Have you ever had somebody look you right in the eyes, and I mean really look
at you and say exactly the thing that you needed to hear?
The tone was right, the facial expression was right, they maybe even reached
over, touched your hand or your arm, or might have even been so bold as to grab
your face in a very safe way, and this is the thing they need you to hear.
And then they say something like, no, you're right, I hear you,
and I'm going to do better.
And in that moment, did you think, okay, that felt amazing, that's a good talk,
we're good, we're on the same page.
But then, and I think this is the real question, how many times did that exact
same scene play out before you start to wonder, hold on, why does this keep happening?
Why do I keep having the same conversation even when it does feel good?
It's much better than it's been in the past.
And why does it even keep feeling resolved without anything actually changing?
Hey everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
And today I have a very special episode for you.
And it is not just because my daughter Mackie is on the podcast,
but it's because of the content that we go over.
We're going to get into something that I think will resonate with so many of
you because we've been using a phrase around the house for a little while now,
and I mentioned it on the podcast before. We're calling them mouth sounds.
People make the right mouth sounds, even the right facial expressions.
So mouth sounds are when somebody says all the right things.
They use the right words. They have the right tone of voice.
They look at you and they look right at your face. And in that moment, it feels amazing.
You believe them because it's so much better than them shutting down,
blaming you or getting really angry.
Of course, you want to believe them. Why wouldn't you?
Because this is what is so fascinating about the mouth sounds.
If you said those words, you really believe you would mean them.
If you told somebody, you know what? This makes so much sense.
I get it now. I'm going to do better.
You are thinking to yourself, oh, I would. I would actually go try and do better.
I would listen to some podcasts. I'd read a book. go to therapy,
we would start to create an amazing life now that I have said this thing.
So when somebody says that to you, you're projecting a little bit of your own
character, your own integrity onto them.
You're assuming that they operate the way that you operate. And that is not
a bad thing, it's just a thing.
That is one of the sneakiest forms of projection there is. Now notice I didn't
say a negative or a bad thing, but it's pretty tricky.
And here's what blew my mind in this episode, and Mackie and I really get into
this, that it works both ways.
The person making the mouth sounds, they might be projecting too.
Because in their world, maybe everybody says they're really going to try harder.
Even whether they think it consciously or subconsciously, then things get in the way.
People don't necessarily follow through on those things that they say.
So what if they're not being intentionally deceptive?
In their experience, this is just what people say. You say the thing,
you maybe make the face, the tension drops, everybody moves on.
That's how it works. You meant to follow up on it, but you're not even being
honest with yourself about what if I don't even really know what I need to do next?
Because I feel good. I just said the right words. You looked happy with what I said.
So what if you have two people that are projecting completely different realities
onto the same conversation and both of them walk away thinking they understood
what just happened? Great talk, both of you.
But what if they didn't understand what actually just happened and they weren't
even close? This is actually where the anxious avoidant attachment dynamic comes in.
And Mackie and I walk through what I think is one of the most important frameworks
that I've discovered over the last year or so and that I've been working with in my practice.
I did a two-part podcast episode about the fictional couple Jack and Jill a
few months ago, and we go through that in detail again today of how the anxiously attached person,
Jill, in the scenario, and Jack, the avoidantly attached, are literally wired
by their childhoods to find each other and to find each other familiar and attractive
and not in some abstract theoretical way.
I'm talking about your nervous system recognizes something familiar and tells
you, oh, this one, this is the one, this feels like home.
And then I'm going to create some narratives, make up some stories about why it's different though.
Because even if you had an amazing childhood experience, there are still these
wounds that are left there of not feeling heard or understood or not having
your feelings or your emotions validated.
So even when your home wasn't particularly emotionally safe,
again, even if you weren't aware of what that even looked like or what that
felt like, you're going to find something familiar in your partner.
And then with Mackie, let's just say that she's literally checking boxes in
real time as I'm reading through the anxious attachment profile.
You get to watch go check, check, check.
And then when we get to the avoidant side, then she's saying,
oh, I don't resonate with that at all.
But oh my gosh, I have dated that person, which is kind of the whole point.
Because in a perfect world, you're both going to heal through the relationship,
heal yourself individually through the relationship.
What I love about this conversation today is that Mackie also brought a list.
She came prepared with everything that she's learned from a recent breakup,
being single again in her twenties, what she wishes she'd known,
what she's taken forward.
And then things like feel it, even when your instinct is to run from And we
even talk about what that means, not just feel your feelings,
because I think a lot of times people are left to think, I don't want to feel them.
How long do I have to feel them? What do I even do when I am feeling them?
She talks about how no feeling is ever final. There's no correct timeline for healing.
And one that I think is really going to resonate, sometimes being the one who
leaves means you are admitting or acknowledging that you're handing the other
person the gift of getting to play the victim and learning how to accept that
and to be somewhat okay with that can be a real challenge,
especially when you're the one that feels like you've been trying so hard.
So whether you're in a relationship right now where you keep having the same
conversations and it seems that nothing is changing, or you just got out of
one and you're trying to make sense of what will feel a little bit like nonsense
or trying to figure out what happened.
Or maybe you're a parent watching your kids go through it.
And before we jump in, I want to tell you about something that I've been pouring
myself into that will go along with a lot of what we talk about today.
And I don't talk about it within the episode itself.
Go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic and get on the wait list for the announcement
of the re-release of my magnetic marriage course.
Because a lot of what Mackie and I talk about today, why you found your partner
in the first place, why it essentially had to happen the way that it did.
I cover all of that in the course. And here's what I would love for you to take away from today.
Nobody comes off of the factory floor with the tools they need to communicate
effectively, to be emotionally mature, to show up with consistency,
to create a magnetic marriage, because you truly don't know what you don't know.
And I don't say that is just a catchphrase.
I say it because it's the reality of every single couple that I've worked with,
including my own marriage of over 36 years, the 1,500 plus couples that I've
worked with in 20 years of being a couples therapist, that you actually do have
to go through challenges in a relationship.
Because we all do, it makes sense that you'll need to go through them before
you can even realize you need different tools. And then, then actually comes the hard part.
You have to have the courage to pursue help. You have to be open and vulnerable
to suggest that you want something to change in your relationship.
And then you have to go on this hero's journey of finding help that actually works.
And there's a lot of help out there that I don't necessarily think does help.
There's even and some that can be to your detriment.
Then you're going to have to pay for it. You're actually going to have to watch
the things that you purchase. You're going to have to listen to things,
not just buy it to feel good.
Because a lot of times we buy things to feel good about the purchase and you'll
have to practice it, put whatever it is that you're learning into practice.
And that will also come with admitting other things that you don't know that
you don't know. And then this is the one that I think so many people are sitting with right now.
What if you're the only one willing to put in effort for change?
Or what if you're the one who is putting in the lion's share of the effort for
change? and I cover all of that in this course.
I also cover my four pillars of a connected conversation. I cover the losing
strategies in relationships that feel so natural you don't even realize that you're running them.
A lot of these things are things that we did bring into the relationship from
our childhood, our childhood adaptations that kept us alive. Thanks inner child.
Thanks champ. But now we need to let the big kids take over and start to heal
and start to learn to be more mature.
And I talk about what I call the paradoxical nature of help in general,
because if what felt natural actually worked all the time, then I would imagine
we'd all be perfectly happy and our relationships would be amazing all the time, right?
But it turns out that not talking about difficult things, kicking the can down
the road, retreating into our bunkers, those things don't work.
Blaming your partner doesn't work.
These things feel like they should help because we do them often.
We saw them modeled from our own parents and we even saw them done to us from our.
Those are the very things that are keeping you stuck. So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.
You can do it right now. Get on the wait list because this is not just another
course that you buy based on the little spark of hope that you feel when you
hear somebody like me saying these mouth sounds or when you go read a sales
page and feel really good.
This is a course that will change you in a way that you can't unchange.
And I know that is a bold thing to say, but it really is the cliche.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it. You won't be able to put that relationship
genie back in the bottle. and I have watched couples heal and grow time and time again.
And I've also watched people have the tools right in front of them.
And it's so uncomfortable that they just decide they'll do it later.
I've watched all that happen and I'll address that in this course.
So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.
Follow me on social media. I'm going to talk a lot more about that.
I'm going to have more clips that are leading up to the course.
Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch, on TikTok at virtualcouch.
Find my substack, substack.thevirtualcouch.com.
I want all your questions, your comments, your feedback.
Keep sending in your relationship questions. Give me all the details you want.
And some of that might make it into a future podcast as well.
Okay. My thanks to Mackie for joining me. Let's get right to it. Let me go, Mel.
Otherwise, you'll hear it and then I'll get mad at myself later on account of
mouth sounds. I know. Which you don't like, misophonia?
Yeah, I'm diseased. I just saw some article about that and I didn't read it enough.
I don't remember if it said misophonia is a sign of genius or the opposite of that. Okay.
But it was something like that. But it really was something about misophonia
and if you have a problem with chewing and that sort of thing.
I'll have to go look it up before I try to speak. Yeah, watch it before you tell me I have problems.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.
I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and
this is my daughter Mackie.
Hi Mackie. Hi, Tony. Also, you are host of The Mind, The Mirror,
and Me, which needs to make it come back. Years ago.
I know. Did you enjoy it though while you did it? Yeah, it was fun.
We have a few. We've got some... Yeah, there's 20 something of them. Yeah. Yeah.
And I can even run this on there. You can throw this on there.
Sure. Yeah. So if you're coming from there, welcome back to The Mind,
The Mirror, and Me. That's right.
I don't remember anything I would say to start it, so we'll just fly past that.
Yeah. I think we did, but my life looks very different than when we used it.
It really does. I was curious.
I've been, I don't want to say begging you to come on, but I think that's kind of fair.
Whenever I leave the house, I'm like, hey, if you're not doing anything,
if you want to come over. You could probably record.
And you know, today when I walked by to leave for my office.
Were you going to say it? Yeah, I was going to.
But then I just thought, you know what? I just will go to my office and get
some things done. It's a weekend. And I would come in here and I was going to write and maybe record.
And then you texted me. And I volunteered myself.
That's a lesson in itself right there. It is. Can't push people or something. Honestly.
People's permission and you let them do their thing. Yeah. Yeah,
things that I've just been reading
about not being so pursue-y and just allowing things to unfold more.
Interesting. It's a good thing. There's something there. There is.
But today, I thought it would be fun to talk about fun.
To put me on the spot. A little bit, a little bit. So let's just say hypothetically
that you went through a breakup a few months ago.
Maybe not hypothetically that happened. Maybe it really did happen.
It really did. And that was my life. Yeah. A couple months ago.
And you had been in a long-term relationship. It had been well over a year.
Really two. And this is not to discourage that person at all,
but the data that we got from it was pretty fantastic.
Fantastic, amazing, interesting. I know. I don't know if I was going to say something.
I don't know what I was going to say. Oh, fascinating. Very fascinating. Yeah.
And we'll just let this unfold is maybe a good way to put it.
And what was really interesting, we've been
using the phrase around the house and I said it to my podcast listeners
when somebody uses or says the right mouth sounds
and they really say the right things that
fit in that moment when you're expressing what you really need
or what you're frustrated with and that person says the right
things and they might even say it with the right tone of voice the right
facial expressions and so why would you not
think okay cool good talk and believe
you and trust that you mean what you say and then things
don't necessarily change yeah and so
then when you get frustrated later and it could be a week a
month two months later something happened happening again
then you get frustrated about it and then the
person oh my gosh you're right doubles down
on the mouth sounds yeah so i don't know where do you go with that
talk about that i i have so many thoughts on
that and i think the more i've talked about this with my friends and people
it's very normal people are really good at saying the mouth sounds they really
are and then not following through the actions but i think specifically it's
hard i think that'd be hard for anyone in any situation but i think one thing
i realized is I've always been a words of affirmation person.
I resonate really deeply with words.
Therefore, I believe words when I hear them.
And if I use my words, I typically mean what I'm saying. And I know that I'll
follow through with that.
When somebody tells me something, I typically believe it and I, or I want to believe it.
Or I just, I don't know, that's how I like receive love. So I believe it. I trust it.
And so I fell into a little cycle there of believing, even though the actions were never.
And i like what you just said because i didn't even think about the concept
of projection right now but i do the similar thing
you were projecting onto somebody that if i'm going to say
this thing i really mean it so then if they're going to say the thing
then i'm assuming they must mean it too yeah exactly and
what's funny is you can even take that in the way of the
person who is saying it in the moment that i
don't know if they're subconsciously or consciously thinking if
their version of projection would be no everybody says
that they're going to try harder and they kind of don't because that's
what that person is doing absolutely so they're projecting your
project parties are projecting yeah isn't that wild yeah
and I think that that's a it's an interesting concept just
in relationships in general that I feel like I've noticed to like even
stepping back into dating I think it's hard
going into relationships because you do just assume that people work the way
that you work and it's like even a really great person isn't gonna work the
exact way that you work and that's something to navigate in any relationship
and that's just always interesting and you think that people will be affected
by things the way you will you know that's just the natural way to think of it and so it's,
it's interesting to meet new people and learn things that way and then try to
learn how to show up for somebody and vice versa maybe this could be kind of
a fun muse to work through is i'm going to pull up this why the anxious and
the avoidant find each other.
And have we talked about this or really gone into the origin story?
I don't know. Because I'm blown away by this. We are two anxious pals.
Yeah, we are. We definitely are.
And so I tell the story of Jack and Jill. So I'd love to see where you fit into
this. Even though as your dad, this might be a little awkward.
Because it has to do with our parents for the most part.
Right? And as your parent. You are my parent. I am.
So the anxious, which is Jill in this scenario. And it's really funny.
On one of the men's groups that I do a lot of work with.
When i was sharing this because i did a two-part episode on this
anxious and avoidant pattern jack and jill and more guys
identified as the avoidant and more
women identified as the anxious but this
is wild jill's story learning to chase connection in this scenario i talked
about her childhood was marked by unpredictability man now it's funny because
now i don't want to have this is just a hypothetical story because in the jill
story it's the mom was the one that was unpredictable and And then to the avoidant,
the Jack story, his dad was kind of the real jerk. But again,
this is just something to interact with.
In this one, her mother, struggling with untreated anxiety and depression,
oscillated between emotional absence and emotional flooding.
So when Jill was upset, sometimes her mom didn't notice.
Sometimes she noticed, but she didn't respond. And sometimes,
most confusingly, Jill's emotions would trigger her mom's collapse,
and suddenly Jill would find herself managing her mom's feelings.
If Jill came up with big feelings or big emotions, sometimes to her mom,
that would be like, oh man, that's overwhelming.
So hey just don't worry about it like you need
to calm down and that's an origin story of
so many of the anxiously attached some of this pattern of inconsistency i had
on my notes here when jill didn't make a soccer team her mom didn't really notice
when she got to be on a math test at 10 then her mom was like man i never i
didn't teach you well enough when her first boyfriend broke up with her 15 her
mom said it's not even a big deal you'll get over it.
And then her dad was physically present, but emotionally absent,
a kind man who worked long hours and seemed relieved to retreat into his workshop
on weekends away from his wife's unpredictability. He didn't intervene.
He didn't model a different way. But here's the stuff that I think when I would
read this part and every, and I'm talking right now, every relationship is anxious
and avoidant as far as I can tell.
And you'll see why, because it's the way we heal from them.
But so then what Jill's nervous system learned that connection is unstable and
might vanish without warning. And again, as an anxious, I identify with you.
Right? I mean, we'll even set the... I think all people end up,
for the most part, all, is pretty much all that I can tell, land in this anxious or avoidant camp.
When somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong. Holy cow, do I feel that one.
I need to pursue harder, be more, do more to keep people engaged.
My feelings are either too much or not enough, and I can't tell which.
I'm responsible for other people's emotional states. And if I can be attentive
enough, loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay.
Isn't that wild? Then by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system
was wired for vigilance. She scanned faces looking for signs of withdrawal.
She texted friends immediately, worried if they didn't respond.
Okay, you're out on that one then. You don't text back.
I don't text back, but then if people don't text me back, I panic. Okay, okay.
She volunteered for everything, helped everybody, and made herself indispensable
because if she were needed, then people wouldn't leave.
Whoa! Deep. Her core belief, connection is uncertain and I have to work to secure it.
And I felt like that's just the story of my life. That's the basis of anxious
attachment. Yep. Yep. Yep.
So now, enter Jack. He had this abusive... I don't know much about Jack.
I know the avoidant is fascinating. I don't. And we'll talk about this too.
I so do not resonate with this. Jack had this abusive, critical father and an
absent, emotionally withdrawn mom.
He learned from his childhood that when things got hard, people either attack
or disappear. sometimes both.
When he was cut from a team, his dad said, well, you should have practiced more.
When Jack was nervous before a debate competition at 14, his dad said,
either you're prepared or not. You shouldn't be worrying about it.
And when he struggled after he
had a family pet pass away, his dad told him, man up. It was just a dog.
And mom didn't intervene. She was kind in small, quiet ways,
packed his favorite lunch, left him notes, but she never stood up to his dad.
So what his nervous system learned, and again, after I've read the anxious to
the anxious person and then a couple setting, they're like, wow, that really hits.
And then I'm not avoidant. So I would read this one going like,
and is this at all? And then that person's crying on the couch too.
Showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection. Other people's emotions are
dangerous and overwhelming.
When conflict arises, disappearing is the safe option. That one we will come back to.
If I stay quiet and shut down, things will blow over. Being needed feels like being trapped.
Feelings are weakness and weakness gets punished. And connection means somebody
will either criticize me or fall apart on me.
I know, right? So when we are pursuing someone saying, no, I just want you to see me or understand me.
Their walls are shooting up and they are out of it. Yeah. And that's where,
when I would talk to the avoidant, they would say, oh, absolutely. I feel criticized.
And even if I say, I'm saying that nice face, the gentle mouth sounds,
they're like, right, but you're mad at me.
Interesting. So interesting. So then he became the kid who was fine with everything,
didn't ask for help, didn't share when things were hard, learned to solve problems
alone in his room with the door closed.
He realized that his father's criticism hurt less if he didn't react to it.
He learned the safest place was inside his own head where nobody could see him.
So by the time he left for college, his nervous system was wired for self-protection through withdrawal.
Emotions, his own or others, were like threats. Closeness felt like suffocation
and independence was survival.
So his core belief connection was dangerous and I have to protect myself through distance.
So there's your origin story. I mean, it makes sense, which is like when you
lay it out that I understand the avoidant.
I don't resonate with it, but I can see like how that would lead to that.
I've definitely met people that do those things and act that way.
Yeah, so when they withdraw or they say the right mouth sounds,
they're kind of saying, okay, is that enough? And then, are we okay?
And then hoping to just move past yeah yeah okay we're fine but does
it make you then wonder well then why on earth did we find each other
absolutely because then how is it not a constant this
is this battle this is so wild so
in this scenario they meet at this professional conference they're both in their
20s the initial attraction felt like finally something different but what jill
saw in jack after a lifetime of her mom's emotional chaos he felt like calm
water he was quiet reserved he didn't dominate the conversation or perform for
attention he seemed solid and grounded Her nervous system says,
finally, somebody who won't fall apart, somebody stable, I won't have to take care of.
So she sees the avoidant basically as grounded.
And that one makes sense. What
he sees in her, Jill was attentive and responsive. She replied quickly.
She asked thoughtful questions and made plans. She made eye contact.
She leaned in. She remembered details.
So for him, who spent his entire life feeling either criticized or invisible,
all of a sudden, this person sees him.
So he says, man, somebody thinks I'm interesting and somebody wants to know
about me. It makes so much sense, it's kind of crazy, but what neither of them
realized, they were both each attracted to the familiar dynamic.
That's a cool, I didn't even know that was a ringtone thing.
That's my alarm. Okay, it's time to wake up. Yep.
But so what they need to realize they were attracted to the familiar dynamic disguises as opposite.
So Jill's anxious attachment made her hypervigilant to connection,
which looked like she was attentive.
And then Jack's avoidant attachment made him emotionally reserved,
which initially looked like stability and independence.
So then my mind was blown because then I started talking about it's just the familiar.
Yeah. So your nervous system finds the familiar. And then you would just click initially.
Yeah. And it would seem good. Totally. And that's what's really interesting
is so now they get together and boy, this actually then fast forwards into maybe
some of the stuff you've experienced dating so far, where now that person does
seem like, man, they've got their crap together.
Wow, I'm having a moment here too. Yeah, I did too when you were reading the
avoidant one. I was like, oh.
And so, oh my gosh, yeah. But then you come up with. Disappearing,
the emotions being too much. Oh, yeah.
Oh, I didn't think about that. So then you go through, you went,
you had this relationship that was starting off pretty darn good.
But then there was an event that occurred that nobody could have seen coming.
You had something really big happen at work with somebody.
Somebody went through a tragedy and then you go to this person and you say,
man, I need somebody to talk to.
And then he, oh boy. Yeah. Go back to like, he felt like dangerous and overwhelming.
Yep. When conflict arises, disappearing, if he
stays quiet or shuts down things will blow over being needed felt
like being trapped absolutely this is crazy and then dipped and
dipped and then wanted you to think you were crazy
for having emotions and feelings and meanwhile i i
felt so seen because you were saying the right the right things
the things that i so love were you were going through
life for the very first time as you and that thing happened and you were emoting
yep what's wrong with that i don't think there's anything wrong with feeling
feelings so no to me nothing but again I'm an anxious attachment big feelings
yeah all right what else is coming up for you here hearing that stuff well now I'm just.
I have more questions which we talked about this you and
i asked you questions about this not that long ago but talking
about how you can learn to balance your attachment
style but you typically won't swing to the other
side yeah which makes sense based off of knowing the backing of
it like that you'd have to change a lot of things to swing to
the other side but then i
guess my question is once you get past that initial things seem
like they're clicking but then the reality sets in of the way that
the other person works how do people even then go
about that yeah and if you're saying most relationships do tend
to be anxious and avoidant and currently i'm going to reserve a
tiny bit of i know that there are things i don't know
that i don't know yet because where i'm at is it does seem a challenge because
the anxious which we are you can learn to that's why i've been so fascinated
by differentiation because that's about maintaining connection with somebody
you care about while learning who you are or finding yourself or being autonomous in the relationship.
Because that first point of balance of differentiation is learning to know who
I am without needing the other person to validate it or tell me this is who I am.
Now, I would love for that person to validate me, but ultimately I need to know
that, oh, I am... You don't need that to be valued or to feel seen.
What I think is a struggle is, as an anxious, I can learn to not continue to
need that person to tell me I'm okay. I can learn to soothe myself.
I can learn to stay more grounded and not get really angry when they don't show
up. These are the first three points of balance differentiation.
And the fourth one is, I'm going to realize growth is going to come from the discomfort.
And if I'm being presented with something that there's truth in,
then actually I'll take ownership of it.
And I'll even, and here was the key, and I'll even do something about it to change.
Because what the avoidant tends to do is go back to like your breakup,
where that person, when you finally would bring it to them, and they would go,
okay, no, you're right. I need to do better.
That's where i started looking at from differentiation oh that
is the right mouth sound but then they feel better
and you feel better and then they don't do anything
exactly so in differentiation it's like not only taking ownership
of your own stuff but then making effort for change and so what i'm noticing
is that as an anxious i can work on myself and then but i'm still wanting connection
so bad and my understanding and i have read two whole books on the avoidance
So I'm basically an expert.
Okay. No, but it's funny because I do so much couples work that when you identify
this, the avoidant often just, it seems to, they feel relief when the anxious
is no longer just being so clingy.
Interesting. But I don't know that they will ever think of the relationship
as much as the anxious does.
And it doesn't mean they don't care. And it doesn't mean they don't love the person.
Which is, that's so foreign. I can't imagine not thinking about it. Same girl.
That's bizarre to me. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's the challenge.
It's like the anxious can grow more calm and confident and differentiated and
grounded and not need validation, but they still want that connection.
And the avoidant may feel, and I'm going to own the fact that this is probably
not the reality of all avoidant attached people.
It seems that often what will come up in sessions is the anxious is the one
that has been trying to figure out things. They've been reading the books and
listening to the podcast.
And then they try to present something new to the avoidant. And I go back up
to this part where and then the avoidant takes that as criticism. Right.
And has to run away from that. Yeah. And so then they know the right things
to say to then kind of attack or put the anxious on their heels a bit.
And then the anxious gets flustered and upset. and then my
joke which I got to go to jokes is then the anxious now the
avoidant just has to say I just kind of think you think
you're right and I'm wrong and then the anxious like oh man I'm gonna go on
a hero's journey for the next year and figure out am I doing that and I'll come
back and say I have figured it out and then the avoidant just has to go no I
think you're still pretty arrogant and then the anxious like okay I'll be back.
But then here comes the projection of the, I think the anxious is often thinking,
well, I'm sure the avoidant, they're doing it too.
They're over there on their hero's journey. Because you only know your way of
going about it. And it's easy to assume that everyone else is going to do the same thing. Yeah.
But often what happens, and I'm just saying, I'm 100% owning the pattern recognition
of this as a couples therapist.
That then the avoidant will often say, yeah, but they were telling me I'm not
even doing my work. And I'm doing work.
And then the anxious kind of looks hesitant.
Then I'll say, oh, okay. Well, tell them. like tell them what you're doing and
then sometimes it's i'm doing my work i'm thinking about this stuff a lot you
know and then who's to say that what they're doing is wrong right it's the way
they're doing it right then even when you can say well what would it look like if you,
wanted to read the same book together or listen to podcasts together or and
then you'll find that sometimes the avoidant will even go you know what i'm
on it that sounds i can do that and i'm sitting.
They're going okay cool and then the anxious like okay that was
great and then everybody leaves great session come back
in a week or two i'm like all right how's the whole book thing going and then
it's like the cover yeah so
i think that's that's a challenge so i don't know if that's kind of where you're
going with your question it's
just kind of a constant trying to balance it well the
path forward requires both people to recognize the pattern take responsibility
for their own healing and slowly rewire their nervous systems for secure connection
it's possible but it requires seeing what's actually happening beneath the surface
of this dance that they do work on both sides it's fascinating to look at what
your last brief relationship looked like because it looked amazing and then
it just checks out that as you started bringing things up that weren't,
in the opening script? Yeah. Like the first few pages of the script of the movie? Yeah.
Going a little bit real. Yeah. And then I was like, okay.
So are there anything that you want to talk about even from your previous relationship
where when you look back then it's like, wait, these things weren't that crazy
to want in the relationship?
Oh, almost every single piece of it.
And I spent that whole relationship basically just waiting for the bare minimum
to happen and then hearing the right mouth noises and then never.
Seeing that so it's like literally i mean i'm talking everything like waiting
for trust to be there waiting to feel seen
feel valued feel considered but the consideration thing
is the biggest thing that's one thing i've learned that people
will say that consideration is like the highest form of love tell me
what that looks like too because you're right this gets brought up a lot and then sometimes
i think it's hard for people to define what it would even mean to be considered
and i think it would depend person to person what they need but i'm thinking
of like me in that relationship there were so many things where it was just
like you made that decision and you did not think about me or how it would affect
me or what I would think of it. And even if it was your decision.
We're in a relationship.
So it does then affect me, but you didn't think about anything like that.
Or you made these plans and didn't consider if I, you know, you'd be involved or you'd wait.
And I'm thinking even just dumb things of say there's an event coming up and
this person would not let me know about it until the day of and would have known
about it for weeks, but then would get mad at me if I couldn't go.
And it's like but you didn't consider me and
that i would need to know and that i need to plan that you didn't tell me well it's
staying on that one too because then that person because i've had so many of those
kind of conversations and even if i'm using my four pillars i would
let's say that you guys were doing that in a couple study and then you would
bring it up and then i would say okay we're gonna go to him we're gonna assume
good intentions he didn't think i'm gonna wait till the last minute so we're
gonna assume he wasn't trying to hurt you we're gonna he's gonna mention that
he forgot or whatever and then my pillar two you can't tell him that's ridiculous
or I don't even believe him,
but I would make a pause and say, even if you do think it's ridiculous and you don't believe him.
And then pillar three, then let's go into questions before comments.
So questions like saying, well, when did you know?
And did you think about it? And then that will either expose the immaturity
of the person either just saying.
Honestly i didn't or that's the time where i
think the avoidant could theoretically grow because i want
them to have the courage to say honestly i don't
or i think about it in the moment and i don't think about it again yeah
even though that would hurt you yeah would that be better
to know absolutely okay instead of the well
i don't know i didn't think i don't know i just i don't know like just that
and it's like well what do i do with that then all of a sudden pillar four which
is the one that i'm realizing more and more is difficult for the avoidant is that
person goes into a victim mode and goes man you're
right I just suck yeah would you ever hear that every
time there was anything because then what would you
and I ended up apologizing and comforting when
I was the one bringing something up that like I needed
comfort or I needed you know yeah to feel
seen and then it always ended with me I'm so
sorry I didn't mean that and whatever and then he's gonna
go I mean I'm saying and the next day I'd be like what just right
and in that moment guys like it's okay yeah it's okay you're
like okay well and then i guess i feel bad but i
guess we're good and then yeah that so that's the dance oh
yeah and that was this cycle over and over and over so
it takes a lot for the anxious to then stay grounded and generally curious but
then it also takes courage for the avoidant to then own up to the fact of man
yeah this is a pattern of mine yeah and i don't think about it again i like
that i don't consider you yeah because they they're They're so scared that if
they say that, then you'll be like, well, I'm done then.
Because if you if they would acknowledge you're right i am not
considering you and it isn't just the mouth sound said because
then i don't know if it always has to be the therapist but then says okay well
what do you need to do in order to show her that you
do consider her yeah and usually the number one answer is i don't
know yeah i was like that doesn't cut it anymore it doesn't
do anything that doesn't fix it and i think it's interesting too that just the
consideration thing though there's so many little ways to make
someone feel considered i just feel like just remembering
little things about someone is such a
just like oh like you cared enough to remember that and it's like the amount
of times i had to repeat myself or had to say
things again how at this point how do you not know that thing and it just was
again it's like i would remember that about you like why would you know what
i mean like just those little things but to just show you care and you just
think about someone even a little bit and that just lacked the whole relationship
talk about and I don't know if we can stay in generalities here,
but let's say that this person reaches out to somebody that doesn't really have
a deserved place in the relationship.
They've got connection with somebody outside of the relationship that it's like,
it isn't very productive.
And so you've said, Hey, tell me about that. Trying to be genuinely curious.
And then what would their answer typically be of why they needed to have conversations
with the person that didn't really deserve a place in the relationship?
I feel like we can go, we can, we can make that a little bit more clear.
Yeah. Okay. Talk about that.
Because I think this is pretty significant. It would be, it was,
the person I was dating had a relationship with someone that they should not
have had a relationship with.
In your opinion. In my opinion. And I would acknowledge.
And everyone I've spoken to
agrees as well that it was kind of an inappropriate relationship to have.
And then if I would bring it up with curiosity, just tell me about that.
Tell me like, what is the need there?
What are the intentions there? Anything like that. It would get spun to,
I'm crazy for thinking that that would be anything different.
And I'm in the wrong for trying to make it anything different than what it is.
And that even though the topics of conversation were very inappropriate,
that I must be reading it wrong.
Even though I'd seen it word for word what was being said. And it was very inappropriate.
And then I was made to be like, how dare you think that, basically.
So then they would finally, this person would finally then say,
okay, fine, I won't talk to that person again.
But at that point... but then they just did they just hit
it yeah they hit it and then what did it feel like even when they said okay fine it
wasn't a genuine man i'm gonna really look introspective straight
up i do not understand where you're coming from or why you would possibly think that
but i guess i have to do this so what would you do moving
forward because in the moment should that be a bigger i think so i know we're
being very vague with that but it's basically if trust and a boundary are both
broken and somebody has proved to you over and over and over again that they
cannot hold or respect your boundaries or have given you any reason to trust them,
I think you have every right to walk away. Yeah, it's hard.
It's very hard, but it's like at this point, if I were in that situation again.
I would not give more chances to that because you've already shown me exactly who you are.
And that's one thing I'm trying to learn is that when somebody shows you who
they are, you actually, it's almost on you to believe that because they've given
you the warning, they're showing you exactly who they are.
And I'm learning to toe the line of seeing the best in people and trying to
give grace and give second chances, but also just seeing it for what it is.
That I think is a really difficult thing to balance and to try to not lose yourself.
And again, being kind, being generous, trying to give grace,
but then also just allowing yourself to be walked all over and then showing
someone that they can walk all over.
Cause I think that's another thing in this relationship that I learned is that
I, every time I then heard the mouth noises and then I said,
okay, you're right. I forgive you.
I was basically saying, and if you just say the right noises,
I will forgive you every time.
So you can do whatever you want, but as long as you say the right words, I will stay.
And I basically handed that to this person.
And then, so then it's like, who was, I didn't think that anything would change.
That's deep and mature and also it stinks as well. Yeah.
Because you're training the relationship how it will operate by what you tolerate.
I remember a friend of mine who said, I just can't keep doing this.
And his therapist said, oh, you can, you have been. And you are, and you're going to.
And that's the thing that I think is hard, where it's like, no,
it actually comes down to you.
Making the hard choice and leaving. And that's another thing that we could go
into so many things about because in this relationship that we are talking about, I did leave.
That was after a long time and I should have left way before I did,
but I eventually somehow got the courage to leave.
And it's crazy because it's like, oh, that was like, I had the power to do that the whole time.
And that's an interesting thing to then sit back and be like,
wow, I could have done that. Then the boundary stuff, I'll move it into the hypothetical.
So let's say that hypothetically there's a couple and the
guy is communicating to somebody that
he works with and they're being super flirty and this person is quite
a bit older it can seem to get out of hand and then the girlfriend finds the
text so then that guy is saying you're wrong and you're crazy you don't understand
and then finally it's the you're wrong and you're crazy didn't get the girlfriend
to stop yeah that's what i think is really interesting because if the girlfriend
would have bit on any those,
then he just still keeps doing it anyway with impunity.
Right, but that relationship would have progressed. Yeah, and so then after
the girlfriend stayed grounded and present, then finally he's like,
okay, fine, I won't do it anymore.
But still, it was after he tried to say, you're wrong and you're crazy and then fine, I won't do it.
So from my chair, it's interesting because if the girlfriend bites at any of
those earlier, it trains the relationship even more.
But what it also trained the relationship with was stick with it long enough
and he'll find the right thing to say.
Yeah. It's really interesting. It's almost like when you take a little kid to
the store and they want the toy and then you're like, no, you can't have it. And then they try.
Just this one time, the parent says no. They'll cycle through enough things
until it finally lands. Yeah.
I'll save up for it. I'll pay for it myself. Then they lose their mind and get
angry about it. Then finally the parent's like, okay, just this one time.
But all the kids learn. I just had to cycle through a few more things and then I found it.
That's what I think is really interesting. And then it's like that's basically
carried through to a relationship, a grown relationship.
And then would you ever hear the, well just tell me what I need to do.
That's another one that i think is not a healthy thing because
basically that person's saying no just tell me what you need
me to do to make you feel better even though i'm
doing it because i care or want you to feel seen or heard or
i want this relationship to be better just how do i get out of this discomfort
in this moment yeah yeah but it can even sound i'll see couples do that and
they think that that's a healthy conversation of just tell me what you need
me to do there's usually some frustration behind it oh yeah like it yes no i
like that you said that because there There is a version... There's a genuine way to do that.
Yeah, there is. How can I help you? How can I show up for you?
Yeah, because I honestly am not sure how, but then it's funny because if the person genuinely,
they would have to be able to acknowledge that that behavior they're doing isn't
helpful for the relationship, but they would have to also admit the fact that
they're going to take a look introspectively of why they do it.
Because then now maybe it makes more sense of what would
you need right now i need to know what you're doing to work are you
going to therapy or right what books are you reading what podcast you're listening
to are you gonna find some examples no i i mean i have a list of lots of examples
i could say but i feel like since we've kind of we've briefly touched on this
relationship i was in but i did go through and did a here's everything i've learned from it,
so if we can maybe just rapid fire through this okay i would really like today
but i basically framed this as everything I've learned being single again in my late 20s. Okay.
Because I'm practically 40 years old at this point. We can just rapid fire.
We could probably talk about each one of these for an hour each.
So we're just going to rapid fire. Okay.
My first one, feel it. When the uncomfortable feelings arise,
your natural instinct will be to distract, hide, or run.
Do not. You have to feel it. The actual healing is going to come from feeling those feelings.
And I know people don't really get this one because then it's,
well, if I'm sitting with it and feeling it, then what do i do and do
you have any thoughts on that i think you you
continue to do little things but you allow the thoughts to still be
there and you don't try to completely distract so for me it'd be like i went
on a lot of walks you know where it's like i'm still thinking i'm allowing the
feelings to be there i'm not fully distracting because there's definitely a
way to do that where then you're watching shows and you're playing games and
you're doing things that are great and they're beneficial in those moments and
they are the little things but you also need to feel things.
Too. So it's like, I think you're walking, you're meditating,
you're sitting in a sauna.
You're like doing these things that force you or you're talking about it even,
but you're doing these things that you actually have to feel the uncomfortable feelings.
And that can be anything from betrayal deep as that, or just bummed that a relationship
didn't work out or sad or being so mad at that person.
It's letting those feelings just pass through. And you've talked a lot too about
finding where they are in your body and noticing the feelings and allowing them
to be there and not trying to just shove them down.
That's the key. I love that you're saying that it makes sense when somebody
says, I don't think that's going to work or I don't even know what to do.
It's because we don't do that.
And it isn't. And you nailed it where to get rid of the emotion or feeling is
to then either turn to unhealthy coping mechanism. Yeah.
There's a balance there. You can't go too far to just numbing and distracting
because this is another side note that has been very helpful for me in my whole life.
But I think it's probably a thing you've told me, but you cannot selectively numb feelings.
And so if you're numbing the bad, you are numbing the good. Yeah.
And there's no... you can't just pick. I don't feel like feeling that.
You're now dropping everything down to a lower level.
And sometimes people will accept that fact of because if I'm going to just watch
shows instead of wanting to run into traffic, I'll go with that.
Yeah. That one's okay. But then at some point then let's try to break down what
are all the feelings because it's not usually just one.
Because I think somebody, right, you can be a little bit relieved that you figured
this out, but also sad and angry and frustrated and hopeless and fearful. Yeah.
And then you can even throw in a little bit of there's maybe some excitement there for,
potential of your future you know what i mean like there's like it can be such
a complicated mix of feelings especially if we're talking specifically about
breakups that's one of the most complex times to
feel and there's just so much there where we
saw your maturity even more is that
you were you did seem to be doing a lot better
as you process things but you were also feeling all the other emotions
because i thought about we didn't talk about this but even when
you just said and there can even be some excitement is that I know that if
you're telling that to somebody like a friend then they might think cool then
you're good right you know so sometimes I think people don't even want to express
that I mean I'm a little bit relieved because then the other person's like okay
I don't have to check in anymore we're good and it's like no you can feel okay
in that moment and then still have many days of,
it sucks. Okay, on this note before you have to say, I don't know if you remember,
I sent in our family group chat one day, I just sent this quote that I heard,
the answers you seek are in the silence that you are avoiding.
Sometimes the most powerful thoughts are the fleeting ones that you may never
hear if you're constantly being busy.
That was so deep. I know, I love that your mom said, I feel personally in fact.
But it is, it's that silence and it can be so scary to be in that silence.
But that again is where I think feeling happens and
then that's what leads to actually healing and working through things and
processing emotions that's how we're built to process our
emotions but we're in such a time of distract and
shove down and don't feel it so it's tricky okay
what else you got that was a good one okay then i have which this i've actually
changed my mind on a little bit but initially i said trust is earned not given
blindly and i don't know if i still would stand by that trust has to be earned
but i think that if somebody proves to you that they are not trustworthy you
no longer owe them your blind trust is where i would shift that if somebody.
Repeatedly is untrustworthy they have no
right to then turn around and get mad at you for not trusting them i guess is
my is my shift on that but i do think you should give people chances and you
should be open to trusting people even when it's new but if they've proved to
you yeah you cannot trust them there because i in my specific situation it's like then i would be,
something this person would do something untrustworthy.
And then I would lose some trust and then I would bring up that,
hey, I maybe don't feel like I super trust you and then I would somehow get
yelled at for not trusting the untrustworthy person.
I have such a hot take on this and I got to see if I can find this one quote.
It's from a podcast that I listened to called Invisibilia.
They had this author on and he had a book about trust. He said that you don't
really know a person and what that means is that if somebody betrays you,
then it's not such a shock.
It doesn't surprise them that the person does a thing they didn't think that
that person was going to do.
When somebody betrays our trust, what happens is we have an idea of who they
are and they behave in a way that runs against the idea.
We say to them, I thought that you were different. I thought that you weren't
like that. How could you do that to me when I had this idea of you?
And this is a controversial take, but he says it's a tyrannical way to behave.
I have this idea of you. You have to conform to it or our friendship is over.
So basically he's saying we're stuck in a binary.
We either totally trust somebody or they betray us and then we're done with them.
But this other way of thinking, and he calls it mistrust with a capital M,
gives you a third option.
And it's hard to get your head around. It's basically saying trust people less
and it's a more liberating world, but have more respect for the fact that you
can't know them and that their behavior might sometimes betray or let you down.
But where I've landed on this one is, I'm owning the fact that in a relationship.
We don't know what we don't know about the other person. We are projecting how
we think they'll show up in a relationship.
But there are some things that why I don't want to call them universal truths,
but that are pretty crummy to do.
And so then when those things do happen over time, they are going to erode trust.
And so when I get a couple in here, we'll say the guy has been the one who betrayed the wife.
It's almost inevitable where he'll say at some point she just needs to trust
me. And I say, oh, no, no, no.
Right now we have to accept the fact that she may never trust you again.
Because what that acceptance means now everything's on the table as far as ways to rebuild trust.
So I'm with you on this. I think we naturally are going to trust our partner.
You're saying in a very black and white way that it has to be all or nothing.
And I think that that's just not how trust actually works. And I don't think
that's necessarily a bad thing.
Yeah, it's going to evolve. But then I would imagine there are some certain
things, though, that there has to be an acceptance.
It's like you can always have a boundary set, though, of like,
okay, if this thing happens, that is going to affect the trust no matter what.
Yeah. But short of that, I do understand the longer that you're with somebody
over time, they're not being the person you thought they would be,
which actually makes sense. Yeah. And that is interesting to view it that way.
But then, yeah, again, I think there are certain things where it's like,
okay, but you've now lied to me a hundred times.
So why would I trust anything that you're saying? You know what I mean?
So it's like, there is that line for sure.
And when a person, let's say, who's been the betrayer embraces that,
then I've seen real growth occur because then they are accepting the fact that
i'm i can earn this back by being more honest and open because usually the person's
afraid to be honest because they assume that that person will take it a certain
way so they're not even set back to that managing emotion so i didn't want to
tell her because i didn't want her to get mad at me.
Tell her and allow her to have her own emotions or feelings and
it might be she is mad but it might not yeah yeah
okay rapid fire okay yeah i didn't rapid
fire that one very well i threw in my this is kind of what we were talking about
but no feeling is ever final one of my favorite quotes as someone who has dealt
with a lot of anxiety in her life that has been a really big thing for me that
no feeling is ever final it's good or bad but that as humans like we are constantly just,
feeling different things and you'll notice that every feeling you've
ever had has come and gone in one way or another and so
it's like I think that's a really big thing to remember in moments where
things are bad or dark or scary that
it's like hey no this feeling is temporary don't know how long it'll last but
it's going to go away at some point and it might come back like you kind of
have to have that acceptance that it could come back again but it's not going
to stay here at 100% forever and to just lean into that and it goes both ways.
There's a level of that too with the positive feelings and being happy and like
being content that that will only last for so long and then that's another like,
so soak it up. Well, you know what I mean? Like there's so many ways you can spin that.
I just i think that's really deep and i think it's it's important and then i
think it goes with you always tell me to just bring my emotions with me or like
my anxiety you'll tell me to bring it with me and i think that that's a piece
of it where it's like hey you don't need to let these feelings,
stop you from living your life and doing the things that you need to do or continuing
to heal or continuing to grow but just know that they might be there when you
don't want them to be there and that's okay you can still continue on have i
sold you on the concept of impermanence yet do you know what that means okay
i think you're gonna like this one this is from a recent podcasts and I've been obsessed with it.
Impermanence is the recognition that everything, literally everything is constantly changing.
Nothing's fixed. Nothing's permanent. Not our bodies, not our thoughts,
not our emotions, not our relationships, not our beliefs, not our understanding of truth.
It comes from the Buddhist world. And for some people, it sounds terrifying.
Some people think it sounds like kind of nihilistic.
I was going to say it and it's nihilist. Right? Because if nothing's permanent, what do we count on?
But the paradox is when you accept impermanence, then it becomes healing because
so much suffering is from trying to make things permanent that can't be.
So, we cling to our beliefs, we cling to that I'm going to feel this way forever,
we hold on to versions of ourselves that no longer serve us.
Exactly, it's the default. So, we stay in these rigid positions and we're afraid
that if we change our mind, then that means that we did something wrong and
it being wrong feels like death. Exactly.
So, impermanence teaches us that the problem isn't change because change is inevitable.
The problem is our resistance to it, our desperate clinging to certainty in
an uncertain world or the need to be right instead of curious,
when you embrace impermanence, then I have noticed that even if I'm having a
difficult conversation with somebody, I'm aware that it's funny,
my brain goes to this too shall pass.
And so then it allows you to not make it as big of a, this is,
and this is it, this conversation doesn't have to change everything.
Because you won't remember a lot of it by later that night or even the next day.
And so it allows you to stay more in the conversation out of your own head and
then more genuinely curious about what's going on so that's a good one huh yeah
i will sell you on impermanence okay,
you shouldn't be going to sleep sad every night or crying in a healthy relationship every night.
Moving on, begging for someone to care, not normal in a healthy relationship. That one, Mackie. Yeah.
We'll put note to self. We'll do that one in a whole other episode sometimes
because there should never be a time that you literally have to beg someone to just care. Yeah.
That's crazy. It is. And until you know yourself well enough,
which can also sound cliched, because then I want to be so curious as to why
the person I'm in the relationship doesn't seem to care about this thing.
Like I want to, I get genuinely curious, co-regulation that's
another one i'll put a pin in we because that is the mouth sounds yeah
but i don't know if we talked about this i'm getting so nerdy into it
but if you think of baby crying they don't know how to
calm themselves mom holds a baby and says essentially
hey let me let you borrow my nervous system and
we can co-regulate because when you have that version of
it that then if you're going to the person going about
you why don't you care and then they're all of a sudden they're like i you
know they're doing that whole thing that then once i'm you
know what i deserve to be cared for about and i care about myself so i want
to know why don't you person i'm in a relationship care about these things right
so i'm also lending my nervous position to like show up that way yeah okay another
one there's no correct timeline of feeling i think that's big and this goes
to what you talk about all the time but that,
this is everybody's first time doing this and it's like there is no i think
we so just pretend or get caught up in the fact that there has to be some blueprint
of life and that somebody.
Has decided this is exactly how everything has to go and this
is how long you're allowed to feel this and this is how you know there's we like
assume that for some reason and it's like no nobody has done this
before nobody literally nobody has done this and nobody has
been you in that exact position like you talk about all the time nobody can
put a timeline on how you're feeling things
and obviously there's a way to like you don't want to sit and ruminate on something
forever and you can argue those things but there is
no it's not like okay you get two weeks
to feel that and then you're you gotta snap out of it if i can
be so bold in this kind of relationship that went
pretty quick what you were dealing with is wild it
was big if there's a tragedy in your life yeah there is
no timeline nobody can say hey you got four hours to feel this and then we're
moving on and you heard that that person's friend had dealt with something similar
a while ago and they did it this way so therefore i had to do it that way that's
crazy we're all so different and we're all doing this for the first time, where the way that you,
we could have the same tragedy happen and you're going to feel it so different
than I'm going to feel it.
And your timeline is going to be so different than my timeline.
And it's like, that's not, that doesn't mean someone's doing it wrong and someone's doing it right.
And so I think that just, I mean, this, again, this was specifically coming
from healing from a breakup, but I think it goes to every aspect of life,
but it's like, there is no correct timeline.
And that extends to, I think then everything, like
I get so caught up in the I'm 26 and I'm single I'm
behind and like my timeline is wrong right it's like no it's not
who decided that no and so it's just
that extends to every aspect of life that there is no correct
timeline so I want to look directly into the camera and say that if you are
someone who finds yourself often telling your partner that they are doing it
wrong whatever they're doing and they're feeling and the way they're doing it
yeah then knock it off respectfully how did you get the power to decide that
that person's doing it wrong?
So, my favorite line then would be to like this person that we're talking about.
So, when he was a 26-year-old girl at work in an esthetician school where somebody
there went through a tragedy.
He's had that experience yeah i'm willing to listen
to how he handled it but until you are in that exact position
i don't want to hear it no so other than that then actually
the greatest thing that he could have done was to make space for
your emotions it's that simple it's i mean it really
it really can't be man that sounds so difficult i can't
even imagine how can i show up for you right now that's it
that's all it has to be yeah so it shows you how uncomfortable
it made him yeah and then it goes right to the the most
one of the most emotionally immature things i think one can express
is that well you're having a different experience than
i am or that i think you should so therefore you must
think you're right and i'm wrong so now i have to attack you
and put you in a one down position and me in a one up so i
feel better not cool no it's
so crazy yeah um backing that though the
fact that healing is not usually linear yeah and that's
a normal thing you could have you could think you're doing so well you could be months
out of a breakup or something going on and then have a day that all
of a sudden it just kind of hits you like a truck and you're like feeling all
the emotions again and that doesn't mean you took a step back that doesn't mean
it's like it's you're just processing things there's so many thoughts that there
because sometimes i even think that since we don't allow our big emotions to
hang out much because we either were never really taught how to do them or we
think we're doing them wrong that every now and again your emotions are just
going to do a quick sound check and be like hey is this thing on like.
Feeling all these emotions and it's like let's have a day and
guess what not final not permanent it's just it's
just there um then he said being alone is
better than settling for less than you deserve and that
leaving can actually be a very brave decision and
it doesn't make you a bad guy and it doesn't mean you like gave
up on something it's like no if you you know like you know if
it's time for you to leave and there's nothing wrong with and maybe
i'll add too that um if somebody does a lot of couples therapy with people
that there's an emotionally immature partner or a narcissistic partner
in the relationship that leaving doesn't even have to
be something that happens immediately that it's it can be like you
say healing's not healing's not linear so
somebody can start putting the pieces together and then they'll probably even
try to have the conversations and then they may not go well and they'll think
what's wrong with me and they'll think i'm going to leave and they're going
to get like i can do this and they're not and it's just this roller coaster
yeah well the actual like leaving process for me probably was a five month thing
yeah like from the first conversation of,
if things do not change, I can't do this. Yeah. To the actual leaving. Yeah.
Probably five months. Yeah. So definitely not just like.
Um i have a lot more but i'll leave i'll end on just this
one okay um and we've talked about this a lot and
this was this was really hard for me initially we're now
months out and i'm feeling pretty much just fine but um being the one to leave
sometimes means giving the person the gift of getting to play the victim and
you essentially sign off to be like the villain in their story even if you're
not the one that did anything wrong um but that that's okay because you know
your truth. You know how you were treated.
You know how many chances you gave everything that you forgave and every reason you chose to leave.
So you need to just lean into that and find peace. Let them think whatever they
need to, to ease their discomfort, but you know, your truth, you know, your reality.
Um, but I think that can be really hard and that can be a reason that people
stay in relationships because they don't want to be written off as the villain,
the villain or the bad guy, especially when you're the one kind of taking the
hit in the relationship over and over and over.
Um, if you're the one that's like unhappy and you're the one
that feels mistreated and then you leave
and then somehow end up the bad guy like that's a that messes with
the person oh and that's really hard and and that
can feel like literally just the
grossest feeling in the world but you know
the truth and you know the reality and the and i think too
you can kind of go down the like the truth always comes out
type of thing where it's like that person is going to continue the same type of
relationship pattern yep for the rest of their life and the
people in their life are going to see that and going to watch that unfold and
kind of be able to piece together you know absolutely pieces of
it that are actually true and then you know your reality you know
what happened you have every right to leave and that
doesn't make you the bad guy no and choosing yourself is actually
a really powerful and brave thing and it's not you're not the bad guy for choosing
yourself no and i i didn't even realize you had that that one down because i
don't know how much we talked about that but that is one of the most difficult
things that when somebody's trying to leave a marriage or you know a long-term
relationship is it's what i think if I had to put these stages of grief and
loss and those sort of things together,
it's one of these final ones that there's an acceptance,
because the person will continually try to set it up so that they won't be the victim.
Or they won't be the bad guy yeah and i'm telling them man the
sooner you can accept oh you will right then that's
okay yeah but it's you're so right it's hard yeah that's
the one where i make jokes all the time about all the things i learn about that about
even me as a therapist that i change people's sexual
orientation i made them leave their churches i made them leave marriages i made
them change careers i don't have that kind of power right but you get thrown
into that bad guy position all the time because people need you're actually
helping people so much but they need a scapegoat because that person can't just
say you know what I think I was not really the most mature person in the relationship.
I maybe messed up a little bit.
I did some things wrong. It's like that person was bad.
That therapist told him that. And that can be really hard to sit with.
It's not worth. He used to it.
But really it's not worth wasting your time or energy worrying about how that
person's going to spin something. Thanks Mac. That was fun.
Was it? I had a good time. Yeah. Okay. Kind of all over the place.
We're going to go do a little top golfing with a little grandson baby
guy cool good thing and then and i am on the social medias
at virtual couch on instagram at virtual couch on
tiktok where do they find you beauty by mackie on instagram and on the ticking
talk i don't know what it is on there probably okay all right a fun one to follow
though if you have thoughts or questions about this episode please write in.
Because we would do a q a and taking this out per usual wonderful the talented
rora florents with her song it's wonderful because if you do.