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Welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch. I am your host,

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Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful

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habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father, four, and host of the Waking

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Up to Narcissim podcast as well.

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Follow me on social media platforms of your choice at TikTok at Virtual Couch,

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Instagram at virtual.couch, Facebook, Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family

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therapist, sub stack where there's a lot of content.

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It's the old fashioned way. You

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can read it. You don't even have to watch anything or listen to anything.

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And there are articles of all sorts of

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lengths and it's usually about the podcast that has

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come out that week or maybe some other things as well and that's substack.com

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slash the virtual couch i believe but i'm sure you can find it if you give it

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a good search and my magnetic marriage course the waiting period is now on you

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can go get on the wait list at tonyoverbay.com slash magnetic and we will probably

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talk a little bit more about that today some of the concepts that i'm going to get to eventually.

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Today is a fun topic. It is based on a little bit of an aha that I had at a

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men's retreat that I was participating in as a presenter with my good friend,

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Craig Para, who is founder of The Mindful Habit.

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When I talk about in my opening that I'm a mindful habit coach,

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that's where that comes from. He's an amazing person with his wife, Michelle.

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I was participating in this men's retreat and I was talking about four pillars

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of a connected conversation. I was talking about providing safety in the relationship.

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And there was a guy who, and at this point we were about two or three days in,

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I really appreciated and loved

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the guys that were there that were participating in the men's retreat.

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And that's important because of what he said. I really believe what he said

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wasn't done from a place of manipulation or emotional immaturity.

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He said that his wife had opened up to him about feeling overwhelmed.

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And she had talked about carrying a very large mental load.

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And as she was telling him this, he said he had this realization.

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He was very genuine as he was expressing this to myself and to the other group of men.

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He said, wait, I realize I also carry a big mental load as well.

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So right after she had expressed that, he told her that he also carried a big mental load.

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So he thought it was going to be this moment of connection. Hey,

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me too. And it turns out that we're in this together. And I did ask him with

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a little bit of humor already loaded.

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How'd that go? And then maybe not surprisingly, it did not go very well.

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It is tricky because I see this often and I think it's safe to say on a daily basis.

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Now, to be fair, from his side, he wasn't even thinking about his own experience

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of carrying a mental load because he hadn't really thought of it that way until she brought it up.

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And she was coming to him wanting to be understood.

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And then the very words that she spoke in hopes of having him understand her,

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it's this emotional bid that she was making.

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She's handing her heart out to him. It was this moment, I'm fairly confident,

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without even meeting with her, where she wanted to be known.

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She wanted to be understood. she was choosing him to be the one to know her.

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But then it was those very words that she uttered that when taken in through his ear holes,

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traveling instantaneously to his brain, generated a flurry of electrical activity

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that then caused him to utter some mouth sounds,

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these combination of words that give him the language for something that he

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had not been able to name before.

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He realized in that very moment that he too was carrying a very big mental load.

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Now, to be fair, most likely he also had a very brief moment of suppressing

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an inappropriate joke around the words mental load because he is a male.

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But one could argue that his intent was genuine and he really had not identified

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what it was that he had felt often until she was expressing her feelings, until she went first.

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And in talking to this guy, I would put my 20 plus years of couples therapy

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on the table to say that he was genuinely confused as he shared the story as

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to why she didn't immediately respond to him with.

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Hang on, I know that I just poured my heart out to you in an attempt to be heard,

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but I'll be darned if the fact that you just immediately repeated to me the

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exact same words that I just said that I was feeling.

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Now I would really appreciate you taking the floor and I would actually love

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to hear you wax philosophic for, I don't know, maybe the next half an hour of what this means to you.

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And if you don't mind, I think I would actually now love for you to bring up

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a lot of things from the past that you think I haven't done well,

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because I think this exchange we're having right now, I think this might be

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the key to me praising you more, initiating intimacy more.

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Honestly, I actually think I'd like to hear some more of your high school football

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stories while we're at it.

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No, she actually did not feel connected in that moment.

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One could actually say that the impact on her was the exact opposite,

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completely different, because to her, she had just opened a door.

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She was being vulnerable. And before she even got to feel heard,

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the conversation was already about him.

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So even though he meant connection, what she experienced was dismissal.

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And it's that gap between intent and impact.

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That's where so much of the damage happens in relationships.

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And sometimes what's happening in that gap is something so subtle, but it's very powerful.

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And it isn't necessarily someone being cruel. It isn't even necessarily someone

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trying to dominate or assert their power.

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It's not even always defensiveness, but it's this moment where somebody opens

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up and before their share has fully had a chance to stick, to land,

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the conversation shifts, the momentum changes, the focus moves.

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It's almost like the original share gets edged out of its own space.

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Now, we're going to come back to that dynamic later because I actually had a

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couple name it in a way that I think is perfect.

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But for now, just hold on to that idea that sometimes the damage isn't what was said.

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It's what that person didn't even get to finish when they were really trying

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to be heard and to be understood.

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And I want to be super honest. If this was my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,

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I know that there's a version of this that I call the attack surface.

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Because to the emotionally immature or the person with

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narcissistic traits states tendencies up to full-blown narcissistic

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personality disorder i like to say that they just

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simply need another person to interact with to essentially know

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that they exist and so what that looks like in real

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time is that anytime and i'm being pretty intentional about the all or nothing

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vibe of that statement anytime anytime the more pathologically kind spouse and

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again if you're not familiar with that concept or that term or you're not waking

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up to narcissism listener that I find that often it is that pathologically kind person.

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Kindness is a wonderful thing. It becomes pathological when it's used against

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them, when it's used to their detriment.

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And that pathologically kind

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partner often finds themselves with the more emotionally immature partner.

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The author Ross Rosenberg calls that combination the human magnet syndrome.

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And it's breakup resistant and it's breakup resistant.

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And I'm talking about the negative version of that because that pathologically

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kind person will most likely continue to offer up themselves,

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self-sacrifice for the good of the relationship. And then the emotionally immature

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person doesn't even know what they don't know.

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And so they often think that the relationship is good because their pathologically

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kind partner has sacrificed their opinion, their behavior, their thoughts,

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their feelings, their emotions.

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And they think that they're doing that for the good of the relationship,

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but it just furthers and deepens this dynamic.

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This pursue or withdraw, this, okay, I'll deal with it later,

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this big old can kicking down the road.

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But that pathologically kind spouse will then offer up their thoughts,

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their opinions, their questions, their concerns, and then it becomes a surface

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that can be attacked with the goal.

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And I do think most of it is subconscious

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of the emotionally immature narcissistic partner to now put that.

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Person in the one down position and give them the one up position.

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So if that pathologically kind spouse says, you know, I'm thinking about getting

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a new pair of running shoes.

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The answer isn't, oh, what kind are you thinking about getting?

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Or how do you even determine when you swap out your shoes? Because I'm genuinely curious.

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I know for me, it's about every 500 miles. I read that in a runner's world magazine,

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but how about you? Or are you thinking about signing up for a new race?

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Is that why you want a new pair of shoes? Because you want to have them broken

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in? You noticing any aches or pains that might indicate maybe uneven wear and tear on your shoes?

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As a matter of fact, I love that you're sharing this with me because I want to know you.

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No, that's the healthy version. In the world of the emotionally immature slash

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narcissistic partner, the answers would be more like, oh, that must be nice

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to get a new pair of shoes whenever the heck you want.

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Wish I could be that frivolous and spend our money like that.

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Or if the person happens to be the primary breadwinner, okay,

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I guess that's okay, but a little appreciation would be nice.

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Or I don't see you exercising regularly and I can't promise that I'm actually

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not going to be mad if I don't see you doing that, if you're going to spend my money on your shoes.

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Or, okay, if you're going to do that, then I think you owe me two back rubs

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and you have to initiate intimacy for a month.

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Or there could also be what a client of mine once called, and I think it's so

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apropos of being nothing, where maybe he just doesn't say anything at all.

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And she just wanted connection of any kind, to which then she might even follow

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up and say, I don't know if you, did you hear me say that? And then he said, yeah, I heard you.

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Do you need a round of applause or do you want me to ring a little bell?

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Do you need a trophy or something? What do you want me to say?

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Unfortunately, I deal with a lot of those types of responses and couples therapy

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as well. So back to this example.

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Now, I had a couple in my office just a week or so ago, and I was sharing this

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experience about the men's retreat with them, and we were having a really,

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really good conversation.

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So I was sharing with the couple that I wasn't saying that the guy needed to

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necessarily shove his thoughts down or his emotions or his reactions.

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They didn't need to be suppressed necessarily.

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But I said that I was noticing that if something comes up for you when your

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partner is sharing, that is real.

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And I understand that can be a place coming from good intentions that matters.

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But maybe it's more about the order or structure of the conversation or more

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about the sequencing of the conversation. It's about when you bring up your

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piece, because in that moment, she was the one being vulnerable.

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She was the one who opened the door. She had the talking stick,

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the floor, so to speak, and the floor was not yet open for questions.

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What she needed first was space, runway to share.

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And hopefully some genuine curiosity about her experience, some emotional safety.

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So what I suggested to the guys at the retreat was, you know,

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if your partner opens up and it does trigger something in you,

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some recognition, some, oh my gosh, I feel that too.

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That's a good thing. Make a mental note of it.

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Hold it gently. But that moment isn't yours yet.

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Stay with your partner first. Even something as simple as, man,

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tell me more about that. Even while internally you're thinking, I feel this too.

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I need to say this. But if I can stay with that, tell me more changes the whole

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trajectory of that moment and know that you can come back to your experience

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later and it will most likely even land better because your partner will not

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have the capacity to hear you once they felt heard themselves.

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And if you immediately are saying, well, yeah, but yeah, but I might forget.

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That's absolutely true. And I would like to encourage a little bit of a reframe.

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The relationship is more of the long game. Not if I don't say this right now,

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then the world will stop spinning immediately.

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We will all die and no offense, but whatever it is that just came up in your

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mind when you heard your partner say something for the first time is also not

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going to be the combination of words and mouth noises and facial expressions

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that will erase decades of marital strife in an instant right now.

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So your work is to stay engaged and present in the conversation as the listener.

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So then I went on to share with this couple that what's been pretty wild is

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since that retreat, I do a lot of couple sessions each week and I keep seeing

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this exact dynamic play out.

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And I know it's most likely a little confirmation bias, but it almost seems

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like I've found the origin story of so many reactive moments in relationships

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where somebody tries to share something and immediately feel shut down.

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So over time, they stop trying to be heard.

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Somebody tries to open up and their partner's brain immediately goes,

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oh, that reminds me of something that I'm feeling too.

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And then the share gets hijacked before it even lands. I mentioned to them that

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I'm trying to come up with a name for it.

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And I went and pulled the transcript from the session. The husband then said

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immediately, stealing thunder.

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That's what it is, right? That person is thunder stealing. They're stealing your thunder.

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And then I said, oh, I love that. Stealing thunder. That is,

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that's exactly what it feels like, isn't it?

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Like you're mid-share, you're putting something out there and then somebody

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rolls in with their version before yours even gets to land. And I said,

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yeah, I think that's the name.

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Thank you. I've been trying to find the right words for it and that nails it.

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And then the guy said, yeah, thunder stealing. It really does make sense because

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they're starting to steal your momentum. They're starting to.

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And then the wife cut in and she said, I don't necessarily think it's stealing

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thunder. I don't think so.

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But I mean, I could see why it could come across that way, like you were saying.

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But what I think, and then as she was trying to think of what to say next, there was a pause.

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And then the guy said, oh, but...

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So that's actually it. Like she literally just stole my thunder right there.

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I named the thing and she just, and then I cut in and said, wait, hold on.

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Yeah, that happened in real time. And then I, now that you'll know,

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I don't just say these things on the podcast. I said, isn't that meta?

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Is that what the kids would say?

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And then they both had a little chuckle.

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And then I looked over at the wife and I said, hey, so I would love to just

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take a second and name what just happened.

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And I want to be real careful because I worry that you may think that I am telling

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you that you've done something wrong. But here's what I saw.

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Your husband offered a name for this concept, stealing thunder.

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And then pretty much immediately you had a reaction, a thought.

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And so what he offered up, it was somewhat negated, reframed.

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The edges got taken off before I had a chance to just sit there for a second.

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And I don't think you were trying to dismiss him.

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My guess is your brain just did what brains do. You heard the concept and it

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immediately caused you to think of something and And you started refining it,

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making sense of it in your own way.

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But the effect on your husband's end is that the thing that he just named got

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adjusted before it got to essentially breathe, which communicating to him that

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what he shared was wrong and it wasn't even worth further exploration.

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And that's the whole phenomenon that we're talking about playing out right here

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in front of us in real time.

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And thank goodness she had a little bit of a laugh and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

00:14:41.767 --> 00:14:45.627
And I, oh no, I said, honestly, this is kind of a gift because we didn't have

00:14:45.627 --> 00:14:49.507
to construct an example or pull something from our memory. We just watched it.

00:14:49.747 --> 00:14:53.407
That's rare. And it means, I think that you're both going to be able to spot

00:14:53.407 --> 00:14:57.367
this so much more easily now because you just saw it. You felt it.

00:14:57.707 --> 00:15:00.667
You didn't just hear about it. And then the husband said, and honestly,

00:15:00.967 --> 00:15:04.047
yeah, Stealing Thunder, I think is the right name for it because I've been in

00:15:04.047 --> 00:15:08.687
that position over and over. and then I did the therapist standard. Tell me more about that.

00:15:08.967 --> 00:15:12.847
And he said, the vast majority of the time, it seems like when I bring something

00:15:12.847 --> 00:15:16.747
up, a grievance, something that's bothering me, by the end of the time I'm expressing

00:15:16.747 --> 00:15:19.107
it, I'm actually the one that's apologizing.

00:15:19.347 --> 00:15:23.487
And I said, okay, hold on, say that again. So you come in with something that's bothering you.

00:15:23.607 --> 00:15:27.427
And by the end of the conversation, you think that you're the one saying, sorry.

00:15:27.847 --> 00:15:31.907
And he said, yeah, yeah, because it goes like this. I say, it's how I feel.

00:15:32.327 --> 00:15:35.987
And it gets met with, yeah, me too. Actually, let me tell you why mine is worse.

00:15:36.327 --> 00:15:38.787
And then he said, and suddenly I'm defending myself instead of being heard.

00:15:38.947 --> 00:15:42.527
And then I eventually just fold and apologize just to make it stop,

00:15:42.727 --> 00:15:44.047
to move on through the conversation.

00:15:44.427 --> 00:15:47.787
So I pointed out, that's a pretty significant pattern. And I want to make sure

00:15:47.787 --> 00:15:50.907
that that gets the space, the acknowledgement that it deserves,

00:15:50.947 --> 00:15:54.447
because it sounds like what you're describing, you start out as the person with

00:15:54.447 --> 00:15:57.087
the grievance, and by the end, you become the person managing your partner's

00:15:57.087 --> 00:15:59.307
reaction to your grievance. That's a big shift.

00:15:59.627 --> 00:16:03.567
And I'm wondering if over time, if that teaches the brain that bringing things

00:16:03.567 --> 00:16:07.207
up isn't safe and that it's going to cost you more than it's worth.

00:16:07.507 --> 00:16:10.007
I said, we'll come back to this. And he said, yeah, that's what's happening.

00:16:10.147 --> 00:16:12.627
So I turned to the wife and I said, hey, I would love to check in with you.

00:16:13.347 --> 00:16:17.407
I'm curious when I pointed that out, the stealing thunder about stealing thunder

00:16:17.407 --> 00:16:21.387
moment, what did that feel like? Did you think that I was criticizing you?

00:16:21.847 --> 00:16:25.607
And she said, no, honestly, maybe a little bit. Maybe I felt that a little bit,

00:16:25.747 --> 00:16:29.007
but I also, I recognized it as well. I actually.

00:16:29.946 --> 00:16:32.826
I think I saw it while it was happening, but I was already too far down that

00:16:32.826 --> 00:16:35.126
path. And I said, man, I appreciate you telling me that.

00:16:35.626 --> 00:16:37.866
And then I turned to the husband. And again, I've worked with him for a while.

00:16:38.086 --> 00:16:39.966
So there's a lot of potential for humor here.

00:16:40.046 --> 00:16:42.906
And I said, are you buying that? Are you picking up what she's putting down?

00:16:43.166 --> 00:16:44.706
And he's like, I am. I really am.

00:16:45.246 --> 00:16:48.286
And then I made sure that they knew that that was, for the record,

00:16:48.406 --> 00:16:53.366
that was me being hilarious because that was not very differentiated of me saying,

00:16:53.526 --> 00:16:55.046
really? Are you sure? You're really sure?

00:16:55.786 --> 00:16:59.026
And then we just had a laugh. that concept of stealing thunder's

00:16:59.026 --> 00:17:01.766
origin story was then stole in the moment

00:17:01.766 --> 00:17:04.986
so what i shared with them was moving forward i would love that

00:17:04.986 --> 00:17:07.786
when one of them shares something a feeling a frustration whatever that

00:17:07.786 --> 00:17:11.426
is the other one feels that me too impulse rise up or that urge to refine and

00:17:11.426 --> 00:17:15.066
adjust what your partner just said see if you can catch it just notice that

00:17:15.066 --> 00:17:19.266
you can name it internally there's the thunder grab and then try to stay curious

00:17:19.266 --> 00:17:22.526
about what your partner's saying jump back into the present moment for even

00:17:22.526 --> 00:17:26.226
just a little bit longer before you try to bring your piece in.

00:17:26.666 --> 00:17:29.726
Your experience still matters and it's going to get airtime.

00:17:29.906 --> 00:17:32.806
We have to trust that, but let theirs land first.

00:17:33.106 --> 00:17:37.686
And they both said that sounded good because it really felt like they were well

00:17:37.686 --> 00:17:41.666
positioned to work with that because they demonstrated they could see it in the very moment.

00:17:41.826 --> 00:17:44.366
So here's what I find fascinating to me about that whole dynamic,

00:17:44.366 --> 00:17:48.506
that neither one of them in the room wasn't trying to hurt the other person.

00:17:48.606 --> 00:17:49.866
The husband wasn't trying to dominate.

00:17:50.086 --> 00:17:53.146
The wife wasn't really trying to make him feel bad or dismiss him.

00:17:53.146 --> 00:17:55.966
And just like the guy at the men's retreat

00:17:55.966 --> 00:17:58.666
wasn't trying to hijack his wife's moment and in

00:17:58.666 --> 00:18:04.206
fact in these examples the intent was connection but the impact was disconnection

00:18:04.206 --> 00:18:09.146
the gap between intent and impact i think is where so many relationships start

00:18:09.146 --> 00:18:16.746
to erode because what looks like me too on the inside lands more like not you on the outside but.

00:18:17.514 --> 00:18:19.834
Here's where that gets even trickier, because most of the time when this happens,

00:18:19.954 --> 00:18:24.814
the person who just derailed the moment would swear under oath that they were being empathetic.

00:18:24.934 --> 00:18:26.934
No, I was relating. I was trying to connect.

00:18:27.334 --> 00:18:30.974
I want to share my emotions too. I was showing her that I understood.

00:18:31.614 --> 00:18:34.254
But what often happens instead isn't empathy.

00:18:34.954 --> 00:18:40.174
And for a while, I was calling it drive-by empathy or check-the-box empathy.

00:18:40.894 --> 00:18:44.454
And if you've ever been on the receiving end of it, I think you know exactly what I mean.

00:18:45.174 --> 00:18:49.494
Let me paint another picture. Imagine your partner comes home and they are overwhelmed.

00:18:49.714 --> 00:18:51.274
They are raw. They're vulnerable.

00:18:51.674 --> 00:18:55.754
And instead of listening, they say, okay, before we talk, I really need you

00:18:55.754 --> 00:18:58.194
to do something for me. Can you follow me into the kitchen?

00:18:58.354 --> 00:19:02.394
And can you just, can you go put your hand on the hot stove? Let me turn it on first.

00:19:02.854 --> 00:19:07.434
You hesitate. And they're like, seriously, if you really want to try to understand

00:19:07.434 --> 00:19:11.314
me, if you want to empathize with me, you need to try to feel what I'm feeling.

00:19:11.334 --> 00:19:13.994
So I would really appreciate it if you could go touch the stove.

00:19:14.414 --> 00:19:19.034
So you're thinking I okay, I don't know what I don't know seems kind of crazy So let's say you do.

00:19:19.981 --> 00:19:22.841
And, but you just tap it real fast and then you jerk your hand back.

00:19:22.921 --> 00:19:26.521
Okay, it's hot. I get it. Burns. We good. And now your hand hurts too.

00:19:27.281 --> 00:19:30.601
That's almost what drive by empathy can feel like. It's not staying.

00:19:30.741 --> 00:19:31.481
It's not understanding.

00:19:31.681 --> 00:19:34.781
It's just a brief sample of someone's pain and then announcing,

00:19:34.921 --> 00:19:37.001
okay, no, I get it. I've experienced it.

00:19:37.441 --> 00:19:42.041
Can we move on? And the person who is vulnerable, they're still standing there alone.

00:19:42.221 --> 00:19:46.341
And then the more you sit with that, your hand hurts and you're wondering why

00:19:46.341 --> 00:19:47.501
on earth did I have to do that?

00:19:48.161 --> 00:19:51.461
Was that some sort of, I don't know, sadistic ritual to prove my love?

00:19:51.461 --> 00:19:54.981
It feels more like the start of some bad Netflix movie, not a way to connect.

00:19:55.381 --> 00:19:59.121
And I think sometimes that's what empathy turns into, not connection,

00:19:59.341 --> 00:20:05.041
but shared suffering more with now a side of resentment. Because I often hear

00:20:05.041 --> 00:20:08.121
stories from people that are genuinely trying to empathize with their partner.

00:20:08.441 --> 00:20:13.181
We start from a place of most likely they never saw that modeled in their childhood.

00:20:13.421 --> 00:20:16.561
They're desperately trying to understand this concept because they may hear

00:20:16.561 --> 00:20:21.121
it often. Well, you have no empathy. And this is why I think your empathy isn't landing.

00:20:21.321 --> 00:20:24.941
And I can maybe even hear people say, hang on though. I think I've got it down.

00:20:25.041 --> 00:20:28.721
I am empathetic. I literally just told my partner that I understood, period.

00:20:28.981 --> 00:20:31.941
I said the thing, I checked the box. So why are they still upset?

00:20:32.101 --> 00:20:35.941
And if that's you or you're anywhere in that ballpark, this episode is for you.

00:20:36.361 --> 00:20:41.721
Because what I have learned now sitting across couples for decades,

00:20:41.781 --> 00:20:47.341
I can say now, and well over 1,500 couples, most people do at some point think

00:20:47.341 --> 00:20:48.121
they're being empathetic.

00:20:48.896 --> 00:20:51.976
When they're actually doing something else entirely.

00:20:52.616 --> 00:20:57.236
Something that feels like empathy on the inside, but lands more like a dismissal on the outside.

00:20:57.316 --> 00:21:00.356
And that gap between what you're doing and what your partner actually experiences,

00:21:00.996 --> 00:21:02.736
that's where the relationship pain lives.

00:21:03.276 --> 00:21:05.776
So let's take a step back. Let's start at the very beginning.

00:21:05.996 --> 00:21:07.356
Apparently a very good place to start.

00:21:07.576 --> 00:21:11.596
And I'll be honest, there was a time I genuinely confused empathy and sympathy.

00:21:11.836 --> 00:21:16.996
And it was absolutely a time when I was a practicing therapist.

00:21:17.536 --> 00:21:21.696
It's very brave of me, very vulnerable to say that. And I often find it very

00:21:21.696 --> 00:21:26.636
courageous when adult humans in my office will have the courage to say,

00:21:26.876 --> 00:21:28.776
I actually don't even really understand the difference.

00:21:29.096 --> 00:21:34.136
But simply stated, sympathy, I hate that. That sounds difficult. That must be hard.

00:21:34.636 --> 00:21:39.616
Empathy, help me understand what that's like for you. So an example of sympathy,

00:21:39.896 --> 00:21:42.496
your partner says, man, I bombed my presentation.

00:21:42.976 --> 00:21:46.496
The sympathetic response, oh man, that sounds rough. I'm sure you'll do better next time.

00:21:46.996 --> 00:21:52.996
And even that, as good as it sounds, there's a deep dive that is needed.

00:21:53.256 --> 00:21:56.156
Oh, man, that's rough. That is sympathetic.

00:21:57.277 --> 00:22:00.517
I put the next sentence in there because I think it's one of these things that

00:22:00.517 --> 00:22:04.957
can naturally flow when somebody thinks that they are being empathetic,

00:22:05.057 --> 00:22:08.237
but they're really being sympathetic and so, oh man, that's rough.

00:22:08.357 --> 00:22:09.057
You'll do better next time.

00:22:09.197 --> 00:22:12.737
Now, technically, again, sympathetic checks the box. The words are kind.

00:22:12.937 --> 00:22:15.997
The tone might be warm. You're making the right mouth sounds.

00:22:16.177 --> 00:22:19.637
And I use that phrase very intentionally, mouth sounds, because from a co-regulation

00:22:19.637 --> 00:22:21.037
standpoint, tone matters.

00:22:21.497 --> 00:22:25.417
We know from interpersonal neurobiology, this work of Dan Siegel,

00:22:25.417 --> 00:22:30.897
that the nervous system responds to vocal warmth, to the rise and fall of someone's voice.

00:22:31.117 --> 00:22:34.357
So yeah, those sounds can be registered as kind.

00:22:34.837 --> 00:22:39.917
But here's the part we don't talk about. Sometimes sympathy isn't about them at all. It's about us.

00:22:40.297 --> 00:22:44.157
When I say you'll do better next time, there's a subtle relief that happens

00:22:44.157 --> 00:22:47.957
inside of me. I have moved away from discomfort. I have wrapped it up. I have made it hopeful.

00:22:48.197 --> 00:22:50.417
I have tied it in a bow. And honestly, I feel good.

00:22:50.697 --> 00:22:53.137
But imagine you're the one who just bombed the presentation.

00:22:53.357 --> 00:22:55.937
You've been replaying the game film in your head a dozen times over,

00:22:56.317 --> 00:23:01.157
you're dissecting every slide, every awkward pause, you're insinuating things, making up stories.

00:23:01.337 --> 00:23:03.977
You're wondering if your ideas now, maybe they aren't even good enough.

00:23:04.037 --> 00:23:07.737
And the response you'll get is, hey, champ, you'll do better next time.

00:23:09.070 --> 00:23:12.950
Now you're in this weird position where you now almost feel required to make

00:23:12.950 --> 00:23:18.330
the correct returned mouth sounds of, okay, thanks. I appreciate that.

00:23:18.870 --> 00:23:22.530
I'm sure I will. But inside you feel completely unseen.

00:23:22.890 --> 00:23:27.470
It's almost like the other person has this magical superpower that all you have

00:23:27.470 --> 00:23:31.950
to do is tell them your problem and they wave a wand and say, it'll be okay.

00:23:32.330 --> 00:23:35.870
And suddenly your entire breakdown of your own game film, it was absolutely

00:23:35.870 --> 00:23:38.350
unnecessary. Apparently you just needed their optimism.

00:23:39.290 --> 00:23:42.990
Oh, my bad. I did not realize the solution was simply believing harder.

00:23:43.370 --> 00:23:47.570
And here's the dangerous part that if you don't do better next time, then what?

00:23:47.850 --> 00:23:50.790
Now it subtly becomes your fault because maybe you didn't listen.

00:23:51.070 --> 00:23:52.190
Maybe you didn't believe in yourself.

00:23:52.630 --> 00:23:56.350
Maybe you didn't try hard enough. So why would you open up again?

00:23:57.130 --> 00:24:01.650
Why risk vulnerability if the outcome is either dismissal or the silent pressure?

00:24:01.970 --> 00:24:05.830
Now let's talk about empathy. Oh man, you bombed it.

00:24:06.190 --> 00:24:09.370
Bombed it how? Tell me about that. What was that like? What did that feel like?

00:24:09.570 --> 00:24:12.590
Take me through it. I want to understand. I want to hear it all.

00:24:13.290 --> 00:24:17.810
Empathy moves toward experience, while sympathy acknowledges it from a safe distance.

00:24:18.712 --> 00:24:22.352
It's like sympathy kind of stands on the shore and waves.

00:24:23.472 --> 00:24:26.592
Empathy, we're rolling up our pant legs and we're getting in the water.

00:24:26.992 --> 00:24:30.872
But not to drown with you, but I want to be near you.

00:24:31.092 --> 00:24:34.252
I want to try to understand your experience, even if I have to be right there,

00:24:34.452 --> 00:24:40.472
seeing it through my eyes, even though I will never completely know what it feels like to be you.

00:24:41.152 --> 00:24:44.392
Empathy is not merging. It's not absorbing.

00:24:44.392 --> 00:24:48.432
It's not matching pain. And it's definitely not collapsing. because sometimes

00:24:48.432 --> 00:24:51.392
when people try to jump in to the deep end of the pool of empathy,

00:24:51.952 --> 00:24:57.252
they may even realize, oh gosh, I cannot believe that's what you're going. I am so sorry.

00:24:57.432 --> 00:25:02.712
And now the person that was seeking the empathetic connection is now trying

00:25:02.712 --> 00:25:06.292
to fix the person who jumped in and tried to be empathetic.

00:25:06.532 --> 00:25:08.332
No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have

00:25:08.332 --> 00:25:11.832
even brought you into this. And now that person feels even more unseen.

00:25:12.372 --> 00:25:17.572
Empathy really is about staying regulated. even when you're near somebody in distress.

00:25:17.912 --> 00:25:20.772
So empathy actually isn't burning your hand to prove loyalty,

00:25:20.772 --> 00:25:22.872
but it is standing calmly next

00:25:22.872 --> 00:25:26.932
to somebody whose hand is burning or burned and saying, man, I am here.

00:25:27.052 --> 00:25:31.652
I am going to go through this with you, even if I don't know exactly what that feels like.

00:25:31.812 --> 00:25:34.532
This is why when somebody says, I know exactly how you feel,

00:25:34.672 --> 00:25:36.112
they're trying to connect,

00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:41.140
But the truth is no one knows exactly how you feel because nobody is going to

00:25:41.140 --> 00:25:44.660
truly understand exactly how you feel or what it feels like to be you.

00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.140
Why? Because you're the only version of you who has ever existed and you're

00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:50.680
going through life the very first time.

00:25:51.140 --> 00:25:54.240
You're a wonderful combination of your nature and your nurture,

00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:57.820
your birth order, your DNA, your abandonment, your attachment history,

00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.980
your faith journeys, your abandonment wounds, your temperament,

00:26:00.040 --> 00:26:02.240
your personality, your wiring, your friends, your pets.

00:26:02.800 --> 00:26:06.100
Nobody has walked the earth with that exact combination.

00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:13.100
Behavioral genetics shows even identical twins raised together diverge in very

00:26:13.100 --> 00:26:17.580
measurable ways over time so that they can have the same input,

00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:20.500
but if they have to write down what they saw, different output.

00:26:20.840 --> 00:26:24.320
Attachment research, it shows that your early caregiver interactions,

00:26:24.620 --> 00:26:29.460
those things shape your neural wiring in very deep individual ways.

00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:33.340
Dan Siegel, who I mentioned earlier, emphasizes that your subjective experience

00:26:33.340 --> 00:26:35.100
is so uniquely constructed.

00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:39.620
Even identical twins, same DNA, same house, same parents, same dog,

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:41.940
same cat, same breakfast cereal.

00:26:42.120 --> 00:26:44.440
Don't report identical emotional experiences.

00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.400
And that comes from decades of developmental and personality research.

00:26:48.080 --> 00:26:52.340
Connection does not come from claiming sameness. It comes from honoring someone's

00:26:52.340 --> 00:26:57.720
difference and then not trying to tell them that their experience is wrong or that yours is right.

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.920
There's a moment that I have witnessed, honestly, hundreds of times in my office.

00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:05.560
And if you've been in a relationship, most likely you'll recognize this.

00:27:06.235 --> 00:27:09.255
Let's introduce Sarah and Mark into the equation. Sarah comes home from work.

00:27:09.355 --> 00:27:11.635
She's drained. She tells her husband, Mark, had the worst day.

00:27:11.875 --> 00:27:14.695
My boss just dismissed my presentation in front of the whole team.

00:27:14.995 --> 00:27:19.155
I spent two weeks on that project and then she just, she just moved on like it didn't even matter.

00:27:19.795 --> 00:27:22.695
Mark leans in, he even nods. It's like, man, that sounds frustrating.

00:27:23.235 --> 00:27:26.355
Good so far, right? I mean, that's, we're heading down the path of empathy.

00:27:26.835 --> 00:27:30.475
But then within about three seconds, he follows up with, have you thought about

00:27:30.475 --> 00:27:31.475
scheduling a one-on-one with her?

00:27:31.695 --> 00:27:33.495
I mean, maybe she didn't realize how much work that you put in.

00:27:33.635 --> 00:27:36.635
You could show her the data again. and Sarah's face kind of changes.

00:27:37.473 --> 00:27:42.433
You're not listening to me. And Mark's genuinely confused because he said the validating thing.

00:27:42.693 --> 00:27:45.513
He offered a helpful solution from his side. Hey, I'm trying to help.

00:27:46.013 --> 00:27:49.573
Or let's look at another example. David and Rachel. David tells his wife,

00:27:49.693 --> 00:27:52.233
Rachel, he's been feeling really disconnected from the kids.

00:27:52.633 --> 00:27:55.493
Man, it seems like they'd rather be on their phones than even talk to me.

00:27:55.593 --> 00:27:58.013
I try to engage with them and I just get these one word answers.

00:27:58.073 --> 00:27:59.793
And it makes me feel like I'm failing as a dad.

00:28:00.413 --> 00:28:03.653
Rachel hears this and she says, man, I'm sorry, babe, that's hard. And

00:28:03.653 --> 00:28:06.553
so then almost immediately she says but

00:28:06.553 --> 00:28:09.293
teenagers just like that you know maybe you could plan something they

00:28:09.293 --> 00:28:12.233
would actually want to do you could take them to that new arcade downtown

00:28:12.233 --> 00:28:16.113
you could just maybe spend a little more time with them and david goes quiet

00:28:16.113 --> 00:28:20.293
and he nods but something you could tell had shifted and he doesn't bring it

00:28:20.293 --> 00:28:25.093
up again later rachel's frustrated because she's saying you know david you never

00:28:25.093 --> 00:28:29.493
open up but from david's perspective he's thinking well why would i because

00:28:29.493 --> 00:28:32.193
you just told me that, yeah, that's perfectly normal,

00:28:32.473 --> 00:28:35.733
kind of feeling dismissed with his feelings. But then also, here's how you can fix them.

00:28:35.973 --> 00:28:39.173
He didn't feel felt. He felt more managed.

00:28:39.633 --> 00:28:42.873
So the pattern is that in both of those examples, the listening partner did

00:28:42.873 --> 00:28:47.573
something that honestly, it did look like empathy, definitely sympathy.

00:28:48.153 --> 00:28:52.233
And it was coming from a place that was good. They acknowledged the feeling.

00:28:52.393 --> 00:28:55.333
They said caring words, but then they kind of dashed.

00:28:55.673 --> 00:28:58.793
They touched the stove of their partner's pain just briefly,

00:28:58.973 --> 00:29:01.053
just enough to register No, it's hot.

00:29:01.453 --> 00:29:05.233
And they pull their hand back as fast as they can. So they checked this,

00:29:05.253 --> 00:29:09.333
this empathy box, and then they sprinted toward solutions, typically positivity,

00:29:09.653 --> 00:29:12.853
shifting your perspective, anything to get away from the heat.

00:29:13.433 --> 00:29:17.773
And it's like this empathy dash. And it's one of the most common patterns that

00:29:17.773 --> 00:29:21.173
I see in couples. And if you do this, there's actually nothing wrong with you.

00:29:21.553 --> 00:29:23.693
It's one of those situations where you just don't know what you don't know.

00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:30.120
And so now that we are understanding what that is, then we can do something about it.

00:29:30.380 --> 00:29:35.300
Okay. And now let's talk about why we do this because I enjoy the origin story.

00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:36.980
I enjoy understanding why.

00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:40.900
And it's fascinating. I had a conversation about this with my wife over the weekend.

00:29:41.380 --> 00:29:46.100
We were talking about how some people with the information, it's like the buck

00:29:46.100 --> 00:29:48.000
stops there. So let's take an ADHD diagnosis.

00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:51.120
For some people, they get the ADHD diagnosis. And then from that day forward,

00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:56.400
well, you know, I have ADHD, meaning that so that's there's nothing I could do because of my ADHD.

00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.880
And I'm more of a fan of, ah, that's what it is. I have ADHD.

00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.420
So now I can do, I can figure out how do I work with that?

00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:09.100
So that is what I am projecting onto all of you, my wonderful listeners.

00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:14.380
So let's talk about the origin story. A few months ago, I took a training from

00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:18.320
Terry Reel and I was fitting a lot of his work into almost every podcast.

00:30:18.520 --> 00:30:21.960
And now it's something that has been integrated into a lot of the couples work

00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:23.860
that I do. And here's what the concept is.

00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:28.940
He says the things that we do to survive as children become the things that sabotage us as adults.

00:30:29.100 --> 00:30:32.280
So what was adaptive in childhood becomes maladaptive in adulthood.

00:30:32.780 --> 00:30:36.200
Terry Real describes three parts of our psyche. He says there's the wise adult.

00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:40.200
That's the grounded present part of us that can observe, reflect,

00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:41.640
and make conscious choices.

00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:47.960
And that's there when you can learn to build the pause, to be able to self-reflect

00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:49.520
to kind of look at yourself in that moment.

00:30:49.820 --> 00:30:53.500
Then you got the wounded child. That's the part of us that still holds our earliest

00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:57.440
pain, shame, fear, abandonment. And then you've got the adaptive child.

00:30:57.600 --> 00:31:01.760
That's the part of you that developed these strategies to survive and navigate

00:31:01.760 --> 00:31:04.480
those painful experiences of the wounded child.

00:31:04.800 --> 00:31:08.880
It's the, if I do this, I can avoid pain. If I do that, I can stay safe.

00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.420
So that adaptive child, actually, it's brilliant because those strategies worked.

00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.540
You are alive. They kept you going.

00:31:15.800 --> 00:31:19.880
But the challenge is that the adaptive child doesn't ever update its playbook.

00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:23.820
So it's still running these old programs, even in new situations as an adult.

00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:30.520
So if you learned to shut down and weather the storm and withdraw until a uncomfortable

00:31:30.520 --> 00:31:33.980
conversation passed, that helped you survive as a kid.

00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:38.900
But now it's not actually very conducive to intimacy in an adult relationship.

00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:40.480
Let me give you a couple of examples.

00:31:41.040 --> 00:31:46.060
Frank was a classic empathy dasher. His wife would share something hard and

00:31:46.060 --> 00:31:51.180
within seconds, he would offer up solutions and silver linings and essentially toxic positivity.

00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:54.200
So here's what came up when we started to explore his history.

00:31:54.360 --> 00:32:00.000
He grew up with a mom who had very, very intense emotional episodes and they were all over the board.

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:03.960
When she was upset, the whole house walked on eggshells. So young Frank learned

00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:08.060
very quickly that when mom was emotional, his job, fix it,

00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:14.400
not withdraw fix it calm her down make it stop perform say anything even take

00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.700
something upon yourself sacrifice yourself because when her emotions went on

00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:22.660
for too long then things got scary so frank became a fixer when that house with

00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:26.560
that mom it was a brilliant adaptation well done young frank,

00:32:27.166 --> 00:32:30.926
Now he's married to a woman who doesn't need him to fix her feelings.

00:32:31.186 --> 00:32:36.186
She needs him to be with her in the feelings. And his adaptive child has no

00:32:36.186 --> 00:32:37.866
idea how to do that. Or let's look at Michelle.

00:32:38.106 --> 00:32:42.546
So she had a different version of the same parent. Her family was super mellow.

00:32:42.946 --> 00:32:46.486
Nobody raised their voice. If you were upset, you just kind of dealt with it

00:32:46.486 --> 00:32:49.026
privately and you moved on. And by dealing with it privately,

00:32:49.186 --> 00:32:50.746
that meant you just kind of ignored it.

00:32:51.226 --> 00:32:56.126
So when her husband would share something that was painful, she felt genuinely

00:32:56.126 --> 00:32:58.186
uncomfortable. I don't know what to do with this.

00:32:58.306 --> 00:33:01.626
Her instinct was to help him get over it fast because that's what her family

00:33:01.626 --> 00:33:05.866
did. She'd say things like, I mean, at least you have a job or maybe you're overthinking it.

00:33:06.186 --> 00:33:09.966
And she really did believe that she was being helpful. But from his perspective,

00:33:09.966 --> 00:33:12.966
she was absolutely dismissing his experience.

00:33:13.666 --> 00:33:18.166
Now, in both cases, the empathy dash wasn't a character flaw.

00:33:18.586 --> 00:33:20.886
It's a survival strategy. The

00:33:20.886 --> 00:33:24.946
part of you that dashes away from emotion genuinely believes it's helping.

00:33:25.146 --> 00:33:28.666
It's not trying to be dismissive. It's trying to protect you from discomfort.

00:33:28.826 --> 00:33:32.206
But your partner doesn't need protection from their own feelings.

00:33:32.306 --> 00:33:33.806
They need your presence.

00:33:34.186 --> 00:33:37.946
So let's talk about what your partner actually needs, because I think that once

00:33:37.946 --> 00:33:40.166
you understand this, things may click.

00:33:40.346 --> 00:33:44.726
And I think it's really important to note that just because you will have awareness

00:33:44.726 --> 00:33:48.186
does not mean that the implementation of this is easy.

00:33:48.326 --> 00:33:51.946
But we got to start somewhere. Back to Dan Siegel and his work on interpersonal

00:33:51.946 --> 00:33:55.046
neurobiology. He introduces the idea of co-regulation.

00:33:55.206 --> 00:33:59.626
So the way that our nervous systems are wired to sync with people around us. Think about a baby.

00:33:59.786 --> 00:34:03.386
A baby can't calm itself down, so it borrows its caregiver's nervous system.

00:34:03.506 --> 00:34:08.326
The parent picks up the baby, it rocks it, hums softly, and the baby's nervous system settles.

00:34:08.686 --> 00:34:12.866
You can borrow my nervous system. We co-regulate. And what it's learning is

00:34:12.866 --> 00:34:16.226
when I'm upset and someone calm shows up, I'm okay.

00:34:16.386 --> 00:34:19.786
So that doesn't stop when we grow up. When we're stressed or flooded with emotion,

00:34:19.786 --> 00:34:21.786
we look to the people closest to us for regulation.

00:34:22.206 --> 00:34:26.206
Our nervous systems are constantly sending signals. Am I safe? Is this person with me?

00:34:27.013 --> 00:34:32.173
It's also fascinating to think about the fact that if there wasn't a safe,

00:34:32.373 --> 00:34:38.293
calm version of that parent in the home, then the familiar became, if I get upset,

00:34:38.493 --> 00:34:43.133
that person gets more upset or that person shuts down and that just becomes the dance.

00:34:43.693 --> 00:34:46.373
So, let me give an example, a couple of versions of the same moment.

00:34:46.573 --> 00:34:48.393
So, let's say that there's a lady named Maria.

00:34:48.613 --> 00:34:51.373
She comes home after learning that their car needs a couple of thousand bucks

00:34:51.373 --> 00:34:53.713
in repairs and they had not budgeted for it.

00:34:53.713 --> 00:34:56.593
She's stressed her chest tightens her thoughts

00:34:56.593 --> 00:34:59.773
race so we have version a her husband james puts

00:34:59.773 --> 00:35:02.553
down what he's doing he turns to face her he takes a breath

00:35:02.553 --> 00:35:06.393
hey tell me what happened and as maria explains

00:35:06.393 --> 00:35:11.753
he maintains eye contact sets his phone down his body stays relaxed he doesn't

00:35:11.753 --> 00:35:15.533
interrupt and after she finishes he says that's a lot and i appreciate you sharing

00:35:15.533 --> 00:35:21.313
that and i can only imagine how stressful that is pause we figured out many

00:35:21.313 --> 00:35:25.013
things before we can do this let's sit down after dinner and we'll take a look at it together.

00:35:25.593 --> 00:35:29.653
Maria notices her breathing has slowed. The panic has softened.

00:35:29.853 --> 00:35:34.813
He didn't pretend the problem didn't exist, but his steadiness helped her nervous system settle.

00:35:35.033 --> 00:35:37.573
He didn't have all the answers, but they could figure it out together.

00:35:37.933 --> 00:35:41.853
He stayed at the stove and now they can think clearly together.

00:35:42.493 --> 00:35:46.573
Now let's look at option B. Maria comes to him with the same information.

00:35:46.833 --> 00:35:48.733
James' body immediately tenses.

00:35:50.122 --> 00:35:53.902
Can't hold back. And he says, are you serious? I told you we should have taken

00:35:53.902 --> 00:35:55.962
it to my guy. Now her heart rate spikes.

00:35:56.322 --> 00:35:59.982
He turns away, just turns to start scrolling his phone. She follows him down the hall.

00:36:00.662 --> 00:36:04.402
Please don't shut down. We have to do something about this. Her nervous system

00:36:04.402 --> 00:36:05.402
is now chasing connection.

00:36:05.702 --> 00:36:10.322
His withdrawal feels threatening. And then he experiences her intensity is overwhelming,

00:36:10.322 --> 00:36:12.522
which then makes him continue to retreat.

00:36:12.722 --> 00:36:17.362
And they've entered the classic pursuer withdrawal cycle, both more activated

00:36:17.362 --> 00:36:19.922
than when it started. The problem's unsolved.

00:36:20.122 --> 00:36:24.782
The injury to the relationship has been added with this financial stress and

00:36:24.782 --> 00:36:28.722
what they're training the relationship and teaching it is that we can't talk

00:36:28.722 --> 00:36:32.382
about finances and it's going to be bad. So buckle up and come in big.

00:36:32.602 --> 00:36:36.202
When your partner shares something difficult, their nervous system is activated.

00:36:36.622 --> 00:36:40.522
They're looking to you subconsciously. Maybe they're aware of it.

00:36:40.762 --> 00:36:44.382
More biologically is how they're looking to you for help regulating.

00:36:44.582 --> 00:36:49.482
And if you stay calm and present, your regulated nervous system can actually help calm theirs.

00:36:50.422 --> 00:36:54.302
Your steadiness can become contagious. But if you rush to fix,

00:36:54.582 --> 00:36:58.702
even if that sounds like the right mouth noises, your nervous system communicates

00:36:58.702 --> 00:37:00.322
something that I'm sure you're not intending.

00:37:00.902 --> 00:37:04.682
I can't even handle your distress. I need it to stop. And instead of settling,

00:37:04.942 --> 00:37:07.462
then they escalate because the person who was supposed to help them feel safe

00:37:07.462 --> 00:37:10.362
just signaled, hey, your feelings are too much or the way that you're handling

00:37:10.362 --> 00:37:13.902
this is wrong. And I need you to do this thing that I'm saying. No questions asked.

00:37:14.362 --> 00:37:17.662
So what do you do differently? If you've listened to the podcast for a while,

00:37:17.782 --> 00:37:20.622
you've maybe heard me talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation.

00:37:20.782 --> 00:37:24.602
And it's a framework that I developed based on Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy work.

00:37:24.722 --> 00:37:29.322
So a very quick review, you've got a pre-pillar of separating observation from judgment.

00:37:29.542 --> 00:37:33.162
If my partner walks by me and they are just looking at their phone and they

00:37:33.162 --> 00:37:35.522
don't say anything, that's an observation.

00:37:35.682 --> 00:37:39.282
The judgment might be, they are obviously mad at me, but we don't know that.

00:37:39.742 --> 00:37:41.922
So you separate the observation from the judgment.

00:37:42.402 --> 00:37:45.302
That leads to pillar one, which is essentially assuming good intentions.

00:37:45.542 --> 00:37:47.042
There's a reason why people do what they do.

00:37:47.522 --> 00:37:50.102
And I don't believe inherently that people wake up and think,

00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:51.102
how can I hurt my partner?

00:37:51.878 --> 00:37:54.878
The second pillar is pretty important. Don't tell other people that they're

00:37:54.878 --> 00:37:57.098
wrong or you don't believe them or that's not how it happened.

00:37:57.278 --> 00:38:00.618
Even if you think they're wrong and you don't think that's how it happened and

00:38:00.618 --> 00:38:04.058
you don't believe them because we're going to stay in the conversation,

00:38:04.298 --> 00:38:07.438
which then leads to pillar three, ask questions before you make comments.

00:38:07.598 --> 00:38:10.538
And then pillar four, stay present. Don't go into a victim mode.

00:38:11.238 --> 00:38:14.818
And today I think I want to spend more time on pillar three,

00:38:15.278 --> 00:38:16.318
questions before comments.

00:38:16.898 --> 00:38:19.618
This is the antidote to this empathy dash.

00:38:20.298 --> 00:38:24.998
The core principle here is your job in a connected conversation is not to respond.

00:38:24.998 --> 00:38:27.598
It's to understand. We'll get to the response later.

00:38:27.978 --> 00:38:33.118
And you understand by asking genuinely curious questions, not making assumptions,

00:38:33.318 --> 00:38:34.698
not assuming, no, I know what you're going to say.

00:38:35.038 --> 00:38:41.058
Just humor me because you don't actually know unless I guess maybe if you are

00:38:41.058 --> 00:38:44.518
literally a mind reader, but asking genuinely curious questions,

00:38:44.678 --> 00:38:49.538
not leading questions, not, okay, I hear you. have you thought about doing this?

00:38:50.078 --> 00:38:53.658
So that does sound like a question. You could even put a question mark after

00:38:53.658 --> 00:38:57.218
it. That's more of a comment dressed up in a disguise.

00:38:57.858 --> 00:39:00.878
So let's go back to Sarah, whose boss dismissed her presentation.

00:39:01.098 --> 00:39:03.638
So instead of jumping to solutions, what if Mark had stayed curious?

00:39:03.858 --> 00:39:06.738
Sarah, my boss dismissed my presentation in front of everybody.

00:39:06.918 --> 00:39:09.958
Mark, oh man, she dismissed it in front of everybody. That sounds awful.

00:39:10.298 --> 00:39:13.858
Sarah said, I spent two weeks on that. And Mark said, hey, what was going through

00:39:13.858 --> 00:39:14.738
your mind when that happened?

00:39:15.198 --> 00:39:19.938
And I want to pause and say, when you start doing this, and it's,

00:39:20.018 --> 00:39:23.598
if it's something that you haven't done before, I can imagine you can listen

00:39:23.598 --> 00:39:27.618
to this question that Mark just asked, what was going through your mind when it happened?

00:39:27.798 --> 00:39:31.098
And if you're not used to a genuinely curious version of your partner,

00:39:31.358 --> 00:39:35.718
it's going to sound like what was going through your mind when it happened?

00:39:35.898 --> 00:39:38.338
Like you must, it must've been wrong. It must've been ridiculous.

00:39:39.018 --> 00:39:42.078
And this dips into the emotional immaturity pool. If I feel it,

00:39:42.258 --> 00:39:43.538
if I think it, it must be true.

00:39:44.325 --> 00:39:50.705
And that's a trap to fall into because at some point I have to believe what the person's saying.

00:39:50.825 --> 00:39:54.285
If I hear that, what was going through your mind when it happened?

00:39:54.385 --> 00:39:56.805
And if I even said, hey, man, I just have to bring awareness to this.

00:39:57.145 --> 00:39:59.985
I am assuming good intentions. I'm not telling you that what you're trying to

00:39:59.985 --> 00:40:06.345
do is wrong. But what I am going to share with you is that feels to me judgy

00:40:06.345 --> 00:40:07.805
or like you have an agenda.

00:40:08.205 --> 00:40:12.525
And if the person asking the question now has this amazing opportunity to self-confront

00:40:12.525 --> 00:40:15.125
and say, okay, thank you for bringing that to my awareness.

00:40:15.605 --> 00:40:20.125
Quick check. I'm aware that I'm not being manipulative, but I can appreciate what you're saying.

00:40:20.265 --> 00:40:22.885
That would be hard if you felt like I was. And maybe even I know that I've been

00:40:22.885 --> 00:40:27.185
manipulative in the past, but that's a topic for a whole other podcast.

00:40:27.485 --> 00:40:30.265
So back to Mark. Mark says, hey, what was going through your mind when it happened?

00:40:30.485 --> 00:40:35.285
Genuinely curious. Then Sarah, having trust that we're having a connected moment

00:40:35.285 --> 00:40:39.265
here, a connected conversation says, I just froze. I just, I felt so dumb.

00:40:39.645 --> 00:40:42.145
It was almost like maybe my ideas aren't as good as I thought.

00:40:42.645 --> 00:40:45.965
Then Mark followed up with, is that something you've worried about?

00:40:46.165 --> 00:40:47.925
Tell me about that. You don't feel like your ideas are good enough.

00:40:48.085 --> 00:40:52.225
Sarah pauses. She's like, yeah, no, actually, yeah. I've been feeling that way a lot.

00:40:52.605 --> 00:40:56.525
And now they're getting somewhere real, true intimacy, knowing each other,

00:40:56.765 --> 00:41:01.265
not just talking about scheduling or the kids, talking about Sarah's self-doubt.

00:41:02.085 --> 00:41:06.045
And that's what she needed to process. And Mark never would have gotten there

00:41:06.045 --> 00:41:09.305
if he had jumped to solutions after one empathetic sentence.

00:41:10.025 --> 00:41:12.865
That's the part I love about being a couples therapist is when you can finally

00:41:12.865 --> 00:41:17.245
get to this point, there's a lot there that we may not even know about ourselves,

00:41:17.245 --> 00:41:20.745
but even if we know it, we may not feel safe enough to share it.

00:41:21.045 --> 00:41:25.385
Another example, David, the dad feeling disconnected. So instead of Rachel jumping

00:41:25.385 --> 00:41:28.285
to, we'll plan something fun. What if she got curious?

00:41:28.985 --> 00:41:31.345
David's saying, man, the kids would rather be on their phones and talk to me.

00:41:31.865 --> 00:41:35.365
Rachel, gosh, it sounds like you, it feels like you're competing with their

00:41:35.365 --> 00:41:37.985
phones and he said yeah no i am and i think i'm losing.

00:41:38.870 --> 00:41:43.050
And again, Rachel may want to say, well, me too. Or yeah, this is kids these days. Nope.

00:41:43.330 --> 00:41:46.990
She says, what does that feel like when you, when you try and they just give

00:41:46.990 --> 00:41:48.510
that one word answer? What's that like for you?

00:41:48.890 --> 00:41:52.150
David says, like, I don't even matter. Like, I'm just the guy who pays for things.

00:41:52.790 --> 00:41:56.830
And then Rachel says, I appreciate you sharing that. How long have you felt that way?

00:41:57.050 --> 00:41:59.790
And David months, maybe, I don't know. I never even would let myself think about

00:41:59.790 --> 00:42:02.590
it because I will collapse into shame.

00:42:03.110 --> 00:42:05.710
And Rachel says, that sounds really lonely.

00:42:06.370 --> 00:42:10.690
David's eyes get a little bit wet. And he said, it is. It really is.

00:42:10.770 --> 00:42:13.330
I appreciate you even just acknowledging that.

00:42:13.710 --> 00:42:16.270
Rachel didn't fix anything. She didn't solve the teenager problem,

00:42:16.410 --> 00:42:19.430
but David feels felt. He's not alone with this pain anymore.

00:42:19.710 --> 00:42:24.070
So I want to give you something concrete to try this week and stay with the

00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:26.450
theme today. Let's call it staying at the stove.

00:42:26.890 --> 00:42:30.350
So when your partner shares something hard and you touch the stove with their

00:42:30.350 --> 00:42:34.890
emotion and you pull back and you typically then will dash to these solutions or positivity.

00:42:35.490 --> 00:42:39.710
What I would love for you to try is to practice staying at the stove just a

00:42:39.710 --> 00:42:43.370
little bit longer, not forever, not until you're burned, just a little longer

00:42:43.370 --> 00:42:46.190
than is comfortable because growth comes from discomfort.

00:42:46.710 --> 00:42:52.590
So here's something to try, and I'm going to call it the three before one rule, three before one.

00:42:52.770 --> 00:42:56.250
The next time your partner shares something difficult, offer three empathetic

00:42:56.250 --> 00:42:59.830
responses before anything else, before you even try to offer advice,

00:43:00.030 --> 00:43:04.370
before you get to solutions, before you are giving them the just look on the bright side.

00:43:04.890 --> 00:43:08.830
Type of response. But here's what those three empathetic responses are.

00:43:09.190 --> 00:43:11.590
Response number one, try to reflect back what you heard.

00:43:12.110 --> 00:43:16.090
Simple mirroring. Show them that their words landed. Man, I hear that you were

00:43:16.090 --> 00:43:19.810
frustrated or it sounds like you didn't feel like you were given a fair shake.

00:43:20.330 --> 00:43:25.210
Response two, ask a curious question. Do your best to go deeper into their experience.

00:43:25.430 --> 00:43:27.190
Hey, tell me more about that.

00:43:27.490 --> 00:43:30.870
What was that like? Have you ever felt that way before? How long have you felt

00:43:30.870 --> 00:43:35.370
that way in response three which i think is probably the most important.

00:43:36.197 --> 00:43:41.017
Stay silent and let them continue. Just wait and let there be space.

00:43:41.417 --> 00:43:45.137
So let's go to the example of work stress. Say that your wife comes home.

00:43:45.317 --> 00:43:48.417
I'm so frustrated. My coworker took credit again for my idea.

00:43:48.737 --> 00:43:50.477
Old pattern, the empathy dash.

00:43:50.817 --> 00:43:53.077
Man, that's annoying. Have you talked to your manager about it?

00:43:53.137 --> 00:43:55.777
I think you really need to document this stuff. That's probably what you should do.

00:43:56.337 --> 00:44:00.257
New pattern. Three before one. Reflect. Wait, she took credit for your idea

00:44:00.257 --> 00:44:03.277
in front of everybody? Wife. Yeah, she acted like it was totally her thing.

00:44:03.897 --> 00:44:06.817
Curious question. Oh man, what were you thinking then? What was going through

00:44:06.817 --> 00:44:07.557
your head when that happened?

00:44:08.097 --> 00:44:12.297
Wife, I was so mad. But honestly, I was also kind of embarrassed.

00:44:12.377 --> 00:44:14.537
Should I have spoken up? But I didn't even know how.

00:44:14.997 --> 00:44:19.577
Stay silent. Let her continue. And she says, you know, I think what really bothers

00:44:19.577 --> 00:44:21.597
me is this has happened before.

00:44:21.717 --> 00:44:24.037
It's not like it's the first time. And I keep not saying anything.

00:44:24.657 --> 00:44:28.637
And then I just resent her more. So now you're getting something deeper.

00:44:28.717 --> 00:44:30.997
Her pattern of not speaking up. Her fear of conflict.

00:44:31.137 --> 00:44:33.237
She got there herself because you gave her space.

00:44:33.797 --> 00:44:36.937
Go back to this idea of being overwhelmed as a parent. Your husband says,

00:44:37.257 --> 00:44:38.977
man, I feel like I'm the only one who disciplines the kids.

00:44:39.157 --> 00:44:42.797
You're always the fun one. I'm the bad guy. The old pattern, that's not true.

00:44:42.997 --> 00:44:46.937
I discipline them too. Remember last week when I took away the iPad? New pattern.

00:44:47.637 --> 00:44:50.517
Man, so do you feel like you're always the heavy? Husband, yeah.

00:44:50.717 --> 00:44:52.777
And they go run into you and I'm the big jerk.

00:44:53.297 --> 00:44:56.797
Then curious question. Tell me what that's like. What does that feel like?

00:44:56.917 --> 00:45:00.337
Or give me some examples of that. Help me understand. Tell me more.

00:45:00.857 --> 00:45:04.937
And the husband, it hurts. It feels like they don't even like me. Stay silent.

00:45:05.477 --> 00:45:09.457
Husband. I don't know. I think I'm starting to be scared that I'm becoming my

00:45:09.457 --> 00:45:12.837
dad. And I never thought I would be my dad. And that's what he would do for me.

00:45:13.583 --> 00:45:16.863
He was a strict one and I resented him for it. I never wanted to be that guy.

00:45:17.023 --> 00:45:19.103
But now I see my kids looking at me the same way.

00:45:19.663 --> 00:45:24.623
There's, that's the real connection. That's intimacy. And he's not asking you to discipline more.

00:45:25.043 --> 00:45:28.263
He's afraid of losing his kids' love, but you never would have gotten there

00:45:28.263 --> 00:45:30.543
if you defended yourself after his first sentence.

00:45:30.863 --> 00:45:34.383
So after all three responses, you may not even need to offer anything else.

00:45:34.523 --> 00:45:40.023
And if they want your input, maybe they'll ask or you can offer, but not before.

00:45:40.523 --> 00:45:44.083
And I do want to address something that might be coming up. And I hear this

00:45:44.083 --> 00:45:46.303
a lot from partners who've been doing most of the repair work.

00:45:46.663 --> 00:45:51.083
Okay, I get it. Stay present, ask questions, don't rush to fix. But what about me?

00:45:51.623 --> 00:45:54.303
I'm doing all this work and my partner never even acknowledges it.

00:45:54.543 --> 00:45:55.823
Don't I deserve recognition?

00:45:56.383 --> 00:45:59.103
I'd worked with a husband who had been reading books and listening to podcasts

00:45:59.103 --> 00:46:00.863
and really trying to show up differently. And after a few weeks,

00:46:00.903 --> 00:46:03.923
he told me, I swear she seems more mad at me than ever before.

00:46:04.183 --> 00:46:08.483
And I don't understand that. How does that make sense? And I can see his exhaustion and it was genuine.

00:46:09.043 --> 00:46:12.903
Another client, a wife, once said to me, I have been biting my tongue,

00:46:13.463 --> 00:46:16.543
staying curious, like you said, but he never notices.

00:46:17.403 --> 00:46:20.483
It's not like he turns back around and asks me questions and it makes me want to stop trying.

00:46:20.883 --> 00:46:24.303
My answer, oh man, oh yeah, of course, I can understand why you would want your

00:46:24.303 --> 00:46:26.083
effort seen. That is a legitimate need.

00:46:26.483 --> 00:46:30.263
But then here's the tricky part. If you're only staying present because you're

00:46:30.263 --> 00:46:33.803
hoping that your partner will notice, then it's a good start,

00:46:33.823 --> 00:46:37.123
but it's not actual presence. That's more of a transaction.

00:46:37.763 --> 00:46:41.103
And if we go back to the concepts of co-regulation, our nervous systems are

00:46:41.103 --> 00:46:44.043
talking to each other, your partner can feel the difference.

00:46:44.483 --> 00:46:48.463
This is where differentiation comes in. The ability to hold onto yourself while

00:46:48.463 --> 00:46:50.783
in proximity to someone important to you.

00:46:51.023 --> 00:46:52.683
A differentiated person can say,

00:46:52.803 --> 00:46:55.703
I think I showed up well in that conversation and I feel good about it.

00:46:56.043 --> 00:47:00.023
They don't need their partner to confirm it, but don't get me wrong, it would be nice.

00:47:00.872 --> 00:47:04.792
But they're not destabilized by the absence of that recognition,

00:47:04.952 --> 00:47:06.672
that validation. And here's what's wild.

00:47:06.952 --> 00:47:11.652
The less you need the external validation, the more your partner will actually

00:47:11.652 --> 00:47:15.752
see you because you're not clouding the interaction with this neediness,

00:47:15.892 --> 00:47:17.832
this clinginess, this just anxious energy.

00:47:18.012 --> 00:47:21.812
You're just there and you're grounded and you're present.

00:47:22.192 --> 00:47:26.272
That's what creates safety. You absolutely deserve to be able to express yourself

00:47:26.272 --> 00:47:30.152
and even have needs met. But the starting point is learning to show up because

00:47:30.152 --> 00:47:33.692
it's the right thing to do, not because you're guaranteed a reward.

00:47:34.452 --> 00:47:38.012
And one more thing. Sometimes when your partner shares something hard and it's

00:47:38.012 --> 00:47:42.492
hard for you too, maybe they're sharing something about you and even a way that you hurt them.

00:47:42.912 --> 00:47:45.572
Now your adaptive child is activated. Your brain is screaming,

00:47:45.772 --> 00:47:47.972
defend yourself, fix the facts, correct them.

00:47:48.372 --> 00:47:51.352
But like, let's take the example of a husband using the three before one.

00:47:51.512 --> 00:47:55.632
Here's his wife say, I feel like you never prioritize me. You choose work over me and the kids.

00:47:56.132 --> 00:47:58.972
Everything in him wants to debate the word never. But if he does,

00:47:59.192 --> 00:48:00.092
the conversation's over.

00:48:00.412 --> 00:48:03.532
Because now they're debating facts instead of connecting. A wife practicing

00:48:03.532 --> 00:48:06.932
curiosity hears, sometimes you're more like my mother than my wife.

00:48:07.552 --> 00:48:11.292
The urge to counteract would be intense. But if she goes there,

00:48:11.492 --> 00:48:14.912
you'll most likely stop bringing up things that are vulnerable to her again.

00:48:15.092 --> 00:48:16.852
So what do you do when you're the one getting triggered?

00:48:17.232 --> 00:48:20.672
Notice your body. Are your shoulders tensing? Is your jaw clenching?

00:48:20.872 --> 00:48:24.892
Is your heart rate up? That's your nervous system starting to get into fight

00:48:24.892 --> 00:48:26.432
or flight mode. And it's normal.

00:48:26.712 --> 00:48:29.192
It's not a flaw. It's a survival instinct.

00:48:29.512 --> 00:48:34.812
It's important to take a breath literally in through the nose and out through the mouth.

00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:40.019
And ideally, a longer breath out through the mouth. This activates the parasympathetic

00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:43.579
nervous system, your rest and digest system. And it helps bring you back online.

00:48:43.819 --> 00:48:47.799
Remember, the goal is not to win, not to be right. It's to understand,

00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:51.379
to let your partner feel it, to be able to hold two things at once.

00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.659
This is hard to hear and there might be some truth in it.

00:48:54.839 --> 00:48:58.519
I want to defend myself and my partner needs me to listen right now.

00:48:58.919 --> 00:49:02.959
That's emotional maturity in action. Your wise adult is starting to show up,

00:49:03.099 --> 00:49:04.739
even when your adaptive child is screaming.

00:49:05.359 --> 00:49:07.979
And you're not going to do it perfectly. I don't do it perfectly.

00:49:08.259 --> 00:49:12.059
And that isn't the goal even. It's just to continue to do it and show up.

00:49:12.359 --> 00:49:15.159
Because every time you stay a little longer, every time you catch yourself before

00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:18.659
you do the empathy dash, you're training your nervous system.

00:49:18.819 --> 00:49:24.759
You're creating these new neural pathways. And over time, I promise it does get easier.

00:49:25.439 --> 00:49:29.219
Not easy, but easier. And if you've been doing this empathy dash,

00:49:29.339 --> 00:49:31.719
I want you to know you're not broken. You're human.

00:49:32.379 --> 00:49:35.299
Because it's the first time you've gone through life is you in this relationship

00:49:35.299 --> 00:49:37.059
with this partner and you haven't done this before.

00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:40.979
None of us have. And that urge to fix and to solve and to make the hard feeling

00:49:40.979 --> 00:49:43.999
stop was a brilliant one at one time.

00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:47.099
It kept you safe, but it was also really performative.

00:49:47.459 --> 00:49:49.339
Now you get to learn something new.

00:49:49.779 --> 00:49:52.719
Staying present with somebody's pain is one of the most profound gifts that

00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:54.799
you can give your presence, not your solutions.

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:59.539
That's what your partner actually needs. And the discomfort of being at that

00:49:59.539 --> 00:50:04.359
stove temporarily, maybe within range of the heat, that the connection you build by staying.

00:50:05.211 --> 00:50:09.231
That is training the nervous system and that lasts. So this week,

00:50:09.411 --> 00:50:10.611
try this three before one.

00:50:10.791 --> 00:50:13.991
When your partner shares something hard, catch yourself, reflect what you heard,

00:50:14.331 --> 00:50:17.851
ask a curious question, stay silent and let them continue and notice what happens.

00:50:18.131 --> 00:50:20.191
Not just to them, to you.

00:50:20.551 --> 00:50:24.851
Because when people stop dashing away and they start staying, things shift.

00:50:25.271 --> 00:50:29.191
And that's the beginning of rebuilding trust and your connection deepens and

00:50:29.191 --> 00:50:32.431
your partner starts to feel something they may not have felt in a long time.

00:50:32.431 --> 00:50:38.731
I'm seen, understood, felt, they have felt, felt, but they don't feel perfection.

00:50:39.271 --> 00:50:42.871
It's just staying a little bit longer than you did before, letting them have

00:50:42.871 --> 00:50:44.751
their thunder and you don't need to steal it.

00:50:44.971 --> 00:50:49.071
You'll have an opportunity to share your own experiences, your own thunder at

00:50:49.071 --> 00:50:54.451
some point as well, but it will take patience and it will take practice and

00:50:54.451 --> 00:50:55.571
you're not going to be perfect at it.

00:50:55.831 --> 00:51:00.411
And when you fall off that proverbial horse, then it could hurt,

00:51:00.411 --> 00:51:03.711
but you're going to get up and you're going to do it again and you're going

00:51:03.711 --> 00:51:05.071
to get pretty darn good at writing.

00:51:05.911 --> 00:51:12.431
But I do know that this is a model that works and it's normal and natural to

00:51:12.431 --> 00:51:16.571
yeah, but it and to think of all the reasons why it wouldn't because that will keep you where you are.

00:51:16.751 --> 00:51:20.011
And that is pretty familiar, even if it doesn't feel good.

00:51:20.311 --> 00:51:23.931
As always, reach out. If you want to talk more about this, contact at TonyOverbay.com.

00:51:23.951 --> 00:51:27.571
If this episode resonated, I would love for you to share it with somebody who might need to hear it.

00:51:27.571 --> 00:51:30.271
And there will be a lot of this kind

00:51:30.271 --> 00:51:34.351
of content and more in my magnetic marriage reboot so to get on the wait list

00:51:34.351 --> 00:51:40.011
go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic and i cannot wait to talk to you next time on

00:51:40.011 --> 00:51:42.151
the compressed emotions flying

00:51:42.151 --> 00:51:49.311
past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's.