1 00:00:04,090 --> 00:00:08,270 All the ways in which we numb out and protect ourselves from shame, 2 00:00:09,490 --> 00:00:13,590 get in the way of authenticity, and they get in the way of authentic belonging. 3 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:18,710 And yet, when it comes to that piece about racialized trauma, 4 00:00:19,530 --> 00:00:21,950 racism is not about belonging. 5 00:00:22,450 --> 00:00:26,110 Racism is not about not fitting in or not belonging. 6 00:00:26,690 --> 00:00:28,350 Racism is about dignity. 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,860 And so where are the spaces where we can experience safety, 8 00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:39,820 physical safety, as well as psychological safety and agency? 9 00:00:40,410 --> 00:00:45,340 Because when you combine physical and psychological safety with agency, 10 00:00:46,330 --> 00:00:49,860 this in the capacity for authentic self-expression, 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,020 for taking up space for the dignity of mattering, 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,140 and a byproduct of that dignity is belonging. 13 00:01:01,530 --> 00:01:05,860 Welcome to Therapist Uncensored, building on decades of professional experience. 14 00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:07,860 This podcast tackles neurobiology, 15 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,060 modern attachment and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans. 16 00:01:12,490 --> 00:01:15,860 Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. 17 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:23,060 So, you know, 18 00:01:23,060 --> 00:01:26,420 we talk a lot about self-care and we want you to check in with yourself before 19 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,060 you offer help to someone else rest. 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Hey everybody, 40 00:02:34,830 --> 00:02:38,060 thank you for coming back and joining us at Therapist and censored. 41 00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:42,540 We are thrilled to have you and could not be more excited to introduce you to 42 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:43,373 our guest today. 43 00:02:44,070 --> 00:02:47,900 Linda Tai is a trauma therapist and educator who specializes in brain and 44 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:51,380 body-based modalities for addressing complex developmental trauma. 45 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,700 Her work centers on healing with a special focus on experiences of 46 00:02:56,710 --> 00:03:01,240 adult children of refugees and immigrants. Welcome, 47 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,200 welcome to the show. 48 00:03:02,510 --> 00:03:04,040 It's a pleasure to be here, Sue. 49 00:03:04,620 --> 00:03:08,480 So I would love to hear, if you don't mind context a little bit, 50 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:11,400 you were born in South Vietnam? Yeah. 51 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:16,480 Yes. So I was born in South Vietnam just after the fall of Saigon, 52 00:03:16,660 --> 00:03:18,240 so at the end of the Vietnam War. 53 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:23,400 And my family are former Vietnamese vote people. 54 00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:28,320 So I'm a former child refugee, and my parents are also refugees. 55 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:33,960 And you know, it's taken the entirety of my life to actually 56 00:03:35,530 --> 00:03:40,160 grasp the context within which the circumstances 57 00:03:40,340 --> 00:03:42,680 of my becoming into this world arose. 58 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,640 I felt so bereft in the world, you know, 59 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,200 I had parents where we didn't even speak the same language as each other because 60 00:03:50,540 --> 00:03:52,200 I'm living in Australia with them, 61 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:58,000 and yet they speak Vietnamese and I'm having struggles with mental 62 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,720 health issues with addiction. 63 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:05,120 I felt this huge gulf between us and yet this immense desire to try and make 64 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,400 sense of myself and of them and of my life. 65 00:04:10,340 --> 00:04:15,120 And it was well into my thirties that I was able to go, oh, 66 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:21,000 you know, traditional set psychology says, what's wrong with you? Yeah, 67 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,920 trauma informed psychology says what happened to you. 68 00:04:26,090 --> 00:04:29,150 And that being its own journey, right? That what happened to you. 69 00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:30,893 Yeah. 70 00:04:31,050 --> 00:04:35,990 And then culturally informed psychology says what happened 71 00:04:36,090 --> 00:04:40,200 to your people? And liberation psychology says, 72 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:44,360 and what continues to happen to your people? 73 00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:49,390 And to be able to have discovered Alaska where I live these days 74 00:04:50,530 --> 00:04:54,990 on the traditional lands of the Dene Athabascan Peoples of the Middle 75 00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:56,003 Tanana Valley, 76 00:04:56,810 --> 00:05:01,790 has allowed me enough bandwidth to be able to unpack all 77 00:05:01,790 --> 00:05:05,990 of that because there's so many layers to the context 78 00:05:07,420 --> 00:05:10,310 that no one explained to me. 79 00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:16,750 I experienced an immense series of light bulbs going off 80 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:19,350 when I discovered Galbo mate's work. 81 00:05:19,530 --> 00:05:23,070 And then when I discovered Bessel VanDerKolk's work specifically, 82 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:27,070 the body keeps the score. And yet when I read, 83 00:05:27,070 --> 00:05:30,390 the Body Keeps the Score. It was so evident to me that I was a trauma survivor. 84 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:31,390 I had all the symptoms, 85 00:05:31,410 --> 00:05:34,710 but I didn't have a trauma that I could pin something onto. 86 00:05:35,930 --> 00:05:38,110 And then when asking my parents about it, 87 00:05:38,190 --> 00:05:40,910 I discovered all of the refugee trauma that was there for us. 88 00:05:42,490 --> 00:05:45,990 And yet growing up in our household, there was simply benign neglect. 89 00:05:47,290 --> 00:05:52,070 And so a part of me has been feeling like I'm looking for a 90 00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:55,990 trauma or traumas or abuse that perhaps doesn't exist. 91 00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:02,400 And it's only been in the last couple of years that I've actually 92 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,120 unpacked the impact of racialized trauma and the ways in which the 93 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,480 invisible wounds of racialized trauma has impacted me 94 00:06:11,590 --> 00:06:13,240 psychically, psychologically 95 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,960 impacted how I move through the world as well as my worldview, 96 00:06:18,930 --> 00:06:22,280 which has then given me pause 97 00:06:24,020 --> 00:06:28,480 and has made me very passionate about sharing 98 00:06:29,210 --> 00:06:33,840 about this into the world. And it was emergent today, right? 99 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:38,520 Just earlier in, in our interview where I started going through, 100 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:42,040 you know, traditional psychology and then trauma informed psychology, 101 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,600 and there was a pause and you interjected. And I was like, no, no, 102 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,880 there's more around culturally informed psychology and liberation psychology. 103 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:54,080 And yet I never learned about that in graduate school. 104 00:06:55,380 --> 00:06:59,640 And so many of our listeners who are professionals don't learn about it in 105 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,360 graduate school or after graduate school. 106 00:07:03,540 --> 00:07:08,480 And so I feel in so many ways that we're all at this 107 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,313 cutting edge 108 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:13,760 where it's messy and we're having these conversations, 109 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:18,600 and yet there are pioneers in this field who are leading us that little bit 110 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:19,433 further. 111 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,880 And it comes back to the liberation psychology ethos that 112 00:07:25,390 --> 00:07:29,360 centers the first person narrative, the testimonial 113 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:33,800 as of utmost importance 114 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,370 when we are exploring the voices of those who 115 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,890 inhabit bodies that are marginalized by society. 116 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,130 Because we don't get researched, not by us, 117 00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:53,770 about us, for us. And yet when we start to speak up, 118 00:07:54,670 --> 00:07:57,770 we then get met with, where's the research behind this? Oh, 119 00:07:57,770 --> 00:08:02,010 this is just your lived experience. Oh, we can dismiss that. 120 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,970 When it doesn't fit our preexisting unconscious 121 00:08:07,010 --> 00:08:10,890 projections about how the world works and what is security and what is not 122 00:08:11,210 --> 00:08:13,410 security. And it's one of the, just, 123 00:08:13,470 --> 00:08:17,610 I'm so delighted to talk with you to help us expand our ideas about that. 124 00:08:18,310 --> 00:08:21,170 But if we could go into it, which is racialized trauma, 125 00:08:22,070 --> 00:08:26,210 can you say more about what you mean about that and kind of your personal 126 00:08:26,210 --> 00:08:28,170 experience of how that's impacted you? 127 00:08:29,030 --> 00:08:33,010 So here's where I just wanna pause and acknowledge the works of Dr. 128 00:08:33,010 --> 00:08:37,410 Kenneth Hardy and Res Manum amongst many others, but they've, 129 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,570 they've been my two main teachers in this field. 130 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,330 When we look at racialized trauma, it happens within a context. 131 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,970 That context also happens over time. And this is where, 132 00:08:50,670 --> 00:08:55,560 if I just name some of the invisibleized wounds of racialized 133 00:08:55,560 --> 00:09:00,560 trauma, and this is Dr. Kenneth Hardy's work, it's an assaulted sense of self. 134 00:09:01,310 --> 00:09:05,520 It's internalized devaluation, learned voicelessness, 135 00:09:06,190 --> 00:09:07,960 psychological homelessness, 136 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:12,160 complex and ambiguous grief or loss, 137 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,600 survival orientation and rage. 138 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:22,040 And within that I would also add internalized 139 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:28,520 idealization of the characteristics of those in power. 140 00:09:29,220 --> 00:09:33,040 And whenever I do my PowerPoint presentations and draw upon Dr. 141 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,040 Kenneth Hardie's work, I actually put up that list and people sit there and go, 142 00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:40,800 wow, I get that. As a complex developmental trauma survivor, 143 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,440 I get all of those things and assaultive sense of self internalized 144 00:09:45,510 --> 00:09:46,343 devaluation, 145 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,200 internalize idealization of the qualities of the person in power 146 00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:55,200 learned voicelessness, you know, psychological homelessness, 147 00:09:55,510 --> 00:09:59,520 complex and ambiguous grief and loss, survival, orientation and rage. 148 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:04,200 And then I say these according to Dr. 149 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,880 Kenneth Hardy are the invisibleized wounds of racialized from. 150 00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:12,080 And that's where we hear that gasp. And that's where for many of us, 151 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:17,120 we then become aware of how so many of the conversations that 152 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,640 we have around race, around heterosexism, 153 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:25,720 around cis genderism, around ableism, 154 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:27,560 around sexism, 155 00:10:29,380 --> 00:10:33,240 how it's so easy for us to default to our subjugated selves, 156 00:10:34,060 --> 00:10:38,280 how it's so easy for us to default to that part of us that so deeply 157 00:10:39,130 --> 00:10:40,440 knows these words. 158 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:47,200 And part of the work of allyship is being able to recognize this, 159 00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:52,360 do our own work around those parts of us that are wounded so that we can hold 160 00:10:52,540 --> 00:10:57,040 out or hold forward those parts of ourselves for which this 161 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,400 conversation is about whether the conversation is about whiteness or the 162 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,760 conversation is about ableism, or the conversation is about the patriarchy. 163 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:09,200 Or if the conversation is about transphobic, 164 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:13,360 because it's so easy for us to to go pear shaped, 165 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,680 we veer off the train, tracks it, it goes wly. 166 00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:22,720 And for me to pause and go, wow, where does this work land for me, 167 00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:26,960 for me to recognize that so much of my core wounding around shame? 168 00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:30,800 And while I love the work of Dr. Brene Brown, 169 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,880 like I got so much out of that for myself as well as for my clients. 170 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,640 I worked in a dictionary recovery for over 10 years. 171 00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:42,720 And we learned that all the ways in which we numb out and protect ourselves 172 00:11:43,510 --> 00:11:47,000 from shame, get in the way of authenticity, 173 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:49,520 and they get in the way of authentic belonging. 174 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:54,760 And yet when it comes to that piece about racialized trauma, 175 00:11:55,660 --> 00:11:58,080 racism is not about belonging. 176 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:02,040 Racism is not about not fitting in or not belonging. 177 00:12:02,620 --> 00:12:04,280 Racism is about dignity. 178 00:12:06,450 --> 00:12:10,550 And so where are the spaces where we can experience safety, 179 00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:15,990 physical safety, as well as psychological safety and agency? 180 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:21,270 Because when you combine physical and psychological safety with agency, 181 00:12:22,140 --> 00:12:25,750 there's then the capacity for authentic self-expression, 182 00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:30,990 for taking up space for the dignity of mattering, 183 00:12:31,810 --> 00:12:35,310 and a byproduct of that dignity is belonging. 184 00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:42,370 And you had mentioned a Kenneth Hardy quote before we got on that was really 185 00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:45,290 meaningful to you. Would this be a good place to. 186 00:12:46,190 --> 00:12:48,770 Yes. Oh, thank you for that reminder. 187 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:56,010 Yeah. He says so many brilliant things and they rattle around inside of me. 188 00:12:56,990 --> 00:13:01,730 And one of the things that he says is that when we inhabit a body 189 00:13:01,730 --> 00:13:03,370 that's racialized by society, 190 00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:09,370 we are too busy defending ourselves. We're always defending ourselves. 191 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,650 It's that assaulted sense of self. And so we don't get to then define ourselves. 192 00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:16,130 And when we do define ourselves, 193 00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:20,450 we're defining ourselves in terms of who we are, not rather than who we are. 194 00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:23,050 And even when we are defining ourselves in terms of who we are, 195 00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:28,210 other people are then trying to compartmentalize us or figure 196 00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:32,570 us out in relationship to the categories, the stereotypes. 197 00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:38,130 So there then exists the opportunity or the possibility within myself to lean 198 00:13:38,130 --> 00:13:42,490 towards the stereotype because stereotypes arise for reason. 199 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:46,690 And we each inhabit various aspects of that stereotype. 200 00:13:48,030 --> 00:13:52,130 And part of my task is to lean towards that stereotype 201 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,250 without feeling like I then need to defend myself. 202 00:13:58,850 --> 00:13:59,690 I get what you're saying, 203 00:13:59,690 --> 00:14:03,370 especially in context with a quote that if we're pressing against something, 204 00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:06,450 I'm gay, but I'm not X, y, z. 205 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,490 It's still a disownment of potentially parts of ourselves. 206 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:13,970 Would you be comfortable saying how that applies in your case? 207 00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:15,650 Like if you were to lean into it, 208 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,690 like what do you get the benefit of moving into in yourself that you might 209 00:14:20,690 --> 00:14:22,850 otherwise miss or not even know? 210 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,433 Sure. 211 00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:29,130 So when I was defining myself in terms of who I am, not, 212 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,810 what that butts up against for me is white proximity as a survival 213 00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:38,250 strategy, male proximity as a survival strategy, 214 00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:42,010 and internalizing qualities of whiteness and maleness 215 00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:48,090 and rejecting aspects of my own cultural identity. 216 00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:50,690 That's the painful part. 217 00:14:51,540 --> 00:14:54,840 The parts of myself that I gave away in order to survive. 218 00:14:56,410 --> 00:15:01,000 Where it's giving away aspects of identity, of culture, of language, 219 00:15:01,180 --> 00:15:02,920 of food, of heritage, 220 00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:07,840 that I actually never got the chance to fully inhabit as a result of the forced 221 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,920 displacement of being a former child refugee. 222 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:17,040 And the complex and ambiguous grief that arises 223 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:20,680 as a result of acknowledging and recognizing all of that. 224 00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:25,600 And then leaning towards what could open up for me. 225 00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:29,480 And then there's also the stereotypes of Asians as being smart, 226 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:35,320 as having the answer of being emotionally 227 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,280 unavailable and not being able to be trustworthy. 228 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,400 'cause I say no when I say mean yes. And say yes when I mean no. 229 00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:48,600 And I ardently stro for such a long time to not be that Asian, 230 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:54,600 and I strove not to be the Asian who couldn't speak the language and 231 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,360 only had Asian friends and only hung out with other Asians. 232 00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:00,640 And in the process of that, 233 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,360 I lost my asianness that I never got to 234 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:10,280 experience or inhabit my Vietnamese ness. 235 00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:14,960 You know, Jake Caspian Kang talks about this in his book, 236 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,280 the Loneliest Americans, 237 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:22,400 how as a result of assimilating ourselves in the 238 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:25,080 hopes of getting closer and closer to whiteness, 239 00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:30,720 we then not only distance ourselves from ourselves and our own 240 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:31,720 cultural heritages, 241 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,600 we also distance ourselves from other black and brown bodies while at the 242 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,920 same time not ever being white. 243 00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:45,040 As you were going there. I just felt so emotional actually. 244 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,040 And the words that came to me were like finding home, you know, 245 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,480 like as you began to refind these parts of you that you had disowned, but then, 246 00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:56,840 you know, this is part of the trauma is like, but that wasn't home . 247 00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:02,040 And I just think you've spoken so brilliantly about that idea of like the 248 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,880 loss of something that, and it's the absence of, 249 00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:09,840 and like how can you grieve something that you didn't, that didn't happen. 250 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:13,800 So I can feel it as painful, but yeah, 251 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,680 that is an interesting concept of how do you grieve something that didn't 252 00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:17,693 happen? 253 00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:21,920 We have to name it because we can't grieve something, 254 00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,920 we can't mourn something unless we name it. 255 00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:30,160 And we live in a very concrete society where grief is typically framed as I 256 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:31,600 had something and now it's gone, 257 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:35,400 and now I can wrap up my head around your grief 258 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:39,440 and then help you with solutions for that. 259 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,273 . 260 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:45,440 Yeah, we're gonna fix. 261 00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:46,560 We're gonna fix that right up. 262 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:47,813 Uh. 263 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,720 . Yes. And when it comes to these unnameable losses, 264 00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:54,880 it's a grief over something I never got. 265 00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:59,840 And yet in my work with adult children of 266 00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:01,083 alcoholics, 267 00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:05,440 that's where I actually then started to recognize the grief for the inner child, 268 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:08,360 the grief for what we didn't get, 269 00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:12,120 and the pervasive weight, 270 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:17,040 the vastness of that emptiness and the 271 00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:20,000 loneliness. The loneliness, 272 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,520 I mean across all forms of attachment disruption is 273 00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:25,443 loneliness. 274 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,900 My understanding of as a cisgender white woman, I don't know, 275 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:31,460 but the trans experience, 276 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:36,020 like not having an i this identity that was recognized in the world, 277 00:18:36,020 --> 00:18:38,580 even recognized by yourself as a child, 278 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,900 the concept of it has to form. And in some ways, 279 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,980 the only way that it ever forms is that by it being 280 00:18:49,210 --> 00:18:52,140 like manifest out there, which is some of your work, is like, 281 00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:55,180 let's form it so that you can get to the grieving. 282 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,300 Yes. And let's form that community. 283 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,620 And even just the idea or even the feeling of it or the, 284 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:06,420 it's like you, uh, we talked about emergent, 285 00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:09,860 it's like the way that I'm thinking, I'm not sure if this is right, but like, 286 00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:13,100 it's, it's not a thing you can point to. It's like you said, 287 00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:14,580 is this is ambiguous loss. 288 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,820 So it's like it begins to form as like there is something there, but I, 289 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,260 how do you name what that is? 290 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,740 And even without the name as it takes form, 291 00:19:24,370 --> 00:19:27,540 then there's something that you can feel that is missing or there, 292 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,620 or that you can relate to. But there is something about it being, 293 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,660 it needs to be manifest in the world in order to even know that it's not 294 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:39,740 available. , no, I feel like I'm talking in circles, but I think you're, 295 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,980 are you following ? Am I on the right track? Yeah. 296 00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:43,770 Yeah. 297 00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:45,300 Help me out. Help me out. . 298 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,300 No, I, there's so much joy in the struggle, right? 299 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,900 There's so much joy in going yes, you too. 300 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,140 You are trying to touch something and it's not there, 301 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:57,660 but you know it's there because you keep reaching for it, 302 00:19:58,970 --> 00:20:02,500 knowing that it's supposed to be there. And yet it's so elusive. 303 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,860 You know, that piece, the piece about if I'm always defending myself, 304 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:11,980 I don't get to define myself as children. 305 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,380 One of the developmental actions of attachment is to be able to push against, 306 00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:19,700 because when I push against you, 307 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:24,170 I know that I am real because you are pushing back. 308 00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:29,770 And if I can push against and have that be distinct from pushing 309 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,873 away, 310 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,210 then I learn how to set boundaries and have boundaries as well as how to let go. 311 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,370 Because I know the difference between pushing against that. 312 00:20:39,370 --> 00:20:42,490 It gives me a sense of being real and pushing away. 313 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:48,240 And when it comes to racialized identity, which is, you know, 314 00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:51,200 there's so much in terms of child development that's here in, 315 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,120 in amongst all of this that I'm hoping that I can form solidarity with, 316 00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:59,200 with therapists and with folks who are working their way through their own 317 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,360 childhood stuff, right? 318 00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:04,440 Is that as someone who inhabits a racialized identity, 319 00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:10,160 when I'm busy defending myself, I'm pushing against and the, 320 00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:12,080 and yet that's how I know that I'm real. 321 00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:18,710 And so can I define myself by pushing against and being met with 322 00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:19,573 community 323 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,820 yet met with a container and we talk about containers all the time 324 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,860 in, in therapy. 325 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,380 Can I be met with that rather than be met with 326 00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:35,780 confusion, judgment. 327 00:21:37,940 --> 00:21:42,340 , aggression even right aggression. Yeah, that isn't, that isn't true. 328 00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:44,220 That isn't right. Uhhuh. 329 00:21:45,020 --> 00:21:48,540 Minimization, denial analysis, 330 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:54,300 as well as aspects of other people's 331 00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:58,900 unresolved aspects of self that also emerge in the moment. 332 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,140 And it gets so messy and pushing against one another. You know, 333 00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:07,540 in the mental health field here, as therapists are struggling, you know, 334 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:11,940 this notion of shame and shame being kind of the quick go-to 335 00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:16,900 that can stop relationship, we had sort of spoken about that. Yes. 336 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:21,740 Because oftentimes it outbeat to push against so that you push against me 337 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,180 so I feel real, what happens I push against. 338 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,380 And other responses are I get pushed away or 339 00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:35,900 I am still pushing because there isn't a container. 340 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,700 So I'm trying to find that container. 341 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:42,540 So then I get even more vocal and physical with my pushing 342 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,140 in an attempt to get a need met for feeling real. 343 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,620 And yet when it isn't met with enough pressure, 344 00:22:51,650 --> 00:22:55,380 what emerges in that space of not being met is shame. 345 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,940 And so that then becomes part of that assaulted sense of self and 346 00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:05,620 internalized evaluation as well as internalized 347 00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:10,380 devaluation. I'm then constantly assessing what's wrong with me, 348 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,160 the ways in which I'm not enough or I'm too much, right? 349 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840 The two core wounds, I'm too much, I'm not enough. 350 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:24,080 How can I shift reshape who I 351 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,720 am in order to get my attachment needs met? 352 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:32,920 But beneath attachment is physical and psychological safety 353 00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:38,920 and dignity for self-expression. And so then I'm, 354 00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:42,240 I'm actually always assessing is it okay for me to be me? 355 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,730 I believe there's our own individual work to do, 356 00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:48,640 but then there's also the communal and the community. 357 00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:54,680 And my own journey has been one where by the 358 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,920 time I was a young adult, 359 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,600 if Fox actually had asked me about my Vietnamese heritage or ancestry, 360 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,000 I would've looked at them really blankly and said, I don't know 361 00:24:03,540 --> 00:24:08,160 in that a whole bunch of shame would've come up because there's also within 362 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,120 culture shame about how I've get judged and assessed by other 363 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,680 Vietnamese people about the ways in which I've lost my roots. 364 00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:21,960 And then I'm a big walking ball of shame and I'm not able to step into that 365 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,560 space. And yet at the same time being able to slowly unpack that 366 00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:30,440 has been where, you know, 367 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,840 I have such gratitude for the 12 step groups I've been a part of 368 00:24:35,890 --> 00:24:39,770 'cause that is shame, resiliency. In the words of Brene Brown, 369 00:24:39,870 --> 00:24:44,050 I'm sharing my story to those who've earned the right to share my story about 370 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,233 addiction. 371 00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:50,410 And then in adult children of alcoholics and others raised in dysfunctional 372 00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:54,490 families, even though my family was not alcoholic and there wasn't abuse, 373 00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:56,650 I still had all those symptoms. 374 00:24:57,590 --> 00:25:01,610 And so I got to share my story with always who earned the right to hear my 375 00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:04,290 story. And yet the longer I stayed in those groups, 376 00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:07,170 the more that I saw that there were aspects that weren't being talked about 377 00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:11,610 around race and also around war. We don't talk about war and the impact of war. 378 00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:15,050 And yet it got me further along in the journey. 379 00:25:16,110 --> 00:25:20,450 And then I discovered the work of adult children of Holocaust survivors. 380 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:23,890 Not that I would ever wish to conflate what happened to my people with, 381 00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:26,850 you know, what happened to Holocaust survivors. 382 00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:31,810 And yet there are threads of that that landed for me in my experience that 383 00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:35,860 caused me to go, oh, my parents are trauma survivors. 384 00:25:36,060 --> 00:25:39,980 I had no idea. And I'm living the aftermath of what that means. 385 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,540 And so with each stage of the journey or each layer of the unfolding, 386 00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:51,100 there are parts of myself that begin to open up so that when I 387 00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:53,700 work with other folks who come to me and they say, 388 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,540 I'm adamant I'm a white person and that has been my narrative my entire life, 389 00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:04,060 I can actually say, yeah, I get that. And where shall we begin? 390 00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:09,700 Because the temptation within a society that has an 391 00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:14,180 insecure attachment relationship to time and to productivity 392 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,940 is to want to fix and provide the solutions right now. 393 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,340 All right, let's talk about our sponsors Z Duck. 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I also got my fish oil there, 433 00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:58,120 my super B 12 complex and my protein powder. 434 00:28:59,220 --> 00:29:01,160 So I encourage you to check it out. 435 00:29:01,270 --> 00:29:03,520 It's time to get your health in check with I Herb. 436 00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:07,360 Our listeners get 22% off your first order when you use the code 437 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,400 tu@iherb.com. 438 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:15,000 That's 22% off your first order@iherb.com as long as you use 439 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,800 our promo code t u. 440 00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:21,840 So choose iHerb because your wellness matters and as a way to support the show, 441 00:29:24,170 --> 00:29:27,370 I just am hungry for these concepts. 442 00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:29,410 Say more . 443 00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:32,010 I got so much, 444 00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:36,530 so much juiciness from white bodied people, 445 00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:40,530 which is a phrase I I take from res manum, you know, white bodied folks. 446 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:45,840 And I learned so much from white bodied 447 00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:50,000 psychotherapists and psychotherapy modalities and 448 00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:55,040 attachment theory helped to make my world make a lot more sense 449 00:29:56,700 --> 00:30:01,680 and yet it did nothing to repair the relationship between myself and my parents. 450 00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,880 And I actually, uh, 451 00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:10,880 Kai Ching Tom was actually the person who raised to my awareness like 452 00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:15,840 very searingly that psychotherapy is 453 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,560 derived from white colonizers, settler paradigms and lenses and approaches. 454 00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:26,240 And when I heard her say that I was actually deeply 455 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,840 immersed in Brene Brown and Dr. 456 00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:35,960 VanDerKolk Bessel VanDerKolk and Stephen Porges and Peter Levine 457 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:41,400 and Bonnie Badnock and the attachment researchers of the 458 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,440 generation before them. 459 00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:48,040 And yet to pause and to tap into a universality of 460 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,520 what secure attachment could possibly mean caused me to 461 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,280 recognize and this is Este Perez's work, right? 462 00:30:56,350 --> 00:30:59,120 That relationships is a relationality with all, 463 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,160 with all things with life itself. Yeah. 464 00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:05,400 Not just our relationship with our parents, it's also our, 465 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,040 I think she keeps it mostly to people. 466 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:12,200 And living here on indigenous land, 467 00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:16,080 there was something that healed for me that I didn't realize was missing 468 00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:20,800 secure attachment to the earth, to nature, 469 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:25,520 to the seasons and the rhythms of nature and the seasons, 470 00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:31,400 how to grow food and where it comes from and how to tend to the earth and how to 471 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,400 hunt and fish 472 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:38,880 and grow and preserve and take what I need and 473 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:39,800 only what I need. 474 00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:45,320 And right in there that small bit there is to recognize that I 475 00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:49,000 had learned a survival oriented relationship to my needs. 476 00:31:49,790 --> 00:31:53,440 That when I experience a need, I go, no, I don't, I don't have needs. 477 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,360 What are you talking about? And when that need becomes overwhelming, 478 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,440 I then go into fight or flight about that need. 479 00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:00,840 You're either on my side or you're in my way. 480 00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:06,720 And then I project that onto other people and I dismiss other 481 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,320 people and their needs as being needy and or I 482 00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:16,240 mistake love as you being able to attune to and connect to and fulfill 483 00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,640 my needs without me needing to ask for it. Because if you loved me, 484 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:20,960 I wouldn't have to ask. 485 00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:27,400 So relating with my own needs and the needs of others, 486 00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,760 the needs of the planet secure relating with ancestors 487 00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:36,080 and not just ancestors who are bloodline ancestors, 488 00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:38,600 but there's also professional ancestors. 489 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,480 A religious ancestors are spiritual ancestors and the teachers of my teachers 490 00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:46,840 and my ancestors with a capital A, right? 491 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,720 The elemental ancestors of earth and wind and fire and and warmth 492 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:52,660 and water. 493 00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:57,560 And when I'm up in the mountains of Alaska on all fours and drinking from 494 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,440 a mountain stream with just my mouth making contact with the 495 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,480 water and my hands and legs on the earth, 496 00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:10,880 I'm connecting with the ancestors who are caribou 497 00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:15,760 and grass and the rain from the rainbow 498 00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:20,520 or through the rainbow that becomes the stream that then moves on into the river 499 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,800 valley. That becomes a glacier, right? 500 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,640 These capital A ancestors. 501 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:32,560 And then there's secure relating to culture and there's an ancient 502 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,080 technology that wes it way through all cultures. Its soul movement, 503 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,120 storytelling or stories and silence. 504 00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:47,400 So to relate securely with these aspects of culture and cultural 505 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520 heritage as well as the rituals, 506 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,200 which are the containers for song and movement and story 507 00:33:55,340 --> 00:34:00,320 and silence that mark the passage across the course of 508 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,280 a human lifetime 509 00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:07,800 as well as the containers of language and customs and food and 510 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640 ways of being and moving in this world. 511 00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:14,920 They give us a sense of kinship as well as 512 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,280 ancestry and ancestral lineage. 513 00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:24,840 And then there's secure attachment relating to my body and to bodies 514 00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:30,680 to touch to a for kind and sensuous relationship 515 00:34:31,350 --> 00:34:34,400 with life around me. In the words of Francis Weller, 516 00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:37,480 where I can feel 517 00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:42,960 the Jew on a fiddlehead fur and smell it 518 00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:50,840 and smell the air that that Jew has passed through and 519 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,800 the earth that that Jew has emerged from this sensuality 520 00:34:56,980 --> 00:35:01,280 and living life through our senses as another way of knowing 521 00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:05,800 and relating. And then there's with the body, 522 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:10,720 it's also secure relating to pleasure, to rest, to sleep, 523 00:35:11,620 --> 00:35:16,160 to joy, to work and to time. 524 00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:21,560 Because all of like this decolonized perspective on secure attachment 525 00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:26,120 is a cosmology. It's a worldview, it's a way of being. 526 00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:28,000 And within that, 527 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,800 particularly that secure attachment relating to time which becomes disrupted 528 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880 within our capitalistic societies, 529 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,760 I then know my place in the bigger scheme of things. 530 00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:46,400 And when we don't experience place where 531 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,520 we belong in the greater scheme of things, 532 00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:53,840 then we become really busy trying to find our place and secure 533 00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:58,280 our place. And we live in a world that says, Hey, 534 00:35:59,020 --> 00:36:03,400 let me give you legitimacy with these letters after your name, 535 00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:05,120 with this next certificate, 536 00:36:05,550 --> 00:36:10,440 with this pay rise and a job title change with a 537 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,360 change in role for some of us, you know, 538 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,640 becoming a parent is actually a way of becoming more legitimate in the world and 539 00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:22,680 in the eyes of our parents. We might get given more legitimacy in the world. 540 00:36:23,620 --> 00:36:28,400 And yet that striving for legitimacy can be born from 541 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,000 a sense of not having experienced place. 542 00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:38,320 And so I feel ever so grateful for my journey of having been displaced and 543 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,880 uprooted in such a way that's proximate and yet distant 544 00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:47,200 meaning that I was two years old that has allowed me to 545 00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:52,320 experience the reverberations and aftermath and work through them 546 00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,400 in such a way that maybe perhaps it might be an offering to 547 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,120 someone out there in the world. 548 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,500 One of the things I love about how you speak about these things as a disruptor 549 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,940 is that you are able to do it in a way that other people 550 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,100 aren't resourced enough. Or another way of saying that is, 551 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,380 as you were describing, kind of the achievement and you know, 552 00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:22,620 all of us on the rabbit wheel and that that's all that we know, 553 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:23,820 that's where we've been pointed. 554 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,940 So there's a way that you really hold that and acknowledge that as you're also 555 00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:32,540 striving to disrupt that, that there you're kind of saying, 556 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,740 and I hope I can be part two of saying like, there's more, there's other paths, 557 00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:40,980 there's other ways and those ideas and those, 558 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,420 the pointers and the it has to form and that, 559 00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:48,860 that's I think some of seems like your journey is like to help 560 00:37:49,450 --> 00:37:54,180 this alternative mode of relating and being and finding oneself 561 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,580 and coming together to create that as a possibility. 562 00:37:57,580 --> 00:38:00,980 Because I don't know that it's a possibility when you look up and the carrot's 563 00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:02,980 right in front of you and you just keep going 'cause that's where you're 564 00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:07,260 supposed to go. But I love the gentleness that you talk about it so that, 565 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,860 you know, wherever we find ourselves on this path, 566 00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:14,860 even under-resourced parents who are also traumatized, 567 00:38:15,090 --> 00:38:16,060 that you know, 568 00:38:16,060 --> 00:38:19,100 there's a way of like seeing them and telling the truth about what happened, 569 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,820 but also really kind of holding them in the, in the same, at the same time. 570 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,180 It feels like what we need as a culture to be able to name it 571 00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:33,700 without blowing it up. Is that right? Or is that me being too, um, 572 00:38:33,850 --> 00:38:36,680 soft about it? You know what I mean? Like, am I saying, 573 00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:39,320 oh we should all be nice as we try to do these things, 574 00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:44,240 which I don't want to be saying , that's not what I mean, 575 00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:46,640 I'm good with, uh, blowing things up if needed. 576 00:38:47,340 --> 00:38:51,520 But there's something I guess about aggression and assertiveness pushing 577 00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:53,800 versus pushing away. 578 00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:58,720 Look, something I say all the time is right message, wrong. 579 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,360 Delivery is wrong message, right message, wrong timing is wrong message. 580 00:39:04,460 --> 00:39:08,800 And in amongst the world of social justice voices, 581 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:14,560 there are times when my nervous system is up here and I'm full of passion 582 00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:20,360 and yet it's very easy for other nervous systems to misinterpret my passion as 583 00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:22,560 aggression or aggressiveness. 584 00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:28,560 It's very easy to misinterpret excitement as I'm gonna be overwhelmed by that. 585 00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:33,800 And there have been times when my nervous system is down here and 586 00:39:34,540 --> 00:39:38,640 I'm pacing things more slowly and there are other nervous systems in the space 587 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,440 that are like, come on, I want you to ramp it up, like give it to me with a, 588 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,720 with a passionate delivery. And so I get, 589 00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:52,680 and I hold with so much love that we each 590 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,000 have different nervous systems. 591 00:39:55,540 --> 00:40:00,400 And to be able to just hold that and to find the 592 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,800 resource that you need for you, the resource that I need for me, 593 00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:10,400 so that I can continue to be myself and know 594 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,960 that I am enough in this world as I am. 595 00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:18,010 And I hope that it can be okay that today I have a gentle delivery 596 00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:23,250 and that it doesn't get misinterpreted as, you know, 597 00:40:24,370 --> 00:40:28,890 a weaponizing of calmness and a lack of passion for the topic. 598 00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:34,090 I also get that for many folks out there being able to hear some of the things 599 00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:38,890 that I've said today in like with the nervous system I'm currently inhabiting is 600 00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:42,930 actually the delivery that is meeting 601 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,050 your nervous system. 602 00:40:47,230 --> 00:40:49,290 And if that is what you learned from today, 603 00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:52,770 I mean this is something I I've I've been cognizant of for a while, 604 00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:58,470 is that when I learn how I learn, I can learn anything. 605 00:40:59,650 --> 00:41:03,670 And as someone who started out teaching meditation and teaching yoga, 606 00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:07,070 I was taught that teaching is the art of observation. 607 00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:11,270 So when I learn how you learn, I can teach you anything. 608 00:41:12,810 --> 00:41:16,310 And more importantly, when I learn how you learn, 609 00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:21,830 I can teach you how you learn and then you can go 610 00:41:22,290 --> 00:41:24,470 and learn anything you wanna learn. 611 00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:29,070 So let me just ask a point of clarification. 612 00:41:29,210 --> 00:41:33,760 So when I said a moment ago about the balance between disruptive and 613 00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:35,100 did, 614 00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:38,880 did I come across as saying that there was anything wrong with your delivery? 615 00:41:39,580 --> 00:41:41,480 Mm-hmm. Okay. No, because. 616 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,920 When you went there I was like, oh no, that's not what I meant. , 617 00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:46,200 but . See how it happens? . 618 00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:52,040 So I just wanted to check it out. , 619 00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:58,880 it's like that would be terrible . 620 00:42:00,790 --> 00:42:01,800 It's like you're . 621 00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:06,600 No, not at all, Sue. Not at all. Okay. 622 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,200 Okay. Yeah. 623 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,480 Good, good, good. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Well, 624 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,320 I love this dance and I know that many people that are 625 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760 listening are just as moved as I am and you know, 626 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,920 what are next steps? Where would you direct people? 627 00:42:22,540 --> 00:42:25,400 You know the folks that are just excited and like, yes, that. 628 00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:31,120 If I land into emergence and I speak into that, which is emergent for me, 629 00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:37,560 what my invitation would be would be to invite you to step into that 630 00:42:37,630 --> 00:42:41,360 emergence for yourself, right? Whatever emerges for you. 631 00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:44,400 Because when we can name that which emerges, 632 00:42:44,430 --> 00:42:49,400 what happens is then the world will present us 633 00:42:49,470 --> 00:42:51,160 with the next piece. 634 00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:54,880 And the world is actually always presenting us with the next piece. 635 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:59,280 We just don't see it because we're not in alignment with emergence. 636 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,880 I love your answer by the way, 637 00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:07,200 otherwise there's just a new carrot and you took the carrot away and it 638 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,480 is like, no, the carrot isn't here, it's more of tuning in. 639 00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:13,640 And I really get that it's our responsibility. 640 00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:18,960 There's not just something to sign up for or something to go do that really 641 00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:22,840 is this practice of, you know, we talk about it on the show, 642 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,760 it's like secure relating related to like come back to yourself like being 643 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,960 your right size. You don't have to be bigger, 644 00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:33,120 you don't have to stand on your tippy toes, , you don't have to run, 645 00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:36,640 you don't have, you know what I mean? You don't have to shrink and huddle. 646 00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:39,400 It's like, what is your right size right now? 647 00:43:40,180 --> 00:43:42,120 So I think a little bit of different language, but the same thing, 648 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,680 it's like what's emergent for you, the listener as you're hearing now. 649 00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:51,280 Like it's right there. There's, you know, there's no way someone that we have, 650 00:43:51,340 --> 00:43:54,280 you know, out here of a disembodied voice can tell you. 651 00:43:55,180 --> 00:43:59,640 And that's what I so admire is you didn't take the bait of that question and you 652 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,400 were able to pull it back in. It's like it's inward, it's, there's not gonna, 653 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:07,280 I'm not gonna give you a link or a book or a program. 654 00:44:08,780 --> 00:44:09,800 So thank you for that. 655 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,960 And I think that that's very consistent with the conversation and the message. 656 00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:17,080 Like it's, it's more of a discovery, like discovery. What's next? 657 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,400 I don't know what's next for you. 658 00:44:19,860 --> 00:44:24,800 Yes. And I love that word discovery and the process and the journey of 659 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,760 self-discovery. So many people come to therapy and I see this with my clients. 660 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,360 They want me to get to know them and I name that and I 661 00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,400 then name, you know, therapy is the process of you getting to know you. 662 00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:42,200 It's a huge difference. And within all of this, 663 00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:47,720 whether the conversation is about racism or sexism or ableism or transphobia 664 00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:54,400 is the opportunity and the possibility of the invitation that 665 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,280 white bodied folks, that cisgender folks, that heterosexual folks, 666 00:44:59,940 --> 00:45:04,400 the able-bodied folks that you'll actually get to know more about yourself 667 00:45:06,340 --> 00:45:08,520 in this process. Mm-hmm. . 668 00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:11,400 You know, the person on the treadmill that's successful. 669 00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:15,880 You don't even know what you're missing. When we work with, you know, 670 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,080 white men who have, 671 00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:20,080 are just part of the patriarchy in the sense that they've absorbed it and 672 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,760 they're injured too because they haven't had the benefit of the feedback right 673 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,200 away or the immediate pressing back in the way that many of us have. 674 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,520 I mean, it's pain no matter what direction it is that you're coming from, 675 00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:37,160 it's not the same. It's not like, you know, it's not equating anything. 676 00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:41,840 But I like that position because there's compassion all the way around 677 00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:46,920 with the limit of, you know, stop the intrusion. 678 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,080 I I didn't wanna get on a roll . No, no. So I stopped myself . 679 00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:53,320 Those. 680 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,800 Masters out there, . 681 00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:57,073 . 682 00:45:59,630 --> 00:46:02,680 That defeat, that defeats what I was trying to say. But it is, but it's, 683 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,960 I really do mean that um, you know, that we're all injured by it. 684 00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:10,520 So I'm glad for the inclusive language at the end round. It doesn't, 685 00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:15,480 even if you heteronormative able bodied the script, if you fit the script, 686 00:46:15,630 --> 00:46:20,440 it's still uniquely a loss of so many parts of you. 687 00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:21,820 Yes. 688 00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:26,760 And the willingness to become transformed by 689 00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:31,760 the process of what you'll discover about yourself or what one discovers 690 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,440 about oneself. That's the joy in allyship. Yeah. 691 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,560 And that's the difference between performative allyship and true 692 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,880 allyship. And it's a process. It's a process. 693 00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:48,640 It's my parents turning around and saying to me, 694 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,760 I wanted to grow as a result of bringing you into this world. 695 00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:59,640 And that willingness to grow means growing pains and discomfort and 696 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,800 the willingness to reckon with that. 697 00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:06,320 Mm-hmm and to not know and to let go of all of these things that 698 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,320 have shielded us and buffered us and privileged us and protected us. 699 00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:15,800 It is. And I'm so grateful that you invited me onto your show, 700 00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:16,893 Sue . 701 00:47:19,310 --> 00:47:20,480 Well I cannot tell you, 702 00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:23,440 I've been really excited about this and I just wanna sort of sit at your knee 703 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,480 and just keep listening. But there are ways, 704 00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,360 you have many things that you do to spread this incredible wisdom. Uh, 705 00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:33,440 we speak just briefly to that and let us know how to tap in those of the 706 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:34,400 listeners that would like more. 707 00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:39,040 Yes, I have a website, uh, www.lindatie.com. 708 00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:41,320 Please sign up for the newsletter. 709 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,960 I don't do one of those sales pitching newsletters. 710 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,960 I do one of those newsletters of what I'm up to and what I'm unlearning and what 711 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,080 is nourishing me and you know, the things that I offer into the world, 712 00:47:53,110 --> 00:47:57,160 some of which is paid for and some of which is free to the public, uh, 713 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,800 some of which is sponsored by other agencies or organizations. 714 00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:05,640 And so there's ways in which to connect and keep in touch with me. 715 00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:10,400 And in the newsletters I also celebrate the work of other people out there. 716 00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:11,680 So it's not one of those, 717 00:48:12,350 --> 00:48:15,200 here let me sell you something and tell you all about , 718 00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:18,640 how awesome I am in terms of my expert knowledge. 719 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,040 , it is not a sales funnel , right? 720 00:48:23,020 --> 00:48:24,240 Is that the fancy word? 721 00:48:24,860 --> 00:48:27,480 That's the fancy word. That's the fancy word. You know, 722 00:48:27,490 --> 00:48:31,000 click here to get this free something or another and then you put in your email, 723 00:48:31,060 --> 00:48:33,840 you know, it's, yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. 724 00:48:34,540 --> 00:48:35,373 It is terrible. 725 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,080 . Well it is, it's the, it's it's the carrot again. The carrot, 726 00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:44,440 the carrot, the carrot, you know, so that's wonderful. 727 00:48:44,460 --> 00:48:48,680 So we'll we will put all of that in the show notes and any other resources that 728 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:49,513 you share with me, 729 00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:53,840 go to therapist and sensor.com and then there's a search function and you can 730 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,760 put anything that you wanna know about. But Linda Tai, 731 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,840 t h a i is who has blessed us with her experience and 732 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,680 wisdom and we also wanna acknowledge that it is a real gift for you to 733 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:07,513 share your story. 734 00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:11,680 That it's not something that you have to do and really appreciate that. 735 00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:13,280 Alright everybody, 736 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,200 thank you very much for joining us and for sticking through this beautiful 737 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,640 conversation and we really encourage you to share it with someone that you feel 738 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,480 could benefit. That's all I'm gonna ask is just, just share the word. 739 00:49:26,190 --> 00:49:28,400 Alright, thanks for listening. We'll see you around the bed. 740 00:49:29,310 --> 00:49:32,200 We'd like to thank a long-term sponsor of our show, AG one. 741 00:49:32,590 --> 00:49:35,160 I've been taking it daily for quite some time now, 742 00:49:35,450 --> 00:49:37,920 which for me is amazing 'cause I forget things a lot. 743 00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:43,080 But I make a real effort to take AG one regularly because it basically gives me 744 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,840 all the good things. It has high quality vitamins, whole foods sourced, 745 00:49:46,890 --> 00:49:49,080 superfoods, probiotic, and adaptogens, 746 00:49:49,570 --> 00:49:53,320 which serve to calm down your overeager stress response system. You know, 747 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,153 we would like that. 748 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,560 I feel good about recommending that you try it and encouraging you to keep 749 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,200 taking it. If you are already on board, 750 00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:03,920 go to athletic greens.com/therapist uncensored and use that link 751 00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:08,480 'cause our listeners will get a free year supply of vitamin B and free travel 752 00:50:08,530 --> 00:50:10,640 packs for you to be able to take the superpower on the road. 753 00:50:10,940 --> 00:50:15,560 That's athletic greens.com/therapist uncensored. 754 00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:22,760 Therapist. 755 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,160 Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. 756 00:50:25,230 --> 00:50:27,680 This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.