Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife
news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your
host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this edition
of the show, I'm welcoming back my good friend Ben Belkin of Jack Wolf Knives
to talk about the company's JW Collab line of knives and
other brand expansions. Ben made his mark in the knife world by
producing his own take on classic slip joint
pocket knives. Using modern materials and
superlative manufacturing processes. With
excellent designs, builds and business sense, Ben
achieved widespread success with Jack Wolf Knives. Since then,
he's expanded the brand's offerings to accommodate most every knife
collector and user out there. We'll dig into the philosophy behind
Jack Wolf Knives and JW Collab, but first, be sure to like,
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battlebox As we record
this in October 2025. You are just home
fresh from Blade Show West 2025. How
did that go? It went very smooth. It's a nice show.
It's not the hectic chaos of Atlanta.
And so it's the type of show where you get quality time with folks,
customers, brand owners, influencers.
So I really look forward to it. I like Salt Lake,
you know, it's a nice time of year. There's so yeah, I really
enjoyed it. It happened real fast, man. I mean, we flew in on a
Thursday show, was Friday, Saturday on a plane on
Sunday and felt like a blink From your
very first year at Blade show. At least in Atlanta. I
think it was 2022, maybe 2021.
I mean I've seen your, your
presentation go from a table to a giant booth,
like a very comprehensive booth. What's the setup like? I've always wanted to ask
you that. Yeah. So I've collected a
few different setups at this point because of the evolution.
So of course I started at an eight foot table. The tablecloth and
a banner made the switch, I
think probably the following blade show
to a ten foot booth. And so when you upgrade to the ten
foot booth, you need to, you're starting from scratch. You're,
you have a ten foot space instead of an eight foot table.
And you have to decide how you want to use your 10 foot space. And
I like to get corner booths. So I have frontage on two
sides, which actually means I end up buying,
renting three tables and buying three tablecloths
because yet 10ft of coverage in the
front, you need eight foot table and you need like the side of a two
foot table next to it, if that makes sense. Anyway, so it's
an investment. You're investing in something bigger behind you. So
we have cool artwork, banner, and we've got three tables. I learned
trial and error that better when you're
standing and people are standing in front of you to have a,
I guess It's a 42 inch table as opposed to a 36 inch table.
You know, one's bar height, one's dining table height,
it's just more natural. So anybody who's listening to this, thinking about ever getting
a booth at Blade show, plan your tablecloths
around color tables. It's worth it.
And then at some point as we started to get more models, and my
strategy used to be put everything that I've ever made, like
one of everything, at least of all my models on the table. Well, that
catalog was growing and the 10 foot booth was getting
crowded. So we made the decision to upgrade to a 20 foot
space. And that meant a new
20 foot banner, a 16 foot tablecloth,
still a three tablecloth. Three tablecloth arrangement, but
now there's four tables. But man,
the elbow room that you have between
the difference between a 10 foot and 20 foot space is like night and day.
A 10 foot space. You got two, two dudes in there
and like that's, that's enough. You know, you can't, you don't really have room for
a third person in a 10 foot booth. But when you get to 20 foot
booth, you can comfortably have three people back there and even
four. And then at the bigger
shows, what you see is folks
like to kind of hang out at your table, you know, like, and then you
get a critical mass of people and people begets people.
So when you have that 20 foot booth,
you end up with like a crew hanging out, which I really like
that because you go there to
spend time with people. And so to have a place where people can feel
comfortable and not feel like they're being, you know, scooted. Yeah,
that's the, that's one of the advantages of the 20 foot table. Of course, having
more out is, is an advantage, but there's those,
like, unexpected advantages. It's funny that you
say people beget people, because this is something my wife and I noticed
years ago when we were living in New York City. And then we,
we kind of quip about this and joke about it. To this day.
We'll be somewhere and we'll, we'll find something interesting, go up to it, no.
One will be around. And by the time we leave, there are throngs of
people. And we're always like, see that? We're rainmakers. We're rainmakers.
But really the concept is people
observe other people observing something and they want to see, well, what are they looking
at? You know, what, what's, what's such a big deal over there? And really that,
that does draw people in. I can, I can totally see how a 20 foot
table would do that. Yeah. You know, people, they can get their
elbows out, they, they lean on the counter and then someone
comes up to talk to them because they know them. And before long
you're like a bar. You know, you've got all this bar space for
people to mosey on up and get comfortable. And they got, there's knives out
so they can play with the knives. Pretty cool. Do you think,
have you seen any correlation with sales? Like people not feeling rushed to
leave? Does that lead to sales? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
What happens, you know, and, and to answer your first question,
in Salt Lake, we use the ten foot table. I think it's more. Or the
ten foot booth. I think it's more appropriate for that show for me
to not have the 20 foot booth. Like now I can pick
and choose where I do what. Atlanta and Texas, we do 20s,
Salt Lake, we do 10. And then some of the smaller regional
shows, I just bring a tablecloth and just use a table. Now, to
answer your question about the sales, one thing you will
observe as not only a spectator, but someone
behind the table is when the show gets busy and you're in the eight
foot tables, there are people lined up side to side and they're kind
of working down the table. And how many people can comfortably
stand in front of an eight foot table? Like four, you know,
realistically, and no One wants to hog the table.
Right. Like everybody. Most people are courteous of other people's
needs to a degree. So if you're talking to me at the table
and we're just enjoying a conversation, but you sense the next
guy, you're like, I need to wrap this up. Like, you know, I'm
hogging. Yep, yep. And that happens at the eight
foot tables. So when you get the booth,
there's more room for people to stay because now there's
space on either side for another person to stay. So you're
four people to fill up a eight foot table. Now you've got,
you've got 20ft of frontage. So let's just say you've got,
you know, 10. 10 people, something like that, that can
comfortably, like fill your frontage.
And when people aren't pressured to move,
they're checking out what you got. Right.
And of course, there's the. I don't know if
prestige the right word. Like people perceive the
boobs as bigger businesses. You
know, take that for what it's worth. I don't think anybody would dispute that.
Not to say there aren't some major heavy hitters who have tables
and some really small companies that have booze. Like, it's not a
rule, but it's a perception thing. And I think there's
certainly some people who come to the shows who are like, I'm just skipping the
tables, like, I'm just gonna go straight to the booths, you know,
because they just perceive that's like where the action is.
Yes, yes. Where it depends on what kind of knife guy you are.
Like, if you're a knife guy who's interested in what's up and coming in the
new makers, like, you're excited for the tables, you know, that's where the new guys
are. But if you're more casual, you're like,
okay, I see the signs back there. Those are the big brands. Like, I'm
not interested in everybody here. I just kind of want the mainstream
stuff. Those people are going to go to the back into the booth.
Do you experience or have you experienced much theft?
The only thing I've ever had taken off my tables. Let's see.
I can't even. I'd have to think of how many shows I've done. I've done
every blade show since 2021. So 1, 2,
3, 4, 5. So that's 15 blade shows.
And I've done, I used to do the gathering. I've done
the California Custom Night show twice a year for the last few years. I've probably
done 25 to 30 shows. I've only had one thing get taken
off my table and someone took one of my Jax ninja
stars off my table. I don't remember what show was
anymore, you know. So, yeah, it's super disappointing.
You know, fortunately that's not someone swiping
six knives in one scoop or something. And I, and
other people have experienced more theft,
but you know, I think there's not much you can do about it. When the
show's at full tilt, you can't keep an eye on everybody. You're looking people in
the eye when you're talking to them. So therefore you're not looking at people's
hands. Right? Yeah. And, and you know,
outside of that, before the show, after the show, like maybe don't leave all your
stuff out and create a target of opportunity. Like, I think
owners have to be smart about that. But all in all,
it's a community of trustworthy people, I think.
Yeah, that's, that's always been my impression. I know every year there's like
swift footed rumor will run through the place, oh so and so had a knife
stolen. It's all points bulletin to find the thief.
But that's like I said, rumor and
rare. So I was just curious because your knives are pocketable. You know,
your knives, you could, you could, you could palm them and, and
walk off with them if you were, if you were that kind of a
guy. Yeah, it's, you know, you, you wish that
kind of thing doesn't happen. Most of the time it doesn't, but
you'd be naive to think it never will, you know. Yeah.
So as I mentioned up front, you and I
talk about this a lot when, when you're on Thursday night knives or. I'm
just talking about you in general. To me you're
one of those businessmen to aspire
or, or to emulate, let me put it that way. And
you have done something over the past year, maybe a little bit
more that has really proven me right, which is
you've diversified. It's like you started, as
I mentioned, with your, with your ultra premium
slip joint knives and really got ahead of steam, built up, got a lot
of models out on a very regular schedule and
got a fan base going. And it also seems
like you got desire going and those who weren't
getting your knives weren't able to make the drop or, or,
or pay that money at that time or whatever. And
then once you had that head of steam built up, you
diversified. Tell us about that. Yeah,
so you Know, it stems from
I like making things happen, I like to
execute, I like to do things like, you know, I,
I don't know how to describe that. That's just something that I think is one
of my personality traits. I'm never
dissatisfied with the status quo.
So everything drives from that. And also, I love this,
I love what I do. And so it gives me an opportunity to
exercise creativity in so many ways. Like, and this is one of
the ways I really enjoy expressing and exercising my creativity
is, you know, what's ultimately the goal, I would say to put a
knife in every pocket, you know, at least temp somebody.
I don't ever pretend I'll be the brand for every person,
but I'd like to at least have an offering for everybody that they can
consider. Right, and so
what's the strategy there? Well, I
started where I felt I could be the most
pointed and deliver what I've
knew the market needed because I was targeting myself as the
consumer there other people who would
share my sensibilities and desires for a product in the
marketplace. And that was really no expense
spared. No corners cut, modern slip joint knife,
modern materials, but traditional form like that was
what I wanted to make. And,
you know, it's hard to say if I could have just never made
enough of those and just kept, you know, kept them
going, would I have ever wanted to branch out? It's hard to say, right? Like
if, if you could just focus your entire energy on expanding that
type of product line, would you look to
diversify? I don't know. But I don't know that there's any one product that can
achieve that. So you, you start,
you listen to what people want and what they have to say,
because I'm very open to the feedback.
And one of the things you would hear time and time again is,
man, I wish you had a more affordable offering. You know, and
it's for some people, they simply don't have it within their
budget to purchase a knife that expensive. For other people. It's just a
matter of principle. Like, I don't spend that much on a single pocket knife. I,
I, I, they'll buy three of them at a hundred dollars each, but they won't
buy one for 300. And I would never dispute
someone's logic because none of this is logical. They're just emotional purchases
to begin with. Yeah, right. They're all wants. So how you
define how you rationalize buying your wants,
like, is none of my business. Everybody has their own, their
own ruler for that, for measuring that. And so
then it becomes my job to say, well, what would that person
be interested in? And how do I make it make sense
within my brand, within my identity,
so that I can believe in the product? Because I won't sell
anything I want Carrie, or want one of my friends or my family to carry
around. Like, how much, how lame would it be for you to produce a knife
that you'd be embarrassed if someone gave a friend or a family as a gift?
You know, it's kind of like the way I think about things is like whatever
goes out there with my name, I have to be proud of and
be totally willing for all my friends and family to be given those as
gifts or spend their hard earned money on them either way. So.
So I started really thinking about how to sort of lay
it out. And there's a concept in
business, in marketing, in sales, called good, better, best.
And it's a way to sort of structure product offering.
And the way I perceive that is, okay, I started
at best. And let's just take
the slip joints because this makes the most sense in this context,
because that's the most developed product line I have.
So we have best, titanium slip joints, S 90
volts, whatever handle material is out there,
pretty much carte blanche. We can have whatever we want
and the price reflects that. Okay,
better. What does that look like? Well,
a trad. A more traditional knife with steel bolsters. We can reduce the cost
of manufacturing in the materials in the machine time.
We can limit the handle materials available
to try to meet a price point. And we can reduce the
expense associated with the seal. We can reduce the expense
finishings, the blades. As far as the cosmetic finishes,
we can reduce the packaging expense. There is a substantial packaging expense
with the premium stuff. There's custom artwork. There's the most
nicest microfiber cloth you can get anywhere. You know,
there's the metal cans. Like that's
something that we would need to sacrifice to reach the
better price point. There's the leather slip.
Right, exactly. So things that
you could do without, right? But
you know, so. So that was the genesis of the Steel series
and then recently an expansion of this price segment called
Ultralight. The Ultralight series.
And after I developed that and did an initial
release, I really started thinking hard about what
the good would be in the good, better, best, or the entry level or
the attainable price point item and what I wanted that
to look like. And that's. And you
know, along this journey, I'm getting more brave too in
stepping outside my comfort zone, taking Risks trying new things. Like some. A
lot of this is an evolution of my own growth
as a business person. So
if you would have asked me to do these things in the first six months
of sales, I'd have been like, I don't even have the capacity to think about
this stuff right now. Like, we're just trying to get this seed out of
the ground, you know. But once your seed becomes
sapling and then a small tree and it gets
roots and has some strength and can weather a storm, you start to think
like, okay, how do I get my branches out there right? Get more sun.
So I. And I, I say I. But I gotta
give Donnie my right hand man a lot of credit here because this is stuff
we talk about all the time. So that was when we conceived the
Gateway series. And it's like, okay, what is the Gateway
series supposed to be? Well, the Gateway series to
me was supposed to be the pinnacle of where
value and quality intersect. So, like,
we're going to, we're not going to cut corners so that the
quality suffers, but we're going to make decisions
that don't create a diminishing return, reducing the
perceived value, which is tough
because now you have even more constraints.
And what I thought this product should be,
you know, Gateway obviously means the
gateway to the brand. Like, that's what the art on the box shows. It shows
Jack at the gate with his arm pointing at the castle.
Like, welcome, you know, welcome to the family.
Come on through the gate. And so not only is it
the starting point for a Jack Wolf knife
collector who wants to not jump right to the premium
stuff per se, but also I wanted it to
reflect the bridge for the traditional knife
collector who may now get tempted by my
more modern screw construction offerings. And
so that was why I wanted to do it pinned was because that's like, okay,
I've got screw construction. I'm better and best. But if
I really want to entice the entry, call it the entry level
customer, which is often you're, you know, I mean,
gosh, most traditional knives production, traditional
knives are more or less entry level knives anyway. Like,
case knives are inexpensive. GECs at retail
are not super expensive. I mean, they've come up in price for sure.
But Rough Riders are not expensive and Rosecraft is not expensive. Like,
that's generally where the traditional knife market is.
So if I want to have an offering to get these folks into
Jack Wolf knives, I don't want it to be so foreign from those other
offerings. And so I challenged the manufacturer to do pin
Construction and they're like, we can do it. And it's actually
less expensive for us because there's way less
machining going on. And so there's a lot of
decisions there in how those knives were manufactured to
reduce costs. Like, we have thinner stock, we have full black ground
steel. We have as ground finishes,
as ground finish, meaning you're not the machine.
Okay. And it's beautiful. Actually. It, it,
the, the satin you get from the grinder or, or whatever, however
that's actually being made, it, it's beautiful as is. Yeah. This is
the gate. This is the Gateway Barlow. Just in case people are wondering why I
keep holding it up, this is what you're talking about. You've got steel bolsters,
wood too, which is great because I know initially for the
premium series, you held off on wood and other natural materials for a long
time, but we're now getting that in entry level here.
And the pin construction is frankly what I'm used to
and what I'm sure most people are used to in the slip joint. A lot
of this is like, you know me, stubborn in the beginning. Like I,
I want titanium hardware, I want screws, I want this to be
different. But after a few years of doing that, it's like, okay, I want
to make something else that's cool. And
yeah, this Dallas Gateway Barlows and what is ultimately going
to become the Gateway series of knives
is more of a, like more of a mass market product.
Ultimately, it's less of a niche product. And
in hindsight, I'm really glad I
progressed the way I did because I think
as we've seen demonstrated from other brands, it's really hard
if you start as a cost
friendly mass market brand to do anything
premium because there's a lot of pushback
from fans of your brand who don't
want to see you go up market whether they can afford it
or not. It's a. This like one of these interesting psycho psychology
observations. And a perfect example in my opinion
is Leatherman, who made this maybe for
decades, the, the blue collar man's
tool, right? Like on his tool belt, in his bag like
we make. And granted they have expensive Leathermans, but they've always
had cost conscious Leatherman's. Right. And it's
like that is the everyday man's multi tool. Well,
they come out with these knives that are beautiful and they're great, but they
were priced outside of what I think most people would agree
was for the everyday man. They got
reamed for it, you know. Yeah, yeah. Especially when it's
your first outing in that, in that particular
style of knife. I thought that was a little interesting too. I think they're
core customers felt abandoned, I think they
felt slighted, I think they felt
left behind. And it's
harder for a brand like Leatherman
now. Have they done it? You know, I'm just going to quarterback here,
right. So take my 2 cents for what it's worth. But my, my
view of it was like, man, if you guys would have started with something more
in line price wise with your multi tools, you could have very
easily come out with like a version of it with upgraded parts
and metals. Just you gotta leave something for your boys,
you know. Yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And that's not what
people go to Leatherman for. You know, it seems like
you have to train your customer upfront. And I
hesitate to use the word train, but that's basically what I
mean. If, if you are expecting to pay $300 for a jack
Wolf knife from the very start, when something comes along for
170 bucks or something comes along for 75 bucks, it's like,
whoa. Especially when it comes with the
reputation, right. And you, you use the keyword and it's
expecting and it's about managing customer
expectations. That's what it's all about. Like customers
had expected since I started that we produced
expensive but very high quality knives. Like you won't hear anybody,
generally speaking, dogging me about the quality of my stuff.
You know, we're known for good customer service, we're known for good quality.
We're known for being active members of this community.
We were never known for having offerings that were
more reachable. Me, that was an opportunity.
And so, you know, I have to make sure that when
I do that my customers who
expect quality from me are not disappointed. Right.
Because if I came out with a piece of junk like no one's going
to be happy with that. And I just think it's
easier than to go from a
luxury brand with more mass market products
than the other way around. I think it's really hard to step up
market, honestly. Yeah. Is like, it's like
a film director with an actor. You want an actor who's over
the top from the start and who you can pare back on as
opposed to someone who can't quite ever get there.
Anyway. That's, that's, that's what, that's what pops into my mind. I
want to talk about jwclab, but before we do, you mentioned customer service.
I personally have never had any customer service
any Issues that would require customer service. But what. What
is your philosophy there, and what are the kind of customer service issues that come
your way? That's pretty straightforward. I mean, first of all, I answer
every customer service message personally. So we
have email inbox support, Jack Wolf knives. Those come to me. I answer
them. I am the only one who does DMs on
Facebook, Instagram, and in my own personal
Facebook private messages. So
philosophy point number one, you reach out, you're going to talk to
someone who has the authority to make a decision to give you the service
you need. It might not always be me, you know that. There might be a
time where I have to delegate that, but it'll be one of the last things
I ever let go of because I take a personal responsibility
in the satisfaction of anybody who has a Jack Wolf knife or
any of our products on honestly. So that's number one. Number two
is it's really actually quite simple.
Try to listen and understand a customer's
issue, whatever it is. Try to ascertain
what they're looking for as a solution. If they're unsure or if
it's not clear, provide some options.
And every option you provide has to be their
betterment, regardless of what it costs me. Like, it
doesn't matter what it costs me. It does. It's not part of the equation.
The equation is like, you reached out to me because you were either
inconvenienced, curious about something, like, for some
reason, you committed time and energy outside of what you should
otherwise be doing to contact me. And
so I got to figure out why, and I got to figure out how to
make it right so that you don't leave frustrated,
angry, or disappointed. You know, what'll that do for you? Well,
there's. You do it because it's the right thing to do. Like, bottom line,
that's really. That's the end of the conversation. But the. But the
consequence of that is people are
satisfied with the customer service. And what is
converse? If someone is unsatisfied with customer service,
it's terrible for the business because this is a small community.
People talk. You can write 99
people and wrong one person. And 99 of those people you write
it will say Nothing. And the one person you wrong will make sure
that 99 people, you write it, hear about the fact you wronged
them. Like, that's human nature, you know?
And so it behooves you to write everybody because it's the right
thing to do. But there's like a ripple effect from that.
You know, people Trust you. They'll recommend you.
They'll tell other people that, don't worry. He'll take care of
you. Like, you want that. You,
you know, I, I. I feel very strongly about it.
I don't understand how some of these brands don't take it seriously.
Like, it dumbfounds me, honestly, how some people will
look for any reason to nickel and dime a
customer over something. Oh, well, you scratch that hardware, I'm gonna charge you
five bucks for the shipping for some new screws. Like, just send them the screws,
man. Yeah, it's like, don't nickel and dime people. It, it
sucks. You know, I mean, I'm sure you're
being a. A collector before you ever started this company
has. Has a good deal to do with that. I've talked to people who
got into knives, weren't into knives, and who have great customer service. But
I've also spoken with some people here who have gotten into knives
because they saw an opportunity, they saw an opening in the market
and went for it. But, you know, they
don't have that. Or at least when I spoke to them, didn't have that personal
connection to knives and the love of collecting them
and having them and wanting everything, you know, that. That extends
itself to wanting to like the guy who's making them and selling them to you.
Yeah. Yeah. This is a very. You have.
I think probably something that helps me
is that I understand
the collector and the nuances and
idiosyncrasies of that state of mind.
Yeah. And sometimes it's, like, a bit much. Right.
Like, let's fix it. Sometimes you're like, oh, my gosh.
Right? Like, how did he even notice that? You know?
But at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not here to judge people.
I'm just here to provide service. Now, there's always
that case of someone who just can never be satisfied. You know, you try,
you do everything, even beyond what's reasonable. And they don't want to be
satisfied. Those people, they don't want to be satisfied. They just want to grouse. Like,
you can get to a point where the customer, it's like, hey, look, I'm gonna
give you your money back. Keep the knife. But I'm not the
brand for you. I think you should pursue another brand in the future.
I don't think you're gonna be satisfied with what we do. I'm sorry it didn't
work out right. Like, you can. You can do that,
potentially never have to do that, you know, But I think what some people
do is they take that theoretical customer who's
impossible, and. And then they assume every customer is going to be that
way. And their attitude reflects this sort of
combative position of, like, I need to fight these people off
because they're going to do this to me. Like, that's not the case 99
out of a hundred times. Could be that they themselves are those people.
Yeah, exactly. And I feel for
the customers who engage with those brands and get burned. Like, I don't want that
to happen to me. I don't want that to happen to anybody. But the only
power I have is to essentially,
you know, walk the walk, let's just say. And like, I.
You'll rarely ever hear me even mention our customer service because,
like, I don't want to be the one bragging about customer service. Because if you
are, it's almost a red flag. It's like, you just had good
customer service. You wouldn't have to brag about it. It would just wealth. Like, I
really believe that. Let the customers discuss amongst each
other the customer service. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's funny
you mentioned how it can be a little much the collector. Like, I. I can
remember and, and this, this isn't so much anymore. Maybe
it's because I'm absolutely awash in amazing knives,
but I can remember times where I'd be falling asleep thinking about my
collection. Oh, maybe there's a hole in my collection in this area,
or maybe I should spend the money on this or that. And, and,
you know, it is. It's a collector's mindset, and
it's, you know, a little bit addictive. And. And it
can be a. A bit of a. Well,
it can be a difficult state of mind to manage. So I would imagine as
a purveyor, as a maker, as. As someone in your
position could deal with people who are in the throes of that state
of mind, it. It could, you know, could be a sensitive
area to. To walk around. Yeah. You know, for anybody listening,
doesn't even matter what business you're in. Here's one of
my sort of rules about this. If you get an email
or text message or if it's a written communication. That's the point. If it's
a written communication and whatever the request
is in, your answer back is not an absolute matter
of fact. Like, no gray area, no
trying to read between the lines. Like, if it is just an absolute matter of
fact, go ahead and continue that dialogue in
writing. Like, hey, Ben, you
might get another pocket clip for my primo jack. I bent it
climbing out of the car. Okay. Which version do you
have? I've got this. I've got the black. My part. Cool.
Send me your address. It's on its way. Like, that can be handled in
writing. It's just very cut and dry. Or you might
get a message that says, hey, man, you know, my pocket clip
is a little loose. Um, I'm not sure if it's supposed to be like this.
You know, I just got this thing, you know, what should I do?
Like, that's not an easy conversation back and forth
necessarily. I just write back, hey, man, here's my cell phone number. Call me.
Like, I've given out my cell phone number. I don't know how many times. Like,
the. At least half the time there's a customer service inquiry. I don't even
want to go back and forth in writing. I just want to talk. I want
to hear you explain to me what's going on. I want to hear the
tone in your voice. I want to pick up a few
of the clues, perhaps, that were left out of the written message. I
want to listen. You know, that's the key word. I want to listen.
By listening your actual voice,
I now have a way better understanding than me trying to
read between the lines, potentially on a written message. Yeah,
sometimes you think this person's fuming, Matt. They're not. Or sometimes
you think they're calm and they're actually upset.
So that's another thing. Like, customers,
they're reaching out to you, and they don't want to be like, they
want to be doing something else. They're reaching out to you because they feel. Feel
a need to get something resolved. So do them the
courtesy of getting on the phone and
listening to what they have to say. You know, it'll help you resolve
things faster and to a higher level of their
satisfaction, 100%. And they will feel like, oh, my gosh, this guy
called me. That's amazing. Or anyone called me, let alone hear it all the
time. I cannot believe I'm talking to the owner of the company. Like, holy
crap, you contacted me back within 10 minutes and gave me your phone number. Like,
this never happens. I'm like, it's a shame that it never happens. This is how
it used to be, you know? But all these modern conveniences
suck the humanity out of some of this stuff. Yeah, you know,
please don't get me started. And you could on that. I want
to talk about my three most carried knives
recently. The Tango. I carried this. I'VE got stuff. Nail
trails as the day is long. All over this thing.
Got the scuffle, and I've got to want to cut myself the
collusion. Let's talk about JW Collab. What is
JW Collab and how did this come about? Yes.
So this was sort of the
confluence of a few things I wanted to accomplish.
So the first thing was
when you create a design language,
which I know that's not your favorite term, Right. Design language is that there was
something colorway. Colorway was the one you don't like.
So. But I feel like design language is right up there with colorway. Potentially.
It's. It's up there. You create a design language, or I should
say a recognizable pattern of
knives in a catalog. You created a box.
Now, that's good. And bad is good because someone could be like, that's a jack
wolf. I can't. I don't even see the label. I know it's a jack wolf.
Like, that's good. Arguably, you. You. You need
that. Yeah. However it becomes.
Defines you, and it becomes hard to have a reason
to step outside of that box. Like to. To have the
story to tell as to why you did it just looks
random. So I wanted to find a way to
produce something that is different from my
regular stuff, partly just to keep things interesting
and also to try to reach customers who aren't turned
on by traditional knife styles. The other
thing is, one of the cool things about this business is
all the awesome people that I've become friends with and had a
chance to sort of collaborate with, but not on
products available to the market. So, for
example, Nick Rogers, the Scuffle, you know, he's helped me with
CAD work. Chris Ortiz, we're friends. I visited him in
California a bunch of times. He's helped me at my table
in this. At the CCKS California Custom Knife show, he helped
me do CAD work. We kind of created the first gunslinger together. He
really helped me understand how to lay that knife out. Jacob
Ginsburg, who did the
collusion, you know, I know him all
these years, as I've known Chris. He's now out in Phoenix in the shop
space with Corey, my friend of 45 years. Like, these are
guys I'm friends with. And so it's like, I
want to do projects with these guys. And so that was one. And also
it takes the pressure off me to keep producing designs. Like, that's another
you element to. This is like, I'd like to put some more designs in my
pipeline that I'm that I
delegated because it gets really hard, as we
talked about on our last Thursday night knives, to switch between
sort of running the business side of things and then designing a knife side of
things. They are. They are contradictory.
So I was like, man, I've got three
of these. Like, I'm going to commit to three of these projects, and
I'm going to. It's not just going to be these random knives. Like, I'm going
to brand them as part of a series of knives. And
they're collaborative. And so collab starts with
a C, but could also start with a K. JWK will collab.
Like, that kind of stuff comes to be pretty easy. That. That marketing kind of
sht. These projects were started.
I was looking. I think we started these projects in July 2023.
I was looking at the first CAD file me and Nick did together. It was
from July 2023. So.
And so the. And I. I think the first one I did was with Chris
the Tango. So these projects did not happen
overnight. Every one of these projects, well, I'm not
so much the fixed blade, but for sure the two folders
was new ground. Like, things we haven't done before.
First thumb stud, first compound grind. There's all kinds of firsts in
the scuffle. First internal stop in, first back
slipper, thicker blade stock, thicker handles. Like,
there's a bunch of unique stuff hidden hardware, internal
threaded inserts in the scales. Like, so to me, it was like
another thing was, this is an opportunity for us to break ground,
break new ground. Like, we can test features,
we can sort of prove these things out, and then I
can take from these and implement
them wider across all my products if I so choose. So
it's kind of like a breeding ground for innovation. It's
an opportunity to open up my catalog
to more modern or different designs, attract new customers to the brand.
It's just a cool story to tell, you know, like,
guys like to see collaborative collaborations within our niche,
I think. And it helped me put designs in my
pipeline when I was otherwise really busy.
So, yeah, it's a lot. There's a lot wrapped up in that whole thing. It's
like your skunk works kind of where.
Where you get to innovate and do stuff that.
That's out of your. Your wheelhouse. Yeah. And I got. And it gets
me working with my buddies, and it's like two heads are better than one. So
it's like, it's just cool. Like, it's been a real hoot for.
Me and your buddies happen to Be at least so far, happen
to be so incredibly talented. I, I've loved Nick
Rogers stuff since his very first
prototype of which I'm lucky to own one of those.
Jacob Ginsburg. I've been following him on Instagram for ages and
have been coveting his knife. I had a chickpea here on loan years
ago and I've always loved his work. So clean and beautiful,
which is interesting. Well, for, for
a number of reasons, but his work is so clean, so beautiful. And then
Cerberus knives I had a glancing knowledge of, but
the Tango man, that just blew me away when this came
out. A 3 inch
modern folder that, that absolutely dominated
my, my front right pocket, which is rare for a knife of that size.
Yeah, those guys, you know what, they're all younger dudes in
their 20s. Like, that's the other thing is like I'm turning
45 in less than a month. Like, I'm not in my 20s
anymore. The older we get, the wiser we get, the less cool we
get. Like, that's how the world works, you know? So it's like, okay,
I can be with these younger dudes, hopefully do a little
mentoring, like lead by example, and then they can
bring what's fresh, interesting and cool to the table, you
know, because that's what the young guys, that's what they got going
on. So it's been a great success. I've been
super happy with it. You know, there's reasons you could argue
against it. Like, it's very time consuming, it costs me more
because I pay royalties. Like I don't need them. But
it's like those are all the wrong reasons to destroy a
project like that. It's like, we're not doing this for all
those sensible reasons. We're doing this because it's fun, it's
exciting, it's interesting, and I want to. It has to make
sense, of course, you know, but it's like
it's hard. And if it's hard, it's probably good, you know?
Yeah, that's, that's true. And, and also, I mean, what a, what
a way to not typecast yourself or typecast your
company. You. At this point, the one thing that
you can know about Jack Wolf Knives, in my opinion,
is the quality. It's always going to be a quality
build. It's going to be like super high quality build and it's always going to
be beautiful. But I don't know what to expect from you guys. I don't know
if you're going to come out with a Big bowie knife or, or a tiny
little, you know, keychain. Anything could happen at
this point, you know, starting with the slip joints,
maneuvering all around the slip joint space, and then, and then going
out into fixed blades and, and modern folders.
That's the cool thing. You're not typecast, but
you can still identify by the way, this thing is so
amazing, but you can still identify a jack wolf knife,
you know? Yeah. And I, my what
I hope one, anything is like that. The guys that are into it are having
fun, right? Like we're having fun. We hope
this translates to you guys who are coming along on the journey with us,
that you're having fun, you know, and
for people not knowing what's coming next, I couldn't ask for anything more.
We're trying to keep it interesting, exciting,
engaging, and not, you know,
delivering what's expected, which is a quality knife
and, you know, good service and a good
time. So how far out ahead? I mean, you've got all these
lines in the water or irons in the fire. I think that's more apropos.
You have all these irons in the fire. How do you,
how far out. Do you know what's coming next? I'm already
committed halfway into next year
and I'm already working now on
what's going to happen in 2027. Like, right now
I'm focused on what rears its head in 2027.
That's kind of where I'm at, like starting new projects, working on
that part of the pipeline. I really need to be about two years
out at all times, which is crazy. Which
is crazy because it's hard, it's. It makes it hard to
appreciate what's happening now when so much of your
thoughts and efforts behind the scenes are focused on
stuff people will see in a year and a half to two years. Yeah.
And it raises the, the inevitable question,
you know, especially with a, a
trendy kind of world product world as
knives are, what's going to be hot? You know, I, I'm sure
that comes into your thinking. I'm sure that's also where JW Collab
can help. Yeah, yeah. We,
you. You're trying to balance being flexible
and nimble with good forward thinking and planning.
And there's production time cycles that you have to consider. So
that's really, it's challenging for sure. And
every once in a while you'll have to pivot. Like, you know,
you might think today, like, oh, we're gonna be able to. I
can make. I could do. I don't know, I, you know, I'm just trying to
think here. Like, you could say the future is this,
insert whatever this is, and you could start planning to do a bunch
of that. And then six months from now, that first one
comes out, and then the second and the third. It's like, the future is not
that. The future is definitely not that, because the present
isn't that. So we gotta shift gears, you
know. And so I try to have a bit of a mix going on here.
Like, we're working on projects in the good, better, best
price ranges. Like, I, I've got projects going in all three of those
and I can sort of try to gauge the market and
temper my offerings and meet what I expect that to
be. And I think, rationally speaking, like, you can make some
assumptions that are probably pretty reasonable. Like,
let's say you have a mix of. Let's just break it up into two chunks.
You've got affordable items and premium
items. Well, okay, what is the split? Well, it's probably like 70,
30, 80, 20, you know, something like that. It's not 50, 50,
you know, like, how many Lexuses does Toyota
sell for every Toyota, it's not one to one, you know,
so somewhere there's like, you could spitball that number and you're probably
not going to be too far off just based on your observation of the world,
you know. And so if you sort of aim in that general
direction, I think you'll be okay. And you sort of fine tune
as you go. Yeah, yeah, that's,
it's. I mean, that's exactly how I see it
on the road. Anyway. So USA made. You
made something. It was like a scalpel.
It's not a knife that I've experienced. I don't think I saw it when I
was at Blade Show Atlanta, but I know it was a very exclusive, I think
maybe a dealer exclusive. What. What am I talking about?
Yeah, so we've been, you know, one of the criticisms is,
hey, you guys need more USA stuff. So I've been working on that. That is,
if you are not yourself a manufacturer, very difficult to
procure products that are made in the USA that you can get in
sufficient quantities in reasonable times. So we've
had two major, I would say one minor. I
don't even know. I call either the major. We'll just call them special projects.
So the one you're referring to is called the Prickly Pear. Yes, yes,
yes. And that was a scalpel with a tanto.
You know, the blade is shorter than the handle, so
it's the scalpel style, and that was
actually designed by Taylor Cortez. So Taylor is
the leather maker here in Phoenix. Another guy in his 20s.
We spent a lot of time together. He's made a lot of leather slips
for me, and we've
collaborated in that regard. And he came to me and said, I've got this really
cool scalpel I want to make. There you go. And,
you know, like, can we do this project together? And I'm like, okay, I'm
interested. So we
ended up. Can't even remember how we got the lead at this point, because it's
been a while, but we found a small manufacturer out of the San
Diego area called Misfits Machining.
And it's a gentleman named Brandon Garby. And he's really
cool guy. He's, you know, in the military. He's a
Marine. And he, I think he's still career
military, but he has this as a additional business.
And so I flew out there, met with him,
and sort of negotiated the project.
And so the collaboration between me and Taylor was. All right,
Taylor, like, you'll produce the leather slips and
contribute that towards the project. You know, I'll
fund the knives, and we'll both
promote. I'll, we'll distribute off my website. So those never went to
a dealer. They were all sold direct by me. Oh, okay, okay. And
we'll, we'll share the proceeds, you know, accordingly.
So, yeah, that's how we structured that project, and it was fun. Now, the,
the challenge with Made in the USA stuff is
it's more expensive, obviously, and
to then be able to pay a dealer to distribute them,
like, to have an additional margin, like, call it a hand in the
pot, really pushes the purchase price up high,
like the customer's purchase price. And so, like, we're,
those are $200, and I'm not making, like, I'm
selling them direct. So basically, I sell those to the customer for what would
equate to a wholesale price to a dealer, because I don't
want them to be priced to where they're less likely
to sell, you know? Yeah. So
that'll be the case with probably all of my USA made projects is
those will be sold direct by Jack Wolf knives. And with.
Because I don't want, I didn't want that to be a $300 knife. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's, it's not, not necessarily a good.
It makes it harder to distribute. Right. Yeah, I, I,
I would make the same. If I sold that to a dealer, then the
dealer's going to mark it up and sell it. But they're harder. It's
harder to sell at that price point. If I sell them direct,
I can at least get them sold for a price point I think is better,
more, more attractive to the customer. It's just I don't have the reach
of my dealer network, you know, so that's the risk
is like, hey, like we can offer what I think is an attractive price,
but people aren't really accustomed to buying from my website. Like you don't buy Jack
Wolf knives from Jack Wolf knives. You buy leather slits, you buy T shirts, coffee
mugs, you buy the knickknacks. Yeah. But knives you get from DLT
or knifecenter Blade HQ or wherever. Right pocket knives.
So not a good long term strategy or not a good
company wide strategy, but kind of a novelty and something
that you can offer from time to time that, that will
get people excited. People for whom USA made is,
is 100% important. Yeah. Icing on the cake.
Right. Like the dealer distributed products are like the bread and
butter. Right. And then the special projects the USA
made direct to consumers. Gravy on the plate, so to speak.
And it's time consuming. But it's like we do it because we
want to have these offerings out there. You can make the case it's
not worth it. It's way easier. You just continue to source
overseas, distribute them through your dealer network, focus on
growing that side of it because it's less energy
than going direct to consumer. But like I don't really. It's not what guides me
all the time. What guides me is like wanting to put the offerings out there
that I would want to buy myself or listening to what the consumers
are telling me they want and sometimes stepping outside of
what seems to be the easy way to do things and doing it and seeing
how it goes. You know, it also just lends itself
to. I mean we talked about five different lines
of knives tonight and that's a six. That's just, you know,
diversifying your offerings. And I think that that's, that's
really great, especially when it's when, when you've already established
yourself and, and the, the prickly
pear totally looks like a Jack Wolf knife. And I'm not sure if it's
because of the surface treatment of the handles or what it is, but
those are identifiable as Jack Wolf knives. I'm glad,
I'm glad you see that. You know, we did put the starburst pattern
milled into the G10 scales and it does Have
a Taylor Cortez sheath, which you'll see Brandon, with
my logo. Now, the other thing we did that was
really, really cool was the projects we've done with
LT Wright. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we did.
So I could. This could be our story in and of itself. So I want
to really boil this down. There's a mutual
admiration between the crew at LT Wright and the crew at
Jack Wolf. Nice. Like, we love what they do, their
guys love what we do, and we sort
of all got to know each other at Blade show
two years ago or where. I, like, I can't. I don't know the timeline, but
this has been cooking for a minute. And
one of the guys who works for LT and Donnie, my guy,
like, they were steaming and, like, we need a
collaboration. Like, we. This has to happen.
Okay? So they get LT to come over to the table
and introduce. We get introductions. And he's looking at all my stuff.
And like, that dude likes the traditional styles, you know?
And so, you know, I like this one. I like that. This is cool. My
guys are always pulling out your knives in the shop, this and that, you know,
so we sort of get acquainted.
So more talks happen. The next show
happens. We talk about, like, hey, how cool would it be to
take one of the Jack Wolf styles and have it made
by you guys? Right? Like, you've never done
anything quite like that before. Lt Wright makes primarily
Bushcraft knife. That's what outdoor knives. Bushcraft knives.
And I. So he's at the show and I'm like, which one of
these do you want to dip? And he picked up the vampire. He's like,
I really like this one. Right? Yeah. Yep.
And so I'm like, all right. So I ended
up flying out there and we made a prototype,
and I've visited there three times. Like, it's all Secret
Squirrel stuff I got going on. I love that.
But ultimately, we produced some
small batches of handmade vampire hunters is what
we called them ironwood, dyed bone.
And people loved it. They loved that
it was an lt, right? Like one they've never seen. People were like, they loved
it because it was a Jack Wolf made by LT in the usa
Magnacut. Like, it was just super cool.
The downside is they're very labor intensive to be make
because they. I've been in their shop and watch them make knives, so they
make knives quickly with not a lot of hands on
deck. And so a lot of the design elements in their
knives are such that they can be executed in an
efficient manner by different guys. In the shop. But
the vampire hunter like has all these facets on the handle.
And we were doing ironwood and bone, which are individual skin
scales that have to be glued and shaped and stuff.
So it's just the type of project where if I could get more
of them, I know I could sell more of them, you know. Yeah. Yep. But
they're just time consuming. So, you know, I've been trying
to figure out with lt like is there anything we can do
to revise this and make it. Make them a little easier to make.
Right. So we can get more of them. So we'll see.
Like those guys are very busy in their shop. They have
a year's backlog at least from dealer. From just
open POS with their dealers. So there's
only so much they can do and lt like. I'll tell you what, Bob, if
you ever get a chance to go out his way,
Eastern Ohio, it's about a 20 minutes or so west
of the Pittsburgh airport. I drive right by there.
Every time I drive home, just reach out to him and arrange a time
to do a little knife junkie tour. They do, they have a little
podcast station. It's just so impressive. And
what's. It's not just the operation, it's. LT is a leader,
the camaraderie amongst these guys and to see this
like teamwork going on in there and just to get the whole vibe is
like I can't impress upon you how cool it is.
You would really, really like it. All right. So
I had him on the show recently and I really good to him, what a
great guy. And I, I follow him on social media and, and
the videos they put out from their shop are
just. I love watching them. It's like I want to be there
instead of where I am at the time, which is usually
work. Just, just a real quick note. Yeah. I, I
happen to have an LT WR mini Northern Hunter here and I just happen
to have a vampire that. That was not. Not
intended. But it's kind of. If these two had a baby.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So
you know, I, I could talk about how awesome LT and those guys
are forever. And honestly they're quietly the.
Some of the best marketers in our industry. You know, they have
a forum like
www.theirforumname.com.
like they have their own forum that's been around since before
Facebook group called the Pout House and they have
like paying members and it is a highly
active forum. Like their guys love
it and lt's guys are
actively engaging all the time. In there. And they
do so many cool little special projects in the shop. Like, they
do such a good job, you
know, engaging with their folks. It's
really, really cool. There's a lot to learn from those guys. And
they're so humble. Like they will not their own horn.
I'll sit here and tune it all day because it's like, wow, you guys run
an efficient business. You make high quality knives, everybody loves you.
Lt, you're this honest, hardworking, humble, like father
figure. It's not for show. That's who you really are. You know,
you have these young guys who would die for you, and you have these
consumers who you just know so well how to keep
them happy and interested in what you do. Very
impressive. So as, as we wrap up
here, I mean, yes, he is awesome and a
great shop and, and who knows, may maybe, you know, he might not
be on the young up and cominging side of things, but
he's on the other side, the wise side. So who knows, maybe there's a
JW collab in there. But whether or not there is, you've already
done a collaboration with him. And I, I, I hope there's more because I
would love to get a bone version. I think that would be so cool. Yeah,
I, I, and I say all this about him because it's like,
that's the spirit of what we're trying to do here. We're trying to have
fun collaborative projects with other people in the
community to ultimately bring you guys something that's better than
I would have just brought by myself. I think LT saw the value in that
too. It's like, hey, we can offer a product here that
is going to be different from what our guys expect, and it's going to be
something to talk about and it's going to be something people really like, and it's
that two heads are better than one sort of philosophy.
So, yeah, man, I know that's part of what you wanted to talk about today
is the collab stuff. It just
produces something that I could not have produced on my own.
Amen. I, I love creative collaboration. There's
nothing like it. All the greatest things we have are due to that.
Ben, thank you so much for coming on, spending your time with us here
on the Knife Junkie podcast. It's always a pleasure, sir. And for those of you
who are. Patrons, gentlemen, junkies, we will be
continuing, continuing this conversation for a little while,
so be sure to check that out. All right? Thank you so much, Ben. It's
been a pleasure, sir. Thank you. Very much knife themed shirts,
hoodies, mugs, water bottles and more. The knife
junkie.com shop ever strap a knife again?
Even though it gets no real use? Face up to what you are.
You're a knife junkie. There he goes. Ladies and gentlemen, Ben
Belkin of Jack Wolf Knives. I I admire the man greatly. He's a great
dude and also someone to keep your eye on in terms
of you got a business, doesn't matter what it is. Take notes from
that guy. He knows what he's talking about. Always a pleasure to have Ben
with us. For Jim working his magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob
DeMarco saying until next time, don't take dull for an answer.
Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed the show,
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