Welcome to the Toll podcast.
I'm Garrett Ryan, and my guest today is
Matthew Blair. Matthew, welcome to the program.
Hi, doctor Ryan. Hey, everyone. Fantastic to be
here.
It been a huge fan of the channel
for a very long time. So, like, you
know, finally, you know, being here is is
absolutely amazing. So... Oh, well, very glad to
hear. Has pleasure to have you on as
well.
So it's a typically Matthew The people on
my show are dry is dust academic. And
you've had a much more interesting career path.
So if you please tell a little bit
about yourself and about what you do, to
want this into this whole thing.
Yeah.
Not, you know, not to say academia academia
is
necessarily tri boring, but, yeah, It's it's been
a little little bit different.
I I do have a bachelor's.
So, like, you know, that... That's... About as
far as I've been. But, like, I I
was a... I have a bachelor's in history
from...
Steps University,
and,
I've been a fan of ancient history since
I
couldn't... Since I knew how to read,
but the reason why I'm here today is
because I write comic books or at least
I aspire a a comic books for a
living.
Piece of advice it's extremely difficult to watch
get to a point where you can, make
a living off of it.
But
If you've been a fan of the Youtube
channel for a while, you've probably
maybe seen, ads for the, book I'm doing
it for the book, I'm,
talking about,
for this
podcast interview, Modest Magic k,
this 1 right here. So...
Mh.
Yeah. We've got 2 issues out so far,
and we've got a third 1 funding on
kickstarter. So,
you know, that's, you know, who I am
and where I come from and why we're
here today.
Oh, well, fantastic.
So launch right into the heart of this
interview.
What makes comics a unique way to tell
stories?
Alright. Yeah. So,
believe it or not, there's actually...
Some debate over what a comment
actually is, which seems, you know, hard to
believe, but, you know, it was never really
us, it it was never really
discussed and it was never really,
formalized.
If you're someone like me,
there's a very sort of broad definition of
what that means.
I believe it's just, you know, stories told
with pictures.
So if you're... You know, if you go
by that very broad definition,
there's, you know, a lot of things over
what is a comic... Or, what is a
comic?
You know,
you go back to, like, ancient history, you
have, like, cave paintings. And then, like, you
go to, like the Egyptians, they have, like,
you know, these the these massive sort of
tableau of, like,
life
painted on, like, the walls of, far tombs.
But you also have things like,
you know,
statues and F and...
All that stuff you would find an ancient
greece in Rome and, like,
you know, these these...
What what you would see on like Vivo...
As well, Like, you know, these these stories
instead of paper they're told in stone, which
is, you know, a fantastic way of putting
things, someone should really jump on that
but, I mean, the the the real,
like, what what we think of comics
really started,
really sort of kicked off with the advent
of the printing press as most things did.
And so the challenge
of story of telling a story back then
is how do
you
impart information to an audience that doesn't necessarily
know how to read very well.
And the answer is pictures.
So you have,
like, you know, in the early days of
the printing press, like early days. You have,
like, medieval pamphlet volunteers,
who would,
you know, deliver news on, like, you know,
the these you know, sheets of,
cheap paper,
and, like, you know, they'd have
you know, pictures to, you know, explain what's
going on.
And then, eventually, what that would involve... Would
evolve into would be newspapers, and it started
off with, like, editorial cartoons, which were like,
the the big ones. Mh. And, eventually,
it morph into, sort of like, the first
sort of great age of comic books, which
were,
newspaper strips.
You know, these these really rose into popularity
in, like, the late 18 hundreds, especially in
in the United States where you would have,
like,
pulitzer us and hurst, they would compete to
who could for who would sell more newspapers.
And,
comics were a big part of that. You
have,
strips like Felix the cat by Pat Sullivan.
You have
my adventures of, my adventures the adventures of
Little Ne and Slumber land by Mh. Windsor
Mack mckay, and you have, like, the political
cartoons of Thomas Nas.
Who if you don't know who that is,
he's the reason why you know what Santa
Claus looks like. Mh.
Absolutely dead serious.
And so, you know, you have,
so that's that's what it is. It's a
way to tell...
Stories with pictures, and sometimes words. And then
eventually, what, you know, that evolved into was,
people would start collecting, like,
collections of strip of, newspaper strips into a
book format, and that's How we eventually got
to comic books.
So it's it's a very
rich and detailed history, but it's also, like,
very very recent. Like, we're talking about people
who, you know,
this is still living memory for some people
as opposed to, you know, ancient where,
ancient days where we don't
you know, no recollection. And, you know, no
1 no 1 remembers the... No no 1
living remembers the Roman Empire. But Right. Yeah...
So,
Okay. Well, that's a nice way of putting
up both that longer history of comics as
our visual art captioned or otherwise. And then
more recent history in in pulp media. Right?
You know, newspapers above all and then eventually
the comic book.
And you know, I I often think about
medieval manuscripts often have these wacky g texts
in the margins, which have an interplay with
the text we're often a Bible or a
a tome or something.
And it's it's almost a whether it's material
whatever else is. It's an interplay. And so
there is a long tradition of this. But,
course, context as we know them are a
hundred years old give or take and comic
books even more recent.
So thinking about this recent more narrow definition
of comics as, you know, the book format
we're familiar with.
How
test the very broad question first.
How have comics in this form been linked
to ancient history and mythology?
Alright. So
it wasn't initially
linked to the Greeks and Roman.
The early
comics and cartoons that we saw from the
18 hundreds,
were very
of their time,
and they were very
they were a lot more concerned with, you
know, the,
you know, the common man like a lot
of...
Early cartoons were set, like, the slums of
New York City.
So there wasn't a whole lot of room
for ancient Greek Roman Mythology.
You know, not to say that,
modern, not to say that the classics are
sn, but,
historically speaking, the,
classics were reserved for the wealthy and powerful.
With that said, you see this in a
lot of like, political cartoons where, like, you
have characters like Columbia and Britannia, who assume
like, the trapping. Mh. Of,
Greek roman imagery, like, you know, the dress,
the helmet, the, like perceived ideals of what
you know, we thought the Greeks romans were.
With that being said,
probably the moment where comic books became
irr linked,
to
ancient history and mythology
was with Superman.
Mh. The first superhero that everyone knows is,
superman
which was August of 19... Which was published
in ninth... August of 19 38.
You know, there there were Pro heroes in
the pulp, like, you know, you did have,
like, you know, the phantom. You had Z.
You had conan in the Barbarian who,
had
you know, the names
and, trapping of ancient history, but, like, in
a fantasy setting. I believe
Ronnie Howard was a huge fan of Bronze
age history, but he hated, like, you know,
constantly have to tell people, oh, like, you
know, the name of this names of these
People and, like, the names of this person,
that sort of thing. So he changed it.
So he just created his entire mythology out
of his love of history, people but,
you know, not in history. Mh.
And I think it's important
to, you know, talk about superheroes,
when it comes to comics because, like, a
lot of people have internalized that. Like, we...
Like, some some people call
superheroes,
modern mythology
And I think that, you know, that doesn't
mean something and that does matter a lot.
You have,
you know, Superman who, you know, who is
he? He's... A, baby cast drift into space
and sent to a
you know, a foreign land that he doesn't
know where he has to you know, lead
people... He has to lead the people of
Earth to sort of higher ideal. Like, you
know, that's, you know, the trapping of Moses.
Which makes sense because, you know, the guys
who created them, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shu
were Jewish. Mh. So, like, you know, that,
you know, that... That... That's something that they
really internalized.
You have characters like
S.
Who...
It's a little complicated. S suzanne was not
published by Dc and he wasn't called S.
He was called Captain Marvel first.
But, you know, it's a 15 year... It's
a it's a little kid who says this
magic word becomes this big powerful hero. And,
like, the word S
is actually...
It's an ana. It... It stands for the
wisdom of Solomon,
the courage of achilles,
the lightning of Zeus, the strength of Atlas
and the speed of mercury.
So, you know, AAA child with the power
of literal gods. Mh.
He actually outs outsource Superman for a large
portion of the 19 forties,
but there was a lawsuit because,
Dc thought that he was a little too
similar to Superman and portion, Dc 1.
And,
in the 19 fifties,
there was a bit of a moral backlash
comics. So, the the publisher of S, Captain
Marvel actually went out of business.
And in the sixties,
marvel comics, publisher
became,
was, like, you know, oh, you know, we
have this character named Captain Marvel. He's named
after our company. And they just got bought
by our competition. So we have to make
sure we have the name Marvel in order
to... It it's it's a whole thing.
Yeah. Mh. But you also have,
you know, ties to actual, like.
Classical literature as well. Mh.
There's a publisher called timely comics in the
19 forties that would eventually become marvel comics,
1 of their characters is name or the
submarine mariner.
But,
which doesn't really have any ties agent history,
but he's the king of At.
So, yeah.
So there's there's that.
Pseudo history and crack archaeology has little to
no place in Na academia, Academia, but,
great place in popular culture as well.
Like, you know, if you go further in
the 19 sixties,
timely comics becomes marvel comics, Marvel comics is
helm by Stanley and Jack Kirby,
We all know who Stan Lee is. Jack
Kirby was the artist who drew most of
the characters
that we know
today.
And Jack Kirby,
you ever... Have you ever read a book
called,
cherries of the Gods,
I or heard of it and avoided it
studio as an academic. Right. Yeah.
Jack Kirby did not avoid it. He was
out... A huge fan of that.
So... Yes. If you ever
saw a movie called the eternal.
Don't worry if you haven't seen it, no
1 did,
Jack Kirby was a huge fan of like,
the ancient aliens theory and all that. And
so you have characters like...
Dr,
Fin, fast,
like, not that that they're not
you know, the the gods directly, but, you
know, you can you can see, like, little
bits of it. Like, Mh. Fast is based
off of of a Hep asbestos, all that.
But...
And I and I promise this getting to
a the to a point.
But the big hero, the the the the
1 that everyone
thinks of.
Well, I I say everyone. But, like, the
the 1 that is most associated with
ancient Greek mythology especially. Mh. Is
wonder woman.
Right.
Who, you know,
stop a random person on the street and
be like, oh, superhero here's a Creek pathology.
Oh, wonder woman
wonder woman is
weird.
Like,
so
Wonder woman was created by a man named
Willie Mo Mars,
and he was a professor of, ecology or
psychiatry. I don't remember which 1 at Harvard.
And,
he was also
I'm love to use the word radical feminist,
but he was a strong believer in the
idea that
women were inherently superior to men and that
like, the the the rise of domestic
machines to make home life easier would allow
women to assume their rightful place as sort
of, like, the the the document
part of doc dominant half of the species,
this is the 19 forties by the way,
you know, and he... He's writing this.
He's also the guy that created
the... You you know how when you have,
like, the lie detectors, they put, like, the
the heartbeat monitor on your chest.
He invented that.
So, like, you know, wonder woman and the
Lasso of truth. Yeah. That... That's where that
comes from. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. He... He was
also engaged in a poly
relationship with his wife and 1 of his
grad students.
And he was completely...
Into,
Bd,
and, like, he did a lot of studies
of, like, so
and, like, h rituals.
So, like, you know, out of this. Who
wonderful to report.
And if you read a lot of the
early stories of her.
Like, there's some really rocky stuff to get,
like, tied up a lot.
But at the same time,
you know, wonder woman her mother is
Hip apollo. Right?
You know, who... The queen of the Amazons,
and it's like,
you have that you have that saint that
that same thing we were talking about at
the very, very beginning of the question. Like,
the the idea of,
you know, you know, these higher ideals being
brought to Earth, You but using the trapping
of,
Greek and Roman history and mythology. And
you know, for some weird reason,
Dc has chose to focus more on that
these days than the really weird, you know,
the the the weird bonded stuff. Mh. But
yeah. You can see that
in in a lot of, modern.
Wonder woman's choice. Especially, like, in the 19
eighties,
an artist named George Perez,
I'm... III apologize if I get the the
the names wrong.
She really started taking
more of a ancient history,
tone in the 19 eighties and especially now,
a writer named
Kelly Sue khan, who's fantastically.
You should read all of this stuff. She
wrote a book called
Amazon historian, which gave the Amazon's a bit
of a backstory. Mh And she firmly
firmly sets it in ancient Greece.
And it's a gorgeous book, and I highly
recommend it. So, you know.
So that that that is a very long
very mean very,
concise history of sort of how
ancient pathology,
and, especially Greek roman mythology,
Mh mid into comics. Now you also have
4, but that's Norse mythology. That's that's different.
Right.
Tangible.
It's it's very interesting. Think about how... They
essentially all these things are kind of archetypes.
You have, you know, kind of, a hero's
journey. Well, like you mentioned before, the idea
of, like, you know, a Moses... It figure
the case of superman. You know, we have
this in the case of wrong
that are adrift on the river ty found
by, the Wolf Suck, you, raised by the
shepherd, and so on, that
many other examples sa Back, for example, Human
cultures seemed to like certain patterns where, you,
the hero has cast out, the of Campbell,
the heroes journey all that kind thing. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. Like, this is the... Yeah. Campbell
was, you know, doing his,
all this work.
In the sixties when all of this was
being created. Right? Like thing Yeah. They were
they were all huge fans. And, yeah, You're
right. The the idea of the baby being
cast adrift into the river and being found
is a... Is a definite architect. We... They
think advantage a lot of kids. They they
did. And historically too kind of sadly. But
but anyway, thinking about the extent to which
they're borrowing...
From. We can remember mythology. And and it
might be superficial in many cases. Like in
the case of Columbia, for example, who looks
kind of like Athena, but isn't really a
athena. She just has a nice you know,
Greek Pal on and looks good with a
spear.
And then there's these deeper borrowing wings. Like
in the case if Wonder above all. Were
they actually delve into with Mythology,
at least the extent of recovering the names,
and something about how they operated in the
context of Quest antiquity and bring that into
a story that they're not itself ancient
has constant reference to it.
Yeah. And so are there other examples besides
1 roman that people might not be as
familiar with, for example, that you can think
of, off the top of your head. Of
curiosity of this kind of biological
superficial or deeper,
for Yeah. Well, you know, like I said,
in the 19 sixties, you know, Jack Kirby
was a huge fan of the ancient aliens
theory. Right. And you have...
You have the eternal. So, like, You know,
they... Their... The gods come to Earth.
You know, Athena Fast. I I should've have
talk todd that talk talk talk talked about
that then. But you also have,
you you also have you know, a lot
more obvious characters. So, like,
You have the the big 2 comic book
publishers in American media.
And
you you have you have Dc, you have
Marvel, And they have... They've they've taken very
different approaches. Like, Dc
is a more direct translation. So, like, you
know, you have, like, you know, you know,
the the the gods exist and they are
above us.
And then you have, marvel comics as well.
Stanley very famously said that,
the Marvel universe is the universe you can
see outside your window, but more so.
So, like, it's it's a lot more...
I wanna
realistic. Which I'm gonna use heavy quotes there.
Right. Because
you know, I mean, you know, the fantastic
4 and, like, you know,
weird science and
mh. All that all that stuff is on
full display.
But at the same time, like, Marvel adopted
a policy of like, all
all of the methodologies of the world, all
of the
you know, the histories of the world, they're
all real. They they all, like,
you know, they they all exist in they're
all valid. So, you know, you have...
You know, you you have the artists sort
of imposing their thoughts onto it, but you
also have, you know, more direct translations as
well there.
Her
is a
character who shows up in the, in marvel
comics.
He's not, you know,
thrust to the forefront, but he exists.
I I wanna say,
I can't remember off the top of my
head, but I believe he was... He became
prevalent in like, the seventies when
what
when they were doing the,
pulp s
movies from, like, the seventies, like, you know,
Hercules fights the mold people or something. That.
Yeah.
So, like,
you know, Marvel being the
shameless
you know,
copier of pop culture, and and they were.
You know, they were, like, hey. We want
that in a comics. So Mh, Her eric
shows up.
And they also did, like, you, the exploitation
and the the kung fu films of the
Mh. Sixties and seventies,
they show up as well. So, like,
it... It's very much a case of, like,
popular culture sort of informing itself and copying
from itself and then, you know,
cycling through as well. So
You know,
the those are some of the more,
the more obscure references.
Mh. But, you know, they still exist. And
they're... They're all very interested. And like, you
you have these, you know, artists and these
creators,
you know, taking
not only the established mythology, but the, the
established thing
continuity of the books. Mh. Like, you know,
we're we're we're at a point where we
have,
enough history,
and continuity in the comics for the, creators
to, you know, borrow from that, and, you
know, Mh bring their own influences. So, you
know, it's it's it's it's
It's a soup.
And You have all these, you know, all
these people adding all these cool stuff. So,
you know, That's what sense. Oh, soup is
delicious. So, you know that here's that. You
know, it it's funny. We were talking just
now, I was thinking about Roman history. And,
when the romans began writing their history, it
was rather late in the game. Well after
they had their an empire. And many centuries
after the Greeks riding their own history in
their own myths down. As their own step
into this world it has a very rich
those literary tradition. And they borrow pretty shameless
from every aspect of it. And.
And you know, they have, like, 4 different
from foundation myths. Gonna borrowed from different people
they have different variants the foundation myth, which
then refer to again and again, you know,
in different ways. Even their early history is
most as cobb together from well wish thinking,
and again, kind of it's myth of their
own origins. And so, I guess, every people
is guilty of this to some degree, but
kinda I think almost in the comic books
style of,
and
alternate universes that can kind of coexist.
If you want to create a certain kind
of soup
and you mentioned before how how the creators
a superman, or borrowing both from, you know,
the step bible stories as well as... Kind
of, you know, greek mythology, other influences.
So besides Gregor roman Myth, what other cultures
have been in mined most heavily kind
by creators of comics in the last, say,
50, 60 years.
What some of the biggest influences are
norse mythology, Like, right off the top of
the head.
You know, Marvel has, thor,
which is not exactly a 1 to 1
translation of, like, the the Ed and the
prose edd. Mh. But
eventually,
Marvel created their own cosmology with, like, As
and the Gods and all that.
And more recently, there's been a
effort to sort of
accommodate some other stuff as well.
There's a publisher called graphic India.
They did a... The this is this is
about a decade ago.
They did a graphic adaptation of of Mah.
And, I'm butchering the name. I apologize.
Mh.
But, you know, bringing that into comics. And,
you know, if you if you move away
from sort of Western,
mythology as well, then you go into, like,
you know, Manga and Japan, which is absolutely
huge.
But, yeah. You have, like, the adaptations of
you know, journey to the West. If you're
a fan of Dragon ball z, you know...
You know journey to the West.
But,
Tori made it,
you know, gave it a Sci f twist
as well. So Mh. Yeah. You know, a
lot of Norse mythology,
a lot of, Japanese
and a lot of East Asian work and,
you know, now we're moving into sort of,
like,
you know, Indian mythology and some African
as well. So, you know, the... It's,
you know,
a global tableau for a global world.
Mh. And that the, you know, this, you
know,
that's what's happening. So
Well, no that. That's very interesting. I I
wonder if in many ways, the Grease Romans,
the heroes especially, at the mythology, we're just
low hanging fruit. It was what everybody knew.
And so it's feel familiar to the audiences
and to the writers, they could mine from
it extensively, and there was just a lot
to borrow from.
Absolutely. And I mean, like, you know, her...
These t and
like, they they they were basically superheroes to
begin with.
Like, you know, like, ends, you know,
what what is the superhero? Well, you know,
that that's a question of some debate. But,
like, you know, the the idea of, like,
the
you know, the the problems
that people face, you know, the, you know,
you know, the the the the issues of
the day and, like, you know, it's it's
it's a
you know, the, you what what the hero
does sort of is, you know, the they,
you know, they they they confront these problems,
and they deal with them in, you know,
this...
Overblown dramatic way. And as a result, the...
You know, there... There's a story. There's there's
a,
moral and there's, like, information in imparted on
that.
Like,
the example I like, to I'd like to
use in the example I hear of is,
like, you know, when Her was fighting, like,
the hydra. Like, it's it's sort of a
a metaphor for
the Greeks trying to, you know, control, like,
rivers and water sources.
And, like, you know, what happened... You know,
what's... What... What's he doing? Like, you know,
he cuts off 1 head, he blocks you
know, you know, you block 1 river, like,
you create 2 more. Mh. Sort of, you
know, that sort of thing.
So, you know, how you know, how do
how do you deal with,
you know, how do you deal with the
issues of the day? And, like, you know,
you see that with, like, the first appearance
of superman, Who is an absolute?
Prick
in his first appearance. Like, he is... He
is not a nice person.
Like, he
like, within the span of a few pages,
he stops a
he stops the execution of a wrongfully convicted
man,
he
brutally
assaults
a person who a wife beater,
and
my my personal favorite, he goes to... Like,
he he
runs over to Washington Dc
Grabs a corrupt politician by the scrub of
the neck and basically holds him out over
the window until the man agrees to start
doing his job.
Dead serious. Like... Yeah. No. The I... Yeah.
There's also a moment... There's also a moment
in a later issue where he
demolish is,
you know, poorly subsidize,
you know, he he demolish his,
project housing block.
In order to force the government to build
better housing, for The poor needs. So, like,
you know,
that... That's also a thing.
So, you know, the, you know, the... For
they they are... They they truly do stand
for, you know, truth and justice. So Mh.
Like, you know, you have that as well
with the the heroes. So you're right. It's
a it's a very
reaching very low hanging fruit for people to,
crib from.
Yeah know. 1 thing before we go on
as we were talking here, I was thinking
that in many ways, Alexander the great,
is a superhero. As he's portrayed later on
his geography.
Blue of course, you know, has these actual
accomplishments, which are incredible, You know, before he's
32 conquering the known world.
But later on, there are more and more
sensational versions of his history. The alexander Romance
it's called. We're, like fights giant scorpions,
you know, he goes off and Mar exotic.
Queens, and even has become this superhuman figure
of in the middle Asia even in many
different cultures from
you know, from the far east, you know,
rather the Middle East all the way through
Western Europe.
And say is a sense So... Yeah. I
think I think there's a moment where, like,
in the...
Corona or and I radiant literature where he
finds Yeah. In both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah And and all these different things. And
he just kinda of shows up, you, scanned
or the 2 horns, like, from therapist. And
you he... He is a superhero, basically.
Okay. Know these... And these writers in many
cases do know these stories mythology. And I'm
importing them onto this mortal mortal figures history.
So there's nothing new in many ways. This
is low hanging fruit for them and they've
applied it to this historical figure.
Mh. But to move,
from mythology,
shi via history in this case.
What are some ways that ko have addressed
the ancient world outside of mythology? There's the
history of classical world.
Are are are the aspects of it?
Alright. So... Yeah.
Every... So...
What... So it wasn't just the mythology that
we like to crib from. It was the
ideals or the perceived ideal.
You know, going back again, to Columbia, like,
you know, Mh. The the the reason why,
you know, she assumes the trapping of
you know, the Greeks is because, you know,
we we used,
you know, you, you know, we you have,
you know, American and, British,
politics
has its basis in Greek Roman law.
And
more an in a more modern sense,
we've
started...
We, like, a lot of comic creators started,
borrowing from
you know, the the perceived,
you know, they perceived ideals of the Greeks
themselves.
And this is a very,
very, sort of roundabout lead up to
the... What is probably the the the big
1 in the room.
If you're a fan of agent history,
you've probably at some point in your life,
had to deal with people who are a
little... Too obsessed with the movie 300. Mh
Yes.
That's the big 1 that, I like, I
like to talk about.
But... Yeah, The the the movie 300 is
based off of a comic book by a
guy named Frank Miller to
Frank Miller is 1 of those names and
comics that, like, you know,
the the lay man doesn't necessarily know, but,
like, fans.
No.
If you don't know who Frank miller is,
He's the reason you know who Dared devil
is, and he's also the reason why Superman
and Batman keep fighting each other.
They used to be really good friends all
the time. But then,
Miller created the dark knight rises in 19
86,
and it's... You know... They've been front enemies
ever since.
But,
Miller
created 300,
he actually... Borrowed from the 19 sixties movie.
A lot of people don't remember that, remember
that, but there was, you know, the the
movie,
you know, the 300 Spartan.
In like, the sixties.
So that's... That's what Miller was following from.
So, like, you have
in I mean, I don't I don't need
to talk about 300 and what and, you
know, the the stuff it talks about. It...
It's it's problematic, but at the same time,
it's like, you know, know, the the, you
know, the the Greeks did believe in their
inherent superiority over everyone else for a better
or for worse. You
and so, you know, that's that's on display
and, like,
And, you know, that... That's, you know, what...
That's 1 of the big things. It's it's
it's not just
the stories. It's the culture that came from
those stories as well.
You'll be pleased to know
that there is actually a book series
that was a little more recent.
That was published by group called image comics.
It's called 3,
and it's actually sort of a
answer to,
300. It's by a guy named Karen Gill,
who is,
you know, he
he he's he's a very well established writer.
He's done a lot of, stuff with Marvel
Dc
and mythology as well.
But it's about
a group of, He
from sparta of slaves,
who, you know,
realized, hey, the, you know, the system kinda
sucks. And so they've they rebel against
the spartan. And it it doesn't end well
for them, but, like, it it talk... It
goes into a lot more detail about, like,
you know, Mh Oh, this is what ancient
Sparta was actually like. As opposed to this
hyper masculine hyper ideal version. Right
But, yeah.
You know, that... That's it's
as
you know, it it it's it's the culture
that's
the Greeks left behind as well, for better
or for worse.
So, you know, that that's it... That's the
other stuff we've done. So...
Yeah. That's nice way to talk about it.
That there's kind of both polls represented both
for 300 as... The somewhat problematic ideal utilization
of certain aspects of the Greek world.
And this attempt to really get at the
often pretty brutal reality of that world. In
these, you know, 303.
Yeah, when I saw 300 for the first
time, you, I was 20 years old, When
it came out, you know, that's dating myself,
I guess, pretty accurately. I saw an imac
and came out, like, that was the best
thing Ever seen in my life. Like, I
know even then it it was, you know,
there were things that were problematic about it.
Various orient, but, like, At the same time,
I just had a lot of fun with
that movie. And then we are obviously.
And it was a huge amount of fun.
They they had Bridal Cavalry. Come on.
But but then, right, Yeah. Yeah, was like,
kinda got became, you know, older and more
of a historian. Yeah. It became, you know,
somewhat less fun to watch it.
But Obviously they show his poles of enjoyment
and his historical was responsibility in entertainment about
ancient history. And...
So then it sound like an.
See the did did you see the sequel?
I I did not. I I heard interesting
things about the sequel. Yeah Yeah. It's...
Like, it literally starts off with the line.
Like, like, it's it it's actually set...
It...
It's it's it it's set before,
the battle of thermo Apply. It it starts
with the battle of Marathon. And then it
runs like... Concurrently as well. It's about, optimistic
and it culminate the battle of Salami. Yeah.
And
like, it opens with the line
you know, darius annoyed by the notions of
pre democracy in va. It's like, that's not
what happened. That's not what I all. Mh.
But it's actually a lot more
nuance
then the original, 300, like,
mystic actually
talks about, like, how he thinks, like, you
know, addis and the 300 going off die
is stupid,
but it's useful.
So... And and, like, they also have a
evergreen,
as Art, she's oh yes.
Oh my god. She just, like,
she she owns the movie in, like, in
the most ex... Stream and Hilarious kind of
way, and it's really... Like, she's she's great.
But, yeah. No. Like, it's it's it... It...
It's a sequel that sort of common
on its source material in a very interesting
way. Mh. It was also based off of
another graphic novel that, Frank Miller did, but
it's not as popular and not as famous.
They're they're they also
come off. There they also
creates this fiction that Z sees was
tricked.
Into invading Greece and that he's actually sort
of
you know, he... He... He's he's not the
God king he thinks he is. But, like,
it it's mh
it's it's actually pretty good. And it it's
it's interesting. And I would recommend giving you
the shot.
Oh, alright
some Saturday I who knows. Yeah. But yeah
Oh, Nuance is good. Right? And in Comics
and and in other media, and it's basically
be the kind of approach it there at
least.
How about a Roman history of curiosity? Are
you aware of many treatments
in comics of Roman history?
Yeah. Well, okay. Okay. So
So when we're... You know, we've been talking
for this
podcast mostly about,
American
comics and American comic book culture. Alright. There
is
an entire world,
of,
comics and fiction out there,
that isn't
here. Mh. The the 2 other big ones
are, you know, Japan,
Manga,
that that that's that... That's pretty big. There's
also, the Franco Belgian comic book see. Oh,
yes. And, you know, the stuff that's going
on in Europe.
And, again, like, you know, fans of comics
and fans of ancient history are probably, like,
you know, champion at bit. Yes. I'm gonna
talk about Asterisk malcolm. Not. There's asterisk ob,
which is a...
It it it's a French comic series that
was...
It's first published in the 19 sixties,
I am gonna butcher the names of the
creators.
I,
rick...
Renee,
Yesterday or...
III don't know how to... I, my french
is terrible.
And, Alberto, There's no. Mh. Are the the
people that created it. And
you know, it it it... It's it's very
French but,
it has...
It's it's very much set in ancient rome.
It's about
a... Like, the last
the last hold out, of, gaul culture against
the Romans.
And, like, the only reason why this village
is able to hold out is because the
village Dr knows how to brew this potion
that gives the, user,
super strength.
And so it's the various adventures of the
you know, the village warrior Asterisk,
and his, good friend Ob as they go
on, you know, adventures all across the world.
Mh
Julie Caesar's there,
you know, B is there.
There's,
story where they go off to ancient India,
Cl shows there. 1 what 1 of my
favorites is asterisk in Cl.
They make so many jokes about her nose.
Yes.
Yeah.
The the, that's there.
So, like, that's the big 1.
It's it's 1 of the best selling comic
books of all time.
So, like, you know, it... Yeah. And so
that... That that's... You know, it it takes,
like, actual, like, history and, like, adds a
historical twist to it. There's another story...
I think Ob and company where,
a character who is very clearly based off
of jacques S rock.
From French politics shows up, and he... Like,
it... He's he's basically just, like, you know,
it's, like, capitalism, but, like,
it's a
version of capitalism. It's Mh. It's it's great.
I love it.
And you would think that it would just
be limited... That that ancient role would be
limited to, like, you know,
Europe and, America. But here's the thing.
There is
a manga, and I'm dead series. It was
published in 2008. It's called aroma thurman.
It's written by,
a, woman named Maria Mi, and it it
is... At have you heard of it?
I I've heard of this Tv show.
But say that. Yes. It it was a
comic.
And, it was also a live action movie,
and it's an on netflix, I think. If
if you can... Yeah I think you can
still see it. No. Mh. But, yeah, It...
The idea is is there is a,
architect in ancient Rome.
Who is tasked by
the emperor Had to build the magnificent bath
house
and he's he's absolutely
suffering for ideas, and he gets sucked into
a portal,
to modern day Japan.
Where he sees,
like, you know, modern Japanese bath houses and
then he goes back and he implements these
ideas, and it is
It is so weird, but it's so
interesting and it's, like, III
love it.
Like, it is is 1 of those wildly
and crazy ideas that... Mh.
You know, it it shouldn't work yet somehow
it does.
And it was popular enough to get a
live action movie and an anime. So, you
know? Yeah. It it's... It really did seem
to resume.
Yeah. In the anime that that's that
what
Roman or my Nova or whatever it was.
Yeah. Some connection of those words.
And I I watched a couple episodes. It's
at my video editors
recommendation. And I looked at the end, they
had that the creator would come on. It
was like a informative documentary bit about Japanese.
You know, Like, and here's how it works
in Japan. Like, it was very kind of
a fundamental addition to, yeah. It was kind
of this like, odd ball about combination of
things. But,
but anyway, so, obviously, a huge variety of
adaptations, and
you know, 4 rays, I guess, into Roman
history from different cultures.
Absolutely. So for for a final question,
what do you think the future holds
for comics based in or around ancient history?
Yeah. So
I think what's... I think what's happening now
is
you know, we we we had sort of,
like, you know, the the the broad, you
know, big ideas, the broad, you know, you
know, the
the gods have been brought in. The,
But I think... And and, like, we've also
had, like you know, the broad strokes of,
like, the history and the culture being brought
in as well. And I think... What's happening
now is we have an entire generation of
creators who grew up with this.
You know,
the the the classics may have been sn
a hundred and 50 years ago, but they're
are a lot less sn now. Mh. And
they're are, you know,
there there's this...
Sense of,
popular enjoyment as well. Like here. This this
this isn't for
you know,
rich college case. This is for
everyone. And there's enough of it that's common
knowledge where people can be like, oh, like,
you know,
this exists, But, like, you know, let's let's
give it a twist and, you know, let's
let's make it, you know, you know,
let's let's make it a adapt to our
ideals.
1 of the big...
1 of the big,
stories that's, been
published in recent years is
there there there's a,
comic strip called Laura Olympus,
It got published on the line became insanely
popular,
and now it's being brought to print.
What that is, it's a
modern re telling of,
Per stephanie in Hades.
Mh.
But
like, there's this movement... Like, there's this movement
where, like, people are, like, you know, really
sort of examining the relationship and, like,
you know,
it's not for me to comment on, you
know, how appropriate
that event was.
But there are people who are, like, you
know, well, what if we made it so
that Per stephanie and Hades don't
hate each other. Like, what if what are
what if it was actually a loving and
caring relationship. You know, let let's let's explore
that.
So,
you know, the the idea of taking these...
Trapping and taking these ideas and taking these
themes and sort of making it that making
it our own. Right you know, putting our
own spin on it, like, you know, like
the Romans did with the Greeks, you know,
like, you know, like, our
you know, great great grandparents did with you
know,
with
you know, the law and with you know,
the culture and oh,
law and the culture. And, you know, Mh.
What we're doing with our personal
feelings and ideas. And also,
if you'll permit me to toot my own
horn, going back to my hook. But, of
course. Available on Kickstarter now, system.
The reason why I wrote it is because,
you know, I... As someone who grew up
in this. And as someone who enjoys studying
it,
even though my Latin and Greek are terrible.
1 of the things I've noticed is that
the way we view,
greet... Ancient greece in rome in popular culture
is very
narrow.
Whenever we have a movie or whenever we
have a Tv show, it's always the same
people, the same themes, the same ideas on
power and control,
and that's great.
That's awesome,
but it's like come on, guys. There's was
there there was more to this than, you
know, the more to this than Julius a
Caesar.
So, you know, a big reason why I
wrote this comment and a big reason why...
Come I love the toll stone Youtube Youtube
channel is because
it takes a step back and it looks
at, like, you know, oh, let's look at
like, the Mundane small stuff. You know, what
was what was it like to go to
the dentist? You know,
yeah, how do the romans take care of
their trash?
You know, that... You know, how did a
Roman feast work? I, how, you know, how
did everyday life work as well.
So
there there's there's...
So so basically information, what I'm saying is
that we we are were...
The the way we... Our our over,
our relationship with the classics is starting to
change.
And we're making it
our own and we're bringing it into the
model and we're we're we're sort of using
it. To communicate
our thoughts and our ideals of how
things are and, you know, how we think
the world should be
So... And, you know, that's starting to show
up in comics as well.
Oh, I think that's great to be honest.
I think that for tradition to survive, it
has to be a living 1.
And that only works if people do try
to... This creative translation of a story into
a new civilization, a new era, a new,
frame of mind. I, yeah. New a new
epoch. Yeah. A new. Yes. Yeah. And I
wish you all of best of luck to
it.
Everyone listening again, this has been Matthew Blair,
a creator of Roman romano Magic k, which
has been put Told Stone, I don't which
to twitch I wish all the best. So
And, Matthew, thank you so much for joining
us today. Oh, thank you for having me.
But, of course, and everyone listening. Thanks for
tuning in.