WEBVTT

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Have you ever had somebody look you right in the eyes, and I mean really look

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at you and say exactly the thing that you needed to hear?

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The tone was right, the facial expression was right, they maybe even reached

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over, touched your hand or your arm, or might have even been so bold as to grab

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your face in a very safe way, and this is the thing they need you to hear.

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And then they say something like, no, you're right, I hear you,

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and I'm going to do better.

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And in that moment, did you think, okay, that felt amazing, that's a good talk,

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we're good, we're on the same page.

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But then, and I think this is the real question, how many times did that exact

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same scene play out before you start to wonder, hold on, why does this keep happening?

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Why do I keep having the same conversation even when it does feel good?

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It's much better than it's been in the past.

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And why does it even keep feeling resolved without anything actually changing?

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Hey everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.

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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

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And today I have a very special episode for you.

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And it is not just because my daughter Mackie is on the podcast,

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but it's because of the content that we go over.

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We're going to get into something that I think will resonate with so many of

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you because we've been using a phrase around the house for a little while now,

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and I mentioned it on the podcast before. We're calling them mouth sounds.

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People make the right mouth sounds, even the right facial expressions.

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So mouth sounds are when somebody says all the right things.

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They use the right words. They have the right tone of voice.

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They look at you and they look right at your face. And in that moment, it feels amazing.

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You believe them because it's so much better than them shutting down,

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blaming you or getting really angry.

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Of course, you want to believe them. Why wouldn't you?

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Because this is what is so fascinating about the mouth sounds.

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If you said those words, you really believe you would mean them.

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If you told somebody, you know what? This makes so much sense.

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I get it now. I'm going to do better.

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You are thinking to yourself, oh, I would. I would actually go try and do better.

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I would listen to some podcasts. I'd read a book. go to therapy,

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we would start to create an amazing life now that I have said this thing.

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So when somebody says that to you, you're projecting a little bit of your own

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character, your own integrity onto them.

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You're assuming that they operate the way that you operate. And that is not

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a bad thing, it's just a thing.

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That is one of the sneakiest forms of projection there is. Now notice I didn't

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say a negative or a bad thing, but it's pretty tricky.

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And here's what blew my mind in this episode, and Mackie and I really get into

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this, that it works both ways.

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The person making the mouth sounds, they might be projecting too.

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Because in their world, maybe everybody says they're really going to try harder.

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Even whether they think it consciously or subconsciously, then things get in the way.

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People don't necessarily follow through on those things that they say.

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So what if they're not being intentionally deceptive?

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In their experience, this is just what people say. You say the thing,

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you maybe make the face, the tension drops, everybody moves on.

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That's how it works. You meant to follow up on it, but you're not even being

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honest with yourself about what if I don't even really know what I need to do next?

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Because I feel good. I just said the right words. You looked happy with what I said.

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So what if you have two people that are projecting completely different realities

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onto the same conversation and both of them walk away thinking they understood

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what just happened? Great talk, both of you.

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But what if they didn't understand what actually just happened and they weren't

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even close? This is actually where the anxious avoidant attachment dynamic comes in.

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And Mackie and I walk through what I think is one of the most important frameworks

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that I've discovered over the last year or so and that I've been working with in my practice.

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I did a two-part podcast episode about the fictional couple Jack and Jill a

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few months ago, and we go through that in detail again today of how the anxiously attached person,

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Jill, in the scenario, and Jack, the avoidantly attached, are literally wired

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by their childhoods to find each other and to find each other familiar and attractive

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and not in some abstract theoretical way.

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I'm talking about your nervous system recognizes something familiar and tells

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you, oh, this one, this is the one, this feels like home.

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And then I'm going to create some narratives, make up some stories about why it's different though.

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Because even if you had an amazing childhood experience, there are still these

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wounds that are left there of not feeling heard or understood or not having

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your feelings or your emotions validated.

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So even when your home wasn't particularly emotionally safe,

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again, even if you weren't aware of what that even looked like or what that

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felt like, you're going to find something familiar in your partner.

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And then with Mackie, let's just say that she's literally checking boxes in

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real time as I'm reading through the anxious attachment profile.

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You get to watch go check, check, check.

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And then when we get to the avoidant side, then she's saying,

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oh, I don't resonate with that at all.

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But oh my gosh, I have dated that person, which is kind of the whole point.

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Because in a perfect world, you're both going to heal through the relationship,

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heal yourself individually through the relationship.

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What I love about this conversation today is that Mackie also brought a list.

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She came prepared with everything that she's learned from a recent breakup,

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being single again in her twenties, what she wishes she'd known,

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what she's taken forward.

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And then things like feel it, even when your instinct is to run from And we

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even talk about what that means, not just feel your feelings,

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because I think a lot of times people are left to think, I don't want to feel them.

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How long do I have to feel them? What do I even do when I am feeling them?

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She talks about how no feeling is ever final. There's no correct timeline for healing.

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And one that I think is really going to resonate, sometimes being the one who

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leaves means you are admitting or acknowledging that you're handing the other

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person the gift of getting to play the victim and learning how to accept that

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and to be somewhat okay with that can be a real challenge,

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especially when you're the one that feels like you've been trying so hard.

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So whether you're in a relationship right now where you keep having the same

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conversations and it seems that nothing is changing, or you just got out of

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one and you're trying to make sense of what will feel a little bit like nonsense

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or trying to figure out what happened.

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Or maybe you're a parent watching your kids go through it.

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And before we jump in, I want to tell you about something that I've been pouring

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myself into that will go along with a lot of what we talk about today.

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And I don't talk about it within the episode itself.

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Go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic and get on the wait list for the announcement

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of the re-release of my magnetic marriage course.

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Because a lot of what Mackie and I talk about today, why you found your partner

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in the first place, why it essentially had to happen the way that it did.

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I cover all of that in the course. And here's what I would love for you to take away from today.

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Nobody comes off of the factory floor with the tools they need to communicate

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effectively, to be emotionally mature, to show up with consistency,

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to create a magnetic marriage, because you truly don't know what you don't know.

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And I don't say that is just a catchphrase.

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I say it because it's the reality of every single couple that I've worked with,

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including my own marriage of over 36 years, the 1,500 plus couples that I've

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worked with in 20 years of being a couples therapist, that you actually do have

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to go through challenges in a relationship.

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Because we all do, it makes sense that you'll need to go through them before

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you can even realize you need different tools. And then, then actually comes the hard part.

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You have to have the courage to pursue help. You have to be open and vulnerable

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to suggest that you want something to change in your relationship.

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And then you have to go on this hero's journey of finding help that actually works.

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And there's a lot of help out there that I don't necessarily think does help.

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There's even and some that can be to your detriment.

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Then you're going to have to pay for it. You're actually going to have to watch

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the things that you purchase. You're going to have to listen to things,

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not just buy it to feel good.

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Because a lot of times we buy things to feel good about the purchase and you'll

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have to practice it, put whatever it is that you're learning into practice.

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And that will also come with admitting other things that you don't know that

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you don't know. And then this is the one that I think so many people are sitting with right now.

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What if you're the only one willing to put in effort for change?

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Or what if you're the one who is putting in the lion's share of the effort for

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change? and I cover all of that in this course.

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I also cover my four pillars of a connected conversation. I cover the losing

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strategies in relationships that feel so natural you don't even realize that you're running them.

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A lot of these things are things that we did bring into the relationship from

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our childhood, our childhood adaptations that kept us alive. Thanks inner child.

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Thanks champ. But now we need to let the big kids take over and start to heal

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and start to learn to be more mature.

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And I talk about what I call the paradoxical nature of help in general,

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because if what felt natural actually worked all the time, then I would imagine

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we'd all be perfectly happy and our relationships would be amazing all the time, right?

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But it turns out that not talking about difficult things, kicking the can down

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the road, retreating into our bunkers, those things don't work.

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Blaming your partner doesn't work.

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These things feel like they should help because we do them often.

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We saw them modeled from our own parents and we even saw them done to us from our.

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Those are the very things that are keeping you stuck. So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.

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You can do it right now. Get on the wait list because this is not just another

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course that you buy based on the little spark of hope that you feel when you

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hear somebody like me saying these mouth sounds or when you go read a sales

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page and feel really good.

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This is a course that will change you in a way that you can't unchange.

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And I know that is a bold thing to say, but it really is the cliche.

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Once you see it, you can't unsee it. You won't be able to put that relationship

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genie back in the bottle. and I have watched couples heal and grow time and time again.

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And I've also watched people have the tools right in front of them.

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And it's so uncomfortable that they just decide they'll do it later.

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I've watched all that happen and I'll address that in this course.

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So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.

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Follow me on social media. I'm going to talk a lot more about that.

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I'm going to have more clips that are leading up to the course.

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Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch, on TikTok at virtualcouch.

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Find my substack, substack.thevirtualcouch.com.

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I want all your questions, your comments, your feedback.

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Keep sending in your relationship questions. Give me all the details you want.

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And some of that might make it into a future podcast as well.

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Okay. My thanks to Mackie for joining me. Let's get right to it. Let me go, Mel.

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Otherwise, you'll hear it and then I'll get mad at myself later on account of

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mouth sounds. I know. Which you don't like, misophonia?

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Yeah, I'm diseased. I just saw some article about that and I didn't read it enough.

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I don't remember if it said misophonia is a sign of genius or the opposite of that. Okay.

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But it was something like that. But it really was something about misophonia

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and if you have a problem with chewing and that sort of thing.

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I'll have to go look it up before I try to speak. Yeah, watch it before you tell me I have problems.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.

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I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and

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this is my daughter Mackie.

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Hi Mackie. Hi, Tony. Also, you are host of The Mind, The Mirror,

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and Me, which needs to make it come back. Years ago.

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I know. Did you enjoy it though while you did it? Yeah, it was fun.

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We have a few. We've got some... Yeah, there's 20 something of them. Yeah. Yeah.

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And I can even run this on there. You can throw this on there.

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Sure. Yeah. So if you're coming from there, welcome back to The Mind,

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The Mirror, and Me. That's right.

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I don't remember anything I would say to start it, so we'll just fly past that.

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Yeah. I think we did, but my life looks very different than when we used it.

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It really does. I was curious.

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I've been, I don't want to say begging you to come on, but I think that's kind of fair.

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Whenever I leave the house, I'm like, hey, if you're not doing anything,

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if you want to come over. You could probably record.

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And you know, today when I walked by to leave for my office.

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Were you going to say it? Yeah, I was going to.

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But then I just thought, you know what? I just will go to my office and get

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some things done. It's a weekend. And I would come in here and I was going to write and maybe record.

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And then you texted me. And I volunteered myself.

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That's a lesson in itself right there. It is. Can't push people or something. Honestly.

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People's permission and you let them do their thing. Yeah. Yeah,

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things that I've just been reading

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about not being so pursue-y and just allowing things to unfold more.

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Interesting. It's a good thing. There's something there. There is.

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But today, I thought it would be fun to talk about fun.

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To put me on the spot. A little bit, a little bit. So let's just say hypothetically

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that you went through a breakup a few months ago.

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Maybe not hypothetically that happened. Maybe it really did happen.

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It really did. And that was my life. Yeah. A couple months ago.

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And you had been in a long-term relationship. It had been well over a year.

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Really two. And this is not to discourage that person at all,

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but the data that we got from it was pretty fantastic.

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Fantastic, amazing, interesting. I know. I don't know if I was going to say something.

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I don't know what I was going to say. Oh, fascinating. Very fascinating. Yeah.

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And we'll just let this unfold is maybe a good way to put it.

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And what was really interesting, we've been

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using the phrase around the house and I said it to my podcast listeners

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when somebody uses or says the right mouth sounds

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and they really say the right things that

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fit in that moment when you're expressing what you really need

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or what you're frustrated with and that person says the right

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things and they might even say it with the right tone of voice the right

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facial expressions and so why would you not

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think okay cool good talk and believe

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you and trust that you mean what you say and then things

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don't necessarily change yeah and so

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then when you get frustrated later and it could be a week a

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month two months later something happened happening again

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then you get frustrated about it and then the

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person oh my gosh you're right doubles down

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on the mouth sounds yeah so i don't know where do you go with that

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talk about that i i have so many thoughts on

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that and i think the more i've talked about this with my friends and people

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it's very normal people are really good at saying the mouth sounds they really

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are and then not following through the actions but i think specifically it's

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hard i think that'd be hard for anyone in any situation but i think one thing

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i realized is I've always been a words of affirmation person.

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I resonate really deeply with words.

00:13:27.388 --> 00:13:30.608
Therefore, I believe words when I hear them.

00:13:30.928 --> 00:13:35.808
And if I use my words, I typically mean what I'm saying. And I know that I'll

00:13:35.808 --> 00:13:36.608
follow through with that.

00:13:37.008 --> 00:13:42.128
When somebody tells me something, I typically believe it and I, or I want to believe it.

00:13:42.288 --> 00:13:48.728
Or I just, I don't know, that's how I like receive love. So I believe it. I trust it.

00:13:48.828 --> 00:13:53.348
And so I fell into a little cycle there of believing, even though the actions were never.

00:13:54.198 --> 00:13:57.438
And i like what you just said because i didn't even think about the concept

00:13:57.438 --> 00:14:00.378
of projection right now but i do the similar thing

00:14:00.378 --> 00:14:03.118
you were projecting onto somebody that if i'm going to say

00:14:03.118 --> 00:14:05.898
this thing i really mean it so then if they're going to say the thing

00:14:05.898 --> 00:14:09.318
then i'm assuming they must mean it too yeah exactly and

00:14:09.318 --> 00:14:12.058
what's funny is you can even take that in the way of the

00:14:12.058 --> 00:14:15.178
person who is saying it in the moment that i

00:14:15.178 --> 00:14:18.298
don't know if they're subconsciously or consciously thinking if

00:14:18.298 --> 00:14:21.478
their version of projection would be no everybody says

00:14:21.478 --> 00:14:24.338
that they're going to try harder and they kind of don't because that's

00:14:24.338 --> 00:14:27.478
what that person is doing absolutely so they're projecting your

00:14:27.478 --> 00:14:30.638
project parties are projecting yeah isn't that wild yeah

00:14:30.638 --> 00:14:33.578
and I think that that's a it's an interesting concept just

00:14:33.578 --> 00:14:36.378
in relationships in general that I feel like I've noticed to like even

00:14:36.378 --> 00:14:39.258
stepping back into dating I think it's hard

00:14:39.258 --> 00:14:42.558
going into relationships because you do just assume that people work the way

00:14:42.558 --> 00:14:47.258
that you work and it's like even a really great person isn't gonna work the

00:14:47.258 --> 00:14:50.318
exact way that you work and that's something to navigate in any relationship

00:14:50.318 --> 00:14:53.698
and that's just always interesting and you think that people will be affected

00:14:53.698 --> 00:14:56.918
by things the way you will you know that's just the natural way to think of it and so it's,

00:14:57.638 --> 00:15:03.018
it's interesting to meet new people and learn things that way and then try to

00:15:03.018 --> 00:15:06.098
learn how to show up for somebody and vice versa maybe this could be kind of

00:15:06.098 --> 00:15:10.478
a fun muse to work through is i'm going to pull up this why the anxious and

00:15:10.478 --> 00:15:11.458
the avoidant find each other.

00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:14.960
And have we talked about this or really gone into the origin story?

00:15:15.420 --> 00:15:19.320
I don't know. Because I'm blown away by this. We are two anxious pals.

00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:21.600
Yeah, we are. We definitely are.

00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.860
And so I tell the story of Jack and Jill. So I'd love to see where you fit into

00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:28.860
this. Even though as your dad, this might be a little awkward.

00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:31.780
Because it has to do with our parents for the most part.

00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:35.260
Right? And as your parent. You are my parent. I am.

00:15:35.800 --> 00:15:39.900
So the anxious, which is Jill in this scenario. And it's really funny.

00:15:40.040 --> 00:15:41.880
On one of the men's groups that I do a lot of work with.

00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:45.060
When i was sharing this because i did a two-part episode on this

00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:48.140
anxious and avoidant pattern jack and jill and more guys

00:15:48.140 --> 00:15:51.100
identified as the avoidant and more

00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.940
women identified as the anxious but this

00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:58.680
is wild jill's story learning to chase connection in this scenario i talked

00:15:58.680 --> 00:16:03.020
about her childhood was marked by unpredictability man now it's funny because

00:16:03.020 --> 00:16:07.300
now i don't want to have this is just a hypothetical story because in the jill

00:16:07.300 --> 00:16:11.780
story it's the mom was the one that was unpredictable and And then to the avoidant,

00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:15.260
the Jack story, his dad was kind of the real jerk. But again,

00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:16.560
this is just something to interact with.

00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.040
In this one, her mother, struggling with untreated anxiety and depression,

00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.400
oscillated between emotional absence and emotional flooding.

00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:25.020
So when Jill was upset, sometimes her mom didn't notice.

00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.020
Sometimes she noticed, but she didn't respond. And sometimes,

00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.380
most confusingly, Jill's emotions would trigger her mom's collapse,

00:16:31.380 --> 00:16:34.000
and suddenly Jill would find herself managing her mom's feelings.

00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:38.440
If Jill came up with big feelings or big emotions, sometimes to her mom,

00:16:38.540 --> 00:16:40.160
that would be like, oh man, that's overwhelming.

00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:43.200
So hey just don't worry about it like you need

00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.160
to calm down and that's an origin story of

00:16:46.160 --> 00:16:50.720
so many of the anxiously attached some of this pattern of inconsistency i had

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.140
on my notes here when jill didn't make a soccer team her mom didn't really notice

00:16:54.140 --> 00:16:58.300
when she got to be on a math test at 10 then her mom was like man i never i

00:16:58.300 --> 00:17:02.080
didn't teach you well enough when her first boyfriend broke up with her 15 her

00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.180
mom said it's not even a big deal you'll get over it.

00:17:04.893 --> 00:17:07.753
And then her dad was physically present, but emotionally absent,

00:17:07.893 --> 00:17:11.073
a kind man who worked long hours and seemed relieved to retreat into his workshop

00:17:11.073 --> 00:17:13.933
on weekends away from his wife's unpredictability. He didn't intervene.

00:17:14.093 --> 00:17:16.873
He didn't model a different way. But here's the stuff that I think when I would

00:17:16.873 --> 00:17:21.093
read this part and every, and I'm talking right now, every relationship is anxious

00:17:21.093 --> 00:17:23.273
and avoidant as far as I can tell.

00:17:23.613 --> 00:17:26.273
And you'll see why, because it's the way we heal from them.

00:17:26.653 --> 00:17:29.933
But so then what Jill's nervous system learned that connection is unstable and

00:17:29.933 --> 00:17:33.353
might vanish without warning. And again, as an anxious, I identify with you.

00:17:34.173 --> 00:17:38.593
Right? I mean, we'll even set the... I think all people end up,

00:17:38.613 --> 00:17:44.453
for the most part, all, is pretty much all that I can tell, land in this anxious or avoidant camp.

00:17:44.853 --> 00:17:48.433
When somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong. Holy cow, do I feel that one.

00:17:48.913 --> 00:17:51.873
I need to pursue harder, be more, do more to keep people engaged.

00:17:52.695 --> 00:17:55.735
My feelings are either too much or not enough, and I can't tell which.

00:17:56.535 --> 00:18:00.295
I'm responsible for other people's emotional states. And if I can be attentive

00:18:00.295 --> 00:18:02.495
enough, loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay.

00:18:03.255 --> 00:18:06.955
Isn't that wild? Then by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system

00:18:06.955 --> 00:18:09.795
was wired for vigilance. She scanned faces looking for signs of withdrawal.

00:18:10.095 --> 00:18:12.655
She texted friends immediately, worried if they didn't respond.

00:18:12.915 --> 00:18:14.875
Okay, you're out on that one then. You don't text back.

00:18:15.355 --> 00:18:18.375
I don't text back, but then if people don't text me back, I panic. Okay, okay.

00:18:18.855 --> 00:18:21.615
She volunteered for everything, helped everybody, and made herself indispensable

00:18:21.615 --> 00:18:23.635
because if she were needed, then people wouldn't leave.

00:18:24.175 --> 00:18:28.335
Whoa! Deep. Her core belief, connection is uncertain and I have to work to secure it.

00:18:28.615 --> 00:18:31.295
And I felt like that's just the story of my life. That's the basis of anxious

00:18:31.295 --> 00:18:32.375
attachment. Yep. Yep. Yep.

00:18:33.055 --> 00:18:36.095
So now, enter Jack. He had this abusive... I don't know much about Jack.

00:18:36.275 --> 00:18:38.915
I know the avoidant is fascinating. I don't. And we'll talk about this too.

00:18:39.115 --> 00:18:42.655
I so do not resonate with this. Jack had this abusive, critical father and an

00:18:42.655 --> 00:18:43.855
absent, emotionally withdrawn mom.

00:18:44.015 --> 00:18:46.515
He learned from his childhood that when things got hard, people either attack

00:18:46.515 --> 00:18:48.075
or disappear. sometimes both.

00:18:48.355 --> 00:18:51.795
When he was cut from a team, his dad said, well, you should have practiced more.

00:18:51.995 --> 00:18:55.335
When Jack was nervous before a debate competition at 14, his dad said,

00:18:55.655 --> 00:18:57.655
either you're prepared or not. You shouldn't be worrying about it.

00:18:57.875 --> 00:18:59.415
And when he struggled after he

00:18:59.415 --> 00:19:02.655
had a family pet pass away, his dad told him, man up. It was just a dog.

00:19:03.335 --> 00:19:06.815
And mom didn't intervene. She was kind in small, quiet ways,

00:19:07.015 --> 00:19:10.995
packed his favorite lunch, left him notes, but she never stood up to his dad.

00:19:11.455 --> 00:19:15.975
So what his nervous system learned, and again, after I've read the anxious to

00:19:15.975 --> 00:19:19.715
the anxious person and then a couple setting, they're like, wow, that really hits.

00:19:19.855 --> 00:19:22.535
And then I'm not avoidant. So I would read this one going like,

00:19:22.695 --> 00:19:26.175
and is this at all? And then that person's crying on the couch too.

00:19:27.355 --> 00:19:30.935
Showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection. Other people's emotions are

00:19:30.935 --> 00:19:31.815
dangerous and overwhelming.

00:19:32.175 --> 00:19:36.435
When conflict arises, disappearing is the safe option. That one we will come back to.

00:19:37.035 --> 00:19:41.055
If I stay quiet and shut down, things will blow over. Being needed feels like being trapped.

00:19:41.395 --> 00:19:44.475
Feelings are weakness and weakness gets punished. And connection means somebody

00:19:44.475 --> 00:19:46.075
will either criticize me or fall apart on me.

00:19:46.870 --> 00:19:52.950
I know, right? So when we are pursuing someone saying, no, I just want you to see me or understand me.

00:19:53.050 --> 00:19:55.950
Their walls are shooting up and they are out of it. Yeah. And that's where,

00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:58.990
when I would talk to the avoidant, they would say, oh, absolutely. I feel criticized.

00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:04.570
And even if I say, I'm saying that nice face, the gentle mouth sounds,

00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:07.510
they're like, right, but you're mad at me.

00:20:08.270 --> 00:20:11.750
Interesting. So interesting. So then he became the kid who was fine with everything,

00:20:11.930 --> 00:20:14.790
didn't ask for help, didn't share when things were hard, learned to solve problems

00:20:14.790 --> 00:20:16.050
alone in his room with the door closed.

00:20:16.290 --> 00:20:19.230
He realized that his father's criticism hurt less if he didn't react to it.

00:20:19.370 --> 00:20:22.270
He learned the safest place was inside his own head where nobody could see him.

00:20:22.510 --> 00:20:26.390
So by the time he left for college, his nervous system was wired for self-protection through withdrawal.

00:20:27.090 --> 00:20:31.190
Emotions, his own or others, were like threats. Closeness felt like suffocation

00:20:31.190 --> 00:20:32.470
and independence was survival.

00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:36.290
So his core belief connection was dangerous and I have to protect myself through distance.

00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:41.230
So there's your origin story. I mean, it makes sense, which is like when you

00:20:41.230 --> 00:20:43.290
lay it out that I understand the avoidant.

00:20:43.750 --> 00:20:48.570
I don't resonate with it, but I can see like how that would lead to that.

00:20:48.710 --> 00:20:51.670
I've definitely met people that do those things and act that way.

00:20:51.850 --> 00:20:54.330
Yeah, so when they withdraw or they say the right mouth sounds,

00:20:54.590 --> 00:20:57.890
they're kind of saying, okay, is that enough? And then, are we okay?

00:20:58.772 --> 00:21:01.792
And then hoping to just move past yeah yeah okay we're fine but does

00:21:01.792 --> 00:21:04.612
it make you then wonder well then why on earth did we find each other

00:21:04.612 --> 00:21:07.952
absolutely because then how is it not a constant this

00:21:07.952 --> 00:21:11.092
is this battle this is so wild so

00:21:11.092 --> 00:21:13.932
in this scenario they meet at this professional conference they're both in their

00:21:13.932 --> 00:21:18.712
20s the initial attraction felt like finally something different but what jill

00:21:18.712 --> 00:21:22.012
saw in jack after a lifetime of her mom's emotional chaos he felt like calm

00:21:22.012 --> 00:21:25.872
water he was quiet reserved he didn't dominate the conversation or perform for

00:21:25.872 --> 00:21:29.492
attention he seemed solid and grounded Her nervous system says,

00:21:30.052 --> 00:21:32.812
finally, somebody who won't fall apart, somebody stable, I won't have to take care of.

00:21:33.072 --> 00:21:35.852
So she sees the avoidant basically as grounded.

00:21:37.112 --> 00:21:39.812
And that one makes sense. What

00:21:39.812 --> 00:21:43.532
he sees in her, Jill was attentive and responsive. She replied quickly.

00:21:43.692 --> 00:21:46.292
She asked thoughtful questions and made plans. She made eye contact.

00:21:46.292 --> 00:21:48.012
She leaned in. She remembered details.

00:21:48.292 --> 00:21:51.232
So for him, who spent his entire life feeling either criticized or invisible,

00:21:51.632 --> 00:21:53.532
all of a sudden, this person sees him.

00:21:53.872 --> 00:21:56.932
So he says, man, somebody thinks I'm interesting and somebody wants to know

00:21:56.932 --> 00:22:00.972
about me. It makes so much sense, it's kind of crazy, but what neither of them

00:22:00.972 --> 00:22:04.232
realized, they were both each attracted to the familiar dynamic.

00:22:05.312 --> 00:22:08.112
That's a cool, I didn't even know that was a ringtone thing.

00:22:08.432 --> 00:22:10.852
That's my alarm. Okay, it's time to wake up. Yep.

00:22:11.969 --> 00:22:16.249
But so what they need to realize they were attracted to the familiar dynamic disguises as opposite.

00:22:16.509 --> 00:22:18.969
So Jill's anxious attachment made her hypervigilant to connection,

00:22:19.289 --> 00:22:20.609
which looked like she was attentive.

00:22:21.029 --> 00:22:24.029
And then Jack's avoidant attachment made him emotionally reserved,

00:22:24.029 --> 00:22:26.349
which initially looked like stability and independence.

00:22:27.229 --> 00:22:32.169
So then my mind was blown because then I started talking about it's just the familiar.

00:22:32.649 --> 00:22:36.969
Yeah. So your nervous system finds the familiar. And then you would just click initially.

00:22:37.329 --> 00:22:40.449
Yeah. And it would seem good. Totally. And that's what's really interesting

00:22:40.449 --> 00:22:45.269
is so now they get together and boy, this actually then fast forwards into maybe

00:22:45.269 --> 00:22:49.689
some of the stuff you've experienced dating so far, where now that person does

00:22:49.689 --> 00:22:51.349
seem like, man, they've got their crap together.

00:22:51.789 --> 00:22:54.109
Wow, I'm having a moment here too. Yeah, I did too when you were reading the

00:22:54.109 --> 00:22:55.309
avoidant one. I was like, oh.

00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:58.889
And so, oh my gosh, yeah. But then you come up with. Disappearing,

00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:00.529
the emotions being too much. Oh, yeah.

00:23:00.969 --> 00:23:03.869
Oh, I didn't think about that. So then you go through, you went,

00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:06.549
you had this relationship that was starting off pretty darn good.

00:23:06.549 --> 00:23:11.289
But then there was an event that occurred that nobody could have seen coming.

00:23:11.729 --> 00:23:14.509
You had something really big happen at work with somebody.

00:23:14.989 --> 00:23:18.489
Somebody went through a tragedy and then you go to this person and you say,

00:23:18.629 --> 00:23:23.109
man, I need somebody to talk to.

00:23:23.709 --> 00:23:29.989
And then he, oh boy. Yeah. Go back to like, he felt like dangerous and overwhelming.

00:23:30.289 --> 00:23:33.009
Yep. When conflict arises, disappearing, if he

00:23:33.009 --> 00:23:35.909
stays quiet or shuts down things will blow over being needed felt

00:23:35.909 --> 00:23:38.949
like being trapped absolutely this is crazy and then dipped and

00:23:38.949 --> 00:23:41.889
dipped and then wanted you to think you were crazy

00:23:41.889 --> 00:23:45.789
for having emotions and feelings and meanwhile i i

00:23:45.789 --> 00:23:48.569
felt so seen because you were saying the right the right things

00:23:48.569 --> 00:23:51.329
the things that i so love were you were going through

00:23:51.329 --> 00:23:55.429
life for the very first time as you and that thing happened and you were emoting

00:23:55.429 --> 00:24:00.169
yep what's wrong with that i don't think there's anything wrong with feeling

00:24:00.169 --> 00:24:05.649
feelings so no to me nothing but again I'm an anxious attachment big feelings

00:24:05.649 --> 00:24:10.489
yeah all right what else is coming up for you here hearing that stuff well now I'm just.

00:24:12.059 --> 00:24:15.039
I have more questions which we talked about this you and

00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.519
i asked you questions about this not that long ago but talking

00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.159
about how you can learn to balance your attachment

00:24:22.159 --> 00:24:24.839
style but you typically won't swing to the other

00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.819
side yeah which makes sense based off of knowing the backing of

00:24:27.819 --> 00:24:30.539
it like that you'd have to change a lot of things to swing to

00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:33.159
the other side but then i

00:24:33.159 --> 00:24:36.239
guess my question is once you get past that initial things seem

00:24:36.239 --> 00:24:39.019
like they're clicking but then the reality sets in of the way that

00:24:39.019 --> 00:24:41.739
the other person works how do people even then go

00:24:41.739 --> 00:24:44.639
about that yeah and if you're saying most relationships do tend

00:24:44.639 --> 00:24:47.539
to be anxious and avoidant and currently i'm going to reserve a

00:24:47.539 --> 00:24:50.439
tiny bit of i know that there are things i don't know

00:24:50.439 --> 00:24:55.479
that i don't know yet because where i'm at is it does seem a challenge because

00:24:55.479 --> 00:24:59.919
the anxious which we are you can learn to that's why i've been so fascinated

00:24:59.919 --> 00:25:03.059
by differentiation because that's about maintaining connection with somebody

00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:09.099
you care about while learning who you are or finding yourself or being autonomous in the relationship.

00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:14.059
Because that first point of balance of differentiation is learning to know who

00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:19.159
I am without needing the other person to validate it or tell me this is who I am.

00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:23.519
Now, I would love for that person to validate me, but ultimately I need to know

00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:28.539
that, oh, I am... You don't need that to be valued or to feel seen.

00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:33.599
What I think is a struggle is, as an anxious, I can learn to not continue to

00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.179
need that person to tell me I'm okay. I can learn to soothe myself.

00:25:37.439 --> 00:25:40.739
I can learn to stay more grounded and not get really angry when they don't show

00:25:40.739 --> 00:25:43.279
up. These are the first three points of balance differentiation.

00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:47.339
And the fourth one is, I'm going to realize growth is going to come from the discomfort.

00:25:47.679 --> 00:25:52.099
And if I'm being presented with something that there's truth in,

00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:54.039
then actually I'll take ownership of it.

00:25:54.199 --> 00:25:57.659
And I'll even, and here was the key, and I'll even do something about it to change.

00:25:58.199 --> 00:26:02.539
Because what the avoidant tends to do is go back to like your breakup,

00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:05.399
where that person, when you finally would bring it to them, and they would go,

00:26:05.739 --> 00:26:07.779
okay, no, you're right. I need to do better.

00:26:08.576 --> 00:26:11.336
That's where i started looking at from differentiation oh that

00:26:11.336 --> 00:26:14.136
is the right mouth sound but then they feel better

00:26:14.136 --> 00:26:17.136
and you feel better and then they don't do anything

00:26:17.136 --> 00:26:20.056
exactly so in differentiation it's like not only taking ownership

00:26:20.056 --> 00:26:24.756
of your own stuff but then making effort for change and so what i'm noticing

00:26:24.756 --> 00:26:32.216
is that as an anxious i can work on myself and then but i'm still wanting connection

00:26:32.216 --> 00:26:37.376
so bad and my understanding and i have read two whole books on the avoidance

00:26:37.376 --> 00:26:38.456
So I'm basically an expert.

00:26:38.776 --> 00:26:43.156
Okay. No, but it's funny because I do so much couples work that when you identify

00:26:43.156 --> 00:26:47.936
this, the avoidant often just, it seems to, they feel relief when the anxious

00:26:47.936 --> 00:26:50.036
is no longer just being so clingy.

00:26:50.516 --> 00:26:54.636
Interesting. But I don't know that they will ever think of the relationship

00:26:54.636 --> 00:26:56.076
as much as the anxious does.

00:26:56.376 --> 00:26:59.236
And it doesn't mean they don't care. And it doesn't mean they don't love the person.

00:26:59.576 --> 00:27:03.636
Which is, that's so foreign. I can't imagine not thinking about it. Same girl.

00:27:04.876 --> 00:27:08.056
That's bizarre to me. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's the challenge.

00:27:08.296 --> 00:27:12.056
It's like the anxious can grow more calm and confident and differentiated and

00:27:12.056 --> 00:27:15.896
grounded and not need validation, but they still want that connection.

00:27:16.156 --> 00:27:20.776
And the avoidant may feel, and I'm going to own the fact that this is probably

00:27:20.776 --> 00:27:23.676
not the reality of all avoidant attached people.

00:27:24.771 --> 00:27:29.471
It seems that often what will come up in sessions is the anxious is the one

00:27:29.471 --> 00:27:32.091
that has been trying to figure out things. They've been reading the books and

00:27:32.091 --> 00:27:32.811
listening to the podcast.

00:27:33.171 --> 00:27:36.811
And then they try to present something new to the avoidant. And I go back up

00:27:36.811 --> 00:27:39.431
to this part where and then the avoidant takes that as criticism. Right.

00:27:39.791 --> 00:27:43.411
And has to run away from that. Yeah. And so then they know the right things

00:27:43.411 --> 00:27:48.251
to say to then kind of attack or put the anxious on their heels a bit.

00:27:48.811 --> 00:27:51.671
And then the anxious gets flustered and upset. and then my

00:27:51.671 --> 00:27:54.911
joke which I got to go to jokes is then the anxious now the

00:27:54.911 --> 00:27:57.711
avoidant just has to say I just kind of think you think

00:27:57.711 --> 00:28:01.191
you're right and I'm wrong and then the anxious like oh man I'm gonna go on

00:28:01.191 --> 00:28:05.771
a hero's journey for the next year and figure out am I doing that and I'll come

00:28:05.771 --> 00:28:10.491
back and say I have figured it out and then the avoidant just has to go no I

00:28:10.491 --> 00:28:15.251
think you're still pretty arrogant and then the anxious like okay I'll be back.

00:28:16.273 --> 00:28:20.253
But then here comes the projection of the, I think the anxious is often thinking,

00:28:20.653 --> 00:28:22.573
well, I'm sure the avoidant, they're doing it too.

00:28:22.733 --> 00:28:25.713
They're over there on their hero's journey. Because you only know your way of

00:28:25.713 --> 00:28:30.033
going about it. And it's easy to assume that everyone else is going to do the same thing. Yeah.

00:28:30.253 --> 00:28:34.473
But often what happens, and I'm just saying, I'm 100% owning the pattern recognition

00:28:34.473 --> 00:28:35.553
of this as a couples therapist.

00:28:35.913 --> 00:28:39.413
That then the avoidant will often say, yeah, but they were telling me I'm not

00:28:39.413 --> 00:28:41.133
even doing my work. And I'm doing work.

00:28:41.293 --> 00:28:43.953
And then the anxious kind of looks hesitant.

00:28:44.153 --> 00:28:47.813
Then I'll say, oh, okay. Well, tell them. like tell them what you're doing and

00:28:47.813 --> 00:28:52.053
then sometimes it's i'm doing my work i'm thinking about this stuff a lot you

00:28:52.053 --> 00:28:56.433
know and then who's to say that what they're doing is wrong right it's the way

00:28:56.433 --> 00:29:00.653
they're doing it right then even when you can say well what would it look like if you,

00:29:01.373 --> 00:29:06.873
wanted to read the same book together or listen to podcasts together or and

00:29:06.873 --> 00:29:10.713
then you'll find that sometimes the avoidant will even go you know what i'm

00:29:10.713 --> 00:29:13.533
on it that sounds i can do that and i'm sitting.

00:29:14.313 --> 00:29:17.013
They're going okay cool and then the anxious like okay that was

00:29:17.013 --> 00:29:19.813
great and then everybody leaves great session come back

00:29:19.813 --> 00:29:22.693
in a week or two i'm like all right how's the whole book thing going and then

00:29:22.693 --> 00:29:25.733
it's like the cover yeah so

00:29:25.733 --> 00:29:27.793
i think that's that's a challenge so i don't know if that's kind of where you're

00:29:27.793 --> 00:29:28.993
going with your question it's

00:29:28.993 --> 00:29:32.033
just kind of a constant trying to balance it well the

00:29:32.033 --> 00:29:35.113
path forward requires both people to recognize the pattern take responsibility

00:29:35.113 --> 00:29:38.273
for their own healing and slowly rewire their nervous systems for secure connection

00:29:38.273 --> 00:29:41.653
it's possible but it requires seeing what's actually happening beneath the surface

00:29:41.653 --> 00:29:46.273
of this dance that they do work on both sides it's fascinating to look at what

00:29:46.273 --> 00:29:51.433
your last brief relationship looked like because it looked amazing and then

00:29:51.433 --> 00:29:55.693
it just checks out that as you started bringing things up that weren't,

00:29:56.342 --> 00:30:01.522
in the opening script? Yeah. Like the first few pages of the script of the movie? Yeah.

00:30:01.842 --> 00:30:04.442
Going a little bit real. Yeah. And then I was like, okay.

00:30:04.922 --> 00:30:08.362
So are there anything that you want to talk about even from your previous relationship

00:30:08.362 --> 00:30:12.602
where when you look back then it's like, wait, these things weren't that crazy

00:30:12.602 --> 00:30:14.222
to want in the relationship?

00:30:14.622 --> 00:30:17.402
Oh, almost every single piece of it.

00:30:17.602 --> 00:30:22.662
And I spent that whole relationship basically just waiting for the bare minimum

00:30:22.662 --> 00:30:27.482
to happen and then hearing the right mouth noises and then never.

00:30:28.435 --> 00:30:32.015
Seeing that so it's like literally i mean i'm talking everything like waiting

00:30:32.015 --> 00:30:35.095
for trust to be there waiting to feel seen

00:30:35.095 --> 00:30:38.075
feel valued feel considered but the consideration thing

00:30:38.075 --> 00:30:41.755
is the biggest thing that's one thing i've learned that people

00:30:41.755 --> 00:30:44.515
will say that consideration is like the highest form of love tell me

00:30:44.515 --> 00:30:47.315
what that looks like too because you're right this gets brought up a lot and then sometimes

00:30:47.315 --> 00:30:50.035
i think it's hard for people to define what it would even mean to be considered

00:30:50.035 --> 00:30:53.195
and i think it would depend person to person what they need but i'm thinking

00:30:53.195 --> 00:30:56.315
of like me in that relationship there were so many things where it was just

00:30:56.315 --> 00:31:00.055
like you made that decision and you did not think about me or how it would affect

00:31:00.055 --> 00:31:03.715
me or what I would think of it. And even if it was your decision.

00:31:04.095 --> 00:31:04.835
We're in a relationship.

00:31:04.915 --> 00:31:08.575
So it does then affect me, but you didn't think about anything like that.

00:31:08.675 --> 00:31:13.155
Or you made these plans and didn't consider if I, you know, you'd be involved or you'd wait.

00:31:13.395 --> 00:31:18.815
And I'm thinking even just dumb things of say there's an event coming up and

00:31:18.815 --> 00:31:23.275
this person would not let me know about it until the day of and would have known

00:31:23.275 --> 00:31:25.435
about it for weeks, but then would get mad at me if I couldn't go.

00:31:25.435 --> 00:31:28.815
And it's like but you didn't consider me and

00:31:28.815 --> 00:31:31.675
that i would need to know and that i need to plan that you didn't tell me well it's

00:31:31.675 --> 00:31:34.395
staying on that one too because then that person because i've had so many of those

00:31:34.395 --> 00:31:37.235
kind of conversations and even if i'm using my four pillars i would

00:31:37.235 --> 00:31:40.855
let's say that you guys were doing that in a couple study and then you would

00:31:40.855 --> 00:31:44.135
bring it up and then i would say okay we're gonna go to him we're gonna assume

00:31:44.135 --> 00:31:47.655
good intentions he didn't think i'm gonna wait till the last minute so we're

00:31:47.655 --> 00:31:50.775
gonna assume he wasn't trying to hurt you we're gonna he's gonna mention that

00:31:50.775 --> 00:31:54.055
he forgot or whatever and then my pillar two you can't tell him that's ridiculous

00:31:54.055 --> 00:31:55.655
or I don't even believe him,

00:31:55.755 --> 00:31:59.355
but I would make a pause and say, even if you do think it's ridiculous and you don't believe him.

00:31:59.535 --> 00:32:02.355
And then pillar three, then let's go into questions before comments.

00:32:02.495 --> 00:32:04.675
So questions like saying, well, when did you know?

00:32:05.035 --> 00:32:08.335
And did you think about it? And then that will either expose the immaturity

00:32:08.335 --> 00:32:10.015
of the person either just saying.

00:32:10.755 --> 00:32:13.575
Honestly i didn't or that's the time where i

00:32:13.575 --> 00:32:16.315
think the avoidant could theoretically grow because i want

00:32:16.315 --> 00:32:19.295
them to have the courage to say honestly i don't

00:32:19.295 --> 00:32:22.235
or i think about it in the moment and i don't think about it again yeah

00:32:22.235 --> 00:32:25.075
even though that would hurt you yeah would that be better

00:32:25.075 --> 00:32:27.935
to know absolutely okay instead of the well

00:32:27.935 --> 00:32:30.655
i don't know i didn't think i don't know i just i don't know like just that

00:32:30.655 --> 00:32:33.635
and it's like well what do i do with that then all of a sudden pillar four which

00:32:33.635 --> 00:32:36.335
is the one that i'm realizing more and more is difficult for the avoidant is that

00:32:36.335 --> 00:32:39.955
person goes into a victim mode and goes man you're

00:32:39.955 --> 00:32:43.235
right I just suck yeah would you ever hear that every

00:32:43.235 --> 00:32:45.955
time there was anything because then what would you

00:32:45.955 --> 00:32:49.475
and I ended up apologizing and comforting when

00:32:49.475 --> 00:32:52.395
I was the one bringing something up that like I needed

00:32:52.395 --> 00:32:55.175
comfort or I needed you know yeah to feel

00:32:55.175 --> 00:32:58.315
seen and then it always ended with me I'm so

00:32:58.315 --> 00:33:00.955
sorry I didn't mean that and whatever and then he's gonna

00:33:00.955 --> 00:33:03.915
go I mean I'm saying and the next day I'd be like what just right

00:33:03.915 --> 00:33:06.895
and in that moment guys like it's okay yeah it's okay you're

00:33:06.895 --> 00:33:09.575
like okay well and then i guess i feel bad but i

00:33:09.575 --> 00:33:12.455
guess we're good and then yeah that so that's the dance oh

00:33:12.455 --> 00:33:15.415
yeah and that was this cycle over and over and over so

00:33:15.415 --> 00:33:20.875
it takes a lot for the anxious to then stay grounded and generally curious but

00:33:20.875 --> 00:33:25.715
then it also takes courage for the avoidant to then own up to the fact of man

00:33:25.715 --> 00:33:29.295
yeah this is a pattern of mine yeah and i don't think about it again i like

00:33:29.295 --> 00:33:33.155
that i don't consider you yeah because they they're They're so scared that if

00:33:33.155 --> 00:33:35.075
they say that, then you'll be like, well, I'm done then.

00:33:36.105 --> 00:33:38.845
Because if you if they would acknowledge you're right i am not

00:33:38.845 --> 00:33:42.405
considering you and it isn't just the mouth sound said because

00:33:42.405 --> 00:33:45.245
then i don't know if it always has to be the therapist but then says okay well

00:33:45.245 --> 00:33:48.045
what do you need to do in order to show her that you

00:33:48.045 --> 00:33:50.945
do consider her yeah and usually the number one answer is i don't

00:33:50.945 --> 00:33:53.605
know yeah i was like that doesn't cut it anymore it doesn't

00:33:53.605 --> 00:33:56.365
do anything that doesn't fix it and i think it's interesting too that just the

00:33:56.365 --> 00:33:59.845
consideration thing though there's so many little ways to make

00:33:59.845 --> 00:34:02.865
someone feel considered i just feel like just remembering

00:34:02.865 --> 00:34:05.905
little things about someone is such a

00:34:05.905 --> 00:34:08.685
just like oh like you cared enough to remember that and it's like the amount

00:34:08.685 --> 00:34:11.425
of times i had to repeat myself or had to say

00:34:11.425 --> 00:34:15.465
things again how at this point how do you not know that thing and it just was

00:34:15.465 --> 00:34:18.205
again it's like i would remember that about you like why would you know what

00:34:18.205 --> 00:34:23.085
i mean like just those little things but to just show you care and you just

00:34:23.085 --> 00:34:27.725
think about someone even a little bit and that just lacked the whole relationship

00:34:27.725 --> 00:34:30.405
talk about and I don't know if we can stay in generalities here,

00:34:30.525 --> 00:34:35.605
but let's say that this person reaches out to somebody that doesn't really have

00:34:35.605 --> 00:34:37.825
a deserved place in the relationship.

00:34:38.045 --> 00:34:40.905
They've got connection with somebody outside of the relationship that it's like,

00:34:40.925 --> 00:34:42.025
it isn't very productive.

00:34:42.445 --> 00:34:46.445
And so you've said, Hey, tell me about that. Trying to be genuinely curious.

00:34:46.865 --> 00:34:52.285
And then what would their answer typically be of why they needed to have conversations

00:34:52.285 --> 00:34:56.105
with the person that didn't really deserve a place in the relationship?

00:34:56.505 --> 00:35:00.505
I feel like we can go, we can, we can make that a little bit more clear.

00:35:00.605 --> 00:35:01.345
Yeah. Okay. Talk about that.

00:35:01.978 --> 00:35:03.758
Because I think this is pretty significant. It would be, it was,

00:35:03.858 --> 00:35:06.838
the person I was dating had a relationship with someone that they should not

00:35:06.838 --> 00:35:07.838
have had a relationship with.

00:35:08.038 --> 00:35:10.078
In your opinion. In my opinion. And I would acknowledge.

00:35:10.318 --> 00:35:11.238
And everyone I've spoken to

00:35:11.238 --> 00:35:14.258
agrees as well that it was kind of an inappropriate relationship to have.

00:35:14.638 --> 00:35:18.158
And then if I would bring it up with curiosity, just tell me about that.

00:35:18.298 --> 00:35:20.178
Tell me like, what is the need there?

00:35:20.338 --> 00:35:23.618
What are the intentions there? Anything like that. It would get spun to,

00:35:23.858 --> 00:35:27.318
I'm crazy for thinking that that would be anything different.

00:35:27.318 --> 00:35:32.418
And I'm in the wrong for trying to make it anything different than what it is.

00:35:32.638 --> 00:35:36.938
And that even though the topics of conversation were very inappropriate,

00:35:36.938 --> 00:35:39.758
that I must be reading it wrong.

00:35:40.158 --> 00:35:45.258
Even though I'd seen it word for word what was being said. And it was very inappropriate.

00:35:45.878 --> 00:35:51.098
And then I was made to be like, how dare you think that, basically.

00:35:51.338 --> 00:35:53.098
So then they would finally, this person would finally then say,

00:35:53.178 --> 00:35:55.178
okay, fine, I won't talk to that person again.

00:35:55.338 --> 00:35:58.058
But at that point... but then they just did they just hit

00:35:58.058 --> 00:36:01.138
it yeah they hit it and then what did it feel like even when they said okay fine it

00:36:01.138 --> 00:36:04.238
wasn't a genuine man i'm gonna really look introspective straight

00:36:04.238 --> 00:36:07.238
up i do not understand where you're coming from or why you would possibly think that

00:36:07.238 --> 00:36:10.518
but i guess i have to do this so what would you do moving

00:36:10.518 --> 00:36:15.598
forward because in the moment should that be a bigger i think so i know we're

00:36:15.598 --> 00:36:19.698
being very vague with that but it's basically if trust and a boundary are both

00:36:19.698 --> 00:36:22.738
broken and somebody has proved to you over and over and over again that they

00:36:22.738 --> 00:36:27.398
cannot hold or respect your boundaries or have given you any reason to trust them,

00:36:27.618 --> 00:36:30.698
I think you have every right to walk away. Yeah, it's hard.

00:36:30.898 --> 00:36:33.898
It's very hard, but it's like at this point, if I were in that situation again.

00:36:34.674 --> 00:36:38.394
I would not give more chances to that because you've already shown me exactly who you are.

00:36:38.634 --> 00:36:41.314
And that's one thing I'm trying to learn is that when somebody shows you who

00:36:41.314 --> 00:36:44.994
they are, you actually, it's almost on you to believe that because they've given

00:36:44.994 --> 00:36:47.014
you the warning, they're showing you exactly who they are.

00:36:47.034 --> 00:36:50.834
And I'm learning to toe the line of seeing the best in people and trying to

00:36:50.834 --> 00:36:55.074
give grace and give second chances, but also just seeing it for what it is.

00:36:55.174 --> 00:36:59.894
That I think is a really difficult thing to balance and to try to not lose yourself.

00:37:00.094 --> 00:37:02.734
And again, being kind, being generous, trying to give grace,

00:37:03.134 --> 00:37:06.494
but then also just allowing yourself to be walked all over and then showing

00:37:06.494 --> 00:37:08.154
someone that they can walk all over.

00:37:08.274 --> 00:37:10.734
Cause I think that's another thing in this relationship that I learned is that

00:37:10.734 --> 00:37:14.614
I, every time I then heard the mouth noises and then I said,

00:37:14.754 --> 00:37:15.814
okay, you're right. I forgive you.

00:37:16.154 --> 00:37:19.714
I was basically saying, and if you just say the right noises,

00:37:19.714 --> 00:37:20.854
I will forgive you every time.

00:37:20.894 --> 00:37:24.734
So you can do whatever you want, but as long as you say the right words, I will stay.

00:37:25.414 --> 00:37:28.994
And I basically handed that to this person.

00:37:29.214 --> 00:37:32.134
And then, so then it's like, who was, I didn't think that anything would change.

00:37:32.334 --> 00:37:36.534
That's deep and mature and also it stinks as well. Yeah.

00:37:36.754 --> 00:37:40.174
Because you're training the relationship how it will operate by what you tolerate.

00:37:40.374 --> 00:37:42.734
I remember a friend of mine who said, I just can't keep doing this.

00:37:42.854 --> 00:37:46.334
And his therapist said, oh, you can, you have been. And you are, and you're going to.

00:37:46.474 --> 00:37:47.994
And that's the thing that I think is hard, where it's like, no,

00:37:48.054 --> 00:37:49.234
it actually comes down to you.

00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:54.102
Making the hard choice and leaving. And that's another thing that we could go

00:37:54.102 --> 00:37:59.142
into so many things about because in this relationship that we are talking about, I did leave.

00:37:59.322 --> 00:38:02.662
That was after a long time and I should have left way before I did,

00:38:02.782 --> 00:38:06.782
but I eventually somehow got the courage to leave.

00:38:06.842 --> 00:38:10.782
And it's crazy because it's like, oh, that was like, I had the power to do that the whole time.

00:38:11.322 --> 00:38:13.662
And that's an interesting thing to then sit back and be like,

00:38:13.722 --> 00:38:17.262
wow, I could have done that. Then the boundary stuff, I'll move it into the hypothetical.

00:38:17.502 --> 00:38:21.102
So let's say that hypothetically there's a couple and the

00:38:21.102 --> 00:38:24.022
guy is communicating to somebody that

00:38:24.022 --> 00:38:26.782
he works with and they're being super flirty and this person is quite

00:38:26.782 --> 00:38:31.202
a bit older it can seem to get out of hand and then the girlfriend finds the

00:38:31.202 --> 00:38:35.182
text so then that guy is saying you're wrong and you're crazy you don't understand

00:38:35.182 --> 00:38:39.082
and then finally it's the you're wrong and you're crazy didn't get the girlfriend

00:38:39.082 --> 00:38:42.722
to stop yeah that's what i think is really interesting because if the girlfriend

00:38:42.722 --> 00:38:44.042
would have bit on any those,

00:38:44.382 --> 00:38:47.602
then he just still keeps doing it anyway with impunity.

00:38:47.862 --> 00:38:51.722
Right, but that relationship would have progressed. Yeah, and so then after

00:38:51.722 --> 00:38:54.922
the girlfriend stayed grounded and present, then finally he's like,

00:38:55.022 --> 00:38:56.202
okay, fine, I won't do it anymore.

00:38:56.362 --> 00:39:01.682
But still, it was after he tried to say, you're wrong and you're crazy and then fine, I won't do it.

00:39:02.122 --> 00:39:06.562
So from my chair, it's interesting because if the girlfriend bites at any of

00:39:06.562 --> 00:39:08.942
those earlier, it trains the relationship even more.

00:39:08.962 --> 00:39:12.282
But what it also trained the relationship with was stick with it long enough

00:39:12.282 --> 00:39:14.022
and he'll find the right thing to say.

00:39:14.362 --> 00:39:17.182
Yeah. It's really interesting. It's almost like when you take a little kid to

00:39:17.182 --> 00:39:20.862
the store and they want the toy and then you're like, no, you can't have it. And then they try.

00:39:20.962 --> 00:39:23.742
Just this one time, the parent says no. They'll cycle through enough things

00:39:23.742 --> 00:39:25.242
until it finally lands. Yeah.

00:39:25.622 --> 00:39:29.102
I'll save up for it. I'll pay for it myself. Then they lose their mind and get

00:39:29.102 --> 00:39:32.442
angry about it. Then finally the parent's like, okay, just this one time.

00:39:33.102 --> 00:39:36.982
But all the kids learn. I just had to cycle through a few more things and then I found it.

00:39:37.042 --> 00:39:39.082
That's what I think is really interesting. And then it's like that's basically

00:39:39.082 --> 00:39:41.882
carried through to a relationship, a grown relationship.

00:39:42.182 --> 00:39:45.002
And then would you ever hear the, well just tell me what I need to do.

00:39:46.044 --> 00:39:48.964
That's another one that i think is not a healthy thing because

00:39:48.964 --> 00:39:51.824
basically that person's saying no just tell me what you need

00:39:51.824 --> 00:39:54.544
me to do to make you feel better even though i'm

00:39:54.544 --> 00:39:57.364
doing it because i care or want you to feel seen or heard or

00:39:57.364 --> 00:40:00.224
i want this relationship to be better just how do i get out of this discomfort

00:40:00.224 --> 00:40:04.284
in this moment yeah yeah but it can even sound i'll see couples do that and

00:40:04.284 --> 00:40:08.424
they think that that's a healthy conversation of just tell me what you need

00:40:08.424 --> 00:40:13.004
me to do there's usually some frustration behind it oh yeah like it yes no i

00:40:13.004 --> 00:40:15.584
like that you said that because there There is a version... There's a genuine way to do that.

00:40:15.724 --> 00:40:17.924
Yeah, there is. How can I help you? How can I show up for you?

00:40:18.044 --> 00:40:23.304
Yeah, because I honestly am not sure how, but then it's funny because if the person genuinely,

00:40:23.684 --> 00:40:27.484
they would have to be able to acknowledge that that behavior they're doing isn't

00:40:27.484 --> 00:40:31.724
helpful for the relationship, but they would have to also admit the fact that

00:40:31.724 --> 00:40:34.344
they're going to take a look introspectively of why they do it.

00:40:35.188 --> 00:40:38.108
Because then now maybe it makes more sense of what would

00:40:38.108 --> 00:40:40.888
you need right now i need to know what you're doing to work are you

00:40:40.888 --> 00:40:44.048
going to therapy or right what books are you reading what podcast you're listening

00:40:44.048 --> 00:40:48.708
to are you gonna find some examples no i i mean i have a list of lots of examples

00:40:48.708 --> 00:40:53.368
i could say but i feel like since we've kind of we've briefly touched on this

00:40:53.368 --> 00:40:58.728
relationship i was in but i did go through and did a here's everything i've learned from it,

00:40:59.308 --> 00:41:02.988
so if we can maybe just rapid fire through this okay i would really like today

00:41:02.988 --> 00:41:09.148
but i basically framed this as everything I've learned being single again in my late 20s. Okay.

00:41:09.568 --> 00:41:13.508
Because I'm practically 40 years old at this point. We can just rapid fire.

00:41:13.688 --> 00:41:15.988
We could probably talk about each one of these for an hour each.

00:41:16.088 --> 00:41:17.228
So we're just going to rapid fire. Okay.

00:41:17.388 --> 00:41:20.888
My first one, feel it. When the uncomfortable feelings arise,

00:41:20.888 --> 00:41:23.188
your natural instinct will be to distract, hide, or run.

00:41:23.668 --> 00:41:28.828
Do not. You have to feel it. The actual healing is going to come from feeling those feelings.

00:41:29.028 --> 00:41:32.648
And I know people don't really get this one because then it's,

00:41:32.728 --> 00:41:35.468
well, if I'm sitting with it and feeling it, then what do i do and do

00:41:35.468 --> 00:41:39.208
you have any thoughts on that i think you you

00:41:39.208 --> 00:41:41.968
continue to do little things but you allow the thoughts to still be

00:41:41.968 --> 00:41:45.328
there and you don't try to completely distract so for me it'd be like i went

00:41:45.328 --> 00:41:48.388
on a lot of walks you know where it's like i'm still thinking i'm allowing the

00:41:48.388 --> 00:41:52.968
feelings to be there i'm not fully distracting because there's definitely a

00:41:52.968 --> 00:41:56.148
way to do that where then you're watching shows and you're playing games and

00:41:56.148 --> 00:41:58.648
you're doing things that are great and they're beneficial in those moments and

00:41:58.648 --> 00:42:01.228
they are the little things but you also need to feel things.

00:42:02.015 --> 00:42:04.815
Too. So it's like, I think you're walking, you're meditating,

00:42:04.815 --> 00:42:05.995
you're sitting in a sauna.

00:42:06.275 --> 00:42:09.235
You're like doing these things that force you or you're talking about it even,

00:42:09.435 --> 00:42:13.255
but you're doing these things that you actually have to feel the uncomfortable feelings.

00:42:13.455 --> 00:42:17.855
And that can be anything from betrayal deep as that, or just bummed that a relationship

00:42:17.855 --> 00:42:20.675
didn't work out or sad or being so mad at that person.

00:42:20.775 --> 00:42:23.995
It's letting those feelings just pass through. And you've talked a lot too about

00:42:23.995 --> 00:42:28.295
finding where they are in your body and noticing the feelings and allowing them

00:42:28.295 --> 00:42:30.355
to be there and not trying to just shove them down.

00:42:30.495 --> 00:42:33.175
That's the key. I love that you're saying that it makes sense when somebody

00:42:33.175 --> 00:42:35.895
says, I don't think that's going to work or I don't even know what to do.

00:42:35.895 --> 00:42:37.675
It's because we don't do that.

00:42:37.955 --> 00:42:41.955
And it isn't. And you nailed it where to get rid of the emotion or feeling is

00:42:41.955 --> 00:42:44.235
to then either turn to unhealthy coping mechanism. Yeah.

00:42:44.795 --> 00:42:48.455
There's a balance there. You can't go too far to just numbing and distracting

00:42:48.455 --> 00:42:52.975
because this is another side note that has been very helpful for me in my whole life.

00:42:53.115 --> 00:42:59.255
But I think it's probably a thing you've told me, but you cannot selectively numb feelings.

00:42:59.575 --> 00:43:02.555
And so if you're numbing the bad, you are numbing the good. Yeah.

00:43:02.815 --> 00:43:06.235
And there's no... you can't just pick. I don't feel like feeling that.

00:43:06.575 --> 00:43:09.895
You're now dropping everything down to a lower level.

00:43:10.015 --> 00:43:13.115
And sometimes people will accept that fact of because if I'm going to just watch

00:43:13.115 --> 00:43:16.215
shows instead of wanting to run into traffic, I'll go with that.

00:43:16.435 --> 00:43:20.675
Yeah. That one's okay. But then at some point then let's try to break down what

00:43:20.675 --> 00:43:22.835
are all the feelings because it's not usually just one.

00:43:23.135 --> 00:43:25.795
Because I think somebody, right, you can be a little bit relieved that you figured

00:43:25.795 --> 00:43:31.675
this out, but also sad and angry and frustrated and hopeless and fearful. Yeah.

00:43:32.335 --> 00:43:35.495
And then you can even throw in a little bit of there's maybe some excitement there for,

00:43:36.015 --> 00:43:38.915
potential of your future you know what i mean like there's like it can be such

00:43:38.915 --> 00:43:42.115
a complicated mix of feelings especially if we're talking specifically about

00:43:42.115 --> 00:43:45.635
breakups that's one of the most complex times to

00:43:45.635 --> 00:43:48.415
feel and there's just so much there where we

00:43:48.415 --> 00:43:51.435
saw your maturity even more is that

00:43:51.435 --> 00:43:54.375
you were you did seem to be doing a lot better

00:43:54.375 --> 00:43:57.335
as you process things but you were also feeling all the other emotions

00:43:57.335 --> 00:43:59.975
because i thought about we didn't talk about this but even when

00:43:59.975 --> 00:44:03.075
you just said and there can even be some excitement is that I know that if

00:44:03.075 --> 00:44:06.915
you're telling that to somebody like a friend then they might think cool then

00:44:06.915 --> 00:44:11.335
you're good right you know so sometimes I think people don't even want to express

00:44:11.335 --> 00:44:14.695
that I mean I'm a little bit relieved because then the other person's like okay

00:44:14.695 --> 00:44:17.535
I don't have to check in anymore we're good and it's like no you can feel okay

00:44:17.535 --> 00:44:20.335
in that moment and then still have many days of,

00:44:21.055 --> 00:44:24.095
it sucks. Okay, on this note before you have to say, I don't know if you remember,

00:44:24.295 --> 00:44:27.415
I sent in our family group chat one day, I just sent this quote that I heard,

00:44:27.595 --> 00:44:30.855
the answers you seek are in the silence that you are avoiding.

00:44:31.055 --> 00:44:33.635
Sometimes the most powerful thoughts are the fleeting ones that you may never

00:44:33.635 --> 00:44:35.095
hear if you're constantly being busy.

00:44:35.915 --> 00:44:39.075
That was so deep. I know, I love that your mom said, I feel personally in fact.

00:44:39.655 --> 00:44:42.915
But it is, it's that silence and it can be so scary to be in that silence.

00:44:43.035 --> 00:44:46.015
But that again is where I think feeling happens and

00:44:46.015 --> 00:44:48.875
then that's what leads to actually healing and working through things and

00:44:48.875 --> 00:44:51.755
processing emotions that's how we're built to process our

00:44:51.755 --> 00:44:54.955
emotions but we're in such a time of distract and

00:44:54.955 --> 00:44:58.195
shove down and don't feel it so it's tricky okay

00:44:58.195 --> 00:45:01.755
what else you got that was a good one okay then i have which this i've actually

00:45:01.755 --> 00:45:05.695
changed my mind on a little bit but initially i said trust is earned not given

00:45:05.695 --> 00:45:09.335
blindly and i don't know if i still would stand by that trust has to be earned

00:45:09.335 --> 00:45:12.615
but i think that if somebody proves to you that they are not trustworthy you

00:45:12.615 --> 00:45:16.215
no longer owe them your blind trust is where i would shift that if somebody.

00:45:17.915 --> 00:45:20.795
Repeatedly is untrustworthy they have no

00:45:20.795 --> 00:45:24.255
right to then turn around and get mad at you for not trusting them i guess is

00:45:24.255 --> 00:45:28.455
my is my shift on that but i do think you should give people chances and you

00:45:28.455 --> 00:45:32.735
should be open to trusting people even when it's new but if they've proved to

00:45:32.735 --> 00:45:38.575
you yeah you cannot trust them there because i in my specific situation it's like then i would be,

00:45:39.155 --> 00:45:41.235
something this person would do something untrustworthy.

00:45:42.003 --> 00:45:45.663
And then I would lose some trust and then I would bring up that,

00:45:45.763 --> 00:45:49.483
hey, I maybe don't feel like I super trust you and then I would somehow get

00:45:49.483 --> 00:45:52.503
yelled at for not trusting the untrustworthy person.

00:45:52.643 --> 00:45:55.963
I have such a hot take on this and I got to see if I can find this one quote.

00:45:56.423 --> 00:45:59.983
It's from a podcast that I listened to called Invisibilia.

00:46:00.083 --> 00:46:05.103
They had this author on and he had a book about trust. He said that you don't

00:46:05.103 --> 00:46:08.223
really know a person and what that means is that if somebody betrays you,

00:46:08.363 --> 00:46:09.683
then it's not such a shock.

00:46:09.803 --> 00:46:12.863
It doesn't surprise them that the person does a thing they didn't think that

00:46:12.863 --> 00:46:13.803
that person was going to do.

00:46:13.963 --> 00:46:17.423
When somebody betrays our trust, what happens is we have an idea of who they

00:46:17.423 --> 00:46:20.203
are and they behave in a way that runs against the idea.

00:46:20.443 --> 00:46:23.343
We say to them, I thought that you were different. I thought that you weren't

00:46:23.343 --> 00:46:26.223
like that. How could you do that to me when I had this idea of you?

00:46:26.503 --> 00:46:30.443
And this is a controversial take, but he says it's a tyrannical way to behave.

00:46:30.723 --> 00:46:33.943
I have this idea of you. You have to conform to it or our friendship is over.

00:46:34.123 --> 00:46:36.123
So basically he's saying we're stuck in a binary.

00:46:36.323 --> 00:46:39.163
We either totally trust somebody or they betray us and then we're done with them.

00:46:39.543 --> 00:46:42.983
But this other way of thinking, and he calls it mistrust with a capital M,

00:46:43.343 --> 00:46:44.423
gives you a third option.

00:46:44.563 --> 00:46:47.843
And it's hard to get your head around. It's basically saying trust people less

00:46:47.843 --> 00:46:51.003
and it's a more liberating world, but have more respect for the fact that you

00:46:51.003 --> 00:46:53.883
can't know them and that their behavior might sometimes betray or let you down.

00:46:54.303 --> 00:46:59.003
But where I've landed on this one is, I'm owning the fact that in a relationship.

00:46:59.684 --> 00:47:04.064
We don't know what we don't know about the other person. We are projecting how

00:47:04.064 --> 00:47:05.364
we think they'll show up in a relationship.

00:47:05.504 --> 00:47:08.464
But there are some things that why I don't want to call them universal truths,

00:47:08.844 --> 00:47:11.184
but that are pretty crummy to do.

00:47:11.504 --> 00:47:15.784
And so then when those things do happen over time, they are going to erode trust.

00:47:16.124 --> 00:47:21.024
And so when I get a couple in here, we'll say the guy has been the one who betrayed the wife.

00:47:21.544 --> 00:47:24.804
It's almost inevitable where he'll say at some point she just needs to trust

00:47:24.804 --> 00:47:26.024
me. And I say, oh, no, no, no.

00:47:26.544 --> 00:47:29.504
Right now we have to accept the fact that she may never trust you again.

00:47:29.684 --> 00:47:35.104
Because what that acceptance means now everything's on the table as far as ways to rebuild trust.

00:47:35.364 --> 00:47:38.884
So I'm with you on this. I think we naturally are going to trust our partner.

00:47:39.104 --> 00:47:42.004
You're saying in a very black and white way that it has to be all or nothing.

00:47:42.844 --> 00:47:46.344
And I think that that's just not how trust actually works. And I don't think

00:47:46.344 --> 00:47:47.484
that's necessarily a bad thing.

00:47:47.664 --> 00:47:50.924
Yeah, it's going to evolve. But then I would imagine there are some certain

00:47:50.924 --> 00:47:53.224
things, though, that there has to be an acceptance.

00:47:53.284 --> 00:47:55.024
It's like you can always have a boundary set, though, of like,

00:47:55.104 --> 00:47:59.544
okay, if this thing happens, that is going to affect the trust no matter what.

00:47:59.684 --> 00:48:03.124
Yeah. But short of that, I do understand the longer that you're with somebody

00:48:03.124 --> 00:48:06.744
over time, they're not being the person you thought they would be,

00:48:06.944 --> 00:48:10.284
which actually makes sense. Yeah. And that is interesting to view it that way.

00:48:10.504 --> 00:48:12.524
But then, yeah, again, I think there are certain things where it's like,

00:48:12.664 --> 00:48:15.284
okay, but you've now lied to me a hundred times.

00:48:15.684 --> 00:48:18.464
So why would I trust anything that you're saying? You know what I mean?

00:48:18.524 --> 00:48:20.504
So it's like, there is that line for sure.

00:48:20.684 --> 00:48:24.644
And when a person, let's say, who's been the betrayer embraces that,

00:48:24.864 --> 00:48:28.484
then I've seen real growth occur because then they are accepting the fact that

00:48:28.484 --> 00:48:35.244
i'm i can earn this back by being more honest and open because usually the person's

00:48:35.244 --> 00:48:39.664
afraid to be honest because they assume that that person will take it a certain

00:48:39.664 --> 00:48:42.224
way so they're not even set back to that managing emotion so i didn't want to

00:48:42.224 --> 00:48:43.544
tell her because i didn't want her to get mad at me.

00:48:44.299 --> 00:48:47.519
Tell her and allow her to have her own emotions or feelings and

00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.499
it might be she is mad but it might not yeah yeah

00:48:50.499 --> 00:48:53.239
okay rapid fire okay yeah i didn't rapid

00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:56.579
fire that one very well i threw in my this is kind of what we were talking about

00:48:56.579 --> 00:49:01.179
but no feeling is ever final one of my favorite quotes as someone who has dealt

00:49:01.179 --> 00:49:05.319
with a lot of anxiety in her life that has been a really big thing for me that

00:49:05.319 --> 00:49:11.039
no feeling is ever final it's good or bad but that as humans like we are constantly just,

00:49:11.759 --> 00:49:14.659
feeling different things and you'll notice that every feeling you've

00:49:14.659 --> 00:49:17.519
ever had has come and gone in one way or another and so

00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:20.239
it's like I think that's a really big thing to remember in moments where

00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:23.439
things are bad or dark or scary that

00:49:23.439 --> 00:49:27.339
it's like hey no this feeling is temporary don't know how long it'll last but

00:49:27.339 --> 00:49:30.079
it's going to go away at some point and it might come back like you kind of

00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:35.499
have to have that acceptance that it could come back again but it's not going

00:49:35.499 --> 00:49:40.359
to stay here at 100% forever and to just lean into that and it goes both ways.

00:49:40.379 --> 00:49:43.399
There's a level of that too with the positive feelings and being happy and like

00:49:43.399 --> 00:49:47.399
being content that that will only last for so long and then that's another like,

00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:50.519
so soak it up. Well, you know what I mean? Like there's so many ways you can spin that.

00:49:51.393 --> 00:49:55.573
I just i think that's really deep and i think it's it's important and then i

00:49:55.573 --> 00:49:59.173
think it goes with you always tell me to just bring my emotions with me or like

00:49:59.173 --> 00:50:01.433
my anxiety you'll tell me to bring it with me and i think that that's a piece

00:50:01.433 --> 00:50:03.273
of it where it's like hey you don't need to let these feelings,

00:50:03.813 --> 00:50:06.953
stop you from living your life and doing the things that you need to do or continuing

00:50:06.953 --> 00:50:10.173
to heal or continuing to grow but just know that they might be there when you

00:50:10.173 --> 00:50:13.493
don't want them to be there and that's okay you can still continue on have i

00:50:13.493 --> 00:50:16.833
sold you on the concept of impermanence yet do you know what that means okay

00:50:16.833 --> 00:50:20.373
i think you're gonna like this one this is from a recent podcasts and I've been obsessed with it.

00:50:20.573 --> 00:50:23.993
Impermanence is the recognition that everything, literally everything is constantly changing.

00:50:24.533 --> 00:50:27.113
Nothing's fixed. Nothing's permanent. Not our bodies, not our thoughts,

00:50:27.213 --> 00:50:30.273
not our emotions, not our relationships, not our beliefs, not our understanding of truth.

00:50:30.553 --> 00:50:34.213
It comes from the Buddhist world. And for some people, it sounds terrifying.

00:50:34.453 --> 00:50:36.033
Some people think it sounds like kind of nihilistic.

00:50:36.313 --> 00:50:39.793
I was going to say it and it's nihilist. Right? Because if nothing's permanent, what do we count on?

00:50:39.893 --> 00:50:43.613
But the paradox is when you accept impermanence, then it becomes healing because

00:50:43.613 --> 00:50:46.833
so much suffering is from trying to make things permanent that can't be.

00:50:46.933 --> 00:50:50.593
So, we cling to our beliefs, we cling to that I'm going to feel this way forever,

00:50:50.693 --> 00:50:53.673
we hold on to versions of ourselves that no longer serve us.

00:50:54.353 --> 00:50:57.693
Exactly, it's the default. So, we stay in these rigid positions and we're afraid

00:50:57.693 --> 00:51:00.813
that if we change our mind, then that means that we did something wrong and

00:51:00.813 --> 00:51:02.513
it being wrong feels like death. Exactly.

00:51:02.893 --> 00:51:06.253
So, impermanence teaches us that the problem isn't change because change is inevitable.

00:51:06.353 --> 00:51:09.513
The problem is our resistance to it, our desperate clinging to certainty in

00:51:09.513 --> 00:51:12.533
an uncertain world or the need to be right instead of curious,

00:51:12.813 --> 00:51:18.433
when you embrace impermanence, then I have noticed that even if I'm having a

00:51:18.433 --> 00:51:21.753
difficult conversation with somebody, I'm aware that it's funny,

00:51:21.873 --> 00:51:23.573
my brain goes to this too shall pass.

00:51:23.773 --> 00:51:27.713
And so then it allows you to not make it as big of a, this is,

00:51:27.893 --> 00:51:31.393
and this is it, this conversation doesn't have to change everything.

00:51:31.653 --> 00:51:35.133
Because you won't remember a lot of it by later that night or even the next day.

00:51:35.233 --> 00:51:39.973
And so it allows you to stay more in the conversation out of your own head and

00:51:39.973 --> 00:51:44.553
then more genuinely curious about what's going on so that's a good one huh yeah

00:51:44.553 --> 00:51:46.273
i will sell you on impermanence okay,

00:51:47.073 --> 00:51:51.473
you shouldn't be going to sleep sad every night or crying in a healthy relationship every night.

00:51:52.863 --> 00:51:57.763
Moving on, begging for someone to care, not normal in a healthy relationship. That one, Mackie. Yeah.

00:51:58.063 --> 00:52:01.403
We'll put note to self. We'll do that one in a whole other episode sometimes

00:52:01.403 --> 00:52:06.623
because there should never be a time that you literally have to beg someone to just care. Yeah.

00:52:06.983 --> 00:52:10.083
That's crazy. It is. And until you know yourself well enough,

00:52:10.203 --> 00:52:13.683
which can also sound cliched, because then I want to be so curious as to why

00:52:13.683 --> 00:52:16.723
the person I'm in the relationship doesn't seem to care about this thing.

00:52:17.063 --> 00:52:20.443
Like I want to, I get genuinely curious, co-regulation that's

00:52:20.443 --> 00:52:23.423
another one i'll put a pin in we because that is the mouth sounds yeah

00:52:23.423 --> 00:52:26.183
but i don't know if we talked about this i'm getting so nerdy into it

00:52:26.183 --> 00:52:28.803
but if you think of baby crying they don't know how to

00:52:28.803 --> 00:52:32.123
calm themselves mom holds a baby and says essentially

00:52:32.123 --> 00:52:35.583
hey let me let you borrow my nervous system and

00:52:35.583 --> 00:52:38.443
we can co-regulate because when you have that version of

00:52:38.443 --> 00:52:41.663
it that then if you're going to the person going about

00:52:41.663 --> 00:52:44.823
you why don't you care and then they're all of a sudden they're like i you

00:52:44.823 --> 00:52:47.563
know they're doing that whole thing that then once i'm you

00:52:47.563 --> 00:52:52.063
know what i deserve to be cared for about and i care about myself so i want

00:52:52.063 --> 00:52:56.023
to know why don't you person i'm in a relationship care about these things right

00:52:56.023 --> 00:53:00.423
so i'm also lending my nervous position to like show up that way yeah okay another

00:53:00.423 --> 00:53:04.323
one there's no correct timeline of feeling i think that's big and this goes

00:53:04.323 --> 00:53:06.283
to what you talk about all the time but that,

00:53:06.803 --> 00:53:10.523
this is everybody's first time doing this and it's like there is no i think

00:53:10.523 --> 00:53:14.063
we so just pretend or get caught up in the fact that there has to be some blueprint

00:53:14.063 --> 00:53:15.563
of life and that somebody.

00:53:16.501 --> 00:53:19.381
Has decided this is exactly how everything has to go and this

00:53:19.381 --> 00:53:22.861
is how long you're allowed to feel this and this is how you know there's we like

00:53:22.861 --> 00:53:25.661
assume that for some reason and it's like no nobody has done this

00:53:25.661 --> 00:53:28.421
before nobody literally nobody has done this and nobody has

00:53:28.421 --> 00:53:32.161
been you in that exact position like you talk about all the time nobody can

00:53:32.161 --> 00:53:34.961
put a timeline on how you're feeling things

00:53:34.961 --> 00:53:38.061
and obviously there's a way to like you don't want to sit and ruminate on something

00:53:38.061 --> 00:53:41.321
forever and you can argue those things but there is

00:53:41.321 --> 00:53:44.261
no it's not like okay you get two weeks

00:53:44.261 --> 00:53:46.921
to feel that and then you're you gotta snap out of it if i can

00:53:46.921 --> 00:53:50.061
be so bold in this kind of relationship that went

00:53:50.061 --> 00:53:53.041
pretty quick what you were dealing with is wild it

00:53:53.041 --> 00:53:55.861
was big if there's a tragedy in your life yeah there is

00:53:55.861 --> 00:54:00.221
no timeline nobody can say hey you got four hours to feel this and then we're

00:54:00.221 --> 00:54:05.301
moving on and you heard that that person's friend had dealt with something similar

00:54:05.301 --> 00:54:09.681
a while ago and they did it this way so therefore i had to do it that way that's

00:54:09.681 --> 00:54:13.321
crazy we're all so different and we're all doing this for the first time, where the way that you,

00:54:13.581 --> 00:54:18.581
we could have the same tragedy happen and you're going to feel it so different

00:54:18.581 --> 00:54:19.361
than I'm going to feel it.

00:54:19.621 --> 00:54:22.321
And your timeline is going to be so different than my timeline.

00:54:22.461 --> 00:54:27.161
And it's like, that's not, that doesn't mean someone's doing it wrong and someone's doing it right.

00:54:27.401 --> 00:54:31.001
And so I think that just, I mean, this, again, this was specifically coming

00:54:31.001 --> 00:54:33.801
from healing from a breakup, but I think it goes to every aspect of life,

00:54:33.801 --> 00:54:35.921
but it's like, there is no correct timeline.

00:54:35.921 --> 00:54:38.961
And that extends to, I think then everything, like

00:54:38.961 --> 00:54:41.741
I get so caught up in the I'm 26 and I'm single I'm

00:54:41.741 --> 00:54:44.601
behind and like my timeline is wrong right it's like no it's not

00:54:44.601 --> 00:54:47.221
who decided that no and so it's just

00:54:47.221 --> 00:54:50.801
that extends to every aspect of life that there is no correct

00:54:50.801 --> 00:54:54.561
timeline so I want to look directly into the camera and say that if you are

00:54:54.561 --> 00:54:59.661
someone who finds yourself often telling your partner that they are doing it

00:54:59.661 --> 00:55:03.461
wrong whatever they're doing and they're feeling and the way they're doing it

00:55:03.461 --> 00:55:07.861
yeah then knock it off respectfully how did you get the power to decide that

00:55:07.861 --> 00:55:08.981
that person's doing it wrong?

00:55:09.021 --> 00:55:11.881
So, my favorite line then would be to like this person that we're talking about.

00:55:12.041 --> 00:55:17.741
So, when he was a 26-year-old girl at work in an esthetician school where somebody

00:55:17.741 --> 00:55:19.181
there went through a tragedy.

00:55:20.660 --> 00:55:23.540
He's had that experience yeah i'm willing to listen

00:55:23.540 --> 00:55:26.780
to how he handled it but until you are in that exact position

00:55:26.780 --> 00:55:29.760
i don't want to hear it no so other than that then actually

00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:33.100
the greatest thing that he could have done was to make space for

00:55:33.100 --> 00:55:36.000
your emotions it's that simple it's i mean it really

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.800
it really can't be man that sounds so difficult i can't

00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:41.500
even imagine how can i show up for you right now that's it

00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:44.700
that's all it has to be yeah so it shows you how uncomfortable

00:55:44.700 --> 00:55:47.980
it made him yeah and then it goes right to the the most

00:55:47.980 --> 00:55:51.280
one of the most emotionally immature things i think one can express

00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:54.400
is that well you're having a different experience than

00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:57.100
i am or that i think you should so therefore you must

00:55:57.100 --> 00:56:00.120
think you're right and i'm wrong so now i have to attack you

00:56:00.120 --> 00:56:03.120
and put you in a one down position and me in a one up so i

00:56:03.120 --> 00:56:06.640
feel better not cool no it's

00:56:06.640 --> 00:56:10.140
so crazy yeah um backing that though the

00:56:10.140 --> 00:56:12.880
fact that healing is not usually linear yeah and that's

00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:15.740
a normal thing you could have you could think you're doing so well you could be months

00:56:15.740 --> 00:56:18.460
out of a breakup or something going on and then have a day that all

00:56:18.460 --> 00:56:21.520
of a sudden it just kind of hits you like a truck and you're like feeling all

00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:23.900
the emotions again and that doesn't mean you took a step back that doesn't mean

00:56:23.900 --> 00:56:26.940
it's like it's you're just processing things there's so many thoughts that there

00:56:26.940 --> 00:56:30.320
because sometimes i even think that since we don't allow our big emotions to

00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:35.260
hang out much because we either were never really taught how to do them or we

00:56:35.260 --> 00:56:37.820
think we're doing them wrong that every now and again your emotions are just

00:56:37.820 --> 00:56:40.660
going to do a quick sound check and be like hey is this thing on like.

00:56:41.608 --> 00:56:44.508
Feeling all these emotions and it's like let's have a day and

00:56:44.508 --> 00:56:47.488
guess what not final not permanent it's just it's

00:56:47.488 --> 00:56:50.328
just there um then he said being alone is

00:56:50.328 --> 00:56:53.468
better than settling for less than you deserve and that

00:56:53.468 --> 00:56:56.888
leaving can actually be a very brave decision and

00:56:56.888 --> 00:56:59.948
it doesn't make you a bad guy and it doesn't mean you like gave

00:56:59.948 --> 00:57:02.648
up on something it's like no if you you know like you know if

00:57:02.648 --> 00:57:05.748
it's time for you to leave and there's nothing wrong with and maybe

00:57:05.748 --> 00:57:08.608
i'll add too that um if somebody does a lot of couples therapy with people

00:57:08.608 --> 00:57:11.448
that there's an emotionally immature partner or a narcissistic partner

00:57:11.448 --> 00:57:14.228
in the relationship that leaving doesn't even have to

00:57:14.228 --> 00:57:17.008
be something that happens immediately that it's it can be like you

00:57:17.008 --> 00:57:19.828
say healing's not healing's not linear so

00:57:19.828 --> 00:57:23.628
somebody can start putting the pieces together and then they'll probably even

00:57:23.628 --> 00:57:26.628
try to have the conversations and then they may not go well and they'll think

00:57:26.628 --> 00:57:28.648
what's wrong with me and they'll think i'm going to leave and they're going

00:57:28.648 --> 00:57:32.608
to get like i can do this and they're not and it's just this roller coaster

00:57:32.608 --> 00:57:36.408
yeah well the actual like leaving process for me probably was a five month thing

00:57:36.408 --> 00:57:39.688
yeah like from the first conversation of,

00:57:40.268 --> 00:57:44.188
if things do not change, I can't do this. Yeah. To the actual leaving. Yeah.

00:57:44.448 --> 00:57:47.408
Probably five months. Yeah. So definitely not just like.

00:57:48.992 --> 00:57:51.792
Um i have a lot more but i'll leave i'll end on just this

00:57:51.792 --> 00:57:54.552
one okay um and we've talked about this a lot and

00:57:54.552 --> 00:57:57.392
this was this was really hard for me initially we're now

00:57:57.392 --> 00:58:02.412
months out and i'm feeling pretty much just fine but um being the one to leave

00:58:02.412 --> 00:58:06.652
sometimes means giving the person the gift of getting to play the victim and

00:58:06.652 --> 00:58:10.332
you essentially sign off to be like the villain in their story even if you're

00:58:10.332 --> 00:58:14.752
not the one that did anything wrong um but that that's okay because you know

00:58:14.752 --> 00:58:16.152
your truth. You know how you were treated.

00:58:16.372 --> 00:58:20.392
You know how many chances you gave everything that you forgave and every reason you chose to leave.

00:58:20.532 --> 00:58:23.732
So you need to just lean into that and find peace. Let them think whatever they

00:58:23.732 --> 00:58:26.992
need to, to ease their discomfort, but you know, your truth, you know, your reality.

00:58:27.292 --> 00:58:30.152
Um, but I think that can be really hard and that can be a reason that people

00:58:30.152 --> 00:58:33.652
stay in relationships because they don't want to be written off as the villain,

00:58:33.772 --> 00:58:37.412
the villain or the bad guy, especially when you're the one kind of taking the

00:58:37.412 --> 00:58:39.792
hit in the relationship over and over and over.

00:58:40.232 --> 00:58:43.012
Um, if you're the one that's like unhappy and you're the one

00:58:43.012 --> 00:58:46.452
that feels mistreated and then you leave

00:58:46.452 --> 00:58:49.552
and then somehow end up the bad guy like that's a that messes with

00:58:49.552 --> 00:58:52.292
the person oh and that's really hard and and that

00:58:52.292 --> 00:58:55.012
can feel like literally just the

00:58:55.012 --> 00:58:58.272
grossest feeling in the world but you know

00:58:58.272 --> 00:59:01.012
the truth and you know the reality and the and i think too

00:59:01.012 --> 00:59:03.872
you can kind of go down the like the truth always comes out

00:59:03.872 --> 00:59:06.572
type of thing where it's like that person is going to continue the same type of

00:59:06.572 --> 00:59:09.712
relationship pattern yep for the rest of their life and the

00:59:09.712 --> 00:59:13.112
people in their life are going to see that and going to watch that unfold and

00:59:13.112 --> 00:59:15.912
kind of be able to piece together you know absolutely pieces of

00:59:15.912 --> 00:59:18.692
it that are actually true and then you know your reality you know

00:59:18.692 --> 00:59:21.612
what happened you have every right to leave and that

00:59:21.612 --> 00:59:24.572
doesn't make you the bad guy no and choosing yourself is actually

00:59:24.572 --> 00:59:28.492
a really powerful and brave thing and it's not you're not the bad guy for choosing

00:59:28.492 --> 00:59:31.992
yourself no and i i didn't even realize you had that that one down because i

00:59:31.992 --> 00:59:35.452
don't know how much we talked about that but that is one of the most difficult

00:59:35.452 --> 00:59:39.032
things that when somebody's trying to leave a marriage or you know a long-term

00:59:39.032 --> 00:59:42.792
relationship is it's what i think if I had to put these stages of grief and

00:59:42.792 --> 00:59:43.892
loss and those sort of things together,

00:59:44.112 --> 00:59:46.272
it's one of these final ones that there's an acceptance,

00:59:46.852 --> 00:59:52.492
because the person will continually try to set it up so that they won't be the victim.

00:59:53.582 --> 00:59:56.642
Or they won't be the bad guy yeah and i'm telling them man the

00:59:56.642 --> 00:59:59.822
sooner you can accept oh you will right then that's

00:59:59.822 --> 01:00:03.042
okay yeah but it's you're so right it's hard yeah that's

01:00:03.042 --> 01:00:06.042
the one where i make jokes all the time about all the things i learn about that about

01:00:06.042 --> 01:00:09.642
even me as a therapist that i change people's sexual

01:00:09.642 --> 01:00:13.742
orientation i made them leave their churches i made them leave marriages i made

01:00:13.742 --> 01:00:17.362
them change careers i don't have that kind of power right but you get thrown

01:00:17.362 --> 01:00:20.202
into that bad guy position all the time because people need you're actually

01:00:20.202 --> 01:00:23.902
helping people so much but they need a scapegoat because that person can't just

01:00:23.902 --> 01:00:27.522
say you know what I think I was not really the most mature person in the relationship.

01:00:27.642 --> 01:00:28.342
I maybe messed up a little bit.

01:00:28.542 --> 01:00:30.902
I did some things wrong. It's like that person was bad.

01:00:31.402 --> 01:00:34.322
That therapist told him that. And that can be really hard to sit with.

01:00:34.582 --> 01:00:36.402
It's not worth. He used to it.

01:00:37.682 --> 01:00:41.302
But really it's not worth wasting your time or energy worrying about how that

01:00:41.302 --> 01:00:43.622
person's going to spin something. Thanks Mac. That was fun.

01:00:44.042 --> 01:00:47.262
Was it? I had a good time. Yeah. Okay. Kind of all over the place.

01:00:47.382 --> 01:00:50.502
We're going to go do a little top golfing with a little grandson baby

01:00:50.502 --> 01:00:53.622
guy cool good thing and then and i am on the social medias

01:00:53.622 --> 01:00:56.402
at virtual couch on instagram at virtual couch on

01:00:56.402 --> 01:01:01.442
tiktok where do they find you beauty by mackie on instagram and on the ticking

01:01:01.442 --> 01:01:06.162
talk i don't know what it is on there probably okay all right a fun one to follow

01:01:06.162 --> 01:01:09.402
though if you have thoughts or questions about this episode please write in.

01:01:09.402 --> 01:01:12.922
Because we would do a q a and taking this out per usual wonderful the talented

01:01:12.922 --> 01:01:15.522
rora florents with her song it's wonderful because if you do.