- What's up, two Dope Nation.
A I don't know about you,
but I really enjoy going to conferences.
In fact, I think, um, a lot of you, um, may have met me
and Kevin at a conference somewhere, um,
in this nation here in the United States of America.
Um, there's some really great conferences happening this
wintertime, including a dope, uh,
DEIB forum in Philadelphia, uh, DEIB.
For those of you who, um, have your heads down
and are unable to keep up with the latest lingo stands
for Diversity, equity, and Inclusion and Belonging.
Really like that. Next level there,
Carney Sandon Associates helps educators find job
experiences that support their goals as teachers and
or school administrators
and education recruiting firm working with K
through 12 independent, private
and charter schools across the globe, Kearney,
Sandon Associates provides a free
personalized job search service.
Right now, Carney Sando is inviting educators
to their annual DEIB conference in Philadelphia at the end
of January to take part in a two day hiring
and professional development symposium
to support schools equity and inclusion work.
Please visit carney sando.com/two dope.
That's C-A-R-N-E-Y-S-A-N-D-O
e.com/t O-O-D-O-P-E
to schedule a time to speak with a member of their team
and to learn more about this event.
aos good, everybody? Hey,
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I mean, are we all ?
Well, I want you to meet my friend Alex Ciara,
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to schedule an initial virtual consultation with Alex.
Mention the code to dope on your meeting
and receive 25% off their subscription based
financial planning packages.
You can get more info
and a link to their website in the podcast description.
SATERA Investors is the marketing name
of Satera Investment Services.
Securities and insurance products are offered
through Satera Investment Services, LLC,
doing insurance business in California
as C-F-G-S-T-C Insurance Agency, LLC.
Member F slash SIC.
Advisory services are offered
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Extension 3 0 6.
Hey, what is good? Two Dope Nation. How y'all doing?
It's, uh, Sunday afternoon Here in the Mile High City,
but of course, you know, two Tudo teachers
and a mic is global.
We are worldwide. Uh, my name is Al Munoz.
I'm the producer of Tudo Productions
and co-host of this amazing Tudo teachers
and white podcast where we look
to remix the conversation on race, power and education.
Um, I'm here. Kevin is not here.
Kevin doesn't work on Sundays.
Um, and so Kevin is just ke Kevin's just doing Kevin things.
He's Kevin, everything he gets to do, everything he wants
to do, uh, no, but, uh, real talk
before y'all come for Kevin.
Uh, Kevin is an assistant principal in his first year
as an assistant principal,
and he's going through it in January
out in these education streets.
But, uh, we have an amazing conversation, um, that, uh,
I think you're really gonna enjoy with an opportunity to
engage with some dope folks, some dope members
of the two Dope Nation out here, um, who are gonna kind
of talk to you about the work that they do, the people
that they are, and this event that you definitely don't want
to miss, you want to be a proud of.
If you are a new listener, if you are coming
to the two Dope Teachers
and Mike podcast for the first time, where you been at,
we've been here eight years,
like is eight years we've been here, um, you know,
from, from the Salad days.
But we welcome you one way or the other.
Um, you are welcome to become a citizen of Two Dope Nation.
We do have open borders, we do have, um,
very lax citizenship requirements.
You just got state open with us.
And, um, and that's the only requirement.
But you can follow us on social media,
on all platforms at two Dope Teachers.
We're on X, we're on TikTok, we're on t.
We're, I was gonna say we're on X and Twitter.
That's not, that's not a thing.
Uh, you can find us on Facebook,
you can find us on Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn.
Um, just look for two dope teachers and you will find us.
If you would like to find old episodes, go
to two dope teachers.com where you can, uh,
you can check out all 350 episodes
that we've done in these eight years.
Um, and so we are here. So, uh, check us out.
If you're really passionate about supporting, uh, people
of color produced digital media that is independent,
you can do what our partners at both Carney Sando
and at, um, at Satara Investors LLC have done, which is
to invest a little bit in the work that we are doing.
Um, and if you wanna chip in a few dollars a month,
head over to patreon.com/two dope teachers
and a mic where at the $15 a month level, you get a sticker.
And if you're seeing the video, this is the sticker
that you get designed by our guy Sham, uh,
street artist here in the Mile High City.
Um, so super excited about this conversation.
I wanna go ahead and just give a, um,
just give a full disclosure.
Um, we have partnered here and there with Carney Sando
and Associates, and amazing organization
that supports our work
and is doing important work in spaces
that maybe you may not think of as being hotbeds
for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging work.
So, uh, wanna go ahead and welcome my guests.
Um, Kim Garner is the Chief Operating Officer of Place,
placement Group and Director of conferences.
And then we've got Brandon Jacobs, which I realize
that you are not the former New York Giants running back,
uh, the Practice Leader, diversity, equity,
inclusion and Belonging Consulting practice, search
and Consulting services.
Welcome to the show, my friends.
- Hello. Thank you so much for having us.
- Yeah, thanks for having us, and sorry to disappoint you.
I'm a little smaller than him, but, uh,
- He was a big dude. He was really
- Big.
Dude was big guy. He was a big guy.
Still is a big guy, I think, too. Yeah.
- Yeah. I feel like most of us are smaller than that.
Brandon Jacobs , um, . So he's a big dude.
Um, well, listen, uh,
let's hear a little bit about you all first.
Um, you both are, uh, with Carney Sando, um,
and doing this really important consulting service.
Um, but tell me a little bit about yourselves.
Just, um, the thing that I get really interested in, um,
when it comes to doing conversations about education, I love
to hear what kind of students, the people
who come on the show or,
so you can pick any moment in your life.
Um, so it could be, uh, it could be like, you know,
little Brandon back in first grade,
or it can be college student, grad student,
Brandon, like, whatever it is.
Um, I like to talk about middle school for me.
Um, seventh grade is, I think, well, first of all,
I think seventh grade is my inner child.
I think my, my inner child is a 12-year-old, uh,
who wants lots of attention, who is really tiny.
Um, I was really annoying in middle school,
so annoying in middle school.
If there was a bad idea,
I was gonna do it not to hurt people.
I never was hurtful to people.
I was just obnoxious and you could dare me
to do almost anything.
And I would almost always do it.
And so when I think of my 23 years in the classroom,
I always think about before I come down super hard on kids,
I'm like, okay, remember yourself.
Remember the patients that you needed .
So, um, if y'all would like to introduce yourselves
and, you know, sort of share a little something about, um,
about a student version of yourselves.
Let, should think about that a little bit.
- Sounds good. Tim, you wanna go first?
- Sure. Um, so thank you so much for
that introduction, Kim Garner.
Uh, my pronouns are the sheer,
and as a student, I guess I would say
all throughout my educational career, I was a shy student.
I was quiet. And what really, um, kind
of made me come out of my shell
or be able to express myself more was writing.
So English became my favorite subject in school just
because I enjoyed reading,
but I also really enjoyed the different writing assignments,
and that's just how things came to life.
And it was easier for me to express myself
as being a shyer person.
Um, so that really started
to come out in middle school and high school.
Um, my love for writing to really, um,
express my emotions.
- I love that. And, and I can even tell just the, you know,
how intentional you are with the words that you choose, like
that I'm like, this is a writer
that's like sitting across me.
That that's amazing. Thank you for sharing
that. What about you, Brandon?
- Yeah. So, uh, yeah, again, thanks for having us.
Really appreciate it being here.
Um, I would actually give you maybe two versions
of the student, I guess is myself.
And one of them I think interesting is kinda why I am,
I think both actually why I am where I'm today.
So I would say to me that the story about me
as a student is I was the only, uh, I'd say even in,
even in growing up, I went to private high school.
I was lucky enough to go through an access program
that changed my life forever, right?
That allowed me to go from inner, uh, somewhat inner city,
uh, kind of areas in New Jersey to go to one
of the top private boarding schools in the country, right?
Um, but I would say even in that case,
when I was in public side, I grew up in
a pretty, uh, diverse city.
I was in honors classes and tracked
and all those things in middle school,
and I was most times the only black male in a lot
of my classes growing up as well too,
because of the fact I was in honors tracks.
Uh, that got exponentially more different when I got to,
they were similar, I guess when I got to high school,
when I was in the only, I was one of the only males in my,
my independent high school as well too,
in my class and grade.
Um, got to college and the same thing.
So I think the student I would give you actually is the one
that I'll never forget my junior year in high in college
when I had my first black male teacher, okay.
When I was like, this is what, this is like ,
I remember that student being the first time being free from
that for, for like in my, in my lifetime, right?
So for me, that was something that, um,
I don't think I realized a student I didn't have growing up
is because I didn't really know what I missed
until I got ultimately that teacher
and I are still close, um, still on my phone
and to this day, 15, 20 years later, right?
So that impact, I think is kind of where I am today.
And I think the other part I would give you
as student is I'm actually older now,
is grad school student Brandon.
Mm-Hmm. Working on my dissertation now is
that I was diagnosed with a DHD
later in life than most folks.
Um, it wasn't until I was,
I think 32, 33, something like that.
Oh, wow. That I was like, hold on a second, this makes a lot
of sense now even I'm dealing
with students and, and understanding that.
But really to personally deal with that,
and then went back in my head in time
and realized how different my experience would've been if I
had that earlier diagnoses probably.
Um, but, and that a lot of that came down to my parents,
I think rightfully so, not wanting their,
their black male student, young boy to be kind of, yeah.
Um, in their opinion, kind of typecasted or whatever it is.
And I don't blame them for it back then,
but I still think about what
my world would've been like differently.
So, um, I think about both of those students, kind of the,
the before one and the now one a little bit,
and how different that could have been,
but wouldn't change over the world, obviously.
But, um, definitely I think I struggled through education
through the most part until I kind of got
to the point in which I got to college.
But, um, again, it, it,
it all adds up to the same thing in the end. So, no, that's
- Amazing.
Thank you for sharing that. It, it's funny
because I'm seeing, I'm seeing a lot of parallels, um,
you know, between the three of us,
but also with Kevin, who I wish was here to be a part
of this conversation, maybe at another point down the line
because Kevin, um, attended, uh,
Highlands Ranch High School here in Denver, Colorado, which
it's become more diverse
as living in Denver has become
less and less affordable.
So, um, you know, uh, communities
of color are finding themselves displaced
and in other areas,
but at the time, it was an overwhelmingly, um,
white population at the school.
Um, and Kevin was one of,
I think six black students in a school of 3000, I think.
And, um, they used to call themselves a black falcons
and all this kind of thing,
but sort of that kind of, that feeling of kind
of being the only one.
And then the other thing, Brandon, that, that you said
that really, so just this week I was having a conversation,
um, in one of my PhD classes, so dissertation gang,
I'm not quite there yet, .
Um, but, um, one thing that, that we were discussing was
that fine line between providing access
to neurodivergent students of color
and over diagnosing particularly boys of color
with having these things.
So when you talk about A DHD, it's like, we want folks
to receive the services and supports,
but we also know that historically there's an over-diagnosis
and over di over sort of, um, assignment to, uh,
to special education for, uh, boys of color.
And, um, this is great stuff.
I, I wanna kind of follow up on something really quickly,
and I think we'll touch on this a little bit
as we continue the conversation.
Um, so a couple of terms that I've become really aware
of since learning about your organization, um, have to do
with private school versus independent school.
Um, so maybe Kim
and then Brandon, if, if you could speak a little to
what the, if any, if there's a distinction
or if those terms are used interchangeably.
- Sure. Um, so we work primarily with pre-K through 12
secondary schools.
Um, and so for us, so we work with private, independent
as well as charter schools.
And basically they're schools that are not run
by the government, um, your city or town.
And they can be religious affiliated,
they can be single sex education.
Um, there's just a variety of different, um, terms or,
or a variety of different topics, or, sorry, not topics.
There's a variety of different, um,
definitions of what it could be.
And some are got it, some are much larger,
some are much smaller, some are more niche, um, in terms of,
um, what they offer to their students.
Um, but they are governed by their own board of advisors.
Yeah. Brandon, I'll kick it to you.
- Yeah, I would agree. Same way.
I think the, the word independent,
and this has been thrown around the last couple years,
we're really, and we're a big proponent
and a big sponsor, infra fan of, uh,
the National Association of Independent Schools,
or NIS as people might call it.
Um, and so for us that distinction
between truly being independent of, again, jurisdiction
around that situation, I think it's huge.
Um, and I think for a lot of folks, my wife's an educator
as well too, any independent school world not being kind
of tethered to, I think some of the traditional more sense
of, of the public kind of sense of it.
Again, they're all great places.
They all do great things, but the independent nature of
that allows for more that choice, that selection, what comes
with that, that I think is a higher price tag,
obviously sometimes, or whatever it may be.
But I think that the recent change within the American
system, thinking about like school choice
and programming, all these things come
into this conversation now.
Like, what's best for your kid, ultimately.
And I think independent schools function a little
differently in that sense that they can meet some
of those needs and some of those situations when you throw
in, um, extracurriculars and college programming
and all those things that you can do, there are benefits
and, and, um, and different advantages to it.
But we work a lot of with schools that have that,
that freedom or flexibility,
I would say, to work outside of that.
Um, and it's, uh, it's, it's great.
It's got a lot of positives to it as well too. Yeah.
- I love that. Thank you so much. Like, I think that I,
I probably don't have to tell you all,
but in the various, uh, debate debates that happen
around education Mm-Hmm.
, I think we very rarely go on fact finding
missions, um, in a lot of like areas.
And, and honestly, that, that's one
of the reasons I love doing this podcast is
that I have the opportunity to say, so what is that
like, tell me in your words kind of what,
what the lived experience
that you have in these professional spaces is.
So thank you for that. And I guess I have one more kind
of follow up question before we kind
of get into some conversation around DEIB
and what Carney Sando does to, um, to do authentic
and meaningful DEIB work.
Um, how did y'all find your way into education?
- ? Uh, for me, it just fell into my lap.
I've worked at Carney Sando for over 20 years. Okay.
Um, so I randomly s started out working
part-time for the firm, um,
because a friend told me about a job opening
and I worked my way up to where I am today.
'cause I just fell in love with the company, the mission,
what we do, the people.
Um, and yeah, it's been over 20 years.
It seems like it was just yesterday, .
- Wow. That's cool. We don't, we don't see that a lot.
Like, you know, I am the longest tenured, um,
manager in Denver Public Schools in my, in my particular,
in, in my particular internal pathways
and development department.
I've been in that position for 18 months. Right.
I've been in Denver Public Schools for 25 years,
but most of it was as a teacher.
Uh, how about you, Brandon? What's your, uh, sort
of connection into education?
Yeah, I sounds like there's a lot there. Yeah, there's
- A lot to that story.
Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it revolves around to the point
of kind of the private school world as well too.
Again, if you would've told me, uh,
what is it, 15 years ago?
So when I graduated high school 20 years ago,
whatever it is, um, that I'd be working education,
I probably would've punched you in the
face, right? , because
- I'm like, same, same. I would've done the
- Same.
Because I think for, I think in particular, for me, again,
not having a lot of black role models, honestly,
there wasn't like, why would I wanna do that?
Right. I don't, I don't know. I see that connection.
So it, it wasn't for me until I got to college.
Honestly, when I, when I was a pre-law major,
I made it about 35 seconds in my first law class.
And I was like, this is not gonna work. .
Um, the, uh, the professor, professional professor said
to me, uh, if you think this is like
law and order, you're in the wrong class.
And I was like, well, I'm in the wrong class.
And I just got up and left, like right
after the first like, interation, whatever it was.
So, uh, so I stumbled through.
- Oh, wow. That's amazing. You decided
right there in that moment, right
- There, this working.
Yeah. I'm not wasting anybody's time. I love it.
Time, my time. This is what I thought
it was gonna be, whatever it is.
And so, um, I ended up falling in, in,
ironically, in love with sociology.
I took a class randomly, kind of, I had to go
to another class after I left this pre-law class
and ended up taking a class in anthropology.
Um, fell in love with that idea.
And it wasn't until college when I was sitting in a kind
of college classroom, taking an education class, uh,
that I thought I wasn't gonna love or whatever,
and kind of fell again, fell in love
with this idea of being in education.
Um, but I started on the interesting
and the wild only laugh as I started on the college, um,
placement or college admissions track.
I was a college admissions intern.
I did all those things after undergrad,
I went into the college admissions world.
And in that experience, I think I realized, um, a lot
of things about how much I wanted to help
and really wanted to give back to what was going on.
But I, but interestingly enough,
I think quickly turned in why I do what I do now.
I was like, I realize I couldn't save everybody. Right.
I felt like I was actually failing
folks by doing that more and more.
Yeah. I spent so much time buting my head
trying to fix this and fix that.
And I was like, look, I gotta, I gotta
control what I can control.
And that was actually probably within the classroom,
within a school setting and on and on.
And then, ironically now, five years ago or so,
or a little less than that, um, carne sando came kind
of knocking it gave me the chance to go back
and do this for more folks, not just at one school.
Um, and it's a blessing. I, I count on every day, right.
So it's been kind of a full circle
for me to think about that.
Um, but for if, again, just to go back to your question,
you never thought I'd be an education.
And now I, I laugh to think of
what else would I've ever done.
Right? There was not like, just kind
of fall into that mode or whatever it is.
I married an educator. I'm
surrounded by educators every day, right?
Like I, we see the path now.
But it wasn't until that, I guess triggering of kind
of doing what I was designed to do.
Um, and even more so when I worked
with kids in college counseling,
I'm like, oh, whatcha gonna major in?
I'm like, major in your passion. Right.
Do what you gotta do. That's right. Because
the rest of it figure it out.
That's right. Yeah. I was a communication
and a sociology major, and I work as an educator, right?
Like there's no pathway to find success or happiness.
But I think as an educator now, um,
I couldn't see myself doing anything else. Right,
- .
Yeah. No, I love that. I love hearing these stories.
'cause I think that one thing I've learned just in my role
now, I spent 23 years as a classroom teacher.
I came in through an alternative licensure program.
I had graduated with degrees in history,
Latin American studies and ethnic studies,
and had really been thinking about going to graduate school,
but then I thought more about making an income .
Um, so, um, so I took a long-term sub position,
and it's just really interesting
because I'm like, you, I'm like,
what else would I have done?
And I've done a lot of like thinking about, uh, you know,
just kind looking back as I kind of come towards the end
of my, um, my career in public education
about how just wild this entire ride has been
to go from a long-term sub to 2021 Colorado Teacher
of the Year, and just getting into these bigger spaces,
which has just been incredible.
Um, I think, um, I'm, I'm really interested.
So full transparency, um, I'm going to expose myself as a,
uh, PhD student
who is in my third year almost done with coursework.
And I had never heard the term DEIB until
maybe a few months ago.
Right. And it, it was through lane at your, um,
at your firm that I, that I learned that.
And so rather than asking, what is that?
Anyway, I just looked it up and I was like,
oh, that makes sense.
Um, I want to talk a little bit about DEIB, um, term
that has the, and I don't know if it's just
because I just noticed it
and now I'm starting to see it in other areas
and other sort of discourses around
what we had previously simply called DEI.
Um, and, um,
and I also saw that, um, apparently at Tesla, like 67%
of the employees wanna have DEI training,
which is amazing to me.
Mm-Hmm. , I just can't, I can't speak to
how much I love that irony, right?
, . And, um, it's like, this is great.
So, um, so talk about this emphasis
on Be for Belonging.
Why is that an essential part of the acronym that
that you all at Carney Sando have really, um,
have really taken, um,
and implemented into so many of your practices?
- Yeah. Well, belonging's the outcome, you know,
if you have it, if you have the D plus the E plus the I,
it equals B.
So for us, our ultimate goal is for folks to
belong where they are belong in the cla,
feel like they belong in the classroom, at their workplace,
in their home when they're grocery shopping.
Like having the, adding the B is the,
is the ultimate outcome for, for us is
what our thought process is.
But Brandon, you probably have more eloquent words.
- , I think those are good words.
Yeah, those good words. There's few things in the world.
I know it's very rarely am I having ?
Um, but yeah, no, uh, it's a no.
And I think that, so it's a great question
because I think for a lot of folks they misunderstand this,
and I think there's actually a little bit of onus on people
who, who do this work to under to, to really reestablish
with this for some folks.
Um, I think in the current today's world, we hear about d
and i, we hear about culture, um, the culture
where we hear about all that critical race theory.
And, and what I think folks miss about this is
that when you boil all this down to exactly what Kim said,
we want people to be their best selves
and live their best life, right?
Yeah. And if we can't acknowledge the fact that
that's not currently possible for some folks
because of other things, right?
Then I think we missed the boat to start off with anyway.
Right? So if you get down to this equation of D
and I, again, we call it the d and i equals the B
and kinda the outcome part of it, what the analogy
that's been used a lot of times over,
over history has been like,
diversity is being asked for the dance right?
Type of idea, um, inclusion.
And that idea is being asked to dance kind
of once you're there, right?
Can you, um, can you participate?
Are you participate with other people?
Um, the equity part of it, um, being kind of, um, is,
or can you change the playlist, right?
Is, is the music and the culture part of what
that represents who you are as a person.
Um, we get asked the question all the time,
why is it not DIE and DE and I, right?
And it's 'cause DIE spells die, right?
So we try, we try to switch things around a little.
There's a reason why. Yes.
So, um, absolutely , but, but it,
but it all, honestly, there is a
reason why you add the equation.
'cause once you have a diverse group
and you have a background representing what's going on,
which we show and research will show increases both success
and connection
and relationships, both in the business world,
the educational world, whatever world we're gonna look at,
the diversity part kind of has to be there
for success to work out in the end.
Um, the inclusion part, again, people to feel like they're,
they feel represented, they feel like they're part
of what's going on, and the equitable part,
can they change the power of dynamic?
What's going on? Mm-Hmm.
All of that sounds great and fine,
but what's the outcome of that?
Right? So when you do all of that,
what does it look like in the end?
And if you go back to that dance analogy for a second,
again, Ken, are you invited to the dance?
Yep. Are you able to change the playlist?
And then are, do you feel like
you're in dancing once you're there?
Our question with the B part is why is it a dance
to start off with, right?
Like, why do I feel as if I have
to give up an admissions ticket to get into a place
that is my school, my, my grocery store, my home, right?
Whatever it is to feel like I can just belong.
Um, and I think that is the piece where when we talk
to parents or, or families
or schools who misunderstand this, the attack on this is,
oh, well, you're differentiating something,
or you're making something feel separated
or isolated with, ironically,
it's the complete opposite of that, right?
We want every person, regardless of their skin color,
regardless of their experience, regardless
of their background ever, is to feel
as if when they walk on whatever community they're in,
whatever space they're in, to just be themselves.
Right? That's all we can ask for.
And the fact that that doesn't happen
because of those other things is why
we come back and do it again tomorrow.
Right? So for me, the B is more than just, um, a word.
It's more than just a, a happenstance.
It is an intentional, focused, longitudinal,
whatever way you wanna look at it, outcome of something
that takes time and energy
and effort to create so that every person, um, can feel
as if they're becoming their best self, that they can be,
that they can be their best selves,
and ultimately that they can live their best life.
That is, and it's, and,
and some people say it's an unattainable, uh, uh, journey.
I couldn't disagree more, right?
Like there are situations when you walk into
and you go, huh, like, this is what it means
to just be who I am.
That's what we hope schools
and organizations can create by intentionally focusing on
what that outcome is,
not just sometimes the input of what that might happen.
- So it does, it does feel, um,
a little bit like a tall order.
And I, I think that, um, there's a couple of pieces
that are kind of lingering for me, um,
as you both share the, the belonging part.
Uh, first is that we are in pretty different spaces, right?
And so my experience as, as a, as a Chicano teacher
for 23 years in Denver public schools with, you know,
very rarely did I feel a sense of belonging, like
with my students, definitely.
Because I think that, I think
that we just understood each other on,
on a pretty deep level.
Um, also, I, I was born and raised in this city as well,
and so I attended the schools that I now support.
Um, and again, as a student, not really feeling that,
that sense of belonging, I look at the two
of you having been in this work for a good amount of time.
And it sounds like there's a sense
of belonging, um, where you're at.
But belonging feels like a really, uh, tall order for some
of these systems, which have frankly, um, committed a lot
of harm against marginalized and minoritized communities.
How do you sort of, you, Brandon used the word longitudinal,
but Kim, I'd like to hear how you sort of contend
with the fact that it is kind of ideal state, right?
The outcome is like, we do all this stuff
and this is where we wanna go.
And it may be difficult to get there in a lot of places.
How do you sort of balance that?
- Well, I think, you know, you have to start somewhere
and you might not get it right.
Yeah, that's right the first time or the fourth time.
But it is about putting in that effort
and I think collaborating, seeking advice, being willing
to, um, to grow, to change, to,
to apologize when you need to.
I do think that it, it is just about taking that step
and seeing what happens, um, from there.
- Yeah. I love the idea of, of this, of belonging
as kind of like a north star.
It guides you. You're always headed in that direction.
And I, you know, I also think about just in the work
that I'm doing, 'cause managing, um,
adults very different from managing, uh,
middle schoolers in some ways.
In some ways it's actually very similar .
Um, but I think that, um, I think that there are moments
where it's like we just had a moment of belonging.
Like, like, I don't know how long it's gonna last.
I don't know what other things may come up,
but we just kind of had that moment.
And if we can string together enough of those moments,
you know, where it becomes kind of the culture, um, of
where we're at, I think that can be really profound.
Thank you for answering that question.
Like when I, when I hear some of this terminology, I'm kind
of like, man, I
- , are you sure?
Well, Well, I also think, you know, um, the,
the humans have a desire to belong, you know?
Absolutely. To belong in their community,
to belong at school, to, like,
from a very young age, you know?
And just because you are from,
from an underrepresented group, you shouldn't have the,
you should be able to have the same opportunities.
You should feel comfortable. Yeah, for sure. You know?
And I think that it's just, it's, it's a human need
to belong to feel like you belong.
- Yeah. Well, and I'll just add, I think that the part
that even break the words down too,
and we don't have to do all the
semantics here in this meeting. Oh,
- I love semantics. I love it. Yeah. If
- You break, if you break it down, right?
So to be and long, right?
You've split up those two things, right?
And what's going on? Words like belief and,
and under, like, if you go down to the core value,
what's going on, all it basically says,
I'm gonna show up here and know that I'm here.
Right? That is the end all, be all of this conversation.
We can go through this. We get asked all the time,
especially our work, well, how, how early is too early?
Talk about kids. Um, they, they're talking already.
Uh, the minute they're, the world is starting to be shaped,
I think it's responsibly responsible, I think for schools
to ask the question, what is our job here, right?
As an institution is to educate kids
and the thing and what's going on.
Ultimately, when you boil that down, the first thing
that we have to do is protect kids.
We ha we have to be able to understand.
We can protect their innocence.
We can say, or we can protect their future. Yeah.
And I think those two sometimes get misaligned.
Understand that, um, this belonging piece can be
as simplistic or understood as very much of,
we just wanna make sure that you're just being the
best version of yourself, right?
And, and whatever that is today doesn't necessarily
even be the same thing tomorrow.
And that journey, to your point
that Kim mentioned is exactly where we're at,
that it's not actually ironic.
I think it'd be, it'd be a mistake if you're,
if your destination's the
same thing today as it was tomorrow.
So we don't see belonging as, again, as a destination.
Just like we don't see success and, and what's going on.
I think for some folks who get locked into the numbers
and the data and all that stuff,
and I hear that part of it, right?
Especially in today's world, uh, with some of the way our,
our, our finances function on like, oh, we can test for, uh,
aptitude, we can test for success.
Really, you're not, you're not actually what you're testing
for in that moment, right?
Is where we are in that moment.
And no different belonging that, again,
a kid may feel like they belong today
and then tomorrow they don't.
And that's okay as well too.
What we wanna move toward though is the fact of, you know,
that we care about you
and here's how and why we're doing that.
Um, and the last, I mean, I I,
the perfect analogy I think I can
give to this in so many ways.
I, growing up as a kid, uh, I mentioned
before being in a, in a somewhat kind of 50 50, uh,
inner city kind area of, of, of white and,
and black members in my community, um, never forget.
And I'm wearing Wakanda on purpose
because I'm wear dead. But anyway, I
- See it, I see it - .
You can't see my blurred back of my Wakanda while over here.
But like, remember as a kid growing up, uh,
never forgetting one of my best friend Sean, who I still,
it's what I still keep in touch with today.
We're five or six years old, whatever it is,
having this conversation about Halloween,
what we're gonna be for Halloween
and all these things, I remember saying to him, I wanted
to be Spider-Man.
Right? That's what I wanted to do. And all these things.
And he looked at me dead in the eye at six years old
and told me I couldn't be Spider-Man.
'cause I was black. Right? Now that's innocent.
He's six years old, right? There's
nothing Attached to him, right?
Yep. But my world was rocked to be able to understand
that I couldn't be something or be with somebody
or be this thing
because of something I had no control over, right?
Right. But belonging says the opposite is be here, be
who you want to be and be here now.
Right? Because we don't care.
Not that we don't care about those things,
actually quite the opposite.
We care so much about those things
that I'm gonna let those things become
who you are as a person, right?
You are a black male, I am a Christian, I am these things.
It's not gonna change that part.
I don't wanna eradicate or erase those parts.
I want you to bring all of those things.
And when you sit here in front of me, person to person
or whatever it may be, we're gonna let that just ride.
We're just gonna be who we are.
Um, I think the misconception around that, around
that is going on is what makes it difficult.
Oh, I wanna make you better.
I don't wanna make you better at all.
Make you be the best person you want to be. Yeah.
Whatever that is. And I think that's the part long people
see as this long-term destination.
We're never gonna get there, ever. No, that's right.
And I, and I'm okay with that
because if we do, that means we're in a cult, honestly.
Yeah. , I mean, I mean, that's just what it is.
It just calls space, space. We're all looking around
and be like, oh, come kumbaya, we're great.
That's a problem. That's gonna be an issue somehow some way.
I want you to bring all those issues,
bring all those differences on.
We're gonna sit here and
there's love on each other either way.
Right. That's belonging. Yeah.
- I love it. And I lo I noted the Wakanda forever. Yeah,
- , - It's a beautiful thing.
Um, it's interesting
because as you speak,
my mind's like running in a thousand different directions.
But as, as you both speak about this idea of, um,
of what it means to belong, um, I'm thinking about
where I grew up.
So I'm half Mexican, half white. I identify as Chicano.
I grew up in, Denver is historically one
of the most segregated cities in the country.
Um, and it has been for a really long time.
And so the neighborhood I grew up in, I,
there weren't other white kids
and there weren't other, uh, Mexican American Latina kids.
I grew up in a historically black neighborhood, which I,
I learned as I grew up, was actually one
of the most storied, uh, black communities
between the Mississippi and like la right?
So a lot of our history was defined by folks moving west,
um, migrating west
and making stopovers in, in Denver, in the Denver area,
and then saying, this is kind of a cool place.
I'm gonna put down Roos, James Beckworth, uh,
one of the great explorers.
There's a wild, the, you know, bill Pickett,
the Bill Pickett Rodeo started here.
And I think about the community that I grew up in
and how, to your point, Brandon, my identity never
cost me an, an ability
to belong like the kids on my, on my block.
Like we played every day. We had a great time.
And I think that what gave me a way to
understand culture
and history is something to be celebrated,
was growing up in a community where their legacies
of excellence were celebrated.
Whether it was in the barbershops, in the grocery stores,
in the restaurants, just the murals, that kind of thing.
And so now I rock my culture
because I had, I, I had such a great template for
how one can love their own culture.
And, and it makes me realize that like, listen,
the neighborhood I grew up in was super violent.
There's a lot of things that I needed to get away from.
That was also the last time I really felt like I
belonged in a space.
And so I'm having a moment right now, y'all.
Um, and that's beautiful.
So thank you for, for just taking me in that direction.
So, um, so there's, you've both sort of hinted at sort
of the overall climate that we're dealing with right now.
And so, uh, there are folks out there
who are propagating a message
that DEI is the big bad wolf, right?
That we have to stop. DEI It's even gone so far as to lead
to policy that is banning the use
of DEI in institutions of higher education
and that kind of thing.
Um, so what I would love to,
I am always really inspired by people
and organizations that are leaning into the thing
that's being demonized and that's being attacked.
Um, so I'm just really curious as to how you all
are sort of experiencing this current backlash and, and,
and just, you know, what that has looked like from the work
that you're, that you're both doing in this
really important space.
- Brandon, do you wanna go first?
Yeah, I was gonna say it's the,
it's the fun part of our jobs, right?
- It's so much fun. - It's so much fun.
Um, I tell people all the time if I, uh,
if I was doing something that didn't piss somebody
off, am I doing something right?
Right. Like, I, I don't know if you can, if, if, again,
a couple years ago or whatever it was
before this really took a, a bigger push, it's
where we are now, that I would feel the same way about this
next thing I'll say, but bring it on, right?
I'll be the big bad wolf.
If the big bad wolf is, is in this case, blowing down
and knocking down houses to make kids feel like they're
who they're supposed to be, then, then,
then color me, color me wolf, right?
Like, it is what it is. , I don't know.
I, I don't know if we, um, yes, I love it.
Sometimes I think, uh, we, we get very afraid of
and operationalize some of this issue around the, around
what, what difference is.
And on I, I think there's an opportunity as a country for us
to realize well too, um, that we're here
and we're gonna be here for a long time.
This isn't going backwards.
We're not changing what's going on.
Um, we don't have enough time
to talk about it in this podcast.
How much from a, from a public standpoint, from a,
from a company standpoint, to your point, again,
you have places that are doubling down all these efforts
and we're doing all the right thing, right?
It's gonna, it's gonna start against what's going on.
A lot of these institutions,
I'll speak from the school standpoint, right?
Um, when I, the private school I went to was founded,
ironically, to not let black
and brown students into the school.
It's why it was created. So that didn't happen.
Ah, interesting. Okay. So, so when you, when you talk about
that, that institutional difference there, right?
Um, the changes are gonna happen overnight, right?
It's not, it didn't take, it didn't start overnight.
It's not gonna happen overnight. Yeah.
So I think to answer your question, it, it's, um,
it's about, it's about chipping away at
things for the right reasons, right?
I think being able to wake up every morning
and say, I'm doing the right thing, knowing that's the case.
Uh, and I don't mean to, this is a bad analogy.
I don't mean to, to compare it all to, um,
the civil rights movement on, on,
because I think that there are people moving their lives on
the line very differently, even
that we're putting our
reputations on the line, what's going on?
Um, we were talking about people losing their li lives
literally over what was doing what's right.
What's different today, right? There's no difference. Now.
Um, you can cancel culture,
you can do whatever you want to do, right?
It doesn't change the outcome
of we're doing what we think makes sense.
Um, I think that the trick,
however, the last thing I'll say is that the way to fight
through some of that is with the truth, right?
What is this really about? To really arm people around?
What is the goal behind it?
I still haven't met a parent that I've dealt
with in the schools that I've been in
for over 10, 15 years now.
Um, that disagrees with what I say about that part.
Now, we may disagree on the how right?
Might disagree on the when and what we're talking about,
but the ultimate, what itself is not arguable
in so many ways, right?
And when you get people talking around
what the true definition, what the true understanding
that is, um, nobody leaves again, in my understanding,
is gonna disagree with that part of it.
The, the issue of getting to that point
and getting through that conversation,
I think is the biggest issue we run into,
is we don't take the time and energy
to understand why this is so important, why this matters
so much, and why this is different
for me than it is anybody else, right.
For what's going on. Um,
and I think that the ultimate problem is that de i de and I,
or de and I be a lot of ways too, um, is difficult
for people because it's different for every person, right?
There's not a true,
even though we just defined it a second ago,
the way we feel it, the way we see it,
the way we understand it and even define
it, can be different for other people.
And that's okay. It doesn't have
to be the same for every person.
And that's what scares some folks is that,
well, it's not the same for me.
That, that that is totally your, your whatever is your vibe.
Is your vibe. Yeah. Right? I just want
you to live your best life.
I don't need to impose upon that.
Um, that I think is not, I'll put it that out there,
it's not the American way, right?
We're very much telling people how,
what the success will look like.
Fight from your bootstraps
and just do what, what, and it's gonna work for you.
That's never been right.
Just like me telling you how
to live, your life's gonna be right, right?
Mm-Hmm. So that's not an institutional thing.
We, we do well as a culture, so we fight that,
and I think that's the part
that people get really upset about.
- Mm-Hmm. I love that. Thank you. So, yeah,
- And I would say, you know, we, we at Kearney,
sando are cognizant of our reach,
and we feel as though we have a responsibility, uh, to,
to do this work internally with ourselves, um,
but also be able to continue to, to share this work
that we're doing with our clients, with the educators.
Um, so for us, it's, it's not just an outside thing,
it's, it's internal as well.
And de and I-D-E-I-B has become part
of our fabric as a company.
So it's not something that is, um, it's not something
that people are surprised
by when they join our firm.
Yeah. Um, because it is a part of our DNA,
and it started many years ago, as someone who's been here
for over 20 years, you know, we definitely, we have evolved,
but, you know, uh, the president of our company,
he is on board with it.
So it starts from the top down, you know? Yeah.
The leadership down. So, and it just,
and it, it's infectious in a good way, if you will.
So if you didn't have the top people,
and myself, I'm a, I'm one of the managers of the firm,
if you didn't have us, um, fighting
for this work,
but also making it accessible to folks internally Yeah.
Um, and continuing to do so externally, um,
it would be a very different story
if we didn't have that support.
- Totally. And Kim, Kim, I really, I love
what you just said, and I don't want people
to miss this point
because I think that most, most of our listeners are coming
to us from public education settings
and public policy settings and that kind of thing.
And what I, what I've heard over
and over again when,
whether it was when I was a classroom teacher, um,
as an active member of my professional association
and now working in a managerial role in central office,
what I keep hearing from all these quarters
and witnessing is that we have these pronouncements, right?
We have these, these mission statements.
We have an equity statement, we have all these things,
but we always treat it as something
that we are doing out there, not in here.
And I think Kim, that point that you made about how
critical it is that in our communities,
particularly those communities that have a commitment
to DEIB, that we actually are doing the work on
ourselves and with each other.
I think that's a really beautiful thing.
Um, you mentioned, Kim,
that the work has evolved in the 20 plus
years that you've kind of been there.
I wanna ask you a little bit about, I'm always a little bit
hesitant to ask about the, the current situation, you know,
the current attacks on DEI, because what I always expect is,
and what I've heard from a lot of people is, well, yeah,
I mean, attacks are happening,
but they've always been coming from somewhere like,
this isn't necessarily a brand new development.
It's playing out differently.
It looks different, it's got different implications,
but, you know, we've never been in a place
where we could do this work in peace .
Um, I, I'm curious, Kim,
what you've witnessed in the 20 years just in your role.
Like where, like has this always been something
where there was a little bit of resistance
that you kind of had to push?
Or is this moment unique?
- I think, you know, there have been times, years
and years ago where there was some resistance,
but I think it was about educating folks.
You know, it's people, you, you, you know what, you know,
and it can be scary when you don't know.
And these terms come about and whatnot.
And, um, it just, it, it, it took time.
But anything worthwhile, any change
that's worthwhile is going to take time, and that's okay.
And so it took a lot of persistence and patience
and, you know, individual growth was, as we talk,
as we talked about a few moments ago Yeah.
Was hugely important because you needed it.
It couldn't just be a mandate from management because Right.
You're still an individual person. That's right.
And so there are things that folks had to do on their own,
um, on their own journey.
But also we had to do certain things together,
and we had to have these conversations.
And it just became, I think, you know,
people became more vocal about it.
You know, you would talk to different school contacts
or job seekers,
and they would talk about things that they were struggling
with on their campuses or why they wanted to leave
or why this position is open.
And so that type of dialogue was not always as open,
um, you know, 20 plus years ago as it is now. So yeah,
- I appreciate that a lot.
And, um, I think that, um, I think it's just, it's so, like,
it seems so elementary,
but it's just so interesting to me how in a lot
of these spaces that internal work isn't prioritized.
Um, and then, uh, Brandon,
I wanna circle back to something you said.
Mm-Hmm. , um, talking about sort of continuing
to chip away using the truth.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, and the truth is,
and I, I had the opportunity to do, um, some,
to do some fellowship work, um, from August, 2022
to August, 2023 called Voices for Honest Education,
which was sort of countering a lot of these harmless things.
And some of the, some of the polling data that we've seen
very much is in stark contrast to
who the loudest voices are against DEI and DIB
and the other, whatever other sort of, you know,
big bad wolves they've identified.
We know that over 80% of American parents want their kids
to have some sort of understanding
of the racial history of the United States.
Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , we know that
around the same percentage of parents agnostic
of party understand the value of having their students be
around folks who are different from them, learn to work
with folks who are different with them, learn to learn
to be in diverse communities.
So we know that the truth is out there,
and we know that this is something that is desired by,
uh, by our community.
Mm-Hmm. . So, um,
did you wanna comment on that, Brad?
I see. Yeah. See, I see the gears turning. Yeah. ,
- Yeah.
Your wheels are spinning. Minor but's fact, I think,
I think the question really becomes sometimes,
and this is this person who, um, lives in the suburbs,
spends so many someone, I spend too much time at Lowe's,
obviously, but like it, um,
the question becomes like, are you, are you looking
for a hammer or a nail or screwdriver, right?
Like, I think sometimes we come at this work, whether it's,
uh, d and i, it's, it's wellbeing,
it's social justice, it's a lot of different terms.
Right? And to Kim's point, I think a lot
of people are afraid, or they're,
what they're saying is they're afraid of change, right?
Yeah. Because they, because it's a shift in a, in a dynamic,
uh, imbalance for them or what the world used to be like.
And I can understand that.
I can totally get my head around the fact of,
if I'm walking down the street one day,
and all sudden the world shifts upside down, which is
what happened in 2020, right?
Yeah. Where people saw
for the first time something through a different lens.
We go, oh, that's how that could have been. Right?
And sometimes you need the hammer.
Sometimes you need to come at there
and say, look, this is what we're gonna do.
This is what it is. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, say,
we're gonna move and shift and do those things.
Um, and sometimes you need to nail to say, we're gonna,
we're gonna peck cat this thing here,
or smaller, what's going on.
I just think having the right tools sometimes around this,
I think is, is interesting.
And unfortunately, as a culture
and as a country, we got caught up in this last couple
years, is that the loudest voice sometimes wins out when the
quiet one is the one saying,
Hey, I'm come back and do it again tomorrow.
Right? Yeah. That, that the ability to say, we're gonna,
we're gonna pick our battles,
we're gonna keep doing this and keep working.
Award it all knowing that in the end, um, that
what would would, I think the other piece I'd add really
quick too, about de and i de and I work
and why it's so important internally,
but also externally as well too, is
that it is an ever-changing world, right?
Right. The fact that we're talking about different pronoun
usage and, and it's not just black
or white literally or figuratively anymore, right?
There are so many complexities around this.
It's, it's scarce folks,
but really what it does is it puts people on notice to say,
Hey, I'm making you re responsible for knowing these things.
Right? And I don't that, that is
what is hard is that people don't wanna do that.
They don't wanna do that. They don't wanna spend the time
and effort to know that a person
who uses the word asexual right, is something
that's different than it was in the
past and what's going on.
Um, they're welcome to it, right?
Welcome to the, welcome to 2024,
and welcome to the world that is today.
And if you don't like that, then you need to catch up,
because again, companies, organizations, college,
universities, they're there, right?
That they're there. So, I, I would just say that to me, to,
to, to push on that point is I think that for me, the,
the ability for today's world
and the complexities we deal with is
because we lack the ability sometimes to have conversations.
Because once we do
what we saw in 2020 when we were stuck in our houses
and we were having conversation on six inch screens all day,
is that we were like, oh, you can do this.
This is fine. Right?
Because we had the ability to take the time to do so.
And now that we're back out of that, um,
and we're running around doing all these quick things, um,
right, we lose the ability to say,
Hey, just let's have a conversation.
Let's talk about what, what
matters to you, what matters to me?
Um, and let's come to an agreement around that.
So yeah, it is, uh, it's challenging. So,
- Absolutely.
No, I really appreciate that.
And I think, um, I, I really echo this, the,
the fact that dialogue is becoming more
and more difficult across difference in,
at least in social media spheres.
And I always try to remind myself
that social media world is impactful, it's consequential.
Lots of really harmful policies have been passed
because of social media discourse.
But also understanding that dialogue is something
that's really important to try to recover.
I I just read the four Pivots, um, at work,
and it was just one of those books that kind of, you know,
in really excited me about what I think both
of you were talking about, which is existing in the liminal
and existing in, in, in some ambiguity,
because that's actually where dialogue can be had.
Um, so I'm gonna take a quick break.
Uh, we're gonna shout out, uh, some folks
who are making the two dope teachers in a MIC podcast
and two dope productions at large possible.
So we talk about belonging.
Uh, there's an organization
that has been supporting the podcast for the last, um,
almost for a year at this point, um,
that is really looking at practicing belonging in terms
of building generational wealth.
Um, my friends Alex
and Tori at Satera Investors have become very,
very committed at, um, in, in terms of ensuring
that all people, particularly educators, particularly
educators of color, have the opportunity
to build generational wealth,
even if teacher compensation doesn't catch up, um,
anytime soon to the work that a lot of teachers do.
So, uh, Alex
and Torres do some really great subscription based work.
Um, also, as an aside, Kim, I would love to connect you
with Tori because she's got this amazing podcast about, um,
inspiring, um, women of color who are,
who wanna be entrepreneurs.
And so I just, I was looking
at some of the work that you've done.
I'm like, oh my gosh, Kim and Tori need to know each other.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, so they're really amazing folks.
Uh, those of you who think that you, um,
just don't make enough money to start planning
for the future, um, I really encourage you to hit up, uh,
Tori and Alex at Satter Investors.
So that's Tori and Alex dot satter investors
llc.com/two dope.
And you'll get 25% off of their services.
So hit them up.
And actually, we're gonna have to
wear on the podcast pretty soon.
So keep, keep your ears open Back
with you here for a final segment of, uh, two dope teachers
and, uh, Mike.
Um, so, uh, a couple of questions
and then, you know, um, Brandon, you were mentioning the,
just this, that we are in the wake of quarantines.
We are still kinda lacking the ability to have a discussion,
a conversation around these really important issues.
And, and y'all are gonna share with us a place
where such discourse and dialogue is possible.
Y'all gotta get in it.
But I wanna, I wanna share a little bit about Carney Sando
because I'm sure there's some of my folks who listen
to my show saying, man, you're like,
you got private school people on what's going on.
Why are, what, what are we doing?
So, um, Carney Sandoz is active and independent
and private schools and many of us who did not have private
or independent school as part of our growing up,
let's just say we don't tend to associate DEI work
with private or independent schools.
And I wish y'all could see Kim smile right now.
'cause like, that's . It's like, man, yep. .
I know, that's what people say.
So I, I wanna, um, I wanna know just sort of
what is the work for you all in those spaces
and why does it matter for, for you all in your skin
as the people that you are to do the work in that space?
I wanna start with Kim on that one.
'cause you look like you, again, I have this like,
superpower for seeing gears
turning in people's minds. ,
- I'm thinking, I'm, I'm thinking, um, about it,
uh, about your question.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, so what does it mean to us,
you're saying in the, in these spaces?
- Yeah. Kind of what does it mean?
Why is it important for this DEIB work to be anchored, um,
as you support private and independent school spaces?
- Because it's similar to what Brandon said,
um, a few moments ago.
It's about the kids, you know, and,
and yes, private schools are,
have not historically been the most diverse,
but the world is changing.
Um, and it's about the families and the children.
And I think that we would be remiss if we didn't, um,
do what we're doing within this space
because of
how things have changed considerably in the world.
Yeah.
- Just like that, right? It's like, well, ,
the work needs to be done in these spaces.
And I'm sure, uh, Brandon, you can probably speak a little
bit to your personal experiences attending these schools
and that kind of thing, but I think
sometimes it is that simple.
Um, my good friend Monica Washington, shout out Monica 2014,
Texas Teacher of the Year, one of my favorite humans, um,
once, uh, said in a group, she said, well,
there's enough work for all of us .
You know, like we, we can't necessarily pick
and choose where we're doing the,
or like choose not to engage this work in any spaces.
It's like, there, there's work everywhere.
We gotta be willing to do it.
So, Brandon, what, what, what's your sort of, uh, you know,
what are your thoughts around
that work in those spaces and why it matters?
- Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I think it's the one on one
place where interesting enough in education,
we realize we're not competitors.
We're collaborators here, right?
Like though I might be a private school educator,
I'm still dealing with, so working
with public school educators every day, right?
'cause they're my neighbors. They're the people i
I live with on on, right?
Um, we, there's no bigger proponent of public education,
ironically than Austin Service private.
Like, we understand that we're in this together.
I think as a whole, if there was one kind of, um,
connection point that we can make that work
because the educators are banded together, right?
We have to be able, this, this field itself
as a whole is being nicked and,
and tattered in what's going on.
And it makes sense. 'cause
teachers aren't paid enough for them.
Mean, we know that to be the
case, obviously, what's going on.
But I think the, um, the part I would add on to that is
that when I was in, when I was coming, coming back
to work in independent schools, I had the choice right?
Between going to public or private and whatnot.
And I made a pretty hard decision.
I say, because I felt like my heart of hearts.
I was, I was really destined to really work
with public school kids and do all those things.
Um, and got wrapped back in my alma
mater, come back and work at that school.
And my head of school at that point, the, the president
of the school basically said, I need you to be
what you needed as a student, right?
And like, how was I supposed to say no to that? Right?
And so there's a, there's not a day that's gone by since
that moment in 26 to 2012 or 2011
whenever it was, where I don't think about that moment
to think about what, again,
you asked a question about like young student, Brandon.
Like, I envision myself thinking
about whatever that kid may be.
Now, the difference being is that, um,
to Kim's point, we are more diverse.
I mean, I was the only black male in my entire class of,
for four years in high school.
I had 140 kids.
Uh, my brothers graduated from the same school 20 year, uh,
about, uh, seven, eight years later.
They were 45 of them.
And all, like, there, there's just a lot different change.
What hasn't changed, I think,
however, is the fact of every kid still gets
cared about that way, right?
Yeah. The fact that every kid, no matter who you are, um,
so I think, unfortunately, I think d
and I gets wrapped as well too, as being this like, oh,
it's just for the black or brown kid.
Mm. It's like, you don't, it's like it's for every kid.
It's for every single kid that walks through this door.
Yeah, that's right. That's right. To know
that they can belong.
I don't care if you're blonde, blue, iron,
cisgendered Christian kid, you too, right?
You were all part of this larger equation.
So I think to the education world, whether we're public,
we're private, we're independent, we're parochial,
we're Catholic, whatever, it's,
we're still about what's making sure
that tomorrow's kids are better than they were yesterday.
End story period. There. That's all this is about.
Um, anybody else who tells you anything differently
doesn't understand this part.
And I think that's where the fight goes and what's going on.
So yeah, I, I, I wake up every morning, think about
what would've been if I had people like Kim Gardner in my
corner as a kid growing up, right?
What I would've become, right? Yeah.
And I think that as, that's
what drives me to go back and do it again.
'cause I wanna be that person for that kid, um,
that can make sure the world's better
than it was better tomorrow
- For sure.
Uh, I just, I just love that so much.
And I think that when I think about your, like, I think
for me, going into education, I, I've always sort of
communicated to people it's like I, I,
I can't see myself working in another school district.
This is the district that raised me imperfectly,
for better or for worse.
There's something that I can give as a graduate
of Denver Public Schools
who grew up in Denver Public schools,
I've been a DPS student, teacher, parent and spouse, right?
Um, at one point, all three
of us in my family were in DPS in some way, shape or form.
And so I can work in a space that I understand where
voices like mine haven't always been a part of the,
the decision making process.
And Brandon, I kind of see you in the same way
where it's like public education, you would've been great in
that space, but this independent school situation is
something you get that you understand
and that you know how to kind of engage those spaces.
So I, I think that's really, um, fantastic.
So I think, and we're running a little long,
so I wanna just make sure that I'm respectful of your time,
but, um, so I'm sure that all of y'all listening are like,
man, these, these two people are cool.
Like, how do I talk to more people like them
and get connected to some of this?
Like, do stuff that's kind of happening.
Um, you've got this big DEIB gathering
that's happening in a few days.
Um, what, so, uh, just let, tell us about it.
How can folks, um, get connected,
but what can they expect if they attend the summit that, um,
that you all are planning?
- Uh, great question. So we are hosting our 10th annual, um,
D-D-E-I-B hiring forum.
So, um, there will be interviewing, uh,
from our client schools with job seekers, uh, for positions.
And then also there will be professional development, um,
happening simultaneously.
So it's a really great time for
educators from all over the country to come together
to network, to learn, um, as well as to interview
for positions.
Yeah. Brandon, what else do you have to add to that ?
- Yeah, so it is, uh, yeah, so it's the kickoff
and a lot of folks ask this question,
is it done on purpose yet is right.
So we start every year we do about Kim , six
or seven of these per year across the country in terms
of hiring firms, but if hiring fairs,
but this one in particular is our beginning one.
We start off the year with this, with, with the focus
around diversity, conclusion, belonging.
And so this is the 10th year of of of, of being part of it.
I was part of it for the first seven on the other side
of the desk, working at a school, being the being
and the recipient of great people and great experiences.
So now that I'm on the other side, get
to see really the powerful piece of like, connecting folks.
So again, if you're in the Philly area
and you're interested in connecting, always happy to do so.
And if you're not in the Philly area though,
happy to connect with us too.
'cause we do other hiring fairs across the country.
Like we mentioned, this one just happens
to have A-D-N-I-B professional development component to it.
But there are other ones that we also level the same things
in all across the country, west coast, east coast,
down south, up north, wherever it may be.
So if you're interested, we'd love to talk more about,
it'd love to talk about how we're connecting people across
the way, um, and really working for folks to do this job.
Why Kim and I got into this job with years and years ago was
because we knew that the impact we could have on kids across
way, actually through the adults that we get
to work with that are dope like you guys.
So if we can connect more folks and do this
and what's going on, impact just ends up
being in kids' laps every day.
So if we can connect, we're excited about the event.
Um, Howard Stevenson, uh, who a lot
of folks know maybe in terms of his amazing work,
he'll be our main keynote speaker on Friday this coming up,
and we could not be more excited about him
and hear about his perspective
on what's going on across the world.
Um, and then just last thing,
say the focus of this year's event.
Um, it's about navigating discourse.
It's really about what we've been taught the entire time,
is really giving people, hopefully the capacity
and the toolkits to be able to do this.
Knowing that October
and November of this year is not gonna be super,
super fun for some folks.
So really gearing up and really getting ready for
that I think is really important.
And we're really focusing on the future of the next 10 years
of this work, not necessarily the past.
Uh, because the future is where we we're gonna be at.
So we'll talk ways in which this is gonna change
what ways in which educators continue to really can,
can gear up for this and really be successful.
So, like I said, we'd love to have you if you're in the area
or just love to hear more about
it, feel free to let us know. We're, we're always happy.
- Yeah. Y'all gotta come through.
What are some of the sessions that people can,
I love the idea of, of of combining a hiring forum
with professional development that,
that does address some of these things.
And folks like Howard Stevenson is the real deal.
Like, um, this is an individual who's been promoting this
idea of racial literacy
that's really gained traction over the last few years.
Um, long time listeners will remember when we had authors,
uh, Priya vci and Winona go, authors of, tell me
who you are coming on here.
Um, not even old enough to drink at that point.
I think , um,
talking about this powerful racial literacy
that work that they did.
Um, and so, and so, uh, Dr. Stevenson is, is an amazing,
like, I would just go to, you know, if, if
for no other reason, if I only had a couple hours in the
day, like go down there.
Um, but what are some of the other sort of
learning opportunities that people may have?
Like, like, don't give all of it.
Like give it a teaser so that people will be like,
I heard just enough that I'm gonna get on the turnpike
and go, uh,
but not so much that I don't have to go now.
- .
Um, well, we'll have sessions on strategy strategies for
hiring, uh, candidates from, um,
underrepresented backgrounds.
Uh, there'll be sessions on, um,
on what else?
I'm trying to think. Um, there's a really cool one
that's the gamification
of black women in independent schools, which I think
- Will be Oh wow, that's - Neat.
Um, really intriguing.
Uh, Brandon is moderating a session. Do you wanna talk about that one?
- Yeah. So we're getting together some of the top,
I would consider DNIB directors across the country at
different independent schools for a panel
to hear kind of what's going on in their schools.
Like what's, what, what they're dealing with.
Um, and we did a similar thing a couple weeks ago.
It's really powerful to hear from them.
Like, here's the, the unvarnished behind the veil.
Here's what we go through every day, right. Type situation.
People understand that. So that'll be really cool.
Um, there's also a couple other sessions about like, um,
thinking about how do you, um, how do you think about being,
living in and understanding in a pwi I, right?
How do you understand that part
and what does that mean as well too as a person of color?
Um, how do you navigate spaces in which that you're,
you don't look like everybody else.
Everybody like you as a professional, right?
In particular, not just as, as that case.
Um, and thinking about as well too, ways that affirm, um,
really the, just all kind of ways in which that,
from a professional standpoint, to your point earlier, we,
we don't talk a lot about this sometimes.
We just kind of happen in these areas. That's right.
Um, so really the focus of the conference,
and we hope we'll get excited for folks
to really walk outta here on, if you, if you're able
to make it into the course of the day, walk out
with not just the toolkit and not just the confidence,
but with a network to be able to do it more as well too.
'cause that's the biggest part of this conference,
is connecting with folks and really doing that.
Um, again, both this conference with all of our conferences
as well too, connecting with people,
having more people in your corner, in your Rolodex
to be able to call when you need to.
Um, that's the the beauty of,
of this work that we're doing this weekend. That's
- Dope.
That's dope. I love that.
And I think, um, so it even sounds like, um, there's,
there's a space for some criticality, right?
Where to say that we're, we're moving forward,
we're building a future in order to un understand
how we can build a better experience
for kids and professionals.
We, we've gotta be real about what we've experienced
in these systems and what it's like to be who I am.
Um, that's beautiful.
So folks, you've got to go
and check it out if you're in the area.
Um, and if you can't make it this Friday,
it's just starts this Friday, right?
The 26th, correct? Yes.
Um, if, if you can't make it this Friday, um,
just like head over, we'll have some, uh,
links in the show notes.
We'll have Kim and Brandon share a little bit about
where they can find more information about this
and other forums and summits and conferences that they have.
And maybe you can catch another one.
Like, I actually, like, I love conferences.
Um, I love just going and just meeting people.
I think that connecting piece is the most important thing
to me and just seeing where, where these kind
of connections can go
and, uh, what kind of amazing folks you can meet.
So I plan on attending one sometime, um,
in the calendar year.
I would've loved to have gone this week.
Um, but my boss said, no, .
Um, so we, uh, , uh,
so we're gonna move into probably
the most important question that we have.
. Um, it's a pretty big deal.
Um, I don't know if people have had time to prepare.
There's a, um, there's definitely,
this is definitely a thing.
So, uh, we, so first of all, if, if you, we don't like
to assume that every guest
that comes on the two dope teachers in a Mike
podcast is a hip hop head.
Like Kevin and I grew up with hip hop.
I like to say that hip hop is kind of my,
my, my wild little cousin.
Uh, I think I'm a little bit right around the same age
as hiphop, but, um, so we grew up together.
Um, I don't think hiphop is perfect,
but it is, you know, sort of what, what raised me in part.
Um, so, but if people aren't hiphop listeners,
we also encourage them to u
to substitute artists from other genres as well.
Like we know hip hop is not the beyond end all,
so I'm told .
Uh, so couple of guidelines, we're gonna ask, uh, each
of you to share your top five rappers or performing artists.
Uh, there's a couple of rules.
So the first rule is that there are no rules .
So, um, which means any, any
policies we have around top five rappers can be
interrogated, disrupted, modified, all that kind of thing.
So when we say top five, it doesn't have to be five.
Uh, we call this the Eric Hale rule.
Uh, Eric Hale, shout out 2021 Texas Teacher of the Year
who probably found a way in this segment
to shoehorn 25 rappers into a top five .
Um, and he was texting me later saying, oh,
and I forgot this guy and I forgot this dude.
Um, so, uh, so that's rule number one.
The Eric Hale rule is in full effect, if you want to say,
I have a three-way tie for a second
and a four-way tie for fourth whatever, um,
the second rule is, um, it doesn't have
to be set in stone.
So if people come for you
and say, man, I heard you on that podcast
and you said this was your top five
and I disagree with you, um,
your top five is unassailable, right?
Mm-Hmm. because it's just a moment in time.
So it doesn't have to be ever, it can just be right now.
This is how I'm answering this question.
Um, and so it can just be a snapshot top five.
Um, I think I mentioned that it can be, um,
other performing artists, uh, who are outside
of the range of hip hop.
We, um, we even had Taylor Swift make an
appearance on a top five.
Still not totally sure what I think about that,
but I'm okay with it .
Um, it's, it's fine. It's fine.
Uh, midnight's is a good album. I can admit that. .
Um, And so, and then the final rule is individuals.
It, it can be individuals or collectives.
So like, if you're having a hard time choosing from Wu-Tang,
folks, like you can just have Wu-Tang
as like one artist, right?
So you don't have to like, use, you don't have
to like differentiate in that kind of thing.
So it can be groups, um, occupying one space.
I think those are the rules. So
what we'll do is you'll share that a little bit.
We'll make a playlist off of this episode and,
and include it with the episode, uh,
where you give us artists and then I identify songs.
Um, unless you have specific ones.
So who has the fortitude,
the daring, the bravery to go first? Brandon,
- You're the music man.
, I knew she was gonna, I knew she was gonna do it.
So, yeah. So, um, so I don't know if this is fair or not.
'cause again, my, uh, my background was interesting enough,
I was a college not only just dj,
I ran a college radio station
as well too for a couple years.
So my, my background Oh,
- That's absolutely fair.
I was a really bad rapper in seventh grade.
So that, that's where my authority comes
- From.
. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah.
So, uh, so I say it 'cause my, my,
my music choice is eclectic by nature.
Maybe I agree with that,
but I would say it's across the way.
So if I had to go all the time and I'm not,
and I'm gonna go outside of rappers just
'cause I think that I actually, I really try not to,
to label top five rappers.
I, it's always a fight
and I'm not sure I really wanna
fight anybody who's listen Yeah.
- To this podcast. Yeah. We, we talked to Dr.
Lagar King a while back and, uh,
and he was one that said, so I'm gonna give a list that
y'all's listeners can listen to, but yeah, right.
, the real list is, I'm not gonna put that out there.
'cause not gonna, it'll cost, it'll cost controversy.
So I feel that, go ahead, . Yeah. Yeah.
- Alright, so I'll go and I won't even go in order here.
I'll just say top five people.
- Oh, yeah. It's not, it doesn't have to be hierarchical.
Okay. That's the other rule. It
doesn't have to be hierarchical.
- So I'm, I'm gonna stay and I'm not gonna use one of Kim's
because I know, I know Kim's top ones.
I'm not gonna use her in this, in my, But, so I'll, I'll go
with, I'll go with, um, I'll go with Lupe fiasco.
Actually, I think that for me, from a lyricist standpoint,
yeah, there were moments in which I still can't wrap my head
around the words that he said that were so powerful for me
as, as a younger male growing up in the early two Ss, right?
Yeah. So Lupe's gotta be on that list to me.
Um, you guys have credit today?
Um, I'll go with Luther actually.
And I say that because of Luther's ability
to connect generations, my grandmother
and I will still end calls with Luther
and I, nowhere can sing anywhere near what he could
or what she could, but it was that,
that connective between too.
So Luther comes to me as number two, and
- For people who are not in the know, we're referring
to Luther Vandross. Correct.
- I mean, if you call anything out, I mean,
if you call anybody else Luther, I don't know what you
- Yeah.
I don't know. It's a like Lex Luther, like, I don't know.
Like, but yeah, like I know, I know, I know.
And we mostly know.
I just wanna make sure people don't get it
twisted. Okay. Yeah.
- All right. So, uh, so being from the Philly area,
I'm not a Philly, I mean, I'm, I'm, I grew up in Jersey.
I call myself Philly person, whatever, it's Boys to Men has
to show up on my list here. Ooh,
- I like that.
- Uh, because you talk about just a ability, again,
to see young black males who could rap or who chose not to,
but went in a different genre, right?
To be able to make music, um,
and to be in that boy boy world range at that point,
and be all black and be unapologetically black about it.
Yeah. To me was, was was absolutely amazing.
So they're my three. Uh, I would go four.
Um, , uh, this is crazy, I'm gonna say this,
but, uh, I, I think four in so many ways for me too,
when I think about Jay-Z and I say that
because again, as a, not a New Yorker in particular, right?
Who didn't have that same affinity to what he was taught,
really some of the things he said, yeah.
Uh, I didn't grow up again in, in the same kind
of background, but just the ability from an entrepreneurial
standpoint Mm-hmm.
To be who he's today and what he changed.
And not just to say, look, you can be black and be rich.
You can be black and rich and long term make
impact across the way.
Um, yeah, I think is something that will always stand.
Same with me, for sure. Um, and then I'm gonna talk .
I'm gonna do this because I
can, I know you said about genres.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna stretch and people
are gonna lose their mind.
I says, I'm gonna make four, I'm gonna make five,
like five A and five B.
Um, okay. And they're both mid or Midwest southern people.
I'm gonna go John Legend and Darius Rucker combined,
because to me, okay, um, Darius Rucker, uh,
I'm a country music artist fan.
That's why don't I blow anybody's mind.
But like, um, to me, his ability to, um,
to stretch a genre from where he was at originally,
to then turn into who he is now, um, absolutely amazing.
And then John Legend has the greatest voice that's ever,
I think, walked this side of the Western Hemisphere in terms
of range and ability.
- Yeah. You and my spouse are in agreement about
this. , all the
- Concert changed my life forever.
Um, whatever may be.
So, uh, but yeah, so I mean, again, I could name 500 people
and I'm offended that I have choose five,
but I, that one for sure.
And I'll just throw out one really quick,
like newer artists Yes.
About Lathan. Warick is a guy I just able
to meet actually last week in,
in Nashville, speaking of kind of the combo.
He's a rapper, but also does country music.
And so he is done a lot of collabs with Okay.
Freeland and some of the other new black
country music artists.
Though you will hear a lot about
him moving out moving forward.
But, uh, I got a chance
to meet him my personal last week, which
- Oh, that's dope. That's
- Dope thing. So anyway,
- Nice.
I see. That's the other thing I love about this segment is
that I will always learn about an
artist that I had not heard of.
And again, I'm so sad that Kevin's not here
because when you, when you drop Darius Rucker,
Kevin is also has a really eclectic, uh, musical date.
It's really funny. We do top five rappers,
but the only shows he goes to religiously,
and I will say religiously, are Phish shows.
Like he has traveled to see Phish,
he's gone the whole way into it.
We have Phish debates on this whole kind of thing.
So I just think that Eclecticism, um,
would not be lost on him.
I'm gonna comment really quickly, and then I want to hear,
uh, Kim, I know I'm, I'm ready.
Mm-Hmm. . Uh, so Lupe, um,
so Kick Push came out in the early part
of my teaching career.
Mm-Hmm. . And at a time
that I was really struggling with, like,
how do I do this job well?
And just that whole metaphor of Kick Push Coast.
Um, sometimes you're gonna slip
and you're gonna bust your lip.
Um, you know, you're gonna have some trouble,
but you just have to keep on doing that.
Um, boy Men speaks to my eighth grade sensibilities, uh,
Motown, Motown Philly came out when I was in eighth grade.
And, um, and I think there was definitely a moment in the
late eighties, early nineties when I was probably listening
to a lot more r and b than I was rap and hip hop.
And so that really, um, is after my heart.
And so I love this top five.
Um, so Tim, all Eyes on You, .
- Wow. - See, that was a wrap reference.
That was a wrap reference. . Oh, yes.
Listeners, you know, .
- Um, so I was, I too was going
to mention Beyonce's husband, Jay-Z as Brandon,
I guess. I love it. But, um,
- We'll just call him Beyonce's husband in the list,
- But - Beyonce, what's
that guy's name? He's married to Beyonce.
- You know that Beyonce's husband.
Uh, but also Beyonce, you have to mention the Queen. Yes.
Um, I would also say
Mary j Blige, uh, for sure.
- Oh, Mary j. Mary J Blige. Yeah. Yes.
Every time someone says like,
and she showed up on a few of our top fives and,
but every time someone says her name, I like,
I I just feel this wave come over me.
I'm like, Mary J Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
- Um, biggie. - Okay.
- Um, I was not an East Coast, west Coast.
I never picked sides, so I would also name Tupac.
- Yep. - Um, who else would I name?
Um, TLC.
- Oh, yes. That's a, that's a, that's what's
- Up. Yeah.
- All - Right. Um, Whitney Houston. You know Whitney?
- Yep. Gotta have Whitney there.
- And Mariah Carey. Mm-Hmm. . Just
- First compact disc I ever owned
was Mariah Carey's first album.
. Yep. Yeah.
And I know people aren't gonna, people are gonna cancel me
for saying that out loud, but it's true.
- I mean, it's true. What a voice. It's, it's
what you like, I mean, yeah.
Back in the day. That's
- Right.
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
This, this, um, so much of this list did,
were there more than you want to add on your list?
No, no. So, so much of this list speaks to
moments in my life growing up, where the, you know,
it's just like you turned on the radio,
this is what you heard.
And I think when with, with Pac
and Biggie, um, I, I just really enjoyed them.
And I like you, I didn't ever, I always struggled
with the East Coast, west Coast thing, also,
because I'm not from either coast, like , we're here,
we're here in the mountains.
Like, it's equally difficult to get
to either of those .
Yeah. Fair. But Pac, PAC is a storyteller.
Biggie's just technical, like excellence.
Like, I, I like, even to this day when I listen
to like Juicy
or when I listen to, um, to other songs, like More Money,
more Problems, it's like, it's like just listening
to the skill and it's beautiful.
Um, these and,
and TLC, um, rest in Peace, uh, left Eye,
like just such amazing music
and it was so cutting edge for its time.
Mm-Hmm. , um, you know, amazing stuff.
So, man, these, these top these top fives are fire.
I'm not, I'm not even gonna lie. .
Like, I think that this is a great way
to conclude this amazing conversation.
Um, Kim Garner, Brandon Jacobs from, uh, Carney Sando.
Gotta have y'all back on the show at some point.
And we gotta get Kevin in the space
and we gotta get, you know, future things.
And, you know, as you all continue to do the work, um,
just stay in touch with us about how we can just continue
to host conversations like these.
Really appreciate you being here this afternoon, evening.
- Oh, thank you so much for having us. It's been an honor.
- Yeah, this has been a blast. So, um,
what I'll do is I'll ramble for just a couple of seconds
and then, um, to the best of our ability
and to the best that our internet connections will allow it,
um, we will attempt to say, state open together.
Um, so, and I'll give you kind of a signal for that.
So I will say for my absentee co-host everything
for the amazing Brandon Jacobs
and for the amazing Kim Garner, uh,
from the amazing organization, Carney Sando.
My name is Ard Munoz.
I'm wishing all of you to have survived your Sunday scaries.
Uh, I am wishing for all of you to continue
to have conversations and to build dialogue.
I'm wishing all of you to find openness, find the liminal,
find places where you cannot only belong yourself,
but contribute to an environment of belonging.
Find ways to be a part of hard conversations.
Find ways to make every space welcoming space.
Uh, for all but above
and beyond every day, y'all gotta find ways to
stay dope.
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