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Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch and or Waking

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Up to Narcissim. I think this is going to, this will run on both podcasts.

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I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

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I would absolutely love it if you would go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic

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and get on the wait list for my updated, new and improved magnetic marriage

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course coming soon to the internet near you.

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And that is going to talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation,

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the principles of differentiation, the anxious and the avoidant,

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and why it is so difficult to talk to our partner at times.

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We're going to talk about losing strategies and winning strategies.

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It is something that has been, I would say, years in the making,

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this reboot of the Magnetic Marriage course.

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You will not want to miss it. And then follow me on any of the social media

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platforms on Instagram at virtual.couch and on TikTok at virtualcouchsubstack,

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substack.com slash the virtual couch.

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There's a lot of content there, but let's get right into it.

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Today, I'm going to start with a listener's email.

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I love getting your emails and please send me questions.

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Send me questions about your relationships, your faith deconstructions,

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your emotional immaturity, parenting questions, whatever that looks like,

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because I love having a question as a muse.

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And you will see today, I've got an outline of where it's going to go.

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And I'm not even sure if it will go in that direction, which I think is the

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way life works a lot of times. Here's the listener's email.

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Okay. The person said, hi, Tony. I think I can speak fluent,

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Tony, maybe even better than you can, which right out of the gate, they had me there.

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A little flattering, maybe a little bit unsettling.

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Then he told me that his wife had sent him a video from a guy who goes by the people displeaser.

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His name's Nick Pollard. I'm familiar with the people displeaser.

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Spoiler alert, I like his work. So that's what made this even more fun.

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But he said, my wife and I have a bet. I said, I'm not going to tell you what

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I think yet because I don't want to lead the witness.

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Which is actually one of my favorite sayings. So I really do think this guy

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speaks pretty fluent me.

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He said, I want you to go first. I think you and I are going to be on the same

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page. She thinks that you are going to break this down into a million pieces.

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And I think that's so that she can wiggle her way out of whether or not we agree.

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So whether or not he wins the bet, I guess, depending on how many tangents I

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go on. So naturally, I'm invested.

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Now, before I read you the transcript he sent, I'll talk a little bit more about

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Nick Pollard. Again, I like his content. Here's the funny thing.

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I get a lot of people who want to be on the podcast, and I'm grateful for that.

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And I reach out and try to get guests on occasion. They will respond.

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And that's where I'll get, I don't know, you'll call it a big guest.

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And I like Nick's content. So I did reach out to him, I think,

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through TikTok a while back about coming on the podcast.

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And can you believe it? He said yes.

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And then I actually was the one who didn't follow through. So this is even more maybe karma.

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What the listener shared in this particular video, it's going to come across

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as a little bit bold and it's kind of direct.

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And I can understand why the listener sent it my way.

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And I even played it to get some comments in a men's group that I was facilitating

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a couple of nights ago. And it was funny.

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The very first thing out of the mouths of the people who were listening said,

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oh, I think I know why his wife sent him this. And everybody laughed.

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But here's the transcript that is included in the email. So Nick Pollard says,

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A shift that I used to manage my triggers has literally never failed me.

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But he said, you're not going to like it. And it's probably going to make you uncomfortable.

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He said, when I started digging into my triggers, I noticed that I was never

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triggered to do anything good.

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Never triggered to go to work earlier or to make a sales call or to count my

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calories or to have that piece of nicotine gum.

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And he said, and I was certainly never triggered to go to an AA meeting.

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But anytime I did something that I believed was right, I called it a choice.

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I chose to go to the meeting. I chose to have the gum. I chose to count my calories.

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But he said in that realization came a really uncomfortable truth that if I

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could choose the right things, then I was also choosing the not right things.

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And I don't know Nick personally, but it is funny because I have really been

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moving away from the right and wrong.

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And so I love that he said the right things and the not right things.

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And he said in my triggers and trauma responses were my responsibility.

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So he said, so I took the initiative and I changed the word trigger to I choose.

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And then he said, I choose to get drunk. I choose to eat 5,000 calories.

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I choose to have the cigarette.

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I choose to cheat. I choose to lie. And he said, and the darndest thing started

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happening when I took responsibility for myself in that way.

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I stopped doing those things because I realized that I was operating on a flawed

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code and it was my responsibility to solve it.

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But I had to stop blaming my past for the actions of today, which means I don't

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have any triggers anymore. He said, I either choose to do what's good for me

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and what's right, or I don't.

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So first of all, let that sit, because I think it will feel different depending

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on your experiences throughout your life, because you may hear that and think,

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okay, I don't think he really understands betrayal, or I don't think he really

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understands what triggers really are, or if only it was that easy.

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Here's my honest first reaction. When I listen to the core of what Nick is saying,

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at a high level, I agree with the heart of it. He's challenging the way that

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we use the word trigger, and he's pointing out something that's uncomfortable.

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But it's important as well to be able to have nuance here.

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He noticed that he was never triggered to do something healthy.

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He wasn't triggered to go to a meeting. He wasn't triggered to count calories.

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He wasn't triggered to make a sales call.

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But when those things did happen, he called them choices.

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I like that thought because I have not thought of it that way.

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Because yes, I'm choosing, at least this is the story my brain tells me,

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I'm choosing to work out when I get home,

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Or again, that's the story that I want to tell myself. And I have always just

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went with that story until after watching this video, reading this transcript,

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because I'm choosing the good thing.

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Now, when I eventually found myself eating the third Gear Deli dark chocolate

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and sea salt caramel without even pausing to take a breath between consuming

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one and unwrapping the other, I will be doggone it if such a true confession.

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When I was just writing out the outline of what I wanted to talk about on this

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podcast, I reached in my bag and I ate another.

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But that was not a choice. Au contraire, I was triggered.

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I was triggered because I was talking or writing about those dark chocolate sea salt caramels.

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Or at least, again, that's a story I want to tell myself. Because if I go back

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to this example, well, I chose to do the workout when I got home,

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but then I was triggered by my workout to be famished.

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And when famished and opening the refrigerator door, what am I supposed to do

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with the very combination of events?

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The choice to work out then led to the trigger of famine. Then I chose to open

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the refrigerator door to find something healthy to eat.

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And lo and behold, I was triggered by this open bag of caramels in the fridge door.

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I will now be waiting by my inbox for the emails where you tell me that you

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can't even begin to imagine how difficult that all must have been for me and

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how brave I was to be able to express that.

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But alas, this podcast isn't going to record itself yet. that insert AI joke

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there, the show needs to go on.

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It is funny, though, if I step back and just take all that in without judgment,

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that I absolutely pick and choose which things of mine I want to say are triggers

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or which things are choices.

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And heaven forbid we start talking about an impulse.

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And please, please know that I am going to do everything in my power not to victim blame or shame.

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That's not what this episode is about because I want you to stick with me because

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we're going to get into some really deep water here that I think is going to

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be really helpful and beneficial.

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Because we're going to get to how our reactions happen so quickly, how triggers are real.

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And I'll do my best to make sense of that distinction. Back to Nick's video,

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though, he had the realization that if the good behaviors were choices,

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then maybe the unhealthy ones were also choices as well.

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Now, when he started saying, I choose to drink, I choose to lie,

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I choose to cheat, something shifted.

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He stopped blaming his past. He stopped outsourcing responsibility and his behaviors

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changed. Easy peasy, right? Right.

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And maybe it is for him. I really don't know. And if so, that's amazing.

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However, if I had to guess, and it would not be guessing if I had followed through

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on booking him, so I think I will definitely need to make that happen.

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But I would guess that process that he's talking about took a fair amount of time.

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In my experience, that type of change can take years.

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I will quote the book, The Buddha's Brain by Rick Hansen, Every Chance I Get,

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where the implicit memory, what it feels like to be me or you,

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is based on the slow residue of lived experience. So we have this default to

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continue to do the things that we've done, that we've always done.

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And then we will then start to make change, but then we'll still default back

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to this home base of behavior, these deeply rutted neuropathways.

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And over time, we can essentially change that home base.

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Before I go any further, I want to pause on the word trigger itself,

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because that word, I think, has started to carry a lot more weight than maybe we realize.

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It's really fascinating to have been working as a therapist for years and watch

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certain words come into the lexicon and then take off and get used a lot.

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I think when I very first started in the business, it was bipolar.

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Bipolar was talked about a lot.

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Borderline, trauma, PTSD, CPTSD, narcissism, gaslighting.

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And you watch them have this arc where you start noticing these are getting talked about a lot more.

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I'm talking about them in sessions. I'm starting to generate more content around

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them. And then they hit a peak and then at some point people tend to think the word is overused.

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Over the past couple of years, I've noticed something pretty interesting in

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therapy with the word trigger. I've had clients come in and tell me that they

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are essentially triggered.

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By the word trigger, and they want a different word. And I'm not even saying

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that jokingly, because for some people who are dealing with real trauma,

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their history, their backstory, the word itself begins to feel heavy.

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It starts to feel permanent or almost like it is part of their identity.

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Am I always going to feel triggered?

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Almost if you admit that you have triggers, then you're signing up for a lifetime

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of being hijacked by them, which is not the case, but it can feel that way at times.

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And even that in and of itself is your body trying to communicate something

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to you. So, the word can quietly carry this undertone of hopelessness.

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Like, well, I guess this is just who I am now. I'm someone who gets triggered.

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And that can start to feel defeating before you have really even done the work.

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But the triggers are so big and so heavy. So, that concept of being triggered, I understand, is heavy.

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And then the part that I don't think people are going to talk about is seeing

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that word land differently on the other side of the room.

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When I'm working with somebody who has been the betrayer in a relationship,

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whether that's through infidelity, deception, addiction, or some other form

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of breaking trust, they will often then tell me privately, maybe in the one-on-one

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sessions, that even when they are accepting and they know that they've done

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the things that they're not proud of that have caused real damage to their partner,

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the relationship, they're not proud of.

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And they'll own it. This is talking about somebody that really will sit and own that.

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They feel the weight of it, but they struggle because at times what I hear is

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every difficult moment in the relationship is framed as, you're triggering me.

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Your behavior triggers me. That word triggers me. Because over time,

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that language can start to feel like an identity assignment to the betrayer

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rather than a description of the impact.

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It can feel like no matter what I do, I am the trigger.

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And that is not me minimizing impact at all.

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It's just trying to gently notice how language shapes experience.

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And that can be on both sides of the relationship.

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I am a betrayal trauma certified therapist. I even have a certification with

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my last name spelled incorrectly to prove it.

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But in our current climate, March, 2026, there is more victim blaming and victim

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shaming happening right now.

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I really want to assure you that the direction of today's episode is going to

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land more around the time it takes for change and how much of the content that's

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shared online, while it can be so incredibly helpful.

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It's important to note that it's coming typically from one person's human experience.

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And I think so many interesting factors are at play. That person may be putting

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out content in an effort to sell you something, to get likes and clicks and shares.

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Maybe it's even for their own validation, or it might even be coming from a

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place of healthy ego, something that person believes because of their lived

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experience, and they want to offer it up to the universe in hopes that it might

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be received and change lives for good.

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But with that comes the acceptance that there will be people who take one's

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words, their content, and see what that shows them.

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They're looking into their own mirror. If they don't like what they see,

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then they will attack the person putting out the content.

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So when I hear Nick's take, I don't just hear this hot take on accountability,

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but I also hear a reaction to how the word trigger has evolved culturally.

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And here's why I will own my projection, because I don't think anybody just

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wakes up one night and flips the word triggered to I choose,

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and then everything changes instantly.

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I would imagine there was a pretty decent runway that led up to that,

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where it just started to shift internally for him.

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I imagine there were stages. And this is where I cannot help but think of Rick

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Hansen's work in The Buddha's Brain.

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In another section that I really love, he talks about this path of awakening

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or path of enlightenment that just resonates with me.

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Before we get to that, he first borrows from the Buddha's idea of the first and second darts.

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And if you haven't heard this, I think this is also a powerful way to frame

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the things that we're going through in our day-to-day lives.

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The first dart is the unavoidable discomfort of essentially existing, being alive.

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If you live, if you love, and you do it long enough, you're going to experience a lot of emotions.

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Essentially, you're going to stub your toe when you're walking through the room in the dark.

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You're going to be misunderstood. You're going to feel disappointed,

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rejected, overlooked. That's the first dart.

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It's part of the human experience. It hurts, but it's natural. It's going to happen.

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The second dart is the reaction that we add to it. It's the dart that you throw at yourself.

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So you stub your toe and then right after the pain comes the anger.

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Who left the chair out? Or your partner seems kind of distant one evening.

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And then along with that already kind of a little bit of a natural drop in your

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stomach comes the old story.

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They don't care about me. I'm unwanted.

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That's the second dart. Most of our suffering doesn't come from the first dart.

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That's inevitable. Part of the human experience. Most of it comes from the second

00:14:31.538 --> 00:14:32.938
one, the one that we throw at ourselves.

00:14:33.298 --> 00:14:36.458
Then it gets even more layered because second darts often trigger more second

00:14:36.458 --> 00:14:39.918
darts. You feel angry, and then you feel guilty about being angry.

00:14:39.938 --> 00:14:42.498
So you feel hurt, and then you feel ashamed that you feel hurt.

00:14:42.838 --> 00:14:45.998
In relationships, these second darts are the things that start to create these

00:14:45.998 --> 00:14:47.638
vicious cycles in the relationship.

00:14:47.938 --> 00:14:51.418
My reaction triggers your reaction, which then triggers mine again.

00:14:51.518 --> 00:14:55.158
And before we know it, we're no longer dealing with whatever the problem was,

00:14:55.278 --> 00:14:57.238
the milk that didn't get bought or brought home.

00:14:57.358 --> 00:15:02.358
We're dealing with childhood wounds, attachment fears, threats to our identity

00:15:02.358 --> 00:15:05.698
and to our ego. And what I love about the way he frames it is that he describes

00:15:05.698 --> 00:15:07.978
these stages of growth along this path.

00:15:08.378 --> 00:15:11.458
Stage one is unconscious incompetence.

00:15:12.198 --> 00:15:14.638
Unconscious. You're not even aware of it, but you're pretty incompetent.

00:15:14.858 --> 00:15:16.978
And that's in a bless your heart kind of way.

00:15:17.618 --> 00:15:20.638
You're caught in these second dart reactions, but you don't even know it.

00:15:21.187 --> 00:15:24.587
Your partner forgets to bring milk home. You're just angry about the milk and

00:15:24.587 --> 00:15:27.207
you think that your anger makes perfect sense. Actually, you're not even thinking

00:15:27.207 --> 00:15:28.407
about it. You're just angry.

00:15:29.207 --> 00:15:32.567
Then he talks about stage two on this path of awakening. Stage two is called

00:15:32.567 --> 00:15:34.447
conscious incompetence.

00:15:34.907 --> 00:15:39.067
I'm aware now that I'm kind of being a jerk. I am conscious of my incompetence.

00:15:39.427 --> 00:15:44.027
Now you realize that your amygdala is hijacked, but you just can't stop yourself.

00:15:44.167 --> 00:15:46.787
You've already been pulled into the tractor beam and you're squirming.

00:15:47.047 --> 00:15:49.267
You know the reaction is probably bigger than the situation.

00:15:49.587 --> 00:15:53.387
Oh, actually, you know it is. but you cannot stop it. You're still grumbling.

00:15:53.767 --> 00:15:59.207
And what is so enlightening about framing things in these stages is that's the

00:15:59.207 --> 00:16:00.427
stage that is the hardest.

00:16:00.847 --> 00:16:04.687
It's the one where people want to quit. They want to give up because awareness

00:16:04.687 --> 00:16:08.047
is here. I'm conscious, but I am incompetent.

00:16:08.307 --> 00:16:10.627
That awareness does not mean that the job is done.

00:16:11.187 --> 00:16:16.267
It's now on your road to mastering whatever this situation is.

00:16:16.407 --> 00:16:21.907
Then there's stage three, conscious competence. I'm now aware and I kind of know what to do.

00:16:22.627 --> 00:16:26.647
The reaction is arising, and I'm aware of it, but I don't necessarily act on it.

00:16:26.707 --> 00:16:31.127
I built in the pause. I feel the irritation, but I can remind myself, you know what?

00:16:31.427 --> 00:16:33.587
They forgot the milk, but they do a lot.

00:16:33.967 --> 00:16:36.987
And you start recognizing nobody's perfect. I forget things.

00:16:37.527 --> 00:16:42.047
And then finally, there is the stage of enlightenment, awakening.

00:16:42.387 --> 00:16:46.067
He calls this one stage four or unconscious competence.

00:16:46.647 --> 00:16:50.167
I'm just doing and being. This is the way that I show up.

00:16:50.267 --> 00:16:55.887
This is my reaction. My reaction isn't anywhere near that unhealthy or emotionally immature way.

00:16:56.187 --> 00:17:00.307
They forget the milk and there isn't a pause in my body.

00:17:00.807 --> 00:17:05.047
I just say, hey, we can make something without it. I'm probably calming the

00:17:05.047 --> 00:17:07.407
person who now feels bad about forgetting the milk.

00:17:08.087 --> 00:17:12.667
Calm from a place with perspective, grounded. So when I hear Nick say he shifted

00:17:12.667 --> 00:17:18.527
from I was triggered to I choose, I can imagine that shift maybe happening somewhere along those stages.

00:17:18.527 --> 00:17:21.787
I imagine, and this is, again, my projection,

00:17:22.427 --> 00:17:26.667
a long stretch of not even knowing what he didn't know, then starting to realize

00:17:26.667 --> 00:17:30.247
he was hijacked, then realizing it over and over again and slowly starting to

00:17:30.247 --> 00:17:34.127
interrupt the pattern more often than not, and eventually becoming somebody

00:17:34.127 --> 00:17:35.787
whose default has changed.

00:17:36.207 --> 00:17:41.567
So that feels less like this single moment of revelation and more like a path,

00:17:41.587 --> 00:17:46.747
because I think so often people hear of stories like this and they make so much sense.

00:17:46.747 --> 00:17:49.467
But then when they can't just immediately flip a

00:17:49.467 --> 00:17:52.467
switch now they go back to the they're doing something wrong and i

00:17:52.467 --> 00:17:55.167
think that distinction is significant because if

00:17:55.167 --> 00:17:58.607
somebody listening hears this and says okay tonight starting

00:17:58.607 --> 00:18:04.627
tonight i choose differently i will never have triggers again i would imagine

00:18:04.627 --> 00:18:09.007
they're most likely setting themselves up for frustration and then eventually

00:18:09.007 --> 00:18:13.227
beating themselves up and then shame will creep in and then it almost has a

00:18:13.227 --> 00:18:15.687
net negative effect growth is.

00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:20.910
I think tends to look more like stumbling through that stage two for quite a

00:18:20.910 --> 00:18:24.730
while before you get to stage three and you start to realize,

00:18:24.990 --> 00:18:26.810
I'm starting to do this more often than I'm not.

00:18:27.030 --> 00:18:30.430
And then you start to feel more steady, grounded.

00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:36.170
So there isn't any failure there. It just is. It's part of the work.

00:18:36.430 --> 00:18:39.950
And there's something really powerful about that shift.

00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:46.350
I have sat with so many clients who feel captive to their reactions. They are just reacting.

00:18:46.610 --> 00:18:49.330
And that's where I want to go back to the concept of being triggered.

00:18:49.530 --> 00:18:54.430
They say I was triggered and it almost carries this tone of inevitability.

00:18:54.730 --> 00:18:58.190
Like once the button was pushed, the outcome was pretty much predetermined.

00:18:58.590 --> 00:19:02.450
And there's a case to be made for that. When somebody says, no,

00:19:02.630 --> 00:19:05.630
I chose, that does interrupt helplessness.

00:19:05.710 --> 00:19:08.490
So that can feel like you are more empowered.

00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:12.250
It restores your agency, it brings you back into the driver's seat.

00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:16.010
So from a differentiation standpoint, the lens of David Schnarch and his work

00:19:16.010 --> 00:19:18.270
on differentiation, that is solid ground.

00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:21.030
I mean, differentiation is about self-confrontation. It's about saying,

00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:22.890
actually, everything's a me thing.

00:19:23.070 --> 00:19:26.390
Even my reactions are a me thing, because then if I go down the path of what

00:19:26.390 --> 00:19:29.830
was I supposed to do, well, that's actually a good question. Now the work begins.

00:19:30.290 --> 00:19:33.210
It's time to go to therapy. Maybe I need to look at some of the trauma-based

00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:38.170
therapies, some EMDR or brain spotting or brain mapping, or I need to really

00:19:38.170 --> 00:19:42.170
be serious about guided meditation. I need to learn to lower my overall resting

00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:45.190
heart rate so I have a longer runway until I hit my startle response.

00:19:45.570 --> 00:19:50.190
But that's mine. The work is mine. Not, well, if you wouldn't have done that,

00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:53.830
or you made me do it. And this is where I think it gets tricky.

00:19:54.070 --> 00:19:57.610
Not even, well, what I was supposed to do is my past. That's my childhood.

00:19:58.290 --> 00:20:01.790
Not my trauma forced me, but it is, I did do that thing,

00:20:02.543 --> 00:20:05.563
And that kind of ownership is deeply aligned with emotional maturity.

00:20:06.243 --> 00:20:09.003
But if even the way that I just framed

00:20:09.003 --> 00:20:12.723
that last paragraph felt a little triggering, I hear you. I really do.

00:20:13.143 --> 00:20:17.463
Because our childhood, the things that we bring into the relationship,

00:20:17.823 --> 00:20:21.783
into who we are right now, it did come from somewhere.

00:20:22.003 --> 00:20:25.663
That's why I love origin stories so much. I mean, I want to be really clear with that.

00:20:25.863 --> 00:20:30.483
I do say that we are responsible for our behavior.

00:20:31.143 --> 00:20:35.223
Trauma can explain why we developed certain patterns, but it really doesn't

00:20:35.223 --> 00:20:37.143
excuse the harm that we cause.

00:20:37.263 --> 00:20:40.783
And I'm talking about first to ourselves and then also to others.

00:20:41.103 --> 00:20:45.603
In that sense, I am really on board with what Nick's saying,

00:20:45.923 --> 00:20:50.043
especially for people who have used the word triggered as a shield or as a way

00:20:50.043 --> 00:20:51.103
to avoid accountability.

00:20:51.963 --> 00:20:57.783
That kind of reframe, it can be life-changing, game-changing for sure,

00:20:57.923 --> 00:21:01.263
because there's something sobering about looking at your life and saying, okay,

00:21:01.583 --> 00:21:07.423
I did choose this, but I also understand why, why I got to this point where

00:21:07.423 --> 00:21:09.563
that is what I did. It just is.

00:21:10.023 --> 00:21:16.143
And now I can work with it. I can move away from it. I can understand it more. Now the work begins.

00:21:16.283 --> 00:21:20.703
It strips away this illusion that your behavior for the rest of your life is inevitable.

00:21:21.412 --> 00:21:24.792
But then I literally want to slow my roll a bit.

00:21:25.012 --> 00:21:28.312
This is probably where the listener's wife, the guy who wrote in,

00:21:28.452 --> 00:21:32.352
thinks I'm going to start breaking this into pieces because I kind of am.

00:21:32.812 --> 00:21:38.812
The line that gives me pause is when he says that this means he doesn't have any triggers anymore.

00:21:39.212 --> 00:21:42.012
That's where I just gently want to lean back and think, okay,

00:21:42.312 --> 00:21:45.532
maybe we need to talk a little bit more about the nervous system science because

00:21:45.532 --> 00:21:50.932
triggers in the sense of a conditioned nervous system response are real.

00:21:51.412 --> 00:21:55.692
Your emotional reaction, some believe your emotions travel up to two and a half

00:21:55.692 --> 00:21:57.992
times faster than your logical response.

00:21:58.232 --> 00:22:03.112
And that's a survival mechanism. And some believe that it even travels faster

00:22:03.112 --> 00:22:08.732
when you've been betrayed because you're hypersensitive and wired for vigilance.

00:22:08.952 --> 00:22:13.752
And now taking that, if you grew up in chaos, oh, your body learned to scan

00:22:13.752 --> 00:22:14.952
for threats constantly.

00:22:15.112 --> 00:22:20.012
If you experienced betrayal, your system learned to anticipate abandonment.

00:22:20.012 --> 00:22:24.272
If you wired your brain through addiction, certain cues are going to light up

00:22:24.272 --> 00:22:25.712
those pathways of your brain.

00:22:26.092 --> 00:22:30.232
So then the initial surge of emotion, the adrenaline spike, the tightening in

00:22:30.232 --> 00:22:35.312
your chest, the rush of shame or anger, that isn't something you consciously choose.

00:22:35.552 --> 00:22:39.252
That's your neurobiological response doing what it was trained to do.

00:22:39.672 --> 00:22:44.572
Where choice comes in is what happens next. And I think that that distinction matters a lot.

00:22:44.872 --> 00:22:48.432
I may not choose the first flicker of anger when I feel dismissed.

00:22:48.432 --> 00:22:53.452
And I don't choose the immediate jolt of fear if something touches an old wound.

00:22:54.631 --> 00:23:01.411
I can learn to choose whether I raise my voice or whether I withdraw or I choose

00:23:01.411 --> 00:23:05.111
whether then to control, lie, drink, or lash out.

00:23:05.271 --> 00:23:08.791
There are times where I'm even going to choose to do that. And I'm going to

00:23:08.791 --> 00:23:12.271
be honest with myself that that's what I'm doing. And that is a place of growth.

00:23:12.831 --> 00:23:17.071
So if somebody says I was triggered, so I yelled, that's a place to begin.

00:23:17.391 --> 00:23:22.471
But now the work begins because that still is a bit of an emotionally immature

00:23:22.471 --> 00:23:27.671
response where the more adult decision response might be speaking up for myself,

00:23:27.711 --> 00:23:28.751
or it might be a boundary.

00:23:29.131 --> 00:23:32.551
If I'm noticing that I want to yell, then I'm going to leave.

00:23:32.891 --> 00:23:36.351
Not an ultimatum. You need to not say that thing because I might yell,

00:23:36.491 --> 00:23:39.871
but hey, if I'm noticing that you're saying the thing, I'm probably going to take off.

00:23:40.531 --> 00:23:44.191
That's starting to become a little bit more in the emotional maturity camp.

00:23:44.691 --> 00:23:48.211
But if somebody says I was triggered and slight reframe here,

00:23:48.471 --> 00:23:51.951
I was triggered And you know what? Yeah, I was like, oh, I'm yelling.

00:23:52.331 --> 00:23:54.491
At least we're starting to move into the territory of accountability.

00:23:55.031 --> 00:23:59.991
The trigger explains the internal activation, and then the choice is defined by that behavior.

00:24:00.870 --> 00:24:03.510
And the other reason I want to really be careful here is because of the people

00:24:03.510 --> 00:24:05.270
who already over-own everything.

00:24:05.510 --> 00:24:08.130
Part of the reason why I want this to go not just to the virtual couch audience,

00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:11.450
but also my wonderful waking up the narcissism audience, is that a lot of the

00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:15.870
people who listen to that podcast in particular are navigating some really emotionally

00:24:15.870 --> 00:24:18.150
immature, even narcissistic relationships.

00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:20.850
And I call them the pathologically kind.

00:24:21.470 --> 00:24:25.610
They are kind to their detriment, the pathological piece to that kindness.

00:24:25.610 --> 00:24:31.170
And I do not want somebody to eventually move away from this desire to be kind.

00:24:31.410 --> 00:24:36.190
But when it is to your detriment, then it's important to really understand how

00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:37.230
you show up in a situation.

00:24:37.570 --> 00:24:41.310
Back to the boundary concept. Because if I'm starting to notice,

00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:44.070
fill in the blank, then I need to do something.

00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:47.410
The pathologically kind people, they're the ones who already assume everything

00:24:47.410 --> 00:24:53.430
is their fault. So if they hear you choose every trauma response and there is

00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:56.850
no nuance there, I worry it will quietly morph into shame.

00:24:57.070 --> 00:25:00.670
And shame does not produce sustainable growth.

00:25:01.070 --> 00:25:05.590
Shame produces rigidity. It produces suppression. It produces white knuckling through things.

00:25:06.388 --> 00:25:10.188
What I try to help people do instead is hold more than one truth at once.

00:25:10.428 --> 00:25:15.208
My past shaped my nervous system and I'm responsible for my behavior.

00:25:15.428 --> 00:25:17.348
And I might not even know what to do next.

00:25:17.828 --> 00:25:21.688
And I'm going to figure it out. My trauma is context.

00:25:22.228 --> 00:25:27.108
And I still even hesitate even saying the next line of it's not my excuse.

00:25:27.708 --> 00:25:33.388
My trauma is real. And now I can accept that I've had traumatic experiences.

00:25:34.468 --> 00:25:37.548
And now what can I do? to help myself.

00:25:38.128 --> 00:25:42.328
So that's where I would suspect that most people listening, and I probably agree

00:25:42.328 --> 00:25:47.588
far more than we disagree, that I'm not interested in creating wiggle room for irresponsibility.

00:25:47.728 --> 00:25:53.508
I'm more interested in people being able to get to the bottom of reclaiming their own agency.

00:25:53.608 --> 00:25:57.048
And that's really scary, especially when you don't know what to do with it.

00:25:57.268 --> 00:26:01.728
I don't want to flatten out the complexity of how the nervous system works in the process.

00:26:01.988 --> 00:26:05.248
There's a big difference between saying triggers don't exist and then saying

00:26:05.248 --> 00:26:09.388
triggers aren't going to run my life. They're still going to show up at times, but,

00:26:10.088 --> 00:26:12.728
That's to be expected. They're not going to completely go away.

00:26:13.968 --> 00:26:17.468
Because that first concept dismisses biology, then the second one,

00:26:17.548 --> 00:26:19.988
I think, is more of it's going to build character or who I am.

00:26:20.528 --> 00:26:23.688
So if the bet is whether I agree with the heart of the message, I do.

00:26:24.628 --> 00:26:29.848
Adults eventually choose their behavior. Where I'll always add nuance is in

00:26:29.848 --> 00:26:32.648
protecting the space, though, between activation and then action,

00:26:32.668 --> 00:26:33.908
because that's where the growth lives.

00:26:34.348 --> 00:26:37.808
That's where the differentiation happens. That's where we learn that we can

00:26:37.808 --> 00:26:40.588
feel something intensely without being owned by it.

00:26:40.688 --> 00:26:45.768
And we're not doing anything wrong if it still comes up in our body or even in our thoughts.

00:26:46.228 --> 00:26:51.128
I want to stay right here for a second because this is the part that I was looking forward to.

00:26:51.288 --> 00:26:54.028
I've got a little bullet point that I just now want to riff a little bit because

00:26:54.028 --> 00:26:57.428
here's something that's been rattling around in my head as I've been working through all of this.

00:26:57.608 --> 00:27:00.808
And I think it connects more than I initially realized. We're talking about

00:27:00.808 --> 00:27:03.568
the word trigger and how it lands differently depending on who's hearing it

00:27:03.568 --> 00:27:05.908
and how it can feel like a prison sentence for one person.

00:27:06.048 --> 00:27:08.668
And it can also seem almost like a shield for another.

00:27:09.228 --> 00:27:14.288
And then one of the important pieces here is how the language itself shapes the experience.

00:27:14.448 --> 00:27:17.868
And I keep coming back to this idea that the words that we use aren't neutral.

00:27:18.048 --> 00:27:20.388
And it's not from a you must get every word correct.

00:27:20.748 --> 00:27:24.248
The semantics do matter because words can carry weight.

00:27:24.688 --> 00:27:28.268
Words can carry history. They carry assumptions about who we are and what we

00:27:28.268 --> 00:27:33.148
deserve. I'm currently mulling over a concept that has to do with consequence.

00:27:33.288 --> 00:27:37.188
And I don't really like the word consequence. And I've been toying with the word outcome.

00:27:37.388 --> 00:27:40.568
I like that one better because if we're going to talk about the power of language,

00:27:40.568 --> 00:27:41.908
I think that's really what...

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:46.620
This episode has as a through line, then I need to take us somewhere that might

00:27:46.620 --> 00:27:49.500
feel like a very, very sharp left turn.

00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:54.360
But I promise you it's not. Because there's another word that I think does even

00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:55.680
more damage than trigger.

00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:58.820
And I think it's one that a lot of you carry, whether you're aware of it or

00:27:58.820 --> 00:28:00.820
not. And that word is sin.

00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.420
Sin and shame are ones that they're essentially best friends.

00:28:05.560 --> 00:28:08.080
I think they hang out a lot together. They go to sleepovers.

00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:11.880
I think they did some summer camps together, but stay with me because I know

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.400
that for some of you, that word is deeply meaningful in your faith tradition.

00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:16.240
And I absolutely respect that.

00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.500
For others, you may have already moved far away from it entirely.

00:28:19.600 --> 00:28:24.180
And you're wondering, what are you trying to say, old man? Why are you bringing this up? Here's why.

00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:28.160
Because even if you've intellectually moved past the concepts of sin,

00:28:28.340 --> 00:28:33.800
I would bet that the feeling it installed in your programming is still running in the background.

00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:35.940
You don't even know how to force quit it.

00:28:36.420 --> 00:28:41.220
And this came up just a couple of days ago. I came across a quote from a guy

00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:42.280
named Father Richard Rohr.

00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.960
If you aren't familiar with him, Richard Rohr is a Franciscan priest.

00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:49.340
He's not somebody that's poking at faith from the outside.

00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:54.400
He's speaking from deep inside the tradition. And this is what he said,

00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:56.240
and I just loved it. And I'm going to paraphrase parts of it,

00:28:56.320 --> 00:28:57.540
but I really want to get to the heart of it.

00:28:57.620 --> 00:29:01.500
He said that we got obsessed with the notion of sin as a moral category,

00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:05.680
which then immediately puts you in this lane of judgment, reward, and punishment.

00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:09.180
And that he said, if we had remained in what he calls the Jesus lane,

00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:14.280
then we would have said that the issue is not sin, but it's brokenness.

00:29:14.840 --> 00:29:19.320
And yes, I know that I say you're not broken, you're human, but in the context

00:29:19.320 --> 00:29:21.400
of what we're going to talk about right now, I'm on board.

00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:25.320
Again, he said that the issue is not sin, but brokenness and the need for healing.

00:29:25.580 --> 00:29:29.340
And Richard Rohr is a big 12-step guy, so he connected that to 12-step work

00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:32.680
saying that the, he says the spirit, that it's clearest, most simple work through

00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:37.020
the 12-step program, which recognize that addiction is not a sin to be confessed,

00:29:37.540 --> 00:29:39.100
but it's a healing to be requested.

00:29:39.913 --> 00:29:43.713
And then he said something I think is so profound for anybody who has had the

00:29:43.713 --> 00:29:47.713
opportunity to sit with another human being and try to help them untangle their

00:29:47.713 --> 00:29:48.993
story, whether you're a therapist,

00:29:49.213 --> 00:29:55.133
whether you're in a position of ecclesiastical authority, or just a friend, or a kid, or a coworker.

00:29:55.513 --> 00:29:59.153
He said that if you've ever directed somebody, meaning walked with them spiritually,

00:29:59.413 --> 00:30:03.033
or I would say therapeutically, or just in life, he said, you know that this

00:30:03.033 --> 00:30:04.113
stuff is intergenerational.

00:30:04.473 --> 00:30:06.153
It's not one person's sin.

00:30:06.713 --> 00:30:09.813
Richard Rohr said, it's the sin of my culture. It's a sin of my nationality,

00:30:09.993 --> 00:30:11.173
my family, my inheritance.

00:30:11.833 --> 00:30:16.613
And he said that it is passed from parent to child, parent to child, parent to child.

00:30:17.053 --> 00:30:21.633
And this is the part that landed so well for me that he said,

00:30:21.813 --> 00:30:24.113
with that in mind, it doesn't deserve judgment.

00:30:24.393 --> 00:30:28.113
It deserves sympathy and healing. Maybe you can see how that connects to everything

00:30:28.113 --> 00:30:28.933
that we're talking about today.

00:30:29.313 --> 00:30:33.053
When we started with Nick Pollard's reframe of Triggered to I Choose,

00:30:33.453 --> 00:30:36.873
which is about reclaiming your agency. And then I said, yes,

00:30:37.053 --> 00:30:41.473
also let's protect the space between activation and action because that's where the growth happens.

00:30:42.281 --> 00:30:45.681
But now I want to zoom back even further, because what Rohr is pointing at is

00:30:45.681 --> 00:30:48.241
the framework underneath the framework.

00:30:48.501 --> 00:30:52.281
He's asking, what if the whole system that we've been using to evaluate our

00:30:52.281 --> 00:30:56.461
behavior, this sin-based, confession-based, judgment-based model,

00:30:56.701 --> 00:31:01.821
what if that system itself has a big role to play in the problem?

00:31:02.261 --> 00:31:06.381
What if the very structure that's supposed to help us get better is one of the

00:31:06.381 --> 00:31:10.361
things that is keeping us stuck? And I'll tell you why this matters to me clinically,

00:31:10.361 --> 00:31:14.721
because in my office, I see this play out probably every day that I have people

00:31:14.721 --> 00:31:16.541
sitting across from me who are doing the work.

00:31:16.761 --> 00:31:20.521
They're showing up. They're trying to be better partners, better parents, better humans.

00:31:20.941 --> 00:31:24.721
But then somewhere deep in their operating system, deep in their psyche,

00:31:24.861 --> 00:31:28.601
there's this belief that says, but you're bad though.

00:31:28.821 --> 00:31:31.601
You're still bad. Don't get too far away from that.

00:31:31.861 --> 00:31:36.861
You still did the thing. You're still a sinner. And I'm convinced that belief

00:31:36.861 --> 00:31:38.401
doesn't produce change.

00:31:38.601 --> 00:31:40.401
It does produce shame.

00:31:41.221 --> 00:31:45.841
And shame doesn't motivate lasting growth. Shame produces rigid,

00:31:46.161 --> 00:31:47.501
black and white, all or nothing thinking.

00:31:48.001 --> 00:31:52.561
Shame produces hiding. It produces white knuckling through addiction.

00:31:52.921 --> 00:31:57.121
It produces people performing recovery instead of actually healing.

00:31:57.461 --> 00:32:00.461
So where does shame get installed? Where does the shame come from?

00:32:01.021 --> 00:32:05.581
And I think this is where it gets really fascinating and honestly, also heartbreaking.

00:32:06.021 --> 00:32:09.801
Because I don't think it started necessarily in a church. I think it started

00:32:09.801 --> 00:32:13.141
in a kitchen or a living room or a car ride home from school.

00:32:13.481 --> 00:32:16.861
You're four years old. You're doing what four-year-olds do. You're moving through

00:32:16.861 --> 00:32:19.561
the world impulsively, curiously, clumsily.

00:32:19.801 --> 00:32:22.861
Let's just say you knock something over or you say something that you were told

00:32:22.861 --> 00:32:25.161
not to say or it's taken as very rude.

00:32:25.641 --> 00:32:28.781
Or you do something that your parent literally told you not to do,

00:32:28.901 --> 00:32:33.581
even though you honestly don't fully understand why you were told not to do it.

00:32:34.141 --> 00:32:37.301
Again, because you're four, but now your parent's upset.

00:32:38.113 --> 00:32:41.173
And they, whether they recognize this or not, need something from you.

00:32:41.433 --> 00:32:44.673
They need to see that you understand that what you did was wrong.

00:32:45.053 --> 00:32:50.133
So they need the apology. They need the face. They need you to look sad or sorry

00:32:50.133 --> 00:32:54.173
or scared because, and I say this with compassion for the parent too,

00:32:54.373 --> 00:32:57.033
because they're running their own inherited programming.

00:32:57.433 --> 00:33:01.433
Because if you don't look like you feel bad enough, then you obviously don't

00:33:01.433 --> 00:33:05.793
understand how bad the thing that you did is. And if you don't understand that,

00:33:05.933 --> 00:33:08.093
then what does that say about them as a parent?

00:33:08.613 --> 00:33:12.253
If my kid hasn't even shown remorse, are they even doing their job as a parent?

00:33:12.693 --> 00:33:16.053
Eventually the kid performs. The kid learns to read the room.

00:33:16.173 --> 00:33:19.733
The kid figures out what expression will make the scary moment stop.

00:33:20.173 --> 00:33:23.113
What expression will allow me to come out of my room sooner?

00:33:23.733 --> 00:33:28.913
What expression will then allow me to stay home because I'm showing that I am sick?

00:33:29.669 --> 00:33:33.849
And here's where the challenge is, I'll say the damage can start to happen.

00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:35.989
And it's so subtle that nobody even notices.

00:33:36.469 --> 00:33:38.089
A four-year-old doesn't have

00:33:38.089 --> 00:33:42.909
the cognitive architecture to separate I did a bad thing from I am bad.

00:33:43.429 --> 00:33:47.829
So those two concepts are fused. They're one thing. And in that moment,

00:33:48.109 --> 00:33:50.529
shame gets installed. Not guilt.

00:33:51.089 --> 00:33:55.169
Guilt, which I could still poke holes in, says, I did something that I want to repair.

00:33:55.449 --> 00:33:57.649
Notice I don't even want to say I did something wrong or bad,

00:33:57.749 --> 00:34:00.369
but I need to repair that. not my finest moment.

00:34:00.889 --> 00:34:07.369
Shame says, I am bad. I am fundamentally broken. And that shame becomes the operating system.

00:34:07.889 --> 00:34:11.309
So then what happens? The kid grows up and maybe they do walk into a church

00:34:11.309 --> 00:34:13.169
and somebody tells them, you're a sinner.

00:34:13.769 --> 00:34:17.049
And it actually doesn't feel that new. It actually feels familiar.

00:34:17.409 --> 00:34:20.549
It confirms what they believed about themselves ever since they were small.

00:34:20.849 --> 00:34:23.249
Of course, I'm a sinner. Yeah, I need to confess.

00:34:23.949 --> 00:34:28.649
There are plenty of things wrong with me. And I need somebody to tell me that I'm okay.

00:34:28.869 --> 00:34:32.309
I need somebody to tell me that that feeling or that emotion is the right one.

00:34:32.569 --> 00:34:37.149
I need to perform well. I need to hang my head. I need to be very performative

00:34:37.149 --> 00:34:40.389
and transactional so that then I can get what I want, which what I want might

00:34:40.389 --> 00:34:42.769
just be the attaboy champ.

00:34:42.969 --> 00:34:47.229
You look like you really are repentant. You look like you're really taking this seriously.

00:34:47.689 --> 00:34:50.969
So, I learned to perform. And I also learned at the same time,

00:34:51.189 --> 00:34:52.889
I'm broken and something's wrong with me.

00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:57.049
And that whole system then reinforces the wound instead of healing it.

00:34:57.309 --> 00:35:02.289
And I don't think that's what the concepts around religion were there for, to make you feel worse.

00:35:02.749 --> 00:35:05.169
I think that's what Richard Rohr is getting at when he says,

00:35:05.349 --> 00:35:09.949
this is intergenerational. It's not one person's sin. It's a pattern. It's inherited.

00:35:10.369 --> 00:35:14.009
The parent who needed you to perform remorse, well, they learned that from their parent.

00:35:14.249 --> 00:35:18.209
Who learned it from theirs? And somewhere along the way, we built entire institutions

00:35:18.209 --> 00:35:23.209
around the idea that this cycle of shame and confession and judgment was the path to healing.

00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:28.060
And here's Richard Rohr from the inside, inside of one of those institutions

00:35:28.060 --> 00:35:30.260
saying, I don't think that's it.

00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:35.120
I think the path is recognizing brokenness and requesting healing,

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:41.180
not performing penance, not trying to prove you're sorry enough. It's healing.

00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:46.960
I've worked with so many people who have done things that they're not very proud

00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.280
of, things that they never anticipated they would do.

00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:53.240
And when that is brought from the shadows out into the light,

00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:55.920
which I think needs to be a time of healing.

00:35:56.420 --> 00:35:59.720
It takes a tremendous amount of courage for a person to do that.

00:35:59.900 --> 00:36:05.800
Some of my favorite work is when somebody really trusts me and opens up and says, here it all is.

00:36:06.180 --> 00:36:10.720
And then I get to respond and say, man, thank you. I can't imagine how heavy

00:36:10.720 --> 00:36:12.160
that was to carry all of that.

00:36:12.740 --> 00:36:17.780
But now they need to go show someone else, hey, I did this thing.

00:36:17.900 --> 00:36:23.680
And that person now is in charge of their, in essence, their outward looking salvation.

00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:30.700
Now I'm handing this important emotional thing over to somebody who doesn't

00:36:30.700 --> 00:36:33.820
know what it feels like to be me. And I'm saying, do you think I'm okay?

00:36:34.220 --> 00:36:39.060
But you are okay. What if that is the programming that the goal was to know

00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:41.200
that you're going to go through life and do things?

00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:45.280
And let's go full acceptance and commitment therapy here. This is why I stress

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.740
that you're the only version of you walking the face of the earth.

00:36:48.300 --> 00:36:51.600
Going through life for the very first time, and you did the things you did because you did them.

00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:56.380
And over time, you were telling yourself all kinds of stories of why you did them.

00:36:56.520 --> 00:37:01.280
But at some point, it's important to accept that those are the things I did,

00:37:01.460 --> 00:37:03.220
because now I can start to heal.

00:37:03.700 --> 00:37:08.560
Because what is shame? When I look at it clinically, shame is cognitive fusion

00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:10.060
at its most destructive.

00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:16.940
It's fusing to a thought, and we need to learn to change the relationship with our thoughts. And,

00:37:17.417 --> 00:37:21.737
It's so destructive to fuse to shame. It's not, I'm having the thought that

00:37:21.737 --> 00:37:23.437
I messed up. It's, oh, I messed up.

00:37:23.877 --> 00:37:29.197
And if I step back from that, when somebody says, I'm mad, honestly, though, I'm me.

00:37:29.597 --> 00:37:33.257
And I'm noticing I'm mad because now I can really look at what am I mad about?

00:37:33.637 --> 00:37:35.097
What's the story my brain's telling me?

00:37:35.617 --> 00:37:38.517
The thought and the self become one thing.

00:37:39.057 --> 00:37:43.117
And what does the traditional sin framework ask you to do? It asks you to walk

00:37:43.117 --> 00:37:45.317
into a room and declare that you are a sinner.

00:37:45.877 --> 00:37:49.097
It asks you to fuse with the most painful story that you can tell about yourself.

00:37:49.457 --> 00:37:53.197
And then it tells you that doing so is the path to freedom, but I got to do

00:37:53.197 --> 00:37:56.537
it in the right way so that somebody else will tell me that I'm okay.

00:37:57.057 --> 00:37:58.797
But from where I sit, that's not freedom.

00:37:59.437 --> 00:38:03.077
Freedom is defusing. Freedom is being able to notice the thought.

00:38:03.857 --> 00:38:08.077
I'm telling myself the unbroken thought or the I did bad or I did the thing

00:38:08.077 --> 00:38:10.537
and hold it with some space.

00:38:11.197 --> 00:38:15.417
View it in the context of this moment. to say, I'm having the thought that something is wrong with me.

00:38:15.517 --> 00:38:17.997
And I noticed that that thought has been with me since I was very small.

00:38:18.017 --> 00:38:22.457
And it was given to me by people who were carrying their own version of it. Bless their heart.

00:38:22.937 --> 00:38:27.077
That's not avoiding responsibility. That's actually deeper responsibility because

00:38:27.077 --> 00:38:31.377
now you're not just owning the behavior, you're owning the pattern.

00:38:31.637 --> 00:38:37.157
And that's where you can begin to stop the pattern and have an impact that will

00:38:37.157 --> 00:38:40.517
be generational moving forward. You're saying, you're not.

00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:44.499
I am going to be the courageous one, the brave one, to see where this came from.

00:38:44.799 --> 00:38:47.399
And now I'm going to choose to do something different with it.

00:38:47.759 --> 00:38:52.159
And that brings us full circle, doesn't it? Nick Pollard said at the beginning, I choose.

00:38:52.459 --> 00:38:56.359
And I said, yeah, let's also take a look at the nervous system that fires before the choice arrives.

00:38:56.899 --> 00:39:00.379
Now, Roar is adding another layer. What if the framework you've been using to

00:39:00.379 --> 00:39:03.299
evaluate your choice is good or bad, righteous or sinful?

00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:05.659
What if that framework itself needs the healing?

00:39:05.959 --> 00:39:09.519
What if the most important choice you make isn't I choose to do the right thing,

00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.779
but I choose to stop believing that I'm fundamentally wrong,

00:39:12.999 --> 00:39:14.979
that I'm broken or that something's wrong with me.

00:39:15.339 --> 00:39:19.239
Because I think that's where real change lives, not in performing better,

00:39:19.479 --> 00:39:24.079
not in confessing more or harder, not in white knuckling your way through one

00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:28.079
more day of choosing right over wrong, but in slowly.

00:39:28.699 --> 00:39:33.019
Imperfectly, stumblingly updating your operating system.

00:39:33.479 --> 00:39:38.379
Moving from I am bad to I'm actually a human being who is going through life

00:39:38.379 --> 00:39:41.999
for the very first time, who is doing my best with the programming that I was

00:39:41.999 --> 00:39:45.759
given, and I can actually look for the upgrades.

00:39:45.859 --> 00:39:49.159
I'm allowed to request healing instead of judgment.

00:39:49.479 --> 00:39:53.259
And if you're listening to this and something in you just exhaled a little bit,

00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:57.079
that is not letting you off the hook. It's not weakness.

00:39:57.419 --> 00:40:01.919
That's your nervous system recognizing something resonated, something felt a

00:40:01.919 --> 00:40:04.539
little more true. What if you never were the problem?

00:40:05.379 --> 00:40:09.759
What if you were always the person carrying the problem? And the difference

00:40:09.759 --> 00:40:12.639
between those two things? What if that's everything?

00:40:13.727 --> 00:40:17.407
Now, I need to give you a little bit of a warning here. I didn't know if this would actually fit.

00:40:17.587 --> 00:40:21.187
I had all these pieces that I thought might be interchangeable,

00:40:21.207 --> 00:40:23.447
but I need you to grab a yoga mat,

00:40:23.867 --> 00:40:28.767
maybe a clip-on ponytail for those who don't have one, maybe light some incense

00:40:28.767 --> 00:40:31.647
because I'm about to go a little zen on you, but stay with me here because I

00:40:31.647 --> 00:40:34.187
promise this is going to land, I hope.

00:40:34.807 --> 00:40:39.807
Tara Brock is a psychologist, a teacher, and she wrote a book called Radical

00:40:39.807 --> 00:40:42.447
Acceptance that I've gone back to a couple of times, and lo and behold,

00:40:42.547 --> 00:40:44.467
it's a different book each time. I don't know how people do that.

00:40:44.867 --> 00:40:48.847
That's a joke, but it changes when I am in a different headspace.

00:40:49.187 --> 00:40:53.727
There's a quote that she gives that I shared a couple of hundred episodes ago

00:40:53.727 --> 00:40:56.947
that it's interesting because it even feels different now.

00:40:57.247 --> 00:41:01.627
She draws this contrast that I think puts a nice bow on everything that we've been talking about.

00:41:01.887 --> 00:41:06.807
She talks about the concept of the Buddha's teaching that this human birth,

00:41:07.047 --> 00:41:10.427
just being here, just being alive is a gift.

00:41:10.747 --> 00:41:14.727
And it's not because you have earned it. not because you've proved yourself

00:41:14.727 --> 00:41:18.127
worthy of it, but because it is, because you were born.

00:41:18.327 --> 00:41:22.847
And it gives you now the opportunity to recognize something that was already there from the start.

00:41:23.107 --> 00:41:26.927
And I started, because this is Tara's quote from a place of Buddhism,

00:41:27.287 --> 00:41:30.607
but there's a Christian version of this too, so hang on.

00:41:30.767 --> 00:41:34.447
But that love and that awareness are your true nature.

00:41:34.907 --> 00:41:39.147
And spiritual awakening in that tradition isn't about fixing what's broken,

00:41:39.147 --> 00:41:42.347
It's about recognizing what was never actually broken in the first place.

00:41:42.487 --> 00:41:45.247
It's recognizing your essential goodness, your natural wisdom,

00:41:45.647 --> 00:41:51.487
your natural compassion that are in there and you need to experience life to unlock those things.

00:41:52.409 --> 00:41:55.889
Here's why I think this matters. And here's where I think Tara Brock's quote

00:41:55.889 --> 00:42:00.269
is something I can read over and over again, because she contrasts that view

00:42:00.269 --> 00:42:03.069
with what she calls the guiding myth of Western culture.

00:42:03.369 --> 00:42:07.049
It's just deeply baked into our psyche. And that's the story of Adam and Eve.

00:42:07.269 --> 00:42:12.509
And she says, we might forget how powerful it is because it's so familiar. It's so worn.

00:42:12.669 --> 00:42:17.289
The message of original sin, she says, is unequivocal because of our basically

00:42:17.289 --> 00:42:21.209
flawed nature, we don't deserve to be happy. We don't deserve to be loved.

00:42:21.409 --> 00:42:24.549
We don't deserve to be at ease with life because we're outcasts.

00:42:24.749 --> 00:42:28.489
And if we want to get back to the garden, now we have to redeem ourselves.

00:42:28.689 --> 00:42:32.269
We have to overcome our flaws by controlling, controlling our bodies,

00:42:32.589 --> 00:42:34.929
our emotions, our surroundings, other people.

00:42:35.349 --> 00:42:38.889
And we have to work and strive tirelessly, acquiring, consuming,

00:42:39.089 --> 00:42:43.129
achieving, overcommitting, rushing in this never-ending quest to prove ourselves

00:42:43.129 --> 00:42:44.769
once and for all that we are worthy.

00:42:45.149 --> 00:42:47.149
And I would love for you to sit with that for a second.

00:42:48.309 --> 00:42:52.129
Because what does it sound like that she just described? I think she describes

00:42:52.129 --> 00:42:56.369
the internal world of most every single person that I've sat across from in

00:42:56.369 --> 00:43:00.649
therapy, that they feel like they're just running on this treadmill or in a hamster wheel,

00:43:00.809 --> 00:43:04.909
that constant low-grade hum of, okay, I still don't feel good.

00:43:05.149 --> 00:43:08.129
Maybe it'll be after I do this thing or this thing or this thing.

00:43:08.769 --> 00:43:13.689
I'm a human doing, not a human being. The feeling that if I just work harder,

00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:16.809
if I just achieve a little bit more, if I can control myself a little better,

00:43:17.109 --> 00:43:20.669
then maybe, maybe I'll deserve to feel okay.

00:43:20.989 --> 00:43:23.809
And it's also what keeps us comparing ourselves to others.

00:43:23.849 --> 00:43:28.929
Because if I need to earn my way back somewhere, then I need to certainly make

00:43:28.929 --> 00:43:31.969
sure that I'm doing it better than somebody else, because probably the last

00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:34.069
person in line is not going to make it to the buffet.

00:43:34.269 --> 00:43:39.809
But what Brock is saying is that's not a personal failing. That's a cultural operating system.

00:43:40.089 --> 00:43:43.729
It's a myth that got installed so early and deeply that most of us don't even

00:43:43.729 --> 00:43:47.129
recognize it as a story. It just is. It's our baseline. It's.

00:43:48.350 --> 00:43:51.690
We think that's just what life is, this endless project of earning your way

00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:54.170
back from some original deficit.

00:43:54.710 --> 00:43:57.230
Now, I want to connect that back to everything that we've talked about today.

00:43:57.590 --> 00:44:01.450
Because we started with Nick Pollard's reframe I chose, which is about agency.

00:44:01.690 --> 00:44:07.850
Then we talked about the nervous system and honoring the space between activation and action.

00:44:08.050 --> 00:44:12.310
And we throw some Richard Rohr in there and he says, what if the whole sin framework

00:44:12.310 --> 00:44:16.970
might actually be the problem? and that what looks like personal moral failure

00:44:16.970 --> 00:44:22.490
is actually intergenerational trauma or brokenness and that deserves healing, not judgment.

00:44:23.332 --> 00:44:27.332
And now, Tara Brach is pulling the lens all the way back and saying,

00:44:27.492 --> 00:44:31.632
what if the deepest wound isn't even the specific thing that you did or the

00:44:31.632 --> 00:44:33.392
specific thing that was done to you?

00:44:33.772 --> 00:44:37.512
What if the very deepest wound is this belief baked into the very foundation

00:44:37.512 --> 00:44:40.272
of our culture that you are fundamentally not okay?

00:44:40.692 --> 00:44:45.192
That you arrived here already in debt, already exiled, already needing to earn

00:44:45.192 --> 00:44:47.532
your way back. Because if that's the water that you've been swimming in your

00:44:47.532 --> 00:44:52.312
entire life, and I think for most of us it is, then of course you feel like

00:44:52.312 --> 00:44:53.092
you're never doing enough.

00:44:53.332 --> 00:44:55.972
Of course, you feel shame when you fall short.

00:44:56.392 --> 00:45:00.872
Of course, you perform remorse for things that may not even require it.

00:45:01.072 --> 00:45:06.692
You've been running the original sin operating system since before you could even walk or think.

00:45:07.072 --> 00:45:10.652
And every time that somebody told you to try harder, to be better,

00:45:10.852 --> 00:45:16.192
to do more, to confess more, and to do it more sincerely, own it more fully,

00:45:16.412 --> 00:45:20.652
they didn't know it, but they weren't helping you heal. They were reinforcing the code.

00:45:21.192 --> 00:45:24.872
And what both Roar and Brock are saying from completely different traditions,

00:45:25.152 --> 00:45:30.852
one from inside Christianity, one from Buddhism, is that the code itself is actually wrong.

00:45:31.372 --> 00:45:35.492
You didn't arrive broken, you arrived whole. You had everything you need.

00:45:35.892 --> 00:45:39.492
The power of God is within you, or you were born with your Buddha nature.

00:45:39.792 --> 00:45:44.852
And the work isn't to fix yourself. The work is to slowly, gently,

00:45:44.852 --> 00:45:48.212
imperfectly stop believing the story that says you were never okay to begin

00:45:48.212 --> 00:45:49.532
with, and then you have to earn it.

00:45:49.772 --> 00:45:53.072
And I can already hear some of you thinking, okay, apparently though,

00:45:53.372 --> 00:45:55.272
does that mean that nothing is my responsibilities?

00:45:55.412 --> 00:45:58.012
I mean, I just declare myself good and I go do whatever I want.

00:45:58.132 --> 00:46:00.812
What I'm saying though is that sustainable change, real growth,

00:46:01.012 --> 00:46:04.852
genuine accountability, the kind that actually lasts and doesn't just produce

00:46:04.852 --> 00:46:08.292
these white knuckling and performance type of reactions,

00:46:09.052 --> 00:46:14.332
that kind of growth happens best when it starts from a foundation of worth,

00:46:14.592 --> 00:46:15.952
not from a foundation of deficit.

00:46:16.734 --> 00:46:21.354
You cannot hate yourself into becoming a better person. You may be able to scare

00:46:21.354 --> 00:46:23.314
yourself into real short-term compliance.

00:46:23.954 --> 00:46:28.214
You may be able to shame yourself into performing recovery for a little bit,

00:46:28.254 --> 00:46:32.854
but lasting transformation, that is going to require believing,

00:46:33.134 --> 00:46:35.394
even just a little, that you're worth the effort.

00:46:35.614 --> 00:46:38.714
And I don't need somebody else to tell me that I am.

00:46:39.014 --> 00:46:43.494
It's not because you have to earn it, but it's because you're here right now.

00:46:43.734 --> 00:46:46.974
And I want to double down for my Christian listeners, because I'm there a lot.

00:46:47.334 --> 00:46:52.434
I worry that you may be thinking what I'm describing is somehow outside of the

00:46:52.434 --> 00:46:55.174
faith, but I think it's actually at the very center of it.

00:46:55.394 --> 00:46:58.734
I did a little bit of digging. You can find this in Jesus' own words.

00:46:58.894 --> 00:47:00.674
One example, good old Luke 17.

00:47:00.974 --> 00:47:04.074
You got these Pharisees, they come to Jesus and they say, hey,

00:47:04.114 --> 00:47:07.314
when is the kingdom of God coming? Can you remind us again about this?

00:47:07.734 --> 00:47:12.654
They're expecting him to describe some grand external event with an army and

00:47:12.654 --> 00:47:15.094
a government and a pageantry, everyone will be aware.

00:47:15.294 --> 00:47:18.074
And Jesus says something that I think is so profound.

00:47:18.294 --> 00:47:21.974
He says, so the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed.

00:47:22.154 --> 00:47:24.394
People won't say, look, here it is, or there it is.

00:47:24.594 --> 00:47:27.954
And then depending on your translation, both the ones I found are pretty good.

00:47:28.094 --> 00:47:31.154
He says, either the kingdom of God is actually within you.

00:47:31.514 --> 00:47:34.614
Well, that sounds a little bit similar to our Buddhist friends who say that

00:47:34.614 --> 00:47:37.554
you have everything you need. It's already there.

00:47:38.254 --> 00:47:41.594
Or another translation says, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

00:47:42.194 --> 00:47:47.214
And yes, scholars have debated that translation for centuries within you,

00:47:47.434 --> 00:47:48.914
among you, in your midst.

00:47:49.646 --> 00:47:56.726
To me, either way, what Jesus is not saying is the kingdom of God is out there

00:47:56.726 --> 00:47:58.906
somewhere and you have to earn your way back.

00:47:59.366 --> 00:48:02.126
He's saying, oh, it is here. It's in you.

00:48:02.306 --> 00:48:06.266
It's not a destination you arrive at after enough confession and penance and

00:48:06.266 --> 00:48:08.166
performative events to prove yourself.

00:48:08.486 --> 00:48:12.046
It's a reality that's already present if you have the eyes to see it.

00:48:12.206 --> 00:48:14.486
And I think that's just one example. I could take you through Paul's letters

00:48:14.486 --> 00:48:18.446
or the Psalms or Jesus sitting at the table with tax collectors and sinners

00:48:18.446 --> 00:48:21.906
telling the Pharisees that he desires mercy, not even necessarily sacrifice.

00:48:22.386 --> 00:48:26.106
There's thread after thread after thread in scripture that points to inherent

00:48:26.106 --> 00:48:29.566
worth, to the divine already dwelling within you, to healing over judgment.

00:48:29.926 --> 00:48:33.206
And if that's a rabbit hole that you want to go down, oh, I encourage it.

00:48:33.566 --> 00:48:36.526
Go down it. Because I think what you'll find might surprise you.

00:48:36.686 --> 00:48:41.306
I think you'll find that the person that your faith is named after was far more

00:48:41.306 --> 00:48:43.766
interested in compassion than keeping the score.

00:48:44.146 --> 00:48:48.766
Far more interested in letting everyone eat at the table than kicking people out of the room.

00:48:49.206 --> 00:48:52.006
So, whether you're hearing this from Richard Rohr's perspective inside of the

00:48:52.006 --> 00:48:55.906
Christian tradition, or from Brock's Buddhist lens, or even the ACT framework

00:48:55.906 --> 00:48:59.666
that I'm bringing to my clinical work, or from the very words of Jesus himself,

00:48:59.946 --> 00:49:01.246
I think the thread's the same.

00:49:01.426 --> 00:49:04.826
The invitation isn't to try harder, it isn't to confess more,

00:49:05.066 --> 00:49:09.186
it isn't to earn your way back from some big deficit, and it's not to say to

00:49:09.186 --> 00:49:10.906
someone else, tell me when I am okay.

00:49:11.720 --> 00:49:15.020
The invitation is to stop believing the story that says you were never enough to begin with.

00:49:17.080 --> 00:49:20.240
Deep breath. Okay. So what did we learn today?

00:49:20.420 --> 00:49:22.960
Let's bring this all the way back to where we started because a listener sent

00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:26.200
me an email and he told me that his wife had a bet about whether I'd agree with

00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:28.600
a video from Nick Pollard about triggers and choice.

00:49:29.020 --> 00:49:31.780
And he said he thought we'd be on the same page. And his wife thought that I

00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:34.440
would break it into a million pieces so that she could wiggle her way out of

00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:35.260
whether or not they agreed.

00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:37.980
And I forget now who even had to pay who and what.

00:49:38.460 --> 00:49:41.840
And I love that. I love that because that's exactly how this works.

00:49:42.240 --> 00:49:45.160
Somebody sends me a question. I sit with it. It becomes my muse.

00:49:45.300 --> 00:49:48.300
Best word I can think of. It becomes the thing that I turn over and over in my head.

00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:51.720
And then one idea will connect to another. And before you know it,

00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:56.400
we've gone from a video about triggers to childhood shame, to a Franciscan priest,

00:49:56.680 --> 00:50:01.620
to the Buddha, to Tara Brach, to the words of Jesus at dinner with a bunch of outcasts.

00:50:02.140 --> 00:50:06.340
And I did not plan all of that to go down. I didn't sit down and think,

00:50:06.500 --> 00:50:09.180
I think today I'll connect Nick Pollard to the book of Matthew.

00:50:09.820 --> 00:50:12.920
But that's what happens when you follow a thread honestly and

00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:16.560
you're not doing it wrong it takes you somewhere and here's

00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:21.040
what I know about right now about this moment some of you are going to walk

00:50:21.040 --> 00:50:24.800
away from this episode and it's going to land exactly the way you needed it

00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:28.460
to something here is going to give you permission to set down a weight you've

00:50:28.460 --> 00:50:31.640
been carrying for a long time and you might not even be able to name that weight

00:50:31.640 --> 00:50:36.400
yet but something's gonna feel a little lighter and I really hope that for you I do.

00:50:37.116 --> 00:50:39.356
Some of you are going to go in a completely different direction with it.

00:50:39.436 --> 00:50:41.936
You're going to hear what I said about sin and think I've gone off the deep end.

00:50:42.056 --> 00:50:44.456
You're going to hear the quotes around Tara Brock's section and think,

00:50:44.976 --> 00:50:46.776
okay, he's lost his Christian listeners.

00:50:46.816 --> 00:50:49.176
Or you're going to hear the scripture section and think, oh,

00:50:49.296 --> 00:50:51.296
he's cherry picking verses to support his agenda.

00:50:51.556 --> 00:50:55.016
And some of you are going to make assumptions about what I believe or what I

00:50:55.016 --> 00:50:56.276
meant or what my intentions are.

00:50:56.576 --> 00:51:01.516
And those assumptions are going to tell you more about your own mirror than they tell you about me.

00:51:02.016 --> 00:51:05.336
And that's okay. And I mean that. There's no sarcasm there.

00:51:05.816 --> 00:51:09.856
That is genuinely wonderful because that's exactly what's supposed to happen.

00:51:10.016 --> 00:51:11.216
That's part of the human experience.

00:51:11.636 --> 00:51:13.936
That's the whole point of putting something out into the world.

00:51:14.096 --> 00:51:15.776
You don't get to control how it lands.

00:51:16.376 --> 00:51:20.176
You can't manage every interpretation. And sometimes that's scary.

00:51:20.656 --> 00:51:24.896
And it's the same within your relationship with your partner, with your kids.

00:51:25.376 --> 00:51:28.456
You offer it and then people do with it what they're going to do with it.

00:51:28.556 --> 00:51:31.056
And some of them will love it and some of them will hate it.

00:51:31.316 --> 00:51:35.016
And most of them will take a little piece of it that was meant for them and leave the rest.

00:51:35.496 --> 00:51:39.296
And that's the way it works. And I'll be honest, I'm at a place in my career

00:51:39.296 --> 00:51:42.976
that I'm very grateful for where I'm okay with that.

00:51:43.256 --> 00:51:46.796
I've sat across thousands of people now and I've heard stories that would break

00:51:46.796 --> 00:51:49.196
your heart and ones that would restore your faith in humanity,

00:51:49.516 --> 00:51:51.736
sometimes in the same session from the same person.

00:51:51.956 --> 00:51:55.756
And one of the things I've learned from all of it is that the things worth saying

00:51:55.756 --> 00:51:58.396
are usually the things that make you a little nervous to say.

00:51:58.476 --> 00:52:02.616
Because I know that talking about sin and shame and scripture and Buddhism and

00:52:02.616 --> 00:52:06.856
triggers and betrayal all in the same episode is going to push some buttons.

00:52:07.056 --> 00:52:10.456
And I also know that somewhere out there, someone needed to hear exactly this

00:52:10.456 --> 00:52:12.396
combination of ideas, maybe even in this order.

00:52:12.496 --> 00:52:16.876
And if that's you, then this episode was for you. So to the listener who sent

00:52:16.876 --> 00:52:19.696
the email, thank you. I don't know if you won or lost.

00:52:20.236 --> 00:52:24.156
Thanks for the question. Thanks for the bet with your wife. And I hope you feel

00:52:24.156 --> 00:52:26.836
like you both won something today, even if it wasn't what you expected to win,

00:52:26.936 --> 00:52:28.836
because your question didn't just get answered.

00:52:28.936 --> 00:52:31.796
It became the seed that grew into something I didn't see coming and that's beautiful.

00:52:32.795 --> 00:52:35.955
And everybody else, I am definitely one of those people who wants to put things

00:52:35.955 --> 00:52:37.735
out into the universe and hopes that it might do a little good.

00:52:37.915 --> 00:52:39.535
That's it. That's the whole mission statement.

00:52:39.795 --> 00:52:43.575
Yeah, sure. Click on things and buy things if I'm offering them. That'd be great.

00:52:44.215 --> 00:52:46.975
But I definitely don't think I have all the answers and I'm not trying to tell you what to believe.

00:52:46.995 --> 00:52:50.635
I'm just a therapist with a microphone and a bag of Ghirardelli caramels who

00:52:50.635 --> 00:52:53.935
followed up a thought and then ended up somewhere here.

00:52:54.375 --> 00:52:57.735
If any part of this episode gave you even one moment of feeling like maybe just

00:52:57.735 --> 00:53:01.615
maybe you aren't as broken as you thought you were, then I think we did the job.

00:53:02.035 --> 00:53:04.735
Taking us out per usual. The wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her

00:53:04.735 --> 00:53:09.115
song. It's wonderful because I genuinely think it is whatever it is, fill in the blank.

00:53:09.455 --> 00:53:10.555
I hope you have an amazing week.

00:53:10.575 --> 00:53:13.495
We'll see you next time on the virtual couch and waking up next week.