We have a journey and,
and our journey has brought us to this place where we are,
where we need to talk about these things. We need to write about these things.
And we're going to, we're in the process of doing that because it,
there's just so much that is out there and trying to integrate all of the
information so that we could be helpful to our clients,
but be helpful to our colleagues so that we can do that in the period of time
that we have left in this world. There's so many moving pieces, you know,
there's so many things that happened to us. And even on the train,
the last train staff from Boston,
we upgraded to first class and, um,
this man kept checking our tickets.
He kept checking the tickets and we were like, what's going on?
He's not checking anybody else, but nobody else in first class looked like us.
And he was an African American male, like seventies, eighties, whenever.
And so when we got off, he said, no, I'm, I'm really sorry. I, I,
I just had to make sure checking your ticket. And we're like, no, that's okay.
We know that you were doing your job. He's like, I don't know what you girls do,
but I wanna just tell you that I'm proud of you.
I'm proud of you for sitting up there because it's that often that people like
us sit up here. And I just wanna thank you for what you do.
Welcome to Therapist Uncensored building on decades of professional experience.
This podcast tackles neurobiology,
modern attachment and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans.
Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.
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out. Okay, let's jump to the show.
This is the second of uh, two,
two-part conversation with Glyc Perez and Debra Chapman Finley.
Debra Chapman Finley is a licensed professional counselor and national board
certified counselor in private practice in Montclair, New Jersey.
She's the former director of clinical services at a domestic violence agency
and she has facilitated numerous workshops on race and
trauma. Uh, there's a wonderful big list of them, including racism,
culture and dissociation, microaggressions and clinical practice,
unmasking race with interracial couples. Tons of really great stuff.
It's an honor to have her. Also, we have Gria Perez.
She's a bilingual trauma focused therapist who is a licensed social worker.
She also has a private practice in New Jersey.
They both have completed their certificate program in traumatic stress studies
in Boston, Massachusetts.
And they also are both adjunct professors at New York University
where they teach racial and social microaggressions in clinical practice.
In the first episode, we were just getting going. In today's episode,
we really get into the nitty gritty. It's poignant, it's powerful,
and it's an honor to bring them to you.
Now I'm here with Deborah Chapman Finley and Glyc Perez.
And we're picking up with a particular group that was very influential for you.
Yeah,
especially where we were talking about this journey that both and I
have been on and continue This particular women of color,
and I guess we can call it a support group that we did was perhaps for us
one of the biggest, the largest,
the greatest influence for me about race.
How it shows up in families,
how it shows up in parenting and trauma that, oh my gosh,
there's a trauma that these women had in your history,
but there wasn't a meeting where race didn't come up.
So it was a group that we did it, and most of the women in the group,
I saw them individually and one of them had asked, could we do a group,
some kind of group? And it's like, okay, we'll we'll do it,
but I didn't wanna do it alone.
And so I asked Ria if she would join me in doing this group.
We thought we were gonna have set hours, but let me just say, first of all,
we realized that we did not do it the group in a Eurocentric
way at all. At all.
I think think having an African American woman and and a Latina and all the
women in the group were black, they were all professional,
pretty much professional women, educated women.
And it was an interesting dynamic for Ggl.
And I wanted Glister because Ggl had doing so much work
with children and I was working with the mothers and it would be great for them
to hear from Gria from the child's perspective because some of the things that
they want to talk about was their romantic life,
work life and their lives with their children. The first time we met, you know,
we were gonna do their typical two hour . We never really said that,
but we were gonna do it. And I think we had coffee and cookies.
Yeah, donuts or something. Yeah, donuts or something like that.
And they came in and chatted, but it wasn't comfortable, I don't think,
for any of us. And then I think it was like one of the women, you know,
because of the time it started at 6, 6 30, something like that,
they were hungry. They would say it's, can we order pizza or can we do this?
So yeah, that's, so that's why we started to get the idea of bringing in food.
And so she and I started to bring in food, I'd make a salad,
and then the women started bringing in food.
And if anybody saw my office,
when I talk about we had a spread, we had a spread.
Spread is boring and,
and the interesting thing about the food was the more food,
the more they shared.
And it was realizing this can't feel like therapy.
This cannot feel like therapy.
This has to feel like a group of women sisters
just getting together. Mm-hmm. getting together.
And even the food that everybody brought in meant something.
So that's kind of like how it started. Deborah would bring, you know,
salad and I would bring something else and you know, but some,
but they would say, oh, I'm bringing this. Oh my god,
you guys have to try this or this Chinese food or this or you know,
whatever it was. And that started the conversation and we saw that it got richer
as the food did. But it was just like I, Debra was talking about it,
how this was a great experience for her.
I thought it was the greatest experience for me professionally because it helped
me move my thought process when it came to parents.
And like Debra was saying, I was the only Latina in the room.
And so I felt like, oh wow, what can I contribute?
But it was like when I started to talk to them about children and how they view
certain things and kind of like established and engage in conversation about
what I saw, what I found,
and then my own personal experiences as a child bringing that stuff up too.
So it was like a, a little bit of everything to gain their trust.
And so were they paying for this group through their insurance?
Are you sitting in a circle? Where's the table? Is it in the middle?
Are you sitting around, you know, like just what does it look like?
It looked like a living room.
We had couches and two chairs and back then I had a pretty large office where
this was located. So yeah,
I had a long coffee table and we added to that coffee table to make it
look like it almost a long dining room table for the spread.
And there were a couple of things that begin to shift in that group.
One was the amount of food, and I'm sure all the other therapists,
all the cells that were, you know, everywhere,
but also how much they needed to know,
even though I was there therapists that they saw one-on-one and
then it was gria, okay. It was like this is a different set. Who are you?
So sometimes it meant some of the activities that we may have ask a brand,
okay, we did it too, you know, we might share.
And the question of sharing wasn't quite traditional
because we did share, we didn't make it about us, we didn't disclose stretch,
but how much you disclose,
how much you would share with them became very important to them.
Who are you? They knew we were the therapists,
but we were sort of like,
I call it the aunties in in impact communities, you know,
it's like that that's the person you can go to, you can talk about stuff, right?
And so there was a respect there. So it was the sharing, it was the hug,
you know, you're not supposed to,
but there was no way that we can say to these women, no, no, sorry,
you can't hug me. After they just poured out their heart, you know,
after they just shared somebody intimate and difficult historical
things that occurred to them as children and then how they were parenting their
children. I mean,
you can't get to that deep level and not greet them or
depart without a hug or you know, see you next week and just,
just that comforting, you know, feeling for them, you know,
that they were heard, they were seen,
they were understood and they were challenged,
but in a safe environment that we really worked very hard to
create where they were free to come in and talk about whatever they wanted.
So time boundaries was one where that you needed to ex nay, ,
ex nay on the time boundary. And then the food,
the hugging and then the self-disclosure is interesting too around,
it sounds like part of what needed to happen is a correct,
like a is a anti hierarchy because you mentioned the word respect
and it doesn't make you not the therapist.
That was so important. And I don't think the theory and I realized that we,
that we did that until stepping back and really looking at it because
there was never a time that we could say,
no matter what happened in that group,
that we weren't respected as the therapist,
but it wasn't as if we were the therapist.
It's a very difficult thing to explain.
We also had to co-sign some of their experiences, you know,
that it didn't just happen to you. It also happened to me like we,
certain things that we were exposed to certain things the way people made us
feel in certain places and spaces, you know, so, so it wasn't just,
oh let me just putte out all of this stuff. No, it was more about identifying,
oh yeah, you know,
this person needs right now to be supported and I have a similar experience and
it's okay to share that. We spent a lot of time validating. And again,
I'm gonna bring up something that a learning from Ken Hardy calls it V C r
validate challenge. And then you make your request.
People need to be validated because if I can validate you,
it doesn't mean I have to agree with what you're saying,
but if I can validate you, it says, okay, you've got it,
you understand, you hear me?
So they began to open up about a lot of their traumas and it
was like, okay, I knew a little bit, we knew some surface stuff,
but that was where I wanted to learn more.
And one of the things about validation is like you validate until that person
feels validated. Not until you feel that that person,
until they are giving you some kind of sign,
some kind of signal that they're co-signing with that and then you can proceed.
You can't push it. They really have to feel the validation.
So then you can't proceed with the challenge or anything else. Yeah.
And probably the,
the most difficult time in validated was when we had anger and rage in the room.
That was perhaps the most difficult time to make
space for the anger and the rage that would
come up in the room because of their experience.
Or sometime colorism brought up anger because you know,
we had some women of a darker hair when we had some, you know,
women have a light of you and you know, that stuff was in the room, in the room.
And hair and hair, all of that was in the room.
And to make space for that anger and help them to
understand that's really hurt, that's really your pain.
That's been your protector. But you have to validate that.
And while I may not,
or Syria may not have agreed with what they were saying or how they were
saying it, of course we wished, oh, wish you could put it in a different way.
But that's what you needed. That's what you needed.
You needed a space to be able to say, I'm fucking tired of this.
You needed a space to say it and be okay and not be judged
and still be held. So I think those were difficult times validating.
I bet.
I mean, how could, in a safe setting like that,
like it sounds like you found yourselves so that you were expressing
yourselves and then you heard them and you met them,
but you maintained it as enough of a frame that then the deepening could happen.
And I mean, how could there not be this aggression and rage?
So that totally makes sense. You know, you've learned so much from that.
And like what mistakes do white therapists ? First of all,
I love expanding our frame of like, what's good therapy.
It's not just what we've learned in school.
We learned from white scholars typically we're not aware of it.
Just like you weren't aware of internalizing when we were talking about them
making you white and then you have to like come back to yourself.
So we're not aware of it. But what are other things like,
because one of the things you had mentioned before was that they also spoke to
you about what it was like to see white therapists and the difference, you know,
translate that for us around, around, uh, what we can learn.
The persona that they would bring to the, to the white therapy room.
They didn't feel comfortable presenting certain things,
certain subjects and you know, so it would've came to race.
They didn't discuss it when it came to things that happened to them in their
history. They may or may not, depending on what the circumstances were,
because they were afraid of being judged or how they,
if somebody disciplined their children a certain way,
they were afraid that that, that, you know,
institutions were gonna be called in. So there was like this part of,
of them that needed to protect themselves, wanted therapy,
but needed to protect themselves.
I was telling Deborah that just about a few weeks ago,
I had like two back-to-back people, Kwame, that they wanted therapy.
And they said, first of all, you know, I,
I saw in your profile that you're Latina. And I'm like, yeah, I'm Latina.
And do you sit there in therapy and just listen or do you
actually talk? I was like, wait, what? What are you talking about? Oh, you know,
and then they, they start telling you the stories about the stuff that happens,
you know, or they're, you know, the,
the other stuff that happens is like when they do finally feel comfortable and
are and are saying something, then the question that comes back to them is,
well, are you sure that that's what they meant? Are you sure that that happened?
You know, so again, questioning them,
these are the kinds of things that happen and those are the kinds of things that
we heard all the time from these clients in the group as well as outside
of the group. And I would just add these women,
and I would say is true for most people of color are very much aware of the
stereotypes about who they are.
And so there were a number of times where they did not disclose about
a sexual assault and maybe their sexual activity afterwards because they're
aware, for example, with black women or Latinas, how they're viewed.
So that was one thing. And the other I think was be authentic.
Be authentic. One of my pet peeve when we presented and people wanted,
what do I do first? What do I do second?
It doesn't work that way because as people of color,
we have to always look for a safe place all the time.
Is this person safe? Am I gonna experience racism?
Am I gonna experience racial micrographs?
What am I going to experience from this person?
And just because you're the therapist doesn't mean that those thoughts don't go
away. And I think it's about being authentic,
being attuned because you can make a mistake. I've made mistakes.
I've had to repair relationships and still do because oh my gosh,
I didn't realize that I had some biases for women when they
did certain things. Oh, that's coming up. Oh, it's not her job to repair it.
It's my job to take ownership of how I screwed up,
how this stuff was here for me and how it came into the therapeutic
relationship. But it's being authentic. You can make mistakes.
We're human. We are not always gonna say the right things,
but people know when you're not being authentic, it comes through,
you may ask all the correct questions,
but people know when that's an authentic question and when it is said.
And that's part of why that you resist the list, is you don't want techniques.
There was something else in a conversation that we had previously that I think
was really important also about driving this home.
You talked about your reaction to some of the women's parenting
that you had a perspective on that. So this brings in trauma.
Do you mind sharing that?
That's a tough one. 'cause that was a big issue.
That was where we saw the anger and we saw a lot of of rage because there was a
lot of stuff coming from the generation above, like their own parents, you know,
and how they were treated and their childhood experiences.
And then you have those wounds and then you're become an adult still with those
wounds and then you're parenting the next generation.
So there was these expectations of children and all of these other things that
they were carrying.
So I remember this one woman because it just broke my heart that she came in one
session and she was really upset with her daughter and she was upset with her
daughter because her daughter had been standing on a toilet seat.
And we were like, okay, why would she be standing on the toilet seat? Oh,
because she wanted to look in the mirror.
Why would she look in the mirror on the toilet?
Because it was the only mirror that they had in the home.
This woman had her issues with her own race. I had a lot of stuff going on.
Her skin color wouldn't let the daughter go outside because she didn't want her
to get too dark.
They didn't want to have mirrors for certain reasons that she shared.
And so to me it was like, wow, this little girl,
what messages was she getting about herself? About her appearance,
about her skin color,
about who she was and if you stay with that person and that example,
so here we have the colorism issue there, right?
But this was also a person that was going through some questioning about her
ability in a white workplace.
And so they didn't always lead that at work. And a lot of times the,
the most of the women worked in white spaces and feeling invisible,
feeling not heard, feeling disrespected,
not of value in what we began to realize. It's like, okay,
I was ignored there,
no one's listening to me over here in that place. And it was sort of like,
well,
I'll be damned if I'm gonna come home and you are not gonna listen
to me.
So they were carrying all of that into the home and with their
kids in addition to their own trauma history.
And so the parenting,
I could see how other people would pathologize these women and we didn't wanna
pathologize them. It's like,
because talk about women who love their children would do anything for them,
but if you heard sometimes the way that they would talk and what would happen,
you would think otherwise.
And part of the group was talking about what it means to be in these
white spaces, how it does make you begin to question you.
I always used to love to share with them.
One of my favorite quotes by Maya Angelos used to say,
don't go through life carrying, um, two catchers men. One,
because you're carrying everybody else's stuff, it doesn't belong to you.
And helping them understand and making a safe place where they could talk about
racism, they needed to talk about it,
but we need to help them to see, okay,
when you're bringing it home and your child doesn't quite understand that you
just had a white coworker take credit for something you did .
You know, your child doesn't understand that. So a lot of that,
and I have to say race came up all the time and, and in the beginning,
I'll just say this real quick, they used to apologize. Like I, I'm sorry,
but I have to say this, I'm sorry, but I have to say this. And we'd say,
you don't have to apologize, it's your experience. It's okay,
it's okay.
And I'll just add this one other piece about the group that
we saw and knowing more about their trauma outside of the racial
piece and what I saw in working with them individually and both
and I felt we needed more training about trauma.
And that's when we started going to the, the trauma institute in Boston.
And for me,
I saw the way that these women would dissociate because the
dissociation was with an attitude. And I would think, oh,
an attitude and what was really happening was she left.
But that attitude face,
they would call it their resting bitch face was there because that was a
protector. It was sort of like, yes, yes. It's like, oh,
okay, that's what that's about.
And making space for that part to be able to vocalize what was going on,
what it felt. Yeah, yeah, everything.
Y'all are saying is so important, but these little things like that,
like you're,
it would be so easy to misinterpret and I totally agree about what lens
you're looking at related to the aggression towards the kids, you know,
being able to pull the lens back and also the adaptiveness so that if the kids
kind of then get their own armor, it's going to help them.
But we would historically call that an insecure attachment,
like that term insecure,
when actually it's an adaptive strategy and it works and it's
effective and that's why. So you know,
we need to watch ourselves from then looking at it from this other lens and
pathologizing it versus seeing the strength and seeing the,
how it makes sense.
But also staying present with them, you know,
staying present with them and holding them as they share these incredible
painful situations, you know,
and helping them kind of navigate past that and helping them recognize that they
were now in the present and they could affect change with their children in the
next generation. So it, it was an incredible time and, and,
and I remember instances where they just brought me to tears because it was just
so much.
And having heard the parent perspective working children was enormous.
It was a, a tremendous gift for me.
Then I was able to help the children kind of figure the stuff out for the
parents and how hard it was for the parent. Without them,
I wouldn't have been able to help that 14 year old boy that I talked about
earlier, letting him understand what happened to mom,
what was her story.
And then talking to mom and helping her understand what his story was.
That's where the repair needed to happen, you know,
the repair needed to happen and them knowing what they went through.
And so when they shared in the family session, it was incredible what happened.
You know, mom was able to, uh, with a lot of therapy,
was able to hold the child and apologize for certain things
and the kid was also able to apologize for some of the stuff.
And also explained to her those years that she wasn't present,
but the whole time she kept holding onto it. But I was there, I was there,
I was there. I called you every day. I called you every day. And she did.
She called them every single day for those years.
But being present in person was different than on the
phone. So she eventually got that.
And it also helped me understand some things about my own mother and my own
family and women and my family,
that they had their own family stories, their own traumas,
but they were also women of color.
And so they all had to deal with what they thought mean and all these outside
factors that affect their sense of self.
And so it became so important that they had to have some
place where they felt valued. And it's not out there,
but maybe I need it in here in my home. And I thought about, wow,
that was such a trigger for my mom. That was such a trigger for so many. Well,
you know, parents of color and they would call it respect.
That's a word that you can do an entire dissertation. What does that mean?
The people?
Because I've seen people behave in ways that you would never think that
they would when they feel disrespected.
And that was always the reason that these women would give,
they felt disrespected by their child. It wasn't a child that disrespected you,
it was the people on your job, but you didn't have,
you couldn't have a voice there. You had to submit there, you know,
because those were the microaggressions that were happening at work.
So that was the other thing that goes there.
And I looked at what trauma responses were happening to people at work.
So the fighter part of you wasn't gonna show up at work because you needed that
job. You needed that job. Yeah. And.
You would be given no leeway, nobody would understand. Right.
Right, right. But sometimes that fighter part showed up at home.
And then this was the other thing about the women in the group.
Black women learn very early on about being strong.
And there's a movie, I didn't like the movie, but the help,
but there's a scene that I always remember two scenes.
There's one where Viola Davis's character is talking to the little white
blonde-haired girl. And she's going, you kind, you're beautiful.
You're all of that, right?
And then there's another scene where I think her name is Octavia Spencer,
her the other name is talking to her daughter and she's talking about
strong and things are gonna be tough and you gotta be ready. And I'm like, yeah,
that's the stuff that we all grew up with.
And so did the women in that group. And so when they would cry,
not just about the times when there was anger and rage, but when they would cry,
we had to make space, let it out. It's okay,
you're still small to cry. To just cry.
And as they got more used to us and everything else,
because one of the things that we would do is do a check-in. So we would,
you know, Hey, so and so, how are you doing? How was your week? It was like,
I'm good.
And so the tissue box would be passed to that person because then it's like,
nah, no, we we know. No, you're not good. You're saying that and you're not.
And then they started to imitate us, like what Depa would say, what I would say,
so that they would like helping each other in that way. And it was just really,
really a, a very good experience and it was amazing.
And years later we're still in touch with them and,
and they talked about the impact and how it helped them to see and to become
better parents and present to be present, the adult part of them,
to be present with their children because it was just so hard for them.
And they didn't even realize all of the stuff that that was happening to them.
But they recognized their growth.
They also recognize each other's growth too.
The more we understood and learned about trauma and parts,
we were able to share and integrate that in our work with these women and
help them to even understand that that angry part,
that's a part that's just a part of you. It's a protector.
And it made a difference.
And we're very happy to say that the children of those women have done extremely
well.
I was just thinking about like, um, the seven generations beyond,
you know what I mean?
And the kind of impact that the two of you're having and that that group had on
one another is remarkable. Then you went to the, uh, vessels,
VanDerKolk's training. And what about racism there?
? Do you have more time? ?
Well, we have to talk about it because it's continuing to be perpetrated.
And then also the trauma concepts going back to like race as you
know, racial trauma, the systems, well.
First of all, our trip to Boston every week for nine months,
talk about trauma. That was a traumatic experience and it,
a lot of it was racial microaggression.
Could you give just a couple of examples?
I think this is an example of the differences. We have both women of color,
but the difference is in my being black and and Glister being a a Latino,
you wanna tell about all the train? Yeah. The first ride that we took, I,
you know, was pulling my,
my little luggage piece and I noticed that people weren't moving, you know,
and I, I didn't know why and I was getting really annoyed or whatever.
And so I said something to Deborah and she was like, oh yeah, they're,
nobody's gonna move for you. And I was like, wait, what do you, what do you,
why not? You know, I'm coming in with the thing. And she's like, yeah,
nobody's gonna move for you. So the second time that we went on the train,
the same thing happened and she says, watch, nobody's gonna move for you again.
And I was like, what are you talking about? Like,
and I couldn't believe that nobody moved for me to be able to navigate,
you know, like the aisle there on the train. You.
Had to go around them. They wouldn't seed space.
Yes. So then she's like, yeah, we move differently.
White people take up space and it's okay for them to do that and we have to
accommodate them, but they won't accommodate us. I'm like,
whatcha talking about my mind? Just up?
Because it never occurred to me. And it may have happened to me in the past,
but I never saw it. I never thought about it, never.
And until that moment and then I did it on purpose and I was like, oh my God.
And then I took up space to see.
And then you're gonna be perceived as aggressive.
Exactly. Yeah. Every week there was a different incident and um,
one week we were in the car,
everybody on that particular part of the train had their computers out and
Deborah and I were, were working and we're talking and we're,
ja we're laughing and whatever.
And we were creating a workshop and like two stops before hours a band
came over and he was getting out and he came over and he was like, you know,
I see the two of you working here and having a really good time. What,
what are you people working on? Everybody else was working.
He didn't go to anybody but he came to us because of course we're the only
people of color on the train. I was floored again, like how dare you ask me?
Like, it's not like he went around, you know? No, it was just us.
He insisted that we tell him what we were working on and we were
like insisting that we're not telling you anything that experience in,
in Boston. And also it was a great program. We learned a lot that it was a lot.
But it,
there was anything that I wish there could have been more of was the
integrating about race throughout the program.
And when there was anything about trauma for, you know,
with the marginalized group it was more so about, you know, the Holocaust,
which was traumatic, not taking anything away from,
but I just wish that there was more about immigration,
slavery. Yeah,
those are historical and intergenerational trauma that we're still
experiencing. And for me,
joy Grs book post-traumatic slave stern dorm helped me so much
in understanding all of the parenting styles.
It's rooted in protection so much about our culture and I think so many
cultures has to do with oppression and colonization and those things and they're
about survival. And I thought about even those women, yeah,
there were times that could've looked harsh, but they're trying to protect,
they're trying to prepare. They're a kid for this is what the world is like,
this is what the world is like. And in fact, one time they came at me,
remember she was like, you know,
no I'm not gonna because what do you want me to do Deborah?
I remember her saying, want me?
You want me to teach my boy to act like a little white boy? No,
that's what she said to me. And I'm like, oh lemme stop.
Lemme think about this because he's a black child and his life is
gonna be different when he walks out there.
It is gonna be different when he's a teenager. You know,
we had to check ourselves. 'cause there were times when the women triggered,
I got triggered and being in touch with what was happening with me.
Like in other words, you took that you didn't push back and say, no,
that's not what I meant. You were like, oh you're telling me something.
So that's good modeling for when that happens.
And then I'm also thinking about something that we often miss as we're looking
and we're working really hard to expand, you know,
how we see attachment and human development. You know,
we talk about like this cultural context umbrella and part of that umbrella
is some of the stuff that y'all are both talking about,
about protection and these cultural strengths that we might
miss. But that needs to be incorporated in how we're seeing someone.
Whether that means that there was a cultural strength that ends up backfiring
for them or just.
Plain old pride and culture and stuff like that,
that is part of human development.
And so really incorporating those kinds of things so that we're seeing a full
picture of someone.
Yeah, being more curious about what their thought process is. You know,
that piece about the kid needing to respect you. Because when I say no,
it's no because it's dangerous. If I'm telling you, don't go here,
don't do this. It's because it's dangerous and you need to listen.
It's a lot of that, like Deborah was saying,
protecting their child because they can't be with their child 24 7.
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stories.com/to and glacier. I'm wondering,
Deborah's example.
Of black dissociation, the lens on that is there,
have you noticed anything related to that in the Latina community?
Is there a parallel.
Other than changing language?
Because I think that that sometimes happens when they start talking about like
their younger selves and when they start talking about their grandmothers or any
of their ancestors, there's a a shift. And also in the Latino culture,
there's a lot of spiritualism too.
So you're gonna get a lot of different things that happen in terms of how they
practice certain religious and what happens and, and disassociating that way,
or just not being present or just the whole thing about culture and how
women are supposed to be, how men are supposed to be and,
and just all of these different things that they're navigating.
So sometimes you, well at, at least for me, what I've seen is because,
'cause I've seen a lot of more bilingual women who have been born and raised
here, but when I see the immigrant families,
there's a lot of other stuff that happens for them. One of the things, Sue,
that I think I've struggled with when it comes to the attachment there is
it's usually about like as if there's only one caregiver, maybe two,
we may have multiple,
there probably are multiple caregivers in the home,
, you know, and it's like,
I could see how that could become pathologized because each one may have a
little bit different little, you know, twist. They may do, that's different,
but they all are looking out and trying to do what's best for their child.
And there is a message, yes,
like some people will get the message, it can be anything you wanna be,
but somehow in there there's a little bit of a, but then it's so, so,
so don't forget who you are kind of thing.
But there's the whole piece about caregivers and our resources and you
can't talk about attachment and connecting without including
ancestors. But people who were before us, we don't think,
just in terms of who's here,
you have to be open to that.
And maybe that's part of what we are talking about in the first segment.
Deconstructing that, letting that go and be open to, okay,
maybe that's not what I do for people who don't look like me.
Now I just talking about this from a poor white therapist.
That part about the ancestors is real important for me. I get a lot about,
well what church you go to? And we're like, okay, I'm not, you know,
I'm not really part of the church.
I grew up in a church and I had to figure out how do I answer that and not throw
it back at them with the question, well what does that question mean to you? No,
they don't wanna hear that nonsense.
It's like I had to think about because it said, you know,
I'm in search and I missed part. I grew up in the church,
I missed some aspects of the church, but I'm going through my own journey,
my own search. Oh, okay, yeah.
Authenticity. Yes.
Yes.
And you're not interpreting the question as a resistance or something like that.
It is like, okay, this is a bid for connection.
It's a bid for connection. That's what I meant about wanting in their,
in our own way, who are you? I know you are the therapist, but who are you?
And that's gonna let me know if I can trust you if this is a safe place.
And the other thing too for people of color or, or Latinas in particular,
Latinos at next, is the piece about balancing the cultures,
balancing the culture and who,
who you are in front of your parents and who you are, you know,
in the community.
And just balancing who they are and what's going on with them.
You know,
they may respond a certain way in front of their family as to certain things,
but then there's this other piece that their family may not even know about
them.
So there's all of these like cultural expectations and pressures too.
Multiple identities. And you know,
I'm just a few hours from the border where kids
are being detained and separated. It is trauma on top of trauma.
On top of trauma, right.
Yeah.
We're big fans of Janina Fisher and had done some work with Janina and love her
part work and Janina had this chart about how trauma
shows up as symptoms and I was very proud of how we
took that chart. And we thought about, yes,
but so does racial trauma show up as symptoms as well?
Like the fear of being weak racially hypervigilant,
racial trauma shows up as symptoms as well.
And the rethinking of what I should have said,
what I should have done.
I just shared with er and I had never told my husband about this that happened
to me years ago. My younger brother had passed away,
but before he passed away,
he was in the hospital and he had been on dialysis for a number of years and
I had gone to see him and I was by myself and he was tired,
he didn't wanna do it anymore.
They were giving him dialysis in his hospital room and he ripped everything out
and the blood was shooting up like a guy. And he was telling me, get out,
get out. And I understand it all now. They made me leave,
but when I got on the elevator,
the white doctor and a white nurse got on the elevator and the white doctor
literally took off part of my care like that and said, what if this, you know,
I feel like I'm gonna cry.
And they started laughing and they were only on the elevator like for one or two
floors and it got off.
And I think I realized that in that moment I froze
because I just had a traumatic moment in that hospital room with my
brother, with my younger brother.
And then to get on the elevator and the fact that he did that
and all these years later,
once I had told er about it because something else happened that made me think
about it and remember it. And then when I told my husband about it,
I couldn't stop thinking about what I should have done, what I should have said,
why I let him get away with that. And I had to work through, yeah,
but do wait for one traumatic situation and that hospital and with
my brother to that. And then it became what brings him the right,
what made him think he had a right to just touch my hair and go,
what is that, what is this? Like that to me.
And that happens a lot I think with people when we go through racial
microaggressions or racist things,
it plays in your head over and over because it's like,
oh what I should have said. All of those things, you know? Yeah. And it,
and it's funny 'cause you, when you were talking about that, Deborah,
I was thinking about when we were pulled over by the police,
we were driving from a phenomenal conference and we were talking
about it in the car and we were getting towards Deborah's exit to her house and
Deborah was driving and as she was talking,
she was moving her hand and she had her sunglasses in her hand.
So she's talking and she says, you know, there's some state trooper behind us.
And I said, oh, okay. She's like, I think he's following us. And I was like,
really? He's probably just gonna get off. No,
he got off right behind us and pulled us over.
Now this is the summer where a lot of black men and children had been killed,
right?
And so I'm looking at the side mirror and he's got his hand on his gun
and my heart started racing and all I could remember was, you know,
put your hand on the dashboard. And that's what I did. And I said, Debra,
put your hand on the dashboard. But Debra was like, wait,
why are we getting pulled over? And she didn't do that.
And so here he comes and I'm like, Debra, put your Debra. You know, like I was,
I was really nervous because I was seeing one thing on one side.
I didn't say it that lic you didn't say it that lic.
I was de he on the glass board's. Like, she's like, but I don't have any what,
what? We didn't do anything. I don't have what, what, you know,
what are we doing? And then of course,
I was so nervous I couldn't do the window.
Debra did the window and then he was like, license registration insurance.
And we're like, but what happened? License registration and insurance.
And I can't tell you my heart was pounding.
He said that I was on my phone and I said, no,
my phone is in the backseat with my purse. It's my sunglasses.
But what was so scary about that,
it's how quickly it could have escalated,
how quickly he thought my phone was something else and he kept his hand on his
gun the entire time,
but he didn't tell us anything until he went and checked her car,
until he checked my car and then he followed us to where we were supposed to
turn. It was so unbelievable. And,
and we just kept saying seconds, just seconds. What can happen?
You know, we have a journey and,
and our journey has brought us to this place where we are,
where we need to talk about these things. We need to write about these things.
And we're going to,
we're in the process of doing that because there's just so much that is out
there and trying to integrate all of the information so that we could be helpful
to our clients,
but be helpful to our colleagues so that we can do that in the period of time
that we have left in this world. There's so many moving pieces,
you know, there's so many things that happened to us. And even on the train,
the last train staff from Boston,
we upgraded to first class and um,
this man kept checking our tickets.
He kept checking the tickets and we were like, what's going on?
He's not checking anybody else, but nobody else in first class looked like us.
And he was an African American male, like seventies, eighties, whenever.
And so when we got off, he said, no, I'm, I'm really sorry,
I I I just had to make sure checking your ticket. And we're like, no,
that's okay. We know that you were doing your job. He's like,
I don't know what you girls do, but I wanna just tell you that I'm proud of you.
I'm proud of you for sitting up there because it's not often that people like
us sit up here and I just wanna thank you for what you do.
And every time we tell that story, we get emotional because,
because it was like we were seen and we heard him and
we thanked him for that because it was such a difficult journey back
and forth to Boston. Not just him,
there was another African American conductor and he would talk to us.
And so when this elderly conducted,
got off the train to make sure he said something to us, he probably knew,
we knew he of checking us over and over and over again.
And he wasn't checking because he thought we didn't belong there.
He was texting because he knew all of those white men that were in that
particular car while watching him. And that's why he did it.
It was so powerful because of everything that we had gone through.
And then at the very end to have somebody just recognize it,
it made such a difference.
And it reminded me of the women of color group where they said that we made such
a difference, difference to them. And realizing how,
I think you had said it to me,
that this area about how we held them talking about connected and
attachment, I think we did that for them. What they didn't have before,
what they didn't have before and we lost of being connected and valued
feeling that they were valued. And we kept saying to them recently,
I wish I knew about sensory motorcycle therapy back then.
I wish we knew about this and that or whatever.
So that we could have implemented that in the group and gotten and they're like,
no, we, you guys gave us everything.
Absolutely. And you know,
we're talking specifically racial trauma and the last three examples that you
all just gave, first of all, thank you so much for sharing.
So painful. You know, we have to feel this, this is the truth,
but every single one that you just said by itself
is enough. It's too much. This is just, you're just rip. You know,
they're just there and there and there, you know, there's,
and there's so many that you're not saying and wow.
And thank you for sharing these things.
Like that whole questioning yourself part just makes me so angry.
But I totally get it. It's like, did that happen? What should I,
did that even happen? Did it mean, uh, uh, uh, you know what I mean?
That it's the invisible nature of it,
which is part of your work and that you're wanting to get this message out.
But you mentioned Glyc, the writing and some groups.
So can y'all speak to that a little bit about folks that are interested and want
more?
Well we definitely wanna write about this group of women that we've worked with.
So we're in the process of doing that.
But then we'd like to begin a group for therapists of color, which we mentioned,
you know, to just cut lead with a consultation group for therapists,
therapists of color and white ally, you know, like we were talking about.
Go ahead and say it again though,
in case somebody didn't hear that first episode.
We were saying about having a group of mixed therapists and the white ally
consultation group, the iPOC and white ally consultation group,
where the white allies should be open to reflect, to share and to be challenged.
And yeah, to feel unsafe and to deal with it. , you.
Know, you can say that, right? , I.
Can say that. You can say that. I'm serious. , right?
You're gonna feel unsafe. They, because you just gotta deal with it. Yeah.
Just trust, just trust the process of learning and growing and,
and that racial identity piece.
There's different steps and different things for people of color,
for white people.
Like those are the training things that people really should kind of look for
and do so that they can grow with themselves, you know,
so that they can be present just even for themselves.
Because even like we've talked about when even there's two white women in the
room, priest is still there, culture is still there, you know, classes is there,
you know, all of these factors are there and they're present and it's important.
Even when my practice had more white clients as part of
my intake, I've asked them, how do you identify?
And white people can never answer that question. I would get, I'm American, I'm,
I'm an, uh, it's like, but a person of color they could tell you.
And so I would just, okay,
how do you identify racially and the discomfort to say
I'm white. Okay, and then I'm this and I'm that. I'm, I'm a kind of that, okay,
but can we just acknowledge that race is present? They're too white.
Yeah, white people don't know that we are a race , like right,
that it's just the norm. No, it's in the room. Even among two white people.
It's a shared disassociation.
So I just wanted to mention two other things through Therapy Wisdom.
Deborah and I did a training with Janina Fisher.
If anyone is interested in that, we, we could sit and do the link.
And also Pessi uk,
we also did like part of their certification program there too. So you know,
we've done these kind of things also online.
So if people are interested in that, that'll be great.
The other thing too is I wanted to just also promote,
because we love her so much is Janina Fisher's program assist also through
Therapy Wisdom,
which I think is phenomenal for people who are know trauma,
who know parts work.
And she really helps you put all of those things together also with sensory
motor.
And it's just a nice package to be able to just kind of like utilize,
she's very grounded and she makes it very easy to
understand about holding and being present for the client and
all parts of that client is really important.
The training that we did for SS E U K,
we did it last year and it's happening again this year.
Certificate program on complex P T S D and dissociation.
And the thing that was so interesting about that is that it was global.
It was being offered not just in the US and what's amazing,
we did piece about race and racial trauma and the anti-blackness
isn't just a US problem. Okay. I'll put it that way. . So.
You mentioned Pesi and it's P E SS I and that there was something
coming up that you're gonna do. So when is that?
What is it? You call your notes, sir. People can see notes. Yes,
there's a link and the training start April 6th,
I think it goes for like almost nine months. It's a,
it's a long training and they have all the top people. Yeah, everybody.
Oh yeah, look at that. We're a part of it too. We're part of the,
everybody in that one we've never met all of them, but .
That's a different kind of belonging, right? Yeah. It's like .
That's wonderful.
But it's one of those if recorded. So if you can't be there,
you can't still watch it. Take the test,
get your CEUs because it's recorded and they keep the recordings up.
If you join later, it's okay because you still have to watch it take the exam.
The thing that you won't be part of is the live q and a.
All of the presenters present,
and then there's a live q and a about what they presented.
So if you're not online at that moment when that's taking place,
then you just will be part of that. You'll hear it.
And then the therapy wisdom that we did with Janina was a lot around.
These are incredible resources and we're gonna have even more resources for
reading PDFs, all kinds of things on our show notes.
And you can find those@therapistsandsensor.com.
And then there's a search function in case you're listening to this much later.
And if you'll just even put race, racial trauma, anything like that in search,
actually anything you're interested in. But to find these show notes,
that's how you would look for those. And if,
if somebody is listening now and they're interested in contacting you directly,
is that welcome? How would somebody do that?
I can give them my email address. It's D as in Deborah Chapman,
c h a t m a n, Finley, f i n l e y,
all one word. D chapmanFinley@mac.com.
And Glister, would you like to share something like that or.
Well, my email address is g Perez,
p e r e z lcss w@gmail.com.
And then Debra and I both,
if anyone is interested in the consultation groups that we talked about also we
didn't mention, but we were, we were also interested in working with Bipo men,
having a Bipo men support group,
just to kind of like for us to be able to have that experience,
kind of see what the women went through.
But we're also seeing stuff that's going on with a lot of the men that we're
working with. Our email address there is Bipo,
B I P O C I N G,
therapist with an S gmail.com.
You all have been so generous to share your wisdom and your perspective and your
pain. I cannot thank you enough. Thank.
You for inviting us. Yes. And making this so easy. Yeah, so easy.
We could talk forever.
'cause Deborah and I like to talk and can I share something with you, Sue?
You said something and it was so authentic to me and you settled to me.
Listen,
if I say something or do something that it's comfortable, that's a racial,
like call me out. You basically let me know. I wanna know in the moment.
And I was like, oh. And when you said it,
if you could have saw the little thing over my head, it would've said,
oh my gosh, she's for real. So anyway, . But, but I was,
I was on that call, I was on that call and what I heard was, oh, she's safe.
Okay, , that's what I heard.
Y'all,
this is probably the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me as far as like as,
as far as how I'm taking it,
as far as the most meaningful thing that is so incredibly,
it's funny that you say it because I almost,
when we ended before and when I ended now, I almost again invited like,
how did we do? Because if we're saying this happens everywhere,
it's almost like, can we find it here? Or, or this example of like,
something that did go well.
So I'm glad that you brought that back up because it's,
it is up to us to really invite it because it has been so shut
down and, and not believed.
So I'm inspired by both of you around the invitation of like, we don't know,
we're in the process. We're, I have a white body. It's been a,
it's a very different experience, you know,
even sitting and sharing with me really, really, really meaningful.
So I think this is a good launching pad for everybody around inspiring
folks to keep doing the work, their own identity work, and then to expand.
And we at Therapist Uncensored are committed to this.
We're committed to continuing to expand the idea of attachment and human
development and what it looks like,
and including culture and class and context and race
and gender and all the things. So thank you for listening.
If you're still listening, it means that you hopefully found some value.
We encourage you to help us get the word out about these perspectives and share
this episode with anybody that you think could be benefited,
including your class. Let's say you're in a university class, right?
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And wherever you get your podcasts,
there's usually a little place where you can send us a little note.
We're always interested in hearing from you. Um, okay.
Thank you again and we'll see you around the bend.
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