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We have a journey and,

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and our journey has brought
us to this place where we are,

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where we need to talk about these things.
We need to write about these things.

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And we're going to, we're in the
process of doing that because it,

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there's just so much that is out there
and trying to integrate all of the

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information so that we could
be helpful to our clients,

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but be helpful to our colleagues so that
we can do that in the period of time

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that we have left in this world.
There's so many moving pieces, you know,

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there's so many things that happened
to us. And even on the train,

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the last train staff from Boston,

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we upgraded to first class and, um,

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this man kept checking our tickets.

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He kept checking the tickets and
we were like, what's going on?

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He's not checking anybody else, but
nobody else in first class looked like us.

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And he was an African American male,
like seventies, eighties, whenever.

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And so when we got off, he said,
no, I'm, I'm really sorry. I, I,

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I just had to make sure checking your
ticket. And we're like, no, that's okay.

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We know that you were doing your job.
He's like, I don't know what you girls do,

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but I wanna just tell you
that I'm proud of you.

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I'm proud of you for sitting up there
because it's that often that people like

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us sit up here. And I just
wanna thank you for what you do.

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Welcome to Therapist Uncensored building
on decades of professional experience.

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This podcast tackles neurobiology,

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modern attachment and more in an honest
way that's helpful in healing humans.

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Your session begins now with
Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

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So I don't like being contained
by anybody else's rules,

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so much so that I can't even stay on a
budget that I make myself because I don't

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want to tell myself what to do.

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But there is one containing
thing that I do every single day,

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and that's to wear a bra. It's not
the patriarchy making me suit up.

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It just feels better. To me, A bra is the
only clothing item you wear every day.

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And let's be honest,

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we often have a favorite and just
wear that puppy over and over again.

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Wash it and wear it again. <laugh>.

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out. Okay, let's jump to the show.

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This is the second of uh, two,

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two-part conversation with Glyc
Perez and Debra Chapman Finley.

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Debra Chapman Finley is a licensed
professional counselor and national board

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certified counselor in private
practice in Montclair, New Jersey.

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She's the former director of clinical
services at a domestic violence agency

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and she has facilitated
numerous workshops on race and

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trauma. Uh, there's a wonderful
big list of them, including racism,

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culture and dissociation,
microaggressions and clinical practice,

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unmasking race with interracial
couples. Tons of really great stuff.

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It's an honor to have her.
Also, we have Gria Perez.

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She's a bilingual trauma focused
therapist who is a licensed social worker.

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She also has a private
practice in New Jersey.

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They both have completed their certificate
program in traumatic stress studies

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in Boston, Massachusetts.

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And they also are both adjunct
professors at New York University

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where they teach racial and social
microaggressions in clinical practice.

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In the first episode, we were just
getting going. In today's episode,

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we really get into the nitty gritty.
It's poignant, it's powerful,

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and it's an honor to bring them to you.

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Now I'm here with Deborah
Chapman Finley and Glyc Perez.

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And we're picking up with a particular
group that was very influential for you.

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Yeah,

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especially where we were talking about
this journey that both <inaudible> and I

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have been on and continue This
particular women of color,

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and I guess we can call it a support
group that we did was perhaps for us

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one of the biggest, the largest,

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the greatest influence for me about race.

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How it shows up in families,

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how it shows up in parenting
and trauma that, oh my gosh,

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there's a trauma that these
women had in your history,

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but there wasn't a meeting
where race didn't come up.

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So it was a group that we did it,
and most of the women in the group,

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I saw them individually and one of
them had asked, could we do a group,

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some kind of group? And it's
like, okay, we'll we'll do it,

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but I didn't wanna do it alone.

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And so I asked Ria if she would
join me in doing this group.

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We thought we were gonna have set hours,
but let me just say, first of all,

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we realized that we did not do
it the group in a Eurocentric

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way at all. At all.

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I think think having an African American
woman and and a Latina and all the

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women in the group were black,
they were all professional,

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pretty much professional
women, educated women.

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And it was an interesting dynamic for Ggl.

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And I wanted Glister because
Ggl had doing so much work

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with children and I was working with the
mothers and it would be great for them

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to hear from Gria from the
child's perspective because
some of the things that

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they want to talk about
was their romantic life,

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work life and their lives with their
children. The first time we met, you know,

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we were gonna do their typical two hour
<laugh>. We never really said that,

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but we were gonna do it. And I
think we had coffee and cookies.

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Yeah, donuts or something. Yeah,
donuts or something like that.

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And they came in and chatted, but it
wasn't comfortable, I don't think,

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for any of us. And then I think it
was like one of the women, you know,

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because of the time it started
at 6, 6 30, something like that,

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they were hungry. They would say it's,
can we order pizza or can we do this?

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So yeah, that's, so that's why we started
to get the idea of bringing in food.

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And so she and I started to
bring in food, I'd make a salad,

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and then the women
started bringing in food.

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And if anybody saw my office,

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when I talk about we had
a spread, we had a spread.

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Spread is boring <laugh> and,

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and the interesting thing about
the food was the more food,

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the more they shared.

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And it was realizing this
can't feel like therapy.

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This cannot feel like therapy.

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This has to feel like a
group of women sisters

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just getting together. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative> getting together.

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And even the food that everybody
brought in meant something.

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So that's kind of like how it started.
Deborah would bring, you know,

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salad and I would bring something
else and you know, but some,

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but they would say, oh, I'm
bringing this. Oh my god,

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you guys have to try this or this
Chinese food or this or you know,

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whatever it was. And that started the
conversation and we saw that it got richer

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as the food did. But it was just
like I, Debra was talking about it,

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how this was a great experience for her.

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I thought it was the greatest experience
for me professionally because it helped

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me move my thought process
when it came to parents.

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And like Debra was saying, I
was the only Latina in the room.

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And so I felt like, oh
wow, what can I contribute?

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But it was like when I started to talk
to them about children and how they view

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certain things and kind
of like established and
engage in conversation about

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what I saw, what I found,

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and then my own personal experiences
as a child bringing that stuff up too.

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So it was like a, a little bit of
everything to gain their trust.

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And so were they paying for this
group through their insurance?

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Are you sitting in a circle? Where's
the table? Is it in the middle?

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Are you sitting around, you know,
like just what does it look like?

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It looked like a living room.

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We had couches and two chairs and back
then I had a pretty large office where

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this was located. So yeah,

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I had a long coffee table and we
added to that coffee table to make it

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look like it almost a long
dining room table for the spread.

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And there were a couple of things
that begin to shift in that group.

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One was the amount of food, and
I'm sure all the other therapists,

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all the cells that were,
you know, everywhere,

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but also how much they needed to know,

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even though I was there therapists
that they saw one-on-one and

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then it was gria, okay. It was like
this is a different set. Who are you?

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So sometimes it meant some of the
activities that we may have ask a brand,

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okay, we did it too, you
know, we might share.

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And the question of sharing
wasn't quite traditional

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because we did share, we didn't make it
about us, we didn't disclose stretch,

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but how much you disclose,

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how much you would share with them
became very important to them.

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Who are you? They knew
we were the therapists,

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but we were sort of like,

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I call it the aunties in in
impact communities, you know,

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it's like that that's the person you can
go to, you can talk about stuff, right?

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And so there was a respect there. So
it was the sharing, it was the hug,

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you know, you're not supposed to,

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but there was no way that we can
say to these women, no, no, sorry,

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you can't hug me. After they just
poured out their heart, you know,

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after they just shared somebody
intimate and difficult historical

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things that occurred to them as children
and then how they were parenting their

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children. I mean,

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you can't get to that deep
level and not greet them or

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depart without a hug or you
know, see you next week and just,

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just that comforting, you know,
feeling for them, you know,

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that they were heard, they were seen,

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they were understood and
they were challenged,

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but in a safe environment that
we really worked very hard to

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create where they were free to come in
and talk about whatever they wanted.

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So time boundaries was one where
that you needed to ex nay, <laugh>,

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ex nay on the time
boundary. And then the food,

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the hugging and then the self-disclosure
is interesting too around,

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it sounds like part of what
needed to happen is a correct,

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like a is a anti hierarchy because
you mentioned the word respect

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and it doesn't make you not the therapist.

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That was so important. And I don't
think the theory and I realized that we,

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that we did that until stepping back
and really looking at it because

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there was never a time that we could say,

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no matter what happened in that group,

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that we weren't respected
as the therapist,

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but it wasn't as if we were the therapist.

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It's a very difficult thing to explain.

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We also had to co-sign some of
their experiences, you know,

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that it didn't just happen to you.
It also happened to me like we,

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certain things that we were exposed to
certain things the way people made us

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feel in certain places and spaces,
you know, so, so it wasn't just,

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oh let me just putte out all of this
stuff. No, it was more about identifying,

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oh yeah, you know,

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this person needs right now
to be supported and I have
a similar experience and

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it's okay to share that. We spent a
lot of time validating. And again,

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I'm gonna bring up something that a
learning from Ken Hardy calls it V C r

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validate challenge. And
then you make your request.

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People need to be validated
because if I can validate you,

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it doesn't mean I have to
agree with what you're saying,

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but if I can validate you,
it says, okay, you've got it,

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you understand, you hear me?

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So they began to open up about
a lot of their traumas and it

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was like, okay, I knew a little
bit, we knew some surface stuff,

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but that was where I wanted to learn more.

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And one of the things about validation
is like you validate until that person

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feels validated. Not until
you feel that that person,

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00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:04,450
until they are giving
you some kind of sign,

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some kind of signal that
they're co-signing with that
and then you can proceed.

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You can't push it. They really
have to feel the validation.

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So then you can't proceed with the
challenge or anything else. Yeah.

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And probably the,

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the most difficult time in validated was
when we had anger and rage in the room.

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That was perhaps the most
difficult time to make

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space for the anger
and the rage that would

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come up in the room because
of their experience.

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Or sometime colorism brought
up anger because you know,

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we had some women of a darker
hair when we had some, you know,

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women have a light of you and you know,
that stuff was in the room, in the room.

220
00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:54,430
And hair and hair, all
of that was in the room.

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And to make space for that
anger and help them to

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understand that's really
hurt, that's really your pain.

223
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That's been your protector.
But you have to validate that.

224
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And while I may not,

225
00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:15,110
or Syria may not have agreed with
what they were saying or how they were

226
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:18,630
saying it, of course we wished, oh, wish
you could put it in a different way.

227
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But that's what you needed.
That's what you needed.

228
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You needed a space to be able to
say, I'm fucking tired of this.

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You needed a space to say it
and be okay and not be judged

230
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and still be held. So I think those
were difficult times validating.

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I bet.

232
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I mean, how could, in a
safe setting like that,

233
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:45,470
like it sounds like you found
yourselves so that you were expressing

234
00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:47,630
yourselves and then you
heard them and you met them,

235
00:14:48,090 --> 00:14:52,760
but you maintained it as enough of a frame
that then the deepening could happen.

236
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:56,120
And I mean, how could there not
be this aggression and rage?

237
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So that totally makes sense. You know,
you've learned so much from that.

238
00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:04,040
And like what mistakes do white
therapists <laugh>? First of all,

239
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I love expanding our frame
of like, what's good therapy.

240
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It's not just what
we've learned in school.

241
00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:13,200
We learned from white scholars
typically we're not aware of it.

242
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Just like you weren't aware
of internalizing when we
were talking about them

243
00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:19,480
making you white and then you have
to like come back to yourself.

244
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So we're not aware of it. But
what are other things like,

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because one of the things
you had mentioned before
was that they also spoke to

246
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,760
you about what it was like to see white
therapists and the difference, you know,

247
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,840
translate that for us around,
around, uh, what we can learn.

248
00:15:34,540 --> 00:15:38,280
The persona that they would bring
to the, to the white therapy room.

249
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:42,640
They didn't feel comfortable
presenting certain things,

250
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,200
certain subjects and you know,
so it would've came to race.

251
00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:49,720
They didn't discuss it when it came to
things that happened to them in their

252
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history. They may or may not, depending
on what the circumstances were,

253
00:15:53,390 --> 00:15:56,960
because they were afraid of
being judged or how they,

254
00:15:57,060 --> 00:15:59,200
if somebody disciplined
their children a certain way,

255
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,520
they were afraid that
that, that, you know,

256
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,320
institutions were gonna be called
in. So there was like this part of,

257
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:08,040
of them that needed to protect
themselves, wanted therapy,

258
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,440
but needed to protect themselves.

259
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,240
I was telling Deborah that
just about a few weeks ago,

260
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I had like two back-to-back people,
Kwame, that they wanted therapy.

261
00:16:17,020 --> 00:16:19,600
And they said, first of all, you know, I,

262
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,680
I saw in your profile that you're
Latina. And I'm like, yeah, I'm Latina.

263
00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:27,200
And do you sit there in therapy
and just listen or do you

264
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,460
actually talk? I was like, wait, what?
What are you talking about? Oh, you know,

265
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,940
and then they, they start telling you
the stories about the stuff that happens,

266
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,460
you know, or they're, you know, the,

267
00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:41,460
the other stuff that happens is like
when they do finally feel comfortable and

268
00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:44,940
are and are saying something, then the
question that comes back to them is,

269
00:16:45,090 --> 00:16:49,020
well, are you sure that that's what they
meant? Are you sure that that happened?

270
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,820
You know, so again, questioning them,

271
00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:55,580
these are the kinds of things that happen
and those are the kinds of things that

272
00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,580
we heard all the time from these
clients in the group as well as outside

273
00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:03,780
of the group. And I would
just add these women,

274
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,380
and I would say is true for most people
of color are very much aware of the

275
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:09,820
stereotypes about who they are.

276
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:15,140
And so there were a number of times
where they did not disclose about

277
00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:20,500
a sexual assault and maybe their sexual
activity afterwards because they're

278
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,220
aware, for example, with black women
or Latinas, how they're viewed.

279
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,740
So that was one thing. And the
other I think was be authentic.

280
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:34,100
Be authentic. One of my pet peeve
when we presented and people wanted,

281
00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:35,900
what do I do first? What do I do second?

282
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,060
It doesn't work that way
because as people of color,

283
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,660
we have to always look for
a safe place all the time.

284
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,420
Is this person safe? Am I
gonna experience racism?

285
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,880
Am I gonna experience racial micrographs?

286
00:17:51,150 --> 00:17:53,200
What am I going to
experience from this person?

287
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:57,760
And just because you're the therapist
doesn't mean that those thoughts don't go

288
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,760
away. And I think it's
about being authentic,

289
00:18:01,010 --> 00:18:05,040
being attuned because you can make
a mistake. I've made mistakes.

290
00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:09,640
I've had to repair relationships
and still do because oh my gosh,

291
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,760
I didn't realize that I had
some biases for women when they

292
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:19,400
did certain things. Oh, that's coming
up. Oh, it's not her job to repair it.

293
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:23,320
It's my job to take ownership
of how I screwed up,

294
00:18:23,860 --> 00:18:27,880
how this stuff was here for me and
how it came into the therapeutic

295
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,080
relationship. But it's being
authentic. You can make mistakes.

296
00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:36,160
We're human. We are not always
gonna say the right things,

297
00:18:36,860 --> 00:18:40,640
but people know when you're not
being authentic, it comes through,

298
00:18:40,980 --> 00:18:42,800
you may ask all the correct questions,

299
00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:46,640
but people know when that's an
authentic question and when it is said.

300
00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:51,160
And that's part of why that you resist
the list, is you don't want techniques.

301
00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:55,240
There was something else in a conversation
that we had previously that I think

302
00:18:55,460 --> 00:18:57,960
was really important also
about driving this home.

303
00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:02,720
You talked about your reaction
to some of the women's parenting

304
00:19:03,670 --> 00:19:06,720
that you had a perspective on
that. So this brings in trauma.

305
00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:08,440
Do you mind sharing that?

306
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:11,600
That's a tough one. 'cause
that was a big issue.

307
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:16,760
That was where we saw the anger and we
saw a lot of of rage because there was a

308
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:21,400
lot of stuff coming from the generation
above, like their own parents, you know,

309
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:24,440
and how they were treated and
their childhood experiences.

310
00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:29,560
And then you have those wounds and then
you're become an adult still with those

311
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,640
wounds and then you're
parenting the next generation.

312
00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:37,520
So there was these expectations
of children and all of
these other things that

313
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:38,353
they were carrying.

314
00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:43,400
So I remember this one woman because it
just broke my heart that she came in one

315
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,960
session and she was really upset with
her daughter and she was upset with her

316
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,560
daughter because her daughter had
been standing on a toilet seat.

317
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:52,800
And we were like, okay, why would she
be standing on the toilet seat? Oh,

318
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,880
because she wanted to look in the mirror.

319
00:19:54,260 --> 00:19:56,240
Why would she look in
the mirror on the toilet?

320
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:59,240
Because it was the only mirror
that they had in the home.

321
00:20:00,150 --> 00:20:04,320
This woman had her issues with her own
race. I had a lot of stuff going on.

322
00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:07,400
Her skin color wouldn't let the daughter
go outside because she didn't want her

323
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:08,080
to get too dark.

324
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,160
They didn't want to have mirrors
for certain reasons that she shared.

325
00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:15,000
And so to me it was like,
wow, this little girl,

326
00:20:15,710 --> 00:20:19,880
what messages was she getting about
herself? About her appearance,

327
00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:21,240
about her skin color,

328
00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:25,880
about who she was and if you stay
with that person and that example,

329
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:30,400
so here we have the
colorism issue there, right?

330
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:34,360
But this was also a person that was
going through some questioning about her

331
00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,080
ability in a white workplace.

332
00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:42,720
And so they didn't always lead that
at work. And a lot of times the,

333
00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:46,760
the most of the women worked in
white spaces and feeling invisible,

334
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,920
feeling not heard, feeling disrespected,

335
00:20:50,420 --> 00:20:54,720
not of value in what we began
to realize. It's like, okay,

336
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:56,680
I was ignored there,

337
00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:02,160
no one's listening to me over here in
that place. And it was sort of like,

338
00:21:02,270 --> 00:21:02,560
well,

339
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,360
I'll be damned if I'm gonna come
home and you are not gonna listen

340
00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:08,213
to me.

341
00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:13,320
So they were carrying all of
that into the home and with their

342
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,560
kids in addition to
their own trauma history.

343
00:21:16,980 --> 00:21:19,240
And so the parenting,

344
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,240
I could see how other people
would pathologize these
women and we didn't wanna

345
00:21:24,270 --> 00:21:25,600
pathologize them. It's like,

346
00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:30,640
because talk about women who love their
children would do anything for them,

347
00:21:31,460 --> 00:21:36,080
but if you heard sometimes the way that
they would talk and what would happen,

348
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:37,840
you would think otherwise.

349
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:43,320
And part of the group was talking
about what it means to be in these

350
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,220
white spaces, how it does make
you begin to question you.

351
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:50,580
I always used to love to share with them.

352
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,660
One of my favorite quotes
by Maya Angelos used to say,

353
00:21:54,790 --> 00:21:58,260
don't go through life carrying,
um, two catchers men. One,

354
00:21:58,410 --> 00:22:02,660
because you're carrying everybody
else's stuff, it doesn't belong to you.

355
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,940
And helping them understand and making
a safe place where they could talk about

356
00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:10,970
racism, they needed to talk about it,

357
00:22:11,660 --> 00:22:14,280
but we need to help them to see, okay,

358
00:22:14,550 --> 00:22:19,190
when you're bringing it home and your
child doesn't quite understand that you

359
00:22:19,260 --> 00:22:24,210
just had a white coworker take
credit for something you did <laugh>.

360
00:22:24,910 --> 00:22:28,650
You know, your child doesn't
understand that. So a lot of that,

361
00:22:28,650 --> 00:22:32,610
and I have to say race came up all
the time and, and in the beginning,

362
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,290
I'll just say this real quick, they
used to apologize. Like I, I'm sorry,

363
00:22:36,290 --> 00:22:39,410
but I have to say this, I'm sorry,
but I have to say this. And we'd say,

364
00:22:39,470 --> 00:22:43,530
you don't have to apologize,
it's your experience. It's okay,

365
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:44,993
it's okay.

366
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:49,970
And I'll just add this one
other piece about the group that

367
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:54,770
we saw and knowing more about
their trauma outside of the racial

368
00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:59,650
piece and what I saw in working with
them individually and both <inaudible>

369
00:22:59,670 --> 00:23:03,210
and I felt we needed more
training about trauma.

370
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:06,810
And that's when we started going to
the, the trauma institute in Boston.

371
00:23:07,630 --> 00:23:08,490
And for me,

372
00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:13,730
I saw the way that these women
would dissociate because the

373
00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:18,450
dissociation was with an
attitude. And I would think, oh,

374
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:22,330
an attitude and what was
really happening was she left.

375
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:24,530
But that attitude face,

376
00:23:24,530 --> 00:23:29,370
they would call it their resting bitch
face was there because that was a

377
00:23:29,370 --> 00:23:34,130
protector. It was sort of
like, yes, yes. It's like, oh,

378
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,570
okay, that's what that's about.

379
00:23:37,230 --> 00:23:41,730
And making space for that part to be
able to vocalize what was going on,

380
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,110
what it felt. Yeah, yeah, everything.

381
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,800
Y'all are saying is so important,
but these little things like that,

382
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:48,420
like you're,

383
00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:53,360
it would be so easy to misinterpret
and I totally agree about what lens

384
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,400
you're looking at related to the
aggression towards the kids, you know,

385
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,360
being able to pull the lens back and
also the adaptiveness so that if the kids

386
00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:06,040
kind of then get their own
armor, it's going to help them.

387
00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,400
But we would historically call
that an insecure attachment,

388
00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:11,600
like that term insecure,

389
00:24:11,910 --> 00:24:16,560
when actually it's an adaptive
strategy and it works and it's

390
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,000
effective and that's why. So you know,

391
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,080
we need to watch ourselves from then
looking at it from this other lens and

392
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,600
pathologizing it versus seeing
the strength and seeing the,

393
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:28,560
how it makes sense.

394
00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:31,560
But also staying present
with them, you know,

395
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,520
staying present with them and holding
them as they share these incredible

396
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:38,320
painful situations, you know,

397
00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:42,920
and helping them kind of navigate past
that and helping them recognize that they

398
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,960
were now in the present and they could
affect change with their children in the

399
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,560
next generation. So it, it was
an incredible time and, and,

400
00:24:50,580 --> 00:24:54,400
and I remember instances where they just
brought me to tears because it was just

401
00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:55,573
so much.

402
00:24:55,580 --> 00:25:00,440
And having heard the parent perspective
working children was enormous.

403
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:02,600
It was a, a tremendous gift for me.

404
00:25:02,830 --> 00:25:07,240
Then I was able to help the children
kind of figure the stuff out for the

405
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,240
parents and how hard it was
for the parent. Without them,

406
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,320
I wouldn't have been able to help that
14 year old boy that I talked about

407
00:25:13,550 --> 00:25:17,800
earlier, letting him understand
what happened to mom,

408
00:25:17,950 --> 00:25:18,880
what was her story.

409
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:23,880
And then talking to mom and helping
her understand what his story was.

410
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:27,480
That's where the repair
needed to happen, you know,

411
00:25:27,500 --> 00:25:31,000
the repair needed to happen and
them knowing what they went through.

412
00:25:31,020 --> 00:25:35,240
And so when they shared in the family
session, it was incredible what happened.

413
00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:38,480
You know, mom was able to,
uh, with a lot of therapy,

414
00:25:39,020 --> 00:25:43,400
was able to hold the child and
apologize for certain things

415
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:47,640
and the kid was also able to
apologize for some of the stuff.

416
00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:51,440
And also explained to her those
years that she wasn't present,

417
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:55,520
but the whole time she kept holding
onto it. But I was there, I was there,

418
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,600
I was there. I called you every day.
I called you every day. And she did.

419
00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:01,720
She called them every
single day for those years.

420
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:06,840
But being present in person
was different than on the

421
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,360
phone. So she eventually got that.

422
00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:12,760
And it also helped me understand some
things about my own mother and my own

423
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,120
family and women and my family,

424
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:20,360
that they had their own family
stories, their own traumas,

425
00:26:20,860 --> 00:26:22,480
but they were also women of color.

426
00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:27,840
And so they all had to deal with what
they thought mean and all these outside

427
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,040
factors that affect their sense of self.

428
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,970
And so it became so important
that they had to have some

429
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:40,770
place where they felt valued.
And it's not out there,

430
00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:45,800
but maybe I need it in here in my
home. And I thought about, wow,

431
00:26:45,910 --> 00:26:50,400
that was such a trigger for my mom. That
was such a trigger for so many. Well,

432
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:54,320
you know, parents of color and
they would call it respect.

433
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:58,720
That's a word that you can do an entire
dissertation. What does that mean?

434
00:26:59,340 --> 00:26:59,800
The people?

435
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,720
Because I've seen people behave in
ways that you would never think that

436
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,680
they would when they feel disrespected.

437
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:11,880
And that was always the reason
that these women would give,

438
00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:17,000
they felt disrespected by their child.
It wasn't a child that disrespected you,

439
00:27:17,420 --> 00:27:20,740
it was the people on your
job, but you didn't have,

440
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,910
you couldn't have a voice there.
You had to submit there, you know,

441
00:27:24,910 --> 00:27:27,590
because those were the microaggressions
that were happening at work.

442
00:27:27,690 --> 00:27:29,550
So that was the other
thing that goes there.

443
00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:34,150
And I looked at what trauma responses
were happening to people at work.

444
00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:39,960
So the fighter part of you wasn't gonna
show up at work because you needed that

445
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,320
job. You needed that job. Yeah. And.

446
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,800
You would be given no leeway,
nobody would understand. Right.

447
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Right, right. But sometimes that
fighter part showed up at home.

448
00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:54,480
And then this was the other thing
about the women in the group.

449
00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:59,640
Black women learn very
early on about being strong.

450
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:04,320
And there's a movie, I didn't
like the movie, but the help,

451
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,020
but there's a scene that I
always remember two scenes.

452
00:28:08,450 --> 00:28:12,900
There's one where Viola Davis's
character is talking to the little white

453
00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,580
blonde-haired girl. And she's
going, you kind, you're beautiful.

454
00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:17,660
You're all of that, right?

455
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,060
And then there's another scene where
I think her name is Octavia Spencer,

456
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,020
her the other name is talking to
her daughter and she's talking about

457
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,100
strong and things are gonna be tough and
you gotta be ready. And I'm like, yeah,

458
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,500
that's the stuff that we all grew up with.

459
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,340
And so did the women in that
group. And so when they would cry,

460
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,300
not just about the times when there was
anger and rage, but when they would cry,

461
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,030
we had to make space,
let it out. It's okay,

462
00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:53,930
you're still small to cry. To just cry.

463
00:28:54,270 --> 00:28:56,250
And as they got more used
to us and everything else,

464
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,770
because one of the things that we
would do is do a check-in. So we would,

465
00:28:59,770 --> 00:29:02,090
you know, Hey, so and so, how are you
doing? How was your week? It was like,

466
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:03,303
I'm good.

467
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:07,570
And so the tissue box would be passed
to that person because then it's like,

468
00:29:07,570 --> 00:29:11,490
nah, no, we we know. No, you're not
good. You're saying that and you're not.

469
00:29:11,550 --> 00:29:15,930
And then they started to imitate us, like
what Depa would say, what I would say,

470
00:29:15,950 --> 00:29:19,730
so that they would like helping each
other in that way. And it was just really,

471
00:29:19,730 --> 00:29:23,250
really a, a very good
experience and it was amazing.

472
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:26,210
And years later we're still
in touch with them and,

473
00:29:26,270 --> 00:29:31,050
and they talked about the impact and
how it helped them to see and to become

474
00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:34,930
better parents and present to be
present, the adult part of them,

475
00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:39,050
to be present with their children
because it was just so hard for them.

476
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:42,920
And they didn't even realize all of the
stuff that that was happening to them.

477
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,520
But they recognized their growth.

478
00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:48,240
They also recognize
each other's growth too.

479
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:53,040
The more we understood and
learned about trauma and parts,

480
00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:58,280
we were able to share and integrate
that in our work with these women and

481
00:29:58,830 --> 00:30:02,360
help them to even understand
that that angry part,

482
00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:05,160
that's a part that's just a
part of you. It's a protector.

483
00:30:05,540 --> 00:30:06,920
And it made a difference.

484
00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:12,280
And we're very happy to say
that the children of those
women have done extremely

485
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,113
well.

486
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,000
I was just thinking about like,
um, the seven generations beyond,

487
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:18,133
you know what I mean?

488
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:22,720
And the kind of impact that the two of
you're having and that that group had on

489
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:26,880
one another is remarkable. Then
you went to the, uh, vessels,

490
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,600
VanDerKolk's training. And
what about racism there?

491
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,400
<Laugh>? Do you have more time? <laugh>?

492
00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:39,480
Well, we have to talk about it because
it's continuing to be perpetrated.

493
00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:45,040
And then also the trauma concepts
going back to like race as you

494
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,560
know, racial trauma, the systems, well.

495
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,520
First of all, our trip to Boston
every week for nine months,

496
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:56,120
talk about trauma. That was a
traumatic experience and it,

497
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,640
a lot of it was racial microaggression.

498
00:30:58,810 --> 00:31:00,480
Could you give just a couple of examples?

499
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,640
I think this is an example of the
differences. We have both women of color,

500
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:09,320
but the difference is in my being
black and and Glister being a a Latino,

501
00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:13,000
you wanna tell about all the train?
Yeah. The first ride that we took, I,

502
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,360
you know, was pulling my,

503
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:18,720
my little luggage piece and I noticed
that people weren't moving, you know,

504
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:21,600
and I, I didn't know why and I was
getting really annoyed or whatever.

505
00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:24,960
And so I said something to Deborah
and she was like, oh yeah, they're,

506
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,400
nobody's gonna move for you. And I was
like, wait, what do you, what do you,

507
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,320
why not? You know, I'm coming in
with the thing. And she's like, yeah,

508
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,880
nobody's gonna move for you. So the
second time that we went on the train,

509
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:38,200
the same thing happened and she says,
watch, nobody's gonna move for you again.

510
00:31:38,620 --> 00:31:40,360
And I was like, what are
you talking about? Like,

511
00:31:40,460 --> 00:31:44,440
and I couldn't believe that nobody
moved for me to be able to navigate,

512
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:46,560
you know, like the aisle
there on the train. You.

513
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,360
Had to go around them.
They wouldn't seed space.

514
00:31:50,060 --> 00:31:52,680
Yes. So then she's like,
yeah, we move differently.

515
00:31:53,130 --> 00:31:56,800
White people take up space and it's
okay for them to do that and we have to

516
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,600
accommodate them, but they
won't accommodate us. I'm like,

517
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,800
whatcha talking about my mind? Just up?

518
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,080
Because it never occurred to me. And
it may have happened to me in the past,

519
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,400
but I never saw it. I never
thought about it, never.

520
00:32:09,620 --> 00:32:12,840
And until that moment and then I did it
on purpose and I was like, oh my God.

521
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:15,440
And then I took up space to see.

522
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:17,920
And then you're gonna be
perceived as aggressive.

523
00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:22,360
Exactly. Yeah. Every week there
was a different incident and um,

524
00:32:22,660 --> 00:32:24,520
one week we were in the car,

525
00:32:24,670 --> 00:32:28,960
everybody on that particular part of
the train had their computers out and

526
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,360
Deborah and I were, were working
and we're talking and we're,

527
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:32,760
ja we're laughing and whatever.

528
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:37,640
And we were creating a workshop and
like two stops before hours a band

529
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,400
came over and he was getting out and
he came over and he was like, you know,

530
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,280
I see the two of you working here
and having a really good time. What,

531
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,760
what are you people working
on? Everybody else was working.

532
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:50,640
He didn't go to anybody but he came
to us because of course we're the only

533
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,600
people of color on the train. I was
floored again, like how dare you ask me?

534
00:32:55,750 --> 00:32:59,400
Like, it's not like he went around,
you know? No, it was just us.

535
00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:04,680
He insisted that we tell him what
we were working on and we were

536
00:33:05,030 --> 00:33:09,400
like insisting that we're not telling
you anything that experience in,

537
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:14,040
in Boston. And also it was
a great program. We learned
a lot that it was a lot.

538
00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:15,280
But it,

539
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,240
there was anything that I wish there
could have been more of was the

540
00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:24,400
integrating about race
throughout the program.

541
00:33:25,220 --> 00:33:29,000
And when there was anything
about trauma for, you know,

542
00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:33,800
with the marginalized group it was
more so about, you know, the Holocaust,

543
00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:37,600
which was traumatic, not
taking anything away from,

544
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:42,200
but I just wish that there
was more about immigration,

545
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:44,040
slavery. Yeah,

546
00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:49,040
those are historical and
intergenerational trauma that we're still

547
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,320
experiencing. And for me,

548
00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:55,320
joy Grs book post-traumatic slave
stern dorm helped me so much

549
00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:59,160
in understanding all of
the parenting styles.

550
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,730
It's rooted in protection so much
about our culture and I think so many

551
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:09,050
cultures has to do with oppression and
colonization and those things and they're

552
00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:13,850
about survival. And I thought
about even those women, yeah,

553
00:34:13,940 --> 00:34:17,330
there were times that could've looked
harsh, but they're trying to protect,

554
00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:21,890
they're trying to prepare. They're a
kid for this is what the world is like,

555
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,930
this is what the world is like. And
in fact, one time they came at me,

556
00:34:27,090 --> 00:34:28,530
remember she was like, you know,

557
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:31,770
no I'm not gonna because what
do you want me to do Deborah?

558
00:34:32,130 --> 00:34:33,090
I remember her saying, want me?

559
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:35,930
You want me to teach my boy to
act like a little white boy? No,

560
00:34:36,110 --> 00:34:38,170
that's what she said to me.
And I'm like, oh lemme stop.

561
00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:43,130
Lemme think about this because
he's a black child and his life is

562
00:34:43,130 --> 00:34:44,730
gonna be different when
he walks out there.

563
00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:48,730
It is gonna be different when
he's a teenager. You know,

564
00:34:48,730 --> 00:34:51,810
we had to check ourselves. 'cause there
were times when the women triggered,

565
00:34:52,050 --> 00:34:55,890
I got triggered and being in touch
with what was happening with me.

566
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,130
Like in other words, you took that
you didn't push back and say, no,

567
00:35:00,130 --> 00:35:02,930
that's not what I meant. You were
like, oh you're telling me something.

568
00:35:03,150 --> 00:35:05,650
So that's good modeling
for when that happens.

569
00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:11,130
And then I'm also thinking about something
that we often miss as we're looking

570
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:13,570
and we're working really
hard to expand, you know,

571
00:35:13,590 --> 00:35:17,370
how we see attachment and
human development. You know,

572
00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:22,050
we talk about like this cultural context
umbrella and part of that umbrella

573
00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:24,290
is some of the stuff that
y'all are both talking about,

574
00:35:24,290 --> 00:35:29,290
about protection and these
cultural strengths that we might

575
00:35:29,290 --> 00:35:32,570
miss. But that needs to be incorporated
in how we're seeing someone.

576
00:35:32,570 --> 00:35:36,090
Whether that means that there was a
cultural strength that ends up backfiring

577
00:35:36,090 --> 00:35:36,923
for them or just.

578
00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:41,040
Plain old pride and culture
and stuff like that,

579
00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:42,480
that is part of human development.

580
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,240
And so really incorporating those kinds
of things so that we're seeing a full

581
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:48,073
picture of someone.

582
00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:51,800
Yeah, being more curious about what
their thought process is. You know,

583
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:56,280
that piece about the kid needing to
respect you. Because when I say no,

584
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,320
it's no because it's dangerous.
If I'm telling you, don't go here,

585
00:36:00,370 --> 00:36:04,240
don't do this. It's because it's
dangerous and you need to listen.

586
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:06,600
It's a lot of that,
like Deborah was saying,

587
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,880
protecting their child because they
can't be with their child 24 7.

588
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:11,800
So it's helping them do that.

589
00:36:22,540 --> 00:36:25,880
We are really excited about our
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590
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591
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592
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593
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594
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595
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596
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597
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627
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stories.com/to and glacier. I'm wondering,

628
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:34,830
Deborah's example.

629
00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:38,880
Of black dissociation,
the lens on that is there,

630
00:38:39,230 --> 00:38:42,080
have you noticed anything related
to that in the Latina community?

631
00:38:42,540 --> 00:38:43,373
Is there a parallel.

632
00:38:43,770 --> 00:38:45,640
Other than changing language?

633
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,640
Because I think that that sometimes
happens when they start talking about like

634
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,600
their younger selves and when they start
talking about their grandmothers or any

635
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,960
of their ancestors, there's a a
shift. And also in the Latino culture,

636
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,600
there's a lot of spiritualism too.

637
00:38:58,980 --> 00:39:03,640
So you're gonna get a lot of different
things that happen in terms of how they

638
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,840
practice certain religious and what
happens and, and disassociating that way,

639
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:12,680
or just not being present or just
the whole thing about culture and how

640
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:15,600
women are supposed to be, how
men are supposed to be and,

641
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,520
and just all of these different
things that they're navigating.

642
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:22,440
So sometimes you, well at, at least
for me, what I've seen is because,

643
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,360
'cause I've seen a lot of more bilingual
women who have been born and raised

644
00:39:26,430 --> 00:39:29,200
here, but when I see
the immigrant families,

645
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,000
there's a lot of other stuff that
happens for them. One of the things, Sue,

646
00:39:34,030 --> 00:39:38,640
that I think I've struggled with when
it comes to the attachment there is

647
00:39:38,990 --> 00:39:42,800
it's usually about like as if there's
only one caregiver, maybe two,

648
00:39:43,620 --> 00:39:44,760
we may have multiple,

649
00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:49,980
there probably are multiple
caregivers in the home,

650
00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:52,620
<laugh>, you know, and it's like,

651
00:39:53,220 --> 00:39:57,100
I could see how that could become
pathologized because each one may have a

652
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,900
little bit different little, you know,
twist. They may do, that's different,

653
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,860
but they all are looking out and trying
to do what's best for their child.

654
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,100
And there is a message, yes,

655
00:40:10,490 --> 00:40:13,420
like some people will get the message,
it can be anything you wanna be,

656
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,910
but somehow in there there's a little
bit of a, but then it's so, so,

657
00:40:18,010 --> 00:40:20,910
so don't forget who you are kind of thing.

658
00:40:21,570 --> 00:40:25,870
But there's the whole piece about
caregivers and our resources and you

659
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:31,030
can't talk about attachment and
connecting without including

660
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:36,230
ancestors. But people who were
before us, we don't think,

661
00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:38,270
just in terms of who's here,

662
00:40:39,290 --> 00:40:41,690
you have to be open to that.

663
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:45,770
And maybe that's part of what we are
talking about in the first segment.

664
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:50,330
Deconstructing that, letting
that go and be open to, okay,

665
00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:54,970
maybe that's not what I do for
people who don't look like me.

666
00:40:55,070 --> 00:40:57,290
Now I just talking about this
from a poor white therapist.

667
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,250
That part about the ancestors is real
important for me. I get a lot about,

668
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,450
well what church you go to? And
we're like, okay, I'm not, you know,

669
00:41:05,470 --> 00:41:06,810
I'm not really part of the church.

670
00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:11,850
I grew up in a church and I had to figure
out how do I answer that and not throw

671
00:41:11,850 --> 00:41:15,450
it back at them with the question, well
what does that question mean to you? No,

672
00:41:15,450 --> 00:41:16,730
they don't wanna hear that nonsense.

673
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,450
It's like I had to think about
because it said, you know,

674
00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:23,170
I'm in search and I missed
part. I grew up in the church,

675
00:41:23,970 --> 00:41:27,850
I missed some aspects of the church,
but I'm going through my own journey,

676
00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:31,110
my own search. Oh, okay, yeah.

677
00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:32,270
Authenticity. Yes.

678
00:41:32,810 --> 00:41:33,500
Yes.

679
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:37,320
And you're not interpreting the question
as a resistance or something like that.

680
00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:39,280
It is like, okay, this
is a bid for connection.

681
00:41:39,350 --> 00:41:42,680
It's a bid for connection. That's
what I meant about wanting in their,

682
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:47,160
in our own way, who are you? I know
you are the therapist, but who are you?

683
00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:51,560
And that's gonna let me know if I can
trust you if this is a safe place.

684
00:41:52,020 --> 00:41:55,520
And the other thing too for people of
color or, or Latinas in particular,

685
00:41:55,870 --> 00:42:00,040
Latinos at next, is the piece
about balancing the cultures,

686
00:42:00,270 --> 00:42:01,720
balancing the culture and who,

687
00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:04,520
who you are in front of your
parents and who you are, you know,

688
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,200
in the community.

689
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,640
And just balancing who they are
and what's going on with them.

690
00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:10,280
You know,

691
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,160
they may respond a certain way in front
of their family as to certain things,

692
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:17,320
but then there's this other piece that
their family may not even know about

693
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:17,980
them.

694
00:42:17,980 --> 00:42:22,400
So there's all of these like cultural
expectations and pressures too.

695
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,960
Multiple identities. And you know,

696
00:42:25,020 --> 00:42:29,360
I'm just a few hours from
the border where kids

697
00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:34,200
are being detained and separated.
It is trauma on top of trauma.

698
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:35,480
On top of trauma, right.

699
00:42:36,190 --> 00:42:36,770
Yeah.

700
00:42:36,770 --> 00:42:41,480
We're big fans of Janina Fisher and had
done some work with Janina and love her

701
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,440
part work and Janina had
this chart about how trauma

702
00:42:46,450 --> 00:42:51,280
shows up as symptoms and
I was very proud of how we

703
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,880
took that chart. And
we thought about, yes,

704
00:42:54,740 --> 00:42:59,360
but so does racial trauma
show up as symptoms as well?

705
00:42:59,830 --> 00:43:03,810
Like the fear of being weak
racially hypervigilant,

706
00:43:04,310 --> 00:43:07,770
racial trauma shows up
as symptoms as well.

707
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:12,330
And the rethinking of
what I should have said,

708
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:13,570
what I should have done.

709
00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:18,770
I just shared with er and I had never
told my husband about this that happened

710
00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:22,450
to me years ago. My younger
brother had passed away,

711
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:23,810
but before he passed away,

712
00:43:23,810 --> 00:43:28,490
he was in the hospital and he had been
on dialysis for a number of years and

713
00:43:28,810 --> 00:43:32,850
I had gone to see him and I
was by myself and he was tired,

714
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:34,130
he didn't wanna do it anymore.

715
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,850
They were giving him dialysis in his
hospital room and he ripped everything out

716
00:43:38,910 --> 00:43:42,770
and the blood was shooting up like a
guy. And he was telling me, get out,

717
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:46,250
get out. And I understand it
all now. They made me leave,

718
00:43:46,430 --> 00:43:48,010
but when I got on the elevator,

719
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:53,210
the white doctor and a white nurse got
on the elevator and the white doctor

720
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,930
literally took off part of my care like
that and said, what if this, you know,

721
00:43:58,010 --> 00:43:59,130
I feel like I'm gonna cry.

722
00:43:59,710 --> 00:44:04,290
And they started laughing and they were
only on the elevator like for one or two

723
00:44:04,290 --> 00:44:05,330
floors and it got off.

724
00:44:06,170 --> 00:44:10,270
And I think I realized
that in that moment I froze

725
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:16,650
because I just had a traumatic
moment in that hospital room with my

726
00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:17,930
brother, with my younger brother.

727
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:23,080
And then to get on the elevator
and the fact that he did that

728
00:44:23,740 --> 00:44:25,320
and all these years later,

729
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,970
once I had told er about it because
something else happened that made me think

730
00:44:29,970 --> 00:44:33,880
about it and remember it. And then
when I told my husband about it,

731
00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:39,300
I couldn't stop thinking about what I
should have done, what I should have said,

732
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,510
why I let him get away with that.
And I had to work through, yeah,

733
00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:49,470
but do wait for one traumatic
situation and that hospital and with

734
00:44:49,470 --> 00:44:54,160
my brother to that. And then it
became what brings him the right,

735
00:44:54,750 --> 00:44:59,640
what made him think he had a right
to just touch my hair and go,

736
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,400
what is that, what is
this? Like that to me.

737
00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:06,480
And that happens a lot I think with
people when we go through racial

738
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:09,560
microaggressions or racist things,

739
00:45:10,020 --> 00:45:14,000
it plays in your head over
and over because it's like,

740
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:18,440
oh what I should have said. All of
those things, you know? Yeah. And it,

741
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,680
and it's funny 'cause you, when you
were talking about that, Deborah,

742
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,120
I was thinking about when we
were pulled over by the police,

743
00:45:23,980 --> 00:45:28,790
we were driving from a phenomenal
conference and we were talking

744
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:32,230
about it in the car and we were getting
towards Deborah's exit to her house and

745
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:34,150
Deborah was driving
and as she was talking,

746
00:45:34,210 --> 00:45:37,550
she was moving her hand and she
had her sunglasses in her hand.

747
00:45:38,130 --> 00:45:41,030
So she's talking and she says, you know,
there's some state trooper behind us.

748
00:45:41,570 --> 00:45:46,070
And I said, oh, okay. She's like, I
think he's following us. And I was like,

749
00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:48,230
really? He's probably
just gonna get off. No,

750
00:45:48,250 --> 00:45:51,790
he got off right behind
us and pulled us over.

751
00:45:52,250 --> 00:45:56,350
Now this is the summer where a lot of
black men and children had been killed,

752
00:45:56,350 --> 00:45:56,610
right?

753
00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:01,470
And so I'm looking at the side mirror
and he's got his hand on his gun

754
00:46:02,210 --> 00:46:06,490
and my heart started racing and
all I could remember was, you know,

755
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:10,930
put your hand on the dashboard. And
that's what I did. And I said, Debra,

756
00:46:10,930 --> 00:46:13,810
put your hand on the dashboard.
But Debra was like, wait,

757
00:46:13,830 --> 00:46:16,130
why are we getting pulled
over? And she didn't do that.

758
00:46:16,190 --> 00:46:20,130
And so here he comes and I'm like, Debra,
put your Debra. You know, like I was,

759
00:46:20,330 --> 00:46:23,130
I was really nervous because I
was seeing one thing on one side.

760
00:46:23,130 --> 00:46:25,010
I didn't say it that lic
you didn't say it that lic.

761
00:46:25,450 --> 00:46:29,130
I was de he on the glass board's. Like,
she's like, but I don't have any what,

762
00:46:29,130 --> 00:46:30,770
what? We didn't do anything. I
don't have what, what, you know,

763
00:46:30,770 --> 00:46:32,530
what are we doing? And then of course,

764
00:46:32,570 --> 00:46:34,250
I was so nervous I couldn't do the window.

765
00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,970
Debra did the window and then he was
like, license registration insurance.

766
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:42,730
And we're like, but what happened?
License registration and insurance.

767
00:46:43,580 --> 00:46:47,120
And I can't tell you
my heart was pounding.

768
00:46:47,540 --> 00:46:51,000
He said that I was on
my phone and I said, no,

769
00:46:51,260 --> 00:46:55,320
my phone is in the backseat with
my purse. It's my sunglasses.

770
00:46:56,020 --> 00:46:58,240
But what was so scary about that,

771
00:46:58,390 --> 00:47:01,700
it's how quickly it could have escalated,

772
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,420
how quickly he thought my phone was
something else and he kept his hand on his

773
00:47:06,420 --> 00:47:07,460
gun the entire time,

774
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,180
but he didn't tell us anything
until he went and checked her car,

775
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:14,500
until he checked my car and then he
followed us to where we were supposed to

776
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:17,460
turn. It was so unbelievable. And,

777
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,140
and we just kept saying seconds,
just seconds. What can happen?

778
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,220
You know, we have a journey and,

779
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:27,340
and our journey has brought
us to this place where we are,

780
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:31,520
where we need to talk about these things.
We need to write about these things.

781
00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:32,800
And we're going to,

782
00:47:33,090 --> 00:47:37,520
we're in the process of doing that
because there's just so much that is out

783
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,880
there and trying to integrate all of the
information so that we could be helpful

784
00:47:41,940 --> 00:47:42,480
to our clients,

785
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,720
but be helpful to our colleagues so that
we can do that in the period of time

786
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:51,160
that we have left in this world.
There's so many moving pieces,

787
00:47:51,460 --> 00:47:55,120
you know, there's so many things that
happened to us. And even on the train,

788
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:57,240
the last train staff from Boston,

789
00:47:57,820 --> 00:48:01,000
we upgraded to first class and um,

790
00:48:01,230 --> 00:48:03,040
this man kept checking our tickets.

791
00:48:03,340 --> 00:48:05,680
He kept checking the tickets and
we were like, what's going on?

792
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,120
He's not checking anybody else, but
nobody else in first class looked like us.

793
00:48:09,340 --> 00:48:12,960
And he was an African American male,
like seventies, eighties, whenever.

794
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:17,240
And so when we got off, he
said, no, I'm, I'm really sorry,

795
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,520
I I I just had to make sure checking
your ticket. And we're like, no,

796
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,800
that's okay. We know that you
were doing your job. He's like,

797
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,560
I don't know what you girls do, but I
wanna just tell you that I'm proud of you.

798
00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:32,120
I'm proud of you for sitting up there
because it's not often that people like

799
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,520
us sit up here and I just wanna
thank you for what you do.

800
00:48:37,470 --> 00:48:40,420
And every time we tell that
story, we get emotional because,

801
00:48:41,090 --> 00:48:45,910
because it was like we were
seen and we heard him and

802
00:48:45,930 --> 00:48:50,870
we thanked him for that because it
was such a difficult journey back

803
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:53,630
and forth to Boston. Not just him,

804
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,630
there was another African American
conductor and he would talk to us.

805
00:48:58,330 --> 00:49:00,790
And so when this elderly conducted,

806
00:49:00,930 --> 00:49:05,350
got off the train to make sure he said
something to us, he probably knew,

807
00:49:05,690 --> 00:49:09,990
we knew he of checking us
over and over and over again.

808
00:49:11,210 --> 00:49:14,310
And he wasn't checking because he
thought we didn't belong there.

809
00:49:14,330 --> 00:49:18,710
He was texting because he knew all
of those white men that were in that

810
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,910
particular car while watching
him. And that's why he did it.

811
00:49:24,370 --> 00:49:27,590
It was so powerful because of
everything that we had gone through.

812
00:49:27,730 --> 00:49:31,750
And then at the very end to
have somebody just recognize it,

813
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:32,990
it made such a difference.

814
00:49:33,330 --> 00:49:37,990
And it reminded me of the women of color
group where they said that we made such

815
00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:41,030
a difference, difference
to them. And realizing how,

816
00:49:41,310 --> 00:49:42,430
I think you had said it to me,

817
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:47,450
that this area about how we held
them talking about connected and

818
00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:52,490
attachment, I think we did that for
them. What they didn't have before,

819
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,560
what they didn't have before and we
lost of being connected and valued

820
00:49:58,190 --> 00:50:02,000
feeling that they were valued. And
we kept saying to them recently,

821
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,720
I wish I knew about sensory
motorcycle therapy back then.

822
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:06,880
I wish we knew about this
and that or whatever.

823
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,440
So that we could have implemented that
in the group and gotten and they're like,

824
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:12,960
no, we, you guys gave us everything.

825
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:14,480
Absolutely. And you know,

826
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:19,320
we're talking specifically racial trauma
and the last three examples that you

827
00:50:19,340 --> 00:50:22,880
all just gave, first of all,
thank you so much for sharing.

828
00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:27,920
So painful. You know, we have
to feel this, this is the truth,

829
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:33,280
but every single one that
you just said by itself

830
00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:38,200
is enough. It's too much. This is
just, you're just rip. You know,

831
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,040
they're just there and there
and there, you know, there's,

832
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:42,480
and there's so many that
you're not saying and wow.

833
00:50:42,660 --> 00:50:44,720
And thank you for sharing these things.

834
00:50:45,390 --> 00:50:50,360
Like that whole questioning yourself
part just makes me so angry.

835
00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:52,840
But I totally get it. It's like,
did that happen? What should I,

836
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:55,280
did that even happen? Did it mean,
uh, uh, uh, you know what I mean?

837
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,240
That it's the invisible nature of it,

838
00:50:57,410 --> 00:51:01,320
which is part of your work and that
you're wanting to get this message out.

839
00:51:01,900 --> 00:51:05,440
But you mentioned Glyc, the
writing and some groups.

840
00:51:05,620 --> 00:51:08,560
So can y'all speak to that a little bit
about folks that are interested and want

841
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:09,390
more?

842
00:51:09,390 --> 00:51:12,920
Well we definitely wanna write about this
group of women that we've worked with.

843
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:14,560
So we're in the process of doing that.

844
00:51:14,580 --> 00:51:19,280
But then we'd like to begin a group for
therapists of color, which we mentioned,

845
00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:22,040
you know, to just cut lead with a
consultation group for therapists,

846
00:51:22,290 --> 00:51:25,760
therapists of color and white ally,
you know, like we were talking about.

847
00:51:26,180 --> 00:51:27,200
Go ahead and say it again though,

848
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,000
in case somebody didn't
hear that first episode.

849
00:51:29,380 --> 00:51:34,080
We were saying about having a group
of mixed therapists and the white ally

850
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,520
consultation group, the iPOC and
white ally consultation group,

851
00:51:37,610 --> 00:51:41,480
where the white allies should be open to
reflect, to share and to be challenged.

852
00:51:41,740 --> 00:51:44,720
And yeah, to feel unsafe and
to deal with it. <laugh>, you.

853
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:46,600
Know, you can say that, right? <laugh>, I.

854
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,800
Can say that. You can say that.
I'm serious. <laugh>, right?

855
00:51:49,380 --> 00:51:52,440
You're gonna feel unsafe. They, because
you just gotta deal with it. Yeah.

856
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,680
Just trust, just trust the process
of learning and growing and,

857
00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:57,400
and that racial identity piece.

858
00:51:57,430 --> 00:52:00,520
There's different steps and
different things for people of color,

859
00:52:00,580 --> 00:52:01,230
for white people.

860
00:52:01,230 --> 00:52:05,240
Like those are the training things that
people really should kind of look for

861
00:52:05,380 --> 00:52:09,120
and do so that they can grow
with themselves, you know,

862
00:52:09,180 --> 00:52:11,440
so that they can be present
just even for themselves.

863
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:14,360
Because even like we've talked about
when even there's two white women in the

864
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:18,200
room, priest is still there, culture is
still there, you know, classes is there,

865
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:22,160
you know, all of these factors are there
and they're present and it's important.

866
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:27,560
Even when my practice had
more white clients as part of

867
00:52:27,740 --> 00:52:30,840
my intake, I've asked
them, how do you identify?

868
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:35,200
And white people can never answer that
question. I would get, I'm American, I'm,

869
00:52:35,260 --> 00:52:38,840
I'm an, uh, it's like, but a person
of color they could tell you.

870
00:52:39,540 --> 00:52:41,080
And so I would just, okay,

871
00:52:41,220 --> 00:52:45,960
how do you identify racially
and the discomfort to say

872
00:52:46,820 --> 00:52:51,320
I'm white. Okay, and then I'm this and
I'm that. I'm, I'm a kind of that, okay,

873
00:52:51,580 --> 00:52:56,440
but can we just acknowledge that
race is present? They're too white.

874
00:52:56,990 --> 00:53:00,960
Yeah, white people don't know that
we are a race <laugh>, like right,

875
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,360
that it's just the norm. No, it's in
the room. Even among two white people.

876
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:07,440
It's a shared disassociation.

877
00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:10,960
So I just wanted to mention two
other things through Therapy Wisdom.

878
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,920
Deborah and I did a
training with Janina Fisher.

879
00:53:14,340 --> 00:53:17,000
If anyone is interested in that,
we, we could sit and do the link.

880
00:53:17,380 --> 00:53:19,280
And also Pessi uk,

881
00:53:19,420 --> 00:53:23,560
we also did like part of
their certification program
there too. So you know,

882
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,160
we've done these kind
of things also online.

883
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:28,920
So if people are interested
in that, that'll be great.

884
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:31,760
The other thing too is I
wanted to just also promote,

885
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,760
because we love her so much is Janina
Fisher's program assist also through

886
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:37,593
Therapy Wisdom,

887
00:53:37,810 --> 00:53:42,400
which I think is phenomenal
for people who are know trauma,

888
00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:44,200
who know parts work.

889
00:53:44,660 --> 00:53:49,480
And she really helps you put all of
those things together also with sensory

890
00:53:49,530 --> 00:53:50,300
motor.

891
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:54,680
And it's just a nice package to be
able to just kind of like utilize,

892
00:53:55,130 --> 00:53:59,560
she's very grounded and
she makes it very easy to

893
00:53:59,690 --> 00:54:04,520
understand about holding and
being present for the client and

894
00:54:04,540 --> 00:54:06,720
all parts of that client
is really important.

895
00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:09,640
The training that we did for SS E U K,

896
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:12,280
we did it last year and it's
happening again this year.

897
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,840
Certificate program on complex
P T S D and dissociation.

898
00:54:17,380 --> 00:54:21,440
And the thing that was so interesting
about that is that it was global.

899
00:54:21,620 --> 00:54:26,120
It was being offered not just
in the US and what's amazing,

900
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:31,240
we did piece about race and racial
trauma and the anti-blackness

901
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,350
isn't just a US problem. Okay.
I'll put it that way. <laugh>. So.

902
00:54:36,610 --> 00:54:41,430
You mentioned Pesi and it's P E
SS I and that there was something

903
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:43,390
coming up that you're
gonna do. So when is that?

904
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:46,790
What is it? You call your notes,
sir. People can see notes. Yes,

905
00:54:47,780 --> 00:54:51,350
there's a link and the
training start April 6th,

906
00:54:51,870 --> 00:54:54,310
I think it goes for like
almost nine months. It's a,

907
00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:58,750
it's a long training and they have
all the top people. Yeah, everybody.

908
00:54:58,970 --> 00:55:01,630
Oh yeah, look at that. We're a
part of it too. We're part of the,

909
00:55:01,630 --> 00:55:04,990
everybody in that one <laugh> we've
never met all of them, but <laugh>.

910
00:55:05,090 --> 00:55:07,790
That's a different kind of belonging,
right? Yeah. It's like <laugh>.

911
00:55:08,370 --> 00:55:09,203
That's wonderful.

912
00:55:09,330 --> 00:55:12,430
But it's one of those if recorded.
So if you can't be there,

913
00:55:12,450 --> 00:55:14,830
you can't still watch it. Take the test,

914
00:55:14,930 --> 00:55:19,470
get your CEUs because it's recorded
and they keep the recordings up.

915
00:55:19,770 --> 00:55:24,670
If you join later, it's okay because you
still have to watch it take the exam.

916
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:28,030
The thing that you won't be
part of is the live q and a.

917
00:55:28,450 --> 00:55:30,190
All of the presenters present,

918
00:55:30,450 --> 00:55:33,910
and then there's a live q and
a about what they presented.

919
00:55:34,370 --> 00:55:38,310
So if you're not online at that
moment when that's taking place,

920
00:55:38,820 --> 00:55:41,270
then you just will be part
of that. You'll hear it.

921
00:55:41,890 --> 00:55:46,270
And then the therapy wisdom that we
did with Janina was a lot around.

922
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,790
These are incredible resources and
we're gonna have even more resources for

923
00:55:49,790 --> 00:55:53,510
reading PDFs, all kinds of
things on our show notes.

924
00:55:54,090 --> 00:55:56,590
And you can find
those@therapistsandsensor.com.

925
00:55:56,730 --> 00:56:00,950
And then there's a search function in
case you're listening to this much later.

926
00:56:01,210 --> 00:56:04,990
And if you'll just even put race, racial
trauma, anything like that in search,

927
00:56:05,390 --> 00:56:07,470
actually anything you're interested
in. But to find these show notes,

928
00:56:07,490 --> 00:56:10,190
that's how you would
look for those. And if,

929
00:56:10,330 --> 00:56:14,190
if somebody is listening now and they're
interested in contacting you directly,

930
00:56:14,370 --> 00:56:16,110
is that welcome? How
would somebody do that?

931
00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:20,990
I can give them my email address.
It's D as in Deborah Chapman,

932
00:56:21,350 --> 00:56:25,320
c h a t m a n, Finley, f i n l e y,

933
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:30,200
all one word. D chapmanFinley@mac.com.

934
00:56:30,380 --> 00:56:32,360
And Glister, would you like to
share something like that or.

935
00:56:32,670 --> 00:56:35,560
Well, my email address is g Perez,

936
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,960
p e r e z lcss w@gmail.com.

937
00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:41,720
And then Debra and I both,

938
00:56:41,740 --> 00:56:46,000
if anyone is interested
in the consultation groups
that we talked about also we

939
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,200
didn't mention, but we were, we were
also interested in working with Bipo men,

940
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:52,200
having a Bipo men support group,

941
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:55,440
just to kind of like for us to
be able to have that experience,

942
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:56,520
kind of see what the women went through.

943
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,960
But we're also seeing stuff that's going
on with a lot of the men that we're

944
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:03,320
working with. Our email
address there is Bipo,

945
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:07,430
B I P O C I N G,

946
00:57:07,820 --> 00:57:10,630
therapist with an S gmail.com.

947
00:57:11,250 --> 00:57:15,550
You all have been so generous to share
your wisdom and your perspective and your

948
00:57:15,620 --> 00:57:18,590
pain. I cannot thank you enough. Thank.

949
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:23,550
You for inviting us. Yes. And
making this so easy. Yeah, so easy.

950
00:57:23,690 --> 00:57:24,523
We could talk forever.

951
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:27,950
'cause Deborah and I like to talk and
can I share something with you, Sue?

952
00:57:28,250 --> 00:57:32,830
You said something and it was so
authentic to me and you settled to me.

953
00:57:33,170 --> 00:57:34,003
Listen,

954
00:57:34,050 --> 00:57:39,030
if I say something or do something
that it's comfortable, that's a racial,

955
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:43,550
like call me out. You basically let
me know. I wanna know in the moment.

956
00:57:44,210 --> 00:57:47,230
And I was like, oh. And when you said it,

957
00:57:47,530 --> 00:57:49,910
if you could have saw the little
thing over my head, it would've said,

958
00:57:50,050 --> 00:57:53,510
oh my gosh, she's for real. So
anyway, <laugh>. But, but I was,

959
00:57:53,590 --> 00:57:57,630
I was on that call, I was on that call
and what I heard was, oh, she's safe.

960
00:57:58,430 --> 00:58:00,080
Okay, <laugh>, that's what I heard.

961
00:58:00,570 --> 00:58:00,920
Y'all,

962
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,560
this is probably the nicest thing anyone
has ever said to me as far as like as,

963
00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:05,720
as far as how I'm taking it,

964
00:58:05,780 --> 00:58:08,840
as far as the most meaningful
thing that is so incredibly,

965
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:10,880
it's funny that you say
it because I almost,

966
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:15,960
when we ended before and when I ended
now, I almost again invited like,

967
00:58:16,540 --> 00:58:19,960
how did we do? Because if we're
saying this happens everywhere,

968
00:58:20,590 --> 00:58:25,000
it's almost like, can we find it
here? Or, or this example of like,

969
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,120
something that did go well.

970
00:58:26,740 --> 00:58:28,720
So I'm glad that you brought
that back up because it's,

971
00:58:28,820 --> 00:58:33,680
it is up to us to really invite
it because it has been so shut

972
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,200
down and, and not believed.

973
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:40,200
So I'm inspired by both of you around
the invitation of like, we don't know,

974
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,200
we're in the process. We're, I
have a white body. It's been a,

975
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,800
it's a very different
experience, you know,

976
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,520
even sitting and sharing with me
really, really, really meaningful.

977
00:58:50,260 --> 00:58:54,760
So I think this is a good launching
pad for everybody around inspiring

978
00:58:54,930 --> 00:58:59,920
folks to keep doing the work, their
own identity work, and then to expand.

979
00:59:00,060 --> 00:59:03,200
And we at Therapist Uncensored
are committed to this.

980
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,880
We're committed to continuing to
expand the idea of attachment and human

981
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:08,120
development and what it looks like,

982
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:12,720
and including culture and
class and context and race

983
00:59:13,060 --> 00:59:17,120
and gender and all the things.
So thank you for listening.

984
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,000
If you're still listening, it means
that you hopefully found some value.

985
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:24,520
We encourage you to help us get the word
out about these perspectives and share

986
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,280
this episode with anybody that
you think could be benefited,

987
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,720
including your class. Let's say
you're in a university class, right?

988
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:35,040
We wanna get the word out. And
then also, if we do bring value,

989
00:59:35,380 --> 00:59:40,280
it helps us a lot to rate and review
the show. It helps other people find it.

990
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:41,840
And wherever you get your podcasts,

991
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,880
there's usually a little place
where you can send us a little note.

992
00:59:45,290 --> 00:59:48,160
We're always interested in
hearing from you. Um, okay.

993
00:59:48,850 --> 00:59:51,960
Thank you again and we'll
see you around the bend.

994
00:59:52,540 --> 00:59:56,160
Sue and I are dedicated to spreading
security one conversation at a time.

995
00:59:56,700 --> 01:00:00,360
And in our effort to do this, we
wanna do it free and far and wide.

996
01:00:01,060 --> 01:00:05,880
So we are relying on our neuro
nerd Patreons and super cast

997
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,160
members and our sponsor partners.
They really make a difference for us.

998
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:13,440
So in this effort, we have
partnered with Athletic Greens.

999
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:18,320
It's now known as a G one 'cause
both Sue and I actually use it every

1000
01:00:18,340 --> 01:00:22,120
day. So focusing on my physical
health is extremely important for me,

1001
01:00:22,420 --> 01:00:24,520
as we all know what goes on in our gut.

1002
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:29,040
And our body impacts us on so many
levels from our mood to our health.

1003
01:00:29,580 --> 01:00:33,480
And with one scoop of Ag one,
I get 75 high quality vitamins.

1004
01:00:33,610 --> 01:00:36,040
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1005
01:00:36,330 --> 01:00:40,720
adaptogens and Adaptogens are plant-based
products like herbs and mushrooms

1006
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:43,240
that help your body regulate stress.

1007
01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:46,640
So a G one really helps
support your immune system.

1008
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:51,880
And I can really feel in myself
that it boosts my energy and my

1009
01:00:52,410 --> 01:00:53,243
focus.

1010
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:57,400
So we are happy that Ag One has partnered
with us and we really encourage you to

1011
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,040
check it out. Go to athletic
greens.com/therapist uncensored.

1012
01:01:01,420 --> 01:01:04,640
So be sure to use that link
because for our listeners,

1013
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:09,240
they will give you a a free year
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1014
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1015
01:01:12,940 --> 01:01:17,400
So that's Athletic
greens.com/therapist uncensored.

1016
01:01:24,190 --> 01:01:24,800
Therapist.

1017
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,080
Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

1018
01:01:27,150 --> 01:01:29,520
This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.