1 00:00:00,199 --> 00:00:01,878 Welcome to the To podcast. 2 00:00:02,437 --> 00:00:03,876 I'm Garrett Ryan, and My I guess today 3 00:00:03,876 --> 00:00:05,255 is Doctor. Fed Nic. 4 00:00:05,874 --> 00:00:06,753 This as professor and, 5 00:00:07,552 --> 00:00:09,470 At Of Naples Fed the second. 6 00:00:10,124 --> 00:00:11,642 Dr Nikola Lard. Thanks for joining us. 7 00:00:12,681 --> 00:00:14,599 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here 8 00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:16,436 with your state. Oh, likewise. 9 00:00:18,049 --> 00:00:20,926 Doctor Works on the famous her palladium scrolls, 10 00:00:21,405 --> 00:00:23,961 eva of highly carbon by disruption of In 11 00:00:23,961 --> 00:00:25,080 79 Ad d. 12 00:00:25,890 --> 00:00:27,634 Since last year she been involved with the 13 00:00:27,713 --> 00:00:30,725 V challenge. A project that's using machine learning 14 00:00:30,725 --> 00:00:32,548 to virtually un ramp and read the scrolls. 15 00:00:33,438 --> 00:00:35,933 We'll, discuss the very exciting results of the 16 00:00:35,992 --> 00:00:36,710 challenge shortly. 17 00:00:37,269 --> 00:00:39,424 But first, a bit of background. Frame we're 18 00:00:39,424 --> 00:00:40,621 not familiar with the scrolls. 19 00:00:41,671 --> 00:00:43,819 Could you tell us a bit about, how 20 00:00:43,819 --> 00:00:46,285 and where the her scrolls were discovered. 21 00:00:48,209 --> 00:00:51,338 So the claims scrolls were found in seaside 22 00:00:51,554 --> 00:00:54,502 Villa, Luxurious villa in the bay of Naples 23 00:00:54,502 --> 00:00:54,820 in, 24 00:00:55,457 --> 00:00:56,754 the ancient city where. 25 00:00:57,861 --> 00:00:58,100 And, 26 00:00:58,975 --> 00:01:02,577 actually, the excavation were not systematic archaeological 27 00:01:02,952 --> 00:01:05,100 excavation as the ones we have today. We 28 00:01:05,100 --> 00:01:07,507 can see today. It was was more like 29 00:01:07,507 --> 00:01:10,381 a recovery of ancient marble, 30 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:14,213 ancient statues and findings from the ground. The 31 00:01:14,213 --> 00:01:15,911 things were coming from wells 32 00:01:16,461 --> 00:01:18,366 pertaining to farm workers, 33 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,065 people leading in the ancient in the in 34 00:01:21,065 --> 00:01:23,844 the modern city of Regina. So the ancient 35 00:01:23,844 --> 00:01:24,558 city claim. 36 00:01:25,526 --> 00:01:27,828 So it was more like, an exploration, And 37 00:01:27,828 --> 00:01:30,448 the the Vip pap pd, in particular was 38 00:01:30,448 --> 00:01:32,592 found for first time in 17 50. 39 00:01:33,004 --> 00:01:35,730 And the first pap expiry were far found 40 00:01:35,787 --> 00:01:38,173 in 10/19/1752. 41 00:01:39,127 --> 00:01:40,877 It is also a very interesting to... 42 00:01:41,929 --> 00:01:45,045 Think about where precisely in the villa this 43 00:01:45,045 --> 00:01:47,922 growth were found because the discoveries... So the 44 00:01:47,922 --> 00:01:49,540 findings, the findings 45 00:01:50,489 --> 00:01:53,270 happened in different places in Villa. Some of 46 00:01:53,270 --> 00:01:55,518 the pap papaya were found in the 47 00:01:55,891 --> 00:01:56,868 reception rooms 48 00:01:57,337 --> 00:01:59,323 of the the Venus so between the 2 49 00:01:59,323 --> 00:02:01,731 pairs styles. So in this room 50 00:02:02,979 --> 00:02:05,522 lead by the light coming from the 2 51 00:02:05,522 --> 00:02:08,397 paris styles, but most of those scrolls, most 52 00:02:08,397 --> 00:02:09,192 of the library, 53 00:02:09,748 --> 00:02:13,506 was actually found in a very small room 54 00:02:13,641 --> 00:02:15,722 internal room styles in the Villa, which was 55 00:02:15,722 --> 00:02:17,653 probably, like a storage room 56 00:02:18,503 --> 00:02:20,887 where all the books were kept, and it's 57 00:02:20,887 --> 00:02:23,208 also interesting that some of the pap pie, 58 00:02:23,367 --> 00:02:25,435 some of the scrolls were found in boxes, 59 00:02:26,151 --> 00:02:28,958 because this can mean that there was a 60 00:02:29,349 --> 00:02:30,089 a very 61 00:02:31,666 --> 00:02:32,166 living 62 00:02:32,785 --> 00:02:34,004 activity, and 63 00:02:34,623 --> 00:02:36,641 so the there was a dynamic 64 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:39,350 situation in in the Villa where the pap 65 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:41,664 papaya were moved from 1 place to another. 66 00:02:41,824 --> 00:02:43,260 We have to think that it was not 67 00:02:43,260 --> 00:02:46,229 very comfortable to read this scrolls in a 68 00:02:46,229 --> 00:02:46,868 small room, 69 00:02:47,906 --> 00:02:49,025 which was not 70 00:02:49,424 --> 00:02:51,682 where the light was not coming from 71 00:02:52,221 --> 00:02:55,051 from the... External parts of the Villa. So, 72 00:02:55,429 --> 00:02:57,424 it is interesting to think that there were 73 00:02:57,424 --> 00:03:00,399 people moving these scrolls from the most internal 74 00:03:00,458 --> 00:03:02,784 rooms of the library to the res reception 75 00:03:02,784 --> 00:03:05,012 room to be able to read them. And 76 00:03:05,012 --> 00:03:07,875 so probably the boxes were used for that. 77 00:03:09,965 --> 00:03:12,044 Okay. Yeah. Very interesting. I know that the 78 00:03:12,044 --> 00:03:14,924 the villa has only been partially even today, 79 00:03:15,245 --> 00:03:16,856 and we'll talk more about possibilities is what 80 00:03:16,856 --> 00:03:19,404 might lie within the still buried segments later. 81 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,430 So to date, how many controls have been 82 00:03:22,430 --> 00:03:24,715 opened and how many remain unopened? The 83 00:03:25,786 --> 00:03:28,168 Yeah. This is a difficult question. Actually, 84 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,058 because we don't have a precise number of 85 00:03:32,058 --> 00:03:32,375 straws. 86 00:03:33,028 --> 00:03:35,020 Housed in the library of the Villa pd. 87 00:03:35,738 --> 00:03:37,513 This is caused... This is due to 88 00:03:38,129 --> 00:03:39,963 fragmentation of the scrolls because many of the 89 00:03:39,963 --> 00:03:40,814 scrolls broke up 90 00:03:41,332 --> 00:03:43,958 during the eruption or even later when they 91 00:03:43,958 --> 00:03:45,869 were discovered or during the, 92 00:03:46,665 --> 00:03:48,097 attempt to open them. 93 00:03:49,371 --> 00:03:51,958 We can say that D collection 94 00:03:52,337 --> 00:03:54,995 includes more than 1800 95 00:03:55,054 --> 00:03:58,865 inventory numbers, which doesn't mean 08/01/1800 96 00:03:59,142 --> 00:04:01,525 event scrolls in the whole collection. 97 00:04:02,239 --> 00:04:02,716 Probably, 98 00:04:03,272 --> 00:04:06,789 originally, the library house somewhere between 99 00:04:07,419 --> 00:04:09,759 801000 100 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:11,979 cro, 1 1000 books, 101 00:04:13,659 --> 00:04:14,159 and 102 00:04:14,474 --> 00:04:16,551 if we if we look at the inventory 103 00:04:16,551 --> 00:04:19,688 numbers, right now, over 600 104 00:04:20,466 --> 00:04:21,319 referred to 105 00:04:21,917 --> 00:04:25,522 unopened material, and more than 100 referred to 106 00:04:25,739 --> 00:04:27,172 material for which in, 107 00:04:27,649 --> 00:04:29,774 an opening was attempted, but then 108 00:04:30,927 --> 00:04:32,063 interrupted because 109 00:04:32,517 --> 00:04:35,140 situation was probably too difficult, and the results 110 00:04:35,140 --> 00:04:37,366 were not particularly promising, 111 00:04:38,019 --> 00:04:39,535 So we still have a lot of material. 112 00:04:39,774 --> 00:04:40,333 We have this, 113 00:04:41,051 --> 00:04:41,551 big 114 00:04:41,928 --> 00:04:42,886 wooden drawers, 115 00:04:43,684 --> 00:04:45,120 very fascinating actually. 116 00:04:45,692 --> 00:04:48,074 In the Op opportunity At the national library 117 00:04:48,074 --> 00:04:48,812 of naples 118 00:04:49,423 --> 00:04:52,678 where this unopened material is stored. And you 119 00:04:52,678 --> 00:04:54,448 can see from... So 120 00:04:54,918 --> 00:04:55,418 both 121 00:04:55,873 --> 00:04:59,320 tires pros and portions of scrolls, like fragments 122 00:04:59,696 --> 00:05:02,961 that are completely unopened and never touched. 123 00:05:04,652 --> 00:05:05,529 And it's fascinating. 124 00:05:06,248 --> 00:05:07,445 As you mentioned, if fact that some these 125 00:05:07,445 --> 00:05:09,680 scrolls are partially opened and many fell apart 126 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,595 during the eruption or afterward upon handling. 127 00:05:12,088 --> 00:05:14,794 Other they're extremely delicate objects. So what are 128 00:05:14,794 --> 00:05:16,864 some of the challenges of handling or working 129 00:05:16,864 --> 00:05:17,342 with 130 00:05:17,899 --> 00:05:19,491 such fragile material. 131 00:05:21,105 --> 00:05:22,485 Yeah. So third 132 00:05:22,865 --> 00:05:25,904 this actually is a strange situation out of 133 00:05:25,904 --> 00:05:28,717 the canadian pap proprietary particular condition because they 134 00:05:28,717 --> 00:05:31,187 are a carbon. They're very fragile, but at 135 00:05:31,187 --> 00:05:34,135 the same time, they look like petrified object. 136 00:05:34,294 --> 00:05:37,322 They look like very compact almost petrified object. 137 00:05:37,561 --> 00:05:38,014 So 138 00:05:38,692 --> 00:05:41,343 on 1 side, they are incredibly 139 00:05:41,879 --> 00:05:43,711 fragile. On the other side, they are, 140 00:05:44,508 --> 00:05:45,008 incredibly, 141 00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:49,702 compact and difficult to to open difficult to 142 00:05:49,702 --> 00:05:51,637 access. As far as the 143 00:05:52,013 --> 00:05:53,622 open for Bi, are concerned, 144 00:05:54,259 --> 00:05:56,888 so Man handling them can be, of course, 145 00:05:57,764 --> 00:05:59,357 very dangerous and, 146 00:05:59,995 --> 00:06:02,329 we people have so did these callers who 147 00:06:02,329 --> 00:06:04,970 study, but priority have to be very careful 148 00:06:04,970 --> 00:06:06,409 about that because we cannot, 149 00:06:07,544 --> 00:06:09,462 keep the pap between 2, 150 00:06:10,341 --> 00:06:13,638 glass pieces as it happens for Pap found 151 00:06:13,937 --> 00:06:14,337 elsewhere, 152 00:06:14,976 --> 00:06:16,095 not carbon pap, 153 00:06:16,748 --> 00:06:18,184 So when you look at the pap virus 154 00:06:18,184 --> 00:06:19,163 under the microscope, 155 00:06:19,620 --> 00:06:22,730 you don't have anything protecting it. Yeah. There's 156 00:06:22,730 --> 00:06:24,884 nothing on top of the virus. So you're 157 00:06:24,884 --> 00:06:28,730 handling the of wooden board to to which 158 00:06:28,730 --> 00:06:31,524 the pap virus glued and you're handling directly 159 00:06:31,524 --> 00:06:32,423 under the microscope. 160 00:06:32,961 --> 00:06:35,137 So, of course, there, it it is dangerous 161 00:06:35,276 --> 00:06:35,776 to 162 00:06:36,089 --> 00:06:36,724 handle them, 163 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:41,013 and also, there are, other challenges when you 164 00:06:41,013 --> 00:06:43,237 have to deal with this pap. So on 165 00:06:43,237 --> 00:06:43,872 1 side, 166 00:06:44,601 --> 00:06:46,901 and so on top of their Gb and 167 00:06:46,901 --> 00:06:48,884 carbon capitalization and everything else, 168 00:06:49,597 --> 00:06:50,970 you have the difficulty 169 00:06:51,342 --> 00:06:54,060 in reading the a fiery because of the 170 00:06:54,060 --> 00:06:56,129 black ink on the black surface. 171 00:06:56,527 --> 00:06:58,141 So it is... It can be 172 00:06:58,835 --> 00:06:59,971 particularly challenging 173 00:07:00,347 --> 00:07:03,328 to decipher attacks because you cannot, 174 00:07:03,942 --> 00:07:05,851 very clearly in some situation, 175 00:07:06,567 --> 00:07:08,737 distinguish the surface of the virus 176 00:07:09,208 --> 00:07:11,918 from the, ink that you are interested in. 177 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:14,229 And then there is a problem of fragmentation, 178 00:07:14,389 --> 00:07:16,620 of course, because as I said before, many 179 00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:18,705 of the girls were fragmented, and so they 180 00:07:18,705 --> 00:07:20,935 were... They broke up in several pieces. And 181 00:07:20,935 --> 00:07:21,094 so, 182 00:07:22,129 --> 00:07:24,039 most of our work today at the work 183 00:07:24,039 --> 00:07:27,182 with the pathologist working on open Pap, 184 00:07:27,718 --> 00:07:30,267 is to try to reconstruct the holes cro, 185 00:07:30,585 --> 00:07:33,214 putting all the fragments back together to their 186 00:07:33,214 --> 00:07:36,040 original position. And then there is another problem 187 00:07:36,337 --> 00:07:39,127 that is closely connected to 188 00:07:39,526 --> 00:07:39,765 the, 189 00:07:40,961 --> 00:07:42,577 the condition, the compact 190 00:07:43,285 --> 00:07:45,349 condition of this growth, which is the so 191 00:07:45,349 --> 00:07:47,729 haul strat we refer to that with this 192 00:07:47,729 --> 00:07:47,967 term, 193 00:07:48,682 --> 00:07:49,896 which means that there are, 194 00:07:50,348 --> 00:07:51,245 very often 195 00:07:52,031 --> 00:07:54,598 overlapping layers of virus. So the 196 00:07:54,972 --> 00:07:58,231 detachment of single individual layers were was not 197 00:07:58,231 --> 00:07:58,731 always 198 00:07:59,599 --> 00:08:01,912 attained. It was very difficult actually to attain. 199 00:08:02,151 --> 00:08:03,507 So, on the contrary, 200 00:08:04,464 --> 00:08:07,734 it happened very often that several layers remained 201 00:08:07,734 --> 00:08:10,483 the attached 1 to another And so this 202 00:08:10,622 --> 00:08:13,516 results in a situation where you cannot, 203 00:08:13,974 --> 00:08:17,029 read a continuous text. But your taxes continuously 204 00:08:17,247 --> 00:08:17,907 is constantly... 205 00:08:19,254 --> 00:08:23,094 Interrupted by other fragments coming from under other 206 00:08:23,230 --> 00:08:23,866 layers. So, 207 00:08:24,581 --> 00:08:26,569 there is a need of reconstruction where you 208 00:08:26,569 --> 00:08:28,731 have to put this fragments back to their 209 00:08:28,731 --> 00:08:29,447 original position. 210 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,708 Yes. It sounds like a a monumental task. 211 00:08:34,219 --> 00:08:35,730 At at Michigan where I did my my 212 00:08:35,810 --> 00:08:38,220 Phd. We had P from Car in Egypt, 213 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:40,220 which, of course, our standard Pap papaya, you 214 00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:41,179 know, they're not carbon. 215 00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:42,779 But even though if there was a big 216 00:08:42,779 --> 00:08:44,059 box we had in the in the the 217 00:08:44,059 --> 00:08:45,992 room, those full of fragments about the size 218 00:08:45,992 --> 00:08:47,668 of a finger nail, and we would try 219 00:08:47,668 --> 00:08:49,664 to be reconstruct them from those. And of 220 00:08:49,664 --> 00:08:51,979 course, when they're carbon and add adhering together, 221 00:08:52,139 --> 00:08:53,896 it's whole levels of difficulty more. 222 00:08:54,789 --> 00:08:56,227 Professor Gen, who I I worked with at 223 00:08:56,387 --> 00:08:57,745 Michigan a couple times. Just tell me about 224 00:08:57,745 --> 00:08:58,384 this, and 225 00:08:59,023 --> 00:08:59,582 it sounded. 226 00:09:00,381 --> 00:09:00,940 As I said, 227 00:09:01,992 --> 00:09:03,583 quite an effort. So a kudos to you 228 00:09:03,583 --> 00:09:04,936 and your colleagues for doing this. 229 00:09:07,403 --> 00:09:10,189 So besides works of philosophy, which we'll discuss 230 00:09:10,189 --> 00:09:10,746 in a moment, 231 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:13,799 what new texts have been discovered in the 232 00:09:13,799 --> 00:09:15,320 papaya millennium to this point? 233 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:19,959 Yeah. So the first important thing to say 234 00:09:19,959 --> 00:09:20,815 is that 235 00:09:21,493 --> 00:09:23,109 Each of the pap proprietary 236 00:09:23,726 --> 00:09:26,198 found in the in their clinical collection so 237 00:09:26,198 --> 00:09:26,698 far 238 00:09:27,235 --> 00:09:28,990 is a new... Is a is a witness 239 00:09:28,990 --> 00:09:31,711 to a new completely new tech. Mh. So 240 00:09:31,711 --> 00:09:32,528 we don't have 241 00:09:32,979 --> 00:09:35,515 this text from any other sources. 242 00:09:35,991 --> 00:09:38,210 So it is a specialized philosophical. 243 00:09:39,101 --> 00:09:41,172 Library, as you said. So most of the... 244 00:09:41,411 --> 00:09:43,403 So the Greek of expiry coming from this 245 00:09:43,403 --> 00:09:43,903 library 246 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:46,292 referred to philosophical, 247 00:09:46,748 --> 00:09:49,174 context and there's especially to peculiar. 248 00:09:49,867 --> 00:09:53,128 There are also some proprietary from, the stoic 249 00:09:53,128 --> 00:09:53,765 schools so, 250 00:09:54,894 --> 00:09:58,170 the preserve works from the stoic season. 251 00:09:59,608 --> 00:10:02,245 But most of the Greek Pap are philosophical 252 00:10:02,245 --> 00:10:05,229 texts this also... It also interesting because philosophy 253 00:10:05,446 --> 00:10:07,061 in in the ancient word 254 00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:10,940 means something probably broader than what we expect. 255 00:10:11,433 --> 00:10:13,923 So philosophy doesn't only mean, 256 00:10:14,538 --> 00:10:16,869 ethics. It it also means, 257 00:10:17,484 --> 00:10:18,859 physics. It means 258 00:10:19,570 --> 00:10:20,070 poetry, 259 00:10:20,450 --> 00:10:20,929 music, 260 00:10:21,889 --> 00:10:22,389 rhetoric. 261 00:10:22,769 --> 00:10:23,830 It means geometry, 262 00:10:25,009 --> 00:10:27,169 it it means theology. It means a lot 263 00:10:27,169 --> 00:10:28,664 of different things are 264 00:10:29,103 --> 00:10:29,763 it means 265 00:10:30,698 --> 00:10:31,198 other 266 00:10:31,815 --> 00:10:34,127 kind of topics that we're probably not expecting 267 00:10:34,127 --> 00:10:35,345 where you we're talking 268 00:10:35,961 --> 00:10:37,259 of, about philosophy 269 00:10:37,636 --> 00:10:37,875 today. 270 00:10:39,646 --> 00:10:41,902 The left part of the library 271 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,355 is a little bit of a mystery, actually. 272 00:10:45,552 --> 00:10:46,611 There... There's no 273 00:10:47,003 --> 00:10:47,503 possibility. 274 00:10:47,957 --> 00:10:50,762 We we are not able to identify 275 00:10:51,613 --> 00:10:52,590 a unique 276 00:10:53,282 --> 00:10:53,782 context, 277 00:10:54,887 --> 00:10:57,274 they they could belong to the Lot scrolls 278 00:10:57,274 --> 00:10:58,410 could belong to 279 00:10:59,342 --> 00:10:59,842 no 280 00:11:00,218 --> 00:11:02,764 philosophical pap proprietary have been found in the 281 00:11:02,764 --> 00:11:05,747 lot texts. So far, there were attempts to 282 00:11:06,283 --> 00:11:07,022 identify luc 283 00:11:07,876 --> 00:11:10,664 in the in the lot texts, but none 284 00:11:10,664 --> 00:11:12,950 of the of those attempts seem to be, 285 00:11:13,947 --> 00:11:14,267 confirmed, 286 00:11:15,145 --> 00:11:16,582 as stand right now. 287 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:19,775 So the lot tax are interesting because we 288 00:11:19,775 --> 00:11:21,691 can find... So there is some, 289 00:11:22,583 --> 00:11:25,287 historical graphical text, some historical text. 290 00:11:26,242 --> 00:11:28,469 Now, there is a text from Seneca Elder, 291 00:11:29,838 --> 00:11:31,834 which it is possible to read the the 292 00:11:31,834 --> 00:11:32,952 the end title, 293 00:11:33,351 --> 00:11:35,347 but it is very difficult to recover the 294 00:11:35,347 --> 00:11:38,381 text because it's so damaged that we cannot 295 00:11:38,381 --> 00:11:38,881 read 296 00:11:39,752 --> 00:11:41,027 more than a couple of words, 297 00:11:42,063 --> 00:11:42,859 continuous words. 298 00:11:44,214 --> 00:11:46,500 As... And and there are also some text 299 00:11:46,779 --> 00:11:49,489 of a legal nature among the lot tax. 300 00:11:49,808 --> 00:11:52,301 So those are a little bit more surprising 301 00:11:53,236 --> 00:11:55,644 in terms of the general context. And I 302 00:11:55,804 --> 00:11:57,902 I think it will be very interesting to 303 00:11:58,121 --> 00:12:01,557 understand if the virtual wrapping can retrieve some 304 00:12:01,557 --> 00:12:03,975 text from first from from more 305 00:12:04,449 --> 00:12:06,684 lighting scrolls because that would give us, 306 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,792 clearer sense of the latin library in in 307 00:12:11,792 --> 00:12:12,670 the villa pd. 308 00:12:13,323 --> 00:12:13,640 Mh. 309 00:12:14,275 --> 00:12:16,180 Yeah. I mean, that the possibilities are are 310 00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:17,371 so tantalizing, of course. 311 00:12:18,324 --> 00:12:19,832 You know, I think for people who don't 312 00:12:19,832 --> 00:12:21,260 who Know are a little bit about them. 313 00:12:21,419 --> 00:12:24,067 They think of Os pap papaya, for example. 314 00:12:24,706 --> 00:12:26,384 And the works of history found there and 315 00:12:26,384 --> 00:12:28,940 the poetry found there. And I think everyone's 316 00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:32,174 dreaming of, similar discoveries among these interesting 317 00:12:32,554 --> 00:12:34,955 interesting philosophical texts they're being recovered already. 318 00:12:36,315 --> 00:12:37,514 Wasn't there also a poem by the battle 319 00:12:37,514 --> 00:12:40,480 of Act or something they found? Know Very 320 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,103 lighting text. Mh. Yeah. It it is actually 321 00:12:43,103 --> 00:12:45,488 the best preserved among the lighting 322 00:12:46,123 --> 00:12:46,623 Draws 323 00:12:47,574 --> 00:12:49,752 it is a poem in 324 00:12:50,530 --> 00:12:51,249 on a bottle of, 325 00:12:52,368 --> 00:12:54,147 and that that is also interesting. 326 00:12:54,845 --> 00:12:57,011 We don't have that title of it, but 327 00:12:57,011 --> 00:13:00,111 it's it's the best preserved so far among 328 00:13:00,111 --> 00:13:02,574 the lot scrolls. Which is also interesting because 329 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:05,298 it justifies to run interest... Historical interest. But 330 00:13:05,298 --> 00:13:05,798 also 331 00:13:06,972 --> 00:13:09,045 and in a of an interest in, 332 00:13:09,603 --> 00:13:10,103 poetry. 333 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:11,676 Mh. Of course. 334 00:13:13,924 --> 00:13:15,918 Now, as you mentioned, most of the scrolls 335 00:13:15,918 --> 00:13:18,173 are philosophical in nature, above all epic, 336 00:13:19,029 --> 00:13:20,704 and very many related to this person, 337 00:13:21,422 --> 00:13:21,980 Of God. 338 00:13:23,352 --> 00:13:24,869 Can you talk us a bit about this 339 00:13:24,869 --> 00:13:26,306 man and about his philosophy. 340 00:13:28,062 --> 00:13:30,536 So F of gala lived in the first 341 00:13:30,536 --> 00:13:32,487 century bc see. He was 342 00:13:33,422 --> 00:13:34,320 outside of her, 343 00:13:35,015 --> 00:13:38,521 he only known as a poet as an 344 00:13:38,601 --> 00:13:39,101 Epi 345 00:13:39,477 --> 00:13:41,150 as a writer of epi. 346 00:13:42,363 --> 00:13:43,582 And also dia 347 00:13:44,041 --> 00:13:44,861 liars shoes 348 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,018 mentions him has, 349 00:13:47,637 --> 00:13:48,915 as the writer of 350 00:13:49,808 --> 00:13:51,797 for of a work on, 351 00:13:52,354 --> 00:13:53,649 history of philosophy. 352 00:13:54,979 --> 00:13:55,479 But 353 00:13:56,570 --> 00:13:59,793 outside K, we don't have any of his 354 00:13:59,851 --> 00:14:02,245 philosophical texts. From Air titanium, we know that 355 00:14:02,245 --> 00:14:03,623 he wrote a lot of 356 00:14:04,161 --> 00:14:06,816 actually a lot of philosophical books on 357 00:14:07,527 --> 00:14:08,963 really different topics. 358 00:14:09,521 --> 00:14:11,993 So he wrote on ethics. He wrote on 359 00:14:11,993 --> 00:14:13,269 the history of philosophy. 360 00:14:13,667 --> 00:14:15,124 He wrote on on music 361 00:14:15,501 --> 00:14:15,900 poems, 362 00:14:16,313 --> 00:14:17,370 on on rhetoric, 363 00:14:18,381 --> 00:14:21,086 he wrote. So for example, on Ethics, 1 364 00:14:21,086 --> 00:14:23,335 of the most interesting works, 365 00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:26,352 according to me as a work on frank 366 00:14:26,352 --> 00:14:28,583 of speech or frankly disease, 367 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:31,951 which is interesting because it's a sort of 368 00:14:33,761 --> 00:14:35,231 approach to philosophy 369 00:14:35,607 --> 00:14:36,823 and, frank 370 00:14:37,836 --> 00:14:40,303 is looked as is considered, 371 00:14:41,178 --> 00:14:43,940 important not only in the relationship between friends 372 00:14:44,059 --> 00:14:46,229 also in the relationship between 373 00:14:46,604 --> 00:14:49,468 teacher and students and between tell students, it's 374 00:14:49,468 --> 00:14:52,510 a very interesting topic, but actually. And also, 375 00:14:52,669 --> 00:14:55,461 F was for a long time, was considered, 376 00:14:56,259 --> 00:14:59,289 sort of repeater of Epic doctrine, but we 377 00:14:59,289 --> 00:15:00,826 cannot regard him 378 00:15:01,219 --> 00:15:01,779 as a mere, 379 00:15:02,658 --> 00:15:05,395 sla repeat repeater. Mh. He 380 00:15:06,094 --> 00:15:09,210 actually innovated a lot, and he dedicated himself 381 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:09,370 to, 382 00:15:10,501 --> 00:15:11,001 explaining 383 00:15:11,378 --> 00:15:11,616 and, 384 00:15:12,254 --> 00:15:12,754 adapting 385 00:15:13,130 --> 00:15:15,919 the the philosophy of Recruiters while still respecting 386 00:15:15,919 --> 00:15:18,792 it, of course, you know that Epic Is 387 00:15:18,792 --> 00:15:22,541 rejected public life and non necessary pleasure. So 388 00:15:22,833 --> 00:15:23,942 it was a philosophy. 389 00:15:24,434 --> 00:15:25,572 Was not particularly 390 00:15:26,508 --> 00:15:28,045 fitting the roman 391 00:15:28,422 --> 00:15:31,533 context, of course. So he also worked a 392 00:15:31,533 --> 00:15:34,657 lot while still respecting this philosophy to fit, 393 00:15:34,736 --> 00:15:37,835 the, the context of of Roman society. 394 00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:40,400 He actually intended to do 395 00:15:40,774 --> 00:15:43,653 with his greek philosophical Prose, fit That's something 396 00:15:43,653 --> 00:15:46,046 that was very similar to the objective of 397 00:15:46,046 --> 00:15:47,482 the lighting poem, 398 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:48,360 the 399 00:15:49,477 --> 00:15:51,646 Composed by the decreases. With... Which who was 400 00:15:51,646 --> 00:15:54,939 actually a contemporary of and then an extraordinary, 401 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:57,551 dis of Epic philosophy, 402 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,796 for those have Not be familiar, Could you 403 00:16:01,796 --> 00:16:02,035 explain, 404 00:16:02,753 --> 00:16:05,706 the key beliefs of Epic korean philosophy. 405 00:16:06,997 --> 00:16:08,352 We hear more about the stoic these days 406 00:16:08,352 --> 00:16:10,184 in the Internet for some reason. But the 407 00:16:10,264 --> 00:16:12,016 Koreans, of course, we're the other great school 408 00:16:12,016 --> 00:16:13,370 of the hell enrollment periods. 409 00:16:14,184 --> 00:16:16,442 Just a brief outline of what they practiced 410 00:16:16,661 --> 00:16:18,499 and their role in I was like Roman 411 00:16:18,499 --> 00:16:18,819 society. 412 00:16:20,098 --> 00:16:22,755 Yeah. So if we have to summarize. 413 00:16:23,548 --> 00:16:25,225 Epic epithelial, and we can say that is... 414 00:16:25,943 --> 00:16:27,801 First of all, it is 1 of the 415 00:16:27,859 --> 00:16:30,914 philosophical who whose interest was mainly, 416 00:16:31,771 --> 00:16:34,039 devoted to Finding a way 417 00:16:34,414 --> 00:16:34,811 to, 418 00:16:35,606 --> 00:16:36,561 achieve happiness, 419 00:16:37,117 --> 00:16:40,139 And to achieve a happy life. A happy 420 00:16:40,139 --> 00:16:43,571 life means pleasure in needs pleasure, 421 00:16:44,126 --> 00:16:45,023 doesn't mean 422 00:16:47,061 --> 00:16:49,283 lux luxurious life or something like that. 423 00:16:50,092 --> 00:16:52,161 Pleasure means absence of, 424 00:16:53,594 --> 00:16:55,583 pain of his spirit and 425 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:56,697 of the body. 426 00:16:58,380 --> 00:17:00,047 Right. And there's so many ways to achieve 427 00:17:00,047 --> 00:17:01,873 as you set, like, withdraw from public life, 428 00:17:02,032 --> 00:17:03,778 and, you know, the stresses and storms as 429 00:17:03,778 --> 00:17:07,290 the creases would say. Exactly. Yeah. And and 430 00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:10,233 also, an fine understanding of things like honesty, 431 00:17:10,312 --> 00:17:11,107 you know, frank, 432 00:17:11,585 --> 00:17:13,016 of music, of poetry. 433 00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:15,269 And so it's kind of all encompassing philosophy, 434 00:17:15,430 --> 00:17:16,250 which we see 435 00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:16,870 embraced? 436 00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:19,509 And so how much we learned about Epi 437 00:17:19,509 --> 00:17:21,509 korean philosophy from F and other works. 438 00:17:22,477 --> 00:17:23,826 Preserve from the library. How much I mean 439 00:17:23,826 --> 00:17:25,278 new things that we learned about epic the? 440 00:17:26,443 --> 00:17:28,451 We we actually learn a lot 441 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:29,378 because... 442 00:17:30,268 --> 00:17:32,818 We we learned a lot not only about 443 00:17:33,456 --> 00:17:35,311 Himself, but also about other, 444 00:17:37,282 --> 00:17:37,680 authors. 445 00:17:38,575 --> 00:17:39,295 For example, 446 00:17:39,934 --> 00:17:40,434 F 447 00:17:40,894 --> 00:17:42,095 teachers, zeno know, Sid. 448 00:17:42,974 --> 00:17:45,875 Sometimes we have works by F. 449 00:17:46,985 --> 00:17:48,042 Which transmit 450 00:17:49,372 --> 00:17:50,428 some notes 451 00:17:51,122 --> 00:17:53,031 he took during the lectures, 452 00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:55,665 he attended in Athens, 453 00:17:56,141 --> 00:17:57,331 lectures by X Sid, 454 00:17:57,966 --> 00:17:58,125 which, 455 00:17:59,157 --> 00:18:01,379 by the way, also Chic or attended. So 456 00:18:01,379 --> 00:18:01,617 he was, 457 00:18:02,428 --> 00:18:05,243 an important person in the cultural, 458 00:18:05,621 --> 00:18:07,776 in the greek cultural system, Let's say. 459 00:18:09,451 --> 00:18:12,247 So we... Learn a lot on, 460 00:18:12,723 --> 00:18:13,382 on epic. 461 00:18:13,992 --> 00:18:15,261 And on the way, 462 00:18:16,609 --> 00:18:17,109 epic 463 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,140 was 464 00:18:18,688 --> 00:18:20,703 received in in different, 465 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,255 mil, like the roman 466 00:18:23,712 --> 00:18:25,967 environmental or the roman cultural, 467 00:18:26,822 --> 00:18:27,322 society. 468 00:18:28,589 --> 00:18:31,157 And also, F was is also very important 469 00:18:31,293 --> 00:18:32,032 because he 470 00:18:32,407 --> 00:18:33,781 is also sometimes 471 00:18:34,315 --> 00:18:34,815 vol 472 00:18:35,588 --> 00:18:36,088 against 473 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:40,392 other philosophers, so he's talking against other philosophers 474 00:18:40,766 --> 00:18:43,228 from the same school or from different schools. 475 00:18:43,466 --> 00:18:45,554 So we learn a lot about, 476 00:18:46,103 --> 00:18:46,922 the so called 477 00:18:47,617 --> 00:18:48,117 dis, 478 00:18:48,573 --> 00:18:49,073 reading, 479 00:18:50,007 --> 00:18:51,623 but also, we learn 480 00:18:52,398 --> 00:18:53,194 about other, 481 00:18:53,752 --> 00:18:56,259 philosopher from different philosophical schools 482 00:18:57,195 --> 00:19:00,145 through the worst of. So it... It's it's 483 00:19:00,145 --> 00:19:03,734 not only witnessing to epic, but also to 484 00:19:03,734 --> 00:19:04,930 other philosophical schools, 485 00:19:05,744 --> 00:19:06,464 that or, 486 00:19:07,025 --> 00:19:09,505 even not as only the stoic, of course, 487 00:19:09,744 --> 00:19:12,724 but so aristotle or or other philosophers 488 00:19:13,025 --> 00:19:14,920 that were coded or 489 00:19:16,231 --> 00:19:18,458 has to be... Have to be considered as 490 00:19:18,458 --> 00:19:20,366 quoted in infinity words. 491 00:19:21,718 --> 00:19:24,103 So that the whole, philosophical mil you as 492 00:19:24,103 --> 00:19:26,348 you said. Of Rome in the First century 493 00:19:26,428 --> 00:19:26,826 B. 494 00:19:27,384 --> 00:19:28,682 No, I mean, it's fascinating. 495 00:19:29,457 --> 00:19:30,732 Do we have any any new works of 496 00:19:30,892 --> 00:19:32,827 Epic himself among the pap pie 497 00:19:33,778 --> 00:19:34,897 Yeah. We have... So, 498 00:19:35,696 --> 00:19:37,155 before the cleaning pap proprietary 499 00:19:38,252 --> 00:19:40,410 before it was possible to read them. 500 00:19:41,221 --> 00:19:43,471 Epi was only transmitted 501 00:19:44,006 --> 00:19:44,483 by, 502 00:19:45,358 --> 00:19:45,596 indirect, 503 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:47,506 quotation we have, 504 00:19:48,237 --> 00:19:51,605 3 letters and some some of the sentence. 505 00:19:52,221 --> 00:19:54,473 So this short sentences, 506 00:19:55,736 --> 00:19:56,236 summarizing 507 00:19:57,084 --> 00:19:57,584 epic. 508 00:19:58,987 --> 00:20:00,596 But we didn't have anything 509 00:20:01,048 --> 00:20:03,999 from his capital work, on nature. Mh. Actually, 510 00:20:04,157 --> 00:20:06,778 we have several books on nature from the 511 00:20:06,857 --> 00:20:07,357 Pap, 512 00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:09,319 the and Pap expiry. 513 00:20:10,033 --> 00:20:11,566 So we have really 514 00:20:12,114 --> 00:20:15,070 some some of the books are also very 515 00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:17,307 close to the source, we could say, because 516 00:20:17,307 --> 00:20:18,026 some of the books, 517 00:20:19,875 --> 00:20:23,140 including preserving works by Ip are very old. 518 00:20:23,538 --> 00:20:25,392 There are some books that are from the 519 00:20:25,768 --> 00:20:28,883 third century we... Wow, Very close to the 520 00:20:28,883 --> 00:20:31,737 time to the time of Epic himself, and 521 00:20:31,737 --> 00:20:35,067 probably, these books were coming from Athens. 522 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:36,460 We're probably 523 00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:38,220 part of F 524 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:39,019 library, 525 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,519 and he may have taken this with him, 526 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:43,934 brought this pap to 527 00:20:44,453 --> 00:20:46,847 to a Colon to the to the Villa 528 00:20:46,847 --> 00:20:48,842 they where he probably at some point, 529 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,576 they had to to leave or 530 00:20:52,207 --> 00:20:52,707 to, 531 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:54,699 the Villa 532 00:20:55,075 --> 00:20:57,864 probably must have been attended by if few 533 00:20:57,864 --> 00:21:00,033 deem us at some point in his life 534 00:21:00,033 --> 00:21:03,010 because he he was very close to Lu 535 00:21:05,148 --> 00:21:07,920 Who was probably the owner of of this 536 00:21:08,357 --> 00:21:11,384 Villa. And and there are several hints of 537 00:21:11,384 --> 00:21:14,569 the activity of F in the library itself. 538 00:21:14,887 --> 00:21:16,423 Because sometimes you can find, 539 00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:20,150 works written in some multiple copies of the 540 00:21:20,150 --> 00:21:22,715 same works. Mh. And some of these copies 541 00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:23,430 show 542 00:21:23,883 --> 00:21:26,127 interesting feature like, for example, 543 00:21:26,685 --> 00:21:28,383 corrections or additions 544 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,457 that are not attributable 545 00:21:30,835 --> 00:21:31,335 to 546 00:21:31,713 --> 00:21:32,830 sc mistakes. 547 00:21:33,565 --> 00:21:34,625 But rather to 548 00:21:35,164 --> 00:21:37,725 an intention, a precise intention to make the 549 00:21:37,725 --> 00:21:40,660 text better, more elegant, so to 550 00:21:41,176 --> 00:21:43,640 act on directly on the style of the 551 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,150 work, and this is something I we can 552 00:21:45,150 --> 00:21:46,365 only attribute to, 553 00:21:46,740 --> 00:21:49,301 the other themselves. Mh. So we are not 554 00:21:49,301 --> 00:21:52,807 suggesting there that F was pending this books, 555 00:21:52,967 --> 00:21:54,104 but he was probably 556 00:21:54,481 --> 00:21:57,921 their wild is. Books were written. And there 557 00:21:57,921 --> 00:22:01,265 there are some copies of books written written 558 00:22:01,265 --> 00:22:03,596 in the first century Bce so during his 559 00:22:03,653 --> 00:22:03,812 lifetime. 560 00:22:05,177 --> 00:22:07,161 Well, that's fascinating that there are are drafts, 561 00:22:08,271 --> 00:22:10,413 he was probably dictating describes they're in the 562 00:22:10,413 --> 00:22:10,889 library. 563 00:22:12,017 --> 00:22:13,212 Also there were scrolls that were 300 years 564 00:22:13,212 --> 00:22:14,964 old when that was carbon that that is 565 00:22:14,964 --> 00:22:16,000 that they lasted so long. 566 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:18,629 So it still believed then that this room 567 00:22:18,629 --> 00:22:20,835 in which most of Pirate discovered was the 568 00:22:21,034 --> 00:22:23,194 personal library of F or released part of 569 00:22:23,194 --> 00:22:25,115 his collection that was then preserved in the 570 00:22:25,115 --> 00:22:26,554 villa after he died? 571 00:22:27,994 --> 00:22:30,645 Yes. It it is possible because, you know, 572 00:22:30,804 --> 00:22:33,368 F was not, as I said before, transmitted 573 00:22:33,424 --> 00:22:36,282 by any other, Mh tradition. And we have 574 00:22:36,282 --> 00:22:37,552 so many texts by him. 575 00:22:38,282 --> 00:22:39,339 That this must 576 00:22:40,032 --> 00:22:42,976 means something. Mh. It is possible. And also 577 00:22:42,976 --> 00:22:44,726 the multiple copies, the drafts, 578 00:22:45,852 --> 00:22:47,756 and also the fact that we know from 579 00:22:47,993 --> 00:22:51,325 Teacher that, F was so connected to this 580 00:22:51,325 --> 00:22:51,722 person. 581 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:53,429 Scott put. 582 00:22:54,837 --> 00:22:57,540 And so there are several hints that point 583 00:22:57,540 --> 00:22:59,369 to a presence of Geraldine mo send the 584 00:22:59,369 --> 00:22:59,869 library, 585 00:23:00,259 --> 00:23:02,759 and also there's very ancient books 586 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:04,339 with works by 587 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:06,359 And sometimes, also 588 00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:08,434 multiple copies of works by, 589 00:23:09,790 --> 00:23:12,342 in some cases, even 3 copies of the 590 00:23:12,342 --> 00:23:13,081 same book 591 00:23:13,539 --> 00:23:16,171 of a nature by Recruiters. So why do 592 00:23:16,171 --> 00:23:17,846 we have 3 copies of the same book? 593 00:23:18,339 --> 00:23:20,347 Probably because it was particularly 594 00:23:20,959 --> 00:23:23,421 started, so there were many people consulting those 595 00:23:23,421 --> 00:23:25,882 books or because the tax was different in 596 00:23:25,882 --> 00:23:28,694 those... A copies. So it was interesting on 597 00:23:28,694 --> 00:23:31,255 a theological point of view to be able 598 00:23:31,255 --> 00:23:32,875 to compare different copies 599 00:23:33,255 --> 00:23:34,055 of the same book, 600 00:23:34,788 --> 00:23:37,582 Anyway, it seems that this library must have 601 00:23:37,582 --> 00:23:38,380 belonged to 602 00:23:38,858 --> 00:23:39,678 to an epic, 603 00:23:40,055 --> 00:23:42,210 and it's very probable that he... It was. 604 00:23:42,704 --> 00:23:43,422 At least 605 00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:45,517 a part of this library 606 00:23:46,213 --> 00:23:48,627 belonged to F that that he brought 607 00:23:49,084 --> 00:23:51,557 this this library with him to to the 608 00:23:51,557 --> 00:23:51,876 villa. 609 00:23:53,569 --> 00:23:55,250 Yeah, it is, you know, philosopher at work, 610 00:23:55,569 --> 00:23:57,329 if pathologist at work really is kind of 611 00:23:57,329 --> 00:23:58,450 fun for scholars today. 612 00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:01,410 So moving from the past to the present. 613 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:04,068 How do you become involved in the vas 614 00:24:04,124 --> 00:24:04,362 challenge? 615 00:24:06,188 --> 00:24:08,569 So I was involved from the very beginning 616 00:24:08,569 --> 00:24:09,719 of the vas. Challenge, 617 00:24:10,330 --> 00:24:13,504 actually, because I was working with brand seals 618 00:24:13,504 --> 00:24:15,750 at a, another prod... On another project 619 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,560 for the digitization of the open for bio. 620 00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:22,194 Mh, at the library And I remember when 621 00:24:22,273 --> 00:24:24,050 Brent told me about this project 622 00:24:24,428 --> 00:24:25,726 about the Challenge 623 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,099 I was still, 624 00:24:27,718 --> 00:24:28,218 something 625 00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,334 at the very beginning. So they were discussing 626 00:24:31,393 --> 00:24:32,213 this possibility. 627 00:24:32,832 --> 00:24:35,562 And it seemed very interesting because, of course, 628 00:24:35,881 --> 00:24:36,919 it it was for me, 629 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:40,111 a very first experience with this kind of 630 00:24:40,111 --> 00:24:41,228 thing with a competition, 631 00:24:42,026 --> 00:24:43,259 having, people 632 00:24:43,717 --> 00:24:44,696 from the, 633 00:24:45,474 --> 00:24:46,911 from very different fields, 634 00:24:48,827 --> 00:24:51,323 and from different places in the world, working 635 00:24:51,382 --> 00:24:54,035 together on the straws was incredible for me. 636 00:24:54,355 --> 00:24:55,875 And so I was very lucky actually to 637 00:24:55,875 --> 00:24:58,295 be involved from, from the beginning 638 00:24:59,474 --> 00:25:01,645 in the, in the challenge and and this 639 00:25:01,645 --> 00:25:04,118 competition also gave me the opportunity to work 640 00:25:04,118 --> 00:25:04,676 with the, 641 00:25:05,234 --> 00:25:05,734 scholars 642 00:25:06,511 --> 00:25:09,222 for with other neurologists, and it was very 643 00:25:09,222 --> 00:25:10,234 interesting to share this, 644 00:25:11,786 --> 00:25:14,570 this opportunity with them. And also, it gave 645 00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:16,105 me the the chance to 646 00:25:17,037 --> 00:25:19,838 to work together with people from a different 647 00:25:19,838 --> 00:25:20,236 field, 648 00:25:21,111 --> 00:25:22,567 and I think this is very 649 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:24,636 important and stimulating 650 00:25:25,171 --> 00:25:28,455 because sometimes when you're... Don't do not have 651 00:25:28,455 --> 00:25:29,652 the possibility to, 652 00:25:31,167 --> 00:25:32,044 answer some question, 653 00:25:32,523 --> 00:25:34,357 you don't even ask them. 654 00:25:35,969 --> 00:25:38,685 It it is strange, but you change... Is 655 00:25:38,685 --> 00:25:41,641 working with people from different deals, changes your 656 00:25:41,641 --> 00:25:44,768 perspective a lot. Mh. Oh, I'm sure. I 657 00:25:44,768 --> 00:25:46,761 mean, even for my secondary contact of this 658 00:25:46,761 --> 00:25:49,413 whole progress, it's been fascinating to watch, and 659 00:25:49,471 --> 00:25:51,226 this a s energetic effect in action. 660 00:25:52,671 --> 00:25:54,340 For those who might be unfamiliar, could you 661 00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:56,961 please summarize the results thus far of the 662 00:25:56,961 --> 00:25:58,788 contest and why they're so important for our 663 00:25:58,788 --> 00:25:59,741 understanding of the pap pie? 664 00:26:01,988 --> 00:26:04,620 So to summarize it very briefly, 665 00:26:05,258 --> 00:26:07,810 the contest so far has been able to 666 00:26:07,810 --> 00:26:09,539 prove that it is possible to 667 00:26:09,897 --> 00:26:12,757 retrieve text from 1 unopened pap virus. From 668 00:26:12,757 --> 00:26:14,051 an unopened compact, 669 00:26:14,663 --> 00:26:15,163 carbon 670 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:17,205 black lamp, 671 00:26:18,731 --> 00:26:20,107 preserve that the library 672 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,733 in Paris in the in this 673 00:26:23,109 --> 00:26:26,292 situation here or naples or an oxford or 674 00:26:26,292 --> 00:26:28,298 whatever that are actually in 5. 675 00:26:29,174 --> 00:26:33,020 So this really set the stage for a 676 00:26:33,078 --> 00:26:33,237 future, 677 00:26:33,955 --> 00:26:36,221 discovery and for the future 678 00:26:37,153 --> 00:26:37,653 recovery 679 00:26:38,028 --> 00:26:38,528 of, 680 00:26:40,176 --> 00:26:41,926 rate amount or huge amount of tax. 681 00:26:42,736 --> 00:26:43,611 From antiquity. 682 00:26:44,406 --> 00:26:46,417 And it's not only about 683 00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:48,462 reading new texts. 684 00:26:49,098 --> 00:26:52,381 It's also about being able to build new 685 00:26:52,381 --> 00:26:52,881 context 686 00:26:53,259 --> 00:26:55,356 and also to be able to eliminate 687 00:26:55,814 --> 00:26:56,532 previous texts, 688 00:26:57,411 --> 00:26:59,965 thanks to what we'll learn from the new 689 00:26:59,965 --> 00:27:00,205 ones. 690 00:27:01,016 --> 00:27:03,505 So we'll be able to probably to join 691 00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:05,891 pieces that were 692 00:27:06,425 --> 00:27:09,073 enrolled in the past. With pieces that will 693 00:27:09,073 --> 00:27:13,649 be now virtually route. So combining to different 694 00:27:13,868 --> 00:27:17,325 methodologies. So the reconstruction methodology, we use 695 00:27:17,718 --> 00:27:20,907 every day when working on open straws with 696 00:27:20,907 --> 00:27:23,458 the new technologies for virtual wrapping. And I 697 00:27:23,458 --> 00:27:25,611 think this will this will be incredible. 698 00:27:26,424 --> 00:27:28,502 And also we'll have the chance to learn 699 00:27:28,502 --> 00:27:31,878 a lot about the organization of ancient libraries 700 00:27:32,098 --> 00:27:34,735 because this is a unique possibility right now. 701 00:27:35,149 --> 00:27:37,802 Sometimes, in in some cases, there are 702 00:27:38,499 --> 00:27:42,008 some pap papaya that remain glued together, and 703 00:27:42,008 --> 00:27:42,827 this compact 704 00:27:45,291 --> 00:27:48,967 lump, having, like, 6 or 7 screws 705 00:27:49,499 --> 00:27:50,531 attached to each other. 706 00:27:51,801 --> 00:27:54,000 Being able to read the text of those 707 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,197 troll may tell us something about, 708 00:27:56,756 --> 00:27:59,712 books stored on the same shelves. So books 709 00:27:59,712 --> 00:28:02,123 that were stored together in the library And 710 00:28:02,123 --> 00:28:04,515 this is really a unique opportunity we have. 711 00:28:04,913 --> 00:28:09,080 And also, we'll we'll have a greater, larger 712 00:28:09,138 --> 00:28:12,445 amount of... Books, philosophical books from. 713 00:28:12,824 --> 00:28:14,122 So also in terms of 714 00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:17,534 bib physiological features and study of the way 715 00:28:17,534 --> 00:28:20,523 the text was organized and way the titles 716 00:28:20,661 --> 00:28:22,732 were written in the text and the the 717 00:28:22,732 --> 00:28:25,839 columns were written these scripts and everything. It 718 00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:25,999 will, 719 00:28:27,369 --> 00:28:31,359 incredibly enrich our knowledge about ancient books and 720 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,157 ancient libraries. 721 00:28:33,354 --> 00:28:35,110 Oh, And I'm sure. Yeah. To be able 722 00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:37,830 to... Essentially x ray quite literally an entire 723 00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:39,579 agent shelf of books as a 1 of 724 00:28:39,579 --> 00:28:39,897 opportunity. 725 00:28:41,169 --> 00:28:42,838 If I understand only a short section of 726 00:28:42,838 --> 00:28:44,349 taxes has been decipher so far. 727 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:47,796 What is this initial section they've read so 728 00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:49,634 far say? As far as you couldn't read 729 00:28:49,634 --> 00:28:49,714 it? 730 00:28:51,072 --> 00:28:54,120 So it is probably something like... 5 5 731 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,416 percent of the whole, 732 00:28:56,590 --> 00:28:58,741 the Pierre Paris 4. So 1 of the 733 00:28:58,741 --> 00:29:00,255 claims for I restored in Paris. 734 00:29:00,829 --> 00:29:03,303 And so it it is the final part 735 00:29:03,303 --> 00:29:05,617 of the text. We have the upper portion 736 00:29:05,617 --> 00:29:07,931 of the column of the last 15 columns 737 00:29:07,931 --> 00:29:10,014 of the text. Mh And so we also 738 00:29:10,014 --> 00:29:11,546 have the very 739 00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:14,221 ending of the the work which is very 740 00:29:14,221 --> 00:29:16,127 interesting. And the attacks seem to be... 741 00:29:17,019 --> 00:29:18,537 Seems to deal with, 742 00:29:19,655 --> 00:29:23,171 the perceptions and pleasure, and probably, it is 743 00:29:23,171 --> 00:29:24,230 about how 744 00:29:24,544 --> 00:29:26,289 to achieve knowledge of things, 745 00:29:26,845 --> 00:29:29,384 thanks to sensations and and senses. 746 00:29:30,177 --> 00:29:31,471 There are some examples 747 00:29:31,939 --> 00:29:33,236 on various, 748 00:29:34,012 --> 00:29:34,512 different 749 00:29:35,208 --> 00:29:36,325 fields. So, for example, 750 00:29:37,441 --> 00:29:40,950 the author talks about food when talking about, 751 00:29:41,203 --> 00:29:41,759 about taste. 752 00:29:42,394 --> 00:29:44,936 It talks about music probably when talking about 753 00:29:44,936 --> 00:29:47,954 hearing. So there are different examples from different 754 00:29:47,954 --> 00:29:49,279 fields, but it seems like, 755 00:29:49,877 --> 00:29:51,174 like, the the 756 00:29:51,551 --> 00:29:54,660 the background, so the general context, the general 757 00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:56,037 topic is perception 758 00:29:56,414 --> 00:29:57,290 sensations. Mh. 759 00:29:58,505 --> 00:30:00,424 Yes. So hopefully much more to come, on 760 00:30:00,424 --> 00:30:01,304 that and everything else. 761 00:30:02,424 --> 00:30:05,164 So if the next phases of the challenge 762 00:30:05,224 --> 00:30:07,308 proceed as we hope and all the scrolls 763 00:30:07,308 --> 00:30:07,808 currently 764 00:30:08,817 --> 00:30:10,801 above ground in Naples and Paris, and Oxford 765 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:11,380 Elsewhere 766 00:30:11,753 --> 00:30:13,023 can be at least partially red. 767 00:30:14,234 --> 00:30:15,914 You know, what we hope to find? Besides, 768 00:30:15,994 --> 00:30:18,575 of course, things like the organization of libraries, 769 00:30:19,275 --> 00:30:20,554 and the practical details of how things were 770 00:30:20,554 --> 00:30:21,434 organized and red. 771 00:30:23,043 --> 00:30:25,589 So we we expect... So when When I 772 00:30:25,589 --> 00:30:28,136 asked this question. Mh. Probably I am a 773 00:30:28,136 --> 00:30:29,091 little bit influenced, 774 00:30:29,823 --> 00:30:31,759 from what I know the library 775 00:30:32,536 --> 00:30:32,775 preserved, 776 00:30:33,653 --> 00:30:36,467 because, of course, I'm probably not expecting 777 00:30:37,415 --> 00:30:38,869 poems from antiquity. 778 00:30:39,244 --> 00:30:39,744 I'm 779 00:30:40,278 --> 00:30:40,778 rather 780 00:30:41,629 --> 00:30:44,651 expecting works of philosophies or philosophical works, 781 00:30:45,463 --> 00:30:47,559 especially related to epic. 782 00:30:48,176 --> 00:30:50,751 So we can we can expect 783 00:30:51,528 --> 00:30:54,491 the missing books, of the works we already 784 00:30:54,491 --> 00:30:56,265 have, but also several 785 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:57,220 works 786 00:30:57,835 --> 00:31:00,994 written by authors we don't know anything about 787 00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:03,907 So completely new text, also from completely new 788 00:31:03,907 --> 00:31:06,321 authors or text from 789 00:31:06,699 --> 00:31:08,055 written by authors, 790 00:31:08,708 --> 00:31:10,937 we we know, but we didn't have any 791 00:31:10,937 --> 00:31:11,437 text 792 00:31:11,812 --> 00:31:15,076 from. Mh. And also, as I said before, 793 00:31:15,474 --> 00:31:17,941 I am very curious about the lot texts. 794 00:31:18,674 --> 00:31:20,111 Coming from the virtual wrapping. 795 00:31:20,909 --> 00:31:24,103 Because the lot straws were so damaged that 796 00:31:24,103 --> 00:31:26,019 it was so difficult to to read them 797 00:31:26,019 --> 00:31:27,796 and understand out their content 798 00:31:28,988 --> 00:31:31,145 it has been very difficult so far. We 799 00:31:31,145 --> 00:31:32,284 don't know precisely 800 00:31:32,903 --> 00:31:35,794 why. So they may have been stored in 801 00:31:35,794 --> 00:31:37,172 a place in the library 802 00:31:37,551 --> 00:31:38,451 where there were 803 00:31:39,309 --> 00:31:42,400 less protected. Mh. From the eruption, so just 804 00:31:42,519 --> 00:31:44,744 could be 1 of 1 of the causes 805 00:31:44,744 --> 00:31:45,141 for that. 806 00:31:46,015 --> 00:31:47,843 There may be other Lot scrolls in the 807 00:31:47,843 --> 00:31:49,511 library in the in the Villa, 808 00:31:50,325 --> 00:31:52,725 underground. We don't know that. But the fact 809 00:31:52,725 --> 00:31:55,445 is that that in Pap are fewer, 810 00:31:55,845 --> 00:31:56,664 and there are 811 00:31:56,965 --> 00:31:58,005 were worse preserved. 812 00:31:58,576 --> 00:32:00,321 Than the the brief 1. So I I'm 813 00:32:00,321 --> 00:32:01,377 very curious about 814 00:32:01,829 --> 00:32:02,567 to learn 815 00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:05,162 about new techs coming from virtual dropping because 816 00:32:05,162 --> 00:32:07,564 it it will be really the first opportunity 817 00:32:07,564 --> 00:32:08,780 to read a continuous 818 00:32:09,553 --> 00:32:12,895 text from a aladdin scroll in general and 819 00:32:12,895 --> 00:32:14,726 from But also in general. Mh. 820 00:32:15,616 --> 00:32:15,855 Alright. 821 00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:18,720 You mentioned that some stores were found in 822 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,028 carrying cases when they were first digging up 823 00:32:21,028 --> 00:32:23,352 or tunnel into the villa. Do we know 824 00:32:23,352 --> 00:32:25,345 which scrolls were found in those cases or 825 00:32:25,345 --> 00:32:26,621 they all jumbled together? 826 00:32:27,657 --> 00:32:29,273 Not precisely, unfortunately, 827 00:32:29,889 --> 00:32:32,609 because so the... Actually, there are some excavation... 828 00:32:32,768 --> 00:32:34,619 The excavation journals are 829 00:32:35,073 --> 00:32:37,776 offer a lot of information about, 830 00:32:38,824 --> 00:32:41,134 the things that were found them where they 831 00:32:41,134 --> 00:32:44,183 were found. Mh. And sometimes, we have the 832 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,993 measurements of the pap virus and in some 833 00:32:45,993 --> 00:32:49,030 cases, we have details like the particularly long 834 00:32:49,030 --> 00:32:51,174 pap proprietary were founded in this room. Mh. 835 00:32:51,332 --> 00:32:53,158 And so this can be interesting. We know 836 00:32:53,158 --> 00:32:56,016 that Lot Pap papaya were a taller than 837 00:32:56,016 --> 00:32:56,492 greek ones, 838 00:32:57,542 --> 00:32:58,020 at least, 839 00:32:58,737 --> 00:33:00,809 as far as we can say, from the 840 00:33:00,969 --> 00:33:01,447 Pap hiring, 841 00:33:02,005 --> 00:33:03,143 that have been opened 842 00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:04,635 in the from the library, 843 00:33:05,524 --> 00:33:08,063 so this can be interesting thing, but, of 844 00:33:08,063 --> 00:33:10,681 course, the Pap papaya were inventor inventory later, 845 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,823 so we don't precise the which. 846 00:33:13,634 --> 00:33:15,869 We took the pap were were found in 847 00:33:15,869 --> 00:33:18,263 our specific in the place in the Villa. 848 00:33:18,583 --> 00:33:18,902 Mh. 849 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:21,616 And so it's believed then that in this 850 00:33:21,616 --> 00:33:23,304 the store room where most the pirate found 851 00:33:23,304 --> 00:33:24,973 that they were on shelves. Right? Almost like 852 00:33:24,973 --> 00:33:25,847 a modern library. 853 00:33:26,643 --> 00:33:26,801 Yes. 854 00:33:27,676 --> 00:33:30,084 So the the excavation journals describe 855 00:33:30,538 --> 00:33:33,653 also the furniture. Most and the pieces of 856 00:33:33,653 --> 00:33:34,153 furniture 857 00:33:34,767 --> 00:33:37,231 found in the in the rooms. So in 858 00:33:37,231 --> 00:33:39,458 some cases, you see clearly that there are 859 00:33:39,458 --> 00:33:43,365 older, pieces belonging to cabinets and shelves. Mh. 860 00:33:43,524 --> 00:33:46,884 So it is interesting because this small room 861 00:33:47,496 --> 00:33:50,532 seem to have had previous shelves we can 862 00:33:50,532 --> 00:33:52,605 imagine them in a, in a modern library. 863 00:33:53,641 --> 00:33:56,373 The the the schools were stored horizontally 864 00:33:56,829 --> 00:34:00,058 in in these shelves as And we may 865 00:34:00,916 --> 00:34:02,674 expect that there were a lot of shows 866 00:34:02,674 --> 00:34:04,831 in this library because many of Iv were 867 00:34:04,831 --> 00:34:06,365 found there. Mh. 868 00:34:07,244 --> 00:34:08,844 Right. But they weren't read there as you 869 00:34:08,844 --> 00:34:10,684 said, of course, this was a small room 870 00:34:10,684 --> 00:34:12,285 without windows and they were probably red in 871 00:34:12,285 --> 00:34:13,244 these open spaces. 872 00:34:14,295 --> 00:34:15,408 Yeah. It's very probable. 873 00:34:16,123 --> 00:34:17,873 And that, you know, along with the the 874 00:34:17,873 --> 00:34:20,019 great mystery of Royal And pie are coming 875 00:34:20,019 --> 00:34:21,212 from where they might still be. 876 00:34:21,864 --> 00:34:23,143 Just said we have no idea. You know, 877 00:34:23,222 --> 00:34:24,421 there might be nothing there, There might be 878 00:34:24,421 --> 00:34:25,859 all kinds of things there. But 879 00:34:26,658 --> 00:34:28,176 do you think it's likely that 880 00:34:28,576 --> 00:34:28,815 the... 881 00:34:29,627 --> 00:34:31,775 In our anticipation or expectation of there being 882 00:34:31,775 --> 00:34:33,922 more roles. There will be no excavation at 883 00:34:33,922 --> 00:34:35,354 the villa and the near future is that 884 00:34:35,354 --> 00:34:35,934 a possibility? 885 00:34:37,914 --> 00:34:38,891 There is a possibility 886 00:34:40,538 --> 00:34:42,684 that other pap can be found in the 887 00:34:42,684 --> 00:34:43,161 library. 888 00:34:44,687 --> 00:34:46,754 Because we know that the the Bee love 889 00:34:46,754 --> 00:34:50,092 for sure wasn't... Hasn't been ex activated in 890 00:34:50,092 --> 00:34:51,681 in its entirety. 891 00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:54,162 So there are some part portions of the... 892 00:34:54,401 --> 00:34:57,264 Some regions of the Villa that have never 893 00:34:57,264 --> 00:34:58,776 been activated, never been... 894 00:34:59,586 --> 00:35:00,723 Take to the, 895 00:35:01,337 --> 00:35:03,087 to the, to an open, 896 00:35:03,644 --> 00:35:04,042 area. 897 00:35:05,315 --> 00:35:06,451 But it is also 898 00:35:06,827 --> 00:35:09,552 difficult and of course, I'm not an archaeologist, 899 00:35:09,713 --> 00:35:11,570 so it's difficult for me to 900 00:35:12,588 --> 00:35:14,666 to say what will happen in the in 901 00:35:14,666 --> 00:35:17,179 the future. So because there is the modern 902 00:35:17,238 --> 00:35:20,135 city insisting and it's very close to the, 903 00:35:20,674 --> 00:35:21,334 to the 904 00:35:22,192 --> 00:35:24,350 excavation side to the side of the Villa, 905 00:35:25,002 --> 00:35:27,549 and also, I know that now the general 906 00:35:27,549 --> 00:35:29,459 tendencies is to try to preserve what we 907 00:35:29,459 --> 00:35:31,550 have rather than Mh. Ex 908 00:35:32,164 --> 00:35:34,018 and bring to light more 909 00:35:34,649 --> 00:35:37,844 structures because that that is an area where 910 00:35:37,844 --> 00:35:39,762 you more or less know that if you 911 00:35:39,762 --> 00:35:41,300 estimate, you find something 912 00:35:42,169 --> 00:35:43,996 and so there is a general tendency to 913 00:35:43,996 --> 00:35:47,015 try to maintain and preserve what you have 914 00:35:47,015 --> 00:35:49,160 right now. So I understand that it is 915 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:49,637 challenging. 916 00:35:50,128 --> 00:35:51,640 It would be great if they could, 917 00:35:52,674 --> 00:35:55,776 ex activate more because we could be able 918 00:35:55,776 --> 00:35:56,833 to see 919 00:35:57,545 --> 00:36:00,265 the the whole side of the the Village 920 00:36:00,265 --> 00:36:00,905 to understand, 921 00:36:01,945 --> 00:36:04,265 what are the part we're still... We are 922 00:36:04,265 --> 00:36:06,719 still missing and also perhaps to find out 923 00:36:06,919 --> 00:36:07,158 scrolls. 924 00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:08,036 Mh. 925 00:36:08,753 --> 00:36:11,385 Right. Well, here here's hoping certainly that they 926 00:36:11,385 --> 00:36:14,018 make that attempt and that the process of 927 00:36:14,018 --> 00:36:16,091 the decipher ring goes as we all... Expected 928 00:36:16,091 --> 00:36:17,784 to. Because, this is a wonderful exciting time 929 00:36:17,784 --> 00:36:19,382 to be involved in anything with a Pirate, 930 00:36:19,782 --> 00:36:21,460 and especially in a in in a special. 931 00:36:22,579 --> 00:36:24,416 So thank you so much, Dr Glad for 932 00:36:24,416 --> 00:36:25,775 taking the time to speak with us about 933 00:36:25,775 --> 00:36:26,255 this project. 934 00:36:26,826 --> 00:36:28,094 I know I'll be looking forward to hearing 935 00:36:28,094 --> 00:36:30,630 much more about it. And so everyone else 936 00:36:30,789 --> 00:36:32,295 I listening to listen to this podcast I 937 00:36:32,295 --> 00:36:32,453 expect. 938 00:36:34,296 --> 00:36:35,177 So so thanks again. 939 00:36:36,296 --> 00:36:37,416 Thank you. Thank you so much.