Welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch. I am your host,
Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful
habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father, four, and host of the Waking
Up to Narcissim podcast as well.
Follow me on social media platforms of your choice at TikTok at Virtual Couch,
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can go get on the wait list at tonyoverbay.com slash magnetic and we will probably
talk a little bit more about that today some of the concepts that i'm going to get to eventually.
Today is a fun topic. It is based on a little bit of an aha that I had at a
men's retreat that I was participating in as a presenter with my good friend,
Craig Para, who is founder of The Mindful Habit.
When I talk about in my opening that I'm a mindful habit coach,
that's where that comes from. He's an amazing person with his wife, Michelle.
I was participating in this men's retreat and I was talking about four pillars
of a connected conversation. I was talking about providing safety in the relationship.
And there was a guy who, and at this point we were about two or three days in,
I really appreciated and loved
the guys that were there that were participating in the men's retreat.
And that's important because of what he said. I really believe what he said
wasn't done from a place of manipulation or emotional immaturity.
He said that his wife had opened up to him about feeling overwhelmed.
And she had talked about carrying a very large mental load.
And as she was telling him this, he said he had this realization.
He was very genuine as he was expressing this to myself and to the other group of men.
He said, wait, I realize I also carry a big mental load as well.
So right after she had expressed that, he told her that he also carried a big mental load.
So he thought it was going to be this moment of connection. Hey,
me too. And it turns out that we're in this together. And I did ask him with
a little bit of humor already loaded.
How'd that go? And then maybe not surprisingly, it did not go very well.
It is tricky because I see this often and I think it's safe to say on a daily basis.
Now, to be fair, from his side, he wasn't even thinking about his own experience
of carrying a mental load because he hadn't really thought of it that way until she brought it up.
And she was coming to him wanting to be understood.
And then the very words that she spoke in hopes of having him understand her,
it's this emotional bid that she was making.
She's handing her heart out to him. It was this moment, I'm fairly confident,
without even meeting with her, where she wanted to be known.
She wanted to be understood. she was choosing him to be the one to know her.
But then it was those very words that she uttered that when taken in through his ear holes,
traveling instantaneously to his brain, generated a flurry of electrical activity
that then caused him to utter some mouth sounds,
these combination of words that give him the language for something that he
had not been able to name before.
He realized in that very moment that he too was carrying a very big mental load.
Now, to be fair, most likely he also had a very brief moment of suppressing
an inappropriate joke around the words mental load because he is a male.
But one could argue that his intent was genuine and he really had not identified
what it was that he had felt often until she was expressing her feelings, until she went first.
And in talking to this guy, I would put my 20 plus years of couples therapy
on the table to say that he was genuinely confused as he shared the story as
to why she didn't immediately respond to him with.
Hang on, I know that I just poured my heart out to you in an attempt to be heard,
but I'll be darned if the fact that you just immediately repeated to me the
exact same words that I just said that I was feeling.
Now I would really appreciate you taking the floor and I would actually love
to hear you wax philosophic for, I don't know, maybe the next half an hour of what this means to you.
And if you don't mind, I think I would actually now love for you to bring up
a lot of things from the past that you think I haven't done well,
because I think this exchange we're having right now, I think this might be
the key to me praising you more, initiating intimacy more.
Honestly, I actually think I'd like to hear some more of your high school football
stories while we're at it.
No, she actually did not feel connected in that moment.
One could actually say that the impact on her was the exact opposite,
completely different, because to her, she had just opened a door.
She was being vulnerable. And before she even got to feel heard,
the conversation was already about him.
So even though he meant connection, what she experienced was dismissal.
And it's that gap between intent and impact.
That's where so much of the damage happens in relationships.
And sometimes what's happening in that gap is something so subtle, but it's very powerful.
And it isn't necessarily someone being cruel. It isn't even necessarily someone
trying to dominate or assert their power.
It's not even always defensiveness, but it's this moment where somebody opens
up and before their share has fully had a chance to stick, to land,
the conversation shifts, the momentum changes, the focus moves.
It's almost like the original share gets edged out of its own space.
Now, we're going to come back to that dynamic later because I actually had a
couple name it in a way that I think is perfect.
But for now, just hold on to that idea that sometimes the damage isn't what was said.
It's what that person didn't even get to finish when they were really trying
to be heard and to be understood.
And I want to be super honest. If this was my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
I know that there's a version of this that I call the attack surface.
Because to the emotionally immature or the person with
narcissistic traits states tendencies up to full-blown narcissistic
personality disorder i like to say that they just
simply need another person to interact with to essentially know
that they exist and so what that looks like in real
time is that anytime and i'm being pretty intentional about the all or nothing
vibe of that statement anytime anytime the more pathologically kind spouse and
again if you're not familiar with that concept or that term or you're not waking
up to narcissism listener that I find that often it is that pathologically kind person.
Kindness is a wonderful thing. It becomes pathological when it's used against
them, when it's used to their detriment.
And that pathologically kind
partner often finds themselves with the more emotionally immature partner.
The author Ross Rosenberg calls that combination the human magnet syndrome.
And it's breakup resistant and it's breakup resistant.
And I'm talking about the negative version of that because that pathologically
kind person will most likely continue to offer up themselves,
self-sacrifice for the good of the relationship. And then the emotionally immature
person doesn't even know what they don't know.
And so they often think that the relationship is good because their pathologically
kind partner has sacrificed their opinion, their behavior, their thoughts,
their feelings, their emotions.
And they think that they're doing that for the good of the relationship,
but it just furthers and deepens this dynamic.
This pursue or withdraw, this, okay, I'll deal with it later,
this big old can kicking down the road.
But that pathologically kind spouse will then offer up their thoughts,
their opinions, their questions, their concerns, and then it becomes a surface
that can be attacked with the goal.
And I do think most of it is subconscious
of the emotionally immature narcissistic partner to now put that.
Person in the one down position and give them the one up position.
So if that pathologically kind spouse says, you know, I'm thinking about getting
a new pair of running shoes.
The answer isn't, oh, what kind are you thinking about getting?
Or how do you even determine when you swap out your shoes? Because I'm genuinely curious.
I know for me, it's about every 500 miles. I read that in a runner's world magazine,
but how about you? Or are you thinking about signing up for a new race?
Is that why you want a new pair of shoes? Because you want to have them broken
in? You noticing any aches or pains that might indicate maybe uneven wear and tear on your shoes?
As a matter of fact, I love that you're sharing this with me because I want to know you.
No, that's the healthy version. In the world of the emotionally immature slash
narcissistic partner, the answers would be more like, oh, that must be nice
to get a new pair of shoes whenever the heck you want.
Wish I could be that frivolous and spend our money like that.
Or if the person happens to be the primary breadwinner, okay,
I guess that's okay, but a little appreciation would be nice.
Or I don't see you exercising regularly and I can't promise that I'm actually
not going to be mad if I don't see you doing that, if you're going to spend my money on your shoes.
Or, okay, if you're going to do that, then I think you owe me two back rubs
and you have to initiate intimacy for a month.
Or there could also be what a client of mine once called, and I think it's so
apropos of being nothing, where maybe he just doesn't say anything at all.
And she just wanted connection of any kind, to which then she might even follow
up and say, I don't know if you, did you hear me say that? And then he said, yeah, I heard you.
Do you need a round of applause or do you want me to ring a little bell?
Do you need a trophy or something? What do you want me to say?
Unfortunately, I deal with a lot of those types of responses and couples therapy
as well. So back to this example.
Now, I had a couple in my office just a week or so ago, and I was sharing this
experience about the men's retreat with them, and we were having a really,
really good conversation.
So I was sharing with the couple that I wasn't saying that the guy needed to
necessarily shove his thoughts down or his emotions or his reactions.
They didn't need to be suppressed necessarily.
But I said that I was noticing that if something comes up for you when your
partner is sharing, that is real.
And I understand that can be a place coming from good intentions that matters.
But maybe it's more about the order or structure of the conversation or more
about the sequencing of the conversation. It's about when you bring up your
piece, because in that moment, she was the one being vulnerable.
She was the one who opened the door. She had the talking stick,
the floor, so to speak, and the floor was not yet open for questions.
What she needed first was space, runway to share.
And hopefully some genuine curiosity about her experience, some emotional safety.
So what I suggested to the guys at the retreat was, you know,
if your partner opens up and it does trigger something in you,
some recognition, some, oh my gosh, I feel that too.
That's a good thing. Make a mental note of it.
Hold it gently. But that moment isn't yours yet.
Stay with your partner first. Even something as simple as, man,
tell me more about that. Even while internally you're thinking, I feel this too.
I need to say this. But if I can stay with that, tell me more changes the whole
trajectory of that moment and know that you can come back to your experience
later and it will most likely even land better because your partner will not
have the capacity to hear you once they felt heard themselves.
And if you immediately are saying, well, yeah, but yeah, but I might forget.
That's absolutely true. And I would like to encourage a little bit of a reframe.
The relationship is more of the long game. Not if I don't say this right now,
then the world will stop spinning immediately.
We will all die and no offense, but whatever it is that just came up in your
mind when you heard your partner say something for the first time is also not
going to be the combination of words and mouth noises and facial expressions
that will erase decades of marital strife in an instant right now.
So your work is to stay engaged and present in the conversation as the listener.
So then I went on to share with this couple that what's been pretty wild is
since that retreat, I do a lot of couple sessions each week and I keep seeing
this exact dynamic play out.
And I know it's most likely a little confirmation bias, but it almost seems
like I've found the origin story of so many reactive moments in relationships
where somebody tries to share something and immediately feel shut down.
So over time, they stop trying to be heard.
Somebody tries to open up and their partner's brain immediately goes,
oh, that reminds me of something that I'm feeling too.
And then the share gets hijacked before it even lands. I mentioned to them that
I'm trying to come up with a name for it.
And I went and pulled the transcript from the session. The husband then said
immediately, stealing thunder.
That's what it is, right? That person is thunder stealing. They're stealing your thunder.
And then I said, oh, I love that. Stealing thunder. That is,
that's exactly what it feels like, isn't it?
Like you're mid-share, you're putting something out there and then somebody
rolls in with their version before yours even gets to land. And I said,
yeah, I think that's the name.
Thank you. I've been trying to find the right words for it and that nails it.
And then the guy said, yeah, thunder stealing. It really does make sense because
they're starting to steal your momentum. They're starting to.
And then the wife cut in and she said, I don't necessarily think it's stealing
thunder. I don't think so.
But I mean, I could see why it could come across that way, like you were saying.
But what I think, and then as she was trying to think of what to say next, there was a pause.
And then the guy said, oh, but...
So that's actually it. Like she literally just stole my thunder right there.
I named the thing and she just, and then I cut in and said, wait, hold on.
Yeah, that happened in real time. And then I, now that you'll know,
I don't just say these things on the podcast. I said, isn't that meta?
Is that what the kids would say?
And then they both had a little chuckle.
And then I looked over at the wife and I said, hey, so I would love to just
take a second and name what just happened.
And I want to be real careful because I worry that you may think that I am telling
you that you've done something wrong. But here's what I saw.
Your husband offered a name for this concept, stealing thunder.
And then pretty much immediately you had a reaction, a thought.
And so what he offered up, it was somewhat negated, reframed.
The edges got taken off before I had a chance to just sit there for a second.
And I don't think you were trying to dismiss him.
My guess is your brain just did what brains do. You heard the concept and it
immediately caused you to think of something and And you started refining it,
making sense of it in your own way.
But the effect on your husband's end is that the thing that he just named got
adjusted before it got to essentially breathe, which communicating to him that
what he shared was wrong and it wasn't even worth further exploration.
And that's the whole phenomenon that we're talking about playing out right here
in front of us in real time.
And thank goodness she had a little bit of a laugh and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
And I, oh no, I said, honestly, this is kind of a gift because we didn't have
to construct an example or pull something from our memory. We just watched it.
That's rare. And it means, I think that you're both going to be able to spot
this so much more easily now because you just saw it. You felt it.
You didn't just hear about it. And then the husband said, and honestly,
yeah, Stealing Thunder, I think is the right name for it because I've been in
that position over and over. and then I did the therapist standard. Tell me more about that.
And he said, the vast majority of the time, it seems like when I bring something
up, a grievance, something that's bothering me, by the end of the time I'm expressing
it, I'm actually the one that's apologizing.
And I said, okay, hold on, say that again. So you come in with something that's bothering you.
And by the end of the conversation, you think that you're the one saying, sorry.
And he said, yeah, yeah, because it goes like this. I say, it's how I feel.
And it gets met with, yeah, me too. Actually, let me tell you why mine is worse.
And then he said, and suddenly I'm defending myself instead of being heard.
And then I eventually just fold and apologize just to make it stop,
to move on through the conversation.
So I pointed out, that's a pretty significant pattern. And I want to make sure
that that gets the space, the acknowledgement that it deserves,
because it sounds like what you're describing, you start out as the person with
the grievance, and by the end, you become the person managing your partner's
reaction to your grievance. That's a big shift.
And I'm wondering if over time, if that teaches the brain that bringing things
up isn't safe and that it's going to cost you more than it's worth.
I said, we'll come back to this. And he said, yeah, that's what's happening.
So I turned to the wife and I said, hey, I would love to check in with you.
I'm curious when I pointed that out, the stealing thunder about stealing thunder
moment, what did that feel like? Did you think that I was criticizing you?
And she said, no, honestly, maybe a little bit. Maybe I felt that a little bit,
but I also, I recognized it as well. I actually.
I think I saw it while it was happening, but I was already too far down that
path. And I said, man, I appreciate you telling me that.
And then I turned to the husband. And again, I've worked with him for a while.
So there's a lot of potential for humor here.
And I said, are you buying that? Are you picking up what she's putting down?
And he's like, I am. I really am.
And then I made sure that they knew that that was, for the record,
that was me being hilarious because that was not very differentiated of me saying,
really? Are you sure? You're really sure?
And then we just had a laugh. that concept of stealing thunder's
origin story was then stole in the moment
so what i shared with them was moving forward i would love that
when one of them shares something a feeling a frustration whatever that
is the other one feels that me too impulse rise up or that urge to refine and
adjust what your partner just said see if you can catch it just notice that
you can name it internally there's the thunder grab and then try to stay curious
about what your partner's saying jump back into the present moment for even
just a little bit longer before you try to bring your piece in.
Your experience still matters and it's going to get airtime.
We have to trust that, but let theirs land first.
And they both said that sounded good because it really felt like they were well
positioned to work with that because they demonstrated they could see it in the very moment.
So here's what I find fascinating to me about that whole dynamic,
that neither one of them in the room wasn't trying to hurt the other person.
The husband wasn't trying to dominate.
The wife wasn't really trying to make him feel bad or dismiss him.
And just like the guy at the men's retreat
wasn't trying to hijack his wife's moment and in
fact in these examples the intent was connection but the impact was disconnection
the gap between intent and impact i think is where so many relationships start
to erode because what looks like me too on the inside lands more like not you on the outside but.
Here's where that gets even trickier, because most of the time when this happens,
the person who just derailed the moment would swear under oath that they were being empathetic.
No, I was relating. I was trying to connect.
I want to share my emotions too. I was showing her that I understood.
But what often happens instead isn't empathy.
And for a while, I was calling it drive-by empathy or check-the-box empathy.
And if you've ever been on the receiving end of it, I think you know exactly what I mean.
Let me paint another picture. Imagine your partner comes home and they are overwhelmed.
They are raw. They're vulnerable.
And instead of listening, they say, okay, before we talk, I really need you
to do something for me. Can you follow me into the kitchen?
And can you just, can you go put your hand on the hot stove? Let me turn it on first.
You hesitate. And they're like, seriously, if you really want to try to understand
me, if you want to empathize with me, you need to try to feel what I'm feeling.
So I would really appreciate it if you could go touch the stove.
So you're thinking I okay, I don't know what I don't know seems kind of crazy So let's say you do.
And, but you just tap it real fast and then you jerk your hand back.
Okay, it's hot. I get it. Burns. We good. And now your hand hurts too.
That's almost what drive by empathy can feel like. It's not staying.
It's not understanding.
It's just a brief sample of someone's pain and then announcing,
okay, no, I get it. I've experienced it.
Can we move on? And the person who is vulnerable, they're still standing there alone.
And then the more you sit with that, your hand hurts and you're wondering why
on earth did I have to do that?
Was that some sort of, I don't know, sadistic ritual to prove my love?
It feels more like the start of some bad Netflix movie, not a way to connect.
And I think sometimes that's what empathy turns into, not connection,
but shared suffering more with now a side of resentment. Because I often hear
stories from people that are genuinely trying to empathize with their partner.
We start from a place of most likely they never saw that modeled in their childhood.
They're desperately trying to understand this concept because they may hear
it often. Well, you have no empathy. And this is why I think your empathy isn't landing.
And I can maybe even hear people say, hang on though. I think I've got it down.
I am empathetic. I literally just told my partner that I understood, period.
I said the thing, I checked the box. So why are they still upset?
And if that's you or you're anywhere in that ballpark, this episode is for you.
Because what I have learned now sitting across couples for decades,
I can say now, and well over 1,500 couples, most people do at some point think
they're being empathetic.
When they're actually doing something else entirely.
Something that feels like empathy on the inside, but lands more like a dismissal on the outside.
And that gap between what you're doing and what your partner actually experiences,
that's where the relationship pain lives.
So let's take a step back. Let's start at the very beginning.
Apparently a very good place to start.
And I'll be honest, there was a time I genuinely confused empathy and sympathy.
And it was absolutely a time when I was a practicing therapist.
It's very brave of me, very vulnerable to say that. And I often find it very
courageous when adult humans in my office will have the courage to say,
I actually don't even really understand the difference.
But simply stated, sympathy, I hate that. That sounds difficult. That must be hard.
Empathy, help me understand what that's like for you. So an example of sympathy,
your partner says, man, I bombed my presentation.
The sympathetic response, oh man, that sounds rough. I'm sure you'll do better next time.
And even that, as good as it sounds, there's a deep dive that is needed.
Oh, man, that's rough. That is sympathetic.
I put the next sentence in there because I think it's one of these things that
can naturally flow when somebody thinks that they are being empathetic,
but they're really being sympathetic and so, oh man, that's rough.
You'll do better next time.
Now, technically, again, sympathetic checks the box. The words are kind.
The tone might be warm. You're making the right mouth sounds.
And I use that phrase very intentionally, mouth sounds, because from a co-regulation
standpoint, tone matters.
We know from interpersonal neurobiology, this work of Dan Siegel,
that the nervous system responds to vocal warmth, to the rise and fall of someone's voice.
So yeah, those sounds can be registered as kind.
But here's the part we don't talk about. Sometimes sympathy isn't about them at all. It's about us.
When I say you'll do better next time, there's a subtle relief that happens
inside of me. I have moved away from discomfort. I have wrapped it up. I have made it hopeful.
I have tied it in a bow. And honestly, I feel good.
But imagine you're the one who just bombed the presentation.
You've been replaying the game film in your head a dozen times over,
you're dissecting every slide, every awkward pause, you're insinuating things, making up stories.
You're wondering if your ideas now, maybe they aren't even good enough.
And the response you'll get is, hey, champ, you'll do better next time.
Now you're in this weird position where you now almost feel required to make
the correct returned mouth sounds of, okay, thanks. I appreciate that.
I'm sure I will. But inside you feel completely unseen.
It's almost like the other person has this magical superpower that all you have
to do is tell them your problem and they wave a wand and say, it'll be okay.
And suddenly your entire breakdown of your own game film, it was absolutely
unnecessary. Apparently you just needed their optimism.
Oh, my bad. I did not realize the solution was simply believing harder.
And here's the dangerous part that if you don't do better next time, then what?
Now it subtly becomes your fault because maybe you didn't listen.
Maybe you didn't believe in yourself.
Maybe you didn't try hard enough. So why would you open up again?
Why risk vulnerability if the outcome is either dismissal or the silent pressure?
Now let's talk about empathy. Oh man, you bombed it.
Bombed it how? Tell me about that. What was that like? What did that feel like?
Take me through it. I want to understand. I want to hear it all.
Empathy moves toward experience, while sympathy acknowledges it from a safe distance.
It's like sympathy kind of stands on the shore and waves.
Empathy, we're rolling up our pant legs and we're getting in the water.
But not to drown with you, but I want to be near you.
I want to try to understand your experience, even if I have to be right there,
seeing it through my eyes, even though I will never completely know what it feels like to be you.
Empathy is not merging. It's not absorbing.
It's not matching pain. And it's definitely not collapsing. because sometimes
when people try to jump in to the deep end of the pool of empathy,
they may even realize, oh gosh, I cannot believe that's what you're going. I am so sorry.
And now the person that was seeking the empathetic connection is now trying
to fix the person who jumped in and tried to be empathetic.
No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have
even brought you into this. And now that person feels even more unseen.
Empathy really is about staying regulated. even when you're near somebody in distress.
So empathy actually isn't burning your hand to prove loyalty,
but it is standing calmly next
to somebody whose hand is burning or burned and saying, man, I am here.
I am going to go through this with you, even if I don't know exactly what that feels like.
This is why when somebody says, I know exactly how you feel,
they're trying to connect,
But the truth is no one knows exactly how you feel because nobody is going to
truly understand exactly how you feel or what it feels like to be you.
Why? Because you're the only version of you who has ever existed and you're
going through life the very first time.
You're a wonderful combination of your nature and your nurture,
your birth order, your DNA, your abandonment, your attachment history,
your faith journeys, your abandonment wounds, your temperament,
your personality, your wiring, your friends, your pets.
Nobody has walked the earth with that exact combination.
Behavioral genetics shows even identical twins raised together diverge in very
measurable ways over time so that they can have the same input,
but if they have to write down what they saw, different output.
Attachment research, it shows that your early caregiver interactions,
those things shape your neural wiring in very deep individual ways.
Dan Siegel, who I mentioned earlier, emphasizes that your subjective experience
is so uniquely constructed.
Even identical twins, same DNA, same house, same parents, same dog,
same cat, same breakfast cereal.
Don't report identical emotional experiences.
And that comes from decades of developmental and personality research.
Connection does not come from claiming sameness. It comes from honoring someone's
difference and then not trying to tell them that their experience is wrong or that yours is right.
There's a moment that I have witnessed, honestly, hundreds of times in my office.
And if you've been in a relationship, most likely you'll recognize this.
Let's introduce Sarah and Mark into the equation. Sarah comes home from work.
She's drained. She tells her husband, Mark, had the worst day.
My boss just dismissed my presentation in front of the whole team.
I spent two weeks on that project and then she just, she just moved on like it didn't even matter.
Mark leans in, he even nods. It's like, man, that sounds frustrating.
Good so far, right? I mean, that's, we're heading down the path of empathy.
But then within about three seconds, he follows up with, have you thought about
scheduling a one-on-one with her?
I mean, maybe she didn't realize how much work that you put in.
You could show her the data again. and Sarah's face kind of changes.
You're not listening to me. And Mark's genuinely confused because he said the validating thing.
He offered a helpful solution from his side. Hey, I'm trying to help.
Or let's look at another example. David and Rachel. David tells his wife,
Rachel, he's been feeling really disconnected from the kids.
Man, it seems like they'd rather be on their phones than even talk to me.
I try to engage with them and I just get these one word answers.
And it makes me feel like I'm failing as a dad.
Rachel hears this and she says, man, I'm sorry, babe, that's hard. And
so then almost immediately she says but
teenagers just like that you know maybe you could plan something they
would actually want to do you could take them to that new arcade downtown
you could just maybe spend a little more time with them and david goes quiet
and he nods but something you could tell had shifted and he doesn't bring it
up again later rachel's frustrated because she's saying you know david you never
open up but from david's perspective he's thinking well why would i because
you just told me that, yeah, that's perfectly normal,
kind of feeling dismissed with his feelings. But then also, here's how you can fix them.
He didn't feel felt. He felt more managed.
So the pattern is that in both of those examples, the listening partner did
something that honestly, it did look like empathy, definitely sympathy.
And it was coming from a place that was good. They acknowledged the feeling.
They said caring words, but then they kind of dashed.
They touched the stove of their partner's pain just briefly,
just enough to register No, it's hot.
And they pull their hand back as fast as they can. So they checked this,
this empathy box, and then they sprinted toward solutions, typically positivity,
shifting your perspective, anything to get away from the heat.
And it's like this empathy dash. And it's one of the most common patterns that
I see in couples. And if you do this, there's actually nothing wrong with you.
It's one of those situations where you just don't know what you don't know.
And so now that we are understanding what that is, then we can do something about it.
Okay. And now let's talk about why we do this because I enjoy the origin story.
I enjoy understanding why.
And it's fascinating. I had a conversation about this with my wife over the weekend.
We were talking about how some people with the information, it's like the buck
stops there. So let's take an ADHD diagnosis.
For some people, they get the ADHD diagnosis. And then from that day forward,
well, you know, I have ADHD, meaning that so that's there's nothing I could do because of my ADHD.
And I'm more of a fan of, ah, that's what it is. I have ADHD.
So now I can do, I can figure out how do I work with that?
So that is what I am projecting onto all of you, my wonderful listeners.
So let's talk about the origin story. A few months ago, I took a training from
Terry Reel and I was fitting a lot of his work into almost every podcast.
And now it's something that has been integrated into a lot of the couples work
that I do. And here's what the concept is.
He says the things that we do to survive as children become the things that sabotage us as adults.
So what was adaptive in childhood becomes maladaptive in adulthood.
Terry Real describes three parts of our psyche. He says there's the wise adult.
That's the grounded present part of us that can observe, reflect,
and make conscious choices.
And that's there when you can learn to build the pause, to be able to self-reflect
to kind of look at yourself in that moment.
Then you got the wounded child. That's the part of us that still holds our earliest
pain, shame, fear, abandonment. And then you've got the adaptive child.
That's the part of you that developed these strategies to survive and navigate
those painful experiences of the wounded child.
It's the, if I do this, I can avoid pain. If I do that, I can stay safe.
So that adaptive child, actually, it's brilliant because those strategies worked.
You are alive. They kept you going.
But the challenge is that the adaptive child doesn't ever update its playbook.
So it's still running these old programs, even in new situations as an adult.
So if you learned to shut down and weather the storm and withdraw until a uncomfortable
conversation passed, that helped you survive as a kid.
But now it's not actually very conducive to intimacy in an adult relationship.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
Frank was a classic empathy dasher. His wife would share something hard and
within seconds, he would offer up solutions and silver linings and essentially toxic positivity.
So here's what came up when we started to explore his history.
He grew up with a mom who had very, very intense emotional episodes and they were all over the board.
When she was upset, the whole house walked on eggshells. So young Frank learned
very quickly that when mom was emotional, his job, fix it,
not withdraw fix it calm her down make it stop perform say anything even take
something upon yourself sacrifice yourself because when her emotions went on
for too long then things got scary so frank became a fixer when that house with
that mom it was a brilliant adaptation well done young frank,
Now he's married to a woman who doesn't need him to fix her feelings.
She needs him to be with her in the feelings. And his adaptive child has no
idea how to do that. Or let's look at Michelle.
So she had a different version of the same parent. Her family was super mellow.
Nobody raised their voice. If you were upset, you just kind of dealt with it
privately and you moved on. And by dealing with it privately,
that meant you just kind of ignored it.
So when her husband would share something that was painful, she felt genuinely
uncomfortable. I don't know what to do with this.
Her instinct was to help him get over it fast because that's what her family
did. She'd say things like, I mean, at least you have a job or maybe you're overthinking it.
And she really did believe that she was being helpful. But from his perspective,
she was absolutely dismissing his experience.
Now, in both cases, the empathy dash wasn't a character flaw.
It's a survival strategy. The
part of you that dashes away from emotion genuinely believes it's helping.
It's not trying to be dismissive. It's trying to protect you from discomfort.
But your partner doesn't need protection from their own feelings.
They need your presence.
So let's talk about what your partner actually needs, because I think that once
you understand this, things may click.
And I think it's really important to note that just because you will have awareness
does not mean that the implementation of this is easy.
But we got to start somewhere. Back to Dan Siegel and his work on interpersonal
neurobiology. He introduces the idea of co-regulation.
So the way that our nervous systems are wired to sync with people around us. Think about a baby.
A baby can't calm itself down, so it borrows its caregiver's nervous system.
The parent picks up the baby, it rocks it, hums softly, and the baby's nervous system settles.
You can borrow my nervous system. We co-regulate. And what it's learning is
when I'm upset and someone calm shows up, I'm okay.
So that doesn't stop when we grow up. When we're stressed or flooded with emotion,
we look to the people closest to us for regulation.
Our nervous systems are constantly sending signals. Am I safe? Is this person with me?
It's also fascinating to think about the fact that if there wasn't a safe,
calm version of that parent in the home, then the familiar became, if I get upset,
that person gets more upset or that person shuts down and that just becomes the dance.
So, let me give an example, a couple of versions of the same moment.
So, let's say that there's a lady named Maria.
She comes home after learning that their car needs a couple of thousand bucks
in repairs and they had not budgeted for it.
She's stressed her chest tightens her thoughts
race so we have version a her husband james puts
down what he's doing he turns to face her he takes a breath
hey tell me what happened and as maria explains
he maintains eye contact sets his phone down his body stays relaxed he doesn't
interrupt and after she finishes he says that's a lot and i appreciate you sharing
that and i can only imagine how stressful that is pause we figured out many
things before we can do this let's sit down after dinner and we'll take a look at it together.
Maria notices her breathing has slowed. The panic has softened.
He didn't pretend the problem didn't exist, but his steadiness helped her nervous system settle.
He didn't have all the answers, but they could figure it out together.
He stayed at the stove and now they can think clearly together.
Now let's look at option B. Maria comes to him with the same information.
James' body immediately tenses.
Can't hold back. And he says, are you serious? I told you we should have taken
it to my guy. Now her heart rate spikes.
He turns away, just turns to start scrolling his phone. She follows him down the hall.
Please don't shut down. We have to do something about this. Her nervous system
is now chasing connection.
His withdrawal feels threatening. And then he experiences her intensity is overwhelming,
which then makes him continue to retreat.
And they've entered the classic pursuer withdrawal cycle, both more activated
than when it started. The problem's unsolved.
The injury to the relationship has been added with this financial stress and
what they're training the relationship and teaching it is that we can't talk
about finances and it's going to be bad. So buckle up and come in big.
When your partner shares something difficult, their nervous system is activated.
They're looking to you subconsciously. Maybe they're aware of it.
More biologically is how they're looking to you for help regulating.
And if you stay calm and present, your regulated nervous system can actually help calm theirs.
Your steadiness can become contagious. But if you rush to fix,
even if that sounds like the right mouth noises, your nervous system communicates
something that I'm sure you're not intending.
I can't even handle your distress. I need it to stop. And instead of settling,
then they escalate because the person who was supposed to help them feel safe
just signaled, hey, your feelings are too much or the way that you're handling
this is wrong. And I need you to do this thing that I'm saying. No questions asked.
So what do you do differently? If you've listened to the podcast for a while,
you've maybe heard me talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation.
And it's a framework that I developed based on Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy work.
So a very quick review, you've got a pre-pillar of separating observation from judgment.
If my partner walks by me and they are just looking at their phone and they
don't say anything, that's an observation.
The judgment might be, they are obviously mad at me, but we don't know that.
So you separate the observation from the judgment.
That leads to pillar one, which is essentially assuming good intentions.
There's a reason why people do what they do.
And I don't believe inherently that people wake up and think,
how can I hurt my partner?
The second pillar is pretty important. Don't tell other people that they're
wrong or you don't believe them or that's not how it happened.
Even if you think they're wrong and you don't think that's how it happened and
you don't believe them because we're going to stay in the conversation,
which then leads to pillar three, ask questions before you make comments.
And then pillar four, stay present. Don't go into a victim mode.
And today I think I want to spend more time on pillar three,
questions before comments.
This is the antidote to this empathy dash.
The core principle here is your job in a connected conversation is not to respond.
It's to understand. We'll get to the response later.
And you understand by asking genuinely curious questions, not making assumptions,
not assuming, no, I know what you're going to say.
Just humor me because you don't actually know unless I guess maybe if you are
literally a mind reader, but asking genuinely curious questions,
not leading questions, not, okay, I hear you. have you thought about doing this?
So that does sound like a question. You could even put a question mark after
it. That's more of a comment dressed up in a disguise.
So let's go back to Sarah, whose boss dismissed her presentation.
So instead of jumping to solutions, what if Mark had stayed curious?
Sarah, my boss dismissed my presentation in front of everybody.
Mark, oh man, she dismissed it in front of everybody. That sounds awful.
Sarah said, I spent two weeks on that. And Mark said, hey, what was going through
your mind when that happened?
And I want to pause and say, when you start doing this, and it's,
if it's something that you haven't done before, I can imagine you can listen
to this question that Mark just asked, what was going through your mind when it happened?
And if you're not used to a genuinely curious version of your partner,
it's going to sound like what was going through your mind when it happened?
Like you must, it must've been wrong. It must've been ridiculous.
And this dips into the emotional immaturity pool. If I feel it,
if I think it, it must be true.
And that's a trap to fall into because at some point I have to believe what the person's saying.
If I hear that, what was going through your mind when it happened?
And if I even said, hey, man, I just have to bring awareness to this.
I am assuming good intentions. I'm not telling you that what you're trying to
do is wrong. But what I am going to share with you is that feels to me judgy
or like you have an agenda.
And if the person asking the question now has this amazing opportunity to self-confront
and say, okay, thank you for bringing that to my awareness.
Quick check. I'm aware that I'm not being manipulative, but I can appreciate what you're saying.
That would be hard if you felt like I was. And maybe even I know that I've been
manipulative in the past, but that's a topic for a whole other podcast.
So back to Mark. Mark says, hey, what was going through your mind when it happened?
Genuinely curious. Then Sarah, having trust that we're having a connected moment
here, a connected conversation says, I just froze. I just, I felt so dumb.
It was almost like maybe my ideas aren't as good as I thought.
Then Mark followed up with, is that something you've worried about?
Tell me about that. You don't feel like your ideas are good enough.
Sarah pauses. She's like, yeah, no, actually, yeah. I've been feeling that way a lot.
And now they're getting somewhere real, true intimacy, knowing each other,
not just talking about scheduling or the kids, talking about Sarah's self-doubt.
And that's what she needed to process. And Mark never would have gotten there
if he had jumped to solutions after one empathetic sentence.
That's the part I love about being a couples therapist is when you can finally
get to this point, there's a lot there that we may not even know about ourselves,
but even if we know it, we may not feel safe enough to share it.
Another example, David, the dad feeling disconnected. So instead of Rachel jumping
to, we'll plan something fun. What if she got curious?
David's saying, man, the kids would rather be on their phones and talk to me.
Rachel, gosh, it sounds like you, it feels like you're competing with their
phones and he said yeah no i am and i think i'm losing.
And again, Rachel may want to say, well, me too. Or yeah, this is kids these days. Nope.
She says, what does that feel like when you, when you try and they just give
that one word answer? What's that like for you?
David says, like, I don't even matter. Like, I'm just the guy who pays for things.
And then Rachel says, I appreciate you sharing that. How long have you felt that way?
And David months, maybe, I don't know. I never even would let myself think about
it because I will collapse into shame.
And Rachel says, that sounds really lonely.
David's eyes get a little bit wet. And he said, it is. It really is.
I appreciate you even just acknowledging that.
Rachel didn't fix anything. She didn't solve the teenager problem,
but David feels felt. He's not alone with this pain anymore.
So I want to give you something concrete to try this week and stay with the
theme today. Let's call it staying at the stove.
So when your partner shares something hard and you touch the stove with their
emotion and you pull back and you typically then will dash to these solutions or positivity.
What I would love for you to try is to practice staying at the stove just a
little bit longer, not forever, not until you're burned, just a little longer
than is comfortable because growth comes from discomfort.
So here's something to try, and I'm going to call it the three before one rule, three before one.
The next time your partner shares something difficult, offer three empathetic
responses before anything else, before you even try to offer advice,
before you get to solutions, before you are giving them the just look on the bright side.
Type of response. But here's what those three empathetic responses are.
Response number one, try to reflect back what you heard.
Simple mirroring. Show them that their words landed. Man, I hear that you were
frustrated or it sounds like you didn't feel like you were given a fair shake.
Response two, ask a curious question. Do your best to go deeper into their experience.
Hey, tell me more about that.
What was that like? Have you ever felt that way before? How long have you felt
that way in response three which i think is probably the most important.
Stay silent and let them continue. Just wait and let there be space.
So let's go to the example of work stress. Say that your wife comes home.
I'm so frustrated. My coworker took credit again for my idea.
Old pattern, the empathy dash.
Man, that's annoying. Have you talked to your manager about it?
I think you really need to document this stuff. That's probably what you should do.
New pattern. Three before one. Reflect. Wait, she took credit for your idea
in front of everybody? Wife. Yeah, she acted like it was totally her thing.
Curious question. Oh man, what were you thinking then? What was going through
your head when that happened?
Wife, I was so mad. But honestly, I was also kind of embarrassed.
Should I have spoken up? But I didn't even know how.
Stay silent. Let her continue. And she says, you know, I think what really bothers
me is this has happened before.
It's not like it's the first time. And I keep not saying anything.
And then I just resent her more. So now you're getting something deeper.
Her pattern of not speaking up. Her fear of conflict.
She got there herself because you gave her space.
Go back to this idea of being overwhelmed as a parent. Your husband says,
man, I feel like I'm the only one who disciplines the kids.
You're always the fun one. I'm the bad guy. The old pattern, that's not true.
I discipline them too. Remember last week when I took away the iPad? New pattern.
Man, so do you feel like you're always the heavy? Husband, yeah.
And they go run into you and I'm the big jerk.
Then curious question. Tell me what that's like. What does that feel like?
Or give me some examples of that. Help me understand. Tell me more.
And the husband, it hurts. It feels like they don't even like me. Stay silent.
Husband. I don't know. I think I'm starting to be scared that I'm becoming my
dad. And I never thought I would be my dad. And that's what he would do for me.
He was a strict one and I resented him for it. I never wanted to be that guy.
But now I see my kids looking at me the same way.
There's, that's the real connection. That's intimacy. And he's not asking you to discipline more.
He's afraid of losing his kids' love, but you never would have gotten there
if you defended yourself after his first sentence.
So after all three responses, you may not even need to offer anything else.
And if they want your input, maybe they'll ask or you can offer, but not before.
And I do want to address something that might be coming up. And I hear this
a lot from partners who've been doing most of the repair work.
Okay, I get it. Stay present, ask questions, don't rush to fix. But what about me?
I'm doing all this work and my partner never even acknowledges it.
Don't I deserve recognition?
I'd worked with a husband who had been reading books and listening to podcasts
and really trying to show up differently. And after a few weeks,
he told me, I swear she seems more mad at me than ever before.
And I don't understand that. How does that make sense? And I can see his exhaustion and it was genuine.
Another client, a wife, once said to me, I have been biting my tongue,
staying curious, like you said, but he never notices.
It's not like he turns back around and asks me questions and it makes me want to stop trying.
My answer, oh man, oh yeah, of course, I can understand why you would want your
effort seen. That is a legitimate need.
But then here's the tricky part. If you're only staying present because you're
hoping that your partner will notice, then it's a good start,
but it's not actual presence. That's more of a transaction.
And if we go back to the concepts of co-regulation, our nervous systems are
talking to each other, your partner can feel the difference.
This is where differentiation comes in. The ability to hold onto yourself while
in proximity to someone important to you.
A differentiated person can say,
I think I showed up well in that conversation and I feel good about it.
They don't need their partner to confirm it, but don't get me wrong, it would be nice.
But they're not destabilized by the absence of that recognition,
that validation. And here's what's wild.
The less you need the external validation, the more your partner will actually
see you because you're not clouding the interaction with this neediness,
this clinginess, this just anxious energy.
You're just there and you're grounded and you're present.
That's what creates safety. You absolutely deserve to be able to express yourself
and even have needs met. But the starting point is learning to show up because
it's the right thing to do, not because you're guaranteed a reward.
And one more thing. Sometimes when your partner shares something hard and it's
hard for you too, maybe they're sharing something about you and even a way that you hurt them.
Now your adaptive child is activated. Your brain is screaming,
defend yourself, fix the facts, correct them.
But like, let's take the example of a husband using the three before one.
Here's his wife say, I feel like you never prioritize me. You choose work over me and the kids.
Everything in him wants to debate the word never. But if he does,
the conversation's over.
Because now they're debating facts instead of connecting. A wife practicing
curiosity hears, sometimes you're more like my mother than my wife.
The urge to counteract would be intense. But if she goes there,
you'll most likely stop bringing up things that are vulnerable to her again.
So what do you do when you're the one getting triggered?
Notice your body. Are your shoulders tensing? Is your jaw clenching?
Is your heart rate up? That's your nervous system starting to get into fight
or flight mode. And it's normal.
It's not a flaw. It's a survival instinct.
It's important to take a breath literally in through the nose and out through the mouth.
And ideally, a longer breath out through the mouth. This activates the parasympathetic
nervous system, your rest and digest system. And it helps bring you back online.
Remember, the goal is not to win, not to be right. It's to understand,
to let your partner feel it, to be able to hold two things at once.
This is hard to hear and there might be some truth in it.
I want to defend myself and my partner needs me to listen right now.
That's emotional maturity in action. Your wise adult is starting to show up,
even when your adaptive child is screaming.
And you're not going to do it perfectly. I don't do it perfectly.
And that isn't the goal even. It's just to continue to do it and show up.
Because every time you stay a little longer, every time you catch yourself before
you do the empathy dash, you're training your nervous system.
You're creating these new neural pathways. And over time, I promise it does get easier.
Not easy, but easier. And if you've been doing this empathy dash,
I want you to know you're not broken. You're human.
Because it's the first time you've gone through life is you in this relationship
with this partner and you haven't done this before.
None of us have. And that urge to fix and to solve and to make the hard feeling
stop was a brilliant one at one time.
It kept you safe, but it was also really performative.
Now you get to learn something new.
Staying present with somebody's pain is one of the most profound gifts that
you can give your presence, not your solutions.
That's what your partner actually needs. And the discomfort of being at that
stove temporarily, maybe within range of the heat, that the connection you build by staying.
That is training the nervous system and that lasts. So this week,
try this three before one.
When your partner shares something hard, catch yourself, reflect what you heard,
ask a curious question, stay silent and let them continue and notice what happens.
Not just to them, to you.
Because when people stop dashing away and they start staying, things shift.
And that's the beginning of rebuilding trust and your connection deepens and
your partner starts to feel something they may not have felt in a long time.
I'm seen, understood, felt, they have felt, felt, but they don't feel perfection.
It's just staying a little bit longer than you did before, letting them have
their thunder and you don't need to steal it.
You'll have an opportunity to share your own experiences, your own thunder at
some point as well, but it will take patience and it will take practice and
you're not going to be perfect at it.
And when you fall off that proverbial horse, then it could hurt,
but you're going to get up and you're going to do it again and you're going
to get pretty darn good at writing.
But I do know that this is a model that works and it's normal and natural to
yeah, but it and to think of all the reasons why it wouldn't because that will keep you where you are.
And that is pretty familiar, even if it doesn't feel good.
As always, reach out. If you want to talk more about this, contact at TonyOverbay.com.
If this episode resonated, I would love for you to share it with somebody who might need to hear it.
And there will be a lot of this kind
of content and more in my magnetic marriage reboot so to get on the wait list
go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic and i cannot wait to talk to you next time on
the compressed emotions flying
past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's.