I studied this really famous Greek scholar,
and he taught it... He was for Germany,
and he taught a lot of the the
best universities of Germany.
He taught it's the big Ivy league schools
here.
And he... 1 day I was chatting with
him, and I asked him what the secret
to his success was he'd published over a
hundred and 10 academic books.
Wow. Maybe a thousand articles,
and he told me the secret his success
was he read 2 academic books a day.
2 2.
Mornings are better with a warm beverage even
for Latter saints. Meat post them, the ideal
coffee alternative and proud sponsor of this weekend
Mormon podcast.
Spotted it on the coffee aisle. It's miss
grocery or at your local nearby store. Can't
locate it. No worries. Order it at post
dot com.
Explore delicious recipes to tailor your post experience.
Start your day off right with post.
Hey, listeners. Welcome to another exciting
Exciting.
Of this week in Mormons.
Melissa and I are here interviewing Brent Schmidt
today,
Brent, do you wanna introduce yourself?
I am a viable nerd. I guess if
you wanted to label someone the nerd it
might be. Yeah. I would label myself that
unless I was single and looking for a
mate, and then I would never label myself
a bible nerd. But other than that, I
think it's a great label. Is a good
label. Brent not single or look.
Yeah. That's try. So going on. Bible nerd.
You can be honest.
I I love
bible languages,
and especially Greek and Latin,
and I get to even teach some Greek
and
also mostly teach bible classes here at By
idaho.
So a lot of people... Actually, none of
our listeners know anything about you. So I
know Brent and I are friends, we've been
in the same war for a long time,
and we served in a bishop together. Yeah.
So I know a lot about Brent. So
Brett, you used to teach at the Catholic
church. Right? I do for about 10 years
when I was
an undergraduate starting, at the university of Utah.
Mh. So I taught at the cathedral of
the Medal and is a medal choir school.
Is that awesome, Melissa? Yeah. That's excellent. Not
just because it's University of Utah. The school
that I never By idaho. But yes.
But, yeah. No. That's super interesting. Yeah. They
do they know you remember the of Jesus
Christ day saints. They did they didn't know
that. I had the sign a waiver saying
that I went talk about
religion with children.
Okay. Okay.
That was part of life planet. I just...
I could say positive things about the cali
tradition, and sometimes I would use Latin
from her Catholic
fathers or other things. As, like, readings in
class or something like, yeah. Her little things.
I love the way you phrase that you
can't talk about religion.
That that was basically teenagers and
yeah. It's so primarily you were teaching language
classes there. Are you teaching by taught? I...
Well, I taught Spanish,
some and and I think well more Latin
probably.
Mh. They taught mostly... I think I... Would
in a normal day, I would teach, like,
4 Latin classes.
There's that fun? Yeah Yeah. When you introduced
yourself, you said that you studied bible languages.
What languages
are those, Greek?
Hebrew? Well, know? Bible languages
are usually
ancient Greek and Hebrew are the 2 most
important.
Okay. And then
there is a translation
into Latin
and the in about 400 ad by Jerome.
And so Latin actually becomes the Latin Vol
gate becomes an important language kind for the
Catholic tradition as well as kind of looking
at how we get the King James Bible
Okay. There are other languages like cop, which
are important for
for early
christianity in Egypt. I've been studying cop,
Oh, why I was
I've been learning cop.
Well. And I also go to the He
class on canvas.
I've been He for a long time and
I'm me a class next semester where we're
bringing all my
advanced, greek and Latin students. Yeah and with
the Hebrew students, and, we're gonna look at
passages in the Dead sea scrolls
and in Hebrew, the master text in Hebrew,
we're gonna look at Arabic text
Same Not a nerd, Melissa. He's such a
nerd. Wow.
Nerd. I told you I want. What is
This is
Now, brent, I play the role of the
dumb 1 on the podcast, mainly because I
am.
But, So I have this question. When I'm
reading in the book of Mormon, it talks
about the the Egyptian of their fathers. How
is Egyptian language that plays into these languages
you're talking about?
Again, dumb it down for me. Isn't cop
real... Isn't cop Egyptian? Well, so cop is
a later... It's like the latest stage of
ancient Egyptian.
Okay. Greeks later, Conquer Egypt,
and you have the Bat
who
are gonna
just be Greek. And then this becomes a
a language that
is probably 80 percent egyptian mixed with 20
percent Greek and a mostly Greek Alphabet.
Yeah. And so whenever regret asking that question,
Melissa? No. The in the book of worm,
I think there's some debate on what maybe
a Egyptian might be in the time of
Lehigh.
Okay. And so it would probably be late,
probably, like, very late egyptian,
and I'm not an Egypt dermatologist really.
Yeah. Just he's just starting to learn cop.
You that's a good question
about reformed
the I know that they found some techs
that are
our half egyptian half, Hebrew
Yeah and other thing. So I'm not sure
what that might mean in that period.
So good. Well, they're all related languages too.
They're... They come from...
There's semitic languages, So
Egyptian kind of an a semitic...
Submit comes from this idea of Sham which
is the name.
And and so you have Arabic and and
Aca and Hebrew,
and they're all... They all have a lot
of the same roots.
When you on pretty far. Kinda like Spanish
and Italian. Yeah. Exactly. Like that Portuguese. You
can... If you know Spanish,
you can understand quite a bit of Portuguese.
Or if you know Ukrainian, you can understand
quite as a Russian. Yep. God like that.
Right? With with
probably with Hebrew and and Egyptian and with
the the better and arab people
at the time. So sometimes Brent will substitute
in the gospel doctrine in class. And I
remember this 1 time we're studying in the
bible. And he's like reading along and he's
like, actually, this word should be better translated
as sex slave
or something like that I was like, yeah.
Britain knows all of the good words in
the bible. Yeah
partly when I was in graduate school.
A lot of my professors were were not
religious, and they like to focus on some
of the
the... We we might say
Creek who who have a lack of,
church standards.
Mh. Nice. I'm trying. We might just say
call them, like, wicked? W Wicked Greet. Maintenance.
And then there's some really good greeks. And
anyway you went, I just teach the Good
Creek. I we're
Green play
Aristotle. Yeah. Aristotle,
the the the stuff that makes us wanna
be good and be good boys and girls,
and follow of the 13 third faith.
Right
You yeah. You don't talk about the other
stuff at happened. But I... Yeah. I graduate
school a lot of my professors like to
wall in it, and I really didn't.
Mh But, yeah, there's kind of a there's
really
high moral type greeks, and then...
Greeks who just believe in the Yellow culture,
you know, you only live once. Mh yeah.
And but kind within moderation though is have
a hurricane idea that you wanna
have fun, but but without the Las Vegas
hangover.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Do Okay. So so,
Melissa, I don't know if you remember this,
but president Nelson
gave a talk.
This would be, like, 3 or 4 years
ago. And he talks about this word that
means covenant,
and then. They use this word a lot
in general conference talks and stuff to talk
about covenant relationships and things like that. You
need word like he said. Yeah. Yeah. He.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Brent has 2
books that I really, really like. Maybe he
has more than this. He has, too. And
he does something really similar. 1 is with
the word for faith. Alright? Yeah. And the
other is with the word for charity. But
Charity. Grace. Yeah. Yeah. Great. It 3 too,
though. Yeah. It's Car. But... So real we're
charity from. So real fast tell us about
the faith word, And Have a brief summary
of that book because I think it's simple.
I then we'll the other 1 too. Okay.
So the the Facebook... By the way, don't
make any money from these books.
Okay. Right you. But is... In in typical
By Idaho professor style. Yeah. Yeah. I just...
I know... And and 1 of my friends
actually had to pit down a lot of
money just so that By
studies would publish it just because they had,
I think... Lots of source checkers. I think
there's over
2500 footnotes.
Yeah. And and Lots ancient art and they
had to get permission from
the At athena anti group to publish. And
so just lots of resources went into it
and so
I he's not selling the book. He's not
doing priest graph right
this I... Totally greens I I even talked
about is. I think it's the idea
and the idea and the the information weren't
just to get out there. I? Agree. I'm
glad you're talking about it because I'm gonna
quote you in Sunday school class did not
give you credit and act... Like it was
my original idea. So please. That's why.
Okay.
And so anyway, a lot of people think...
Like outside the church think that faith is
a feeling or an emotion.
And and today, a lot of times a
faith is a religious tradition. So someone belongs
to the muslim
faith or the catholic faith.
So faith is is a very passive idea
in our our world.
And I just noticed by studying in Greek
and in graduate school just to pass my
Phd exams, I had to read pretty much
everything in Ancient Greek, and be able to
translate anything at sight without a dictionary. Wow.
And so I kind of got the idea.
I... When I read Greek or Latin, Kind
of read it
probably,
like, maybe even like an educated ancient person
might because I just read all the alerts,
and I kinda know
kind of their mindset in general.
And I noticed,
you know, several years ago that
that... There's nothing passive actually about faith and
and Paul's time or before or Paul's time
in Ancient Greek. So Paul Paul is writing
in ancient Greek to Gentile towels in Rome
and Galatians
And I'm working on a commentary for the
By new test of a commentary series where
I make my own translation.
And then I have a a commentary on
what each verse means and why I'm translating
it this way. Oh, I'm excited about yet.
That. Yeah. And So I am. I do.
I read books like that actually. It's good...
It's it's probably... I don't know how the
galatians 1. And I'm working with Ava... Ave
Shannon who is a Hebrew.
Professor at By pro. Mh.
So he's doing a lot of the hebrew
work because
a lot of the issues he's addressing relates
to the Lob Moses it policy dressing to
the galatians, and I'm working on more of
the Greeks side, but I made the translation.
And we're supposed to have this by depressed
by this month, but we're still working on
it. But I'm the the the author of
the Romans volume, which is about... It'll be
about maybe 800 pages.
Wow. Based when it comes out. But it
has. I won't read that. Just kidding. I
didn't... Yeah. It's very I heard 800 pages.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's very early. And it's
probably more of a reference but but... Okay.
Anyway, I translate
Romans
according to how maybe a first century
Roman actually might
understand the text. Is we're kinda of my
goal.
And so
Paul talks a lot about this word,
This
so we get the word in English epi,
which is basically the study of how you
know what you know. Mh.
And so in the ancient world, knowing things
actually takes effort. It's not a passive thing.
And so
this word pissed
in plato
speeches of,
socrates,
you start out... Everybody has an opinion, you
wanna get above that level, and so that's
called Pest.
And then when you really have...
When you really
no. At a really high level. That's called
a histamine, but it has that same root
in it.
And so
anyway, if you start to think about it,
why would Paul
change the meaning of these greek words that
have met what they've meant for... Hundreds of
years to gentile,
which is actually
what you kinda would have to think if
you are interpreting the bible through protestant lenses.
Right? Or
evangelical kind of lens. So just to just
interrupt... So this word Pissed us is actually
what Paul uses when he meets faith, Yeah.
This is what... Yeah. When he's talking about
faith, he's using this word pissed this. So
if you're,
Gentile could say, oh, he's talking about...
Understanding and trust.
Right? And so...
And and that, actually, when you really understand
things,
either, people or or knowledge,
abstract things, then you have usually some kind
of relationship,
a covenant kind of relationship.
And and, usually, the Greeks also use it
in terms of,
truth,
So
so if we're... If you were on a
understand truth or some work that you have
to do to get there. And it it
parallels really well, the the hebrew.
Stem is Ama oman,
which is,
continental trust,
or faithful faithfulness,
and we get the word a amen,
in English,
comes from actually a hebrew 7 that means,
like,
I understand and I,
I'm gonna be faithful to this idea.
So so Aim is actually a a covenant
word.
Oh,
So when my children are saying prayers, and
I disagree who they say. I should not
say amen. At the end. Yeah. You shouldn't
say man. Right. And so He He and...
So He is sometimes translated
or used with...
Sometimes it's used with Ama oman or stems
of that.
So
so you have, like, faithfulness and truth Ami.
Usually, if you set a hebrew, they're kinda
paired together. Mh.
And and so...
So so said actually He has... Kind of
links to both faith and grace actually, But
it's a continental
idea in Hebrew.
So this idea of, like, faith and works
You're saying that that word was always associated
with works. Yeah. There's no dichotomy actually of
between faith and works. So then
is James using when he says pay that
works is dead. Well,
they're they're talking about works of the the
law of Moses, not like, not like Christian
actions, where they're talking about
fulfilling different... Different details of the Mosaic Law
is actually what he's referring to. So when
he saying faith versus works, he's saying
faith, which already involved some kind of work
or and then... Yeah. And pay the law
Moses. Yeah. Versus the law versus fulfilling every
detail the law moses.
And in my roman commentary, I'm arguing going
that, it's faithfulness within the new covenant of
Jesus versus the covenant of the Law Moses.
Wow. And in acts chapter 15,
the disciples do agree that we're gonna keep
a few things of the Lot Moses, like,
we're gonna keep the lot of chassis, we're
not gonna
eat word meat sacrificed to pagan and aisle
and things like that. But for the most
part, faithfulness is now very different within
this new covenant.
And then sop pissed, or this idea of
faith is actually used as a shorthand.
A lot of times for
the word covenant. And there's an Oxford scholar.
Her name is Teresa Morgan,
and she writes about what faith meant in
a times. And
this book came out in 2015,
And so she talks a lot about how
but, Christians would never understood faith is, like,
an emotion or a feeling.
Which saves people automatically, which is how smartly
luther through a kelvin use it. Mh. But
the faith is actually when we understand things
so we're gonna act as certain. So it
actually involves action. Mh. And so
my book shows
what an ancient person would probably understand by
Paul's Writings and other chest ryan's. Mh And
then I look about a look at why
faith goes off the rails.
And so t, what we call the apostasy
in the third century.
Because they're so much find about what Christians
believe in what the right understanding is, he
says that there's 2 types of faith. So
he helps... It's called the rule of faith,
which later becomes
a part of Catholic
theology.
The real faith is conformity to what the
search is teaching or having... Or the means
by which you have faith. So in Latin
it's
quiet... Fide quiet creditor or Fide quad credit
tour her, Mh. Which is so
I basically have to live and conforming later
to Cr if I agree with these certain
creed about Who god is,
and
other things the Catholic church is teaching.
Then I have faith. And if I don't,
then I'm a here. A here
and Greek High is where you you've taken
something that's true,
and you've twisted it a little bit.
And so in the in the middle ages
to...
And I go through in this book, and
I just show... You know, what did Thomas
a klein or the, you know, different figures.
And then Luther also and following August augustine,
he says that faith,
he has a... He he says that fate
is just when you have an emotional experience
that immediately saves you.
So that's where. So so Luther is gonna
run with this us and call it,
with Augustine. It's called
Salvation by faith alone, it's called Sol fide.
And so
if you look at both Catholic and protestant
theology, they they have different ideas of
of salvation just by faith alone.
And then 1 thing I noticed too when
I was reading
in the
experiences that Chills Smith
describes in his
first vision account that we have in our
scriptures, the 18 38 account. He talks about
how people in his family belong to the
presbyterian faith. Yeah. So he's actually using the
terms like people used in the
nineteenth century.
But then then he actually looks at James,
and he acts... Actually exercises faith in a
very ancient way, which is you try to
understand things.
And then you take it to God, and
you try to gain understanding from
from God through action. Yeah. Okay. And and
then I demonstrate out the book of mormon
and the doctor covenants have a very ancient
active idea
of
understanding knowledge which leads to covenants.
Oh, So kind of, like the gospel restore,
this point of precious truth.
And covenants that
Ne learns from the angel in first
13 have been lost.
So it it does seem like there was
this this kind of 1 direction of faith
that was like almost obedience. Right?
Action and obedience.
Yeah. And then 1 that was, like, if
you just believe you're saved. Right? Yeah. And
when you were talking about it like that,
it did relate a lot to me to
the 2 different ways that we look at
Grace. Right? Yeah. 1 grace is based on
action, doing the right things.
And 1 grace is just you know, the
savior has grace and he covers everything
if you believe in him. So is that?
Related in the same way? Yeah. Kind of,
I would argue that
that faith is a relational concept. So Oh.
Is I think it even makes it easier
when we know that God is loving and
has a body
and is physical,
not not some
force or something. I think also, it may,
you know, the idea of being faithful within
a covenant
makes more sense. So Okay. Be is relational.
Another thing is grace is another relational concept.
And and faith and grace actually are connected
in some ways, but
a lot of churches
protestant and then more August type Catholic in
the West, not not as much in the
Eastern Orthodox Church like Russian Orthodox,
but they would say that
the faith, the the feeling of faith is
just a gift, and so you're automatically safe.
Ancient, though, if you look at what,
what Grace is. The the word that Paul
uses in Greek is Chorus. Chorus is it's
kind of a gut role.
Cara. Yeah. And I don't try... I don't
wanna spit on people. So
because I don't say it. But that's actually
probably how you say it. But but Grace,
or chorus is a as a gift.
And ancient, they they have these very
strat fight societies.
And so usually,
when people
give gifts to other people, they wanna have
a a
relationship with them. Part of it's is probably
survival, but usually, have selling up above someone
else is called vertical reciprocity and sociology.
So the the person below who's getting the
guess, they can't really pay back the person
above them. So if you were to think
of, like, a king giving gifts to a
common.
The king can't
really be repaid by the common,
but the common common is supposed to have
a relationship with a give, and
and do whatever
expectations maybe that the the that he might
be able to
reciprocate with the king. And then the king
Okay. Ancient with reciprocate and give more gifts
to the common, and then
eventually, this is also how people become like
people in anti antiquity.
And so in my my book it's called
relational grace.
There are a lot of techs about how
Grace is actually
a way for people to become, like, or
how are people that become like other people
through relationships and covenants and gift giving.
This sounds very similar to
King Benjamin
having this stage in the book of mormon.
Right? Or he's like, you could work all
your day and night and you could never
repay and he never click can do. He's
still all
he gives you more. Right. So, yeah, That
makes that makes sense in that context. So
that's the... So that's the inside of Grace.
But most people
don't realize there's 2 sides of gray. So
Okay. A lot of people just think that
that Grace is a 1 directional freebie.
So just God gives you all kinds of
things, and you don't have to do anything.
U.
There are people like I I've met in
the church to think that they can.
They can just work to... Their way to
heaven, they don't really need God's gifts or
Jesus?
Yes. And both of those would be wrong.
They both wrong. I've been both of those
people in my life though. Right? Like, we
all have situations where that's our first instinct
is 1 of those things.
So going back to the grace, like angel,
if I'm thinking of a king and a
comb. Yeah. What's the motivation for the king
to give something to the common.
The K wants glory, the king needs supporters,
the king needs help
To help build the king... His kingdom. And
then what happens if the common
receives the gift of grace, but does not
fulfill their obligations. Well, if he if he
doesn't receive the gift, And there's actually some
information about this in doctrine and covenants where
the lord gives things to people, but they
don't do anything with it. But if the
comment doesn't do anything with it, then the
team's is not gonna give any more gifts.
U. And they're not gonna have a relationship.
U. So the king is, like, but s
something on the common,
out of goodwill yeah or a hope to
go bull. And probably love too. I think
that the king just probably loves his people
wants those people to be prosperous.
And then to the extent that the comment
fulfill that
relationship. Yep. Then the comment gets more and
more more and more. Yeah. And eventually, the
the the comment could be collecting king. In
in pulse time, they... In the east, there
are greek kings to do this, but
in the roman system, it's called the client
patron relationship. So the patron gives things to
the clients,
the clients are supposed to res reciprocate in
some way.
And usually, the person who has the most
clients becomes the
the consul or basically the emperor or the
most powerful person in politics. So this is
even how the mafia works today. Yeah. Get
italy or lots of places. Right? It's kinda
weird. Right? Because we live in a democratic
society,
almost everything we look at as a democracy.
So we always think of these
relationships from our context.
But if you lived in a more monarch
society or society that did things differently, than
this concept of grace wouldn't you may be
hard to understand. No. It's super easy. And
I think most
most of the world still lives this way.
Except for maybe the west.
U. Yeah. That's true. It's true It's all
reciprocity between
higher hire people and lower people. And that's
how how society ticks and and how things
get done. Yeah. Right. So from my political
science perspective, I say, okay. Like, we are
presidential candidates who will to win office, and
there's like higher power that's giving money to
us to help us run for office
in order to get great. Maybe it's a
similar kind of Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's... And
and so whoever has the most,
supporters. Mh. And and resources are involved in
that. Right? Yeah. We'll we'll win. But so
I think they're still reciprocity to certain degree.
I think it it kinda santa claus moves
away totally from from,
this idea of Reciprocity you know it. And
Martin Luther kinda starts the idea of
altruistic gifts that they're... And post
is is the idea that if you do
receive a gift, you don't have to
reciprocate it. Like, a perfect gift would never
be reciprocate. Mh. But would never understand just
that way.
And and so
there's a guy named,
John Barclay who basically agrees with my position
about Grace, but he's saying, well, maybe in
the present world, it's okay for us to
to perfect guess why they don't have to
be returned with God Now.
But but I... Ancient people would never understand
things. And so that's not how I'm translating
roman or circulation according to how the King
James translators
where they've tried to get rid of the
reciprocal nuances of grace and faith.
So so basically,
if if the comment does or would say
the client
does decide he's gonna reciprocate
that he's gonna get more gifts,
and then he'll have a stronger relationship with
the patron. And then the patron will give
more gifts. So I think in the gospel,
and I've written some... So it's in my
book and and some other articles I published,
but in section 93,
we learned that Jesus became like Heavenly father
Grace for Grace. So I think Is that
heavenly father gave Gifts to Jesus,
he was thankful
He reciprocate through obedience,
then God gave him other gifts, and the
Gospel call probably gifts of the spirit.
The holy ghost is a gift. Right?
And it's at ordinance too. But the holy
Ghost gift special other gifts that will sync,
especially the gift of Surety,
and then there are other gifts like, the
endowment temple
other covenants
that
what it will enable people through the Holy
Ghost to become like, heavenly my father. Yeah.
And and so
so I... In a lot of ways, I
think prophets have used Chris
making can a shorthand of, like, enabling power,
which is which is what it does. Grace
though itself is actually just a reciprocal gift.
But and it it establishes Continental avant. So
usually, when I'm when I've... And my con
translation of Romans,
Whenever I see Grace, I translate as a
cog bond.
Okay. So He said, the word He is
a cog faithfulness.
And and so
so I think Hess describes the whole process,
probably of,
you're becoming faithful.
Mh. And and so sometimes,
the word,
hen
is the hebrew word Can is translated as
Chorus,
sometimes they use other
terminology.
Headset said, I think is just a bigger
concept than just gift giving or
or, faithfulness. It's... I think bigger than that
in hebrew.
That's.
So this is great because this really shifts
my perspective on grace in the sense that,
you know, the whole
dichotomy between grace and works and how much
is what?
It makes more sense to me that the
works is really just the
of the gift. Right? Yeah. They're not really
at opposed each other They're part.
They work together. Yeah. Actually are the same
concept really. Yeah. And they're part of building
that relationship, I guess is how you would
say it? Yeah.
And then I think look Mormon nails that
were,
you know, of course Joel Smith is in
a very protestant world where Grace is just
a freebie.
That, oh, I got Grace now I'm saved,
and I don't to do anything. I have
to be a cycle, but it says that
that we
we
hopefully are gonna... As we receive grace,
we're saved by grace after all we can
do. So
So we we get the grace, but we
are responsible to do things. Mh.
But it's the same process. It's just 1
process. Yeah. Yeah. It also makes me think
about the parable of the talents,
and
maybe that that's a story of grace. I've
never looked at that as a... Yes. I
think a lot of the terrible are are
have this idea of reciprocity.
You know, there are
are 10:10
le. That are healed and only 1 comes
back to say,
thank you. I mean, they can't really repay
Jesus for healing them, but they can serve
him and be loyal
and
demonstrate that vocal to maybe help other be...
Others become faithful.
And of first, this guy was a Samaritan
which the the Jews would never have a
relationship with, but now the Sum samaritan has
a relationship with Jesus,
and the Jewish people don't. They're and... And
they're not gonna have the... Because they... They're
not willing to reciprocate.
Mh. The the gifts.
So there's another... In your book on faith.
Yep There's the 1 of my favorite sections
as you go through all of these mosaic.
Yeah. You guys are all of us are.
Yeah. And I don't think any,
Teresa Morgan has a little bit about this
book, but I don't think any
protestants Catholics or even lottery saints of connected
faith with handshakes or.
He goes. He goes, like, all the way
back in her time and looks at all
of the art from the ancient world and
shows that when you're, the sign of faith
is a right hat class. Yeah. Yeah Wow.
Yeah. So why why is that? What is
that? What's going on there? So ancient,
when you when you shake someone's head, and
there's lots of things in Hebrew and
As well. It's not really my specialty.
And probably the Greeks and Romans maybe I've
gotten this back, you know, from really early
cultures, but
If you... When, when you shake someone's had,
they can't have anything in their hand. They
can't have a weapon to hurt you. Mh.
Okay. Right. So it's showing that people are
unarmed,
and that they have every intention of being
faithful.
So Roman generals on a battlefield would send
literally, a a hand to another person
to to make a peace treaty. Really, have
a g of a hand,
There's all... And that's actually the way that
that a person becomes faithful is when they
when they shake someone's right hand. And And
it's in the great culture as well. And
so in my book, I have all these
these
epi etfs or or sculptures of hands,
Yeah. And then the early Christians also use
it as a way to show that people
are faithful to god or or when they're
getting married within a marriage covenant. So...
Okay. 1 of the earliest churches in Italy,
Santa maria.
You have the marriage of Moses to Sephora
and they're shaking right hands.
With Jet who is a symbol of the
Mel kiss priest. Mh.
And you... There's... The 1 that I remember
is there's a man who's...
Wife is dead or something is bringing her
from the gray? Yeah. So there is a
a Christian early Christian cat. A lot of
people debate what type what flavor of christianity.
But basically, his his wife has passed away,
and she is entering the heavenly banquet,
and he grabs her by the right hand
through the veil and pulls her through and
he's dressed in
special clothing that also symbolizes covenants. I probably
shouldn't talk too much about this, but. I
think
your because... Yeah. It's... You can just look
at the pictures. Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah.
And... On when... What is this date to?
It dates to the fourth century.
Yeah. Wow. I with 1 of the earliest
Kris, you know, really
full Christian artwork works that we have from
Italy.
And then in some of the churches in
Raven,
you have also
the hand of God
on pillars.
And it seems that the byzantines when they
recon conquer Raven,
they they have the ceremony where God will
pull you through the veil.
And so if you look at the the
earliest,
coin of
when they try to portray constantine as a
Christian.
And I I have this coin. It's also...
There's some pictures in the book, But constantine
when he dies is considered a good christian
because he gets pulled by the right hand
of god through the veil.
Yeah. And then a lot of a lot
of early Krishna will have the right hand
of God coming through the veil. And sometimes
the right hand of guy will be holding
a crown.
Showing that the person as the person goes
through available is gonna become a king
or a queen. And so you'll have a
hand, like, covering over the person with a
a crown. And so I collect ancient Roman
coins. I I studied New hispanics
in graduate school, but
I spent probably 800 dollars to get an
arcadia coin as a Christian Emperor, and then
you have the right hand of God coming
down for the veil with that. A.
It's not in the... This 1 doesn't in
the book.
I'm giving us
a paper at the temple conference
that's coming up. Wow, and I think it's
in October, but... I'm gonna show a lot
more pictures that aren't in the book of
coins.
And another... There's a lot of early Christian
artwork where Jesus gets pulled by the right
hand of God through the veil.
This is where he doesn't make any money
off the book. Yeah. Because he has to
pay royalty. You just saw home
artwork and it's such a pain to published
stuff like this. Right? So Yeah. That's very
cool. I'm sure about money is another bad
thing.
Yeah. Also very By. Idaho professor answer.
Yeah. I know I... I've never cared very
much about money. That's a bad thing. My
wife doesn't like that.
So I I went to the punch up
in Vegas and got myself a widow, my
Yeah. And I was so excited. I was
like, I've got this ancient coin, a widow
mite, but now I realized Brent has way
better coins. Wow.
When I was in Graduate school, I had
the catalog the
nicest, the best roman coin collection in North
America. Wow. So this spec donated
think he's about 50000000 dollar Roman coin collection
to the university of Colorado on Boulder.
And so it has every issue of every
grown and gold, silver and bronze and almost
perfect.
Wow And so some other graduate since we
catalog the collection. And so
I I do have a a friend who
who collects
ancient coins and and got a lot of
coins from this Smithsonian, and 1 of the
the collector for this smithsonian
passed away and from his widow and daughter
he get... He's gotten all these coins and
and so
he's been selling to me very very nicely
at his cost.
Have quite the collection. Actually, how I got
a lot of these coins with the handshakes.
But I noticed when I was looking
and catalog this wrong quick collection that when
they become Christian, they... Some some of the
coins will have these right... These hand class.
But the Romans did it even before the
Christians, there's a
There's a picture of a
cy in the book where the emperor,
Had and then anton Pious
through these 2 roman emperors
they're actually
shaking hands with the army
to show they have a good covenant
relationship with the army, and then when they
get married, when romans get married, they also
have right hand class. And my friend brother
John Welch, goes by Jack,
he let... He let me use some pictures
of roman wedding rings,
And they have hand class and other things
on too. Wow And they're roman seals that
have the hand class that that represents faith
and so.
I probably shouldn't talk about how this is
related to the temple. But if you're... No,
but I think it's probably okay to say
that probably Joseph Smith didn't have this information.
Yeah. And a lot of people will say,
well, he got it from the Mason. And
if you look at it, well,
this is just everywhere all over the ancient
world and and Mason got it from the
ancient world in. Mh.
I I believe it was restored with the
authority to do it. But... Yeah. Right. So,
Melissa, there's questions I have for Brent about
his life because he's just a fascinating person.
Yeah. But before we move on, then anything
else Wanna hear about those
No. But I do have a question that's
not about his life. Okay. So about... I
don't know. A couple years ago, you got
me started on this app, the blue letter
bible app. Yeah. And I can open it
up and pick any different translation of the
Bible and compare it side by side to
the King James version.
And I've been loving that, especially when we
were income follow me in, like, the Bible
years.
What do you think about those kinds of
tools? Do you think
like, do you think they... I don't know
Like, sometimes I read 1 of the translations,
and I'm, like, I could have written this.
Anybody could come up with this language?
But at the same time, it's helpful. So
I'm just wondering your viewpoint on that. Well,
yeah. I am not a fan of it
but there's a couple of reasons. I'll try
to be brief.
So
Anyway,
I was I was basically trained in Greek
and Latin by reading what Greek and Latin
man at at Pulse time, and usually, the
the protestant dictionaries, that the blue letter bible
uses.
They're basically what the the tradition of the
church is interpreted the words to being over
a couple thousand years, not what the words
actually met in in Paul's time. So the
dictionary I like to use is the Oxford
The Oxford lexicon.
It's called the little little Scott and Jones.
And in my office, it's about this thick
it weighs about 15 pounds, but it's this
enormous
that they started to put together in the
nineteenth century. But it just has every use
of every word in
in all of Greek literature or lot literature
Okay. Instead of instead of what Martin Luther
thought it meant or what August augustine thought
it meant, then that becomes part of this
protestant greek. Or latin dictionary. So when we
when we study the Bible, I would always
open up the new living
state translation. U. Yeah. Because it's so easy
to read. Yeah. And my daughter fresh off
her mission would get Mad. And she's, like,
you should always believe that Joseph swift translation
over that. And also because she served in
Oklahoma, so there were a lot of evangelical
around. Right. She hated that translation. Do you
hate that translation too? I actually think that
that people should make their own translations. And
so... Oh, so for this commentary, I've I've
made my own translation. Mh. And I can't
I can't do that. I helped edit all
the other ones. I teach teach Greek. I'm
teaching Group 1 next to. Oh we should
all learn. Yeah. So Mh So I think
we should all learn Greek and learn Great
from the time of fall and then just
rein what although the... Especially the doctor words.
I think most of the words like
This guy went to a a church or
something. The... Most of the stories, I think
the groot is fine. But I think whenever
there's a doctor. Oh, okay.
Doctor maybe
significant passage.
I think it's always important to look at
what the greek words being and Paul's time
not what.
The...
These these
these protestant
translators later want the words to mean to
fit with Luther or or August augustine. But,
like, for me, I cannot understand old English.
Like, I read Isaiah in old English, and
then I read it in the new living
standard, and I'm like, oh, I get that.
And then I say, This is what it
means and my wife's, like, of course, that's
what It means. It says that yeah, the
king James Brown. Right. It didn't make any
sense to me. So you're okay if I
do that. If III think if there's no
big doctor
issues. Right for the verse, probably,
most translations are just fine. Okay. But but
whenever we get into words, like, the nature...
What the nature of god is or grace
or faith or
or Yeah. There's there's other things. We should
be caught. Yeah. Cautious. I think whenever, especially
with the nature of God, I think that's
another area
where
the
where our Jewish friends and our Christian friends
have decided that God hasn't have a audience
and so they've tried to interpret Hebrew.
They tried to take out all the morph
from the x what to which you're actually
there.
So so, anyway, on uncertain words,
in the book of mormon says that the
the Bible when it was, you know, when
it first came out and this is in
first by 13,
had the fullness of the gospel, but plaintiff
precious trees and covenants were removed. Mh. So
I think, also, any, like, priest language of
covenants, I'm always
skeptical about how they translate things and... Whenever
I look at the Greeks, sometimes I find
things that are I really surprised about.
Okay. Yeah. That was a... That was a
good answer. I appreciate that. Yeah. So, Melissa,
you probably noticed that Brent brought this book
in with him. U. Did you know that
Brent reads
1 book every single day. Hey.
I've been doing that during this summer. I'm
a library. And. So yeah. Stuff. So I...
We probably don't read the same books. But
during the summer, that's my goal too, but
it's so hard. Isn't it hard? It's hard
lot. Yeah. I I have to read all
all day long some days.
I read them when I'm at church a
lot of times.
Mattis, you me reed...
Partly partly just so I don't... You know,
yell at people for... When I see Brent
Reading in church, I sit down and I
say, Let's talk about Jesus.
Right.
I can imagine Sunday school could be frustrating.
And can't... It's just awkward sometimes...
Yeah.
So so how do you decide what you're
gonna read every day? I mean, that's a
lot of an information to cover? 1 a
day. That's a lot. Yeah. I1A day. Partly,
a lot of it has to with what
projects I'm working on. Mh. And I actually
don't like publishing books on on Grace or
faith. It's just no 1 is doing that.
Right. And I think somebody needs I don't
know. I feel like somebody has to do
it.
Honestly, I'd rather not translate Romans and galatians,
but but no 1 in promo accepted
that did. And so
I've had to read hundreds of books on
galatians enrollments just for this commentary. So I
have big stacks of books at my house.
Sometimes I just like to read just what
a, you know, Brandon and Sanders. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. And all not that Usually,
1 and those in a day, though.
Oh,
prep is not read fiction. I'm not too
long whole cortisol also says that fiction is
better than the on fiction because Yeah. You
have to understand human in nature better
he's the right fiction. Right? Yeah. And think
of this, and, think of the hundreds of
books he's read. He's never read my book
either. Vanessa. 0II haven't it either. Yeah. I
thought he could read it in a day
though. I don't. Did you give me your
much? Mona no. It's... I gave it to
Melissa, and she doesn't even keep it on
her books shall No. I keep it on
my books shelf. It's just on the part
of the books shelf that's covered with a
cupboard door. It's double that.
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a tough read. It's
a nice a pickle book, But I'll I'll
tell you the story. I I had this
I I studied this really famous greek scholar,
and he taught it... He was for Germany,
and he taught a lot of the the
best universities of Germany.
He taught it's the big Ivy league schools
here.
And he... 1 day I was chatting with
him, and I asked him what the secret...
To his success was had published over a
hundred and 10 academic books.
Wow. Maybe a thousand articles.
And he told me the secret his success
was he read 2 academic books a day.
220.
And and so this was probably
20 years ago, but I decided...
I don't think I I don't think my
wife would also put up with 2. But
I about maybe 1.
And I and I... So I started reading
1 a day. This is maybe 20 years
ago. Mh.
I've pretty much... Sometimes I've read even 2
books a today day occasionally but So. Are
you reading in other languages?
Yeah. Usually, the books I read, they have,
yeah,
other languages and footnotes or things. German, Especially,
French,
So when you said you were a bible
nerd, what you really meant is you're just
a nerd? I'm nerd. Yeah.
That's that's Friday.
Well, there's a bible stay away. Right?
There's another thing about Brent that I think
will lead to an interesting discussion. So your
wife is not from the United States. Where
she from. My wife is from Chile. Oh.
And and senior you're born in Spanish. Yeah.
We speak Spanish at home and Awesome. Before
we, we used to go to a
a Spanish word
where I was 1 of the very few
g.
Yeah. And and I was also the work
clerk. And so a lot of my best
friends actually only speaks Spanish.
Yeah. And and I've traveled... I do a
lot of world travel as well, And
They could've been over a hundred countries. You're.
You can take a tour of the new
world or the old world. The whatever world
jerusalem.
With He does those. Yeah. I I I've
done some.
I've... Yeah. I love Charlie around Europe.
I always try to speak whatever language of
the country I'm at
I lived in Germany for a while,
and I...
My French is getting better. I've gone through
the whole duo lingo french program. Wow. Yeah.
And. Because you had time went with the
reading a book a day and everything.
To learn another language to learn other language.
Yeah. I I tinker around with lots of
languages and European linguistics. And I think I'm...
Maybe I'll try Russian or maybe you can
help with Russia. So for sure, I'll be
happy to do that. Right. So the question
I have for you about this, brent is
recently, the church announced that they were creating
the first ever
Spanish state. In the United States. Oh, interesting.
Did you hear about this? I didn't hear
this. But I've I've gone to Spanish words
a lot of my life So... Yeah. So
I wanted to know what your thoughts are
about this that the churches is creating a
Spanish only stake. It's in Utah Right in
Melissa up? It's it's in the Salt Lake
area. So it's gonna be 1 steak with
a bunch of... Spanish speaking words
from basically the Valley, but now they're gonna
have their own stake presidency
that's pulling from those words. Yeah. So most
of our listeners have never had any experiences
in a language ward or something like that.
Like, what's it like being in a Spanish
ward in Utah.
And then what does it what like, what
does it mean that there's a stake now.
So I I used to go to this
latent in Spanish word which took in the
entire? Yeah see of, language, which actually has
gotten pretty big, Maybe 80000 people.
But the only thing when yoda Spanish for
is that the high council will never speak
Spanish,
And and so half the mean are just
people from the stake who have no clue
about Spanish. And then for maybe the worst
thing I've ever seen is I played once
in a church basketball game.
It was
our Spanish word against
these English words. We were very competitive.
And
I'm actually really tall. I'm I'm about 6
foot 5.
And and actually, we would beat the English
words.
And 1 time, I don't know. There there
were actually fist fights and things. And I
I just... I I wonder if there'd be
less fist fighting between, like,
Spanish word plays the Spanish or something like
that. Yeah.
Well, so your wife because she's a foreigner
living in Utah and Idaho. Does she feel
more at home in a Spanish speaking war?
Well,
there are things we like about Spanish words
and there are things we don't like.
But,
1 of the things she doesn't like is,
I'll I'll I'll I'll just... Because she's suspect.
I think I'll just quote her, but she
doesn't like how a lot of the activities
don't start on time. The
the Latin Americans have a very
panic lacks idea of time.
I it didn't come for me. This is
I'm quoting my wife. But yeah.
That's fairly politically correct. Right?
But, Spanish people actually have way better church
activities, and they actually more fun. They're fun
and they know how to socialize culturally lot
better. Mh.
And
So,
like, if you go to a a church
activity, it's... Even though it might start an
hour and a half late. It's probably gonna
be really fun. Wow. And so halfway. And
and and it might go into 2 in
the morning or. I mean, And a think
president mad at them. So I was I
was wondering maybe if thinking now. Maybe if
you have a a Spanish
speaking stake president, they might be a little
looser on. Some activities.
Sure think. At least more understanding of the
culture behind everything. I think I think it's
important to have that. Yeah. Yeah. So I
think they're really fun, Really nice people.
III don't know. I think
I don't know how to explain it.
Usually, there are a lot more
needs also. Oh, yeah. Like,
yeah. There's are partners. Lot very needy people.
Yeah. And maybe there's some maybe good things
about having a Spanish branch with an English
day because there might be more fast offering
resources. Yeah. But but maybe
I don't know. Maybe that have... With the
state, maybe they gonna have more resources available.
But in it, like in the Spanish word,
we would have lots and lots of baptism
all the time. Yeah. So I I that's.
1 1 year I think we had 50
baptism just in this Spanish word in like
Utah. Wow.
You know? Well, I'm thinking like, there are
some things like church discipline things. There there's
things where Yeah the stake high Counsel.
Is is interacting with an individual member. Right.
And so it probably would be hard, especially
if you're the member, and your stake high
counsel is all people who don't speak your
language. Right. Don't understand what's going on in.
Yeah. The the bad thing is I think
though...
I think it is good for Latin Americans
to
to not try to make their own country
within a country. Mh. Which is my... With
something my wife doesn't like. She thinks that
his fact people should and integrate themselves into
the fabric of the United States. Yeah. We're
we're a lot of the people in the
Spanish word because they... There's... They go to
church in Spanish. They watch Tv spanish. They
do everything. Work in Spanish. So they never
bothered to learn English. Mh. A lot of
the people we were friends... Didn't speak word.
I never even heard speak English. Mh. And
they live in United states, like, 20 or
30 years, which is really weird. And it's
harder to feel a part of the broader
community. Yeah If, like... Yeah. Mh So that's
true. So maybe that's a downside of Spanish
works, but...
Yeah. Anyway.
Well, Brent, it's been awesome having you.
Yeah. Fascinating. Nice to meet you. Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah.
Really... I'm... Yeah. We really enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you. Hey, listeners.
If you have any comments or questions, reach
out to us at contact it this week
in mormons dot com.
And,
if not,
we'll talk to you again next week. Take
care.