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Welcome to the creative Pen podcast.

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I'm Joanna Penn, thriller author and creative entrepreneur.

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Bringing you interviews inspiration and information on writing

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craft and creative business.

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You can find the episode show notes, your

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free author blueprint and lots more at the

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creative pen dot com, and that's Penn with

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a double n.

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And here's the show. Hello creative.

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I'm Joanna Pen. And this is episode number

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761

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of the podcast,

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and it is Saturday, the thirteenth of July

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20 24 as I record this. So first

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up, my voice is a little strange as

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I am on the tail end of Covid,

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which is going around right now here in

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the Uk. And for the first time in

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ages, I debated whether I should just use

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an Ai voice clone, which of course are

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very good. But I am doubling down on

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being human

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instead because humans get Covid,

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not Ai clones and, yeah. Just that the

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show must on as such. No seriously. It's

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been a week now. I've had it, and

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I'm definitely

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getting much better. Now luckily, I recorded this

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interview a few weeks ago.

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So in today's show, I'm talking to Kim

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York about intuitive discovery writing and serial fiction.

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We talk about leaning into your intuition and

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curiosity

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trusting the creative process, different methods for discovery

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writing, the joy of sync

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or the penny drop moment

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as well as business models for multi passionate

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authors, serial fiction, fan fiction, and more.

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So that's coming up in the interview.

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So in publishing things,

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Book vault now has integration with Pay hip

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So if you want to sell direct, but

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you don't want to go as far as

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Shopify or Woo commerce, then you can start

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with pay it. Which takes away a lot

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of the e commerce paying for you as

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they, for example, they handle Eu digital vat.

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So it's a good place to start if

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you want to sell direct, but you don't

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want to go into the full e ecommerce

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store experience, and I use Pay hip for

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many years. In fact, before I moved to

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Shopify

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because I wanted to, use a lot more

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of the integrations and have a bigger e

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commerce platform.

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Also, Sasha Black shares her 7 lessons learned

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from 5 years writing full time on the

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rebel author podcast.

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It is a great episode, well worth listening

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to. As Sasha has been through the ringer

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in all the best ways in the last

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year. And she honestly shares the challenges of

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rapid growth in sales and revenue and platform

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based on tiktok success. And also selling direct

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through Shopify and Kickstarter,

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and how she is having to change her

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business processes to adapt to the growth.

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Now this is such a good lesson because

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it's something to keep in mind.

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You do have to have a different kind

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of business if you want to make 6

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figures a year. And it needs to be

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different again if you want to keep scaling.

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You have to look at your processes and

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you have to get help.

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You also have to manage your boundaries more

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carefully.

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Sasha also talks about the psychology of money,

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which is so important.

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And this is something I've been pretty obsessed

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with for many years now. And remember, as

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you make more, you have to invest for

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the future. You cannot assume that the success

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will keep coming. The line on the graph

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does not go up and to the right

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forever. There are periods where it goes up

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into the right and then it might drop

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or it goes in waves. And Sasha talks

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about facing up to learning about this.

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Now I've talked about this in multiple episodes,

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and you can find my book recommendations at

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the creative penn dot com forward slash money

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books And if you want to start with

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1, then the psychology of money by Morgan

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H is a good 1. But definitely go

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listen to that episode from Sasha,

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and if you want my lessons learned, which

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I've shared every year for well since 20

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11, then go to the creative pin dot

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com forward slash timeline.

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Also, on the self publishing advice podcast, or

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Ross and I, share lots of tips around

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crowd funding and Kickstarter.

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Specifically talking about aspects of

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participation, profit and payment.

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How to design your campaign to make sure

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you fund and make money how to involve

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your audience and much more. So that's on

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the self publishing advice podcast.

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So in personal news, I was at the

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do lectures in West Wales, the week before

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last, which is a different kind of conference

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or really festival

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I guess for creative business people who want

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to make a change in the world, in

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themselves in their careers.

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And I was attending not speaking, and it

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was not my usual community, so I went

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with an open mind. And I'm still processing

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what I thought about there, some of the

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things I was discussing with people I don't

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have any lessons immediately,

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but I'm sure I will have some at

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some point. It's just my brain is not

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what it usually is.

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Because I also brought Home Covid, and it

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definitely went around the festival. There is a

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new wave going around the Uk at the

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moment which everyone seems to be getting. Even

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people who didn't get it last time. So

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the variant is called fl.

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Believe it or not. You can Google that.

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Flirt variant. So I've been sick all week

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as I mentioned on the men now.

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Yeah. So 1 thing I learned from Covid

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last time when I had it back in

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20 21,

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was that rest is critical, and you might

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think you're better, and then you're not. So

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I hope be going back to bed. I've

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cleared my schedule and I'm just focusing on

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getting better. So if Covid comes for you

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again then rest up indeed. And it's another

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time when I'm grateful for this career because

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I can clear my schedule. I mean, realistically,

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I can just move things around, and I

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am getting better at doing that. Thanks for

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your emails and comments and lots of photos

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this week some really good ones. Janet said

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I'm in my Camper van in the French

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alps. Here I am in my office.

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And it is seriously a gorgeous picture of

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Janet with a coffee pot looking out over

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the mountains in the sun, really beautiful picture,

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Janet. Thank you.

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Vince said listening to you as I clean

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the garage going through my late parents papers

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and my wife's Christmas storage, lots of boxes.

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Christine,

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lovely, smiley picture, great purple hair, Christine,

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and books in the background, listening while cleaning

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our airbnb,

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You can see some of my books on

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the living room wall behind me. I offer

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them for sale to guests. I manage a

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few hundred dollars in sales each year this

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way.

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Bill sent a video of hurricane

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barrel. I have the good fortune to live

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in Houston area where we just had the

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first hurricane

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hurricane barrel blasting through. The view is from

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my backdoor door out to a eye yard

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with the pool in the rain and the

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wind very cool. I guess I should say

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not very cool. I hope everyone

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is okay for a hurricane.

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And Tiffany,

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left a comment on Aurora Winters article.

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I really enjoyed the episode. The discussion about

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whether you'd want someone to carry on your

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work after your death, and Aurora thoughts on

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grief and using writing through that.

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When my teenage son died 3 years ago,

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comp campaigning and editing the writing he left

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behind is saving my life.

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1 of his last wishes was for me

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to publish his writing on his behalf. It's

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my way of honoring him.

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Inadvertently working on his writing

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also gave me the courage to start taking

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my own writing more seriously,

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which is how through a series of accidents,

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I ended up here, listening to your podcast.

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When our books are ready to be published,

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I feel much more equipped.

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Thank you. Tiffany. I really

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appreciate you sharing that comment,

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and what a great way to honor your

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son and also yourself with those books. So

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thank you for sharing.

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Right? So you can leave a comment on

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the podcast show notes at the creative pen

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dot com or on the Youtube channel or

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message me on x at the creative pen

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or email me, send me pictures of where

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you're listening. Joanna at the creative penn dot

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com. I love to hear from you. It

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makes this more of a conversation. So this

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episode is sponsored by Cob writing life. Cob

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free fast and easy self publishing platform,

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which I've been using for over a decade.

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A my cob map now shows I've sold

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books in a hundred and 80 countries, which

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is pretty exciting, and yes, that is all

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in English.

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Cob writing life was built by authors 4

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authors.

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And their team of dedicated lovers is always

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working hard to help you reach new readers

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Cob author first approach is why they built

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a promotions tool for you to easily and

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There are lots of promotional opportunities for you

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often say every couple of weeks I go

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in and apply for every single thing I

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possibly can.

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The promotional offerings are updated offering, so make

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sure you're regularly taking a look. And if

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tell your readers all about it.

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If you're a kw author and don't yet

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have access to the promotions tool,

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email the team at writing life at cob

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dot com and they'll enable this for you.

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If you want to learn more about Kw,

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available wherever you're listening to this show, and

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find them on social, you can create your

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free account today at cob dot com forward

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slash writing life. This type of corporate

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sponsorship pace for the hosting

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transcription and editing, but my time in creating

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the show sponsored by my community.

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At patreon dot com slash creative pen.

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Thanks to the 13 new patrons you've joined

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this week, and thanks to everyone who's been

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supporting for months and years. If you join

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the community, you get access to all my

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back videos and audio, covering creativity,

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Ai, mindset, business, book marketing, and more and

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self publishing.

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And my patreon patron only q and a

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solo podcast episode, which are like a solo

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show a month. Last week, I put out

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some videos on reaching readers building connection and

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community with lots of tips on book marketing.

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The Patreon is a monthly

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subscription. The equivalent of a black coffee a

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month or a couple of coffees if you're

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feeling generous.

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You get access to everything, all of the

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back content and q and a's. So if

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you get value from the show and you

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want more Come on over and join us

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at patreon dot com, PATRE0N

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dot com forward slash the creative pen.

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Right? Let's get into the interview.

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Kim boo York is the author of Romance

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fantasy and non fiction. As well as a

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productivity coach and a podcast broadcaster at the

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author A mist and around the writers table.

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Her latest book for authors is by the

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seat of your pants, secrets of discovery writing.

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00:11:14,283 --> 00:11:16,846
So welcome Kim, Thank you so much, Joanna.

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You know I am thrilled to be here.

283
00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:20,027
So I'm very excited.

284
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How good. So first up, tell us a

285
00:11:22,492 --> 00:11:24,651
bit more about you. And how you got

286
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into writing and publishing. I'm 1 if those

287
00:11:27,188 --> 00:11:29,171
bog standard, you know, I wanted to write

288
00:11:29,171 --> 00:11:30,995
it be a storyteller since I was a

289
00:11:30,995 --> 00:11:31,233
kid.

290
00:11:31,964 --> 00:11:34,299
I loved reading as a kid. I loved

291
00:11:34,837 --> 00:11:37,231
be telling stories. I think I got into

292
00:11:37,231 --> 00:11:39,545
fan fiction when I was, like,

293
00:11:40,278 --> 00:11:42,832
10 years old, which was, like, after the

294
00:11:42,832 --> 00:11:44,748
original Star Wars, we're talking the seventies because

295
00:11:44,827 --> 00:11:46,503
I'm old Joanna, so this was a long

296
00:11:46,503 --> 00:11:46,902
time ago.

297
00:11:48,355 --> 00:11:51,394
In the modern era, let's say, I got

298
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back

299
00:11:52,274 --> 00:11:55,075
into writing a original fiction. Again through fan

300
00:11:55,075 --> 00:11:57,570
fiction. I I came into fan fiction during

301
00:11:57,570 --> 00:11:59,330
a very rough time of my life in

302
00:11:59,330 --> 00:12:00,929
about 2007 2008.

303
00:12:01,490 --> 00:12:03,649
I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot.

304
00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:06,050
And doing that got me back into the

305
00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:07,679
habit. Of writing regularly,

306
00:12:08,291 --> 00:12:09,958
which I had given up on it throughout

307
00:12:09,958 --> 00:12:12,181
the nineties, because I just kinda decided nobody

308
00:12:12,181 --> 00:12:14,245
was ever gonna publish what I wrote and

309
00:12:14,245 --> 00:12:16,827
that publishing industry was just too,

310
00:12:17,522 --> 00:12:20,231
you know, too hide bound didn't want people

311
00:12:20,231 --> 00:12:22,541
like me. Eventually, some friends of mine got

312
00:12:22,541 --> 00:12:24,940
published got their original fiction published, and they

313
00:12:24,940 --> 00:12:26,766
were like, you could do it 2. And

314
00:12:26,766 --> 00:12:29,387
so I did eventually get published by a

315
00:12:29,387 --> 00:12:30,601
small indie publisher.

316
00:12:31,309 --> 00:12:32,668
In 2011.

317
00:12:33,387 --> 00:12:36,503
I eventually went totally independent self published later.

318
00:12:36,743 --> 00:12:38,261
I got the rights back to my books

319
00:12:38,261 --> 00:12:40,835
and rep published them. And kinda just been

320
00:12:40,835 --> 00:12:44,035
rolling on ever since in in early 20

321
00:12:44,035 --> 00:12:44,754
23.

322
00:12:45,394 --> 00:12:46,774
I really rejuvenate

323
00:12:47,328 --> 00:12:49,953
my author career. I I realized the way

324
00:12:49,953 --> 00:12:50,931
things were going

325
00:12:51,306 --> 00:12:53,056
as you and I talked about before, the

326
00:12:53,056 --> 00:12:53,692
recording started,

327
00:12:54,425 --> 00:12:56,764
serial fiction is a huge

328
00:12:57,144 --> 00:13:00,524
growth area right now. And because of my

329
00:13:00,665 --> 00:13:03,225
experiences in fan fiction, I love the serial

330
00:13:03,225 --> 00:13:05,626
format. So that really just got me back

331
00:13:05,626 --> 00:13:07,691
into the game. And so I just... That's

332
00:13:07,691 --> 00:13:09,224
where I am right now and

333
00:13:09,757 --> 00:13:10,948
trying to make it all work, you know,

334
00:13:11,107 --> 00:13:11,981
juggling a your plates.

335
00:13:13,107 --> 00:13:15,169
Yeah. Okay. Well, we're gonna come back to

336
00:13:15,169 --> 00:13:17,470
the cereal side because I definitely wanna talk

337
00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:19,269
about that. But I do just wanna

338
00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:21,870
mention the fan fiction. I feel like this

339
00:13:21,870 --> 00:13:22,529
is something

340
00:13:22,910 --> 00:13:25,470
that doesn't get talked about very much. But

341
00:13:25,470 --> 00:13:27,230
given that you did quite a lot of

342
00:13:27,230 --> 00:13:27,470
it,

343
00:13:28,044 --> 00:13:29,962
before writing your own stuff. Just remind people,

344
00:13:30,122 --> 00:13:31,181
what is the legal

345
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,140
aspect

346
00:13:32,599 --> 00:13:33,818
of fan

347
00:13:34,197 --> 00:13:36,935
fiction in terms of can people publish

348
00:13:37,329 --> 00:13:39,885
what they write in fan fiction worlds.

349
00:13:40,604 --> 00:13:43,001
So the the the straight legal answer is,

350
00:13:43,161 --> 00:13:45,331
no. You can't make money off of fan

351
00:13:45,331 --> 00:13:47,325
fiction. And there's a lot of people who

352
00:13:47,325 --> 00:13:49,399
were doing gray areas in that, I do

353
00:13:49,399 --> 00:13:51,791
not recommend it. Fan fiction is a hobby.

354
00:13:52,031 --> 00:13:54,080
Fan fiction is a pastime. There's been

355
00:13:54,517 --> 00:13:56,427
some legal contest of it. I'm in the

356
00:13:56,666 --> 00:13:59,849
Us. So that's where the the copyright laws

357
00:14:00,008 --> 00:14:02,315
I'm familiar with differs by country as you

358
00:14:02,315 --> 00:14:03,111
will know, Joanna.

359
00:14:04,163 --> 00:14:06,161
But no. You can't make money off of

360
00:14:06,161 --> 00:14:08,717
eviction. It's a hobby. That said, there's lots

361
00:14:08,717 --> 00:14:10,690
of places where you can

362
00:14:11,049 --> 00:14:13,364
share your fan fiction. There's archive of our

363
00:14:13,364 --> 00:14:15,439
own click known as A03,

364
00:14:15,998 --> 00:14:18,952
which is basically repository where people can post

365
00:14:18,952 --> 00:14:21,356
their fan fiction that they're working on. And

366
00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:23,343
that is huge. I think that's like the

367
00:14:23,343 --> 00:14:25,330
third biggest site in the world right now.

368
00:14:25,966 --> 00:14:28,350
It's massive. And so there's a lot of

369
00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:30,430
community there. Which I think is the most

370
00:14:30,430 --> 00:14:32,652
valuable aspect of fan fiction. In fact, I

371
00:14:32,652 --> 00:14:34,239
am now working on a book called out

372
00:14:34,239 --> 00:14:37,176
from fan fiction, which chronicles my own journey

373
00:14:37,176 --> 00:14:39,264
and also gives people advice on how to

374
00:14:39,264 --> 00:14:42,384
morph from writing fan fiction to original fiction

375
00:14:42,384 --> 00:14:44,384
because they're not the same, but fan fiction

376
00:14:44,384 --> 00:14:47,345
can be a great learning ground for you

377
00:14:47,345 --> 00:14:48,714
if that's your passion.

378
00:14:49,827 --> 00:14:51,896
I think that's that's great and really important

379
00:14:51,896 --> 00:14:54,202
to say. And good for us to remember

380
00:14:54,202 --> 00:14:56,454
too as we create our own original characters.

381
00:14:56,695 --> 00:14:59,355
Mh. It's like you kinda wanna encourage people

382
00:14:59,414 --> 00:15:01,174
to love characters enough to write about them,

383
00:15:01,334 --> 00:15:03,978
but not publish books about them. So... Yeah.

384
00:15:04,852 --> 00:15:06,601
Yeah. I'd be really interested in that book

385
00:15:06,601 --> 00:15:08,111
when it comes out because I feel like

386
00:15:08,111 --> 00:15:09,781
a lot of people get started there. But

387
00:15:09,781 --> 00:15:12,692
let's get into the current book on discovery

388
00:15:12,911 --> 00:15:14,850
discovery writing. So let's

389
00:15:15,548 --> 00:15:18,105
define that. What is discovery writing and how

390
00:15:18,105 --> 00:15:21,655
does it differ from plotting or outlining. So

391
00:15:22,193 --> 00:15:25,146
a lot of times people describe discovery writing

392
00:15:25,146 --> 00:15:27,621
as the absence of, like, you were not

393
00:15:27,621 --> 00:15:28,121
using

394
00:15:28,834 --> 00:15:30,992
add outline. You were not using a summary.

395
00:15:31,231 --> 00:15:32,990
You were not planning it out ahead of

396
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:33,149
time.

397
00:15:33,869 --> 00:15:36,926
I find discovery writing in a more positive

398
00:15:37,545 --> 00:15:40,293
description is that you're leaning into your curiosity.

399
00:15:40,988 --> 00:15:43,299
So you're not deciding ahead of time what

400
00:15:43,299 --> 00:15:44,516
happens to your character

401
00:15:45,132 --> 00:15:45,610
specifically.

402
00:15:46,024 --> 00:15:48,501
You might know that your character going on,

403
00:15:48,741 --> 00:15:51,218
like, a trip. They're a pirate, and they're

404
00:15:51,218 --> 00:15:54,268
gonna go, you know, p around the caribbean.

405
00:15:54,667 --> 00:15:56,900
But you don't know specifically like, where they're

406
00:15:56,900 --> 00:15:58,735
gonna go or how they're gonna get there

407
00:15:58,735 --> 00:16:00,570
and what they're gonna encounter along the way.

408
00:16:01,064 --> 00:16:03,142
Because you don't know and that excites you

409
00:16:03,142 --> 00:16:05,059
as a writer. And so you get into

410
00:16:05,059 --> 00:16:06,658
it because you're like, I wanna know what

411
00:16:06,658 --> 00:16:07,297
happens next.

412
00:16:07,856 --> 00:16:09,787
And so that same rush that a lot

413
00:16:09,787 --> 00:16:11,878
of people get when they're reading a story

414
00:16:12,015 --> 00:16:15,618
is, I think foundational aspect of being using

415
00:16:15,755 --> 00:16:16,471
discovery writing.

416
00:16:17,042 --> 00:16:18,177
As a

417
00:16:18,709 --> 00:16:20,137
technique, and that's 1 of the things I

418
00:16:20,137 --> 00:16:22,359
really push in my book. As a discovery

419
00:16:22,359 --> 00:16:25,154
writing is a technique. It is a technique

420
00:16:25,154 --> 00:16:25,893
you use

421
00:16:26,428 --> 00:16:26,747
outlining,

422
00:16:27,384 --> 00:16:30,330
using story beats without any of those things.

423
00:16:30,808 --> 00:16:33,690
It's a technique that you can hone and

424
00:16:33,690 --> 00:16:37,514
improve upon over time by practicing it. So

425
00:16:37,514 --> 00:16:39,129
that's kind of a short

426
00:16:39,665 --> 00:16:42,157
version of what I think, discovery writing is

427
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:44,147
and how it can be useful to riders.

428
00:16:45,186 --> 00:16:46,864
I love this. And I do think your

429
00:16:46,864 --> 00:16:49,261
book is fantastic as a discovery you're writer.

430
00:16:51,191 --> 00:16:52,865
Well, I wrote... As I was saying, you

431
00:16:52,865 --> 00:16:54,539
know, I wrote a chapter on this in

432
00:16:54,539 --> 00:16:55,974
my house to write a normal book, but

433
00:16:55,974 --> 00:16:57,408
you've got a whole book on it. But

434
00:16:57,408 --> 00:16:58,778
first, it was funny because I was, how

435
00:16:58,778 --> 00:17:00,844
has she done a whole book on this.

436
00:17:01,162 --> 00:17:02,990
But as you've said, you actually do go

437
00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:04,898
through various sort of levels of techniques and

438
00:17:04,898 --> 00:17:06,329
all that. But I do wanna come back

439
00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:07,441
to this positive choice.

440
00:17:08,414 --> 00:17:10,335
As in... It's not like the thing that's

441
00:17:10,335 --> 00:17:12,414
left over if you don't do plotting. And

442
00:17:12,494 --> 00:17:14,015
I feel like almost that's the same as

443
00:17:14,015 --> 00:17:14,894
being an Indie author.

444
00:17:15,629 --> 00:17:17,307
So many people have this sort of oh,

445
00:17:17,547 --> 00:17:19,725
I can't get traditionally published so I will

446
00:17:20,024 --> 00:17:22,101
self publish. But in the in the same

447
00:17:22,101 --> 00:17:24,114
way, this is like a positive choice for

448
00:17:24,114 --> 00:17:25,652
a career, this is a positive

449
00:17:26,031 --> 00:17:28,348
choice. Well, although I say that, I off

450
00:17:28,428 --> 00:17:30,026
I often feel like I have tried to

451
00:17:30,026 --> 00:17:33,079
plot, but it just is not me. So

452
00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:36,200
perhaps is there something more innate almost about

453
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:36,700
this

454
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:38,599
discovery writer side?

455
00:17:39,255 --> 00:17:41,335
I think there is. And in some way,

456
00:17:41,575 --> 00:17:43,494
like, sure to we both know people who

457
00:17:43,494 --> 00:17:46,315
do outlines. Some people do, like, 1 sentence

458
00:17:46,454 --> 00:17:48,861
outline for each chapter. Some people have 30

459
00:17:48,861 --> 00:17:49,361
page

460
00:17:50,053 --> 00:17:53,628
outline treatments. Right? And that's per author. That's

461
00:17:53,628 --> 00:17:54,741
how their brain works.

462
00:17:55,552 --> 00:17:58,125
I did work in disability services and higher

463
00:17:58,183 --> 00:17:59,936
education for about 10 years. 1 of the

464
00:17:59,936 --> 00:18:01,849
most valuable things I took away from that

465
00:18:01,849 --> 00:18:03,259
experience working with people

466
00:18:03,617 --> 00:18:07,593
and students in the college environment was everybody's

467
00:18:07,593 --> 00:18:08,808
brain works differently.

468
00:18:09,342 --> 00:18:11,807
So I do think that there is a

469
00:18:11,807 --> 00:18:12,974
certain level of

470
00:18:13,893 --> 00:18:16,687
inclination for people like us that that is

471
00:18:16,687 --> 00:18:19,103
how our brain works. We need that

472
00:18:19,481 --> 00:18:21,977
dopamine serotonin Rush of curiosity

473
00:18:22,769 --> 00:18:24,365
to get us into the story.

474
00:18:25,403 --> 00:18:26,999
I hear a lot of writers, and it

475
00:18:26,999 --> 00:18:29,713
was certainly my experience as well that when

476
00:18:29,713 --> 00:18:30,750
they wrote an outline,

477
00:18:31,565 --> 00:18:33,325
and it was a great outline for a

478
00:18:33,325 --> 00:18:34,125
great story.

479
00:18:34,924 --> 00:18:36,684
Their brain kind of felt like it, you

480
00:18:36,684 --> 00:18:38,524
know, they could write the story because they

481
00:18:38,524 --> 00:18:40,210
had already thought that it was written, like,

482
00:18:40,290 --> 00:18:42,036
it was already over. There was nothing left.

483
00:18:42,671 --> 00:18:45,370
And I could... I've tried... Like you, I've

484
00:18:45,370 --> 00:18:47,592
tried using outlines. And every time I do,

485
00:18:48,163 --> 00:18:50,070
either don't write the story at all because

486
00:18:50,149 --> 00:18:52,612
I'm just like, well, that's done, or I

487
00:18:52,612 --> 00:18:54,280
try to write it according to the outline

488
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,448
and then go off script completely because

489
00:18:56,759 --> 00:18:58,597
my curiosity takes me in a different direction.

490
00:18:58,757 --> 00:19:00,115
So I think there is a certain level

491
00:19:00,115 --> 00:19:03,232
of inclination there. But again, you know, I

492
00:19:03,232 --> 00:19:06,520
have used outlining in reverse outlining. So outlining

493
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,429
is a tool that I use. It's a

494
00:19:08,429 --> 00:19:10,735
technique that has been helpful for me in

495
00:19:10,735 --> 00:19:13,121
writing my books, but I am more inclined

496
00:19:13,121 --> 00:19:14,076
to discovery writing.

497
00:19:14,888 --> 00:19:17,440
Yeah. I agree. It's so interesting, and we're

498
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,035
all different, but actually, you and I are

499
00:19:19,035 --> 00:19:20,072
quite similar it sounds.

500
00:19:21,428 --> 00:19:22,943
Into in terms of our writing, but let

501
00:19:22,943 --> 00:19:25,593
you mentioned the rush before. And I was

502
00:19:25,593 --> 00:19:27,831
thinking about this. This sort of moment of

503
00:19:27,831 --> 00:19:30,708
sync that comes, and you didn't know where

504
00:19:30,708 --> 00:19:32,066
it was gonna happen. But at some point,

505
00:19:32,226 --> 00:19:34,314
the story just, like makes sense, and I

506
00:19:34,314 --> 00:19:36,245
also write out of order, which

507
00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:38,607
it makes it even more of a discovery

508
00:19:38,607 --> 00:19:40,435
process, I guess. It's like I just don't

509
00:19:40,435 --> 00:19:41,946
know how these things are gonna connect, but

510
00:19:41,946 --> 00:19:45,654
at some point something happens, and it does

511
00:19:45,954 --> 00:19:48,115
connect. So I guess this does... And you'd

512
00:19:48,115 --> 00:19:49,575
have a whole section on

513
00:19:50,034 --> 00:19:50,194
intuition.

514
00:19:50,914 --> 00:19:53,901
So how how How do we almost trust

515
00:19:54,512 --> 00:19:57,767
this process? Like, can we learn more skills

516
00:19:57,767 --> 00:19:59,117
or do we just have to trust that

517
00:19:59,117 --> 00:20:00,721
we're gonna make it? So the answer to

518
00:20:00,721 --> 00:20:03,269
that question is yes. Because you do have

519
00:20:03,269 --> 00:20:05,020
to lean into trusting the process, which I

520
00:20:05,020 --> 00:20:06,931
think is the hardest part. And for all

521
00:20:06,931 --> 00:20:09,177
writers. Right? That's trust sitting down and doing

522
00:20:09,177 --> 00:20:10,612
the writing and trusting the words are gonna

523
00:20:10,612 --> 00:20:10,692
come.

524
00:20:11,569 --> 00:20:13,563
That is an important part of it. I

525
00:20:13,563 --> 00:20:17,492
do think that honing that skill is

526
00:20:18,044 --> 00:20:20,918
something that you can actively work on in

527
00:20:20,918 --> 00:20:21,397
practice.

528
00:20:21,956 --> 00:20:22,616
It is

529
00:20:22,994 --> 00:20:25,150
not something you can... Like, as much as

530
00:20:25,229 --> 00:20:27,066
I want people to read my book, my

531
00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:29,706
book can help you, but it's not going

532
00:20:29,706 --> 00:20:31,931
to write your books for you. Right? So

533
00:20:31,931 --> 00:20:33,998
that's that's that's the catch 22 we're always

534
00:20:33,998 --> 00:20:34,236
in.

535
00:20:34,952 --> 00:20:36,167
I think that

536
00:20:37,193 --> 00:20:40,144
you can. And just... I know, Becca, Yeah,

537
00:20:40,303 --> 00:20:41,898
like, you've talked to her before. And and

538
00:20:41,898 --> 00:20:44,131
if anybody has not read her book on

539
00:20:44,131 --> 00:20:45,566
intuition. I do highly recommend it.

540
00:20:46,457 --> 00:20:46,957
Because

541
00:20:47,412 --> 00:20:49,582
intuition is something that you can build

542
00:20:49,957 --> 00:20:53,734
on and improve and create a foundation of

543
00:20:53,951 --> 00:20:56,841
understanding that works with your discovery writing

544
00:20:57,457 --> 00:20:57,957
instincts

545
00:20:58,413 --> 00:20:59,948
to help you write

546
00:21:00,723 --> 00:21:01,998
better off the mark.

547
00:21:02,969 --> 00:21:04,805
There's nothing that can't be fixed in editing

548
00:21:04,805 --> 00:21:06,982
as they say. But the more you practice

549
00:21:07,041 --> 00:21:09,994
discovery writing consciously as a technique, and the

550
00:21:09,994 --> 00:21:12,330
more you build up your intuition by

551
00:21:12,642 --> 00:21:15,816
practice studying your craft and fixing problems and

552
00:21:15,816 --> 00:21:18,752
talking with other writers and then getting critiques

553
00:21:18,752 --> 00:21:19,307
and editing,

554
00:21:19,879 --> 00:21:22,276
the stronger your discovery writing will be to

555
00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:24,593
the point where you can talk about somebody

556
00:21:24,593 --> 00:21:27,650
like Dean Wesley Smith, who's famous for his

557
00:21:28,122 --> 00:21:28,759
discovery writing,

558
00:21:29,475 --> 00:21:31,465
hit pants whatever you wanna call it writing

559
00:21:31,465 --> 00:21:33,454
into the dark what he calls it. He

560
00:21:33,454 --> 00:21:34,966
can write it down and write a story,

561
00:21:35,205 --> 00:21:37,766
short story, like, front to back without much

562
00:21:37,766 --> 00:21:39,832
editing at all because he's just been doing

563
00:21:39,832 --> 00:21:41,501
it for so long. So I do think

564
00:21:41,501 --> 00:21:43,249
it is skill you can build up. But,

565
00:21:43,408 --> 00:21:44,680
you know, the bad news is you have

566
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:45,951
to do it by actually writing.

567
00:21:46,443 --> 00:21:47,635
That's do it.

568
00:21:48,906 --> 00:21:50,494
Oh, the good news because that's a fun.

569
00:21:50,733 --> 00:21:51,233
That's

570
00:21:51,606 --> 00:21:52,163
true. Yeah.

571
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:54,784
You mentioned Dean wesley smith there. I love

572
00:21:54,863 --> 00:21:56,627
Dean. He's been a mentor for me for

573
00:21:56,627 --> 00:21:58,776
many years. But it's funny. I still disagree

574
00:21:58,776 --> 00:22:00,527
with him on editing, so he kind of

575
00:22:00,527 --> 00:22:01,880
says you don't need an editing you just

576
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,790
need like, a proof reader, but I vote

577
00:22:03,790 --> 00:22:06,671
only in inverted commas written like between 40

578
00:22:06,671 --> 00:22:09,615
and 50 books now. And Dean's are written

579
00:22:09,615 --> 00:22:10,752
like 400

580
00:22:10,889 --> 00:22:14,007
books over the last 4 decades. So I

581
00:22:14,007 --> 00:22:15,994
feel like there are weight tools as you

582
00:22:15,994 --> 00:22:18,299
say, editing is a is a tool really

583
00:22:18,299 --> 00:22:20,127
to improve our work. But let's just go

584
00:22:20,127 --> 00:22:21,479
back to the beginning. You and I know

585
00:22:21,479 --> 00:22:23,718
what we mean by this. But you talk

586
00:22:23,718 --> 00:22:26,177
about practicing it as a technique. So just

587
00:22:26,177 --> 00:22:28,399
explain like someone is staring at the blank

588
00:22:28,399 --> 00:22:29,930
page, how do they

589
00:22:30,382 --> 00:22:32,699
discover write? 1 of the easiest ways to

590
00:22:32,699 --> 00:22:34,763
do it is just to ask yourself and

591
00:22:34,763 --> 00:22:37,724
then and then what what next? It's very

592
00:22:38,097 --> 00:22:40,424
improvisation in nature. And so if you know

593
00:22:40,424 --> 00:22:41,884
anything about theater

594
00:22:42,585 --> 00:22:44,585
improvisation. The big thing for them is yes

595
00:22:44,585 --> 00:22:46,924
and. And my version of that is

596
00:22:47,224 --> 00:22:49,554
what next? So you're sitting there. You have

597
00:22:49,554 --> 00:22:52,264
a character in mind and they're there at

598
00:22:52,264 --> 00:22:53,140
a coffee house,

599
00:22:53,937 --> 00:22:56,423
sitting down, drinking tea, and, like, you know

600
00:22:56,423 --> 00:22:57,780
there's gotta be some kind of either a

601
00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:00,014
meat cute or inc incident like you know

602
00:23:00,014 --> 00:23:00,174
that.

603
00:23:01,211 --> 00:23:02,967
But what is it? What it... What is

604
00:23:02,967 --> 00:23:03,445
gonna be?

605
00:23:04,019 --> 00:23:05,693
So you sit there and think, well, what

606
00:23:05,693 --> 00:23:07,606
next? What would be the most dramatic thing

607
00:23:07,606 --> 00:23:10,555
that could happen? Oh, well, maybe a dragon

608
00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:12,092
falls through the roof or

609
00:23:12,404 --> 00:23:14,957
maybe the the tea shop gets held up

610
00:23:14,957 --> 00:23:17,910
at gunpoint, or maybe somebody sits down and

611
00:23:17,910 --> 00:23:21,033
says, here's the secret you know, code that

612
00:23:21,033 --> 00:23:22,386
we talked about earlier and you're like, we

613
00:23:22,386 --> 00:23:24,136
didn't... Your character doesn't know what's going on.

614
00:23:24,613 --> 00:23:25,750
So asking

615
00:23:26,125 --> 00:23:27,102
yourself, trying to

616
00:23:27,972 --> 00:23:29,269
charge up that creativity

617
00:23:30,045 --> 00:23:32,118
and lean into it rather than saying, okay.

618
00:23:32,277 --> 00:23:33,792
So now this person has to have this...

619
00:23:34,111 --> 00:23:35,307
And this is what has to happen an

620
00:23:35,307 --> 00:23:38,027
action. Just just ask yourself. What what could

621
00:23:38,027 --> 00:23:39,776
happen next? What might happen next?

622
00:23:40,730 --> 00:23:41,945
Lean into that

623
00:23:42,478 --> 00:23:43,535
and then right

624
00:23:44,004 --> 00:23:46,074
And yeah sometimes you're gonna end up going

625
00:23:46,074 --> 00:23:47,667
back and saying no, that wasn't what happened

626
00:23:47,667 --> 00:23:49,579
next then something else needs to happen. But

627
00:23:49,579 --> 00:23:51,331
you're not gonna know that until you start

628
00:23:51,331 --> 00:23:53,499
the writing process. So I think leaning into

629
00:23:53,499 --> 00:23:56,534
the curiosity by asking yourself, what next? What's

630
00:23:56,534 --> 00:23:58,452
most dramatic thing that could happen next? What's

631
00:23:58,452 --> 00:24:00,784
the saddest thing that could happen next? What's

632
00:24:00,784 --> 00:24:03,421
the happiest, most joyous thing that could happen

633
00:24:03,421 --> 00:24:04,480
next. Just

634
00:24:04,939 --> 00:24:07,097
kick those gears into motion? I think it's

635
00:24:07,097 --> 00:24:08,695
they're the easiest way to go about it.

636
00:24:09,989 --> 00:24:12,066
Yeah. And this is interesting to too you

637
00:24:12,066 --> 00:24:13,046
because I feel like

638
00:24:13,425 --> 00:24:14,884
our author voice.

639
00:24:15,902 --> 00:24:18,320
Is is related quite a lot to our

640
00:24:18,714 --> 00:24:20,710
sense of curiosity and who we are. So

641
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:22,945
you mentioned a dragon there falling down from

642
00:24:22,945 --> 00:24:25,181
above or whatever. That is never ever ever

643
00:24:25,181 --> 00:24:26,857
going to happen in 1 of my books

644
00:24:26,857 --> 00:24:29,348
as J 10 because I don't do dragons.

645
00:24:29,508 --> 00:24:31,426
What's more likely is, you know, the character

646
00:24:31,426 --> 00:24:33,664
is gonna fall through the floor into equipped

647
00:24:33,664 --> 00:24:34,563
full of bones

648
00:24:35,342 --> 00:24:38,313
underneath. Like, that's literally what like, Yeah. There

649
00:24:38,313 --> 00:24:39,750
you go. And there's an idea and that

650
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:41,426
only kind of came to me the the

651
00:24:41,426 --> 00:24:43,581
person in the cafe. Now I wondered and

652
00:24:43,661 --> 00:24:45,677
I haven't prepped you with this question, but,

653
00:24:46,549 --> 00:24:48,704
in my head, I see.

654
00:24:49,502 --> 00:24:51,519
So I see that person in the cafe

655
00:24:51,578 --> 00:24:53,494
and I see them falling into the crypt

656
00:24:53,494 --> 00:24:55,250
and I can see the crypt like, I

657
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:57,502
could physically describe that for you because I...

658
00:24:57,742 --> 00:24:59,340
I'm a very visual person.

659
00:25:00,458 --> 00:25:01,817
How is that for you? Because I feel

660
00:25:01,817 --> 00:25:03,355
like I hear from some people

661
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:05,896
they hear voices so they hear dialogue. I

662
00:25:05,896 --> 00:25:07,647
never ever ever hear dialogue.

663
00:25:08,204 --> 00:25:10,114
And I struggle with dialogue, but I'm... I

664
00:25:10,114 --> 00:25:12,262
think I'm pretty good at the visual description.

665
00:25:12,421 --> 00:25:14,444
So talk a bit about that and how

666
00:25:14,499 --> 00:25:17,115
these choices we make creatively are based on

667
00:25:17,115 --> 00:25:19,573
our voice and how are, I guess, how

668
00:25:19,573 --> 00:25:21,992
our brains work. That is such a great

669
00:25:22,206 --> 00:25:24,190
observation that you that you made about, like,

670
00:25:24,269 --> 00:25:25,936
for me, Dragon falling through the roof would

671
00:25:25,936 --> 00:25:28,413
totally be what happens. Whereas for you, it's...

672
00:25:28,731 --> 00:25:30,403
They fall down into a crypt. And, like,

673
00:25:30,642 --> 00:25:32,791
I would never fall them and I've... That

674
00:25:32,791 --> 00:25:34,622
falling into a crypt, what? I would never

675
00:25:34,622 --> 00:25:35,758
do that. So

676
00:25:36,308 --> 00:25:39,415
our experience and what interests us is what

677
00:25:39,415 --> 00:25:41,646
comes to the fore when we start leaning

678
00:25:41,646 --> 00:25:42,703
into that curiosity.

679
00:25:43,413 --> 00:25:45,239
I do find it interesting because I am

680
00:25:45,239 --> 00:25:48,812
too very visual, but I'm also audio. I

681
00:25:48,812 --> 00:25:51,059
do... Like, when I write

682
00:25:51,528 --> 00:25:52,881
to me, and I know there are some

683
00:25:52,881 --> 00:25:54,791
writers out there like this. I'm watching a

684
00:25:54,791 --> 00:25:55,291
movie

685
00:25:55,666 --> 00:25:58,054
with audio. It's not just the scene. So

686
00:25:58,133 --> 00:26:00,734
I'm very good at dialogue and sadly, not

687
00:26:00,933 --> 00:26:03,399
quite as good as descriptions, which just ironic

688
00:26:03,399 --> 00:26:04,752
because I can't see it in my head.

689
00:26:05,388 --> 00:26:07,320
But for me, it's very much

690
00:26:08,107 --> 00:26:11,369
watching a scene unfold, and then, like, being

691
00:26:11,369 --> 00:26:12,960
in the movie theater in the dark and

692
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,765
eating popcorn and seeing what's it's gonna happen

693
00:26:14,884 --> 00:26:15,123
next.

694
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,834
I do know that there are some discovery

695
00:26:17,834 --> 00:26:19,907
writers who don't have that kind of visual

696
00:26:19,907 --> 00:26:21,980
queue, but they usually do have as you

697
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:24,544
said audio cues. They're layer listening to something,

698
00:26:24,623 --> 00:26:25,838
the characters talking

699
00:26:26,293 --> 00:26:29,711
or they just have an idea that, like,

700
00:26:30,268 --> 00:26:30,768
springboard

701
00:26:31,302 --> 00:26:32,812
into words on the page,

702
00:26:33,463 --> 00:26:36,247
it's it's very unique for each author. And

703
00:26:36,407 --> 00:26:37,622
I think that forms

704
00:26:37,997 --> 00:26:39,111
your author voice.

705
00:26:39,668 --> 00:26:40,168
And

706
00:26:40,479 --> 00:26:43,447
builds upon your intuition because

707
00:26:43,823 --> 00:26:45,973
what you know works for you and what

708
00:26:45,973 --> 00:26:47,805
works for you as a reader is what

709
00:26:47,805 --> 00:26:51,082
will come into play as a discovery writer,

710
00:26:51,242 --> 00:26:53,310
Somebody is using discovery writing as a technique.

711
00:26:53,787 --> 00:26:55,696
And we should acknowledge that some people do

712
00:26:55,696 --> 00:26:58,100
not see anything. That's several people on the

713
00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:00,012
show who have no mind's eye as such.

714
00:27:00,251 --> 00:27:03,118
And there's nothing wrong with anyone. However, you

715
00:27:03,118 --> 00:27:05,164
are experiencing the world is

716
00:27:05,601 --> 00:27:07,188
is up to you. And I think what's

717
00:27:07,188 --> 00:27:10,124
fascinating as writers is what what we see

718
00:27:10,124 --> 00:27:12,823
as the end product. You would have absolutely

719
00:27:12,823 --> 00:27:13,719
no clue

720
00:27:14,188 --> 00:27:17,299
how that got from the person's head to

721
00:27:17,299 --> 00:27:18,336
the pay... The finished product.

722
00:27:19,054 --> 00:27:20,729
It doesn't matter how... It doesn't matter if

723
00:27:20,729 --> 00:27:22,962
you're a discovery writer or a plot or

724
00:27:22,962 --> 00:27:25,610
you dictate or you, whatever you do. It

725
00:27:25,610 --> 00:27:27,365
literally doesn't matter that that it it's going

726
00:27:27,365 --> 00:27:29,041
to be the same in in the future.

727
00:27:29,281 --> 00:27:31,355
So let's just come back to... Oh, I

728
00:27:31,355 --> 00:27:33,281
guess, The other thing I was gonna mention

729
00:27:33,281 --> 00:27:36,464
was layering or smith user's circling. And I

730
00:27:36,464 --> 00:27:38,533
think I kind of circle, so for example,

731
00:27:38,931 --> 00:27:41,022
I will circle back and add

732
00:27:41,334 --> 00:27:41,732
dialogue.

733
00:27:42,371 --> 00:27:44,067
Right. In my sort of

734
00:27:44,684 --> 00:27:46,438
even while I'm writing the scene, it'll be,

735
00:27:46,518 --> 00:27:48,353
like, okay. Right right right. Right. All the

736
00:27:48,353 --> 00:27:50,346
stuff I can see. And then, oh, yeah.

737
00:27:50,586 --> 00:27:52,273
I guess. I better put go right and

738
00:27:52,273 --> 00:27:54,604
put some dialogue in if there's 2 characters

739
00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:55,559
or some

740
00:27:56,014 --> 00:27:57,765
emotion. I definitely have to go back and

741
00:27:57,765 --> 00:27:59,848
add emotion. So how do you do this?

742
00:28:00,007 --> 00:28:01,280
How do you add these layers?

743
00:28:02,076 --> 00:28:03,826
So 1 of... A couple of things I

744
00:28:03,826 --> 00:28:06,148
talk about in my book is techniques or

745
00:28:06,148 --> 00:28:09,419
approaches rather to discovery writing. There's the recur

746
00:28:09,419 --> 00:28:11,094
style, which is what you're talking about with

747
00:28:11,094 --> 00:28:13,885
circling. So you're laying something down, and then

748
00:28:13,885 --> 00:28:17,493
we... Recur go back you reread it, you

749
00:28:17,493 --> 00:28:19,890
add elements to it as you go along.

750
00:28:20,369 --> 00:28:20,869
Sometimes

751
00:28:21,249 --> 00:28:23,166
for me, I get far enough into a

752
00:28:23,166 --> 00:28:24,765
story. When I go back,

753
00:28:25,258 --> 00:28:28,039
I realized that something that I put in

754
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:30,582
there earlier actually is very important for this

755
00:28:30,582 --> 00:28:33,943
later scene. So my brain is laying down

756
00:28:34,094 --> 00:28:36,405
those layers as I go, sometimes without me

757
00:28:36,405 --> 00:28:36,905
even

758
00:28:37,282 --> 00:28:39,833
knowing it. There's also the bridging technique, which

759
00:28:39,912 --> 00:28:41,825
I think is something you use as well.

760
00:28:42,318 --> 00:28:44,148
I don't use it as much, because I

761
00:28:44,307 --> 00:28:45,739
I do write out of order a little

762
00:28:45,739 --> 00:28:48,126
bit sometimes, but it's not a mains stay

763
00:28:48,126 --> 00:28:50,532
for me as a technique. But you do

764
00:28:50,532 --> 00:28:52,608
bridging. You have these out of order scenes

765
00:28:52,608 --> 00:28:54,923
and then you bridge between them and the

766
00:28:54,923 --> 00:28:56,461
creativity in the curiosity

767
00:28:56,839 --> 00:28:58,835
comes into play for people who use that

768
00:28:58,835 --> 00:28:59,130
technique

769
00:28:59,650 --> 00:29:02,049
by wondering how they're gonna get from 1

770
00:29:02,049 --> 00:29:03,650
thing to another because it may seem like

771
00:29:03,650 --> 00:29:05,970
those 2 points are so disparate. They can

772
00:29:05,970 --> 00:29:08,301
never be connected. But you know they can.

773
00:29:08,461 --> 00:29:11,253
And so you're curious yourself in building those,

774
00:29:11,573 --> 00:29:14,126
you know, weaving all those images together to

775
00:29:14,126 --> 00:29:14,626
create

776
00:29:14,939 --> 00:29:17,117
a story. So a lot depends on

777
00:29:17,656 --> 00:29:19,654
what you're comfortable in writing and how you

778
00:29:19,654 --> 00:29:22,131
lay down those things, the more experience you

779
00:29:22,131 --> 00:29:24,384
get. I think a lot of times your

780
00:29:24,384 --> 00:29:26,561
subconscious is more engaged

781
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:29,736
and layering down things for you. But the

782
00:29:29,736 --> 00:29:31,035
recur of

783
00:29:31,588 --> 00:29:33,744
discovery writing is a feature, not a bug.

784
00:29:34,223 --> 00:29:35,659
That's 1 thing I I tried to try

785
00:29:35,659 --> 00:29:37,655
to tell people, it's, like, going back and

786
00:29:37,655 --> 00:29:39,171
reading what you've already read or going back

787
00:29:39,171 --> 00:29:41,523
and adding things to what you've already written

788
00:29:41,903 --> 00:29:44,241
is you building up

789
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:48,296
the foundations to continue with the creativity and

790
00:29:48,296 --> 00:29:49,036
the curiosity.

791
00:29:49,668 --> 00:29:50,857
Because you may even go back and lay

792
00:29:50,857 --> 00:29:52,918
down things that you're not real sure you

793
00:29:52,918 --> 00:29:54,821
have an answer to yet. That's where the

794
00:29:54,821 --> 00:29:56,486
trust comes in because you've gotta be able

795
00:29:56,486 --> 00:29:59,389
to trust you're intuition in your instincts as

796
00:29:59,448 --> 00:30:02,160
discovery writer to know that well, either I'll

797
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,835
come back and cut that out or that

798
00:30:03,835 --> 00:30:05,430
is something that I will come back to

799
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:06,945
for some reason that I don't even know

800
00:30:06,945 --> 00:30:07,025
yet.

801
00:30:08,558 --> 00:30:10,476
Yeah. Oh, that's happened so a lot. But

802
00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:12,154
I think the other thing for me is

803
00:30:12,154 --> 00:30:12,974
my first

804
00:30:13,593 --> 00:30:16,230
self edit is very important in that.

805
00:30:16,964 --> 00:30:17,464
I

806
00:30:18,083 --> 00:30:18,583
know

807
00:30:18,962 --> 00:30:21,519
that there may... Well, there will be some

808
00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:23,996
problems, and that first draft, which I print

809
00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:25,689
out and I do it by hand. There's

810
00:30:25,689 --> 00:30:27,763
often a lot of arrows or move this

811
00:30:27,763 --> 00:30:30,236
to a, move b to c and because

812
00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:31,912
I write out all of that that actually

813
00:30:31,912 --> 00:30:33,600
happens quite a lot. And it's like, oh,

814
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:35,827
I need to write another thing here or

815
00:30:35,827 --> 00:30:37,816
what why is this here? You know, so

816
00:30:37,816 --> 00:30:40,043
there's a lot of moving things around and

817
00:30:40,043 --> 00:30:42,607
restructuring. But to me, that's part of my

818
00:30:42,607 --> 00:30:45,639
process. Yeah. And again, it doesn't mean it's

819
00:30:45,639 --> 00:30:47,394
wrong. It's just the way I do it.

820
00:30:47,634 --> 00:30:48,932
So how do your edits

821
00:30:49,404 --> 00:30:51,230
sort of go into it? Are you cleaner

822
00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:52,978
in the edit like Dean or how do

823
00:30:52,978 --> 00:30:54,566
you do that? I'm a little bit cleaner

824
00:30:54,566 --> 00:30:56,155
in the edit, but that's because I'm a

825
00:30:56,155 --> 00:30:59,027
heavy recur writer So I go back and

826
00:30:59,106 --> 00:31:00,241
I will re reread

827
00:31:00,852 --> 00:31:01,669
2 chapters

828
00:31:02,121 --> 00:31:02,621
behind

829
00:31:02,993 --> 00:31:04,263
before I even start writing.

830
00:31:04,834 --> 00:31:06,907
So I do a lot of on the

831
00:31:06,907 --> 00:31:07,806
road editing

832
00:31:08,422 --> 00:31:10,256
in a way. When I finally get to

833
00:31:10,256 --> 00:31:10,815
the end,

834
00:31:11,452 --> 00:31:13,526
I rarely have to move scenes around.

835
00:31:14,177 --> 00:31:14,836
I usually

836
00:31:15,209 --> 00:31:16,502
hit my problems.

837
00:31:17,589 --> 00:31:19,017
I I would say the 2 thirds mark

838
00:31:19,017 --> 00:31:20,524
is where I always end up with problems.

839
00:31:20,762 --> 00:31:23,323
Like, I just... That's where things start collapsing

840
00:31:23,323 --> 00:31:25,001
it on themselves, and I have to do

841
00:31:25,001 --> 00:31:26,918
a full edit of everything I've written so

842
00:31:26,918 --> 00:31:28,835
far. So I'm doing a lot of editing

843
00:31:28,835 --> 00:31:30,765
as I go. Which is funny to me

844
00:31:30,765 --> 00:31:32,439
because, like, people people like you were like,

845
00:31:32,598 --> 00:31:34,272
this is my third draft, and I'm just,

846
00:31:34,351 --> 00:31:36,822
like, this is my first draft of the

847
00:31:36,822 --> 00:31:38,833
book, but it's like the 40 fifth draft

848
00:31:38,833 --> 00:31:41,629
of this particular scene. So as a as

849
00:31:41,629 --> 00:31:43,786
a recur writer, I do a lot of

850
00:31:43,786 --> 00:31:45,559
editing as I go. That's true for all

851
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,720
Chris writers as you point out adriana everybody's

852
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:48,839
process is valid.

853
00:31:49,399 --> 00:31:52,279
That's just how I... My brain works. I

854
00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:54,764
need to have the back end pretty well

855
00:31:54,764 --> 00:31:56,696
structured in order for me to keep going

856
00:31:56,991 --> 00:31:57,491
forward

857
00:31:58,026 --> 00:32:00,572
into the unknown. Yeah. And actually, earlier, you

858
00:32:00,572 --> 00:32:02,978
mentioned reverse outlining which I also do. And

859
00:32:03,138 --> 00:32:05,855
I also like you probably around 50 percent.

860
00:32:06,334 --> 00:32:09,371
I sometimes just lose the plot entirely, and,

861
00:32:09,530 --> 00:32:11,457
I have to Yeah. And at that point,

862
00:32:11,695 --> 00:32:13,759
I will reverse outline just I'll just write

863
00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:15,268
the chapters in a few lines as to

864
00:32:15,268 --> 00:32:17,253
what the hell happening. But I do often

865
00:32:17,253 --> 00:32:19,318
have to reread the whole thing at around

866
00:32:19,318 --> 00:32:21,399
50 sense. So I guess in a way

867
00:32:21,399 --> 00:32:23,386
that's almost where you are, but I'm... I

868
00:32:23,386 --> 00:32:25,214
don't do much, and then I suddenly have

869
00:32:25,214 --> 00:32:26,327
to do a bunch of it and then,

870
00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:28,155
like, the pe the penny drops and then

871
00:32:28,234 --> 00:32:30,960
I know how to move on. So again,

872
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,876
I think that's quite a normal part of

873
00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:33,754
the process isn't it.

874
00:32:34,712 --> 00:32:36,308
It is. And I I love your thing

875
00:32:36,308 --> 00:32:38,119
the the phrase that used the penny drops

876
00:32:38,239 --> 00:32:40,077
with so many discovery writers I talked to.

877
00:32:40,397 --> 00:32:42,714
There always does seem to be that moment

878
00:32:42,714 --> 00:32:45,511
somewhere along the process where the penny drops.

879
00:32:45,831 --> 00:32:48,556
Where it all just poop comes together, and

880
00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:50,863
they real mess upon. I know the fun

881
00:32:50,863 --> 00:32:52,295
bit. That's that's the part I live for.

882
00:32:52,454 --> 00:32:54,456
I'm like, oh, now. I get it. And

883
00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:56,201
sometimes it's frustrating because I'm not there yet.

884
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:57,708
And I'm like, I know the nobody's gonna

885
00:32:57,708 --> 00:32:59,769
drop at some point, Darn it, but I'm

886
00:32:59,769 --> 00:33:00,325
not there yet.

887
00:33:01,355 --> 00:33:01,673
Yeah.

888
00:33:02,164 --> 00:33:03,843
And I I love that you have that

889
00:33:03,843 --> 00:33:05,601
too, and that I call that kind of

890
00:33:05,601 --> 00:33:08,398
that sync, what Carl Jung calls sync. And

891
00:33:08,478 --> 00:33:09,916
Yeah. And that is the moment when you

892
00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:12,328
realize your intuition has been right all along

893
00:33:12,328 --> 00:33:13,923
and that you were gonna get there. And

894
00:33:13,923 --> 00:33:16,576
probably that's the biggest lesson for people listening

895
00:33:16,714 --> 00:33:17,034
is,

896
00:33:17,592 --> 00:33:19,346
I mean, it takes time to trust this.

897
00:33:19,586 --> 00:33:20,942
I think it was only when I wrote

898
00:33:20,942 --> 00:33:22,950
that, but, in fact, probably only when Becca

899
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:25,841
wrote that book on intuition that I finally

900
00:33:26,537 --> 00:33:27,037
accepted.

901
00:33:27,812 --> 00:33:30,856
My writing process like, probably over a decade

902
00:33:30,856 --> 00:33:33,087
of trying to deny my process. How about

903
00:33:33,087 --> 00:33:33,884
you? Same.

904
00:33:34,522 --> 00:33:36,674
Exactly the same. Joanna, And that's 1 of

905
00:33:36,674 --> 00:33:38,684
the reasons I wrote this look. I was

906
00:33:38,684 --> 00:33:40,444
talking to a good friend of mine, Gina

907
00:33:40,605 --> 00:33:42,924
Hogan and Edwards. She's a historical fiction writer,

908
00:33:43,164 --> 00:33:45,724
and we were talking about process, and she's

909
00:33:45,724 --> 00:33:46,845
very into outlining.

910
00:33:47,338 --> 00:33:49,959
And I just... I encouraged her to use

911
00:33:49,959 --> 00:33:51,650
discovery writing techniques,

912
00:33:52,024 --> 00:33:54,248
and it really opened up her writing in

913
00:33:54,248 --> 00:33:54,963
a lot of ways.

914
00:33:55,692 --> 00:33:57,438
I wanted to be able to take away

915
00:33:57,438 --> 00:33:59,104
that stigma. I wanted to be able to

916
00:33:59,104 --> 00:34:01,723
say, look, this is just another technique. This

917
00:34:01,723 --> 00:34:02,437
isn't bad.

918
00:34:02,929 --> 00:34:04,681
You aren't a bad writer. You're in a

919
00:34:04,681 --> 00:34:07,390
terrible person for not having it outline at

920
00:34:07,390 --> 00:34:10,510
the Starlight pre planning and just because it

921
00:34:10,510 --> 00:34:12,815
did take me so long. And I felt

922
00:34:12,815 --> 00:34:15,279
so broken. I would write those outlines, and

923
00:34:15,279 --> 00:34:16,869
then I wouldn't be able to write the

924
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:19,840
story. And that's just a terrible feeling. For

925
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,679
anybody who's gone through that, I totally get

926
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,320
that, and it did take me a long

927
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,420
time and coming back to fan fiction

928
00:34:27,133 --> 00:34:29,625
1 of the breakthroughs for me was

929
00:34:30,001 --> 00:34:31,913
when I was looking at my fan fiction.

930
00:34:32,073 --> 00:34:33,688
At some point, I... This was

931
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,311
you know, 2018,

932
00:34:36,471 --> 00:34:39,260
19 20. I don't remember exactly when. But

933
00:34:39,340 --> 00:34:41,013
I realized that most of the fiction I

934
00:34:41,013 --> 00:34:43,344
wrote certainly the most popular stories I written

935
00:34:43,344 --> 00:34:45,364
in infant fiction. Were all

936
00:34:46,305 --> 00:34:48,144
written by the seat of the pants. And

937
00:34:48,224 --> 00:34:50,945
I started realizing maybe this is my technique.

938
00:34:51,439 --> 00:34:53,594
Maybe this is how I can get back

939
00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:54,333
to writing

940
00:34:54,711 --> 00:34:57,744
as a professional author who enjoys my work

941
00:34:57,744 --> 00:35:00,312
and enjoys the stories that I'm writing. Is

942
00:35:00,312 --> 00:35:01,827
that the penny drop moment. I was just,

943
00:35:01,907 --> 00:35:04,778
like, oh, I'm already doing this. Maybe I

944
00:35:04,778 --> 00:35:07,967
should apply this to my own original fiction

945
00:35:07,967 --> 00:35:09,599
and see what happens. End

946
00:35:10,296 --> 00:35:12,372
And it worked took a while. Yeah. The.

947
00:35:12,612 --> 00:35:15,086
As as we're talking, I am wondering if

948
00:35:15,086 --> 00:35:17,880
the reason plotting is considered so much more

949
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:18,200
acceptable.

950
00:35:18,774 --> 00:35:21,571
Is that when you submit to a publisher

951
00:35:21,571 --> 00:35:25,166
or an agent, you generally submit 3 chapters

952
00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:25,965
and an outline.

953
00:35:27,097 --> 00:35:29,245
Of a book. And or if you already

954
00:35:29,245 --> 00:35:31,870
have a traditional deal, they want for the

955
00:35:31,870 --> 00:35:33,755
next book, they'll want an outline

956
00:35:34,114 --> 00:35:35,795
and it's so funny. I talked to someone

957
00:35:35,795 --> 00:35:37,315
the other day about this, and she was

958
00:35:37,315 --> 00:35:38,594
like, oh, if you're gonna submit you do

959
00:35:38,594 --> 00:35:40,034
this, and I'm like, well I couldn't do

960
00:35:40,034 --> 00:35:41,875
that because I have to finish the book.

961
00:35:42,449 --> 00:35:44,847
Before I could do an outline. So that's

962
00:35:44,847 --> 00:35:47,244
just crazy. So I mean, it it just

963
00:35:47,244 --> 00:35:48,443
struck me as we were talking? What do

964
00:35:48,443 --> 00:35:49,802
you think? Do you think that's why it's

965
00:35:49,802 --> 00:35:52,372
become so much more acceptable. The assumption and

966
00:35:52,372 --> 00:35:54,599
is you will do an outline. I think

967
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:56,429
that's part of it, but I would go

968
00:35:56,429 --> 00:35:58,656
back further than that. I think that a

969
00:35:58,656 --> 00:36:00,428
lot of times when you look at

970
00:36:00,897 --> 00:36:03,696
people who are teaching creative writing historically

971
00:36:04,068 --> 00:36:04,568
in,

972
00:36:04,940 --> 00:36:06,471
you know, the twentieth century

973
00:36:06,843 --> 00:36:07,795
throughout those years,

974
00:36:09,001 --> 00:36:11,550
Discovery writing tends to be the first thing

975
00:36:11,550 --> 00:36:14,098
that a lot of new writers do. They

976
00:36:14,098 --> 00:36:16,088
have an idea, they sit down, they write

977
00:36:16,088 --> 00:36:16,646
a story.

978
00:36:17,299 --> 00:36:17,799
And

979
00:36:18,257 --> 00:36:20,253
oftentimes it's not a very good story, and

980
00:36:20,253 --> 00:36:21,950
then they go to try to get

981
00:36:22,967 --> 00:36:24,324
education, They try to learn how to do

982
00:36:24,324 --> 00:36:27,948
the craft. And so all these teachers and

983
00:36:28,083 --> 00:36:29,828
educators are looking at these stories and go,

984
00:36:30,225 --> 00:36:32,367
see this is a bad technique. You need

985
00:36:32,367 --> 00:36:33,478
to outline first.

986
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:35,889
And then you won't have these problems. And

987
00:36:35,889 --> 00:36:37,089
so I think it was like kind of

988
00:36:37,089 --> 00:36:39,589
a problem solving method for a lot of

989
00:36:39,650 --> 00:36:42,383
creative writing teachers to try to get to,

990
00:36:42,543 --> 00:36:45,572
like, really hone in technique onto to newer

991
00:36:45,572 --> 00:36:47,963
writers, and then it just expanded. And, yes.

992
00:36:48,282 --> 00:36:50,297
I think the traditional publishing

993
00:36:50,847 --> 00:36:53,150
wanting those outlines because they're hedging their bets

994
00:36:53,150 --> 00:36:54,738
for them, it's a business. They wanna know

995
00:36:54,738 --> 00:36:56,485
what the next story or what the full

996
00:36:56,485 --> 00:36:58,232
story is before they invest any money in

997
00:36:58,232 --> 00:36:59,920
it. I think it's a lot of these

998
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,116
elements at play.

999
00:37:01,674 --> 00:37:04,306
And as you were saying earlier with Indie

1000
00:37:04,306 --> 00:37:06,618
publishing and self publishing, You know, the times

1001
00:37:06,618 --> 00:37:07,335
have changed.

1002
00:37:07,987 --> 00:37:09,918
The times have changed. And so

1003
00:37:10,371 --> 00:37:12,517
now we can talk about these different techniques,

1004
00:37:12,915 --> 00:37:14,505
we can say that there are ways that

1005
00:37:14,505 --> 00:37:17,072
a person like you, Joanna can make a

1006
00:37:17,072 --> 00:37:19,149
whole career writing a lot of books using

1007
00:37:19,149 --> 00:37:22,025
this technique and be successful on your own

1008
00:37:22,025 --> 00:37:22,525
terms

1009
00:37:22,918 --> 00:37:25,471
without having to conform to the way someone

1010
00:37:25,471 --> 00:37:27,864
else wants you to present your work. And

1011
00:37:27,864 --> 00:37:29,778
that's certainly a privilege for us to be

1012
00:37:29,778 --> 00:37:31,851
living in an era when that's true.

1013
00:37:32,664 --> 00:37:35,704
Oh, yeah. I literally have not outlined or

1014
00:37:35,704 --> 00:37:37,625
plotted any of my books.

1015
00:37:38,824 --> 00:37:41,304
Yes. Awesome. I love it. Yes.

1016
00:37:42,199 --> 00:37:43,878
And I think it was Rachel hair and

1017
00:37:43,958 --> 00:37:45,236
I talked to her about this, and I

1018
00:37:45,316 --> 00:37:46,835
I was having a, like, a private conversation.

1019
00:37:47,074 --> 00:37:48,912
I was like, oh, why can't I just

1020
00:37:48,912 --> 00:37:49,412
change

1021
00:37:49,871 --> 00:37:51,390
and she was, like, look,

1022
00:37:51,963 --> 00:37:53,710
you've managed to write all these books? Like,

1023
00:37:53,789 --> 00:37:54,981
what is even the problem.

1024
00:37:55,696 --> 00:37:57,999
Ding ding ding ding exactly. That was kind

1025
00:37:57,999 --> 00:37:59,111
of my home moment And I'm like, wait.

1026
00:37:59,349 --> 00:38:01,358
Hold on. I've written all these stories

1027
00:38:01,668 --> 00:38:03,257
just doing it this. Maybe I can keep

1028
00:38:03,257 --> 00:38:04,528
doing it that way. What?

1029
00:38:05,244 --> 00:38:08,105
Yeah. Like, you're not broken. So I I

1030
00:38:08,105 --> 00:38:10,012
hope that this has really helped people listening.

1031
00:38:10,504 --> 00:38:12,097
And of course, it might be interesting to

1032
00:38:12,097 --> 00:38:13,689
people who do plot, and we're not saying

1033
00:38:13,689 --> 00:38:16,078
anything there's nothing wrong with that either. It's

1034
00:38:16,078 --> 00:38:17,590
just people too. I mean, we'll yeah Yeah.

1035
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:20,071
They're okay. It's Like, you know, you you

1036
00:38:20,071 --> 00:38:21,818
get you... You can't help yourselves. You just

1037
00:38:21,818 --> 00:38:23,725
have to outline. We get it. Yeah. Yeah.

1038
00:38:23,963 --> 00:38:25,949
Fair enough. But I do want... While you're

1039
00:38:25,949 --> 00:38:28,347
here, I'm also interested in your other book

1040
00:38:28,347 --> 00:38:31,228
for authors which is, become an on an

1041
00:38:31,362 --> 00:38:34,617
unstoppable storyteller how to craft compelling cereals.

1042
00:38:35,188 --> 00:38:37,416
Now I don't read cereals, so I don't

1043
00:38:37,416 --> 00:38:39,724
even try to write cereals, but I know

1044
00:38:39,724 --> 00:38:42,510
many people are interested. So first up, tell

1045
00:38:42,510 --> 00:38:44,260
us, I guess, what is the difference between

1046
00:38:44,260 --> 00:38:46,368
a cereal and a series

1047
00:38:46,903 --> 00:38:50,746
and just a novel. So the very basic

1048
00:38:50,963 --> 00:38:53,288
rule of thumb, and these And I just

1049
00:38:53,288 --> 00:38:55,043
wanna start by saying that these are these

1050
00:38:55,043 --> 00:38:56,398
categories are very flexible.

1051
00:38:57,196 --> 00:38:59,588
You know, these are all modern categories. There's

1052
00:38:59,588 --> 00:39:00,865
just so many different ways to tell a

1053
00:39:00,865 --> 00:39:02,380
story. But my rule of thumb is that

1054
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:03,294
a cereal

1055
00:39:04,387 --> 00:39:07,676
consist of a story with nested

1056
00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:09,646
story arts.

1057
00:39:10,777 --> 00:39:13,649
Now, you can have a novel series that

1058
00:39:13,649 --> 00:39:17,099
has nested story arcs. But generally, a novel

1059
00:39:17,158 --> 00:39:19,811
itself has a story arc. It's either

1060
00:39:20,125 --> 00:39:22,444
the 3 act structure, the 7 act structure.

1061
00:39:22,764 --> 00:39:25,244
Save the cat, the hero's journey. That is

1062
00:39:25,244 --> 00:39:28,291
the main structure. The individual character arcs in

1063
00:39:28,291 --> 00:39:30,907
a novel will will dip and turn, but

1064
00:39:30,907 --> 00:39:33,523
they all adhere to that 1 main story

1065
00:39:33,523 --> 00:39:34,023
structure

1066
00:39:34,554 --> 00:39:35,054
with

1067
00:39:35,444 --> 00:39:37,761
some novel series or an actual, what I

1068
00:39:37,761 --> 00:39:39,359
would call a legitimate cereal.

1069
00:39:39,918 --> 00:39:42,576
There could be a very long story arc

1070
00:39:43,369 --> 00:39:46,890
while there's smaller story arcs within it. And,

1071
00:39:46,970 --> 00:39:48,970
of course, the the best example that we

1072
00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:50,670
can give for this these days is

1073
00:39:51,222 --> 00:39:54,244
television show. Like, you have something, and I'm

1074
00:39:54,244 --> 00:39:55,834
just pulling 1 out, like Game of thrones

1075
00:39:55,834 --> 00:39:58,958
or or some long running show that has

1076
00:39:59,347 --> 00:40:00,800
big story arcs

1077
00:40:01,172 --> 00:40:03,101
that go across multiple seasons

1078
00:40:03,553 --> 00:40:06,012
even. But then you have the smaller story

1079
00:40:06,012 --> 00:40:08,182
arcs that are the monster of the week

1080
00:40:08,182 --> 00:40:10,101
or the dragon of the week or the

1081
00:40:10,101 --> 00:40:12,098
the the killer of the week whatever that

1082
00:40:12,098 --> 00:40:15,556
might be. And those individual story arcs

1083
00:40:16,030 --> 00:40:18,829
kind of exists not quite independently, but they

1084
00:40:18,829 --> 00:40:21,950
do exist within the larger story arc and

1085
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:25,239
feed into it. But aren't necessarily the same

1086
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,010
as larger story. So that's very short and

1087
00:40:29,068 --> 00:40:29,568
definitely

1088
00:40:30,186 --> 00:40:30,639
incomplete

1089
00:40:31,318 --> 00:40:33,317
description of how I would describe cereals. And

1090
00:40:33,317 --> 00:40:34,195
why some cereals,

1091
00:40:34,755 --> 00:40:35,314
for instance,

1092
00:40:36,513 --> 00:40:38,431
1 piece, which is popular right now because

1093
00:40:38,431 --> 00:40:40,596
the live action that's a mango that has

1094
00:40:40,596 --> 00:40:44,649
over 1000 volumes. Like, these types of stories

1095
00:40:44,649 --> 00:40:46,398
can go on. And they're just searching for

1096
00:40:46,398 --> 00:40:48,067
the 1 piece. They're searching for a thing.

1097
00:40:48,558 --> 00:40:50,622
That's the whole long story arc, but you

1098
00:40:50,622 --> 00:40:52,709
have the shorter story arcs that are just

1099
00:40:53,003 --> 00:40:53,900
absolutely brilliant

1100
00:40:54,590 --> 00:40:56,972
that rest on that longer.

1101
00:40:57,543 --> 00:40:59,639
Story arc. So that's my.

1102
00:41:00,335 --> 00:41:01,473
What, a lot of people

1103
00:41:02,090 --> 00:41:04,164
hear about the success some people are having

1104
00:41:04,164 --> 00:41:06,556
on cereal platforms and I get this question

1105
00:41:06,556 --> 00:41:08,799
all the time. Should I just post my

1106
00:41:08,799 --> 00:41:11,525
chapters on serial platforms

1107
00:41:12,137 --> 00:41:14,284
of my... Like, take my finnish novel and

1108
00:41:14,284 --> 00:41:16,364
just post to by chapter on a serial

1109
00:41:16,364 --> 00:41:19,405
platform, and I generally say no because most

1110
00:41:20,255 --> 00:41:22,559
serial ex... I don't know what they call

1111
00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:24,329
chapters are not the same as

1112
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,640
actual chapters in a book as you say

1113
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,219
that that you need to keep people reading

1114
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:32,000
through. Right? Unless you have something. So what

1115
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,611
do you think about that Can you take

1116
00:41:33,611 --> 00:41:35,764
just any novel and just post it on

1117
00:41:35,764 --> 00:41:37,518
a platform for serial writing?

1118
00:41:38,315 --> 00:41:41,287
Absolutely, you can. A lot of romance writers

1119
00:41:41,998 --> 00:41:43,514
do that. I think I and I use

1120
00:41:43,514 --> 00:41:45,509
romance writers because they're certainly the biggest ones

1121
00:41:45,509 --> 00:41:47,902
you're taking advantage of that. They treat it

1122
00:41:47,902 --> 00:41:49,912
as a funnel to their books.

1123
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:52,864
So when you have a novel and you're

1124
00:41:52,864 --> 00:41:54,539
splitting it up and you're posting the chapters,

1125
00:41:54,938 --> 00:41:57,345
you're serial utilizing it. It's not a serial,

1126
00:41:57,505 --> 00:41:58,880
but it is being serial.

1127
00:41:59,496 --> 00:42:01,987
And if if people are comfortable

1128
00:42:02,443 --> 00:42:05,169
with that, it's It can be a great

1129
00:42:05,169 --> 00:42:06,865
way to funnel readers

1130
00:42:07,323 --> 00:42:09,019
into your book

1131
00:42:09,476 --> 00:42:09,976
ecosystem

1132
00:42:10,433 --> 00:42:13,087
into buying the books. I would stress

1133
00:42:13,637 --> 00:42:15,701
1, know your biz... Your know your own

1134
00:42:15,701 --> 00:42:16,414
business model,

1135
00:42:17,049 --> 00:42:19,112
know your own comfort zone and know your

1136
00:42:19,112 --> 00:42:19,509
readers.

1137
00:42:20,065 --> 00:42:20,565
Because

1138
00:42:21,112 --> 00:42:22,010
serial readers

1139
00:42:23,022 --> 00:42:26,045
and book readers don't always overlap. So you

1140
00:42:26,045 --> 00:42:28,375
can grab some serial readers with a serial

1141
00:42:28,512 --> 00:42:28,829
novel.

1142
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:32,350
And they may not buy the book. You

1143
00:42:32,350 --> 00:42:33,944
may get some people who will look at

1144
00:42:33,944 --> 00:42:35,619
a cereal ago. I'll wait until it's done

1145
00:42:35,619 --> 00:42:37,133
and by the book. And then you're gonna

1146
00:42:37,133 --> 00:42:39,545
have some overlap. But I think it's possible.

1147
00:42:39,944 --> 00:42:43,144
But again, I really caution people no know

1148
00:42:43,144 --> 00:42:45,324
your own business model what you're doing

1149
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,356
know your audience is... Are they people who

1150
00:42:48,356 --> 00:42:49,554
read cereals at all.

1151
00:42:50,353 --> 00:42:52,350
For instance, like the thriller novel,

1152
00:42:53,722 --> 00:42:54,120
demographic.

1153
00:42:54,759 --> 00:42:56,035
They're not big on cereals.

1154
00:42:56,513 --> 00:42:58,587
Not not know all. Yeah. Not at all.

1155
00:42:59,145 --> 00:43:02,416
But if you are writing, like, lit Rpg,

1156
00:43:02,989 --> 00:43:05,630
or you're running romance, some form of romance?

1157
00:43:06,349 --> 00:43:08,929
Yes. You can get a big, big

1158
00:43:09,309 --> 00:43:12,519
leadership serial your work. Just be aware of

1159
00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:14,908
how that feeds into the whole ecosystem that

1160
00:43:14,908 --> 00:43:16,341
you're building for your business.

1161
00:43:17,456 --> 00:43:19,389
And so what are the main platforms

1162
00:43:20,179 --> 00:43:21,612
for selling cereals.

1163
00:43:22,487 --> 00:43:23,522
So there's...

1164
00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:26,150
Rh is a new up and coming 1.

1165
00:43:26,468 --> 00:43:29,031
I'm on Re. I really like their approach

1166
00:43:29,031 --> 00:43:30,705
and like, what they're doing. A lot of

1167
00:43:30,705 --> 00:43:31,741
people look at it and see if there's

1168
00:43:31,741 --> 00:43:33,096
a lot of romance sauce there, but it

1169
00:43:33,096 --> 00:43:34,769
is for all genres, For instance, my friend

1170
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:37,969
Gina that I mentioned. She's actually serial realizing

1171
00:43:37,969 --> 00:43:40,514
her historical fiction novel. It's not romance at

1172
00:43:40,514 --> 00:43:42,582
all. She's doing that on Rain. So there's

1173
00:43:42,582 --> 00:43:45,223
a lot of opportunity there on Rh. But

1174
00:43:45,223 --> 00:43:47,690
there are other platforms. Some authors are on

1175
00:43:48,088 --> 00:43:48,327
Patreon,

1176
00:43:49,203 --> 00:43:51,989
which has its own issues. It's depending on

1177
00:43:51,989 --> 00:43:52,546
what you're writing.

1178
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,960
Some people self host it, which you can

1179
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,440
do these days. Of course, with wordpress, you

1180
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:58,559
can do it on wix. You can do

1181
00:43:58,559 --> 00:43:59,920
it on Ka. You can do it on

1182
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:00,480
Squarespace.

1183
00:44:01,131 --> 00:44:03,219
There are a lot more options for

1184
00:44:03,671 --> 00:44:06,211
writers these days to either self host their

1185
00:44:06,211 --> 00:44:09,148
own subscriptions or use other platforms.

1186
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,788
To do it. And, there are a lot

1187
00:44:11,788 --> 00:44:13,618
of different platforms out there. I will say

1188
00:44:13,618 --> 00:44:16,722
this that these days, platforms like Watt pad,

1189
00:44:17,532 --> 00:44:20,556
Royal Road, Ink kit. They have their own

1190
00:44:20,556 --> 00:44:22,784
specific demographics. Like on Royal Road, it's very

1191
00:44:22,784 --> 00:44:26,046
much Fantasy and Lit Rpg. Watt still heavily,

1192
00:44:26,698 --> 00:44:29,244
romance oriented. If you're gonna be giving away

1193
00:44:29,244 --> 00:44:30,777
free chapters on those platforms,

1194
00:44:31,232 --> 00:44:33,061
then look carefully at the demographics.

1195
00:44:33,554 --> 00:44:35,864
But there's so many options these days. And

1196
00:44:36,024 --> 00:44:37,219
I do go into that in my book,

1197
00:44:37,378 --> 00:44:39,949
a coming an unstoppable storyteller or different different

1198
00:44:40,007 --> 00:44:40,507
options

1199
00:44:40,818 --> 00:44:43,921
for on posting. They're still V and radish,

1200
00:44:44,478 --> 00:44:48,551
which are ways to get a money but

1201
00:44:48,551 --> 00:44:50,698
it's it's more like the Kindle unlimited model.

1202
00:44:50,858 --> 00:44:52,846
Like, you know, people are subscribing and you're

1203
00:44:52,846 --> 00:44:55,095
just getting a a piece of the pie

1204
00:44:55,469 --> 00:44:57,219
in that model. So it just depends on

1205
00:44:57,219 --> 00:45:00,734
what you're tolerance level is for how much

1206
00:45:00,734 --> 00:45:02,086
control you have over your property.

1207
00:45:02,881 --> 00:45:05,449
Yeah. Definitely read those contracts. And.

1208
00:45:05,903 --> 00:45:08,463
When you And when we say contracts people,

1209
00:45:08,621 --> 00:45:10,688
we mean the terms of conditions when you

1210
00:45:10,688 --> 00:45:12,278
upload a file to a site.

1211
00:45:13,312 --> 00:45:15,800
Right It's a contract. Terms of service. Yes.

1212
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,840
Absolutely. Yes. Very good. There are some

1213
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:22,840
some difficult ones, let's say. And whenever you

1214
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:24,315
up, like... We're recording

1215
00:45:24,614 --> 00:45:26,614
June 20 24. You could go to 1

1216
00:45:26,614 --> 00:45:28,214
of these sites now, and it might be

1217
00:45:28,214 --> 00:45:30,375
fine, and then you upload another book in

1218
00:45:30,375 --> 00:45:32,144
a month, time or it might be different.

1219
00:45:32,304 --> 00:45:33,978
So I think it's very important to look

1220
00:45:33,978 --> 00:45:36,609
at this. So in terms of, like, you

1221
00:45:36,609 --> 00:45:38,363
mentioned the demographics are different,

1222
00:45:38,842 --> 00:45:42,122
you write different kinds of books and cereals.

1223
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:43,737
So how are you marketing

1224
00:45:44,431 --> 00:45:46,762
cereals differently than you are marketing

1225
00:45:47,218 --> 00:45:47,536
books,

1226
00:45:48,188 --> 00:45:50,736
So with books, I'm much more focused on...

1227
00:45:50,895 --> 00:45:52,647
Now I'm not running a lot of advertisements

1228
00:45:52,647 --> 00:45:54,319
right now, but I'm gearing up to do

1229
00:45:54,319 --> 00:45:55,991
that for the last half of this year.

1230
00:45:56,644 --> 00:45:58,322
As I've put all the pieces. I've been

1231
00:45:58,322 --> 00:46:00,481
busy for those last, I think year almost

1232
00:46:00,481 --> 00:46:01,999
been putting all the pieces in place for

1233
00:46:01,999 --> 00:46:04,317
my own business model. So for books, I'm

1234
00:46:04,317 --> 00:46:06,155
going to be using things like Facebook ads.

1235
00:46:06,569 --> 00:46:09,605
More. And for instance, the Queen's A Re,

1236
00:46:09,765 --> 00:46:11,623
which is a love tri,

1237
00:46:12,322 --> 00:46:13,680
fantasy Romance novel.

1238
00:46:14,333 --> 00:46:15,311
I did

1239
00:46:15,687 --> 00:46:19,293
serial that. And I actually serial it

1240
00:46:19,669 --> 00:46:22,479
early access on Rh for paying followers.

1241
00:46:23,189 --> 00:46:25,820
I then put much later down the road,

1242
00:46:26,299 --> 00:46:29,648
put chapters up for free on W pad

1243
00:46:29,648 --> 00:46:31,482
and Ink kit and an archive of our

1244
00:46:31,482 --> 00:46:31,801
own.

1245
00:46:32,374 --> 00:46:34,233
So people can go read the whole book

1246
00:46:34,692 --> 00:46:37,509
for free. But then I will be doing

1247
00:46:38,607 --> 00:46:41,498
advertisements for the buying the book itself. And

1248
00:46:41,498 --> 00:46:43,566
possibly doing a kick kickstarter down the road

1249
00:46:43,566 --> 00:46:46,430
for doing an audio version or a special

1250
00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:49,790
bound edition for it. So there's a lot

1251
00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:53,480
of different ways I'm trying to funnel people

1252
00:46:53,778 --> 00:46:56,809
into my author ecosystem, And I know you've

1253
00:46:56,809 --> 00:46:59,137
talked to Joe Sal laurie and and he's,

1254
00:46:59,296 --> 00:47:01,231
you know, somebody I really admire

1255
00:47:01,768 --> 00:47:03,921
much bigger brain than I have. Would say.

1256
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:05,755
But 1 thing I took away from a

1257
00:47:05,755 --> 00:47:07,110
lot of his lessons is,

1258
00:47:07,763 --> 00:47:09,593
be aware of all the different ways you

1259
00:47:09,593 --> 00:47:11,343
could reach out and reach your audience.

1260
00:47:11,821 --> 00:47:13,810
And so I do have a subs stack,

1261
00:47:14,446 --> 00:47:16,197
the script, which is my blog.

1262
00:47:16,848 --> 00:47:19,074
There, I focus less on the fiction and

1263
00:47:19,074 --> 00:47:21,538
more on the non fiction, which is something

1264
00:47:21,538 --> 00:47:24,161
else that I write because, you know, non

1265
00:47:24,161 --> 00:47:26,244
fiction people aren't gonna be on Rem. So

1266
00:47:26,324 --> 00:47:27,924
I know that if I wanna reach other

1267
00:47:27,924 --> 00:47:30,405
authors to talk about my books on writing

1268
00:47:30,405 --> 00:47:31,204
and my craft books,

1269
00:47:32,005 --> 00:47:33,525
B is a bad place for that. I

1270
00:47:33,525 --> 00:47:35,619
need to be doing it on my. Victorian

1271
00:47:35,619 --> 00:47:38,592
blog. So there's just a lot of moving

1272
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:41,842
parts on something like that, but I think

1273
00:47:41,922 --> 00:47:42,821
I would be using

1274
00:47:43,611 --> 00:47:45,304
advertising for my

1275
00:47:45,759 --> 00:47:47,349
books more than I would be doing for

1276
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:48,088
my cereals

1277
00:47:49,020 --> 00:47:49,657
so far.

1278
00:47:50,309 --> 00:47:51,769
Cereals as a

1279
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:53,210
popular format,

1280
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:57,030
subscription platforms, particularly are still very new. So

1281
00:47:57,110 --> 00:47:58,550
I think there's still a lot of poking

1282
00:47:58,550 --> 00:48:01,989
and prodding authors who are using subscription model,

1283
00:48:02,307 --> 00:48:04,851
on what kind of advertisement actually works well.

1284
00:48:05,885 --> 00:48:07,476
Haven't seen a lot of success on that

1285
00:48:07,476 --> 00:48:09,807
yet. So it's still we're relying heavily on

1286
00:48:09,807 --> 00:48:12,123
organic growth. Which is not ideal, but we're

1287
00:48:12,123 --> 00:48:12,762
figuring it out.

1288
00:48:13,641 --> 00:48:14,940
Yeah. Yeah. Because

1289
00:48:15,573 --> 00:48:17,965
these are borrow, like, kind of a borrow

1290
00:48:17,965 --> 00:48:19,880
model aren't, they were a cereal, like, or

1291
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,273
they pay a micro payment or they get

1292
00:48:22,273 --> 00:48:23,309
it as part of their,

1293
00:48:24,426 --> 00:48:24,926
subscription

1294
00:48:25,317 --> 00:48:27,543
So it is kind of a difficult to

1295
00:48:27,543 --> 00:48:29,530
get the return on investment with, say, a

1296
00:48:29,609 --> 00:48:31,994
Facebook ad. Unless I guess it's a really

1297
00:48:31,994 --> 00:48:33,345
long thing or like you say, like, a

1298
00:48:33,345 --> 00:48:35,594
book 1 in a series or... But, no.

1299
00:48:35,755 --> 00:48:37,835
I think it's so interesting how I call

1300
00:48:37,835 --> 00:48:40,235
it the kind of splinter of effect of,

1301
00:48:40,875 --> 00:48:43,528
so many platforms for different type of readers

1302
00:48:43,528 --> 00:48:45,686
and consumers because you could also do or

1303
00:48:45,686 --> 00:48:46,186
audio

1304
00:48:46,565 --> 00:48:49,442
cereals, which, I guess, Audio fiction, You know.

1305
00:48:49,602 --> 00:48:51,735
So let's just mention podcasting. So you've got

1306
00:48:51,933 --> 00:48:52,648
2 podcasts.

1307
00:48:53,204 --> 00:48:56,145
How does this fit into your business and

1308
00:48:56,145 --> 00:48:56,963
your marketing.

1309
00:48:57,655 --> 00:48:59,499
So here's the thing that I think I

1310
00:48:59,499 --> 00:49:01,497
get back to talking about knowing your own

1311
00:49:01,497 --> 00:49:02,216
business model.

1312
00:49:02,775 --> 00:49:05,034
So my business model is not

1313
00:49:05,412 --> 00:49:08,543
down. My business not model is not I

1314
00:49:08,543 --> 00:49:10,619
write dark romance, and that's all I do.

1315
00:49:11,098 --> 00:49:13,493
My business model is me as a person.

1316
00:49:14,131 --> 00:49:15,648
Me as a writer and the voice that

1317
00:49:15,807 --> 00:49:16,925
I bring to my stories.

1318
00:49:17,499 --> 00:49:19,897
I want people to read my stories because

1319
00:49:20,057 --> 00:49:23,173
I wrote them, not because they're a love

1320
00:49:23,173 --> 00:49:25,331
tri ed fantasy with dragon shifters.

1321
00:49:25,971 --> 00:49:26,471
So

1322
00:49:27,264 --> 00:49:29,333
For me, it's about a lot about personal

1323
00:49:29,333 --> 00:49:32,437
marketing. The author A podcast, I started a

1324
00:49:32,437 --> 00:49:33,790
long time ago when I had a completely

1325
00:49:33,790 --> 00:49:36,349
different business model But I've morph a little

1326
00:49:36,349 --> 00:49:38,813
bit to talk about more about mindset, process

1327
00:49:38,813 --> 00:49:40,959
and productivity, which is a new tagline for

1328
00:49:40,959 --> 00:49:43,502
it. And because I am a productivity coach,

1329
00:49:45,262 --> 00:49:46,848
I talked to a lot of authors and

1330
00:49:46,848 --> 00:49:49,465
creative about what it takes to be productive

1331
00:49:49,465 --> 00:49:51,448
and what kind of productivity tools you can

1332
00:49:51,448 --> 00:49:54,084
use. So I'm focusing more on that on

1333
00:49:54,084 --> 00:49:57,183
the author a side. The... Around the writers

1334
00:49:57,183 --> 00:49:59,224
table, I'll be honest with you. That's a

1335
00:49:59,424 --> 00:50:01,021
fun gig. And that's me with 2 of

1336
00:50:01,021 --> 00:50:01,739
my best friends.

1337
00:50:02,378 --> 00:50:03,596
We all had great

1338
00:50:04,213 --> 00:50:06,230
conversations around writing and creativity.

1339
00:50:06,608 --> 00:50:08,306
And so we started that

1340
00:50:08,619 --> 00:50:10,054
because we just wanted to share what we

1341
00:50:10,054 --> 00:50:11,568
were talking about. So that's this more of

1342
00:50:11,568 --> 00:50:14,916
a vanity project really, but III do love

1343
00:50:14,916 --> 00:50:16,644
what we've talked about it. I encourage

1344
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:18,428
people to go listen to that because we've

1345
00:50:18,428 --> 00:50:21,202
covered some fascinating topics. That 1 doesn't quite

1346
00:50:21,202 --> 00:50:23,500
fit into my model so much is to

1347
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:24,000
just

1348
00:50:24,309 --> 00:50:26,059
something that's fun and gets my voice out

1349
00:50:26,059 --> 00:50:27,888
there. But, yeah, that's that's kind of how

1350
00:50:27,888 --> 00:50:30,615
it is. I really think that

1351
00:50:31,643 --> 00:50:33,001
I you've heard me mention this a lot

1352
00:50:33,001 --> 00:50:35,475
in this conversation about business models. And I

1353
00:50:35,475 --> 00:50:36,992
know in 1 of your earlier podcast you

1354
00:50:36,992 --> 00:50:38,769
were talking about Spear of destiny

1355
00:50:39,307 --> 00:50:40,046
and how

1356
00:50:40,518 --> 00:50:43,461
you're doing Kickstarter, and then you're also doing

1357
00:50:43,461 --> 00:50:45,291
pre order, and the pre order of course

1358
00:50:45,291 --> 00:50:47,770
is available later, people get the starter,

1359
00:50:48,325 --> 00:50:49,753
sign up for the Kickstarter gonna get the

1360
00:50:49,753 --> 00:50:50,308
book earlier.

1361
00:50:50,943 --> 00:50:53,005
But to me that really represents what we're

1362
00:50:53,005 --> 00:50:55,440
talking about when we talk about splinter because

1363
00:50:55,638 --> 00:50:57,704
That sounds it's like a negative term. To

1364
00:50:57,704 --> 00:50:59,692
me, it's like, it's reaching readers where they

1365
00:50:59,692 --> 00:51:01,599
are. There's some people who aren't gonna support

1366
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:04,243
your kickstarter. They're just not. There's some people

1367
00:51:04,243 --> 00:51:07,040
who are love pre orders, and so they're

1368
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:08,798
gonna go and do the pre order. There's

1369
00:51:08,798 --> 00:51:10,796
some people who just want the audiobook. They're

1370
00:51:10,796 --> 00:51:12,645
just gonna wait for the audiobook. And so

1371
00:51:12,645 --> 00:51:14,018
you of course, have multiple

1372
00:51:14,391 --> 00:51:17,169
different versions of audiobooks in different ways People

1373
00:51:17,169 --> 00:51:18,225
can access audiobooks.

1374
00:51:18,836 --> 00:51:20,741
It's all about reaching people where they are.

1375
00:51:21,074 --> 00:51:22,912
So when I look at my business model,

1376
00:51:23,072 --> 00:51:25,070
which is selling me as an author and

1377
00:51:25,070 --> 00:51:25,710
my voice.

1378
00:51:26,349 --> 00:51:28,666
It's less, oh, here's a podcast on the

1379
00:51:28,666 --> 00:51:29,965
side, it's

1380
00:51:30,438 --> 00:51:32,430
here's something that people can get to know

1381
00:51:32,430 --> 00:51:34,342
me. And in fact, I've started doing a

1382
00:51:34,342 --> 00:51:36,971
a daily short on Youtube called coffee with

1383
00:51:37,130 --> 00:51:38,404
Kim where I just talk about what I'm

1384
00:51:38,404 --> 00:51:40,574
gonna be doing that day. And it's just

1385
00:51:40,574 --> 00:51:41,934
to get people to know me as a

1386
00:51:41,934 --> 00:51:44,094
writer and be interested in me. So that...

1387
00:51:44,255 --> 00:51:46,014
But that's my business model, and that's not

1388
00:51:46,014 --> 00:51:48,268
the business model for other people. It's pretty

1389
00:51:48,268 --> 00:51:49,306
much my business model.

1390
00:51:50,822 --> 00:51:52,817
Not everybody. But certainly the 2 people in

1391
00:51:52,817 --> 00:51:55,371
this room for virtual room, right? But your

1392
00:51:55,371 --> 00:51:57,459
room right now. But I think it's interesting.

1393
00:51:57,618 --> 00:51:58,516
I do feel

1394
00:51:58,893 --> 00:52:00,168
this is more and more important You know,

1395
00:52:00,327 --> 00:52:02,319
I've said many times now doubled down on

1396
00:52:02,319 --> 00:52:05,204
being human. Yeah. And kind of pre proving

1397
00:52:05,204 --> 00:52:07,118
that you are a human and that you're...

1398
00:52:07,357 --> 00:52:09,271
We're all kinda weird in our way and

1399
00:52:09,271 --> 00:52:10,866
some people like us, and some people don't

1400
00:52:10,866 --> 00:52:12,914
and that's fine. And but that

1401
00:52:13,434 --> 00:52:15,515
this constant... I was thinking about my use

1402
00:52:15,515 --> 00:52:17,355
of social media the other day, and I

1403
00:52:17,355 --> 00:52:18,894
was thinking. Do you know what I am

1404
00:52:19,195 --> 00:52:22,235
using social media now more as a proof

1405
00:52:22,235 --> 00:52:25,676
that I am human, Mh. Posting photos and

1406
00:52:25,676 --> 00:52:27,907
kind of things like that, in a... Much

1407
00:52:27,907 --> 00:52:29,580
more than I used to. It used to

1408
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:31,970
be more about, like, marketing or whatever. Now

1409
00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:32,885
it's sort of

1410
00:52:33,184 --> 00:52:35,585
evidence, more evidence that I'm human. So I

1411
00:52:35,585 --> 00:52:37,585
love that coffee with Kim idea. I don't

1412
00:52:37,585 --> 00:52:40,398
wanna do it myself, but I think that's

1413
00:52:40,398 --> 00:52:42,715
that's really interesting, and I and for people

1414
00:52:42,715 --> 00:52:44,872
listening, doing more of that more about you.

1415
00:52:45,032 --> 00:52:46,790
Mh. I think is a really good idea.

1416
00:52:47,204 --> 00:52:48,958
So we are out of time. Where can

1417
00:52:48,958 --> 00:52:51,190
people find you? I know. Where can people

1418
00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:53,525
find you and your books and your podcast

1419
00:52:53,742 --> 00:52:56,387
online? Also, I do have an online hub,

1420
00:52:56,626 --> 00:52:57,978
I call it a hub, but it's a

1421
00:52:57,978 --> 00:53:01,319
website. It's house of york dot info, so

1422
00:53:01,319 --> 00:53:02,831
that's House of York all 1 word.

1423
00:53:03,563 --> 00:53:05,159
Dot INF0.

1424
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:08,033
You'll have links there to all my books.

1425
00:53:08,192 --> 00:53:10,347
There's a section on my books. There's a

1426
00:53:10,347 --> 00:53:12,513
linked to all my podcast podcasts, and also,

1427
00:53:12,672 --> 00:53:15,769
my podcast shows. So any interviews I've done

1428
00:53:15,769 --> 00:53:18,072
are on that page as well. And also

1429
00:53:18,072 --> 00:53:20,771
to joining up for my online membership club,

1430
00:53:21,184 --> 00:53:23,981
for writers called 1000000 words club. It's on

1431
00:53:23,981 --> 00:53:26,239
discord, and it's... It's focused more on productivity

1432
00:53:26,379 --> 00:53:28,456
and process than craft. So it's a little

1433
00:53:28,456 --> 00:53:30,269
bit different, but we have a great group

1434
00:53:30,389 --> 00:53:31,898
people there. So you can find out all

1435
00:53:31,898 --> 00:53:34,360
about that at house of york dot info.

1436
00:53:34,836 --> 00:53:36,663
Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time,

1437
00:53:36,901 --> 00:53:39,443
Kim. That was great. It's been wonderful, Joanna.

1438
00:53:39,681 --> 00:53:40,412
Thank you so much.

1439
00:53:43,359 --> 00:53:44,951
So I hit you found the episode with

1440
00:53:45,031 --> 00:53:47,977
Kim interesting. However, you choose to write and

1441
00:53:47,977 --> 00:53:50,538
publish. And I want to reiterate her message

1442
00:53:50,538 --> 00:53:51,333
towards the end there.

1443
00:53:52,208 --> 00:53:54,593
My business model is me as a person,

1444
00:53:55,070 --> 00:53:57,138
me as a writer, and the voice I

1445
00:53:57,138 --> 00:53:58,172
bring to my stories.

1446
00:53:58,664 --> 00:54:00,818
This is exactly what I mean by doubling

1447
00:54:00,818 --> 00:54:03,053
down or being human. So have a think

1448
00:54:03,053 --> 00:54:04,648
about how you can start to do that

1449
00:54:04,648 --> 00:54:05,766
in your author business.

1450
00:54:06,498 --> 00:54:08,094
As ever, I love to hear your thoughts.

1451
00:54:08,652 --> 00:54:10,407
Please leave a comment on the podcast share

1452
00:54:10,407 --> 00:54:12,481
notes at the creative pen dot com or

1453
00:54:12,481 --> 00:54:14,634
on the Youtube channel or message me on

1454
00:54:14,634 --> 00:54:16,960
x at the creative Pen. Or email me

1455
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,129
to Ina at the creative pen dot com

1456
00:54:19,186 --> 00:54:21,094
and send me pictures of where you're listening.

1457
00:54:21,650 --> 00:54:24,368
Next Monday, we have another craft show. And

1458
00:54:24,447 --> 00:54:25,902
I'm talking about writing

1459
00:54:26,277 --> 00:54:29,380
emotion into our books with Ro morris. In

1460
00:54:29,380 --> 00:54:31,072
the meantime, happy writing

1461
00:54:31,383 --> 00:54:33,372
and I'll see you next time. Thanks for

1462
00:54:33,372 --> 00:54:35,839
listening today. I hope you found it helpful.

1463
00:54:37,192 --> 00:54:38,408
You can find the back

1464
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:40,789
out and show notes at the creative pin

1465
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:42,403
dot com forward slash podcast.

1466
00:54:43,097 --> 00:54:45,246
And you can get your free author blueprint

1467
00:54:45,246 --> 00:54:46,463
at the creative

1468
00:54:46,773 --> 00:54:48,438
dot com forward slash blueprint.

1469
00:54:49,786 --> 00:54:51,768
If you'd like to connect, you can find

1470
00:54:51,768 --> 00:54:54,519
me on Facebook and x at the creator

1471
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:58,001
of Pen or on Instagram and Facebook at

1472
00:54:58,058 --> 00:54:59,489
j f pen author.

1473
00:55:00,921 --> 00:55:03,148
Happy writing, and I'll see you next time.