiences that I've
never had.
Across
all genres. Across all genres. Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
And and I didn't see anything,
you know, wrong with it. Now,
is some of the stuff now that I'm
an adult, do I look at it with
a different lens?
Absolutely.
Right? Like,
the one thing I will say is different
is that,
because of this machine
of capitalism
that's kinda taken over or tries to take
over the culture,
what our students may see in their algorithm
is, again, depending on what they're feeding their
algorithm,
may look very different. Right? So you may
get more drill. You may get more, you
know,
violence centered, drug centered,
but it's also
about what we're feeding it.
And so
that's why
kind of what we're doing, we do it
for the culture, is kind of that reverse
thinking,
to get students to see, okay. There's there's
deliberate content that's being sent to you. What
are you doing with that content?
Like, are you deciphering
the images in the content? Are you looking
at the lyrics? Are you understanding them?
And so that's I feel like that's where
adults come in. That's where teachers come in
to make sure that we're making meaning out
of the content that they're receiving.
Or
if it's being done
at a detriment, then we're talking to them
about, okay. Well, why do you think this
is the type of music that's being targeted
Yeah. To black and brown students? Right?
Like, you know, white kids in the suburbs
may be listening to it, but they don't
have any connection to it. Right? They don't
they don't have the experiences.
But some of us
may have the experiences,
and are we able to kinda decipher
reality from truth?
You know, the white kids in the suburbs
may be glorifying
those experiences,
but those experiences could be very real
for somebody
in another neighborhood. So,
not to say that white kids in the
suburbs
are dealing with some of those same issues,
substance abuse, violence.
Absolutely.
But
it's glorified and celebrated,
in a way that, again, for somebody else,
it may be their actual reality. So
I think that,
I think that today, a lot of those
elements of hip hop, the entrepreneurship
piece is still there.
Young people are super creative coming up with
different ways to get their stuff out there.
I still think again, the movement is still
there. The emceeing is still there.
I just started listening to this young man,
is it Akeem McHugh?
I think so. I yeah. I think Akeem
McHugh out of Florida.
And, oh my gosh. Like, I was like,
hip hop is not dead, folks. Like, it's
not. It just may not be
showing up in your algorithm
at the same rate as some other stuff.
No. But it's not And if it does
show up in your algorithm, it's not showing
up the way it did in 1992.
Right? Like, the like, there's other things to
it. Right. You've got me on this thing
now because I'm thinking about, particularly with TikTok,
like, almost like what a lot of young
people are creating.
Was it there's, like, a couple of different
so one of the most powerful things that
hip hop taught me and a lot of
the kids that I grew up with, in
my neighborhood on the East Side in Denver
was that if you have a message, you
can put it out there. All you need
is, like, a pen, a notebook, and your
voice, and and you put it out there.
And if you're putting wax stuff out there,
it's gonna get challenged.
Right? Somebody will challenge it, and I think
that's
probably the most important place I learned about
critical discourse before I knew what it was.
Right? That we would say and and I
got, like, sort of
scolded as an undergraduate
for
addressing classroom discussions in the same way that
I did when my friends and I were
debating something. Right? So I think about that
piece. I think about the
about
TikToks
and
the, you know, those stories that are posted
almost like these modern day mix tapes. Right?
Mhmm. Like, they're taking they're repurposing content sometimes
and applying it to a lesson that they
can just put out there. Mhmm. And, it
can be really, really powerful in that way.
Absolutely.
There's there's so many ways to flip it
and make the content
your own. Like, I just I got an
email today from
a
teacher from a Christian academy
in North Carolina
who's been using We Do It For The
Culture. And so they took one of our
lessons.
The latest one from Kendrick,
we say they're they not like me. So
it's a a whole lesson on just being
your unique self.
And, like, she emailed me to say she's
tying it to a few biblical,
verses
that
celebrate the importance of being unique and being
who, you know,
God created you to be. And I was
like, wow. Like I didn't even see that
coming.
Like,
I I didn't I did not see that
coming. You know? Who knew that, you know,
hip hop would make it this far? Like,
we're remixing Kendrick Kendrick
and
tying it to biblical verses, and she's using
it at a Christian academy. So the power
of storytelling
is is is universal.
Yeah. And that's what's hip hop does. It
allows for that those universal Yeah. Those I
have a follow-up, but it it also makes
me think of how,
like,
how particularly some of the Psalms in in
the bible,
they they have some very direct, blunt, sometimes
violent,
highly emotional imagery.
And so that connection makes sense. Mhmm.
I do have this question about,
kind of what it looks like, like how
often
you or others on your team
engage in the classroom. Like, what does that
look like?
Or is it mostly people using
the materials,
and that kind of thing?
Mainly, we train facilitators
to actually use we do it for the
culture and their schools.
However,
what we just started to do was to
start kinda do like this
world tour, so to speak,
where we're going to different cities, and we're
asking teachers to allow us to come in
and kinda see them in action.
And then we've been having,
focus groups with students to hear their feedback
on the lessons,
what's working, who are they listening to, who
should we include in the curriculum,
you know, just how are they engaging with
the content? And are they actually really thinking
about
those five SEL
competencies?
Are they starting to have more reflective moments
as a result of using the curriculum? Because,
you know, hip hop culture, all of that
is really the the anchor or the hook
or the conduit
to get them to really start to express
themselves,
and to share their stories.
And so we wanna make sure they're actually
applying
the skills that they learn
through the content and the media content, you
know, in their own personal lives. Way too
many spoilers. Y'all gotta sign up. You can
sign up for free. You can also subscribe
and pay.
But these five competencies with FCL, they're essentially
the same as if you look in any
SEL curriculum,
self awareness, self management, social awareness, responsible decision
making, and relationship
skills. Honestly, as an aside,
I would love to see some adults do
that. Do you do any adult work? Like,
because I'm kinda like, man. Oh, yes. We
do
too. We do. Especially since we're since, teachers
are the ones facilitating the lessons with students,
you know, we would love for it to
get to a point where they are actually
doing what, you know, doctor Emdin talks about
cogents. Like, we would love to see students
actually leading the work at some point. But
to start,
we have to make sure that the teachers
are ready to use We Do It for
the Culture. So a lot of that work,
comes in a form of adult SEL
practices
and helping them to be vulnerable. There's a
lot of teachers who are comfortable teaching content,
not necessarily
human beings.
And so we have to help them to,
you know, be vulnerable, share your story so
that you're creating spaces for students to be
their authentic selves.
And that's something a lot of adults struggle
with.
And because they struggle with it, then they're
less likely to build, like, deeper relationships with
their kids. So great. And, like, and, like,
I'm only half joking when I ask if,
like, there's training of of adults because I
think it's, you know, Paulo Freire talks about
this,
the reality of
the relationship between the teacher student and the
student teacher and that the roles are are
constantly
fluid. They're not sedentary. They're not set in
stone. Mhmm.
I'm curious
if you So I'm thinking about kind of
what this looks like IRL, right, in real
life.
Can you think of any
a story or a moment where
you were able to bear witness or, like,
receive a story of how we do it
for the culture made an impact in a
young person's life?
Yeah. We just
so
it's it's been,
really a priority for us to get schools
to send us videos because, again, we're we're
a small team.
We're in 15 states,
you know, over a 150 schools nationwide, so
it's really hard to, like, get out and
see them.
Yeah. So we've been, getting videos from some
of the schools that we're working with. And
one in particular, we work with a charter
network,
in Stockton, California,
the Aspire Schools. And,
we just got a video from a teacher
who's using
one of our lessons,
on
as a civics lesson.
And this lesson is all about the,
Rico case that Gunna
and,
YSL
were
a part of.
And so
for this particular lesson,
students were not listening to the lyrics from,
any of those artists. So I just wanna
center that.
But what they were doing
is,
looking at the debate between should lyrics be
used in the quarter block. Interesting.
And to
yeah. And so to hear students debate
whether or not that should be allowed
was really powerful.
And to hear students to to say things
like, you know, I never thought about it
from that way because, you know, I just
figure it's art. I'm just saying whatever, but
realizing that words do have,
you know, implications
based on
what you're saying.
And so to hear them really kinda dissect
this case,
was really interesting and really powerful.
And so the teacher did a really great
job,
you know, laying the foundation, but, also,
he was actually a facilitator, not a dictator.
He allow
the conversation
to flow. He didn't try to take over
the conversation.
And,
students has some really great connections
between
intention,
art,
and,
justice. Like, what does that look like?
And so that that really made me proud
because that's not an easy lesson to navigate,
and that teacher really did a great job
with, laying the foundation, just allowing the school
to start. Think,
what what I love about hearing that is
that
it you've got this
very culturally relevant and
rooted
curriculum. And then you have a teacher that
is trained,
who knows kind
of how how this is supposed to land,
be delivered,
the the sort of educator mindsets that are
required. And then they're able
to,
apply it in ways I can't even imagine
how many different ways you've seen,
We Do It For The Culture,
applied
and that are just so creative
and so imaginative. And then that piece about
Cogens, like, I I love
that there is
this this important role for young people to
play in sort of,
leading up. Right? So they're the ones traditionally
who are receiving all of the teaching, but
but they are positioned
to give teaching and give,
give their knowledge and their insights on these
things.
So I think you you've kind of touched
on this a bunch of different times, but
wanna give a chance to center this question
about,
about educators and buy in.
So
how do you so I understand there are
teachers that may not have a deep background
in hip hop culture. That's what I've heard.
I don't know if it's true. Hard to
imagine.
Mhmm. How do you support teachers who may
not
have that background? Like, what does it look
like to be trained in it? If they're
like, look, I did not grow up with
hip hop,
but I know that this curriculum looks incredible.
I know that the ideas
will land with my students. Like, how do
you support them to be successful
with We Do It For The Culture? Mhmm.
I start with the art of storytelling.
That's all hip hop is.
Storytelling
over a beat. Right? Like, we know, yes,
from a social,
aspect, there's a lot of conditions that fostered
Right. Hip hop culture. Right?
And that's important.
But when you drill it down
to what it really represents, it represents storytelling.
So I don't care what your social economic
background is. I don't care what your ethnicity
is. Unless you've been living under a rock,
you have us every human being
on this planet. And if you live under
a rock, there's probably a story behind it.
Period.
This Like, how did you get under this
rock? Get back to. Right? Like, do you
know how you got under the rock? You
might need to ask some questions. What did
you look under there? Right.
That's true. It's gotta be lonely. Right.
So everyone has a story, and and let's
start there.
And have you taken the time to get
to know your students well so that you
know their stories? And more importantly, have you
shared your story with them so that they
can see that you're human,
and they can relate to you in some
way, shape, or form. They may not be
able to relate to your upbringing
or any of that any of that nature,
but, you know, have you ever felt disrespected?
Have you ever
shown empathy? Have you ever been in a
situation where,
you know, you were bullied or you witnessed
bullying happening? Like,
let's stop pretending that, you know, there's, you
know, billions of people on this planet, but
you're living in isolation. Like, we all have
stories, and we all have come in contact
with other people.
But the problem is
we don't take the time to listen
to each other's stories, nor do we ask
questions that will yield
what's below the surface. We might ask surface
level questions.
So we really start there. We really just
drill it down to
storytelling,
asking
deeper questions.
And then we talk about the fact that
more than likely, as an educator, you've been
using some of these hip hop techniques in
your classroom, room, but you never labeled it
hip hop. Right? So if you've been doing
call and response, that's hip hop. If you
have been,
you know, providing opportunities
to to remix a lesson, asking students to
take this lesson that you created and put
their spin on it, that's hip hop. Like,
you know, that's just a DJ. Right? If
you think about who your students are and
what content is going to engage them or
how can you make this relevant to them,
That's hip hop. The DJ moves the crowd,
but you gotta know your audience in order
to move the crowd. Like, so we start
to drill down those five elements of hip
hop and what they look like in the
classroom,
and then they start to have these moments.
Like, oh, you know, I was being the
emcee, and I did pass the mic when
I did, you
know, you know, think, pay, or share. You
know? That was you Yeah. Passing the mic.
You know? So, like, all of these things
are already in you.
It's just a matter of, you know, making
sure that they come through
in your teaching practices. And so that's kinda
where we start. We don't even talk about,
you know,
hip hop in this in this pure state.
Right? We talk about the history of hip
hop and all that later. Yep. We just
want them to realize that a lot of
the things that they're doing
is really rooted in hip hop culture.
Being innovative, making a way out of no
way.
As teachers,
that that is the most hip hop,
thing you could do is make a way
out of no way. Right?
So
so let's tap into the things that they're
already familiar with, and then
we start to dive deeper into hip hop
culture,
connecting it to those five SEL competencies.
And by the way, if your future really
was trying to make a way out of
no way, check out our last episode, which
was with the CEO of DonorsChoose,
Alex Carrier, and he will tell you how
they can how they are working to try
to make sure that you have a way
to make a way.
So great. Well, I understand
what they're doing. And, you know, I this
is I kinda have this, like, intersection of
of hip hop education and DonorsChoose from when
I was in. I spent twenty three years
in the classroom. I don't teach anymore.
But one of the things that my students
wanted to do is they wanted to do
book clubs in our hip hop studies class.
And so I'm I just philosophically
don't believe in required reading. Like, I think
there are lots of books that you can
get the same lessons from. And so,
the students created a DonorsChoose,
where they're like, we're gonna we're gonna read
a book in this group and this is
a book we wanna read. And so they
had to defend it all Mhmm. Stuff. So
it's a Nice. Intersections.
For those of you listening on audio, I'm
grinning my face off. I almost wanna go
back and teach. Almost.
Almost.
Maybe not quite.
Okay. So one thing we know
about,
about hip hop,
it's in its fifties. It's like right around
our age, a little bit older,
and it continues
to evolve.
I I think the big thing I wanna
hear you talk about is where you see
this evolution kind of going in in hip
hop education
and where you
would like to see your work with We
Do It For The Culture
kind of, like, evolve and grow. What does
that look like kind of future facing? We
really want to,
secure partnerships
with larger organizations,
you know, companies, anybody that wants to get
a positive message out to students
because nine times out of 10, their content
is not landing.
You know, and so what can we do
to form partnerships with,
other entities to make sure that we're we're
kinda remixing their content so that it lands
well for
students in schools.
So that's something that we're working on. We're
also looking at, you know, hip hop is
universal. The four, and we do it for
the culture, stands for the four corners of
the earth because hip hop is universal.
So we are,
presenting at ASCD
in Ghana this summer.
And so
we're working with,
some students in Kenya and Nairobi,
and hopefully, at some point, we'll make, contact
with some youth organizations in Ghana.
But we're working with them to see, like,
how does Afrobeat and the music that you
all are listening to also trigger those emotions,
those five
students took to the streets,
you know, last year to
fight back against taxes on everyday,
household goods that they could already barely afford.
A lot of that was pushed by the
music that they were listening to to give
them that strength to to keep going.
And so we wanna look at it from
a global lens. So forming some global partnerships
around
hip hop culture,
is also, you know, really at the forefront
of our our work.
And then last but not least,
just making sure that teachers
remain
culturally responsive to the students that they're serving.
So, again, we're not dialing back anything.
We have to make sure that we're pushing
back against any executive orders or ideologies
that say
that every single student's experience is not, you
know, valid.
And we have to push back against the
erasure of, you know, black and brown history
in this country and in the world.
So we're going to continue to provide
professional development
to our subscribers and teachers who just want
to do better
in that area. So those are kinda like
the three ways that we're gonna ramp up,
the work that we're doing. And and, yeah,
just just keep going. That's right. That will
stop. It's just so beautiful to hear because
I'm sure that where you're at, just like
where I'm at, just like where a lot
of people are at, you have a lot
of really important people with a lot of
power and decision making power who are obeying
in advance.
Like, we are we're gonna go ahead and
roll things back so we don't get caught
in those things.
And, we we could take an entire
season of podcasting naming all of those folks.
And so the, the resolve,
to ramp up is like, no, we're we're
gonna be more now. We have to be
more. It requires more.
One one of the things that really resonates
with me, and this will be our last
question before we do the bonus, the fun
part.
One of the things that always sits with
me is as an individual of color,
I grew up
in in in a neighborhood in Denver, Colorado
that at one time was referred to as
Harlem Of The West. So the history
of black and brown history, like, the the
presence of black and brown history in my
neighborhood is really powerful. And so
as I look at
the materials
on We Do It For, the number four,
theculture.com,
and I look at kind of the trajectory
of hip hop education.
As an educator of color, I feel
so seen and so
just it just jives with everything.
How
how have you seen We Do It For
The Culture support and empower educators of color,
in their work with students?
It gives
them freedom, this license to just be their
authentic selves. It's a beautiful thing to see
when they're they're like, oh, like, oh, I
could rock with this. Like, I get this,
and and they just run with it. Right?
They get excited. And I think
not only is a lot of curriculum that's
in schools, but it's just it's just boring
for the adults.
Bored for teachers too.
Can confirm.
Yes.
So, like, if I'm bored, like, I'm just
that energy is just being, you know, you
know, reflected upon the students that I'm serving.
So,
you know,
they actually
love it. They they like to you know,
sometimes they'll push back like, oh, why'd you
use this video instead of this video? Or
did you you know? And so I I
welcome
all of that.
I think it's really important to to have
those conversations.
And then a lot of times, like, I
was an administrator in school for for years,
and
I always just felt like,
you know, I was the, you know, I
was a firefighter. Right. Right? You know? I
was an assistant principal. I'm constantly putting out
fires.
And,
when I was putting out those fires, when
students came to my office,
then I could, like, have what I like
to call real talk with them. And, like,
that's where I found out these are some
of the things that they're experiencing. These are
some things they wanna talk about. This is
what was happening in class. And so my
relationship with
my students was very different than
those same teachers that would kinda kick them
out the class and not take the time
to get to know them or,
you know, kinda see past that, you know,
exterior.
And so I think for teachers that
grew up in a hip hop era that
embrace hip hop culture,
that they they feel seen, heard,
and valued.
And, I mean, we know right now 85%
of the teaching workforce is young, white, and
female.
So I think it's also dope as we
continue to to do this work and travel
to see how hip hop has influenced
some of them. Like, I've been in rooms
where
I wasn't expecting,
you know, them to share, like, this is
my favorite hip hop artist, and this is
a lyric that stands out to me.
And so I'm learning not to make assumptions
as well,
and and really give hip hop the the
respect and power that it deserves. It's hitting
more people,
that we probably even Right. Realize. So,
but to know that people that look like
me or people that look like you are,
you know,
identifying
with it and and rolling with it and
Yeah. Making it their own,
that just really brings me joy. It's just
it's just so inspirational. And I think I
think so much of
the the response that I didn't anticipate from
you was it gives
educators of color a chance to be themselves,
to be ourselves.
And I think that
that that's been at the root of my
dissertation work has been just kind of how
we create
sustaining humanizing environments for first year educators of
color because
if we can't affirm them in year one,
it's not gonna get better in year two.
Right? That we'll find a way to survive.
Yeah. The the the cause and effect Jay
Cole collaboration, not not the hustle
hits with me in a lot of ways
because it's about surviving despite Mhmm. The discomfort
it causes. But Mhmm. That that idea of
educators
of color being able to be themselves is
is just really, really powerful. And it makes
me think of
when I was so I taught too many
classes at my small high school. But at
the beginning of the t the day I
taught advanced placement world history, which I loved.
I love teaching world history.
AP,
no. No. No. That's fine.
And then at the end of the day,
I was allowed to create a hip hop
studies class.
And I had a student who was in
both of those classes. Like, she would she
took my AP class in the morning Mhmm.
And my
my hip hop class at the end of
the day. And I remember her asking me
kind of mischievously, she's like, Munoz, I noticed
that you're different in the morning than the
afternoon.
And I was like
I was like, oh, is it a bad
thing? She's like,
no. Because I feel different too.
And it was just one of those things
where Yeah. And, you know, and this is
a I'm working on a piece for my
substack around this, but how teaching a hip
hop studies class
taught me more
about
co learning and co creating and democratizing the
educational space and anything else I ever taught.
And I ended up becoming really passionate Yeah.
On student voice and leadership.
And a lot of it was because
all of those barriers that you kinda talked
about, the the barriers
of vulnerability
avoidance,
the barriers of power that a lot of
teachers, myself included, have historically, like, subscribed to.
Mhmm. They just they just get disrupted when
you're taught when you're teaching in a hip
hop way. Yeah.
And I think that's beautiful.
Man, incredible work Yeah.
That you all are doing.
Yeah. Thank you. You you as well. You
as well. I mean, teacher of the year.
That's Thank you. That's a huge accomplishment. Yeah.
They didn't They
didn't hassle to you. They didn't expect that.
I'll tell you that.
So,
alright. We're gonna get to the,
maybe one of our favorite things
to, to talk about on two Dope Teachers
in a Mic. Now Kevin usually gets the
honors. Obviously,
the name of the podcast is derived from
hip hop with two Dope Teachers and a
mic.
And,
we both we're both really passionate about,
about music and the ability
of music to,
to help us express,
heal,
ponder, although reflect all those kinds of things.
So
we would like to ask you the most
dangerous question in hip hop,
which is
who are your top five rappers? I understand
you may have an you may have an
adaptation of this question, and I'll I'll let
you center that in a second. But I'll
I'll give you the ground rules. The rule
number one is that it is not static.
This is dynamic. So if somebody comes at
you in the streets and says, hey, wait
a minute. You were on the two dope
teachers and my podcast and you said this,
you are fully allowed and we will Mhmm.
We will double stamp it to say, that
was just a moment, like, that like in
different moments I feel different. Right. Right. Rule
number two
is that it does not have to be
hierarchical. So it doesn't have to be fifth
best, fourth best, third best, second best best.
We understand that hierarchies are white supremacy. They
are capitalism.
And,
and so it can just be your favorite
five.
There's also the Eric Hale Yep. Eric Hale,
2021 Texas teacher of the year who came
on here and he said, well, okay, I
got a four way tie for fifth, and
I got a six way tie for fourth,
and I got and and I swear all
he wanted to do was name all the
rappers he liked. And so
the Eric Hale rule is in full effect.
You can have ties, you can have multiples.
And then the final rule
oh, yeah. I like that. Oh, yeah. She's
like, wait. Oh, wait. I I I'm rethinking
this now. And then the final rule is
that,
a collective does not have to be broken
apart.
So if you wanted to put Wu Tang
Clan as one, they can count as one
even though there are 75 members of Wu
Tang. So,
so do those rules make sense to you?
Uh-huh.
Absolutely. Ultimately.
Absolutely. And I and I and I'm appreciative
of,
some, flexibility
and some grace with this because it is
a very controversial,
you know. And just for good measure, just
so you're not the one being put on
the last year, I will give my current
top five afterwards. So,
you also had an idea for doing this
a little bit differently. Would you like to
take it your way, or are you just
gonna go your top five? No. Top five
is fine. I think you're talking about when
we ask this question,
when we do trainings and when we're when
we're meeting with people out on the streets.
Yeah. So we have a question that we
ask,
and it's just really a question to, again,
get below the surface of just like, hey.
How are you? Who's your favorite MC? Right?
So we ask questions like,
which,
hip hop track brings you joy? So we
try to connect it to one of the
five SEL competencies,
or we may ask a question like, which
hip hop track will be the featured track
on your life mixtape?
So think about however many lives one of
your trainings.
Years you've been on this planet.
Yeah. Not lives, but how many years you've
been on this, planet. I mean, I was
gonna say if you if you remember that,
if, hey, you're getting better. Yeah. Yeah.
Then,
you know, what would that track be? And
it it should really kinda
encompass that moment in time in your life.
So it gets people to think. You know?
Sometimes it's nostalgic. I mean, there's been times
we've literally had people crying
answering that question because maybe there was a
track that got them through a difficult time.
So, so that's, you know, that's something that
we ask just
to kinda break the ice, but more importantly,
to get people comfortable
being vulnerable and telling their story. But
to be,
to answer your question in the traditional sense,
my five and they're on a t shirt,
so I can't really, unless I ordered a
new t shirt, I can't believe. Yeah. It's
like it. Sorry. It's it's it's the first
thing through my T shirt. This is just
how it is. Alright. You are five.
This is
alright. In no particular order,
Rakim
lays the foundation.
For me, just Rakim is everything with the
storytelling, the imagery, and just the fact that
he has never used profanity.
Right. Like,
just that
that for me,
just growing up and being able to listen
to Rakim openly with my parents. Wow. Like
I've forgotten about it. Was dope. Yeah. Like
yeah.
Yeah. And it still hits just as hard,
but he doesn't have to use profanity.
Yep. Andrei Andrei comes up on a lot
of our books. His wordplay
yeah. Yeah. His his wordplay is like no
other. The storytelling
is like no other for me, and you
can you can literally see,
you know, whatever story he's telling, like, the
imagery behind it. It's just Oh, yeah. Oh,
yeah. He's he's just phenomenal.
I'm I'm mad about the flu only because
I just want to hear him rhyme some
more. I I respect the flu. Nothing against
the flu. You know? The yeah. I respect,
yeah, I respect the flute, but I would
prefer some bars. Alright?
If you listen to me I'm sure Andre,
listen to me. Please.
Jamila, I'm gonna need some bars from you.
Yes. Yes.
Let's see. Next,
I would say Lauryn Hill.
For me, again, it's not about how many
albums you've had or what time you show
up to the show.
Her lyrics,
her wordplay, her,
you know, story to all all of that
is what does it for me.
She does. It gets you to And I
love how she moves
in and out of a range of emotions
across all of her albums. Like, so you
can like, their tracks of hers. Mhmm. Like,
everything is everything, like, hits with me in
one way. But but to Zion hits in
a different way because she can be
intellectual, combative,
tender Mhmm. Like, yeah. Lord Lord Hill is
phenomenal.
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
This one gets pushed back I mean, it
wouldn't be a top five if it wasn't
controversial. Right? But yeah.
Right.
Right. But I don't care. I absolutely love
him, and this is You know what? Space.
So I couldn't say the whole wolf,
but
Ghost is my favorite
for many reasons. One, his metaphors and similes
are like the lyricists. Outrageous. Yep. Two,
he
he will the storytelling is crazy.
All is that all that I got is
you. I literally can see the whole thing
in my mind.
When I think about
the fact that he just doesn't care,
he'll have That's right. Liberation
on the track. People
and people will literally be whole trying to
figure out What's what's
the secret thing? Like, you know, you know,
straw strawberry,
kiwi Yeah. Baked ziti. I do see the
connection.
You know? Because MF Doom will just throw
it out there. About it. Yeah. But he
yeah. Go Ghostface is cold. I'm not gonna
lie.
Yeah.
And so he literally has people racking their
brain around lyrics that he
made up.
So I just think that's genius in itself
and the fact that he is,
constantly,
constantly
evolving.
And I think he is he's also has
so many different brands with the coffee. Oh,
yeah. You know, you name it. Like, he
just keeps reinventing himself.
And then,
I'm from Philly
originally,
so
I gotta go with Black Thought. Just when
you really like,
out of all of them,
the person that's gonna make me
like, oh, let me pick up that book
or let me research that author or let
me go back and listen to that or,
you know, that line in, you know,
you know, a poem from, you know, Audrey
Lorde. I don't know. Like,
he would just bring it all together
and and really make you fake, you know,
without a dictionary Yeah. Exactly. Stars.
You know?
But, you know, and and he can rock
with anybody.
And so Black Thought, definitely. And then my
my honorable
mention. Pair.
My honorable mentions would be Jay z and
Nas.
I love Nas. Like, this is where like,
I'm excited for the new,
out in me as with Premiere because I
feel like that's where my Nas
love has been
compromised, I guess. I love him. Yeah. I
love him. Don't get me wrong.
But I I need the
he he he hasn't been with Premier in
a while. I need that. I need that.
The nation is excited about that without a
doubt. Yeah. I love that. And I don't
like I I feel like Jay z and
Ghostface, like, one of the things I love
about both of them is that they'll play
with you. Like, they'll just play with you
in their in their lyrics and kind of,
like,
tease you and challenge you,
to make sense of things, and they don't
feel any obligation to make sense of it
for you.
I
this top five is a boy.
Love this. So,
those of you who,
listen to the podcast on,
on our Spotify and Apple platforms,
you'll be able to click a link,
where,
we will curate some songs from these,
from these artists. So it's gonna be so
it'll be the playlist that goes along with
this. I'm gonna drop my top five real
quick, but I'm not gonna take up a
lot of space with it. So currently my
top five, and this is current, I'm I'm
so fluid in and out of my top
five.
Rakim is my honorable mention because he's always
there. Like Rakim, as I shared earlier,
was the person that gave me an inkling
that this Chicanito with a stutter could actually
learn to speak in a weird in a
way that was clear.
So I'll always owe that to Rakim. But
my top five currently,
Residente,
the,
Puerto Rican rapper.
Love
what he does in Spanglish. Love what he
and his brother and sister do together.
Really amazing stuff. I've been listening to El
Agwante in Latino America
a lot lately.
The indigenous rapper, Narcy,
he appears on a track with Yacine Bey
and with a trot with, hallucination,
called r e d, and it's like this
incredible electric beat
mixed over powwow drumming,
and it's just
wicked.
So good.
J Cole. I just love J Cole storytelling,
and I love
the I love that so many of his
stories come from the heart.
And some of the stuff I've been listening
to is it just feels so real. MC
Lyte's always there. I think about this because
anytime an MC Lyte come attracts on when
I shuffle my music, I don't
skip. And I just Mhmm. I love that
for her enunciation.
I love
the cadence and the rhythm. It's just like
she's just taking you on a ride. And
then my last one that I'm super into
right now is, the British Palestinian rapper, Shadia
Mansour.
She did a track with,
the Chilean
rapper, Ana Tiju,
called
Somosur,
We Are the South. And it's this anthem
for the global majority,
and for the southernized people. So just,
you know, a little bit of resistance in
a lot of that music. I love it.
I'll send them to you. Yeah. It's so
good. It's so good. I, you know, I
taught in an international
international studies school. Yeah. And, and my students
who are mostly black and brown kids, when
they got a chance to travel, whether in
the country or out of the country, they
would always bring me music.
Like, they'll bring me hip hop music from
that country. Mhmm. So I have, like, I
have, like, a CD and a rapper. No
idea what he's saying. But he's got skills.
That's how I discovered FC Sola from Paris,
you know, and some good stuff. But Okay.
Anyway, I could talk about hip hop all
night.
Jamila saying Me too. This was such a
fun conversation. I feel so honored that you
came on to do teachers in a mic
today. Thank you for
for just you have me. Wonderful conversations. We
should do this again. Absolutely. Because hip hop
is always evolving. So we probably have a
million other things to talk about at any
given moment. But, I really appreciate How do
you love?
Of this opportunity. How do people,
support you and follow you? Yes. The website
is www.wedoit,thenumberfour,theculture.com.
We are also on Instagram
at s e l four
the culture.
If you can, go to the website, you
can also create a free account, engage with
the lessons,
and, you know, reach out to us if
you would like to explore more. Well, folks,
for,
Kevin Adams, who is gonna be so sad
that he missed this conversation,
for Jamila Sams, founder
of We Do It For The Culture, a
hip hop SEL curriculum,
I am your Elosopher King, Gerardo Munoz,
inviting you all oh, yeah. I forgot to
tell you. So the way we, take out
the show is I'll say a bunch of
stuff, and then I'll signal to you, and
we will say stay known together.
So,
I am asking you we are asking you
to stay ramping up, stay making those mix
tapes on social media,
stay engaging young people in the classroom, stay
stay storytelling,
stay making a way out of no way
and above and beyond. Make sure that you
always
stay
dope.