WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.070 --> 00:00:06.480 This is the View from Apollo Podcast, an ongoing conversation on alternative 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.710 investing economics and the trends shaping up financial markets. 00:00:11.610 --> 00:00:15.510 In this episode of The View from Apollo, chief economist, Torson Schlock 00:00:15.510 --> 00:00:19.920 speaks with Olivia Wasser, head of Sustainability and Infrastructure at Apol. 00:00:20.580 --> 00:00:24.330 About the outsized and unprecedented investment opportunity. 00:00:24.330 --> 00:00:26.100 That is the clean transition. 00:00:26.610 --> 00:00:30.450 Here's Olivia's take on recent legislative support in the us. 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.300 Climate change is an existential issue. 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:36.090 The consequences today are well known. 00:00:36.210 --> 00:00:39.570 We're experiencing higher temperatures, rising sea levels. 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:44.925 The damages from weather and climate related disasters are in the multi-billion. 00:00:45.265 --> 00:00:53.875 Last year alone numbers topped 165 billion with 18 individual disasters causing more 00:00:53.875 --> 00:00:55.765 than a billion dollars of damage each. 00:00:56.635 --> 00:00:58.075 That's wild if you think about it. 00:00:58.075 --> 00:00:58.495 Torsten 00:00:59.155 --> 00:01:03.055 also, Torsten and Olivia explore their views on the sheer size of 00:01:03.055 --> 00:01:07.225 the opportunity considerations to approach the clean transition theme. 00:01:07.545 --> 00:01:11.235 And the fact that many of the most interesting opportunities aren't brand 00:01:11.235 --> 00:01:15.375 names, but enabling technologies that make the whole transition possible. 00:01:15.675 --> 00:01:18.315 Olivia also has a great reading recommendation. 00:01:18.435 --> 00:01:20.055 Make sure to stick around for that. 00:01:20.535 --> 00:01:22.635 So let's get started. 00:01:23.745 --> 00:01:24.225 Hello everyone. 00:01:25.095 --> 00:01:28.665 I'm your host, Charleston Slack, chief economist at Apollo, and you're listening 00:01:28.665 --> 00:01:30.315 to the View from Apollo Podcast. 00:01:30.855 --> 00:01:36.015 My guest today is Olivia Vassar, head of Sustainability and Infrastructure at Apollo. 00:01:36.645 --> 00:01:41.655 We are here today to discuss what we believe is an outsized and unprecedented investment 00:01:41.655 --> 00:01:44.835 opportunity, investing in the clean transition. 00:01:45.255 --> 00:01:46.330 Welcome to the show, Olivia. 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:47.985 It's really great to have you with us. 00:01:48.435 --> 00:01:49.995 It's good to be here at Torsten. 00:01:50.085 --> 00:01:50.690 Thank you for having me. 00:01:51.205 --> 00:01:53.155 So let's start out with setting some context. 00:01:53.905 --> 00:01:58.045 At Apollo, we describe the clean transition as an outsize and 00:01:58.045 --> 00:01:59.845 unprecedented investment opportunity. 00:02:00.505 --> 00:02:01.435 That's the good news. 00:02:01.825 --> 00:02:07.675 I watch your recent class on Apollo Academy on the subject, and unlike a lot of doomsdayers 00:02:07.765 --> 00:02:13.495 out there, you voiced optimism that decision makers around the globe are finally taking 00:02:13.495 --> 00:02:15.295 the impacts of climate change seriously. 00:02:15.985 --> 00:02:17.245 But that doesn't change the fact. 00:02:17.600 --> 00:02:20.330 That the negative impacts of climate change continue to increase 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:21.890 in both frequency and cost. 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:27.770 This year, for example, seems to have delivered one climate disaster after another. 00:02:28.370 --> 00:02:30.885 Can you give us some detail on the scope and scale of the problem? 00:02:31.965 --> 00:02:32.625 Sure. 00:02:32.805 --> 00:02:35.925 I am very optimistic about where we are heading. 00:02:35.955 --> 00:02:38.325 Climate change is an existential issue. 00:02:38.595 --> 00:02:41.175 The consequences today are well known. 00:02:41.685 --> 00:02:45.015 We're experiencing higher temperatures, rising sea levels. 00:02:45.435 --> 00:02:50.835 The damages from weather and climate related disasters are in the multi-billions. 00:02:50.925 --> 00:02:59.025 Last year alone numbers topped 165 billion with 18 individual disasters causing more 00:02:59.025 --> 00:03:00.885 than a billion dollars of damage each. 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:03.630 That's wild if you think about it, Torsten. 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:07.800 Well, I love it when you can put some numbers on things as we try to wrap our 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:11.670 heads around this problem quantitatively, what does substantial investment mean? 00:03:12.090 --> 00:03:12.600 It's a lot. 00:03:12.810 --> 00:03:16.230 So as we think about it, the investment, what we call clean transition, 00:03:16.230 --> 00:03:17.280 and I should just frame that. 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:19.260 You know, a lot of people say energy transition. 00:03:19.350 --> 00:03:22.290 We say clean transition because it's not just energy. 00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:23.940 We think about water usage. 00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:25.800 We think about the circular economy. 00:03:26.070 --> 00:03:29.790 We are very much focused on a world that just doesn't involve. 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:33.299 Transitioning on the energy side, but also the broader economy. 00:03:33.390 --> 00:03:37.350 We look at this and think investments need to triple from 20, 22 levels 00:03:37.350 --> 00:03:42.810 by 2030 and need to nearly quintuple by 2050, and that's a lot of money. 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:47.654 If you think about it, it's going from, you know, 1.6 trillion today to 4.6 00:03:47.654 --> 00:03:51.555 trillion by 2030 and 7.9 trillion by 2050. 00:03:52.935 --> 00:03:53.265 Wow. 00:03:53.415 --> 00:03:57.584 So the investment needs are going to grow into the trillions over 00:03:57.584 --> 00:03:58.799 the, into the trillions decade. 00:03:59.234 --> 00:04:02.865 The IEA says the total investment need is 150 trillion. 00:04:03.075 --> 00:04:06.044 McKinsey says it's 275 trillion. 00:04:06.195 --> 00:04:10.845 I saw something from PWC that said a thousand dollars per year for every person 00:04:10.845 --> 00:04:15.644 on the planet, these numbers, any way you slice and dice it are pretty massive. 00:04:15.945 --> 00:04:16.125 Wow. 00:04:16.125 --> 00:04:17.685 That's an incredible amount of capital. 00:04:18.644 --> 00:04:20.235 And when we talk about clean transition. 00:04:20.555 --> 00:04:24.275 We are mostly talking about deep decarbonization, which will require 00:04:24.275 --> 00:04:27.155 significant innovation and changes in consumer and business behavior. 00:04:27.365 --> 00:04:29.045 How do we even start thinking about this? 00:04:29.705 --> 00:04:34.385 When we talk about then transition, we are really thinking about this generational 00:04:34.385 --> 00:04:39.275 shift in how we power our homes, how we feel, our cars, how we really think 00:04:39.305 --> 00:04:43.025 about how we use products, what we do with them at the end of the life cycle. 00:04:43.385 --> 00:04:47.435 We tend to focus on it in a few different ways. 00:04:47.820 --> 00:04:53.310 So we have parsed out the needs into a few different sectors, energy transition, 00:04:53.520 --> 00:04:56.130 sustainable mobility, sustainable resource. 00:04:56.250 --> 00:05:00.240 And finally, one of the things I find most fascinating and really massive consumer of 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:02.640 capital is gonna be industrial decarbonization. 00:05:02.969 --> 00:05:07.260 That's really thinking about how we focus on hard to abate sectors and how we help 00:05:07.260 --> 00:05:11.219 these sectors and businesses achieve the changes they're looking to achieve. 00:05:11.789 --> 00:05:12.150 Wow. 00:05:12.239 --> 00:05:16.440 While we hear a lot of climate related bad news, on the other hand, we also 00:05:16.440 --> 00:05:20.820 hear almost every day about new efforts aimed at addressing climate challenges. 00:05:20.909 --> 00:05:24.150 Maybe let's start with what governments are doing, and particularly here in the 00:05:24.150 --> 00:05:28.409 US there have been two really significant pieces of legislation passed in recent years. 00:05:28.530 --> 00:05:31.945 The Inflation Reduction Act and the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. 00:05:32.455 --> 00:05:34.795 What has that kind of support done for the transition? 00:05:35.215 --> 00:05:38.485 It has been a game changer for so many years, and I should say I've been 00:05:38.485 --> 00:05:41.485 investing in this sector for 20 plus years. 00:05:41.545 --> 00:05:43.465 You know, I like to think I was investing in it before. 00:05:43.465 --> 00:05:48.325 It was cool, really being able to see just one, the magnitude of capital 00:05:48.385 --> 00:05:50.545 between all these various different acts. 00:05:50.995 --> 00:05:53.635 Also combined with the visibility and certainty. 00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:54.350 Right. 00:05:54.350 --> 00:05:58.760 I mean, we had, for so many years, we had various different regimes and tax credits we 00:05:58.760 --> 00:06:00.170 were looking at that didn't have certainty. 00:06:00.170 --> 00:06:02.120 There were a couple years here, a couple years there. 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:05.270 It made it really hard for the private sector to invest. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.900 One of the things I love about all these bills that have been enacted in the us, which is 00:06:08.900 --> 00:06:12.230 about 532 billion of federal support here. 00:06:12.620 --> 00:06:14.630 It gives us a runway in many cases. 00:06:14.630 --> 00:06:19.010 It gives us a 10 year period in and around these various different components 00:06:19.010 --> 00:06:21.140 of these bills that we can invest into. 00:06:21.140 --> 00:06:23.240 If you're a private equity investor like me, what do you like? 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:23.960 You like certainty. 00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:27.885 You know, you like visibility into a time period and what things are gonna look like. 00:06:29.205 --> 00:06:29.745 Oh wow. 00:06:29.775 --> 00:06:34.125 532 billion in funding across categories of carbon free energy. 00:06:34.185 --> 00:06:38.085 That's a very big number in its own, but are there any multiplier effects on top of that? 00:06:38.415 --> 00:06:40.995 You're right, it is a big number and it's an impressive one and 00:06:40.995 --> 00:06:42.315 one we're very excited about. 00:06:42.495 --> 00:06:45.795 I do think there's gonna be a pretty significant multiplier effect here. 00:06:46.015 --> 00:06:50.305 We think the number based on that could be up to 1.8 trillion. 00:06:50.365 --> 00:06:53.455 And while we're talking again about big numbers in the whole scheme 00:06:53.455 --> 00:06:55.255 of things, there's still a gap. 00:06:55.285 --> 00:07:00.535 And so when we think about this sort of public private divide, one of the things 00:07:00.535 --> 00:07:03.775 that we've talked a lot about is what is the role of private capital, all this. 00:07:04.195 --> 00:07:07.345 Ultimately, when we add up all the dollars coming in from governments, 00:07:07.585 --> 00:07:09.835 we think we'll probably see about 30%. 00:07:10.245 --> 00:07:12.465 Of all the capital needed coming from governments. 00:07:12.825 --> 00:07:12.885 Wow. 00:07:12.885 --> 00:07:18.585 Which leads to about a 70% gap in funding that's gotta come from the private sector. 00:07:18.885 --> 00:07:21.795 And that's gotta come both from the equity side as well as the credit side. 00:07:22.155 --> 00:07:25.725 Well, uh, those are really big numbers, but as you pointed out, I mean we need 00:07:25.725 --> 00:07:27.525 much more than that to get this job done. 00:07:27.555 --> 00:07:31.725 So outside the US and outside the inflation redox act, what has been 00:07:31.725 --> 00:07:32.835 done on the infrastructure front? 00:07:33.075 --> 00:07:36.435 What are governments around the world doing elsewhere outside the us? 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:40.860 I mean, it's probably one of the most topped about topics, if we think about 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:44.910 it, what various different economies are doing to really prepare themselves 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:48.900 for this transition, what the economic opportunities are in the transition. 00:07:49.140 --> 00:07:53.640 I think from my perspective, the US in a lot of ways had been a little bit of a laggard here. 00:07:53.890 --> 00:07:58.870 It was, we were not always cutting edge in terms of policy and otherwise 00:07:58.870 --> 00:08:02.140 around things like renewable energy and modernization of the grid. 00:08:02.349 --> 00:08:07.479 When we announced this massive bill a year ago, one of the things I think it did was, 00:08:07.510 --> 00:08:09.430 you know, it, it put other economies on. 00:08:09.430 --> 00:08:14.020 Watch Europe said, you know, my goodness, we thought we were the best innovators 00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:15.159 and the most forward in this area. 00:08:15.159 --> 00:08:20.260 And here the US government has come out with this tremendous amount of support. 00:08:20.440 --> 00:08:21.609 We gotta step it up on our end. 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:25.570 There's a lot of discussion too about how the renewables revolution is 00:08:25.570 --> 00:08:29.380 redrawing the geopolitical map for key commodities and the supply chains 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:31.120 related to those commodities as well. 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.950 Broadly speaking, are there any implications of this energy transition? 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:39.490 Anything that is going to have a broader macro impact in your view? 00:08:39.850 --> 00:08:43.030 I do think you're seeing a little bit of redrawing of the map when you're 00:08:43.030 --> 00:08:48.190 looking at where minerals and renewable energy components are coming from. 00:08:48.700 --> 00:08:51.190 They're coming from a pretty different set of countries. 00:08:51.770 --> 00:08:53.840 Then what you saw hydrocarbons coming from. 00:08:54.260 --> 00:08:58.670 And so as we're looking at these flows, it's really a remarkable difference in this area. 00:08:58.939 --> 00:08:59.720 That's fascinating. 00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:01.430 So let's just back up a little bit here. 00:09:01.490 --> 00:09:05.720 You are heading up our sustainable investing efforts here at Apollo, and I 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:10.130 know that we are targeting a deployment of 50 billion in clean energy and climate 00:09:10.130 --> 00:09:14.720 investments over the next four years and a possible a hundred billion by 2030. 00:09:14.990 --> 00:09:18.470 How are we thinking about achieving that vis-a-vis the opportunities 00:09:18.470 --> 00:09:19.460 that you have identified? 00:09:20.085 --> 00:09:22.064 First thing we did is look at what we've done historically. 00:09:22.605 --> 00:09:26.775 So we've put 23 billion to work over the last five years in climate 00:09:26.775 --> 00:09:28.275 and transition related investments. 00:09:28.485 --> 00:09:31.455 That's a big number and something that we're very proud of that 00:09:31.455 --> 00:09:32.835 really happened across Apollo. 00:09:33.105 --> 00:09:34.905 You know, that happened in our credit business. 00:09:34.905 --> 00:09:38.085 That happened in our real estate business and our infrastructure business 00:09:38.085 --> 00:09:39.194 and our private equity business. 00:09:39.735 --> 00:09:42.105 It came from so many different pockets of capital. 00:09:42.375 --> 00:09:43.730 But one of the things we realized is. 00:09:44.095 --> 00:09:48.505 We didn't actually have any dedicated pools of capital going after this opportunity. 00:09:48.505 --> 00:09:53.095 So for us, one of the big components of looking at deployment and how we can really 00:09:53.305 --> 00:09:57.145 deploy more in this area was trying to figure out are there dedicated pools of capital 00:09:57.145 --> 00:10:01.195 that we should be raising to really more proactively go after these opportunities 00:10:01.195 --> 00:10:03.205 in a more thoughtful and consistent way? 00:10:03.355 --> 00:10:06.805 And so that for me has been one of the big areas I've been focused on over the last year 00:10:06.805 --> 00:10:11.035 or so, is trying to get the right pools of capital together for the right opportunities. 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:12.810 That's very interesting. 00:10:12.810 --> 00:10:16.260 Is this more of an equity or a debt proposition? 00:10:16.350 --> 00:10:20.340 You know, interestingly enough, it really spans everything that we do. 00:10:20.430 --> 00:10:22.020 It's really across asset classes. 00:10:22.020 --> 00:10:25.680 I mean, when we think about the transition, it's not a sector, right? 00:10:25.710 --> 00:10:27.180 It's not a single asset class. 00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:28.140 It's a theme. 00:10:28.230 --> 00:10:30.990 It's gonna permeate so much of what we do. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:31.705 So, okay. 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:33.000 Both debt equity, 00:10:33.630 --> 00:10:37.050 debt equity, wherever the opportunity is, real asset, it's, it's gonna 00:10:37.050 --> 00:10:38.220 be in so many different areas. 00:10:38.235 --> 00:10:42.165 And that's one of the things I really like about the opportunity is it allows us to 00:10:42.165 --> 00:10:46.395 really deploy across the broader Apollo ecosystem into so many different areas and 00:10:46.395 --> 00:10:47.955 frankly, into so many different sectors. 00:10:47.955 --> 00:10:50.865 I mean, we're looking at this both on the power and energy side, but we're 00:10:50.865 --> 00:10:54.645 also looking at on the industrial side, on the consumer side, there are so many 00:10:54.645 --> 00:10:56.505 different ways to come after this thesis. 00:10:56.565 --> 00:10:59.320 It really provides a really exciting opportunity for investors. 00:11:00.255 --> 00:11:03.885 So, and how would you describe this investment theme more broadly? 00:11:03.885 --> 00:11:05.954 I mean, what is the nomenclature? 00:11:05.954 --> 00:11:06.824 How do you think about it? 00:11:06.824 --> 00:11:08.025 From an investing perspective, 00:11:08.415 --> 00:11:12.525 I'd say about 60% of what we've done as a firm, historically has been in the energy transition. 00:11:12.675 --> 00:11:14.025 So, what do I put in that category? 00:11:14.025 --> 00:11:18.795 I put in things like renewable energy, biofuels, energy storage, you know, 00:11:18.795 --> 00:11:20.714 anything really around the electrical grid. 00:11:20.714 --> 00:11:23.729 It's, that's energy transition, and that's a big part of what we've done. 00:11:24.334 --> 00:11:27.935 And frankly, a big part of what we will continue to do, but that's not 00:11:27.935 --> 00:11:29.584 the only part of where we're investing. 00:11:30.005 --> 00:11:34.805 We're also looking at sustainable mobility, how we think about the changes in the vehicles 00:11:34.805 --> 00:11:38.975 we use, how we think about electrification infrastructure in and around that. 00:11:39.275 --> 00:11:42.694 There are many technologies and services around that are investible. 00:11:43.979 --> 00:11:45.540 We think about sustainable resource use. 00:11:45.540 --> 00:11:49.949 So we're thinking about things like, you know, the circular economy, how we think 00:11:49.949 --> 00:11:54.150 about waste and water management, smart agriculture, sustainable metals, and 00:11:54.150 --> 00:11:57.479 mining, right to the point before about where these components are coming from. 00:11:57.540 --> 00:11:59.819 And finally, industrial decarbonization. 00:12:00.265 --> 00:12:04.825 So that for me, we talk a lot about grade green, so how do we keep, how do 00:12:04.825 --> 00:12:09.085 we take high admitters and help them really go through their own transition? 00:12:09.445 --> 00:12:12.295 That's something that we are very focused on, both on the equity 00:12:12.295 --> 00:12:13.465 and credit side of the business. 00:12:13.825 --> 00:12:16.555 Well, and you said that most of the historical investment has been in the 00:12:16.555 --> 00:12:18.295 first theme, namely energy transition. 00:12:18.385 --> 00:12:19.825 Well, what's the breakdown today? 00:12:20.125 --> 00:12:23.275 Where are the most interesting in sizeable investment opportunities coming from 00:12:23.275 --> 00:12:25.165 across those four different themes? 00:12:25.855 --> 00:12:28.435 You know, interestingly, I think today we're still seeing the most 00:12:28.435 --> 00:12:30.445 outta the energy transition for sure. 00:12:30.715 --> 00:12:36.625 But I will say we see a real emerging trend around industrial decarbonization. 00:12:36.985 --> 00:12:42.535 So really working with our corporate partners, working with lots of Apollos, you know, legacy 00:12:42.535 --> 00:12:46.915 relationships is as they think about, you know, how they are meeting their own goals. 00:12:47.335 --> 00:12:50.430 The ability l for us to be able to finance that is really exciting for me. 00:12:51.765 --> 00:12:54.974 Well, let's dive a little bit deeper into the themes individually. 00:12:54.974 --> 00:12:58.125 So what energy transition investments, what are the themes? 00:12:58.125 --> 00:12:59.564 What different things are you looking at? 00:13:00.074 --> 00:13:01.935 Gosh, we are looking at a lot these days. 00:13:01.935 --> 00:13:04.755 I mean, one of the things that's really fascinating for me is around 00:13:04.755 --> 00:13:06.944 the grid, the aging grid in the us. 00:13:06.944 --> 00:13:10.425 We did an expert briefing a couple weeks ago led by Jonathan Silver, 00:13:10.425 --> 00:13:11.834 who chairs our climate council. 00:13:12.125 --> 00:13:14.885 On what it's gonna take to modernize the grid in the us. 00:13:14.885 --> 00:13:14.945 Yeah. 00:13:14.945 --> 00:13:15.125 How 00:13:15.125 --> 00:13:16.235 bad is it in your view? 00:13:16.235 --> 00:13:16.355 I 00:13:16.355 --> 00:13:16.865 mean, it's bad. 00:13:17.040 --> 00:13:17.330 Okay. 00:13:18.515 --> 00:13:20.465 Uh, it's, but therein lies opportunity, right? 00:13:20.465 --> 00:13:24.005 I mean, we look at the delay in interconnects, we look at permitting. 00:13:24.005 --> 00:13:27.605 Like, I think there are a lot of things that, you know, I, my hope is we'll get sped up, you 00:13:27.605 --> 00:13:29.375 know, in the process over the next few years. 00:13:29.755 --> 00:13:34.944 But there are a lot of components to updating the grid that we think will be exciting for us. 00:13:34.975 --> 00:13:37.465 Is it across the whole country or is there some parts that are a bit 00:13:37.465 --> 00:13:39.295 better, or is it just really not good? 00:13:39.415 --> 00:13:40.645 Yeah, it's pretty much everywhere. 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:41.120 Okay. 00:13:42.355 --> 00:13:44.485 You know, we've had a bit of a changing landscape in this country. 00:13:44.485 --> 00:13:44.814 Right. 00:13:45.055 --> 00:13:48.385 As we think about power sources, you know, our power sources are different 00:13:48.385 --> 00:13:50.275 today than they were 50 years ago. 00:13:50.635 --> 00:13:52.795 I'm a big believer in batteries. 00:13:52.825 --> 00:13:57.085 I think wind and solar have been fantastic, but one of the things that we see is 00:13:57.085 --> 00:13:58.465 the effects of intermittent power. 00:13:58.585 --> 00:13:58.765 Yeah, 00:13:58.975 --> 00:14:02.575 I think the real solution for that is going to be around the battery landscape, so 00:14:02.575 --> 00:14:04.555 that's something that we're very focused on. 00:14:04.855 --> 00:14:09.505 We see a real opportunity for gas to replace some of the less clean fuels 00:14:09.805 --> 00:14:12.715 and how we think about transporting those from one area to another. 00:14:12.715 --> 00:14:18.680 I think energy transition is such a. Big topic, we could invest that whole $50 00:14:18.680 --> 00:14:20.855 billion really in energy transition alone. 00:14:21.125 --> 00:14:23.165 But there is so much more even beyond that. 00:14:23.765 --> 00:14:26.825 And what about the topic of industrial decarbonization? 00:14:26.915 --> 00:14:27.965 What are the themes? 00:14:27.965 --> 00:14:29.555 What are the opportunities that you're looking at there? 00:14:30.225 --> 00:14:35.895 We are looking at a variety of different businesses, helping companies change some 00:14:35.895 --> 00:14:37.125 of the parts of their infrastructure. 00:14:37.125 --> 00:14:43.064 So for example, industrial businesses as they are focused on transitioning 00:14:43.064 --> 00:14:44.685 to a different type of fleet. 00:14:45.074 --> 00:14:46.875 What is the infrastructure around that? 00:14:47.175 --> 00:14:50.145 Can we help companies finance their EV charging build? 00:14:50.735 --> 00:14:54.305 Down the road as we think about hydrogen as a source, are there 00:14:54.575 --> 00:14:55.955 things that we can do around that? 00:14:55.955 --> 00:15:00.125 So we're having some pretty good discussions around where our different 00:15:00.125 --> 00:15:03.515 pools of capital can be most active and most applicable in these areas. 00:15:04.605 --> 00:15:08.895 And your third theme of the sustainable mobility obviously includes electric cars, 00:15:08.895 --> 00:15:13.665 and you spoke about batteries of course, which is a very important part also of that theme. 00:15:13.665 --> 00:15:18.314 But there are numerous ways to invest in that transition beyond the big brand names. 00:15:18.314 --> 00:15:21.795 So what kind of interesting developments are happening in EVs? 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:27.390 I think we will look back on EV infrastructure and that build out and 00:15:27.390 --> 00:15:30.810 think of that a little bit like, you know, we do cell towers today, right? 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:36.540 I think getting into the prime locations for charging is going to be a big 00:15:36.540 --> 00:15:38.640 part of the opportunity set here. 00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:42.540 So really wanting to, you know, frankly, pick the best spots, get 00:15:42.540 --> 00:15:43.650 into the markets that are growing. 00:15:43.835 --> 00:15:46.025 We've really liked the European charging opportunity. 00:15:46.475 --> 00:15:50.705 It's a market that is much more advanced than the US today, you know, and a lot 00:15:50.705 --> 00:15:52.025 of it has to do with just the layout. 00:15:52.025 --> 00:15:55.235 How you think about cities, how you think about connectivity of cities in Europe, 00:15:55.625 --> 00:15:59.345 how you think about availability of things like, you know, like garages, right? 00:15:59.645 --> 00:16:02.615 You know, in the US we're gonna be doing a lot of charging, like in our homes. 00:16:02.995 --> 00:16:03.295 Right. 00:16:03.325 --> 00:16:04.615 People have garages. 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.375 Interesting, you know, the way cities are laid out, so that's gonna be a big component. 00:16:07.705 --> 00:16:10.735 Whereas in Europe, you know, you have old buildings, you don't always 00:16:10.735 --> 00:16:13.585 have, you know, personalized garages where you can install a charger. 00:16:13.855 --> 00:16:16.735 So you're thinking about how can I charge in a downtown area? 00:16:17.035 --> 00:16:18.895 How can I charge my local grocery store? 00:16:19.285 --> 00:16:23.275 How am I charging on the side of a highway between cities as I'm on a trip? 00:16:23.695 --> 00:16:28.795 I do think that opportunity for our type of capital is, at least in the near to 00:16:28.795 --> 00:16:29.995 medium term, gonna be more interesting. 00:16:30.260 --> 00:16:34.220 So we will have charging stations across the country at a whole different scale 00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:35.480 relative to what we're seeing today. 00:16:36.290 --> 00:16:38.090 Eventually, yes, it's gonna take some time. 00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:39.590 It's definitely not happening overnight. 00:16:39.590 --> 00:16:42.770 I mean, if you have an electric vehicle today, range anxiety is real. 00:16:42.980 --> 00:16:46.820 So that is gonna take some time to develop that connectivity, but it's coming. 00:16:47.540 --> 00:16:47.720 Okay. 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:52.190 And finally on your fourth theme of sustainable resource use, tell us about that. 00:16:52.280 --> 00:16:57.050 The circular economy, for example, is a great idea, but how and where is it investible? 00:16:57.650 --> 00:17:00.110 One of the things we've been really focused on are plastics. 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.410 My kids come home and they want no plastics in the home. 00:17:03.650 --> 00:17:07.730 They are actually very versed on how we think about recycling there. 00:17:07.850 --> 00:17:13.850 We invested in a business about a year ago that focuses on plastics recycling, you 00:17:13.850 --> 00:17:16.010 know, the thin wrap that goes on packaging. 00:17:16.130 --> 00:17:19.100 I do think there's gonna be a lot to do around the circular economy. 00:17:19.130 --> 00:17:22.070 That's something that is coming into increased focus. 00:17:22.415 --> 00:17:28.234 The EU has enacted legislation around recycling plastics, but you know, more recently, the US 00:17:28.234 --> 00:17:32.465 has also introduced some pretty significant grants and programs to increase the recycling 00:17:32.465 --> 00:17:36.335 rate in the US trying to target 50% by 2030. 00:17:36.725 --> 00:17:40.055 That's gonna require a massive investment around infrastructure as well. 00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:45.450 Well, Olivia, we could continue and keep going here, but sadly we reached our allotted time. 00:17:45.540 --> 00:17:48.899 But before I let you go, the way we try to close out our episodes 00:17:48.899 --> 00:17:50.550 is with a personal recommendation. 00:17:50.760 --> 00:17:52.560 So what's your recommendation today? 00:17:52.590 --> 00:17:53.429 Could be anything. 00:17:53.429 --> 00:17:55.439 A book you're reading, a movie you're seeing. 00:17:55.439 --> 00:17:58.530 What's occupying your time when you're not thinking about sustainable 00:17:58.530 --> 00:18:01.125 investing, which I do know that you're thinking about all day long. 00:18:01.605 --> 00:18:06.975 When I get home at night, I like to relax and so I don't really read nonfiction. 00:18:07.065 --> 00:18:07.845 I like a good book. 00:18:08.175 --> 00:18:09.555 I come from a family of writers. 00:18:09.555 --> 00:18:10.905 Both my parents are writers. 00:18:10.995 --> 00:18:14.175 Two of my sisters are writers, and my grandfather was a writer. 00:18:14.235 --> 00:18:16.544 It's, you know, it was such a big part of my childhood. 00:18:16.845 --> 00:18:18.585 I was a literature major in college. 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:22.610 I thought for many years that I was gonna be a writer as well, but I always loved math. 00:18:22.610 --> 00:18:25.820 It was something that I almost kind of had to fight the fact that what I was good at 00:18:25.820 --> 00:18:28.430 was maybe a little bit different from what everyone else in my family was good at. 00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:31.160 Everyone always jokes that I was switched to birth because I'm, you know, the 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:32.720 only one who's not a writer these days. 00:18:32.870 --> 00:18:36.290 I just finished the Lincoln Highway, which was a phenomenal book. 00:18:36.290 --> 00:18:37.460 I had a highly recommend it. 00:18:37.490 --> 00:18:41.000 I started reading that on a Friday evening and really tore through 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:42.110 it over the course of the weekend. 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.980 Oh, it just shows how versatile you are both, uh, humanities and math. 00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:50.330 Well, on my side, what I enjoy doing when I'm not doing what I'm doing 00:18:50.330 --> 00:18:52.280 in my day job is to watch soccer. 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:54.950 And I happen to be a fan of Manchester United. 00:18:54.950 --> 00:18:56.660 And unfortunately they haven't been doing too well. 00:18:56.750 --> 00:19:00.710 They do have a Danish soccer player, a Rasmus Hoer and who scored two goals recently. 00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:01.850 So I'm proud of that. 00:19:01.850 --> 00:19:04.670 But I recommend everyone to find a sport or find a book or 00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:05.960 something that they really enjoy. 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:08.480 And unfortunately my team is not doing too well at the moment, but 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.190 hopefully they will soon come back. 00:19:10.260 --> 00:19:11.010 But thanks so much. 00:19:11.010 --> 00:19:12.300 We really appreciate it, Olivia. 00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:16.320 That's really interesting conversation we have had, and I really appreciate your time. 00:19:16.320 --> 00:19:17.310 I know how busy you are. 00:19:17.310 --> 00:19:22.710 So with that, thanks so much for joining us today and thanks so much to everyone else 00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:24.420 for listening, and stay safe everybody. 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:26.340 Thanks George, and thanks for having me. 00:19:26.340 --> 00:19:27.930 And thanks to everyone today for listening. 00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:32.520 This podcast was recorded on October the fourth, 2023. 00:19:33.955 --> 00:19:34.885 Thanks for listening. 00:19:35.185 --> 00:19:40.645 A quick reminder that you can subscribe to this podcast on Spotify, apple Podcasts and 00:19:40.645 --> 00:19:46.375 Audible, or by visiting apollo academy.com, our educational website dedicated to 00:19:46.375 --> 00:19:51.955 alternative investing, where you can also sign up to have torson Daily Spark economic blog 00:19:51.955 --> 00:19:54.530 delivered directly to your inbox once again. 00:19:55.045 --> 00:19:56.065 Thanks for listening. 00:19:56.425 --> 00:20:00.865 As of December 31st, 2022, deployment commensurate with Apollo's Clean Transition 00:20:00.865 --> 00:20:03.805 Investment Framework, which provides guidelines and metrics with respect to the 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