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Welcome to the 5 hundredth episode of this

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podcast. That's 500 weeks or nearly 10 years

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of episodes for product managers and leaders.

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I have a very special guest to discuss

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how we have seen product innovation change over

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the last several years. What has worked and

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what has not what we're doing now. As

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a product professional, you need perspective on where

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things are headed and what is working,

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which is aided by looking at the changes

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that have occurred. So let's gain some perspective

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together from the knowledge and experience of 1

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of the most influential people in product innovation

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that's Tony A.

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Tony is the origin of jobs to be

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done I first discovered Tony when I read

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his book, what customers want using outcome driven

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innovation to create breakthrough products and services and

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a few need to see that. If you're

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on Youtube watching, that's what that book look

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like. After reading that, I promptly invited him

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to speak at the Denver Pd Chapter. This

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was back in 2006.

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And he published that book while. I was

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working on my Phd and innovation, and it

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really resonated with me So strongly on on

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my research about White pot fail. And I

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thought Tony, what was ahead of me and

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so many things. That still is what was

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so glad to find that book. He's also

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the author of the more recent book jobs

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be done, theories practice,

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which is this great book if you haven't

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seen that. Both of these should be part

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of your library, and I encourage you to

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add them if you haven't done so already.

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Tony also has 12 patents to his name.

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He began his career as a mechanical engineer

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product planner and a market researcher for Ibm

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and founded his consulting firm strategy in 10

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years later. Which has helped leading companies generate

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billions of dollars in revenue growth.

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Let's jump in and learn what has and

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has not, worked in product innovation. Also, we

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created an article format of this discussion, which

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you'll find at product mastery now dot com

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slash 500

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How can you unlock your full potential as

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a product manager.

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We're sharing the product management insights you need.

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They are based on the 7 research backed

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to knowledge areas for product mastery.

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You'll learn to create products customers love,

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Enhance your influence and elevate your career, Welcome

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to product mastery now, hosted by doctor Chart

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Mca.

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Product management professor,

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practitioner, and your guide.

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Tony, thanks for joining us.

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Chat some... Thanks so much, And congratulations on

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the 5 hundredth

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episode. It's amazing 10 years. Yeah. It keeps

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on going. My... I love the opportunity to

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give some information to the product management community.

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But frankly, I am the boy in the

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candy store, Right? That I love having these

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conversations with amazing people. And you were very

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kind you are... Were actually 1 of the

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guests in that first year.

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Long time ago to come share some information

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as well. And here again. Right? Here yes.

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How much has changed? Let's let's see. Let's

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come this get that. That's gonna be fine.

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I do wanna pull out a statement from

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this book. What customers want, which I think

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many people also call the O d book,

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outcome driven innovation.

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And in in that book, you describe the

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need for outcome driven innovation. And frankly, the

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introduction The whole book is great. The introduction

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sets the stage so very well. Not a

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lot of people read introductions. This is 1

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that I have copied several times and handed

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it out to a senior leaders because it

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really does make the case for

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why we need to think about innovation different.

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And if I may, I like to read

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just a short couple sentences and get your

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your thoughts on this is at the stage.

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You said in that introduction, it seemed to

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me that if we knew well in advance

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what criteria customers are we're going to use

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to judge a product's value.

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We could du design a product that met

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those criteria,

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and that the product would be a success.

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So take us back a little bit about

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some of the frustrations that you ran into

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about what wasn't working

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to developing products and what led to those

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insights.

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That's a great question. I I enjoyed that

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quote too, and it really changed way I

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think about, innovation. The backdrop on it is,

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I was working at Ibm at the time.

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And we were introducing a new product to

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the world called the Pc Junior, we're supposed

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to take over home computing.

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And

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what was interesting about it is the day

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after it was introduced. The headlines in the

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Wall Street Journal read, the Pc junior is

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a flop.

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And it was a flop.

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But that led me thinking about what you

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just quoted it. Right? I I wanted what

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metrics were they using to judge the value

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of our product.

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Right? Because they were saying it's a flop,

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Obviously, against some criteria. Right? And they thought,

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When I had been nice to know that

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criteria, like, a few weeks ago or 2

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years ago. Right? And because if we knew

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how they were gonna measure the value of

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our product,

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we could simply design the product around those

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metrics and we'd have a success.

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That was where that came from. Because

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clearly, people using some criteria to say, I

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like this product better than that product or

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the Pc junior is so much better than

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the apple. Right? And so they are using

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some criteria.

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We didn't know what they were. Right?

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And that was the problem. It's like, wow.

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And and the other part of that is

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if that criteria, which stable over time, that

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would be better yet.

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Because if they said, here's the criteria we're

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gonna use to judge your value of your

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product in 2 years.

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And by the way, it's gonna change every

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year. That would be as valuable. Right? So

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we have to know

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well in advance what criteria they're gonna use

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years from now

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to judge you value the product.

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That was the thinking. And

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let me down a path of trying to

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figure out

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what metrics are those?

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And do they exist, can we approach innovation

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from that perspective?

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And, of course, the answer turns out to

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be? Yes.

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And that has become your life's work since

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that time. Right? Is think figuring out how

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to do that and then helping people, helping

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organizations do that as well.

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As... So this revelation from the this flop

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of the Pc junior that this was your

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career for... I don't know how long that

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project was a a year or 2.

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It was following up the Ibm pc,

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which was a big thing for Ibm. And

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they were in the mainframe business and they

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did Pc, and then highly anticipated Pc junior.

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I would I remember those times and I

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was looking forward to that as well. What

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did you then take from that experience, then

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to say, okay. How do we actually do

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this? How did you begin to understand customers

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how they would judge products and decide on

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that criteria?

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Yeah. So I I started working in product

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planning. That was the first thing I did.

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I moved from my engineering group, and it's

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a design for manufacturing type of work on

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the Pc junior.

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And I got interested in and in just

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market research and product innovation, move to the

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product planning team and then began to

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try to figure out

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what kind of inputs will lead to success

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in the patient. That's really it.

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And so just before I did a lot

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of qualitative work on my own, but we

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hired,

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researchers to come in and do work for

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us and try to figure out what people

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wanted.

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Know And

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in same traffic as everybody else. Right? All

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solution space.

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People want this feature. People want... The conversation

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just never led to anything stable.

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Alright? But then I came across 1 question,

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a, way to ask customers

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about their needs that became pretty insightful. And

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that was simply...

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What makes product day better than product b.

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Now it the reason that works is because

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people are trying to get the jobs done

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better. Right? The buying products to get a

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job done. And if you can tell me,

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what it this about product a that got

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the job done better than product b.

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That would be useful piece of information.

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And we try to keep it out of...

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Solution space because they'd say, well, this product

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allowed me to do this faster.

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Okay. Well, this product make sure I don't

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make this mistake or this product yields a

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better result along this dimension.

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And

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after doing research, for a number of years

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and listen to these kinds of statements.

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I started to realize that we could categorize

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these

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statements into

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groups, grouping

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and say, you know, some of these need

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sound like

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product function.

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Some of these need sound like

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interfacing with the product.

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Some of these needs sound like,

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cost related buying a product,

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and slowly, this was very slow.

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It it finally evolved where I could categorize

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needs into 3 categories case.

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The functional aspects,

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the consumption aspects and the financial aspects.

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Unless was what it finally included that there's

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3 key customers,

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and there's 3 key areas of interest. Now

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back then, I didn't call it and getting

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the job done better. It was just this

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product is better along some dimension. And

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when I started going down that path, I'd

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end up with... This is when I started

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in research myself. I'd end up with 2

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300 statements that describe

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better.

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And then I'd have to organize them into

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categories.

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And I spent weeks doing this to figure

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out, well, how do they fit? What's sort

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of pattern or anything here.

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And over time, I realized that that there

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there was a pattern,

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and it usually began that there's some needs

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associate with planning the activity and then getting

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the right inputs and then organizing them and

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then

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executing the process as I said it, people

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by product sticks you process, what's the process

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execute monitor the execution. And so on, That

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that became years later in 2008, the job

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map that produced

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for harvard review.

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But I didn't call with that back then.

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And and and this really evolved. There was

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no job at upfront. There was just lots

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of statements.

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So a lot of this was really a

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can

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characterization exercise.

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Right?

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You gotta recognize sweet that there's 3 customer

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types,

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then you gotta recognize that customer type is

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00:10:07,904 --> 00:10:08,723
trying to

274
00:10:09,178 --> 00:10:12,147
get, execute their process along certain dimensions

275
00:10:12,856 --> 00:10:14,529
and so on. So the pieces started to

276
00:10:14,529 --> 00:10:15,166
fit together.

277
00:10:15,803 --> 00:10:18,510
And that's when the framework started evolving and

278
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so on.

279
00:10:19,546 --> 00:10:20,183
And it became,

280
00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:22,514
a more predictable process.

281
00:10:23,475 --> 00:10:25,575
And then it was... It was somewhere around

282
00:10:25,875 --> 00:10:27,095
19 90

283
00:10:27,955 --> 00:10:28,195
when,

284
00:10:29,568 --> 00:10:32,670
read that quote by levi. People don't want

285
00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:34,580
quarter inch drill. You want to quarter in

286
00:10:34,580 --> 00:10:37,365
troll. And said, that's exactly it. This... These

287
00:10:37,365 --> 00:10:39,526
functions are all about creating the quarter in

288
00:10:39,526 --> 00:10:39,764
control.

289
00:10:40,718 --> 00:10:44,293
So these statements are about the underlying process

290
00:10:44,293 --> 00:10:45,644
that people are trying to get done.

291
00:10:47,328 --> 00:10:49,474
And that became part of the theory, and

292
00:10:49,474 --> 00:10:51,541
when I met Clay Back in about 19

293
00:10:51,541 --> 00:10:52,574
99.

294
00:10:53,290 --> 00:10:56,173
That's what I introduced to. The O process,

295
00:10:56,253 --> 00:10:57,371
the concepts and so on.

296
00:10:59,129 --> 00:11:01,446
And he said, the underlying process does not

297
00:11:01,446 --> 00:11:01,946
sound

298
00:11:02,339 --> 00:11:03,771
like, a very attractive way to say this.

299
00:11:04,407 --> 00:11:06,316
But we when don't you talk about the

300
00:11:06,316 --> 00:11:07,907
job to be done. That sounds better. People

301
00:11:07,907 --> 00:11:09,180
are buying a product to get a job,

302
00:11:10,149 --> 00:11:12,695
exactly. So so that's how oath had evolved

303
00:11:12,695 --> 00:11:13,093
as well.

304
00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:14,946
But a lot of

305
00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:16,060
being

306
00:11:16,847 --> 00:11:19,018
effective innovation. Really came down to

307
00:11:19,472 --> 00:11:22,018
classifying things. What we're looking at. We need

308
00:11:22,018 --> 00:11:23,370
the right inputs into innovation...

309
00:11:24,741 --> 00:11:27,295
Then started working on these metrics for the

310
00:11:27,295 --> 00:11:28,114
core job

311
00:11:28,492 --> 00:11:31,045
for the consumption elements for the financial part.

312
00:11:31,365 --> 00:11:33,848
And metrics that was stable over time, because

313
00:11:34,008 --> 00:11:35,065
I realized that

314
00:11:35,839 --> 00:11:38,308
the core job, like, creating the quarter in

315
00:11:38,308 --> 00:11:39,741
control. That's stable over time.

316
00:11:40,633 --> 00:11:42,729
So if we tire metrics to a stable

317
00:11:42,868 --> 00:11:44,565
focal point, we could have

318
00:11:45,022 --> 00:11:46,320
needs that would be

319
00:11:46,778 --> 00:11:48,787
valid for 2 years 3 years while we're

320
00:11:48,787 --> 00:11:50,962
going through the development process, so they won't

321
00:11:51,021 --> 00:11:52,137
change when we come out.

322
00:11:52,775 --> 00:11:55,407
So that was the thinking. And when that

323
00:11:55,407 --> 00:11:57,720
occurred me, then I started working even hard

324
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:58,014
to

325
00:11:59,091 --> 00:12:01,823
make my statements fiddle the deck criteria.

326
00:12:03,157 --> 00:12:05,310
And so now we say good need statement

327
00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:07,477
that we call them desired outcomes, they're stable

328
00:12:07,477 --> 00:12:10,689
over time. They're actionable, they're measurable and controllable.

329
00:12:11,146 --> 00:12:13,140
They predictive of success, and we have a

330
00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:14,656
whole set of criteria that makes it easy

331
00:12:14,656 --> 00:12:16,251
to think about them and how to capture

332
00:12:16,251 --> 00:12:16,331
them.

333
00:12:17,464 --> 00:12:19,461
But that's really the essence of all this

334
00:12:19,621 --> 00:12:20,819
Chad is thinking.

335
00:12:21,698 --> 00:12:22,976
What are the metrics people are gonna use

336
00:12:22,976 --> 00:12:24,335
to judge your value for my product.

337
00:12:25,226 --> 00:12:26,738
So if you talk to a customer's and

338
00:12:26,738 --> 00:12:29,523
they say, well, I like Product day bit

339
00:12:29,523 --> 00:12:30,557
product be for this reason.

340
00:12:31,273 --> 00:12:33,263
Well, I can go to my needs set

341
00:12:33,263 --> 00:12:35,193
and say, oh that's a functional outcome in

342
00:12:35,193 --> 00:12:35,912
this job,

343
00:12:36,631 --> 00:12:37,531
or that's a

344
00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:40,088
interface related outcome in this

345
00:12:40,467 --> 00:12:42,717
consumption change on or or so on. So

346
00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:44,387
I knew that the piece fit, so we

347
00:12:44,387 --> 00:12:47,352
could organize them and and then bring more

348
00:12:47,489 --> 00:12:48,443
predictability to the approach.

349
00:12:49,477 --> 00:12:51,544
And we just hacked that way through it.

350
00:12:51,862 --> 00:12:52,315
This was

351
00:12:52,833 --> 00:12:54,989
a learning experience as we went. I worked

352
00:12:54,989 --> 00:12:55,728
on maybe

353
00:12:56,745 --> 00:12:58,203
hundred projects from

354
00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:01,535
19 91 until 2001,

355
00:13:02,027 --> 00:13:03,141
by myself, basically,

356
00:13:04,016 --> 00:13:06,880
just keep testing the hypothesis. Just keep trying

357
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,334
to make it work. And

358
00:13:09,043 --> 00:13:09,783
fine tuning

359
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:11,675
until we eventually reached,

360
00:13:12,154 --> 00:13:14,147
a point where we we published an article

361
00:13:14,147 --> 00:13:15,662
link back in 2002,

362
00:13:16,061 --> 00:13:17,917
which kinda kicked all this off it highlighted

363
00:13:18,468 --> 00:13:21,097
a case from Quart corporation where we use

364
00:13:21,097 --> 00:13:21,756
the process

365
00:13:22,371 --> 00:13:25,398
very effectively to really move needle for them,

366
00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:27,013
across many fronts

367
00:13:27,484 --> 00:13:30,291
and it was stat success. Really sent the

368
00:13:30,347 --> 00:13:31,143
validation to me that says,

369
00:13:32,416 --> 00:13:34,006
you can come up with a matrix People

370
00:13:34,006 --> 00:13:35,611
are gonna to judge your value of your

371
00:13:35,611 --> 00:13:38,335
product. Years in advance and work towards

372
00:13:38,788 --> 00:13:41,092
designing solutions that address those metrics that are

373
00:13:41,092 --> 00:13:42,894
not well served by current products. Just

374
00:13:43,807 --> 00:13:44,124
And,

375
00:13:44,838 --> 00:13:46,925
that's the basics behind or

376
00:13:48,091 --> 00:13:50,392
that's a foundational thinking behind our process.

377
00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:54,568
So a start from that original frustrating

378
00:13:54,945 --> 00:13:57,335
outcome of of the Ibm Pc junior project.

379
00:13:57,495 --> 00:13:59,566
Right? How could all of our hard work

380
00:13:59,566 --> 00:14:00,841
as a team be a flop,

381
00:14:01,413 --> 00:14:02,765
announce the next day by the Lost Street

382
00:14:02,845 --> 00:14:05,469
Journal. And just digging in deeply into how

383
00:14:05,469 --> 00:14:07,537
could we do that better? Right? As you

384
00:14:07,537 --> 00:14:09,207
started now, product planning Ibm,

385
00:14:09,859 --> 00:14:11,615
And so I think it's it's very tangible

386
00:14:11,615 --> 00:14:13,290
for people to get their hands around. If

387
00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:15,365
we are ask people about 2 different products.

388
00:14:15,525 --> 00:14:17,201
What do you like better about 1 or

389
00:14:17,201 --> 00:14:18,891
the other? That I can see where that...

390
00:14:19,289 --> 00:14:20,565
A lot of things started from that sort

391
00:14:20,565 --> 00:14:23,595
of idea. And now it's really around these

392
00:14:23,595 --> 00:14:24,313
need statements.

393
00:14:24,871 --> 00:14:26,945
Can you give us an example too of

394
00:14:26,945 --> 00:14:29,990
about a a need statement that, how how

395
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:32,644
you figure this out? Sure. Yeah. So,

396
00:14:33,021 --> 00:14:35,254
let's go to the simple thing like cooking,

397
00:14:35,892 --> 00:14:37,981
preparing a meal. Out and we've all prepared

398
00:14:37,981 --> 00:14:40,613
males. And there's measurable outcomes that you're trying

399
00:14:40,613 --> 00:14:42,846
to achieve as you go about executing that

400
00:14:42,846 --> 00:14:43,085
job.

401
00:14:43,724 --> 00:14:46,116
For example, you wanna minimize the time it

402
00:14:46,116 --> 00:14:48,527
takes to complete the prep of the food.

403
00:14:49,246 --> 00:14:51,323
You want to minimize the time it takes

404
00:14:51,323 --> 00:14:53,720
to portion the food and to the right

405
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,598
amounts you wanna minimize likelihood overcook cooking the

406
00:14:56,598 --> 00:14:58,346
food. Minimize selective under cooking.

407
00:14:59,062 --> 00:15:01,207
Minimize likelihood that's foods cooked them evenly,

408
00:15:01,604 --> 00:15:02,875
and that I could go on. Right? There's...

409
00:15:03,448 --> 00:15:06,237
There's dozens of these statements that talk about

410
00:15:06,237 --> 00:15:08,308
how to get the job done faster, more

411
00:15:08,308 --> 00:15:10,954
predictably in with a a great result. So

412
00:15:10,954 --> 00:15:12,792
this no defects, if you will.

413
00:15:13,831 --> 00:15:16,329
And and these types of statements exist for

414
00:15:16,628 --> 00:15:19,665
any job, and they're plentiful. It's not as

415
00:15:19,665 --> 00:15:20,279
if there's

416
00:15:20,636 --> 00:15:22,696
5 outcomes around getting a job done. There's

417
00:15:22,696 --> 00:15:25,231
often a hundred or more outcomes and involved

418
00:15:25,231 --> 00:15:26,975
in getting a jonathan done. Even some simple

419
00:15:26,975 --> 00:15:29,465
jumps, We did a project for Unilever on

420
00:15:29,465 --> 00:15:31,945
washing your hands in a public restroom.

421
00:15:32,504 --> 00:15:35,465
There were a hundred outcomes associated with washing

422
00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:37,471
hands in the public crescent. Sounds like a

423
00:15:37,471 --> 00:15:40,032
very simple un complicated job, but

424
00:15:40,641 --> 00:15:42,464
turns out that there's a lot of moving

425
00:15:42,464 --> 00:15:43,415
parts. Right.

426
00:15:44,144 --> 00:15:46,000
And it's really at that level of granularity

427
00:15:46,218 --> 00:15:48,474
that you need to dig in order to

428
00:15:48,931 --> 00:15:50,447
get to the inputs that will help you

429
00:15:50,447 --> 00:15:51,005
create value.

430
00:15:51,816 --> 00:15:53,248
Right? Because evelyn, there was just trying to

431
00:15:53,248 --> 00:15:56,111
make products more convenient to use reliable,

432
00:15:57,146 --> 00:15:57,646
dependable.

433
00:15:58,433 --> 00:15:59,702
Ease, you know, easy use, But...

434
00:16:00,971 --> 00:16:03,351
What does that mean? Right? You can't measure

435
00:16:03,351 --> 00:16:03,510
that.

436
00:16:04,224 --> 00:16:05,589
I remember 1 of the first projects we've

437
00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:08,466
worked on in the Motorola, radio products division

438
00:16:08,466 --> 00:16:09,345
here in Florida.

439
00:16:09,904 --> 00:16:12,061
The... Customers are saying, well, we'd need to

440
00:16:12,061 --> 00:16:13,500
make our product easy to use. Of course,

441
00:16:13,674 --> 00:16:16,092
to do. We captured 25 different

442
00:16:16,471 --> 00:16:19,107
statements that related to ease of use.

443
00:16:19,746 --> 00:16:21,516
Right? So we could define that minimum minimize

444
00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:23,899
of likelihood that, I don't hit the wrong

445
00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:25,829
button in a emergency

446
00:16:26,282 --> 00:16:28,903
situation or the very specific things.

447
00:16:29,553 --> 00:16:31,456
It turned out that only 3 of those

448
00:16:31,456 --> 00:16:34,947
25 were underserved outcomes, but they were highly

449
00:16:34,947 --> 00:16:37,168
underserved and and fixing those 3.

450
00:16:37,739 --> 00:16:40,527
Help to differentiate their next generation of radio

451
00:16:40,527 --> 00:16:40,846
products.

452
00:16:42,041 --> 00:16:44,192
But so the the point there is getting

453
00:16:44,192 --> 00:16:46,619
to this level of granularity is really

454
00:16:47,235 --> 00:16:47,952
what's important.

455
00:16:49,067 --> 00:16:50,763
So that's what we do with in every

456
00:16:51,298 --> 00:16:53,706
assignment that we're on figure out. Well, what

457
00:16:53,706 --> 00:16:55,303
is the job The customer's trying to get

458
00:16:55,303 --> 00:16:55,463
done?

459
00:16:56,980 --> 00:16:59,135
And then break it down into its component

460
00:16:59,135 --> 00:17:01,930
parts fair how they measure success when getting

461
00:17:01,930 --> 00:17:03,865
the drop on. K. 2 things I I'd

462
00:17:03,865 --> 00:17:04,825
like like to go back to it from

463
00:17:04,825 --> 00:17:06,585
what you just shared So the... So and

464
00:17:06,585 --> 00:17:09,305
what customers want? O Book. I think the

465
00:17:09,305 --> 00:17:11,868
language there was at that time, these statements

466
00:17:11,868 --> 00:17:14,409
were those things that we would minimize and

467
00:17:14,409 --> 00:17:16,655
those things that we would want to maximize

468
00:17:17,028 --> 00:17:17,822
to create value.

469
00:17:18,714 --> 00:17:20,173
And I think that

470
00:17:20,792 --> 00:17:22,390
from what you just said, you... All your

471
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:24,468
statements were minimized. I think that's been in

472
00:17:24,468 --> 00:17:26,545
1 of the evolutions of your learning that

473
00:17:26,545 --> 00:17:28,892
you you have... Thought about how to just

474
00:17:29,185 --> 00:17:30,773
simplify phrasing need statements.

475
00:17:31,646 --> 00:17:34,424
It's definitely true. Yeah, We used to be

476
00:17:34,424 --> 00:17:35,559
much more

477
00:17:36,979 --> 00:17:40,890
inviting to variations and realize that they're really

478
00:17:41,104 --> 00:17:42,928
are causing the process to be inefficient.

479
00:17:43,976 --> 00:17:45,486
And 1 of those as we picked up

480
00:17:45,486 --> 00:17:47,314
on is how do you start the statement?

481
00:17:48,029 --> 00:17:50,334
And you're right, we say minimize this or

482
00:17:50,334 --> 00:17:52,904
increase that. As what we were for do.

483
00:17:53,144 --> 00:17:55,224
Mh. But what we learned is that,

484
00:17:55,945 --> 00:17:57,865
people are trying to get the drop down

485
00:17:57,865 --> 00:18:00,268
fast more predictably higher output throughput.

486
00:18:00,745 --> 00:18:02,097
They're trying to reduce time.

487
00:18:02,813 --> 00:18:03,688
They're trying to,

488
00:18:05,373 --> 00:18:07,756
reduce the likelihood that things go bad. They

489
00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:09,106
wanna reduce defects.

490
00:18:09,741 --> 00:18:11,274
Alright? They're trying to take

491
00:18:12,203 --> 00:18:13,712
imperfections away from the process.

492
00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:15,319
Alright?

493
00:18:16,518 --> 00:18:19,155
And all that led to the focus on

494
00:18:19,155 --> 00:18:21,313
minimize. Let's minimize time it takes the ux.

495
00:18:21,472 --> 00:18:23,470
So it's minimize the likelihood this bad thing

496
00:18:23,470 --> 00:18:23,790
happening.

497
00:18:24,365 --> 00:18:27,805
A minimize selector of of this defect occurring

498
00:18:27,805 --> 00:18:28,605
in the output.

499
00:18:29,964 --> 00:18:32,775
And it became a lot easier, for customers

500
00:18:32,775 --> 00:18:34,919
to understand and to talk about and for

501
00:18:34,919 --> 00:18:37,246
us to collect the information

502
00:18:37,778 --> 00:18:39,367
because because we just took away 1 of

503
00:18:39,367 --> 00:18:40,813
the variables in the equation what do he

504
00:18:40,813 --> 00:18:41,848
start need sticking with.

505
00:18:42,565 --> 00:18:44,953
And so we've done that for good. Oh,

506
00:18:45,192 --> 00:18:47,422
gosh. I had have 15 18 year or

507
00:18:47,422 --> 00:18:49,069
something like that where it's just and

508
00:18:49,749 --> 00:18:51,048
minimize the likelihood of that,

509
00:18:51,586 --> 00:18:53,104
bad things happen and minimize the time.

510
00:18:54,143 --> 00:18:56,554
And I I'd like that approach and I

511
00:18:56,554 --> 00:18:58,068
don't know if Scott Be, but he wrote

512
00:18:58,068 --> 00:19:00,300
a book called statue in the Stone this

513
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:00,539
here,

514
00:19:01,496 --> 00:19:04,206
which is interesting. And he talks about this.

515
00:19:04,859 --> 00:19:06,372
He worked with strat for a number of

516
00:19:06,372 --> 00:19:06,611
years,

517
00:19:07,328 --> 00:19:08,944
and he talks about,

518
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,776
how, my client... Michel

519
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:15,251
remove the imperfections from the rock. To create

520
00:19:15,307 --> 00:19:16,021
the perfection.

521
00:19:16,656 --> 00:19:18,323
And I love that analogy. And it's like,

522
00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:19,989
people are trying to get a job done

523
00:19:19,989 --> 00:19:21,759
better. Let's just remove all the

524
00:19:22,708 --> 00:19:25,022
and we'll... It'll be done better. Right? So

525
00:19:25,022 --> 00:19:26,858
the same it's the same kind of thinking.

526
00:19:27,178 --> 00:19:29,034
And it... Like I said, it simplifies

527
00:19:29,572 --> 00:19:30,311
the captured

528
00:19:31,023 --> 00:19:33,114
it also simplifies it when it's being prioritized

529
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:33,830
too

530
00:19:34,284 --> 00:19:36,591
because we put these statements in surveys and

531
00:19:36,591 --> 00:19:39,080
have people rate them for importance and satisfaction

532
00:19:40,027 --> 00:19:41,938
And if we stick at the same nomenclature,

533
00:19:42,654 --> 00:19:45,361
people don't have to rethink the starting point

534
00:19:45,361 --> 00:19:47,590
it just becomes... Or it's very consistent.

535
00:19:48,404 --> 00:19:50,880
Yeah. Exactly. So that works quite well. Yeah.

536
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,558
Yeah. Just that that simple...

537
00:19:53,357 --> 00:19:55,606
Simplifying anyone that's done the... The l or

538
00:19:55,606 --> 00:19:57,516
type survey where we say, right on a

539
00:19:57,516 --> 00:19:59,664
scale of 1 to 7, how served were

540
00:19:59,664 --> 00:20:02,862
you right underserved kinda of neutral served and

541
00:20:02,862 --> 00:20:05,165
when we start changing the the direction those

542
00:20:05,165 --> 00:20:08,103
questions go, it just causes confusion for us

543
00:20:08,103 --> 00:20:09,612
as the people doing the analysis, and also

544
00:20:09,612 --> 00:20:11,690
for the people taking it. So... Yeah. So

545
00:20:11,848 --> 00:20:13,671
I like this change. You you mentioned in

546
00:20:13,671 --> 00:20:14,860
there, which what, I was gonna ask you

547
00:20:14,860 --> 00:20:17,000
about too. It sounds like the ranking process

548
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,260
trying to figure out. Like, in your motorola

549
00:20:19,555 --> 00:20:22,576
example of the 25 jobs that were related

550
00:20:22,576 --> 00:20:25,835
or 25 criteria related to statements that for

551
00:20:25,835 --> 00:20:27,107
something to be easier to use.

552
00:20:27,918 --> 00:20:30,227
There were 3 that were underserved. What are

553
00:20:30,227 --> 00:20:32,479
you doing today to you get to identifying

554
00:20:32,696 --> 00:20:34,766
what is under just underserved and maybe which

555
00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:35,802
of those are most important?

556
00:20:37,009 --> 00:20:39,152
Yeah. So we still do the quantitative research.

557
00:20:39,549 --> 00:20:41,375
Mh. You know, the way our process works

558
00:20:41,375 --> 00:20:43,757
is we do qualitative work first to understand.

559
00:20:44,328 --> 00:20:46,235
From the customer, what is the job to

560
00:20:46,235 --> 00:20:46,553
be done?

561
00:20:47,268 --> 00:20:48,778
How do you break it down and what

562
00:20:48,778 --> 00:20:50,448
are all the metrics? So while it's un

563
00:20:50,448 --> 00:20:50,948
qualitatively,

564
00:20:52,371 --> 00:20:52,609
through,

565
00:20:53,246 --> 00:20:55,791
in and if interview process with con... With

566
00:20:55,791 --> 00:20:57,541
the customers the job computers.

567
00:20:58,337 --> 00:20:59,689
Once we have that information, we put it

568
00:20:59,689 --> 00:21:01,938
in the survey that goes out to hundreds

569
00:21:01,938 --> 00:21:03,296
if not thousands of people,

570
00:21:03,855 --> 00:21:06,571
and they fill out the survey, tell us

571
00:21:06,571 --> 00:21:08,065
the importance of each outcome

572
00:21:08,504 --> 00:21:10,821
and the current level of satisfaction, given the

573
00:21:10,821 --> 00:21:12,899
solution they use today. And they tell us

574
00:21:12,899 --> 00:21:14,977
for solution they're using too. So we can

575
00:21:14,977 --> 00:21:17,135
get competitive data, satisfaction levels.

576
00:21:17,869 --> 00:21:19,646
For product a versus satisfaction

577
00:21:20,104 --> 00:21:22,419
for product b and so on. So we

578
00:21:22,419 --> 00:21:24,176
can look product by product to see where

579
00:21:24,176 --> 00:21:26,092
opportunities lie, and we can look across the

580
00:21:26,092 --> 00:21:28,258
market to see are their needs that are

581
00:21:28,258 --> 00:21:30,007
unmet by everybody. Right?

582
00:21:30,723 --> 00:21:31,859
But it's the same

583
00:21:32,393 --> 00:21:35,335
calculation that we introduced back in the 2002

584
00:21:35,653 --> 00:21:36,846
Hvac article. Mh.

585
00:21:37,738 --> 00:21:38,616
It's very simple.

586
00:21:39,494 --> 00:21:41,888
If a need... The concept is... If a

587
00:21:41,888 --> 00:21:44,123
need is very important across a large portion

588
00:21:44,123 --> 00:21:45,081
of the population.

589
00:21:45,814 --> 00:21:47,882
But only a small percentage of the population

590
00:21:47,882 --> 00:21:48,382
satisfied,

591
00:21:49,234 --> 00:21:51,064
then we're gonna call that unmet need.

592
00:21:52,177 --> 00:21:55,056
And and the greater, the importance and the

593
00:21:55,056 --> 00:21:55,874
less satisfaction,

594
00:21:57,284 --> 00:21:58,875
the higher the opportunity score.

595
00:22:00,068 --> 00:22:00,625
Very simple.

596
00:22:01,754 --> 00:22:02,654
We've worked on

597
00:22:03,352 --> 00:22:06,728
several variations of that formula since that time

598
00:22:07,346 --> 00:22:08,599
and to see if we could make it

599
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,380
better

600
00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:10,579
and

601
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,000
do our own analysis. We think the optional

602
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,900
algorithms is about 93 and half percent effective

603
00:22:17,453 --> 00:22:19,287
There's some noise in the middle of the

604
00:22:19,287 --> 00:22:21,680
equation when it's not that important and not

605
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,354
that satisfied. So there's a little bit noise

606
00:22:23,354 --> 00:22:25,109
in the middle, but it works well in

607
00:22:25,109 --> 00:22:26,440
the fringes is

608
00:22:26,957 --> 00:22:29,050
But we looked at other approaches that would

609
00:22:29,347 --> 00:22:32,295
be more predictive, but they were so hard

610
00:22:32,295 --> 00:22:33,012
to explain.

611
00:22:34,459 --> 00:22:36,687
That we decided just to stick with what

612
00:22:36,687 --> 00:22:39,073
we currently have. You know, I I don't

613
00:22:39,073 --> 00:22:40,758
wanna I don't want it to be you

614
00:22:40,758 --> 00:22:42,426
have to have a Phd in order to

615
00:22:42,426 --> 00:22:45,841
understand how to prioritize needs. Because say it's

616
00:22:45,841 --> 00:22:46,897
important and not satisfied

617
00:22:47,271 --> 00:22:49,256
makes perfect sense. So let's just put them

618
00:22:49,256 --> 00:22:50,942
math there and you and go with it.

619
00:22:51,101 --> 00:22:53,572
So that part of the equation really hasn't

620
00:22:53,572 --> 00:22:56,123
evolved much over the past 20 years or

621
00:22:56,123 --> 00:22:58,490
so, been very stable, and it continues to

622
00:22:58,769 --> 00:23:01,163
scrape results. Yeah. And simple for us to

623
00:23:01,163 --> 00:23:03,657
to grasp important and not satisfied as is

624
00:23:03,796 --> 00:23:05,711
the things that get our attention. As part

625
00:23:05,711 --> 00:23:08,525
of my... Phd research, I had to have

626
00:23:08,525 --> 00:23:11,644
my people participating in in that data, qualitative

627
00:23:11,644 --> 00:23:14,299
and quantitative analysis to do some ranking. And

628
00:23:14,378 --> 00:23:16,314
I chose to do pair wise

629
00:23:16,692 --> 00:23:19,483
comparison, which is Yeah. You pull out. So,

630
00:23:19,563 --> 00:23:21,637
like, if you had your 25 statements of

631
00:23:21,637 --> 00:23:23,072
easy to use, you pick 2 at a

632
00:23:23,072 --> 00:23:24,444
time and you ask the person which one's

633
00:23:24,444 --> 00:23:26,601
more important. And you go all the way

634
00:23:26,601 --> 00:23:29,098
through. And this becomes un

635
00:23:29,637 --> 00:23:32,130
for more than just a few, which statements.

636
00:23:32,369 --> 00:23:33,650
And so we we have to find ways

637
00:23:33,650 --> 00:23:35,890
to make this work to give us useful

638
00:23:35,890 --> 00:23:38,450
information that isn't so labor that no 1

639
00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:39,809
is ever going to do fill out a

640
00:23:39,809 --> 00:23:40,369
survey for us.

641
00:23:41,582 --> 00:23:43,652
Exactly. And chad, 1 more interesting thing about

642
00:23:43,652 --> 00:23:46,700
that is pair comparison, the force choice, those

643
00:23:47,155 --> 00:23:47,655
methodologies

644
00:23:48,349 --> 00:23:48,906
are really...

645
00:23:49,479 --> 00:23:51,095
Quantitative research methods

646
00:23:51,471 --> 00:23:52,747
designed in

647
00:23:53,624 --> 00:23:54,899
in solution space.

648
00:23:56,095 --> 00:23:58,892
Because because you're asking people to make trade

649
00:23:58,892 --> 00:23:59,867
offs between

650
00:24:00,318 --> 00:24:00,556
outcomes,

651
00:24:01,586 --> 00:24:03,725
which outcome is more... Which outcome would you

652
00:24:03,725 --> 00:24:04,225
prefer

653
00:24:05,009 --> 00:24:07,164
But see, and before that was used for

654
00:24:07,164 --> 00:24:09,001
outcomes, it was really used for features. Would

655
00:24:09,001 --> 00:24:10,438
you want this or more than this feature,

656
00:24:10,597 --> 00:24:12,055
which one's more

657
00:24:12,912 --> 00:24:15,241
interesting to you. And then, that 1, which

658
00:24:15,241 --> 00:24:16,677
feature we could choose this 1 over over

659
00:24:16,677 --> 00:24:18,830
this 1. So it was really when when

660
00:24:18,830 --> 00:24:21,860
you're asking people to make trade offs, you

661
00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:23,136
do it its solution space.

662
00:24:23,868 --> 00:24:26,091
And we're trying to avoid all that because

663
00:24:26,091 --> 00:24:28,790
you could have 20 needs. They could all

664
00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:31,116
be really important and not well satisfied.

665
00:24:32,065 --> 00:24:34,625
And when we're not trying to make trade

666
00:24:34,625 --> 00:24:36,865
offs in problem space. We only make trade

667
00:24:36,865 --> 00:24:37,744
in solution space.

668
00:24:38,704 --> 00:24:41,744
Right? So we never use paired comparison and

669
00:24:41,744 --> 00:24:42,721
force choice

670
00:24:43,256 --> 00:24:43,994
to prioritize

671
00:24:45,324 --> 00:24:45,642
outcomes.

672
00:24:46,293 --> 00:24:48,040
Because we're not making treatment, we're not asking

673
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,652
customers to make trade offs

674
00:24:50,264 --> 00:24:51,376
that early in the process.

675
00:24:51,853 --> 00:24:54,259
Right? If they have 10 on unmet needs

676
00:24:54,727 --> 00:24:55,999
We wanna try to satisfy us by all

677
00:24:55,999 --> 00:24:57,272
10. Mh.

678
00:24:57,987 --> 00:25:00,293
We we don't want them deciding in solution

679
00:25:00,293 --> 00:25:03,178
space, which one's gonna be addressed better because

680
00:25:03,235 --> 00:25:05,804
they don't know. Eric. It'll build the best

681
00:25:05,804 --> 00:25:06,044
solutions.

682
00:25:06,924 --> 00:25:09,664
K. I'm going to try to capture that

683
00:25:09,804 --> 00:25:11,644
to make sure I'm not confused about that

684
00:25:11,644 --> 00:25:12,845
because I think this is a very important

685
00:25:12,845 --> 00:25:15,036
point. When when we look at innovation processes,

686
00:25:15,654 --> 00:25:18,527
there's the upfront work to understand what... Who

687
00:25:18,527 --> 00:25:20,922
the customer is and what problem that they

688
00:25:20,922 --> 00:25:23,328
actually have. What job. They're trying to accomplish

689
00:25:23,328 --> 00:25:25,000
and jobs if you've done language, what they

690
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,149
wanna move towards. And then with a clear

691
00:25:27,149 --> 00:25:29,537
understanding of that, we can start considering solutions.

692
00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:33,470
And validating a far solution creates satisfaction for

693
00:25:33,470 --> 00:25:35,869
the customer. And in too many other the...

694
00:25:36,029 --> 00:25:38,269
Too much of the time, I see, teams,

695
00:25:38,429 --> 00:25:41,559
product teams, and organizations jump into the solution.

696
00:25:41,798 --> 00:25:43,873
I I think it's just hardwired into humans.

697
00:25:44,511 --> 00:25:46,846
And particularly engineers like both of our backgrounds

698
00:25:47,238 --> 00:25:48,908
we hear anything that sounds like a problem.

699
00:25:49,067 --> 00:25:51,214
We we we are on to driving towards

700
00:25:51,214 --> 00:25:53,361
the solution. Right? And we get things wrong

701
00:25:53,361 --> 00:25:55,508
them because we don't clearly understand the problem

702
00:25:55,508 --> 00:25:57,913
and what is important. And And that's what

703
00:25:57,913 --> 00:26:00,570
you're talking about that the focus is clearly

704
00:26:00,709 --> 00:26:02,887
understanding what that problem is. What the customer's

705
00:26:03,026 --> 00:26:06,088
unmet needs are. What they're trying to accomplish

706
00:26:06,462 --> 00:26:09,160
and what what is underserved for them and

707
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:09,954
accomplishing that job.

708
00:26:11,065 --> 00:26:13,943
That. That's exactly right. Okay. Yep And we

709
00:26:13,943 --> 00:26:15,861
don't wanna make any trade offs too soon.

710
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:18,417
Right? Trade offs come in solution space. We

711
00:26:18,417 --> 00:26:20,015
don't make trade offs some problem space.

712
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:22,269
We wanna know in priority to order. What

713
00:26:22,269 --> 00:26:24,190
are your unmet needs and to what degree.

714
00:26:24,509 --> 00:26:24,670
Right?

715
00:26:25,309 --> 00:26:25,710
Yep. Yeah.

716
00:26:26,430 --> 00:26:28,589
Absolutely. Okay. Very good. So... Yeah. You went

717
00:26:28,589 --> 00:26:31,102
through a great history there. Lots of details

718
00:26:31,159 --> 00:26:33,231
that will be rounded out, for people if

719
00:26:33,231 --> 00:26:34,983
they they do read those 2 books we

720
00:26:34,983 --> 00:26:37,029
talked about before. I... I'm curious

721
00:26:37,469 --> 00:26:39,304
as you look back on this time in

722
00:26:39,304 --> 00:26:41,459
in developing the this kind of body of

723
00:26:41,459 --> 00:26:43,933
knowledge for job to be done, that experience

724
00:26:43,933 --> 00:26:44,890
from your Ibm days.

725
00:26:45,543 --> 00:26:47,453
And putting the other outcome innovation and job

726
00:26:47,453 --> 00:26:50,159
to be done. What surprises you most about

727
00:26:50,159 --> 00:26:51,694
the state of innovation

728
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:53,741
as you look over the your career where

729
00:26:53,741 --> 00:26:54,877
things are now

730
00:26:55,189 --> 00:26:56,947
maybe in comparison to where you thought they

731
00:26:56,947 --> 00:26:57,267
might be?

732
00:26:58,066 --> 00:27:00,063
Yeah. That's a great question Chad because, you

733
00:27:00,063 --> 00:27:01,282
know, I I thought

734
00:27:01,661 --> 00:27:02,620
years ago that.

735
00:27:03,431 --> 00:27:05,279
When when we came up with the approach

736
00:27:06,049 --> 00:27:08,349
that everyone would use it, everyone would read

737
00:27:08,349 --> 00:27:10,746
the our customers want book and they'd go

738
00:27:10,746 --> 00:27:13,371
do it, and I'd be out of businesses

739
00:27:13,371 --> 00:27:14,485
or in another business.

740
00:27:15,122 --> 00:27:15,281
Right?

741
00:27:16,474 --> 00:27:19,755
And and that didn't happen. Right? And So

742
00:27:19,755 --> 00:27:21,295
even as we have introduced

743
00:27:21,835 --> 00:27:23,515
all the specifics, and we...

744
00:27:24,315 --> 00:27:26,154
We've laid out everything in terms of what

745
00:27:26,154 --> 00:27:28,241
you have to do from a qualitative research

746
00:27:28,241 --> 00:27:29,298
standpoint, quantitative

747
00:27:29,754 --> 00:27:30,630
data and analytics,

748
00:27:31,346 --> 00:27:33,496
segmentation techniques, the innovation strategy,

749
00:27:34,132 --> 00:27:34,632
development

750
00:27:35,024 --> 00:27:36,942
we've laid all that out. What what... And

751
00:27:36,942 --> 00:27:39,658
and we have been proposing it and using

752
00:27:39,658 --> 00:27:42,269
it in large companies for 32 years

753
00:27:43,109 --> 00:27:45,985
I guess what surprises me is that there's

754
00:27:45,985 --> 00:27:46,485
still

755
00:27:47,024 --> 00:27:48,383
there's still... I'd say,

756
00:27:49,102 --> 00:27:49,981
95

757
00:27:49,981 --> 00:27:50,700
percent of the cases.

758
00:27:51,834 --> 00:27:53,352
Innovation is still ideas first.

759
00:27:53,991 --> 00:27:56,947
Right it's not about understanding the needs. It's

760
00:27:56,947 --> 00:27:58,385
about someone had an idea.

761
00:27:59,038 --> 00:28:00,808
Or our company has

762
00:28:01,341 --> 00:28:03,882
50 ideas or thousand ideas in the idea

763
00:28:03,882 --> 00:28:06,265
of database and now we have to manage

764
00:28:06,265 --> 00:28:07,694
the ideas. Right?

765
00:28:08,584 --> 00:28:10,919
It's like... It's almost 2 camps. Right? Where

766
00:28:11,057 --> 00:28:12,036
1 camp is

767
00:28:12,892 --> 00:28:15,525
innovation management is about managing the ideas that.

768
00:28:15,779 --> 00:28:17,854
Generate and figure out which ideas you should

769
00:28:17,854 --> 00:28:18,833
go pursue

770
00:28:19,371 --> 00:28:21,127
versus what we do is we save you're

771
00:28:21,127 --> 00:28:23,202
in a market. Let's understand all the unmet

772
00:28:23,202 --> 00:28:24,000
needs in the market,

773
00:28:24,653 --> 00:28:26,008
figure out which I'm unmet, and then come

774
00:28:26,008 --> 00:28:27,999
up with solutions that just addresses those unmet

775
00:28:27,999 --> 00:28:30,309
needs. You don't need that database of all

776
00:28:30,309 --> 00:28:30,867
those needs.

777
00:28:31,505 --> 00:28:33,416
All those solutions, or, the ideas.

778
00:28:34,226 --> 00:28:39,006
Right? Just and instead of just creating ideas

779
00:28:39,615 --> 00:28:41,855
because for for every idea. Think of it

780
00:28:41,855 --> 00:28:43,934
like this. For every idea, someone's gonna have

781
00:28:43,934 --> 00:28:45,375
to sit there and go. Is that a

782
00:28:45,375 --> 00:28:45,774
good idea,

783
00:28:46,894 --> 00:28:48,815
and then I have to know what market

784
00:28:48,815 --> 00:28:49,855
is that idea.

785
00:28:50,588 --> 00:28:52,597
In. Right? What market is it

786
00:28:53,685 --> 00:28:54,241
focus on?

787
00:28:54,955 --> 00:28:56,861
Does the idea address on unmet needs in

788
00:28:56,861 --> 00:28:57,417
the market?

789
00:28:58,608 --> 00:28:59,664
And does it

790
00:29:00,132 --> 00:29:01,246
address that unmet needs.

791
00:29:02,837 --> 00:29:04,189
Now you have to do that a thousands

792
00:29:04,189 --> 00:29:06,576
of ideas. That is a tremendous amount of

793
00:29:06,576 --> 00:29:06,655
work.

794
00:29:07,939 --> 00:29:10,396
And the bad news there is, the answer

795
00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:12,219
could be that none of those ideas address

796
00:29:12,219 --> 00:29:13,645
the top unmet needs in the market.

797
00:29:14,374 --> 00:29:16,452
Right? Right? So you're really gambling if you

798
00:29:16,452 --> 00:29:17,911
go down that ideas management

799
00:29:18,929 --> 00:29:19,408
path, where...

800
00:29:20,527 --> 00:29:22,445
That's not really innovation. Right? That's just...

801
00:29:23,819 --> 00:29:24,480
Try to

802
00:29:24,859 --> 00:29:25,740
mine ideas.

803
00:29:26,619 --> 00:29:27,420
That's high risk.

804
00:29:29,339 --> 00:29:30,700
Going the other way, Of course, we're trying

805
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:33,185
to mitigate risk And like I said, what

806
00:29:33,185 --> 00:29:35,174
what really amaze me to this day is

807
00:29:35,174 --> 00:29:37,482
that most companies still go down the Idea

808
00:29:37,482 --> 00:29:38,199
management path.

809
00:29:39,248 --> 00:29:41,317
And think about innovation through that lens. And

810
00:29:41,396 --> 00:29:43,146
Chad, I think you're right. Keep... I think

811
00:29:43,146 --> 00:29:45,453
people just hardwired to think about solutions.

812
00:29:46,264 --> 00:29:46,423
Mh.

813
00:29:47,141 --> 00:29:48,894
Because I've I've asked myself this question for

814
00:29:48,894 --> 00:29:51,307
32 years. Why don't people just

815
00:29:51,684 --> 00:29:53,358
do it the way we're prescribing here works?

816
00:29:53,757 --> 00:29:54,235
It's great.

817
00:29:55,124 --> 00:29:57,824
Requires a little discipline upfront, but but it

818
00:29:57,824 --> 00:29:58,777
produces the right result.

819
00:29:59,570 --> 00:30:00,921
And I think it just gets in the

820
00:30:00,921 --> 00:30:01,953
way of natural instinct.

821
00:30:02,924 --> 00:30:04,363
Right. I think that's part of the answer.

822
00:30:04,842 --> 00:30:06,600
Yeah. And this would be a much larger,

823
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,678
longer discussion depending what direction will yell in

824
00:30:08,678 --> 00:30:11,076
here. But there's the the common sense that

825
00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:12,846
we have heard about at for a long

826
00:30:12,846 --> 00:30:15,150
time, like, you need lots of ideas to

827
00:30:15,150 --> 00:30:16,500
come up with a few good ones. Right?

828
00:30:16,659 --> 00:30:18,486
And so there's lots of innovation math that

829
00:30:18,486 --> 00:30:20,489
looks like that. So I think 1 of

830
00:30:20,489 --> 00:30:22,659
the problems is just the human nature of

831
00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:25,738
kinda not trusting ourselves to use the process

832
00:30:25,738 --> 00:30:25,897
right,

833
00:30:26,613 --> 00:30:28,855
especially when something is new. And I I've

834
00:30:28,855 --> 00:30:31,004
seen this in a several arenas, like, where

835
00:30:31,004 --> 00:30:33,073
someone will write a how to book. Right?

836
00:30:33,312 --> 00:30:35,381
Follow the steps, and you can do this.

837
00:30:35,954 --> 00:30:39,070
And then the author ends up still offering

838
00:30:39,070 --> 00:30:40,669
all these courses that are filled all the

839
00:30:40,669 --> 00:30:42,986
time because people aren't sure if they're applying

840
00:30:42,986 --> 00:30:43,705
it properly.

841
00:30:44,357 --> 00:30:46,344
And we we we have talked in the

842
00:30:46,344 --> 00:30:48,251
past. I don't know if done some interview

843
00:30:48,251 --> 00:30:50,317
before. It it turns out that we both

844
00:30:50,317 --> 00:30:51,191
helped the same company.

845
00:30:51,844 --> 00:30:54,081
And I was there after the work that

846
00:30:54,081 --> 00:30:54,481
you did.

847
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,798
And I was fascinated about how how this

848
00:30:56,798 --> 00:30:58,577
started because the people involved

849
00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:01,526
read this book. And applied it and came

850
00:31:01,526 --> 00:31:03,202
up with a really good strategy for what

851
00:31:03,202 --> 00:31:04,639
they needed to do. They they did a

852
00:31:04,639 --> 00:31:06,416
good job of uncovering

853
00:31:07,034 --> 00:31:07,534
important

854
00:31:07,912 --> 00:31:11,585
underserved needs. Right? And then your organization, did

855
00:31:11,585 --> 00:31:14,206
the detailed market research for them and created

856
00:31:14,206 --> 00:31:16,987
a detailed plan to support that. And they

857
00:31:16,987 --> 00:31:18,337
felt... Okay. We got it right.

858
00:31:19,069 --> 00:31:21,069
Right? Because we we thought we were on

859
00:31:21,069 --> 00:31:22,509
the right track. We just applied the book.

860
00:31:22,669 --> 00:31:24,589
Right? The the knowledge for that. And then

861
00:31:24,589 --> 00:31:26,349
based on the market research and in your

862
00:31:26,349 --> 00:31:29,401
organization's work, like, yes. The experts, strategy and

863
00:31:29,401 --> 00:31:30,918
is telling us we got it right, and

864
00:31:30,918 --> 00:31:32,036
it's what we're gonna go do.

865
00:31:32,834 --> 00:31:34,750
And then I was asked to just help

866
00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:36,905
the product team and the product managers,

867
00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:38,936
basically gain confidence

868
00:31:39,791 --> 00:31:42,901
about how do you innovate? Right? Not... III

869
00:31:42,901 --> 00:31:44,894
don't teach your stuff per s. I'm I

870
00:31:44,894 --> 00:31:46,090
respect it wholeheartedly,

871
00:31:46,583 --> 00:31:48,492
but I I probably should've have tried to

872
00:31:48,492 --> 00:31:49,606
ask you for a job what I bet

873
00:31:49,606 --> 00:31:51,436
you back in 2006 because I would loved

874
00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:53,400
to. I think I've missed out here. But

875
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:55,355
But I I think there's this confidence issue

876
00:31:55,355 --> 00:31:57,430
that that's come to into play too as

877
00:31:57,430 --> 00:31:59,744
we look at why aren't companies better at

878
00:31:59,744 --> 00:32:01,500
innovating given the tools they have.

879
00:32:02,231 --> 00:32:05,323
Available. And in this example, this organization, they

880
00:32:05,323 --> 00:32:06,989
applied your work. They did it themselves. They

881
00:32:06,989 --> 00:32:09,740
did a great job. They hired your organization

882
00:32:09,939 --> 00:32:12,725
they had a great detailed plan that they

883
00:32:12,725 --> 00:32:14,954
they were ready to execute on. And it

884
00:32:14,954 --> 00:32:17,183
was still the people involved in the execution.

885
00:32:18,075 --> 00:32:20,234
They just needed more confidence to know that

886
00:32:20,234 --> 00:32:21,355
they could innovate.

887
00:32:22,234 --> 00:32:24,154
And and so there's some aspect they're about...

888
00:32:25,034 --> 00:32:26,634
III don't know what that looks like in

889
00:32:26,634 --> 00:32:28,168
human age. Right, that that that we're not

890
00:32:28,168 --> 00:32:30,805
really sure about moving forward. And even today,

891
00:32:30,965 --> 00:32:33,042
they're still the Ceo that hopefully, some are

892
00:32:33,042 --> 00:32:35,255
listening to this that their position is to

893
00:32:35,532 --> 00:32:37,357
Well, we'll find out if anyone wants this

894
00:32:37,357 --> 00:32:38,865
when we we put it in the marketplace.

895
00:32:39,262 --> 00:32:40,611
That's when we'll find out if it's a

896
00:32:40,611 --> 00:32:42,198
successor or not. That's painful. Yeah.

897
00:32:43,327 --> 00:32:45,399
Yeah. That's Pc Junior. You don't wanna do

898
00:32:45,399 --> 00:32:47,790
that. Right. And, Chad, you bring up something

899
00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:49,704
that we've worked on a lot for the

900
00:32:49,704 --> 00:32:50,740
last 10 years.

901
00:32:51,873 --> 00:32:53,711
Especially last 5. We did it an O

902
00:32:53,711 --> 00:32:54,670
project on this too.

903
00:32:55,309 --> 00:32:57,866
We apply an O 2 markets that we

904
00:32:57,866 --> 00:32:58,366
wanna...

905
00:32:59,145 --> 00:33:01,787
As well when it's innovation capability building.

906
00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:05,287
And so we study that. And what we

907
00:33:05,287 --> 00:33:07,930
find is that, and It's exactly what you

908
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:10,321
just said. People are not confident in using

909
00:33:10,321 --> 00:33:11,357
the data correctly.

910
00:33:11,994 --> 00:33:14,385
It's interesting these outcome statements are very straightforward,

911
00:33:14,545 --> 00:33:16,396
but when the team is presented with an

912
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:18,631
outcome statement and said, here's the biggest unmet

913
00:33:18,631 --> 00:33:20,227
need. They don't know what to do with

914
00:33:20,227 --> 00:33:20,387
that.

915
00:33:22,063 --> 00:33:24,332
In many cases. Right? So

916
00:33:24,705 --> 00:33:27,324
so there's there's an education component that comes

917
00:33:27,324 --> 00:33:27,800
along with it.

918
00:33:28,673 --> 00:33:30,656
And what we've done for the past 5

919
00:33:30,656 --> 00:33:33,132
year... So when we do projects with their

920
00:33:33,132 --> 00:33:33,687
our clients,

921
00:33:34,878 --> 00:33:36,227
we go do the work like we always

922
00:33:36,227 --> 00:33:38,132
did, but we had a, what we call

923
00:33:38,132 --> 00:33:39,243
it project cohort.

924
00:33:40,693 --> 00:33:43,109
We're for every step we go through, market

925
00:33:43,327 --> 00:33:44,605
definition, outcome gathering,

926
00:33:45,802 --> 00:33:45,962
prioritization,

927
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:47,319
segmentation,

928
00:33:48,117 --> 00:33:48,916
innovation strategy.

929
00:33:49,808 --> 00:33:53,013
We take the team through 5 90 minute

930
00:33:54,263 --> 00:33:55,854
live sessions on...

931
00:33:56,744 --> 00:33:58,502
What we're doing, why we did it, what

932
00:33:58,502 --> 00:34:00,260
with the information is and how they're gonna

933
00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:01,160
use it downstream.

934
00:34:02,658 --> 00:34:05,215
So by the time we're done with the

935
00:34:05,215 --> 00:34:05,615
project,

936
00:34:06,507 --> 00:34:07,246
they know

937
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:09,613
why we have this data and how to

938
00:34:09,613 --> 00:34:09,932
use it,

939
00:34:10,728 --> 00:34:12,481
then we go use it. So then we

940
00:34:12,481 --> 00:34:14,574
go into idea radiation, We're go into product

941
00:34:14,632 --> 00:34:15,603
value prop mission,

942
00:34:16,318 --> 00:34:18,387
creation, whatever an activity we need to work

943
00:34:18,387 --> 00:34:19,046
on downstream.

944
00:34:19,978 --> 00:34:23,174
And that increases chances of success dramatically.

945
00:34:24,126 --> 00:34:26,029
We did work. We did a study back

946
00:34:26,029 --> 00:34:26,981
in 2010,

947
00:34:27,457 --> 00:34:29,837
and we found that 86 percent of our

948
00:34:29,837 --> 00:34:30,684
clients that

949
00:34:31,364 --> 00:34:33,382
release a product using O

950
00:34:33,761 --> 00:34:34,480
have a success.

951
00:34:35,439 --> 00:34:37,597
But we also found that 40 percent of

952
00:34:37,597 --> 00:34:39,375
the clients would work with

953
00:34:39,767 --> 00:34:41,755
never used the data. They never produced the

954
00:34:41,755 --> 00:34:44,221
product. Mh. It was... It's for the reason

955
00:34:44,221 --> 00:34:45,096
you you described.

956
00:34:45,891 --> 00:34:48,132
Alright. They didn't have the confidence of they

957
00:34:48,132 --> 00:34:49,324
needed to really move forward.

958
00:34:50,278 --> 00:34:52,901
And so the this training component, if you

959
00:34:52,901 --> 00:34:55,047
will. It's designed to get people,

960
00:34:55,619 --> 00:34:56,500
in the right mindset.

961
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:56,980
Right?

962
00:34:57,780 --> 00:34:59,619
So so they can get out of that

963
00:34:59,619 --> 00:35:01,880
ideas first phase into the problem

964
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:03,480
solving phase

965
00:35:03,952 --> 00:35:05,567
and learn how to use data

966
00:35:05,943 --> 00:35:08,172
in their current workflows to get their jobs

967
00:35:08,172 --> 00:35:08,729
done better.

968
00:35:09,445 --> 00:35:11,730
And that has proved to be very effective

969
00:35:11,849 --> 00:35:14,010
approach so the uptake is far greater than

970
00:35:14,010 --> 00:35:14,670
it was

971
00:35:15,130 --> 00:35:17,869
before, thankfully, because, yeah, none of us wanted

972
00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:20,018
do work and have the data sitting on

973
00:35:20,018 --> 00:35:22,400
the shelf for great strategy sitting there with

974
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,123
nobody pursuing it. So I think you're having

975
00:35:25,497 --> 00:35:27,561
the team come on board with this education

976
00:35:27,561 --> 00:35:28,061
component

977
00:35:28,689 --> 00:35:30,924
and it's it's come it's part of change

978
00:35:30,924 --> 00:35:33,079
management, which is starting people in in the

979
00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:33,718
new mindset.

980
00:35:34,277 --> 00:35:36,672
So they're ready to take that data and

981
00:35:36,672 --> 00:35:37,550
use it effectively.

982
00:35:38,123 --> 00:35:41,149
Yeah. The the old business adage about analysis

983
00:35:41,149 --> 00:35:41,626
paralysis.

984
00:35:42,025 --> 00:35:43,958
The there is something kind of

985
00:35:44,334 --> 00:35:46,006
fun for some of us maybe they like

986
00:35:46,006 --> 00:35:48,646
data. And reassuring that you do the analysis,

987
00:35:48,805 --> 00:35:51,191
you uncover what people need, what would actually

988
00:35:51,191 --> 00:35:53,021
create value for them and make them choose

989
00:35:53,021 --> 00:35:55,422
your product over other options and you feel

990
00:35:55,422 --> 00:35:56,855
good about figuring that all out, but there

991
00:35:56,855 --> 00:35:58,629
is the step then that

992
00:35:59,005 --> 00:36:01,154
is kinda of moving into into unknown territory,

993
00:36:01,393 --> 00:36:02,746
Like, well, how do we actually...

994
00:36:04,032 --> 00:36:06,652
Create the solution and the solution elements that

995
00:36:06,652 --> 00:36:09,351
respond to that. And the it sounds like

996
00:36:09,351 --> 00:36:11,255
the the this project cohort cohort that you've

997
00:36:11,255 --> 00:36:13,651
put together, is helping to bridge that a

998
00:36:13,651 --> 00:36:16,030
little bit, give people confidence to move into

999
00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:18,251
that and take action on what they've learned

1000
00:36:18,251 --> 00:36:19,069
from the analysis

1001
00:36:19,697 --> 00:36:21,369
Yeah. That's exactly right. And we and we

1002
00:36:21,369 --> 00:36:22,722
do 1 more thing too that we didn't

1003
00:36:22,722 --> 00:36:25,032
used to. And that is once we know

1004
00:36:25,032 --> 00:36:27,181
the top opportunities, let's say there's 10 of

1005
00:36:27,181 --> 00:36:29,978
them. We go back out to customers, and

1006
00:36:29,978 --> 00:36:32,123
we ask them, I whole variety of questions

1007
00:36:32,123 --> 00:36:35,317
about that particular outcome. Like, why is it

1008
00:36:35,317 --> 00:36:37,311
a problem? What's the root cause? What's your

1009
00:36:37,311 --> 00:36:40,021
workaround around? Things like that. So we really

1010
00:36:40,021 --> 00:36:42,333
have a lot of good background information on

1011
00:36:42,333 --> 00:36:44,260
each on unmet need. So when we go

1012
00:36:44,260 --> 00:36:46,326
into idea aviation, working with the company and

1013
00:36:46,326 --> 00:36:48,710
the team to come up with solutions, they

1014
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:51,492
have a really good knowledge about the problem,

1015
00:36:51,731 --> 00:36:53,731
why it's an issue. Mh. What the root

1016
00:36:53,731 --> 00:36:55,635
causes is and potentially how to fix it.

1017
00:36:56,190 --> 00:36:58,276
But really makes idea radiation

1018
00:36:58,807 --> 00:36:59,125
easy.

1019
00:36:59,997 --> 00:37:01,684
I have to say. Once you have all

1020
00:37:01,684 --> 00:37:03,844
that information coming up with the right solution,

1021
00:37:04,085 --> 00:37:06,164
really isn't that hard. These people

1022
00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,215
Working the companies are very smart. They're not

1023
00:37:09,215 --> 00:37:11,305
lacking ideas or intelligence or creativity.

1024
00:37:11,918 --> 00:37:14,222
They're just lacking a good understanding of the

1025
00:37:14,222 --> 00:37:14,540
problem.

1026
00:37:15,176 --> 00:37:17,741
Yep. Fantastic. Okay. So some good good changes

1027
00:37:17,741 --> 00:37:20,215
there to recognize how can people not just

1028
00:37:20,215 --> 00:37:21,413
put this in the use, but take that

1029
00:37:21,413 --> 00:37:23,328
next step. And I I like the stats

1030
00:37:23,328 --> 00:37:24,845
that you guys collected at 8 86.

1031
00:37:25,258 --> 00:37:26,608
I think you said 86 percent,

1032
00:37:27,481 --> 00:37:29,784
people finding success put this in place, But

1033
00:37:29,784 --> 00:37:31,847
40 percent at the time, were not taking

1034
00:37:31,847 --> 00:37:33,515
action on what they learn on the analysis

1035
00:37:33,594 --> 00:37:36,235
And so now, add it to the project

1036
00:37:36,235 --> 00:37:38,703
cohort to to get there. So very good.

1037
00:37:39,340 --> 00:37:40,853
Lot of good insights. We do have 1

1038
00:37:40,853 --> 00:37:43,177
more question coming up for you. Which was

1039
00:37:43,177 --> 00:37:45,006
sent to me for by listener of this

1040
00:37:45,006 --> 00:37:47,074
podcast as well as an innovation quote I

1041
00:37:47,074 --> 00:37:49,460
want to discuss. But first, I am able

1042
00:37:49,460 --> 00:37:51,541
to... Fund this podcast that's been going on

1043
00:37:51,541 --> 00:37:53,685
now for almost 10 years by the training

1044
00:37:53,685 --> 00:37:55,830
courses that I provide product managers and leaders.

1045
00:37:56,306 --> 00:37:57,657
And the course that I wanna tell you

1046
00:37:57,657 --> 00:38:00,157
about today is focused on fun product management

1047
00:38:00,294 --> 00:38:02,760
leadership skills, which also allows you to earn

1048
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,624
a professional certification from Pd mae. It is

1049
00:38:05,624 --> 00:38:07,851
the training that prepares you for product mastery,

1050
00:38:08,424 --> 00:38:11,217
and really is focused on those 7 research

1051
00:38:11,217 --> 00:38:13,690
back knowledge areas that this podcast is built

1052
00:38:13,690 --> 00:38:16,498
around that you need to understand Most people

1053
00:38:16,498 --> 00:38:18,414
who take this training already have several years

1054
00:38:18,414 --> 00:38:21,925
of experience. They know a lot and the

1055
00:38:21,925 --> 00:38:24,320
rapid product master experience, the Rp rpm experience.

1056
00:38:24,574 --> 00:38:26,166
Is a of course that we'll integrate that

1057
00:38:26,166 --> 00:38:28,555
knowledge and really add to it. If you're

1058
00:38:28,555 --> 00:38:31,023
serious about creating more value for customers, improving

1059
00:38:31,023 --> 00:38:33,108
your team and growing your own career the

1060
00:38:33,347 --> 00:38:35,177
Rpm experience is something you should check out,

1061
00:38:35,416 --> 00:38:37,803
go to product mastery now dot com and

1062
00:38:37,803 --> 00:38:39,713
learn more about the training and get started.

1063
00:38:39,872 --> 00:38:42,514
I hope That's again, a product mastery now

1064
00:38:42,514 --> 00:38:42,991
dot com.

1065
00:38:43,867 --> 00:38:45,777
On to a question from a listener. This

1066
00:38:45,777 --> 00:38:49,079
was sent me by diane s. Who asks

1067
00:38:49,218 --> 00:38:52,094
jobs to be done requires digging deeper into

1068
00:38:52,094 --> 00:38:54,731
what the customer means and not just doing

1069
00:38:54,731 --> 00:38:55,530
what they have said.

1070
00:38:56,343 --> 00:38:58,653
As we are in a more distributed remote

1071
00:38:58,653 --> 00:39:01,441
environment these days, how do you recommend observing

1072
00:39:01,441 --> 00:39:03,454
customers when they may be in different places

1073
00:39:03,671 --> 00:39:04,867
or different location than you.

1074
00:39:06,236 --> 00:39:08,309
Yeah. That's really great question because it brings

1075
00:39:08,309 --> 00:39:09,266
up a couple of issues.

1076
00:39:10,143 --> 00:39:12,853
1 is the concept of observing customers.

1077
00:39:14,222 --> 00:39:16,126
And I've always fought back against this little

1078
00:39:16,126 --> 00:39:16,285
bit.

1079
00:39:17,317 --> 00:39:20,333
When you're observing customers, you're watching what they're

1080
00:39:20,333 --> 00:39:20,650
doing.

1081
00:39:22,176 --> 00:39:23,371
That solution space.

1082
00:39:24,168 --> 00:39:26,876
Right? What you wanna understand is, what are

1083
00:39:26,876 --> 00:39:28,071
they trying to accomplish?

1084
00:39:28,804 --> 00:39:30,085
By doing what they're doing.

1085
00:39:30,885 --> 00:39:31,924
That's problem space.

1086
00:39:32,724 --> 00:39:33,924
And what I'm saying is that,

1087
00:39:34,644 --> 00:39:36,860
it's much easier to train practitioners when you

1088
00:39:36,979 --> 00:39:39,051
just keep them focused in problem space.

1089
00:39:39,689 --> 00:39:41,840
If they have to watch something in their

1090
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,173
in solution space and constantly try to

1091
00:39:45,201 --> 00:39:47,264
take that and translate it back into problem

1092
00:39:47,264 --> 00:39:48,613
space. That's an extra burden.

1093
00:39:49,566 --> 00:39:51,630
We don't generally observe customers.

1094
00:39:52,359 --> 00:39:53,632
In fact, what we'd like to do is

1095
00:39:53,632 --> 00:39:54,928
take them out of their environment

1096
00:39:55,543 --> 00:39:57,953
and put them in room with us and

1097
00:39:58,169 --> 00:40:00,261
begin asking questions about

1098
00:40:00,637 --> 00:40:03,121
the creating the job map. Let's assume we

1099
00:40:03,121 --> 00:40:04,317
have the job app done. Right?

1100
00:40:05,115 --> 00:40:07,188
The first step in the job? What's the

1101
00:40:07,188 --> 00:40:09,123
first thing you're trying to accomplish when you're

1102
00:40:09,421 --> 00:40:12,630
trying to find access... To the portal,

1103
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:14,710
Right? Or whatever the step might be.

1104
00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:17,269
And you just try to collect a set

1105
00:40:17,269 --> 00:40:18,630
of outcomes. What you're trying to do is

1106
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:19,164
to get

1107
00:40:19,844 --> 00:40:20,344
the

1108
00:40:20,644 --> 00:40:21,144
interview

1109
00:40:22,164 --> 00:40:24,885
in a mindset where they're thinking through what

1110
00:40:24,885 --> 00:40:25,925
they are trying to do.

1111
00:40:26,660 --> 00:40:28,260
Not what they're doing. We're trying to take

1112
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:30,739
them out of solution space as well. So

1113
00:40:30,739 --> 00:40:33,460
they're not describing the products you're using or

1114
00:40:33,460 --> 00:40:33,860
how they're...

1115
00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:37,208
Interfacing with it. Again, all solution space.

1116
00:40:38,081 --> 00:40:39,905
The trick is to get them into problem

1117
00:40:39,905 --> 00:40:41,888
space and keep them in problem space,

1118
00:40:42,939 --> 00:40:44,637
So we actually find it easier

1119
00:40:45,256 --> 00:40:47,573
taking them out of their environment and putting

1120
00:40:47,573 --> 00:40:49,331
them in our environment.

1121
00:40:50,784 --> 00:40:52,304
The other thing we do that makes this

1122
00:40:52,304 --> 00:40:52,704
easier,

1123
00:40:53,105 --> 00:40:54,465
and that's been a big difference.

1124
00:40:55,105 --> 00:40:56,724
Made a big difference for us is

1125
00:40:57,744 --> 00:40:59,525
we train them to become

1126
00:41:00,879 --> 00:41:01,757
good interview ease.

1127
00:41:03,115 --> 00:41:05,112
So we we tell them what we're doing.

1128
00:41:05,352 --> 00:41:06,630
Right? We tell them bell,

1129
00:41:07,523 --> 00:41:09,352
the job. Here's the job. We have them

1130
00:41:09,352 --> 00:41:11,102
validate the job for us. This is what

1131
00:41:11,102 --> 00:41:12,295
you trying to accomplish. Yes.

1132
00:41:13,250 --> 00:41:15,000
We have them help us build out the

1133
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:15,557
job map.

1134
00:41:16,289 --> 00:41:18,684
And we validate with more people. And it

1135
00:41:18,684 --> 00:41:20,519
was just the steps that you're going through.

1136
00:41:20,838 --> 00:41:21,078
Yes.

1137
00:41:21,956 --> 00:41:24,032
And then we we get into the outcomes

1138
00:41:24,032 --> 00:41:24,431
as well.

1139
00:41:25,083 --> 00:41:27,570
And something we've done different in the past

1140
00:41:27,786 --> 00:41:30,330
5 years or so. Is what I call

1141
00:41:30,966 --> 00:41:31,602
immersion sessions.

1142
00:41:32,953 --> 00:41:36,016
Whenever I do interviews, my preference is to

1143
00:41:36,154 --> 00:41:38,228
get the same 3 to 5 people,

1144
00:41:38,946 --> 00:41:39,685
book them

1145
00:41:40,142 --> 00:41:42,376
for 2 hour sessions, 4 or 5 of

1146
00:41:42,376 --> 00:41:44,130
them over 2 to 3 week period.

1147
00:41:44,864 --> 00:41:46,781
And work with the same 2 to 3,

1148
00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:48,559
4 or 5 people

1149
00:41:49,338 --> 00:41:51,667
to create... To validate the job step, to

1150
00:41:51,667 --> 00:41:53,490
come up with the job app and to

1151
00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:54,600
create most of the outcomes.

1152
00:41:55,393 --> 00:41:56,289
Now you have

1153
00:41:56,820 --> 00:41:58,723
most of the this built. Most of the

1154
00:41:58,723 --> 00:41:59,852
framework is discovered.

1155
00:42:00,650 --> 00:42:02,803
Then you go out to individuals and my...

1156
00:42:03,122 --> 00:42:04,819
A more diverse set of customers

1157
00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:07,270
to really fill in the gaps. Have them

1158
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:08,727
review what you've already collected

1159
00:42:09,438 --> 00:42:12,699
have them add to any outcomes that might

1160
00:42:12,699 --> 00:42:15,165
not exist already that they have that that

1161
00:42:15,165 --> 00:42:16,063
weren't considered

1162
00:42:16,610 --> 00:42:19,572
And it's more of a collaborative effort with

1163
00:42:19,787 --> 00:42:20,661
the interview weeks.

1164
00:42:21,613 --> 00:42:23,757
Right? And this is interesting.

1165
00:42:24,489 --> 00:42:25,229
A typical

1166
00:42:25,847 --> 00:42:27,605
the old fashioned way. In a typical old

1167
00:42:27,605 --> 00:42:28,404
fashioned interview,

1168
00:42:29,203 --> 00:42:31,681
neither the interview e or the interview were

1169
00:42:31,681 --> 00:42:33,450
know what input they're looking for.

1170
00:42:34,484 --> 00:42:36,313
Think about that. Right? They they don't know

1171
00:42:36,313 --> 00:42:38,302
what they're trying to collect. They're just collecting

1172
00:42:38,302 --> 00:42:40,528
stuff. We're exploring. Yep. We're exploring.

1173
00:42:41,165 --> 00:42:43,172
They're Well, we're flipping that around. We know

1174
00:42:43,172 --> 00:42:45,004
what in information we're trying to collect. We're

1175
00:42:45,004 --> 00:42:45,743
trying to collect

1176
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:47,952
outcome statements in into very specific format.

1177
00:42:48,670 --> 00:42:50,581
And we show them that, and we teach

1178
00:42:50,581 --> 00:42:53,135
them that. So within a half hour, so

1179
00:42:53,135 --> 00:42:54,482
they're talking our language.

1180
00:42:55,353 --> 00:42:58,285
Right? Now both parties know what information would.

1181
00:42:58,460 --> 00:43:01,336
Looking for, and we can collaboratively work together

1182
00:43:01,336 --> 00:43:02,295
to get the information.

1183
00:43:03,094 --> 00:43:04,453
And that's why I like taking that same

1184
00:43:04,453 --> 00:43:05,273
group of people

1185
00:43:05,811 --> 00:43:07,270
for a few sessions

1186
00:43:07,664 --> 00:43:09,902
because they're learning. That they're learning to speak

1187
00:43:09,902 --> 00:43:11,739
outcome language, and they can really help us

1188
00:43:11,739 --> 00:43:13,338
build out the model and the framework.

1189
00:43:14,217 --> 00:43:15,895
And that goes a long way. Instead of

1190
00:43:15,895 --> 00:43:18,469
doing... 31 on 1 interviews for an hour

1191
00:43:18,469 --> 00:43:19,590
and try to piece it together.

1192
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:22,150
Working with the same group people for short

1193
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:23,750
period of time, and then Ballard didn't even

1194
00:43:23,750 --> 00:43:24,469
more people later.

1195
00:43:25,523 --> 00:43:27,041
It's proven to me but be a much

1196
00:43:27,041 --> 00:43:30,238
more effective approach. I suspect so if you're

1197
00:43:30,238 --> 00:43:32,315
doing these emerging sessions, you've said 4 to

1198
00:43:32,315 --> 00:43:32,875
5 people,

1199
00:43:33,447 --> 00:43:35,137
involved in that deeper dives

1200
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:37,494
that some people say, 4 or 5 people.

1201
00:43:37,652 --> 00:43:39,954
That's all. I suspect that you don't very

1202
00:43:39,954 --> 00:43:43,146
often find anything that meaningful when you go

1203
00:43:43,146 --> 00:43:44,419
past that group. That that's just my guess.

1204
00:43:44,658 --> 00:43:46,726
That when you do get others involved, review

1205
00:43:46,726 --> 00:43:47,283
the findings,

1206
00:43:48,476 --> 00:43:50,067
I guess the your 4 to 5 actually

1207
00:43:50,067 --> 00:43:52,070
gives you the majority if not all of

1208
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:52,945
the information.

1209
00:43:53,819 --> 00:43:55,250
Yeah. We find it... It's in the 80

1210
00:43:55,250 --> 00:43:56,681
percent range. Yeah. Yeah.

1211
00:43:57,635 --> 00:43:59,405
And that's right. And then what we do

1212
00:43:59,405 --> 00:44:01,085
from there is we'll even interview people in

1213
00:44:01,085 --> 00:44:03,565
different countries because people... We we're we're we

1214
00:44:03,565 --> 00:44:05,485
work with lot of global companies. And if

1215
00:44:05,485 --> 00:44:07,485
they want us to be able to hand

1216
00:44:07,485 --> 00:44:09,489
them, a set of outcomes that have been

1217
00:44:09,489 --> 00:44:09,989
validated

1218
00:44:10,363 --> 00:44:10,601
worldwide.

1219
00:44:11,634 --> 00:44:13,699
So we'll collect most of the inputs in

1220
00:44:13,699 --> 00:44:15,844
the Us in English and then translate them

1221
00:44:15,844 --> 00:44:18,090
into language. Is and go out to those

1222
00:44:18,090 --> 00:44:21,521
other geographies and validate that there's nothing missing

1223
00:44:21,521 --> 00:44:23,197
and that they're correct. And that they understand

1224
00:44:23,197 --> 00:44:24,968
what they mean. And things like that.

1225
00:44:26,246 --> 00:44:26,746
And

1226
00:44:27,205 --> 00:44:28,883
that makes it a heck of lot easier.

1227
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,767
Okay. So So today, you're focused on these

1228
00:44:33,767 --> 00:44:36,956
deep dive interviews. You are collaborating with them

1229
00:44:36,956 --> 00:44:39,028
really over the process. That this is what

1230
00:44:39,028 --> 00:44:40,638
a job is to us. This was what

1231
00:44:40,638 --> 00:44:42,553
we think you're trying to accomplish. Let's, you

1232
00:44:42,553 --> 00:44:45,027
know, refine that. This is what outcomes look

1233
00:44:45,027 --> 00:44:46,782
like to us. This is our our job

1234
00:44:46,782 --> 00:44:47,581
map of steps.

1235
00:44:48,235 --> 00:44:50,335
So and substance kinda c creating

1236
00:44:50,875 --> 00:44:51,375
the

1237
00:44:51,675 --> 00:44:53,914
understanding of the problem with the customer.

1238
00:44:54,394 --> 00:44:55,215
The this

1239
00:44:55,848 --> 00:44:58,081
just in contrast to some other things that

1240
00:44:58,081 --> 00:45:00,315
that were done in the past. My my

1241
00:45:00,315 --> 00:45:02,628
real introduction that I... At least what I

1242
00:45:02,628 --> 00:45:04,861
call, and my real introduction to innovation was

1243
00:45:04,861 --> 00:45:06,234
stumbling in to eth pornography.

1244
00:45:06,795 --> 00:45:08,394
And didn't know what that term was or

1245
00:45:08,394 --> 00:45:10,875
anything. And I have found in my past

1246
00:45:10,875 --> 00:45:14,164
high value and user observations And 1 of

1247
00:45:14,164 --> 00:45:16,073
the case studies that I I very much

1248
00:45:16,073 --> 00:45:18,698
like for mere work because it's tangible it

1249
00:45:18,698 --> 00:45:21,641
is the skill saw and how construction workers

1250
00:45:21,641 --> 00:45:23,413
tend to use skill solves and and then

1251
00:45:23,413 --> 00:45:25,970
homeowners as well. And that did use eth.

1252
00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:27,668
Right? That was observing

1253
00:45:28,367 --> 00:45:30,045
trades, trades people on sites,

1254
00:45:31,176 --> 00:45:33,238
interacting with the skilled saw. Yeah. And so

1255
00:45:33,238 --> 00:45:34,983
clearly, there was value in that, but this

1256
00:45:34,983 --> 00:45:36,728
is like, 1 of these examples of, like,

1257
00:45:37,125 --> 00:45:39,284
here's something that we did that worked and

1258
00:45:39,284 --> 00:45:40,882
now we think this is working better. Is

1259
00:45:40,882 --> 00:45:43,440
that what we're saying? Yeah. That's right. And

1260
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:44,798
and here's look the nuance.

1261
00:45:45,677 --> 00:45:46,557
When we did those

1262
00:45:47,196 --> 00:45:47,516
observational,

1263
00:45:48,235 --> 00:45:48,610
research,

1264
00:45:49,365 --> 00:45:51,193
interviews put on the circular side,

1265
00:45:51,989 --> 00:45:53,500
we know what we're looking for.

1266
00:45:54,612 --> 00:45:56,442
Right? So we know we're looking for outcomes.

1267
00:45:56,855 --> 00:45:58,453
So we're not I'm just watching them. Right?

1268
00:45:59,572 --> 00:46:01,090
We're asking them why are they doing each

1269
00:46:01,090 --> 00:46:02,289
thing? You know, what are they trying to

1270
00:46:02,289 --> 00:46:04,207
achieve next and so on. So we know

1271
00:46:04,207 --> 00:46:06,285
how to interview them despite the fact that

1272
00:46:06,285 --> 00:46:09,415
we're watching them in solution space. So we're

1273
00:46:09,415 --> 00:46:12,312
we're almost ignoring the solution space space aspect

1274
00:46:12,371 --> 00:46:14,617
and trying to under stand everything happening in

1275
00:46:14,617 --> 00:46:16,842
problem space in documenting that.

1276
00:46:17,716 --> 00:46:19,623
But what we find is for most practitioners,

1277
00:46:20,179 --> 00:46:20,497
interviewers,

1278
00:46:21,069 --> 00:46:21,628
that's hard.

1279
00:46:22,186 --> 00:46:24,921
It's, it's it's actually much easier just to

1280
00:46:25,219 --> 00:46:26,974
take the people put them in your space

1281
00:46:26,974 --> 00:46:28,730
and just haven't them slowly go through.

1282
00:46:29,625 --> 00:46:31,224
The the job they're trying to get done.

1283
00:46:31,625 --> 00:46:33,464
And when I say slowly, and in in

1284
00:46:33,464 --> 00:46:34,505
my instructions I say,

1285
00:46:35,224 --> 00:46:36,505
this is in super,

1286
00:46:37,078 --> 00:46:37,578
slow

1287
00:46:38,112 --> 00:46:38,271
motion.

1288
00:46:38,987 --> 00:46:40,974
If we're gonna go through from the start

1289
00:46:40,974 --> 00:46:42,485
of this job to the very end it's

1290
00:46:42,485 --> 00:46:43,758
gonna take us 3 hours.

1291
00:46:44,553 --> 00:46:46,302
It's very slow. I may write down 1

1292
00:46:46,302 --> 00:46:48,941
statement there 5 minutes. Just it's a slow

1293
00:46:48,941 --> 00:46:49,418
process.

1294
00:46:50,292 --> 00:46:51,961
And that's what we work through. Right. Right.

1295
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,630
But in 3 hours, we have,

1296
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:56,213
bunch of outcomes statements and,

1297
00:46:56,748 --> 00:46:57,385
off we go.

1298
00:46:58,260 --> 00:47:00,011
So it's that... It's... That's kinda of new

1299
00:47:00,011 --> 00:47:00,250
ones.

1300
00:47:01,046 --> 00:47:03,115
Yeah. Important to stun the distinction.

1301
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:06,239
Bunch with that, that... To me to kinda

1302
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,914
suggest that let me get your opinion on

1303
00:47:07,914 --> 00:47:09,668
this. It seems like it could be helpful

1304
00:47:09,668 --> 00:47:12,380
to have people doing the interviews, whether it's

1305
00:47:12,380 --> 00:47:14,156
that focus on solution space

1306
00:47:14,707 --> 00:47:17,887
observations interviews of the circular law example, or

1307
00:47:17,887 --> 00:47:20,352
today, your deeper dive merchant sessions. That have

1308
00:47:20,352 --> 00:47:22,022
less experience with the domain.

1309
00:47:22,673 --> 00:47:24,506
Because I have found that people that really

1310
00:47:24,506 --> 00:47:25,724
understand the domain well

1311
00:47:26,339 --> 00:47:28,332
that know all about circular cells, For example,

1312
00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:30,817
tend to make assumptions about what people need.

1313
00:47:31,215 --> 00:47:34,323
Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely true. Yeah. If

1314
00:47:34,323 --> 00:47:36,554
you're not familiar with the space, then going

1315
00:47:36,554 --> 00:47:37,271
out there watching,

1316
00:47:37,844 --> 00:47:39,120
What we do a lot of times too

1317
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,954
and, in half few years is, you, we're

1318
00:47:40,954 --> 00:47:43,666
gonna watch videos. Go to Youtube, we'll go

1319
00:47:43,666 --> 00:47:44,644
see what next

1320
00:47:45,022 --> 00:47:45,261
does.

1321
00:47:45,979 --> 00:47:48,699
You know, for example, and and there's so

1322
00:47:48,699 --> 00:47:50,284
much information and now with,

1323
00:47:51,156 --> 00:47:53,771
Ai and Chad And so on. There's so

1324
00:47:53,771 --> 00:47:55,014
much information out there. And

1325
00:47:55,927 --> 00:47:57,673
and, we've been experimenting with that for over

1326
00:47:57,673 --> 00:47:58,070
a year,

1327
00:47:59,261 --> 00:48:01,087
with the Ai. I mean, and,

1328
00:48:01,801 --> 00:48:03,468
what we find is that it's a useful

1329
00:48:03,468 --> 00:48:05,949
tool for a savvy practitioner.

1330
00:48:06,746 --> 00:48:10,032
It Kim prompts help generate a job app

1331
00:48:10,169 --> 00:48:12,102
and help generate a set of outcomes

1332
00:48:12,492 --> 00:48:15,191
Are they real? Who the heck knows. Is

1333
00:48:15,191 --> 00:48:18,367
is our client going to be confident that

1334
00:48:18,367 --> 00:48:19,716
they're gonna get a great result if we

1335
00:48:19,716 --> 00:48:21,644
don't talk to any actual customers.

1336
00:48:22,282 --> 00:48:24,356
No nobody has said that yet. Nobody said,

1337
00:48:24,675 --> 00:48:26,589
it's okay not to talk to because that...

1338
00:48:26,909 --> 00:48:27,626
So, you know,

1339
00:48:28,743 --> 00:48:29,641
it's a good

1340
00:48:30,192 --> 00:48:32,654
it's good way to get some background on

1341
00:48:32,654 --> 00:48:33,313
a topic

1342
00:48:33,925 --> 00:48:36,148
and to make sure you're covering everything.

1343
00:48:36,862 --> 00:48:39,110
I'd I'd say that's it's it's huge. But

1344
00:48:39,498 --> 00:48:41,488
and maybe there may it's sometime soon where

1345
00:48:41,488 --> 00:48:43,796
we could be so confident that it produces

1346
00:48:43,796 --> 00:48:46,582
better results than a practitioner. But what we

1347
00:48:46,582 --> 00:48:49,409
find is a train practitioner armed with Ai

1348
00:48:49,546 --> 00:48:50,902
is a really good tool set.

1349
00:48:52,178 --> 00:48:53,454
For you. I think we'll see more and

1350
00:48:53,454 --> 00:48:55,129
more of of that going on where we

1351
00:48:55,129 --> 00:48:58,244
have our Ai partner on. Yeah, as practitioners.

1352
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:00,703
You, okay? Thank you for responding that, Diana,

1353
00:49:00,941 --> 00:49:02,447
Thank you for the question. Listeners if you

1354
00:49:02,447 --> 00:49:04,485
want to submit a question to

1355
00:49:04,922 --> 00:49:06,993
future guests, just follow me on Linkedin, and

1356
00:49:06,993 --> 00:49:08,347
you'll see who's coming up.

1357
00:49:09,143 --> 00:49:11,292
Innovation quotes we also love? What's the quote

1358
00:49:11,292 --> 00:49:12,407
that you have for and what does it

1359
00:49:12,407 --> 00:49:14,487
mean to you? It's funny because I've had

1360
00:49:14,487 --> 00:49:16,393
this quote in my mind for years. I

1361
00:49:16,393 --> 00:49:17,901
lived by it, but I looked up like

1362
00:49:17,901 --> 00:49:18,639
the exact

1363
00:49:19,330 --> 00:49:19,965
version of the quote.

1364
00:49:20,933 --> 00:49:23,870
At by Einstein, and there's 3 versions of

1365
00:49:23,870 --> 00:49:25,798
it because now with chat Gp,

1366
00:49:26,331 --> 00:49:28,077
it's all the variations that have happened over

1367
00:49:28,077 --> 00:49:30,956
time. But the quote is If I11I would

1368
00:49:30,956 --> 00:49:32,791
to saved the world, I would spend 55

1369
00:49:32,791 --> 00:49:35,344
minutes to defining the problem in only 5

1370
00:49:35,344 --> 00:49:36,621
minutes finding the solution.

1371
00:49:37,830 --> 00:49:39,653
Which is pretty much what we've talked about

1372
00:49:39,653 --> 00:49:41,952
for all this time here today. Mh. Right?

1373
00:49:42,666 --> 00:49:44,727
Is is how do you make that happen

1374
00:49:44,727 --> 00:49:45,855
in of innovation.

1375
00:49:46,968 --> 00:49:48,081
How do you define the problem?

1376
00:49:48,876 --> 00:49:50,864
Right? Hit this very granular level?

1377
00:49:51,421 --> 00:49:53,329
And then, of course, once we have the

1378
00:49:53,329 --> 00:49:55,175
problem well defined and you know what you're

1379
00:49:55,175 --> 00:49:57,815
idea round coming up with the solution truly

1380
00:49:57,815 --> 00:50:00,614
is easy. I've seen it happen. You mentioned

1381
00:50:00,614 --> 00:50:01,494
the Boss example.

1382
00:50:02,215 --> 00:50:04,510
When they were presented with their 14... You're

1383
00:50:04,869 --> 00:50:07,104
unmet needs. They solved all of them 3

1384
00:50:07,104 --> 00:50:07,423
hours.

1385
00:50:08,621 --> 00:50:09,020
That's it.

1386
00:50:09,738 --> 00:50:11,415
And if they said, we had a lot

1387
00:50:11,415 --> 00:50:13,751
of these ideas before. The problem is

1388
00:50:14,144 --> 00:50:16,222
we've had thousands of ideas before. We didn't

1389
00:50:16,222 --> 00:50:18,619
know that these were 14 that really meant

1390
00:50:18,619 --> 00:50:19,898
anything to the customer.

1391
00:50:20,618 --> 00:50:22,775
But get there they were all prioritized. So

1392
00:50:22,856 --> 00:50:24,465
I I lived by that quote, and I'd

1393
00:50:24,465 --> 00:50:25,102
love that thinking.

1394
00:50:26,215 --> 00:50:28,204
That... That's excellent. Yeah. If there's so many

1395
00:50:28,204 --> 00:50:29,477
things that we could do, it's hard to

1396
00:50:29,477 --> 00:50:31,799
know what to actually take cash sean. Yeah.

1397
00:50:32,594 --> 00:50:34,106
Very good. Thanks for the quote. It is

1398
00:50:34,106 --> 00:50:36,038
1 of my favorites as well to clearly

1399
00:50:36,333 --> 00:50:38,242
understand what the problem is before we try

1400
00:50:38,242 --> 00:50:39,276
to move into solution.

1401
00:50:39,928 --> 00:50:42,000
It's probably pretty easy for people to find

1402
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,911
your books? I just suspect we can get

1403
00:50:43,911 --> 00:50:45,983
go to Amazon and make that happen. But,

1404
00:50:46,382 --> 00:50:47,975
how can people find out more about the

1405
00:50:47,975 --> 00:50:49,250
work that you're doing? And the work is.

1406
00:50:49,424 --> 00:50:52,218
Strategy doing, resources you have. Well, it's a

1407
00:50:52,218 --> 00:50:54,294
couple things. Oh, I have a free book,

1408
00:50:54,693 --> 00:50:56,050
not the 1 there, but the other book,

1409
00:50:56,130 --> 00:50:58,285
the jobs be done 32 practice.

1410
00:50:59,017 --> 00:51:00,843
If you go to jobs be done book

1411
00:51:00,843 --> 00:51:04,019
dot com, all hyphen jobs, hyphen to be

1412
00:51:04,019 --> 00:51:04,972
done brooke dot com,

1413
00:51:05,766 --> 00:51:08,643
you can download. A ebook version of that

1414
00:51:08,643 --> 00:51:10,632
or an audiobook version of that for free.

1415
00:51:11,348 --> 00:51:13,177
So that's a great starting point. Other than

1416
00:51:13,177 --> 00:51:15,263
that, there's plenty of material on our website

1417
00:51:15,263 --> 00:51:17,653
at strat dot com. There's a resource center

1418
00:51:17,653 --> 00:51:19,724
there that has access to tons of white

1419
00:51:19,724 --> 00:51:20,122
papers,

1420
00:51:21,093 --> 00:51:23,162
there's videos out there. 1 it's my favorite

1421
00:51:23,162 --> 00:51:24,197
if you go to Youtube,

1422
00:51:25,231 --> 00:51:26,823
it's what is jobs be done that's an

1423
00:51:26,823 --> 00:51:27,699
8 minute video.

1424
00:51:28,414 --> 00:51:29,551
It just summarizes,

1425
00:51:30,976 --> 00:51:33,360
In a nice way, I think how a

1426
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,484
Jo done helps you think differently about innovation

1427
00:51:36,938 --> 00:51:39,323
and brings predictability to the process.

1428
00:51:40,295 --> 00:51:41,815
And, of course, if you just wanna contact

1429
00:51:41,815 --> 00:51:43,355
me, I'm at all at

1430
00:51:43,894 --> 00:51:46,135
dot com. That makes that easy. People can

1431
00:51:46,135 --> 00:51:46,934
reach out directly.

1432
00:51:47,494 --> 00:51:50,147
Okay. Tony really appreciate the information. So glad

1433
00:51:50,147 --> 00:51:52,305
you could spend the 5 hundredth episode with

1434
00:51:52,305 --> 00:51:54,383
us. I was around the house the other

1435
00:51:54,383 --> 00:51:56,621
day that this is the longest running podcast

1436
00:51:56,621 --> 00:51:59,425
for product managers. My son did the... And,

1437
00:51:59,504 --> 00:52:01,096
of course, with the Chat Ep and typed

1438
00:52:01,096 --> 00:52:02,766
it in. What is the longest running product...

1439
00:52:03,721 --> 00:52:06,460
Podcast for product managers. Low and behold, Chat

1440
00:52:06,673 --> 00:52:09,370
believes it is also that this podcast. So

1441
00:52:09,370 --> 00:52:10,004
that was great.

1442
00:52:10,718 --> 00:52:12,224
I got it right. And that's perfect. I

1443
00:52:12,224 --> 00:52:14,618
got it right. Again, congratulations on that. I

1444
00:52:14,618 --> 00:52:16,227
know that is quite a feat. And perseverance

1445
00:52:16,441 --> 00:52:18,526
is and their key to success. So

1446
00:52:18,977 --> 00:52:20,498
good to see you hanging in there. Oh,

1447
00:52:20,658 --> 00:52:23,204
thank you. And likewise, appreciate that you have

1448
00:52:23,204 --> 00:52:25,432
not to given up on helping organizations to

1449
00:52:25,432 --> 00:52:27,502
get better at innovation and that you are

1450
00:52:27,502 --> 00:52:29,253
continuously learning how to do that better and

1451
00:52:29,253 --> 00:52:29,571
your team.

1452
00:52:30,381 --> 00:52:31,835
And really excited to see

1453
00:52:32,288 --> 00:52:34,752
organizations that have embraced that to, see such

1454
00:52:34,752 --> 00:52:36,818
benefit from it. And, no. Do the... The...

1455
00:52:37,056 --> 00:52:38,248
These are the things that we need to

1456
00:52:38,248 --> 00:52:40,489
be doing just great satisfaction for our customer

1457
00:52:40,489 --> 00:52:42,954
and and generate new value for them. So

1458
00:52:42,954 --> 00:52:45,498
great body of work. Thanks, Chad. Appreciate it.

1459
00:52:45,895 --> 00:52:48,465
And listeners you've can find the written version

1460
00:52:48,465 --> 00:52:50,965
of everything we discussed as an article at

1461
00:52:51,025 --> 00:52:53,985
product mastery now dot com slash 500.

1462
00:52:54,385 --> 00:52:55,905
As always, keep innovating.

1463
00:52:56,557 --> 00:52:58,779
Thank you for listening to product mastery now.

1464
00:52:59,176 --> 00:53:02,135
We're product leaders and managers gain product mastery

1465
00:53:02,349 --> 00:53:03,381
through practical knowledge.

1466
00:53:04,033 --> 00:53:05,331
Influence and confidence.

1467
00:53:05,867 --> 00:53:08,498
By listening, you are becoming a product master,

1468
00:53:08,897 --> 00:53:12,860
creating products customers love. Find additional resources at

1469
00:53:13,058 --> 00:53:14,887
product mastery now dot com.

1470
00:53:15,523 --> 00:53:16,398
Keep innovating.