Welcome to product mastery now where we simplify
the 7 knowledge areas for product mastery. These
are the product management practices that elevate your
career and help you also create products your
customers will love. To see all 7 areas
simply go to product now dot com, and
you'll find more details I'm Chad Mc, a
product management professor,
practitioner and your host.
Today, we're talking about the subject of cycle
management.
Which is a topic covered in the innovation
management knowledge area. And you'll learn what the
phases of your product lifecycle r. How that
life lifecycle might be different for different sorts
of products like Sas products versus hardware products.
And also how you can better navigate the
life cycles for your products.
Joining us is John Ro. He has an
extensive background in new product development that spans
marketing, engineering, verification validation and regulatory compile compliance.
With deep experience in medical technologies.
He was most recently a principal product manager
at Is osaka, a nonprofit organization helping It
professionals
grow their skills in digital trust, and he's
starting a new role as we speak, not
to be revealed yet. John also has served
in roles for the Pittsburgh Pd h after
this the product development management association where the
7 knowledge areas has come from, and he
also served... In 1 of those roles was
the chapter president among others. If you're listening
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now, and you'll find it. Also, we create
a written detailed summary of everything we talked
about along with a 1 page action guide
to help you put into action some of
the key takeaways so that John will share.
To find those resources go to product mastering
dot com slash 498.
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podcast and I fund this podcast by the
training courses I provide for product managers and
leaders to prepare for their next career step.
There are 3 training programs. The first 1
is to help you become a more effective
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The second 1 is to help people move
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John, thanks so much for joining us.
Alright, great to be here. Thanks for having
me chad.
So we've both been associated with Pd Mae
for a bit. You reminded me that we
met a few years ago at the, annual
conference
that year it was in Florida. We have
1 coming up in Saint. Louis in September.
And anyone that wants to check that out.
I'll I'll be there for sure.
I think it's what September fourteenth, I think
it starts. Just go to pd mae dot
0RG and you'll find details on that. But
today, we're gonna talk about the the thing
of life cycle management. Right? And I think
of the life cycle as what happens after
we introduce a project. Right? So the the
product...
The project gets made makes the product for
us. And then it's time to let customers
know about this. And that's kind of that
phase of
introduction, and then hopefully, we see growth in
the marketplace.
Over time, we see competitors take action, we
call that maturity. They're coming in and where
our growth is slowing down in the marketplace.
Our sales are going down. And then at
some point, we reach declining sales.
And then finally,
if we're smart will retire the the product
from the marketplace and not make it available
anymore. I say for smart, a lot of
organizations don't do that step. But there's lots
of there's other ways to think about this
life cycle
And you're involved in teaching this body of
knowledge from Pd mae to 2 people. You
do that through your chapter and other sources
as well. And I'm... I based on your
experience and how you think about this, can
you describe cycle tests?
Yeah. So I think initially, how you described
it is where your head goes. Right? So
traditionally, you had
physical products that that needed to kinda follow
the... That sequence
and when I got into medical devices, that's
what we did. And and not only,
whether it's a physical device or
or software. It's the type of domain. So,
you know, you're much more constrained in regulated
environments as far as what you can do
once the product's launch. So even small updates
and things like that and something like medical
would would look very different
than in some other domain.
And so initially, yes. And and we teach
life cycle and innovation processes 2 separate
classes for the Pd a, by you, knowledge
its workshops. But as you get into that,
you start to see all this overlap and
that where the the life cycle and the
product development process.
Start to become 1 when you get the
into software in Saas. Right? So
it's interesting as far as how you manage
manage things and how you do your job
as a product manager, how you work with
the organization, Right? To manage your products. Right?
So you don't always have a big bang
right, launch, like, with the physical products, you
can kinda ease things out into the market.
You can use the software itself as part
of your research.
Right? Things like concierge general p's and fake
doors and things like that. Just to get
just to gauge interest. Right? You can have
people sign up for things and... And you're
now doing research with prototypes
everything starts to get blurred and it it
makes for a really
interesting
perspective and on how you do your job
and how you need to
get kinda navigate things. Yeah. Well let's talk
about that blurring a little bit. Most of
my product work has been involved new to
the world sort of things. Right? Something
truly new products in the since they did
not exist before. But most product managers are
involved in, making something better, Right? Taking an
existing product moving it from the current version
to the next version, which we also call
new product development. It's just... But it... It's
being built upon. It's new in that sense.
And as you say the... What we think
of as the process
for making something new. That applies
anywhere we happen to be. Right? If it's
the
new insight, flash of lightning. We we we
understand a customer problem that no 1 has
solved before. We have a process to take
that from idea through business case to
developing a solution. Right and and making it
real for people. And then as I described
the life cycle, the phases of of the
life cycle, I started when that product is
introduced to the market. The first time.
But we still have the same... We have
a process that underline that because we're... If
we wanna see growth we're making some changes
overcoming that Cas problem that we usually run
into. And if we're in maturity and competitors
are stealing our market share, we're making changes.
We're still going through a... Some sort of
process to to develop new an air quote
tear product because we are doing new new
work to it. I don't know where you
wanna go with this next... I was think
maybe an example might help us think through
the sub or just kinda how you see
the
phases
being applied and what those phases are.
Yeah.
So with with those hardware products, you do
have that sequence. Right? So you can have
some iteration in there and and things like
that. But those phases are are pretty sequential.
When you get those software, Right? You have
all those things going in parallel.
Right? You have things that you're building. You
have constant
feedback from the field from the sales team
from your customer service from the the research
you're doing. Right? You're developing in parallel while
they're actually writing, developing features and things like
that. And 1 of the challenges I hear
from product manager and and really gets to
disco confusion. Right, with Agile and I'm a
Po, but I don't have time to talk
to people. I'm really mir in the backlog
And what is my role is how to
juggle all this. Right? So different
organizations have different structures. So you might be
the Po
product, you know, owner and you're it.
So you're writing stories and you're trying to
keep out of the dev team and things
like that. And and and the idea that
you could spend days or hours talking to
customers and recruiting customers, things like that. It's
really not
realistic. Right? But for me, right? That that
feedback is is core and and foundational. So
that... That's a a huge difference, and that's
a huge problem that I see where people
are struggling to maintain those parallel paths where
they're doing.
A lot of these stages at the same
time. Yeah. Let let's unwind that a little
bit. Anyone has been around product for a
little bit, and if you listen to any
kind of startup stories as well.
We know this is important to be talking
to customers.
And most people that that talk about this,
say, 30 percent of your time, give or
take, a third of your time. Should be
engaging customers. And the reality is we're almost
always way too busy, and that feels like
a luxury, like to actually be learning from
our customers.
So some organizations,
I wouldn't say they throw their hands up,
but they're not addressing that problem at all,
And they push it off to an another.
I see sales sometimes taking that function. And
product people, like you said that, like, the
a product owner there, they're just trying to
do their best to respond to what sales
wants and translate that into user stories or
some other description of
capabilities what he's needed for the team to
bill. What have you seen in trying or
what's... Been your experience to try to just
manage that maybe by dividing up the role
or just thinking about it differently.
How do we help with this if we're
not talking to customers?
Yeah. So I was spoiled when I started
my career. Right? Doing medical devices, we had
a dedicated, whether it was 6 months, 9
months. Right, period for doing voice of customers.
And back then, we were traveling all over
the world all over the tree and and
doing them in person. So so that was
my out of the gate experience, what I
thought was normal. But 1 of the things
we talk about in the pd and class
is what's it like in the real world.
Like, we're throwing things up on the board
here and and showing you what theoretically something
should look like. But you have to make
decisions and and deal with the resources you
have as a product manager. And and 1
company is gonna be different than another company
you might have Ux researchers to help you.
You may not
you may have sales that some of those
guys can be really insightful or sales are
just lasting you with. We have have this
feature and very self interested because if you
give them that feature, maybe maybe they're gonna
land a big deal. So I I think
the best way to do it is to
use all your channels.
Right? So maybe you have time, that you
can plan time.
A couple weeks from now in schedule maybe
5 dedicated interviews, like what we think of
proper V 1 on 1 type interviews, But
there's no reason you can't just be a
fly on the wall for sales calls. Talk
to customer service and and and listen in.
And just bring all those things in, leverage
your maze if you if you have them.
And and that's... I think where product manager
is gonna really are earn their money as
you've got all these desperate disparate channels of
of feedback, and and you need to align
it with your goals and your vision for
the product. But you can't just accumulate a
a list of a thousand product requests. Right?
That's... There has to be something that you're
weighing those against, and that has to be
your product vision. So just using all all
those resources and then being able to kinda
sit through the signal with the noise to
find the signal and and go from there.
Yeah. It's a great tip to use the
resources you have. And and I really wanna
pursue that for a moment, But I'll try
to do it in the context of of
the life cycle here. There's so many pass
and go down. To to use the tips,
the... I mean, so you to leverage the
resources you have. The our ability is product
people,
to gain somehow trust to have rapport to
develop that with others. Is really key. Right?
And and I know 1 thing that helped
me a lot in 1 of my roles
was
I I became trusted by the sales team.
And so I could couple...
And they were encouraging this as well. Right?
Wasn't my brain idea. They were encouraging this.
But
I could couple customer interviews with furthering sales
activity and making the salesperson trust me even
more. Because they would see...
I don't want to start advocating that product
people need to be going out on sales
calls all the time because that messes up
our roll a little bit too. But we
do need to have customer contact and understand
the problem, so those customer interviews are essential
for us.
And you can have sales
set those meetings up for you,
and they get the benefit for... That are
seen by their customer is bringing a value
resource to them,
because now the the company wants to understand
what the problems the customer are. And as
long as you have the relationship with the
salespeople people that they understand, this truly is
not a sales call, This is for us
to learn more deeply what the problem is.
That works out really well.
I think it largely depends on the relationship
you have with the salespeople people.
Yeah. Developing those partnerships is is huge.
Vice versa when we do those formal V.
Right?
Invite your marketing person, obviously,
your designer, maybe your tech lead and things
like that. Bring them in, make them part
of that. And and and maybe... And you
need to be organized. Right? You don't want
5 people talking to the customer on a
Zoom call. Right? But I'm the lead interviewer
and you guys are gonna be over here
and and with Zoom, you can be shooting
messages back and forth. Like, hey, ask him
this.
Or or to say hey, guys. Does anybody
have any follow ups here. I'll pause for
a second. Right Getting people involved and making
them part of it. Is is so much
more powerful and efficient than saying, I'm the
product manager.
Here's what you're going to do and it's
coming for me and making it very transactional.
Yeah. Absolutely. If you can have part of
the development team involved in those activities.
There's less translation errors that occur. Right? Oh,
they get to hear from the user firsthand,
kinda under the problem. That was just great.
So tying this back to life cycle, these
are the things we care about
as you said, in your example there doing
the medical device work. If you were doing
6 7 months of V on the front
end, that clearly takes place pre development.
But we're also doing it all throughout the
life cycle, Like, when we go from... We're
starting to see a little uptick in sales
growth where we're trying to get that after
we introduce introduce product and we can't can't
quite get over the chasm yet to our,
maybe our first course niche of a market
we're trying to get after.
We're we're we're looking at
feedback from customers to understand what to do
next. And if that's all we're doing is
just taking requests from customers and features,
to put in. But that that might help
us down the path. Maybe we get lucky
and that's exactly what we need to do.
But it doesn't only help us understand the
problem more deeply.
So we still have the same need to
be analyzing what what the customer's problem actually
is. Yeah.
In the threshold for making a change in
something like medical voice is is very high.
Right? So you really need to be hearing
it from a lot of people and... And
really, the the... Those requests really should just
be the start of the process.
Are you now you need to go and
say, why am I hearing this so much?
And and do your your due diligence? Like,
why are they asking about this? And and
and what are they trying to accomplish?
That's the big thing. You know, I'll go
back to my last role and non medical
with cybersecurity, I managed an enterprise platform for
organizations to manage their cybersecurity.
Right? And
you... Your initial impression might be, They need
to know what to do and they need
this this really. But they were just they
were struggling with trying to navigate the organization.
So these... The the reporting we had was
not so much to show them what they
were doing.
It was for them to take it in
their hand and communicate to people who are
non cybersecurity people. So until you start digging
into that and understanding
what the purpose is. Right? Whether you call
job to be done or whatever.
But but the true why,
that's what gives you confidence
to to push things in 1 direction or
the other. Right. K. Continue on with life
cycle. So the... You, if, we're in the
growth phase that... As we're helping to see
rapid advancements in our our market share increase
and customers finding us, and we're doing a
good job for them.
And if we're doing He's sufficiently good job.
There's gonna be some competitors that take notice
and don't like having... If they're in the
same marketplace. Don't like having their market share
decrease.
Or they see opportunity. Right? To to do
something that we're doing. And if they're doing
it wisely, they're going to probably learn from
what we've done, so take advantage of of
all that effort like those months of V.
Right? And in some sense copy aspects of
our product. But if they're doing it wisely,
also they're understanding the customer's problem, they're making
what we did better, and that's when we're
into the maturity phase where we see our
sales slow down and customers choosing other options
available to them instead of us. From your
medical experience,
what takes place at that point where you
start seeing those sales decline
and you wanna take action to
restore your market share position or somehow fend
off the competitors.
Sure. I think
what we need to realize and and we
get... When you talk about software, it's all
it's a lot about introducing value
in terms of features. Right?
We need to make sure that that we're
working with our marketing group and and we
talked about sales, Right, Or the messaging that's
getting to the the the customer. Is it
resonating with them. So all that V work
we did. Right? And said this is where
we're going. And this is the value we're
we think we're gonna provide
is that making it, you know, to their
front door. Is that what they're hearing? And
and and so using all your all your
channels, so you're in charge of you, charge
pricing or you have some influence over pricing.
So there's things that are non
in not in the feet... Not in the
feature bucket. Right? That we should be doing
is managers. Do you have do you have
good relationships with those hospitals. There is a
lot of loyalty in health care in in
certain
aspects. Right? People use these things every day.
1 thing that stands out to me and
and and when we did voice a customer,
you'd really wanna look and find these like
little nuggets. And it was a nurse, and
we would capture these things and things called
image diagrams. Right? Just things that were like,
really powerful stood out to us. And she
said, man, when I can't get that injector
set up. Like, the doctor comes in, he's
ready to do procedure, and he's so mad,
and I just feel like awful. Mh. Right?
So that... That's that resonates. So if you
can build a product,
that's helping them do their job. Right? So
it's somewhat transparent and and they can feel
like, hey, this is not imp me from
providing good patient care. Right? You can establish
a lot of loyalty that way. Right? And
and then when you have your support staff
there because you have customer people and and
sales guys and and girls in the hospitals
themselves. Right? Just maintaining that type relationship and
and that goes a long way. Yeah. Absolutely.
The the relationship relationships matter of the people
that you meet during the Vlc work and
capturing their words literally in their perspective and
trying to respond to his needs. I should've
have been taking a note on this because
you said something I wanna ask you about
couple minutes ago, I forget now exactly how
you worded it, but was... In the sense
if the knowledge that you learned from a
V,
isn't making its way. I think maybe you
said through the marketing door that people are
missing some aspects of this. Tell us more
about what you meant by that.
So everybody kinda has that cy that people
trying to market this thing to me. Right?
It's marketing. I think in the real world,
that only goes so far. Right? If you
don't have a solid value proposition. And you
don't really understand what you're trying to accomplish?
Right, with your product? What... What's the problem?
What's your solution? How are they connected
Right?
Marketing people can't work magic without that. But
if you have a a very consistent and
strong tie between that value proposition that you've
discovered,
Right? The solution that you have in the
middle and in the messaging you're sending out
through marketing through your sales, saying this... This
is what we're trying to trying to do
for you. This is what we're trying to
help you with. If it's real and if
it's validated,
value proposition, that is going to resonate with,
you know, potential customers and they're gonna... They're
gonna you're and enough credibility.
Yep. Good. So I assume we ended up
where we did with that because of the
the regulatory environment.
And what I mean is we're talking about
maturity, How do we kinda defend from the
competitor.
And obvious options would be Well, we need
to make the product better in some sense
that can be software or hardware at least
in this context we're talking about. But either
changes to either 1 of those,
means we have regulatory hurdles to go through,
which is
that that becomes a much larger issue now
because of the the regulated
industry. Sure.
An the example you brought up, which I
probably what even I've thought about is let's
reevaluate how we're positioning the product to meet
the needs of the customer.
And make sure we're communicating in in a
way that the customer recognizes, we understand their
problem and this solution as they answer to
their problem in way that really creates enormous
value for them.
Absolutely.
Again,
you're limited and in the medical world and
in other world domains as well. Right? Credibility
is usually important. Right? You you have. Yep.
I highly paid doctors and and your
professional
clinicians.
You don't wanna waste your time, you don't
want them to think that you don't know
what you're talking about. So It's very important.
Yep. Absolutely. K. Good. The...
And I think this is a place where
product managers can add great value and it
gets missed in organizations, and sounds like when
your experience may have been missed too. Because
the product team, the V work that gets
done, product managers involved in that, and we
come up with the key value propositions. That's
what the design of the product is built
around it to to answer those needs with
the customer.
And then by the time launch happens, and
there's a marketing
group involved. Some what we learned from the
V can get dropped
from the marketing group. Right?
And that was gold that came up in
the V effort,
and the marketing group just has positioned to
maybe
off the instead of true north where we
thought we were headed. Right? We're a few
degrees off of that. Or they're using words
that the organization that I have seen this
1 a lot. The organization
turns the language that we learned in V
into organizational speak. It's like, we don't wanna
stop may... Say that just sounds
to informal or something. Right? And we kinda
lose the effectiveness then of being able to
connect with people that we actually understand the
problem.
Right. And and if it goes back to
bringing people in to your team. Mean, I
think about it as a product development team
and each person has different roles. Versus I'm
just doing product management. Right? So if we
can't leave marketing right, to to the end.
Right? They should be brought in early. Like
I said, invite them to the voice of
the customer.
Right, at the beginning. They don't have to
be in everyone, but maybe they're in in
readout outs and things like that to beginning.
So they're aware, right, of of the path
you're taking, and then they can... Maybe you're
not good it marketing. Marketing not my thing.
So when I have my marketing
resource. I'll tell them, hey. Look.
I'll give you this and and you're kinda
driving the marketing thing, you tell me what
you need, You tell me what what you
wanna do, When do you wanna do it
and things like that. So bring them in
and and let them own it, but provide
them what they need to be successful. K.
That makes sense. K. And and and the
2 other options there are the main option
of We just wanna make our product better
when we're in that maturity phase to ward
off the the competitors.
We'd need to be careful that we're not
now copying the competitors.
Which don't put features in just because your
competitors have them because you're kinda guessing if
they responded to an actual need or not
or if they're just having features themselves. And
so once again, understanding the customer's problem and
their unmet needs at that point, is really
important so that we can do the smart
thing and make our product better.
It is and the cost have change to
physical devices is a lot
greater than to a software device. Right? There
there's large companies that can deploy multiple
versions of a of a a big feature.
Right? And within 24 hours or 48 hours,
they have feedback because their user base is
so enormous. And so they can run those.
Little live experiments on a on a consistent
basis, which is is much different than what
the with the hardware product.
Yep. Exactly. If you've ever gone a Google
to do a and 1 day. You go,
wow. This doesn't look right. And Right. 10
seconds later. You wrote another search. Oh, it's
back. Right. It's like. You you got selected
as the 0 little percent of people that
saw that Ui. I do want to... So
after we... After maturity,
if our product is not the shiny bright
1 anymore, and there are better options in
the marketplace and we're... For whatever reasons have
chosen not to try to
maintain our our positioning if they keep our
product up. We're gonna reach decline, see those
sales decrease.
At some point, the effort to keep the
product available is going to be much more
expensive than just retiring it. And I don't
know if you have any comments on retiring.
I don't know if you've ever been a
situation where actually had to retire a product,
make it not available anymore?
Sure. Sure. I have. And it's
it's a... Different activity. Right? You're taking AAA
product off the market, but some of the
principles, all the principles of of
utilizing the team and communication apply. Right? So
whether it's whether we're gonna pull this off
the market in in 2 years,
how long are we gonna support the the
products that are out there? How long can
somebody keep them and expect to have spare
parts and and support and things like that.
Right? But we we now need to work
with our our communications team and our sales
team and and things like that and in
procurement,
and that side of things, manufacture and say,
okay this is the plan. Right? So you
guys need to have a heads up and
is there anything that you see. Right? That
that's wrong with this. And and so you're
doing the the same thing backwards,
but you need to, again, over communicate and
over plan. And now you're probably rolling back
into some kind of or are we gonna
replace this product or with something similar right?
And so treat everything you've done up to
this point is head start on your V
for the next thing. Right? You you have
learnings. Right? What work and what didn't and
why are we pulling it off the market
and maybe maybe it's just... You can't get
parts or something like that, but maybe the
market's moved and just not meeting the needs,
but you you do have that head start.
So again, talking about utilizing every resource at
at your disposal. Right? Complaint histories and things
like that. Start pulling those and and getting
them ready to to move to the next
thing.
Yeah. That's good. That that's my key takeaway
from our discussion and for, listeners as well
just to highlight that again. To make use
of those resources we have to leverage them
when we you... Usually, the product person is
the best connected person in the organization because
we have the opportunity and the need to
work with so many other functions. And Yeah,
consequently, we're we're building those relationships and to
take advantage of those resources to find out
what we don't know.
When we don't have time to get to
customers ourselves, How else can we get that
done.
Marketing certainly has some industrial or market type
research that they probably buy as well, and
there's a number of resources to just take
advantage of.
Yeah.
So I like that. Thanks for sharing that
1 with us.
Okay. Anything else on on the life cycle
we wanted to talk about because you know
I'm gonna ask you for an innovation quote
here in a moment. Yeah. I no. It's
good. I mean,
as much as we like to get into
process. Right? And process is sequential. But, you
know, I think the the key point about
being AAA good product manager is to have,
a, a big toolkit
because you can't plan things out perfectly.
Different organizations are gonna function different ways. They're
gonna have different culture. You're gonna have different
resources.
Like we talked about. It's like, I'm I'm
planning on going from here to, but I
stopped have to drive car. Right? Nice talked
have to make some adjustments and and kinda
read things even though I know the the
path I I generally wanna take. And I
think that's a maybe imperfect analogy, but that's
your job is is to get everybody from
point a to point b, and it may
not.
Go exactly according to plan.
Yeah. Yeah. When are managers mentors? You like
the analogy where you're
driving the car while changing the tires on
it, and that's just what we have to
do. Right? It's sure. Would just make things
work because we get down the road. And
we think we know where we're going, but
we don't always end up there. So
that's okay. Okay. An innovation quote, we do
like innovation quotes around here. But what do
you have for us? And what does it
mean to you?
Yeah. So in my early days, a product
manager, my first round interviews after coming out
of my first company.
You kinda a little bit, and you think
a lot. Right? So I got hit with
a question during an interview, it said and
what's your definition of innovation. And
whatever answer I gave, it was it was
pretty pretty bad, I guess. But The interviewer
said, look, I think of innovation changes behavior.
Right? Right. Very simple. And whether that's a
perfect
definition or the right definition, it it's stuck
with me to...
Until now because just made me think, right,
over time
about what innovation is and whether it changes
behavior
dramatically,
or enables different behavior enables different things to
happen and really kinda breaking this down and
and now I have this model. This this
creativity,
invention,
innovation
kinda sequence where
creativity is is coming up with ideas whether
you can realize them or not. Right? So,
like, Vinci had very cool drawings. Right? But
he couldn't build those things and
nor would they work. Right? And then you
have invention where you actually can, you know,
build something new and different. Or you've been
sitting around your friend and somebody like, nobody
ever thought it that. We're gonna we're gonna
be rich. I... Just because it's new and
and nobody thought of. Doesn't mean it's gonna
work, and I always think of the segue.
The 2.
Is something that fits in there because
it was missing context. It it's technologically. It's
really cool. And it and it worked very
well. But but the idea of transforming
kinda urban living.
Right? It just didn't emerge. Right? You
you wasn't thinking about people living on the
fifth floor without elevators in in New York
City or where were you gonna put these
things when when you went in into a
store or there's a thousand people on the
sidewalk, and you can't run over their feet.
Right? So that middle of invention where we
do create something, but it doesn't have the
impact. And then file innovation, whether it's incremental
or kinda big bang innovation where where it
does
create more possibilities or change our behavior for
for better or worse, I guess.
Yep. I like the... Just the reasoning there
that you went through on what elements of
innovation are that creativity the invention. Right? Making
something a new value available to people. And
it came from a job interview. How how
did that job interview go at in the
end?
I did not pursue that. Was actually in
the... It was actually in, like, the cemetery
domain making headphones and casket and just wasn't
really something.
Couldn't see myself there.
Very good. Yeah. Just thought we should probably
ask to make sure if we knew how
that. The key characteristics I always think about
what his innovation is that it's a process
and we're creating value for someone. So that
those things stand out always my mind. And
I like communicating that day process
because that immediately tells us that something you
can learn. Right? There... There's discrete steps that
we go through. And and this is 1
reason why I love the Pd Body knowledge
so much. It gives us
lots of processes, tools, concepts
to be aware of, and no 1 needs
them all the time. Right? But as you
said earlier, to just be aware of what
can be done at certain times.
Is really helpful, and can help us get
out of problem in situations and take you
places.
And so good information in that body knowledge
to learn more about.
How can people find out more about you,
John? More about what you're up to?
Basically, just my Linkedin
profiles is pretty robust. And so that would
be the best points. Great. We will add
that to the show notes. John, really delightful
talking with you. Appreciate what you're doing there
in Pittsburgh to help Pd And looking forward
to the next adventure which
we know that you are in the midst
of the transition now, and, if people check
out your Linkedin profile will probably find out
what that is.
Back into health care. So it'll be great.
So thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Yeah. Thanks for talking about the life lifecycle
phases and some process information to. And listeners
once again, if you want the written show
notes of everything we discussed and that 1
page action guide, Simply go to product mastery
now dot com slash 498.
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