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- Hey, - What is good? Two donation
- Now.
Need everybody tour out there
- In the land of two - Dity
- To Oh, the land.
Two Dity. That's too delicious, bro.
I love that. two dope militias. Two dope paucity.
Uh, we're out here. Whatever you call us. Welcome back.
The two dope teachers and, uh, Mike. I'm Rao Munoz.
- And I'm Kevin.
- He's Kevin Adams. And I'm Rao Moz.
And we are here remixing the conversation on
race, power and education.
Kev, do you know that we make a a fugitive space for folks?
Do we, do you know that? What?
Where are you talking? I can't,
- I think that we're trying to, there we go. Engage that.
- I heard this. - I don't know. What was that? Alright.
- That's what - We
- Try to do.
We really do. We really do.
These are the conversations that are sometimes like,
this is, bro, I've been thinking about the
origin of our podcast.
And our podcast started as a fugitive space.
It started as us escaping the nonsense
of the general staff meeting
and, um, having our own unofficial, um,
unsanctioned staff meeting, uh, where we had to kind
of like hide for a long time.
So, welcome to this fugitive space.
Uh, two dope teachers and a mike.
Season eight bro. Season eight.
- Ocho - Ocho. Ocho. Ocho.
- Yep. Remember when ES ESP N had the Ocho ?
- Yes. - Ocho. Why? There need to be eight ESPNs.
Explain that. I know
- It is. Man. Man, I,
- I feel we do we even need two ESPNs?
- Do we even You need one. Let's be honest.
'cause like, it's like,
especially like watching our guy Yoic not get the love
repeatedly all the time.
Although people are starting to,
but it's like, what did he had to do?
- Um, certain people won't figure it out.
We're looking at you. Perk. Looking at you. Perk
- You're looking.
We're we're really looking at LeBron James too.
It's like LeBron. You gotta, you know, whatever.
And, uh, van Lathan. I like Van, but damn Van. Like, stop.
Um, yeah.
So we, we are here
and just like Nicole Yoic, uh, we are inevitable.
- That's right. - We're inevitable. We're the Thanos.
So No, we're not that. Uh, I'm so, I'm a little punchy.
It's been a really long day. Uh, yeah.
We were doing a
recruiting fair. No, keep going for wait. Going.
- I think that's what I think. That's what, no, I think
- People want, I think that's what people do want.
. I don't dunno why they want, why y'all want this.
Like, y'all . Y'all decided to be here. Uh, yeah.
Had a had a big recruiting fair today, man.
Uh, real brief before we hit our intro. Uh, full speed.
Um, we still need to do a full episode
where we talk about this, uh, pivot that the two
of us have made in the last year.
Um, but how was work today?
- work today? Work. Work was work, man.
It's every day. It's very exciting. Very fast. Every i
- Every day work - At work.
I, it goes very fast.
There's a lot, there's a lot of exciting stuff that happens.
Today was a lot of catch up
because I had the privilege for the last, for Monday,
Tuesday, and Wednesday of attending the
National Courageous Conversations Summit.
Man, love. I love it. Uh,
courageous conversations about Race Summit in Austin, Texas.
Uh, I was just, you
- Tell people about the podcast,
you better tell people about the
- Podcast.
I told 'em about the podcast. Good.
But I just wanna shout out those five people.
Like it was wonderful.
Uh, three days of, of really rigorous learning, you know,
but, but we partied down.
You're gonna love this g Yes.
That dance party was hosted
by none other than Doug E.
Fresh.
- No, what - I saw a live performance of the show.
Saw him beat, do the beatbox mastery skills at Blinky Fresh.
He was rocking the party. Oh,
- That's, that's, wow.
That's now I'm, now I'm real mad that I left that school.
Um, dang.
- I'm telling you bro. I'm everything.
Hey, everything is back.
- Ah, everything is back. Everything. , everything.
Um, yeah, I, you know, I mean, I still got to go
to Puerto Rico over a year ago,
but, alright, that's gonna, there we go.
That's gonna rust after a while. But Dougie fresh.
That's sick. No, that's cool, man.
Um, well, we'll have to talk a little bit about that
'cause um, 'cause I think, um, , I think
what we're having today is a,
is a courageous conversation. So we'll kind of get
- In there. I think so. I
- Definitely, or maybe for other people,
d doesn't require a ton of courage out of us because, um,
because we rock with the stories
of the marginalized and minoritized.
Like that's what we do. Um, yeah, for me, man, it was,
it was probably a little bit less glamorous, but, um,
but the last couple of nights it's been really dope
to just be recruiting for our peer to teacher program.
Um, we, man, as you know, we got so many folks
who are working as paraprofessionals in our school
who have forgotten more about education
than a lot of teachers know.
That's right. No offense to my teachers,
but these folks are, um, they're just, they're ready
to contribute and, um, our district gives tuition assistance
to parents who wanna become teachers.
So it's kind of dope. But, but I'm exhausted, man.
I put in like 20 hours the last two
days and it's like, okay.
Um, but yeah, it's good. 12 Friday,
- 12 Friday, - It is Friday,
and I get to flex sometime tomorrow, which
- Is flex Flex on - I get to flex. Ugh,
- Flex on you.
- Get to flex with my flex. Um, so we're, we're gonna,
we're gonna cut the nonsense short today in a couple weeks.
We'll, we'll get back together
and talk a little bit about just
where the podcast is at, where we are at.
Like, we're in very different places, but, uh,
but the pod is strong.
The brand is strong. We still are out here for you.
With you by you.
- Yes. - Yeah.
- Most definitely. - Most definitely.
Um, man, what a guest we have on the show today.
- So, oh, this is a good one. This is a good one. Yeah,
- This one's great.
So, um, you're about to hear our conversation with Ab
Ramadan Chini, um,
who is a Palestinian teacher
in the United States of America.
Um, she's from Chicago, south side.
And, um, she wants to talk to us a little bit about how
teaching Palestine, um, ought to be taught
as a social justice movement.
Kev, what are some things people can
look forward to in this show?
- I mean, a, the justification, uh, like one of the, the,
the best well stated
justifications for why it's imperative for all educators
to be teaching about the Palestinian people in
this moment in history.
That's right, that's right.
Um, I think, I think given my journey, uh, when it comes
to learning about, uh, native and indigenous peoples
and the impacts that, uh, settler colonialism
has had on native and indigenous people all
around this world, yeah.
You know, um, I think this episode hits especially hard.
Um, I think it's timely
because I think it is the issue, um,
unfortunately that, uh,
or fortunately, you know, depending on the moment,
just like it took the tragedy of George Floyd,
it takes this type of tragedy for us to finally
shine a light on something that's been going on for a while.
So I think people are in
for a really powerful episode from a thoughtful guest.
Um, and,
and then also, you know, I think always we get back
to the pedagogy and there's some solid tips for what works.
How do we engage students, um,
that show up at the end, right? Yeah,
- That's right.
That's right. And I think, um,
- And, and an amazing top five,
- Yeah, that top five, it - Is fire top five,
- That, that top five is fire.
Um, and also one thing that, uh,
she didn't share on the show, but the she'll
that she will share with me, bro, whenever one
or both of us ever go to Chicago, uh, she has a list
of her top five Palestinian restaurants. Let's
- Go in Chicago, let's go.
Wait. Alright, let's just,
let's just stop this right now and go,
- Let's go, let's go.
Um, yeah. And, you know, this is an individual that,
you know, man, I've been, um, you know, just kind
of ma I I maintain a pretty active social media presence,
and she's one of the folks that, um, that have kind
of come across the, the timeline
and that I've really been able to connect with
and learn from, um, you know, the, the stories of, of the,
of teachers who are Palestinian
and what they're kind of experiencing,
what this moment is meant for them.
We just don't hear enough of those stories.
And some of you might have Palestinian colleagues,
you may have Palestinian students,
and they're strong, they're tough, they're resilient,
they're wise, um, but they're not okay.
And I think it's just important that, that,
that we show some solidarity.
Um, in the coming weeks, um, our friend, uh,
am will come on the show
and, uh, as well as I believe we have a commitment from Dr.
Moona to come on the show as well, to kind
of continue to tell these stories.
But man, you know, I, I, since this, um,
since these atrocities began a month ago, um, I, I've felt
stuck with what to do
because I'm not an expert on the history.
I do. I do have a, a commitment to holding steadfast
with people who are living colonial lives
and ies occupied lives.
Um, but just talking to a, to ABIs today, it,
the big realization that, that I've had lately is like,
you know, they may take our lives,
but our stories make us immortal.
You know, and they make our people immortal
and they make our histories immortal.
And so, I, I think
before anything, it's listen to the stories.
Yep. Yep. All right.
Well, without any further ado, here's our interview with
Palestinian educator from the East Coast by way
of Chicago, uh, Abir.
Ramadan Chini.
Hey, what's good? My peoples, our peoples.
Uh, we are here with our incredible guest, um,
and we've been really looking forward to this conversation
for a long time.
Uh, friend of the podcast, friend of the Twitter account,
welcome to two Dope Teachers and Mike Abir.
Ramadan Chini. How are you?
- I'm good. How are you? - I'm great.
You're dancing and I love that. We are great.
- I'm trying. - Glad to have you. Thank you. We are.
Thanks for having me. We're so glad to have you.
Um, so we, um, we, we,
like so many other folks from marginalized minoritized
communities have watched the situation in Gaza
with such a sense of horror
and a sense of, of just that kind of frustration
that comes from, man, these are, these are histories that,
uh, repeat themselves and they're really painful.
Um, before we kind of get into that,
just tell us a little bit about you
and, you know, a little bit of, of your, uh,
superhero origin story
and, um, you know, how you came to be
who you are, where you are.
- Well, it started with my mom and dad first, but no.
Um, so that, geez, where should I start? .
Um, like I, you know, I always start by saying I'm a child
of immigrants, and growing up I used to think
that was such a, a, a deficit,
and now I wear it like a badge of honor, you know?
Yeah. And the fact that I'm a child of immigrants,
because when I think about what both of my parents
did in order to get to where they are today is
absolutely amazing.
Um, and thinking about all the, all the privilege
that I come with, regardless if I grew up in, you know,
poverty or not, there's all
this privilege that came with it.
So I'm a child of Palestinian immigrants.
Both of my parents are Palestinian.
My mom is actually the refugee, not my dad.
So my mom is from, um, her family's from pre 48 Borders.
Um, so that will be something that is always kind
of interesting to tell people.
Um, and one of six kids who were three girls and three boys.
Yeah. I grew up on the south side of Chicago,
and I think growing up in Chicago, in a city like Chicago,
especially on the south side,
if you know anything about Chicago,
people will tell you geographically where they're located.
- Me, love Chicago, very important. Me and love Chicago.
Yes. It's Chicago. Keeps calling to us, keeps calling
- To us.
Yeah. We had that conversation right Gerardo.
And you have to go back.
Um, I think also saying that we're from the south side
because we have a deep pride of the fact that it has one of,
one of the largest Palestinian populations in the country.
So there's something about growing up with, uh,
being multilingual
and being, um, having more than one culture
and trying to navigate that.
And I almost look at it as three cultures where you're,
you know, you have a little bit of American,
you have a little bit of Palestinian,
and then you have a little bit of city in you
where it's different than growing up in like the suburbs.
So, you know, growing up there was really, uh,
- Pivotal.
Yeah. Kevin knows about growing up in the suburbs, right?
Kevin? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry.
- No, that's - Okay. I'm feel sorry.
I'm, I'm on the, I'm on the end of a,
an 11 hour day, so I'm a little punchy.
Um, but go ahead. So you're talking about, I I
- Love it.
I remember those, uh, long feature days when you start
to be like, halluc, you know, you're hallucinating .
It's like at the end of day you're nothing makes sense.
You don't need to get drunk because just stay
for 12 hours and a snow just,
- Just work a long day.
It feels the same. Yeah. Sorry. So, so No, that's okay.
Talking about how, like,
growing up in the south side of Chicago
- Yeah.
South side, and it, it was, um, it was very, you know,
we know Chicago is a very segregated, racist city,
but even growing up as an Arab in the eighties
and early nineties, um, you tend, I,
for myself, and I know a lot of other people tend
to develop like this complex, are we these people
that the B ds saying or are we not?
Right? I was proud to be Palestinian.
I was proud to speak Arabic,
but, you know, so growing up there, you kind of had
to maneuver and how to, um, live that life.
So, you know, grew up there, um, became a teacher, uh,
which middle school social studies, which is my first love.
I will always be a good school social studies teacher
- Represent.
There's three of us here. There's three of us here.
, there's, right, that's, those are the real
- Ones.
It's, it's the best kind. Right.
And then eventually my husband
and I end up moving to the East Coast.
And we've been in Maryland now for like, over 20 years.
Um, I love living on the East Coast. It's very different.
Um, but my heart will always be in Chicago.
And, and as I've gotten older,
I think I've become more in tune with who I am as a person.
Yeah. Um, upbringing wasn't that easy,
but I think it really helped me develop into who I am today
and, and what I bring with me into education as well.
So kind of a broad sense of
who I am, but, you know. Nah, that's
- Dope.
- We'll dabble into that as we talk.
- Yeah. Why, why'd you wanna be a teacher?
I'm just, this is always a question
that we're really curious about when it,
particularly when it comes to educators of color.
- So at first, I want to be a lawyer and
- Hey, I can see that. Yes.
- Right? Yeah. , I want to be a lawyer.
And my, my, the first semester of my senior year
of high school, I ended up doing an internship
in Springfield, Illinois, which I believe is the land
of Homer Simpson, but people don't wanna admit it. .
- So I went there, right, because
it's Springfield. Okay. Where'd you go?
- Springfield. But, you know, because Springfield's the most
generic name you can have for City.
Right? Right. You named it after Illinois.
So I went there and it was, so this was the early nineties,
so this is 92 to be exact.
'cause I graduated in 93. I'm showing my age,
but, so I go there now, this is pre any type of like,
really digging into women owning themselves,
especially in law.
First of all, it was boring as heck, . Right.
Second of all, all the work was being done
by the paralegal who was a, a woman.
Right. You know, and these
dudes would see these big offices.
And I'm like, I don't know if this is for me.
So I go back to school after my internship
and I, my, I'm trying to decide what I wanna do.
'cause I have like a semester left.
I go to cook college and my principal looks at me
and she's like, you know, you've been socially active.
You've, you've done all this stuff for the community.
You love history. Why don't you be a teacher?
I was like, oh, okay. .
And to be honest, that's how it ended up happening.
I really didn't ever think of becoming a teacher.
I was set on being a lawyer for the longest time.
And I guess, like my friend says,
there are no coincidences in life.
And Mm. From there, that's how I became a teacher.
- Oh, love that. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
I love, I love that your principal
had had enough understanding of you.
And I, I, Gerardo was joking, I went
to school in the suburbs at a large, like,
comprehensive high school, 1200, uh, kids,
and 11 of which were black, uh,
1200 mostly white kids. Right.
- Y'all had a nickname too,
right? Didn't y'all have a nickname?
- Black F The Black Falcon? Shout out. Shout out.
- Which is kind of sick - Like a superhero gang.
It's, it's kind of dope. Like now Yeah. Sounds very better.
. But, uh, I mean, it was cool.
It was cool that, but uh, we, you know,
that your principal knew you that well.
Mm-Hmm. kind of what you had done, you know,
and, and had the ability to say,
Hey, you should be a teacher.
And, um, I think that's powerful.
I tell students that I just transition outta the classroom
and assistant principal, but
I'm like, you should be a teacher.
So hopefully they're listening
and saying that, you know,
sometimes it's a, it's a good thought. It's a good idea.
- Yeah. It's, it's, it's kind of wild too,
because it is funny 'cause we're too dope teachers
and a mic, but, but this reason it's not the number two
because we just highlight Yes.
Two dope teachers, like teachers who are just too dope.
And, uh, and I think that's something Kevin
and I have talked about a lot over the last few months since
he left the classroom, is kind of like, you know,
teaching is our mother tongue, right?
Professionally speaking. Mm-Hmm. .
And so we won't, we won't ever look at education through
like, another lens before we see it as a teacher.
So be for me before, I'm a, uh,
middle management moid.
Um, I'm a teacher , right?
And, um, like, like my teacher hat is on
before, my manager hat is on,
before my administrator hat is on,
before my district leader hat is on.
And I think it's the same thing, um, for Kev.
No, that, that's cool. Um,
- Yeah.
But for context, I did another piece of my upbringing
that I think was very pivotal and, um, who I am today.
So I went to a very small, it was the first at the time,
uh, private school for Muslim girls.
- All right. - Yeah.
So it's similar to the Catholic school.
It was for Muslim girls. It was like six through 12.
So we literally, my graduating class was I think
like 13 people.
So for the principal to know who we were, of course,
because if you have a school of like 200 students, not even,
it was so small, but it was such a close knit community
because everybody knew everybody from the community.
It was part of the community.
Um, and so it was an, a really cool way of
not feeling like an outsider,
although all of our teachers, 99% of 'em speaking of white,
were white women who chose to teach at the school with all
of these, like, they were all, um, brown.
We had maybe one or two, um, black Muslim students,
but they were all children of immigrants
who were Palestinian from that community.
And you had these white women who are phenomenal teachers.
And it was really an interesting way to develop a sense
of self by looking on the outside in, by,
through our teachers, but at the same time,
not losing a sense of ourself
because we were in this like,
insulated bubble with the school.
So that's how my principal got to know me,
because we were such a close-knit community
that she was able to do that.
But she was also, herself was such a, a, a person that was
so, um, introspective.
She was Malaysian and just this amazing,
like, cerebral person.
So I was happy she saw that in me because I wasn't a lawyer
and I didn't know I was gonna be a teacher.
I have no idea what I would've been So
- .
Yes, yes, yes. No, I love that. Yeah. That's real.
Um, you know, I think this idea of like all
anything school ex, you know, the, the, you know, us people
that have been left out, so all black boys school, right?
Oh. Or, you know, a Muslim girl school. Mm-Hmm.
I think is an amazing thing.
But I often wonder, was it, what, how did your, uh,
do you know anything about how your school was started?
Or was it a charter school? No,
- They, it was basically a bunch of people in the community.
So if you know anything about like, especially Arab culture,
like they're very protective
of their daughters, right? Yes.
- Yes. - And again, all of them were immigrants.
So not only were they protective of their daughters,
but they wanted to be very protective of the culture.
Yes. Mm-Hmm. . So these, these, you know, these
dudes basically came together
and said, Hey, I have a daughter.
You have a daughter, let's get together.
Let's start a school. Yeah. Nothing with education.
The man, um, God rest the soul
who started the school was actually an engineer,
like a civil engineer.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. His
daughter was in my graduating class.
And that's basically with a, with a,
which I think if you think of even historically,
like in black communities, yes.
People come together and say, each one teach one,
we're gonna start this little school
and then let's, it grows from there and there.
And that's basically how it started. So, yeah.
- Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. That's dope.
You, you know, I always, you know,
I've always often pondered, I was like, yeah, these people
who are all for religious schools.
Mm. Would they accept a religious, uh,
Muslim or Islamic school?
You know, would Kevin ever, do you mean Kevin?
What do you mean know? It's just the way my brain works.
I dunno if I brain
- Work that - Way. Well,
- And I think, and I think that's, it's ironically, sorry,
the school, ironically though,
although it was predominantly for Muslim girls,
it was very progressive and and liberal in it sense.
Yeah. Interesting. Hijab wasn't, wasn't mandatory.
Like I said, of our teachers were these white non-Muslim
women, , even our principal, Ms.
Maher, who was like, the foundation was an ex Nunn, right?
Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.
So it was such a cool experience that Yeah, that's cool.
It's really more just to preserve culture
and have a place for self identity,
which i, I owe a lot too.
So I think it was a great experience.
- I think that's so important. So important too. Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that. Of course.
So tell us about, tell us about, uh, your experience.
Uh, because me and Gerardo, you know,
I think when we entered the classroom, we,
we realized we were different.
Mm-Hmm. , we were gonna be different than most
of our colleagues, uh, you know, different, uh,
sometimes depending on the community
that you're in from our students, you know?
Mm-Hmm. . Um, but,
but tell us about your experience being a,
uh, first generation immigrant, uh, uh,
a Palestinian educator.
Tell us about that. Mm-Hmm. .
- Um, it has its moments.
Um, I think because, you know, when people meet me
for the first time, they don't automatically think
I'm Palestinian or Arab.
Other things come to mind like, are you Persian?
Are you from Iran? Are you from Pakistan?
And that's interesting. And then trying
to go into the spiral of explaining
to 'em Palestinian, oh, forget that.
Like, you're . Like, where's Palestine?
Like, all of that. Um, so I, when I would teach,
I was always intentional of where I would teach.
And I say that because when I first started teaching,
I taught in Waukegan, Illinois,
which is a suburb north of Chicago.
Okay. Uh, at the time when I was there,
it was either predominantly all Mexican, um,
immigrants, children of, uh, migrant workers,
large black population,
and a few of, uh, some white students who didn't leave
with a white flight just yet. Right?
- Yep. Yep, yep. - And I love teaching there.
And ever since that,
whenever I went to another school, I was very intentional
teaching a school with students who are, you know,
what they, what they would call, you know, um, uh,
minority majority schools.
Yep. Uh, or what I would say, sometimes schools
with a little bit more flavor.
Yep. only
because I also believed that my role as who I am
as a person, I believed it was important for those students
to understand where I came from
and have that experience as well
as a Arab first generation student.
Um, you know, they do see a lot of other ethnicities
or other groups of people, but I felt our students
of color also needed to see somebody who is a teacher
of color, but in a totally different realm
that they're not used to.
And so I was able to connect with them
and then vice versa, even though
there was nothing in common,
like nothing from the background, nothing of the religion.
But there was that piece of, especially if I had children
who were children of immigrants, right?
Yep. Yeah. They would understand that.
Or even students who come from, like we said,
marginalized communities.
We had that connection. So I was always intentional
where I taught, and I never shied away of who I was.
Um, and you all know middle school,
they will be nosy as anyhow, . Oh,
- Yes, yes, yes.
You can't hide yourself even if you try.
- But what I do, like, what I did always like,
because it was almost like a shock factor,
is I would walk into a classroom
and kids automatically, when they see me in the hijab,
think I talk like this.
I have an accent. I don't,
you know, I'm not from the country.
Yeah. The first things that come out
of my mouth is like, my name is Ms.
Aui, I will be your teacher.
I am, you know, one of six kids.
I'm a mother and I grew up on the south side of Chicago.
And that ends up, right? Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, okay.
No, can't do it. So once you do that with them
and they realize that, okay, you know, she is who she is,
kids were a lot more accepting.
So it never really, with students, I don't think I ever,
I had maybe one issue, but that was
'cause the kid was just a kid.
But other than that, I never had issues.
I loved being around my students. Yeah. Yeah.
And they let me be who I was all the time,
which I really, really liked.
- I mean, that tends to be the case,
particularly in communities of color, right?
Yeah. Where this, it's not that the students don't care
who you are, it's that the students are, are ready to,
they're, they're curious about difference.
They're curious about people and,
but they also value you just coming in authentic.
And then they're saying, oh, you said south side. Yeah.
I'm from there too. Cool. Right. , we're good.
And we move on. Yeah.
I mean, my, my experience moving into education, I,
I taught in, um, in alternative ed.
And so, um,
my students were almost divided right down the
middle, uh, black and brown.
That's who I taught. And I always knew that I wanted
to connect with, um, Latina students.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, but the,
the experience I had gr growing up in one of Denver's, um,
oldest, uh, historically black neighborhoods,
was also something that really, um, formed a connection
because I was like, oh, wow, we can connect too.
And it was kind of beautiful.
Um, and so I love, I love what you've said, and you,
and you've said this to me in other conversations about
how being able to
connect across difference when you come from marginal,
marginalized communities Mm-Hmm.
Is really powerful. Like,
no wonder they wanna keep us from reading stories
of other groups.
Mm-Hmm. No wonder they wanna keep our histories from us.
And no wonder they want to, um, take that away from us
and from anybody else because, uh,
kids are, kids are curious.
And Kev, this makes me think of, um, a,
a teacher I know from the school district you went
to high school in who said once, he's like, oh yeah,
he's like this vocal minority that, that wants to attack,
um, diverse books and materials.
And subject matter is like, they don't speak for any
of the kids in my classroom.
The kids in my classroom, who a lot
of them are actually like, white kids are kind of like,
why would we wanna only know about our own people?
Right? Like, we wanna learn about other folks.
We, we know that when we go out into the world,
other people are out there .
You know? Right, right. And right.
And so, um, and so engaging with the global majority,
I think is a really powerful thing.
Um, people
- Don't realize also like setting
those students up for failure.
You know, when you're not exposing them to what the reality
of the world is, you're really setting them up for failure.
And I think as a country, we are so isolated, you know,
geographically where, as opposed to you go to the rest
of the world and people speak more than one language.
Yeah. We hear it's looked down upon.
So I think people don't understand
that when you are talking about diversity in anyway,
whether it's gender, whether it's religion or culture
or what have you, you're setting your students up to be
more open to becoming adults that are more empathetic
and understanding of each other.
And communities that are always rapidly changing.
So it's really detrimental to their students.
- Absolutely. Absolutely.
So when we, uh, come back from a really, uh, quick break,
um, we're gonna talk a little bit about the elephant in the
room, um, and the, the, uh, the, the horrors
that are happening, um, so far away from us that a lot
of Americans aren't thinking about it, um, very much.
We're gonna talk a little bit about the violence
and, um, the destruction in Gaza.
Um, so we'll do that,
and we'll also talk a little bit about the social justice
imperative, um, in our classrooms when it comes to that.
So stick with us. Um,
before we do that, Kev, have you planned for the future,
- Uh, future ?
Like, Sierra's ex better, better dad? The worst dad.
- He is. Like, tomorrow's Friday. . Um, I, you like,
- I'm doing this weekend.
- I don't know, like, I just wanna know what you think
of a behead you, what kind of planning have you
- Done, you think about future?
I've made a little, uh, planning for the future.
Not, not a significant amount, but good.
- I mean, live in the moment, right?
- Live in the moment. But I, I can always plan more. Why?
- No. Well, I got some ideas. I, I want to hear Albi, what,
what, what do you, uh,
what do you think about when you
think about planning for the future?
What comes to your head? You look traumatized
right now. I'm so sorry. .
- I'm, because I'm like, is the future like this weekend?
Or is the future like 10 years? Because
- , I mean, it's kind of like whatever,
whatever you feel the urge to speak to. Like,
- So to be honest, I say when I plan for the future,
I'm gonna take over this world dope.
Like, I dope like to take my stuff
and like just boom, like the gates have opened
for me and I'm ready to go.
So that's dope for the future, as we say in, in Arabic
and Islamic culture and Shaah like to the top Shaah,
we're talking about the future this
weekend, I'm gonna sleep.
- I love it. Um, so we go Kev, Kev, most
of us are not gonna take over the world
like Avi will, right?
Am I right about that? And if some of us are lucky,
Avi might give us a job in her administration
as ruling in the world.
Um, but for the rest of us, we might have to plan
for our financial future, right?
So like, so that's kind of what I'm talking about,
Kiv. So you wanna know what I got?
- What - Do you got? That's kinda what you got too.
So our friends, Alex, and what we got, um, our friends, Alex
and Tous sat investors, uh, who sponsor the show
for shut out, um,
for talking about some of the stuff they do.
Alex is a really dope kid,
and he, like super young, dude is young.
He could be like my son.
Um, he has this like passion for helping educators
to, um, plan for having generational wealth to pass on.
And that's not something we think about with educators,
like generational wealth.
But, um, but he's got a subscription based, uh, plan that,
um, that is informed by his knowledge
of retirement systems all over the country.
And that's really cool. And Tory, his, um,
his amazing spouse is, um, also doing a lot of this work.
Tory also does dope work in supporting women
of color entrepreneurs.
That's cool. That's super cool. Yeah.
So Satera investors, they're very cool.
Um, it's, you know, especially if you're a new teacher,
but even if you're not a new teacher, um,
even if you're a teacher in the loosest sense of the world,
like, you know what a school is, reach out to Alex.
You went to a school, you went to a school
- School this morning.
- Um, you used to work in a school maybe. Yeah, exactly.
Uh, nah. But you know, I think Alex is really earnest dude
who wants to help teachers plan for the future.
So hit 'em up.
Uh, it's Tory
and Alex, um, slash satter investors.com/two dope.
And, uh, they will give you 25% off of a consultation.
Um, hit 'em up. They're good people.
They got the two dope seal of, of approval stare investors.
Alright. And we're back.
We're gonna have them on the show actually, uh,
at some point, Kevin December, uh, to sort
of talk about like, their journey and stuff.
Like, you see these kids
who are like entrepreneurs at like 25.
I'm like, bro, like, why was I not That's impressive
- Thinking.
Why, why, why, what? You can do that. Wait.
I was like, you could. That's how the young folks are.
That's how they are. They're like, wait, uh,
yeah, I skipped levels. Why? Yeah.
- They're like, - You thought you had
to play every level. Come
- On. Well, and here's, here's what I'll
- Point out where you pay attention,
- .
So, uh, I'll point this out,
and this is often a sensitive subject when you have a
multi-generational group.
But we're all Gen X, right? Yes.
These Gen Z like,
they, they are just, they're kind of fearless when it comes
to just going after what they want and doing what they want
and saying what they want and believing what they want.
Um, shout out to my kid who, who's taken part
of every pro-Palestine protest in Chicago
that has happened in the last month.
- Very good. Very good. - Um,
I just wanna point something out about Gen
Z who raised them?
- We did. - Yes. That's our kids. That's true.
We don't have to, but we don't brag.
We don't flex on that. We don't on, we
- We need to.
We're humble. Gen X we're, see, I,
- We, I mean, we don't have to say anything.
We just sit back and we're like, mm.
- I think we do have to say something.
And maybe it's because I employ millennials,
but like, I think we do have to say something.
Shout out to my team. I love my team if you're listening.
Um, but like, like, like, like I, I have t-shirts in mind.
Like, I think we need to rock t-shirts that says
X gonna give it to you
- . Okay.
- Because we did, we're giving 'em,
I think this is the greatest generation in my opinion.
Thoughts. That's
- True.
And you know, the key
to knowing if you did raise good children is if
they like eighties music.
- They do. Yeah. And if
- They wear those T-shirts and they know one song
from the band that they're wearing,
- That's key.
That's the test. Yeah's,
- My, my kid is jealous
that I share a birthday with David Bowie.
Um, that weddings are so
- Jealous.
That's a pretty big one. That's, that's
- Nice.
She even looks at my pictures from like middle school
and high school, and she's like,
why didn't you keep any of that stuff?
Right?
- I like that. We - Could've. I like that. So
- We're, we're back and, sorry, not to , not
to shift too dramatically here.
Mm-Hmm. Um, but we, the, the biggest reason that, uh,
we reached out to you, I, it is that we have this moment
that we're living in, um, atrocities left and right in Gaza.
And there are so many conversations that need to be had.
We're a podcast that looks to amplify the voices of teachers
who come from marginalized, uh, communities.
Um, we look to create a fugitive space for folks like us
who don't always have, we don't always feel the safety
to discuss kind of, um, what it is that we're experiencing.
But I guess, I guess the, the, the question I wanna kind
of launch us off with is talking a little bit about you.
You've referred to this moment as a watershed event. Mm-Hmm.
, um, that is profoundly powerful
and it should be named right now that, that,
that you do not reside in Gaza.
You don't reside in those areas.
And we wanna make sure that we name that,
but talk a little bit about the watershed moment
that is in front of not just you and your communities,
but for all of us.
- Right. Um, I do wanna preface by saying,
when we talk about Reza, we wanna make sure
that they are not separate from the Palestinian people.
They are Palestinian.
Um, I think words are very important
because that tends to create a divide
as if like the West Bank
and are two, they are separated geographically,
but they're all still Palestinians
because also the people who live in haze, uh,
I believe it's 80% of them are also refugees.
Right. So I think it's important for us
to keep that context.
Thank you. The reason you're welcome.
The reason why i, I say this,
and I know a lot of other people are saying it's a watershed
moment, is so I'm almost 50 years old.
I'm not ashamed to say my age.
And I have been going to protests about the freedom
for Palestine since I could walk, right.
Um, protests after protest.
But what I've noticed is as the years have gone by,
the protests have gotten larger and larger
and different groups of people have been entering themselves
in the actual fight for freedom.
And the reason why this is more
of a watershed moment since we're talking
about millennials, right?
Yeah. And we're talking about, um, uh, gen, gen Z
and all those, um, generations
after the murder of George Floyd Uhhuh
and all of that social unrest.
What we don't give enough credit to the young students
is the fact that they no longer just identify
with themselves as who they are as a person.
Sure. I know kids who will identify, you know, I'm a,
you know, I am, I'm a, a proud black male, you know,
cisgender, all that.
But that doesn't stop that student from thinking of fighting
for the freedom of Palestinians
because it's all interconnected.
And what I call a social justice movement
and why it's a watershed moment is
because now the world is looking at what's happening in,
in Palestine and in because,
and this blew me back when I heard it,
but it's the last imperialistic, colonic bastion
of the 21st century, right?
So we are living in a time that a lot of students
read about or learned about in a history class,
where now they're seeing it unfold live,
but they're connected to something that, like I say,
they have no dog in the fight.
But they understand that the concept of when I fight
for freedom for one group of people, that means I'm fighting
for freedom for all groups of people.
That's right. So the watershed moment comes in the fact
that it's no longer just about Palestinians.
It's no longer just about, you know, Israelis versus Arabs
or Muslim or this, it's about everybody.
And that's why I believe it's
so important when I talk about teaching Palestine,
which also is controversial,
why it's considered a social justice movement.
So that was, that's a moment,
is the fact that it's changed.
The shift has changed so fast at the fact
that this has happened.
And I'm just looking back and thinking, wow.
Like I've never thought
or imagined that this would've happened.
- Yeah. So let's, let's expand on
that piece just a little bit.
Um, you, you've said this and,
and the, the more I come back to this, um,
to this statement that, that you've made about
that there's an imperative for teachers right now
regarding not just teaching Palestine to your point,
but also teaching this moment.
What do you think the, the social injustice,
this social injustice like, I mean, hey, 40 and slate. It's
- Technically - .
Yeah. Um, what do you think the social justice imperative is
of teaching Palestine?
- So the social justice imperative,
it is not any different than talking about
apartheid in South Africa.
It's not any different than talking about Northern Ireland
or the IRA or let's not even go to other countries.
It's not any different than talking about what happened,
the displacement of the indigenous
populations in this country.
So when we talk about land confiscation in Palestine,
the reason why people here can't connect with it is
because this is part of the history that's been taught.
Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. When you're taught about indigenous
populations, you know, it's just like, oh yeah, they came
and all of a sudden, you know, you have these populations
and then out of nowhere they just either don't exist
or there are these little plots of land
that are called reservations.
And then you have, you know, the biggest, one
of the biggest tragedies, which is the Indian Removal Act.
But that concept of land confiscation is,
has become the norm in the psyche of people.
So that's one area. But then if you talk about the
continuous, um, history of violence towards
community of color in this country,
it's no different than what has happened.
It's almost like the same playbook
that you find in Palestine.
If you're talking about segregation in Palestine.
If you go through the checkpoints,
we can look no further than 50 years ago with Jim Crow
and segregation in America.
Right. If you wanna talk about having dual citizenship,
it's the same thing when you had signs that said, you know,
um, no dogs, no whatever, no Mexicans.
It's no different than when you put people in
what we call as a concentration camp
that happened to Japanese Americans,
where now they're calling them concentration camps.
They're not calling them in German camps.
'cause words matter. Right? It is a concentration camp.
And also the use of concentration camp is important
because that was also a word developed by the British
and Africa, where they held a group
of people in a concentration.
So the reason why this is imperative is
because none
of it may be a different location in a different time.
The acts and what's happening are no different than they
were a hundred years ago than they are today.
And making those connections are so important.
And as a history nerd, why it's important for kids
to understand, what I used to always tell my students is,
the reason why you learned about something
that happened 200 years ago is
because it's still impacting you today.
So that's the imperative piece
of why teaching Palestine is no different than any other
social justice movement that's happened all over the world.
And like I said, forget about the rest of the world.
Let's just talk about our country.
- That's right. - Yeah. That's
- Right.
That's right. Yeah.
It's, um, it, it is in,
because I, you know, what we need
to be doing is connecting the dots, right?
That when we talk about settler colonialism,
that doesn't just mean in one place, you know,
involving two groups of people, right.
That the, these are things that, that we see, um, that,
that we see globally as, as all a part
of kind of the same thing.
Just a quick follow up,
and this may seem like a really obvious
question, uh, to answer.
Um, why is it that historically, um,
the, the situation
of Palestine has not been taught in the same manner
that some of the other social justice movements have been,
that we've looked at, and I'm thinking in particular,
the way that the,
that the civil rights movement has been appropriated, um,
to mean whatever, whoever's teaching about it
or making television commercials off of it,
uh, cease to gain.
Why, why has it not been treated
that way in, in the white stream?
I mean, the mainstream,
- Right.
I think we have to look farther than just talking about
Palestine in, in 48 and pre 48,
because the history of Palestine doesn't start with the nbe,
or 1948, the, the entire region has been
a place where European powers have always wanted
to have a foothold in it.
Columbus got lost, right? Trying to find a route to India.
But he wanted to avoid that region
because, you know, Europeans didn't have a foothold in it.
Um, we're talking about the time of Napoleon who tried
to take over in that country.
We talk about the crusades, all of it.
So that entire region has always been like this fantasy, um,
bastion of control for, for Western Europe.
And the reason why it's not taught
that way is for a number of reasons.
Number one, of course, we know, um,
racially we're not white.
And anytime you wanna talk about a, uh, a particular group
of people, how else are you going to be able to, um, uh,
ignore them or make them invisible without dehumanizing them
or marginalizing them and making them seem other,
which is already happening right now.
Number two, it's very geopolitical.
It's not in the best interest to have students understand
that there are people there
who are indigenous and that they've been there.
It doesn't help with the geopolitical side either.
You know, we can talk about the religious aspect as well
with the evangelicals
and people who think that it's their right
as well when there are Christian Palestinians
who are being persecuted, but they're
looked at as others as well.
We also have to talk about,
it's not even just why not Palestine?
How many of us have learned about the Chicano movement?
Right? Right. Or how many of us have learned about, um,
Asian Americans and their movement?
How many of us know that Yemeni Americans fought
with Cesar Chavez?
Like, there are little pieces of history that we don't,
why is Martin Luther King taught and Malcolm X not taught?
Why is Marcus Garvey looked at is this way, as opposed
to he had this really strong BA of what he wanted to teach.
So teaching Palestine is no different than any
other type of history.
And the fact that it has to be othered,
it has to be ignored.
Because a big companies who write the curriculum, put in
what they wanna put in it is very biased.
And at the same token, the less you tell people about the
facts, the less they know.
And then that way they can't really
question what's going on.
And so that's why it's been that way for, for decades.
Um, and even now, when you talk about the civil rights
movement, is it really taught with fidelity?
Like we talked about Rosa Parks,
and we still look at figures as being these poor,
you know, helpless people when in fact they were badass.
Oh, yeah. They were very intentional.
So I know that's a long-winded answer,
but there's so many not at all nuance to go with it.
But it's, again, not any different than any other history
that's being taught right now.
So a lot of that, you also have very strong lobbies who
create the sense of fear of when you teach it,
or you talk about, or even saying Palestine has become
like this, people freak out.
And it's like, well, what do you wanna call me?
Like, should I just walk around, call myself, me?
I don't get it . Right. You know,
- I mean, we, we know in some people's
minds that's what they'd want.
Right? Like they, ideally they,
they'd be like, yeah, that's great.
You know? But I think I just wanna thank you, uh, Avi,
for, for what you said about the importance of why,
uh, it's important for us to teach this moment.
Mm-Hmm. right this moment.
What is happening to the Palestinian people,
what their history, what has been happening.
Um, and, um, I I just see it
as very powerful for all of us.
Right, right. And insightful, because we are seeing,
and I love the way you said it, we're seeing
that settler colonialism play out in real time
and in this country, we don't wanna talk about it
because it is our history.
Right. It is our history.
It's a history that, uh, people have tried to erase.
They don't want it taught, you know, in Texas, they're,
they're gonna remove Native Americans
altogether from textbooks.
Right. So, um, I think it's so important that we look at it
and realize, and I think, um,
the kids are, are demanding it.
And so I I, I would
be remiss if I didn't ask you this question.
I have a student, um, at my school, she is an a,
an Iraqi refugee.
Mm-Hmm. . Um, she has been working
with other students at our school to organize a walkout
for tomorrow for, uh, Palestine, for the Palestinian people,
uh, demanding a ceasefire, you know, expressing her voice,
um, her perspective.
This is something she, you know, is one of these Gen Zers,
who is
- It?
Who I think it is, is it
- Who I think it is?
I, I think you could probably guess who it is, who was told,
you know, Hey, uh, wait, maybe it's too soon.
Maybe you gotta wait.
Maybe you shouldn't do this, you gotta do this. You know?
But she has pushed and worked to organize.
Uh, what would you say to that young student
and all the other young students, uh,
whether they be Arab or not?
Mm-Hmm. , whether they be Palestinian or not.
All of the students, like you noted, you know,
the same students who engaged in, uh,
dedicated Black Lives Matter protest, right?
What, what, what, what would you say
to those kids right now?
- So the first thing I would say to your Occu student,
she's a occu refugee, so you can't tell her nothing .
- And, and we know their family.
You can't tell their family nothing
- There.
You don't, you can't, I mean,
I just wanna focus on them really quick,
because again, um, unfortunately, had Iraq used to be
one of the, um, most well
educated places on earth, men and women, right?
So when the war happened in had Iraq, it was a
devastating blow to the Arab world, okay?
So Araki people are very proud people.
They're very, very well educated people.
But what they went through, um,
and why I say you can't tell her nothing is
because there's nothing that she can fear.
She's been through a war, she's been the refugee.
She had to adapt to a new culture.
You have to adapt new language.
So she's coming in thinking,
what's the worst that's gonna happen to me?
What you're gonna tell me? I can't say
something, you know, bring it on.
So I would say to her like,
there's nothing stopping her, number one.
Right? Okay. Yeah.
But then number two, and thank you for asking that, Kevin,
because I was actually in a meeting today.
Um, there was an incident
that happened at a school, local school here.
And one of the jobs that I have is student advocacy.
And of course I do Arab and Muslim students.
It did start off with a Muslim student,
all about Palestine and everything like that.
But his friends wanted their voice to be heard
because the school was ignoring them.
And I was like, no, bring it on. Right?
So I was in a room with seven juniors from a high school.
Now, the one student who was Muslim, the rest
of the students were either identified from like El Salvador
or Honduras, and the rest were students
who identified who were black.
Every single one of them, they have no,
like I said, keep saying no dog.
In the fight about Palestine, the words
that they kept saying was, number one,
we're here to support our friend.
Number two, what the teacher was saying was wrong.
And number three, we're gonna speak
up because we know it's right.
And the fact that what I would tell these kids is like,
we keep saying, you keep saying it until what?
Until your voice shakes, right?
And these kids are not our generation either.
These kids know, and they've learned,
and again, I believe like the murder of George Floyd
and all of, all of the brutality that kids have seen,
they're not gonna take it anymore.
So what I would say to them is, if you know
what you're doing is right
and it benefits everybody, you have nothing to worry about,
you're gonna get opposition.
But my favorite quote by Dr.
Bettina Love, who's one of my heroes, is she says,
if you don't have enemies in what you're doing,
then you're not doing it right.
You know? And it's true.
If you're not gonna get opposition, you're not gonna grow.
You're not gonna know how to maneuver.
But what I would tell these students is you're fighting the
good fight because you know the future for you is better.
And just keep going. And again, like going back to
that Raki student, we can learn so much from her
and you're not gonna stop her.
So no matter what you say,
and these kids aren't, they really are, they're so dedicated
to the concept of equality and social justice.
Like, I left the meeting today with these seven students.
I don't think I've ever, like,
I've been going through so much.
All of us have. And I left, I, I look at my, my colleague
and I'm like, damn.
Yeah, the kids are all right.
Like, just the way they were speaking
and then the way they were emoting their
energy and their emotion.
Like, listen to them.
Just take time to listen to these kids.
So that's what I would tell them.
I would tell them, keep going.
'cause I'm get it. That's what I always do.
- You tell him, uh, get it girl,
you got this. Go ahead. Sorry, Kev.
- No, I mean, I, I think that's, that's, that's
so important I think for the kids to understand.
And, and, and I see, I see something special
and I get that same feeling.
Mm-Hmm. whenever I see the kids
that I'm like, whoa.
Wow. Right. All right, y'all, y'all,
hey, y'all paying attention.
Y'all are paying attention. Y'all are engaged.
Y'all are ready to go.
If it, if it, I'm just,
and I always say this to teachers in my building, I'm like,
if we hit 'em right, you can't stop 'em.
Nope. You know, it's just, are we comfortable with
where they wanna go and what they are about?
And if you let them drive, I will tell you they will drive.
Oh yes. They, they know exactly where they're going.
They know ways to get there better than we do. Mm-Hmm.
They, they, they, they skip
- Levels.
Skip skip levels was something, there was something
that was said by one of the students today.
So the whole concept was this teacher made all the students
feel uncomfortable about something that was going on.
What I valued was the fact that not once did the students,
uh, disrespect the teacher at all.
Right. Not once.
Like, they were critiquing just the whole method
to the point where one student even said he is like,
you know, if the teacher gave us time
where she just didn't make it personal in the classroom,
I would've loved to talk to her outside of class
and get to know what her thoughts were.
Like, this is a junior in high school.
Like, adults don't know how to do that. No.
And when he said that, I was like, yo, like,
and this teacher doesn't wanna take time
to get to know her students.
Like what a missed opportunity.
- Absolutely. Missed opportunity.
- Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
So that's, I think one
of the things I would love is just I wish teachers would
take more time to listen to their students, hear
what they have to say, and support them.
It's not us against them.
It should be us, with us, us with them.
Like, yeah, okay, we're the teachers and all,
but we can learn so much from 'em.
And there's so many missed opportunities.
- Yeah. Ah, makes me miss the classroom too. Mm-Hmm.
. Because I think like the, you know,
young people, um, in particular,
and you know, this is a student that, that Kevin
and I both have.
I was gonna say we've taught,
but I also feel like we've been her student.
Um, yes, definitely. Yes, definitely.
And, um, definitely there's a legacy.
There's only one sister that I don't know, um,
I think there's five of them.
I believe so. And the family. And,
and they've all just been such a powerful presence.
And you know, the thing is that when we, when we refuse
to hear how, how young people are making sense
of this terrible moment that, um, that we're living through
as a world, like, and that's the thing that kills me, is
that so many of us don't even realize that we're also living
through this moment like that, that this,
this has implications for all of us, uh, marginalized
or not, um, living in, um, living in the region or not.
This has implications for all of us.
Like, we just don't, like, we don't credit young people
for processing these things for us.
And I, I personally, you know, I always used
to always tell my students that feels like a little bit
of an unfair situation
because they all just get to learn from me.
Um, but I get to learn from all of them.
And so they need to also be able to learn from each other
and, and, uh, and, and be successful
and in, in healing the role that we have around us
and letting 'em do their thing.
'cause it's, um, it's really powerful.
Um, I mean, this has been an amazing conversation
and, um, we really just look forward to all of you, um,
really listening to what young people are saying.
'cause here's the thing, is that we are seeing youth
movements across the world right now, um, that
as, as has said, they're looking at, no,
we're not talking about who we're fighting against.
We're looking at how we can be united together, um, to
face and address a problem.
Mm-Hmm. , that is a global problem
that just happens to be, um, on our radar right now.
We have an opportunity to stand together.
And so, um,
it's just such a beautiful thing to kind of think about.
Is there anything else you wanna share with us
before we get into the most important part of the show?
- ? Um, no, I think, you know, we've,
we've covered a lot.
And I, I think one last thing I would like to say, only just
because of everything that's going on is, is I want people
to just get to know, like the Palestinian people have been
so dehumanized since this entire war has started.
I want people to just take the time
and just get to know who the Palestinian people are.
It almost seems like we're just this foreign entity, right?
Yeah. And people are like,
well, I don't know where to start.
And, and well reach out.
You know, I'm, I'm sure you can put my information on, um,
your website and everything here,
and I'm more than happy to give you a thought partner.
But I want people to learn more
and take the time to understand who the people are
and what we do and what we stand for.
Because we do love life.
And we've got some amazing food
and some amazing music and everything.
And, you know, so just, just, I want people
to really take some time to honor that.
- Yeah. Um, I wanna, two things I wanna share
before we go into Mm-Hmm.
Our top five. Um, my daughter, uh, posted this on,
on her Instagram story.
I had to pull it up. Um,
because we talk about the dehumanizing impact
of what's happened, um,
and where she's,
where she posts Israel has now murdered more Palestinians in
24 days than nine 11 Pearl Harbor, 30 year war with the
nor in the north of Ireland combined.
Yep. And those, I don't understand how those numbers
don't have life.
Um, on a lighter note, uh, Kev, a student that you
and I both had at one point, um, went on that, um, on
that trip that we did, what was, what was the organization
that, um, ah, now I can't remember.
Anyway, a trip that took them to Jerusalem
and took them into all these different, um, communities,
Palestinian communities, uh,
Jewish communities, owing communities.
Like it's super Yes, yes. Meet the Middle East.
It's called Middle East. Meet the Middle East. Okay.
And, uh, and now the founder
of Meet the Middle East is a congresswoman, um, here, yes.
Colorado. And she's incredible. Um, Iman, Judah, Iman Juah.
Wow. I'm remembering. I'm like, so anyway,
so the student went, and of course, I love soccer.
I love underdogs.
I love the, um, the notion of people
who have been de denied the right
to basic humanity, finding a voice.
I ha Oh, I have to turn off my,
- Oh yeah.
The Palestinian flag as a shirt.
- No, no, it is, hold on.
Um, I keep forgetting
that when I've got a virtual background.
Yeah. So it's actually the, um, the
Palestinian National Team, national Soccer Team.
Oh, very cool. Nice. Um, which,
which has not been recognized by the FIFA, obviously,
of course, but of course it's allowed to.
But they do compete in, um, in the Asian Confederation, um,
in these World Cup qualifiers.
And, and what's really interesting is that it wasn't
until the last few years of my career
that I actually had the courage to teach about things like
Palestine and that the, you know,
to really dive into human rights
as a centering force in my history classrooms, this student
knew that I would appreciate this.
- Oh, I love it. - And grabbed it in a
market and brought it back. So, um,
- They were thinking of you.
Can I just make one last comment really
quick before we get Absolutely.
Here. So another reason why, um,
talking about Palestine teaching it is very similar and,
and connected to all the other social justice movements.
Um, I said this, when this also first started,
the language is also very, very similar.
So when everything happened, people were going around
and saying, oh, you know, Palestinian men, they're going in
and they're raping women
and they're doing all of these horrific things.
Came out to be false. Completely
- False, completely fabricated.
- Exactly. These are the same narratives they used against
black men in America forever.
That got them lynched, that got them killed,
that got their Tulsa, Oklahoma bombed.
Yep. So I want students,
and this is very important for students to understand
that language has evolved,
but they're using just different people
and different tactics, and it's very important how
dangerous that can be.
And the fact that I have brothers
and I'm married to a Palestinian man
and all that, that that's not who we are.
But again, seeing the similarities between black
and brown men just doesn't change.
It's in a different location.
So it's important for kids to understand that
and understand the language that's being used. So yeah.
- And I'm even with that, and even
after that bogus report was, was debunked,
the, the best, the best response
that mainstream media could come up with was, well,
we don't know that it didn't happen.
Like, like we, we things may have.
And, and that was the part that just blew my mind.
I'm like, we would not say this about another group. Yeah.
We would not say this about another group.
We don't even say this about the Russians.
And that's who like, has been kind
of public enemy number one ever since
the invasion of Ukraine.
So, I mean, I think, and that's the thing,
we just gotta be a lot smarter , um, about like,
not just like naming it,
but also saying, no, we actually have
to say this was fabricated
and analyze why, why was it okay
to fabricate a story about this group
of people when it wouldn't be okay
to do so about other people?
Absolutely not. Yeah. Yep. Kev, should we do this?
- Yes. Let's end on a, on a much lighter note. A
- Ah, I don't know if this is a light note.
- I mean, no, this is, if - You don't know
how our si you don't know how our sister prepared for this,
- But, okay.
Oh, this is, this is big. This is big.
- You don't know how our sister thinks about hiphop.
Like, you know, this is our, we have people who gave us a,
a false top five
and saying, listen, uh, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna catch hell if people hear this.
I'm not real give you this, this is not real.
I'm just gonna, this is, I'm gonna say some names.
Kev Te I'm gonna stop interrupting you. . I
- Mean, I mean, you're just,
you're just building the anxiety.
I am. I'm like, for my own
- Anxiety.
- Alright, so this is, there is no pressure.
This is like none all for fun at all.
love, like, wherever we go, that's where we go.
Uhhuh, , uh, this, this is your word for now,
doesn't have to be tied to you forever.
Nope. You know, as, as we said, people have falsified
what they shared with us versus what they really think.
That's all right. Some people might
say that's faking the funk.
Gerardo does. I don't , but Yeah.
Well, I will say this.
We, we, our tradition is we love to ask our guests
what their top five favorite rappers
or rap groups or artists could be an r and b artist.
Okay. It could be, uh, rock artists.
We've had appear on the list, we've had a variety.
Uh, we've had Top Five Seeds, which was a great episode.
If you have it. Do you remember that,
- Gerardo? No.
- Top Five Seeds. You have to go back. Oh,
- I do remember that.
Yes. Do you remember that? Oh my gosh, yes. Top five Seeds.
, what are we doing on this
podcast? What are we doing?
- We've had all sorts of great stuff, you know,
stuff from authors to, to whatever.
So do not feel tied down
because we say, uh, rappers
or hip hop artists, take it wherever you want.
We're just lovers of hip hop and rap.
But, uh, I, and,
and then I'll just put this out there too. Yeah. Come on,
- Man. Get to the rules
- While, while it's a top
five. Yeah. What are the rules? Yeah,
- What are the rules?
- Why are there rules? - I'm like, I'm like,
you're building this up
and then like, sis just wants to know
what the rules are. . Mm-Hmm.
- . The, the top five are, it's,
it's a top five list of course,
but, uh, you know, you can have ties two, two number threes,
three number threes if you want. Say we call
- That the air, say we call that the Eric Hale rule.
Uh, Eric Hale 2021 Texas Teacher of the Year somehow managed
to weasel in 25 rappers into his top five.
Oh. Um, and so, and then he was like,
but if it was the top 10, it would be.
And then he, like, Eric, shout out Eric, never change.
Who love you. Never change. Also, is it hierarchical?
Kev, I'm just trying to get, get
- You there quicker.
I could get there if you stop interrupting me.
, you always gotta tell the Eric Hale story
- Because that's my, - That's my, it was an important
moment, but still funny.
Be, be top five seed.
Alright, I, whenever somebody says that,
- I don't think I have any particular order.
- That's, - That's fine. That's fine. Like
- Hierarchy is white supremacy. So
- I always, yeah, hierarchy is white supremacy.
I always have to say like, I think
she doesn't get enough credit,
but I always put her in a different category.
I have to say Lauren Hill instead, my list
- People get so mad.
Lauren Hill is just here
and people get so mad that she decolonize time.
Um, and that's, um, I, I feel
- Colonizes time people ard go to work
- Value seeing Lauren Hill more than we value going to work.
Like I've been waiting for, I've been waiting
for Lauren for 30 years. All right.
- Um, I've always loved Eric
being Rakim. I always thought they were.
- Yes. Yes. So - Smooth.
- Ah, yes. You're speaking to me. You're speaking to me.
- That is true. - Um, gee, you know,
I'm not good when I'm like on my feet for this.
Um, let's see.
So I have definitely, if I'm gonna say Lauren,
how Helm definitely gonna say, I mean, I, I've always,
the Fujis was my college album.
Mm-Hmm. So that's Yes. Eric being Rakim.
- Yes. - I think my brothers would disown me if,
of course I didn't say Tupac, but all,
- Alright, - with
- PAC and PA Pac, international
International, uh, relevance. Intercultural
- Relevance.
- Absolutely. Spock Spot. I
- Have to, to really, if I wanna say a tie for me,
I'm a huge fan of the Roots.
I think Black is one of the best, like,
- Thank you - Anything.
But also KR RSS one.
Like you can't talk about hiphop
or anything without KRS one. Oh,
- That's right.
- No particular order,
but those are the ones that I think are like my top five.
- That, that, that's a hot list. That's a, i that's
- A real hot list.
- I put that list on repeat. I put that list on. I
- Mean, you could put on them like, I have track called
Quest, my friend got those and De La Soul.
But you know, list can go on and on.
But I think those would be my top. Definitely my top. Ooh,
- Shoot.
You should have been nervous. What you,
you, what you nervous about?
You from, oh, I forgot.
We forgot you from the south side of Chicago.
- Wait, there's no Chicago rappers on there.
You, I mean Chicago rappers on there. Well, you
- Know, I mean we're All right,
we'll, we'll get by. We'll do that another
- Time. That's true.
- That's - All's true. Oh yeah.
- That's a whole other, that's a whole other thing.
- But I'm a huge fan of Common
and a lot of people in Chicago are like,
- can't comment, been around too long.
He, he's been too successful.
- And I dunno if we wanna claim Yeezy anymore, but We'll,
- That he's problematic.
- Hold, - Hold on.
- No, no, no, no, no. Kev, you open the can of worms, bro.
Like, okay. I'm always the one coming for Yeezy
and you're always the one defending him, sir.
- But come on. The graduation I think was one
of the best albums,
- I feel like.
And I feel like the tables have turned
because like eight, like eight Oh eight's in heartbreak.
Oh, man. And when, when our, when our daughter decided to go
to college in Chicago, I,
I played homecoming like every day. Oh yeah.
- That's a great one. That's a good, that's good. All.
- So I had Keal appreciate this.
Aaron Thompson, shout out Aaron, uh,
he's the chief legal counsel of Denver Public Schools.
Came up to me at one point
before I really fully knew who he was.
And he says, all right, question for you,
what's your top five rappers
and why are they all Lupe Fiasco?
- Oh, . That, that was, that was his question.
You're like, dang. Okay. Like
- That.
I mean, you know, Lupe Fiasco.
Yeah, you can definitely say he's on that list.
But I mean, I love Lupe and I love his, his music,
but if you're talking about top five, thoses gotta be.
- Yeah. I don't know if I can put it, I don't know if I can
put him top five, but he, I think, I think eventually
his catalog we'll put in there, like the stuff
that he's putting together. Um, he's
- Prolific ke he's - Very, I watched
our, I watched our action Rapper
- With a Conflict.
He's another.
- Yep, yep. - Oh yeah.
The, but Kev, I, I watched our guy Manuel Rustin of the,
um, all of the above podcast.
I watched him do a lesson on Go Allen, um, which is just,
and have y'all heard this song by Lupe?
Yeah. So it's so intense and,
and Lupe did it so beautifully that like, it allowed me
to see a world in which, um, Alan lives and yeah.
Like is is a hero.
And it just like, for hip hop to have
that kind of power is amazing. Um, yeah,
- I think my equivalent author to hip hop who I have,
I'm a huge fan of is Jason Reynolds.
Um, I think he's
- Just amazing.
I dunno any of his stuff. I have to check it out.
- Yeah, you had, he's a young, you know,
he's a young author, young adult author.
And um, he's in the DC area, but I'm a huge fan.
And his, his, he did stamp remix, the one Indian, that one,
but just his, his his Aura
and how he writes, he, he, he writes with
that thought in mind
and yeah, he's an equivalent of hip hop or r and b.
That's definitely Jason Reynolds. So
- Yeah.
Long, long way down ghost. Like this is all good stuff.
Mm-Hmm. And he's the one, Kev, he's the one that did the,
um, the stamp from the beginning.
Adaptation. Yeah. With, uh, Dr. Ken.
Uh, no, that's, ooh, that's a good call out right there.
Yeah. That's dope. Ramadan.
This was a blast. When are you coming back?
- When you invite me back. It - Took us
- Get here, - It took us a long time to get here,
but now, now we need you back. Um, this is
- Beautiful.
I'll be back whenever you want me.
I had a blast and it was nice
to finally meet Kevin 'cause I thought he didn't
exist. That's
- Right.
A lot of people don't think Kevin exists.
He, he comes out of the woodwork at
- Times.
Actually, I'm not gonna come back until I get one of those,
uh, those that graffiti
- Background. Yeah.
- Yeah. We're, we're gonna make, uh,
coloring sheets available too. Hopefully
- We can hook you up.
- Get a shirt, get it on. Dang. I
- Think all the, all the merchs the kids
- Say we got a couple yo, we got a couple of shirts.
We gotta get out there. We gotta get out
that spirit healer shirt, man. Like, so. Well you have
- To get it because if I'm gonna be going on the road
with all the conferences and so I'm gonna go to,
I gotta wrap and let people know.
That's it. Fucking billboard.
- Love it. Well, thank you so much
for joining us on the show.
Thanks for This is amazing.
Um, really excited for people to hear this.
And um, so
what we'll do is I'll ramble just a little bit like I always
do, uh, but it'll be more of a concluding ramble.
And when I cue you, we will all say state open together.
All right. 'cause that's what we're trying to do is
through it all, we're just gonna stay, stay dope
through violence, through pain,
through sunshine, through rain.
My bad. Um, , um, through it all, we invite you
to stay connected, stay fighting for justice, stay unified,
stay in solidarity, stay paying attention to
how stories are told, not just what stories are told,
but I'll tell you above, beyond everything, make sure
that you always stay
Attention.
Please attention please.
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