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306.
What is going
on everybody?
Welcome back to 2 dope teachers
and a mic, the most dangerous podcast in
the schoolhouse.
It is I, Gerardo Munoz, your Elosopher
King.
I am back.
It's been a really long absence,
and,
I hope to chop that up a little
bit for you,
today before we get into a great interview.
If you are new to the show, welcome
to Dope Nation
Has No Borders.
We have an open border policy, which is
not popular to say during an election year.
But we don't really care. We're not running
for election except
to win the election for your hearts
and minds.
That's what we're hoping to do. But if
you are new, you can follow us on
most social media platforms at Twodoteachers.
We are on Instagram. We are still on
x formerly known as Twitter.
Although I don't even know why anymore.
We're on,
TikTok because I'm still waiting for Chris Dear
to teach me how to make a TikTok.
I might just start messing around. It might
just be ugly for a little bit.
We're also on Facebook. Like us at 2
Dope Teachers and Mike.
You can also send us an email, 2dopeeteachers@gmail.com.
And
you know, it'd be really dope if we
got some financial support. I know that we've
been a little bit AWOL over the last,
almost 7 months.
And I'm gonna talk a little bit about
that as we, as we dive in today's
episode
with,
with the author of Daphne Draws Data,
Cole,
Cole Nussbaummer at Netflix.
We'll have that interview for you in just
a moment. But,
head over to patreon.com/tudopeteachers.
We actually support a couple of creators there,
even though we've lost some of our financial
support. It's just really important that creatives all
support each other. So please feel free to
head over there
and support us.
Okay.
I have a little bit of a trigger
warning for you.
The next few minutes
will deal with death and loss and
grieving and mental health struggles.
And
I understand that these are not abstract,
topics
for a lot of us out here, including
me.
They're real.
They exist for real.
And,
you shouldn't have to deal with grief
and trauma and loss
outside of your own terms.
So feel free to jump ahead a few
minutes if this is just not something you're
here for. But I wanna get a few
things off my chest.
I wanna talk about,
why it's been such a long absence, why
it's been since the end of February, since
you've heard from us. The last episode
that we published was with
one of my colleagues, the amazing,
doctor Richard Charles,
chief of information and technology.
I like to call him the minister of
information,
in my school district. Just just a wonderful,
thoughtful,
smart guy,
who I'm just so lucky to know. So
you can check that out, but if you
haven't heard anything from us since then, there
hasn't been anything since then. It's been a
lot going on and those of you that
I'm closer to may know this a little
bit.
Also Kevin's not here. I'll talk a little
bit about that as well in this open.
So the so
I'm getting close to
actually
mating mating
making this thing happen that I've been working
towards over,
over the last,
you know, almost 4 years. Well, 3 years,
I'll say 3 years,
working on my PhD.
I actually am now at this recording finished
with coursework.
It's kind of crazy to be here. I've
taken a lot of classes.
I got to a point in the spring
where it was like,
okay,
I can either just keep on taking 2
classes at a time and do the best
that I can and just finish when I
finish, or
I can just bite the bullet
and get through it
and make it happen
for myself.
I talked to my advisor.
I said,
I think I can take 4 classes
because it's just 9 weeks. It's gonna be
okay.
And she kind of looked at me and
said, well, I mean it's gonna be a
lot but if you think you can do
it, do it. So I guess your plan
is you'll just
die and then
be done.
And so and I knew I would have
to take a summer class too. So I
took a summer class in an independent study,
and I finished my coursework. I I think
that makes me ABD all but dissertation,
and that's kinda cool and some of us
in my cohort are entertaining the possibility. You
know, a b d is not bad. A
b d is not bad. We can stay
a b d.
But now I'm kinda getting into the really
accountable part. And in a lot of ways,
the harder part, which is writing my dissertation.
Trying to make some time, trying to set
time aside. I've got a writing support group.
We meet once a week over lunch and
we just write and we take care of
what we need to take care of and
that's been really cool. It's actually made me
want to write more, and I'm feeling really
motivated. But essentially between January August, I took
8 classes, 8 or 9 classes.
And now I'm kinda done and now I'm
kinda done with taking classes like I know
there's a lot of us and especially,
members of Tudo nation are intellectuals. We love
to learn. We love to have new experiences
and uncover new knowledge.
And, many of us, my myself included have
said at times,
man, I could just stay in class forever.
I just wanna take classes forever. I could
be in school forever.
And,
you know what y'all?
I think I cannot
be enrolled in a class in school for
a while.
I think I think that's okay. I don't
mind right now because I'm exhausted.
That took a really heavy
toll.
In that time my father's
health declined
pretty significantly and he had been out here
about a year ago
to watch my kid graduate high school. It
was so beautiful to have him here. It
was also amazing that he was here in,
spring of 2023
to watch the Denver Nuggets not only eliminate
the Lakers by a sweep.
Sorry not sorry to my, to my Lakers
fans
slash citizens of 2 do 2 dope nation.
We had our whole basketball life together and
he introduced me to basketball and in a
lot of like in a lot of ways
not not even a lot of ways. He's
the reason that basketball came into my life.
And, so it's just beautiful and healing for
that to occur. So but ever since he
had come out, I had started to see
some of the signs. He his health
had been declining. His mental capacity
was
declining.
Turns out that in American society and in
a white supremacist,
place,
it's hard to be a small under educated
brown man. Really intelligent and under ended an
undereducated
brown man.
I was in the Seattle area visiting family.
My amazing niece, shout out cat,
graduated high school in June and I think
at this recording has now started college.
Shout out to my little sister,
who gets to it's not an empty nest
that house is never an empty nest,
but has one of,
her babies,
miles and miles away,
which I can relate to.
I was out there for my niece's graduation
and,
and my dad's health was really bad. I
don't even know
if we had many conversations
there.
He had been dealing with a lot of
things including,
dialysis for almost 10 years
and,
and complications from diabetes.
He had recently had toes on one of
his feet amputated and the infection spread. So
when I was out there, he had to
have,
most of his lower leg amputated to stop
the infection.
I could sense that he was defeated. He
was even joking,
you know, before they admitted him where someone
at where the admitting nurse asked
him, how tall are you? And he said
short.
And we kind of laughed. My dad always
had a sense of humor.
On June 27th,
at about 9:12
pm while I was on a
desperate flight
to get to him,
as he
went into cardiac arrest after a dialysis treatment.
My wife went to be with the ancestors.
I wasn't there at the moment that he
took his last breath.
I'm mad because my flight was an hour
late
taking off out of DIA and part of
me feels like if it had left on
time, I would have at least been there
to watch him take his last breath.
And he's gone.
So I was this I was quite a
scene,
running through the airport,
on the phone with my sister, on the
phone with my wife,
crying.
Y'all,
and I'm in therapy now. I I actually
had gotten myself set up with a therapist
when I was on my way out to
be with him that last time.
And I'm glad that I'm in therapy now.
Please do therapy. Don't do therapy because you're
going through a hard time.
Do therapy because
you need it for your
for your mental, psychological,
contentedness conditioning.
Like if you're gonna compete in the Olympics,
you don't just start going to the gym
the day before your first match. Like, you
have to be doing it consistently.
So when you're strong, when you're challenged the
most.
And,
I think I will always
I think I'll be in therapy for the
rest of my life and that's not a
bad thing. It's a good thing.
Please do it.
So
grief is,
a wild thing.
And then compounded
with my job which has extremely high pressure
in the summer to put on our new
educator event. Check out my LinkedIn. I was
really proud of that event.
And,
you know, getting my kid ready for their
2nd year of college and, you know, I've
heard other parents
whose kids have moved on to college say
you never really get used to it and
it's true. Like, we didn't have as much
stuff to buy. It wasn't as stressful,
But I'm still not used to leaving without
my kid.
So we did that and
and I started missing y'all.
I had made so many other things so
much more important, and I hadn't set time
aside for
the listeners of 2DOPE nation. And I just
have to, like,
express gratitude to all of you,
because
there are some of you who continue to
financially support us even considering how inconsistent we've
been
over
the last really the last couple of years
since I left teaching and since Kev became
an assistant principal.
But especially in the last few months. And
then I went into our podcasting,
our hosting platform that gathers our stats.
Y'all are still accessing our stuff
to the tune of of 30 to 50
listens a day.
Am I and I'm just speechless about that
because people are are still hoping to hear
us
take the air regardless of how long it
takes. So I just wanna extend some gratitude
to you
and to give you a commitment that these
stories really
matter to me.
Gonna take a quick break,
and when I come back I'm gonna talk
about some changes that you're about to see
in 2Dope Nation, on the 2 Dope Teachers
in a Mic podcast, and 2 Dope productions
overall.
And we're gonna talk about
Daphne Draws data.
Stay with me on 2 Dope Teachers in
a Mic.
So Lotte might be asking yourselves,
where's Kev at?
Where where is Kev?
Is Kev disappeared? Has
he renounced his citizenship?
He is not.
Kev and I stay really close. We're both
really close and and at some point we're
gonna bring you a conversation between us where
we talk about how much,
our mindsets have shifted since leaving the classroom.
Now Kevin is still in a school as
an assistant principal,
which is a beautiful thing because
even though being an administrator
can be almost as thankless as being a
teacher,
you know, we need people like Kevin going
into leadership
and being there for kids. And so just
like if you see him in life, if
you are connected to him at all, you're
not gonna see him on social media. This
is not where he does this thing.
Give him a shout, tell him what's up,
tell him he's still too dope.
We're changing the format a little bit here
at 2 Dope Teachers and a Mic,
because of the overwhelming,
pressure that we both have, in our day
to day work and how exhausted we often
are.
We Kevin and I will be doing about
one conversation,
per month. And that might be an interview.
It may just be the 2 of us
chopping it up.
But that's about what is sustainable and honestly,
what we can coordinate between the 2 of
us being so busy.
So that's what we're gonna get. But in
the meantime, what you're going to get is
you're gonna get some guest hosts.
I have a couple of really awesome,
episodes coming up where you'll get to hear
a guest host. And we'll also do a
little bit of storytelling.
The new dope teachers on the mic series
will be dropping,
in the near future. And those are gonna
be stories and not just interviews. So this
is a thing that I'm really getting excited
about. I'm trying to be a writer as
you know, if you subscribe to my substack
you've seen it.
Trying to be a writer and I hope
that I could get myself back into a
space where I have the energy for writing.
I love writing my hands ache to write.
And so I I feel like this, change
in format will help me do that. And
really one of, the big,
inspirations
for,
you know, building my skill as a podcast
writer has come from this amazing podcast called,
The Troubles Podcast and it's about,
The Troubles, the conflict,
over Northern Ireland,
and this
incredible
podcast host and storyteller who tells these stories.
So,
I'm really gonna try to,
take
Philosopher's pen to Philosopher's page, and try to
make this happen.
So what you're gonna hear today is an
interview
with Cole Nussbaum or Naflick.
Cole is dope.
Cole reached out to me and I failed
to,
meet with her a couple of different times,
but she's written this phenomenal book called Daphne
Daphne Draws Data. And it's this wonderful little
children's book about a little dinosaur named Daphne
and her brother Declan.
Cole talks about how much she loves alliteration
and how to
really
get kids excited about storytelling with data.
How
how storytelling with data can be an iterative
process. And actually Cole does this work for
adults as well. And she had done this,
prior to writing Daphne, the Daphne draws data.
What she talks about is like puzzles, the
application of data in understanding things better,
numbering,
graphing
stories. There's a really great part of the
book that we talk about where
Daphne is trying to help some monkeys solve
the, mystery of of disappearing bananas.
And so Daphne who loves to draw, her
learning
draws out where all the banana peels are
and figures out,
who the culprit is and what they're doing.
So it's just really wonderful.
It's something that I really believe in and
I take back even to my work as
a as a history teacher. You engage through
the story and you teach along the way
and it's beautiful. There's one thing I wanna
name
that reflects a bias
from my perspective and I'm gonna own this.
I was gonna edit it but I'm like,
no, I wanna name this and I wanna
try to model the type of transparent
and,
the kind of transparent
critical self reflection we all need when we're
working
towards a more just
and equitable education experience.
So multiple times I reveal in
maybe it was just a couple times, but
a couple of different times I reveal
to the audience, if you're listening carefully,
my assumption
that Daphne draws data
because the main character
is named Daphne and because the author is
a woman,
is a cis woman
and
because,
you know,
it's about data that the purpose of the
book was to encourage girls to feel more
confident about math.
And so there's a couple of questions that
I ask in Cole, you know,
bless her soul
for being so patient.
It sort of gently pushes back and said,
actually, this is for like
everyone.
Like kids across the board don't have an
overall positive
feeling
about learning math and doing math. Like, at
some point they start to
doubt themselves and and we exchange stories about
how
my kid and her daughter had
expressed
insecurities
when it came to
doing math, being good at math,
and feeling like they could be successful in
math, let alone engaged.
And so I just wanna call that out
because, yeah, there are some pinks and Daphne's
a girl and all this kind of or
Daphne's a female dinosaur. I would, you know,
which whatever the way I'm like thinking about
this, there's a lot lot to interrogate there
for another episode.
So I I was kinda operating on these
assumptions and Cole Cole is just amazing about
doing this.
You should buy the book. It actually dropped
a few days ago. It is out. It
is available for public for a purchase.
We'll have that in the show notes of
this episode.
But we have a really fun conversation, and
I would just love for you to sit
back and listen
to
the power of storytelling with data
and the belief that we can instill in
our kids that we can all do complicated
things.
Cole Nussbaum or Netflix, author of Daphne Draws
Data
here on 2 Dope Teachers and a Mic.
Yo. What's going on 2 Dope Nation?
As we have said,
like,
we we have this amazing guest today, and
I love books y'all. I don't know if
you know this,
but I just have a lot of books.
I've realized it in my old age. I
probably own more books than I have years
left in life, and that's kind of a
weird thing to think about.
But it's always so exciting to have,
to have authors on here, particularly children's
authors.
So we've got this amazing,
opportunity here to talk to a children's book
author. As I said at the top, author
of Daphne
Draws Data. We have Cole Nussbaumer
Nafleck. Cole, how are you today?
Hi, Gerardo. I am doing great. Looking forward
to chatting with you. No doubt. No doubt.
So this is such an important topic, and
we're so happy to bring it to our
listeners here at the beginning of the school
year. Because one of the persistent challenges
that we
see in schools is this disconnect,
between students and math that often breaks along
gender lines. And so we're gonna talk about
this book.
If you haven't seen the book, we will
give you ways to access it and to
get the materials and all that kind of
stuff. But I kinda wanna start off with,
just a little bit about you, Cole.
So
talk to us a little bit about your
background, about how you kind of found your
way into mathematics
and how that led to you
coming up with a book.
Yes. So I when I think back, you
know, elementary school,
middle school, high school, I always really enjoyed
math. And I think it was because I
liked this idea of there being a puzzle
and pieces that you could put together in
a logical way. And you could come up
with an answer and it was clearly right
or wrong. Right.
And that that played well, I think, just
with my general,
the way that my brain worked.
I ended up majoring
in math in university, which I would not
have foreseen going into it. And in fact,
I can remember the very first test that
I had in
university. And, you know, it was one of
those massive lecture halls with 300 students. And
I
totally and I'd never been one to have
real test anxiety, but I completely blanked. And
that was not a good experience. But I
stuck with the math and,
got over that. You.
Yeah. And well, and then coming out of
university with, it was an applied math degree.
So I did computer programming, a lot of
math, a lot of science, and I really
liked the
application of math. So not just, you know,
how do you make the numbers work together,
but how do you use them to understand
something better and then use that to help
other people understand things better? And so I
work myself pretty quickly into analytical
sort of roles. I was working in banking
and then at Google,
and I was working with numbers. Right? I
had a good statistics background, and so I
was building models and doing all this complicated
stuff behind the scenes. But then at the
end of the day, I needed to be
able to put that into words that made
sense to someone else.
And not only words, but pictures. And so
that was when I really started
making graphs and understanding
what works when it comes to visualizing data
for communicating it to others,
what doesn't.
Fast forward that a whole lot, and we
can dig into any of this more if
you want to. But I started a company
called Storytelling with Data
where we teach
grown ups adults how to communicate with numbers.
How do you make a good graph
and not just how do you visualize the
data, but how do you then take that
and weave it into
a story and get your audience's attention,
bring them new understanding
and motivate them to act or to make
a smarter decision than they might otherwise have?
So my experience
writing,
thus far has been all in the grown
up business sphere. So I have 3 business
books,
that take the things that we teach in
our workshops and and codify them into books
for adults.
And so this is the new adventure with
Daphne.
Oh, that no. That's so you're talking about
storytelling with data and very selfishly,
I'm like, this could be useful in my
dissertation.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That kind of stuff. Let's
just dig into that a little bit because
I think and we were talking a little
bit off mic about
how there seems to be a status quo
around math instruction
and like existing in math, particularly in ECE
through 12 spaces
that math has to be abstract. It has
to be disconnected.
It has to be taught and learned in
exactly the same way it was always taught
and learned. And it sounds like a little
bit of what you're talking about
represents a little bit of a disruption
to
that line of thinking. Is that part of
what kind of drives your approach with numbers?
It does. Because I think if I look
back to myself, I I appreciated the way
math was taught. You know, the rote, the
memorization, the the logic that that worked for
my brain. That doesn't work though for,
I mean, maybe the majority of people's brains,
but certainly not for everyone.
And you're absolutely right that that we take
numbers at that age when we're teaching them
and make them so abstract that they lose
meaning. And it doesn't seem interesting
where I think there are so many interesting
practical applications that we can bring to kids.
And honestly, it was so for me, just,
life wise, as I was building my business
and writing the business books, I also had
a growing family. And so I have 3
kids. They're now ages
11,
10, and 8. And Okay. For me that
was really
I think what made me think about trying
to do something for a younger audience. Because
I had this idea gnawing in my head.
Because every adult that you encounter who when
I explain what I do or when we
go in and we do workshops or they
read the book,
oftentimes the first response is, I wish I'd
known this sooner. Wish that someone had taught
me this earlier. So you get that. And
then at the same time, I'm watching
these tiny people and their brains develop,
and they learn really complicated things like how
to speak a language at a really good
age. It's so true. And it's by repetition
and by being immersed in it. And it
really seems to me that, you know, if
you take graphs, which are a visual language,
that's something that we could be teaching so
much sooner. And if we did it in
a way that actually
appealed to kids, that helped them learn about
themselves and the world around them, helps them
make smarter decisions,
then it it doesn't feel like math is
work. It feels like math is suddenly becomes
this magical
power that they can use in really interesting
ways.
So I think of you know, I see
my kids come home not with many graphs,
but when they do, it's, you know, well,
we graphed the weather in January. Right? We
live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. You experienced the weather
in January. You know it was You experience
the weather in January. You know, it was
miserable. You don't need a graph. The bar
chart isn't going to tell you anything new.
You're not gonna gain any new insights.
Right. Move from What if we have you
collect, you know,
information on when you go to bed each
night and when you wake up in the
morning and how you feel that next morning?
Maybe we could find some insights where you
feel judged by the fact. Yeah.
Not you. The the grand you. Right? Yeah.
Absolutely. Where you could collect some data and
look at things together and maybe walk away
with a new understanding
that would help explain things or help you
make different decisions.
I think as a kid, that would be
super empowering.
No doubt. No. And I find that really
exciting myself. Like, I in my current work,
I support new teachers and future teachers. And
I think,
you know, now probably more than ever, there's
more,
pressure and expectations
that,
the teachers be able to make content
relevant, authentic,
and engaging. And so
what you're talking about seems to bring all
these things
kinda together.
As you kinda talk, I I think about,
the paraphrasing that quote, we can do hard
things. This is like, we can do complicated
things.
Say more about
developmentally,
why it is that we we seem to
like, we were missing this opportunity
to start teaching complex mathematical concepts and applications
by waiting too long. What is it that
you understand developmentally that allows for that opportunity?
Yeah. This is a great question. And I
think it likely has to do with just
I mean, part of it, I think, is
just how things have been done historically. That,
you know, you start with the foundation, you
start with addition and subtraction, these building blocks,
and go from there.
Yeah.
And when so one thing that, you know,
I just compare and contrast the way I
learned things with how my kids are being
taught now.
And Right. One of the things that has
been great is they have, you know, really
tactile things. So when they're learning to count
by fives or by tens or they're multiplying,
they have, you know, blocks and, like, and
things that they're using to physically
play out these scenarios. But that's where I
think the opportunity is missed because it's like,
you know, it's a block, whereas it could
be something more meaningful. You know, if we
wanna teach kids how to start thinking about
their
allowance
and how that can change over time, like
coins or, you know, there's these simple swaps
that could be made, I think, in some
places that would take something from being
more abstract to less abstract or more meaningful,
or where we can draw really specific connections
to kids.
The the visual piece is very interesting to
me because
when, you know, if you take a graph
when a graph is designed
well
and has either pictures or words to support
it, it just is intuitive where you're meant
to look and what you're meant to see.
And so it can actually by taking information
and numbers and making them visual, you can
make it
more accessible
even if you don't have, you know, the
understanding of statistics or you don't need all
of the foundation to get there.
And right now, you know, I think, again,
back to my learning, I didn't encounter a
graph in a meaningful way until college. And
even then, it wasn't you know, I came
out of college not really, you know, I
graphed some things in chemistry, I think. Sure.
But it wasn't until I got into the
working world where this became
the
way that people
talk to one another
Yeah. To a large degree, and even more
now that data has found its way into
so many
industries and roles. Basically, everybody touches it in
some way or another.
That the
the ability
to not only make a graph, but also
look at 1 and ask smart questions, or
form the questions in the first place to
be able then understand what data you could
collect and go out and do it. You
know,
there's some of this is taught in science
of, you know, you develop your hypothesis,
you gather the data, you revisit your hypothesis
that I think that merged with math
and the visual aspect could be really interesting.
Right? Because then you get a little bit
of the art and the creative piece in
as well.
So I think, you know, as I think
back to when
yeah. I don't I'm trying to think when
exactly it was that math was no longer
kinda cool as a female.
Yeah. And I think it was probably around
something I was gonna ask for sure. I
think for me, it was probably around middle
school, and and I didn't care. I you
know, for myself, I I was the smart
kid persona was fine with me, and I
stuck with math, and I enjoyed it. But
that wasn't the case for many people. And
I think in some cases, it's because,
oh, you know, it's it's rule based.
There's no room for creativity.
These are all falsehoods that go into it
when
there are so many different ways you can
get to the quote, unquote, right answer. And
I think when you bring the visual piece
in, then
you can have maybe also more interesting conversations
about the,
I think, the wrong answers or the answers
that weren't Yeah. For in in that case.
Yeah. I I think there's a lot,
there's a lot to that. And I think
and I man, I do not need to
mansplain this to you. You know this better
than than I do. I'll do it. But
the yeah. Don't worry. But one thing that
I know and I in doing some readings
to to to just kind of get myself
in the in the mindset to have this
conversation,
there is this argument that there are, like,
natural differences between boys and girls when it
comes to math that that boys are just
naturally better. Like, you hear people say this
all the time. Right? Don't like that. Yeah.
I don't like that at all. Because and
and especially having raised a daughter to myself
who's now like, to adulthood, who's now a
second year college student,
I think that
exactly what you're describing is what I
witnessed,
and I would venture to say that my
daughter's a little bit younger than you. So
that says that things
that some of these assumptions have persisted over
a long period of time. Yeah. And so
the
the middle school thing is something that I've
read about a little bit that when gender
stereotypes
are present, even in a passive way,
it tends to impact the way girls perform
in math
more than any other subject.
And so I sometimes think
that why no. Not sometimes. I think that
so much of it is about the story
that we tell
about girls in math. What are some of
the ways like, we know that there are
the really
the really sort of brash and offensive,
like, blatant ways that these stories are communicated.
Can you think of any ways that these
stories are kind of implicitly communicated that that
girls even in 2020 4 are still receiving
this message that because their girls are not
good at this.
And that's one I did not let you
plan for. So it just kinda came to
my head.
It's little ways. Right? And I don't have
the answer to this. Just my experience
with it and the things that I've seen.
I mean, imagine if you close your eyes
and imagine a math kid. Right? Imagine a
kid
who loves
math. I don't know about you, but I
I picture and for me, it's not necessarily
a boy or a girl, but it's, like,
nerdy glasses.
Like Yeah. It just it's this stereotype Pocket
protector.
Exactly. It's this Right. Stereotype that it's, like,
the the uncool
smart
kid, like, that that they're the only ones
who are going to like
math. Right. And I think oftentimes
it's
at the
opposite end of the spectrum of things like
sports or art. So physical things or creative
things, and it Yep. Really doesn't have to
be. No. And in fact, when you can
approach math from some of these other lenses,
I think it there's so much to add
in terms of
the
quality of the conversations that can be had
and, you know, the kinds of questions that
we ask and dig into. Because I think
one of the things that struck me just
watching my kids develop and, you know, acquire
language and just their brains and how they're
just sponges is just how naturally
curious kids are. They ask
so many questions.
They really do. Yeah. I was in New
York recently with my 3 kids, and I
was always one of them was walking next
to me as we're walking through the city,
and it was literally question after question after
question after question. Because they just they wanna
know. They're filling in their pieces of the
puzzle of how the world works and why
things are the way they are. And
that natural cure we stop that over time.
We we stop asking questions. We start making
assumptions or we just take what other people
have given.
And I think the but that innate questioning
works so
well if we can hone it for the
right sort of analytical thinking. Like, this is
the time when we should be teaching logical
problem solving because they've already got all the
questions. We can teach them how to answer
their own questions in smart ways. That would
be incredibly powerful
and also take a big burden off of
me as mother.
That's no. I remember it. It's so funny.
Yep. You and and you've got my brain,
like, on fire right now. Like, I feel
like I just have so many questions and
so many things that I wanna talk to
you about when it comes to, like, learning
and math and that kinda thing. But on
that last point, I think this is why
my grandmother bought me one of those big
red encyclopedias
because I was full of questions. Look at
that. And I remember asking her what was
what's the difference between
a condor, a vulture, and a buzzard? And,
she's like, I don't know. Let's look in
the book. And of course that, like, that
was a way to get her off the
hook and me diving into and there is
a difference. I won't go into it on
the show, but there is a significant difference
between those 3
birds. But, yeah, I think to that point,
I'm gonna remember because you looked it up.
It wasn't just a pattern. Even know how
old I was. Like Yep. Yeah. Exactly. And
I still there are times that I'm like,
I'm almost 50 years old, and I'm like,
where'd that book ever go? Like, you know?
You'd like to consult it. Yeah. I really
did. So, I mean but what's really interesting
is, you know, you kinda mentioned about
diff different factors
or did or just a reality that we
stop asking questions,
and we start operating on assumptions. Or maybe
we just, like, know stuff, and we think
that it Yeah. But I think we think
we know more than we do.
I well, my gosh. A 1000%. I was
just looking at some reactions to polling data
in this election, and I think, man, we
really think we know a lot.
I'm not gonna catch that one. Yeah. We
you know, that's I mean, we we're closer
to November. Maybe we can reconnect.
But but I think I think it is
one of those things where we do stop
asking questions. And I think that
a lot of times adults are complicit
in that cessation of questioning.
I remember learning I so I used to
teach middle and high school social studies, and
I remember finding out that there was
a a girl, 11 years old,
who
one of her teachers, I will not say
which one,
had put a limitation of questions that she
was allowed to ask during class. Oh. Said
you can Does that sound a signal? 2
questions
during class. And, you know, she and the
other kids kinda laughed it off, and I
was like, this is not okay because I
was a history teacher. You have to be
able to ask questions Yeah. In in any
classroom, and and I and that mystified me.
And then I think about
all of the kids that I met at
age 11 who are so goofy and inquisitive
and curious and wanna know so much,
a lot of them by the time they
were juniors or seniors in my classes,
their level of engagement had really tailed off.
And I'm sure there's a lot of factors,
lot of things go into it, but some
of it is that we don't honor this.
And I think what you're saying oh, man.
I was just in a meeting last week,
where
what you're saying runs so counter
to some of the conversation about mathematics instruction
that we're not in we're not encouraging
curiosity.
It's it's about getting on level. It's about
proficiency with skills, and those things are important.
Yeah. But
the question is how do we get there?
And I think that's so powerful.
And just on your specific example, just some
slight reframing
could have turned that situation from instead of
it
squashing curiosity to helping hone it. Right. What
if instead it was write down every question
you have and then pick your 2 most
interesting or your 2 best questions and we'll
dive into those? That puts a completely different
framework on Oh, yeah.
That exchange
and,
yeah, how the student then feels of what
their their questions in general
and still gives the same message. Right. Don't
ask a single one because maybe it gets
us off track, but don't kill that urge.
Just own it in a way that it's
going to work for all of us. Yeah.
What what we ended up doing, and it
wasn't an issue for me. Like, I'm all
I was always mindful about airtime for other
kids. But what I ended up what I
ended up saying to her, I was like,
no. I mean, you do ask a lot
of questions. It's actually super cool that you
do that because how do you learn things
if you don't ask questions? Like and I
was like, so so what I want like,
I I just wanna answer all your questions
right now, but I know that maybe not
everybody wants to be a part of our
conversation.
But why don't you write those things down,
and let's just work through them, like, you
know, when we get a chance. And and
she was thrilled to have this, and it
was just and some of them were silly
questions because she was 11.
But they were great. And I and I
think yes to to the,
fostering of that kind of curiosity.
Well, I'm so I'm so excited to get
into the conversation about the book.
The book is called Daphne Draws Data, and
we will get into
the creation of that book,
what Cole is hoping to accomplish with it,
the impact it's already had,
when we get back from this message from
our sponsor.
What up, everybody? Welcome
back
to,
2 Dope Teachers and Mike. I believe we're
at episode 303
at this point. Something like that. Yeah. So
Definitely.
And, yeah, we've been around for a good
minute.
You know, we are the podcast
that,
that just won't go away apparently
after the hiatus.
Also, thank you everybody for just your support
during our 3 month hiatus. Me and Kev,
we're we're, like, we're experiencing transitions in life
and work,
but we are dedicated
to continuing
to bring you disruptive content.
We are the most dangerous podcast in the
schoolhouse for a reason,
and bringing you things that are just gonna
remix,
our thinking about certain things. And in this
case, we're remixing the conversation
on girls and mathematics,
with,
with Cole Nussbaum and Affleck,
author of multiple books, but specifically talking about
Daphne
Draws
Data. So I'm super excited about first of
all, great title.
And,
I think that it's just so eye catching
when it comes to, like, what's within the
book. But wanna give you a moment to
sort of talk a little bit about
how did this book come to be, and
what might people find in it? When, not
if, when people show up to Dope Nation
when they purchase this book and, bring it
to kids.
Yes. So,
Daphne is a delightful,
friendly
dragon
who, gets a little bit chastised
by her brother because
she has a unique talent. She really loves
to draw. And the thing she loves to
draw more than anything else
is data. She likes to make graphs and
help others solve their problems.
And so she gets chastised for her brother
for that not being a dragon y and
her sort of Her brother Declan. I wanna
know. Her brother Declan. I am not a
fan of alliteration. Hopefully I don't get too
far with that.
And so Daphne ventures out of the cave,
in search of a place where she can
be herself and be appreciated for being herself.
So she meets many friends on her journey.
She goes to the jungle.
She goes under the sea,
even out of this world to outer
space and each location. Alien.
Yeah. Over here on this Yeah. It's a
good adventure with some aliens.
And along each of her adventures,
she encounters,
you know, a group who's having an issue
that she helps by drawing data. So asking
a question, collecting data,
drawing it into a very pictorial version of
a graph
and then solving their problem. And so in
each case, she quickly becomes their friend because,
as I mentioned, she's delightful,
but realizes, you know, she's still she's a
dragon, so she still doesn't fit into these
places.
Right. And then by the end of her
journey I don't know. Should I give away
the ending?
It's it's up to you.
So she learns that she actually she can
be appreciated for her uniqueness
and for her talents
and realizes that she can help solve problems
at home in the way that she has,
on her adventures.
It's it's a happy ending. A hero's journey.
Heroines. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right.
Shero's journey. Definitely. So,
like, what was it that motive? Because you'd
mentioned early
that you were more you you had written
a lot of books for adult readers, particularly
along the same lines. Right? Around the house.
It's exactly the same lines. It's really funny.
Yeah. It's this combination of graphs and
story.
And so it seemed to make a lot
of sense to then have a children's
story
where the graphs make an appearance, but where
there can be
story that brings them together and makes the
numbers and the graphs relevant and then a
little bit of learning along the way. And
then the book's formatted such that, you know,
especially with younger readers, you know, you can
just appreciate the bright illustrations and the fun
characters and the story.
But then there's also a graph glossary at
the end that goes into each of the
4 main types of graphs used,
breaks them down for young learners, gives some
more examples.
And then we are adding additional,
resources and learning on the accompanying website for
that as well. So the idea is engage
through the story, teach along the way, and
then hopefully by the end of that, you've
created some potential data detectives who are inquisitive
enough to wanna learn more and try drawing
data themselves.
Because I think if, if a dragon can
draw data,
you know, anyone can. That's right.
So one one problem that I'll that I'll
have you sort of, you know, kind of
outline in this is the banana peel problem.
So so as an example of,
how Daphne is
is using
her her drawing skills to solve a problem
with data,
what was the banana peel problem that faced
the people of the jungle or the I'm
sorry, the creatures of the jungle? Yes. Daphne
goes to the jungle in her first adventure,
and she encounters a group of monkeys.
And they they're mad because someone has been
stealing their bananas.
And so she she helps them collect the
data. They go to each tree. They count
the number of banana peels under each tree.
They realize there are a lot of banana
peels. So she starts drawing the data, but
instead of drawing every single one, she makes
a key that says one banana peel drawing
is going to be 5 banana peels. So,
you know, under tree 1 So you don't
have to draw every single
one. Peel. Exactly.
To count for 10 banana peels.
You know, tree number 2 has 30 banana
peels under it. So that's 6 banana peel
drawings and so forth. Banana peels. That was
a lot of banana peels. And it turned
out the culprit was in tree number 2
there. Oh, so it helps them identify the
banana thief in that vignette.
So simple things. But, you know, and kids
won't even realize that they're looking at a
bar chart when they see this. Yeah. The
thing is phenomenal to me is you can
put these pictures and I have done I
have I have my own kids and
read to their classrooms, my test subjects. Right.
And
you put these in front. It's like any
child can tell you which stack of banana
peels is the biggest.
And, you know, while this may not be
the problem that they're encountering,
we can give them then practical ways that
they could do this same exercise with things
that might be interesting to them. Yeah. Right?
You get I think of, like, my boys
when they were little and they loved Hot
Wheels. I was like, well, you know, what
if you organize those by color and actually
stack them up? Like, you could make a
bar chart on the floor out of Hot
Wheels and then decide that you don't need
any more red Hot Wheels because you already
have a lot of those or, you know,
whatever the case may be. Yeah. Or you
learn something about your own preferences, like, maybe
arrange them by style or, like, make and
model. Yeah. No. What you're what you're talking
about connects to something that
I learned years years ago in,
my master's program. I learned a lot about,
the so there's a book that that we
read in class called The Having Wonderful Ideas
by Eleanor Duckworth. So Eleanor Duckworth, phenomenal,
like, educational theorist who really believed in this
kind of curiosity based education. And there's a
great
video, folks. You should check it out online,
especially if you're a teacher of young kids.
There's a great video online of she gave
a bunch of kids, I
think they were 5 or 6,
just a bunch of buttons,
and just like buttons from clothing and that
kind of thing. And she told them to
arrange them. Just organize them in whatever way
you want to. And and she said, there's
no wrong way to do this. Just arrange
them. And then the ways that kids developed
their understanding,
and not not only the the way they
understood buttons,
but how they
wanted to organize those buttons was so powerful.
Like, there there was one kid that was
like, I did them by colors because I
like how they look in colors and that
kind of thing. There's another kid that was
like, well, I arranged them
based on buttons
that would be on my school clothes versus
buttons that would be on my play clothes
versus buttons that would be on my church
clothes. And so just, like, the possibilities
when you give young people, children, the ability
to
work things out and arrange and organize and
draw meaning, I mean, that's so powerful, which
kinda gets sweet to answer in that way.
Right? And that's one of the really cool
things that actually a lot of adults grapple
with when it comes to visualize dating data
is
any data can be visualized a lot of
different ways. Right? So the banana peels, like,
I put them in a bar chart, but
that wasn't wasn't the right answer. That wasn't
the only way to do that. Right. And
so we have we have a number of
activities that help prompt kids Yeah. Through this.
As well, I'll just share actually the bar
chart activity that's in the glossary since we're
talking about one of the bar chart examples
is
take everything you eat for a day or
in a meal and note the color. Right?
So first you're making a list of red,
orange, yellow, green, blue, and so forth. And
just tally
what you eat in a day and what
color it is. And then at the end
of the day, you can add those up
and now you can make your colorful bar
chart of what you ate in a day.
And with the idea being, is it colorful?
Did you eat a lot of different fruits
and vegetables and those sorts of things? And
or, you know, is everything brown?
Yeah. Right. Need
a few more vegetables in your life.
Right. Definitely. Is it all the color of
airheads or takis and that kind of thing?
But yeah. And I and I think then
taking it, like, here's the constructivist in me.
Right? And then taking it, but, like, what
do you think this means? Yes. What do
you think this means? And and you could
see I can already see this playing out
in classrooms where kids are like, oh,
I think it means that these are the
snacks that are available, or I think it
means that, you know, like, you just can't
predict what they're gonna kinda come up with.
This kind of gets me to,
you know, obviously,
as as an author, you know why you
put work out there, and I think you've
articulated
that. People are people
will receive the work in in ways
that are particular to them. So the question
I have for you
is
how what are you hoping will be kind
of the result
of work like Daphne Draws
Data and and other work that may follow-up.
What are you hoping to see happen as
a result of this book?
I think I would love to see it
help empower kids and help them understand
how how their brains
work in this really amazing fashion of structuring
questions.
And if we can just help them with
that next bit of, you know, they've got
the questions. That's naturally there. Yeah. So now
if we can help them understand, well, now
that you have
the question, what data would you where would
you look to find data that would help
you answer that? Yeah. And then draw it.
Because I think, you know, we talked about
earlier, that that asking questions goes away. Another
thing that a lot of people stop doing
is drawing. You think about us kids, we
all
we all had crayons and markers and we
were all drawing.
And then over time, some people decide they're
going to be an artist and other people
decide, oh, I'm no good at drawing. I'm
not going to do do that anymore. Right.
If we could keep asking questions or keep
some sense of that and keep drawing, those
things go together in really neat ways. And
it doesn't have to be, you know, some
fancy application on your computer. Like, pen and
paper are completely adequate materials for a lot
of this. And that's really, I think, what
Daphne is trying to bring to kids is
just
the the magic and the power of numbers
when you can harness it and use it
in a way that's going to help you
and maybe help you help others understand things
and make better decisions about yourself, about the
world around you.
Yeah. And and this is a piece that
you alluded to a couple of times, and
I don't know if this was kind of
I don't know that this is something that
you were attempting to center,
in the book. But the thing I was
thinking about, like, so when you when you
said kids can, you know,
take down data of what what it was
that you ate every day, like, over the
course of the day and then organize it,
that also is speaking to me
about
I've got this fixation on the slow work
right now. Right? Like, so much of what
we're trying to so much of what we're
asked to do
and what we're encouraging kids to do, I
think, in a lot of schools is, like,
quick, quick, quick. You gotta be able to
do this stuff fast, and you gotta be
able to move to the next thing. Let's
get you to these kinds of things. Because
I was thinking about,
like,
kids walking around with their little notebook
and just jotting things down. And I mean,
that data collection piece Yes. Maybe that's my
dissertation brain working. But that data collection piece
can be so powerful,
and it can also
create a sense that true learning and insight
actually takes time.
It takes time. You have to be intentional
and gradual about it. There I mean, this
we teach with adults that, you know, the
the importance of slowing down and, you know,
you're if you're gonna make a presentation, the
first step is not go to your tool
and start building slides. The first step is
thinking about what are you going to say?
Who is your audience? How do we plan
in low tech ways? So it is absolutely
by design that Daphne is walking around with
a box of crayons and a notebook, not
a computer or calculator
because there is a different level of thought
that goes into committing,
you know, crayon to paper or pen paper
than pushing buttons on I like crayon to
paper. Yeah. Crayon to paper that it's thought
and you're you can iterate as you go,
and it can be I think I like
crayons from the standpoint of sort of it
can be sloppy. It's not gonna be in
the lines because they're not perfectly sharp. And
especially the more you use them, the less
sharp they're going to be. And and that's
okay.
And and it's playful and it's fun and
it's exciting because I think that is another
thing. And I think particularly
in math, but I you know, and I
will say this as a person who was
an educator in our public school system for
over 20 years.
It's it's not a matter matter of if
kids lose interest in subjects, it's when.
And I feel like the one of the
first ones to go where it becomes unengaging
and less fun,
is really around mathematics. And then you also
see
kids, and often broken down along race and
gender lines,
also lose,
lose interest in the sciences next and and
those kinds of things. And so I think
really instilling a sense of joy in that,
I think is really powerful.
A a connection to,
the interview we did with Annie Feder.
And I don't know if you're familiar with
Annie's work,
but Annie has used,
the what do you notice, what do you
wonder approach to teaching math. I like that.
And,
yeah. And I can send you that episode,
but just such a fascinating
kind of approach to it,
this kind of humanizing
and culturally responsive
approach to mathematics, which I think is just
a really cool thing.
That's
amazing. And so,
folks, when this episode is posted, which is
if you're hearing it, it's posted. Spoiler.
We will also provide links on how you
can learn more about the book, where you
can get the book. And, we also,
if you're in the Denver area, we can
make some recommendations of where you should go
and get that book and have it ordered.
So we're we always finish with the top
5.
This is a way to, have a little
bit of fun and just kind of get
some more insight on the story that you're
telling and that you hope to tell.
So we talked a little bit off mic.
So what you're gonna give us is,
5 ways to instill confidence
in girls about math.
So I'll reframe it a little bit because
I don't think it's just good. Please reframe
it. Yeah. Confidence in math. I know. I
don't care if you are. Said it. So
you know what? We're gonna we're gonna reframe
that.
5 top five ways to instill
confidence for kids regarding math.
I think participate
is probably my number one.
And as your participant and I don't know
if there'll be 5. I'm not gonna count
them off. As you're participating,
don't worry about getting it wrong
because you learn
more from the mistakes
than you do from the right answers.
So
participate,
use mistakes as opportunities
to learn,
buddy up. Right. If you are feeling less
confident in something, find somebody who feels more
confident in that. And maybe you can, you
know, vice versa and you can
partner and share approaches,
because there's never one right way to do
things no matter how many people tell you
there is.
So just understanding how somebody else got to
a solution can open up new channels in
your own brain as well. Yeah. I'm gonna
say one thing that I mean, it maybe
goes along with the raising a hand and
participating
a little bit, but not directly with math.
I think this is just a confidence skill
in general
is to
try to have posture and speak
confidently.
So when you're talking with somebody,
look them in the eye. Use your big
loud voice so that everybody in earshot who
needs to hear, if it's a classroom,
can hear you. These are things that seem
little posture now. And can I know? Right?
We gotta put our shoulders back.
That seem little at the time and can
even seem sort of funny if you're
posturing like you're confident when you don't feel
it. But the more you do that, actually,
you start to feel what you've embodied.
And so project the confidence, I think, until
you feel it. And Yeah. Don't stop asking
questions and don't stop drawing.
Let this creativity
and this curiosity
come into math. Let it come into
everything because it's Yeah. Only gonna make things
better.
Yeah.
These are great.
I think it's 6, but that's okay. We
we also decompose. We also de combine a
couple. Well, I think I think I think
you spoke of posture and speaking confidently as,
like, projecting confidence, which I think is one
I got Yeah. There we go. 2. No.
It's just So, like, so it's so funny.
Yeah. It's it's interesting. So, again, like, the
connections I make, maybe not always,
totally useful. But when you talked about the
posture and speaking confidently, that was one thing
that really,
touched me. So
I was,
there's there's this great superintendent in in Southern
California,
who came as an immigrant child from Mexico
way back in, I think well, he wouldn't
appreciate me saying way back, but back in,
like, the late fifties or so or early
sixties. I can't remember what it was.
And so the first time he went to
school, you know, he put on his little
jacket and tie, and, like, he had a
briefcase, and he's going to school in Southern
California. And,
and when he,
when he was called upon to say an
answer or give a guess, he stood up
Put up. Next to his chair and put
his finger up and said the thing. And
that's what I kinda think of, and I
and I see this man as somebody who
he just didn't have any way of understanding,
but he was exuding that kind of,
confidence. I wanna,
I actually wanna link
some of what you said
to
a lot of just great equity practices and
some great culturally responsive practices that I've had
a chat chance to learn. So we know
that
making mistakes and again, I look at Gen
z, and they're amazing in so many ways.
But because their lives have been so under
the microscope scope with social media, they've they
they get very sensitive about making mistakes and
not doing something perfect the first time. And
so I think
making that the norm that that your mistakes
are things that are that not only are
going to happen, but are necessary,
in order to grow your Especially in math.
There Especially in math. A lot of wrong
answers over time. Yeah. Absolutely.
And so, like, really embracing that. I think
working in a community is so important. I
mean, I think we have we have a
society that tends
to overly privilege independence
to the point where we aren't actually learning
from each other.
Asking questions, I mean, this is what's really
interesting because we're talking about the amazing
low tech opportunities
of, you know, asking questions. What we're also
finding, and I've done 2 separate episodes on
generative AI,
with experts in how to do this, and
they're both telling me the same thing. Really
important.
Exactly. They're saying it like,
you you have to be able to know
what you are asking in order to get
what you need, and that's something that's both
high-tech. Even our technology
can't respond to things if we're not clear
about what it is that we need. And
I love this notion of representing things visually
and and not to stop drawing. I recently
started doing art myself after
decades of saying I'm not an artist. I'm
not creative. I can't draw. And then I
story you told yourself. That's the, like Yeah.
Math doesn't work with girls. And I'm a
really good storyteller, and so that's why I
was that's why I believed for so long.
These are great practices, and I think and
I think the other thing so I'm I'm,
like, nerding out into an education space, and
so may maybe this is useful to you.
Maybe it's not. But, you know, Lisa Delpit
in her book, Other People's Children,
talks about how there is a culture of
power around so many educational spaces. There's a
culture of power around traditional math, which tends
to be very much what we visualize when
we visualize math people,
and the prevalence
of of men working in these spaces and
fewer, like, women or even fewer people who
are gender fluid or or gender non binary
in these spaces.
And so what you are doing here is
also saying, no. There is a language
of power. There is a way that you
can learn to build your own power
and and use it to become really successful.
So so so you have my mind going
in a lot of really great directions.
So,
Paul Nussbaum or Naflik, thank you so much
for joining the 2 Dope Teachers in a
Mike podcast.
Just really amazing to have this perspective, especially
as we start the school year.
What are the the ways that people can
connect with your work,
learn about the book, order the book, follow
what you're doing. How do people find you?
Yeah. So first off, thank you. This has
been a a super fun conversation.
I I learned a lot as well.
So anyone wanting to learn more can go
to daphne draws data dot com.
There you'll find
all the ways to get to the book.
You will find activities for kids, support for
parents. So, whether as a parent you find
yourself loving or loathing data, we have things
for you,
as well as resources for educators,
tied at Daphne to all the common core
language and and all of that.
You if anyone listening is interested in the
storytelling with data side of things, there's a
lot of information there at storytelling with data.com.
Yeah. Love that.
And the other thing that came to mind
too is that a lot a lot of
times, I think, as parents, we get really
insecure when it comes to math with our
kids. So this sounds like it's actually a
great,
a great
way of thinking for parents who want their
kids to
enjoy
their learning and to thrive.
So this is amazing.
So, folks, if you are new to the
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We are everywhere you can get podcasts.
Find us on Instagram at 2 dopeteachers as
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you can help us bring this content to
you. Alright. So Cole, we have a way,
that we take out the show. I'll ramble
a little bit, like more than usual. And
then I will,
give a sign, and then we will say
STAY DOPE together.
So
for Paul Nussbaum, Naflick, author or
who stays drawing data,
for the problem solvers, for the creative people,
which is all of us. For those of
us who want to have joy and disruption
and engagement in our learning and in our
life,
I am Gerard Munoz,
and I we are here inviting you to
stay involved, stay focused, stay excited,
and
more than anything,
stay Stay dope. Dope.
Thank you.