This episode of the dig is brought to
you by our listeners who support us at
patreon dot com and by hay market books.
As global crises deepen,
social movements are striving toward new visions and
experimenting with new strategies.
From Palestine to the Us and beyond, radical
politics have re emerged as necessary for both
survival and full
liberation.
At this critical juncture,
the socialism conference
August t through September second in Chicago
will be a vital gathering place for today's
left.
Join thousands of activists and organizers to learn
from each other in history,
assess ongoing struggles.
And experience the energy of in person gatherings.
Featured speakers at socialism 20 24.
Will include Ara Roy, Ruth Wilson Gilmore, N
Era,
Muhammad occurred, Il Pap, Roxanne Dunbar ortiz, Nick
Est,
Vincent Bev,
J Gil Peterson, Der Per, me, Daniel Denver,
Rachel Her, Sarah Ja, Si shah,
Ashley Dawson, and many many more.
The socialism conference brought to you by hay
market books. Visit socialism
conference
dot org. To learn more and register today.
Hope to see you there.
Welcome to the Dig, a podcast from Jack
Magazine.
My name is Daniel Denver, and I'm broadcasting
from Providence Rhode Island.
This is the fifteenth episode of Fa,
the digs series on twentieth century Arab politics
with historian Abdul R to Cr.
Fa is Arabic 4,
revolution.
It's a word that contains historical multitudes,
diverse political radical
and revolt. That have swept across arab lands
over the past century.
We are nearing the very end of the.
This
is the second of 3 episodes on the
Palestinian
revolution.
A trilogy
that will bring our story of
radical twentieth century arab politics to a close.
Here, we pick up where we left off
last time.
The Palestinian
revolution establishing training camps, headquarters, bases,
alongside social and political infrastructure in frontline states
surrounding the zion settle state of Israel,
Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.
Meanwhile, Palestinians in the pre 67 borders of
Israel
continued to struggle
often through the Israeli communist party Mo.
And later, through its anti zion splinter party,
Ra.
But the Palestinian
revolution was concentrating its forces
just outside the borders of historic Palestine,
which with the 19 67 Arab military defeat
had been entirely conquered by the Israeli state.
Jordan
with its massive Palestinian
population in long border with Israel,
was the Palestinian
revolutions first and logical
headquarters.
In Lebanon,
the Palestinian
revolution liberated
refugee camps from the brutal rep ref of
the Lebanese governments Took bureau and secured the
right to maintain an open gorilla presence in
the country.
Syria,
during the period when it was ruled by
military Bath, sal at eat from 19 66
through 19 70.
Allowed training camps on its territory,
but discouraged cross border attacks from its soil.
After the 19 67 arab defeat. And the
subsequent huge prestige earned by the Palestinian
revolution in the wake of the 19 68
battle of Karma.
The Palestinian
revolution won enormous freedom of action in these
frontline states.
But at the same time, the presence of
an armed Palestinian movement.
Some of whose factions
sought to overthrow
reactionary arab regimes
alongside zion state.
Created problems,
including the problem
of brutally
disproportionate Israeli rep.
It was this dynamic that led into black
September. The 19 70 Jordan
monarch
assault on P o gorilla fighters.
The violent ex of the P from Jordan
that followed was hugely consequential,
causing the Palestinian
revolution to relocate its headquarters to Lebanon.
In Lebanon, the P then sought to build
up its military presence and capacity in the
country's south. Within striking distance of the Zion
enemy.
And it allied with domestic forces
against right wing marina philanthropist
militias.
And against the entire secretary
colonial order.
The P had to fight off whether constant
Israeli attacks.
Including an assassination campaign
against cultural and political leaders.
This dynamic in Lebanon would lead to civil
wars.
And Israeli invasion and ultimately,
to the 19 82 Israeli siege of Beirut
into the P subsequent
evacuation.
This marked the end of the Palestinian
revolution and the entire era of Era revolution.
A story that we will tell in the
next episode.
Meanwhile,
black September was also the pre
event behind Raf A assad launching a coup
in Syria
that ousted his 1 time bath military ally,
sal indeed from power.
Assad coup in Syria,
combined with the rise of Saddam hussein in
newly
rock.
Spelled the end of ba
once a
promise in both countries.
And really across the entire era world.
Making matters worse.
The his historic tribune of Pan arab nationalism
revolutionary dream was sun setting from the regional
political scene.
It was in September 19 70, the Gem
Del No died,
precisely as he tried to negotiate an end
to the fighting in Jordan.
No, as T listeners know very well by
now.
Was an unparalleled
icon of arab nationalism and arab socialism.
The leader of a region wide struggle against
western imperial and zion.
In the mid 19 fifties,
No had been riding high.
After defeating the western aligned baghdad dad military
pact
and holding off the tri aggression in suez.
It was a series of victories that culminated
in the formation of the United Arab Republic
in 19 58.
But Syria
succession in 19 61,
and then the catastrophic
era lost to Israel in 19 67.
Had attenuated No power.
After No death, An Sad to control in
Egypt.
Sid saddam would go on to definitively end
the country's vanguard role in Arab
revolution.
And
instead make Egypt a leading architect of a
new
accommodation with reaction and imperialist power.
Nevertheless,
conflict between Israel and Arab states persisted and
then exploded again when Sid Egypt and Assad
Syria launched the surprise October war of 19
73.
It was not an overwhelming arab victory.
But Egypt and Syria battlefield
successes in the face of massive Us arms
shipments to Israel.
Dented the zion settle states aura of military
and redeemed in part,
a sequence of arab military failures stretching back
to 19 48.
At the same time, an oil embargo against
the Us in other countries backing Israel launched
by arab states, made the use of the
oil weapon in anti imperialist
geopolitics
newly think.
But the arab world would not collectively achieve
any real benefit from these victories.
These tactical and martial achievements
came precisely
when the power of left wing and anti
imperialist politics
was declining across the region
at least within the commanding heights of state
power.
The United States with Henry Kissing at the
lead under president's Nixon and Ford,
exploited the opening and embarked on a diplomatic
strategy,
of dis uniting Arab countries from 1 another,
and also simultaneously
and very much related
from the Palestinian cause.
That approach fit perfectly with Sid goal of
ending the arab of revolution to make peace
with the American empire and with Israel
in exchange for the latter returning the sinai
peninsula.
A traitor is piece that was made in
19 77
in 19 78,
in which we will discuss in our next
episode.
We end this episode by assessing the nature
and causes of the Us relationship with Israel,
a fraught,
controversial and extremely important question.
Before we get this episode rolling, we are
so close to the end of the series,
and I just want to ask you to
join other listeners in supporting the podcast at
petri patreon dot com slash the dig.
1 more episode of Thought what I left.
And then an Epi blog.
It's been a huge project
very much unlike anything we've ever done, and
we're doing it
because it is precisely the justification and duration
of this history of Arab and Palestinian
revolutionary politics,
that is a substantial part of the Edi
upon which the legitimacy of contemporary
western imperial
and zion
has been constructed.
This is a political education project, and we
make it free for all,
regardless of your ability to pay.
That is an absolute priority for us. And
it's only possible
because those of you who want to contribute
and can afford to contribute do so at
patreon dot com slash the dig.
All contributors
receive our excellent newsletter by email.
And depending on where you live and how
much you contribute
we have gifts to send you in the
mail, including tote bags, coffee mugs, books, and
we are working on a fa poster.
Anyhow.
Contribute now if you can afford to support
us and you appreciate what we do.
Many of you are like, oh,
maybe I'll do it next week. I get
it, but please just
do it now.
That's PATRE0N
dot com slash the dig.
Finally, if you're in London on July 20
sixth.
Come see me and Eleanor penn,
interviewing Jeremy Corbyn and La K on the
politics of left wing international.
That following a live recording of the Macro
podcast
with James Midway, Theo Franco, Dahlia Gabriel, and.
Tickets are going fast.
Buy them now.
There's a link in the show notes.
Okay. Here's Del R Cri, who teaches history
at Rice University.
A scholar of Arab and Palestinian
revolutionary movements. He's the author of monsoon
revolution, Republicans,
Sultan and empires in Oman.
And the c author of the Palestinian
Revolution Digital Humanity's website.
And that website, I'm pleased to report
is back up and running. There are a
few king store out a few broken links
to fix, but
The Palestinian
Revolution digital Humanity's website is up and running.
There's a link in the show notes, please.
Check it out.
The Palestinian
revolution required bases
and a headquarters
outside of historic Palestine.
And and for those things,
they looked to frontline states border
the Israeli Zion settle state,
Jordan,
Lebanon
and Syria.
What in the period leading up to black
September in 19 70.
Did the Palestinian
revolutions
relationship
with and presence in each of these countries
look like?
Yeah. So so if we tie this actually
to the question of political architecture in the
in the P,
we see that
Out of that understood when he was constructing
it
that you need to account for regional
interventions in the past arena as we mentioned.
And and the regional dimension is important because
the palestinians are refugee people.
And internal action within Palestine
was now
repressed.
So as we mentioned earlier in the episode,
the attempts to launch our revolution in the
West bank, for example, had been suppressed and
nip about early on on the part of.
So what was known as the second second
and Tal the second launch.
Was aborted.
The attempts of other policy information to create
also armed action were
nip in the butt.
So
you had,
therefore,
I need to intervene in the broader regional
arena.
And to ensure that there would be palestinian
freedom of work
and the broader regional arena, especially in the
states that had
borders
with
the Israeli ce colonial state. So and that
meant Lebanon
Syria and and and Jordan.
Notice that I omitted egypt
because what tended to happen,
and this is fairly typical in these situations,
is that
strong states
that are still fully in control over their
internal boundaries,
will not
allow you to operate,
unless they want you to operate within their
borders.
And in general, most strong states in the
region did not want their borders
to be theaters of operations for...
For the.
That's because they
prioritize national security needs,
but also,
It's because they had very big calculations relating
to geo strategic, this ji broader global geo
strategic arena.
Additionally, in the case of Egypt, of course,
they had no control or resign.
Which meant that there were no suitable
places to establish with the groups even
if the egyptian state, which is a strong
state.
Internally.
You know, it's it's it has a full
control over. Its internal arena or or a
great deal of control over Center earlier.
You know, it was it was not gonna
allow that. So the pas revolution then had
to,
deal with the with 3 options and and
it in these 3 arenas, Lebanon, Siri joy
them.
Most of the focus in the period 19
67 to 19 70 was, of course, un
jordan.
That's natural because Jordan
has a majority Palestinian
population.
And
east bankrupt
population who are what what you would call
Jordan jordan the. Okay?
They is sympathetic.
Very sympathetic.
They're they're they're culturally politically
and socially
extremely intertwined with Palestine in the palestinian in
people,
and not in the ways the designers describe
it as an alternative homeland. We spoke about
this million times, but it doesn't hurt to
be reiterated it.
The idea of of of liberating Palestine is
essential there.
So
you had
a popular atmosphere that was conducive
to
starting
operations there.
Jordan also had lost
the West Bank. It remember it that annexed
it. So in technical terms,
there was another incentive,
politically,
This was
a country that had lost territory.
So we would have been difficult for the
government there to come and confront
this project of regaining the land
through organizing armed revolutionary struggle
without clashing with a will of of broad
popular.
Sections.
Eventually, of course,
the Monarch government did find a way
to mobilize
social forces against their evolution, but that will
get to that in a second.
Lebanon was a more complicated arena.
Because Lebanon
was such a deeply divided society
by design.
You know, politically,
it was divided by design. The French had
designed it as such,
even in the ottoman period,
there was,
that process started, you know? And for people
who wanna understand how that worked,
you know, I think we might have referenced
this book before but or saint disease culture
of sec. It's a very good place to
start. In nineteenth century, you have all sorts
of
social conflicts, but also colonial
interventions
that intersect to produce a culture of sec
experience.
3 have sec in this space.
And by by that, we mean that there
there are active political forces,
that operate in accordance with declared,
you know, logic that serves particular sex.
And sometimes in political science, they refer to
the as a constitutional,
and they're trying to put a positive spin
on it.
But what it does really is that there's
clusters and there centered, there are leadership within
specific religious communities.
In the
French tradition around Lebanon Colonial Elite. They had
set up the whole system and we talked
about this before.
In a way the privileged marina Christians,
and
many ways, this
shi
citizens from the south.
But also, there were other
religious minorities that felt that they didn't have
their fair share of the political buy or
the... And and there were others,
particularly those belonging to the left.
That rejected the logic of the system as
a whole,
to core.
You know, if you're a communists, you're not
gonna be a fan of the idea of
organizing your political life based on sec.
This is insanity.
Even if you're basic liberal, this is insanity.
Because you'd be thinking, well, we're all citizens.
Why?
What what is this thing about? Like, I'm
a I'm a a marinate Christian and you're
orthodox Christian and the other person and is
a Ga and muslim and then there's a.
So they're are 18 major sex and many
more out there.
So
These forces that were disgruntled with the system,
either because they did not have enough representation
in it,
or because they rejected the logic of it,
which are the leftist test forces, of course,
the secular left,
they
tended to
be sympathetic to the idea of a Palestinian
armed presence in in Lebanon.
And
there was also another factor which was important
which is that in many of those circles,
anyways, there was a strong anti colonial
ideology in operation
and an ideology that emphasized the injustice
that was reflecting the pas people.
Remember Lebanon absorbed
refugees.
Many. And people saw their misery, than you
about
Israeli practices
early on, but also they witnessed them first
firsthand.
And that left a deep impact, especially in
the south of the country but also elsewhere,
And
many in lebanon had, either a pan ar
airbus ideology or a different islamic ideologies or
leftist ideologies.
Were aligned with with the idea of Palestinian
liberation. And and the reason why I mentioned
this is that in today's discussions in love,
you know, many people say, the showed up,
and, you know, they entered the country entered
into chaos and so on. Well, actually, let
me on at under the... Take at had
had just come out of its own internal
civil war that we described in an earlier
episode. Okay? And and and and which had
witnessed the the first and most major American
military intervention and landing. K?
And
the political outcome was not decisive yet. So
far since we're entering over internal already, charged
political arena,
but also,
the political arena in which competing ideologies
were in existence. This is 19 58 when
Us marines land in in Lebanon just to
orient listeners? Yes. Just to remind our listeners.
Yes. And and and now
a few years later, you know, like, literally
9 years later, we have 67.
So you have the student movement, by the
way, you're going down and all the universities
and especially American University and others, they're going
down to the streets chanting
for
for Fe and for other formations that were
active. You had branches of the movement of
our nationalist.
Chanting for the P p and the new
formations that were coming out of them. You
at the bath
that we're supporting this. And then you have
also
traditional leaders like comme blood that were,
promoting
modern ideologies. He he... Developed a party, quote,
the progressive socialist party.
Anywhere, he was embracing ideas of socialism and
so on even, which is you know, even
though it comes from a funeral over semi
funeral background, but, you, he was
promoting these ideas and and he was talking
about
an anti sec
program, you know, he was trying to develop
that.
So
somebody like him, you know, and again, we
we can't we don't have the time to
go into the motivations of each actor.
But the point is that you had
this popular
trend
that was pushing for day action. And this
is by the way not to mention the
strong
connection that had existed in in places like
the south where the peasant and the working
class
allied themselves with the ideal opacity integration. For
many reasons,
that include these direct connections, but also
contemporary possibilities that were open by these movies.
So ba seeing started to operate in that
space. Now,
They were operating
under actually a legitimate formula
that came about
as a result of Lebanese internal political crisis.
And that's... That was called the Cairo agreement,
which were
signed
in 19 69 because
up until that point between 6 7 and
and and 69.
You had the tension
between the Lebanese army, which was trying to
crack down on pas
gorilla action and
the the, of course, palestinian in movements.
And that produced then a constant set of
crises.
Eventually,
a working formula was arrived at
and negotiations.
That were sponsored by by Gem Den na.
This
essentially legitimate the idea of the Lebanese vietnamese
space
being used
and a very territory being used for developing
gorilla
activities.
Okay? So
many years later, of course, that produced also
sorts of resentment in Lebanon.
Okay,
especially you know, for the very beginning, the
right Lebanon, and the especially the ones
that sold themselves as allied to the kat
party, 1 of the largest
Mara parties.
But essentially, any any sphere in the any
of the movements operating in the Marina sphere
outside of the left,
did not like this arrangement.
Because they had their own
aspirations for Lebanon that were based on notions
of keeping the old formula of man suppress.
But also because ideological,
there was this promotion
of the idea that they had the separate
identity.
1, not an arab 1. So there was
no sense of connection. They were like, what
do we have to do with Palestine.
We're
And there are, which, of course, is absolutely
ridiculous because physicians are can night peoples that
operated
across this area and a coast from from
and from the very north to the very...
You know, it's a it's a long story.
But but he, as you know, all of
these ideas are manufactured. So
and invented them they serve political agendas in
the present.
So that's the the structural
situation that produces
so much
of the dynamics that we were to see
later on as a year's passed buy, and
that was to lead
to major
or to contribute at least in major ways
to the eruption of this a little war
level.
So we've we've covered Jordan
and Lebanon,
let's
get into Syria. What
was the relationship like between the P
and this ba is government of solid deed,
which took power in 66, and as we'll
get to
soon,
lost power in 19 70.
So in Syria, there was this interesting situation.
Of course,
for Fat, it was operating Syria already.
Okay? And,
for a while,
there was a fear that that its operations
would be disrupted.
After 67 and everything that took place.
But, of course, you know, there were forces
internal to the
to the political context in Syria and in
internal
that were pro
increased fed that action, increased commando action,
Although,
they did not prefer that it the the
the they get carried out
from Syrian third. The preference was
to
support it
in in the Lebanese front Enjoy in front
more. There were some...
Operations that took place from Syria, but that
was not the primary arena. However,
Syria opened
allowed for basis to continue to function,
And and in fact, there was an expansion
of
bases
that were functioning out of Syria,
there was,
1 major training center
that was initially established for Fe, another from
Rubin arab Nationalist.
Sorry. For the P p now, it was
renamed, of course. And then later on,
there were there was an expansion of of
all of that. A great deal of training
was going on in Syria.
So Syria became
1 of the main places where you would
go before you volunteer fight on the front,
and he would receive a train.
That has a long history. I mean, the
the original train... Fed for, for example,
everybody has gone through
this early phase and had been fighter, and
it will tell you that they either went
to the
Academy, in Algeria.
Or they trained at the Lab base in
Syria,
and they received their some some equipment and
and and then went on
to Jordan or to Lebanon to do their
the the their actual service in the revolution.
So that was 1 of the main functions.
There's also place where headquarters were located. It
was a place where a lot of the
logistics were taking place.
Notice in this period, by the way, movement
across borders between these states was fairly smooth.
A lot of that could move a much
more easily. And before 67, there was such
restriction
on movement. But now,
again, because of the war,
these armies are taken a big hit security
services taking big yet the prestige of the
Have gone really up.
So
there was now a greater ability to move
people to move weapons to move equipment
and this mobility contributed
to the ability to undertake
you know, operations.
The Israelis is we're constantly, of course,
bombing targets in these different places.
Including in Syria where they bought Tart
training center, which was a major training center
for for the... For for Fat, for example.
So so we should always bear in mind
that
this period
was not 1 in which the states and
the region could offer
this
kind of
access
for the policy revolution without facing repercussions.
In fact, is israeli doctrine throughout was was
what you would call, like, a raging ball
kind of approach, like just
destroy everything if if if if you get,
like, hit by by by anything. Yeah? So,
in any case, the Syrian
had certain regional pressures on them to continue
supporting,
but also they are their own internal
ideological alignments that geared
encourage them to continue to support. And and
it let's not forget at this stage, the
government there was
claiming that I say left wing government.
The the the civilians in the government had
served in the Fl, a lot of them.
I think we might have referred to this
earlier. These were doctors that's certainly the Fl.
They been in the a algeria struggle, you
know,
and and, you know, talking about No deal
Nat and and these people. You know,
brian Marquis and and these people, they were
very allied with the Para effort.
In many ways. Ideological, I'm talking. They they
were not opposed to it. But also,
you had, you know, Assyrian
military
that that so the the the importance
of this for morale and and for, you
know, other other reasons
relating to the this area front. And remember
here we had lost
territory colon heights at this stage. So it
felt there was a feeling
a popular feeling that again,
was very much profit that is pro
palestinian
mobilization.
I wanna shift briefly back into the 48
territories. The initial
territories
occupied by Zion forces in 19 48 that
becomes the state of Israel.
In the wake of the Na,
only about a hundred 50000 Palestinians
remained
inside the formal territory of the state of
Israel after 48.
And we've talked in a prior episode
about the Israeli communist party or Mah, a
party
with substantially jewish leadership, but a heavily air
base
and the role that it played in these
these first decades of the state of Israel
in in articulating Palestinian demands.
But
In 19 65,
a new mostly Palestinian
era led communist group called Ra
broke off
from the mostly Jewish led Mo,
adopting a clearly anti zion position and
also, I think more firmly aligning itself. With
the Soviet union.
And and just as an aside today, so
as not to confuse listeners who follow contemporary
Israeli politics.
The split off Rock is now called Mah
again because the old party Mah dissolved itself
into a different formation called Ro, which then
dissolved off into the zion, the left sinus
party Mara, but anyhow, returning to the 19
sixties.
There's Ro
splitting off from Mo
and
there's also
more revolutionary socialist
and anti zion currents like
the group Mo pen.
What did Palestinian and Jewish new left radical
look like inside?
The state of Israel. And to what extent
did it create any sort of possibility
for any sort of substantial meaningful consequential
Jewish Arab anti zion politics
within the 48 borders.
So
all of the events that you described, Daniel
have to be contextualize
with the reference to the
composition of see Israeli communist party, which was
originally referred to as, and then,
add witnessed,
Rag split that you're referred to in 19
65.
The what had happened after the Na
was that the party's base increasingly became, of
course advised,
and and and and its presence
amongst arab
Palestinian arab
was was grew exponentially
because, of course,
unlike the pre na period
when it was
operating
in a a political environment where there were
many movements, and where... Which was a small
ideological party
that I'd contend with much larger parties operating
in the past, arena and drawing on large
patricia families and networks and can kinship arrangements
and different
you know, different dynamics
altogether.
A communist party after 19 48
was
1 that was the only space
that was officially
allowed to operate that arabs could join.
Palestinian arabs could join.
Zion parties did not want passing
members in them and did not offer them
a space
that they could live with, at least.
You know, later on, of course, they started
competing of over their votes. But but to
be represented in the party,
and to have an agenda it serves you
was not something that was going to be
given to you by the labor party, for
example.
Okay.
I were not interested in in arab base.
They they were explicitly Jewish oriented parties. The
communists on the other hand,
opened their doors for that. And they had
reunited, of course, the
herb and the Pas in Herb in Jewish
members of the party.
After the Na had undergone a process of
re
reunification,
and you had major
political figures in the Arab society in 19
48 emerging out of this process.
So the leaders
politically of the Pal arab community
that remained
after the Na,
were predominantly commerce. You had people like the
great writer,
emile H, for example,
and I encourage our listeners to, purchase
Nobel.
Which is a great, wonderful. Novel about the
conditions of Pets frankfurt 40.
You had email too, you had
to yeah, the great poet and was mailed.
Now... And as all these figures they came
out of the
become party.
And, by the way, there's was an excellent
study of this
that was written by
my colleague and friend Mana Sa, who teaches
in Arizona. She wrote a book called brothers
apart, so I I recommend that.
In any case,
we... We're entering a new arena in the
mid sixties,
when you have elements that were zion within
the Communist movement
that are saying
that they have a problem with the Soviet
Union's
increasing
to the Israeli state. Remember,
there regionally, there there had been a reconciliation
of of the
geopolitics of of the region, increasingly leads soviet
Union
became more aligned with Egypt and other arab
countries and Israelis has become more aligned with
with the west.
So that produced a complicated
environment within within within the party.
And,
you know, you had people
that,
represented an anti... Or what was referred to
by many people as a as an anti
Soviet line.
Which was really a zion line. Was led
by
Moshe.
And
was
a you know, promoting ideas that a communist
design
orientation.
How are you gonna sell that to party.
There was the majority members were out the
air the past majority.
It was electoral basis that.
So
that produced a problem.
Now
what ended up happening is that essentially the
palestinian arab leader is plus
jewish leaders that were,
Pros Soviet and and and anti zion,
like mayor Builder, they decided to
you know, form their own thing as a
result of this. And and they they they
essentially created a new formation called Ra,
that that represented an anti zion line.
Now,
it's not clear.
To me that this anti zion line
would have had a chance with Jewish.
Descendants of cell or new cell.
And that was basically,
the audience that that some of the zion
communists were clearly targeting.
But it was it was obvious that that
the main program of the party
was going to draw on the energies of
of per arabs with within within the state.
And
eventually, what what ended up happening was, the
zion communist disappear from the map anyways. I
mean, the... It's not a sustainable,
ideology, and it does not have a popular
popular base. And that gets proven
in elections
immediately after the split happens,
they pretty much,
you know, lose
original Mack
representation
and there is really connected
at Windows significantly, while the Rocket 1 takes
over essentially. There there's... They they win many
more seats when, like, 3 seats and those
guys we only want. So and barely, you
know? So
resistance internally,
though, cannot be just understood
with reference to these dynamics.
You know, The communist party,
is a very important space for policy resistance
at this stage because it's still only
functioning
that could be
allowed by the state to function.
But you had also other formations.
Yeah. I think we've referred to them in
previous episodes. It was
had of the the that developed the land
movement that developed early on.
There was
other movements that developed, like,
bell.
And, of course,
I remember, Daniel,
all of these movements had to operate
initially
in in conditions that were totally horrific.
I mean,
up till 19 66,
Marshall Law was in operation across
palestinian companies were occupied
in 19 48.
And and this meant that
even for communists, let's say, in the communist
party, you have
Communist Jews enjoyed more privileges than Palestinian communists.
They were under Martial law,
they were in situations that were
absolutely
controlled.
You could not organize openly
in that as atmosphere without risking arrest,
humiliation, you know, enterprises against your family.
And I'm I'm I'm I'm emphasizing this because
many in many occasions and in many circumstances,
people forget
there's deep struggles that were carried out by
Pas 19 48.
Another form of struggle in Pas that was
raised by them by the way,
was to support the Palestinian
revolution,
that we have been consistent referring to across
this episode because it needed logistics needed people
to know the situation inside.
And and
throughout the period of passing senior armed struggle.
There were always people from 19 and 48
areas that were joining it because they they
sold themselves as part of the Palestinian people
even though there was a this attempt
to split them apart from that people and
isolate them.
A good story about this For example, Theresa
alice. She was
somebody who left Hi walked on foot with
their friend.
You know, she just graduated from my school
She was like, I wanna join they for
that in this period.
Know, when I asked her once I interviewed
there before she passed away and she's now
passed away.
You know, what were the influences that influence
you, what, you know, it's she's like, well,
I grew up in a house where used
to listen to Nasa speeches, which is, of
course, a illegal.
But also,
when the 67
war happened, and I saw what was going
on, I I wanted to respond to that.
You know, and I I wanted to fight
against this
state that was
or me.
Now,
That's on the Palestinian.
Back to the communist dramas in the and
it's israeli estate. Okay?
So,
you have another split that you kind of
hinted at,
which is a split between,
Mack,
and
folks said that had
issues with a just complete support for Soviet
policy.
Without, like,
any critical assessment.
And this coincided also with what they saw
as
the more principal stands against Diet. So, you
know, we will refer to 1 side of
the party that that that considered that the
party was too anti zion.
Now we're looking at another side of the
party that was saying,
it's not anti zion enough.
In particular, these is include people like Moshe
Makeover.
And, of course,
ak or these people
so themselves as as as more critical.
They could be seen as as as more
impacted
by some
new
left ideas.
They even had different
affiliation
with the with
centimeters figures as well that that that that
saw themselves as being part of this new
wave, you know, people like
Nicola, others like that.
But you had the development of
new debates in the 19 sixties.
That would have been difficult to have
in the zion state in the 19 fifties.
You know, and there there was this
early fe after the Na of Zion fe
that narrowed down space. And that's why
the the communist is party for all its
else in that moment. And, you know, some
of its sales are now are referred to
by nationalist amongst palestinian citizens Israel circles. You
know, because later on, there was, of course
an additional
split that happens amongst the communist party
that produces a new party in the air
scene, and on in 96, you have the,
Az mi and a group of people from
the Israeli economies. Friday they start
the ta z, the gathering.
You know, they sometimes say, well, the communist
party made us ways is israeli flags during
independence day in the fifties years, and they
did a... They they they they criticize it
for not offering...
For not according. Passing is a space for
expression of national sentiment.
And that's true,
but, of course, the context of the fifties
was so oppressive.
By the sixties,
we can have conversations around these questions that
expand a bit more.
And
there was a possibility for re evaluations of
a bunch of issues, including the relationship with
the Soviet Union,
their relationship with zion
and and so on and so forth.
In September 19 70,
the P became engulfed in a giant armed
conflict with king hussein of Jordan. It it
was an event
infamous known as black September
when Jordan iranian forces surrounded and launched major
attacks on P forces across the country.
And
there's a lot to unpack here, and we
have to do so rather ex because we
have a ton of ground to cover.
First,
the basics, what what led the Jordan state
to attack P forces? And
and then what did that conflict reveal
about these larger contradictory dynamics that had emerged
in these complex fraught relationships between the P
in frontline states like Jordan from which the
P o operated. And then
second, what world countries like Iraq and Syria,
both of which
At least claimed to back the Fe,
what role did they play in black September
because Serious actions as we'll get into soon.
They would have a major impact on Syrian
domestic politics. It's really a key event
in terms of understanding how Assad came to
power there, but we'll get to that in
a few moments.
Alright. So
it's good to think about this in terms
of the actual existing his geography, which starts
in my view from the wrong premise.
They start by accepting actually, the dominant version
offered by,
the,
existing
Arab states.
Who
assert that the problem
had to do with state sovereignty.
And, of course, from a state perspective,
that's totally refund. You know, if you start
from the premise, that the, foremost value
and ultimate principle and and in this world
is states sovereignty.
Then
you will see the Palestinian
revolution
as engaging in something illegitimate.
Now, at the same time, the existing is
geography contradicts itself.
Because their standard of what is right and
wong is the is estate sovereignty.
But then
they apply
this set of
tricks
when it comes to analyzing
events,
where they focus on trans transactions on the
part of
their evolution, and particularly enjoyed them. This is
this is a big deal. It becomes like,
well, what are the mistakes
that led to a clash between the state
and and the revolution.
Unfortunately,
due to the defeat that happened jordan and
all the defeats that happened to the
palestinian revolution afterwards,
their
internal
policy discussions
go down that route as well.
They, you know, they start from this
idea that there were trans,
mistakes.
And in a way, that assumes that
the situation could have been structurally
a significantly different had there not been these
mistakes.
I think that's an overs
simplification of reality. I think that we we
should,
think of this as
a core structural
contradiction.
Between the logic of the state and the
logic of the monarchy.
Okay. And and and the logic of revolution.
They're incompatible.
Okay. Their revolutionary forces
wanted to establish Jordan.
And in this case, by the way, they
were backed by a vest
swath of of people of popular
movements and individuals, across the country
that were keen
to initiate armed struggle against the,
Israeli central colonial state.
So
Their their logic
was to establish Jordan as a base for
revolution.
That could not, at any moment be compatible
structurally.
With the logic of the regime. Now, the
regime, however,
had
2 directions within it.
1 was playing a waiting game.
And was willing to strike some temporary deals
with their evolutionary forces.
And the other wanted to strike quickly
and to nip this
process in the in the butt.
So
and in a way, the events
that took place jordan the between,
the defeat of 19 67
and black September
you know, showed
elements of that contradiction.
But that was not a struggle over the
principle,
which is that there there should not be
independent
revolutionary action ema from that country. That any
action
it should be actually controlled by the state.
And preferably,
as far as the state is concerned and
monarch is concerned, there should be no action.
Okay. Now the monarchy at the same time
could not declare that.
And the state could not declare that.
Because that would have resulted in
a serious
popular
uprising potential.
So this is
the the structural kind of
dimension that we need to focus on.
Now,
you had elements within the Drilling state. However,
that were not connected to the monarchy,
that were keen on supporting
F work,
and initiating your revolutionary at work. These included
patriotic officers
in the Jordan army,
and some very senior ones at that.
I'm sure had detailed ji, for example, is
a good example... Is a good example of
that.
He is the leader of the forces
that
initiated the Jordan artillery attack on on the
Israeli invading Israeli army during the battle of
Kara.
And he later becomes
the
the head of the Jordan army as a
whole.
He's someone that considered
that there should be a very strong relationship
between the army and the.
And that the army should back that action
and and revolutionary.
However, there were others in the drilling regime
that that that were
opposed to that.
And
amongst
the leading voices in that tradition
is, of course, the king's uncle,
Sheriff Na,
who
was advocating complete destruction
of the of the Fide.
Within E circles, also there were divisions. And
that did not help
the situation in in Jordan.
You you
could not have a a formula
that was unified,
even under the the P o.
And that's because the 2
movements,
that came out of the movement of arab
nationalist. The 2 major organizations that came out
of it.
Had a different perspective
on what to do with the Jordan regime,
then
they're competing
historic rival, which was.
Fat tests overall, approach to air regimes
was
that there should be passing none interference with
them
as far as possible.
So they did not have a theory of
taking over this state.
In any arab country. That was not their
position. Their position however was that our countries
should
allow for
seeing action
against the israeli
state.
For the P p and D p,
the
outlook was different.
As we know from our previous discussions of
the movement or our nationalist,
their view was that there needed to be
a revolution in the surrounding arab states, an
overthrow of reactionary arab regimes.
So as to be able to carry out
a popular liberation war.
And
and this was definitely the position that
was advocated by the D in relation to
Jordan. They were calling for the overt overthrow
monarchy.
And Knife How who comes from Jordan by
the way.
Was was very strongly calling for that. He
was, of course, head of the Democratic popular
front that we spoke about.
And his rival within the move awareness of
nationalist or H, who was was, of course,
a tradition leader.
And who became the head of the
P team.
He had to kind of also go along
with that position. Now, initially, he was hesitant
about
advocating for that openly, although most of his
caters would have believed in that.
But by May day 19 70,
he advocates for that in openly in a
in a in a speech during May day.
Which, of course, in in all over the
world except the Us celebrated and as Labor
day. So in in his address to the
canadian Pas and an air workers he called
for overthrow of the monarchy. So
this
situation meant that
You have 2 directions within the palestinian in
revolution itself,
in relation to the regime and also 2
directions within the regime in relation to their
revolution. Structurally, though, there was a contradiction between
revolution and the state.
And that that contradiction
was seen over and over again.
There were clashes between the popular front, for
example and
elements of the
Jordan army
in
19 68 as early as that.
There were
clashes that could have taken place even between
T forces and and the army in earlier
periods.
There were
incidents
were that
the F insists were orchestrated by the Mo
and the state. For example, there was a
group under somebody called Tara,
which Had Sketchy aims and seemed to be
attacking
Jordan germanium military targets.
And they they... Most that is believed that
it was
you know,
orchestrated by the
Intelligence services.
For the le Intelligence services, by the way,
the the
they included even Palestinian elements.
So so 1 of their leading strategist in
relation to the Fed groups, was a was
a man who
was... It came from na.
He,
essentially
advocated
a position that that called for,
you know, finding a formula,
that that that end with infiltrate. These is
movements.
So he encouraged splits and infiltration because he
knew a lot about them. So
this meant that you had a series of
clashes.
Now,
what you also had was a situation,
and this is where the auto critique of
of the past movements is reasonable. You did
have also a situation where a lot of
these parties and movements were unable to fully
control
the overall direction of events. And because this
was a situation where the state as we
and where thousands and thousands of people suddenly
joined their revolution.
They did not go
through the normal track.
Of training and ideological
preparation and
induction.
And that meant
and that also, some of them were not
disciplined.
So if you have, like, a young teenage
person,
being given a gun, they could do stupid
stuff with it. And there are many stories
that came out of door in their period.
All people arresting
police officers
unnecessarily
they have resentment towards them from previous years,
of course, they have resentment towards all symbols
of the state,
but they were not strategic
in terms of
distinguishing between the state and and the police
officers and the soldiers,
which led them to growing resentment.
And this is an important theme in palestinian
and analysis of black September and also
Patriotic analysis of of black September because They're
posing the question of how was the monarchy
able to generate popular support
for the crackdown on their evolution. At a
time when just a couple of years earlier,
there was massive support for their revolution. So
incidents like that created a sense of
alien elimination that could be used by the
regime,
and some of them again, were manufactured, other
took place because of, lack of discipline
a quick expansion
and without without without enough vetting. Now the
outcome was
by 19 70.
You have
the king preparing
for a big crackdown.
And there is
essentially, an American
shipment of weapons
that that that he receives.
He he carries out a big conference
for during the tribal dealerships
from the East bank
to
basically call for loyalty to the King and
mobilization
against
this phenomenon and and here, he uses
basically
Jordan local nationalism.
To achieve his mobilization aims. So
traditionally, the regime Jordan
tried to promote its own conservative version of
arab nationalism,
under monarch article as you might better.
But now it needed to re
brand itself.
As a representative of the local mundane identity.
And, of course, this is a mixed spike,
ethnically, it's like,
at least, split half an half if not,
majority Palestinian,
but you have, you know, of course, you're
the tribes and and families that are rooted
in the country and the Regime could rely
on them.
In advantage as they they constitute
the the majority of the senior ranks in
the army.
And and also of the rank rank file.
So... And with enough purging, you could create
a military that that could,
crack down on the on the on their
evolution with that.
So,
this is structurally
the situation that happens. There's a d mobilization
going on.
There's an arming.
And then
they use the excuse of plain hijacking. And
so the
strategies that were deployed by the P to
say, okay. Sovereignty is lost in this place.
There is no for the state. There's no
respect for the army. It's this disorder and
chaos.
Okay? We have to correct down. So that's
the the popular logic that is promoted by
the resume at this stage,
and it carries out a big crackdown
on
the entire for that e presence.
In September and 19 70. And then
what does the actual
crackdown
look like in what role
do other
arab states, particularly those that ostensibly are strong
supporters of the Fed
play,
particularly
Syria.
So there's 2 arab states
that have an immediate military bearing on the
situation in Jordan in this period, which are
Iraq and Syria. Iraq has a military contingent
in Jordan.
And in many ways, the king was delaying
action against the the because since 19 67,
that Iraqi troop deployment was there to help
Jordan, of course,
not be invaded by the Israeli forces
that had taken over the West bank and
could potentially threaten it in the rest of
the country. But the worry was that that,
you know, the detachment that that that,
rocket deployment could be used to support the
a da.
And
in here,
you had the
special talks between the king and the and
the Iraqi army
that that helped to ensure that the person
in charge in Jordan
would not intervene in favor of the of
the.
Now that was a mis escalation on the
part of the for the Ian as well,
including the p dealership thought
that that the Brazilian
state will have to really
consider its options because of the presence of
this Iraqi unit, it might not crack down.
And this is an Iraqi unit that is
ostensibly
following orders of the now
regime in in Baghdad.
Yes.
Although it's it's a complicated
story. I mean, the the the head of
the detachment, of course, is related to
saddam.
You know, So you have,
you know, a relative of saddam didn't it.
But during black September, you have a situation
where there are suspicions that it might have
been a dire deal with with with King
jose.
So so these are
you know, it's a complicated
discussion, whether it was authorized by the leadership
in bangladesh dad or not,
But, yeah, most likely,
you know, they would have had knowledge of
it, but we we can't And and, of
course,
the the the situation in the case of
the Syrian
was much more serious.
Because in Syria,
you had
a government
that claimed to be very leftist
claimed to be very today
and
that
that was
you know, committed to promoting revolution.
At least on the surface.
When the attacks and is happened in 19
70,
they were pressuring
for an entry to Jordan and they did.
But
the the
the Syrian troops,
were not giving air cover
by,
a member of the Syrian leadership
that control the Air force, which is, of
course, half as an us.
Now, this was connected to,
a variety of things,
half as considered that these were,
adventurous.
But he also, of course, had to deal
with,
warnings
from the israelis
and the Americans about Syrian intervention.
And there was fear that, you know, had
if if there was a very strong Syrian
intervention in support of overthrow the State in
Jordan and Israelis with bomb damascus. It would
cause
serious problems.
So that was part of the, you know,
drama that we're discussing here. And so essentially,
Syrian tanks rolled into the country, but didn't
do anything.
Well, Syrian texts rolled into the country, they
did quite a bit. They took over the
north of the country,
you know, in the region around Ed bit,
the main city, in the north.
Was taken over. It was an announced as
a liberated zoom. There was even an
administration set there. And the that groups you
know,
to control for a while.
But
the the... Without air cover, the the or
the inventory forces were able to to push
it back eventually.
And in the meantime, half as an asset
orchestrate a coup,
that he calls
the corrective move.
And he
overthrow
the,
government
led by Sal
in this in this period. This is in
November
19 70,
that
Assad ou
fellow military bath, sal deed and a coup.
How did this split between Ja and Assad,
who who together, listeners will recall
Together had ousted the civilian or traditional,
Syrian boss leadership in a 19 66 coup
how did this new split amongst the military
come about and how did that split between
Jet and Assad
fit into these
longer
intern fights among bath
between various ideological factions,
military versus civilian factions and also critically
between the Iraqi and and Syrian factions that
we spent so much of the Series discussing,
and then And then lastly,
what role did Syria action assad decision not
to provide air cover
to to Syrian forces in Jordan during Black
September. What role
did that play in being the sort of
proxima
spark for the coup?
So
there's 2 ways of viewing this,
question of the contradiction within the Syrian
former syrian comrades rates in this bat bath
leadership post the 19 66 coup.
1 is to think of it in ideological
terms. And of course,
there is an ideological facade to all of
this provided by As assad and its opponents.
And the other is to think of it
in,
in terms of personal quest for power.
In in in my estimation, There is an
ideological
dimension, but it's it's not the strongest.
Their actual
contest station over power
was was the dominant theme? Yes, As I
said,
was advocating
what he would have called a more realist
approach
where Soya
enters the state system and enters the state
system game
without having these grand
ideas about exporting
revolution or anything of that sort.
And he... Yes, on the internal economic front,
he did want a more mixed model
of socialism where there would be elements of
socialism but mixed with encouraging private enterprise.
So
there are ideological differences.
But there are also
personal quest for power connected to this and
and really
it was clear that how an asset was
very shrewd
and and very effective,
from the very beginning.
To the very end of his life. I
mean, he was definitely
a very effective political player
he was ruthless,
but,
he was also calculating.
And,
every movie he did was based on
calculations that related to him achieving greater and
greater power. That's clear for any serious observer.
No. You have supporters and fans of his
that love their ruthless
or that try to hide it.
And those that try to hide it. They
focus on the shortness.
But I would I would definitely tell you
a couple of things. 1
And somebody like him is not a theorist.
He's not particularly well wet.
He's not an intellectual,
but he's smart.
And he's is is is a pragmatic
actor
in a very complex arena.
And he deals with that arena
using whatever tools he has,
and he has no limits when it comes
to using those tools. So if he needs
to kill people, he will,
he wouldn't do it necessarily just out of,
you know, for for for for fun or
out of, you know, randomness,
but but he he will do it, and
he's done it. Multiple occasions. If he needs
to crack down you well, and he created
definitely a situation where the security state
reached unprecedented levels in in Syria. So when
he did his corrective move, the way he
dealt with his former comrades is very telling.
You know, they're all put into, like,
tiny cells, their whole torture, their whole,
you know, I mean, what difference would it
have made if if you put them give
them slightly better treatment, for example. You know,
like,
why not why not give somebody a sweet
prison if he was your body for, like,
25 years or something like, you know what
I mean? Like
and if you
subjected to the together. So
I hate to go go too much into
the psychology of it, but there is a
bit of psychology involved here. My humble opinion,
my personal opinion,
you know, these our people who...
But, you know,
I wouldn't make it just
restricted analysis to era politics. I think there's...
Actually, there's empirical research that politics.
Attracts
psycho in a disproportionate away. I think in
psychology. I I have a friend who with
a psychologist she talks about that.
So there are elements
that we can see there
that that took place during this corrected move.
Now,
again, the ideological facade is, you know, we're
saving the country from these adventurous or taking
it down an unknown path.
Syria does not have the power to stand
against the Americans Israelis the and everybody else
in or the regional allies.
And needs to just a reality and it
needs stability.
Stability becomes after assets, number 1 motto in
in throughout this career,
He says, look, We've had too much political
change.
What I'm gonna do now is is allow
the state to be stable.
Which of course, wins him
a section of,
the old Syrian capital.
A good fun, an economic avenue.
Under this regime. It's not ideal for them,
but stability and a bit of an opening
for
the private sector
is is is an advantage.
Assad taking power in Syria in 19 70
combined with Saddam and Bak
taking power in Iraq in 68.
It really just completes the
the moral and political bankruptcy of of the
bath, a party
that we really started this the series
discussing in many ways, a party founded
to be something quite different.
Why did ba
take off down this road of
brutal in fighting between bop
of various
ideological,
factions between military and civilian factions and also
critically
between
Iraqi and syrian factions, a path that ultimately
brought ba
to these
depressing,
violently
oppressive
authoritarian endpoints in both iraq and Syria.
Yeah. So,
I mean, Daniel, this is a question that
has haunted bath
for many years, and,
But as,
of course,
any serious assessment will have to look at
the fact that the the party
began to have a military wing and a
and a civilian
wing and that becomes difficult. In both Iraq
and Syria, this develops.
The party also
had a difficult experience with the United arab
Republic. It could not find the formula
that that, allowed for an equilibrium with with
Nasa.
It could not find the formula for having
equilibrium with a communists earlier
and and and with k.
And,
you can't just fault them for that. Of
course, other players had roll with it. But,
definitely,
there were,
different possible
courses of action that might have spurred the
bath a lot of a lot of disastrous
results
that taking place. But the the leadership of
the bath basically
got increasingly marginalized
and increasingly lost the plot
as the party expanded
and as new elements
from more military as opposed to Civilian backgrounds
started entering the party.
At the end of the day,
the party became dominated
by figures that were not
ideological
that did not belong to
the,
intellectual
classes.
And I'm not saying that there's... That they're
not intelligent or it's a like that, but
that that means that
the question of political commitment
is is is different here. They're grounding in
the in the main principles and values
that top party was founded on what's was
quite was quite different.
So, you know, this is a party that
started out as having a base mainly
amongst,
young teachers
That was its its main character.
And now
it continues to have the this kind of,
element
but they're they're not the ones making the
decisions.
You know, it becomes increasingly state party,
and a state party that is dominated
by,
a securities slash military way.
And it will use the slogan.
You might even deploy some of the ideas
might even adopt some of the policies, You
know, both,
under of them and under said, there were
elements of socialism
introduced and we should not dismiss that. There
were serious
experiments in
introducing
more egalitarian
economic systems in these countries and developing the
countryside and national
important
natural resources.
And and that... That's all due to the
bath
tradition that these figures belong to.
But
that was
also a accompanied
by a quest for power,
and by a quest for for central
power.
Another...
Ideological, another variant that should be looked at,
and this happens to not just the bat,
but other
political parties.
The Soviet model
gets increasingly adopted,
and I'm talking here structurally.
All our political parties
on the left or somehow
neither
adopting that model or trying to break away
from it somehow.
Maybe that's
a problem across the left.
So under the banner of the aquatic central,
a lot of
things that have nothing to do with democracy
or central take place. And that that becomes
part of the phenomena. It gives ideological
justification.
For an the individual,
quest for power.
You know, So it's it's a mixed legacy.
And, by the way, much of what I
do has to do with also saying,
we can't just purely verify
what took place.
We have to look at at it holistically.
The the the biggest problem that that that
we're left with in the 19 seventies and
eighties aps under these regimes as the denial
of pillar political liberty.
And and that's a significant problem because it
it it it basically facilitates the markets.
The second problem is we end up in,
geopolitical
clashes
within a revolutionary camp that could have been
more united.
The the interference in the past revolution, and
we'll talk about that in the second,
produced negative results for the palestinian blues,
especially by half,
less so by of dumb as well.
But then you also have
clashes between Syria and Iraq
that come about that really
affect the the the the region in very
negative ways. You you have, like, all sorts
of
arenas
in which, you know, the due geopolitics could
have could have been improved on that. But
then you have other aspects that have to
be looked at more favorably.
You had to focus on the sovereignty
of the state in relation to Empire.
And that's not an insignificant theme, both
saddam and hu.
We're trying hard to achieve that and to
protect that.
You know, for all their ill.
There was also,
as I mentioned, some social justice elements
that were included, never in a radical fashion.
But, you know,
definitely,
there's some source of democratic
institutions, some welfare state institutions that got created,
you know, almost free medicine, almost free education,
some cases entirely free. You know, support for
farmers,
some cooperative
programs,
you know, and And all of these
are quite important.
This is Ola Family O Ty, and you're
listening to the dig.
You can support the podcast to patreon dot
com.
This episode like every episode of the dig
is produced in partnership with jack Magazine.
Jacob is an incredible publication. You've probably seen
a lot of what they've published online, but
they also have a beautiful prints magazine.
It comes out quarterly.
And as well over a hundred pages packed
with illustrations infographics in some of the best
graphic design in the country, Dig listeners can
join 50000 jacob subscribers developing socialist political thought
and debate for just 15 dollars a year,
15 dollars gets you an entire year of
jacob in print. And access to the Magazines
entire back catalog.
If you've never subscribed a Jacob before, you
can access this deal by going to bit
dot lee slash dig jack,
all lowercase.
That's bit dot lee slash dig jack.
Gem del No died in September 19 70
right in the midst of black September.
This
marked the demise of the most pivotal figure
in this entire series. An absolutely
unparalleled icon of arab nationalism,
anti imperial
and arab socialism.
On Sad, who we will discuss in
more detail later on, he took over as
president. But
before we get to sit up
and the rest of this history
briefly.
What was the immediate impact of
No death, the death
of the most towering figure in twentieth century
arab history, really,
among the most legendary figures of this higher
era, third world as
and revolutionary d
globally.
A sense of how important Nasa
is
can be, gained from
the va
with which is approached by both,
by his opponents as well as the admiration
that is,
you know, given to him by his his
supporters to this very day across the region.
And I think, again, like this tells you
something about the character and and and its
way.
You know, I've I've I've checked the British
record as on on on this era as
good as anybody, and I'm I'm talking about,
you know, recently d dissatisfied documents that kind
of thing. And I've also had my first
share of,
looking at at American records, and it's clear
that Nas was considered by the existing empires
as the only... Or as the main serious
threat. To their project. But also as somebody
that they needed to grapple with. So so
from their perspective of
somebody who had a regional vision. Definitely,
Nasa was the leader with the most important
regional vision and and and in the history
that we've been we've been talking about. You
know,
you have some big figures operating in this
period. Saudi Arabia is King Face song is
very important.
Became class and Is very important. But nobody
comes close to Nasa in terms of this
influence is
and and and his overall significance for this
history as you've indicated.
This does not mean that that everything is
done is as is perfect
or that everything is done is is bad.
And as as his supporters and the director
is both would would like a
respectively,
say.
On a popular novel,
it was clear
that his death
was
a huge shock.
And and his death was actually connected to
black September.
You know, Nas dies as he's trying to
broker
a ceasefire.
And as he's trying to broker a deal
that would allow
for
an end to the fighting between the Jo
Monarchy and Policy in revolution.
It's clear that he might have had even
some guilt because he did not intervene to
stop
black September from happening.
You know? And this is a big debate
that that that that exists mobile palestinian and
circles as well as enjoy circles and elsewhere.
Could not have stopped at the place.
Did he give King green light.
You know, his relationship with Fed was very
tense in that moment because he had accepted
the Rogers plan, American plan. Which was talking
about
a 2 state solution and which was stock
exploring with Arab states idea of negotiations
along to 4 2.
Among the Un resolution 242.
And, of course, that leads to major demonstrations
against them and mad.
And these are led by
the different palestinian of blue infections, including the
movement of arab Nationalists, which were his former
allies.
So the P p,
and the Pdf p figures,
all of them, whether it's H or harassment
they're all rejecting it in the
talking in almost insulting terms
in 1 of the demos, even some people
put face of a donkey on nasa's
picture. There's there's some stuff that was seen
as crossing many lines.
And in Pas in Auto critiques sets
actually focused on because
that's the 1 figure that might have been
on a regional level able to stop complete
crackdown. And it's 1 of the reasons why
Ky also delayed. So
in any case,
So you have this clash with him, but
he does feel guilty.
You know, we know that he feels very
guilty about
not intervening to to to to stop the
situation.
He tries to broker again an agreement, and
he he He he helps create the conditions
for smuggling out of heart out of our
man.
And, you know, he brokers an agreement in
Cairo, but he stressed him out.
And he wasn't sleeping throughout that time. He
was very ill. He was
not doing well. Some people have theories that
he was poisoned. I don't actually believe that
it's is
is former Soviet doctor has appeared in multiple
interviews where he said, look, he's suffering from
a hard condition for a long time, and
I kept to telling him stop working. Was
a alcoholic. You you need to take some
time off and you need less stress. Otherwise
we're gonna kill yourself. So
that's that's an important.
Issued to emphasize though that that Na death
is connected to the policy and cause with
which he was connected for all his life.
Secondly,
when he dies,
something remarkable happens in the streets of our
man,
which was a wounded city,
that had just gone through this
horrible civic conflict between people who are very
close to each other. And by the way,
1 of the myths of black September is
that it was Jordan versus Palestinians.
Actually, there were a lot of jordan and
for that infections
and there were a lot of palestinians in
the Jordan army.
And every family has
people on both sides,
including mine, including others
that this is part of the mythology that
then gets created around it.
But when Nasa dies,
black flags are raised by
everybody.
When the fighting stops.
This is actually how the fighting stops in
our man. A minute,
the radio stations
start putting on the put on, that's a
signal that somebody biggest has died. This is
what happens and by the way, the the
the Middle East Like, when somebody big guys,
somebody the radio broadcast stops, You have Aggressive,
that means that it's a signal,
and
the the as death is announced.
Everybody tries to scramble to find a black
piece of cloth. They raise it.
All of man turns into
a city
raising black flags.
And
for that has dropped their guns,
the arm drops its gone. It's a chilling
moment. And when you interview people that live
through it
from both sides actually,
they all recall it very vividly.
Everybody knew that something ominous is gonna happen
to the region. They were used to this
leadership,
whether they liked it or not whether they
attacked it or not whether Critique,
they knew that overall, it had created a
gigantic shift
away from imperial control for the first time
in the region.
And that it was trying to chart an
independent path,
and a path that would allow for some
unity and social change.
Now,
from a, of course, radical left this critique
that change was never
full
and it was not... Some would say it
was even close to when it should be,
but
there was no doubt that this was the
most serious challenge to the regional order in
the post war period.
For the policy cause is
death is a disaster
because he's succeeded by
an opportunistic figure.
Who was famous for changing colors all the
time, a total chameleon
respected widely in the west because he's a
Western agent,
but hated actually widely in our region.
And Egypt, he has a mixed
legacy of popular support in andrew because multiple
regimes keep on recycling.
Is image is 1 of somebody who who's
opened new opportunities for aging, but we can
talk about that in a sec. And what
Said that, Of course, is the person we're
talking about.
In 19 71 in the wake of black
September, the P
established its new headquarters in beirut.
How did the P o respond to the
events of black September and Jordan. What
what sort of blow was it
to lose
its base there?
And then
how did they decide to move forward
in Lebanon?
So
in the case of,
discussion within the P,
The problem with the loss of Jordan is
that you lost several hundred kilometers of of
of borders
with the Israeli settle colonial stay.
And you've also lost
something that people referred to as as,
the
starch tank of the revolution in a way.
It's it's
or that's the wrong word word maybe the
spring of their evolution. Like something like, like,
you know, it's like,
it's where you have the largest Palestinian numerical
presence anywhere outside of Palestine.
It's a huge presence.
I mean,
even if if you look at the world's
map today, a man would count as the
world's largest Palestinian city. Bigger than jerusalem them
bigger than nab less bigger than have grown,
bigger
it's it's in purely
statistical terms.
It's a huge number of Palestinians in this
country. So they constitute at least have the
population if not,
by some estimates much higher than that. So
that's
something
significant. You also lost
a population that is bank. Damian who are
very committed.
To their revolution. So also you had big
section that would have fought with you from
there. And
and and and this had like disastrous for
strep repercussions.
So the only area that was left where
there could be. Any form of independent pal
of revolutionary action or margin for independent pas
action was lebanon on now.
There,
the of Revolution had to undergo
a series of re.
Of what took place in Jordan,
and how it could do things better now
that it moved to 11. 1 of the
main themes
that were discussed in Jordan
or in relation to the to the way
of working in Jordan. Was that
in Jordan the
pass the Jordan national movement got absorbed into
the palestinian of revolutionary structures.
And that became like
an the area for soft critique and for
Auto critique because,
they were saying that allowed or made it
easier for the regime to use
the logic of local nationalism to crack down
on their evolution.
You know, if you say this is about
Palestinians and it's what do we have to
do with them,
And and, you know, if you try to
create,
you know, for big feeling around that,
while encouraging the logic of the state sovereignty,
that's made easier. If you don't have a
clear
set of organizations that operate under Jordan damien
banner,
And, of course, he's existed in the 19
fifties
very strongly. We talked about them before.
But by the time we enter the period
of 6 7 to 70 most of their
caters that entry passing
organizations or established off shields that were operating
in the past year of blue revolutionary.
Like,
good example would be
the bath. Look at the bath. They they
established a sai
the leader of Sai is actually... The guy
who establishes it. It's an East Banker Ruth
damien,
very highly respected by everyone Ba Za,
He ends up by the way, as assessed
Jail for as as a result of the
corrective move is is a member of the
national leadership of the bat.
But he's operating under Sai, which is a
palestinian information that is that gay membership in
the P.
There is a cons member of the P
o. This phenomena
applies to the air nationalist applies to the
deficit. It applies even to sections of the
communists because it's a split in the communist
party actually. Enjoy the 1. So
this
is an issue that in Lebanon, they're careful
not to do. They start operating
incorporation
with
what was called,
Lebanese National Mo.
Yeah. And in Lebanon,
besides creating
the
alliance with existing popular forces there, which was,
of course, very important. For them given
what had transpired earlier jordan,
and deciding not to fold them into the
P o.
Which could have been a of course of
action, of course, a potential 1.
There was
another set of decisions where taken place
relating to
developing different aspects of the Palestinian
revolution
that were social aspects.
And and really, this is something that
is very important to consider,
when we look at the history past evolution.
Most people
look at it from a military perspective
and from a diplomatic perspective.
But it's so important to
focus also on the social
dynamics,
the
popular
mobilization dynamics.
The fact that you had a growth in
the women's union, a major growth, a restructuring
of it actually.
So,
after Jordan, by the way, when when the
exit
to beirut ruth, happens,
you have
major,
changes where different branches of the union start
you know, operating,
there's
structure where the the national
structure exists, but also local structures are operating,
You have
much bigger budgets invested in that,
more people are allocated walls organizing roles same
for the workers union.
Same for gaps, the general union of past
students. It's operating on a huge
level.
All the
training camps expand when it comes to,
the ideological
dimensions, so you have,
now cater schools established
both for a fat and for the P
p. At the medical side is expanded.
And and some
scholars refer to it as a phenomena of
state building,
is it side in particular use from that
prism. I actually disagree with that. I think
what was happening was a deepening
of,
revolutionary building.
And you cannot have revolutionary mobilization.
Without having an intimate
relationship,
with the masses out of which their evolution
is gonna come. That was the kind of
realization. That most pal
organizations
we're arriving at, and they've really learned that
from the experience of of of Jordan. That
you needed to build from the bottom up,
you needed to expand the social work and
and really work the organizations in society.
So
this coincided with an event that took place
in Lebanon under the banner of, you, or
the title of the,
deli liberation of the camps.
In 19 69, I had this remarkable process
taking place across the past senior refugee camps
at Lebanon,
where,
essentially, the P o
launched an armed
rebellion against the presence of the Lebanese army
inside the palestinian caps.
And the camps now had their own
internal self governance.
So
the Lebanese army could not.
Enter them. And, of course, Enemies Army used
to harass people there. They to arbitrarily. Arrest
people,
these camps were under the harsh control of
the Z bureau,
which used to wreak havoc in them. People
were not allowed to build. People were not
allowed to to talk
any congregation more than 2 people would be
counted as illegal. There were so many restrictions
on people's lives.
And that ended.
With with this operation, which included, by the
way, even,
enable landing
in
in some of the camps There were, you
know, there were innovative moves that led to
the liberation of of of their caps. And
and
and we end up with
you know, a situation where,
first, the P has a strong power base
in these camps, which are spread across the
country.
But secondly,
It's also
establishing,
strong grounding
amongst communities
that
had been marginalized by Lebanon sec formula,
And in particular, I'd been marginalized by the
French effort to create
mara dominance in Lebanon.
Now, of course,
there were different degrees of allegiance to the
past,
revolution or connection to it but you saw
that it had some natural allies,
in the sense that,
for example,
the leadership of shi communities tended to be
very sympathetic to it, but more importantly, that
the people themselves partly because most Shi populations
were in the south, in the of lebanon
that borders is Palestine and that had very
intimate connections with it. A lot of them
had worked in Palestine before 48. A lot
of them had inter married with Palestinians.
So there was that social dimension that was
very strong there.
But then you also had
so communities at Allied pas is sometimes for
religious reasons that that they belong to the
same sack that
they they saw Palestinians scenes as a natural
ally in in improving their own sex position.
But others for progressive reasons. Because they belong
to more radical movements
and so on.
You had
you know, within Christian communities, it was more
likely that you would get
less hostility from the orthodox church, for example,
and other
communities that that had strong bases in Palestinian
and society as well. Of course the rules
leadership was aligned with the revolution and some
people give it an ideological
interpretation, you know, that out of lot. Wanted
to see 11 on free of sec and
so their evolution as a major ally in
that. Others give it, you know, more real
interpretation saying that he was trying to operate
in
arena so Pas evolution is helping him with
the balance of power and lebanon. Regardless of
the reason, however,
you have
all of these communities operating with with the
past years.
And then you have an anti secondary
tradition, and we've referred to it earlier,
all of the major left wing parties
want to
support their evolution and and the palestinians.
So B
starts working with them.
And then so it's it's creating...
First of all, social
mobilization amongst its own ranks, but also it's
contributing to that.
They aforementioned Lebanese communities and political circles.
But secondly, it's it's building
as strong alliance with existing liberty groups that
that did not
see the status quo as sustainable or desirable.
And,
thirdly,
it was trying to learn from the lessons
of the experience in and jordan as as
it was pursuing both.
Tracks.
That same year in in 19 71,
that the P established. It's it's new headquarters
in in Beirut.
A Palestinian
organization called black September was launched, and
it carried out various killings,
hostage shaking,
plain hijacking, sabotage,
most spectacularly the killing and kidnapping of members
of the Israeli
team at the 19 72 munich Olympics.
How did this organization
emerge and what were the connections between the
P
and in the organization?
Black September. And then and then lastly, what
were the broader movements
assessments of of the organization and the tactics?
That it employed?
Yeah. So it's I must say Daniel, it's
a very western question that you were you're
asking here. I I know that your,
anti colonial and spirit, body and mind, so
so we'll forgive you for that. But but
in In reality,
unfortunately,
in discussions are on Palestine, you're bound to
get some some colonial thinking
entering any conversation in in the Us.
So
I'm glad you are asking this question for
that reason.
Because I I think we need to correct
the way we look at these things.
First of all, Black September is a marginal
phenomena imp in history as an organization.
But it takes up a lot of space
and discussions of the pas revolution in the
West because most discussions in the palestinian and
of the p revolution in the West.
Are not interested in their evolution itself. This
grand phenomena that mobilize
hundreds of thousands of a refugee people.
Disperse people who I've been destroyed, exile from
his land, oppressed,
and I was trying to
itself in reagan regain its homeland.
Achieve liberation and return all the while playing
a huge
revolutionary role in the region, which belong.
You know, that that population, all of its
activities are reduced to terrorism. And and the
favorite subjects tend to be terror
organizations.
The case of,
black September, that wasn't actually not related to
the P0P0
is an umbrella group.
And we've described it before. It's not even
a group. It's supposed to be in the
national or representative of the palestinian people,
but it it is
comprised of
organizations that that that are cons
organizations of the P and that are represented
in his in its different structure.
The parliament in Exile, which is Pas National
Council That's highest authority. Those groups are represented
in it alongside independence and and alongside representatives
of the different ba Unions.
But and they're also a representative of the
executive committee of the P and and, of
course, the the top leadership, which is of
office of the chairman. But
that does not mean that you can say
this or that group
is is the P.
Okay? Now, Fat, which is 1 of the
largest groups in the P.
Like September is an shoot of the fat
organization. But its relationship with it
is very murky.
Definitely, there were figures that play the cure
role in it, in particular, about the wood.
And definitely,
key their figures about, yeah, add add a
connection. With that process.
You know, that that that is
clear.
I was seen
on the internal arena,
as
fat offs shoot that would compete with the
P piece offs shoot, which is the external
operations.
And they both enjoyed the certain level of
autonomy in a way. You know, they were
working
without
going back necessarily to the highest authorities within
their respective organizations,
they both had a focus
on,
a very tactical focus. They were focused on
things like hijacking, they were focused on
assassination and and so on.
Assassination
were
mainly focused on the arab arena. There weren't
that many of them, but the the the
1, of course, that was most
influential was assassination of was fatal done, which
was
Jordan's
prime minister,
and a figure that was seen as,
overseeing
post black September,
formula in Jordan.
And that and, you know, he was associated
with the Black September policy very strongly.
That figure is is, of course,
the most important by the way, Figure for
the Jordan damien right now, and and he's
seen as
he's most important figure also for
the
a tradition jordan that emphasizes Jordan national separate
ness from broader Palestinian
Jordan Society. So so so and that local
nationalism that we were talking about, it's often
associated with with with Was.
Although
Fyi, Like, he hey, he had the different
tradition.
He... It was involved in more pan or
projects before. We can talk about that.
If we want to later on. But
so he is a more complex figure than
he's presented by both the passing
Mnuchin and the with authorities.
In many cases,
that assassination was the biggest event actually in
the arena that they were engaged in.
On the international front, you mentioned Munich that
was indeed an operation.
What they would say is that they didn't
actually killed the athletes. They intended to exchange
them for the palestinian
hostages at lay in israeli Jail, and we
consider all of them to be hostages, by
the way,
because they're taken out of their homes are
taken out. They're arrested by Real authorities,
and there's
thousands of it of them at any given
moment. So
So that was the outlook at the time
on the part of organizations, like that. Of
course,
israeli authorities then push for an operation in
which there was an armed
confrontation,
and and these athletes were were were killed.
The reason why I say this is is
is actually it has contemporary relevance.
There's... If you look at what is happening
in Gaza today in relation to
those that
where those israelis that are where they can
Biomass Bahamas.
There a situation, of course, is
they're subjected to the hannibal doctrine often,
even some of the people that were killed
in K kombucha surrounding us on October 7
were subjected to the Hannibal doctrine. The idea
that
in an in a situation, in a hostage
situation, as israeli authorities would rather kill both
the hostage takers and the hostages
because they don't want, any
negotiations to take place. They would they prefer
that over exchanges or negotiations, which this... They
deemed to be signs of weakness.
So rather than treating these things politically, some
some people approach them as purely a way
of saying the past their evolution is immoral.
But the reality is, of course, all of
this is is is political. None no none
of this scene
is not embedded in politics. And we noticed
this from the case of Ireland, other cases
like that. You know, there were English people
that would say, though what's only discussion of
the Ira was
Bombing in Manchester or
attacks on on civilians.
But but then the bigger
questions get lost in in that. Equation. In
any case,
what also gets lost is,
the fact that
these were not the groups were central to
the overall revolutionary if it on.
This was just 1 tactic out of many.
The main feature of actually the pas revolution.
At that time,
was the
mobilization of troops
that would operate as gorilla
fighters?
And and that's on the military side?
On, the social side, it was the mobilization
of Palestinian society as a whole. That's why
you always add critiques internally
towards black September and also the external relations
branch of the P
within their own organizations. Those critiques different than
the western ones. They were not qui contest.
You know, they were not saying like, where
are doing terrorism Right? They were not
more realistic in character. But what they were,
contest was was was the question of
how beneficial is this for their evolution?
Can you carry out our evolution with plain
hijacking
and and an assassination here or there?
The answer from those involved organization, as well,
israelis do that all the time. They've assassinated
way more. They've done all of that.
Was not necessarily convincing to all past revolutionaries
or the... Even the majority of them because
there was this view that
And what's the priority and the number 1
priority is to increase
the military capacity of the revolution on the
ground,
to be able to create a major buildup
where you could confront the Israeli forces in
a long term People.
How was it that this framework
first
took cold and then developed that that is
Israeli violence was legitimate
and always inherently a matter of self defense
while
all Palestinian violence
was is a form
of terrorism. This
doesn't mean of course, that 1 cannot morally
object to certain actions
taken by whatever faction for the long history
of armed struggle, but But after all,
it was colonial in zion violence that ethnically
qui as much of Palestine of its indigenous
population.
And that has continued to do so
in 19 67, and then
ever since then, and, of course, since 19
48,
Israel has killed far, far,
far more Palestinians.
Than Palestinians have killed
Israelis. It's just a be labor
a point that's obvious to anyone who's got
into this point in the series.
How and when though did this framework take
root and become such common sense in the
west?
I mean, it was used
earlier it was used as early as as
the beginnings of the of the British
mandate. And, of course,
and was... It continued to be used whenever
there was opacity in
uprising or evolution. So so we see it
every time. There's anything like that.
And definitely, in the 19 seventies,
the
external operations and the operations of black September
both external operations of P and extra under
operation back September,
bring the the cost of the of what's
going on in Palestine to the West. Of
course, that was part of their logic. I
didn't mention this bit. You know, we mentioned
it an earlier episode. For the P p,
it was
the the notion of chasing the enemy everywhere,
and including in the countries that they saw
a sponsoring
israeli estate.
So so
if the West is sponsoring this real estate
and gets away with it every time. It
never feels any social cost to it any
political cost that was the kind of argument
that they were that they were approaching there.
Of course,
that allowed then Western governments to say these
are international terrorists
in a way,
much of the
security setup in airports and so on belongs
to that period
because of passing operations, so that's by product.
Of course, as as we know states of
exception become part of everyday life and and
and that comes out of, of course, that
that period. So definitely, policy get more absorbed
in terms of if earlier they they just
were erased from the picture. During the the
fifties and sixties.
And then you suddenly start hearing the word
Palestine
1 the time when you have battle of,
and and, you know, you have, like, some
pas independent military capacity developing.
But then it becomes a big discussion with
these operations. And that was, of course, the
argument of people like like September and the
external operations in Beautifully. They were saying, these
people are trying to erase us.
So only these operations will allow them to
talk about Palestine. They are forced to talk
about it.
Others, of course, Had the assessment in the
past Irene arena. They were saying there's other
ways of making them talk about it and
making them
stop their support for this Israeli state. So
this this course,
though the the that you referred to, Daniel.
I wanna
mention
another point that's important to know. It is
not just restricted to palestinians.
And it comes out of a broader anti
colonial dynamic that starts actually with the Americas
And and IIIII
really think that that we have to emphasize
this point.
It's the day before
July fourth, and
that's a day that sometimes
Americans read the declaration of independence
and they can read right there that 1
of the North American settle colonists
rationale
for rebelling against the king of England.
Was
a total projection
of
violent tendencies onto
the colonized
victim of the colonize violence.
Here's the here's the here's the actual text.
This is amongst the the the complaints against
the king He has excited domestic instructions amongst
us and is endeavor to bring on the
inhabitants of our frontiers, the Mer Indian savages.
Whose known rule of warfare
is an un distinguished
destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
Absolutely. And and then,
you know, the other interesting thing about that,
of course, is in the meantime,
in in the american revolution, we have the
right to bear arms being celebrated, and the
discussions around that. And the right to... Their
colonists to go and fight for their liberty.
So their right to practice violence is is
in ent us and celebrate as far as
their concerned.
You know, if if we're talking about American
comments, if we're talking about any,
let's say,
major,
group that belongs to these countries that are
the western countries,
except for the irish, of course, they're always
they're always treated because they're colonized, they're treated
in a different way. But if it's a
colon nation,
then it has a right to practice violence.
And and and it's
know, and we've seen it. Like, I mean,
I always mentioned this in in lectures in
my in my class when I talk about
these dimensions.
Of course, nowadays students don't watch Western, But
maybe you you did the daniel at some
point or they used to put them on
Tv
you know, across the world. And
It's always the Indians are attacking a train,
so called indians, of course, attacking a train,
you know, so it's indigenous people fighting,
for no reason,
attacking for no reason, and they're usually killing
an innocent white women or... And then they're
scalp and they're whatever.
And nobody talks about, well, what's the train
doing there? And and how did it get
there? And
and and also,
you know, so this is a part of
the pattern so it's not just palestinians that
are subjected to this starts with indigenous people
of this country.
It includes also enslaved people in this country,
mean, look at all the discussions around,
instead people's rebellions,
and it becomes becomes about you know, their
violence. It's not it's not but they're subjected
to the worst violence that has been known
in history. This evil institution that that something
I mean, we don't need to
expo on it because I I believe in
the dig, you you you you talk about
it all the time. But I mean, I
I can't think of a more evil institution
in a human history. You know, it's like
unbelievable violence. It's based on violence. Everything about
it is well... But no. It's... Oh, these
sick people are the problem. So it becomes
a
African Americans has become the problem. And and,
of course,
you know,
whenever a people is sub,
for the for the I imperialist and the
colonial, that's that's part of the logic. Now,
that's why it's not coincidental dental by the
way, that in the literature on the laws
of war, the main challenge to this came
actually from
Professor.
So so who happens to have been my...
To be my mentor, actually. I mean,
Carmen sea. She just got honor actually in
the British society from eastern studies for her
lifetime achievements. But
she had actually written a great book called
traditions of war,
occupation resistance in in the law, And it's
about precisely that. How the different
traditions of war come about.
And and
this even happens in Europe. In fact, Karma
shows that the laws of war
were privileged in Imperial powers within europe even
they started actually through doing that. So they
were geared against the poles
in the eighteenth century they were geared against,
the cor and the
republic that was established there. They were designed
to to to allow for colonial violence and
imperial violence
and to prevent
resistance
on the part of people that that that
are in a different structural position. And that
that applies definitely to the palestinian people.
Before we get to the October war of
19 73, what what more generally did the
Guerrilla struggle against Israel look like during this
period and in between black September
and the October war of 19 73.
And then
how was israel?
Responding.
1 what notable Israeli tactic was
assassination.
An assassination campaign that included
really important cultural figures, like the P p
leader in Poet Ga Con, who was
killed alongside his 17 year old niece by
a massage carb bomb in Beirut in in
19 72?
Yeah. So in this period,
the vast majority of operations were actually
Geared towards establishing first of all, at presence
in the areas border Palestine, which meant in
the Lebanese east South.
Then carrying out reconnaissance your unit
unit work
inside
the areas
across the border. Which were under the control
of the Israeli colonial state,
and
sometimes
carrying out the attacks in those areas.
So that... Those are the 3 types of
the main the main kind of types of
operations that we're going on.
For the most part, actually, most attacks happen
inside Lebanese territory
where you had Israelis bombarding,
or or carrying out actions.
And sometimes,
these were actions that that that took on
the form you just described your assassination attempts.
So so
if you wanna look at it structurally because
this is what people sometimes miss? They say,
well, where where is the effectiveness? Why it
wasn't it a, you know, and they make
comparisons
with stuff that happened much later, like the
say has Ba 2006.
And
and
what what what is forgotten is that actually
much of
the period of the palestinian presence lebanon
was geared towards establishing?
Military presence in the south.
So that was a struggle in its own
right.
Because it meant that you had to overcome
Lebanese army restrictions to overcome israeli raids
and
bombardment, which were constant.
You had to
carry out, you know, very complex set of
negotiations with the local villagers and the local
societies surrounding.
Nevertheless, you had bases or established, you had
operations
beginning to commence.
And then, you know, in that context, you
also had to explore the territory.
So from a military perspective, there was a
lot that needed to be done.
And and and much of it had to
do with setting up an infrastructure.
That could be later deployed effectively
at carry out bigger operations. In the meantime,
you also needed
small operations
that would accumulate
to ensure that their mobilization would grow.
So we had this
dimension
that was going on. You needed to inspire
in the masses the idea that there are
operations happening every day, you're joining a movement
isn't just a pointless activity actually, because people
wanted to fight.
But if you're a milk military plan, you
understood that
there's more to this than just an immediate
fight. Actually, you needed to build capacity.
So,
you know, there there were all sorts of,
you know, dimensions to this to this process.
But israelis
were throughout their main objective was to prevent
the emergence of a serious infrastructure
that could then,
create a a direct
threat to them. And as that infrastructure became
increasingly possible.
That's when they
really made sure to go all out.
And go and route it out completely, which
was, of course, there's really an invasion of
82, which we'll talk about later on.
Yeah. So you had
another is israeli that mentioned that was going
on. Was presented as responding to capacity action,
but really it's part of a more comprehensive
competitive policy. Has nothing to do with responding.
With with the assassination of intellectual,
and and leading P figures.
So the the the big events in this
regard, you know, we have
multiple ones. And they kept on going by
the way, Crypto happening.
And you know, this is where black September,
the organization you asked about also enters into
the equation because it it becomes, like,
there's this constant
struggle around assassination abroad that that that they're
connected to to.
But
locally in in in in the region in
Beirut.
You have
a great intellectual.
The the an amazing pas in novel list,
really like a agenda 1, A second Fannie,
And I really encourage people
to read him because he writes from a
very sensitive human lens.
Like, for example,
returning to Hai,
is a very short novel,
but it has this incredible dynamic between
and family from hai
and and the Holocaust surviving Jewish family that
comes and takes up their home.
And and they have this dialogue over a
lost son of the other family that gets
adopted by the Jewish family. So it's like
a an incredible,
but but by the way, It's a it's
a Novel. And that also
understands,
the Jewish plight in Europe very sensitive.
This is somebody
who's an international. This is somebody who,
establishes the P piece main,
political,
you know, organ, the newspaper,
After the split between, the D and the
P,
Pi loses, of course, the the the its
main mouthpiece, which was a,
which was the mouthpiece of the move Arab
and a nationalist. So then now they have
to move
and establish their own outfit. That can of
fan he does that. He establishes and hud
of the the the goal.
He's pursuing Marxist islamist analysis. He's discussing all
sorts of intellectual issues,
liberation, of women and social liberation is is
incredible and intellectual. You know, truly great novel.
Anyways,
this person,
of course, had been
from Y
in 19 48.
Had lived a life of constant struggle
ends up losing his life
at a at a very, very,
young age and and his niece gets killed
with him in in a car exposure. They
start saying, well, he's a spokesperson for a
terrorist organization doesn't that. Which is, of course,
the usual.
Logic. But by losing him,
we lost a great intellectual figure.
And that's part of the pattern that we
refer to as sc,
you know, the of intellectual thinkers,
the killing of scholars,
the murder of of educators.
The destruction of universities
and schools,
from
k to 12 from from from
first year of University to to to Phd,
all of that happens
systematically.
So,
it's assassination of Ken in 70. Now Of
course,
sadly enough,
and this is AAA very sad story.
K. When can I find it gets assassinated,
it gets featured
on the pages of f,
which is the, the the main P o
publication organ?
But it doesn't get featured enough, So their
editor
came command master is a friend,
poet from Federer.
But it it create a wonderful poet. You
know, he he he wants to...
He was, like, how dare you're not feature.
And, absolutely go and do, like, a big
feature. You know, like it they...
And he says, like, he wants to be
buried next to him,
if he ever
gets killed and, of course,
come Las was a was a Christian and
kind finding his most of them normally people
are buried in separate s threes.
But
but they did end up getting burned next
to each other in in the March
Graveyard then Beirut. I mean, there's
for any visitor tomato, you'll find so many
evolutionary figures there,
including this 1,
and these 2,
great
palestinian riders.
And Ka
gets assassinated the following year
as part of the the what was perhaps
the most important assassination attempt because it killed,
he was
primarily targeted for military reasons.
But, you know, of course, it's legitimate
to target people in their homes regardless.
But he had been heading
something that was called the Western sector, the
dial that'd be,
which is a a section of further
that was organizing
responsible for organizing the buildup of revolutionary capacity
and the occupied territories of that West Bank
and gu. So so they were called the
Western section. They...
So he was,
clearly a major target of the Israelis because
they did not want to see our evolution
after there eventually. So...
But
that assassination actually causes a shift
in the policy of the P o in
Lebanon.
And this is quite consequential
because what becomes clear is that these authorities
are not protecting
p seeing and political figures in the in
lebanon in Beirut, and that's their job.
So the P starts increasingly
bringing in armed units to protect its main
leaders in this area.
Okay?
And its offices and other establishments and installations.
That brings it
away from the
countryside in the south and more into the
capital Beirut,
which creates
an element of
contradiction,
with the Lebanese state that gets heightened or
and more is presence in the urban areas
gets felt much more. After this assassination.
Let's turn to the 19 73
October war when
Syria and Egypt,
both of which had territories
occupied by Israel since 19 67
launched
a combined attack against Israel with the Us
strongly backing Israel and the Soviets
behind the Arab states. The war
the war wasn't exactly an Israeli defeat and
yet
yet it rein
arab political and military confidence
and humbled Israel.
The war also prompted arab oil producing states,
not not the entirety of Opec, but but
it's arab members led by Saudi Arabia
to impose an oil embargo on the United
States and other countries
aligned with Israel.
Why did the war play out
the way that it did operationally?
And then geopolitical
in terms
of both this regional balance of forces between
Israel
and the Palestinians and the Arab states and
also
this larger balance of forces of the global
cold war?
Right. So
you know, we need we need to
remind our listeners, Daniel of something we mentioned
before, which is after 67. Of course,
the arab states lost a lot of land
belonging to them.
And that included, of course, Egypt and Syria.
Egypt lost sinai peninsula, which was so important
for Egypt.
Syria lost the Heights.
The whole situation was a total mess
that Israelis were enjoying this period
where they were pretending to be
you know, in
in in, like, a a force that is
above the law, but also cannot be defeated.
There was this mythology around it.
An Officer had actually initiated a program
to confront that.
He was trying to
encourage
the Soviet Union with which he was live
to give him better weapons.
He was occurring out
a massive,
attempt to rebuild the army,
along new lines, more effective lines.
He had initiated
at what what what was known as a
as an as a war of attrition
on the under the boundaries to prepare
for something
bigger.
So there was this
situation where it was clear that the states
could not stand still when large spots their
tertiary were lost,
especially egypt and and and answer.
This
effort, of course, continued
to re arm and rebuild the military both
countries continued
after the death of Masa. And better along
the lines that were set out, by him.
So that
and was
determined to to carry out action in knew
that it was needed.
But, of course,
he had a different vision for action, than
the 1 that Nasa did or than the
1 that is new partner
half as an asset in Syria had.
So that
considered that, the Americans.
Held keys to the region,
and that he wanted to carry out a
war
that would
lead to the initiation of a peace process
that would result in the return off
Egyptian territory.
So
this was his model.
So a limited war
was what he was trying to achieve.
In the case of I have as an
asset, you wanted
a word that would bring back the Go,
which would mean, like, a more determined, like,
you know, vibration war.
At least for syrian territories.
Now
the
realities on the ground meant
you know, so that's
vision eventually
1,
because he he he
war without him could not take place.
You know.
So
you know, the same goes, there's no word
without Egypt and no peace without Syria that
was coming from that period. You know,
you can't carry out, like a serious challenge
with this israeli state the the major,
military intervention or on the part of of
Each egypt. At least when it comes to
classical armies.
Wars.
And
to do that, of course,
better weapons
needed to be achieved and and procured from
the Soviets,
Eventually, so that does a there's a trick
to do that. It takes a tough stance
with them as as h notes,
he calls it, like, the top stance with
the
with the Soviet friend, mark firm For Soviet.
That's how we framed it.
You know, so so you needed
ex of Soviet experts and creating a whole
drama to be able to
get greater commitment from the Soviets.
Because something like this,
obviously acquired
very strong weaponry,
and acquired the air cover.
And and,
essentially, the war required crossing the canal,
Suez canal.
And and this this was this is a
very expensive thing to do.
Once the weaponry is procured and secured and
once the plans happen, The plan was actually
very effectively implemented. It's israelis
thought that there was no war.
There was even a betrayal
to both Syria and Egypt,
Jordan king Hussein went to golden here and
warned her, he thought he would get some
credits out of that.
But,
luckily for for their regions you'd ignored them,
and did not believe him. Others, you know,
like,
you know, there were some israeli spies that
were suggesting there was war. There was this
thinking that Wasn't gonna hack on the part
of this Israeli government.
But it did happen. And israelis we're only
able to
push back the the the the Syrian Egyptian
forces
as a result of,
huge,
enormous American commitment,
like an an a massive air lift
it was established,
of weapons and and and support of all
kinds.
And, of course, you know, kissing was behind,
much of that policy.
And, you know, this starts a tradition in
American
politics, of course.
Of committing
weapons to Israel more than the combined weaponry
of the of the all the Arab States
around
So so
you know, it continues to this day, by
the way, this commitment. It's from from from
the United States. So that's orchestrated.
In that context. But
despite the fact that you have this,
Us sponsor pushback, 1 1 political,
and despite the fact that and this is
the focus
actually of many air political comment. That's so
that could have gone further.
He could have actually
had he
allowed Egyptian troops to proceed
much further into the depths of the Israeli
estate. Who knows it could have reached the
aviv. We don't know. That's realistic or not.
But like, you know, they could have gone
for,
at least further than they did.
And that's basically the the the line has
taken by
even 1 of the main
Egyptian figures at the time the later of
the army sadly,
and his in his
memoirs and testimony. He he says, like, look,
this was, we were politically stopped as an
army. We could have gone further.
Now was certainly the position of H.
You he felt tricked.
He felt that said that did not want
to win the war. He just wanted to
initiate a political process.
And that he did. He got kissing engaged
with him.
There was a tall shallow diplomacy
suddenly after the war there was all the
discussion of, like, okay, we need a peaceful
conference because these states, okay, this time they
didn't push the war further.
But if if there's no pillar political process,
maybe they will. In the future. Another major
work could break up. Yeah. I wanna I
wanna talk about the diplomatic situation that played
out throughout the 19 seventies
in the wake of the October war,
and and there are a lot of moving
pieces here, some of which you were just
getting into.
First,
I wanna talk about the the larger
regional geopolitics and specifically how they fit into
the global cold war.
And then I wanna get into how the
P approach
approached these questions and and the intense debates
that all provoked within the Palestinian national movement.
So so first, after
19 73,
what were the Soviet in Ames in the
region
in general and regarding Palestinians in particular, my
sense,
and and please correct me if I'm wrong,
my sense,
is that the Soviets
essentially
accepted
the zion conquest of the 19 48 territories,
what what in mainstream ideological loaded western, language
would be described as, quote unquote, accepting Israel's
right to exist.
In other words, the Soviets were not at
all dedicated to liberating the entirety of Palestine
or or to the Pillows vision of a
singular democratic state, they wanted some form
of comprehensive settlement that included AA2 state solution.
And then on the Us end, it seems
as though Henry Kissing, who's who served under
both Nixon and then Ford
that he was driven by
an overwhelming desire to ice Palestinians
and the P out of any
Arab israeli negotiations and then settlement and then
for any settlement of the Palestinian union question
to be essentially imposed on the P, and
that motivated by that
and
the objective of just driving the Soviets out
of the Middle East entirely despite
the Us pretending to be committed to D
dupont. Is is this right? How do you
assess the the Us and Soviet Ames and
and posture here?
Right. So so
you right to say that the Soviets
were committed to a 2 state solution,
and and and It's not a 2 state
solution that that that ran along Palestinian alliance.
And for in many ways,
they they they had accepted as a colonial
state, as you in 19 48.
They never questioned
the right of that state to continue. They
even accepted the expansion of the territory of
that state beyond
the boundaries that were given to it by
the Un. And so essentially, we have the
Soviets supporting.
They wanted the pass the and state of
over to emerge and 67,
along 67
lines.
And that's, of course, after the past seen
revolution starts working.
Because before that they weren't even talking about
Palestine and Palestinians.
You know, everybody was just pretending that it's
just a an issue between Jordan and Egypt
and the Israeli state. So it's an arab
israel israeli conflict, not a palestinian zion is
conflict.
The
Americans
had a different outlook.
The the the
Americans
keep on talking about a to solution. But
the honest truth is
they've they've long been supporting and structurally.
Just an Israeli
solution... Is israeli any solution that would circumvent
capacity.
They they want to have
Israel accepted by surrounding our countries,
especially Henri kissing, you know, he plays a
big role in this. And and interestingly enough,
by the way, Endo Kissing spends the entirety
the seventies ensuring the past and don't have
a place on the table.
And recently,
in
interviews after October seventh.
The main point that you kept on making
is Hamas cannot have a seat on the
table
in this context.
David... And and this is very interesting because
that's his whole outlook.
Is no matter what you keep the palestinians
out.
You know, of course, use committed zion. We
know this is an anti arab person is
incredibly racist.
You know,
like, in an imperial, see committed crimes of
Vietnam. It's not just it's not just particular
to this region. This is this is a
very typical and imperialist character,
but but of a of of a of
the heavyweight. Like, it's like you know, you
get these characters like the churchill shows and
the kissing it done so much damage globally
that, you know,
it's really unfortunate. But, of course,
Palestine was part of the damage they created
and and and it's severe. But in the
case of Palestine, what they've done to our
people is it's just awful.
And and I wish they would be tried,
but unfortunately, they tend to live long and
healthy lives and and live in fancy
mansions and
and that's 1 of the sad realities of
the world we live in.
That imperial and capitalist drive while others
you know, die,
unfortunately.
But,
of course, I'm an opt, Daniel, and I,
like, a overstate, you know, I I do
think that
this should not be personalized as well because
these are representatives of structures of power
that exists in our world. And And and
and I I do I do believe that
1 day... The these structures will be overthrown
in the case of of Palestine and in
other cases. The same way that
that Kissing was defeated in Vietnam
and his likes.
They they will eventually be defeated in in
Palestine.
And what's important for us is not their
defeat, but the victory of the people, and
the freedom of the people themselves, You know,
so that's what matters.
And equality for everyone there.
So
in any case,
equality was not something these people believe in.
They wanted to settle a colonial state that
would have we incorporated into the region accepted
by it at the expense of the people...
The indigenous population there.
The P o
it's entire diplomacy in this period is geared
towards
ensuring that it gets a place on the
table.
And
to do that, it has
a bunch of
steps that it needs to make. First of
all,
it needs to gain air recognition
that is more official than it had before.
So
prior to this period,
there is our support for that establishment with
the Appeal of course, But there's a lot
of tension around who represents passing people because
of the fact that a cons member of
the Arab bleak, Jordan Ash kingdom. Jordan claims
that it
represents the west back.
And this becomes a big,
you know, problem.
They're opposed to P
representation.
So,
the aftermath of the 73 war,
we see an effort to
increase our recognition,
through the Arab league and that gets secured.
Okay. So you have the situation where the
arab league
adapts
passes recognition. And then that pave way for
recognition in the United Nations
through inviting the Chairman of the P to
address it.
And and that becomes the famous
19 74
speech that our fuck gives there.
I think that that kissing knew
that that he could start, like, AAA
process that that the minute he opens the
door of the Us to these regional states,
they will exit the Soviet or They a
understood very well that
most of these states went to the Soviet
orbit,
not by choice, but out of necessity.
In case of Egypt, definitely.
With the Syrian,
he he he also understood that half of
that Asset was a realist,
and and that and that he's not necessarily
wedded to the Soviet union And you wants
syrian sovereignty
and and and he does not trust the
United States, but he will engage with the
United States on a bunch of files,
and he did.
As was the case, of course, in the
Syrian entry at lebanon 76. So
But but some of this scholarship now just
sent that are aren't cold war dynamics.
I actually think that the main thing that
because considering was doing was bolstering the Israeli
estate. That his anchoring point here. Following up
on that last question,
was Kissing approach here motivated by by cold
war ambitions
specifically
to push the Soviet Union out of the
Middle East? Or
was this
more a matter
of Henry Kissing
own ideological
commitment to Israel, his
personal ideology
him being an art and zion.
There's definitely daniel elements of cold war
mentality in operation here. And, of course,
the cold war always plays a big role
in American politics.
And Kissing
was very involved in it.
But there's also a specificity
for a kissing dealing
with,
the Israeli state specifically when it comes. To
its place in the Middle East. And
I think a lot of this scholarship
assumes or presume that There's only 1 way
of conducting a cold war
in this region. And that way is to
support Israel.
That that is not the case.
Con entire policy was geared towards strengthening the
Israeli state,
side lining the Palestinians from the entire equation.
And
conducting essentially,
a situation where arab states,
are,
broken up where they they cannot present the
unified front, and of course, the unifying front
in arab politics at the time was was
was the Palestine.
Question
Now,
why I say is so important to think
about
this in more nuanced ways than usual.
I happen to be
1 of the people that
has
checked consistently
histories of the air bright
and how they talk to Empire.
Based on documents,
based on their
internal deliberations, with the Empire.
And when you look at the ways in
which our right us communicating at the time.
With the american empire I remember, these are
the people that you'd want to focus on
in the cold war.
People like King f.
People like the gulf
rulers.
People like even king Hussein and others.
The emphasis
in all of their deliberations with
the United States and with its ally Britain,
was on the fact that there's israeli state
is a liability.
That it is opening up many spaces for
descent for the spread of communist ideas for
alignment with the Soviet Union. I mean, let
us not forget why is it? That every
arab state that took a radical path during
to the Soviet Union. Initially, it had to
do with armament
and initially, it had to do with armament
that were connected very much to
the wars with the with the Israeli state.
Now, that does not mean
that there were not radical forces that sought,
some form of arrangement with the Soviet Union
in the arab region,
based on
a revolutionary program
that had what people would have called it
the time Were
ambitions.
So, you know, there there was
you know, in the seventies, you had all
of this discussion on the part of the
more radical arab movements, especially in the auto
critiques.
Saying, look, the the the the small was
the
elements that entered into the revolutionary struggled.
There they wanted
agricultural reform and land form.
They wanted
genuine sovereignty,
none alignment,
is a call component of that.
And they
wanted a situation where there would be
a bigger horizon for cooperation in the region
and possibly even integration when it comes to
the air nationalist side of it.
So
Their demands
were enhanced, of course, by,
an arrangement that would bring the soviet union
into
the picture
precisely because the Us was opposed to
these kind of visions globally not just in
this part of the world. However,
some of their demands were not
incompatible
with certain
Us
visions because the number 1,
and most important objective for the Us in
this region at the time
was Gulf foil.
And that meant that
what you needed was a
stabilization program.
And if that meant dealing with some of
the social questions that were posed by radical
movements, there could have been arrangements
reached by Empire. I'm not promoting the line
here by the way that revolutionary movements should
have
cooperated with Empire, and they didn't, and they
didn't want to, and they shouldn't have. Because
at the end of the day,
the the Us has
been an enemy of of progress in this
part of the world and and revolution. In
in its official policies, not, of course, the
People necessarily.
But
when it comes to the question of, of,
Israel and zion,
there was always a different logic in operation
and that was very ideological.
That that question about kissing really leads into
the broader question of what motivated such overwhelming
Us support for Israel.
It's a really
classic question that continues to divide people on
the left was
wasn't is is real important to the Us
because it's an instrument of Us power in
the region or
or was it wasn't an is it that
the Israel lobby
causes the Us to so strongly support Israel
beyond what is quote, unquote, objectively strategic for
the Us Say, quote unquote is obviously
strategic interest, objective, strategic interests are are contingent
and constructed. But
zooming out, what what more broadly
does create this relationship and are there changes
that we should be noting
historically in the Us approach to Israel into
the Palestinian question from between,
say, 19 48 and where we are now
in this history, the the 19 seventies.
I mean, what is what is striking the
Daniel in left discussions at the moment on
this is,
first of all, there lack of engagement with
the serious history.
They're based on
you know,
positions that are already pre formulated and pre
fabric. And and
Also, what I find striking about them is
there actually lack of serious marxism.
Because and by marxism, I mean, the way
Marx used to treat things.
So, Marc when he was dealing with political
questions, of course, including geopolitical questions. He was
accounting for
the the way
the social interest and the political interest
interact in any given space.
Okay? And and and he was... Able... He
he had very nuanced
approaches to that. We see very little of
that when it comes to analysis of this
question. It's either
a very vulgar econ
understanding of imperial in the region. So Israel
is needed
because
oh, the oil.
Well, I mean, any color of the gulf
that really checks the documents on the Gulf
will know that... Or or or has a
basic understanding of how gulf oil was controlled.
Will tell you that there was no need
whatsoever
for Israel
when the Us setup,
it's
it's Saudi
operations in the 19 thirties or when Britain
was setting up its entire regional system that
that pre dates,
even this the Zion
project when it comes to the British arrangement
around this. They already had a security formula
for for the gulf. And the main problem
for them in the Gulf was actually Iran
and Iraq and and and the in the
case of the Gulf state... The smaller Gulf
states, Saudi Arabia.
So
these these security discussions you know, are not
based or rooted in in reality.
What we do find however, is that is
that as israeli presence goes the stabilization for
the gulf states.
So it was seen as as a liability
from from their perspective, not not as an
asset. And those that promote however, this this
line, including by the way people in the
air well.
Think that, this was a question of dividing
the region. So by transplant this,
this entity in the region a colony,
you're gonna,
you know, divert energies from liberation and and
cause
division.
I think that's that's not
a good way of understanding how imperial works
or makes decisions.
You know, that I I find no evidence,
whatsoever,
that the initial deliberations
around the setting up of the Central Colonial
state or it's later support,
were based on
this logic specifically,
of we need to divide this region. And
that's for a very simple reason, which is
that they already had dominated the region.
They didn't need, you know, when they were
setting up this project. The British had control
over this suez canal. You know, sometimes people
tell you he needed to protect sewers. Like,
they they had control over Suez was and
they had control over Palestine military.
It was... They could it could they could
have find... They you could have functioned as
a as a
turned it into a colony basically or something
along these lines.
We talked about decimal times before. Now when
it comes to the,
my own under understanding, and I think where
the left needs to upgrade this discussion. Because
also on the other side, you have this
lobby argument.
Which I... Which is equally problematic because that
just views
politics as detached from capital detached from empire
detached from you know, and and assumes a
certain... In some cases, it assumes even good
intent on the part of imperial,
America was is a well intention. They that
got dragged into this by But, you know
who?
Yeah. And and and worst in the worst
versions of this lobby argument there are serious
anti semitic elements to. You know, not all
of it by the way. So it's, you
know, there's there's very serious arguments made by
people who promote the lobby line or that
they're not anti semitic, but There are also...
There's a right wing version that is anti
semitic. Now,
the the
actual alternative and I think is is a
serious alternative and it's the it's the genuinely
it's alternative that that would apply genuine Marxist
analysis
is to treat zion.
And and I've said this before, and...
I'm pretty much
I've been trying to promote this widely as
much as I can. It's to secreted as
a genuine political and social movement because it
is.
It it is it has been operating in
the Us usc in in a very serious
ways and it has
a very effective lobbying arm, but it also
has deep social roots.
There are mothers that work to, create grassroots
support for Israel. Today, even, during ring this
genocide. You know, you have these other groups
on Facebook, for example, There are harassing school
administrators.
They're that are promoting Genes genocide denial, unfortunately.
There are
student movements. Now less so in our day
and age, but in the old days, used
to be an active
zion student movement. There is work in political
parties. There is...
So all of this
indicates the existence.
Of not only
an ideology, of course, zion is which, of
course, does exist,
but also,
a social base for that ideology. And yes,
that ideology
is developed in relation to a faraway place
Palestine,
but it's treated as a domestic concern by
these people.
And and
by by it's promoter,
of by the borders of this ideology. And
by the... Those that belong to the social
and political movement are wounded.
There is an element of capital. There is
a capitalist story in this, which is, of
course, that without,
the inequities.
In in in the global order. Like serious
economic inequities equities
would not have been possible
to 4,
European states and later on North American States
to impose
as a colonial project on on on a
region mike out of the of the of
the Middle East.
There is an imperialist that I dimension, of
course.
But
that form of imperial is very much. Connected
to
a domestic movement as well.
And
we see this in other cyclical colonial cases,
especially with settle colonial cases, there is a
domestic
dimension to the imperial question.
Now,
I I would suggest that this is actually
more intense intense domestic dimension.
Because in in this case,
there's a stronger or religious ideology around it.
You know, 1 section of this political social
movement is rooted it in Christian zion.
Another section is rooted in reform reformation of
jewish theology.
There other sections that are rooted in the
development of Jewish nationalism
after the the... Especially after the second world
war, but even
before that. So all of this has to
be taken into account when we want to
seriously
analyze Zion.
And and the way it works.
And it seems like there's beyond these specific
bases for zion as an American social movement.
There's this more general
ideological American
commitment
to zion. That's obviously in a bit of
crisis right now, but that
comes to see Israel as so much like
the Us. That it's essentially an extension of
the Us. They are us, the October seventh
attack is an attack almost on American soil.
Yes. And and and this,
Daniel, is there's a huge and massive literature,
of course, on this.
And and, you know, we've we've had many
studies discussing the cultural dimension. Because, of course,
there are similarities,
but but there are also different. The similarities
lie in this in the fact that this
is a such a colonial state. The the
fact that
there was a religious imagery used in this
conquest
including specifically relating to Palestine, like on, the
you can add, all of this. And there's
so many elements that you could draw on
to create a culture of support for the
israeli state in this.
But the point is that this offers the
cultural register.
But there's somebody... There's... There has to be
immediate force
that that brings that register to the 4
and acts on it.
These are speech acts at the end of
the day,
Daniel, and they have to be made by
someone.
And the space where that gets made is
the political space. And we have to treat
it as such. This is a political battle,
and and it has to be dealt with
us such. This is why I emphasize this.
And now,
a serious class analysis also has to now
be applied to the
the cons
elements
which
you know, the original Zion alliance was made,
and which is now changing
because what we're seeing now, and I think
it's very clear to people.
Is if you apply serious class analysis now
to, for example, American Jewish populations.
You'll see that it's much more likely for
middle class Jews to be losing support for
this project now. And and we see this
across the board. It's it's much more likely
and also if we apply a cultural analysis
lens. It's much more likely for intellectual
just to be losing support for this for
this now.
Amongst Christian circles,
there were churches that also reform their ideology.
But
what we're seeing though is the big capital.
Okay,
of of Christian domination or within within Jewish
communities or elsewhere
are hardening their support.
Because the this question has been rep packaged
now as a question of left and right.
Increasingly,
Palestine is seen as a commitment for the
left.
Whereas supporting Israel is a commitment for the
right.
And then to follow up, are are there
changes
that we should be noting here in the
Us approach to Israel,
both in terms of concrete,
Us policy, but also in terms of
the more general American ideological commitment Israel
and
how Americans relate to the Palestinian question,
how all this changes over time between, say,
19 48 and where we are now in
this story, the 19 seventies.
Yes. So,
of course, in 19 48, the Us plays
a big role in setting up the Israeli
central colonial state. And that was primarily
through
diplomatic pressure.
Diplomatic pressure both on the states that were
members of the Un. And later on,
various forms of diplomatic pressure
to ensure that that state
continues to, be able to sustain itself.
Globally after
the the war.
On the military front,
much of the, armament we're flowing from Europe
and Western Europe in particular,
in the in the early stages of the
formation of Israeli state. And, of course,
as we've discussed earlier,
even the first major weapons shipment then,
was was from the Eastern block.
During the 19 48 war.
Zion militias are able to
achieve victory in that war
through,
a check arms
deal.
But,
I know we have a transformation happening
where
there is this
primarily the diplomatic and and economic assistance given,
it gets
more and more intense,
as we enter the sixties,
that said, we should not fall into the
trap
that is is is suggested by some scholars
saying,
the relationship becomes only significant after 6 7
war. Because in the fifties, for example, the
Us designs
entire regional policies around the Israeli question. Its
relationships with Egypt. Its relationships with other
states in the region are shaped by that.
And they're trying to pressure these states to
accept the settle colonial presence in their midst
and to normalize.
And to reset processing
refugees. So That is a major
major commitment on the part of the United
States Israeli state.
Now,
the sixties, we have we have major transformations
taken place, of course.
You know, throughout the forties and fifties,
yes, you have supporters of Israel winning
within the internal
deliberations of Us Empire, but there are also
the dissent.
There were strong voices
that did not see, an Israel first policy
as beneficial for imperial interest, and and they
were saying that within this statement. Department, and
elsewhere within the Us elite, you know,
you had all sorts of figures that that
that were deeply involved in designing the lease
policy.
Were identified by this zion lobby as the
Arab within the State department. For example.
Know those tended to be regional experts. Who
wanted to pursue
an imperial policy based on,
their realities prevailing in their in their regional
sphere.
They get sidelined increasingly. So
the new innovation in the 19 sixties,
and and that starts really with the kennedy
years, but it it gets much more intense
under Johnson.
Is that,
in the domestic arena, the domestic foreign policy
arena, the Israel lobby achieves major victories.
And and and and that's a significant
dynamic that takes place, including, most importantly the
humiliation of Senator Fu.
And the failure of the senate
investigation committee that he had set up
to look into the influence of, Israeli
Lob in in in Washington. So so that's
an important
turning point.
For those who are interested in in these
kind of dynamics. There's a new book by
Il Pap, lobbying on both sides of the
atlantic client, of course, Elon always is a
fantastic historian and and and a great and
zion
towering figure within,
the,
Israeli seen Is is is the is the
best Israeli historian
alive. And and
a true visionary. In any case,
the
changes that happened after 67.
Are are huge though.
Because
the the the Us to begin with, it
authorizes 67, of course, you know, Johnson does
that. It gives the green light. It creates
the conditions where such a thing is possible.
And and, you know, a war like this
could not
be
conducted without the approval and support of, 1
of the major superpower.
But then,
we end up with
the victory in that war being used within
Washington.
On the part of the,
political and social movement, we referred to that
design and its lobbying arms.
To make an argument within
national security, the national security establishment, saying
Israel is the main Us asset here. It's
it's it's... It becomes like almost like a
self fulfilling prophecy.
They they they become, the main our arm
of of Us military power in in in
the region. Even though they fought that war
with
primarily french supplied Air force, etcetera.
But
now they get, like, a more serious military
commitment. On the part of the Us, you
know, in those in those years. And
this,
military commitment
is is more than just turning a blind
eye to them getting nuclear weapons, which, of
course, was happening with with French and British
and and into some next Us support in
those years in South African, of course, support.
It goes beyond that, you know, by the
by the post 67 period,
we enter into a new terrain where they're
just arming them to the teeth.
And they're providing
much bigger aid.
That increases after 73 even more.
And and and Kissing plays a big role
on this. You know, He strides this idea
that that Israel always has to be better
armed at the entire region combined. Swine this
idea that that Israel is the core of
the cold war policy in in in this
part of the world. But at the same
time, it's careful to present it
in in in very short terms.
This is this is not a somebody
will come out and tell you... Well, I'm
Ardent and Zion is, therefore, this has to
happen.
And, of course, you use the author of
of several books.
You will not find a race of an
of,
the declaration of his ideological commitment. What you
will find is carefully crafted arguments.
That suggests that,
for example, this is a a conflict from
time in Memorial. Here's the Arab case here
it's really case the Us interest, but always
Us interest and up somehow
being prop up the Israelis marginal the Palestinians.
And essentially,
creating conditions
where the, arab states exit,
any form of an orbit that is designed
to support the palestinian in cause.
That was the fifteenth episode of Fa,
the Dig series on twentieth century Arab politics
with Abdul Ras.
Who teaches history at Rice University.
A scholar of Era in Palestinian
revolutionary movements. He's the author of Monsoon
revolution,
Republicans, Sultan and empires in Oman,
and the coa of, the Palestinian
Revolution Digital Humanity's website, an incredible resource that
is now back online.
Check it out. There's a link in the
show notes. It's really, really something.
Thank you for listening to the dig. From
Jacob Magazine.
As Marx once said, after noting that,
revolutions are the locomotives of history.
While other podcasts have only interpreted the world
in various ways. Our point is to change
it. We're posting new episodes every week. The
Dick is produced by Alex Sal lewis. Our
associate producer is Jackson Roach, music by Jeffrey
Bro.
Our communications coordinator is Sylvia At. Our senior
advisors are Ph franco and bed may be.
Check out our vast
archives and newsletters at the dig radio dot
com, follow us on Twitter and also Instagram
at the dig radio.
And please.
Find us wherever you get podcasts and subscribe
to this podcast.
If it's on itunes or Spotify
or wherever,
please leave us a nice review. Those ratings
and reviews help introduce us to listeners. But
what really does that is you telling people
ir r l or online, wherever
to check out the pod.
Please make propaganda for us and do find
us at petri patreon dot com. Make a
monthly or annual
contribution to keep this operation up and running
strong.
Even a few bucks is huge.