For those of you out there that we were trying to distinguish between feeling
secure and being secure.
This is a good one because if you are just feeling secure,
then you think I don't need influence. I'm confident I know what I mean.
I know what it I, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.
And I don't need somebody else telling me what to do.
I don't need somebody else telling me how to raise my child.
I don't need somebody else. Fill in the blank.
If that's what you're saying to yourself,
I want you to realize that that is you in a protective,
insecure state because a secure way of relating and a secure attachment,
Juan says, I need influence. I need others.
There are a lot of people smarter than me and there's a lot of people that I can
help. And that is a secure way of connection.
Welcome to Therapist Uncensored, building on decades of professional experience.
This podcast tackles neurobiology,
modern attachment and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans.
Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to Therapist Uncensored. I am Anne Kelly and.
I'm Sue Marriott. And we.
Realize that we have done an episode on the different types
of insecure attachment protection strategies,
but we've never actually talked directly or done a whole one on what is secure
attachment.
I like to call it secure protective strategies and connective strategies,
but what does secure attachment look like?
So we decided to dedicate a whole episode to security, which is great.
Yeah, 'cause it's all bad news. Always. Constantly. Yeah,
we're always talking . So this'll be a,
this'll be a feel good episode because this is true that when we talk
about security, it primes security. It's true.
So.
Let's feel good together.
I like it. And as we think about what creates security, it gives us something.
Many of you out there probably came from the kind of background where you have a
secure background and you have a secure attachment. And some of us, I don't.
Think that's true. .
. Well more the majority.
I think everybody listening to this podcast probably has some color in their
history. .
Well that's true,
but we can have lots of color in our backgrounds and still have a secure base,
right?
You can have a secure base with pockets of insecurity or you could have a
background where you kinda live more in your protective red or your
more protective blue or tie dye. But let's talk about what security looks like.
What is a secure attachment about?
So when Anne's mentioning the red and the blue,
the way that we talk about attachment is we're bringing in out of the research
categories of insecure and secure or anything that's a box
because human beings are complex and even if you fit in that box,
it doesn't matter because you're not always there. So if I'm dismissing,
I'm not always dismissive. So we like to talk about it on a continuum.
And we use colors that sort of represent the feel of the defense.
So she mentioned red is the upregulated, like more anxious. Preoccupied.
Means that you've kind of learned that you have to kind of,
your nervous system learns. It has to stay on alert and emotionally aware,
kind of emotionally intense. That's where your protective system goes.
When you hit stress.
You hyper activate on the red side and then on blue you hypo activates
your attachment system turns down. So that's why we, it's blue, it's cool.
, . So we've done podcasts on both of those.
So green she mentioned, which is the secure,
and then tie dye she also mentioned,
which is the folks that don't fit quite in those, the others.
And that's such a complicated conversation around what used to be called
disorganized. It's the least understood category. We call it tie eye.
It's a mix of things. A mix of strategies. And we don't live in tie eye,
but sometimes we can get disorganized. And.
What's important about not living, including secure 'cause.
We're gonna talk about green and secure today.
And we call it green because it's kind of a ghost state.
It's more of our open state.
But these parts of our systems get activated mostly during stress
and stress when our attachment system feels at threat.
So we don't typically live there. So this is like,
you might find yourself living in more of a secure place,
but when you get activated you end up leaning red or blue.
Or you might find that your history has been such that you kind of primarily
remain more in one color or the next.
So that's what you're meaning when you say we don't just live in one or the
other and different relationships bring out different things.
Right.
And that's one of the cool things about the spectrum that we talk about is we've
got the map on the spectrum,
which is where we live kind of more in concrete patterns. So let's say that I'm,
I live quote or I rest,
my nervous system rests more blue where I'm a little bit more zipped up,
a little bit more independent. But when I get upset, it doesn't mean I go blue.
I might go more blue, but I also might go red, I might go tie D,
hopefully I'm staying in the green. So yeah, there's a lot of flexibility.
There's states and traits. So living in something,
what we don't really live in it, but like, um, our,
our more persistent pattern is a represented by a map on the spectrum.
And then the spectrum itself is the states.
And so green as a map or as a state looks like what?
So that's when our early learning and our early
experiences have generally led us to believe that our
environment is gonna be there for us.
The people that are caretaking us are gonna be there. They're trustworthy.
We can kind of rely on them.
They're there enough for us to feel safe,
but not so much that we don't develop our own sense of our own self,
our own being, our own agency over time.
So a secure way of relating, a secure way of attachment says, man,
my world's pretty trustworthy and so am I.
I mean I used to joke about that secure attachment was like Bigfoot, you know,
everybody reports about it and stuff like that.
But have you ever really seen one? But that actually isn't true.
Generally more than 50% of people will test as secure.
It's always so confusing to talk about because the testing is so different,
right? Self-report is one thing versus the unconscious limbic, you know,
developmental attachment. But especially if you're not very blue,
then generally you're probably more secure than you think you are.
And that pans out so that if you tend to go red,
you know that you get preoccupied, you know that you're in distress,
you know that you have issues and you might even think it's worse than it is.
And if you tend to lean green,
you will probably be aware that you dysregulate and that you do dumb things and
that you act like a jerk sometimes and stuff like that.
Sometimes it's hard for us to see our greenness . Right?
Right.
Then if you tend to lean blue,
you will likely overestimate your security and your green zone.
Those would be taken with a little bit of a grain of salt.
Well, and that's been shown by research that's not just Ann and Schisms,
that if you run in the blue that you're more likely to idolize some of your
childhood rearing and to overestimate your sense of security.
And so that's why in this episode,
we want all of you to kinda listen to what really constitutes a secure
attachment.
'cause it might surprise you because having a secure attachment base is not the
same thing as feeling secure. It's not confidence, it's not thinking, you know,
more than everybody else around you. So that's what, it's not what it is.
It's the ability to maintain connections, deep fulfilling connections.
So somebody has a secure base,
they rely on other people and they feel confidence in themselves.
So if somebody feels so confident in themselves that they can't rely on other
people,
that's likely means that their nervous system is actually not in this place of
trust. So a secure connection, a secure attachment,
trust other people,
they trust themselves and they feel comfortable having closeness.
That's a real key.
Yeah, that's a good one. You know,
the word that comes to my mind with security is the word integration.
And Dan Siegel talks about this from a neurological standpoint,
but integration of thoughts and feelings,
integration of brain and body integration of top of the brain and bottom of the
brain, left of the brain, left hemisphere, right hemisphere, limbic,
higher cortical. The idea being that there's a balance.
Anne and I have talked a lot about the connection and protection systems,
the connection system being the green stuff that we're talking about,
the protection system being the other. We need both,
but we need them to cooperate. . We don't want our protection system,
you know,
elbowing over our goodwill to protect us when we don't want it
overreacting. Or once we do get safe after we're threatened,
we want the green to come back online pretty quickly.
So basically security means that there's a cooperation and integration between
our protection system and our connection system. How's that?
That was great. I loved it. .
Look, I a, I asked for feedback. isn't that, isn't that secure?
That's a sign of secure actually.
And you gave and you gave a compliment. , that's also a sign of secure.
. That's so true. Actually.
That is literally a sign that you're kind of in your protective state.
If you can't tell somebody you did a good job or well,
let's put it in a sign of security. I keep going to what's red and what's blue.
I mean, I need to-ing I know it's so easy to do.
So let's say a sign of security, a sign of a,
a secure attachment is that the connection to somebody else doesn't feel
threatening. So that means being able to give them a sense of yourself,
giving them a compliment, being able to join feels more natural.
It's not threatening. Now,
intellectually it can sound like I like to join people,
I go out and have beers with my friends. Right? The question is,
are you joining?
Think about the idea of joining means like somebody's in there having a,
telling a success that they have. What does it make you feel inside?
It's natural sometimes to feel a little bit of jealousy,
but when you're in a secure base of attachment,
you can really feel joy for the other person and you can join them. You can say,
that is amazing. You did such a great job.
It doesn't hit a threat button where you're ready to tell your own story before
they finish telling theirs.
So a sign of integration is that you can hold yourself,
you own sense of self-worth while somebody else is experiencing theirs.
It's not a competition.
Oh, I think you said that so well, thank you.
Like.
. I wasn't even joking. I I actually really did mean that.
I thought that came out really great.
.
What I would just add to that is kind of the other way too.
So I think this idea of joining is really important because there is a way that
you have to set yourself aside for a second.
So let's say you're telling me about Covid. Oh my god, I got Covid.
And you begin to talk about it. And if I say, man,
when I had covid da da da da or I've never had covid or, or you know,
John had covid and he like,
if I command the attention and pull it back to myself,
that's not joining.
But what would be joining would be you're saying you have covid.
And so then I stick with you and I might say, oh my God, how do you feel?
How do you think you got it? What are you doing? What do you need?
Like in other words, things keep going back and keep going back.
And I try to help and build out her narrative, but I do that freely.
Like it's not hurting me. Or even if I can't wait to tell her how bad I had it,
I'm able to hold that so that I've joined her and given her the experience of
feeling heard and feeling cared for.
That's perfect. Let's talk about that just for one second.
In terms of neural integration, 'cause you just mentioned the word integration.
What does that have to do with what you just said? And that is,
for me to sit and hold your story,
I have to hold what is might be active in my body that if I don't have attention
I'm dropped.
Or if I don't ma like there's all sorts of insecurity that could be coming up in
me that I don't recognize,
which makes me dominate and take over and tell my own story.
An integration of this is you exist and I exist in the same light.
So when you are talking, I actually,
my body feels relaxed and able to join you because I'm not in protection,
I'm not in fear.
And so I wanna help people feel that in their body as they're talking.
If somebody's talking, do you feel activated?
Do you feel distracted with your thoughts?
Because if it's really hard to do that,
it might be sign a sign that you're having a hard time staying in your more
secure related place.
Like the other side of that would be like you're, you know,
we're talking about domination.
The other would be that I'm gonna ask questions and ask questions and ask
questions and ask questions. Oh, good point.
So that I don't have to talk about myself. And that when they,
with the attention turns and everyone, every,
all eyes are on me and I'm supposed to share something.
Mm-hmm that,
that's very frightening because that I have learned to kind of get
small and disappear and make other people big and make other people feel good.
Again, we're not trying to say kind of how that that's,
but the idea would be when the attention turned to me going back to secure is
that, you know,
it's not like I'm not gonna feel awkward or that I might not get squirmy,
but the idea is that the feeling is more manageable and then I can take the mic
so to speak,
or I can take the time or I can take the attention or I can take my turn.
That's actually another good one is turn taking that there's a natural turn
taking in conversation.
And the turn taking is about being able to be sensitive and attuned. Right?
A big sign of secure attachment is the ability to be attuned to others,
attuned to self and attuned to others. So when you're turn taking,
you're able to be attuned to their needs and your body feels alive and alert
for them. It's not just holding your breath. 'cause sometimes in turn taking,
we're holding our breath, okay, you take a turn, we're just.
Waiting for a turn. . Exactly.
We're turn taking, but if you're holding your breath waiting for your turn,
it probably means that you're not sort of completely present.
So a secure attachment,
you're able to stay because your body feels more trust,
you're living more in your connection system.
That's what secure attachment's about. So if I'm in my connection system,
then I'm actually interested. I'm not just turn taking,
I'm actually interested in what you're saying is lighting me up.
It's making me think of things I've not thought about or I'm learning about you.
And so the desire to know somebody, the desire to tune in without,
like you said before,
disappearing is a sign that we're in our secure attached self.
Let's say you're going on and on or you're saying something really big and I
notice that I begin to feel envy or say I notice disinterest.
Like I'm like, oh my god, she's going on and on .
So I don't wanna make secure like Pollyanna. Oh good point.
Keep going. 'cause that's so.
True, right? It's not Pollyanna.
Because maybe you're the secure attached one and I am going on and on and on and
on. You're really aware of that.
And and I'm aware and but,
but rather than either letting myself get flooded or interrupting
and just cutting, you know,
just stopping the situation basically I have more bandwidth.
I can think God Anne's really excited about this , she's going on and on.
What is going on?
Like I can have that conversation in my mind because you also have.
Curiosity.
Which would then Exactly, which would help me amplify.
Like if you're really excited about something,
then I'm gonna ask you even more questions. Like,
I'm gonna help you show off this beautiful thing that you're talking about.
I'm paying attention to what's going on with you that you're going on and on.
But I'm also paying attention to me like by being curious about you,
that is taking care of me to some degree.
Or let's just say you're just being narcissistic and taking over the
conversation . And I notice I'm like,
oh she's really not tending to me at all. Again,
we wanna more talk about states. If I'm in a more secure state of mind,
then I'll be more likely to be able to respond either by whatever I wanna do may
do. I have the energy to push in. Uh, let's see,
I'm gonna insert myself and really begin talking about myself.
So it'll give her something to ask me about.
Basically I'll have a range of ways to take up my fair share of the talking
time and not expect her to, you know,
not be waiting and keep going to the back of the line. 'cause she keeps talking.
Well that's allowing myself to be dominated when I'm in a secure state.
Maybe I even get mad, maybe I'm pissed,
but that doesn't mean I'm not in a secure state.
It means I'm noticing my feelings and then thinking about what to do about them
and how to best respond rather than react.
Oh, I love that. Well you know,
you keep bringing up secure state and we're talking about a secure attachment.
I like that. Let's talk about how those relate. Because
we mentioned 50% more than 50% out there likely have a secure attachment
base and others don't. But that doesn't mean.
Right, depending on the population, depending on the country,
all the things but Right. Yeah,
there's a lot of securely attached people that will score even on, you know,
the AI and the ones that look at the unconscious.
So if I have a secure base,
that doesn't mean I'm always in a secure relating moment.
I could like be having a really crappy day or a month or I've been in a
relationship for a period of time that my body's completely activated in more of
a blue red,
or maybe I don't live as much in the green,
but I can be in a secure relating moment.
So that's why we love to talk about the continuum,
both state and attachment base because no matter
where we live in our more embedded attachment strategy,
we can always work to relate in a more secure way. Every day,
every moment. And as we do,
we do actually light up our more secure related attachment style.
We can move it, we can become less red, less blue,
and more green in our overall attachment strategies as we age.
The more we engage in secure relating ways of being.
And you don't even need therapy. You know, like really good relationships.
There's lots of ways to move your map towards green. Many, many ways.
And another thing I was thinking was just going back for a minute and
some of the conditions that promote security,
that typically kids that end up with a secure map,
or we might call it internal working model or a pattern of security in their
nervous system and integration,
typically have had parents that often are secure themselves or have done a lot
of work to earn it to themselves or that they've just learned the
skills. 'cause you can have a secure child even if you're not secure.
Isn't that great news? That.
Is great news. Yeah.
Yeah. But they typically will be responsive.
First thing is they'll be protective. That's the very first thing.
They'll be communicative, they'll be available,
they'll be attuned.
You're talking about the parenting, um, promotes, I'm talking.
About the parent promotes, right? That promotes right attunement,
which means accurate attunement.
So instead of the child picks up a guitar and you know,
I take the guitar to show them how great of a guitar player I am.
That's not attunement. Even though you think, oh look,
I'm playing it with my kid with the guitar.
What's attunement is that the kid wanted to play the guitar.
I remember when you were playing the violin with our niece,
our niece's niece, no, our niece's child who, what would that be?
A second niece? Anyway,
you were so good at meeting her where she was, even though you knew how to play.
And she would pick it up like I was like cringing that like she's picking up
this nice instrument and she was young, you know what I mean?
And like banging it around and stuff and you were just letting her do it and
letting her kind of struggle with it and letting her find the bow and letting
her find the strings. That's attunement. What I was doing was not attunement,
, I was feeling more protective of the, of the violin. Um, not,
I mean, not really. I was so happy that you were able to do that.
Hopefully if I had been alone, I would've been right there with you.
But you already had that part down. But anyways, uh, soothed, protected,
being attuned. The, uh, oh,
the other really big part of promoting security is promoting the
mind of the child separate from your own. So it's not just closeness,
it's also when the child gets ready to be put down, you put them down.
Even when the infant looks away, you don't force them to look at you. You,
you let them take a break in their eye with their eyes and their face.
But the child is, you know, wanting a little alone time.
If you're lonely then you've gotta just deal with your loneliness.
I remember one time I looked over the crib at my sleeping child
and I literally thought he wants me to pick him up ,
which is re absurd, right? Because he's asleep, he's happy,
like don't bother him. And so I was able to catch, no, I want to pick him up.
This is my desire, not his desire. So that's an example of, you know, like,
okay, if I had just picked him up and thought he needed to be picked up,
you know, we can exaggerate that.
I mean we could extrapolate that into other ways that that manifests.
But point being it's like whose need is it and the attunement is actually
accurate and that we're supporting the child's exploration and they're going
away and their separateness as much as we're supporting,
they're coming close and refueling with us. That's a good way to say it.
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Sometimes that attachment,
the idea of attachment out there has almost made parents nervous to set a
boundary, to set a limit. It's like, oh,
I'm supposed to be perfectly attuned to this child and they need,
that is not attachment, that is not security.
The world is hard and we are helping them develop a protection and connection
system in the real world as it exists.
Not in some ideal world that's perfectly attuned to them because the world will
not be perfectly attuned to your child or to you.
And if we think it's supposed to be that way,
then we chronically feel a sense of being let down,
a sense of being disappointed. So ironically,
sometimes we can create more insecurity by having the child
believe that they should never be disappointed or that I need to be preoccupied
with all their needs and make sure that they never have a disappointing
vacation. Because if they do,
they experience a feeling of disappointment or loss.
So part of securely relating to that child is letting them have that
disappointment, connecting with them and being able to go, that is rough.
You really did wanna do that. Ooh. And we couldn't do that. That is hard.
It's.
But when we say attunement, we don't wanna have the message be, you know,
matching mirrors. It's.
Not merger. It is not merger.
Which is also true. Now let's go back to secure relating attachment as an adult.
That many of what we were just saying about parenting is also true about your
primary relationship. Obviously there's some differences,
but what are secure relating?
Secure attachment is in a primary relationship.
It's that you can hold yourself and allow somebody to feel disappointment,
but feel compassion and care for them and stay connected to that rather
than I have to disappear to meet their needs or they have to disappear to meet
my needs.
So a secure attachment is we both have needs and we can both deal
with the, with the competition of needs in a way that's loving and caring.
You know? And I think the key to that is, is mutuality.
Like neither relationship, and again, this is a dyad,
it might be a sister or a friend or a,
a polyamorous relationship. It doesn't matter.
The idea being that there is mutuality and even if you're,
you mutually agree to different roles and things like that, that's fine.
But still the base is you have an equal voice,
which means that we allow ourselves to influence our partner or our close
person.
And both we also allow ourselves to be influenced and probably
most of us have, it's easier to do one than the other . Yeah.
Actually for, that's a great way to put it.
So let's just take a second out there and think about it.
Like take a moment before we keep going.
How comfortable are you being influenced by somebody and how
comfortable are you influencing? Because that is a real sign of security.
So those of you out there that like, I need to take a committee all the time.
Like if I'm in the middle of always needing to take a committee,
I'm having a hard time knowing that I can actually influence others and they can
be let down.
Right?
So take a committee you mean making a decision and declaring yourself without a
focus group, without.
A focus group. How does everybody else think of that? Right, exactly.
And and so the opposite is also true for those of you out there that we were
trying to distinguish between feeling secure and being secure.
This is a good one because if you are just feeling secure,
then you think I don't need influence. I'm confident I know what I mean.
I know what it I,
I say what I mean and I mean what I say and I don't need somebody else telling
me what to do. I don't need somebody else telling me how to raise my child.
I don't need somebody else. Fill in the blank.
If that's what you're saying to yourself,
I want you to realize that that is you in a protective, insecure state.
Because a secure way of relating and a secure attachment, Juan says,
I need influence, I need others.
There are a lot of people smarter than me and there's a lot of people that I can
help. And that is a secure way of connection.
I love that. I,
I think that's great and and there's even research showing that the less
influenced that you are, in other words,
the more power that you have in a organization or in a family anywhere,
the more power you have,
it causes changes in your brain similar to a traumatic brain injury.
And the reason is that when we're not being given live feedback about how we're
coming across.
You mean like, so if you're in a position of power where people,
you don't have to take influence,
you get to give directions and you get to tell people what to do. That's right.
But you don't really have to take any feedback unless of course you pay for it
over there in a consultation. That's kind of what you're speaking of.
I don't have to take influence. And.
It's a combination. It's not just that people stop giving influence,
but it's also that the person in power, let's say if I'm the C E O,
not only do I have fewer and fewer people give me live feedback
that is different than maybe what I think, you know,
that's more challenging to me. But that I need, that begins to reduce,
but also my reading the room reduces.
Your ability to read the room.
Yeah, well the um, there's actual changes in the mirror neuron systems.
You know how like if I see someone cringe,
I know the feeling of that because I can feel the internal cringe.
The more power you have, the less that you fire.
When you see emotion in other people, you typically,
you begin to reduce requesting feedback, you begin to reduce getting it.
But then even just neurologically,
you begin to miss signs around you that are being conveyed
and that that is actually really damaging you.
You begin to lose function basically.
And you're much more prone to make bad decisions.
It's not like the higher up you go the better it is.
It's actually you're more and more and more vulnerable to, you know,
we've talked about, we've talked about close relationships.
Buffering is from stress.
Well the higher you go and if you're not turning to people,
just like you said earlier, if I don't think I need anyone, I,
my body's gonna be actually in more stress, I might bypass it, but you put uh,
skin galvanizing response or if you look at other physiological signs of stress,
it's up there.
So this notion of having influence and being influenced is really important. So.
Is it's kind of like if you don't use it, you lose it if you don't use it. Yeah.
And, and you think about that, so you might feel that might feel good, right?
You don't ever have to take influence on some level it can feel powerful and
that can be, you don't.
You don't care what they think.
Right? And that's the,
the sense of us needing power instead of connection is a sign of insecurity.
So when we are thriving on power at a cost of connection
and empowerment, we are suffering and our relationships are suffering.
So take that exact person whose sense of mere neurons have turned down
the ability to respond to the emotions of others and put them in a relationship
with somebody or a parent to somebody.
And you could see how that is gonna really negatively impact those
connections and how you relate.
Yeah. And if you're not sure, then check in with your kids.
Like if you know that you kind of are in a little bit of that more influential
power position, there's two things. One is check in with people,
like really actively see how your kids are feeling with you and don't accept
their first thing. I'm fine, everything's fine, it's good. Well I don't know,
you know what I mean?
But really see if you can get them to open up and really let you know kind of
what they need more of, what they need less of.
Like really try to grease those wheels. So that's one thing.
But the other thing would be,
especially if you're just kind of in that kind of unfair advantage
on top of a pile, like the king of the hill sort of thing.
If you're way up there from in an entertainment or in your work,
be sure and keep people around you that will tell you how it really is.
Like you need your gestures if you will.
You need the people who will be honest with you and tune into them and you
should really listen to them because what they have to say is very valuable.
Even if you don't agree with them,
they're speaking for larger group most likely.
And if you ha But.
Anyway, here we, we've just drifted into talking about, uh,
not secure relating I I agree. I heard that.
But I was gonna turn it.
So if you're listening to this podcast and you're relating to that,
you're reflecting and you're thinking,
I really do need to ask some people about this. I really need to check myself.
The chances are you're probably in a more secure relating way if you're out
there going, eh, forget it. Right? So if you're out there going, oh my God,
I'm really curious about whether I do that. I'm really curious.
I wanna ask people,
do you feel like you get to influence me If you're willing to ask that question
and you're willing to be curious about the answer and open to it,
you're already in a more green position.
Rather than the yes no, I would say on a scale of one to 10,
how influenceable am I or something Or how free do you feel to influence me
so that you won't get the yes no. Right?
And then the other thing is that if you're in a partnership with,
in whatever way that partnership, you know, friend, whatever,
if you're close with someone who yields more power,
then hear this. They need the information you're holding.
It does not help them for you to not say and to not give them live feedback
about how they spoke to the waiter or whatever the thing is that you're not
saying like you're holding information that really belongs to the both of you
that they need.
So we wanna really encourage you to take your fair share of the influence and to
see if you can find your authentic voice, your right sized voice,
not on your tiptoes and not crunch down, but just your voice. Say it,
say it proud. I mean this is security, right?
And allow them to have their feelings and talked about disappointment earlier or
offense or whatever it is. Allow them to have their feelings.
It's not your responsibility, but you're gonna stay connected to them.
Oh you know, it's a little hard to get that feedback.
It was a little embarrassing for them to get caught doing that.
And you're connected to yourself, which is, wow, that was hard to say.
Good job that you got it out and you said it. Those.
Are all really clear signs of being more in the green,
A more secure way of relating, being able to hold that i,
I was thinking of another one and that is being in a relationship, we,
we keep talking about being connected to people and being able to receive
influence and give influence.
There's this idea of also feeling like I can be close with
somebody and not lose my identity or lose my sense of self.
And I think that's a real sign of secure relating.
And that is I can feel close and I don't feel threatened that my sense of
independence is gonna be lost.
I can be close and I don't give myself up.
I don't fear engulfment and I don't fear loss of self.
And so a secure relating individual says,
oh I can be close to you and I can really enjoy it.
But I also have my independence though they both, it's an and.
I love that. And you know,
I was just thinking we should think about it inside ourselves and by
secure and by the green. We're talking about ventral vagal.
We're talking about our higher functioning mind,
we're talking about oxytocin and we've talked in other podcasts about being able
to identify are you in that state or connection system or our protection system.
So for me, again, I mean and this is like everybody, like I will assume,
I will think I'm in the green state more than I probably am .
But when we're actually activated, when we're actually activated,
we often don't know that we're activated because we have these distortions that
happen. So for me it's like there really is like a physical,
I can feel, uh,
my heart sometimes I even imagine like a line that goes between my heart to the
other person's heart. That's a really good sign for me, .
And another one for me is pace that when I'm in a more secure state,
like I'm back in my spinal cord, like I'm further back.
Like rather than like leaning forward and going, going, going.
I mean I can be in a secure state and active like that,
but being able to take deep breaths and have a slower pace
and have patience and have space for myself
and my own thoughts and space for you and your thoughts and others.
Those are all to me signs of like, I am doing pretty good here in the green.
What about you? Yeah.
'Cause you don't have a sense of urgency. When we're in our protection system,
we have a sense of pressure, a sense of urgency.
And so when you recognize that you're not in a sense of urgency, you can tell.
Yeah, because also like let's say I'm urgently trying to get to the airport.
Yeah.
.
Right? That there really is something urgent.
But it doesn't mean that I'm not in my secure place actually that like I can be
in an urgent place, but also like, and, and if I miss the plane,
it's not the end of the world, but I'm gonna urgently get there.
It's like a differentiated thing.
But also like if I'm just urgent because I'm urgently trying to get something
whatever, walk across the house urgently, , then yeah,
probably in my protective zone, that's a good one. But not know it.
It's so weird. It's just gonna be automatic. But that's.
How, why we're, we're talking about how, you know, the,
the signs that you recognize you're in a secure place. One of the ways is again,
we bring up curiosity.
It care if you're feeling a lot of experience inside you,
but you really don't care what somebody else next to you is feeling,
no matter what's going on for you, no matter how, then you're not.
That's a good sign.
Right? That's a good sign.
So one of the ways we know we're in a secure place is that we have compassion
for ourselves, but we can really care and be sensitive to the other.
And it's kind of like you were.
So what's your.
Tell my tell that I'm insecure? That I'm in a secure place?
Yes. That you're in a secure zone. The green zone. I.
Guess what we're talking about is what's a sign that was typically that we are
in not our green zone and how do we know when we're not activating it? .
And I guess mine is like if I'm able to set a limit or a boundary
and I know that somebody is going to feel some
sense of loss or just, you know, some sense of.
Or just be mad about it or yeah.
Not so much mad for some reason that one doesn't get me so much,
but a sense of loss, a sense of like that,
that that's disappointment or activation, right?
I know that I'm in a really deep secure space if I'm okay with that,
that I'm holding what I need and what feels important to me in mind
enough that I,
and I know that they can tolerate that and that they're gonna be okay.
Like I don't have to be the one to take that away from them. I can trust them,
I could be there for them, right? So it's not like, oh well tough on you.
It's like, oh I know that's hard and I'm still here. So it's that.
And I think for me the word and is really important.
If it's you or me then we're probably not in our secure place.
If it's you and me, we're having a dilemma.
It's you and me how we're gonna work this out.
Then we're able to show care and concern and self-compassion and
no matter whether, even if we're angry, right?
Like I like when you were saying earlier, being in uh,
a secure securely attached system doesn't mean you're never getting pissed and
petty and all of that. It's that you have awareness of yourself or.
You are more quickly Yes. Be able to catch it. Yes.
More and you're more quickly able to repair. Yes.
Oh that's a good one.
We haven't mentioned that individuals that have more secure attachment base feel
more comfortable doing repair and feel apologizing. Apologizing.
It's not hard to say. If it's really difficult for you to say,
I'm sorry to say thank you, those kinda things.
It's likely a sign that you're having a hard time staying in a more secure
place. For those that are live in a more secure attachment place, they can say,
oh, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Let me repair.
And the reason that shows security, it's not just an intellectual decision,
is your body feels safe doing that.
And safe hearing the impact that you've had on the other person and safe being
able to hear and you know, how was that for you? What did,
what did it mean to you when I, we had plans and I didn't come, you know,
just whatever it is. What did it mean to you? What was your story? Oh,
I could totally see that. That makes total sense to me.
And it's not that you're self-flagellating, you are not losing yourself.
You really are holding the other person's experience and sort of bearing it so
that you can, then the apology is about what you actually did.
Not what's in your mind that you thought about, but I'm curious for you,
the listener,
that we want you to begin to really track your activation
and hopefully in listening to us, if you're,
if you're sitting or walking or driving,
hopefully right now maybe you're in a green zone, maybe you are in a open,
you're reflecting on what we're saying, you're curious about your own history,
you're curious about close people. So that's what it feels like.
If that's the case, take a picture, take a mental picture,
notice your jaw, notice your breath, your back, your arms.
That's what it feels like.
And the more that we can kind of memorize what it feels like when we're open,
then we'll have some direction when we are a little bit activated
of where we wanna get back to, that's.
A really good, some of us may live there more than others. And for that,
that means we encourage you when you're around individuals that are struggling
with that to be a really secure lifeline. Not a teacher,
but an example to kind of help.
And if for those of you that because of your particular circumstances,
you don't get to live there as much as you want.
Our goal is to help you realize by keeping in touch with what it's like to be
there,
that you can continue to make decisions to recognize when you're not and to
aim for it.
And this transition and the growth in this direction is almost
always going to be interpersonal. So look around you,
look at your close relationships. Where can you deepen? Where can you reach out?
Where do you need to set boundaries? Like Anne said,
where do you need to tighten up? Where do you need to speak up that you haven't?
Just make those little fine tune adjustments and you're gonna grow that secure
state.
I love that. And if you,
if you can't think of reaching out like I don't really need to reach out,
I'm just gonna do it. Tell your body like, oh actually I do. They're,
they're suggesting that I do need to reach out. It doesn't feel natural to me.
It doesn't feel like a natural instinct,
but just being aware that it's not a natural instinct moves you towards agree.
We appreciate you sticking with us and if you are still listening,
hopefully that means you have found value.
We encourage you to share this with anyone you think might be interested.
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Absolutely. Alright, thanks for joining us and we'll see you around the bid.
Therapist.
Uncensored is Anne Kelly and Sue Marriott.
This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.