Welcome to the creative Pen podcast.
I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur.
Bringing you interviews inspiration and information on writing
craft and creative business.
You can find the episode show notes, your
free author blueprint and lots more at the
creative pen dot com, and that's Penn with
a double n.
And here's the show. Hello creative.
I'm Joanna Pen. And this is episode number
761
of the podcast,
and it is Saturday, the thirteenth of July
20 24 as I record this. So first
up, my voice is a little strange as
I am on the tail end of Covid,
which is going around right now here in
the Uk. And for the first time in
ages, I debated whether I should just use
an Ai voice clone, which of course are
very good. But I am doubling down on
being human
instead because humans get Covid,
not Ai clones and, yeah. Just that the
show must on as such. No seriously. It's
been a week now. I've had it, and
I'm definitely
getting much better. Now luckily, I recorded this
interview a few weeks ago.
So in today's show, I'm talking to Kim
York about intuitive discovery writing and serial fiction.
We talk about leaning into your intuition and
curiosity
trusting the creative process, different methods for discovery
writing, the joy of sync
or the penny drop moment
as well as business models for multi passionate
authors, serial fiction, fan fiction, and more.
So that's coming up in the interview.
So in publishing things,
Book vault now has integration with Pay hip
So if you want to sell direct, but
you don't want to go as far as
Shopify or Woo commerce, then you can start
with pay it. Which takes away a lot
of the e commerce paying for you as
they, for example, they handle Eu digital vat.
So it's a good place to start if
you want to sell direct, but you don't
want to go into the full e ecommerce
store experience, and I use Pay hip for
many years. In fact, before I moved to
Shopify
because I wanted to, use a lot more
of the integrations and have a bigger e
commerce platform.
Also, Sasha Black shares her 7 lessons learned
from 5 years writing full time on the
rebel author podcast.
It is a great episode, well worth listening
to. As Sasha has been through the ringer
in all the best ways in the last
year. And she honestly shares the challenges of
rapid growth in sales and revenue and platform
based on tiktok success. And also selling direct
through Shopify and Kickstarter,
and how she is having to change her
business processes to adapt to the growth.
Now this is such a good lesson because
it's something to keep in mind.
You do have to have a different kind
of business if you want to make 6
figures a year. And it needs to be
different again if you want to keep scaling.
You have to look at your processes and
you have to get help.
You also have to manage your boundaries more
carefully.
Sasha also talks about the psychology of money,
which is so important.
And this is something I've been pretty obsessed
with for many years now. And remember, as
you make more, you have to invest for
the future. You cannot assume that the success
will keep coming. The line on the graph
does not go up and to the right
forever. There are periods where it goes up
into the right and then it might drop
or it goes in waves. And Sasha talks
about facing up to learning about this.
Now I've talked about this in multiple episodes,
and you can find my book recommendations at
the creative penn dot com forward slash money
books And if you want to start with
1, then the psychology of money by Morgan
H is a good 1. But definitely go
listen to that episode from Sasha,
and if you want my lessons learned, which
I've shared every year for well since 20
11, then go to the creative pin dot
com forward slash timeline.
Also, on the self publishing advice podcast, or
Ross and I, share lots of tips around
crowd funding and Kickstarter.
Specifically talking about aspects of
participation, profit and payment.
How to design your campaign to make sure
you fund and make money how to involve
your audience and much more. So that's on
the self publishing advice podcast.
So in personal news, I was at the
do lectures in West Wales, the week before
last, which is a different kind of conference
or really festival
I guess for creative business people who want
to make a change in the world, in
themselves in their careers.
And I was attending not speaking, and it
was not my usual community, so I went
with an open mind. And I'm still processing
what I thought about there, some of the
things I was discussing with people I don't
have any lessons immediately,
but I'm sure I will have some at
some point. It's just my brain is not
what it usually is.
Because I also brought Home Covid, and it
definitely went around the festival. There is a
new wave going around the Uk at the
moment which everyone seems to be getting. Even
people who didn't get it last time. So
the variant is called fl.
Believe it or not. You can Google that.
Flirt variant. So I've been sick all week
as I mentioned on the men now.
Yeah. So 1 thing I learned from Covid
last time when I had it back in
20 21,
was that rest is critical, and you might
think you're better, and then you're not. So
I hope be going back to bed. I've
cleared my schedule and I'm just focusing on
getting better. So if Covid comes for you
again then rest up indeed. And it's another
time when I'm grateful for this career because
I can clear my schedule. I mean, realistically,
I can just move things around, and I
am getting better at doing that. Thanks for
your emails and comments and lots of photos
this week some really good ones. Janet said
I'm in my Camper van in the French
alps. Here I am in my office.
And it is seriously a gorgeous picture of
Janet with a coffee pot looking out over
the mountains in the sun, really beautiful picture,
Janet. Thank you.
Vince said listening to you as I clean
the garage going through my late parents papers
and my wife's Christmas storage, lots of boxes.
Christine,
lovely, smiley picture, great purple hair, Christine,
and books in the background, listening while cleaning
our airbnb,
You can see some of my books on
the living room wall behind me. I offer
them for sale to guests. I manage a
few hundred dollars in sales each year this
way.
Bill sent a video of hurricane
barrel. I have the good fortune to live
in Houston area where we just had the
first hurricane
hurricane barrel blasting through. The view is from
my backdoor door out to a eye yard
with the pool in the rain and the
wind very cool. I guess I should say
not very cool. I hope everyone
is okay for a hurricane.
And Tiffany,
left a comment on Aurora Winters article.
I really enjoyed the episode. The discussion about
whether you'd want someone to carry on your
work after your death, and Aurora thoughts on
grief and using writing through that.
When my teenage son died 3 years ago,
comp campaigning and editing the writing he left
behind is saving my life.
1 of his last wishes was for me
to publish his writing on his behalf. It's
my way of honoring him.
Inadvertently working on his writing
also gave me the courage to start taking
my own writing more seriously,
which is how through a series of accidents,
I ended up here, listening to your podcast.
When our books are ready to be published,
I feel much more equipped.
Thank you. Tiffany. I really
appreciate you sharing that comment,
and what a great way to honor your
son and also yourself with those books. So
thank you for sharing.
Right? So you can leave a comment on
the podcast show notes at the creative pen
dot com or on the Youtube channel or
message me on x at the creative pen
or email me, send me pictures of where
you're listening. Joanna at the creative penn dot
com. I love to hear from you. It
makes this more of a conversation. So this
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Right? Let's get into the interview.
Kim boo York is the author of Romance
fantasy and non fiction. As well as a
productivity coach and a podcast broadcaster at the
author A mist and around the writers table.
Her latest book for authors is by the
seat of your pants, secrets of discovery writing.
So welcome Kim, Thank you so much, Joanna.
You know I am thrilled to be here.
So I'm very excited.
How good. So first up, tell us a
bit more about you. And how you got
into writing and publishing. I'm 1 if those
bog standard, you know, I wanted to write
it be a storyteller since I was a
kid.
I loved reading as a kid. I loved
be telling stories. I think I got into
fan fiction when I was, like,
10 years old, which was, like, after the
original Star Wars, we're talking the seventies because
I'm old Joanna, so this was a long
time ago.
In the modern era, let's say, I got
back
into writing a original fiction. Again through fan
fiction. I I came into fan fiction during
a very rough time of my life in
about 2007 2008.
I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot.
And doing that got me back into the
habit. Of writing regularly,
which I had given up on it throughout
the nineties, because I just kinda decided nobody
was ever gonna publish what I wrote and
that publishing industry was just too,
you know, too hide bound didn't want people
like me. Eventually, some friends of mine got
published got their original fiction published, and they
were like, you could do it 2. And
so I did eventually get published by a
small indie publisher.
In 2011.
I eventually went totally independent self published later.
I got the rights back to my books
and rep published them. And kinda just been
rolling on ever since in in early 20
23.
I really rejuvenate
my author career. I I realized the way
things were going
as you and I talked about before, the
recording started,
serial fiction is a huge
growth area right now. And because of my
experiences in fan fiction, I love the serial
format. So that really just got me back
into the game. And so I just... That's
where I am right now and
trying to make it all work, you know,
juggling a your plates.
Yeah. Okay. Well, we're gonna come back to
the cereal side because I definitely wanna talk
about that. But I do just wanna
mention the fan fiction. I feel like this
is something
that doesn't get talked about very much. But
given that you did quite a lot of
it,
before writing your own stuff. Just remind people,
what is the legal
aspect
of fan
fiction in terms of can people publish
what they write in fan fiction worlds.
So the the the straight legal answer is,
no. You can't make money off of fan
fiction. And there's a lot of people who
were doing gray areas in that, I do
not recommend it. Fan fiction is a hobby.
Fan fiction is a pastime. There's been
some legal contest of it. I'm in the
Us. So that's where the the copyright laws
I'm familiar with differs by country as you
will know, Joanna.
But no. You can't make money off of
eviction. It's a hobby. That said, there's lots
of places where you can
share your fan fiction. There's archive of our
own click known as A03,
which is basically repository where people can post
their fan fiction that they're working on. And
that is huge. I think that's like the
third biggest site in the world right now.
It's massive. And so there's a lot of
community there. Which I think is the most
valuable aspect of fan fiction. In fact, I
am now working on a book called out
from fan fiction, which chronicles my own journey
and also gives people advice on how to
morph from writing fan fiction to original fiction
because they're not the same, but fan fiction
can be a great learning ground for you
if that's your passion.
I think that's that's great and really important
to say. And good for us to remember
too as we create our own original characters.
Mh. It's like you kinda wanna encourage people
to love characters enough to write about them,
but not publish books about them. So... Yeah.
Yeah. I'd be really interested in that book
when it comes out because I feel like
a lot of people get started there. But
let's get into the current book on discovery
discovery writing. So let's
define that. What is discovery writing and how
does it differ from plotting or outlining. So
a lot of times people describe discovery writing
as the absence of, like, you were not
using
add outline. You were not using a summary.
You were not planning it out ahead of
time.
I find discovery writing in a more positive
description is that you're leaning into your curiosity.
So you're not deciding ahead of time what
happens to your character
specifically.
You might know that your character going on,
like, a trip. They're a pirate, and they're
gonna go, you know, p around the caribbean.
But you don't know specifically like, where they're
gonna go or how they're gonna get there
and what they're gonna encounter along the way.
Because you don't know and that excites you
as a writer. And so you get into
it because you're like, I wanna know what
happens next.
And so that same rush that a lot
of people get when they're reading a story
is, I think foundational aspect of being using
discovery writing.
As a
technique, and that's 1 of the things I
really push in my book. As a discovery
writing is a technique. It is a technique
you use
outlining,
using story beats without any of those things.
It's a technique that you can hone and
improve upon over time by practicing it. So
that's kind of a short
version of what I think, discovery writing is
and how it can be useful to riders.
I love this. And I do think your
book is fantastic as a discovery you're writer.
Well, I wrote... As I was saying, you
know, I wrote a chapter on this in
my house to write a normal book, but
you've got a whole book on it. But
first, it was funny because I was, how
has she done a whole book on this.
But as you've said, you actually do go
through various sort of levels of techniques and
all that. But I do wanna come back
to this positive choice.
As in... It's not like the thing that's
left over if you don't do plotting. And
I feel like almost that's the same as
being an Indie author.
So many people have this sort of oh,
I can't get traditionally published so I will
self publish. But in the in the same
way, this is like a positive choice for
a career, this is a positive
choice. Well, although I say that, I off
I often feel like I have tried to
plot, but it just is not me. So
perhaps is there something more innate almost about
this
discovery writer side?
I think there is. And in some way,
like, sure to we both know people who
do outlines. Some people do, like, 1 sentence
outline for each chapter. Some people have 30
page
outline treatments. Right? And that's per author. That's
how their brain works.
I did work in disability services and higher
education for about 10 years. 1 of the
most valuable things I took away from that
experience working with people
and students in the college environment was everybody's
brain works differently.
So I do think that there is a
certain level of
inclination for people like us that that is
how our brain works. We need that
dopamine serotonin Rush of curiosity
to get us into the story.
I hear a lot of writers, and it
was certainly my experience as well that when
they wrote an outline,
and it was a great outline for a
great story.
Their brain kind of felt like it, you
know, they could write the story because they
had already thought that it was written, like,
it was already over. There was nothing left.
And I could... I've tried... Like you, I've
tried using outlines. And every time I do,
either don't write the story at all because
I'm just like, well, that's done, or I
try to write it according to the outline
and then go off script completely because
my curiosity takes me in a different direction.
So I think there is a certain level
of inclination there. But again, you know, I
have used outlining in reverse outlining. So outlining
is a tool that I use. It's a
technique that has been helpful for me in
writing my books, but I am more inclined
to discovery writing.
Yeah. I agree. It's so interesting, and we're
all different, but actually, you and I are
quite similar it sounds.
Into in terms of our writing, but let
you mentioned the rush before. And I was
thinking about this. This sort of moment of
sync that comes, and you didn't know where
it was gonna happen. But at some point,
the story just, like makes sense, and I
also write out of order, which
it makes it even more of a discovery
process, I guess. It's like I just don't
know how these things are gonna connect, but
at some point something happens, and it does
connect. So I guess this does... And you'd
have a whole section on
intuition.
So how how How do we almost trust
this process? Like, can we learn more skills
or do we just have to trust that
we're gonna make it? So the answer to
that question is yes. Because you do have
to lean into trusting the process, which I
think is the hardest part. And for all
writers. Right? That's trust sitting down and doing
the writing and trusting the words are gonna
come.
That is an important part of it. I
do think that honing that skill is
something that you can actively work on in
practice.
It is
not something you can... Like, as much as
I want people to read my book, my
book can help you, but it's not going
to write your books for you. Right? So
that's that's that's the catch 22 we're always
in.
I think that
you can. And just... I know, Becca, Yeah,
like, you've talked to her before. And and
if anybody has not read her book on
intuition. I do highly recommend it.
Because
intuition is something that you can build
on and improve and create a foundation of
understanding that works with your discovery writing
instincts
to help you write
better off the mark.
There's nothing that can't be fixed in editing
as they say. But the more you practice
discovery writing consciously as a technique, and the
more you build up your intuition by
practice studying your craft and fixing problems and
talking with other writers and then getting critiques
and editing,
the stronger your discovery writing will be to
the point where you can talk about somebody
like Dean Wesley Smith, who's famous for his
discovery writing,
hit pants whatever you wanna call it writing
into the dark what he calls it. He
can write it down and write a story,
short story, like, front to back without much
editing at all because he's just been doing
it for so long. So I do think
it is skill you can build up. But,
you know, the bad news is you have
to do it by actually writing.
That's do it.
Oh, the good news because that's a fun.
That's
true. Yeah.
You mentioned Dean wesley smith there. I love
Dean. He's been a mentor for me for
many years. But it's funny. I still disagree
with him on editing, so he kind of
says you don't need an editing you just
need like, a proof reader, but I vote
only in inverted commas written like between 40
and 50 books now. And Dean's are written
like 400
books over the last 4 decades. So I
feel like there are weight tools as you
say, editing is a is a tool really
to improve our work. But let's just go
back to the beginning. You and I know
what we mean by this. But you talk
about practicing it as a technique. So just
explain like someone is staring at the blank
page, how do they
discover write? 1 of the easiest ways to
do it is just to ask yourself and
then and then what what next? It's very
improvisation in nature. And so if you know
anything about theater
improvisation. The big thing for them is yes
and. And my version of that is
what next? So you're sitting there. You have
a character in mind and they're there at
a coffee house,
sitting down, drinking tea, and, like, you know
there's gotta be some kind of either a
meat cute or inc incident like you know
that.
But what is it? What it... What is
gonna be?
So you sit there and think, well, what
next? What would be the most dramatic thing
that could happen? Oh, well, maybe a dragon
falls through the roof or
maybe the the tea shop gets held up
at gunpoint, or maybe somebody sits down and
says, here's the secret you know, code that
we talked about earlier and you're like, we
didn't... Your character doesn't know what's going on.
So asking
yourself, trying to
charge up that creativity
and lean into it rather than saying, okay.
So now this person has to have this...
And this is what has to happen an
action. Just just ask yourself. What what could
happen next? What might happen next?
Lean into that
and then right
And yeah sometimes you're gonna end up going
back and saying no, that wasn't what happened
next then something else needs to happen. But
you're not gonna know that until you start
the writing process. So I think leaning into
the curiosity by asking yourself, what next? What's
most dramatic thing that could happen next? What's
the saddest thing that could happen next? What's
the happiest, most joyous thing that could happen
next. Just
kick those gears into motion? I think it's
they're the easiest way to go about it.
Yeah. And this is interesting to too you
because I feel like
our author voice.
Is is related quite a lot to our
sense of curiosity and who we are. So
you mentioned a dragon there falling down from
above or whatever. That is never ever ever
going to happen in 1 of my books
as J 10 because I don't do dragons.
What's more likely is, you know, the character
is gonna fall through the floor into equipped
full of bones
underneath. Like, that's literally what like, Yeah. There
you go. And there's an idea and that
only kind of came to me the the
person in the cafe. Now I wondered and
I haven't prepped you with this question, but,
in my head, I see.
So I see that person in the cafe
and I see them falling into the crypt
and I can see the crypt like, I
could physically describe that for you because I...
I'm a very visual person.
How is that for you? Because I feel
like I hear from some people
they hear voices so they hear dialogue. I
never ever ever hear dialogue.
And I struggle with dialogue, but I'm... I
think I'm pretty good at the visual description.
So talk a bit about that and how
these choices we make creatively are based on
our voice and how are, I guess, how
our brains work. That is such a great
observation that you that you made about, like,
for me, Dragon falling through the roof would
totally be what happens. Whereas for you, it's...
They fall down into a crypt. And, like,
I would never fall them and I've... That
falling into a crypt, what? I would never
do that. So
our experience and what interests us is what
comes to the fore when we start leaning
into that curiosity.
I do find it interesting because I am
too very visual, but I'm also audio. I
do... Like, when I write
to me, and I know there are some
writers out there like this. I'm watching a
movie
with audio. It's not just the scene. So
I'm very good at dialogue and sadly, not
quite as good as descriptions, which just ironic
because I can't see it in my head.
But for me, it's very much
watching a scene unfold, and then, like, being
in the movie theater in the dark and
eating popcorn and seeing what's it's gonna happen
next.
I do know that there are some discovery
writers who don't have that kind of visual
queue, but they usually do have as you
said audio cues. They're layer listening to something,
the characters talking
or they just have an idea that, like,
springboard
into words on the page,
it's it's very unique for each author. And
I think that forms
your author voice.
And
builds upon your intuition because
what you know works for you and what
works for you as a reader is what
will come into play as a discovery writer,
Somebody is using discovery writing as a technique.
And we should acknowledge that some people do
not see anything. That's several people on the
show who have no mind's eye as such.
And there's nothing wrong with anyone. However, you
are experiencing the world is
is up to you. And I think what's
fascinating as writers is what what we see
as the end product. You would have absolutely
no clue
how that got from the person's head to
the pay... The finished product.
It doesn't matter how... It doesn't matter if
you're a discovery writer or a plot or
you dictate or you, whatever you do. It
literally doesn't matter that that it it's going
to be the same in in the future.
So let's just come back to... Oh, I
guess, The other thing I was gonna mention
was layering or smith user's circling. And I
think I kind of circle, so for example,
I will circle back and add
dialogue.
Right. In my sort of
even while I'm writing the scene, it'll be,
like, okay. Right right right. Right. All the
stuff I can see. And then, oh, yeah.
I guess. I better put go right and
put some dialogue in if there's 2 characters
or some
emotion. I definitely have to go back and
add emotion. So how do you do this?
How do you add these layers?
So 1 of... A couple of things I
talk about in my book is techniques or
approaches rather to discovery writing. There's the recur
style, which is what you're talking about with
circling. So you're laying something down, and then
we... Recur go back you reread it, you
add elements to it as you go along.
Sometimes
for me, I get far enough into a
story. When I go back,
I realized that something that I put in
there earlier actually is very important for this
later scene. So my brain is laying down
those layers as I go, sometimes without me
even
knowing it. There's also the bridging technique, which
I think is something you use as well.
I don't use it as much, because I
I do write out of order a little
bit sometimes, but it's not a mains stay
for me as a technique. But you do
bridging. You have these out of order scenes
and then you bridge between them and the
creativity in the curiosity
comes into play for people who use that
technique
by wondering how they're gonna get from 1
thing to another because it may seem like
those 2 points are so disparate. They can
never be connected. But you know they can.
And so you're curious yourself in building those,
you know, weaving all those images together to
create
a story. So a lot depends on
what you're comfortable in writing and how you
lay down those things, the more experience you
get. I think a lot of times your
subconscious is more engaged
and layering down things for you. But the
recur of
discovery writing is a feature, not a bug.
That's 1 thing I I tried to try
to tell people, it's, like, going back and
reading what you've already read or going back
and adding things to what you've already written
is you building up
the foundations to continue with the creativity and
the curiosity.
Because you may even go back and lay
down things that you're not real sure you
have an answer to yet. That's where the
trust comes in because you've gotta be able
to trust you're intuition in your instincts as
discovery writer to know that well, either I'll
come back and cut that out or that
is something that I will come back to
for some reason that I don't even know
yet.
Yeah. Oh, that's happened so a lot. But
I think the other thing for me is
my first
self edit is very important in that.
I
know
that there may... Well, there will be some
problems, and that first draft, which I print
out and I do it by hand. There's
often a lot of arrows or move this
to a, move b to c and because
I write out all of that that actually
happens quite a lot. And it's like, oh,
I need to write another thing here or
what why is this here? You know, so
there's a lot of moving things around and
restructuring. But to me, that's part of my
process. Yeah. And again, it doesn't mean it's
wrong. It's just the way I do it.
So how do your edits
sort of go into it? Are you cleaner
in the edit like Dean or how do
you do that? I'm a little bit cleaner
in the edit, but that's because I'm a
heavy recur writer So I go back and
I will re reread
2 chapters
behind
before I even start writing.
So I do a lot of on the
road editing
in a way. When I finally get to
the end,
I rarely have to move scenes around.
I usually
hit my problems.
I I would say the 2 thirds mark
is where I always end up with problems.
Like, I just... That's where things start collapsing
it on themselves, and I have to do
a full edit of everything I've written so
far. So I'm doing a lot of editing
as I go. Which is funny to me
because, like, people people like you were like,
this is my third draft, and I'm just,
like, this is my first draft of the
book, but it's like the 40 fifth draft
of this particular scene. So as a as
a recur writer, I do a lot of
editing as I go. That's true for all
Chris writers as you point out adriana everybody's
process is valid.
That's just how I... My brain works. I
need to have the back end pretty well
structured in order for me to keep going
forward
into the unknown. Yeah. And actually, earlier, you
mentioned reverse outlining which I also do. And
I also like you probably around 50 percent.
I sometimes just lose the plot entirely, and,
I have to Yeah. And at that point,
I will reverse outline just I'll just write
the chapters in a few lines as to
what the hell happening. But I do often
have to reread the whole thing at around
50 sense. So I guess in a way
that's almost where you are, but I'm... I
don't do much, and then I suddenly have
to do a bunch of it and then,
like, the pe the penny drops and then
I know how to move on. So again,
I think that's quite a normal part of
the process isn't it.
It is. And I I love your thing
the the phrase that used the penny drops
with so many discovery writers I talked to.
There always does seem to be that moment
somewhere along the process where the penny drops.
Where it all just poop comes together, and
they real mess upon. I know the fun
bit. That's that's the part I live for.
I'm like, oh, now. I get it. And
sometimes it's frustrating because I'm not there yet.
And I'm like, I know the nobody's gonna
drop at some point, Darn it, but I'm
not there yet.
Yeah.
And I I love that you have that
too, and that I call that kind of
that sync, what Carl Jung calls sync. And
Yeah. And that is the moment when you
realize your intuition has been right all along
and that you were gonna get there. And
probably that's the biggest lesson for people listening
is,
I mean, it takes time to trust this.
I think it was only when I wrote
that, but, in fact, probably only when Becca
wrote that book on intuition that I finally
accepted.
My writing process like, probably over a decade
of trying to deny my process. How about
you? Same.
Exactly the same. Joanna, And that's 1 of
the reasons I wrote this look. I was
talking to a good friend of mine, Gina
Hogan and Edwards. She's a historical fiction writer,
and we were talking about process, and she's
very into outlining.
And I just... I encouraged her to use
discovery writing techniques,
and it really opened up her writing in
a lot of ways.
I wanted to be able to take away
that stigma. I wanted to be able to
say, look, this is just another technique. This
isn't bad.
You aren't a bad writer. You're in a
terrible person for not having it outline at
the Starlight pre planning and just because it
did take me so long. And I felt
so broken. I would write those outlines, and
then I wouldn't be able to write the
story. And that's just a terrible feeling. For
anybody who's gone through that, I totally get
that, and it did take me a long
time and coming back to fan fiction
1 of the breakthroughs for me was
when I was looking at my fan fiction.
At some point, I... This was
you know, 2018,
19 20. I don't remember exactly when. But
I realized that most of the fiction I
wrote certainly the most popular stories I written
in infant fiction. Were all
written by the seat of the pants. And
I started realizing maybe this is my technique.
Maybe this is how I can get back
to writing
as a professional author who enjoys my work
and enjoys the stories that I'm writing. Is
that the penny drop moment. I was just,
like, oh, I'm already doing this. Maybe I
should apply this to my own original fiction
and see what happens. End
And it worked took a while. Yeah. The.
As as we're talking, I am wondering if
the reason plotting is considered so much more
acceptable.
Is that when you submit to a publisher
or an agent, you generally submit 3 chapters
and an outline.
Of a book. And or if you already
have a traditional deal, they want for the
next book, they'll want an outline
and it's so funny. I talked to someone
the other day about this, and she was
like, oh, if you're gonna submit you do
this, and I'm like, well I couldn't do
that because I have to finish the book.
Before I could do an outline. So that's
just crazy. So I mean, it it just
struck me as we were talking? What do
you think? Do you think that's why it's
become so much more acceptable. The assumption and
is you will do an outline. I think
that's part of it, but I would go
back further than that. I think that a
lot of times when you look at
people who are teaching creative writing historically
in,
you know, the twentieth century
throughout those years,
Discovery writing tends to be the first thing
that a lot of new writers do. They
have an idea, they sit down, they write
a story.
And
oftentimes it's not a very good story, and
then they go to try to get
education, They try to learn how to do
the craft. And so all these teachers and
educators are looking at these stories and go,
see this is a bad technique. You need
to outline first.
And then you won't have these problems. And
so I think it was like kind of
a problem solving method for a lot of
creative writing teachers to try to get to,
like, really hone in technique onto to newer
writers, and then it just expanded. And, yes.
I think the traditional publishing
wanting those outlines because they're hedging their bets
for them, it's a business. They wanna know
what the next story or what the full
story is before they invest any money in
it. I think it's a lot of these
elements at play.
And as you were saying earlier with Indie
publishing and self publishing, You know, the times
have changed.
The times have changed. And so
now we can talk about these different techniques,
we can say that there are ways that
a person like you, Joanna can make a
whole career writing a lot of books using
this technique and be successful on your own
terms
without having to conform to the way someone
else wants you to present your work. And
that's certainly a privilege for us to be
living in an era when that's true.
Oh, yeah. I literally have not outlined or
plotted any of my books.
Yes. Awesome. I love it. Yes.
And I think it was Rachel hair and
I talked to her about this, and I
I was having a, like, a private conversation.
I was like, oh, why can't I just
change
and she was, like, look,
you've managed to write all these books? Like,
what is even the problem.
Ding ding ding ding exactly. That was kind
of my home moment And I'm like, wait.
Hold on. I've written all these stories
just doing it this. Maybe I can keep
doing it that way. What?
Yeah. Like, you're not broken. So I I
hope that this has really helped people listening.
And of course, it might be interesting to
people who do plot, and we're not saying
anything there's nothing wrong with that either. It's
just people too. I mean, we'll yeah Yeah.
They're okay. It's Like, you know, you you
get you... You can't help yourselves. You just
have to outline. We get it. Yeah. Yeah.
Fair enough. But I do want... While you're
here, I'm also interested in your other book
for authors which is, become an on an
unstoppable storyteller how to craft compelling cereals.
Now I don't read cereals, so I don't
even try to write cereals, but I know
many people are interested. So first up, tell
us, I guess, what is the difference between
a cereal and a series
and just a novel. So the very basic
rule of thumb, and these And I just
wanna start by saying that these are these
categories are very flexible.
You know, these are all modern categories. There's
just so many different ways to tell a
story. But my rule of thumb is that
a cereal
consist of a story with nested
story arts.
Now, you can have a novel series that
has nested story arcs. But generally, a novel
itself has a story arc. It's either
the 3 act structure, the 7 act structure.
Save the cat, the hero's journey. That is
the main structure. The individual character arcs in
a novel will will dip and turn, but
they all adhere to that 1 main story
structure
with
some novel series or an actual, what I
would call a legitimate cereal.
There could be a very long story arc
while there's smaller story arcs within it. And,
of course, the the best example that we
can give for this these days is
television show. Like, you have something, and I'm
just pulling 1 out, like Game of thrones
or or some long running show that has
big story arcs
that go across multiple seasons
even. But then you have the smaller story
arcs that are the monster of the week
or the dragon of the week or the
the the killer of the week whatever that
might be. And those individual story arcs
kind of exists not quite independently, but they
do exist within the larger story arc and
feed into it. But aren't necessarily the same
as larger story. So that's very short and
definitely
incomplete
description of how I would describe cereals. And
why some cereals,
for instance,
1 piece, which is popular right now because
the live action that's a mango that has
over 1000 volumes. Like, these types of stories
can go on. And they're just searching for
the 1 piece. They're searching for a thing.
That's the whole long story arc, but you
have the shorter story arcs that are just
absolutely brilliant
that rest on that longer.
Story arc. So that's my.
What, a lot of people
hear about the success some people are having
on cereal platforms and I get this question
all the time. Should I just post my
chapters on serial platforms
of my... Like, take my finnish novel and
just post to by chapter on a serial
platform, and I generally say no because most
serial ex... I don't know what they call
chapters are not the same as
actual chapters in a book as you say
that that you need to keep people reading
through. Right? Unless you have something. So what
do you think about that Can you take
just any novel and just post it on
a platform for serial writing?
Absolutely, you can. A lot of romance writers
do that. I think I and I use
romance writers because they're certainly the biggest ones
you're taking advantage of that. They treat it
as a funnel to their books.
So when you have a novel and you're
splitting it up and you're posting the chapters,
you're serial utilizing it. It's not a serial,
but it is being serial.
And if if people are comfortable
with that, it's It can be a great
way to funnel readers
into your book
ecosystem
into buying the books. I would stress
1, know your biz... Your know your own
business model,
know your own comfort zone and know your
readers.
Because
serial readers
and book readers don't always overlap. So you
can grab some serial readers with a serial
novel.
And they may not buy the book. You
may get some people who will look at
a cereal ago. I'll wait until it's done
and by the book. And then you're gonna
have some overlap. But I think it's possible.
But again, I really caution people no know
your own business model what you're doing
know your audience is... Are they people who
read cereals at all.
For instance, like the thriller novel,
demographic.
They're not big on cereals.
Not not know all. Yeah. Not at all.
But if you are writing, like, lit Rpg,
or you're running romance, some form of romance?
Yes. You can get a big, big
leadership serial your work. Just be aware of
how that feeds into the whole ecosystem that
you're building for your business.
And so what are the main platforms
for selling cereals.
So there's...
Rh is a new up and coming 1.
I'm on Re. I really like their approach
and like, what they're doing. A lot of
people look at it and see if there's
a lot of romance sauce there, but it
is for all genres, For instance, my friend
Gina that I mentioned. She's actually serial realizing
her historical fiction novel. It's not romance at
all. She's doing that on Rain. So there's
a lot of opportunity there on Rh. But
there are other platforms. Some authors are on
Patreon,
which has its own issues. It's depending on
what you're writing.
Some people self host it, which you can
do these days. Of course, with wordpress, you
can do it on wix. You can do
it on Ka. You can do it on
Squarespace.
There are a lot more options for
writers these days to either self host their
own subscriptions or use other platforms.
To do it. And, there are a lot
of different platforms out there. I will say
this that these days, platforms like Watt pad,
Royal Road, Ink kit. They have their own
specific demographics. Like on Royal Road, it's very
much Fantasy and Lit Rpg. Watt still heavily,
romance oriented. If you're gonna be giving away
free chapters on those platforms,
then look carefully at the demographics.
But there's so many options these days. And
I do go into that in my book,
a coming an unstoppable storyteller or different different
options
for on posting. They're still V and radish,
which are ways to get a money but
it's it's more like the Kindle unlimited model.
Like, you know, people are subscribing and you're
just getting a a piece of the pie
in that model. So it just depends on
what you're tolerance level is for how much
control you have over your property.
Yeah. Definitely read those contracts. And.
When you And when we say contracts people,
we mean the terms of conditions when you
upload a file to a site.
Right It's a contract. Terms of service. Yes.
Absolutely. Yes. Very good. There are some
some difficult ones, let's say. And whenever you
up, like... We're recording
June 20 24. You could go to 1
of these sites now, and it might be
fine, and then you upload another book in
a month, time or it might be different.
So I think it's very important to look
at this. So in terms of, like, you
mentioned the demographics are different,
you write different kinds of books and cereals.
So how are you marketing
cereals differently than you are marketing
books,
So with books, I'm much more focused on...
Now I'm not running a lot of advertisements
right now, but I'm gearing up to do
that for the last half of this year.
As I've put all the pieces. I've been
busy for those last, I think year almost
been putting all the pieces in place for
my own business model. So for books, I'm
going to be using things like Facebook ads.
More. And for instance, the Queen's A Re,
which is a love tri,
fantasy Romance novel.
I did
serial that. And I actually serial it
early access on Rh for paying followers.
I then put much later down the road,
put chapters up for free on W pad
and Ink kit and an archive of our
own.
So people can go read the whole book
for free. But then I will be doing
advertisements for the buying the book itself. And
possibly doing a kick kickstarter down the road
for doing an audio version or a special
bound edition for it. So there's a lot
of different ways I'm trying to funnel people
into my author ecosystem, And I know you've
talked to Joe Sal laurie and and he's,
you know, somebody I really admire
much bigger brain than I have. Would say.
But 1 thing I took away from a
lot of his lessons is,
be aware of all the different ways you
could reach out and reach your audience.
And so I do have a subs stack,
the script, which is my blog.
There, I focus less on the fiction and
more on the non fiction, which is something
else that I write because, you know, non
fiction people aren't gonna be on Rem. So
I know that if I wanna reach other
authors to talk about my books on writing
and my craft books,
B is a bad place for that. I
need to be doing it on my. Victorian
blog. So there's just a lot of moving
parts on something like that, but I think
I would be using
advertising for my
books more than I would be doing for
my cereals
so far.
Cereals as a
popular format,
subscription platforms, particularly are still very new. So
I think there's still a lot of poking
and prodding authors who are using subscription model,
on what kind of advertisement actually works well.
Haven't seen a lot of success on that
yet. So it's still we're relying heavily on
organic growth. Which is not ideal, but we're
figuring it out.
Yeah. Yeah. Because
these are borrow, like, kind of a borrow
model aren't, they were a cereal, like, or
they pay a micro payment or they get
it as part of their,
subscription
So it is kind of a difficult to
get the return on investment with, say, a
Facebook ad. Unless I guess it's a really
long thing or like you say, like, a
book 1 in a series or... But, no.
I think it's so interesting how I call
it the kind of splinter of effect of,
so many platforms for different type of readers
and consumers because you could also do or
audio
cereals, which, I guess, Audio fiction, You know.
So let's just mention podcasting. So you've got
2 podcasts.
How does this fit into your business and
your marketing.
So here's the thing that I think I
get back to talking about knowing your own
business model.
So my business model is not
down. My business not model is not I
write dark romance, and that's all I do.
My business model is me as a person.
Me as a writer and the voice that
I bring to my stories.
I want people to read my stories because
I wrote them, not because they're a love
tri ed fantasy with dragon shifters.
So
For me, it's about a lot about personal
marketing. The author A podcast, I started a
long time ago when I had a completely
different business model But I've morph a little
bit to talk about more about mindset, process
and productivity, which is a new tagline for
it. And because I am a productivity coach,
I talked to a lot of authors and
creative about what it takes to be productive
and what kind of productivity tools you can
use. So I'm focusing more on that on
the author a side. The... Around the writers
table, I'll be honest with you. That's a
fun gig. And that's me with 2 of
my best friends.
We all had great
conversations around writing and creativity.
And so we started that
because we just wanted to share what we
were talking about. So that's this more of
a vanity project really, but III do love
what we've talked about it. I encourage
people to go listen to that because we've
covered some fascinating topics. That 1 doesn't quite
fit into my model so much is to
just
something that's fun and gets my voice out
there. But, yeah, that's that's kind of how
it is. I really think that
I you've heard me mention this a lot
in this conversation about business models. And I
know in 1 of your earlier podcast you
were talking about Spear of destiny
and how
you're doing Kickstarter, and then you're also doing
pre order, and the pre order of course
is available later, people get the starter,
sign up for the Kickstarter gonna get the
book earlier.
But to me that really represents what we're
talking about when we talk about splinter because
That sounds it's like a negative term. To
me, it's like, it's reaching readers where they
are. There's some people who aren't gonna support
your kickstarter. They're just not. There's some people
who are love pre orders, and so they're
gonna go and do the pre order. There's
some people who just want the audiobook. They're
just gonna wait for the audiobook. And so
you of course, have multiple
different versions of audiobooks in different ways People
can access audiobooks.
It's all about reaching people where they are.
So when I look at my business model,
which is selling me as an author and
my voice.
It's less, oh, here's a podcast on the
side, it's
here's something that people can get to know
me. And in fact, I've started doing a
a daily short on Youtube called coffee with
Kim where I just talk about what I'm
gonna be doing that day. And it's just
to get people to know me as a
writer and be interested in me. So that...
But that's my business model, and that's not
the business model for other people. It's pretty
much my business model.
Not everybody. But certainly the 2 people in
this room for virtual room, right? But your
room right now. But I think it's interesting.
I do feel
this is more and more important You know,
I've said many times now doubled down on
being human. Yeah. And kind of pre proving
that you are a human and that you're...
We're all kinda weird in our way and
some people like us, and some people don't
and that's fine. And but that
this constant... I was thinking about my use
of social media the other day, and I
was thinking. Do you know what I am
using social media now more as a proof
that I am human, Mh. Posting photos and
kind of things like that, in a... Much
more than I used to. It used to
be more about, like, marketing or whatever. Now
it's sort of
evidence, more evidence that I'm human. So I
love that coffee with Kim idea. I don't
wanna do it myself, but I think that's
that's really interesting, and I and for people
listening, doing more of that more about you.
Mh. I think is a really good idea.
So we are out of time. Where can
people find you? I know. Where can people
find you and your books and your podcast
online? Also, I do have an online hub,
I call it a hub, but it's a
website. It's house of york dot info, so
that's House of York all 1 word.
Dot INF0.
You'll have links there to all my books.
There's a section on my books. There's a
linked to all my podcast podcasts, and also,
my podcast shows. So any interviews I've done
are on that page as well. And also
to joining up for my online membership club,
for writers called 1000000 words club. It's on
discord, and it's... It's focused more on productivity
and process than craft. So it's a little
bit different, but we have a great group
people there. So you can find out all
about that at house of york dot info.
Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time,
Kim. That was great. It's been wonderful, Joanna.
Thank you so much.
So I hit you found the episode with
Kim interesting. However, you choose to write and
publish. And I want to reiterate her message
towards the end there.
My business model is me as a person,
me as a writer, and the voice I
bring to my stories.
This is exactly what I mean by doubling
down or being human. So have a think
about how you can start to do that
in your author business.
As ever, I love to hear your thoughts.
Please leave a comment on the podcast share
notes at the creative pen dot com or
on the Youtube channel or message me on
x at the creative Pen. Or email me
to Ina at the creative pen dot com
and send me pictures of where you're listening.
Next Monday, we have another craft show. And
I'm talking about writing
emotion into our books with Ro morris. In
the meantime, happy writing
and I'll see you next time. Thanks for
listening today. I hope you found it helpful.
You can find the back
out and show notes at the creative pin
dot com forward slash podcast.
And you can get your free author blueprint
at the creative
dot com forward slash blueprint.
If you'd like to connect, you can find
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j f pen author.
Happy writing, and I'll see you next time.