Welcome to the To podcast.
I'm Garrett Ryan, and My I guess today
is Doctor. Fed Nic.
This as professor and,
At Of Naples Fed the second.
Dr Nikola Lard. Thanks for joining us.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here
with your state. Oh, likewise.
Doctor Works on the famous her palladium scrolls,
eva of highly carbon by disruption of In
79 Ad d.
Since last year she been involved with the
V challenge. A project that's using machine learning
to virtually un ramp and read the scrolls.
We'll, discuss the very exciting results of the
challenge shortly.
But first, a bit of background. Frame we're
not familiar with the scrolls.
Could you tell us a bit about, how
and where the her scrolls were discovered.
So the claims scrolls were found in seaside
Villa, Luxurious villa in the bay of Naples
in,
the ancient city where.
And,
actually, the excavation were not systematic archaeological
excavation as the ones we have today. We
can see today. It was was more like
a recovery of ancient marble,
ancient statues and findings from the ground. The
things were coming from wells
pertaining to farm workers,
people leading in the ancient in the in
the modern city of Regina. So the ancient
city claim.
So it was more like, an exploration, And
the the Vip pap pd, in particular was
found for first time in 17 50.
And the first pap expiry were far found
in 10/19/1752.
It is also a very interesting to...
Think about where precisely in the villa this
growth were found because the discoveries... So the
findings, the findings
happened in different places in Villa. Some of
the pap papaya were found in the
reception rooms
of the the Venus so between the 2
pairs styles. So in this room
lead by the light coming from the 2
paris styles, but most of those scrolls, most
of the library,
was actually found in a very small room
internal room styles in the Villa, which was
probably, like a storage room
where all the books were kept, and it's
also interesting that some of the pap pie,
some of the scrolls were found in boxes,
because this can mean that there was a
a very
living
activity, and
so the there was a dynamic
situation in in the Villa where the pap
papaya were moved from 1 place to another.
We have to think that it was not
very comfortable to read this scrolls in a
small room,
which was not
where the light was not coming from
from the... External parts of the Villa. So,
it is interesting to think that there were
people moving these scrolls from the most internal
rooms of the library to the res reception
room to be able to read them. And
so probably the boxes were used for that.
Okay. Yeah. Very interesting. I know that the
the villa has only been partially even today,
and we'll talk more about possibilities is what
might lie within the still buried segments later.
So to date, how many controls have been
opened and how many remain unopened? The
Yeah. This is a difficult question. Actually,
because we don't have a precise number of
straws.
Housed in the library of the Villa pd.
This is caused... This is due to
fragmentation of the scrolls because many of the
scrolls broke up
during the eruption or even later when they
were discovered or during the,
attempt to open them.
We can say that D collection
includes more than 1800
inventory numbers, which doesn't mean 08/01/1800
event scrolls in the whole collection.
Probably,
originally, the library house somewhere between
801000
cro, 1 1000 books,
and
if we if we look at the inventory
numbers, right now, over 600
referred to
unopened material, and more than 100 referred to
material for which in,
an opening was attempted, but then
interrupted because
situation was probably too difficult, and the results
were not particularly promising,
So we still have a lot of material.
We have this,
big
wooden drawers,
very fascinating actually.
In the Op opportunity At the national library
of naples
where this unopened material is stored. And you
can see from... So
both
tires pros and portions of scrolls, like fragments
that are completely unopened and never touched.
And it's fascinating.
As you mentioned, if fact that some these
scrolls are partially opened and many fell apart
during the eruption or afterward upon handling.
Other they're extremely delicate objects. So what are
some of the challenges of handling or working
with
such fragile material.
Yeah. So third
this actually is a strange situation out of
the canadian pap proprietary particular condition because they
are a carbon. They're very fragile, but at
the same time, they look like petrified object.
They look like very compact almost petrified object.
So
on 1 side, they are incredibly
fragile. On the other side, they are,
incredibly,
compact and difficult to to open difficult to
access. As far as the
open for Bi, are concerned,
so Man handling them can be, of course,
very dangerous and,
we people have so did these callers who
study, but priority have to be very careful
about that because we cannot,
keep the pap between 2,
glass pieces as it happens for Pap found
elsewhere,
not carbon pap,
So when you look at the pap virus
under the microscope,
you don't have anything protecting it. Yeah. There's
nothing on top of the virus. So you're
handling the of wooden board to to which
the pap virus glued and you're handling directly
under the microscope.
So, of course, there, it it is dangerous
to
handle them,
and also, there are, other challenges when you
have to deal with this pap. So on
1 side,
and so on top of their Gb and
carbon capitalization and everything else,
you have the difficulty
in reading the a fiery because of the
black ink on the black surface.
So it is... It can be
particularly challenging
to decipher attacks because you cannot,
very clearly in some situation,
distinguish the surface of the virus
from the, ink that you are interested in.
And then there is a problem of fragmentation,
of course, because as I said before, many
of the girls were fragmented, and so they
were... They broke up in several pieces. And
so,
most of our work today at the work
with the pathologist working on open Pap,
is to try to reconstruct the holes cro,
putting all the fragments back together to their
original position. And then there is another problem
that is closely connected to
the,
the condition, the compact
condition of this growth, which is the so
haul strat we refer to that with this
term,
which means that there are,
very often
overlapping layers of virus. So the
detachment of single individual layers were was not
always
attained. It was very difficult actually to attain.
So, on the contrary,
it happened very often that several layers remained
the attached 1 to another And so this
results in a situation where you cannot,
read a continuous text. But your taxes continuously
is constantly...
Interrupted by other fragments coming from under other
layers. So,
there is a need of reconstruction where you
have to put this fragments back to their
original position.
Yes. It sounds like a a monumental task.
At at Michigan where I did my my
Phd. We had P from Car in Egypt,
which, of course, our standard Pap papaya, you
know, they're not carbon.
But even though if there was a big
box we had in the in the the
room, those full of fragments about the size
of a finger nail, and we would try
to be reconstruct them from those. And of
course, when they're carbon and add adhering together,
it's whole levels of difficulty more.
Professor Gen, who I I worked with at
Michigan a couple times. Just tell me about
this, and
it sounded.
As I said,
quite an effort. So a kudos to you
and your colleagues for doing this.
So besides works of philosophy, which we'll discuss
in a moment,
what new texts have been discovered in the
papaya millennium to this point?
Yeah. So the first important thing to say
is that
Each of the pap proprietary
found in the in their clinical collection so
far
is a new... Is a is a witness
to a new completely new tech. Mh. So
we don't have
this text from any other sources.
So it is a specialized philosophical.
Library, as you said. So most of the...
So the Greek of expiry coming from this
library
referred to philosophical,
context and there's especially to peculiar.
There are also some proprietary from, the stoic
schools so,
the preserve works from the stoic season.
But most of the Greek Pap are philosophical
texts this also... It also interesting because philosophy
in in the ancient word
means something probably broader than what we expect.
So philosophy doesn't only mean,
ethics. It it also means,
physics. It means
poetry,
music,
rhetoric.
It means geometry,
it it means theology. It means a lot
of different things are
it means
other
kind of topics that we're probably not expecting
where you we're talking
of, about philosophy
today.
The left part of the library
is a little bit of a mystery, actually.
There... There's no
possibility.
We we are not able to identify
a unique
context,
they they could belong to the Lot scrolls
could belong to
no
philosophical pap proprietary have been found in the
lot texts. So far, there were attempts to
identify luc
in the in the lot texts, but none
of the of those attempts seem to be,
confirmed,
as stand right now.
So the lot tax are interesting because we
can find... So there is some,
historical graphical text, some historical text.
Now, there is a text from Seneca Elder,
which it is possible to read the the
the end title,
but it is very difficult to recover the
text because it's so damaged that we cannot
read
more than a couple of words,
continuous words.
As... And and there are also some text
of a legal nature among the lot tax.
So those are a little bit more surprising
in terms of the general context. And I
I think it will be very interesting to
understand if the virtual wrapping can retrieve some
text from first from from more
lighting scrolls because that would give us,
clearer sense of the latin library in in
the villa pd.
Mh.
Yeah. I mean, that the possibilities are are
so tantalizing, of course.
You know, I think for people who don't
who Know are a little bit about them.
They think of Os pap papaya, for example.
And the works of history found there and
the poetry found there. And I think everyone's
dreaming of, similar discoveries among these interesting
interesting philosophical texts they're being recovered already.
Wasn't there also a poem by the battle
of Act or something they found? Know Very
lighting text. Mh. Yeah. It it is actually
the best preserved among the lighting
Draws
it is a poem in
on a bottle of,
and that that is also interesting.
We don't have that title of it, but
it's it's the best preserved so far among
the lot scrolls. Which is also interesting because
it justifies to run interest... Historical interest. But
also
and in a of an interest in,
poetry.
Mh. Of course.
Now, as you mentioned, most of the scrolls
are philosophical in nature, above all epic,
and very many related to this person,
Of God.
Can you talk us a bit about this
man and about his philosophy.
So F of gala lived in the first
century bc see. He was
outside of her,
he only known as a poet as an
Epi
as a writer of epi.
And also dia
liars shoes
mentions him has,
as the writer of
for of a work on,
history of philosophy.
But
outside K, we don't have any of his
philosophical texts. From Air titanium, we know that
he wrote a lot of
actually a lot of philosophical books on
really different topics.
So he wrote on ethics. He wrote on
the history of philosophy.
He wrote on on music
poems,
on on rhetoric,
he wrote. So for example, on Ethics, 1
of the most interesting works,
according to me as a work on frank
of speech or frankly disease,
which is interesting because it's a sort of
approach to philosophy
and, frank
is looked as is considered,
important not only in the relationship between friends
also in the relationship between
teacher and students and between tell students, it's
a very interesting topic, but actually. And also,
F was for a long time, was considered,
sort of repeater of Epic doctrine, but we
cannot regard him
as a mere,
sla repeat repeater. Mh. He
actually innovated a lot, and he dedicated himself
to,
explaining
and,
adapting
the the philosophy of Recruiters while still respecting
it, of course, you know that Epic Is
rejected public life and non necessary pleasure. So
it was a philosophy.
Was not particularly
fitting the roman
context, of course. So he also worked a
lot while still respecting this philosophy to fit,
the, the context of of Roman society.
He actually intended to do
with his greek philosophical Prose, fit That's something
that was very similar to the objective of
the lighting poem,
the
Composed by the decreases. With... Which who was
actually a contemporary of and then an extraordinary,
dis of Epic philosophy,
for those have Not be familiar, Could you
explain,
the key beliefs of Epic korean philosophy.
We hear more about the stoic these days
in the Internet for some reason. But the
Koreans, of course, we're the other great school
of the hell enrollment periods.
Just a brief outline of what they practiced
and their role in I was like Roman
society.
Yeah. So if we have to summarize.
Epic epithelial, and we can say that is...
First of all, it is 1 of the
philosophical who whose interest was mainly,
devoted to Finding a way
to,
achieve happiness,
And to achieve a happy life. A happy
life means pleasure in needs pleasure,
doesn't mean
lux luxurious life or something like that.
Pleasure means absence of,
pain of his spirit and
of the body.
Right. And there's so many ways to achieve
as you set, like, withdraw from public life,
and, you know, the stresses and storms as
the creases would say. Exactly. Yeah. And and
also, an fine understanding of things like honesty,
you know, frank,
of music, of poetry.
And so it's kind of all encompassing philosophy,
which we see
embraced?
And so how much we learned about Epi
korean philosophy from F and other works.
Preserve from the library. How much I mean
new things that we learned about epic the?
We we actually learn a lot
because...
We we learned a lot not only about
Himself, but also about other,
authors.
For example,
F
teachers, zeno know, Sid.
Sometimes we have works by F.
Which transmit
some notes
he took during the lectures,
he attended in Athens,
lectures by X Sid,
which,
by the way, also Chic or attended. So
he was,
an important person in the cultural,
in the greek cultural system, Let's say.
So we... Learn a lot on,
on epic.
And on the way,
epic
was
received in in different,
mil, like the roman
environmental or the roman cultural,
society.
And also, F was is also very important
because he
is also sometimes
vol
against
other philosophers, so he's talking against other philosophers
from the same school or from different schools.
So we learn a lot about,
the so called
dis,
reading,
but also, we learn
about other,
philosopher from different philosophical schools
through the worst of. So it... It's it's
not only witnessing to epic, but also to
other philosophical schools,
that or,
even not as only the stoic, of course,
but so aristotle or or other philosophers
that were coded or
has to be... Have to be considered as
quoted in infinity words.
So that the whole, philosophical mil you as
you said. Of Rome in the First century
B.
No, I mean, it's fascinating.
Do we have any any new works of
Epic himself among the pap pie
Yeah. We have... So,
before the cleaning pap proprietary
before it was possible to read them.
Epi was only transmitted
by,
indirect,
quotation we have,
3 letters and some some of the sentence.
So this short sentences,
summarizing
epic.
But we didn't have anything
from his capital work, on nature. Mh. Actually,
we have several books on nature from the
Pap,
the and Pap expiry.
So we have really
some some of the books are also very
close to the source, we could say, because
some of the books,
including preserving works by Ip are very old.
There are some books that are from the
third century we... Wow, Very close to the
time to the time of Epic himself, and
probably, these books were coming from Athens.
We're probably
part of F
library,
and he may have taken this with him,
brought this pap to
to a Colon to the to the Villa
they where he probably at some point,
they had to to leave or
to,
the Villa
probably must have been attended by if few
deem us at some point in his life
because he he was very close to Lu
Who was probably the owner of of this
Villa. And and there are several hints of
the activity of F in the library itself.
Because sometimes you can find,
works written in some multiple copies of the
same works. Mh. And some of these copies
show
interesting feature like, for example,
corrections or additions
that are not attributable
to
sc mistakes.
But rather to
an intention, a precise intention to make the
text better, more elegant, so to
act on directly on the style of the
work, and this is something I we can
only attribute to,
the other themselves. Mh. So we are not
suggesting there that F was pending this books,
but he was probably
their wild is. Books were written. And there
there are some copies of books written written
in the first century Bce so during his
lifetime.
Well, that's fascinating that there are are drafts,
he was probably dictating describes they're in the
library.
Also there were scrolls that were 300 years
old when that was carbon that that is
that they lasted so long.
So it still believed then that this room
in which most of Pirate discovered was the
personal library of F or released part of
his collection that was then preserved in the
villa after he died?
Yes. It it is possible because, you know,
F was not, as I said before, transmitted
by any other, Mh tradition. And we have
so many texts by him.
That this must
means something. Mh. It is possible. And also
the multiple copies, the drafts,
and also the fact that we know from
Teacher that, F was so connected to this
person.
Scott put.
And so there are several hints that point
to a presence of Geraldine mo send the
library,
and also there's very ancient books
with works by
And sometimes, also
multiple copies of works by,
in some cases, even 3 copies of the
same book
of a nature by Recruiters. So why do
we have 3 copies of the same book?
Probably because it was particularly
started, so there were many people consulting those
books or because the tax was different in
those... A copies. So it was interesting on
a theological point of view to be able
to compare different copies
of the same book,
Anyway, it seems that this library must have
belonged to
to an epic,
and it's very probable that he... It was.
At least
a part of this library
belonged to F that that he brought
this this library with him to to the
villa.
Yeah, it is, you know, philosopher at work,
if pathologist at work really is kind of
fun for scholars today.
So moving from the past to the present.
How do you become involved in the vas
challenge?
So I was involved from the very beginning
of the vas. Challenge,
actually, because I was working with brand seals
at a, another prod... On another project
for the digitization of the open for bio.
Mh, at the library And I remember when
Brent told me about this project
about the Challenge
I was still,
something
at the very beginning. So they were discussing
this possibility.
And it seemed very interesting because, of course,
it it was for me,
a very first experience with this kind of
thing with a competition,
having, people
from the,
from very different fields,
and from different places in the world, working
together on the straws was incredible for me.
And so I was very lucky actually to
be involved from, from the beginning
in the, in the challenge and and this
competition also gave me the opportunity to work
with the,
scholars
for with other neurologists, and it was very
interesting to share this,
this opportunity with them. And also, it gave
me the the chance to
to work together with people from a different
field,
and I think this is very
important and stimulating
because sometimes when you're... Don't do not have
the possibility to,
answer some question,
you don't even ask them.
It it is strange, but you change... Is
working with people from different deals, changes your
perspective a lot. Mh. Oh, I'm sure. I
mean, even for my secondary contact of this
whole progress, it's been fascinating to watch, and
this a s energetic effect in action.
For those who might be unfamiliar, could you
please summarize the results thus far of the
contest and why they're so important for our
understanding of the pap pie?
So to summarize it very briefly,
the contest so far has been able to
prove that it is possible to
retrieve text from 1 unopened pap virus. From
an unopened compact,
carbon
black lamp,
preserve that the library
in Paris in the in this
situation here or naples or an oxford or
whatever that are actually in 5.
So this really set the stage for a
future,
discovery and for the future
recovery
of,
rate amount or huge amount of tax.
From antiquity.
And it's not only about
reading new texts.
It's also about being able to build new
context
and also to be able to eliminate
previous texts,
thanks to what we'll learn from the new
ones.
So we'll be able to probably to join
pieces that were
enrolled in the past. With pieces that will
be now virtually route. So combining to different
methodologies. So the reconstruction methodology, we use
every day when working on open straws with
the new technologies for virtual wrapping. And I
think this will this will be incredible.
And also we'll have the chance to learn
a lot about the organization of ancient libraries
because this is a unique possibility right now.
Sometimes, in in some cases, there are
some pap papaya that remain glued together, and
this compact
lump, having, like, 6 or 7 screws
attached to each other.
Being able to read the text of those
troll may tell us something about,
books stored on the same shelves. So books
that were stored together in the library And
this is really a unique opportunity we have.
And also, we'll we'll have a greater, larger
amount of... Books, philosophical books from.
So also in terms of
bib physiological features and study of the way
the text was organized and way the titles
were written in the text and the the
columns were written these scripts and everything. It
will,
incredibly enrich our knowledge about ancient books and
ancient libraries.
Oh, And I'm sure. Yeah. To be able
to... Essentially x ray quite literally an entire
agent shelf of books as a 1 of
opportunity.
If I understand only a short section of
taxes has been decipher so far.
What is this initial section they've read so
far say? As far as you couldn't read
it?
So it is probably something like... 5 5
percent of the whole,
the Pierre Paris 4. So 1 of the
claims for I restored in Paris.
And so it it is the final part
of the text. We have the upper portion
of the column of the last 15 columns
of the text. Mh And so we also
have the very
ending of the the work which is very
interesting. And the attacks seem to be...
Seems to deal with,
the perceptions and pleasure, and probably, it is
about how
to achieve knowledge of things,
thanks to sensations and and senses.
There are some examples
on various,
different
fields. So, for example,
the author talks about food when talking about,
about taste.
It talks about music probably when talking about
hearing. So there are different examples from different
fields, but it seems like,
like, the the
the background, so the general context, the general
topic is perception
sensations. Mh.
Yes. So hopefully much more to come, on
that and everything else.
So if the next phases of the challenge
proceed as we hope and all the scrolls
currently
above ground in Naples and Paris, and Oxford
Elsewhere
can be at least partially red.
You know, what we hope to find? Besides,
of course, things like the organization of libraries,
and the practical details of how things were
organized and red.
So we we expect... So when When I
asked this question. Mh. Probably I am a
little bit influenced,
from what I know the library
preserved,
because, of course, I'm probably not expecting
poems from antiquity.
I'm
rather
expecting works of philosophies or philosophical works,
especially related to epic.
So we can we can expect
the missing books, of the works we already
have, but also several
works
written by authors we don't know anything about
So completely new text, also from completely new
authors or text from
written by authors,
we we know, but we didn't have any
text
from. Mh. And also, as I said before,
I am very curious about the lot texts.
Coming from the virtual wrapping.
Because the lot straws were so damaged that
it was so difficult to to read them
and understand out their content
it has been very difficult so far. We
don't know precisely
why. So they may have been stored in
a place in the library
where there were
less protected. Mh. From the eruption, so just
could be 1 of 1 of the causes
for that.
There may be other Lot scrolls in the
library in the in the Villa,
underground. We don't know that. But the fact
is that that in Pap are fewer,
and there are
were worse preserved.
Than the the brief 1. So I I'm
very curious about
to learn
about new techs coming from virtual dropping because
it it will be really the first opportunity
to read a continuous
text from a aladdin scroll in general and
from But also in general. Mh.
Alright.
You mentioned that some stores were found in
carrying cases when they were first digging up
or tunnel into the villa. Do we know
which scrolls were found in those cases or
they all jumbled together?
Not precisely, unfortunately,
because so the... Actually, there are some excavation...
The excavation journals are
offer a lot of information about,
the things that were found them where they
were found. Mh. And sometimes, we have the
measurements of the pap virus and in some
cases, we have details like the particularly long
pap proprietary were founded in this room. Mh.
And so this can be interesting. We know
that Lot Pap papaya were a taller than
greek ones,
at least,
as far as we can say, from the
Pap hiring,
that have been opened
in the from the library,
so this can be interesting thing, but, of
course, the Pap papaya were inventor inventory later,
so we don't precise the which.
We took the pap were were found in
our specific in the place in the Villa.
Mh.
And so it's believed then that in this
the store room where most the pirate found
that they were on shelves. Right? Almost like
a modern library.
Yes.
So the the excavation journals describe
also the furniture. Most and the pieces of
furniture
found in the in the rooms. So in
some cases, you see clearly that there are
older, pieces belonging to cabinets and shelves. Mh.
So it is interesting because this small room
seem to have had previous shelves we can
imagine them in a, in a modern library.
The the the schools were stored horizontally
in in these shelves as And we may
expect that there were a lot of shows
in this library because many of Iv were
found there. Mh.
Right. But they weren't read there as you
said, of course, this was a small room
without windows and they were probably red in
these open spaces.
Yeah. It's very probable.
And that, you know, along with the the
great mystery of Royal And pie are coming
from where they might still be.
Just said we have no idea. You know,
there might be nothing there, There might be
all kinds of things there. But
do you think it's likely that
the...
In our anticipation or expectation of there being
more roles. There will be no excavation at
the villa and the near future is that
a possibility?
There is a possibility
that other pap can be found in the
library.
Because we know that the the Bee love
for sure wasn't... Hasn't been ex activated in
in its entirety.
So there are some part portions of the...
Some regions of the Villa that have never
been activated, never been...
Take to the,
to the, to an open,
area.
But it is also
difficult and of course, I'm not an archaeologist,
so it's difficult for me to
to say what will happen in the in
the future. So because there is the modern
city insisting and it's very close to the,
to the
excavation side to the side of the Villa,
and also, I know that now the general
tendencies is to try to preserve what we
have rather than Mh. Ex
and bring to light more
structures because that that is an area where
you more or less know that if you
estimate, you find something
and so there is a general tendency to
try to maintain and preserve what you have
right now. So I understand that it is
challenging.
It would be great if they could,
ex activate more because we could be able
to see
the the whole side of the the Village
to understand,
what are the part we're still... We are
still missing and also perhaps to find out
scrolls.
Mh.
Right. Well, here here's hoping certainly that they
make that attempt and that the process of
the decipher ring goes as we all... Expected
to. Because, this is a wonderful exciting time
to be involved in anything with a Pirate,
and especially in a in in a special.
So thank you so much, Dr Glad for
taking the time to speak with us about
this project.
I know I'll be looking forward to hearing
much more about it. And so everyone else
I listening to listen to this podcast I
expect.
So so thanks again.
Thank you. Thank you so much.