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Attention dedicated educators.

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As the school year kicks off, now is

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the perfect time to take control of your

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financial future.

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That's why I wanna introduce you to a

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trusted financial advisor who specializes in working with

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Meet Alex Sierra, a certified financial planner with

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Cetera Investors.

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Alex provides educators with planning for their most

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important financial decisions. He has a deep understanding

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of the important strategies related to teachers and

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our retirement.

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The school pension system and retirement systems that

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are especially made for teachers.

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By taking the time to go and work

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with Alex, you can lay a solid foundation

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for your financial goals and secure

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a brighter future. Don't let the busyness of

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the school year hold you back from achieving

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your financial dreams.

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Visit Alex's website at www.torianalex.cetera,

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ceterainvestors.com/

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2dope, t o o d o p e.

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Make sure you spell that out. To schedule

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consultation.

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And here's the best part, if you mention

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the discount code 2dope, during your first consultation,

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you will receive a 25%

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off discount on their subscription

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based subscription based

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financial planning packages.

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Click the link in the description

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section of this podcast for more information about

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Alex and Cetera investors. You can also find

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information about their great work for educators,

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at tudopeachers.com,

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as well as on our Patreon page.

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Remember,

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your financial success is just as important as

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your student success. So start putting together your

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financial

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plan today.

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Cetera Investors is the marketing name of Cetera

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Investment Services. Securities and insurance products are offered

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through Cetera Investment Services, LLC

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doing insurance business in California as CFGSTC

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Insurance Agency,

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LLC.

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Member,

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finra/sipc.

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Advisory services are offered through Cetera Investment Advisors,

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LLC,

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California

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insurance license number

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0 l05650.

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Alexander Sierra, CFP,

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is located at 155

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North Lake Avenue, Suite 430,

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Pasadena,

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California, 91101

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and can be reached at phone number 626-408-1333,

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extension

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306.

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Hey, yo. What it do?

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2 Dope Nation.

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What's happening?

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I'm back with you. Welcome back to 2

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Dope Teachers and,

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Mike.

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I'm here with you, like I'm always here

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with you

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to talk a little bit about race, power,

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and education.

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If you are new to the show, welcome.

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Welcome to 2 Dope Nation.

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There is a piece about how 2 Dope

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Nation supports open borders.

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Basically, dopeness does not have a specific

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citizenship

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because what we do is we welcome citizens

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of the world. Does that make me a

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globalist?

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Does that make me one of those people?

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In fact, it does because I think the

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globe is a place that I live

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and that as a person who lives in

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the globe, I should maybe try to act

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accordingly.

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Welcome back to the most dangerous podcast in

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the schoolhouse.

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As I said before, my name is Gerardo

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Munoz,

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and I am here to bring you some

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stories

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from the 2 Dope nation of education.

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Today, we got a goodie for you. Be

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but before we get into it,

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you can always find us on social media

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at 2 Dope Teachers on Instagram,

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on X formerly known as

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Twitter, as well

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as on facebook.com/2Dopedeachersandamike.

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You can also email us, 2Dopedeachers@gmail.com

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if you have show ideas or

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just wanna give us some feedback.

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But we are always happy to bring you

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these stories that remix the conversation on race,

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power,

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and

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education.

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If you are really excited about what we

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do over here in 2dope nation and excited

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enough to give us, I don't know, $5

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a month? Like, $5 a month. What can

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you get for $5 a month anymore? Barely

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anything. But what you can get for $5

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a month

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is

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instant

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access to certain materials that we give,

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low key

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communication and conversation,

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with us and, you know, some previews on

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some of the changes that are happening in

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2DOPE nation as we kinda speak.

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I wanna talk a little bit about election

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season today. And today, we we just have

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this guest that I'm just really amped to

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bring to you.

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We are going to be bringing you

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the 1 and only

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Josh

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Cowan.

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Doctor Josh Cowan wrote a book called The

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Privateers, How Billionaires

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Created a Culture War and Sold School Vouchers.

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And, man, I gotta tell you, this book

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is fire,

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and you need to check it out.

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Really, you know, this is such a pressing

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issue right now. Even in the state of

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Colorado where 2 Dope Teachers and a Mic

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is coming at you from,

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there are

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voucher resolutions on the November ballot. And make

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no mistake y'all, like, if you don't listen

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to anything else in this podcast and you

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need to, you need to understand that vouchers

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have had a negative impact on student achievement,

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and that is across

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all measures, all political stripes,

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doesn't matter who you ask, the data,

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speaks for itself. In this conversation,

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doctor Cowen and I talk a little bit

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about the sort of the end game of

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the voucher movement, which is an extension of

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of the privatization movement. And I just wanna

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make it really clear. Privatization

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is any means of introducing private money into

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public education,

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and creating

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that franken system

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that

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we are pretending is not harmful to the

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rest of education. I know I'm gonna upset

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some people when I say this and just

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know folks, for those of you who are

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a little bit more reform minded, a little

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bit more charter friendly,

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a little bit more amenable

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to some of the

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the tricks and tropes of privatization,

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know that I still love you. I will

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always love you, but this is a place

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where we probably

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will not agree.

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Vouchers was actually part of my first,

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education from my mother, a public a retired

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public school teacher

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on the social justice imperative

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of of public education.

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Vouchers are private monies,

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I'm sorry. Vouchers are public monies

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that are diverted

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to allow kids the opportunity to attend private

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school and this is a fraud issue that

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you can read up on on a bunch

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of different things. In fact, I was just

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actually listening to,

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to another podcast, the Have You Heard podcast.

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You should check it out.

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When they're talking a little bit about some

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of the declining,

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enrollment issues

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and

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possible school closures across the state.

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The vouchers conversation

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offers us a lot to understand about that.

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But we've got this really great

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conversation coming

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with,

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with doctor Cowan. He's a professor in Michigan

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who has written this book. And it's a

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book he says he didn't wanna write because

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what he's reporting, first of all, is not

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good news for those of us who are

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champions of public education.

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And in addition to that, he even admitted

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himself that this is gonna cost him some

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friendships.

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And I think if you're gonna plant your

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flag somewhere, this is probably a place to

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do that.

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And so it's just really important that we

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kinda check this out. Some of the, topics

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of this show,

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first of all,

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we talk a little bit about how his

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research,

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led him to school vouchers. His initial research

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didn't actually

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start with research of vouchers. He was actually

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examining broader inequities in education

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and

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his research naturally led him to this place.

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He also talks a lot about these manufactured

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culture wars and,

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Christian nationalism

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as being an extremely important part of this.

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So the role of these think tanks, right

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wing politics.

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Yeah. We're talking about all of the usual

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suspects of the voucher lobby, the Heritage Foundation,

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Betsy DeVos, the Koch brothers, all these people.

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He's gonna talk a lot about

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how these organizations,

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have unapologetically

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promoted

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bad,

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policy and bad ideas for education reform,

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knowing that it's not good for kids and

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knowing especially it's not good for the kids

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that it claims to serve. We We also

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talk a little bit about school choice and

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public education and how these debates,

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that have led to these culture wars,

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are are taking shape and how they're a

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part of the voucher movement. And for those

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of you who don't know, I had the

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the pleasure with 4 fellow state teachers of

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the year

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to do a fellowship around this notion of

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honest education,

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to combat some of this harmful culture war

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rhetoric that just seems to have ratcheted up

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more,

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even as popularity

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for this rhetoric declines.

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And we know this is true.

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And then the relationship or non relationship between

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vouchers and academic performance,

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parent preferences,

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and then actual quality of

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research,

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sorry, of,

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of voucher schools and the type of education

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that,

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is not happening at these places.

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Really what we're looking at,

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in this conversation is this threat of

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privatization and what it means for kids,

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who really do rely on a quality public

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education to have,

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options in life and options going forward.

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This this is part of kind of a

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series that we're doing. You know, it's it's

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October when you're hearing this. We're a few

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weeks away from a very consequential election, not

281
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just the top of the ballot, but looking

282
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at some of the statewide issues that are

283
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happening, not just in Colorado, but in other

284
00:11:06,955 --> 00:11:07,455
states.

285
00:11:08,075 --> 00:11:10,334
A number of other states have either enacted

286
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or put vouchers on the ballot,

287
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and

288
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these are things that are being cloaked in

289
00:11:17,274 --> 00:11:18,815
the notion of school choice

290
00:11:19,179 --> 00:11:21,179
and built on a lot of mythology that

291
00:11:21,179 --> 00:11:22,080
doctor Cowan

292
00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:22,960
emphasizes.

293
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We know

294
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that an educated populace

295
00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:29,360
is a free populace

296
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and it's critical that we start understanding

297
00:11:33,375 --> 00:11:35,294
how that plays out when we go to

298
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the polls,

299
00:11:36,815 --> 00:11:39,534
this fall. Now I imagine that I don't

300
00:11:39,534 --> 00:11:42,254
have a lot of pro voucher folks in

301
00:11:42,254 --> 00:11:43,955
2DOPE nation over here.

302
00:11:44,575 --> 00:11:46,174
And and, you know, if you are, you

303
00:11:46,174 --> 00:11:47,955
feel free to engage.

304
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:50,790
The data is pretty clear though that that

305
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:52,570
doctor Callan shares with us.

306
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:55,910
So it's not enough to say to you

307
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:59,029
to vote against these resolutions that are happening

308
00:11:59,029 --> 00:12:00,570
in Colorado and beyond,

309
00:12:00,904 --> 00:12:02,904
But we've gotta really get the word out

310
00:12:02,904 --> 00:12:04,985
and really talk to people and use our

311
00:12:04,985 --> 00:12:05,485
platforms

312
00:12:06,184 --> 00:12:06,924
to really,

313
00:12:07,785 --> 00:12:09,865
really show how harmful this is to our

314
00:12:09,865 --> 00:12:10,365
democracy.

315
00:12:10,985 --> 00:12:12,684
There's gonna be some calls for action.

316
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,519
Definitely go get the book. And if enough

317
00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:16,360
of you are interested, hit us up over

318
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,200
here. We'll do a book study of the

319
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:18,700
privateers.

320
00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:22,279
So I hope you enjoy this episode as

321
00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:24,620
much I as I enjoyed doing the interview.

322
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,340
Here we are with doctor Josh Cowan discussing

323
00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:28,714
his book, The Privateers,

324
00:12:29,174 --> 00:12:33,434
How Billionaires Created a Culture War and Sold

325
00:12:33,654 --> 00:12:37,194
School Vouchers, right here on 2 Dope Teachers

326
00:12:37,254 --> 00:12:38,235
and a Mic.

327
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:29,860
Hey. Yo. What's going on everybody?

328
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,720
As promised, I am here with doctor Joshua

329
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,799
Cowan, author of the privateers, how billionaires created

330
00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:40,240
a culture war and stole and stole. Wow.

331
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,899
That's a Freudian slip. Sold school vouchers.

332
00:13:43,995 --> 00:13:45,754
Josh, how are you doing? Good. How are

333
00:13:45,754 --> 00:13:47,595
you doing? Thanks for having me. Yeah, man.

334
00:13:47,595 --> 00:13:49,754
Thanks for being here. I'm so excited to

335
00:13:49,754 --> 00:13:51,355
get a chance to speak with you about

336
00:13:51,355 --> 00:13:53,514
this book. I have finished it since our

337
00:13:53,514 --> 00:13:56,394
last conversation, and Right. It's just an incredible

338
00:13:56,394 --> 00:13:56,954
book. And so,

339
00:13:57,950 --> 00:13:59,710
I love doing book talks on 2 Dope

340
00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:00,769
teachers and a mic.

341
00:14:01,389 --> 00:14:01,889
We,

342
00:14:02,429 --> 00:14:04,350
you know, not gonna give away spoilers. Y'all

343
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:05,790
gotta go out there and invest in this

344
00:14:05,790 --> 00:14:08,029
book because in in our opinion here at

345
00:14:08,029 --> 00:14:10,424
2 Dope Productions, an investment in this book

346
00:14:10,504 --> 00:14:13,725
is an investment in public education and in

347
00:14:13,945 --> 00:14:15,164
democracy. So,

348
00:14:15,544 --> 00:14:16,524
the book is titled,

349
00:14:16,825 --> 00:14:17,565
The Privateers,

350
00:14:18,345 --> 00:14:20,904
How Billionaires Created a Culture War and Sold

351
00:14:20,904 --> 00:14:21,404
School

352
00:14:21,784 --> 00:14:22,284
Vouchers.

353
00:14:22,985 --> 00:14:25,539
I wanna start off just with a quick

354
00:14:25,539 --> 00:14:27,940
question on how it was at UP you

355
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:30,759
became interested in researching school vouchers?

356
00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:34,100
Great question. So I've been studying school vouchers

357
00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:36,339
for almost 20 years, both first as a

358
00:14:36,339 --> 00:14:37,079
young researcher,

359
00:14:37,779 --> 00:14:40,815
a junior member of a larger evaluation team,

360
00:14:40,815 --> 00:14:43,375
and then increasingly as I sort of moved

361
00:14:43,375 --> 00:14:45,774
up in the in the academic, the research,

362
00:14:45,774 --> 00:14:46,355
and the

363
00:14:46,735 --> 00:14:47,235
evaluation

364
00:14:47,615 --> 00:14:48,115
profession,

365
00:14:48,735 --> 00:14:50,975
increasingly sort of with teams that I helped

366
00:14:50,975 --> 00:14:51,570
to direct,

367
00:14:52,049 --> 00:14:53,410
as well as a bunch of other school

368
00:14:53,410 --> 00:14:54,950
choice options and other education,

369
00:14:55,809 --> 00:14:58,289
initiatives in general. I'm a policy analyst by

370
00:14:58,289 --> 00:15:01,009
training, which means that I have historically sort

371
00:15:01,009 --> 00:15:03,730
of been curious about questions that ask, do

372
00:15:03,730 --> 00:15:05,855
these public policies work? And if so, for

373
00:15:05,855 --> 00:15:07,534
whom? If not, who do they not work

374
00:15:07,534 --> 00:15:10,414
for? And and why in any case? And,

375
00:15:10,735 --> 00:15:12,574
vouchers were the first area that I really

376
00:15:12,574 --> 00:15:14,254
sort of started to ask those questions or

377
00:15:14,254 --> 00:15:16,014
be part of team to ask those questions.

378
00:15:16,014 --> 00:15:16,174
And,

379
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,000
you know, so I've been I've been drawn

380
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:19,500
to

381
00:15:19,959 --> 00:15:22,620
any controversial topic in in education

382
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:23,320
that,

383
00:15:23,959 --> 00:15:26,360
that that needs more data and more evidence

384
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,839
to inform it, and and certainly vouchers. Well,

385
00:15:28,839 --> 00:15:31,320
now we know vouchers really, do hurt kids

386
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,264
and families. But Yeah. In 20 years ago,

387
00:15:34,264 --> 00:15:35,644
you know, there's there still,

388
00:15:36,264 --> 00:15:37,705
was was an open question, at least as

389
00:15:37,705 --> 00:15:39,305
far as the data were concerned. So that's

390
00:15:39,305 --> 00:15:41,225
what initially brought me into the to the

391
00:15:41,225 --> 00:15:41,725
conversation.

392
00:15:42,105 --> 00:15:44,264
Yeah. I think it's a really interesting distinction

393
00:15:44,264 --> 00:15:45,485
that you draw between

394
00:15:45,865 --> 00:15:47,085
what the data says,

395
00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:49,570
that in terms of the data, what I'm

396
00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:51,009
hearing you say is that this is kind

397
00:15:51,009 --> 00:15:53,330
of a closed case as to whether vouchers

398
00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:55,730
are good for kids. At this point, yeah.

399
00:15:55,730 --> 00:15:57,350
Yeah. And you're also indicating

400
00:15:58,049 --> 00:15:59,830
that there may be another part

401
00:16:00,355 --> 00:16:01,254
to that,

402
00:16:01,795 --> 00:16:04,995
to the ongoing topic of conversation. So can

403
00:16:04,995 --> 00:16:06,835
you start off by kinda telling us a

404
00:16:06,835 --> 00:16:09,875
little bit of what it is in the

405
00:16:09,875 --> 00:16:12,054
data that you have found?

406
00:16:12,434 --> 00:16:13,795
And I think you told me I could

407
00:16:13,795 --> 00:16:15,179
be wrong about this. I think you told

408
00:16:15,179 --> 00:16:17,840
me that initially, you didn't set out specifically

409
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:22,540
to research vouchers that this other evaluation work

410
00:16:22,540 --> 00:16:25,040
that you were doing, this policy analysis eventually

411
00:16:25,179 --> 00:16:27,259
led you to vouchers. Am I remembering that

412
00:16:27,259 --> 00:16:27,759
correctly?

413
00:16:28,085 --> 00:16:29,605
I mean, as a yeah. Yeah. As a

414
00:16:29,605 --> 00:16:30,345
as a

415
00:16:31,044 --> 00:16:34,164
the origin story for my young, graduate school

416
00:16:34,164 --> 00:16:36,004
days is probably not worth getting into, but,

417
00:16:36,004 --> 00:16:38,004
you know, I I joined I I joined

418
00:16:38,164 --> 00:16:40,004
Never is. I write about that I that

419
00:16:40,004 --> 00:16:41,285
I wrote about in the book that kind

420
00:16:41,285 --> 00:16:44,549
of, you know, were interested in vouchers specifically

421
00:16:44,689 --> 00:16:47,169
in demonstrating how these these vouchers schemes could

422
00:16:47,169 --> 00:16:48,689
work. And I, you know, I I,

423
00:16:50,129 --> 00:16:51,730
was part of some of those teams and

424
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:53,809
then moved on to other questions and continue

425
00:16:53,809 --> 00:16:55,250
to kind of keep an interest in school

426
00:16:55,250 --> 00:16:57,169
choice evaluation research, and I've been part of

427
00:16:57,169 --> 00:16:59,134
that really up to the present day.

428
00:17:00,954 --> 00:17:01,454
But

429
00:17:01,754 --> 00:17:03,214
the important thing to sort of

430
00:17:03,674 --> 00:17:05,294
get here is that

431
00:17:05,755 --> 00:17:07,454
is that at this point,

432
00:17:08,554 --> 00:17:09,275
what we've

433
00:17:09,674 --> 00:17:11,035
and it's not just me. I mean, listen.

434
00:17:11,035 --> 00:17:13,035
There have been a number of great research

435
00:17:13,035 --> 00:17:15,650
teams that have been asking these questions specifically

436
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:16,210
around

437
00:17:16,509 --> 00:17:17,890
how how vouchers improve

438
00:17:18,589 --> 00:17:20,289
or negatively impact academics.

439
00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:23,470
One of the things that makes the Evidence

440
00:17:23,470 --> 00:17:25,630
case against school vouchers so powerful is that

441
00:17:25,630 --> 00:17:27,974
it has been drawn from a variety of

442
00:17:28,535 --> 00:17:29,115
of researchers

443
00:17:29,894 --> 00:17:30,394
across

444
00:17:31,015 --> 00:17:32,875
disciplines, academic backgrounds,

445
00:17:33,255 --> 00:17:34,554
different parts of the country,

446
00:17:35,734 --> 00:17:38,054
different perspectives, all kinda come to the same

447
00:17:38,054 --> 00:17:39,674
conclusion. And it's really just

448
00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:42,950
the narrow kind of think tank based voucher

449
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:44,869
lobby, frankly, that kind of tries to make

450
00:17:44,869 --> 00:17:46,309
the the case in the opposite direction at

451
00:17:46,309 --> 00:17:49,029
this point. Yeah. When when we talk about

452
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:51,829
that voucher lobby, who are we talking about

453
00:17:51,829 --> 00:17:53,795
generally? You know, the the sort of the

454
00:17:53,795 --> 00:17:56,035
usual suspects if you pay attention to right

455
00:17:56,035 --> 00:17:57,654
wing politics and to education,

456
00:17:58,115 --> 00:18:00,914
right wing politics. So we're talking, of course,

457
00:18:00,914 --> 00:18:03,555
about the Heritage Foundation. We're talking about Betsy

458
00:18:03,555 --> 00:18:06,295
DeVos. We're talking about the number of organizations

459
00:18:06,515 --> 00:18:08,055
affiliated with Charles Koch's

460
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:09,529
network.

461
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:12,169
And these are groups that, listen, vouchers,

462
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:15,049
are 2 of the first three paragraphs in

463
00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:18,789
Heritage Foundation's project 2025. They are, in the

464
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:20,490
second sentence of Trump's,

465
00:18:21,109 --> 00:18:23,305
campaign platform for education, which is called Trump

466
00:18:23,305 --> 00:18:24,765
40 seven. You know what?

467
00:18:25,785 --> 00:18:27,384
The think tanks, again, are all part of

468
00:18:27,384 --> 00:18:29,705
this, but, really, these are, fairly well well

469
00:18:29,705 --> 00:18:30,205
publicized,

470
00:18:30,664 --> 00:18:32,105
policy priorities for,

471
00:18:32,904 --> 00:18:34,525
right wing politicians in America.

472
00:18:34,825 --> 00:18:36,424
Yeah. I think of I think of our

473
00:18:36,424 --> 00:18:38,765
audience a little bit. Right? Our audience

474
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:40,019
is primarily,

475
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:42,339
educators in

476
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:45,299
in ECE to 12th grade kind of systems.

477
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,039
Yeah. And one one thing I hear a

478
00:18:47,039 --> 00:18:49,759
lot from, folks and it and it hurts

479
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:52,240
my heart to hear this sometimes. One thing

480
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,000
I hear a lot from folks is, like,

481
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,294
I don't know. I don't get policy. It

482
00:18:56,294 --> 00:18:58,934
confuses me. I just I just show up

483
00:18:58,934 --> 00:19:00,775
and and teach my kids. So for for

484
00:19:00,775 --> 00:19:02,134
the folks who need a little bit of

485
00:19:02,134 --> 00:19:02,794
a primer

486
00:19:03,335 --> 00:19:05,494
on things like the Heritage Foundation and the

487
00:19:05,494 --> 00:19:07,815
Koch Brothers and those kinds of and and

488
00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:08,134
why

489
00:19:08,859 --> 00:19:10,460
like, maybe talk to us a little bit

490
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:13,179
about, in a nutshell, why public education is

491
00:19:13,179 --> 00:19:16,059
such a talking point in these right wing

492
00:19:16,059 --> 00:19:16,559
efforts.

493
00:19:17,179 --> 00:19:18,720
Well, I don't think

494
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:21,440
anybody listening to this would,

495
00:19:21,944 --> 00:19:24,025
disagree with the idea that a lot of

496
00:19:24,025 --> 00:19:26,825
people have opinions about public education. A lot

497
00:19:26,825 --> 00:19:29,304
of people have opinions about how Very true.

498
00:19:29,384 --> 00:19:31,304
What should be taught in schools and how

499
00:19:31,304 --> 00:19:33,464
schools should be run. And and, you know,

500
00:19:33,464 --> 00:19:36,080
and and so in some sense, these these

501
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,860
these right wing kind of think tanks

502
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:40,900
certainly have their perspective.

503
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,140
Policy is what decides

504
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,320
how how much funding schools get, how how

505
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,384
many, you know, if there are,

506
00:19:51,105 --> 00:19:52,785
other things that are gonna compete with that

507
00:19:52,785 --> 00:19:54,625
funding, in in this case, doctors, but in

508
00:19:54,625 --> 00:19:55,984
other cases as well. I mean, this is

509
00:19:55,984 --> 00:19:57,825
what policy does. So it certainly affects the

510
00:19:57,825 --> 00:19:59,525
the daily lives of of educators.

511
00:19:59,984 --> 00:20:02,464
But any debate about, you know, what's taught

512
00:20:02,464 --> 00:20:03,204
in schools,

513
00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:06,359
Yeah. What what who who who uses the

514
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,759
bathroom in which schools. I mean Right. All

515
00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:11,000
these things are are decided, you know, minimum

516
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,640
by state legislators and, policymakers, and so these

517
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,585
things all are are affected by that. Yeah.

518
00:20:16,585 --> 00:20:17,325
You mentioned,

519
00:20:18,105 --> 00:20:20,105
any of these things that are that are

520
00:20:20,105 --> 00:20:20,605
being

521
00:20:20,985 --> 00:20:24,265
discussed regarding schools. You talked about who's using

522
00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:27,225
what restrooms, what Right. Books are allowed to

523
00:20:27,225 --> 00:20:28,365
exist in the library.

524
00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:30,849
Over the course of, the last couple of

525
00:20:30,849 --> 00:20:32,390
years, I I had the opportunity

526
00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:33,349
to really

527
00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:36,450
learn a little bit about what this strategy

528
00:20:36,450 --> 00:20:36,950
is

529
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:38,130
and,

530
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:40,529
particularly when it comes to what's in in

531
00:20:40,529 --> 00:20:42,869
front of kids and what's being taught.

532
00:20:44,744 --> 00:20:46,424
It's and one one of the things that

533
00:20:46,424 --> 00:20:47,805
I'd be curious to get your

534
00:20:48,585 --> 00:20:50,744
reaction to it. So we're in a,

535
00:20:51,545 --> 00:20:52,984
we're in a Zoom meeting. There are 5

536
00:20:52,984 --> 00:20:53,884
of us fellows,

537
00:20:54,184 --> 00:20:56,904
and we were talking to members of of

538
00:20:56,904 --> 00:20:57,565
a newspaper.

539
00:20:59,009 --> 00:21:00,470
You know, there the staff

540
00:21:00,769 --> 00:21:02,230
was on Zoom with us,

541
00:21:02,529 --> 00:21:04,849
and, as we were talking about what we

542
00:21:04,849 --> 00:21:07,349
were referring to as honest education, which means,

543
00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:08,630
teaching

544
00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:11,269
education teaching kids in a way that's inclusive

545
00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:12,230
and that affirms

546
00:21:12,595 --> 00:21:14,134
their identities and their communities

547
00:21:14,515 --> 00:21:15,015
and,

548
00:21:15,875 --> 00:21:17,795
the, you know, the the places they come

549
00:21:17,795 --> 00:21:18,295
from.

550
00:21:18,755 --> 00:21:19,495
1 of

551
00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:21,715
the rep one of the reporters asked us,

552
00:21:21,715 --> 00:21:22,215
well,

553
00:21:23,075 --> 00:21:26,400
isn't school choice a solution to that? Like,

554
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,000
if you wanna go to a school that

555
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,799
has gender non binary bathrooms, shouldn't you just

556
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:32,400
be able to choose into that? Can you

557
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,500
comment on why that's a fallacy?

558
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,720
Listen. I mean, I get

559
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,700
so I'm waving my hands

560
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:40,820
because

561
00:21:41,305 --> 00:21:43,464
folks have been making the argument that we

562
00:21:43,464 --> 00:21:44,205
should just

563
00:21:47,305 --> 00:21:47,805
separate

564
00:21:48,424 --> 00:21:49,164
and isolate

565
00:21:49,865 --> 00:21:51,325
children from each other

566
00:21:51,945 --> 00:21:53,325
using public dollars

567
00:21:53,705 --> 00:21:55,565
since at least 19 fifties.

568
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:58,329
Okay? I mean, Brown versus Board of Education

569
00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:01,029
said, no. It's not constitutional to do that

570
00:22:01,029 --> 00:22:02,789
at least on the basis of race. But

571
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:04,649
Right. This idea that,

572
00:22:05,509 --> 00:22:07,369
that that, you know, folks have

573
00:22:07,829 --> 00:22:10,230
are always going to have conflicting value sets,

574
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:11,289
and public schools

575
00:22:12,445 --> 00:22:15,744
force parents to put their children into classrooms

576
00:22:15,805 --> 00:22:18,605
with kids from families with other value sets

577
00:22:18,605 --> 00:22:20,684
has been a a a pretty tired right

578
00:22:20,684 --> 00:22:23,085
wing talking point from the beginning of the

579
00:22:23,085 --> 00:22:24,545
modern sort of public education,

580
00:22:26,259 --> 00:22:28,519
you know, environment that we're in. And so

581
00:22:32,019 --> 00:22:34,579
listen. I mean, nobody's disputing the right of

582
00:22:34,579 --> 00:22:36,500
parents to take their kids and put them

583
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:39,799
in a religious education environment, private school environment

584
00:22:39,859 --> 00:22:41,160
that that might have

585
00:22:42,255 --> 00:22:43,634
overt anti LGBTQ

586
00:22:45,055 --> 00:22:46,674
language today or,

587
00:22:47,455 --> 00:22:49,855
or might have a very narrow view of

588
00:22:49,855 --> 00:22:50,355
what

589
00:22:51,055 --> 00:22:53,455
race in American history the role race in

590
00:22:53,455 --> 00:22:54,630
American history played

591
00:22:55,109 --> 00:22:57,589
in our founding. And no one's disputing those

592
00:22:57,589 --> 00:22:59,430
things, but the the question is whether public

593
00:22:59,430 --> 00:23:00,869
dollars should be able to do that. And

594
00:23:00,869 --> 00:23:01,990
and at the end of the day, if

595
00:23:01,990 --> 00:23:04,150
you start to just simply say, we're just

596
00:23:04,150 --> 00:23:05,609
gonna give everybody a coupon,

597
00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:08,150
to go to their own school, public, private,

598
00:23:08,150 --> 00:23:08,650
whatever,

599
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:09,674
and not

600
00:23:10,475 --> 00:23:12,955
engage at all as a society in tough

601
00:23:12,955 --> 00:23:13,455
questions,

602
00:23:13,994 --> 00:23:15,835
tough questions around the issue of race, tough

603
00:23:15,835 --> 00:23:17,855
questions around the issue of of income

604
00:23:18,315 --> 00:23:18,815
disadvantage,

605
00:23:19,195 --> 00:23:22,315
historical marginalization. We're just gonna completely step away

606
00:23:22,315 --> 00:23:24,450
from all those conversations as a society. Just

607
00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:25,970
Just give everyone a coupon so they never

608
00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:27,569
have to interact with each other again. I

609
00:23:27,569 --> 00:23:28,950
mean, that is what they're saying.

610
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:29,750
Yeah.

611
00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:32,450
I I reject that idea at least as

612
00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:34,849
far as living in in in the United

613
00:23:34,849 --> 00:23:36,470
States in a pluralistic society.

614
00:23:37,505 --> 00:23:39,505
But there's been a lot of, you know,

615
00:23:39,505 --> 00:23:41,105
back and forth on this question when it

616
00:23:41,105 --> 00:23:41,924
comes to

617
00:23:42,384 --> 00:23:45,345
the extent to which religious values play a

618
00:23:45,345 --> 00:23:48,244
role in this. I, again, would also reject

619
00:23:48,625 --> 00:23:50,544
the idea that these are religious values and

620
00:23:50,544 --> 00:23:52,799
say that as a Catholic, I I reject

621
00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:54,240
much of what's said in the name of

622
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:54,740
Catholicism.

623
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,440
But Yeah. My point is the the view

624
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,839
are you articulated has has certainly come up

625
00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:00,899
a lot. And and,

626
00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:03,839
57 80 years ago, it was on an

627
00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:05,200
issue of race. And today, it's on the

628
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,200
issue of gender and gender identity. And, you

629
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,214
know, it's just a Yeah. And even that

630
00:24:10,214 --> 00:24:10,714
conversation,

631
00:24:11,095 --> 00:24:13,034
even that discourse, I should say,

632
00:24:13,414 --> 00:24:15,815
has even evolved in the last couple of

633
00:24:15,815 --> 00:24:18,875
years because the initial attack is on CRT.

634
00:24:18,934 --> 00:24:21,575
And when the attacks on CRT didn't really

635
00:24:21,575 --> 00:24:23,509
make the traction that that they were hoping

636
00:24:23,509 --> 00:24:26,289
to among undecided folks, then it moved

637
00:24:26,589 --> 00:24:27,089
into,

638
00:24:27,710 --> 00:24:28,210
LGBTQ

639
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:31,710
students, and that wasn't really that palatable. And

640
00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:34,429
now we're into this other sort of place,

641
00:24:34,429 --> 00:24:37,569
and so that that discourse seems to have,

642
00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:40,825
shall we say, been dynamic.

643
00:24:41,765 --> 00:24:43,765
For sure. No. I guess. I guess. Yeah.

644
00:24:43,765 --> 00:24:45,845
One one of the things that's so the,

645
00:24:46,325 --> 00:24:48,244
some of the the topics in the book

646
00:24:48,244 --> 00:24:49,705
are just, like, super,

647
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:53,570
woah. You know, that's kind of, like, these

648
00:24:53,710 --> 00:24:56,049
responses that I have, some really big things

649
00:24:56,109 --> 00:24:58,190
that are researched here. I wanna ask kind

650
00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:00,109
of a broad question about your research and

651
00:25:00,109 --> 00:25:02,430
invite you to dig into it if that's

652
00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:04,750
something you wanna do. What's been kind of

653
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:05,234
the most

654
00:25:05,875 --> 00:25:09,875
striking thing about your experience reach researching this

655
00:25:09,875 --> 00:25:12,214
book? What are some things that have kinda

656
00:25:12,275 --> 00:25:13,494
jumped out at you

657
00:25:13,795 --> 00:25:14,295
as

658
00:25:14,914 --> 00:25:17,654
this is huge and this is extremely important?

659
00:25:18,115 --> 00:25:20,615
It is very difficult to overstate

660
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:22,400
the

661
00:25:23,019 --> 00:25:26,220
in the size of the negative impact that

662
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:28,320
vouchers have had on student achievement

663
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:31,180
over the last decade. Wow. It is you

664
00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:33,820
have to go to something like what hurricane

665
00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:36,888
Katrina did to the the test scores Wow.

666
00:25:37,214 --> 00:25:39,828
Of kids in Louisiana. Like, not exaggerating at

667
00:25:39,828 --> 00:25:41,355
all. No. No. No. You no. The just

668
00:25:41,355 --> 00:25:43,194
in terms of just the the effect size,

669
00:25:43,194 --> 00:25:45,054
the the magnitude of the drop

670
00:25:45,355 --> 00:25:47,595
on academic outcomes, you have to go to

671
00:25:47,595 --> 00:25:48,714
something like that. You have to go to

672
00:25:48,714 --> 00:25:50,971
something like what actually COVID 19 did to

673
00:25:50,971 --> 00:25:53,229
test scores more recently. And, you know, we

674
00:25:53,229 --> 00:25:55,487
can have a conversation about whether test scores

675
00:25:55,487 --> 00:25:58,310
do or don't measure Of course. Academic success.

676
00:25:58,310 --> 00:26:00,851
I I for the purposes of the the

677
00:26:00,851 --> 00:26:03,108
voucher conversation in the book, I I kinda

678
00:26:03,108 --> 00:26:05,565
stay out of that conversation simply because what's

679
00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:08,304
not arguable right now is that s scores

680
00:26:08,444 --> 00:26:11,724
are used to evaluate public schools and to

681
00:26:11,724 --> 00:26:14,845
say public schools are failing or doing well

682
00:26:14,845 --> 00:26:17,164
or whatever. And so my only in in

683
00:26:17,164 --> 00:26:19,529
the evaluation community is you have to study

684
00:26:19,589 --> 00:26:21,509
the same apples to apples. When you when

685
00:26:21,509 --> 00:26:22,970
you are asked a question

686
00:26:23,670 --> 00:26:25,910
about whether or not vouchers are performing better

687
00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:27,430
than public schools, you need to use the

688
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:29,190
same metric. It's just That's right. Plain and

689
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:31,430
simple. So I I sort of sidestep the

690
00:26:31,509 --> 00:26:33,509
our test scores good or bad. Listen. Test

691
00:26:33,509 --> 00:26:35,378
scores don't measure everything. But on whatever they

692
00:26:35,431 --> 00:26:36,444
But if this is the measure that you

693
00:26:36,444 --> 00:26:37,709
are choosing If public schools are held accountable

694
00:26:37,709 --> 00:26:38,250
for what their test scores say, it's reasonable

695
00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:39,424
to ask voucher schools funded by public dollars,

696
00:26:39,484 --> 00:26:41,964
how they do. And the answer to that

697
00:26:41,964 --> 00:26:42,464
question

698
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
is that the bigger and the more recent

699
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,720
the voucher system, the worse the results have

700
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,039
been. And it's what's surprising is just how

701
00:26:54,039 --> 00:26:55,819
bad those results have been. That's

702
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,279
well and then part 22 you know, 1

703
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:00,119
a to that response is not only what's

704
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,174
surprising is how bad the results have been,

705
00:27:02,255 --> 00:27:03,934
but that we're still in this moment where,

706
00:27:03,934 --> 00:27:06,095
you know, 24 states have passed some version

707
00:27:06,095 --> 00:27:07,455
of the voucher scheme in the last 3

708
00:27:07,455 --> 00:27:09,955
years despite that horrific impact.

709
00:27:10,335 --> 00:27:12,015
Right. And I've you know, just looking at

710
00:27:12,015 --> 00:27:14,035
some preliminary research on this,

711
00:27:14,429 --> 00:27:14,929
obviously,

712
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:17,629
there are school voucher bills being debated all

713
00:27:17,629 --> 00:27:18,990
over the place. Yep.

714
00:27:19,549 --> 00:27:22,690
I'm reading that around 32 states have already

715
00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:24,210
implemented or

716
00:27:24,750 --> 00:27:27,309
begun the process of implementing some form of

717
00:27:27,309 --> 00:27:29,765
a voucher system. And so this is something

718
00:27:29,765 --> 00:27:32,404
where it sounds like practice doesn't align with

719
00:27:32,404 --> 00:27:33,525
facts. I wanna read a,

720
00:27:34,325 --> 00:27:36,644
I wanna read just a quick passage and

721
00:27:36,644 --> 00:27:38,085
have you kind of expand on it a

722
00:27:38,085 --> 00:27:39,704
little bit. So it's from the introduction,

723
00:27:41,285 --> 00:27:43,285
that has to do with parents, and it's

724
00:27:43,285 --> 00:27:46,099
titled parents looking for academic quality struggle to

725
00:27:46,099 --> 00:27:48,179
find room in private schools. The pattern of

726
00:27:48,179 --> 00:27:51,059
recent academic loss for voucher students raises the

727
00:27:51,059 --> 00:27:53,240
question of what parents actually want.

728
00:27:53,539 --> 00:27:56,980
Studies from New Orleans are especially useful, you

729
00:27:56,980 --> 00:27:57,880
mentioned Katrina,

730
00:27:58,335 --> 00:27:59,154
because researchers

731
00:27:59,934 --> 00:28:02,575
at and affiliated with Tulane University have been

732
00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:05,454
able to use actual school application data to

733
00:28:05,454 --> 00:28:07,875
study how parents make priorities.

734
00:28:08,654 --> 00:28:11,309
The those results indicate that although parents can

735
00:28:11,390 --> 00:28:14,190
do consider school features like demographic, safety, size,

736
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:16,910
and distance to home, the academic performance of

737
00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:18,049
the school remains

738
00:28:18,349 --> 00:28:21,009
a determining factor in the way they rank

739
00:28:21,309 --> 00:28:21,809
preferences.

740
00:28:22,190 --> 00:28:23,710
So I wanna have you comment a little

741
00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:25,569
bit about that because your

742
00:28:25,904 --> 00:28:29,285
you your research has found that categorically,

743
00:28:29,664 --> 00:28:32,244
the negative impacts of vouchers are pretty

744
00:28:32,705 --> 00:28:34,725
seismic. They're pretty significant.

745
00:28:35,585 --> 00:28:36,085
Yeah.

746
00:28:36,465 --> 00:28:38,884
What is it that parents are looking for

747
00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:41,579
if we're still seeing some supporting

748
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,420
some form of vouchers?

749
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,180
Well,

750
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,859
you know, I mean, partly,

751
00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:51,559
parents are different. They have different preferences we're

752
00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:52,859
talking about on average.

753
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:53,980
The way

754
00:28:54,404 --> 00:28:56,005
to think about this, and the the reason

755
00:28:56,005 --> 00:28:57,605
this really matters here is that in New

756
00:28:57,605 --> 00:29:00,505
Orleans, we're talking about public or parents who

757
00:29:00,884 --> 00:29:02,505
who who go who've been through a lot,

758
00:29:03,924 --> 00:29:04,585
that historically,

759
00:29:05,125 --> 00:29:07,785
under resourced community, in terms of education

760
00:29:08,244 --> 00:29:10,025
and other things. And we saw Katrina

761
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:13,140
sort of expose a lot of that historical

762
00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:14,839
inequality or re exposed it.

763
00:29:16,339 --> 00:29:18,039
But, you know, you go to

764
00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:21,320
the whole theory of the case behind vouchers

765
00:29:21,380 --> 00:29:24,019
until recently, until the counterculture wars came back

766
00:29:24,019 --> 00:29:25,000
into the conversation,

767
00:29:25,724 --> 00:29:27,565
was really that vouchers that, you know, the

768
00:29:27,565 --> 00:29:30,045
right wing groups most of the book, I'm

769
00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:33,265
I'm talking about efforts that right wing voucher

770
00:29:33,325 --> 00:29:34,785
backers made to

771
00:29:35,244 --> 00:29:38,525
undermine public schools using academic outcomes, test scores

772
00:29:38,525 --> 00:29:41,069
in particular as the measure that they used,

773
00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:43,730
saying that public schools were failing.

774
00:29:53,389 --> 00:29:54,289
Yeah. The the

775
00:29:55,865 --> 00:29:56,365
voucher

776
00:29:57,144 --> 00:30:00,045
advocates have long claimed public schools are failing,

777
00:30:00,744 --> 00:30:03,065
using test scores to say that public schools

778
00:30:03,065 --> 00:30:05,725
are failing. And they've been going into historically

779
00:30:05,785 --> 00:30:07,164
under resourced communities,

780
00:30:07,779 --> 00:30:09,779
And instead of saying, let's give those communities

781
00:30:09,779 --> 00:30:12,420
more resources. Let's give public schools in Cleveland

782
00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:14,660
or public schools in Milwaukee or public schools

783
00:30:14,660 --> 00:30:16,759
in New Orleans more money to work

784
00:30:17,059 --> 00:30:18,740
and build a a system that works for

785
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:19,240
everyone.

786
00:30:20,674 --> 00:30:22,355
They said, let's just give everyone a coupon

787
00:30:22,355 --> 00:30:23,875
and send them on to private schools, which

788
00:30:23,875 --> 00:30:25,575
will give them more academic opportunity.

789
00:30:26,595 --> 00:30:29,234
And in general, parents do have a lot

790
00:30:29,315 --> 00:30:31,575
a variety of preferences, but what they do

791
00:30:31,634 --> 00:30:34,299
and what they say are sometimes different things.

792
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:36,519
And when they fill out applications and this

793
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:37,880
was the point I was making in the

794
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,140
passage you read. And they, like,

795
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:42,680
they maybe there are some parents out there,

796
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,599
I'm sure there are, who say, I don't

797
00:30:44,599 --> 00:30:46,599
care about the academic quality of my kid's

798
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:48,039
school. All I care about is if they're

799
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:50,954
getting, you know, religious education. They're not around

800
00:30:51,494 --> 00:30:53,815
woke kids. They're not around LGBTQ kids. That's

801
00:30:53,815 --> 00:30:55,914
all I care about. Maybe those parents exist.

802
00:30:56,375 --> 00:30:59,335
But survey after survey after survey shows parents

803
00:30:59,335 --> 00:31:01,174
really do care about the academic quality of

804
00:31:01,174 --> 00:31:03,414
their schools, whatever else they're searching for. To

805
00:31:03,414 --> 00:31:04,474
think of it differently,

806
00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:06,829
parents may not be seeking out, you know,

807
00:31:06,829 --> 00:31:09,710
an a plus school in every instance, but

808
00:31:09,710 --> 00:31:12,049
they don't want f schools. They don't want

809
00:31:12,269 --> 00:31:13,950
the lowest of the low either. And the

810
00:31:13,950 --> 00:31:15,169
problem with the voucher

811
00:31:16,269 --> 00:31:16,769
evidence

812
00:31:17,470 --> 00:31:18,210
is that

813
00:31:18,924 --> 00:31:21,505
the other side on this question pitches vouchers

814
00:31:21,565 --> 00:31:24,285
as specifically academic improvements. They go in there

815
00:31:24,285 --> 00:31:26,765
and market themselves as improving education, and they

816
00:31:26,765 --> 00:31:27,265
actually

817
00:31:27,565 --> 00:31:29,964
are substantially hurting children when it comes to

818
00:31:29,964 --> 00:31:32,365
their academic outcomes. In in in New Orleans

819
00:31:32,809 --> 00:31:33,250
Yeah.

820
00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:35,929
The magnitude of the voucher decline is is

821
00:31:35,929 --> 00:31:38,329
is roughly equivalent to taking a kid from

822
00:31:38,329 --> 00:31:41,069
the 50th percentile or in the middle

823
00:31:41,369 --> 00:31:42,829
of an academic outcome,

824
00:31:43,609 --> 00:31:44,109
distribution

825
00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:47,470
and pushing them back down, below, another

826
00:31:48,044 --> 00:31:49,904
16 to 20% of children.

827
00:31:50,524 --> 00:31:51,884
Most parents don't know that. So if you

828
00:31:51,884 --> 00:31:53,264
pitch the question to them,

829
00:31:54,684 --> 00:31:56,524
are academics the only thing you look for

830
00:31:56,524 --> 00:31:57,804
in a school? They're all gonna say no.

831
00:31:57,804 --> 00:31:59,484
I want lots of things. But if you

832
00:31:59,484 --> 00:32:00,304
say to them,

833
00:32:01,529 --> 00:32:04,330
in exchange for those other things, you are

834
00:32:04,330 --> 00:32:07,450
going to push your kid behind 20% more

835
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:08,809
of the kids than they were before I

836
00:32:08,809 --> 00:32:09,869
gave you the voucher.

837
00:32:10,250 --> 00:32:11,769
I mean, no one's ever asked that question

838
00:32:11,769 --> 00:32:13,769
directly, but, all of the evidence we have

839
00:32:13,769 --> 00:32:15,865
suggest they would decline to send their kids

840
00:32:15,865 --> 00:32:17,884
further and further below

841
00:32:18,424 --> 00:32:20,585
below, the average on academics. And that's really

842
00:32:20,585 --> 00:32:22,765
what Voxers are doing. Yeah. Definitely.

843
00:32:23,304 --> 00:32:25,384
One follow-up question just kind of occurs to

844
00:32:25,384 --> 00:32:26,984
me, and I don't remember if you cover

845
00:32:26,984 --> 00:32:28,825
this in the book. But one thing that

846
00:32:28,825 --> 00:32:30,444
occurs to me is a question

847
00:32:31,679 --> 00:32:33,619
of the extent to which

848
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:35,700
students

849
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:37,619
who receive vouchers,

850
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,240
who have never been in private schools. That's

851
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,679
another point that you make in the book

852
00:32:41,679 --> 00:32:44,480
is that the Yeah. The overwhelming majority of

853
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:44,980
beneficiaries

854
00:32:45,595 --> 00:32:47,914
of vouchers have never actually gone to public

855
00:32:47,914 --> 00:32:50,015
school, and Yeah. So they're

856
00:32:50,315 --> 00:32:51,695
even even if you

857
00:32:52,075 --> 00:32:54,394
even if you buy into the rhetoric that

858
00:32:54,394 --> 00:32:56,975
we're saving them from failing public schools,

859
00:32:57,679 --> 00:32:59,919
that's not who's benefiting anyway even if that

860
00:32:59,919 --> 00:33:02,019
were true. So I guess my question is,

861
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,980
do you have any sense for the attrition

862
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,500
rate of voucher receiving students from public schools?

863
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,039
So so they try it. They're like, this

864
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:13,545
is not what we're getting. We we just

865
00:33:13,545 --> 00:33:15,464
are gonna get out. Is there any data

866
00:33:15,464 --> 00:33:17,784
around that at this point? Right. So it's

867
00:33:17,944 --> 00:33:20,345
so about 70% of voucher users were never

868
00:33:20,345 --> 00:33:22,105
in public school to begin with, and that's

869
00:33:22,105 --> 00:33:24,580
true. For the 30 or so, percent, that's

870
00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:25,860
been true for a very long time in

871
00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:27,140
a lot of different states, by the way.

872
00:33:27,140 --> 00:33:29,140
That number holds up quite well. They're not

873
00:33:29,140 --> 00:33:30,660
paying for the people that they claim to

874
00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:32,740
be paying for. No. No. No. But there

875
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:35,240
are about 30% of vouchers who do transfer

876
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:37,539
from public school to private school. And, actually,

877
00:33:37,539 --> 00:33:38,840
those are the kids whose

878
00:33:39,734 --> 00:33:40,234
impacts

879
00:33:40,934 --> 00:33:42,855
of doing that, of taking a voucher. We're

880
00:33:42,855 --> 00:33:44,855
actually able to study because we we can

881
00:33:44,855 --> 00:33:46,214
see it before and after. We can see

882
00:33:46,214 --> 00:33:47,654
how they were doing in public school, then

883
00:33:47,654 --> 00:33:48,775
we can see how they were doing in

884
00:33:48,775 --> 00:33:50,295
private school after they took the voucher. And

885
00:33:50,295 --> 00:33:52,375
that's those are the group of kids who

886
00:33:52,375 --> 00:33:53,595
who really did suffer.

887
00:33:54,009 --> 00:33:55,789
Those tend to be kids who are disproportionately

888
00:33:55,849 --> 00:33:58,490
students of color, disproportionately lower income families.

889
00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:00,349
You know,

890
00:34:01,049 --> 00:34:02,910
and part of that's because listen.

891
00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:07,325
Voucher schools the high quality private schools don't

892
00:34:07,325 --> 00:34:09,965
need vouchers to to to fund them. They,

893
00:34:10,525 --> 00:34:13,485
they don't need, new enrollment. They've got waiting

894
00:34:13,485 --> 00:34:14,704
lists in many cases.

895
00:34:15,644 --> 00:34:17,565
It the schools that are open, the private

896
00:34:17,565 --> 00:34:19,164
schools that are open are either pop up

897
00:34:19,164 --> 00:34:20,625
schools, schools that just

898
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,599
come into the market to cash in on

899
00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:24,460
the new taxpayer bailout or,

900
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,719
financially distressed existing private schools that do take

901
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,039
that cash that that taxpayer bailout.

902
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,800
So they're not very good is what I'm

903
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,184
trying to say. Yeah. So those 25 to

904
00:34:34,184 --> 00:34:36,105
30% of kids, though, they they often don't

905
00:34:36,265 --> 00:34:38,105
who do transfer from public to private school,

906
00:34:38,105 --> 00:34:39,325
they often don't stay.

907
00:34:39,785 --> 00:34:41,785
And they they come into private school with

908
00:34:41,785 --> 00:34:43,545
about for a year or 2, and then

909
00:34:43,545 --> 00:34:45,144
they leave. And we don't have a lot

910
00:34:45,144 --> 00:34:45,885
of great

911
00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:48,420
scientific data on why they leave. In some

912
00:34:48,420 --> 00:34:49,239
cases, they

913
00:34:49,539 --> 00:34:51,539
you know? But what we do know is

914
00:34:51,539 --> 00:34:53,539
that they tend to be lower scoring kids.

915
00:34:53,539 --> 00:34:55,539
They tend to, again, be more likely to

916
00:34:55,539 --> 00:34:57,300
be students of color than even in a

917
00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:58,360
school that's primarily,

918
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:00,039
say, 80%

919
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:01,559
students of color.

920
00:35:01,934 --> 00:35:04,414
Even with that that high rate, kids who

921
00:35:04,414 --> 00:35:06,574
leave are even more likely to be.

922
00:35:07,375 --> 00:35:08,894
These are consistent with,

923
00:35:09,375 --> 00:35:12,974
more recent media reporting on private voucher funded

924
00:35:12,974 --> 00:35:16,494
private schools, expelling or quietly asking kids they

925
00:35:16,494 --> 00:35:18,869
don't particularly like to leave, kids that aren't

926
00:35:18,869 --> 00:35:21,269
working well for them. We do know that,

927
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:23,050
you know, students with disabilities

928
00:35:23,429 --> 00:35:25,589
have a very difficult time getting into many

929
00:35:25,589 --> 00:35:28,809
voucher schools and staying in voucher schools. So,

930
00:35:28,869 --> 00:35:31,565
you know, it's it's it's a the attrition

931
00:35:31,565 --> 00:35:32,684
rate is very high too, by the way.

932
00:35:32,684 --> 00:35:35,484
It's about 25 to 30% per year. Kids

933
00:35:35,484 --> 00:35:37,005
giving up a voucher and going back. And,

934
00:35:37,005 --> 00:35:39,005
again, the vast majority of those are actually

935
00:35:39,005 --> 00:35:41,105
going back into the public schools. They're not

936
00:35:41,324 --> 00:35:43,964
they're not previously admitted voucher students who just

937
00:35:43,964 --> 00:35:45,840
happen to leave. They this is a a

938
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,220
revolving door, between it. And that has implications

939
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,680
too, by the way, on the the schools

940
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,680
and classrooms that are taking them back in.

941
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:54,340
Right? Because,

942
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,960
you know, any educator will will tell you.

943
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,735
Right? Like, the classroom churn's a a big,

944
00:36:00,055 --> 00:36:02,215
it's it's disruptive. It's it's it's not great

945
00:36:02,215 --> 00:36:03,595
for anyone. Yeah.

946
00:36:04,295 --> 00:36:05,595
A little bit of a

947
00:36:05,974 --> 00:36:07,735
there's one thing just kind of occurs to

948
00:36:07,735 --> 00:36:08,235
me.

949
00:36:09,494 --> 00:36:11,434
So what's what's to stop

950
00:36:11,815 --> 00:36:12,795
voucher advocates

951
00:36:13,420 --> 00:36:15,579
for making the argument? Well, the reason they

952
00:36:15,579 --> 00:36:18,059
fail out of private schools is because public

953
00:36:18,059 --> 00:36:18,559
schools

954
00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:20,860
hold low standards, and we have a higher

955
00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:22,539
standard, so we're gonna have a failure rate.

956
00:36:22,539 --> 00:36:24,559
I don't know if that argument's been made.

957
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:26,775
But because I think For sure. What I've

958
00:36:26,775 --> 00:36:29,355
seen is this kind of presumed

959
00:36:30,214 --> 00:36:32,534
elite status of private schools. I've been in

960
00:36:32,534 --> 00:36:35,014
public education my entire life, and there's this

961
00:36:35,014 --> 00:36:37,014
presumption among a lot of us, and particularly

962
00:36:37,014 --> 00:36:39,434
I come from a community of color, particularly

963
00:36:39,574 --> 00:36:41,655
with communities of color. I've seen some of

964
00:36:41,655 --> 00:36:42,269
the latest

965
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:43,250
data,

966
00:36:44,349 --> 00:36:46,449
where we just sort of uncritically

967
00:36:46,750 --> 00:36:49,070
assume that it's an elite education because it's

968
00:36:49,070 --> 00:36:51,170
private. So have you seen that argument,

969
00:36:51,550 --> 00:36:54,449
and is there any way of kinda saying,

970
00:36:54,670 --> 00:36:56,909
no. You can the data is the data,

971
00:36:56,909 --> 00:36:59,005
and you can't spin it that way. Well,

972
00:36:59,065 --> 00:37:00,664
yes. There is that argument, and I will

973
00:37:00,664 --> 00:37:02,025
just honor that,

974
00:37:02,824 --> 00:37:04,585
you know, where we do see,

975
00:37:06,505 --> 00:37:09,224
stronger measures of voucher support in public opinion

976
00:37:09,224 --> 00:37:09,724
data

977
00:37:10,289 --> 00:37:14,050
among otherwise progressive families tends to be actually

978
00:37:14,050 --> 00:37:16,230
on the voucher issue. If you go into

979
00:37:16,289 --> 00:37:19,010
some communities of color and you say, listen.

980
00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:21,010
How do you support vouchers to go to

981
00:37:21,010 --> 00:37:22,150
private school? More

982
00:37:22,684 --> 00:37:24,925
respondents in those communities will say yes than

983
00:37:24,925 --> 00:37:27,244
than in others. And I think that's partly

984
00:37:27,244 --> 00:37:28,925
a a function of the fact that many

985
00:37:28,925 --> 00:37:31,724
public schools have been historically under resourced. Public

986
00:37:31,724 --> 00:37:34,545
schools reflect society. Society still contains,

987
00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:37,909
you know, very levels of racism, of sexism,

988
00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:38,630
of,

989
00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:40,150
you know, disadvantage

990
00:37:40,449 --> 00:37:42,869
based on income, even in some cases, geographic

991
00:37:43,090 --> 00:37:43,909
access. So,

992
00:37:44,210 --> 00:37:45,030
you know, nobody's,

993
00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:48,710
you know, in making the case against vouchers,

994
00:37:48,929 --> 00:37:50,144
you know, not no no one is at

995
00:37:50,144 --> 00:37:52,065
least I'm not claiming that public schools have

996
00:37:52,065 --> 00:37:53,364
served every one of these communities

997
00:37:53,664 --> 00:37:55,844
at all times historically. That would be foolish

998
00:37:56,144 --> 00:37:59,204
and and and, offensive, frankly, to to do.

999
00:37:59,664 --> 00:38:00,164
But

1000
00:38:01,664 --> 00:38:04,829
what is true is that this perception of

1001
00:38:04,829 --> 00:38:07,010
private schools as an elite option

1002
00:38:07,789 --> 00:38:08,690
and an elite

1003
00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:09,650
alternative

1004
00:38:09,950 --> 00:38:11,090
to that historic,

1005
00:38:12,269 --> 00:38:14,989
you know, under resourcing at minimum of public

1006
00:38:14,989 --> 00:38:16,989
schools is just it's not it's it is

1007
00:38:16,989 --> 00:38:19,505
a perception. I think Hollywood adds to it.

1008
00:38:19,505 --> 00:38:20,565
I think the voucher

1009
00:38:21,345 --> 00:38:24,085
backers add to it. I think people's perception

1010
00:38:24,224 --> 00:38:26,465
of certain there are such thing as very

1011
00:38:26,465 --> 00:38:28,945
elite private schools out there. There are such

1012
00:38:28,945 --> 00:38:31,265
thing as you're very elite public schools. Right?

1013
00:38:31,265 --> 00:38:31,765
Yeah.

1014
00:38:32,429 --> 00:38:34,510
But the question is, what's the typical voucher

1015
00:38:34,510 --> 00:38:36,210
receiving school? And it is not

1016
00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:39,469
the boarding school of the movies. It's not

1017
00:38:39,469 --> 00:38:42,369
the elite academy of of Hollywood. It is

1018
00:38:42,510 --> 00:38:43,250
a rundown

1019
00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:44,449
private school.

1020
00:38:45,054 --> 00:38:47,695
I call them subprime private schools. They're, again,

1021
00:38:47,695 --> 00:38:48,755
financially distressed.

1022
00:38:49,215 --> 00:38:51,695
Often, they're they're working, you know, on a

1023
00:38:51,695 --> 00:38:53,295
trailer in the backyard of a of a

1024
00:38:53,295 --> 00:38:55,614
church. In many cases, I've been to private

1025
00:38:55,614 --> 00:38:57,875
schools run out of church basements in Milwaukee.

1026
00:38:58,015 --> 00:38:59,315
Like, these are not

1027
00:38:59,769 --> 00:39:02,410
high quality academic elite providers, but that is

1028
00:39:02,410 --> 00:39:04,530
certainly the perception that gets traded on and

1029
00:39:04,530 --> 00:39:06,250
and marketed when you when you see these

1030
00:39:06,250 --> 00:39:09,050
these voucher schemes pushed in, especially into vulnerable

1031
00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:11,289
communities. I call it the education equivalent of

1032
00:39:11,289 --> 00:39:13,130
predatory lending because that's what it is. They're

1033
00:39:13,130 --> 00:39:14,269
they're selling a vision

1034
00:39:14,724 --> 00:39:17,284
of academic hope and academic opportunity that does

1035
00:39:17,284 --> 00:39:18,264
not materialize.

1036
00:39:18,964 --> 00:39:19,464
Yeah.

1037
00:39:20,085 --> 00:39:21,304
It's powerful stuff.

1038
00:39:21,605 --> 00:39:23,364
Gonna take a quick little break, and then

1039
00:39:23,364 --> 00:39:24,885
when we come back, we're gonna talk a

1040
00:39:24,885 --> 00:39:25,945
little bit about

1041
00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:29,219
all of these different holes in this about

1042
00:39:29,219 --> 00:39:31,320
whether vouchers represent privatization

1043
00:39:31,940 --> 00:39:34,280
and, and those kinds of things. So,

1044
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:36,920
that when we're back, but first,

1045
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:39,400
just wanna take some time to

1046
00:39:39,864 --> 00:39:41,085
welcome everyone back

1047
00:39:42,265 --> 00:39:43,545
to the podcast as we,

1048
00:39:44,344 --> 00:39:46,204
as we continue to do this work

1049
00:39:47,065 --> 00:39:49,704
remixing the conversation on race power in education,

1050
00:39:49,704 --> 00:39:51,325
particularly in equity in education.

1051
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,920
We also know that if you're a teacher

1052
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,760
out there, you maybe haven't had enough time

1053
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,619
to do a lot of financial planning.

1054
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,159
And most of us are just counting the

1055
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:03,400
days until retirement and hope that we can

1056
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:04,815
cash out something really good.

1057
00:40:05,454 --> 00:40:07,135
Well, if you are interested in doing some

1058
00:40:07,135 --> 00:40:09,375
financial planning, go ahead and hit up my

1059
00:40:09,375 --> 00:40:11,074
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1060
00:40:11,534 --> 00:40:12,835
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1061
00:40:14,094 --> 00:40:15,954
They can really help you,

1062
00:40:16,655 --> 00:40:18,809
get on track to start planning for your

1063
00:40:18,809 --> 00:40:19,789
financial future.

1064
00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:22,030
Tori and Alex are particularly

1065
00:40:22,890 --> 00:40:24,910
passionate about supporting educators.

1066
00:40:25,769 --> 00:40:28,730
Both were raised by educators, and they really

1067
00:40:28,730 --> 00:40:30,730
want to see educators be able to start

1068
00:40:30,730 --> 00:40:31,230
building

1069
00:40:31,844 --> 00:40:34,184
generational wealth. So if you go to toryandalex.ceterrainvestors.com/2dope,

1070
00:40:38,804 --> 00:40:40,244
t o o d o p e, you

1071
00:40:40,244 --> 00:40:41,144
can get 25%

1072
00:40:41,525 --> 00:40:42,505
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1073
00:40:43,125 --> 00:40:43,625
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1074
00:40:43,925 --> 00:40:44,425
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1075
00:40:45,860 --> 00:40:48,420
and hit them up. They they are, they're

1076
00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:50,900
great. They're doing this amazing work for our

1077
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:52,199
teachers in our communities,

1078
00:40:52,820 --> 00:40:53,320
and,

1079
00:40:54,099 --> 00:40:55,780
you let them know that the 2 Dope

1080
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:57,800
Teachers in a Mic podcast sent you.

1081
00:41:00,125 --> 00:41:00,844
Alright. So,

1082
00:41:01,324 --> 00:41:04,364
back here with doctor Josh Cowan, author of

1083
00:41:04,364 --> 00:41:07,085
the Privateers, how billionaires created a culture war

1084
00:41:07,085 --> 00:41:08,945
and sold school vouchers,

1085
00:41:10,284 --> 00:41:11,885
had the pleasure of read it. Well, okay.

1086
00:41:11,885 --> 00:41:13,920
I'm not gonna say it was a pleasure

1087
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,099
reading this book, actually. And that reminds me,

1088
00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:19,500
of something that we talked about before

1089
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,719
and and that you opened the book with

1090
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,960
was that this is not a book that

1091
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:24,460
you

1092
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,599
are happy that you had to write. Can

1093
00:41:26,599 --> 00:41:28,300
you talk a little bit about

1094
00:41:28,644 --> 00:41:30,405
why it is why you did not wanna

1095
00:41:30,405 --> 00:41:31,385
write this book?

1096
00:41:31,765 --> 00:41:32,265
Well,

1097
00:41:33,845 --> 00:41:34,985
you know, I am

1098
00:41:35,285 --> 00:41:35,785
having

1099
00:41:37,845 --> 00:41:41,045
to part ways pretty publicly in some cases,

1100
00:41:41,045 --> 00:41:42,644
very selfishly, I suppose. One reason I didn't

1101
00:41:42,644 --> 00:41:44,190
wanna write is I'm having to part ways

1102
00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:46,429
very publicly with people who I knew, who

1103
00:41:46,429 --> 00:41:47,329
I think do

1104
00:41:48,030 --> 00:41:49,869
care about kids and families in their own

1105
00:41:49,869 --> 00:41:50,349
way,

1106
00:41:50,750 --> 00:41:53,070
who but who have been wrong when it

1107
00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:55,150
comes to the to the research, the evidence

1108
00:41:55,150 --> 00:41:56,909
on these voucher schemes. It's not an it's

1109
00:41:56,909 --> 00:41:58,815
not a comfortable thing to do. But much

1110
00:41:58,815 --> 00:42:00,014
more importantly than,

1111
00:42:00,414 --> 00:42:01,875
my own feelings

1112
00:42:02,255 --> 00:42:03,474
is the fact that,

1113
00:42:05,135 --> 00:42:05,795
you know,

1114
00:42:06,974 --> 00:42:08,195
researchers in education

1115
00:42:08,815 --> 00:42:10,034
don't get

1116
00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:12,099
straightforward,

1117
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:13,380
uncomplicated

1118
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,679
results very often. They they're they're you know,

1119
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:19,920
who knows what the right curriculum is? Who

1120
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,239
knows what the right teacher training program is?

1121
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,239
Who knows what the right approach to classroom

1122
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,400
management is? Right? And there's a lot of

1123
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,585
different Some things work for some folks. Some

1124
00:42:28,585 --> 00:42:30,184
things work for others. What we try to

1125
00:42:30,184 --> 00:42:32,204
do is just kind of use

1126
00:42:33,224 --> 00:42:34,744
research to sort of do what's best to

1127
00:42:34,744 --> 00:42:35,405
make ourselves

1128
00:42:35,704 --> 00:42:36,204
stronger,

1129
00:42:36,585 --> 00:42:39,144
more caring, empathic professionals, but also to do

1130
00:42:39,144 --> 00:42:40,744
what's best for kids and families because that's

1131
00:42:40,744 --> 00:42:41,965
the most important thing.

1132
00:42:43,380 --> 00:42:44,980
And over the last 10 years, it just

1133
00:42:44,980 --> 00:42:48,679
can't overstate enough how awful and one-sided

1134
00:42:48,980 --> 00:42:51,159
the evidence against vouchers have become.

1135
00:42:51,619 --> 00:42:54,099
And yet they're here. They're being pushed like

1136
00:42:54,099 --> 00:42:54,920
never before,

1137
00:42:55,554 --> 00:42:57,795
And they're being pushed in a very, very,

1138
00:42:57,795 --> 00:43:00,855
in my view, nefarious and and long headed,

1139
00:43:01,235 --> 00:43:04,054
and and in some cases, discriminatory way,

1140
00:43:04,515 --> 00:43:06,195
which is where the kind of culture work

1141
00:43:06,195 --> 00:43:08,994
conversation comes in. Because over the last decade

1142
00:43:08,994 --> 00:43:10,215
as vouchers have

1143
00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:13,250
given the research community and the education community

1144
00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:13,989
more generally

1145
00:43:14,369 --> 00:43:16,710
strong evidence that these do not work for

1146
00:43:17,489 --> 00:43:20,070
especially for historically marginalized families,

1147
00:43:20,610 --> 00:43:21,510
we've seen

1148
00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:22,630
in parallel

1149
00:43:22,954 --> 00:43:23,855
their resurgence,

1150
00:43:24,474 --> 00:43:26,155
first during the Trump years and then in

1151
00:43:26,155 --> 00:43:26,815
the aftermath

1152
00:43:27,755 --> 00:43:29,855
of kind of this new instead of academic

1153
00:43:30,235 --> 00:43:32,715
opportunity as the marketing pitch, which still happens

1154
00:43:32,715 --> 00:43:34,494
to some extent, you're seeing

1155
00:43:34,875 --> 00:43:37,139
the mark the Culture Wars, The Heritage Foundation,

1156
00:43:37,139 --> 00:43:38,760
the authors of project 2025

1157
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:41,539
once wrote a report recently saying, you know,

1158
00:43:41,539 --> 00:43:44,099
the culture wars can help reduce woke in

1159
00:43:44,099 --> 00:43:46,900
education. The cult vouchers can help reduce woke

1160
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:48,039
in public schools.

1161
00:43:48,420 --> 00:43:49,239
Ron DeSantis,

1162
00:43:49,619 --> 00:43:50,839
the Florida governor,

1163
00:43:51,454 --> 00:43:53,715
who signed last year Heard of him.

1164
00:43:54,094 --> 00:43:54,594
Yeah.

1165
00:43:54,974 --> 00:43:57,695
Right wing Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed last

1166
00:43:57,695 --> 00:43:58,914
year and pushed for,

1167
00:43:59,695 --> 00:44:01,934
the largest what is right now the largest

1168
00:44:01,934 --> 00:44:03,394
voucher system in the country.

1169
00:44:04,015 --> 00:44:05,635
At the same time, he was

1170
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:08,920
defending a public school curriculum mandated by the

1171
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,980
state that that said that suggested that slavery

1172
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,719
had economic benefits to enslaved people. And he

1173
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,079
doubled down on that when he's asked if

1174
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:18,460
he misspoke. So no. No.

1175
00:44:18,984 --> 00:44:22,025
Blacksmithing. He he cited blacksmithing as an example

1176
00:44:22,025 --> 00:44:24,585
of how slavery had economic benefits for enslaved

1177
00:44:24,585 --> 00:44:25,085
people,

1178
00:44:25,625 --> 00:44:26,445
while attacking

1179
00:44:26,824 --> 00:44:28,824
woke in public schools while in so called

1180
00:44:28,824 --> 00:44:30,824
woke in public schools while attacking what they

1181
00:44:30,824 --> 00:44:33,464
call gender ideology in public schools. So so,

1182
00:44:33,464 --> 00:44:35,480
you know, mean listen. If none of those

1183
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,159
things weren't happening, I wouldn't have written a

1184
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:38,219
book about them,

1185
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:40,219
and and

1186
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:42,839
it would have been better for everybody if,

1187
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:45,320
vouchers had gone the way of the evidence

1188
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,239
and and been discarded and left in a

1189
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,984
dustbin of, you know, discarded bad ideas,

1190
00:44:50,284 --> 00:44:52,444
right around 2019 or even the beginning of

1191
00:44:52,444 --> 00:44:53,885
2020. And then and,

1192
00:44:54,364 --> 00:44:56,045
but that's not what happened, and,

1193
00:44:56,525 --> 00:44:58,704
and, it's really unfortunate, I think.

1194
00:44:59,244 --> 00:45:02,204
Yeah. It it is, as you kinda speak

1195
00:45:02,204 --> 00:45:04,820
to this, it, you know, it causes a

1196
00:45:04,820 --> 00:45:06,519
sense of overwhelming

1197
00:45:07,219 --> 00:45:07,719
sort

1198
00:45:08,099 --> 00:45:10,420
of dread because as we see,

1199
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:13,559
as we see

1200
00:45:14,019 --> 00:45:17,079
the rhetoric, particularly coming from right wing spaces

1201
00:45:17,565 --> 00:45:18,464
Yeah. That is

1202
00:45:18,764 --> 00:45:19,264
decreasingly

1203
00:45:19,724 --> 00:45:21,585
fact based and decreasingly

1204
00:45:22,045 --> 00:45:23,505
evidence based where

1205
00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:25,824
it becomes that you can just say

1206
00:45:26,125 --> 00:45:28,204
you can spin things you wanna spin them,

1207
00:45:28,204 --> 00:45:30,464
and they're not critiqued. It's a little scary.

1208
00:45:30,809 --> 00:45:32,250
I I mean, we are in a world

1209
00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:35,070
where a former president of the United States

1210
00:45:35,930 --> 00:45:38,329
can incite a a a a riot at

1211
00:45:38,329 --> 00:45:40,969
the at the national capital because he falsely

1212
00:45:40,969 --> 00:45:43,050
claimed that he won, in in in the

1213
00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:45,369
election in 2020, and and a good chunk

1214
00:45:45,369 --> 00:45:46,430
of the country,

1215
00:45:47,154 --> 00:45:49,494
is willing to go along with that. And,

1216
00:45:49,954 --> 00:45:51,554
you know, so if we're in a world

1217
00:45:51,554 --> 00:45:52,054
where,

1218
00:45:52,514 --> 00:45:53,174
you know,

1219
00:45:53,554 --> 00:45:55,795
35% or so of the country is just

1220
00:45:55,795 --> 00:45:56,295
simply

1221
00:45:56,755 --> 00:45:59,090
adhering to this idea that that just to

1222
00:45:59,090 --> 00:46:00,150
name one example

1223
00:46:00,690 --> 00:46:02,849
that Donald Trump won of the election in

1224
00:46:02,849 --> 00:46:03,349
2020.

1225
00:46:03,890 --> 00:46:05,989
Then I'm not I'm not optimistic

1226
00:46:06,289 --> 00:46:07,030
that something,

1227
00:46:08,369 --> 00:46:10,449
you know, in some sense, on the surface

1228
00:46:10,449 --> 00:46:13,570
lower scale than about the than election denial

1229
00:46:13,570 --> 00:46:15,445
would be a voucher program. But if if

1230
00:46:15,445 --> 00:46:16,664
we're at a point where evidence

1231
00:46:17,125 --> 00:46:20,324
that that Donald Trump lost election 2020 is

1232
00:46:20,324 --> 00:46:21,545
is just discarded,

1233
00:46:22,085 --> 00:46:24,905
then I'm not optimistic that evidence that vouchers

1234
00:46:25,045 --> 00:46:27,224
hurt kids and families is gonna be discarded

1235
00:46:27,284 --> 00:46:29,109
or what, and it certainly hasn't been. And

1236
00:46:29,109 --> 00:46:30,630
in fact, many of the same right wing

1237
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:32,550
funders, frankly, that are behind, you know, that

1238
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:34,570
have supported election denial efforts,

1239
00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:38,889
are also

1240
00:46:45,805 --> 00:46:47,244
lot of these are and I talk about

1241
00:46:47,244 --> 00:46:48,325
that in the book of,

1242
00:46:48,765 --> 00:46:50,364
of folks who push all of these things,

1243
00:46:50,364 --> 00:46:51,585
but this is where we are.

1244
00:46:52,045 --> 00:46:52,545
Yeah.

1245
00:46:53,164 --> 00:46:56,065
Yeah. It's it's a little terrifying, and,

1246
00:46:56,765 --> 00:46:58,704
and I think it's, you know, it's interesting

1247
00:46:59,519 --> 00:46:59,760
because,

1248
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:01,140
you know,

1249
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,780
there are things that I

1250
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,900
am trying to feel optimistic about. Right?

1251
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:08,739
There was the documentary

1252
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,619
that actually, I think it drops today,

1253
00:47:12,855 --> 00:47:14,554
that focuses on the Republicans

1254
00:47:15,255 --> 00:47:18,695
that pushed back against the incitement of January

1255
00:47:18,695 --> 00:47:19,835
6th and who

1256
00:47:20,135 --> 00:47:21,034
took a stand,

1257
00:47:21,655 --> 00:47:24,454
against former president Trump and these things that

1258
00:47:24,454 --> 00:47:25,195
were happening,

1259
00:47:26,454 --> 00:47:27,414
but it's still

1260
00:47:28,039 --> 00:47:30,280
it's it still feels so discouraging because so

1261
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,199
much of you can I've been thinking about

1262
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:33,339
this a lot. I can throw

1263
00:47:33,639 --> 00:47:34,859
evidence and,

1264
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:35,900
information

1265
00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:37,820
at people, and

1266
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:40,119
it doesn't mean it's gonna gain any kind

1267
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:42,525
of traction. Right. I wanna but but let's

1268
00:47:42,525 --> 00:47:45,005
let's lean into the gloom and doom for

1269
00:47:45,005 --> 00:47:45,585
a second.

1270
00:47:46,764 --> 00:47:48,844
Wanna ask you really quickly because I think

1271
00:47:48,844 --> 00:47:49,344
that

1272
00:47:49,964 --> 00:47:52,284
in my experience in you know, I have

1273
00:47:52,284 --> 00:47:54,284
I have a I have one kid who

1274
00:47:54,284 --> 00:47:55,904
is a 2nd year college student.

1275
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:59,480
Yeah. And so Right. Yeah. So, you know,

1276
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,160
and of and it's funny because they they

1277
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,079
tell you you'll stop caring about what's happening

1278
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:05,079
in schools once your kid is out of

1279
00:48:05,079 --> 00:48:07,000
schools, and I'm like, yeah. But now my

1280
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,199
kid is advocating too, so we're advocating together

1281
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:11,954
on these kinds of things. But

1282
00:48:12,914 --> 00:48:13,414
what

1283
00:48:13,954 --> 00:48:15,494
what is the threat

1284
00:48:16,434 --> 00:48:17,894
posed by privatization

1285
00:48:18,195 --> 00:48:19,655
in general in education

1286
00:48:20,515 --> 00:48:21,175
and vouchers

1287
00:48:22,035 --> 00:48:22,775
in particular?

1288
00:48:23,235 --> 00:48:24,295
Why is this

1289
00:48:24,755 --> 00:48:26,135
a 5 alarm fire?

1290
00:48:26,594 --> 00:48:27,575
Well, in a very

1291
00:48:28,170 --> 00:48:30,730
technical sense, I suppose, you have to start

1292
00:48:30,730 --> 00:48:31,630
with money. So

1293
00:48:32,489 --> 00:48:34,109
states can't afford

1294
00:48:34,730 --> 00:48:37,230
to pay for 2 sectors of education

1295
00:48:37,769 --> 00:48:40,569
over the long run. You see in states

1296
00:48:40,569 --> 00:48:43,235
like Arizona, states like Ohio, states like Florida,

1297
00:48:43,235 --> 00:48:44,215
more than a $1,000,000,000,

1298
00:48:44,595 --> 00:48:46,454
a b with a 1,000,000,000 with a b

1299
00:48:46,515 --> 00:48:48,355
dollars are being spent each year on voucher

1300
00:48:48,355 --> 00:48:50,355
systems. That's money that's not going to,

1301
00:48:50,994 --> 00:48:52,535
first, it's not going to increasing

1302
00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:55,570
school school funds for public schools, but it's

1303
00:48:55,570 --> 00:48:57,489
also not going to improving, you know, environmental

1304
00:48:57,489 --> 00:48:59,030
quality, improving roads, improving,

1305
00:48:59,730 --> 00:49:00,389
you know,

1306
00:49:00,690 --> 00:49:03,170
health care system. So that's one thing. And

1307
00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:04,849
it's also you know, we touched on this

1308
00:49:04,849 --> 00:49:06,630
a few minutes ago. It's it's also

1309
00:49:08,255 --> 00:49:09,715
rooted in this philosophy

1310
00:49:10,094 --> 00:49:10,594
behind

1311
00:49:11,535 --> 00:49:12,434
American democracy

1312
00:49:12,735 --> 00:49:14,755
and public schools and education

1313
00:49:15,135 --> 00:49:15,635
that,

1314
00:49:16,175 --> 00:49:18,835
you know, coming together to solve common problems,

1315
00:49:18,974 --> 00:49:21,315
coming together to learn more about our differences,

1316
00:49:21,375 --> 00:49:22,755
coming together to

1317
00:49:23,159 --> 00:49:26,039
educate our children who are our quite literally

1318
00:49:26,039 --> 00:49:27,980
our future. Right? It's not metaphorically

1319
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:28,859
the children

1320
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:30,460
actually are tomorrow's

1321
00:49:30,839 --> 00:49:31,980
tomorrow's leaders.

1322
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:34,199
We're just gonna tell them that if they

1323
00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:35,019
don't like,

1324
00:49:36,704 --> 00:49:38,864
mom and dad don't like, we don't mom

1325
00:49:38,864 --> 00:49:39,925
and dad says

1326
00:49:40,545 --> 00:49:42,864
our our our our values don't align with,

1327
00:49:43,105 --> 00:49:44,864
you know, what what Joe's down the street

1328
00:49:44,864 --> 00:49:46,305
aligns. So we're not gonna let you near

1329
00:49:46,305 --> 00:49:47,985
them. We're not going to let you engage.

1330
00:49:47,985 --> 00:49:49,664
We're just gonna kinda take our coupon and

1331
00:49:49,664 --> 00:49:51,184
go to our school, and we're gonna send

1332
00:49:51,184 --> 00:49:52,839
Joe's kids to his school. Then we start

1333
00:49:52,839 --> 00:49:54,440
doing that in other parts of life, right,

1334
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,039
where it's like, well, I don't I I

1335
00:49:56,039 --> 00:49:57,639
don't wanna live in that neighborhood, and I

1336
00:49:57,639 --> 00:49:59,480
don't wanna work in that place. And we

1337
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:00,539
start just compartmentalizing.

1338
00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:04,460
Yeah. It's it's it's tribalism. It's it's it's

1339
00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:07,215
the the language that in in global history

1340
00:50:07,215 --> 00:50:07,954
is vulcanization.

1341
00:50:08,335 --> 00:50:10,335
They're just we're gonna sort of segment everybody

1342
00:50:10,335 --> 00:50:12,175
else out, and and no one's gonna have

1343
00:50:12,175 --> 00:50:14,255
to engage and have conflicting values and work

1344
00:50:14,255 --> 00:50:14,914
them out

1345
00:50:15,615 --> 00:50:17,155
as if it's the problem

1346
00:50:17,775 --> 00:50:20,380
of the, you know, individual groups that hold

1347
00:50:20,380 --> 00:50:22,699
those values. Right? It's That's right. That's right.

1348
00:50:22,699 --> 00:50:23,760
It's always the folks

1349
00:50:24,140 --> 00:50:27,019
that occupy, at least in this conversation with

1350
00:50:27,019 --> 00:50:29,280
vouchers, it's the folks who occupy the

1351
00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:30,160
center,

1352
00:50:33,255 --> 00:50:34,934
the the sort of the the the place

1353
00:50:34,934 --> 00:50:36,934
of power, the the the funding kind of

1354
00:50:37,014 --> 00:50:39,194
the historical legacy of privilege

1355
00:50:39,494 --> 00:50:40,635
that want to,

1356
00:50:41,014 --> 00:50:43,335
make an argument for keeping other folks away

1357
00:50:43,335 --> 00:50:43,994
from them

1358
00:50:44,869 --> 00:50:46,630
as if it's on behalf of those other

1359
00:50:46,630 --> 00:50:48,969
folks. Like, we just don't we we can't

1360
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:51,030
handle being around you, so we're gonna do

1361
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:52,869
you a favor and give you a voucher

1362
00:50:52,869 --> 00:50:54,230
so you don't have to be around us.

1363
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:55,289
Like, that's the argument.

1364
00:50:55,590 --> 00:50:56,489
Man, it is.

1365
00:50:57,054 --> 00:50:58,515
And that's so those

1366
00:50:59,054 --> 00:50:59,795
those philosophically,

1367
00:51:00,655 --> 00:51:03,074
from a standpoint of democracy, those stakes

1368
00:51:04,094 --> 00:51:06,255
are part of this whole conversation, and that's

1369
00:51:06,255 --> 00:51:08,574
part of what you know, the national, you

1370
00:51:08,574 --> 00:51:10,335
know, conversation going forward. But in a very,

1371
00:51:10,335 --> 00:51:12,900
very basic sense, what that means is vouchers

1372
00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:15,880
will defund your local public school. Yeah. Absolutely.

1373
00:51:16,019 --> 00:51:17,780
And I think, you know, I think there

1374
00:51:17,780 --> 00:51:19,380
is a there is something you and I

1375
00:51:19,380 --> 00:51:21,780
talked about before that is touched on in

1376
00:51:21,780 --> 00:51:24,659
the book where a statement, I believe, was

1377
00:51:24,659 --> 00:51:26,420
by Betsy DeVos that,

1378
00:51:27,155 --> 00:51:28,135
part of what's informing

1379
00:51:28,434 --> 00:51:31,234
this push is this idea that the school

1380
00:51:31,234 --> 00:51:32,695
has replaced the church.

1381
00:51:33,554 --> 00:51:35,394
We didn't get a chance really to talk

1382
00:51:35,394 --> 00:51:37,094
much about Christian nationalism

1383
00:51:37,635 --> 00:51:39,494
and how that piece

1384
00:51:40,034 --> 00:51:41,335
sort of is

1385
00:51:41,969 --> 00:51:44,929
extremely relevant to this whole conversation. Can you

1386
00:51:44,929 --> 00:51:47,170
unpack that just briefly so people can see

1387
00:51:47,170 --> 00:51:47,909
that connection?

1388
00:51:48,369 --> 00:51:50,869
Right. So none of this is particularly secret.

1389
00:51:51,010 --> 00:51:54,309
So Betsy DeVos has long lamented in public,

1390
00:51:54,369 --> 00:51:56,230
as has her husband and her family,

1391
00:51:56,824 --> 00:51:59,304
this idea that in their view, public schools

1392
00:51:59,304 --> 00:52:02,125
have taken over community centers instead of

1393
00:52:02,505 --> 00:52:05,625
churches. They they've public schools have displaced churches

1394
00:52:05,625 --> 00:52:07,804
in the center of American community life.

1395
00:52:09,784 --> 00:52:10,764
I find that

1396
00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:13,650
proposition laughable. Again, as someone who goes to

1397
00:52:13,650 --> 00:52:15,489
church every week, I mean, their churches are

1398
00:52:15,489 --> 00:52:17,010
very much In an in an era of

1399
00:52:17,010 --> 00:52:19,489
megachurches, nobody's going to church. Churches are very

1400
00:52:19,489 --> 00:52:21,409
much active parts of community life. But to

1401
00:52:21,409 --> 00:52:23,650
their in their view, church public schools are

1402
00:52:23,650 --> 00:52:24,630
are are doing this.

1403
00:52:25,090 --> 00:52:27,224
And, you know, they will say that. They

1404
00:52:27,224 --> 00:52:28,505
will they will make that case. What they

1405
00:52:28,505 --> 00:52:30,105
really mean is that religion is not as

1406
00:52:30,105 --> 00:52:31,864
central as they would like to be. Specifically,

1407
00:52:31,864 --> 00:52:33,784
their religion is not as central as they

1408
00:52:33,784 --> 00:52:35,244
would like to be in American life.

1409
00:52:36,344 --> 00:52:38,424
And, you know, that's part of the the

1410
00:52:38,424 --> 00:52:39,804
goal here. Just this morning,

1411
00:52:40,489 --> 00:52:42,589
the the investigative journalism outfit,

1412
00:52:42,889 --> 00:52:43,389
ProPublica,

1413
00:52:44,730 --> 00:52:46,889
issued a report early just this morning. It

1414
00:52:46,889 --> 00:52:48,250
happened to be quoted in, but they

1415
00:52:49,049 --> 00:52:50,650
the state of Ohio is now not only

1416
00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:53,784
funding vouchers, they're actually starting to give money

1417
00:52:53,784 --> 00:52:56,105
to religious schools to build new buildings and

1418
00:52:56,105 --> 00:52:58,344
to expand their capacity to take vouchers in

1419
00:52:58,344 --> 00:53:00,045
the first place. That's unprecedented.

1420
00:53:00,744 --> 00:53:02,985
Okay? This is, you know, this is that's

1421
00:53:02,985 --> 00:53:04,824
not happened before in the at least not

1422
00:53:04,824 --> 00:53:06,659
in the voucher world. So this is what

1423
00:53:06,659 --> 00:53:09,219
we're talking about is is a completely different

1424
00:53:09,219 --> 00:53:11,619
idea of what, education is in this country

1425
00:53:11,619 --> 00:53:13,699
and one that tracks very closely with, you

1426
00:53:13,699 --> 00:53:15,880
know, frankly, what what religious fundamentalists,

1427
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:18,760
believe, education should look like for everyone.

1428
00:53:19,094 --> 00:53:21,114
Yeah. I don't want people to miss that

1429
00:53:21,255 --> 00:53:22,635
piece of it because

1430
00:53:23,175 --> 00:53:24,074
it this

1431
00:53:24,375 --> 00:53:27,335
the the argument that has historically been framed

1432
00:53:27,335 --> 00:53:30,234
around vouchers isn't that's a bad faith argument.

1433
00:53:30,295 --> 00:53:32,375
It is not Yeah. It's not the argument

1434
00:53:32,375 --> 00:53:34,295
that they're living even if it's the one

1435
00:53:34,295 --> 00:53:35,750
that they are speaking.

1436
00:53:36,190 --> 00:53:38,530
So, just as we conclude,

1437
00:53:39,390 --> 00:53:41,390
what are what is it that folks can

1438
00:53:41,390 --> 00:53:41,890
do,

1439
00:53:42,750 --> 00:53:45,390
to to organize against these kinds of things?

1440
00:53:45,390 --> 00:53:45,890
To

1441
00:53:46,590 --> 00:53:48,670
what is it that you would have a

1442
00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:49,170
listener,

1443
00:53:49,674 --> 00:53:52,394
probably an educator, do when it comes to

1444
00:53:52,394 --> 00:53:53,694
vouchers, if anything?

1445
00:53:54,554 --> 00:53:56,954
Understand that that everything that we would do

1446
00:53:56,954 --> 00:53:57,755
starts with,

1447
00:53:58,394 --> 00:53:58,894
renewing,

1448
00:53:59,514 --> 00:54:03,114
commitment both financially and, philosophically and morally to

1449
00:54:03,114 --> 00:54:04,829
public schools. Every other

1450
00:54:05,630 --> 00:54:07,630
step requires funding. And it turns out that

1451
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:09,789
money does work. It it it's the right

1452
00:54:09,789 --> 00:54:11,630
thing to do, I happen to believe, funding

1453
00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:13,230
public schools, but it actually you know, we've

1454
00:54:13,230 --> 00:54:14,829
talked a lot about evidence on this on

1455
00:54:14,829 --> 00:54:17,469
this in this conversation. Yep. As the evidence

1456
00:54:17,469 --> 00:54:19,869
against vouchers has accumulated, so too has the

1457
00:54:19,869 --> 00:54:22,135
evidence that equalizing funding,

1458
00:54:25,155 --> 00:54:28,034
to to under resourced communities, investing in in

1459
00:54:28,034 --> 00:54:28,534
communities

1460
00:54:28,835 --> 00:54:31,234
actually pays off, and it pays off with

1461
00:54:31,234 --> 00:54:34,355
academics. It does improve academic outcomes. It does

1462
00:54:34,355 --> 00:54:37,380
improve high school graduation rates, but it also

1463
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:40,420
improves later in life outcomes like, wages,

1464
00:54:41,039 --> 00:54:43,059
for community, community income levels,

1465
00:54:43,679 --> 00:54:46,800
declines in community crime rates, all as a

1466
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,960
result of just simply investing in public schools

1467
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,420
and school communities. So

1468
00:54:50,815 --> 00:54:52,414
everything I would say, and I say this

1469
00:54:52,414 --> 00:54:54,335
in the book, everything I would say begins

1470
00:54:54,335 --> 00:54:56,255
with that. You must fund public schools, and

1471
00:54:56,255 --> 00:54:57,695
and then and then we move forward into

1472
00:54:57,695 --> 00:54:58,835
the conversation together.

1473
00:55:00,335 --> 00:55:02,494
Well, doctor Josh Cowan, this has been an

1474
00:55:02,494 --> 00:55:03,554
incredible conversation.

1475
00:55:04,015 --> 00:55:06,150
Thank you. Thank you for writing this book.

1476
00:55:06,789 --> 00:55:09,589
I I understand the these are not the

1477
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:12,309
the things that necessarily give us joy as

1478
00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:15,269
writers, but bringing this information to people in

1479
00:55:15,269 --> 00:55:17,589
the hopes that it does something. Folks, the,

1480
00:55:17,829 --> 00:55:20,469
book is The Privateers, How Billionaires Created a

1481
00:55:20,469 --> 00:55:23,614
Culture War and Sold School Vouchers, and it

1482
00:55:23,614 --> 00:55:25,454
officially dropped about a week ago. Am I

1483
00:55:25,454 --> 00:55:27,855
right? It did. Yeah. Thank you. At this

1484
00:55:27,855 --> 00:55:28,355
recording,

1485
00:55:28,655 --> 00:55:30,275
the book is now out.

1486
00:55:30,815 --> 00:55:32,655
I recommend that you order it from your

1487
00:55:32,655 --> 00:55:35,280
local independent bookstore. But if you don't have

1488
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:36,660
one that's close to you,

1489
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,360
get it from where you need to get

1490
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:39,860
it.

1491
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,400
What are some ways that people may be

1492
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:43,840
able to follow your other work? And we

1493
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,160
are gonna link that ProPublica report in the

1494
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,315
episode notes so people can kind of

1495
00:55:48,614 --> 00:55:50,855
see what the situation really is. How do

1496
00:55:50,855 --> 00:55:52,875
people follow your ideas and work?

1497
00:55:53,574 --> 00:55:55,574
I'm I'm all over social media for better

1498
00:55:55,574 --> 00:55:57,335
or worse. Before I put out sort of

1499
00:55:57,335 --> 00:55:58,394
my daily daily,

1500
00:55:58,775 --> 00:56:00,614
you know, message on this on this stuff.

1501
00:56:01,094 --> 00:56:02,474
You can follow-up on me.

1502
00:56:07,469 --> 00:56:08,049
I'm actually

1503
00:56:09,630 --> 00:56:10,210
working with Instagram,

1504
00:56:10,589 --> 00:56:12,190
all those sorts of things. And I'm they

1505
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:14,109
cross all those things. It's my name, Josh

1506
00:56:14,109 --> 00:56:16,510
Cowan. That's where it would start. And and

1507
00:56:16,510 --> 00:56:17,409
start with the book.

1508
00:56:17,735 --> 00:56:20,155
Yeah. Start with the book y'all, and, definitely,

1509
00:56:21,255 --> 00:56:24,135
we we would love to see others read

1510
00:56:24,135 --> 00:56:24,795
this book.

1511
00:56:25,494 --> 00:56:25,994
Folks,

1512
00:56:26,375 --> 00:56:28,855
that is it for this episode. Hit us

1513
00:56:28,855 --> 00:56:31,114
up till we pause what you thought.

1514
00:56:31,820 --> 00:56:34,139
Definitely give the book a look. Follow doctor

1515
00:56:34,139 --> 00:56:35,440
Cowen on social media.

1516
00:56:36,139 --> 00:56:38,300
Follow this issue. I think he would say

1517
00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:40,539
the same thing is follow this issue probably

1518
00:56:40,539 --> 00:56:41,840
more than anything else.

1519
00:56:42,219 --> 00:56:42,719
And,

1520
00:56:43,260 --> 00:56:44,699
you know, get in touch with us. If

1521
00:56:44,699 --> 00:56:46,824
you are listening to us on Apple Podcast,

1522
00:56:46,885 --> 00:56:48,984
throw a 5 star review on there,

1523
00:56:49,684 --> 00:56:50,085
and,

1524
00:56:50,804 --> 00:56:52,804
thank you for listening to Keto Keepers in

1525
00:56:52,804 --> 00:56:54,344
a mic. Stay dope, y'all.