1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:08,420 So I've been using ag one now for over six months, which for me is amazing. 2 00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:09,700 I forget things a lot, 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,100 but I make sure to make an effort to keep taking this and to do it regularly 4 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:17,540 because it gives me all the good things. First and foremost, 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,500 we keep hearing about gut biome and how important it is to mood and stress 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,620 and all kinds of things. 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,140 And I haven't quite known what to do about my gut biome . 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,540 So ag one is my answer. It has quality vitamins, 9 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:34,540 whole foods sourced super foods, probiotics and adaptogens, 10 00:00:34,750 --> 00:00:37,340 which calm down your overeager stress response system. 11 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:40,940 I like that the ingredients are tested by a third party to ensure that what they 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,260 say is what you get. 13 00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:46,140 I feel good about recommending that you try it and I encourage you to keep 14 00:00:46,140 --> 00:00:48,020 taking it. If you already are on board, 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,220 go to athletic greens.com/therapist uncensored. 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,780 Be sure and use that link because for our listeners, 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,580 you'll get a free year's supply of vitamin B and free travel packets for you to 18 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:02,420 be able to take the superpower on the road. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,020 That's athletic greens.com/therapist uncensored. 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,500 Why should you care to learn about attachment? 21 00:01:09,730 --> 00:01:13,780 Because if you are learning about how your protective system developed, 22 00:01:14,210 --> 00:01:17,780 then you're gonna learn what makes you feel threatened, what makes you respond, 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,780 and how do you regulate yourself? 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,140 And you can learn that these are real patterned things that you do with 25 00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:26,940 everybody. You know how when you break up and you're like, oh my God, 26 00:01:26,940 --> 00:01:29,060 every one of my partners has been A, B or C, 27 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,140 and then somebody finally points out to you, 28 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,140 you do know you're the only consistent factor there for all of us. 29 00:01:35,170 --> 00:01:39,100 It's because we're doing these repetitive things that we've learned and we're 30 00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:43,580 often looking for partners that fill the familiarity to us. 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,700 And so when we learn what our protective systems are doing to keep us safe 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,340 and that we probably needed that when we were younger, 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,820 we needed that with our particular caregiver or we needed it in our environment. 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,780 But as we grow older, we usually don't need that for survival anymore. 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,500 But our body didn't know that it's continuing to engage in that way. 36 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:11,980 Welcome to Therapist Uncensored building on decades of professional experience. 37 00:02:11,980 --> 00:02:13,980 This podcast tackles neurobiology, 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,300 modern attachment and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans. 39 00:02:18,770 --> 00:02:22,300 Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. 40 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,900 Hey everybody. Welcome back to Therapist Uncensored. This is Sue Marriott and I, 41 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:33,913 I'm Ann Kelly. 42 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,540 It is sometimes shocking as in depth as we always are about talking about 43 00:02:39,540 --> 00:02:43,620 attachment and neurobiology that a lot of people out there don't even know what 44 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:46,540 the heck attachment is and that's the norm. , 45 00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:48,860 we're so embedded in this in our own brain, 46 00:02:48,860 --> 00:02:52,900 it's hard for us to imagine that it isn't just the norm out there and yet we're 47 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:56,740 the freaks. Honestly. Exactly like not. Well I wouldn't call us freaks , 48 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:58,020 um, personally, but, 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,160 but this episode we're gonna go really high level. 50 00:03:02,990 --> 00:03:05,400 This will be the start here episode. 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,120 If you don't know anything about attachment, yeah, 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,400 those of you just joining the, 53 00:03:08,420 --> 00:03:11,520 the podcast or those that have been a long time and you're like, oh my god, 54 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:15,160 really when they talk about attachment, what do they mean? Right? 55 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,800 So this is gonna be a high level summary. If you're interested, 56 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:20,160 go to the show notes. 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,280 There's gonna be lots of reference there for you to follow up. But we, 58 00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:27,240 our idea here is to keep it really simple and quick. 59 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:29,320 So what is attachment Ann Kelly? 60 00:03:29,980 --> 00:03:34,640 So that's a surprisingly hard question to answer. No, 61 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,240 don't make it complex. , no. Okay. Detachment ISS about biology. 62 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:43,120 Attachment is about how we as mammals 63 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:45,540 survive and thrive. 64 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,540 How we learn to do that by attaching to our primary people who 65 00:03:50,540 --> 00:03:54,020 are caregivers out there to keep us alive. 66 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:59,900 We're born highly social, persistently interpersonal. 67 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,980 No matter how big and burly and independent you think you are, 68 00:04:04,980 --> 00:04:09,260 actually you're quite interdependent on your fellow beings in the world. 69 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:09,780 And you know, 70 00:04:09,780 --> 00:04:13,620 there's a new study that just came out by the surgeon General just in the last 71 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:18,420 month or so, that shows isolation being this huge, 72 00:04:18,770 --> 00:04:22,900 huge risk factor in all the bad things. Health, cardiac, 73 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:28,220 longevity, immune system, all the bad things. And this is, 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,420 we believe related to flip it the other way, 75 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:34,100 when you have a secure attachment history, 76 00:04:34,390 --> 00:04:36,300 which going back to Anne's definition, 77 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,300 we have this biological response very early on to adapt 78 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:45,660 based on the family we were born into the culture we were born into the 79 00:04:45,660 --> 00:04:46,860 subculture we were born into. 80 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,340 Our bodies very quickly Figure out how to keep the parent close and available. 81 00:04:52,050 --> 00:04:57,020 Then shapes kind of around that, about what things to do, what to express, 82 00:04:57,130 --> 00:04:58,140 what not to express. 83 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,340 And those begin to layer and get embedded in our nervous system that eventually 84 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,900 become behaviors that eventually become thoughts about ourselves, 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,580 how we see ourselves and how we see other people. And then boom, 86 00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:13,980 you're in a marriage or in a truffle or whatever. 87 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,340 And now it either is going really smoothly, 88 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:19,700 because you've learned how to emotionally regulate and bring people 89 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:23,500 close. All of this stuff. This is kind of the why and, and loves to say, 90 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:24,500 you know, why do people care? 91 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:30,020 We care because these neurological systems and the beliefs that form around them 92 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,980 impact us throughout our life. Well enough said, I think we're done. 93 00:05:35,540 --> 00:05:39,900 . . That's a very good summary. 94 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:42,540 I wish this was live. So people could say, uh, 95 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,540 no that's not enough or that's too much or whatever. I love how you ended there. 96 00:05:46,540 --> 00:05:51,260 Like in a sense it's like we are social beings, but we have to be social beings. 97 00:05:51,290 --> 00:05:55,940 This isn't a choice. It isn't an option and are incredibly intuitive. 98 00:05:56,900 --> 00:06:00,400 Pre-programmed body knows that from in utero on. 99 00:06:00,980 --> 00:06:04,960 And so our wiring, we come predetermined, like you said, 100 00:06:05,010 --> 00:06:06,520 ready to kind of figure it out. 101 00:06:06,750 --> 00:06:11,400 What do I need to do to keep these people in my life close and caring and 102 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,880 nurturing and not too overwhelmed? 103 00:06:15,010 --> 00:06:18,110 And the why do you care is because this isn't just, 104 00:06:18,260 --> 00:06:19,510 most people when we're talking about attachment, 105 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,990 they think of parenting or they think of what happens. 106 00:06:22,050 --> 00:06:24,390 And if you don't even have kids out there in the world, 107 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:26,110 why should you care about attachment? 108 00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:30,740 It's because it actually informs how you relate 109 00:06:31,620 --> 00:06:34,760 in your social relationships right now. Your primary relationships, 110 00:06:35,140 --> 00:06:38,360 how you are able to bond with them or the struggles you're having. 111 00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:41,240 Those are all not completely, 112 00:06:41,340 --> 00:06:46,320 but they are interconnected to how you learned to protect yourself and to 113 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,120 connect with other people. You know, one of the things too, 114 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:52,080 to learn what attachment is, is also to talk about what attachment is not. 115 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:55,600 So we aren't saying the attachment is everything. 116 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:59,880 And we're not saying that all your problems are only because of attachment at 117 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,000 all. As a matter of fact, used to, 118 00:07:02,030 --> 00:07:04,920 they thought if you had an insecure attachment pattern, 119 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:07,920 it was never a diagnosis for a baby. 120 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:13,240 But if the pattern between the infant and the parent was seen as either 121 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:15,360 dismissing or preoccupied, 122 00:07:15,620 --> 00:07:19,760 in other words it was an insecure category that if you were dismissing as a, 123 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,120 or avoidant as a baby, that you would grow up to be a dismissing adult. 124 00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:24,760 And that if you were preoccupied as a baby, 125 00:07:24,950 --> 00:07:27,680 that you would grow up to be a preoccupied adult. 126 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:31,640 And that ends up not to be ex. I mean it's very complicated. 127 00:07:31,710 --> 00:07:34,640 It's not so direct. But that's good news. 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,200 'cause the good news means that relationships throughout our lives impact us 129 00:07:39,230 --> 00:07:41,000 both positively and negatively. 130 00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:45,560 So our brains are constantly adapting to our environment. So just in summary, 131 00:07:45,930 --> 00:07:50,560 quick summary is that this early attachment sets up a trajectory 132 00:07:51,620 --> 00:07:56,520 and if uninterrupted then if we have developed patterns that 133 00:07:56,980 --> 00:08:01,520 unintentionally push people away or assume that people aren't gonna be there for 134 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,920 us, things like that, if uninterrupted, 135 00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:08,160 then that can continue to cause problems in preschool and school age and 136 00:08:08,310 --> 00:08:12,600 adolescence with grades, choice of partners, and even your parenting, 137 00:08:13,370 --> 00:08:18,240 again, not directly all the time, but it, you know, there's a general direction. 138 00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:22,600 And what's so cool about that is that it can be interrupted and intervened in 139 00:08:22,620 --> 00:08:25,400 any moment, no matter your age, no matter your history, 140 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:28,640 no matter how much therapy you've done or what you've studied. 141 00:08:29,270 --> 00:08:33,360 None of that really matters because it's a deeper embodied 142 00:08:34,070 --> 00:08:38,920 urge and embodied drive to seek closeness and also 143 00:08:38,980 --> 00:08:41,400 to protect ourselves, which is, if you think about it, right, 144 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,960 that's complicated. How do I get close and be safe? Right? That's, 145 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,360 that's kind of screwed up who, 146 00:08:47,380 --> 00:08:50,600 who designed that and that we have to do both at the same time. 147 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:52,960 We have to , we have to like co our system. 148 00:08:53,180 --> 00:08:57,560 Our nervous system has to cooperate and like, I gotta let you in, but you know, 149 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:01,360 I wanna save my ass. So , you get more dangerous as you get closer. 150 00:09:01,420 --> 00:09:04,040 You can hurt me more. Honestly, we're joking about it. 151 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,960 But that is a really complex set of requirements to have intimate 152 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,520 relationships and that's tough. 153 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:14,680 So one of the things also about what attachment isn't, 154 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:17,480 we said it's not everything. It's also not love. 155 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:22,000 Some people equate attachment and love like she loved her baby. 156 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:24,120 So it's a positive attachment or something like that. 157 00:09:24,180 --> 00:09:27,280 Or there's just a confabulation about that. It's not love, it's, 158 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:28,600 it's more about protection. 159 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:32,840 Our attachment systems are only active when we're feel threatened. 160 00:09:33,540 --> 00:09:37,280 We can look really good. But then when something happens and, 161 00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:41,560 and it activates us enough to be scared about our relationship, 162 00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:44,000 that's when you see the attachment pattern pop up. 163 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:47,600 And I think what's important about that is what does threaten us is not the same 164 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:49,720 depending on our early history, 165 00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:53,680 what feels threatening to one person is not threatening to the other. 166 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:56,320 And you've mentioned if you've had a secure attachment pattern. 167 00:09:56,420 --> 00:10:00,440 So if we were gonna back that up for just a second and talk about, 168 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:03,480 we wanna stay away from the categories, right? 169 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:08,200 But there are some ways that our body develops in more predictable ways 170 00:10:08,870 --> 00:10:11,680 that says this is threatening and this is how you protect. 171 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:16,880 And through the early learning, we can either learn to upregulate, 172 00:10:17,260 --> 00:10:17,880 in other words, 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,520 I need to activate in order to get my needs met and to thrive, 174 00:10:23,220 --> 00:10:26,320 my nervous system has to stay really aware of my surroundings, 175 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,160 needs to stay in tune and very much emotionally 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:31,993 activate up. 177 00:10:32,540 --> 00:10:37,480 And that's where we would might lean towards being more preoccupied or 178 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,280 what we call in our podcast red or did we have this really 179 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,560 early learning that says if I get too emotional and I activate too much, 180 00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:48,600 it actually sends people away. 181 00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:53,960 So I learned to sort of deactivate the need for other people and head more 182 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,360 towards a dismissing or avoidant kind of way of relating to people. 183 00:10:57,380 --> 00:10:59,960 But these are not diagnosis as, they're not pathology. 184 00:11:00,430 --> 00:11:04,080 It's how your nervous system has learned to keep you safe as we really wanna get 185 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,320 away from the idea that one's good or one's bad. 186 00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:09,800 It's what is really effective in your environment, 187 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:15,240 in your subculture to keep you thriving and surviving the best 188 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,430 way possible. Yeah, to do that, 189 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:22,390 to do that balanced dance of both keeping us safe, but keeping us connected. 190 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:25,470 No, I think that that's exactly right. And you know, 191 00:11:25,950 --> 00:11:28,310 Anne said that we wanna stay away away from categories. 192 00:11:28,890 --> 00:11:33,870 And the reason for that is because this early research at 70 years old, 193 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:38,070 John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth are the four leaders. 194 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:42,750 And the original research was all it was, it was looking at these mother baby, 195 00:11:43,050 --> 00:11:44,230 and at the time it was mother. 196 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:48,430 That's certainly attachment has expanded since then to, you know, 197 00:11:48,430 --> 00:11:53,160 include all kinds of families and family configurations and genders and things 198 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:53,993 like that. 199 00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:59,240 But originally those categories were looking at the relationship between the 200 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,550 mom and the baby. And it was just for research purposes. 201 00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:07,510 This was not designed to be interpreted as diagnosis 202 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:12,390 or as a individual pathology. It was they were looking at groups of babies. 203 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:15,990 So why Anne said that we wanna stay away from categories is, 204 00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:18,750 especially if you're thinking of this early attachment research, 205 00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:21,310 'cause it did evolve over time. Again, we're gonna keep it simple. 206 00:12:21,970 --> 00:12:24,830 So it did evolve and the language changed and things like that. 207 00:12:24,970 --> 00:12:29,390 But on TikTok and on Instagram and all of those things where you have these 208 00:12:29,390 --> 00:12:30,030 really quick, 209 00:12:30,030 --> 00:12:32,830 like this is preoccupied attachment and this is dismissing attachment. 210 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:36,030 The problem with that is we are not one thing. 211 00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:38,510 Like we absolutely are not one thing. 212 00:12:38,510 --> 00:12:42,630 And the research was not designed that early attachment research was not 213 00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:45,350 designed to be used in that way anyway. 214 00:12:45,770 --> 00:12:49,910 But it's also not true that we can just look at a list and say, I'm preoccupied, 215 00:12:50,170 --> 00:12:51,990 or I'm dismissing, or even I'm secure. 216 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,870 We're notoriously terrible at self-identifying our attachment strategies 217 00:12:57,150 --> 00:13:01,470 . Well, and one reason that is, is because what feels familiar to us, 218 00:13:02,180 --> 00:13:04,150 what feels natural to us is what we're gonna do. 219 00:13:04,210 --> 00:13:08,630 And that doesn't feel like we're being dismissive or preoccupied. 220 00:13:08,630 --> 00:13:10,790 It just feels like we're being natural, right? Like if, 221 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:15,070 if we've learned that we need to really watch our environment out there to keep 222 00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:15,903 ourselves safe, 223 00:13:16,140 --> 00:13:20,390 then staying alert and being able to notice small flaws in our partnerships and 224 00:13:20,390 --> 00:13:22,670 being able to feel the need to point it out and correct it. 225 00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:27,230 don't point at me, is, 226 00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:32,070 is a really natural feeling. It's very hard to go inside and say, oh, 227 00:13:32,070 --> 00:13:35,390 that's actually because I'm activated because of my early learning. 228 00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:38,470 It's because you're out there being unsafe and it's obvious. 229 00:13:38,970 --> 00:13:43,950 And so it's such an integral part of who we are that we often think 230 00:13:43,950 --> 00:13:47,790 of these things also as our personality. Like, oh, I'm, this is just me. 231 00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:51,790 But actually when we learn more, this is the the part where we say, 232 00:13:51,810 --> 00:13:54,710 why should you care? Why should you care to learn about attachment? 233 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:58,870 Because if you are learning about how your protective system developed, 234 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:03,270 then you're gonna learn what makes you feel threatened, what makes you respond, 235 00:14:03,370 --> 00:14:04,990 and how do you regulate yourself? 236 00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:09,310 And you can learn that these are real patterned things that you do with 237 00:14:09,310 --> 00:14:12,150 everybody. You know how when you break up and you're like, oh my God, 238 00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:14,230 every one of my partners has been A, B or C, 239 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:16,310 and then somebody finally points out to you, 240 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:20,330 you do know you're the only consistent factor there for all of us. 241 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,290 It's because we're doing these repetitive things that we've learned and we're 242 00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:28,770 often looking for partners that fill the familiarity to us. 243 00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:33,850 And so when we learn what our protective systems are doing to keep us safe, 244 00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:37,490 and that we probably needed that when we were younger, 245 00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:42,010 we needed that with our particular caregiver or we needed it in our environment. 246 00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:46,930 But as we grow older, we usually don't need that for survival anymore. 247 00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:51,900 But our body didn't know that it's continuing to engage in that way because 248 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,140 it seems normal. We don't even see it necessarily. 249 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,180 And because it's so embodied, 250 00:14:57,670 --> 00:15:02,020 we've developed stories around the way that our nervous system embodied safety 251 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,420 and danger. So when you say embodied, what you're meaning is, 252 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:10,260 is how your body manifests this experience, 253 00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:12,450 right? So there's the very, 254 00:15:12,450 --> 00:15:16,530 very early limbic learning that before thought 255 00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:20,490 before words, you know, this happens very, 256 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,290 very early before there's any conscious memory for sure. 257 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,210 Then you already have your nervous system patterns. And then on top of that, 258 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:32,450 you know, as you age by age, I mean two years old, three years old, , 259 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,810 then you begin to form cognitions and thoughts. 260 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:37,410 But the thoughts they're already, 261 00:15:37,410 --> 00:15:40,850 they're forming to make sense of what your natural patterns already are. 262 00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:45,130 So that's part of why some of what the research looks at is it's, there's both, 263 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,570 this is why that those, when you fill out a little quiz online, 264 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:51,970 those are the stories that have formed about your, 265 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,090 that you have consciously about yourself and about relationships, 266 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,730 which are important and interesting, 267 00:15:58,070 --> 00:16:00,850 but they're not the same thing as the original attachment research. Well, 268 00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:04,530 and to give you an example though, when you're saying the embodied story, 269 00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:08,290 oh yeah, I, I got distracted. . Go ahead . 270 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,330 What if your embodied stories may be, 271 00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:16,810 let's say your body had learned that too much emotional connection. 272 00:16:16,810 --> 00:16:19,250 Too much closeness, too much neediness. For example, 273 00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:24,010 if you're emotionally expressive and your body learned that that actually pushed 274 00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:26,690 people away, or your primary caregiver away made them shut down, 275 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:30,570 or they get angry or they got overwhelmed, then your body learns, oh, 276 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,210 when I get emotions again, 277 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:34,450 I get emotional and I start to cry and I get overwhelmed. 278 00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:37,850 I'm actually gonna lose connection and that scares the crap outta me. 279 00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:41,490 So then my nervous system starts to develop that belief. 280 00:16:41,830 --> 00:16:45,330 So what that means is that my body feels threatened when I start to feel 281 00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:50,250 emotional. That feels horrible. It feels scary. And all sirens say, 282 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,730 shut that down, shut that down. But we don't grow up saying, 283 00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:57,210 oh my body learned this as a young age and I'm doing this. 284 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,290 What our body grows up doing is people don't like my emotions or 285 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,810 it's ridiculous to be emotional. You should be able to contain your emotions. 286 00:17:05,810 --> 00:17:06,643 You're just weak. 287 00:17:06,670 --> 00:17:11,290 So we tell a story about our body's experience 288 00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:14,690 and that story makes sense to us. So if somebody asks us when we're older, 289 00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:19,210 our conscious thought, we're usually not so aware of the embodied experience. 290 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:24,170 We're aware of the, I can't trust people or people let me down. We're aware. 291 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,970 Yeah, don't, don't don't air your dirty laundry in public. Yeah. 292 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:30,290 Why would you air something if you reach out for emotional support that's just 293 00:17:30,290 --> 00:17:33,410 weak, you know, fix yourself. You know, I had to do it. You do it. 294 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:38,850 So those are the stories you tell that are based on your body's experience 295 00:17:38,850 --> 00:17:42,250 of threat. But what happens is you quit actually feeling the threat. 296 00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:45,610 You don't even know it's threat because you've learned to cut it off so easily 297 00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:48,610 and so young, not easily, but so automatically and so young, 298 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:50,760 you don't have conscious awareness of that. 299 00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:55,520 Especially talking about the pattern that has learned to deactivate, 300 00:17:55,610 --> 00:18:00,040 which later ends up being called dismissing or what Ann and I refer to as kind 301 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,640 of blue little cooler over there on that side of the spectrum. 302 00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:08,280 And we use the spectrum on purpose and we use colors on purpose to get the 303 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,320 pathology out of it. Actually the original research used letters A, B, C, 304 00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:15,000 you know, so we're kind of picking up that idea of like, 305 00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:18,200 this is just describing a tendency, 306 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:22,280 I'm not a diagnosis that as we begin to lean in that direction, 307 00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:25,550 it's not that we're thinking these thoughts, 308 00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:29,390 it's that we tell a story to explain what our body is doing . 309 00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:32,510 That our brain is really there to just create these stories, . 310 00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:35,790 And it's called the default mode network. Many of you have heard that. 311 00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:40,270 That's kind of us thinking about ourselves and that's where all the stories lie. 312 00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:43,990 And sometimes that can be good and that we're being self-reflective and 313 00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:47,710 sometimes that stuff can go crazy. And that's when we get anxious, 314 00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:51,630 we get depressed, we begin to ruminate, we begin to tell stories, we begin to, 315 00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:53,870 Ann hasn't responded, she's probably dead. 316 00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:58,430 Or those stories that we fill in that comes from, again, this early learning. 317 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:02,030 This is why this is, goes back to the why do you care? Yeah, I love that part. 318 00:19:02,290 --> 00:19:03,750 Why do you care? Because if you're, 319 00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,390 you can be really hard on yourself if you think that you should be able to just 320 00:19:07,390 --> 00:19:10,430 turn this on and off. Like if you're ruminating and like, ah, 321 00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:12,270 I know not to ruminate. This is ridiculous. 322 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,670 I can't quit thinking about how that conversation I had earlier 323 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:20,470 and I can't keep thinking about all I said wrong or I did wrong in that 324 00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:22,430 conversation. I can't get it outta my mind. 325 00:19:22,810 --> 00:19:25,950 And then I start getting my mad at myself because I can't get it outta my mind. 326 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:28,950 Oh that's, that's my favorite loop over. Yeah, that little loop like, ah, 327 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:30,550 just stop thinking about that. Like, 328 00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:33,230 it's so important to understand that this is not a decision you're making. 329 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:35,430 This is your body's response to, 330 00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:39,550 I better stay aware and keep rethinking and get it right or I'm probably gonna 331 00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:42,550 get rejected. And this is in one's body. 332 00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:47,390 And the reason that you it matters is the more you learn about your own 333 00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:48,870 specific protection system, 334 00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:53,630 the more that you can learn ways to soothe that or to really, uh, 335 00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:56,430 tell a story to get more of a, you know, 336 00:19:56,490 --> 00:20:01,390 an accurate story that people aren't really rejecting us and we 337 00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:03,950 can learn to do. Even you bring up embodiment. 338 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:08,270 That's one reason why some of the body focused therapies out there are 339 00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:09,340 considered so effective. 340 00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:13,630 It's like teaching you how to tune into that bodied response and to be able to 341 00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:16,310 calm it down so that you can then do what we really wanna do. 342 00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:18,870 And that's activate our connection system, 343 00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,070 our ability to really stay connected to other people. 344 00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:25,030 Because when we are in our protection system, it overwrites, 345 00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:28,630 we can't really feel safe enough to connect and to stay close. 346 00:20:30,290 --> 00:20:34,230 And one of the advantages is that when we are in that more secure state, 347 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:38,510 that it buffers us from the stress response system. 348 00:20:38,650 --> 00:20:41,550 That's part of how it translates. I think I did already say this, didn't I? Mm. 349 00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:42,750 A little bit. You know, 350 00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:46,710 you just talked about the protection system and the connection system and I love 351 00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:50,200 talking about it that way. And that when we are in the connection system, 352 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:54,880 it means that our brain is flooded with these really feel good oxytocin and 353 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,160 you know, serotonin, we feel satisfied. 354 00:20:57,610 --> 00:20:59,920 We're maybe feel excited a little dopamine. 355 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:04,360 The neurochemical bath makes us feel safe and open. We're more generous, 356 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:07,120 but it also protects us from stress. 357 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:12,080 So we're more likely to more accurately respond to and not texting 358 00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:13,013 me. 359 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,640 I will have other ideas about what that could be when I'm in that more secure 360 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,120 state. So part of why the another, this is a why, 361 00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:25,440 why do we care is because the more we can develop our secure sense of ourselves, 362 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,440 regardless of your history or regardless of your therapy or regardless of your 363 00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:31,400 PhD, it doesn't matter. 364 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,960 But the more that we can develop that secure system and know how to get back 365 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,360 there when we're not feeling it, 366 00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:42,800 it buffers us from this chronic stress that's going on in our protection system, 367 00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:47,800 which then translates into all kinds of wonderful things like better sleep, um, 368 00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:51,880 better skin , better nails, , uh, no, 369 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,440 but really like cardiovascular health, immunity, even longevity. 370 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,780 The thing I love about our new sponsor Mud Water is that they challenge 371 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:14,260 conventional thinking from their packaging to their messaging, 372 00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:18,980 which is a very interesting and progressive to the product 373 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,140 itself. Even the name Mud Water gave me pause. It's like, 374 00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:26,980 what in the heck is Mud Water ? So Mud water is a drink. 375 00:22:27,620 --> 00:22:29,500 A lot of people use it as a coffee alternative. 376 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,500 It has four kinds of mushrooms that are adaptogenic and it is dosed 377 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:35,780 with alytic herbs. 378 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:40,700 So basically rather than drinking your cup of coffee and then crashing a little 379 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:42,700 bit later, you know, getting the jitters or something, 380 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,820 you put this powder in your glass, 381 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,420 it comes with this beautiful tin and even A U S B rechargeable 382 00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:53,580 frother. It's so cute and I've had such a good time with it. , 383 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,420 I'm not a big coffee drinker myself, uh, 384 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,460 but it has been so fun to have kind of a new ritual in the morning. 385 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:00,980 Now why mushrooms? 386 00:23:01,210 --> 00:23:04,780 They're leaning on mushrooms because mushrooms are so good for you. 387 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,700 And I don't even mean the magic kind. These are things like lion's, mane, 388 00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:14,260 cordyceps, chaga, reishi, turmeric and cinnamon. 389 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,140 All of these really good antioxidants. They're good for your immune system, 390 00:23:19,370 --> 00:23:23,700 they're good for alertness, they're even support physical performance. 391 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,180 So my favorite is cacao and I basically use it in the 392 00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:33,500 morning. I use my little frother just to mix it all up in the water. Again, 393 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,700 it's given me this great new ritual. 394 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,460 And what it does is it gives me the alertness and the energy without the crash 395 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,640 of just too high doses of caffeine. It is a hundred percent organic, non G M O, 396 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,640 gluten-free, vegan, kosher certified, all those things. 397 00:23:49,150 --> 00:23:52,520 It's good for your whole 30. It is officially whole 30 approved. 398 00:23:53,030 --> 00:23:57,120 It's really creative. You can mix it up with milk or with honey. 399 00:23:57,460 --> 00:24:01,440 You can turn it into a tea. They have different versions as well. 400 00:24:01,620 --> 00:24:06,040 I'm just speaking specifically to the cacao. It tastes delicious. 401 00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:07,840 It's sweet. Of course it has no sugar. 402 00:24:08,260 --> 00:24:13,000 So I would love for you to consider making a small habit change for your health 403 00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:17,240 to keep things fresh. Uh, I would really encourage you to try it out. 404 00:24:17,740 --> 00:24:22,400 It comes with this really cute tin and this U S B rechargeable 405 00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:23,360 frother, 406 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:28,080 which I've had such a blast playing with and mixing up my cacao in the morning. 407 00:24:28,270 --> 00:24:32,840 It's delicious. It also comes with some sample packets and for our listeners, 408 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,200 you're gonna get 15% off right away by going to mud 409 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,480 water.com/tu. 410 00:24:38,980 --> 00:24:42,160 And that's M U D WT 411 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,320 r.com/tu. So you know, 412 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,680 we talk a lot about self-care and we want you to check in with yourself before 413 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,240 you offer help to someone else. Rest. When you need rest, ask for what you need. 414 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:58,440 And most definitely say yes to things that make you feel good. Our sponsor, 415 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,760 your dips can help transport your mind to a world where you can relax and treat 416 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,920 yourself to a surprise or your known deepest desires. 417 00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:08,200 DIA is an app full of hundreds of short, 418 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,720 sexy audio stories designed by women for women. There is something for everyone. 419 00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:14,880 So if you've lost touch with your own sexiness, 420 00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:19,720 wanna spice up a long-term relationship or if it's just for you to brighten up 421 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,320 your time alone, the stories at Dipsea are there to help. 422 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:23,760 It's radically inclusive. 423 00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:26,920 No matter how you identify or who you are attracted to, 424 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:29,920 you'll find something from sweet to pretty spicy. 425 00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:33,880 Things will never get boring because new content is released every week and 426 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,240 you'll find things you didn't even know you're interested in. For our listeners, 427 00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:42,200 dsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsea 428 00:25:42,430 --> 00:25:44,560 stories.com/to. 429 00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:48,920 That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to dipsea, 430 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,160 D I p ss e a stories.com/to. 431 00:25:53,660 --> 00:25:56,560 That's dsea stories.com/to. 432 00:25:57,260 --> 00:26:01,920 So this sponsor is so easy to support because I use it, 433 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,480 I recommend it all the time and it's zero cost to you, 434 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:08,000 but it delivers a very high benefit. 435 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:13,240 Zocdoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors and book appointments 436 00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:14,133 online. 437 00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:17,960 We're talking about booking appointments with thousands of top rated patient 438 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:23,320 reviewed doctors and lots of other specialists you can filter specifically for 439 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,680 ones who take your insurance are located near you and treat almost any condition 440 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,640 that you are searching for. It's so hard to figure out ahead of time. One, 441 00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:35,400 is this a good doctor? Maybe you're new to town, 442 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,760 maybe you've never needed a podiatrist or maybe you've never needed a 443 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,400 dermatologist. Just go on your app, it's on your, it'll be on your phone, 444 00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:48,960 it's free and you can put in anything that you're looking for and you will find 445 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,240 it. Not only do they tell you whether or not they take your insurance, 446 00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:55,040 but they'll even tell you what it costs if you don't have insurance. 447 00:26:55,710 --> 00:27:00,400 That alone was just totally sold me that. That transparency is wonderful. 448 00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:05,840 There's also all the reviews, real patients, not bots. You get actual reviews, 449 00:27:06,110 --> 00:27:10,520 basically like being referred by friends in a way. So highly recommend this. 450 00:27:10,780 --> 00:27:15,680 Go to zocdoc.com/tu, download the Zocdoc app for free, 451 00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:18,560 then find and book a top rated doctor today. 452 00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:22,200 That's zocdoc.com/to. 453 00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:25,480 I've used it for psychiatrists. 454 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,600 It has been so hard to find a psychiatrist that's actually taking patients. 455 00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:31,960 And with Zocdoc, 456 00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:36,480 I've been recommending it to many people and I use it specifically to help me 457 00:27:37,530 --> 00:27:42,040 refer and get good psychiatrists that are actually taking patients. 458 00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:46,600 And you can connect them through your insurance, through the client's insurance, 459 00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:50,920 which is just so, so valuable. So again, 460 00:27:50,980 --> 00:27:54,920 that's zocdoc.com/tu and download the free app. 461 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:58,480 You will not be disappointed. It's super useful. 462 00:27:58,550 --> 00:28:02,080 Very handy for anything you can imagine. Any doctor that you can imagine. 463 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:07,640 Any condition that you can imagine your toes hurt, your skin is itchy. 464 00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:11,360 You need a dermatologist, you need a psychiatrist, you need a social worker. 465 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,400 Whatever you need right there at your fingertips. Okay, 466 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,680 now people understand what it is, why it's important, 467 00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:18,400 where do we wanna direct them? 468 00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:22,440 Like what kinds of things should we point them to is introductory things to do 469 00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:24,720 to continue this, uh, exploration. 470 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:27,080 We keep talking about protection and connection. 471 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:32,120 It'd be interesting to kind of think of the ways that your system is set up 472 00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:35,240 about what stresses you. So to question yourself, 473 00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:38,560 one of the things to do is to ask. Instead of saying, this is just me. 474 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:41,880 What are the four things you say? Describe your personality in a relationship. 475 00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:45,320 Instead of just saying, I'm just an independent person, I don't want any help. 476 00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:47,920 Or I really like committees. You know, 477 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,040 I don't like to make a decision without having to committee right now. 478 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,160 That one you're not pointing at me. . That one you, 479 00:28:54,190 --> 00:28:56,240 that one you're pointing at yourself. Absolutely. 480 00:28:56,980 --> 00:28:59,440 If you have those kind of repetitive dynamics, 481 00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:02,440 it's a good idea to stop and think where does this come from? 482 00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:07,520 Because what is the threat under that? What is the worry? Like if for me, 483 00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:09,680 I'm trying to make a decision now, if you didn't have a committee, 484 00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:10,613 if I didn't have committee, 485 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,920 somebody in the room is gonna have to go eat dinner somewhere. 486 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,600 They're disappointed at. They're gonna be disappointed. Right? But see, 487 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680 that's the embedded Exactly right. That's the embedded fear. 488 00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:23,760 That's the embedded fear. So okay, but so somebody's disappointed. 489 00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:26,440 And then what if you stop and go, somebody's gonna be disappointed. 490 00:29:26,540 --> 00:29:27,640 Why is that so hard? 491 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:32,160 Why is it hard to imagine your child or your friend being disappointed? 492 00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:35,040 And as I say that, think about your nervous system. 493 00:29:35,210 --> 00:29:37,880 Don't just think about your brain, don't think about your thoughts. 494 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:41,480 Think about what feels em bodily threatening to you. 495 00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:46,240 If somebody's disappointed, how has disappointed impacted you in your life? 496 00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:50,000 Has other people that are important to you. When they get disappointed, 497 00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:54,000 how has it impacted you? What is the fear? Are they gonna disappear? 498 00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:55,720 Are they gonna get overwhelmed? 499 00:29:56,590 --> 00:30:00,740 Those are really important pieces of information to be curious about. 500 00:30:01,290 --> 00:30:03,940 Another example will be, do you take control in every situation? 501 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,380 Do you like have to be the one? Do you have to be the one to pay the check? 502 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,900 Do you have to be the one to be in charge instead of just saying, 503 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,300 I'm just got this personality. That's just great at being in charge. 504 00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:17,780 These turn out to be strengths, but our strengths usually have the other side. 505 00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:19,820 What happens if you're not in charge? 506 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,420 Do you then start feeling your nervous system, get activated and nervous, 507 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,700 pay attention to your nervous system. 508 00:30:26,830 --> 00:30:29,010 So Anne's immediate thought was disappointment. 509 00:30:29,390 --> 00:30:32,490 But your reason to use a committee might have a little bit of a different 510 00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:36,420 flavor. Like it might be, but if I say what I want, 511 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:37,740 then I'm more exposed. 512 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,900 And if I put a flag in the ground and say this is who I am and what I think 513 00:30:43,570 --> 00:30:47,300 that could feel vulnerable for Anne's first thought was about disappointing 514 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:49,940 someone. But this is where it gets fun and interesting. 515 00:30:50,290 --> 00:30:54,980 Like for me to not know what I think feels threatening. Hmm. 516 00:30:55,390 --> 00:30:56,860 Right. To be kind of, 517 00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:00,420 to be over influenced by the committee is threatening to you to be like, 518 00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:02,420 I need to know what I'm thinking. I'm not gonna be overly, 519 00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,180 I wanna know what I'm thinking before I like, 520 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,460 but still there's a threat there versus somebody else. Say who? 521 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,140 Who does use the committee? Yeah. 522 00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:11,540 That was just the first thought I had was like, if you put a flag in the ground, 523 00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:14,220 it's really scary. And also if you know, 524 00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:15,700 we can keep taking this deeper and deeper. 525 00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:20,940 Sometimes this goes to grief all the ways that we've had to 526 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,980 not know our own minds or declare ourselves in some way. 527 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:30,940 Like this is not small stuff and this is not something you can just turn on or 528 00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:33,100 turn off. This is a process. 529 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,900 So another just example of things to do would be to really 530 00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:42,700 cultivate curiosity about how you relate and how 531 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:46,740 others relate to you and your history. Like how you got to be where you are now. 532 00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:50,980 'cause one of the signs of security is you have a real free range of like 533 00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:53,660 wondering about these things and you kind of have an interest in it because it 534 00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:56,900 really matters. So if you're somebody that's like, the past is the past, 535 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,180 it doesn't matter, that's actually a sign. And again, 536 00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:02,660 we're not confabulating everything into like, 537 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,820 not everything is about attachment. 538 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,140 You can also be depressed or have obsessive thoughts or you know, 539 00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:10,140 there's lots of diagnoses that aren't even associated with this. 540 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,740 But right now we're just talking about attachment. So you know, 541 00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:16,140 like when you're brushing off, like I'll give you something to cry about. 542 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,260 You know, there, there's, you know, 543 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:21,660 just those things that are not introspective but are as a matter of fact 544 00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:26,300 devaluing and dismissing of the process of wondering about things. You know, 545 00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:28,420 a lot of times you might say, uh, they're overanalyzing, 546 00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,820 they're overthinking it, that kind of stuff. Well those are all little signals. 547 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,740 And what we would invite you to do is to get more curious and to begin to 548 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:41,570 actually pay attention to what the inner world of your other person and your 549 00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:43,450 inner world. And like Anne said, 550 00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:45,810 that like at sometimes as we begin to shift how we think, 551 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,090 then we can feel our heart rate go up . 552 00:32:48,390 --> 00:32:51,370 Or even maybe you feel your defense go up even more. Like, that's stupid, 553 00:32:51,910 --> 00:32:55,410 that's a waste of time. Why go back to the past? Well, okay, now you're fight. 554 00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:57,850 Now there's some fight there. It's like what we're saying, 555 00:32:58,150 --> 00:33:03,050 the science says is that a coherent narrative is one of the signs of security. 556 00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:06,570 It doesn't cause it, but it just means it's a sign of neural integration. 557 00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:10,770 It's a sign of that connection system and the protection system balancing. 558 00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:16,490 So how you get a coherent narrative is that you begin to piece things 559 00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:18,490 together and be curious and wonder about them. 560 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:21,770 So that what you mean by coherent narrative, 561 00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:27,130 a coherent narrative is a story that makes sense on the deepest level that 562 00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:30,010 includes your body. It doesn't just, it's just not your head, right? 563 00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:32,330 If you just tell yourself, I'm independent and I know who I am, 564 00:33:33,550 --> 00:33:35,210 that's not a coherent, yeah, that's not coherence, 565 00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:37,730 that's not coherent because nobody's independent. In fact, 566 00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:39,170 the more independent you think you are, 567 00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:43,370 likely the more anxious you are and you're shut down to that anxiety. 568 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,490 It's crazy though. We're kind of saying like the more certain you are , 569 00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:50,930 the more of a problem it is. Well it's, it's actually kind of true on any level, 570 00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:53,650 right? The more, if you're completely uncertain or completely, 571 00:33:53,670 --> 00:33:58,370 if you're in either extreme of I don't have any earthly idea what I'm doing 572 00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:02,370 or I absolutely know what I'm doing, that's a sign of defense. 573 00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:04,650 Because when we're in our protection system, 574 00:34:04,650 --> 00:34:09,410 there are certain patterns of our protection system that are inherently part of 575 00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:11,930 being alive and surviving as a mammal. 576 00:34:12,270 --> 00:34:16,450 And one of them is you have to make really quick decisions. If you're in threat, 577 00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:18,410 you can't debate, you can't be curious, 578 00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:20,770 you can't wonder why the hell somebody's chasing you. 579 00:34:20,830 --> 00:34:24,450 I'm wondering if he's good or bad. You just run. It's just instinctual. 580 00:34:24,990 --> 00:34:29,610 So if you are in a very concrete black and white, it's good, 581 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,250 it's bad, it's right, it's wrong. And it's very clear. 582 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:37,730 There's a good chance that that's your protective system moving a little too 583 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,730 fast and clarifying a two black and white. 584 00:34:41,150 --> 00:34:44,410 So one of the signs that you're more in your connection system is that you have 585 00:34:44,410 --> 00:34:47,250 curiosity. Why is it so important for me to be independent? 586 00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:49,810 Like what would happen if I had to rely on somebody? 587 00:34:50,110 --> 00:34:53,850 So if you bring curiosity to these parts of your personality that you say, 588 00:34:53,850 --> 00:34:56,970 this is me and you're gonna answer first. Well of course, 589 00:34:57,130 --> 00:35:00,730 'cause I was raised to be secure, right? But flip that on its head. 590 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,250 What is so threatening? So if you say, I'm so independent, 591 00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:09,010 say what is so threatening to your body If you let yourself feel 592 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,750 your dependence and if you really feel that, 593 00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:16,990 and those of you out there might be going, oh, shut up. That does, you know, 594 00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:19,750 but that little threat in your body when you consider it, 595 00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:21,670 that's your nervous system talking to you. 596 00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:25,470 And that's what we suggest you listen to. Yeah, that's that tuning in. And, 597 00:35:25,470 --> 00:35:30,030 and I love that you didn't get into the different ways that we activate 598 00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:33,990 because I think what's just important right now is that we're either like, 599 00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:38,880 just like you said, that we're either in our connection system, which generally, 600 00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:43,400 yeah, curiosity is a great sign that you're there. Wonderment, warmth, 601 00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:47,120 especially like warmth for yourself. Like compassion, like God, this is hard. 602 00:35:47,860 --> 00:35:49,880 Or somebody's doing their thing that they do, 603 00:35:50,110 --> 00:35:54,080 that we can see them with care and love and curiosity and compassion. 604 00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:57,520 That's all good stuff that we want more of. And that means you're in your, 605 00:35:57,550 --> 00:35:58,960 what we would call the green zone. 606 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,660 And then all you need to know is like you're either there or you're not. 607 00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:07,040 And when you're not, it's all those other things that you were saying. 608 00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:10,520 And I think that's easier than somebody trying to figure out which way that they 609 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:11,640 have activated. And, 610 00:36:11,860 --> 00:36:15,400 and other podcasts we go into a lot of detail about the different ways. 611 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,720 Our nervous system, it doesn't have a lot of moves, it only has a few moves, 612 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:19,270 , 613 00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:23,560 then it becomes easy to figure out what move you make and then how to get back 614 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,393 to green. 615 00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:28,880 So we will be linking a bunch of other shows episodes for those of you that want 616 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,570 more. We're trying to keep it simple and high level. But I, I just, 617 00:36:33,090 --> 00:36:35,450 I love that that being the first thing, right? Like you're either, 618 00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:39,850 are you in your protection system or in your connection system and really 619 00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:42,970 learning your own signs. And both of those are about attachment, right? 620 00:36:42,970 --> 00:36:47,010 Like if you're in your protection system, it may be that you need to be like, 621 00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:51,930 if you feel rigid and you feel it may be that you are in a culture that is 622 00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:55,930 rejecting, it may be that the government around you is trying to suppress you. 623 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,090 Yeah. You're being persecuted, right? By the government, right? 624 00:36:59,090 --> 00:36:59,923 Because of your gender. 625 00:37:00,350 --> 00:37:05,330 So if you have been brought up throughout your life in a way that leaves you in 626 00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:07,290 an unsafe, the environment, 627 00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:10,650 the system that you're in really literally is threatening, 628 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,210 then the system that you're in, 629 00:37:13,230 --> 00:37:16,970 the attachment relationship that you have and how you protect yourself and how 630 00:37:16,970 --> 00:37:20,370 you connect is probably the perfect adaptation for you. 631 00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:24,650 So it's really important to kind of not think of these things as negative, 632 00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:28,130 right? Like we're gonna, if we have to rely on our protection system. 633 00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:32,810 But the key is what we're recommending is no matter what that you're aware of 634 00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:32,930 it. 635 00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:36,330 Because if you live in that and you're not aware that you're in your protection 636 00:37:36,330 --> 00:37:39,040 system, then it's such a disservice to you. 637 00:37:39,830 --> 00:37:42,640 Does that make sense to you what I'm saying? Oh my gosh, it totally does. 638 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,600 And I'm so happy that you brought up about the systems and we can tie that 639 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,280 directly back to this thing about that we can't consciously see it. 640 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:53,600 So if you're in a culture that you, 641 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,480 the color of your skin makes you a target, for example. 642 00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,520 So post-colonialism racism, 643 00:38:00,630 --> 00:38:04,560 just being in a racist society is it's own trauma. 644 00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:09,160 But because it's not identified as that and it's just again seen as normal, 645 00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:12,960 what typically will happen is that we would internalize that and make it about 646 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,793 ourselves. 647 00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:17,480 And so part of what's important about this is to begin to really name and 648 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,600 identify some of the traumas and the experience of being overlooked, 649 00:38:21,660 --> 00:38:26,520 of being devalued of all of these things that often are unnamed and maybe even 650 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,920 unrecognized because they're just cinnamon in the cinnamon roll. 651 00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:33,720 It's just the way it is, the way society is, but it's wrong. 652 00:38:34,180 --> 00:38:36,720 And that's all, all been absorbed into your nervous system. 653 00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:41,680 So part of this being curious is why do I feel bad about, 654 00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:42,780 you know, 655 00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:47,520 my gender expression or how my hair looks to really 656 00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:48,613 get into that. 657 00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:52,240 So being curious about it as a way again of having more compassion and 658 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,880 protection for your like healthy protection for yourself. 659 00:38:55,220 --> 00:38:57,760 Not internalizing negative cultural messages. 660 00:38:58,460 --> 00:39:00,840 So this is true like on the individual level mm-hmm. 661 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,600 and on the societal level, I love that. 662 00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:05,440 And that actually is what can be so hopeful. 663 00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:10,800 The reason we love doing this podcast is this is not just about explaining who 664 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,840 you are, it's about discovering for all of us. We're keep discovering, 665 00:39:14,850 --> 00:39:16,040 we're discovering with you. 666 00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:20,600 But as we have the curiosity about what we feel and why we feel it, 667 00:39:21,140 --> 00:39:23,400 we have more agency, it's about having agency, 668 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,840 the security is about how we relate in our community. 669 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,760 And as we develop the ability to feel more secure in ourselves and to use these 670 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,400 protection systems with more awareness, 671 00:39:33,870 --> 00:39:35,800 even if you're highly in your protection system, 672 00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:40,840 if you're aware of it and you're allowing yourself to feel connected to yourself 673 00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:44,760 and other people with this awareness, you're working in a secure way, 674 00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:49,840 you are working in a secure related position. So even if we're in threat, 675 00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:53,600 that doesn't mean that we've popped out of the green zone, you know? 676 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,280 And we've done a lot of neurobiology on these podcasts, 677 00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:57,680 so we won't go into that right now. 678 00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,680 But just that what you're saying is being aware, 679 00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:02,880 like if I'm aware that I'm defensive, 680 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:08,240 it means that that some of the top of my mind is still active and like I still 681 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:09,073 have some choice. 682 00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:12,920 Am I gonna behave defensively or just notice I'm defensive and try not to, 683 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,960 or identify what part of me is feeling attacked or what's the threat like, 684 00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:21,760 in other words, the activation of the wanting to protect ourselves. 685 00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:25,000 That in and of itself isn't the thing that pops us out of the green. 686 00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:28,440 It's losing our thinking and losing our heart. 687 00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:32,600 Like when we're protecting ourselves, we're not connected like to ourselves. 688 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,360 They go against each other. Mm-hmm. . That's right. 689 00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:39,160 It's a self protection, which means that yeah, we, we overestimate what we know. 690 00:40:39,460 --> 00:40:43,360 It leads to this whole cascade of kind of individually focused 691 00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:48,040 orientation that is actually distorted. And that's a whole other thing, 692 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:49,520 that we won't get into today. 693 00:40:49,860 --> 00:40:51,880 But literally when we're in our protection system, 694 00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:57,040 the information coming into our bodies is actually distorted because of our 695 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,200 threat response, right? 696 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,040 So becoming aware of our threat response and our protection system, 697 00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:05,840 we're already getting a more clear narrative. I'm in my protection system. 698 00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:09,000 And what's really important about this is also relationship. 699 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,920 And I know we should wrap, 700 00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:14,040 but what's also important about that is that it's not only our connections to 701 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,440 ourself, it's connections to other people. 702 00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:18,240 If we're not aware that we're in our protective system, what are we gonna do? 703 00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:21,880 We're gonna project that on everyone around us. We're gonna blame, 704 00:41:21,930 --> 00:41:24,800 we're gonna defend, we're gonna criticize, we're gonna feel criticized, 705 00:41:24,810 --> 00:41:29,440 we're gonna feel righteous, we're gonna see them as needy or put ourselves down. 706 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:31,840 And when we really get aware, oh wait, 707 00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:35,440 our protection system makes us shut down emotionally when the other person's 708 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,200 upset, it's our protection system. 709 00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,480 And so therefore it makes sense that the other person is a little distressed 710 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,920 about that rather than you eye roll them or vice versa. 711 00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:46,800 So what we're an advocating for is that curiosity, 712 00:41:46,830 --> 00:41:50,400 that exploration and the openness, this is non shaming. 713 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,960 This is like you're gonna be able to have conversations with your friends, 714 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,480 with your partner, with your child that says, I'm just activated. 715 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,360 Rather than you're being blank. Like when you can talk about yourself first, 716 00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:05,400 rather than identifying the other person first, 717 00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:09,640 you're already more in the green secure way of relating with other people 718 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,770 because you're able to have that self-reflection. That's great. 719 00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:18,170 That's another walkaway tool is that as you get fired up a little bit, 720 00:42:18,190 --> 00:42:21,130 one you're noticing, but then Anne's move that she just said, 721 00:42:21,130 --> 00:42:23,410 which was rather than going just the lazy way, 722 00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:26,010 the natural way is assume the other person's done something. 723 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,970 What we're saying is let's band together . 724 00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:32,450 And as we begin to notice a spike in some sort of protection, 725 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,050 that we go inward first make the first move inward. Like, huh, 726 00:42:36,190 --> 00:42:40,700 what's going on with me? Huh? I just, oh all of a sudden my stomach. 727 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:41,673 You know what I'm saying? 728 00:42:41,810 --> 00:42:46,380 Just that move alone is gonna help you keep your higher functioning mind going 729 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,580 and it'll give you a better chance of staying in the green. 730 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,780 So today we're not gonna go in all the details of which you mentioned before 731 00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:58,980 about what are our more predictable ways of protecting ourselves. 732 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,500 But the good news is that as humans we are very predictable and we develop 733 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,940 predictable patterns that can be more easily recognized. 734 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,220 We are extremely complex beings, but when you break it down, 735 00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:12,820 because we all have our nervous systems and our nervous systems can only do 736 00:43:12,820 --> 00:43:14,620 predictable ways of engagement, 737 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,800 you can actually learn to recognize things in your system quite 738 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,280 readily and much more easily. And your partner system, oh, 739 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,120 you can see how they're lit up. Absolutely. So learning about this, 740 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:28,640 learning about your own system, 741 00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:33,240 do I go upregulated more frequently when I feel threat or do I go down and cut 742 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:34,240 off and disappear? 743 00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:38,680 Or do I need to shut down emotions or can I not stop being in my emotions? 744 00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:41,040 And so one of the things we'd suggest is, 745 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,480 is tune into some of the podcasts that we have that will be listed in the show 746 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,400 notes that will go into much more detail about the particular ways, 747 00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:52,220 our nervous system response and you know, 748 00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:53,780 whether it be our podcasts or you know, 749 00:43:53,780 --> 00:43:56,580 you can learn about attachment almost all over the place this point. Oh, 750 00:43:56,580 --> 00:43:57,240 that's true, that's true this. 751 00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:01,660 But I will say on our behalf that we have for years now been studying, um, 752 00:44:01,850 --> 00:44:05,980 that in relational neurobiology and all the more recent findings. 753 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,540 And our job here is to make the research apply clinically and apply 754 00:44:11,540 --> 00:44:14,580 to your daily life. And if you have been listening from the beginning, 755 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,940 you may have noticed that even how we talk about it changes as we keep learning. 756 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,980 So podcasts are great, there's so many, uh, resources out there. 757 00:44:22,530 --> 00:44:26,620 Look in the show notes, go to therapist uncensored.com/episodes. 758 00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:29,620 I don't remember what this episode number's gonna be, I wish I had it. 759 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,560 But you can also just put in the, um, 760 00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:35,960 in the search term attachment or you can put in, uh, relational neurobiology, 761 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,880 you know, or you can put it like you can search for anything. So that's great. 762 00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:41,640 Yeah, I think you can search for blue, red, and green I think on there. 763 00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:44,000 And you're gonna get . Yeah, yeah. 764 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,400 Check out the ones on the modern attachment spectrum. I think those, for sure, 765 00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,800 the later ones are gonna incorporate all the new stuff that we've learned. 766 00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:53,360 And if it says modern attachment, 767 00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:55,960 then we're probably really focusing on that kind of stuff. 768 00:44:56,140 --> 00:45:00,000 And then also anything about the spectrum really focuses on this as well. 769 00:45:00,910 --> 00:45:02,600 Okay. And if you're still listening, 770 00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:06,600 we hope that that means that you have found it interesting or valuable in some 771 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,000 way. And if that's the case, we really, the way they help us the most, 772 00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:11,800 there's a couple of ways. 773 00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:16,440 One is to leave us a review on your podcast player that helps us be 774 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:21,480 discoverable. We read them all and we really appreciate every one of them. 775 00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:27,160 The other is you could join in, we have a special online community. 776 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:31,760 We call them their, our, our neuro nerd group for our neuro nerds. That's right. 777 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,000 Yeah. That's at therapist uncensored.com/join. 778 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,700 And for as little as $5 a month, you get all kinds of, uh, 779 00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:44,410 extras including an ad free feed, which is awesome. But also, you know, 780 00:45:44,410 --> 00:45:47,090 we do all kinds of things. Just, I may as well mention some of, 781 00:45:47,090 --> 00:45:51,970 I'm saying like reading groups and often the authors themselves will come in 782 00:45:51,970 --> 00:45:53,730 at the end and answer questions. Not always. 783 00:45:54,340 --> 00:45:58,770 We've had some of the authors and the original researchers do direct teaching. 784 00:45:59,340 --> 00:46:02,050 We've led study groups before. They're peer groups. 785 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,690 There's all kinds of things that just kind of come up now and then. So yeah, 786 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,930 join in. We would love to have you, 787 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:10,770 not to mention you help get this podcast far and wide to those who might not 788 00:46:10,770 --> 00:46:14,890 otherwise get it by supporting us. So well, and while we're saying it, 789 00:46:14,910 --> 00:46:19,410 we also give a large portion of our corporate, like all the ad sales, 790 00:46:20,190 --> 00:46:24,490 we donate that to help mental health access for those traditionally left behind. 791 00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:29,210 So we're very happy about that and you guys are, help us do that. All right, 792 00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:31,810 thanks for joining us and we'll see you around the bid. 793 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:38,970 Therapist. 794 00:46:38,970 --> 00:46:41,450 Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. 795 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,010 This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.