Welcome to the Knife Junkie Podcast. Your weekly dose of knife
news and information about knives and knife collecting. Here's your
host, Bob The Knife Junkie DeMarco.
Welcome to the Knife Junkie podcast. I'm Bob DeMarco. On this
edition of the show, I'm speaking with James Williams, luminary
of the knife design and martial arts world.
James spent many years serving in the US army and in the deep
study of fighting at close range. He's codified his
own system of armed and unarmed close quarters combat
and has taught that system to military special operators of
all ilk. I first met James in the Sheridan Hotel
lobby during the Blade Show 2022 and
we had our first conversation on this show later that year.
I'm excited to have him back on the show for an examination of the intersection
of real world martial arts, escalation of force and the
use and design of fighting knives. We'll dive deep
into those heady waters with Mr. Williams. But first, be sure to like, comment,
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battlebox James, welcome back to the Knife Junkie podcast,
sir. It's great to see you. Nice to see you again. Well Bob,
to those who maybe didn't see the first episode, let's, let's just dive a
little bit into your past, get a little context for the conversation we're
gonna have. You served in the U.S. army? Yeah, I
was in the army from 66 to 69.
You know, I grew up. I grew up. I was born in the 40s,
as. My Irish friends say, the Forties. I grew up going
Catholic school with the Irish side. Had to start fighting at an early. Age whether
I liked it or not. And I was actually a small
kid growing up and I couldn't see and I didn't know that until
second grade. I literally couldn't see your eyes from four feet away. I was legally
blind without glasses and didn't know till second grade. So
thick glasses, not a big kid. Knew kid school a lot because he
moved a lot so in those days,
fighting at school was a common thing. On the way to school, on the. Way
back from school, I actually, I didn't,
I didn't like it very much and I wasn't that good at it
in the beginning. But when I look back, there was a code
and I think the value of that when I see so many even guys going
to the military now that have never actually been to fight, you know,
and I'm just talking like a schoolyard fight, you know, not so.
So it's kind of interesting. But so that kind of gave
me a desire to be better at
learning how to do that. Right. And so I've spent
most of my entire life at different levels of different things
doing stuff like that and not
always under controlled circumstances, shall we say.
And I was really fortunate at
one point to.
Meet Donna J. Sensei and have a look into
the old Cody. With the old systems. Right.
So I wrestled, I wrestled a bit in high school and college. I
coached wrestling, I boxed, I kickboxed, I was
successful at. Somehow they found people I could beat in the 70s.
So I was a successful kickboxer with a really
amazing teacher, Frank Scalercio Jr. Who the best
martial artist nobody's ever heard of. And he
brought boxing and boxing from Boba Olsen. So he trained at
boxing with former. Middleweight champ Boba Olsen.
Oriental Martial Arts 64, 65. I got a motorcycle
so I could drive across town and be shot in the Yoko Nawatei.
So I've studied several karate Systems, Tan. So Dr.
Taekwondo showing you
Filipino systems, Chinese systems,
Russian. Yeah. Stuff from all over.
It's been very, very interested in
continuing. To expand and see what actually people did, how and
why. Been
quite involved with teaching military special operations and not just
ours and having other
experiences plus working with them.
And realizing the difference between engagement,
reciprocity and art.
So almost everything we call martial arts now involve engagement and
reciprocity. And almost all of them are based on, are sport based of some kind.
It may be violent sports. Right.
The problem when you have lethality is engagement, reciprocity
is that it's, it's,
there's a. The risk factor really climbs. Ih
killing in ancient Japan was common.
Because you've got two people standing 6, 7, 8ft apart with
30 inches of steel and. Yeah. And you know,
and even those swords, catastrophic, you know, doesn't
necessarily stop the. Other person in the moment. Right. And
knives especially. A lot of times it just feels like a bumper. You don't
even know until afterwards, you know, what's, what's going on and
even shooting people. And ask anybody. It was in 93 in the battle of the
Black Sea in Somalia. Black Hawk down, the movie in the.
Book, you know, they were using green. Tip, you know,
bang pop, right? And people shooting back and they're like
hitting them because it's just penetrating through, right?
Those guys have changed. They're using different ammo. That
was. That was a call from people in logistics. We
have a lot of this because. The Russians do not come from full. So here's
a whole bunch of ammo. Problem is that ammo is not designed for what we're
doing. Didn't work very well. But anyway, so.
So working into systems
that were designed not to have engagement
reciprocity started
right around 1980. I'd done stuff with Aikido, but
I wouldn't consider that a martial art before. We continue,
because I want to hear about this engagement reciprocity concept.
But you mentioned a whole bunch of different martial arts. And I know a lot
of us know you from your knife design. We may assume
your. Your various designs from knives. We may assume that
you're very heavily steeped in the Japanese fighting systems.
But you mentioned all these different fighting systems. You mentioned
Russian, Filipino, Chinese. What is the through
line? We all have the same human body. What's the through
line between all? So the thing that makes the biggest.
Difference is the operating system.
And where I found that first time that I found that was
in Yanagiri with Anjei Sensei, who
inherited that from Yoshikenji Sensei, the son of Yokita
Kotaro Yota Kotaro is well known. And.
Yoshikenji came over here just before the Second World War and
then was interned in a camp. Due to war.
Camp Topaz. I mean, got out just as things. Were
turning in the war, but he. Had to go to the east coast. And that's
why I'm Jason met him. And so that was my
first look into a different psycho, A
whole different strategy of engagement because
everything else had been engagement of reciprocity blocks
and all kinds of stuff. Although I have to
say the Filipino. System, Dosi Pares and
Omen Kenyete was really slick. Much, much, much different.
I've trained with Lenny Perses Priestess personally, but that kind of stuff
back and forth. That's not Little Man Yeti did. I guess I
can tell that story though. Everybody's dead. So Frank
was over there, late 70s. He actually
had a house in the Philippines. And so he's. They
were out. They were out in the bush, out in the jungle. And they were
having this whole little. Competition going on and old man Can
Yeti was kicking everybody's ass. And so Frank's talking to Remedy, says,
hey, you need to go fight this guy. And he's like, do you want to
do it? So Frank said, I'll go fight him. This was typical of Frank, right?
Did it with Bobo, Olsen got in the ring with Bobo, found out I don't
know how to box. I'm an 8 degree or a 6. Degree, and dogs are
going to know. How to box anyway. And so, you know,
old man kicked his ass. And so I came back and said,
no, he's my teacher now. You wouldn't even fight him.
And so we changed what we were doing with the. With our niece into
the dosupadis. And that was way slicker. Not the clanging,
bashing, lot of, lot. Lot more sophisticated
movement that made a. Lot more sense in the moment if you have.
If you have an edge weapon. And so,
so that was kind of a little look, but I wasn't ready for it. So
psychologically at the time. I actually went by on J. Sensei's
dojo in 1969
because I had a Cuban girlfriend that just escaped Castro, actually,
and she lived out in part of la that was close
to where he had done them. Were driving by and saying, ancient samurai
martial arts. I didn't see that again until 1980. Right.
So. But it took me a while to. You know, realized
that there were some other things out there. I
came back and got involved with aikido from a gentleman I'd known before
who was Marine Pacific Campaign, badly wounded in
Guadalcanal, also was a
Marine amateur boxing champion. And
I just realized they didn't have anything that could even do anything
against someone like me. What are we going to do with something else? Right. I'd
had way too much experience at that point in time.
And so you're talking about Aikido had nothing. Yeah, yeah.
There was just nothing there in the process. And they kept talking about this, but
it wasn't something that they could make work.
Right. Not on someone like me. Now at that point, I
wrestled. Coach wrestling, boxing, kickboxing,
different styles of karate, Filipino arts,
stuff that happened and other, other things that were not organized,
shall we say. And so, you know, and I'm not a small
person. And so
one day just got frustrated. With me and he pointed to this. Guy that used
to work out in the back of the. Of the dojo was a cafeteria
at the University of California, San
Diego. And So
I started, started training with him, who was a student
adjacent, one of the instructors. And I realized, oh, this is the stuff they
actually used for war. It's really different, right?
And so, so I started on that path.
Still did other things. I remember I heard
Mitchumashta, which is probably good too. Hadn't been in
contact with him a long time. Heard about the Gracies,
let my brother in law know. We met Rusty in college.
We. We got a fight on the mat. He had butted me. He said I
had buttoned for us, but he's not true and got suspended for a week and
became best friends. And later on I married his little sister, right? But I gave
him. I said, hey, these guys are doing this, so why don't you go check
it out, right? So, you know, after a few months I said, so what's
the difference? He said, you got to come up, right? So I drove up
there after one of Hunter's classes and rolled
around with. Hodion and was like, oh, this is really different, okay.
And so I started going up to the Gracies. I'd go up and train that
when. You'Re not to be with Don Que Sensei. And then I'd go to.
Then I'd go to the Gracie's afterwards. And my brother ended up
becoming one of the Dirty Dozen, the first
of the black belts, right? I think he's a fourth or fifth degree
that he was fourth to be a long time ago
and had my boys do that, which is a lot of fun.
So I've just always, if there's something. New to learn,
I want to see. What'S the value in it, right?
And grappling is really valuable. It's
just not an efficient way to. Solve problems, especially when you get in the big
world. What do you mean? What do you mean? Well,
so say what we call everybody. Thinks
jujitsu now they think Brazilian Jiu. Jitsu, which is the Ne Waza and Katame
Waza of Jiu Jitsu ground grappling techniques from Jiu Jitsu
styles. It's more, it's more the ground grappling part of
modern judo because you've taken out all the
stri. All the other things that are involved in all that. Because you know,
kenjutsu is the omote, right? And if kenjutsu
is the omote in Jiu Jitsu's order. So a lot of those things
happened. When you had swords in the moment. You cut close
together or something, you had to do something. But it couldn't be, you know,
it. Couldn'T be grabbing somebody, rolling around, you. Know, when
they're carrying multiple other tools. You've got multiple other opponents.
Right. That doesn't mean it's not. Doesn't have value. I start.
You're avoiding going to the ground. You got your swords locked up. You
can't just roll the. Yeah, so. So all kinds of little stripes,
all. Kinds of little floor. All kinds of things meet up that part.
Right. So you take all of that stuff out.
Even some of the reverse hand techniques, you know, like from. I could do jitsu
and stuff like that. And then the catching horse and a couple things. Oh, no,
that's. You can't do that. Okay. I just want to see if it work. Right.
But you know, that doesn't mean it. Doesn'T have value because the only way you
could actually get a lot of time and be used to people and. Relaxing and
seeing things is if there's not a lot of consequence.
It's just that now people start thinking. That that's something used.
I mean, it's even taught at some of the special operations
places here. Like that's. And it's not how to solve problems there.
So the reason I spent time going out there was because there was
people out there that realized that this is not a solution for us in
the environments that we're in. So those, those
words Japanese are really the Germans. I always say the Germans are the
oriental race. Their trains are so much on time. If your train's
45 second early, don't get on it. It's not your train.
I know. I was two stops when I realized. This isn't my
train. Right. I had to go back.
But their languages are not as specific with their language where
German based English is. You know, we're very precise, much more precise.
So you know, bunjutsu, they. They kind of brush terms
back and. Forth quite a bit. So, you know, modern jiu
jitsu is a doe art, basically. Okay. You know,
dough meaning art, not the combative. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean.
It doesn't mean war in that sense way. Right.
Versus jutsu. But they, they blur it a lot themselves. So I'm not.
Not Chris. I'm sure that was called, you know, jiu jitsu at the time,
but it's just that taken out all kinds of stuff and,
you know, and the operating system has changed
enormously as well because you now have little point system and you
have time. So even the Gracies in the early days,
those things might take 20 minutes. Yeah, right. You know, you went
until somebody Got a submission. Otherwise it's like, what's the big
deal? So more of a chess match than a death match in
that way, for. That kind of stuff. Right. In
Dixon, when you fight, you know. You just have a couple of guys
with them. So you keep people away. Well, you can't always do that.
If they have tools, that changes things a lot. I mean, there's so many factors
that. Come involved in that. And so, you know,
Mars is, I. Would say Mars is the God of war. War is about killing
people and breaking shit. It's done with tools, arts, ability, your
opponent without having them do it to you.
So going back and forth like a. Firefight, there's no art, There might be skill,
right? So some of the guys I worked. With, the art, they're just
hunting down. And probably one to one, they killed.
That small group of men, killed way. More people than any of the presence.
Patrols or any of that kind of stuff did. Most time those guys get in
firefight, cast or indirect fire, come in and close
air support and really help with the
situation. Shall we say those guys
hunted. They go in, they hunt. That's all they do for the time they're there.
And they go from, this is not. Yeah,
they'll go. If they'll hit a target and then they'll
get the info and hit another one, and then another one, maybe two or three
more in the night. So they're not working with engagement. Nobody
knows ahead of time what they're doing, you know, and so they're catching
everybody by surprise. Right? I mean, your job is
to take. Out specific people, it's not to get in. Right, right. So.
So when you're looking at the highest level samurai, very
much like that, except you'll see each other.
Right. So what you're doing is
you're managing yourself in a completely different way
than like the way I used to win fights
a long time ago. Busted hands and
$10,600 worth of teeth. A couple of years ago I didn't. Put them all back,
but I had. To put enough of them back so I could teeth properly. You
know, I can't do, unfortunately, I can't do anything about the brain cells. So.
But yeah, it's. It's not
leverage based, not strength based. You.
And people say, well, where, where do. You get the energy and stuff like striking
Yukal? Robco is very good at this, by the way. By the way, Systemo is
very interesting for me. Systema. Russian system. Yeah,
yeah, systema. And I see a lot of people. Saying, oh, they Blow it off.
But, you know, I've been under that fist, you know, I've got pictures of me
all bruised up and everything. I, I went to Russia,
you know, 9, 11, you know, I'm
supposed to be, you're supposed to be there that month, but you had to be
a couple more months. You couldn't get a thing. So I literally,
I'd seen a thing at Toby Threadbills in Texas.
They had this video, this Russian guy, you know, doing stuff
and kind of making fun of it. And I'm like looking at it and I'm
thinking, where'd the Russians get this? After about 10 minutes ago, no,
guys, this guy's good. And I think they're really good. So I gotta find this
guy. So, so I ended up going up. To Toronto and then
going to Russia times and in training
with them. And, and it's just a very,
very different operating system. It's really odd to me that you get. The
only thing that makes it make sense is they're both sword based arts.
Really. Systema system is a sword based art. I've got pictures
of me, you know, with sailor's nisha knight down in his basement.
Right. Let me tell you my, my impression just from the videos I've
seen online, it looks like magic. And, and, and to me, you
know, I wanted to get back to this engagement and reciprocity concept.
To me that looks like the ultimate expression of that. But,
but I also know that it's used and that people like
yourself, like actually have learned to
functionalize it and, and use it.
Tell me, let, let's go to the engagement and reciprocity
concept and break it out. Okay, different.
So, so there's a fundamental concept in high level tendency called uto
nashi no kata. Okay. And that means silent
victory. No touching the blades. Okay, so here
we are. You've got some nice background. Here we are. My job
is to cut you down without touching your blade or having touch mine
or if we do, it's in the same movement called Kubrick.
No, no, no. Separation between
packing, defense. Okay, so how are
you going to do that? Right? You guys good at lots of, you know, all
this and, but this is a
completely different thing. I can't use that operating system.
So how can I hide movement? Right? Because
the origin of movement and stuff, including the origin in your
mind, especially. Where your mind is, can be perceptible to people.
Right? Well, how do you hide that? Okay, well, first
you have to start turning all that flexing and all that stuff
off and that Is a process, right?
And so I've sometimes played. Actually one of my students
brought this. In my dojo in California, which is two blocks from the beach, right
on the surfer. And it was, it was from a movie. I can't remember the
name of it. But guy is kind of wanted to go
surfing. And so it's this guy who called himself Kunu,
right? And he's like, don't, don't do anything. Don't do
it. Don't try to surf, right? That's a whole little monologue
on time. Because I'm constantly telling, no, you can't do that. You can't flex muscle,
do this. If I'm raising this up, I can't use these muscles in
the process, right? And you literally get to where like if
someone's. If I'm holding the hand out like
this, right, you can feel if I. If I'm using my
anterior belt and. Trying to do that. If I don't, instead of the
pressure. Going here to here into your base. It ticks you,
right? And so. And it's like a push
versus a reach. If I push, do all that kind of stuff,
if I flex, right? It goes to your feet. And so
now we have a contest. If I reach, it doesn't go to your feet and
you can't access them and remove, right? And
why was that important? When I cut you with the sword. I need to called
Kuyushi. I need to gather unbalance you with the cut.
Because if I don't and we're both. Moving
well, what are the chances of me getting stabbed? Those swords
do a lot of damage fast. Didn't have lifelight blood.
Like, you know, you might, you might. Bleed out slower than the other guy.
But, but, but the bottom line is so. Well, so how do you
do that? Because so that you can hold different study
for them. It's like punching when people see Misha
hardly knew. I can tell you. And I've got pictures. First day in Russia, I'm
bruised all up, right? And it's like
because, because you're using. A
different operating system. So at this point, when I'm teaching students, you've got your fear
based fight flight and against the operating system.
Then you've got what I call a faith based operating system.
Okay. So we're actually all living by faith. Every moment of every day.
Even you, Dick Dawkins. Your logic is
there's a thing that came on who's called himself a cultural Christian. He was lamenting
what was happening and everything. And I'm like Get a podcast out of
Austrian Obseania. Your logic here is as bad as your science, right?
Anyway, so.
You have gravity. And you have
mass. And any movement
then is going to. Mean there's energy there. I don't have to
flex to make it happen. On the contrary, if I flex, I can take
away. So like in my garage, I have my workout stuff in my garage. I've
got a 100 pound kettlebell. You know, I can actually let it go
and bend down, touch the floor faster than it can get there.
But when that hits the ground, £100 like that, you're thinking, I don't drop it
on my concrete in my garage. I think it'll crack the concrete,
right? Well, what if you could take and use velocity
and use that mass instead of all the flexing, pushing, you know,
Bubble used to kick us in the calf. So that's your punching muscle
and you can just let that go like that. And it all transferred
all that energy, right? Well, oh, that's, that's
a huge amount of energy, right? And so once you
feel that, you. Realize, man, how do you get, how do you get to be
able to do that? Well, you have to quit doing. You have to quit
doing it in the sense of I've got to do it. And
it's the same with the cut. It's the same with all of that stuff, right?
And so, so and, and
the more I process all figures how it works. And everything
when I'm teaching. Ky told me this years and years
ago. He said o. His grandfather, he said,
grandfather got faster as he got older.
Well, I'm, I'm taking less
time now that I'm older, you know, and I'm closing in on 80
year, right. I'm not a young person, so,
so but because I'm not using all of
the reflexes and stuff to do that, it's a different
connection. And when you actually tie everything into. Your
center of movement, right? You actually tie
everything into your center of movement. And all you have to do is. Move that
like maybe back three inches. Hit back three inches and this
takes place, right? Well, there's none of you doing any of that.
There's no little things happening. It's like it's all connected
as this rotates. This rotates. I don't rotate it
separately. So you spend all this time taking away things that actually got
in the way. What does that or what? Yeah, yeah.
Psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, right. You know, I keep looking at
that guy in the mirror, you don't listen that you're the problem,
I mean that's. The same in all sort of creative pursuits. Just eliminating
the stuff that's not getting. Yourself out of the way. All of your
stuff, Right. All of your, all your fear based stuff.
Because the fight flight is a fear based mechanism.
Right. And now can you use it? Sure. Is it best? No.
The more you use it, especially in some
situations, the more feedback you get as well,
more ptsd, you're going to end up with some stuff as well. So is this
where the faith part comes in? You mentioned faith based operations. So
we'll start with just the physical faith, right.
I mean if I pick up a knife, imagine you just
having a knife laying around and I let go of it. Do you believe
it's going to drop or do you know it's going to drop? Yeah, I know
it's going to drop. Okay. And you even know why?
Because of gravity. But we don't even know what gravity is.
We don't know what gravity is. Science, it doesn't know what gravity is. We know
it does, but we know it is. Yeah. Okay. And so
you know, oxygen transfer, how often do you wake from the near life form?
What if oxygen transfer didn't take place? But I mean, think about
it. Right? Right. But you know, this special little place.
That has these things like this that we can. All of this,
it's like you don't. Even think about it, but yet that's how it is. So
this is like that realizing one, I weigh 200 and
some pounds. And you know, if I could just.
Release half of that with a little. Bit of
velocity, certainly I can have. More velocity than drop my
100 pound. Kettlebell and can let it transfer.
Right. Well, that's a whole nother thing altogether. And the
feeling of the people, you. Know, I'll reach out and pop in. I'll move somebody
back feet, right. And it's like fool. But it doesn't look like much.
And it's not. Bruce Lee, he was pushing with his calf. He was an athlete.
He didn't understand this stuff. Okay. It's a completely different
thing. I can do it with one leg, if you will. It doesn't matter because
you're allowing all. Of that to happen and still kind of make it happen.
Okay. And so, and this isn't a really.
Good analogy, but if you're shooting, if you're, if you're trying to make that. Gun
work, it's not going to be very accurate. You've got to let it
work. You got to ride the recoil. Even if it's really rapid. Got to manage
the trigger and the trigger reset. Right. All of these things. And the
calmer you can be. Right. The better you are.
And so and, and the no thinking part. We talked
about that. It's not that there is a stuff. Going through your mind, but it's
not connected to what you're doing. My warrior son say you think
in. That environment you're dead. And another one of my friends who is a sergeant
major, he's getting out as well. Got his stinger circus
cross. Probably should have been a medal of Honor. It may even get
so. But he's coming through a gate in
Afghanistan years ago. Right. And,
and so there's big mud wall. I don't know if you've ever seen big mud
walled compounds. So we call those things fatal funnels
because you're only coming through one place. Right. So anybody
inside knows you've got to. So he breaches that and
there's three guys up on in
three seconds. But 23 rounds on him. All sent. All.
No, no automatic fire. Eight. Eight. Slight hesitation with in
children. Seven. Okay. Just like that.
And it's like what was going on in his brain. He's a close friend.
It's going on in his brain. Takes way longer
to tell than what he actually did. You can tell you where every bullet. Hit
in the process. Right. And so
you get into that state and these are special people. So
when I was out there for. The Distinguished Service Cross, you years ago.
They'D had 50 people make it through. They call it the long walk.
Right. That's. That's the physical selection. I think they took three
after the psycho. Oh this is this Delta. Delta Force.
Something, something like that. I'm not going to use that word myself.
I've heard of this long walk though. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of that
information's out there. But again everything else. So. Okay.
But you guys know. Okay. So I mean, I mean and then. You'Ve got
six months of OTC operating training course and you can still fail that.
So you think they never have full. Group of people which isn't very
many. Right. So we're, we're talking about very, very,
very special people. So.
But we were at the Ring actually. A couple years ago and said no. I
think I've shot a million rounds.
Well, practice, practice, practice. Right. Yes. Yeah. So.
But anyway, so the point of the moment of this, I can't be
thinking. But yet by not thinking, like not
having tension, I become so much more aware
of all the things that I. Can'T Be when my brain's going.
So the calmer I get it. So the Japanese have a couple words for
that. One is
water. So kokoro's like spirit, but it's like, like still water,
like a mirror, right. The other one is
mushin. No mind, no thinking, conscious mind at
that point. Like you've been hunting, you know. And
I'm not talking about priest dance, that's harvesting.
Yeah, yeah. Hunting is when you're on the ground. With the animals, right?
And especially depending on where you are, stingers, places, you know, you got to be
like quiet, quiet. Open your mouth a little something that you're hearing
better. You got to get quiet, quiet. When you move, you got to be. Really
careful because then that movement is. Going to let them know what's happening, right?
So the quieter I am, the more aware I
become. Well, now you're in situations you
want that same type of. Because you're going to tell me all kinds
of things that I can hear. If I'm
going through my own stuff, I can't hear,
right. I've got too much background
noise going. On that I can't hear or see. Kuro Sensor
is really good at this. And so when I'm going with my senior students, whether
I'm the uchidachi or the shidachi. So the shidachi is doing the
Ryuha's technique and the Uchidachi is providing an attack.
And usually it's a set attack, but later on changing from the beginning.
Well, I went on either side, doesn't matter, right?
And many times I'll move before they move. But
they've already made the decision, so they're caught, right?
Because as you get more and more, you don't realize what you're telling.
Right? And so as you get clearer and. Clearer and you're doing
less and less in every way, shape and form.
Right? Well, you know when to move, right? Well, I was
going to say this concept is something I'm instilling in my 15
year old daughter who I'm teaching how to drive. And when you're driving on
the highway, you can sense micro movements from other cars. It's like you know
what they're going to do before they do it. I'm just going through that with
grandfather. Okay. So grandson now he's.
Now he's out. He's got some female, he's got his own. But, but,
but we were coming back, I was teaching in Asheville, Ashe role.
And so, so coming up I said, what's wrong with that car?
I said, look at that. Okay. And so sure enough, we pull up.
Right. I said this is a lethal environment.
Right. Half these people are barely competent. If they're paying attention.
Yeah. And they're not these days. A whole lot of them are not. Paying any
attention at all. Some of my business going through your head. So you've got to
treat all of this and so you have to read them. Right. Like
that family just got killed by the trucker coming through the stop sign. You
know, I've got a granddaughter coming up and I'm going to start teaching her pretty
soon. Right. And so it's like stop signs and stop lights
do not stop cars. Right. They're a suggestion.
So so constantly looking and looking before you even get
to the intersection. Right. Because you want to know what's the
situation on. What's the situation on the ground. It's like when people say, well,
what. What would you do if somebody did this? I go, what's the context?
What do you mean? So how's it day and night? Is it hot or cold?
Is it wet or dry? Are we in an elevator or. Yeah,
I mean, what. Because there is no answer like that.
This context. Is everything a great thing for your daughter?
Not hard, not easy to see. You don't have to let the situation happen.
Charlotte, on the train. Yes. Yeah. Right.
Now, Zach guy, should he have been out? Nope.
You and I would have picked him up as soon as you walked on that
train. Right. She did not take responsibility
for any of it. She was in her own little world and
completely right. And so does that make
it right or in? No, but the personal responsibility part,
there's. No would be, should be, could be world. If you're not paying attention,
you're going. To pay the price. Whatever that happens to be. You have to be
too long, you get sunb. Right. Whatever it happens to be. No
doubt she was breathing a sigh of relief, living in the United States, getting away
from the war in Ukraine. But that sigh of, you know,
but let me ask you this. Sure. So as I mentioned up front,
you've taught, you've taught to a lot of people
these kind of fighting, different ways to approach
close quarters combat. Some are very, very special, but I can't imagine
all of them are. How do you. In a short time, they don't have a
lot of time to learn this. Yeah. So. So that, how do you instill this?
There's the dilemma. And so I, I start with things
like you're managing three factors, distance and
relationship time. Okay.
So distance depends on what, what Environment, what
tools, but we're still managing those. Things, whether we're doing
the entry, whatever. It has to do, right? And so
when we're doing. And you talk about this last one. If,
if, if a person's reaching, pushing, shoving, stabbing or hitting,
right? They're. They're looking with one direction and they're. Coming off of the base of
a triangle. Okay. Well, if you're
coming off this basic. Triangle, I release my left hip a little bit.
I can pass you right by me. You're still moving,
right. It's not a block. And I have an opportunity in there to do
something. Right. Whether it's a takedown, whether it's a
strike, whether it's a stab, whether. Whatever it happens to be. Okay?
And so what you start learning to. Do is, and I call
it field geometry, but don't look it up. They'll talk about hydraulics.
People say, well, but this is changing. Well, yes, but I can perceive the change
and I just release. And all I have to do is. Release my body here
and it changes the relationship between. So I start
with that. Right? Because the person's going to give you.
Opportunity if you just let them. So we be very kind
and let. Them have their opportunity before we show them the error
of their ways. And so, you know, with swords, it's the
same thing. We talk about the SATs. You can't be banging. You can't
be banging and cracking together. I mean, everybody tries their way. Western
surgeon, you have this type of. Way of trying to, you know, forge and
heat trade. Japanese had their particular way of forging. Hate trading and
doing stuff. But the bottom line is long, thin. Pieces of hard sphere, chip,
crack and brick. Yep. Start cracking them against each other, and.
You'Re going to chip, crack and break the sword. And you can read, like, Japanese
stuff. You can read. Guys always a fight at the Terra Dia. The terra in
one guy, sword broke. And he was killed. Right. Bad idea to be in a
sword fight with a sword that's, you know, looks good in the movies, doesn't work
very well. Right. Unless the script gets written out first.
So. So you can't be doing that. But also,
the longer you take to. Serenity, the more that happens,
the more. Time and the more movement, the
entropy. Starts climbing like nobody's business. Right. If there's
not much time and not. Much that you did, it's pretty easy to manage and
predict an outcome. The more that it's going, the less. You can do that.
Now get in situations where the situation is
chaotic and you've got to just surf the waves of chaos and be able to
pick those things out, which is right. A surfer does. Right.
You got oceans out there. It's not, it's not chaotic anymore. Usually by the time
it gets there, depending, but you're just, you're just watching and
reading that particular situation, given all the factors and, and using
that in a moment. And so you have to be able. To not try to
control everything, but flow through there in the process and.
Be able to adapt and respond. Because you don't
know. I spend, when I go to the range, I spend time.
I'll shoot right handed, right. Like maybe I'm just doing plates for a while.
So I'll go right handed, right eye. And I'll switch and I'll go left. Handed,
left eye, right, right hand, left, left hand and I'll switch back and
forth. I'll take the left hand this way and the right hand this way. Then
maybe one handed, flashlight and stuff so I can shoot. So if I come up
left eye or right eye, it automatically goes to that without me having to close
my eyes. Now that took training. Yeah, right.
But a long time ago.
I'm getting old. Learning that
cornering right handed on left handed cornering is not a good idea.
There's no way that you can do that as
efficiently as you can switch. There's just no way. You
give them an eyeball on a barrel that's almost nothing. You give them, you
know, to a third of your upper body and they can see you coming around
before it happens. Right. And especially in
situations where the walls. Won'T stop the bullets. And that's a
whole lot of situations. Yeah, most situations, my
house, they won't stop the bullets. Right. Now you get in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's
places where a lot of those things stop bullets. But our houses don't tend to
stop bullets. Yeah, right. And so when I'm
doing that, it's not only that, you know, I don't want to be in target.
I don't want you to see anything. Until I've got everything on
them. Right. By the time they see me, I'm already, I'm already on the trigger
because my. It's a barrel on an eyeball. Right. Or light
barrel and eyeball. And so,
so what, what you're doing. With all of this is you're the. Same with the
sword. There's going to be a path of travel. I can perceive it.
What's the timing of me perceiving it and making it so that you
can't see that I'm not in the lineup for the cut, but
he's in mine, okay? And I think we did this a little
bit last time. So you move a hand like this towards the person. You
need a hand like this towards the person in the moment, they can't see the
difference. One, when you're moving from out here.
Okay, that's easily seen, and that path of travel is easily blocked.
You move from back here. So I'm moving away from my. I'm literally flexing my
rhomboids moment. So right now, when I'm sitting here, I'm
flexing my rhomboids, I'm moving my scapula, left scapula,
right scapula, moving them up the levator. Scapula, the muscle
tattoo top. Okay? And you teach yourself. You teach
yourself how to do this. Did you ever read Dune? No. My wife is a
huge fan of. The books, but read Dune. I told you last time to read
Gates of Fire. Did you end up reading it? No, I didn't. Oh, you got
to listen at the building.
Bigfoot has had a huge impact on. Those guys and Dune.
So it's funny because at the football. Game the other day, one of the. Guys,
he's a physical therapist, really thick
guy, and he had tattoos on his arm. And I said,
oh, that's Tengguar. He goes, right. So Tengwa is the
elvish language, the elvish writing script for Quenya
and Sindaran. Sindarin, right?
He says, yeah, but it's. But it's a Bene Gesserit saying,
right? That comes from. That comes from.
And so I said, so I teach the weirding way of fighting.
He's like, okay. So I had him grab me,
right? And I said, you know, strong guy,
right? Really fit. So I had him grab
me, and. I just turn my hand over. You can't prevent it. Now
if I tense and start flexing, he can stop me.
Or we have a wrestling mat. I'm a good wrestler, but
I get tired really fast. So if you can hang on for. Not, that
doesn't work the same anymore. So you get all kinds of these
things. If I don't use any muscle, I literally feel like
all this is empty and I can move. The person can't stop me.
As soon as I tense even a little bit. Now we have a. Now we
have a fight. Now I've got to try to use strengthening leverage. Okay?
It took time to realize how that. Worked, but
that's what they're using with. The sword so the personal cut down
and you go like that, and their. Sword goes right past you and you right
when you cut them. And yet I never knock their sword. Away sideways at
all. Yeah. Literally letting them have
what they want. And I'm taking the space that they. Left just as they left
it. The moment they left it. I've already taken that space.
And so they'll be cutting like this. And they'll be doing just like that.
Okay. And so that is. That is a
fundamental part that you. Can start teaching fairly early. So I'll have the
kids or. Or the. Or the. Whoever I'm doing. Right.
Okay. The person's. Person's reaching to grab like this, and you
just reach in parallel. What's happening?
Don't. Don't push sideways. When I'm looking for contact, all you have to do is
take like this elbow's got to go through this space. If it can go
through that space, if it can't go through that space at a mission.
Is this different from intercepting, fist or. Interception
in that sense? Yes. Okay. Because ultimately I won't even touch you
eventually. Okay. I won't even touch it because
I'm managing a relationship more than I'm trying to block or deflect.
Okay. So as I move, I also may. Not
be where you think I am. But I can't be doing
it by any movements that the eye can see.
Right. But, you know, Tacitus flavors Forgettis
Renatus and his David Militarai. You know, in every battle, after all,
the eye is fooled first. Okay.
So fooling the eye, right, Meant fooling the
grasp, fooling any contact. Right.
And so. So I can get basics down with people,
because if you've got a small. Knife, what I want is if the person's coming
in, doing whatever, I want. To come right through, and I want. To go to
places that matter. I want to just stab them or something. Right. I want to
go to places that. That. That matter in the moment.
Right. We all saw that stabbing in the. In.
That was in Perth. It was in Queensland. Is
it Melbourne? Anyway, in Australia. I can't remember now, but
then two groups of guys going back and forth. And one of them had a
knife and going back and forth. Did you see that one? I'm not sure if
I. If I know this one. I see a lot of stabbing videos. Yeah. I'm
not sure. Yeah. So it's a bunch of guys, and. One of them has knife
on one side, one on the other. He's a pretty good guy here.
And force comes Up. Everybody backs off. But the one guy, he's literally taking. This
knife and it's not real big, but it's big enough.
He's swinging at people, right? And he's. And he's aiming,
he's aiming for, for a deadly spot.
And if you can see, if not. Let me know and
I'll find it. I'll take that. I'm sure I have it.
So they're going back and forth a little bit, all this kind of
stupid stuff, right? And so the second time they closed. The big guy came up
like the first time, and everybody backed away because he's big. Gets him right on
the throat. Yeah, Hit him right here. And it took him a second to
realize it. And then he just drops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took him a
few steps, you know, And I call this the golden crime
because apexy, the lung blooded artery. Juggler,
the brachial plexus, I mean, it's all.
You'll get a high return on your. Investment for the risk that you took.
All right, let me, let me ask you this just because we have about 10
minutes or a little bit more left here. But I want to get to this,
to the concept of escalation of force. We live in
troubled times. We have a lot of conflict, just kind of
running rampant. What is a good way to think about
how and when to escalate force with some random person on
the street? Okay, so first of all,
mindset training. So first of all, I leave the house with the
highest level of force I can carry. So for me, every day I've got a
Glock 43. You know, I've got 16 rounds in. That, a 15 round backup
magazine. I've got four and a half inch blade,
designer CRKT HC4 knife here.
I've got one of these here
in the other pocket. So I mean four and a half inch. This is the
operator one. It actually has a hook because my. Warrior son, you put this on
is otonashi. So he could just draw it in one motion.
Have a flipper version blackened as well.
But this actually has Wolm's blade design on it. This is dark, there's nothing
on it. Just. Just because some people need
anonymity. But anyway, so I've got that, I've got two flashlights,
I've got a Surefire
Pro 2 15, 15, 100 lumens,
35, 35,000 candela, right?
And then I've got another one, 400 lumen, one that fits on
my keychain. The stockbride big. And so When I. And I've
got. I've got a tourniquet in my pocket. Wear cargo pants most of the time,
got a tourniquet. That's just the stuff on me. Okay. And so
that means I have tools, right? And so. And I think
having tools makes you more aware right now, my
car, I've. Got all kinds of much more medical stuff. I've got a whole lot
more stuff. I've got a board expedition. It's like, it's set up also to be.
Right. Like, hit a deer at 50 miles an hour and not hurt the car,
right? So. So. Well, because there's a lot of woods. And a
lot of deer around here. And so the first thing is the mindset before you
leave the house. Am I prepared? Where am I going? Where am I going
there? Who am I going with? Right? One on one could be more than
two, or one on one can be less than one. Yeah,
okay. And I've seen that. You know,
I think I told you I was. It was actually. Oh, there was
a guy's name. Ah. I was up in Hollywood,
Fred Astaire's old house. And so there was a wealthy guy
there, and he had a daughter, and he wanted me to come teach a class.
Actually had to put him out of the class and make him quiet because
she was telling me some stuff that she needed to tell him. He was like,
what? Quiet? It's my class.
Right? But she had a situation where.
She. Led party, and she And a girlfriend called a
cab. The cab came, wasn't the cab company. So she said, this
isn't. This isn't our cabinet. Bill goes, oh, it'll be fine. Right? So they get
in, right? And she's not feeling comfortable. She's like, I want to get off of
the house. And he goes, no, no, it's fine. Don't worry about
it. You know? And so the girl gets out and. The guy
goes, yeah, you're coming over. And she's like, freaking out. So she finally
gets somebody on her phone. So he drops her. I know what you're doing, right?
So I'm talking to her, and she had a couple other instances. I said,
darling, you need to understand that you don't have
friends. These people aren't concerned about you.
So that's the first thing when you're out there with these people.
You know, she's uncomfortable. And you're not saying, hey, I can walk in my house.
Right? You don't have friends. I live in a completely different area. I live in
such a great bubble that it's another story. And so
you need to understand, who am I going with? Where are we going? You know
what? It's backup plan. And so especially young women,
right? You see, more and more of these. Guys are letting out that young girl
was just killed again, in South Carolina. Right? South
Carolina, you know, and they're letting these people out over and over,
right? This isn't a be nice to people thing. Those people are in prison for
a reason, right? And so. And so
one. So you want to read all of that? Where you going?
Never walk past a dark hole clear with your light or something.
I've got a couple videos on that up on YouTube that when
I was doing some TV stuff, right? And so you
always clear a black hole. Don't go by them. Don't walk up to them.
Don't walk up to your house of bushes. You can. There's a woman in
Seattle and guy. Was in the bushes and followed her into. You
know, that. That happened there as well. And
so. So you got to think about all the things. Have these tweets on
you, right? You have to have them on you.
And ladies are the worst for that
right Now. Part of it is because it makes them afraid, and then they don't
want to be prepared. And that's why, like
Pen. Because Pen always carrying knives, right? Pen actually
for breaking contact. His personal offense is a breaking contact thing,
right? This will actually work better in the night because it hurts a whole lot
more, right? It hurts a whole lot more. You know, I. I
did the key, you know, the whole bit, because I've used them before. It's just
I bent one so bad, I almost could drive away. So I didn't. Maybe I
should disobey. You should design something that anyway. But
so you have your tools with you, right? Don't let people
get close. You don't let them talk you into things, right? Including
your friends. That might be the bigger thing.
And so, you know, and just think. About when I leave my house,
you know, I'm in a different world. You're on defcon, right?
Say Sunday afternoon in your house. So fairy. Everything's great. DEFCON
port. You work your way. As soon as you get in your car, it's at
least defcon. Get out of your car downtown someplace,
you know, especially at night. Now you're in DEFCON 2 potentially, right?
You know, and then, you know, then it's like, oh, these, this, you
know. Now I'm starting to access tools or. Have them in my hands,
right? With the ladies, it has to be it can't be stuck in their
purse. You know, I always ask like, how do you guys find things in your
purse like this, right? Can't be that,
right? So you know the sure Fire stiletto, just the regular
one's not that expensive. It's. And it's, it's not
plastic, but you know, some type of thing. So it's, it's enough that they could.
Slip it inside their pants because they always wear. I'm. I'm wearing stuff to carry
what I want, right? We're not going to do that. You know,
some of the, some. So to have the flashlight, that's the most important thing
besides this having a. Tool like that first and
foremost. Okay. So even on that train, if that. Guy
would have stood up and she would have been watched, she could have hit him
with the light and hit him with a pen or something, right? Because even
that lit train, that's 600 lumens, that's enough in the moment,
right, to help so those things. And again,
as you carry stuff and it just automatically
raises your deft on your defense condition more prepared,
right? Because you're recognizing yourself that when you go out
it's potentially dangerous. Another one, I
pulled this video off of YouTube Years and years ago. First time I
was in Africa I had lunch with this guy, this far guide
and he gave me a book. I gave him one of my.
Which is interesting because I didn't know this story at the time,
but in 99 he was getting. Taking some
people up into the Buwemi. Formless forest in
Uganda to see mountain gorillas and
interhamway. The Hutu death squads from
Rwanda had. Came through early in the morning and they took all the English
speaking people. And separated and took them up into the forest,
right? So it's a really well done documentary
and I use it as who lives, who dies and why?
Because people that died actually made the decision
themselves. And they had a couple
one, his was a couple and they were the strong power couple from Seattle, I
think Portland. And just loved and just watched
them come apart. Especially him as a man not able to
handle the stress of it, the process,
the fear. And so things like that are really
good. So I had one of, one of my friends, he's actually a helicopter pilot,
his wife was there and she got halfway through, she went, went outside the
dojo. This one, that's the neatest one, had my dojo there. I walked out, I
said so, so what's the problem? She said, I just kept watching stuff, you know,
after some stuff in College. I just kept watching. I go, okay. She said, got
kids, right? I knew she did. Said, so if you can't handle what's. Going to
happen to them. And so a few days later, Thursday class, he comes in,
he goes, what'd you do? She said she's like dialed. She'd like to
text everything first. She's like, he's not about you,
mom. You want to get past that stuff. You're a dad, right? Yep.
Yep. All of a sudden the rules change. So.
So, you know, just, just the personal responsibility part. And even thinking,
hey, you could save your friends, you know, they're gonna do something
stupid. It's like, yeah, let's not do that. Right? You can read about in the
paper. In the morning when somebody else made that choice. Not an easy
thing, dad. I know. I went through it. I had boys, though. So my thing
was, yeah, that young lady's gonna get home, same condition. She
left the house. If I heard from somebody's dad, you're. In more trouble for me
than you are from him. Right? Yeah. Having. Having girls is,
you know, they've got great heads on their shoulder. They. They have a mother who's
very extremely security minded. This whole house is.
But I can't say it doesn't worry me. It does.
And part of it is again, making choices. So this is for Christopher Miles.
Want to drive? So we drop him off in the costa. The party
in the house we dropped him off in. Mom's like, we're really cool parents.
Don't worry. We're really cool. And this and that, right? And I can see as
I'm driving, we're driving home. My wife's stewing out a little bit. She leads people
better than a ciarant interrogatives I've worked with, right? You walk in
the front door, she. Goes, we're going back. I'm not.
So we drive all the way back to the party. He's fishing, walking these two
girls. I slowed down like, so what's up? These two
girls had left the party, go down where there were older guys with drugs and
alcohol. And Christopher had gone down,
bring him back. Right now my wife's
like 5 to 100ft, very athletic, but tiny, right? But
she's got her brother's blood, right. He's one of the toughest guys.
And she's like. And said, no, we're not going in the house. They just take
him home. Take the girls back home. Right? But the
ability to read stuff like that or have. Have the male
that's going to Be a man. Right. Watch out for your daughter
in the process. Yeah. And make sure that she gets home.
That she gets home okay. That's a big choice when you have
daughters. Boys, I trained them. They. They had. They had skills
and they had a responsibility. And that responsibility was that young lady just need to
be taken care of. Once you. When you're out on a date with her, that's
your. That's your responsibility. Yeah, it was just. So Christopher went down,
got those two girls, and so I was very proud. Of them in the process.
Absolutely. And one of the things that I've
trained my girls out of as much as I can so far is
people pleasing and trying not to offend people. We are not
a. We are not a house that worries much about offending people, which is great.
But, you know, a lot of people default to
don't offend, be polite. And being polite is always important. Yes.
But, yes, it's different from being a pushover. And. Yeah, so. So
that's. That's an interesting thing. You know, I live. I live in a place,
and again. I live in a bubble here. Kids are great. Most of them are
homeschooled, really capable, very polite. Ma', am,
sir. This. Right. The whole bit. But they're also.
They're also perceptive kids who need people. Right.
And so being polite is one thing. Reading people
and understanding is another. Yeah. My wife, because
her dad died in. The middle of the night when she. Was 10, she was
a latchkey kid out of the house at 15, you
know. Right. She. Because she could read
people like nobody. I mean, literally CIA interpretive. She
could read people like nobody's business. But, you know, you want to gain
that. It's one thing to be polite. It's another
to be. To know when you know,
to do that. So. Yeah. And again, reading people.
Oh, you're just judging. Judgment's different. Judgment's God's. God's
responsibility. Discernment. Yes. We're. We're leading people.
That guy in the. On. On that bus, on that. On that
train, right away, boom. Bad. Some bad going on
there. That guy, seriously dangerous. Right. Walking
with one of my female students, one of my instructors in Germany, where she
lives in Cologne, cold, and just pointing out, group of
young males, not German, don't walk by, there's a single
female at night. Yep. People and say, oh, well, listen, Muslims. Are a problem,
and they're a big problem with women. Huge problem.
Right. And so listen, you read that. You read the handwriting on the young males
are potentially problem males. Right?
You need to read that across the street. Don't put yourself in those positions. The
best way. Don't put yourself in that position. Absolutely right. Especially that
in Cologne. It's a huge issue. Yes. We're
up against our hour. I want to thank going on, but
for those of you who are patrons of this show, we're going to continue this
conversation. I feel like this could go on for. For days and days.
You're. You're fascinating and you're a wealth of knowledge.
Thank you so much for coming on. It's been awesome talking with you. Thank you
for having me. Good seeing you again. And I'll
probably take a look through the comments if people have questions.
Know I don't have as much time. This way anymore, but I have a little
bit more this way, so. So. So
I'll see if I can help. Out if people have questions I can help with.
Outstanding. Thank you so much, sir. Yes, absolutely. Do you
carry multiple knives? Then overthink which one to use when an actual
cutting chore pops up. You're a knife junkie of the first
order. There he goes. Ladies and gentlemen, James Williams.
Man alive. I love talking to this man, and
sometimes at some points, I'm just barely holding on because I feel like
a lot of this stuff has to be seen in person or demonstrated on you.
Heaven forbid. But it was great talk with him. I
strongly urge you to become a patron or a gentleman
junkie and listen to the rest of this conversation and all
the conversations we have here on this show. They keep going
and it's. It's always a great listen. All right. For Jim working his
magic behind the switcher, I'm Bob DiMarco saying until next time, don't
take dull for an answer. Thanks for listening to the Knife Junkie
podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and
review@reviewthepodcast.com for show notes for today's
episode, additional resources, and to listen to past episodes, Visit our
website, thenifejunkie.com you can also watch our latest
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