1 00:00:00,119 --> 00:00:02,197 Welcome to product mastery now where we simplify 2 00:00:02,197 --> 00:00:05,393 the 7 knowledge areas for product mastery. These 3 00:00:05,393 --> 00:00:07,550 are the product management practices that elevate your 4 00:00:07,550 --> 00:00:09,644 career and help you also create products your 5 00:00:09,644 --> 00:00:12,044 customers will love. To see all 7 areas 6 00:00:12,044 --> 00:00:14,445 simply go to product now dot com, and 7 00:00:14,445 --> 00:00:17,170 you'll find more details I'm Chad Mc, a 8 00:00:17,170 --> 00:00:18,282 product management professor, 9 00:00:19,076 --> 00:00:20,267 practitioner and your host. 10 00:00:21,062 --> 00:00:23,365 Today, we're talking about the subject of cycle 11 00:00:23,365 --> 00:00:23,762 management. 12 00:00:24,334 --> 00:00:26,331 Which is a topic covered in the innovation 13 00:00:26,331 --> 00:00:28,728 management knowledge area. And you'll learn what the 14 00:00:28,728 --> 00:00:31,698 phases of your product lifecycle r. How that 15 00:00:31,698 --> 00:00:33,453 life lifecycle might be different for different sorts 16 00:00:33,453 --> 00:00:35,766 of products like Sas products versus hardware products. 17 00:00:36,324 --> 00:00:37,999 And also how you can better navigate the 18 00:00:37,999 --> 00:00:39,116 life cycles for your products. 19 00:00:39,754 --> 00:00:41,760 Joining us is John Ro. He has an 20 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,220 extensive background in new product development that spans 21 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:48,347 marketing, engineering, verification validation and regulatory compile compliance. 22 00:00:48,919 --> 00:00:51,151 With deep experience in medical technologies. 23 00:00:51,709 --> 00:00:53,782 He was most recently a principal product manager 24 00:00:53,782 --> 00:00:56,673 at Is osaka, a nonprofit organization helping It 25 00:00:56,731 --> 00:00:57,231 professionals 26 00:00:57,543 --> 00:00:59,928 grow their skills in digital trust, and he's 27 00:00:59,928 --> 00:01:02,234 starting a new role as we speak, not 28 00:01:02,234 --> 00:01:04,620 to be revealed yet. John also has served 29 00:01:04,620 --> 00:01:07,006 in roles for the Pittsburgh Pd h after 30 00:01:07,006 --> 00:01:10,140 this the product development management association where the 31 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:12,380 7 knowledge areas has come from, and he 32 00:01:12,380 --> 00:01:14,060 also served... In 1 of those roles was 33 00:01:14,060 --> 00:01:16,620 the chapter president among others. If you're listening 34 00:01:16,620 --> 00:01:18,779 this podcasting and you rather watch what's going 35 00:01:18,779 --> 00:01:21,320 on. Simply go to our Youtube channel, do 36 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:23,385 a search at Youtube for product mastery right 37 00:01:23,385 --> 00:01:25,784 now, and you'll find it. Also, we create 38 00:01:25,784 --> 00:01:27,932 a written detailed summary of everything we talked 39 00:01:27,932 --> 00:01:30,159 about along with a 1 page action guide 40 00:01:30,159 --> 00:01:32,161 to help you put into action some of 41 00:01:32,161 --> 00:01:33,588 the key takeaways so that John will share. 42 00:01:34,143 --> 00:01:36,282 To find those resources go to product mastering 43 00:01:36,282 --> 00:01:39,056 dot com slash 498. 44 00:01:39,867 --> 00:01:41,540 I'm so thankful you are listening to this 45 00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:43,452 podcast and I fund this podcast by the 46 00:01:43,452 --> 00:01:46,081 training courses I provide for product managers and 47 00:01:46,081 --> 00:01:48,471 leaders to prepare for their next career step. 48 00:01:49,044 --> 00:01:51,029 There are 3 training programs. The first 1 49 00:01:51,029 --> 00:01:53,014 is to help you become a more effective 50 00:01:53,014 --> 00:01:53,729 product manager. 51 00:01:54,284 --> 00:01:56,111 The second 1 is to help people move 52 00:01:56,111 --> 00:01:58,906 into leading innovation in their organization. And the 53 00:01:58,906 --> 00:02:00,496 third 1 is for senior leaders to learn 54 00:02:00,496 --> 00:02:03,437 how to better support product innovation. To prepare 55 00:02:03,437 --> 00:02:05,606 for your career growth and that of your 56 00:02:05,663 --> 00:02:05,822 organization, 57 00:02:06,473 --> 00:02:08,623 go to product mastery now dot com to 58 00:02:08,623 --> 00:02:09,180 get started. 59 00:02:09,817 --> 00:02:11,170 John, thanks so much for joining us. 60 00:02:12,046 --> 00:02:13,638 Alright, great to be here. Thanks for having 61 00:02:13,638 --> 00:02:13,957 me chad. 62 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:17,072 So we've both been associated with Pd Mae 63 00:02:17,072 --> 00:02:19,139 for a bit. You reminded me that we 64 00:02:19,139 --> 00:02:21,443 met a few years ago at the, annual 65 00:02:21,443 --> 00:02:21,943 conference 66 00:02:22,334 --> 00:02:24,249 that year it was in Florida. We have 67 00:02:24,249 --> 00:02:26,324 1 coming up in Saint. Louis in September. 68 00:02:26,883 --> 00:02:28,958 And anyone that wants to check that out. 69 00:02:29,357 --> 00:02:30,155 I'll I'll be there for sure. 70 00:02:30,807 --> 00:02:32,712 I think it's what September fourteenth, I think 71 00:02:32,712 --> 00:02:34,856 it starts. Just go to pd mae dot 72 00:02:34,856 --> 00:02:37,976 0RG and you'll find details on that. But 73 00:02:38,031 --> 00:02:40,428 today, we're gonna talk about the the thing 74 00:02:40,428 --> 00:02:43,445 of life cycle management. Right? And I think 75 00:02:43,445 --> 00:02:46,065 of the life cycle as what happens after 76 00:02:46,065 --> 00:02:48,222 we introduce a project. Right? So the the 77 00:02:48,222 --> 00:02:48,460 product... 78 00:02:49,095 --> 00:02:51,395 The project gets made makes the product for 79 00:02:51,395 --> 00:02:53,299 us. And then it's time to let customers 80 00:02:53,299 --> 00:02:55,044 know about this. And that's kind of that 81 00:02:55,044 --> 00:02:55,574 phase of 82 00:02:56,092 --> 00:02:57,604 introduction, and then hopefully, we see growth in 83 00:02:57,604 --> 00:02:58,263 the marketplace. 84 00:02:58,878 --> 00:03:00,947 Over time, we see competitors take action, we 85 00:03:00,947 --> 00:03:03,096 call that maturity. They're coming in and where 86 00:03:03,096 --> 00:03:04,608 our growth is slowing down in the marketplace. 87 00:03:04,847 --> 00:03:06,850 Our sales are going down. And then at 88 00:03:06,850 --> 00:03:08,678 some point, we reach declining sales. 89 00:03:09,234 --> 00:03:10,506 And then finally, 90 00:03:10,983 --> 00:03:13,368 if we're smart will retire the the product 91 00:03:13,368 --> 00:03:15,791 from the marketplace and not make it available 92 00:03:15,848 --> 00:03:17,519 anymore. I say for smart, a lot of 93 00:03:17,519 --> 00:03:19,589 organizations don't do that step. But there's lots 94 00:03:19,589 --> 00:03:21,419 of there's other ways to think about this 95 00:03:21,419 --> 00:03:22,158 life cycle 96 00:03:22,549 --> 00:03:26,211 And you're involved in teaching this body of 97 00:03:26,211 --> 00:03:28,361 knowledge from Pd mae to 2 people. You 98 00:03:28,361 --> 00:03:30,192 do that through your chapter and other sources 99 00:03:30,192 --> 00:03:32,439 as well. And I'm... I based on your 100 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:34,352 experience and how you think about this, can 101 00:03:34,352 --> 00:03:36,027 you describe cycle tests? 102 00:03:37,781 --> 00:03:40,349 Yeah. So I think initially, how you described 103 00:03:40,349 --> 00:03:42,509 it is where your head goes. Right? So 104 00:03:42,509 --> 00:03:43,650 traditionally, you had 105 00:03:43,949 --> 00:03:46,669 physical products that that needed to kinda follow 106 00:03:46,669 --> 00:03:47,810 the... That sequence 107 00:03:48,123 --> 00:03:50,430 and when I got into medical devices, that's 108 00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:52,339 what we did. And and not only, 109 00:03:52,817 --> 00:03:54,828 whether it's a physical device or 110 00:03:55,219 --> 00:03:57,856 or software. It's the type of domain. So, 111 00:03:57,936 --> 00:04:00,114 you know, you're much more constrained in regulated 112 00:04:00,333 --> 00:04:02,251 environments as far as what you can do 113 00:04:02,251 --> 00:04:05,141 once the product's launch. So even small updates 114 00:04:05,141 --> 00:04:07,078 and things like that and something like medical 115 00:04:07,535 --> 00:04:09,131 would would look very different 116 00:04:09,530 --> 00:04:11,126 than in some other domain. 117 00:04:12,175 --> 00:04:14,558 And so initially, yes. And and we teach 118 00:04:14,558 --> 00:04:17,759 life cycle and innovation processes 2 separate 119 00:04:18,212 --> 00:04:20,595 classes for the Pd a, by you, knowledge 120 00:04:20,595 --> 00:04:22,676 its workshops. But as you get into that, 121 00:04:22,835 --> 00:04:25,242 you start to see all this overlap and 122 00:04:26,014 --> 00:04:28,716 that where the the life cycle and the 123 00:04:28,716 --> 00:04:30,146 product development process. 124 00:04:30,798 --> 00:04:32,469 Start to become 1 when you get the 125 00:04:32,469 --> 00:04:34,958 into software in Saas. Right? So 126 00:04:35,731 --> 00:04:37,902 it's interesting as far as how you manage 127 00:04:38,134 --> 00:04:39,653 manage things and how you do your job 128 00:04:39,653 --> 00:04:41,730 as a product manager, how you work with 129 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:44,527 the organization, Right? To manage your products. Right? 130 00:04:44,687 --> 00:04:46,865 So you don't always have a big bang 131 00:04:47,019 --> 00:04:49,955 right, launch, like, with the physical products, you 132 00:04:49,955 --> 00:04:51,939 can kinda ease things out into the market. 133 00:04:52,494 --> 00:04:54,796 You can use the software itself as part 134 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:55,351 of your research. 135 00:04:56,003 --> 00:04:58,635 Right? Things like concierge general p's and fake 136 00:04:58,635 --> 00:05:00,390 doors and things like that. Just to get 137 00:05:00,390 --> 00:05:01,985 just to gauge interest. Right? You can have 138 00:05:01,985 --> 00:05:03,580 people sign up for things and... And you're 139 00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:05,436 now doing research with prototypes 140 00:05:05,750 --> 00:05:08,149 everything starts to get blurred and it it 141 00:05:08,149 --> 00:05:09,370 makes for a really 142 00:05:09,829 --> 00:05:10,329 interesting 143 00:05:10,709 --> 00:05:12,789 perspective and on how you do your job 144 00:05:12,789 --> 00:05:14,089 and how you need to 145 00:05:14,484 --> 00:05:17,119 get kinda navigate things. Yeah. Well let's talk 146 00:05:17,119 --> 00:05:18,955 about that blurring a little bit. Most of 147 00:05:18,955 --> 00:05:21,589 my product work has been involved new to 148 00:05:21,589 --> 00:05:23,366 the world sort of things. Right? Something 149 00:05:23,919 --> 00:05:25,837 truly new products in the since they did 150 00:05:25,837 --> 00:05:29,034 not exist before. But most product managers are 151 00:05:29,034 --> 00:05:31,910 involved in, making something better, Right? Taking an 152 00:05:31,910 --> 00:05:34,075 existing product moving it from the current version 153 00:05:34,075 --> 00:05:36,221 to the next version, which we also call 154 00:05:36,221 --> 00:05:39,083 new product development. It's just... But it... It's 155 00:05:39,083 --> 00:05:41,467 being built upon. It's new in that sense. 156 00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:44,349 And as you say the... What we think 157 00:05:44,349 --> 00:05:45,486 of as the process 158 00:05:45,942 --> 00:05:48,513 for making something new. That applies 159 00:05:48,969 --> 00:05:50,562 anywhere we happen to be. Right? If it's 160 00:05:50,562 --> 00:05:51,062 the 161 00:05:51,374 --> 00:05:54,011 new insight, flash of lightning. We we we 162 00:05:54,011 --> 00:05:55,449 understand a customer problem that no 1 has 163 00:05:55,449 --> 00:05:57,687 solved before. We have a process to take 164 00:05:57,687 --> 00:05:59,819 that from idea through business case to 165 00:06:00,257 --> 00:06:02,327 developing a solution. Right and and making it 166 00:06:02,327 --> 00:06:04,795 real for people. And then as I described 167 00:06:04,795 --> 00:06:07,103 the life cycle, the phases of of the 168 00:06:07,103 --> 00:06:09,850 life cycle, I started when that product is 169 00:06:09,908 --> 00:06:11,663 introduced to the market. The first time. 170 00:06:12,381 --> 00:06:13,976 But we still have the same... We have 171 00:06:13,976 --> 00:06:16,369 a process that underline that because we're... If 172 00:06:16,369 --> 00:06:18,879 we wanna see growth we're making some changes 173 00:06:19,498 --> 00:06:21,975 overcoming that Cas problem that we usually run 174 00:06:21,975 --> 00:06:24,212 into. And if we're in maturity and competitors 175 00:06:24,212 --> 00:06:26,290 are stealing our market share, we're making changes. 176 00:06:26,624 --> 00:06:28,702 We're still going through a... Some sort of 177 00:06:28,702 --> 00:06:32,377 process to to develop new an air quote 178 00:06:32,377 --> 00:06:35,187 tear product because we are doing new new 179 00:06:35,187 --> 00:06:36,700 work to it. I don't know where you 180 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:38,610 wanna go with this next... I was think 181 00:06:38,610 --> 00:06:40,122 maybe an example might help us think through 182 00:06:40,122 --> 00:06:42,192 the sub or just kinda how you see 183 00:06:42,192 --> 00:06:42,692 the 184 00:06:43,083 --> 00:06:43,583 phases 185 00:06:44,117 --> 00:06:46,504 being applied and what those phases are. 186 00:06:47,539 --> 00:06:47,777 Yeah. 187 00:06:48,414 --> 00:06:51,040 So with with those hardware products, you do 188 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,046 have that sequence. Right? So you can have 189 00:06:53,046 --> 00:06:54,481 some iteration in there and and things like 190 00:06:54,481 --> 00:06:56,794 that. But those phases are are pretty sequential. 191 00:06:57,352 --> 00:06:59,425 When you get those software, Right? You have 192 00:06:59,425 --> 00:07:00,860 all those things going in parallel. 193 00:07:01,353 --> 00:07:03,580 Right? You have things that you're building. You 194 00:07:03,580 --> 00:07:04,399 have constant 195 00:07:04,933 --> 00:07:07,081 feedback from the field from the sales team 196 00:07:07,081 --> 00:07:09,149 from your customer service from the the research 197 00:07:09,149 --> 00:07:12,180 you're doing. Right? You're developing in parallel while 198 00:07:12,180 --> 00:07:14,956 they're actually writing, developing features and things like 199 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:17,098 that. And 1 of the challenges I hear 200 00:07:17,098 --> 00:07:19,500 from product manager and and really gets to 201 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,690 disco confusion. Right, with Agile and I'm a 202 00:07:22,849 --> 00:07:25,082 Po, but I don't have time to talk 203 00:07:25,082 --> 00:07:27,256 to people. I'm really mir in the backlog 204 00:07:27,489 --> 00:07:29,402 And what is my role is how to 205 00:07:29,402 --> 00:07:32,133 juggle all this. Right? So different 206 00:07:32,749 --> 00:07:34,422 organizations have different structures. So you might be 207 00:07:34,422 --> 00:07:35,082 the Po 208 00:07:35,475 --> 00:07:37,634 product, you know, owner and you're it. 209 00:07:38,355 --> 00:07:41,235 So you're writing stories and you're trying to 210 00:07:41,235 --> 00:07:42,595 keep out of the dev team and things 211 00:07:42,595 --> 00:07:44,595 like that. And and and the idea that 212 00:07:44,595 --> 00:07:47,243 you could spend days or hours talking to 213 00:07:47,243 --> 00:07:49,875 customers and recruiting customers, things like that. It's 214 00:07:49,875 --> 00:07:50,513 really not 215 00:07:51,071 --> 00:07:54,182 realistic. Right? But for me, right? That that 216 00:07:54,182 --> 00:07:57,148 feedback is is core and and foundational. So 217 00:07:57,148 --> 00:07:59,142 that... That's a a huge difference, and that's 218 00:07:59,142 --> 00:08:01,216 a huge problem that I see where people 219 00:08:01,216 --> 00:08:03,927 are struggling to maintain those parallel paths where 220 00:08:03,927 --> 00:08:04,406 they're doing. 221 00:08:05,059 --> 00:08:07,205 A lot of these stages at the same 222 00:08:07,205 --> 00:08:09,271 time. Yeah. Let let's unwind that a little 223 00:08:09,271 --> 00:08:11,020 bit. Anyone has been around product for a 224 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:12,610 little bit, and if you listen to any 225 00:08:12,610 --> 00:08:13,881 kind of startup stories as well. 226 00:08:15,092 --> 00:08:16,767 We know this is important to be talking 227 00:08:16,767 --> 00:08:17,564 to customers. 228 00:08:18,123 --> 00:08:20,595 And most people that that talk about this, 229 00:08:20,755 --> 00:08:22,828 say, 30 percent of your time, give or 230 00:08:22,828 --> 00:08:24,839 take, a third of your time. Should be 231 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:27,800 engaging customers. And the reality is we're almost 232 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,519 always way too busy, and that feels like 233 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:32,440 a luxury, like to actually be learning from 234 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:33,000 our customers. 235 00:08:34,055 --> 00:08:35,495 So some organizations, 236 00:08:36,774 --> 00:08:38,134 I wouldn't say they throw their hands up, 237 00:08:38,295 --> 00:08:39,735 but they're not addressing that problem at all, 238 00:08:40,134 --> 00:08:41,735 And they push it off to an another. 239 00:08:41,988 --> 00:08:45,330 I see sales sometimes taking that function. And 240 00:08:45,330 --> 00:08:47,399 product people, like you said that, like, the 241 00:08:47,558 --> 00:08:49,800 a product owner there, they're just trying to 242 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,391 do their best to respond to what sales 243 00:08:51,391 --> 00:08:53,777 wants and translate that into user stories or 244 00:08:53,777 --> 00:08:55,390 some other description of 245 00:08:55,765 --> 00:08:57,197 capabilities what he's needed for the team to 246 00:08:57,197 --> 00:08:59,596 bill. What have you seen in trying or 247 00:08:59,596 --> 00:09:01,106 what's... Been your experience to try to just 248 00:09:01,106 --> 00:09:04,444 manage that maybe by dividing up the role 249 00:09:04,444 --> 00:09:06,447 or just thinking about it differently. 250 00:09:06,924 --> 00:09:07,958 How do we help with this if we're 251 00:09:07,958 --> 00:09:08,912 not talking to customers? 252 00:09:09,469 --> 00:09:11,458 Yeah. So I was spoiled when I started 253 00:09:11,458 --> 00:09:13,864 my career. Right? Doing medical devices, we had 254 00:09:13,864 --> 00:09:15,937 a dedicated, whether it was 6 months, 9 255 00:09:15,937 --> 00:09:18,169 months. Right, period for doing voice of customers. 256 00:09:18,408 --> 00:09:20,163 And back then, we were traveling all over 257 00:09:20,163 --> 00:09:21,771 the world all over the tree and and 258 00:09:21,771 --> 00:09:23,921 doing them in person. So so that was 259 00:09:23,921 --> 00:09:25,753 my out of the gate experience, what I 260 00:09:25,753 --> 00:09:27,744 thought was normal. But 1 of the things 261 00:09:27,744 --> 00:09:29,496 we talk about in the pd and class 262 00:09:29,496 --> 00:09:31,099 is what's it like in the real world. 263 00:09:31,258 --> 00:09:33,004 Like, we're throwing things up on the board 264 00:09:33,004 --> 00:09:35,941 here and and showing you what theoretically something 265 00:09:35,941 --> 00:09:39,373 should look like. But you have to make 266 00:09:39,373 --> 00:09:41,606 decisions and and deal with the resources you 267 00:09:41,606 --> 00:09:43,440 have as a product manager. And and 1 268 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,195 company is gonna be different than another company 269 00:09:45,195 --> 00:09:47,668 you might have Ux researchers to help you. 270 00:09:47,827 --> 00:09:48,679 You may not 271 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:50,944 you may have sales that some of those 272 00:09:50,944 --> 00:09:53,487 guys can be really insightful or sales are 273 00:09:53,487 --> 00:09:55,553 just lasting you with. We have have this 274 00:09:55,553 --> 00:09:57,884 feature and very self interested because if you 275 00:09:57,884 --> 00:09:59,884 give them that feature, maybe maybe they're gonna 276 00:09:59,884 --> 00:10:02,045 land a big deal. So I I think 277 00:10:02,045 --> 00:10:03,404 the best way to do it is to 278 00:10:03,404 --> 00:10:04,445 use all your channels. 279 00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:07,100 Right? So maybe you have time, that you 280 00:10:07,100 --> 00:10:07,819 can plan time. 281 00:10:08,779 --> 00:10:11,179 A couple weeks from now in schedule maybe 282 00:10:11,179 --> 00:10:13,715 5 dedicated interviews, like what we think of 283 00:10:13,913 --> 00:10:16,615 proper V 1 on 1 type interviews, But 284 00:10:16,615 --> 00:10:18,205 there's no reason you can't just be a 285 00:10:18,205 --> 00:10:20,350 fly on the wall for sales calls. Talk 286 00:10:20,350 --> 00:10:22,337 to customer service and and and listen in. 287 00:10:23,069 --> 00:10:25,067 And just bring all those things in, leverage 288 00:10:25,067 --> 00:10:26,745 your maze if you if you have them. 289 00:10:27,304 --> 00:10:30,180 And and that's... I think where product manager 290 00:10:30,180 --> 00:10:32,030 is gonna really are earn their money as 291 00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:34,262 you've got all these desperate disparate channels of 292 00:10:34,262 --> 00:10:36,573 of feedback, and and you need to align 293 00:10:36,573 --> 00:10:38,407 it with your goals and your vision for 294 00:10:38,407 --> 00:10:40,731 the product. But you can't just accumulate a 295 00:10:40,731 --> 00:10:43,277 a list of a thousand product requests. Right? 296 00:10:43,436 --> 00:10:45,665 That's... There has to be something that you're 297 00:10:45,665 --> 00:10:47,177 weighing those against, and that has to be 298 00:10:47,177 --> 00:10:49,741 your product vision. So just using all all 299 00:10:49,741 --> 00:10:52,316 those resources and then being able to kinda 300 00:10:52,534 --> 00:10:54,209 sit through the signal with the noise to 301 00:10:54,209 --> 00:10:55,805 find the signal and and go from there. 302 00:10:56,299 --> 00:10:58,612 Yeah. It's a great tip to use the 303 00:10:58,612 --> 00:11:00,765 resources you have. And and I really wanna 304 00:11:00,765 --> 00:11:02,201 pursue that for a moment, But I'll try 305 00:11:02,201 --> 00:11:03,557 to do it in the context of of 306 00:11:03,557 --> 00:11:06,004 the life cycle here. There's so many pass 307 00:11:06,044 --> 00:11:07,953 and go down. To to use the tips, 308 00:11:08,113 --> 00:11:09,942 the... I mean, so you to leverage the 309 00:11:09,942 --> 00:11:12,408 resources you have. The our ability is product 310 00:11:12,408 --> 00:11:12,647 people, 311 00:11:13,219 --> 00:11:16,013 to gain somehow trust to have rapport to 312 00:11:16,013 --> 00:11:18,487 develop that with others. Is really key. Right? 313 00:11:18,647 --> 00:11:19,923 And and I know 1 thing that helped 314 00:11:19,923 --> 00:11:21,121 me a lot in 1 of my roles 315 00:11:21,121 --> 00:11:21,621 was 316 00:11:21,934 --> 00:11:24,012 I I became trusted by the sales team. 317 00:11:24,651 --> 00:11:26,329 And so I could couple... 318 00:11:26,969 --> 00:11:28,647 And they were encouraging this as well. Right? 319 00:11:28,887 --> 00:11:30,645 Wasn't my brain idea. They were encouraging this. 320 00:11:31,217 --> 00:11:31,717 But 321 00:11:32,092 --> 00:11:35,907 I could couple customer interviews with furthering sales 322 00:11:35,907 --> 00:11:38,213 activity and making the salesperson trust me even 323 00:11:38,213 --> 00:11:39,898 more. Because they would see... 324 00:11:40,535 --> 00:11:42,365 I don't want to start advocating that product 325 00:11:42,365 --> 00:11:43,558 people need to be going out on sales 326 00:11:43,558 --> 00:11:44,990 calls all the time because that messes up 327 00:11:44,990 --> 00:11:46,438 our roll a little bit too. But we 328 00:11:46,438 --> 00:11:48,433 do need to have customer contact and understand 329 00:11:48,433 --> 00:11:50,507 the problem, so those customer interviews are essential 330 00:11:50,507 --> 00:11:50,746 for us. 331 00:11:51,464 --> 00:11:52,922 And you can have sales 332 00:11:53,633 --> 00:11:55,229 set those meetings up for you, 333 00:11:55,868 --> 00:11:58,022 and they get the benefit for... That are 334 00:11:58,022 --> 00:11:59,959 seen by their customer is bringing a value 335 00:12:00,017 --> 00:12:00,815 resource to them, 336 00:12:01,389 --> 00:12:03,542 because now the the company wants to understand 337 00:12:03,542 --> 00:12:06,094 what the problems the customer are. And as 338 00:12:06,094 --> 00:12:07,530 long as you have the relationship with the 339 00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:09,763 salespeople people that they understand, this truly is 340 00:12:09,763 --> 00:12:11,849 not a sales call, This is for us 341 00:12:11,849 --> 00:12:14,552 to learn more deeply what the problem is. 342 00:12:15,029 --> 00:12:16,063 That works out really well. 343 00:12:16,779 --> 00:12:18,608 I think it largely depends on the relationship 344 00:12:18,608 --> 00:12:19,562 you have with the salespeople people. 345 00:12:21,009 --> 00:12:23,401 Yeah. Developing those partnerships is is huge. 346 00:12:24,119 --> 00:12:26,670 Vice versa when we do those formal V. 347 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:27,069 Right? 348 00:12:27,787 --> 00:12:29,780 Invite your marketing person, obviously, 349 00:12:30,274 --> 00:12:32,343 your designer, maybe your tech lead and things 350 00:12:32,343 --> 00:12:34,253 like that. Bring them in, make them part 351 00:12:34,253 --> 00:12:35,844 of that. And and and maybe... And you 352 00:12:35,844 --> 00:12:37,356 need to be organized. Right? You don't want 353 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:38,948 5 people talking to the customer on a 354 00:12:39,028 --> 00:12:41,503 Zoom call. Right? But I'm the lead interviewer 355 00:12:41,503 --> 00:12:43,088 and you guys are gonna be over here 356 00:12:43,088 --> 00:12:45,070 and and with Zoom, you can be shooting 357 00:12:45,070 --> 00:12:46,894 messages back and forth. Like, hey, ask him 358 00:12:46,894 --> 00:12:47,052 this. 359 00:12:47,702 --> 00:12:49,530 Or or to say hey, guys. Does anybody 360 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:51,120 have any follow ups here. I'll pause for 361 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,140 a second. Right Getting people involved and making 362 00:12:54,140 --> 00:12:56,308 them part of it. Is is so much 363 00:12:56,308 --> 00:12:58,305 more powerful and efficient than saying, I'm the 364 00:12:58,305 --> 00:12:59,025 product manager. 365 00:12:59,424 --> 00:13:01,182 Here's what you're going to do and it's 366 00:13:01,182 --> 00:13:02,940 coming for me and making it very transactional. 367 00:13:03,433 --> 00:13:05,102 Yeah. Absolutely. If you can have part of 368 00:13:05,102 --> 00:13:06,771 the development team involved in those activities. 369 00:13:07,407 --> 00:13:10,268 There's less translation errors that occur. Right? Oh, 370 00:13:10,347 --> 00:13:11,936 they get to hear from the user firsthand, 371 00:13:12,349 --> 00:13:14,906 kinda under the problem. That was just great. 372 00:13:15,465 --> 00:13:17,702 So tying this back to life cycle, these 373 00:13:17,702 --> 00:13:19,160 are the things we care about 374 00:13:20,191 --> 00:13:21,943 as you said, in your example there doing 375 00:13:21,943 --> 00:13:23,536 the medical device work. If you were doing 376 00:13:23,536 --> 00:13:25,607 6 7 months of V on the front 377 00:13:25,607 --> 00:13:28,156 end, that clearly takes place pre development. 378 00:13:28,809 --> 00:13:30,487 But we're also doing it all throughout the 379 00:13:30,487 --> 00:13:32,805 life cycle, Like, when we go from... We're 380 00:13:32,805 --> 00:13:34,803 starting to see a little uptick in sales 381 00:13:34,803 --> 00:13:36,800 growth where we're trying to get that after 382 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,892 we introduce introduce product and we can't can't 383 00:13:38,892 --> 00:13:40,328 quite get over the chasm yet to our, 384 00:13:41,046 --> 00:13:43,121 maybe our first course niche of a market 385 00:13:43,121 --> 00:13:43,920 we're trying to get after. 386 00:13:44,638 --> 00:13:46,049 We're we're we're looking at 387 00:13:46,647 --> 00:13:49,035 feedback from customers to understand what to do 388 00:13:49,035 --> 00:13:51,662 next. And if that's all we're doing is 389 00:13:51,662 --> 00:13:53,891 just taking requests from customers and features, 390 00:13:54,545 --> 00:13:56,304 to put in. But that that might help 391 00:13:56,304 --> 00:13:58,705 us down the path. Maybe we get lucky 392 00:13:58,705 --> 00:14:00,384 and that's exactly what we need to do. 393 00:14:00,785 --> 00:14:02,465 But it doesn't only help us understand the 394 00:14:02,465 --> 00:14:03,345 problem more deeply. 395 00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:06,652 So we still have the same need to 396 00:14:06,791 --> 00:14:09,343 be analyzing what what the customer's problem actually 397 00:14:09,343 --> 00:14:10,061 is. Yeah. 398 00:14:11,177 --> 00:14:13,012 In the threshold for making a change in 399 00:14:13,012 --> 00:14:15,097 something like medical voice is is very high. 400 00:14:15,734 --> 00:14:18,121 Right? So you really need to be hearing 401 00:14:18,121 --> 00:14:19,394 it from a lot of people and... And 402 00:14:19,394 --> 00:14:21,941 really, the the... Those requests really should just 403 00:14:21,941 --> 00:14:22,896 be the start of the process. 404 00:14:23,389 --> 00:14:24,588 Are you now you need to go and 405 00:14:24,588 --> 00:14:25,787 say, why am I hearing this so much? 406 00:14:26,106 --> 00:14:28,104 And and do your your due diligence? Like, 407 00:14:28,264 --> 00:14:30,821 why are they asking about this? And and 408 00:14:30,821 --> 00:14:32,340 and what are they trying to accomplish? 409 00:14:33,073 --> 00:14:34,509 That's the big thing. You know, I'll go 410 00:14:34,509 --> 00:14:36,582 back to my last role and non medical 411 00:14:36,582 --> 00:14:40,751 with cybersecurity, I managed an enterprise platform for 412 00:14:40,810 --> 00:14:42,405 organizations to manage their cybersecurity. 413 00:14:43,216 --> 00:14:44,115 Right? And 414 00:14:44,889 --> 00:14:46,959 you... Your initial impression might be, They need 415 00:14:46,959 --> 00:14:48,393 to know what to do and they need 416 00:14:48,393 --> 00:14:50,383 this this really. But they were just they 417 00:14:50,383 --> 00:14:53,509 were struggling with trying to navigate the organization. 418 00:14:53,668 --> 00:14:55,903 So these... The the reporting we had was 419 00:14:55,903 --> 00:14:58,376 not so much to show them what they 420 00:14:58,376 --> 00:14:58,855 were doing. 421 00:14:59,429 --> 00:15:00,707 It was for them to take it in 422 00:15:00,707 --> 00:15:02,545 their hand and communicate to people who are 423 00:15:02,545 --> 00:15:05,261 non cybersecurity people. So until you start digging 424 00:15:05,261 --> 00:15:06,434 into that and understanding 425 00:15:06,793 --> 00:15:08,467 what the purpose is. Right? Whether you call 426 00:15:08,467 --> 00:15:09,662 job to be done or whatever. 427 00:15:10,618 --> 00:15:11,814 But but the true why, 428 00:15:12,372 --> 00:15:14,067 that's what gives you confidence 429 00:15:14,459 --> 00:15:16,297 to to push things in 1 direction or 430 00:15:16,297 --> 00:15:19,573 the other. Right. K. Continue on with life 431 00:15:19,573 --> 00:15:22,745 cycle. So the... You, if, we're in the 432 00:15:23,184 --> 00:15:25,424 growth phase that... As we're helping to see 433 00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:27,825 rapid advancements in our our market share increase 434 00:15:27,825 --> 00:15:29,424 and customers finding us, and we're doing a 435 00:15:29,424 --> 00:15:29,825 good job for them. 436 00:15:30,625 --> 00:15:32,958 And if we're doing He's sufficiently good job. 437 00:15:33,118 --> 00:15:35,216 There's gonna be some competitors that take notice 438 00:15:35,436 --> 00:15:37,593 and don't like having... If they're in the 439 00:15:37,593 --> 00:15:40,630 same marketplace. Don't like having their market share 440 00:15:40,630 --> 00:15:40,790 decrease. 441 00:15:41,601 --> 00:15:44,146 Or they see opportunity. Right? To to do 442 00:15:44,146 --> 00:15:45,418 something that we're doing. And if they're doing 443 00:15:45,418 --> 00:15:48,440 it wisely, they're going to probably learn from 444 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,587 what we've done, so take advantage of of 445 00:15:50,587 --> 00:15:52,835 all that effort like those months of V. 446 00:15:52,995 --> 00:15:55,390 Right? And in some sense copy aspects of 447 00:15:55,390 --> 00:15:57,465 our product. But if they're doing it wisely, 448 00:15:57,864 --> 00:16:00,591 also they're understanding the customer's problem, they're making 449 00:16:00,591 --> 00:16:03,134 what we did better, and that's when we're 450 00:16:03,134 --> 00:16:04,882 into the maturity phase where we see our 451 00:16:04,882 --> 00:16:08,955 sales slow down and customers choosing other options 452 00:16:08,955 --> 00:16:11,268 available to them instead of us. From your 453 00:16:11,268 --> 00:16:12,145 medical experience, 454 00:16:12,943 --> 00:16:15,437 what takes place at that point where you 455 00:16:15,495 --> 00:16:17,272 start seeing those sales decline 456 00:16:17,663 --> 00:16:19,832 and you wanna take action to 457 00:16:20,684 --> 00:16:23,704 restore your market share position or somehow fend 458 00:16:23,704 --> 00:16:24,578 off the competitors. 459 00:16:25,373 --> 00:16:26,668 Sure. I think 460 00:16:27,138 --> 00:16:29,211 what we need to realize and and we 461 00:16:29,211 --> 00:16:31,285 get... When you talk about software, it's all 462 00:16:31,285 --> 00:16:33,300 it's a lot about introducing value 463 00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:35,192 in terms of features. Right? 464 00:16:36,325 --> 00:16:37,684 We need to make sure that that we're 465 00:16:37,684 --> 00:16:39,605 working with our marketing group and and we 466 00:16:39,605 --> 00:16:42,725 talked about sales, Right, Or the messaging that's 467 00:16:42,725 --> 00:16:45,220 getting to the the the customer. Is it 468 00:16:45,220 --> 00:16:47,220 resonating with them. So all that V work 469 00:16:47,220 --> 00:16:49,379 we did. Right? And said this is where 470 00:16:49,379 --> 00:16:50,820 we're going. And this is the value we're 471 00:16:50,820 --> 00:16:52,120 we think we're gonna provide 472 00:16:52,432 --> 00:16:54,179 is that making it, you know, to their 473 00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:56,481 front door. Is that what they're hearing? And 474 00:16:56,481 --> 00:16:58,386 and and so using all your all your 475 00:16:58,386 --> 00:17:00,470 channels, so you're in charge of you, charge 476 00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:02,549 pricing or you have some influence over pricing. 477 00:17:02,710 --> 00:17:04,570 So there's things that are non 478 00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:06,630 in not in the feet... Not in the 479 00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:08,822 feature bucket. Right? That we should be doing 480 00:17:08,881 --> 00:17:10,397 is managers. Do you have do you have 481 00:17:10,397 --> 00:17:12,551 good relationships with those hospitals. There is a 482 00:17:12,551 --> 00:17:14,706 lot of loyalty in health care in in 483 00:17:14,706 --> 00:17:15,206 certain 484 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:18,240 aspects. Right? People use these things every day. 485 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,160 1 thing that stands out to me and 486 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,759 and and when we did voice a customer, 487 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:23,920 you'd really wanna look and find these like 488 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,321 little nuggets. And it was a nurse, and 489 00:17:26,321 --> 00:17:28,146 we would capture these things and things called 490 00:17:28,146 --> 00:17:30,050 image diagrams. Right? Just things that were like, 491 00:17:30,208 --> 00:17:32,288 really powerful stood out to us. And she 492 00:17:32,288 --> 00:17:34,045 said, man, when I can't get that injector 493 00:17:34,045 --> 00:17:36,279 set up. Like, the doctor comes in, he's 494 00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:37,557 ready to do procedure, and he's so mad, 495 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:39,552 and I just feel like awful. Mh. Right? 496 00:17:39,712 --> 00:17:42,745 So that... That's that resonates. So if you 497 00:17:42,745 --> 00:17:44,013 can build a product, 498 00:17:44,567 --> 00:17:46,890 that's helping them do their job. Right? So 499 00:17:46,944 --> 00:17:48,948 it's somewhat transparent and and they can feel 500 00:17:48,948 --> 00:17:50,866 like, hey, this is not imp me from 501 00:17:50,866 --> 00:17:53,343 providing good patient care. Right? You can establish 502 00:17:53,343 --> 00:17:55,340 a lot of loyalty that way. Right? And 503 00:17:55,340 --> 00:17:57,663 and then when you have your support staff 504 00:17:57,663 --> 00:17:59,808 there because you have customer people and and 505 00:17:59,808 --> 00:18:02,851 sales guys and and girls in the hospitals 506 00:18:02,987 --> 00:18:06,440 themselves. Right? Just maintaining that type relationship and 507 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480 and that goes a long way. Yeah. Absolutely. 508 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,160 The the relationship relationships matter of the people 509 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,722 that you meet during the Vlc work and 510 00:18:13,722 --> 00:18:16,903 capturing their words literally in their perspective and 511 00:18:16,903 --> 00:18:18,732 trying to respond to his needs. I should've 512 00:18:18,732 --> 00:18:19,925 have been taking a note on this because 513 00:18:19,925 --> 00:18:21,617 you said something I wanna ask you about 514 00:18:21,848 --> 00:18:23,598 couple minutes ago, I forget now exactly how 515 00:18:23,598 --> 00:18:25,587 you worded it, but was... In the sense 516 00:18:25,587 --> 00:18:27,655 if the knowledge that you learned from a 517 00:18:27,735 --> 00:18:28,212 V, 518 00:18:28,784 --> 00:18:30,533 isn't making its way. I think maybe you 519 00:18:30,533 --> 00:18:32,919 said through the marketing door that people are 520 00:18:32,919 --> 00:18:35,066 missing some aspects of this. Tell us more 521 00:18:35,066 --> 00:18:35,861 about what you meant by that. 522 00:18:37,308 --> 00:18:40,176 So everybody kinda has that cy that people 523 00:18:40,176 --> 00:18:41,770 trying to market this thing to me. Right? 524 00:18:42,009 --> 00:18:44,001 It's marketing. I think in the real world, 525 00:18:44,399 --> 00:18:46,072 that only goes so far. Right? If you 526 00:18:46,072 --> 00:18:48,637 don't have a solid value proposition. And you 527 00:18:48,637 --> 00:18:50,790 don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish? 528 00:18:51,188 --> 00:18:52,942 Right, with your product? What... What's the problem? 529 00:18:53,181 --> 00:18:54,956 What's your solution? How are they connected 530 00:18:55,268 --> 00:18:55,506 Right? 531 00:18:56,459 --> 00:18:59,000 Marketing people can't work magic without that. But 532 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,144 if you have a a very consistent and 533 00:19:01,144 --> 00:19:03,764 strong tie between that value proposition that you've 534 00:19:03,764 --> 00:19:04,002 discovered, 535 00:19:04,573 --> 00:19:06,323 Right? The solution that you have in the 536 00:19:06,323 --> 00:19:08,788 middle and in the messaging you're sending out 537 00:19:08,788 --> 00:19:11,571 through marketing through your sales, saying this... This 538 00:19:11,571 --> 00:19:13,500 is what we're trying to trying to do 539 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:14,619 for you. This is what we're trying to 540 00:19:14,619 --> 00:19:16,460 help you with. If it's real and if 541 00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:17,200 it's validated, 542 00:19:17,819 --> 00:19:20,220 value proposition, that is going to resonate with, 543 00:19:20,299 --> 00:19:22,220 you know, potential customers and they're gonna... They're 544 00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:23,692 gonna you're and enough credibility. 545 00:19:24,388 --> 00:19:27,497 Yep. Good. So I assume we ended up 546 00:19:27,497 --> 00:19:29,489 where we did with that because of the 547 00:19:29,489 --> 00:19:30,605 the regulatory environment. 548 00:19:31,177 --> 00:19:32,845 And what I mean is we're talking about 549 00:19:32,845 --> 00:19:35,070 maturity, How do we kinda defend from the 550 00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:35,388 competitor. 551 00:19:35,944 --> 00:19:38,744 And obvious options would be Well, we need 552 00:19:38,744 --> 00:19:40,741 to make the product better in some sense 553 00:19:40,741 --> 00:19:42,659 that can be software or hardware at least 554 00:19:42,659 --> 00:19:44,976 in this context we're talking about. But either 555 00:19:44,976 --> 00:19:46,015 changes to either 1 of those, 556 00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:49,540 means we have regulatory hurdles to go through, 557 00:19:49,779 --> 00:19:50,519 which is 558 00:19:50,976 --> 00:19:53,608 that that becomes a much larger issue now 559 00:19:53,608 --> 00:19:54,746 because of the the regulated 560 00:19:55,123 --> 00:19:55,602 industry. Sure. 561 00:19:56,574 --> 00:19:58,428 An the example you brought up, which I 562 00:19:59,044 --> 00:20:02,411 probably what even I've thought about is let's 563 00:20:02,469 --> 00:20:04,620 reevaluate how we're positioning the product to meet 564 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:05,496 the needs of the customer. 565 00:20:05,988 --> 00:20:07,969 And make sure we're communicating in in a 566 00:20:07,969 --> 00:20:10,901 way that the customer recognizes, we understand their 567 00:20:10,901 --> 00:20:14,093 problem and this solution as they answer to 568 00:20:14,093 --> 00:20:16,010 their problem in way that really creates enormous 569 00:20:16,010 --> 00:20:16,649 value for them. 570 00:20:18,567 --> 00:20:19,046 Absolutely. 571 00:20:19,605 --> 00:20:19,765 Again, 572 00:20:20,498 --> 00:20:22,809 you're limited and in the medical world and 573 00:20:22,809 --> 00:20:26,019 in other world domains as well. Right? Credibility 574 00:20:26,077 --> 00:20:28,070 is usually important. Right? You you have. Yep. 575 00:20:28,404 --> 00:20:30,898 I highly paid doctors and and your 576 00:20:31,355 --> 00:20:31,834 professional 577 00:20:32,472 --> 00:20:32,711 clinicians. 578 00:20:33,588 --> 00:20:35,183 You don't wanna waste your time, you don't 579 00:20:35,183 --> 00:20:36,858 want them to think that you don't know 580 00:20:36,858 --> 00:20:39,260 what you're talking about. So It's very important. 581 00:20:39,656 --> 00:20:41,638 Yep. Absolutely. K. Good. The... 582 00:20:42,510 --> 00:20:43,778 And I think this is a place where 583 00:20:43,778 --> 00:20:46,335 product managers can add great value and it 584 00:20:46,335 --> 00:20:49,055 gets missed in organizations, and sounds like when 585 00:20:49,055 --> 00:20:51,295 your experience may have been missed too. Because 586 00:20:51,295 --> 00:20:53,934 the product team, the V work that gets 587 00:20:53,934 --> 00:20:56,654 done, product managers involved in that, and we 588 00:20:56,654 --> 00:20:58,561 come up with the key value propositions. That's 589 00:20:58,561 --> 00:21:00,468 what the design of the product is built 590 00:21:00,468 --> 00:21:02,296 around it to to answer those needs with 591 00:21:02,296 --> 00:21:02,693 the customer. 592 00:21:03,503 --> 00:21:05,173 And then by the time launch happens, and 593 00:21:05,173 --> 00:21:05,990 there's a marketing 594 00:21:06,365 --> 00:21:09,466 group involved. Some what we learned from the 595 00:21:09,546 --> 00:21:11,079 V can get dropped 596 00:21:11,867 --> 00:21:13,301 from the marketing group. Right? 597 00:21:14,018 --> 00:21:16,407 And that was gold that came up in 598 00:21:16,407 --> 00:21:17,682 the V effort, 599 00:21:18,239 --> 00:21:20,525 and the marketing group just has positioned to 600 00:21:20,803 --> 00:21:21,303 maybe 601 00:21:21,678 --> 00:21:24,143 off the instead of true north where we 602 00:21:24,143 --> 00:21:25,574 thought we were headed. Right? We're a few 603 00:21:25,574 --> 00:21:27,880 degrees off of that. Or they're using words 604 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,948 that the organization that I have seen this 605 00:21:29,948 --> 00:21:31,818 1 a lot. The organization 606 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:34,452 turns the language that we learned in V 607 00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:37,645 into organizational speak. It's like, we don't wanna 608 00:21:37,704 --> 00:21:39,561 stop may... Say that just sounds 609 00:21:39,874 --> 00:21:42,664 to informal or something. Right? And we kinda 610 00:21:42,664 --> 00:21:45,374 lose the effectiveness then of being able to 611 00:21:45,374 --> 00:21:47,048 connect with people that we actually understand the 612 00:21:47,048 --> 00:21:47,288 problem. 613 00:21:48,579 --> 00:21:50,339 Right. And and if it goes back to 614 00:21:50,339 --> 00:21:52,099 bringing people in to your team. Mean, I 615 00:21:52,099 --> 00:21:53,940 think about it as a product development team 616 00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,595 and each person has different roles. Versus I'm 617 00:21:56,595 --> 00:21:58,515 just doing product management. Right? So if we 618 00:21:58,515 --> 00:22:00,994 can't leave marketing right, to to the end. 619 00:22:01,154 --> 00:22:02,595 Right? They should be brought in early. Like 620 00:22:02,674 --> 00:22:04,194 I said, invite them to the voice of 621 00:22:04,194 --> 00:22:04,674 the customer. 622 00:22:05,169 --> 00:22:06,845 Right, at the beginning. They don't have to 623 00:22:06,845 --> 00:22:08,681 be in everyone, but maybe they're in in 624 00:22:08,681 --> 00:22:10,278 readout outs and things like that to beginning. 625 00:22:10,437 --> 00:22:12,752 So they're aware, right, of of the path 626 00:22:12,752 --> 00:22:15,158 you're taking, and then they can... Maybe you're 627 00:22:15,158 --> 00:22:17,147 not good it marketing. Marketing not my thing. 628 00:22:17,307 --> 00:22:18,682 So when I have my marketing 629 00:22:19,296 --> 00:22:21,047 resource. I'll tell them, hey. Look. 630 00:22:22,254 --> 00:22:23,924 I'll give you this and and you're kinda 631 00:22:23,924 --> 00:22:25,513 driving the marketing thing, you tell me what 632 00:22:25,513 --> 00:22:26,865 you need, You tell me what what you 633 00:22:26,865 --> 00:22:28,137 wanna do, When do you wanna do it 634 00:22:28,137 --> 00:22:29,904 and things like that. So bring them in 635 00:22:29,904 --> 00:22:31,664 and and let them own it, but provide 636 00:22:31,664 --> 00:22:33,505 them what they need to be successful. K. 637 00:22:33,744 --> 00:22:35,825 That makes sense. K. And and and the 638 00:22:35,825 --> 00:22:37,985 2 other options there are the main option 639 00:22:37,985 --> 00:22:40,099 of We just wanna make our product better 640 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:42,240 when we're in that maturity phase to ward 641 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,519 off the the competitors. 642 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,359 We'd need to be careful that we're not 643 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,559 now copying the competitors. 644 00:22:47,214 --> 00:22:49,446 Which don't put features in just because your 645 00:22:49,446 --> 00:22:51,837 competitors have them because you're kinda guessing if 646 00:22:51,837 --> 00:22:53,671 they responded to an actual need or not 647 00:22:53,671 --> 00:22:55,759 or if they're just having features themselves. And 648 00:22:55,759 --> 00:22:58,712 so once again, understanding the customer's problem and 649 00:22:58,712 --> 00:23:00,787 their unmet needs at that point, is really 650 00:23:00,787 --> 00:23:02,144 important so that we can do the smart 651 00:23:02,144 --> 00:23:03,341 thing and make our product better. 652 00:23:04,073 --> 00:23:05,665 It is and the cost have change to 653 00:23:05,665 --> 00:23:07,335 physical devices is a lot 654 00:23:07,813 --> 00:23:09,802 greater than to a software device. Right? There 655 00:23:09,802 --> 00:23:12,529 there's large companies that can deploy multiple 656 00:23:13,318 --> 00:23:15,231 versions of a of a a big feature. 657 00:23:15,550 --> 00:23:17,703 Right? And within 24 hours or 48 hours, 658 00:23:17,942 --> 00:23:19,696 they have feedback because their user base is 659 00:23:19,696 --> 00:23:21,290 so enormous. And so they can run those. 660 00:23:21,943 --> 00:23:24,173 Little live experiments on a on a consistent 661 00:23:24,173 --> 00:23:26,245 basis, which is is much different than what 662 00:23:26,245 --> 00:23:27,599 the with the hardware product. 663 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:30,547 Yep. Exactly. If you've ever gone a Google 664 00:23:30,547 --> 00:23:32,636 to do a and 1 day. You go, 665 00:23:32,875 --> 00:23:35,508 wow. This doesn't look right. And Right. 10 666 00:23:35,508 --> 00:23:37,423 seconds later. You wrote another search. Oh, it's 667 00:23:37,423 --> 00:23:40,075 back. Right. It's like. You you got selected 668 00:23:40,075 --> 00:23:42,634 as the 0 little percent of people that 669 00:23:42,634 --> 00:23:44,554 saw that Ui. I do want to... So 670 00:23:44,554 --> 00:23:45,755 after we... After maturity, 671 00:23:46,408 --> 00:23:48,392 if our product is not the shiny bright 672 00:23:48,392 --> 00:23:50,296 1 anymore, and there are better options in 673 00:23:50,296 --> 00:23:53,312 the marketplace and we're... For whatever reasons have 674 00:23:53,312 --> 00:23:54,875 chosen not to try to 675 00:23:55,471 --> 00:23:57,541 maintain our our positioning if they keep our 676 00:23:57,541 --> 00:24:00,087 product up. We're gonna reach decline, see those 677 00:24:00,087 --> 00:24:00,883 sales decrease. 678 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,243 At some point, the effort to keep the 679 00:24:04,243 --> 00:24:06,872 product available is going to be much more 680 00:24:06,872 --> 00:24:09,263 expensive than just retiring it. And I don't 681 00:24:09,263 --> 00:24:10,777 know if you have any comments on retiring. 682 00:24:10,936 --> 00:24:12,051 I don't know if you've ever been a 683 00:24:12,051 --> 00:24:14,622 situation where actually had to retire a product, 684 00:24:15,181 --> 00:24:16,459 make it not available anymore? 685 00:24:17,578 --> 00:24:19,835 Sure. Sure. I have. And it's 686 00:24:20,387 --> 00:24:23,010 it's a... Different activity. Right? You're taking AAA 687 00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:24,997 product off the market, but some of the 688 00:24:24,997 --> 00:24:27,484 principles, all the principles of of 689 00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:31,279 utilizing the team and communication apply. Right? So 690 00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:33,102 whether it's whether we're gonna pull this off 691 00:24:33,102 --> 00:24:34,528 the market in in 2 years, 692 00:24:35,099 --> 00:24:36,775 how long are we gonna support the the 693 00:24:36,775 --> 00:24:38,849 products that are out there? How long can 694 00:24:38,849 --> 00:24:40,445 somebody keep them and expect to have spare 695 00:24:40,445 --> 00:24:42,440 parts and and support and things like that. 696 00:24:42,934 --> 00:24:44,369 Right? But we we now need to work 697 00:24:44,369 --> 00:24:46,841 with our our communications team and our sales 698 00:24:46,841 --> 00:24:48,834 team and and things like that and in 699 00:24:48,834 --> 00:24:49,232 procurement, 700 00:24:50,030 --> 00:24:52,198 and that side of things, manufacture and say, 701 00:24:52,357 --> 00:24:54,351 okay this is the plan. Right? So you 702 00:24:54,351 --> 00:24:55,627 guys need to have a heads up and 703 00:24:55,627 --> 00:24:57,781 is there anything that you see. Right? That 704 00:24:57,781 --> 00:24:59,615 that's wrong with this. And and so you're 705 00:24:59,615 --> 00:25:01,290 doing the the same thing backwards, 706 00:25:01,704 --> 00:25:03,940 but you need to, again, over communicate and 707 00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:06,654 over plan. And now you're probably rolling back 708 00:25:06,654 --> 00:25:08,091 into some kind of or are we gonna 709 00:25:08,091 --> 00:25:10,726 replace this product or with something similar right? 710 00:25:10,885 --> 00:25:13,289 And so treat everything you've done up to 711 00:25:13,289 --> 00:25:15,198 this point is head start on your V 712 00:25:15,198 --> 00:25:16,710 for the next thing. Right? You you have 713 00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:18,460 learnings. Right? What work and what didn't and 714 00:25:18,460 --> 00:25:19,732 why are we pulling it off the market 715 00:25:19,732 --> 00:25:22,210 and maybe maybe it's just... You can't get 716 00:25:22,210 --> 00:25:24,275 parts or something like that, but maybe the 717 00:25:24,275 --> 00:25:26,023 market's moved and just not meeting the needs, 718 00:25:26,181 --> 00:25:27,849 but you you do have that head start. 719 00:25:28,008 --> 00:25:30,884 So again, talking about utilizing every resource at 720 00:25:30,884 --> 00:25:33,909 at your disposal. Right? Complaint histories and things 721 00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:35,740 like that. Start pulling those and and getting 722 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:37,252 them ready to to move to the next 723 00:25:37,252 --> 00:25:37,412 thing. 724 00:25:38,064 --> 00:25:40,372 Yeah. That's good. That that's my key takeaway 725 00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:42,759 from our discussion and for, listeners as well 726 00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:45,227 just to highlight that again. To make use 727 00:25:45,227 --> 00:25:47,217 of those resources we have to leverage them 728 00:25:47,217 --> 00:25:49,620 when we you... Usually, the product person is 729 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:52,088 the best connected person in the organization because 730 00:25:52,088 --> 00:25:54,397 we have the opportunity and the need to 731 00:25:54,397 --> 00:25:56,719 work with so many other functions. And Yeah, 732 00:25:57,116 --> 00:26:00,054 consequently, we're we're building those relationships and to 733 00:26:00,054 --> 00:26:03,072 take advantage of those resources to find out 734 00:26:03,072 --> 00:26:03,867 what we don't know. 735 00:26:04,518 --> 00:26:06,269 When we don't have time to get to 736 00:26:06,269 --> 00:26:08,020 customers ourselves, How else can we get that 737 00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:08,179 done. 738 00:26:09,055 --> 00:26:12,134 Marketing certainly has some industrial or market type 739 00:26:12,652 --> 00:26:14,882 research that they probably buy as well, and 740 00:26:14,882 --> 00:26:16,554 there's a number of resources to just take 741 00:26:16,554 --> 00:26:16,952 advantage of. 742 00:26:17,828 --> 00:26:17,988 Yeah. 743 00:26:18,704 --> 00:26:20,297 So I like that. Thanks for sharing that 744 00:26:20,297 --> 00:26:20,695 1 with us. 745 00:26:21,506 --> 00:26:24,609 Okay. Anything else on on the life cycle 746 00:26:24,609 --> 00:26:25,962 we wanted to talk about because you know 747 00:26:26,041 --> 00:26:27,394 I'm gonna ask you for an innovation quote 748 00:26:27,394 --> 00:26:29,065 here in a moment. Yeah. I no. It's 749 00:26:29,065 --> 00:26:29,702 good. I mean, 750 00:26:30,591 --> 00:26:32,656 as much as we like to get into 751 00:26:32,656 --> 00:26:35,515 process. Right? And process is sequential. But, you 752 00:26:35,515 --> 00:26:37,420 know, I think the the key point about 753 00:26:37,420 --> 00:26:40,299 being AAA good product manager is to have, 754 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:41,519 a, a big toolkit 755 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:44,240 because you can't plan things out perfectly. 756 00:26:44,539 --> 00:26:46,859 Different organizations are gonna function different ways. They're 757 00:26:46,859 --> 00:26:48,700 gonna have different culture. You're gonna have different 758 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:49,100 resources. 759 00:26:49,592 --> 00:26:51,101 Like we talked about. It's like, I'm I'm 760 00:26:51,101 --> 00:26:52,689 planning on going from here to, but I 761 00:26:52,689 --> 00:26:54,594 stopped have to drive car. Right? Nice talked 762 00:26:54,594 --> 00:26:56,579 have to make some adjustments and and kinda 763 00:26:56,579 --> 00:26:58,246 read things even though I know the the 764 00:26:58,246 --> 00:27:00,726 path I I generally wanna take. And I 765 00:27:00,726 --> 00:27:03,191 think that's a maybe imperfect analogy, but that's 766 00:27:03,191 --> 00:27:05,020 your job is is to get everybody from 767 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:06,134 point a to point b, and it may 768 00:27:06,134 --> 00:27:06,372 not. 769 00:27:07,023 --> 00:27:08,455 Go exactly according to plan. 770 00:27:09,092 --> 00:27:12,512 Yeah. Yeah. When are managers mentors? You like 771 00:27:12,512 --> 00:27:13,728 the analogy where you're 772 00:27:14,038 --> 00:27:16,337 driving the car while changing the tires on 773 00:27:16,337 --> 00:27:17,844 it, and that's just what we have to 774 00:27:17,844 --> 00:27:20,144 do. Right? It's sure. Would just make things 775 00:27:20,144 --> 00:27:22,223 work because we get down the road. And 776 00:27:22,223 --> 00:27:23,499 we think we know where we're going, but 777 00:27:23,499 --> 00:27:25,116 we don't always end up there. So 778 00:27:25,653 --> 00:27:28,205 that's okay. Okay. An innovation quote, we do 779 00:27:28,205 --> 00:27:29,959 like innovation quotes around here. But what do 780 00:27:29,959 --> 00:27:30,916 you have for us? And what does it 781 00:27:30,916 --> 00:27:31,235 mean to you? 782 00:27:31,968 --> 00:27:34,356 Yeah. So in my early days, a product 783 00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:36,905 manager, my first round interviews after coming out 784 00:27:36,905 --> 00:27:37,781 of my first company. 785 00:27:38,418 --> 00:27:39,772 You kinda a little bit, and you think 786 00:27:39,772 --> 00:27:41,543 a lot. Right? So I got hit with 787 00:27:41,543 --> 00:27:43,301 a question during an interview, it said and 788 00:27:43,301 --> 00:27:45,240 what's your definition of innovation. And 789 00:27:46,018 --> 00:27:48,016 whatever answer I gave, it was it was 790 00:27:48,016 --> 00:27:50,584 pretty pretty bad, I guess. But The interviewer 791 00:27:50,584 --> 00:27:52,888 said, look, I think of innovation changes behavior. 792 00:27:53,445 --> 00:27:55,988 Right? Right. Very simple. And whether that's a 793 00:27:55,988 --> 00:27:56,488 perfect 794 00:27:56,942 --> 00:27:59,183 definition or the right definition, it it's stuck 795 00:27:59,183 --> 00:27:59,660 with me to... 796 00:28:00,614 --> 00:28:03,079 Until now because just made me think, right, 797 00:28:03,477 --> 00:28:04,295 over time 798 00:28:04,670 --> 00:28:07,055 about what innovation is and whether it changes 799 00:28:07,055 --> 00:28:07,555 behavior 800 00:28:08,009 --> 00:28:08,487 dramatically, 801 00:28:08,979 --> 00:28:11,691 or enables different behavior enables different things to 802 00:28:11,691 --> 00:28:14,084 happen and really kinda breaking this down and 803 00:28:14,084 --> 00:28:16,397 and now I have this model. This this 804 00:28:16,397 --> 00:28:16,897 creativity, 805 00:28:17,434 --> 00:28:17,593 invention, 806 00:28:18,311 --> 00:28:18,811 innovation 807 00:28:19,203 --> 00:28:20,501 kinda sequence where 808 00:28:20,878 --> 00:28:23,191 creativity is is coming up with ideas whether 809 00:28:23,191 --> 00:28:24,787 you can realize them or not. Right? So, 810 00:28:24,946 --> 00:28:27,498 like, Vinci had very cool drawings. Right? But 811 00:28:27,498 --> 00:28:28,829 he couldn't build those things and 812 00:28:29,425 --> 00:28:31,253 nor would they work. Right? And then you 813 00:28:31,253 --> 00:28:33,160 have invention where you actually can, you know, 814 00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:35,703 build something new and different. Or you've been 815 00:28:35,703 --> 00:28:37,547 sitting around your friend and somebody like, nobody 816 00:28:37,547 --> 00:28:38,900 ever thought it that. We're gonna we're gonna 817 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:41,048 be rich. I... Just because it's new and 818 00:28:41,048 --> 00:28:43,117 and nobody thought of. Doesn't mean it's gonna 819 00:28:43,117 --> 00:28:45,106 work, and I always think of the segue. 820 00:28:45,518 --> 00:28:45,835 The 2. 821 00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:48,398 Is something that fits in there because 822 00:28:48,771 --> 00:28:51,945 it was missing context. It it's technologically. It's 823 00:28:51,945 --> 00:28:53,865 really cool. And it and it worked very 824 00:28:53,865 --> 00:28:55,715 well. But but the idea of transforming 825 00:28:56,088 --> 00:28:57,596 kinda urban living. 826 00:28:58,152 --> 00:29:00,430 Right? It just didn't emerge. Right? You 827 00:29:00,869 --> 00:29:02,465 you wasn't thinking about people living on the 828 00:29:02,465 --> 00:29:04,780 fifth floor without elevators in in New York 829 00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:06,616 City or where were you gonna put these 830 00:29:06,616 --> 00:29:08,612 things when when you went in into a 831 00:29:08,612 --> 00:29:10,775 store or there's a thousand people on the 832 00:29:10,775 --> 00:29:12,442 sidewalk, and you can't run over their feet. 833 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:14,824 Right? So that middle of invention where we 834 00:29:14,824 --> 00:29:16,650 do create something, but it doesn't have the 835 00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:19,373 impact. And then file innovation, whether it's incremental 836 00:29:19,373 --> 00:29:22,245 or kinda big bang innovation where where it 837 00:29:22,245 --> 00:29:22,745 does 838 00:29:23,122 --> 00:29:25,914 create more possibilities or change our behavior for 839 00:29:25,914 --> 00:29:27,030 for better or worse, I guess. 840 00:29:27,923 --> 00:29:30,715 Yep. I like the... Just the reasoning there 841 00:29:30,715 --> 00:29:32,630 that you went through on what elements of 842 00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:35,352 innovation are that creativity the invention. Right? Making 843 00:29:35,352 --> 00:29:37,809 something a new value available to people. And 844 00:29:37,809 --> 00:29:39,077 it came from a job interview. How how 845 00:29:39,077 --> 00:29:40,979 did that job interview go at in the 846 00:29:40,979 --> 00:29:41,137 end? 847 00:29:42,263 --> 00:29:44,254 I did not pursue that. Was actually in 848 00:29:44,254 --> 00:29:47,223 the... It was actually in, like, the cemetery 849 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:51,198 domain making headphones and casket and just wasn't 850 00:29:51,198 --> 00:29:51,835 really something. 851 00:29:52,473 --> 00:29:53,509 Couldn't see myself there. 852 00:29:55,182 --> 00:29:56,935 Very good. Yeah. Just thought we should probably 853 00:29:56,935 --> 00:29:58,051 ask to make sure if we knew how 854 00:29:58,051 --> 00:30:00,209 that. The key characteristics I always think about 855 00:30:00,209 --> 00:30:02,532 what his innovation is that it's a process 856 00:30:02,904 --> 00:30:05,203 and we're creating value for someone. So that 857 00:30:05,203 --> 00:30:07,367 those things stand out always my mind. And 858 00:30:07,446 --> 00:30:09,622 I like communicating that day process 859 00:30:10,399 --> 00:30:12,315 because that immediately tells us that something you 860 00:30:12,315 --> 00:30:14,882 can learn. Right? There... There's discrete steps that 861 00:30:14,882 --> 00:30:16,792 we go through. And and this is 1 862 00:30:16,792 --> 00:30:18,941 reason why I love the Pd Body knowledge 863 00:30:18,941 --> 00:30:20,794 so much. It gives us 864 00:30:21,248 --> 00:30:23,738 lots of processes, tools, concepts 865 00:30:24,049 --> 00:30:26,367 to be aware of, and no 1 needs 866 00:30:26,367 --> 00:30:28,764 them all the time. Right? But as you 867 00:30:28,764 --> 00:30:30,761 said earlier, to just be aware of what 868 00:30:30,761 --> 00:30:32,200 can be done at certain times. 869 00:30:32,851 --> 00:30:35,076 Is really helpful, and can help us get 870 00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:36,744 out of problem in situations and take you 871 00:30:36,744 --> 00:30:37,062 places. 872 00:30:37,618 --> 00:30:40,001 And so good information in that body knowledge 873 00:30:40,001 --> 00:30:40,636 to learn more about. 874 00:30:41,448 --> 00:30:43,203 How can people find out more about you, 875 00:30:43,362 --> 00:30:44,798 John? More about what you're up to? 876 00:30:45,914 --> 00:30:47,372 Basically, just my Linkedin 877 00:30:47,988 --> 00:30:50,461 profiles is pretty robust. And so that would 878 00:30:50,461 --> 00:30:52,555 be the best points. Great. We will add 879 00:30:52,555 --> 00:30:55,035 that to the show notes. John, really delightful 880 00:30:55,035 --> 00:30:57,195 talking with you. Appreciate what you're doing there 881 00:30:57,195 --> 00:30:59,525 in Pittsburgh to help Pd And looking forward 882 00:30:59,525 --> 00:31:01,218 to the next adventure which 883 00:31:01,910 --> 00:31:03,262 we know that you are in the midst 884 00:31:03,262 --> 00:31:06,124 of the transition now, and, if people check 885 00:31:06,124 --> 00:31:07,873 out your Linkedin profile will probably find out 886 00:31:07,873 --> 00:31:08,271 what that is. 887 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,829 Back into health care. So it'll be great. 888 00:31:10,988 --> 00:31:12,577 So thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 889 00:31:12,895 --> 00:31:15,676 Yeah. Thanks for talking about the life lifecycle 890 00:31:15,676 --> 00:31:18,473 phases and some process information to. And listeners 891 00:31:18,473 --> 00:31:20,064 once again, if you want the written show 892 00:31:20,064 --> 00:31:21,892 notes of everything we discussed and that 1 893 00:31:21,892 --> 00:31:24,436 page action guide, Simply go to product mastery 894 00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:26,981 now dot com slash 498. 895 00:31:27,393 --> 00:31:30,014 Keep innovating. Thank you for listening to product 896 00:31:30,014 --> 00:31:33,191 mastery now where product leaders and managers gain 897 00:31:33,191 --> 00:31:35,335 product mastery through practical knowledge. 898 00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:37,289 Influence and confidence. 899 00:31:37,829 --> 00:31:40,470 By listening, you are becoming a product master, 900 00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:45,045 creating products customers love. Find additional resources, at 901 00:31:45,045 --> 00:31:46,884 product mastery now dot com. 902 00:31:47,525 --> 00:31:48,404 Keep innovating.